Oral History Transcription with Suzanne E.

Tallichet
Coal Mining Women and Gender Roles in Appalachia
Taken October 28th 2014 by Maggie K. Smith at Morehead State University

S- Sure, I was born and raised; well I was born in Washington D.C. and grew up outside of D.C in Fairfax
County Virginia. I remember that when I was in high school the first time We were just running around in
somebodys car and we happened to go near Bull Run Battlefield, and we were headed toward well we
were on Robert E. Lee Highway headed toward Manassas, We were out in the sticks. I remember we
came up over this rise and I saw the mountains in the distance, and like I was saying earlier, I didnt just, I
saw them. I didnt just look at them, I saw them for the first time and I really felt sort of very drawn to
them and had one of them Oh my gosh moments where your jaw drops a little bit and you dont even
realize your jaw just dropped. So, I think ever since then and my mother is a native Pennsylvanian and
grew up in a lot of small rural towns and the mountains. Williams Port was a place she really appreciated
being and thats way in the mountains. She talked about hiking in the mountains. So I think that even
though I grew up in an Urban-Metro environment I didnt appreciate it that metro environment. I always
said that if I go live somewhere as an adult it wont be here (Chuckles); it wont be in Fairfax County. So
you know, its, thats I really dont have much of an Appalachian heritage beyond that. I found out that
way back in my family tree in a town in Virginia called Roane R-O-A-N-E, Roane County and I had
some distant relative who was a pioneer there so I bet everybody, practically all of us can say that. So, but
that was an exciting kind of thing and I though ohhh I wonder if Im a throwback but who knows.
M-Those deep roots just keep running through you regardless

S-Well you know that when I worked in D.C for a year after I got my masters degree in journalism. I had
to go on a business trip toI believe it was Wisconsin. I got off the plane and I looked and the terrain
was as flat as this table and I almost felt like I was going to vomit
(Laughter)
S-I thought, you know Im gonna be sick and it was a mental sick, like wheres are the Mountains, you
know like there were something wrong with this place. So, It really didnt feel ill, I just didnt feel at ease
that would be the best way to describe it though since there was nothing to look at, It was just flat
M- I believe it they kind of nessle you and hold you
S-Well yeah and they kind of draw you. You know if youve ever looked at a gap, where you have a ridge
and a ridge and then another ridge and you zig-zag through it, you wonder alright whats on the other side
of this and whats on the other side of this. And you know Ive done some hiking where you go up to the
top to see whats at the top and its another ridge. But, you know I use that as a metaphor for life, you
know you get up at the top of one ridge and you better believe theres going to be another, somethin else
to be done or to be accomplished but you know you never conquer you just learn to live with it.
M- And you talk about that also in this, (points to book) about how they adapted as women within those
mines.
S- Right, theyve found there, theyve made their niche. You know they created their niche. And Ill tell
you one thing, you have a question down here that talks about something being uncomfortable, was
asking these women who I knew had so much to overcome by just working in an underground coal mine
was asking them, I found other ways to ask them instead of being direct why they hadnt moved up.
Because there are 5 job grades theres a grade 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all running machinery and
you make more and theres more responsibility and more authority and therefore status among your coworkers. General inside labor is an unskilled job that a lot of women got stuck in and to some extent I

think internalized the idea that thats all they could do therefore they stayed or really felt, I dont want to
touch the machinery, Im scared, they really got intimidated by the machinery. While other women
said, Oh my Dad told me, well showed me how to run a tractor one time, its just like running a tractor
Ya know so, I had a variety some even said well you know I tried to move ahead and I got stopped and
those, out of all the stories, Id say that maybe about a quarter of the women said No, I wanted a grade
2,3,4,5 job and said I got stopped and heres how they did it and how they done me And to me that
was a discrimination story. But there were other stories where women just said Hey I am down there and
Im just happy to be making the money Im making. And its hard and I come home dirty and tired but I
get that paycheck and its all worth it.
5:00 M-How did the Union play into that?
S-The Union played into that by really doing much of nothing. Cause I remember one woman, when I
went to solicit the interview, I asked her in the bath house and she yeah come on over to my place and
before I could even get in and get paperwork done and get the tape recorder on, she was mad as hell, she
was YOU COME ON IN HERE AND ILL TELL YOU WHATS GOING ON DOWN THERE! I was
fumbling for the tape recorder, wait a min can you get mad all over again. She was talking about how she
had a grievance wasnt about moving ahead, it was about keeping her job higher than grade one. She
wasnt mad at the company, she expected the company to do her the way they were doing her. My union
brothers just sat there and did nothing. Theyre supposed to defend me the way they would a man. And
they didnt. They were passive. It wasnt what they did to the women; it was what they didnt do for
them. The mine superintendent, I liked the guy, he was a UK grad with masters degree. Education
doesnt wipe out racial and gender and class bias. I remember he made a comment that I will never forget.
I smiled but it wasnt because I liked what he said it was because I wanted him to say more. I asked him
why the women are segregated into these lower job ranks because I found that all across the country.
Because I had a bureau mine set that showed women were being segregated and somehow left in those
entry level jobs long after the men that came in with them. And it was happening at his coalmine. And I

asked him why it was happening. And he said that this was just a natural settling of skills. And that word
natural. You have to watch out for that word. We define whats natural so, what is really natural? Well
its by social definition. Anyway, but when he said that. So you know if the superintendent was going to
say that, then he conveyed that to managerial staff and Im sure the forum had the idea that women are
good for this and arent good for that. So yeah. Those are the stories that women said I was kept from
moving forward. Because there are other women, an older woman in particular who said Im stay where
Im at because I know what Im doing but even embedded in that was an implicit and if I ever tried to
move ahead and didnt know what is was doing they let me know about it. I had another woman say that.
If youre a woman and you get a better job and you screw up like everyone else screws up theyll let you
know about it. I said more so than a man, well sometimes. Not all the time. It just depended on who all
was around, so. You know what was interesting? The younger men gave the women a harder time than
the older men. The younger men were much more threating. The older men, well ya know you remind
me of my daughter and shes hard headed. So come on down here. I dont want ya getting hurt while Im
around because theyll blame it on me. So here let me show you how its done. Then there were other
older men, their form of harassment was the silent treatment. They just pretended like the women werent
even there. And in a coalmine communication is everything. And in most jobs communication is very
important anyhow. I mean they just didnt say anything to them. Then among the younger men there were
two sets. As well. The younger men who were used to working with women said so, my mother works. I
worked in a grocery store with women; I worked in a gas station with women and now I work in a
coalmine with women. BIG DEAL. But then there was the element, the silent treatment. But the level
of harassment, trick and work related hostility which is what I called it in the book. Sometimes wasnt
sexual at all. It had nothing to do with it. It was just being mean. Well beyond hazing, ya know what I
mean? The younger men were little boys masquerading as men underground. Ya know. Is best I can put
it. Sending a new person of whether they sent off to a new job they were told to look for a Teflon shovel.
There is no such thing of course. I mean thats hazing. They do that stuff. Shoot. I had someone try to do
that to me the other day. Im having an addition built on the back of my house and Im good friends with

the guy whos doing it. And he said Sue, go find me a something or another. And I said yea yeah you
go find one. And he just laughed. And thats just a joke, a harmless joke. Matter a fact people dont joke
with people they dont like. So ya know? Anyway, but that didnt make me uncomfortable, to say to a
woman who had to go through what she had to go through to get the job in the first place. And then here I
am this white-collared, college educated, I dont know, newbie. I didnt want to be disrespectful in any
way so I found other ways to ask it. To say, Well gee, why havent you moved up. I was implying that
there was something wrong with him. I had to find diplomatic ways to say have you ever thought of
moving ahead? You seem like you know what youre doing. That was usually the way did it.
10:07 M- Was any of the women you ever interviewed against being interviewed that didnt want to talk
about it?
S- There was one instance where this woman didnt want to talk to me. She was not really very good
friends with any of the other women. She had been accused one time of taking whatever union secrets
they had back to the company and I think that she had actually started to date a boss, then the boss
divorced his wife then married her. She was quite the outcast, but she compensated for it by things they
felt were under-handed, and whether it was real or not at least it was perceived she was taking union
secrets back, and as one woman put it, to the extent we have any secrets, ya know because the union was
very weak at this point, and even the 90s. Do ya want me to keep going through? Its amazing how much
of this comes back to you when it is recalled. Alright, number two, how did I get interested in the history
of coalmining women not that mind jumping around here. When I was living at state college I remember I
was living in a house. I lived there for two years, and the second year I lived there in a house full of
bluegrass pickers. And so, it was a nice place to live. I remember I was coming down the stairs one
morning and the newspaper was on the front porch and I looked down and on the center of the daily times
I was like oh my God the first woman coalminer killed in a coalmine. And I thought DAMN! And I
picked it up and started reading it and I couldnt put it down, and again it was like the mountains, and
Marilyn Macuschur was her name. She got killed in a roof fall. She had be a roof-bolters helper, and a

roof-bolter bolts the top, ya know in a coalmine after ya come through, there is the roof and the roof has a
slab of rock and another slab of rock and so that first slab doesnt fall down they put roof-bolts, it is like a
checkered board ceiling and by federal law there are four foots squares with these big nuts and a washer
and it is supposed to hold the roof up. They are usually underneath something they are underneath a roof
on their machine or a metal roof on their machine. So if it falls on them theyre usually covered but their
assistant isnt always covered. Anyway, God, I remember the roof-bolters name. His name was Buck
Cockjack. And Buck was roof bolting and Marilyn was helping him and she looked up and saw the roof
falling and she yelled and he ran. And she didnt get out fast enough and it fell on her and killed her.
What killed me was Buck said well if she had been a man shed been faster and shed gotten outta there.
But then he turns around and he says but maybe she slowed down to make sure I made it. Well what is it?
If shed a male anatomy shed been faster? I mean I know women that are pretty quick, right? What did
that have to do with it? But then he said that he felt almost like he had survival guilt. He said maybe she
paused to maybe see if I was going to make it. Maybe Im the reason she is dead. It haunted me. It
bothered me. Because on the one hand, he said the typical kind of sexist, WELL IF SHED BEEN A
MAN SHE WOULDNT BE DEAD! and on the other hand it was more reflective in his second
comment when he said my god am I the reason she is dead? Did she stop to make sure I made it out and
that is why she didnt make it herself? Did she sacrifice herself for me? And ya know that story stuck and
I thought ya know if I ever get PHD, I had no plans to go on, I thought nah Ive had enough of school for
right now, but when I was working in DC, I thought get me the hell out of here. Ya know that Meryl
Haggard song Big City? That came out about that same time when I was working in DC and I used to go
around humming that all the time. Just get me outta here I hate it. I always thought if I went back I would
do my dissertation on women coalminers. And in academia there is this bias that I really cant stand it was
the bias that there was some kind of, non-manual labor is superior to manual labor. And why in the world
would you want to study people who work in factory or work in a coalmine? Well I ran into a little bit of
that. There was one woman in particular, and she had her own personal issues, but when I said I wanted to
study women coalminers, well she said there arent any! I dont know why you want to do that. Whoa ho

whoa. Youre out of touch. Youre way out of touch. She was actually supposed to be my dissertation
chair and I said C-ya. That got me into some hot water too but I got past it.
16:00 M- Me and Kerstin talk about coal mining all that time and I go to the KFTC meetings every
Monday at the Appalachian center because I work there and I did not know that there were ever women
coalminers. At all. When our librarian at the Appalachian center threw this book and another book at me,
S- Marat Moore?
M- YES! And I thought that was crazy that they are just dusted under the rug like that.
S- Yeah, still. But I ran into Marat Moore at the Appalachian meetings a couple years back when they
were in Indiana and the University of Pennsylvania and we are all looking a little older. That oral history
she did was amazing. It was different from mine in that, and she was actually the one that told me about
this sample, this group of women at this large coalmine in West Virginia. She was the one that said try
this company, try this coalmine. There are a lot of woman. And I mean I am going to pat myself on the
back just a little bit then quit. There was a lot people, well there was a masters degree done on it at the
University of Tennessee. And woman interviewed women at this mine and at this mine and at this mine.
But nobody had interviewed woman all working at the same mine. She you could hear about how the
woman felt about each other, how they felt about the men, how they felt about the male foreman, in
addition to it all being one little community. And Marat's is great in that it span not just woman miners
but the wives of miners that were supper active in the union and pioneers throughout history. Hers is
much more historical than mine. But, I wrote my book but I really appreciate Marats book. I appreciate
Marat more than shell ever know.
M- With the front cover of your book these arent the women are they?
S- No they are not. Because of the human subjects issue, and you know that. I was very careful not to
name the company and not to name the coalmine. And I never will. But no, thats an Earl Dotter

photograph and those three women I think that was taken back in the 80s. And Penn state press put that
cover on there. And those are not the three women. I havent even met those three women. Except years
later after the book was published, I got a phone, this was about ten years ago and it was one of the
women on the cover of the book. She said I just saw a book you wrote and you put me on the cover.
Thanks. Youre welcome I said. And Ive seen that picture and thats one of my favorite pictures and I
talked to the guy at Penn state press and he was like yeah yeah this will really work yeah. So we just
slapped that on there, but those are not the women we interviewed.
M- I figured that would be a question that would come up with your book.
20:00 S- Yeah it has once or twice before. But yeah you cant, thats a huge human subject issue. That
entire woman had pseudonyms. Any of the women I interviewed and they read the book theyd probably
laugh at some of the pseudonym, because there was woman in particular that was very attractive and
always being accused and maybe some of it was well founded. But yeah, she was flirting with the men to
get this and to get that. Ya know what I mean? Well you know that Dolly Parton song Jolene? Uh huh.
Well her pseudonym was Jolene. See I just tried to adapt to names that I knew and that were relevant to
the women I was interviewing. And I know that the other women I interviewed would get a kick out of
knowing that her pseudonym was Jolene that the lyrics in the song, Dont take my man. Alright your
third question about exposing the history of mining women affecting our gender roles. Ya know it is
kinda sad because what you just said about the women not getting their spot in history, I still think thats
true. There is academic work on police women. There is academic work on women in forestry but all that
stuff is old. It is like twenty years old. And there was a woman at Antioch convention that was doing a
PHD that wanted me to be on her committee. And she was doing a literature review of women in nontraditional roles. And she said like it all evaporated. I think they didnt show them because of the United
Labor because they were mostly male. And if you look at how the mangers and how they let a lot of work
related hostility go on I think because managers sorta bought out the lower ranking men, as long as they
had someone that could have power over. So it was like if I was a manager it was kinda like me and you

are men and if you want harass them go ahead they deserve it here anyway. And I think it gave the male
minors a sense of power over somebody. As long as I have someone that I have to lord it over I dont
mind if you lord it over me. So they were sorta bought out by whatever gender power they had over the
women by men who out-classed them. A lot of the woman saw this and a lot of the male foreman saddle
up to and buddy up to the males. And it takes a really smart and secure coalminer to say hey I see what
youre doing here. And I have more in common with my coalmining worker than I do with you or the
company and Im a minor and she is a minor so they divided and conquered here and some of the men
saw this happening and they verbalized it. It wasnt a divide and conquer device and as gender as the
slicer or the ax they used to split apart. To get back to your question, I feel like a lot of the male managers
felt like they didnt belong there. Im just doing this because the government is telling me to and thats
what the superintendent told me. See, there was a law suit back in the 70s and a lot of women had been
denied employment as they had every right to and the coalmines that had federal contracts violated those
federal contracts when they denied perfectly capable and perfectly healthy women mining jobs which
they had done. So a woman named Betty Jo Hall took up an action suit and won. A lot of woman, a year
earlier before the suit was won say that they would get a whole year back of wages and as well as the job.
So, when they went walking into those mines, some of those men, I can understand why if I was a male
coalminer here comes this woman who got all this back pay and now the job.
25:00 M- And you been working your ass off in the mines
S- That was something the women had to overcome also. The male superintendent around me at the time
and he was also hiring at the same time and he said he felt like the government took his power to hire and
fire away when they said you will hire this many women because you have federal contracts. So he felt
that he had been emasculated or something. They had somehow diminished his authority in the
workplace. And he said in his defense he said there were women who never had the idea of being a
coalminer all of a sudden came in and said you have to hire me because government said so. And that
made it difficult on the women that were actually interested in mining and the women who were still

mining. Keepers he called them. The ones he appreciated. They didnt go underground looking for a
husband a sugar daddy or any of this and they didnt go underground for any big adventure they actually
wanted to be coalminer for ten, twenty, thirty years.
M- Do you think they wanted to be a coalminer because it was a part of their history and their heritage?
S-I think their dads had been coalminers and they heard about while growing up and there was just
something about and it was a family legacy. Thats why when I see these coal plates on cars that arent
these big black shiny trucks but these little hybrid cars it is indicative that this person isnt floating in
money and I realized that this person dad, brother, uncle, somebody was a coalminer and it is the heritage
that these companies are playing into. There is woman named Shannon Bell who has done a whole lot of
good on the industries ideologies. That they played people of by using these ideologies. It is the research I
that I have read that makes me go damn! I wish Id done that. Oh she is at UK. She was at Oregon and got
her degree at Oregon and now she is at UK. She has done a number of good stuff. She really lays it all
and she is at UK so. So I guess she doesnt mind putting herself out there so yeah.
M- I think you all took a big social risk in general about writing about a topic that you didnt whether or
not it would be accepted by the people or not.
S- Thats just too damn bad. Im sorry. And after I met these women I felt like reasonability to them and a
commitment to them. Cause when I asked them for an interview they said you want to talked to me about
my dirty old jo You wanna talk to me, ME? Any said yeah, you dont realize that youve made history.
OH GET OUTTA HERE!! I said no no you dont realize youre here every day underground in the
coalmines. You dont see what I see out there. REALLY?!?! Really. So I thought wow humility like that.
Yeah and again the term is spotlight, they needed to be spotlighted, and Marat Moore knew this too.
Thats something Marat and I shared. But yeah I think very highly of Marat.
M- I think that my, well I have to make a website for this and your interview is going to be on the website
and I am going to send you the link to it.

S- ME REALLY?!?!?!
M- Im gonna send you the link to it after I get finished but I think just even that little class project is very
progressive in getting the word out there so.
S- And ya know Appalachian women have been in non-traditional roles for a long, long time. There was a
woman, not that I interviewed but a woman I read about that, because I did a lot prep work. I went to
women coalmining conferences, I learned the slang. I did all kinds of stuff. I mean I did my homework
before I went underground. When I went underground I took a tour of underground literally. And I was
talking about doing penny top and doing this and doing that. And the guy that was with me turned and
looked at me and said how do you know all those words. And I looked at him and I said Ive talked to a
lot of coalminers. And he said really? And I said yeah women coalminers. But anyway getting back to
the, Appalachian women have been more non-traditional especially working class. And especially not the
wives of mine superintendents. There was this woman, I cant remember her name right now, but she was
talking about her husband leaving her, and a lot of women were divorced or their husbands were disable
that is why they were going in the mines. And she was talking about going down to a creek with two or
three kids that were real young, with a pail of diapers and the whole bit to wash. And also to bring water
back. And she said if I can lug those young-ins down there and I can wash this pail of diapers and I can do
all this work, then I can work in a coalmine. Ive got the mental stability and the physical strength to work
in a coalmine, now put me to work. If you look at the roles that Appalachian women have had to play
especially rural Appalachian women. And rural women all across the country. Theyve worked and they
feel they a right to be heard. Appalachian women are more feminist than they realize, but I didnt bring up
the F word. I did not bring up the F word. It was like a red flag.
30:00 M- It is a red flag and Im from a progressive generation and it is still a red flag for me so I could
only a imagine what it would mean for generations that are older than I am.

S- But I would ask them about equal pay for work and they would respond well yes of course. And I
thought ok, were definitely getting dangerously close to being feminist here, but I never used words like
sexual harassment, feminist, discrimination. I ya know, instead of saying did any of the men ever sexually
harass you, I would say did you ever have any difficulties with the men. And some of the women about
thirty minutes into the interview when I would ask that question they would so no not really. And then
about an hour later they would say when I first started it was really rough, this guy did this and this guy
did that. They didnt really want to complain I think. Because Appalachian women arent complainers.
Not the rural working class Appalachian women. Now I can complain but nobody is listening so Im not
going to bother and waste my time and energy, so they just dont. And those women are the unsung
heroes. I mean they really are. I think we underplay gender. I think we are beginning to underplay race.
Ive got a manuscript on women in surface mining. And the woman who wrote it, her father was a surface
miner in the company and that is how she got her interviews. And she was saying there was no more
discrimination and she didnt know what all the fuss was about and blah blah blah. And she didnt
understand the whole gender issues and that things had changed. I read that manuscript and I thought
about race. And I wrote it is people like you that say just because he have a bi-racial president that means
that we no longer have bi-racial issues in America. Her fallacies about gender issues, oh well women are
working beside men and theyre working in the surface mines out west. And she kinda attacked
Appalachia. She said I dont know what is wrong with Appalachia people but ew ew ew. Then I couldnt
figure out why the publisher gave this to me to read. I thought maybe they didnt screen it and I wrote you
werent there. Appalachia is a different place and you cant be there for real anyhow. And again you think
because you dont see it doesnt exist. Her dad worked for the company and he knew all the people she
was interviewing, I mean how much more bias do you need. She needs to go to another coalmine where
nobody knows her and see if she gets the same result. I mean it was made way too easy for her. Well
anyhow, we have gender issues right here and we dont even see em. And obviously we have some
serious racial issues in this country. And I mean having an African American or women in a position of

power, doesnt mean that everything between here and here is all salt. Sorry. I get upset about that
because of this complacency that oh that was then and this is now
35:00 M- I think theyre worse. Some racial hate happened in Berea a couple of summers ago and a biracial couple had their car vandalized. And another bi-racial couple was kicked out of a church. That stuff
shouldnt happen. If our world is a better place than are these hate crimes going on and the gay
community is facing a lot of issues right now and with the fairness ordinance. There was actually an
article that was posted in the Berea paper where Berea is portrayed as a little piece of utopia. But when
youre in it, it is awful. There is community workers who have written this article in the paper about how
Berea students shouldnt be allowed to vote because we arent members of the community and it is their
conservative right to make sure all the conservative people get to the polls and vote and make sure our
students dont elect someone who is more free. And I am a conservative republican with liberal views
because I am from a progressive generation but, I think that is wrong and I think that is discrimination
against our college population.
S- Any voter suppression is wrong no matter who it is.
M- So our SGA is making a mission to write back to these people and tell them the history of voting and
how we our able to vote and the legal standing on the issue and also an emotional view on voting. I
personally support Berea so I dont think it is wrong.
S- You know the Eisenhower republicans were way more progressive, the Republican Party reminds me
of a buoy and an anchor and the tea party is the boat. And the tea party has drug this buoy and now it is
starting to drag the anchor along with it. At one time being a republican wasnt what it means now.
M- Also back in I cant remember what year they switched parties. The democrats were more
conservative. Older generations of my family identify as democrat but they arent democratic. I find it
completely ridiculous

S- They are starting to manipulate peoples consent in the voting booth and that is mostly cause by what
used to be a democrat is now a republican and vice versa.
M- And that is another labeling issue. Because we are required to label our political view so that we can
identify with them but that puts us in a box. Just like identifying as an African American or Caucasian or
whatever you want to be identified as puts you in a box. Me saying I am and Appalachian puts me in a
box
S- It does. And that is why when Silas House asked you to define Appalachia you say it in one word,
diversity. Or it is American. But that boxing a stereotyping is a tough thing but a lot of these women are
ran into that, because they told me, when of them is ran into something stupid down there. Then we all
end up paying for it socially speaking. We are all accountable for what another woman does. One of the
women literally said we are categorized. You know we are put in a box and maybe if we let them out of
that box maybe they would actually begin to shine.
M- Do you think that if you break out of your box that you lose a little piece of yourself?
S- No. Because it depends on how I am being labeled. Because if I am being boxed then I lose the right to
self-label. I think that when I came out if the box I have the opportunity to tell you things that you might
not find congruent. But this is me.
M- So it is about building yourself a box and not letting someone else build your box for you?
40:00 S- It is about being an individual if that is how you define. I lost a thought but it came back. If
people know I agree with them about gender and race, but when it comes to guns, I love my gun. I live on
four acres, Im by myself, I have a big black dog. But that doesnt do much as having a gun. Im not
afraid to of other animals. Just worried about people. Because weve had murder recently in Morehead.
My neighbors across the street who are older just go ADT. And I used to leave doors unlocked when I
would leave and go somewhere. But we have had trouble.

M-My Nan is 63 and she has always had a gun beside her bed.
S- And I dont think the government is trying to take my gun. But when I get around certain people, no
gun. You dont take machine gun hunting. And I dont have anything against people who hunt but if you
are going to hunt make sure you do it clean. Get off a clean shit and make sure you use every single bit of
it. And some hunters have a code of ethics that the follow. They need a gun to hunt like a rifle or a
shotgun or whatever. Sportsmen I have no problem with. They arent going to pick up a gun and do a
drive by.
M- If you are abusing a gun rights it is because you are a criminal.
S- Then they say if you have a gun and they have a gun then there is so much gun violence. If they have a
gun Id just like an even playing field. But there are people that you cant be around a say oh I have a .38
or oh I have a shotgun because they will stop talking and just turn around and walk away.
M- I like putting myself in really awkward situations like that because you actually gain a lot of
knowledge from it and 95% of friends are liberal and Im the solo republican. I took a peace and social
justice class and there was one other guy in there that enjoyed his company very much and we agreed on a
lot of things together. And then then we go paired up with people on other sides of the room so we had to
introduce ourselves and this girl well who in your family is not violent. And I said well my family is
really outspoken. And these were questions given to us by our professor so I told her that if being violent
is characterized by being loud and outspoken then my whole family is violent. I said that to her because I
was very offended by that question. That is a really loaded question and my family is very outspoken but I
dont think that classifies them as being violent. Then she asks me well how do you feel about gun rights?
And I said I have the same views on gun rights as you do. Then when she introduced me, she introduced
me as Maggie her family is violent and she loves guns. Then the whole class like white faced, then we got
into a conversation about nuclear weapons and I said if other countries have nuclear weapons then we
should have them.

S- Ya know the water boarding and all that? Do you know that we have been torturing and they have been
torturing people of war since way back during the revolutionary war. My parents were both military
officers in World War II. My mother was an office worker and my Father was a tank operator under
Patton and gets his leg shot off. And as a reward he walked into a CIA job while living in Budapest.
1949-51. The Nazis were driven out of Germany after WWII but communism was moving in and not the
kind that was written about, the kind that was put into practice. And the Hungarians begged to have the
Nazis back because the communists were horrible. Ive heard a lot of stories of torture and how they were
spied on and pictures were taken of them when they didnt know what was going on. They were there as
diplomats buts they were also there to collect information. There was a group of people who would make
fun of the people that were following them. And one morning they were going places and the same person
would be following them and then he would have at the guy following them and after that he disappeared
for and after he came back he was a different person. They tortured him. They taught him a lesson. To
believe that we shouldnt torture anyone but other countries are going to do it to our people? No I am
sorry, but I am not opposed to torturing. If you can make a guy feel like he is drowning and he is holding
the secrets to where a bomb is gonna go off and kill thousands of people the water board the bastard.
Make him think hes almost dead then hell talk. And well save how many people? But see I f were to
say that around you know who, Id keep quiet. It doesnt usually come up. But if it does come up I steer
away from it. Some of the women really appreciated the men when they stood up for them. The picture
isnt all the bad. Some of the men would get onto the other men about getting onto the women and a lot of
that settled down as time went by. I asked a woman what she thought the key to that was and she looked
at me and grinned and said well have gray in our hair now.
45:00 M- What was your favorite interview or something you found very enlightening?
S- When I would interview someone and they would call me back a week later telling me they forgot
about a certain thing they wanted to tell me in the interview. Then they would ask me again. So
sometimes I had repeat interviews. One thing that really upset was a certain woman had told me another

woman had been lying and I kind of suspected it because she blowing things way out of proportion. The
reason I knew that. There was this episode shed always refer to and I was smart enough to ask the other
women involved and the all shot it down and one woman said, well you know she has been known to
drugs from time to time right? So her credibility took a nose dive and I told myself I couldnt put a lot of
stock into some of the things she said that were phenomenal. Something else that was interesting was the
first time I interviewed the woman at the company, I had a secretary that was introducing me to all the
women and then after I had finished I was telling everyone goodbye, and she wanted to know who I
interviewed and I said I cant tell ya. There was one woman you was very vocal and see wore this
perfume because she was masking her own odors but she was very outspoken. They called her the
perfume lady. Her hygiene issues had nothing to do with gender issues and it is silly to even put the two
together. As I said the secretary was trying to find out who I interviewed and I finally said a lot of the
women on the list you gave me. In other words I told her I was not telling her, but I eventually had to tell
her that I wasnt going to tell her who I had spoken to. Then she straight up asked me if I had spoken to
the perfume lady. And according to the other women whose credibility was questionable, the secretary
asked her if she had spoken with me. And she was no longer working there but interviewed her anyhow.
He said they wanted to know. And they knew better. And that was a little shocking and also when the
company heard I was coming they added trainee positions which they hadnt done in 9-10 years. They
were making it look like they were making equal opportunities for women. And they wanted me to walk
away with a good view of the company so they would get recognized for it, but the thing was, I wasnt
going to use the companys name anyhow.
50:00 M- Did any of the secretaries of the company give you any difficulties?
S- No not really. I interviewed the superintendent in his office and he didnt want me to use a tape
recorder. This was after I had already started interviewing the women. Also, this was my first field
experience. So the superintendent called me and said come over so we can talk so you can get the right
impression of the company. And I said oh sure. And I thought why did you do that? Was there a wrong

impression I could get from the company? It was almost like what are you hiding. It was almost like he
was using a script and when you use script, usually you trying to divert the persons attention somewhere
else. Do you have issues? The first company I had relations with was Console and the reason I will say
their name is because I did not have agreement with them. Also they denied me from having interviews
with the women there. I didnt know this then but afterwards I was doing some research and back in the
mid 80s there had been a suit brought by the shoe making plant and it was a sexual harassment lawsuit.
And the guy I was talking to said well what are really after? And I told him. Their experiences, if they had
difficulties with the men. Then I called him back. No we have decided not to participate and I figured that
was probably why was because of the lawsuit. Sorry for taking so long. I promise this is the last thing. I
appreciate smart remarks and attitude. Some of the comebacks from a woman I talked to that worked in a
mine in Pennsylvania. she is the woman I pretested by questions with. Her name was Berenice
Donbrowsky. The first time man trips with three or four guys down into the darkness and she said one of
the men started to moan. She didnt say anything. Then he said ahh man Im getting a hard-on because
there is a woman around here, and she said well why dont you run it in reverse and shove it up your ass.
And they got onto her for her mouth underground. That was another thing a lot of the men would swear
but not when the women were around and they thought that if it wasnt good enough for them to hear I
wasnt good enough for them to say. One of the women said if I smash my thumb Im gonna let loose.
They had to get use to that. Another comeback that I can remember it was this harassment suit. This man
said to a women and the Shoe Maker mine, ya know, Id really like to get in your pants. And the woman
said what is a matter, youd shit yours?
55:00 M- A lot of men like smart ass women.
S- A lot of women have comebacks for the men when they talk to them. It is a part of identifying
yourself.

M- I think if you shoot the shit with someone on that level then you are likely to develop a personal
relationship with that person.
S- Without taking yourself too seriously. And there was this one woman and I really liked her a lot and if
there was one thing I could tell her to stop doing, like this one time this guy farted next to her and she
shouldve looked at him and made a smart-ass comment or something. But she gasped and screamed stop
that. The men knew what button to push to make her upset and she let them. Anything else?
M- No I think thats good