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Piano Forum > Piano Board > Miscellaneous > practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Pages: [1] Go Down PRINT Author Topic: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 (Read 1077 times) pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 on: January 09, 2007, 09:12:05 PM ok. here i am. printing out mazeppa #4 egads! three staves on page two i see.

first of all...somebody help me with page one. i see lots of arpeggiated double forte chords here. well, i just played them - and they're actually not that bad. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 09:13:57 PM next question: can somebody just give me the fingering for the cadenza part on the first page. i have limited time. i just want the best one.

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged nicco PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 09:50:23 PM ehmm...is anybody actually participating in this "competition"? Looks like susan is competing with herself. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged "Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche quantum PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 10:49:07 PM Go team susan!!!! Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #4 on: January 10, 2007, 01:55:16 AM what about iumonito, brahmsian, arensky, liszt-essence, nanabush, and a couple of others i thought?!

ok. here's my fingering for this cadenza. somebody try it and tell me yes or no:

rh starting on 'a' 123543211231235543212123412354321 (1st line)

(2nd line) 12312355432121234123543211231235543212123412354321

(3rd line) 12312345345314321321432132143213214321321432132

lh starting on 'a' 543123455432131123454543213212345

(2nd line) 543213112345454321321234554321321123454543213212345

(3rd line) 54321321431312341231234123123412312341231234

basically it's using a lot of slides from black to white notes with thumb to thumb and pinky to pinky. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #5 on: January 10, 2007, 02:50:24 PM any tips on the chopin ballade?

say - that thalberg-mozart piece is easy! i've done a lot of vocal stuff - so that isn't bad. but, wow - this chopin ballade is loooonng. but, very beautiful. can i just play half of it? ok. no. well...the first half will be good and the second bad.

now - who wants any help with the un sospiro. i had a teacher on this one and it worked out fantastic because it's like a little puzzle and when you have really good fingering - you can just whiz through this piece like nothing. i'm serious. this fingering is to die for (from jean-paul billaud). Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #6 on: January 10, 2007, 03:03:37 PM

apparently christina kiss plays this really well and she's been playing all liszt in nyc somewhere's. she's a very little lady - but apparently plays it very well.

ok. un sospiro (the sigh) or 'etude de concert no. 3'

first of all - you gotta have the 'wave.' that means you undulate with each arpeggio up and down and simultaneously gradually get louder on the second and third arpeggiation and softer on the fourth one again. this is hard to do until you 'get it.'

now, the fingering i have for the first two measures continues pretty much throughout unless you have another chord arpeggiated. it is:

lh 5321 rh 1245421 lh 1235 rh 1245421 lh ...

in the next section (the cantando - or singing voice line) the top notes can be taken variously by whatever fingers you like - but i tend to stick with '3.' as my teacher said - it is a strong finger and gives the 'singing' that you want.

now, when you get to the next page try

lh 5421 rh 1235321 ... next measure lh 5421 rh 124 crossover lh 3 rh 421 lh 1235321

rh 125 crossover lh 3 rh 521 lh 123

the next measure (measure 11) is really important to have a good fingering:

try in the rh 4 3 4 grace note 2 5 poco rit 3 4 3. the 3 ending on the a tempo (the switch from 4 to 2 on the grace note is helpful)

here's the reason: you can now take the rh thumb and play 1 to 2 on the Db and F on the last half of first beat of measure 11 (going up and down). similarly with th e 5 on the high F with the rh - you can now take the C, Gb and Ab with the rh 123 fingers (up and down).

try it! you'll like it. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #7 on: January 10, 2007, 06:51:55 PM con't. sorry about what i wrote here previously - as i got ahead of myself.

at measure 12 - you have patterns of seven sixteenth notes up and down (lh and rh alternating)

lh 5321 rh 1245421 lh 1235321 rh 1245421 lh 123

measure 13 lh 5321 rh 124 now HERE is the place to really be careful about timing. you have seven sixteenth notes in the left hand. when you want to place the second of the octave notes within that group of seven - wait until you have played three of the beats and then play the rh note fairly quickly. so the first groupof notes on beat two is LH (Ab) RH (F) RH (Db) LH (in treble clef high Ab).

i have the first of the sempre dolce grazioso melody as two notes with LH then two notes with RH 23 then two notes with LH 32 and then two notes with RH 23...

you can use a sort of modified 'rainbow' as you dance from the first of the two notes to the second. or, if you prefer - a straight across 'zip.' but, always timed to correspond AFTER the first three of seven arpeggiated notes (unless there are eight notes in the arpeggio later).

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #8 on: January 10, 2007, 06:53:41 PM

a very important note: always ALWAYS write the rh fingering above the notes and the lh fingering below.

this is for anyone who doesn't write that much fingering in their music. if you do it this way , you'll never get confused as to which hand takes what. when you are changing fingering from what the book has written - take a permanent black marker or a pencil and completely dot out the fingering so you won't be looking at two at once. that might get a bit confusing. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 07:10:15 PM now - for all this stuff i'm giving you -- i am hoping for some similar advice on the durn chopin ballade #4 which i've never worked. (i have however worked #2).

going on measure seventeen - well actually backtracking just a bit. notice in measure 14-16 you have mostly seven sixteenth note patterns. this means when you play the melody line octaves - you're going to wait for three of those sixteenth notes before you play the second higher note.

con't for measures 16 - 17. now measure 18 you can help 'set yourself up' for the arpeggios on beat three and four by playing the rh 123 ONLY the first time and coming back down on the F Db and Ab with 521. this sets you up for playing the modulated part with the Fb's.

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged le_poete_mourant PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #10 on: January 10, 2007, 07:16:05 PM who was in charge of picking these pieces anyway? doesn't seem very democratic to me. seems pretty ridiculous since only a handful of people here are going to be able to play them moderately well. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged "It is difficult to get news from poems, but men die miserably every day from lack of what is found there."

-- William Carlos Williams pianistimo

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 07:30:14 PM with this fingering ANYBODY can play un sospiro. maybe not in two weeks - but in three months you'll have figured out the most of it.

btw, i only have played two of the pieces (or so) on iumonitos list. i just printed out four pieces yesterday that i have never played. i like his list a lot because it is good repertoire for learning stuff. rhythms, and how to play vocal music even.

iumonito could be my teacher for as good as he picks repertoire. i really like everything so far - even though some of it is going to be hard. the chopin is pages and pages. i've never seen it in my life although i have heard it. i played another ballade. but i'm going to attempt as much as i can of it. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 08:21:36 PM measure 19 -the arpeggios go into groups of eight sixteenth notes. so you have approx. three sixteenth notes (or two to each triplet note until the next two beats (with groups of seven sixteenth notes) where you have slightly over three sixteenth notes to each triplet.

m 19 lh fingering: 5212 rh 1235 (crossover with lh 3) rh 5321 lh 1235421 rh 123 321 lh124

the hands cross over to play the triplets with first LH then RH then LH then RH - alternating.

measure 21: lh 53213121...(back down) 521321 fermata 32124

here, the rhythm of arpeggiation is SIX - so you have an equal two sixteenth notes per right hand note.

DRAW LINES DOWN THROUGH STAVE FROM RH TO LH TO SEE WHERE THEY FIT IN ARPEGGIATION. also - write in how many groups of notes you have (whether 8 or 7 or 6).

now - in measure 22 - take the first note you see after the treble clef shows up in bass clef (C#) and WRITE IT IN in the treble clef above the A (lower note). that way you can take this note with your right hand. much easier! Do you find this post useful? Yes / No

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #13 on: January 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM part of the reason i'm putting all this here is to make it easier for people who haven't played un sospiro before. it's not terribly hard once you get all the intricacies of the fingering worked out. then, it's just a matter of practicing it over and over.

ok. we have rh hand melody at measures 22 - 23 whilst the left hand arp. fingering is : 52142 1 (on C#) 23 123 53213 123 123 (or whatever you want to use there)

now, in measure 24 the arp. grouping changes from 6 sixteenth notes to 7 on third and fourth beat. mark it!

lh fingering: 52132 (here you DO switch hands) rh 4213 -from C# to C# lh 12521 rh 1245 lh 3 rh 5421 lh 12 Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged

pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #14 on: January 10, 2007, 08:55:41 PM measure 25 you have the arpeggiation changing from groups of 7 to 8 on the third and fourth beats. also, it reminds you to accelerate your playing here. liszt was a master of composition. measure 26 you have groups of 7 again.

ok. back to measure 25 - the fingering is lh 521 (with 3 in rh above on F#) rh 1245 (lh crossover with 3) rh 5421 lh 12 5321 rh 1235 (lh crossover 3) rh 5321 lh 123.

measure 25 grace note fingering 2 moving to 4 (C# to E)

lh: 5212 rh 1245421 lh 2125321 rh 1245421 lh 124

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 09:05:30 PM measure 27 pretty much keeps the rh in treble and lh in bass.

lh fingering: 532132123 123532132123123

measure 28 lh: 532132123123 532132123123

measure 29 lh: 521532123123 521 rh 1245421 lh 12 now this sets you up for picking up your hands and playing the octaves with rh on top notes as 323232 and lh on bottom octave notes with 232323.

measure 31 you have FOUR sixteenth notes for the first beat and then after that SIX. DRAW LINES DOWN THROUGH BOTH STAVES ON MAIN BEATS.

measure 32 you have an unusal affair - there are FOUR sixteenth note groups alternated by six. four/six/four/six AGAIN - DRAW LINES DOWN STAVES ON MAIN BEATS.

this really helps to visualize it a lot - and reminds you to play the notes faster where indicated. 'impetuoso'

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 09:12:35 PM measure 34:

still alternates between first group of four and last groups in six.

right under the accelerando marking (beats 2 and 3 of measure 37) you'll want to use rh 245 on Fx C# E, and lh 521 rh 12 4-5 lh 521 rh 12 45 lh 532 rh on first two notes of cadenza 21...

cadenza hands together

rh 2345432132143214321235 4321321432143212354321 3214321432123543 1235431235431235432121324354

lh 4321234123131231314321234123 131231314321234123 13123131432121432121 4321214321212345342312 (then two last chords) Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged dnephi PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 09:48:28 PM Thanks for fingering all of that, although I'm not going to use it. Wow.... Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert. (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.) pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 09:55:39 PM i didn't actually do it - my teacher did. but, it made playing this piece a lot easier. this was before i understood the reasoning behind using certain fingering. once you get some pieces professionally fingered - you can see how to use it for other pieces (as you already do).

i don't rely so much on my teachers anymore. well, i don't even have a teacher currently. but, i can look back to these pieces to get ideas for fingering things to make it much more easily playable. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged iumonito PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007

 Reply #19 on: January 11, 2007, 04:31:33 PM Quote from: le_poete_mourant on January 10, 2007, 07:16:05 PM who was in charge of picking these pieces anyway? doesn't seem very democratic to me. seems pretty ridiculous since only a handful of people here are going to be able to play them moderately well.

Querendo invenietis.

The system for piece selection is in flux. The one for January was picked in a poll. I am for an open format, but the votes are not there (at least there were not for January).

Should you be interested, go ahead and propose a piece for February. We collectively have not voted on what is being played in February.

Democracy requires attention. I expect it of you, now that you have complained.

Some Gottschalk? Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano. pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 06:18:38 PM no. no gottschalk. i hate it when people change things. keep the list. we voted in january. i've already printed out pages and pages. half the stuff i've never seen - but now have been practicing it for several days. are you saying this is all for nothing.

iumonito - make a stand. say we voted in january for the year. we are sticking with the pieces.

next year - i get to pick them all:

they are as follows:

paganini variations by brahms mussorgsky's pictures at an exhibition dvorak's poetic moods a piano concerto of your choice some alkan some sorabji some barber (barber nocturne) 3 etudes of chopin the hardest piece that liszt wrote schumann's hardest piece ahinton's transcription of schumann's whatever it was and 3 pieces by leroy anderson (sleigh ride, the sycopated clock, and whatever else) or your favorite holiday music along with an operatic transcription.

ok. i'm joking. but - half serious. i mean - i need some motivation to get this piano concerto learned. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged iumonito PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 06:55:16 PM

Well, Susan, it is not for naught. It is good for you to read L'Isle Joyeuse, Voi che sapete, and Chopin's ballade 4, regardless of the Online Piano Open. If I had more time, I would definitely jump on the Un Sospiro wagon (I will be reading the Siloti revision this weekend, so who knows, if it goes easy I'll post).

If this is going to take hold, I think it has to incorporate the input of all interested.

Again, open format obviates all the choosing and you this me that.

If it is important for you, I'll also stick to the list and we can have a mano a mano parallel to whatever the group veers to.

Pictures at an exhibition sounds great. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano. pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 07:16:30 PM what! you are not playing un sospiro? oh well. no matter. mine **. it is truly horrific after all these years. and, yet - i must prove myself against this mountain of notes. i will record a version of my own at half speed. yes. or, the first part will be like the wind and the end will slow gradually down to a comfortable armchair wipeout.

but, the cadenzas came back to me today. i was just playing them - and then i though' oh, yes. these are the notes.'

ok. so - i play debussy and un sospiro tonight or tommorrow or the weekend. maybe weeked would be better job - but i have a feeling my husband is going to be wanting this or that - because his eye is getting operated on tommorrow. so, probably tonight i'll record.

just for fun - i'm going to post the thalberg-mozart, too. it's pretty easy. maybe i agree - something harder for february. let's move the chopin up. the fourth ballade. that will put a fire under me.

ps i had to look up mano a mano as i thought it meant one to one. but, the definition says to hand something to someone in person. same thing? so - either way - you can hand it to me in person - or we'll make our own thread and have a sort of wierd competition between a real piano and a real recording set up and sythesizer. i think you're going to win hands down - but i don't care. it's good practice for me. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged jazzyprof PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #23 on: January 12, 2007, 06:06:58 AM Hey Susan, thanks for all the great fingering suggestions and practice tips for Un Sospiro. What a labor of love! Now I'm motivated to go learn the piece. You could be my teacher... Do you find this post useful? Yes / No

Logged "Playing the piano is my greatest joy, next to my wife; it is my most absorbing interest, next to my work." ...Charles Cooke pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 09:33:30 PM i think we all learn from each other. i learned this fingering from MY teacher - so it's really not mine. in fact, i was thinking today - i wish i could have had another 10 years with the guy. but, he was really good and had to move on. i think he and his wife (also a professor of music) teach in virginia now. they are both professional pianists and i really admired their perfection in working out 'details' ahead of time. of course, fingering is just the tip of the iceberg as you know - but hey, it helps a lot, right! some fingering is just for certain hand sizes - but this one seems to fit most. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged nanabush PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #25 on: January 13, 2007, 03:13:34 AM oh man, the only piece I can play on the list so far is the Bach P/F that's probably going to be one of the only things I'll be submitting, because I still have a full plate of other stuff, none of which is there haha. I'll probably be doing more of the later ones, like after june, because I have a really important exam around then. Some of these, like Mazeppa, are beyond me... I'm guessing that each 'month' is a competition in it's own? There is no way that most people on this forum, except those who know all of these pieces, will be able to learn all of this during the year. I liked the idea of maybe "a chopin etude" or even "a set of chopin preludes ~ 10 minutes" or something like 2 scarlatti sonatas. It's so much more difficult when there's distinct pieces chosen... anyways enuf of this rant, I think it should be a bit less specific. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Rep '11/12

Bach: Pr/F in B major (bk2) Beethoven: Sonata Op 78 Chopin: Scherzo in Bb minor Rach: Prelude in E major

Ravel: Concerto in G major

Chopin: Op 10 #1 Debussy: Etude #7

Ligeti: dnephi PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #26 on: January 13, 2007, 05:49:32 PM Randomly any tips on the Mazeppa? I think there it just boils down to extreme amounts of slow practice to play such fingerwork. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert. (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.) pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #27 on: January 14, 2007, 03:50:56 AM i wrote out my cadenza fingering for that at the top. check it and see if it works. i'll try to work a little tommorrow. this is fun when other people are playing the same things. i tend to just go for easy stuff when noone's listening. my family couldn't care less about mazeppa. i could spend hours and they'd just be 'oh. that's nice.' Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #28 on: January 14, 2007, 03:58:23 AM ok on unsospiro - we have at measure 38 rh 5 to start on A moving to 4 on G# after this the lh and rh alternate again with 24 in both hands.

the bass clef arpeggios are lh 521 rh 124... until measure 39 second beat lh 521 rh 1235...

measure 40 (top of next page) rh 24 and alternating again. you can write out the sixteenth note groups above or intbetween measure to keep track of them. they move from six sixteeth notes to seven in measure 41.

the lh in measure 40 is 5321 rh 1245... measure 43 lh 5321 rh 1...5 m.44 5421 and you use 421 allthe way to measure 46

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #29 on: January 14, 2007, 04:02:01 AM measure 46 (leggierissimo volante) we have a little trick that makes this part MUCH easier. take the D#'s in the treble clef (in stave) within the third and fourth beats and make them LEFT HAND notes. so you can play them with your thumb!

do the same for the third and fourth beats of the next measure.

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007 Reply #30 on: January 14, 2007, 04:03:40 AM there must be somebody here who has worked mazeppa and has some hints. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Pages: [1] Go Up PRINT

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Piano Forum > Piano Board > Repertoire > Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Pages: [1] Go Down PRINT Author Topic: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) (Read 2346 times) lagin PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) on: July 13, 2006, 10:39:29 PM In bar 30 of this piece, after the octave trill like thing in bar 29, which hand does what on that arpeggio thing that goes up and down for the next half a page? If stems up equal right hand and stems down equal left hand then am I to assume that the left hand starts it with that low F followed by a few notes in the right hand, and then the left hand does all the rest of it for the remainer of the bar? If that's the case then poor left hand!

How is it suppost to be? Thanks

Edit: I found some videos on youtube, and apparently the right hand carries the load for most of that bar, so it's exactly the opposite of what I thought. Good thing I checked! Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. Liszt: Concert Etude - Un Sospiro, no 3

Concert Etude - Un Sospiro no 3

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 11:12:46 PM I found that section and bars 46-50 the most difficult sections of the piece, so good luck with it.

With the section you are reffering to: I found it tough making sure the left hand gets out of the way as quick as possible after the C Octave for the Right hand to carry on with the arrpegios.

So what I really concentrated on was exaggerating lifting my left hand above to let the right hand through. As soon as the Right hand arpeggios finish you have to pounce on the D Octave with the left hand.

It's a really rewarding section to play. Hope the advice helps because this section caused me a lot of stress when I first practiced it.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 11:49:01 PM Hey thanks Nicko, those are awesome tips. I'll keep those in mind as I practice. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No

Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. lagin PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #3 on: July 14, 2006, 12:40:18 AM Okay, not the chromatic bit in the second part of bar 37. Can someone give me some fingerings? So far for the right hand I have, starting on the E, 1 2 4 2 3 then where it says Presto I go 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 3 then on the accented F# I be stuck. And the left hand I don't have anything so far. Anyone? Thanks. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. jlh PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 03:20:05 AM Quote from: lagin on July 14, 2006, 12:40:18 AM Okay, not the chromatic bit in the second part of bar 37. Can someone give me some fingerings? So far for the right hand I have, starting on the E, 1 2 4 2 3 then where it says Presto I go 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 3 then on the accented F# I be stuck. And the left hand I don't have anything so far. Anyone? Thanks.

I'm not at my studio so I can't check with my score and count measures, but if you're talking about the cadenza that's prepared by a C# dim up the piano, then I know where you are. Starting on the E, I believe with the right hand I lead up to the F# by 1 2 5 2 3 and do the same thing you do for the chromatic descension. After that on the accented F#'s do the same RH fingering all over again. For the LH leading up to the A (played with the F# in the RH) I do 4 3 2 1. Then from the A in the LH, the chromatic fingering I use is 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 4 3 2 -- then it begins again. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged . ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL ' ___/\___ L ______/ LOL "\ L \ []\

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 03:45:05 AM Hey Jlh, thanks for repling. (Edit: if you want this whole paragraph in a nut shell, skip to last sentence! ) In the right hand after I descend from the F# chromatically all they way down (just over an octave) to the E, then it has a short jump down to a B# and goes up to C#, D# then F#, where I use 1, 2, 3, and either (4 or 5?), respectively, then I'm lost after that. I don't know whether to use 4 or 5 on that accented F#. The notes that follow are E#, E, D#, D, C# and then it jumps back up to B# a 7th higher. Am I losing you? I don't know what fingering to use on the F# that will get me comfortably down to the C#. I could go F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 2. Or should I go F# 4, E# 2, E 1, D# 3, D 2, C# 1? The first way is ackward because of the squishy 5 4 3 2 1 all in a row, and then I have to go up a 7th starting on the 2 which is doable, but also ackward. The second way is ackward because I'm ending with 1 on a black key which is really foreign to me to do that (is that commonly done?), and the chromatic sequence is thrown a bit by going 4 to 2 instead of 4 to 3.

I think what I'm trying to say in all of that is did you ever use your thumb on the C#? If that is common, I think I'd like to try it.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 08:25:29 AM Quote from: lagin on July 14, 2006, 03:45:05 AM In the right hand after I descend from the F# chromatically all they way down (just over an octave) to the E, then it has a short jump down to a B# and goes up to C#, D# then F#, where I use 1, 2, 3, and either (4 or 5?),

I reccomend using 5 when you return to the F# after the C# and D#, the reason being that you are basically repeating the section again so you may as well use the original fingering. Also the fifth finger seems to lie easily after the B#, C# and D# with 1,2,3.

Quote I could go F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 2. Or should I go F# 4, E# 2, E 1, D# 3, D 2, C# 1? The first way is ackward because of the squishy 5 4 3 2 1 all in a row, and then I have to go up a 7th starting on the 2 which is doable, but also ackward.

I personally go with the 'F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 3, B# 2, B natural 1.

This was the fingering implied by my edition: Augener and I think these are Liszt's fingerings. I found them fairly awkward at first but the easiest thing to do nonetheless.

I certainly reccomend it over using 4 for the F# because I would run out of fingers to cross over. If you use the 5 for the F # than the other notes are already under the hand.

After I get to the D with 1, I than go 3, 2, 1 to get to B Natural. I than use 4, 3, 2, 1 to get to the G Natural. After this, it is quite essential to use 4, 3, 2 for F#, E #, and E Natural so you have 1, 2 and 3 ready for B#, C# and D#.

Hope that makes some sense.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 10:29:41 AM my teacher fingered this starting at measure 37 at the C# for the left hand. (3221) and then only starts with the rh at the D# (123) and lh (432). this would be the last few notes before the run on the F# going down.

here's what i have for the complete run in the rh at measure 38: 54321 321 4321 4321235432 132 1432 1432 1235432 132 1432 1432 123543 123543 123543 1235432 12 1324354 da da (last two chords)

lh run: 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 123453423 12

it took me a long time to get this all hands together - but when i finally did - it was really fast. the fastest fingering i think! Susan Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged pianistimo PS Gold Member Sr. Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 10:37:47 AM at measure 29? the left hand takes the last two notes before the octave trill (12) on E and Bb. this gives you a very fast 5421245 right before that.

then - when you reach the trill - start under tempo and work up on the trill using 3232...in the rh and 2323... in the lh. there's a definate break (my teacher has it marked there - right before the double C. it gives good effect not to pedal through that totally.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 11:50:47 AM Quote from: pianistimo on July 14, 2006, 10:37:47 AM

then - when you reach the trill - start under tempo and work up on the trill using 3232...in the rh and 2323... in the lh. there's a definate break (my teacher has it marked there - right before the double C. it gives good effect not to pedal through that totally.

As my personal preference, I use only the right hand for the Trill to adhere to the 'Con forza' (With Force) instructions. This is also the way Marc Andre Hamelin (and most other proffesionals) play it.

Actually it might be useful to check out his video of 'Un Sospiro', if you haven't already lagin:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLHU2ES51uw&search=Un%20SOspiro

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!

 Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 11:54:49 AM Quote from: pianistimo on July 14, 2006, 10:29:41 AM

here's what i have for the complete run in the rh at measure 38: 54321 321 4321 4321235432 132 1432 1432 1235432 132 1432 1432 123543 123543 123543 1235432 12 1324354 da da (last two chords)

lh run: 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 123453423 12

Yep, I do exactly that fingering as well. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged justliam PS Silver Member Full Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 01:53:32 PM hey, sorry to hijack to post, but does anybody if this sheet music is available anywhere for free?

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 04:29:58 PM Hey, the sheet music can be found at gamingforce.com IF you are a member (otherwise the section is hidden). I usually get my stuff there then go buy an original copy if I'm going to learn it (otherwise, I feel guilty about the copyright issues).

Thank you so much everyone! I feel like a bit of an idot, as today I noticed that the chromatic run does not go back up a 7th but continues down. I am TERRIBLE at noticing when things switch octaves.

Thanks pianistimo, I'll write those LH fingerings in right now. I have a question though. Back in measure 29 you mentioned some fingerings for the left hand bit right before the trill. They seem better than what I have, but you only listed the last 7 of them - 5421245, which I'm presuming starts on the Bb. What do you use on the four notes before that? All together I had planned on using, 521321212313, but I don't like the noodlely part an the end because I'm not sure it's going to work at speed.

Also, in general, I'm making my fingerings as legato as possible even if it means doing things like 3 2 1 2 and switching finger 2 over top of the thumb, ect. I, so far, have not had more than a couple places where I actually have to jump from 5 to 5, because I'll go 5, then jump landing on 1 and then flip my hand over in an arpeggio like style mentioned above. Is this a correct way of playing it?

In case you are wondering, as I drive you all nuts, I do have a teacher, but it's summer holidays so I only see her once and a while, and I haven't seen her since she emailed me and "okayed" this piece for me.

P.S. yeah that's a great video at you tube. I watched it yesterday. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. nicko124 PS Silver Member Full Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #13 on: July 14, 2006, 04:52:55 PM Quote from: lagin on July 14, 2006, 04:29:58 PM Back in measure 29 you mentioned some fingerings for the left hand bit right before the trill. They seem better than what I have, but you only listed the last 7 of them - 5421245, which I'm presuming starts on the Bb. What do you use on the four notes before that? All together I had planned on using,

521321212313, but I don't like the noodlely part an the end because I'm not sure it's going to work at speed.

I don't know what edition you have but mine suggests a rather logical thing for the bit before the trill. I haven't got the sheet music or a piano with me at the moment but try this:The right hand eventually lands on a D Flat Chord, the left hand part has an arpeggio run at this time that leads to E Flat and G in between the octave you are holdng on in the RH. Therefore play those notes with 2 and 3 of the RH. It makes it much easier for your LH and demands very little effort of your right hand.

Hope that Helps.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #14 on: July 14, 2006, 06:40:07 PM

as i understand the arpeggios right before the trill at measure 29 - my teacher had marked this to be played (C Bb E G Bb E G E Bb G...) as 5215421245 (12) and the reason for this was speed. you can try to turn the thumb at the G natural - but it's not as fast as just using the 5th finger and doing a 'thumb over' thing and grabbing the last two notes with 1 and 2. that's what he wrote anyway...and i hope my reasoning is correct.

i've done some fudging in beethoven this way (with odd fingering) and it seems to work to keep the speed going.

as far as nicko's suggestion to play the octave trills with the right hand only -that's grand if you are able to play them well. personally, i think it's an unneccessary stress because who is going to care if you are using one hand or both. also, right after that you get right into more fast arpgeggios. this is a way to save ur hand and relax it. and, you can put more force into each hand without stressing to get the 'con forza.'

but, i respect and admire mark-andre hamelin. if he does it and you can do it with one hand- more power to u. sometimes we just do what works. that's all i'm doing. plus, i have a small hand. i might be able to do it now - because i've studied piano again and have a looser octave technique, too. would u use 51, 41, 51, 41...? (but then, what at the Eb and Db?) if you had a large hand - maybe 41, 31, 41, 31...41, 51, 41? or the first fingering and then purposely use 41 on the Eb to give more solidity? so you'd go from C (51) to Eb (41) to Db (51)

on the repeated C octave after that - would it be useful to use 51 twice and simply move the hand in? Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged lagin PS Silver Member Sr. Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #15 on: July 14, 2006, 08:14:14 PM Ummmmm.... Now I'm wondering about my fingering everywhere then! Ahhhhhhh!!!! I need my teacher badly, I think. Ah, well, onwards and upwards, I will figure this out eventually! I was just doing 51 on all the octaves of the trill. Oops, is it suppost to be legato - ish? Thank you for the fingering pianistimo. How big is your hand? I can reach a 10th if I HAVE to (by hanging off the edges of the keys).

Also, at bar 52, the section similar to the chromatic section I was stuck on earlier (ie. lot's of little, tiny notes in free time), I've got the right hand descending fingering figured out, but when it hits the G natural below middle C and starts to go back up, then what do I do till the end? They start to throw some chromatic stuff in there that messes up my plans. Do you guys use finger 5 in there at all in the ascent?

Also, if anyone wants to save me the time, they could give me what they used for the left hand of that part , and it would be much appreciated. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. nicko124 PS Silver Member Full Member

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 11:19:53 PM Quote from: lagin on July 14, 2006, 08:14:14 PM Ummmmm.... Now I'm wondering about my fingering everywhere then! Ahhhhhhh!!!!

Don't forget that it is all about what suits you that matters in terms of the fingering. We have provided suggestions but the best thing to do is to experiment yourself (as i did) and figure out what best suits you.

Quote Also, if anyone wants to save me the time, they could give me what they used for the left hand of that part , and it would be much appreciated.

Off the top of my head: LH going up from B natural: 54321, 4321 4321. At the last section of the scale I use:- from G Flat - - 3, 2, 1,3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2 1, 3, 2.

Quote to play the octave trills with the right hand only -that's grand if you are able to play them well. personally, i think it's an unneccessary stress because who is going to care if you are using one hand or both. also, right after that you get right into more fast arpgeggios. this is a way to save ur hand and relax it. and, you can put more force into each hand without stressing to get the 'con forza.'

I agree, you can save yourself energy and stress by using two hands. It's basically down to preference really. I don't mind just using the Right Hand but thats just me.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #17 on: July 15, 2006, 09:49:27 PM Thanks Nick, those fingerings work really well for me. Do you remember what you did for the right hand of that section where it ascends?

Also, at the beginning of that section, after the arpeggiated chords, how do you guys do the left hand? I thought of 212345234123132 ect., but I'm not sure if, when it's at speed 212345234123452 ect., wouldn't work better. It's more squishy but also more simple. What did you guys use? Pianistimo, what did you teacher recommend there?

Thanks, you guys are fabulous! Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. pianistimo

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 08:05:11 AM that's the way it's written already in my score (peters edition). it's been so long since i've played this that i've forgotten all the intricacies. it took me awhile to learn all this - but really fun to play once learned. my teacher has a decrescendo mark from the middle of the run to the end (back to pp) and a bit mark to observe the fermata. you want the quality of the next section to be different - so u need a moment to change gears, probably. plus, that next section (the un poco piu mosso) was the hardest for me to make sound smooth at the time i was playing it. i'd ask ur teacher for their recommendation for lh fingering there, but i have (for my hand size):

lh at 'un poco piu mosso': 521, 124, 521, 124, ...then when it consistently goes up 521, 421, 421, 521, 124

don't forget ur right hand is crossing over on the last page every other time. in the peters edition it is on the Cb, Ab, F, and D (very bottom 1/2 notes). guess u probably already figured that one out. chopin andliszt are so similar - because if u don't get the fingering -u can't really ever play the piece up to speed. Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged nicko124

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #19 on: July 16, 2006, 01:38:05 PM Quote from: pianistimo on July 16, 2006, 08:05:11 AM plus, that next section (the un poco piu mosso) was the hardest for me to make sound smooth at the time i was playing it. i'd ask ur teacher for their recommendation for lh fingering there, but i have (for my hand size):

lh at 'un poco piu mosso': 521, 124, 521, 124, ...then when it consistently goes up 521, 421, 421, 521, 124

This section was definately more difficult than I expected, I found the RH notes tht repeat tended to slow me down a little bit.

My left hand for the first section is as follows 5,3 -hop 2 123, 531, 125, 521, 125, 521, 124

the ascending bit in the left hand - 5,3, 1, 32,1 and so on.

You probably don't need reminding of this but the key part of this section is the accented original melody notes from page 1. They are marked in the score and played by left and right hand:-

RH - A Flat, LH - B Flat, RH - D Flat, LH - E Flat, RH - F, LH - E Flat, RH - B Flat, LH - D Flat

I think in some ways, this section is one of the most beautiful in the piece. It can be a little bit demanding on the right hand so pace yourself.

best

nicko124

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!

 Reply #20 on: July 16, 2006, 01:47:13 PM Quote from: lagin on July 15, 2006, 09:49:27 PM how do you guys do the left hand? I thought of 212345234123132 ect., but I'm not sure if, when it's at speed 212345234123452 ect., wouldn't work better. It's more squishy but also more simple. What did you guys use? Pianistimo, what did you teacher recommend there?

This is how I do the Left Hand Descending on the second cadenza (it's quite a bit different to yours):-

123, 123, 123, 123, 123, 12, 1 etc.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #21 on: July 16, 2006, 03:29:13 PM Thanks so much everyone. I finally have a lesson not tomorrow, but the next day, which I am very pleased about! Hopefully, time permitting, we'll sort most of this out then!

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #22 on: July 20, 2006, 06:26:46 PM Thanks everyone for the helpful fingerings.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #23 on: July 30, 2006, 06:27:27 PM

In bar 53 onward, does "non legato egualmente" mean something like equally detached? Does any of this non legato stuff apply to the right hand, or should it be kept as smooth as possible? I'm wondering because I can play it all legato with exception of the repeated notes, but it would be nice to play the melody notes with my thumb each time instead of hitting them with 2 or 3 on my way back up.

Also, what's with the 3 2 fingering on the octaves in the melody on page 2. Why not 51 and 15? You can't make them connected with 23 and 32, and they're slurred? Just wondering why they would slur them if they don't want them fingered that way?

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind! Reply #24 on: July 30, 2006, 09:36:42 PM Quote from: lagin on July 30, 2006, 06:27:27 PM

In bar 53 onward, does "non legato egualmente" mean something like equally detached?

That seems right as egualmente means equal.

Quote Does any of this non legato stuff apply to the right hand, or should it be kept as smooth as possible? I'm wondering because I can play it all legato with exception of the repeated notes, but it would be nice to play the melody notes with my thumb each time instead of hitting them with 2 or 3 on my way back up.

I personally feel that it is a little bit quick to make it staccato. However, every effort has been made to show that it shouldn't be strictly legato (there are no slurs as well as the non legato direction). It is quick though which means that making it very 'non legato' would be difficult without slowing down the tempo.

Quote

Also, what's with the 3 2 fingering on the octaves in the melody on page 2. Why not 51 and 15? You can't make them connected with 23 and 32, and they're slurred?

Have you tried playing these octaves with the LH on 51? It's really painful especially at speed. That is why 32 is used, it's practical. The 15 is fine for the right hand, perfectly comfortable.

Quote Just wondering why they would slur them if they don't want them fingered that way?

This is a really good question. I mean it seems like a bit of a contradiction slurring two staccato notes. I can't see why it is nessecary other than to show that they should be played in relation to one another, but that is obvious anyway.

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) Reply #25 on: July 30, 2006, 10:31:33 PM Hey nicko,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. How come some left hand notes are marked staccato and some aren't in bar 53? Does this mean that they are all detached and the staccato ones are very detached?

Haha, actually I was playing those octaves using 51 with the left hand and it was very ackward to say the least! I should probably switch that now before I get up to speed! Do you find this post useful? Yes / No Logged Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven. Pages: [1] Go Up PRINT

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