Ms. Rubino-2

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THE STATE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT THE UNIVERSITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK In the Matter of NEW YORK CITY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION v. CHRISTINE RUBINO Section 3020-a Education Law Proceeding (File #17,116)
DATE: TIME: LOCATION:
February 28, 2011 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. NYC Department of Education Office of Legal Services 49-51 Chambers Street New York, NY 10007 RANDI LOWITT, ESQ. HEARING OFFICER
BEFORE:
Ubiqus Reporting, Inc.
2-28-11 In the matter of Ms. Rubino

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INDEX APPEARANCES: FOR THE COMPLAINANT: JEFFREY GAMILS, ESQ., of Counsel NYC Department of Education Office of Legal Services 49-51 Chambers Street New York, NY 10007 Telephone: (212) 374-6741 FOR THE RESPONDENT: BRYAN GLASS, ESQ.
INDEX DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION DESCRIPTION I.D. IN EV. 2 Daily News Article Dated 06/23/10 90 3 NY Post Article Dated 06/23/10 90 4 NY Times Article Dated 06/23/10 90 5 SCI Case Form 107 108 6 Facebook Printout 109 112 7 Facebook Posting 118 121 8 Email From Respondent to R. Caiati 124 125 9 Subpoena and Submissions of 127 134 Facebook 10 Subpoena and Submissions of CSC 138 139 Holdings, LLC 11 Investigative Reports 143 146 12 SCI Final Report 148 151 13 SCI Recommendation Report 152 156 14 SCI Memo 161 164 15 Amended SCI Recommendation Report 165 167
Name: R. Caiati: Sworn 102 Direct by Gamils 101 Voir Dire by Glass 108 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 108 Voir Dire by Glass 120 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 121 Voir Dire by Glass 129 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 134 Voir Dire by Glass 145 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 146 Voir Dire by Glass 150 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 151 Voir Dire by Glass 154 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 156 Voir Dire by Glass 162 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 164 Voir Dire by Glass 166 Direct (cont.) by Gamils 167 Cross by Glass 168 D. Senatore: Sworn 248 Direct by Gamils 248 Cross by Glass 274 Re-direct by Gamils 310 Re-cross by Glass 313 Re-direct by Gamils 314 EXHIBITS RESPONDENT DESCRIPTION I.D. IN EV. 2 Facebook Posting 179 181 3 Investigative Notes 216 217 4 Email to O'Mahoney 225
INDEX WITNESSES Page:
78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 (The hearing commenced at 10:00 a.m.) THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning. We are on the record in the case of Ms. Christine Rubino, SED number 17,116, for the 3020-a charges proffered against her by the Department of Education. I am present. Also present, on my right? MR. JEFFREY GAMILS: Jeffrey Gamils, G-A-MI-L-S, for the Department. MR. BRYAN GLASS: Bryan Glass, from the law firm of Glass, Krakower, LLP, for Respondent Christine Rubino. THE HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Rubino is also present. It is my understanding, as I said in the past, that Ms. Rubino did request a public hearing, so that there are other people present in the room. Please state your name. MS. BETSY COMBIER: Betsy Combier. MR. MICHAEL DORTO: Michael Dorto. THE HEARING OFFICER: Please spell your last name. MR. DORTO: D-O-R-T-O. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. As this is a public hearing, and as we are about to begin the hearing, please let me lay down some ground rules.

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79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 There is no recording, audio or video, of this hearing. There is no participation by any member of the public. There is no talking between or among any member of the public. There is no note passing between or among any member of the public and the participating party. The only talking and note passing is between the parties to the hearing. None-nothing that will disrupt the flow of the hearing will be permitted. Acceptable? MR. GLASS: Just to clarify, but I can speak to them on breaks, right? THE HEARING OFFICER: You can speak to them on breaks as much as you want. But while the course of the hearing is going on, you can speak with your client. That's your right. And your client may speak to you. That's your right. Everybody else is just here to watch. MR. GLASS: And, as far as recording, we do have the audio recording. You're saying no-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Additional. MR. GLASS: --additional recording? THE HEARING OFFICER: This is the hearing-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Yeah, I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 was about the student records. My understanding is that a lot of student records were turned over. J.H., I believe we got records from his junior--he's now a junior in high school, I believe. Are there any records--are you still searching for records from this time at the school, the year in question? Because I understand that-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] The records for this school year were provided. MR. GLASS: I mean our review indicates that we didn't see any records for this--oh, for this school year, you're saying? MR. GAMILS: Correct. MR. GLASS: My question is whether any records from the year in question when she had-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] There is a sheet in the records that we--that Department did provide as far as cumulative reports and grades and attendance, I believe, for the school year in question. The disciplinary records were provided and that is a cumulative report. If it doesn't indicate there were suspensions that were documented during that school year, then it's--they were not maintained in the database.
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80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 understand. THE HEARING OFFICER: --recording itself, yes. Okay. Are we ready? MR. GLASS: I just wanted to raise two procedural things. I saw--I read the transcripts of the-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Things that I forwarded to you. MR. GLASS: Yeah, the first one and the second one. One is about discovery. I just want to be clear. I mean we've asked for the Facebook policy. My understanding is there's no specific Facebook policy, that you're relying on the general, you know, 3020-a law or whatever that this meets misconduct. So my question is is there any other Facebook policy that you're aware of? Are you still searching? Or what's the position specific to Facebook? MR. GAMILS: For the Department of Education? MR. GLASS: Yeah. MR. GAMILS: The Department of Education, I believe, has no specific policy in regards to Facebook. MR. GLASS: Okay. And the second question 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 MR. GLASS: But did you check with the principal as to their files? MR. GAMILS: I did check. And, as far as Department's aware, we are no longer searching for additional records. A complete set of the records were provided. MR. GLASS: I just want to note that in my experience that when we have the principal here we often find to that there's other sets of records that, you know, seem to be--come to play. So I will explore that with her and ask. THE HEARING OFFICER: Feel free to ask. Should anything come up, as you know, discovery is-discovery is a continuing obligation. Should anything come up, then it will be provided. MR. GLASS: Okay. My other question just I noticed that Mr.--previous counsel had raised the question about-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Mr. Kelly? MR. GLASS: Yes, specifications two and three, whether they were cumulative of specification one or if they meet misconduct on its face. My understanding the ruling is you're just reserving on
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83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 that at this point? THE HEARING OFFICER: That is correct. MR. GAMILS: Just for clarification purposes, I don't think the motion was to-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] It wasn't three. I think it was two. MR. GAMILS: --specification three. It was only to specification two. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's correct. MR. GLASS: Okay. And you just reserved on that? THE HEARING OFFICER: I did. MR. GLASS: That's fine. THE HEARING OFFICER: I did. MR. GAMILS: The Department does have two issues. Under the agreement that was signed on June 27th, 2008, between Joel Klein and Randi Weingarten, we are requesting the Respondent's witness list, which was supposed to be provided a week before the prehearing conference. We have yet to receive that. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I understand you were just recently retained as counsel. MR. GLASS: I was recently retained. I'd have to talk to her about that. My experience is we 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 maybe you can-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Do you actually have a witness list for her? She said she gave you a list. MR. GAMILS: No, I was not provided anything from Mr. Kelly or from Mr. Glass. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sure that-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] You gave him something specific, you said? MS. RUBINO: Mr. Kelly? MR. GLASS: Oh, you gave Mr. Kelly the list? MS. RUBINO: I gave it to Mr. Kelly, yes. MR. GLASS: All right. Well, we'll talk about it. MR. GAMILS: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. MR. GLASS: My understanding, I mean the way the Board presents its witness list is that they say-they give a bunch of names and they add or subtract. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. MR. GLASS: So, you know, we'll give what we definitely know for sure, but we may actually reserve as well. We don't really know. Obviously, we have to kind of see how this really develops. So if I have
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84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 generally don't-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Well, Mr. Glass, your experience is one thing. But if your experience isn't since the agreement was signed, then that's something entirely different. So I understand Mr. Gamils' request. Please speak with your client, if you can, by maybe the next hearing date, which is Wednesday, provide a witness list or at least what you know. Ms. Rubino, just as a point of interet, now that you are represented by counsel, he speaks. MS. CHRISTINE RUBINO: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: If there's anything that you wish to say, say it to him. And if he wishes, he'll pass it over to me. I'm not trying to be rude to you. MS. RUBINO: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: But that was the purpose of your having retained counsel, was so that you didn't have to speak with me. MS. RUBINO: I gave Mr. Kelly the witness list. MR. GLASS: You did give it to him? MS. RUBINO: Uh-huh. THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Well, then 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 any certain witnesses, I'll let you know by the--you know, by tomorrow or next hearing day. If not, I'm going to just kind of play it by ear. THE HEARING OFFICER: What else, Mr. Gamils? MR. GAMILS: The Department would also like to have certain articles pre-marked under -- 45-32, self-authenticating documents. These articles were provided to Respondent during discovery. They're bate stamped 215 through 219--I'm sorry, 220. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, are they-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] They consist of three newspaper articles related to the charges, specifically specification two, I believe. THE HEARING OFFICER: And-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] And specification one. THE HEARING OFFICER: You want them premarked because? MR. GAMILS: Because they're selfauthenticating documents. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: It's not like we're pre-marking hundreds of exhibits. I think they can be introduced at the time, through a witness, you know. I might
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87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 object to what they say, probably not. But I think they don't need to be pre-marked. I think it depends on what their witness presents and if they're relevant. I'm not so sure they're going to be that relevant, you know. I mean I'm sure both documents refer to the drowning but I don't think they need to be pre-marked. I think they can be introduced through witness testimony as to part of the investigation, perhaps. MR. GAMILS: I believe it would be more expeditious just to pre-mark them now, since the witnesses that the Department's calling-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Do you want them marked for identification only? MR. GAMILS: --are not the authors. No, I want them marked as-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] You want them marked and admitted? MR. GAMILS: Correct. The Department--the witnesses didn't, obviously, write these articles. These were articles that were in the newspaper about the drowning death of Nicole Suriel, which is related to the charges. THE HEARING OFFICER: And you want them 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 articles about that story. And the fact that there were two or three articles about this doesn't really have any particular relevance to, you know, the charges at issue. You know, I don't see why they should be pre-marked. I don't even think they're admissible. I think he can use it, you know, for closing arguments. He can use sources like this to try and say this was, you know, an event that, you know. But I don't see why it's necessarily relevant or even admissible. I mean-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] It's relevant because if the incident did not occur, then the comments wouldn't be as inappropriate as they are. Because the event occurred makes the comments even more inappropriate. MR. GLASS: Why can't we just stipulate to the fact that there was an event? Why do we need to see the articles? MR. GAMILS: We can stipulate that on June 22nd, 2010, a New York City public student, I believe in sixth grade, named Nicole Suriel, died on a school trip to Long Beach. MR. GLASS: I would probably stipulate. I would stipulate to that, the fact that it happened.
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88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 marked as 2, 3 and 4? MR. GAMILS: I believe that's what we're up to, correct? Because the specifications were marked as Department's 1. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass, I'm not sure that there would be a witness who would be able to testify as to the authenticity of them, so to speak. I mean we don't have the author of them here. They are, as Mr. Gamils said, self-authenticating. If they were to testify, I would assume it would only be to the -- maybe. MR. GLASS: It seems to me that they're more for argument at the end of the case. I'm not so sure why they're part of the record, necessarily. I mean obviously there was some response to a story but, you know, why he's giving three articles--why is it three articles? Why isn't it one article? Why? You know, what's the particular relevance of any of these particular articles, other than that there was an event that happened, that was commented on. So I don't know why these particular articles-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] That's the very reason. MR. GLASS: There are probably hundreds of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 THE HEARING OFFICER: June 22nd, 2010, a sixth grade public school student, Nicole Suriel, died-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Drowned would be the correct. THE HEARING OFFICER: --by drowning. MR. GLASS: I'm going to say according to-according to media reports. MR. GAMILS: Are we--are you contesting that this didn't occur? THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you consenting the death of the woman or are you-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] I have no personal knowledge. I mean I obviously think it happened. THE HEARING OFFICER: Fine. I think it will be simpler, I will accept these three into evidence. I will mark them as Department 2, 3 and 4, understanding, of course, that they are not, in fact, probative of any specification. They don't meet any burden. All they are are newspaper articles. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibits 2, 3 and 4 are admitted into evidence] MR. GLASS: Can I get copies of this? MR. GAMILS: You--they were provided and
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91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 it's bate stamped 215 to 220. MR. GLASS: The problem is this--I assume that you've already given me copies of things that you're introducing, so-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I think you were-just for the record, my understanding is that Mr. Kelly--a full packet of discovery was provided to Mr. Kelly, which I am assuming was provided to Mr. Glass. I've also emailed Mr. Glass, I believe, Thursday or Friday, a full set of the discovery as well. MR. GLASS: Just a matter of procedure. I mean I could find them. I didn't think they were all that relevant so I didn't even take them today. But he gave me 300 pages of documents and I looked all through them to figure out what was most important. All I want are-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Courtesy copies for Mr. Glass. MR. GLASS: Thank you. THE HEARING OFFICER: Just so we have it clear for the record, DOE 2 is an article from the Daily News. DOE 3 is an article from the New York Post. DOE 4 is an article from the New York Times. Each article is dated June 23rd, 2010. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 students both inside and outside the classroom. At conclusion of the hearing, the Department will prove, by a preponderance of the evidence, that Respondent acted in an unprofessional, inappropriate manner, and is a liability to the New York City Public School system. On June 22nd, 2010, Nicole Suriel, a sixth grade New York City Public School student, drowned during a class trip to the beach. Students, teachers, administrators and parents were devastated and traumatized by this fatal incident. The evidence will prove the Respondent, a fellow teacher and parent, had a different response. The evidence will establish that the very next day, June 23rd, 2010, Respondent posted an inappropriate, threatening, degrading comment on her Facebook page for all her fellow Facebook friends to read, exposing her true lack of professionalism and a deep rooted hatred for all her students. Respondent's Facebook message stated, "After today, the beach sounds like a wonderful idea for my fifth graders. I hate their guts. They're all the devil's spawn." And when a fellow Facebook friend with the screen name Scott J. Lavine [phonetic] read
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92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 MR. GLASS: Just to clarify, they're not meeting any burden. They're just the fact that-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I'm admitting them into evidence. They do not meet a burden. They are simply in evidence. MR. GLASS: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: Anything else? MR. GAMILS: No, nothing from the Department. THE HEARING OFFICER: Now, I believe we are probably up to your opening. MR. GAMILS: Can I have one second? [Pause] MR. GAMILS: May I proceed? THE HEARING OFFICER: You may. MR. GAMILS: Thank you. Good morning. The New York City Department of Education is proceeding with this disciplinary hearing under New York State Education Law 3020-a against tenured teacher Christine Rubino with the sole purpose of seeking this Respondent's termination from service as a New York City Public School teacher. The evidence will establish that Respondent has exhibited numerous acts of hostility towards 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 this comment, this person posted the response, "Oh, you would let little Kwami float away?" The evidence will prove that Respondent went back to the internet airwaves with the response, "Yes, I would not throw a life jacket in for a million." It's the Department's position that this exchange was so inappropriate and callous, that it exposed Respondent's inability to maintain a basic level of professionalism, social responsibility, and human decency expected from every public school teacher. Based on this conduct alone, there is just cause for terminating--for her termination, but Respondent's misconduct does not end there. The evidence will further establish that the principal of P.S. 203, Lisa Esposito, confronted Respondent with these allegations and Respondent denied posting these messages or even knowing anyone by the name of Scott J. Lavine. Respondent said that her friend, Joanna Engle, uses her Facebook account without permission and probably posted the comments on the page. Investigator Robert Caiati from the Office of the Special Commissioner of Investigation for the New York City School District interviewed Joanne
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95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 Engle. At first, Joanne Engle claimed that she wrote the comments on Respondent's Facebook page. However, the evidence will prove that during this interview Joanne Engle couldn't remember the wording of the Facebook comments and wasn't even sure what grade Respondent taught. Investigator Caiati became suspicious and explained that if Ms. Engle was called to testify at a hearing a lied under oath, she may be criminally liable for perjury. It was at this time that Joanne Engle changed her story and stated that Respondent asked her to take responsibility for the comment so she wouldn't lose her job. Investigator Caiati will testify that Ms. Engle even stated that she observed Respondent write the comments on Facebook. Principal Esposito will also testify that she had a subsequent conference with Respondent and questioned her about Joanne Engle's statement. When faced with her own deceit, Respondent stated what's the charge. What did I do wrong? Isn't there freedom of speech? Principal Esposito will further testify that Respondent stated that she did not use a DOE computer and asked where is it written I can't say anything about my students. No one got hurt. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 abuse or inappropriate comments on Facebook. Back in April of 2009, while supervising and in-house suspension period with two students, R.K. and J.H., the evidence will establish the Respondent grabbed J.H. by the back of the neck and wrestled him to the ground because he grabbed her cellphone. Principal Esposito, R.K., J.H., and Respondent's own written statement about the incident will establish that J.H. ended up on the ground, crying, with a bloody nose. The Department will not deny that J.H. was acting inappropriately during this detention. But the real question is should a student be tackled to the floor and left crying with a bloody nose because he grabbed a teacher's cellphone? The testimony will establish that Respondent also verbally admonished J.H. by stating "Don't touch my fucking shit". At the conclusion of the hearing, the evidence will clearly reveal Respondent's inability to conduct herself in a professional and in an appropriate manner expected of all New York City Public School teachers. The Department will prove each of the specifications charged beyond a preponderance of the evidence and establish that Respondent violated Chancellor's regulations, the New
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96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 Furthermore, the evidence will prove that Respondent's inappropriate Facebook comments, lying to the principal, and attempting to impede the official SCI investigation by getting her friend to lie on her behalf doesn't paint the full picture of Respondent's unprofessional, inappropriate behavior while assigned to P.S. 203. On June 28th, 2010, approximately five days after Respondent posted the inappropriate comments in her Facebook page about her devil's spawn students, Respondent was notified, on the last day of school, by Principal Esposito, that she had received a U rating for the 2009-2010 school year. Respondent was upset and refused to sign the rating sheet. The evidence will prove that Respondent blamed her U rating and unsatisfactory evaluation on a fifth grade student named A.S. A.S. will testify that Respondent approached her later that day in the cafeteria and stated "Your mom can try to get me fired all she wants but it's not happening." The evidence will establish that A.S. immediately reported this incident to Principal Esposito before even leaving the school that day. Respondent's conduct isnt limited to verbal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 York City Charter, and basic standards of conduct for all employees of the New York City Department of Education. Under these facts, the Department will further establish that discipline is warranted under Education Law 3020-a and there is just cause for the Respondent's termination. At the conclusion of this case, I ask for the only finding consistent with evidence--with the evidence and testimony presented, a finding that Respondent is unfit to perform her obligation properly and the only just recourse is termination from service. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass, would you make your opening now or would you reserve until your case in chief? MR. GLASS: I want to make a brief opening at this point. First of all, you're going to hear a much different--you're going to see a much different Christine Rubino than what's described by Mr. Gamils. Let me introduce Christine Rubino. She's been teaching for the DOE for 14 years, since 1996. She's been at the same elementary school the whole time, P.S. 203. She's a math specialist of third and fourth grade. Fifth grade, she's taught. She's taught
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99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 younger teachers who come into the school. She's got a mentoring license to help younger teachers. She has two children, school age children about the same age as Nicole, who's referenced here. She has a seven and eight-year-old girl and boy. No prior disciplinary charges, always satisfactory ratings until this incident referenced in this case, no attendance, lateness, letters to file. She's got a four-year degree from Brooklyn College, a master's in math education. This is typical DOE being overzealous. You're going to see this. You've seen this before, you'll see it again. You're going to be shocked by the investigator's bullying of witnesses to get results that they want to--you know, to get desired results. This also raises some interesting first amendment issues about there is--as you know, there is no Facebook policy. This was not intended for public dissemination, what she commented on. And what could have been done to get this--why this--why we're here when this could have just basically been saying, you know, take it off. You know, why they turned this into a grand inquisition, you're going to question 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 doesn't even suggest why this comment would be said. So, at the end of the day, I think you're going to hear a much different case. You're going to see that this is typically just SCI justifying why they get paid, you know. It's to take little incidents and bang them into grand inquisitions when literally this could have been, you know what, you should take this off your page. This could be reflective--reflect -- of the Department, please pull it off. And she did anyway. So you'll see that, you know, they don't-they turn little incidents and turn them into these grand inquisitions. So I'm confident, at the end of the day, you'll see that this is not worthy of any substantial discipline. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Your first witness, Mr. Gamils? MR. GAMILS: The Department would be calling Investigator Robert Caiati. THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you spell that for me? MR. GAMILS: C-I-A-T-I, I believe. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. MR. GAMILS: Let me just verify that.
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100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 this at the end of the day. Also, these other incidents referenced were not even incidents until they needed to bolster this case, to come forward with something to bring against Ms. Rubino. I mean the 2009 incident with J.H., you'll hear, was based on a kid who touched her breasts and was completely out of control. And there's--the Department itself has produced, you know, numerous documents where they couldn't even keep the kid in the school and the principal, you know, was not even going to report this incident. And she remained in the classroom until this past month, this February. So these Facebook comments and the threat, the danger--the Board didn't even perceive it as a danger because they left her in the classroom the whole time. Even when the Facebook comment came out, they left her there for another three months. You know, and this whole Nicole thing, we're very curious. There's nothing in the--in the discovery to really reveal why she would even make this comment, is totally out of context and we don't really understand. You know, we'd like to hear what the evidence is on that because the discovery provided 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's all right. I'll ask him to spell it because I always like to have a little head start. MR. GAMILS: I missed it. C-I--I'm sorry, C-A-I-A-T-I. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning. Please state and spell your name, for the record. MR. ROBERT CAIATI: Robert Caiati, C-A-I-AT-I. THE HEARING OFFICER: Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth? MR. CAIATI: I do. THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. MR. GAMILS: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GAMILS Q. Mr. Caiati, where are you currently employed? A. Special Commissioner of Investigation for the New York City School District.
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103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. And how long have you been employed with the Special Commissioner's Office? A. About two and a half years. Q. And what is your current assignment with Special Commissioner's Office? A. I am an investigator. Q. And what duties and responsibilities does that involve? A. We have cases assigned to us and we're responsible to investigate those cases to some sort of conclusion. Q. As--is this your first assignment as an investigator? A. No. Q. Where did you work previously? A. I was a police officer for the city of White Plains Police Department for 20 years prior to this. Q. And what were your assignments by the White Plains Police Department? A. For the last 15 years, I was a detective. Q. And approximately how many cases do you investigate a year with the Special Commissioner's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS assigned a case. The case will have certain information. We'll look over the information to decide how we're going to proceed. The first thing I usually do is get the pedigree information on the subject. So we go into the computer, pull the current pedigree information that's on the computer on the subject. We add that to the case. We memorialize it in the report. And then we start interviewing witnesses. Q. Now, do you know someone by the name of Christine Rubino? A. I am aware of Ms. Rubino. Q. Was a case ever assigned to you with the name Christine Rubino? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And can you tell us what occurred when that case was assigned to you? A. The case was assigned to me, I believe, on June 29th, 2010. Based on the information that I had, the first things that I did was pull Ms. Rubino's pedigree information off the computer. It showed that she lived, I believe, at 1864 Ryder Street, Brooklyn, New York. Q. Now, going back to your original
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104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Office? A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 or more. Q. And can you explain what the term substantiate means? A. It means that the--you've found reasonable grounds to substantiate the allegation against the individual that the case is of. Q. And, out of the 40 case--approximately 40 cases per year that you are assigned, how many of those are substantiated? A. Approximately half. Q. And do you know the numbers for the entire SCI office? A. The last that I was advised, I believe that our office unsubstantiates a little less than half of the cases that come to the office. Q. Now, during an investigation, what activities do you engage in, typically? A. Excuse me. You need to be more specific. Q. During an investigation, what are you job duties? What do you do during an investigation? A. Well, when we first--we will be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS assignment, are you familiar with a document called a case form? A. Yes. Q. What is a case form? A. A case form is the document that when a complaint is taken by our complaint personnel, they write it up on the complaint form. They take the specific allegations, write it up on the complaint form that's placed in the case folder. And that's one of the documents that comes to us with the case folder. Q. And the person who draws it up, is that also an employee of the Special Commissioner's Office? A. Yes. Q. And once that case form is received by you, what happens to it? A. Well, I take a look at it and I decide where I'm going--what I'm going to be--what direction I'm going to take with my investigation. Q. And is that case form created in every case that SCI assigns? A. Yes. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to ask to have this
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107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS marked as Department's Exhibit 5-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] 5? MR. GAMILS: --for identification. I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. Can I hand a copy to the witness? THE HEARING OFFICER: You may. Q. Mr. Caiati, do you recognize that form? A. Yes, I do. Q. Can you tell us what it is? A. It is a copy of the case form from the case against Ms. Rubino. Q. And is this--does the case--is the case form kept in the SCI file? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. And is that--does that occur with every SCI case? A. Yes, it does. Q. And, to the best of your knowledge, has this case form been changed or altered in any way since you received it and placed in the case form? A. Not that I can tell. Q. With the exception of the redactment? A. Right. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Do you recall what those documents were? A. It was an email that, I believe, contained the inappropriate comments that were being investigated. MR. GAMILS: I'd have this marked as Department's Exhibit 6 for identification. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's for-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] That's correct. I have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. Q. Investigator Caiati--can I proceed? THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. Q. Investigator Caiati, are you familiar with an individual by the name of O'Mahoney? A. Yes, I am. Q. And can you tell us who that is? A. General Mahoney works in our complaint room. He is one of the employees who takes complaints. Q. And what are some of his job obligations and duties? A. He is responsible to answer the phones and take complaints from--you know, take calls and then document the complaints on that case form that
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108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Right. MR. GAMILS: At this time, the Department would like to enter this as Department's Exhibit 5. MR. GLASS: Just real quick, a voir dire. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. Did you prepare this form or someone else did? A. No, someone else did. MR. GLASS: It's a hearsay--just an objection based on hearsay. But if it's part of the investigation-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I'll allow it, DOE 5. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 5 is admitted into evidence] MR. GAMILS: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Now, in this specific case of teacher Christine Rubino, did you receive any other documents at the time the case was assigned to, besides the case form? A. Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS you referred to earlier. And then he takes the completed case form and it gets sent to his superior, who then decides what's going to happen with the case, if it's going to--if it's going to be taken as a case, who it's going to be assigned to and, if not, what agency it's going to be referred to. Q. Besides speaking to the individual making a complaint, does he do anything else in regards to receiving that information? A. No, he creates the case form that--as I stated. And he will reach out to the complainant and try and obtain further documentation, if it's called for. Q. In this case, did Mr. O'Mahoney obtain any additional information besides the case form on this matter? A. Yes. Q. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Department's Exhibit 6 for identification. Do you recognize that? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what it is? A. It is the--one of the forms that was in the case. I think that Mr. O'Mahoney received it
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111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS from--I don't know who he received it from--with the comments that apparently came from Ms. Rubino's Facebook. Q. Did there come a time when you learned who sent this document to Mr. O'Mahoney? A. I believe it was the principal. Q. And where was-A. [Interposing] Actually, assistant principal. Q. And who was that? A. Brian Sadowski. Q. And, once this was received, where was it placed? A. In the case file. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I'd like to have this entered as Department's Exhibit 6. MR. GLASS: I would object to this. I mean we're talking about--he's not even part of this. O'Mahoney is the one receiving this. And there's-there could be--there could be testimony as to what was obtained, what this is. You know, he's not really the appropriate witness to be putting this in. I mean it's part of--I can understanding the other report, the report that's part of their official 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS and you were assigned the case, you began to tell us what your steps were. Can you then explain to us what your first step was? A. I went into the computer to pull Ms. Rubino's pedigree information. I got the most recent pedigree information that we have and I memorialized that in a report that also goes into the case. MR. GAMILS: I'd have this marked as Department's Exhibit 7 for identification. I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. MR. GAMILS: There may be information on this form that should be redacted prior to entering it as an exhibit. THE HEARING OFFICER: I was about to say there's certain information on here that I don't need to have and I will-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I have-THE HEARING OFFICER: --self-redact because I'm going to give my copy to the state. I'm not--even though -- to be something that's in evidence yet, but just I shouldn't have this information, period. MR. GLASS: Yeah, I just--I just question. Is there a need to put this document in at all?
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112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS investigation, but this is-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] -- . MR. GLASS: We don't--he's testifying to what O'Mahoney is telling him. So it's like double hearsay. MR. GAMILS: Well, in response to that, Mr. O'Mahoney is also an employee of the Special Commissioner's Office. He's familiar with his job obligations and duties. And this was created in the ordinary course of business and placed in the SCI file, which is standard protocol, which I believe Mr. Caiati testified to. Mr. Sadowski is also testifying. So, if we want to enter it subject to his testimony, since he's the one that sent it, that may be more appropriate. But I don't think that should limit the introduction at this time. THE HEARING OFFICER: No, I'll allow it, 6. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 6 is admitted into evidence] Q. Can you tell us what the allegation was when you received the case? A. The allegation was the Ms. Rubino made inappropriate comments on her Facebook page. Q. Now, once you received the case form 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Because it's just pedigree information. I don't think there's any dispute about this. That doesn't say anything other than her name and address, so. THE HEARING OFFICER: I redacted the social security number because that is none of my business. MR. GLASS: No, I'm just saying that the whole form is-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] If that's the objection, Department believes that we do have a responsibility to establish that there was a proper investigation done on this matter. This was a step that investigator Caiati took during his investigation. They are--it is contained in the official SCI file. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. MR. GAMILS: Therefore, the Department believes it's actually our obligation to introduce it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I understand. I mean it's created to show that an investigation was done. But this document, it seems somewhat vain and it doesn't need to be part of the record, is my position. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, it doesn't need to be a part of the record because all of the
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115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS information is elsewhere on the record. It doesn't need to be part of the record because it's not evidentiary in nature. I mean if Mr. Gamils is representing that he's trying to put in, I guess, piece-by-piece, the SCI file, that's what he says he's trying to do. So why would it not be an appropriate document? MR. GLASS: I think both of what you suggested. The information is elsewhere on the record. It's not going to weight into a determination whether a proper investigation was done by taking pedigree information. I don't think the document needs to be entered. That's what I feel. And it's enough--it doesn't have--it doesn't advance the investigation. It just means they established that she works for the DOE. MR. GAMILS: If Mr. Glass will stipulate that Mr.--Investigator Caiati obtained Ms. Rubino's address and that she lives at 1864 Ryder Street in Brooklyn New York, then technically the document isn't necessarily, as long as that's the stipulation. MR. GLASS: That's fine. Why don't we do that? THE HEARING OFFICER: Fine. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS THE HEARING OFFICER: That's okay. MS. RUBINO: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's all right. Go ahead. Something--you were saying something about a link? I'm sorry. A. The form that I received from Principal Esposito not only contained the comments, but contained a link which is basically the account number for the Facebook account that the comment was coming from. Ms. Esposito advised me that on the 24th she was advised by Assistant Principal Sadowski that he had received these comments, along with the link, from another party at the time, who wanted to remain nameless but is now identified as David Senatore. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. Just for my own identification purposes, is that what would have been redacted out in the report? A. I'm not sure. MR. GAMILS: Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: And would you, if you could, again, for my own benefit, please spell that for me. David, I assume is David but-A. [Interposing] David, I believe it is S-E-N-A-T-O-R-E.
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116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. After--Mr. Caiati, after invest--after obtaining Ms. Rubino's contact information through human resources, what other steps did you take in this investigation? A. I then interviewed Principal Lisa Esposito and assistant principal Brian Sadowski. Q. And what did you learn from your interview with Principal Esposito? A. Principal Esposito provided me with another--with a copy of the comments on the Facebook page that--those comments actually provided a link, which is the--sort of like the Facebook account number. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. Ms. Rubino, I've allowed it until now. But I can't have your words appearing on the transcript. MS. RUBINO: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: If you need to speak with your attorney, either lean over and whisper to him or pass him a note. MS. RUBINO: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay? But I do not-MS. RUBINO: [Interposing] I didn't know notes are okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS THE HEARING OFFICER: I won't hold you to it, but now that I have it written. Thank you. MR. GAMILS: Just for clarification, Mr. Senatore is testifying tomorrow. So we will be able to obtain that information then. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. A. So-Q. [Interposing] Let me just stop you right there, Mr. Caiati. MR. GAMILS: I'd like to have this marked as Department's Exhibit, are we going to say 7? THE HEARING OFFICER: We'll call it 7 since we didn't even get past the identification stage 7. So, yes, let's call this one 7. MR. GAMILS: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: Just to keep it orderly. MR. GAMILS: Can you please hand that to the Hearing Officer, please? I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand the witness what's been marked for identification as Department's Exhibit 7.
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119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Mr. Caiati, do you recognize that document? A. Yes, I do. It's the document I received from Principal Esposito. Q. Okay. And when she gave you this document, what was she representing that it was? A. That this was the posting that came off of Ms. Rubino's Facebook page. Q. And what did you do with this document after you received it? A. I eventually put it into my case file. Q. Okay. And do you typically collect evidence from witnesses during the course of an investigation? A. Yes, we do. Q. And is that--are those documents placed into the SCI file? A. Yes, they are. Q. And is that SCI file maintained at the office of Special Commissioner? A. Yes, it is. Q. And, besides the redacting that was done on the pages, has this document been changed or altered in any way? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS in as 7 and I would assume that somebody is going to come and testify as to its very purpose in this whole thing. But since I understand you're putting it in as part of the file-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Simply putting it in at this time as part of his investigation. THE HEARING OFFICER: 7. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 7 is admitted into evidence] DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Investigator Caiati, once you received this document--well, what information did you learn from this document? A. Well, the information that I learned from this document is the comments themselves, the name of the sender and there is an ID number on these-on this form that will link back to the Facebook account holder. Q. Did there ever come a time where you entered the Facebook--this Facebook account number? Now, are you--and just for clarification purposes, what number are you referring to? A. Right after ID you'll see a number
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120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. No. Q. Is that the way you received it? A. Yes. MR. GAMILS: At this time, the Department would like to move this document, which has been marked for identification, into evidence as Department's Exhibit 7. MR. GLASS: Just to clarify a few things. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. How did you first get this post, this particular document? A. This came from the principal. Q. Okay. And you didn't modify this in any way? A. No. Q. All right. MR. GLASS: My objection is, again, it's hearsay. It's just to be subject to connection of witnesses that have knowledge about this. I guess it's part of the file but I'm going to ask that this bear no weight until someone connects it with knowledge. THE HEARING OFFICER: Indeed. I'll allow it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS that says 1151397116. THE HEARING OFFICER: Hold on. Oh, I see. Okay, I'm sorry. In the middle of the page? A. Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Q. And can you explain the significance of that number? A. Well, that ID number identifies the holder of that Facebook account. Q. And did there come a time where you found out who or what name is associated with that Facebook account number? A. Yes, I eventually did. Q. And whose name was that? A. Christine Rubino. Q. Now, after you received this document and you spoke with Principal Esposito, what did you do? A. I then spoke with Principal Sadowski. Q. And what did you learn from speaking with Principal--I'm sorry. A. Assistant Principal. Q. From Assistant Principal Sadowski? A. Assistant Principal Sadowski advised
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123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS me that on June 24th--or on June 23rd, excuse me. June 23rd, 2010, he was sent those comments, along with a link to Ms. Rubino's Facebook page by Mr. Senatore. Mr. Sadowski stated that he clicked on the link and it brought him directly to Ms. Rubino's Facebook page. He stated, after seeing that, he emailed that document to his work email and the next day, the 24th, he presented it to Principal Esposito. Q. Now, I'm going to hand you, again, what's been marked as Department Exhibit 7. Can you tell us, there is a second number on the page, correct? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what that is? A. It's whoever she was commenting-whoever she was speaking with, whoever she was having this conversation with on Facebook. Q. Did you learn who, the name associated with that account number? A. The name associated with it on the page is Scott J. Lavine. During my interview with Principal Esposito, I asked if anybody by the name of Scott Lavine worked in the school and she told me no. I also asked if a child by the name of Kwami goes to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS document? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what it is? A. It is the email that Ms. Rubino sent to me. Q. And that was sent to--how was that sent to you? A. It was sent to my work email. Q. And, once you received it, what did you do with the document? A. I placed a copy in -- . Q. And has this email been changed at all, in any way, since you received it? A. No. MR. GAMILS: At this time, we would like to have this entered as Department's Exhibit 8. MR. GLASS: I'm not objecting that it's part of the case file. I don't see the relevance of it. But I don't--I don't object to the fact that it's part of the case file. THE HEARING OFFICER: 8. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 8 is admitted into evidence] Q. Now, Investigator Caiati, what was the
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124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS the school and she told me no. Q. Now, did there come a time where you entered this number, the 1151397116 number, to bring you to a Facebook page? A. Yes. Q. And what occurred when you did that? A. It was the Facebook of Christine Rubino. Q. Now, after speaking to Assistant Principal Sadowski, what did you do? A. The 8th of July of 2010, I responded to 1864 Ryder Street in Brooklyn to see if I could speak to Ms. Rubino. No one was home. I left a card. The following day, the 9th, I received an email at my job where Ms. Rubino basically stated she didn't know what it was in reference to, so she wouldnt speak to me until she spoke to an attorney. And that email that it was sent from was rubino1864@optonline.net. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to ask to have this document marked as Department's Exhibit 8 for identification. I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. I'm going to hand the witness what's been marked as Department's Exhibit 8 for identification. Q. Mr. Caiati, do you recognize that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS significance of receiving an email from Christine Rubino with this email address, rubino1864@optonline.com? A. Sometime in later July, I subpoenaed the Facebook records based on that ID number that I spoke about earlier. Q. Just to go over that, can you explain what you did to request information from Facebook? A. I created a subpoena. Again, that ID number was what Facebook requires that you give them in order for them to get the specific account you're talking about. I also requested posts for the entire day of June 23rd, 2010. The subpoena was signed off on and was faxed to Facebook. It took me several months to get it back. I didn't get it back until September. When I got it back, the information, the dates were wrong but the email address that the account is linked to came back as rubino1864@optonline.net, showing a direct connection from that Facebook account to Ms. Rubino. I then subpoenaed Optimum Online. Q. Well, let me just stop you right there. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to ask to have this
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127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS packet marked as Department's Exhibit 9 for identification. I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. Would the Hearing Officer suggest marking the entire document as one exhibit? THE HEARING OFFICER: I would, unless there is a reason to mark each page individually. MR. GAMILS: I don't believe there is. THE HEARING OFFICER: I see that there--that there is a number of pages. But if this is a subpoena, along with what he received, I would just assume keeping this one document, rather than complicating the record with a bunch of A through triple Z. MR. GAMILS: I've only got one thing to clarify, and I believe the witness will testify to this, is that this includes two different submissions he received from Facebook under the same subpoena. So one--bate stamp 191 to--no, I'm sorry. It's a little bit out of order. 169 to 184 is one packet and then 146 to 161 is another packet. The numbers are a little bit out of order, and I apologize for that. THE HEARING OFFICER: It's okay. Go ahead, continue your questioning. MR. GAMILS: I'm handing the witness what's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS what did you do? A. I placed them in the case file. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I'd like to have these marked as Department's Exhibit 9. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I'm not really clear if he established what they really show. The testimony--my understanding is he got a Facebook subpoena-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Do you want a voir dire. MR. GLASS: --and they sent this information. THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you--are you asking to voir dire? MR. GLASS: Yeah, if I could, I guess. THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. I mean what--let's take a look at page 169. What does--what does this document reflect, in your mind? A. These documents reflect the date and specific time that postings were made on the account. Every time a posting is made, it is documented and the
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128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS been marked Department's Exhibit 9 for identification. Q. Mr. Caiati, do you recognize those documents? A. Yes, I do. Q. Okay. Can you explain to us what they are? A. They are the results of the subpoena that I sent to Facebook. The reason that Mr. Gamils stated there are two submissions is the original submission on the dates, they sent me the wrong date information. I had to request the proper information thereafter. And it took a while but then I received the right information. Both times, however, the information linked the account to Ms. Rubino's email account at Opt Online. Q. And when you say the account, what are you referring to? A. Her email account at Opt Online. Q. Was linked to what? A. To her Facebook account. Q. Did you receive any additional documents from Facebook in response to your subpoena? A. No, just the two submissions. Q. And, after receiving those documents, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS IP address is assigned to it. Sometimes that IP address is the same, sometimes it's a revolving IP address. It depends on where the posts are coming from. If they're coming from a hard line computer, it should stay the same, for the most part. If they're coming from a blackberry, you will keep seeing different IP addresses because they will just keep assigning a new IP address every time a new post is made. Q. And how are you aware of this information? A. Just through, you know, my prior dealings with these types of investigations. Q. Did Facebook provide any explanation or they just turned over the documents? A. No, they just turned over the documents. Q. So, for example, where it says IP-maybe like the fourth entry, IP 24.188.110.228, what does that reflect? What is that showing? A. That is showing that that IP address was assigned to that transmission and, if you go down a little further, you'll even see another one that's a little bit different. Okay? 2418611328, that's
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131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS probably an--at that point, that's an incoming. Okay? Some of these, if you go further out, okay, you will see several, I mean dozens and dozens of IP addresses. And those are revolving IP addresses that are assigned. Usually, when you see that, you know you have some sort of phone, Blackberry or something, where they can make posts because then the company just assigns random IP addresses to every single-every single time you make a post or you send something or you receive something. And they'll assign an IP address to that. Q. Well, that one particular entry I'm asking about, what is that showing? Is it showing that she received a post, she sent a post, she got-she's on Facebook generally? A. Yes, she was on Facebook at that time. Okay? It gives you--it gives you the date and it gives you the specific time. Q. And what is she doing on Facebook at that time? A. I have no idea what comments or what content is being posted or received. I just know that at that time there is activity on that account, at that specific date and time. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS sent by Facebook? A. In the very beginning, they sent me the wrong dates. And I had to request that they send me the proper dates. Q. You mean July rather than June? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. July rather than June. Q. And the second--starting at page 147, it's a different format. What does this reflect? Is this just the corrected dates? A. Well, these are the corrected dates but this also shows--it's just sort of a different format but it's pretty much the same thing. But this is where you really--you'll see a lot, as you go through these, you will see several different--you'll see some that are the same and those some that are the same are probably the landline computer. And the ones that are different are most likely the Blackberry. Q. What is the 1151397116? A. These are just IP addresses that are assigned. Basically, IP address--when they assign an IP address, that's just allowing you to gain access to the internet to send your comment or receive the
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132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Could that activity be just reading Facebook comments, other people's Facebook comments? A. Not--there's a possibility. But you've got to understand, in order for it to generate an IP address, in order for it to generate it, okay, some sort of activity has to be going on. Okay? So just maybe logging on to read, possibly, sending, possibly. I can't tell you specifically what it is. I can only tell you the dates and times that the activity took place. I can't give you the specifics of that activity. Q. So all you can really say is some action regarding use of Facebook was happening? A. Correct. Q. And it could be on a Blackberry. It could be on a-A. [Interposing] It could be. Q. It could be on any computer-A. [Interposing] But it's--but it's assigning itself. It's logging itself into that account because every one of these posts, every one of these uses, for lack of a better term, are all for Ms. Rubino's Facebook account. Q. You said there was some misinformation 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS comment from point A to point B. Q. That's in the last column? The last column is the IP address, right? A. Yes. The last comment is the IP address. Q. What about the column to the left, do you know what that is? THE HEARING OFFICER: The middle column? A. That's the account number. THE HEARING OFFICER: I think we're getting a little past voir dire, Mr. Glass. MR. GLASS: All right. I'm just trying to understand what this document was. All right. As part of the investigative file that he received, I don't have an objection based on that. I mean I'm not sure he's an expert on what it means, but-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] DOE 9. Go ahead. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 9 is admitted into evidence] DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Mr. Caiati, just to go over--you can look at page 169 of Department's Exhibit 9, please?
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135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS THE HEARING OFFICER: 169? MR. GAMILS: Which is the second page. THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, okay. Q. Even--just for clarification. Even though these have the wrong dates on it, what information did you learn from that first submission your received? A. This account was linked to Ms. Rubino's Optimum Online email. Q. And did that first submission show you if Ms. Rubino was logged on to Facebook on June 23rd, 2010? A. The first submission? No. Q. Did you ultimately received a second submission? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And would I be correct that that would be reflected in what's bate stamped 146 to 161 of Department's Exhibit 9? A. Yes. Q. And, based on that information, was Ms. Rubino logged onto Facebook on June 23rd, 2010? A. Yes. MR. GLASS: Can I just ask one clarification 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Do you know who's email address that is? A. Ms. Rubino's. Q. Now, after receiving this information from Facebook, were there any other steps that you took during your investigation? A. Yes. I subpoenaed Optimum Online with the email address rubino1864@optonline.net. And it came back to Ms. Rubino. Q. And who did you subpoena for that information? A. Optimum Online but they go by another name who I'm not--off the top of my head, don't know. Q. Is there anything I can provide you that would refresh your recollection? A. The subpoena would probably work. MR. GAMILS: Let the record reflect I'm handing the a witness a copy of this. A. CSC Holdings, LLC. Q. And who is CSC Holding, LLC? A. They're the ones who take the subpoenas for Optimum Online. MR. GLASS: Can we get--do we get copies of it?
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136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS question? I'm sure that it would be part of the voir dire based on is testimony. MR. GAMILS: I don't believe this is crossexamination. MR. GLASS: But it's part of this clarification of what he was doing. So I just--well, just my question was how he knows it's linked to the Optimum Online account. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I don't know that we've gotten there yet. He said he learned that. I didn't hear that as a question that Mr. Gamils has asked yet. So maybe we'll find that out. MR. GAMILS: That's the question I would ask. Q. How did you learn that this account was linked to the email address rubino1864@optonline.net? A. It's at the very top of the first page, page 169. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. A. You will see email rubino1864@optonline.net, the very top, go all the way to the top. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. Go ahead. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GAMILS: Im going to ask to have this marked just for identification. THE HEARING OFFICER: 10? MR. GAMILS: As Department's Exhibit 10, correct. I'm going to hand the witness a copy of what's been marked Department's Exhibit 10 for identification. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize that document? A. I do. Q. Can you tell us what it is? A. It is the subpoena I sent to CSC Holdings for the account information assigned to the email address rubino1864@optonline.net. Q. And did you receive a response to that subpoena? A. I did. Q. And is that response included in that document? A. Yes, it is. Q. And what did you learn from the response? A. That that email address belongs to subscriber Christine Rubino at 1864 Ryder Street,
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139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Brooklyn New York. Q. And, once you received that information from CSC Holdings, what did you do with the document? A. Placed it in the case file. Q. And is that case file maintained at the Office of the Special Commissioner? A. Yes, it is. Q. And has this--have these documents been changed or--changed or altered in any way since you put them in the case file? A. No, sir. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I would like to have this marked as Department's Exhibit 10. THE HEARING OFFICER: Admitted, you mean? MR. GAMILS: Correct. THE HEARING OFFICER: It's marked. MR. GAMILS: I'm sorry. THE HEARING OFFICER: It's okay. MR. GLASS: As part of the investigative file, I have no objection. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it as 10. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 10 is admitted into evidence] 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS exhibits. MR. GLASS: I understand. THE HEARING OFFICER: Good. As long as we're all on-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Those are my objections to it. THE HEARING OFFICER: As long as we're all on the same page. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. MR. GLASS: My objection, just to be clear, it's hearsay. THE HEARING OFFICER: Yep. MR. GLASS: He didnt produce the document. THE HEARING OFFICER: Right. MR. GLASS: He received it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Understood. MR. GLASS: But I understand it's part of the file, so. THE HEARING OFFICER: Right. Q. After receiving confirmation that that email address was linked to Christine Rubino, did you take any additional steps in your investigation? A. Yes, I interviewed David Senatore. Q. And who is David Senatore?
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140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Now, after receiving the information of-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Just to clarify, I understand when you say you'll allow-you'll accept certain things. I'm allowing them and I'm accepting them for what I accept them as. But I note what you say each time. Okay? Just so we're clear. MR. GLASS: Im not clear what you mean by that. Do you mean you're-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Well, you say if it's part of the investigative file. I have no idea if it's going to be used for some other purpose in the future and I'm not limiting it to what you're acknowledging at the moment. I'm allowing it as 10. You said the same thing with the last records as well. MR. GLASS: Yeah. I mean I meant to say these are hearsay documents. He didn't create the documents. THE HEARING OFFICER: And I understand that. But I'm allowing them as 10 and 9 and 8 and so forth and so on. I acknowledge what you're saying but understand I'm the one who sets the parameters for the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. David Senatore was--before was known as the confidential witness and provided-Q. [Interposing] Sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. A. He was the individual who provided this document, the original document, to AP Sadowski. Q. And, during your interview with David Senatore, what did you learn? A. Mr. Senatore said he was one of Ms. Rubino's Facebook friends, which means he was able to see any content on her Facebook page. On June 23rd, 2010, he saw these comments, felt them to be highly inappropriate, and contacted Assistant Principal Sadowski and also sent the comments along with the link to Ms. Rubino's Facebook page to Mr. Sadowski. Q. And did he tell you what the comments were? A. I don't recall if he made specific reference to the comments or not. Q. And then after speaking with Mr. Senatore, where did--did you take any additional steps during the investigation? A. At that point, I substantiated my case. I wrote up a final report, which was sent to my
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143 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS superiors. And they created a recommendation report based on my investigation. Q. Now, of all the steps that we just discussed in the investigation, are those memorialized in any way? A. Yes, they are. Q. And how were they memorialized? A. All the reports that I created during the course of my investigation. Q. And is that a--doing that is what you have to complete during every investigation? A. Yes. Every investigative step must be memorialized. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand--ask to have this packet marked as Department's Exhibit 11 for identification. I have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. I'm handing the witness what's been marked for identification as Department's Exhibit 11. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize that packet of documents? A. I do. Q. Can you tell us what they are? A. These are the reports that I created during my investigation. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS identification into evidence. MR. GLASS: Just some voir dire. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. Did you type all these documents yourself? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Personi edit them in any way? A. No. Q. You did it on the dates that are referenced? A. Yes. Q. Each date? Did anyone else have input on the documents? Mr. Moore [phonetic] didn't have any input in the documents? A. No. MR. GLASS: Same objection I've had to some of the hearsay aspects, especially item number ten. I'm not disputing that he created these documents. THE HEARING OFFICER: Noted, 11. And for the purpose of consistency, I will redact out information on item two that I do not need to have, mainly the social security number, which is not inappropriate for you to have given to me, but
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144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. And what do those reports reflect? A. All the steps that I took during this investigation. Q. And on yours--there's signature on there. There's another signature? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us whose signature that is? A. My team leader, Mike Personi [phonetic]. Q. And why is his signature on the documents? A. Because he's my immediate supervisor. He reviews my reports. He signs off on them prior to them going up the line. Q. Now, taking the opportunity to look at those documents, have they been changed or altered in any way since you created them? A. No. Q. And, after you created them and you signed off on them, what happens then? A. They're placed in the case file. MR. GAMILS: At this time, Department would like to move Department's Exhibit 11 for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS unnecessary for me to have. MR. GLASS: How about the phone number? Is that necessary? THE HEARING OFFICER: That's everywhere. MR. GLASS: What's that? THE HEARING OFFICER: That's everywhere. MR. GLASS: It's not really that relevant. THE HEARING OFFICER: 11. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 11 is admitted into evidence] THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead, Mr. Gamils. MR. GAMILS: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Now, after completing those case files--I'm sorry, those case memos, what is a final report? A. A final report is where you take a-you make basically a synopsis of all your investigative steps. You put them down on one report. And that report is submitted to my superiors, that they can create a recommendation based on my investigation. Q. Did you ultimately make a final report
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147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS in this matter? A. I did. Q. And what was your final conclusion? A. I substantiated the case against Ms. Rubino, that the comments were inappropriate. Q. Specifically, what did you substantiate? A. That Ms. Rubino made inappropriate comments about her students on Facebook. Q. And what led you to believe that the comments were inappropriate? A. They were inflammatory. She basically stated that she hates her kids. And the part about taking them to the beach doesn't sound like such a bad idea came on the heels of the day before in which a New York City student drowned at Long Beach. So they were pretty inappropriate. Q. Now, during your testimony, you stated that you inquired if a student by the name of Kwami went to P.S. 203? A. Yes. Q. You learned that there was not a student by that name at that school? A. Correct. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. And when you substantiate a case at the Special Commissioner's Office, is a final report created in every one of those circumstances? A. This report or the subsequent report? Q. No, no, no. Do you create a final report in every case? A. Every case. Q. And what happens to the final report after you create it? A. It is sent to my superiors. Q. And then where does it go? A. Well, if it's unsubstantiated it's not going to go anywhere. If it's substantiated, they'll make a recommendation report, which gets sent to the Chancellor's office, gets sent to Office of Legal Services, gets sent to Department of Investigation and, in criminal matters, it can get sent to the DA's office. Q. And what information did you use to create this final report? A. The reports that I had written during the investigation. Q. And, looking at that document which has been marked as Department's 12 for identification,
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148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. And what did that lead you to believe? A. It just--at that point, when I saw that on the report, I thought there may be a racial aspect to this. Q. And what led you to believe that? A. She could have said Johnny. Or whoever it was who was responding they could have said Johnny. They could have said Suzy, Sarah. Kwami just sounded a little racially based. MR. GAMILS: I ask to have this marked as Department's Exhibit 12 for identification. I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand the witness what's been marked for identification as Department Exhibit 12. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize that document? A. I do. Q. Can you tell us what it is? A. It is my final report. Q. Okay. And who--did you create this final report? A. I did. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS has it been changed or altered in any way since you created it? A. No. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I'd like to have Department's 12 moved into evidence. MR. GLASS: Just a couple of voir dire questions. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. When--what was the date you created this report? A. I'll have to look at my--I don't remember specifically what date it was created, shortly after the investigation was completed. Q. Can you have anything to refresh your recollection as to when it was created? It's important. A. Im not sure that anything that I have will refresh my recollection on precisely what date this report was created. Q. What month was it created? A. Say October of 2010. Q. Did you type this report yourself? A. Yes.
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151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Anyone edit it? You've got to say yes or no. A. No, sir. Q. And I see it's approved by Michael Personi. Does he edit it at all or he just kind of stamps it? A. No, he's my boss, so I have to send it through him. So he approves it. Q. But he doesn't edit it in any way? A. No. If there's any corrections that need to be made, I'll make them myself. He doesn't edit my reports. MR. GLASS: Same objection, the hearsay aspects of some of this. THE HEARING OFFICER: Noted, but I'll allow it, 12. I'm going to redact the social security number. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 12 is admitted into evidence] THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead, Mr. Gamils. DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. And you indicated that your supervisor received your final report? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GAMILS: Correct. I apologize for having to make you hand them over but it's a large table. May I hand the witness the exhibit? THE HEARING OFFICER: You may. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize what's been marked as Department's Exhibit 13 for identification? A. I do. Q. And what is that? A. It is the recommendation report. Q. And what was SCI's recommendation in this matter? A. The recommendation is that Ms. Rubino be terminated and be ineligible to work for the Department of Education. Q. And where is this recommendation report made in? A. In our office. A copy of it will stay with the case and Im not 100% sure what my superiors do with theirs. I'm sure it's maintained somewhere. Q. But there is a copy maintained in the case file? A. Yes, sir. MR. GAMILS: At this time, we'd like to have
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152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. Yes. Q. And what, if any, action do you--well, who is your supervisor? A. Regina Logeran [phonetic]. Q. And what, if any, action does she take when she receives your final report? A. She or one of the other attorneys in the office create a recommendation report that goes to the different agencies that I mentioned earlier. Q. And what information is included in that recommendation report? A. Well, my final report, as well as the recommendation from my superiors on what they feel should happen in this case. Q. And is that the final step that's typically taken in an SCI case? A. Yes. Q. And was a recommendation report created in this case? A. Yes, there was. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to have this marked as Department's Exhibit 12--I'm sorry, 13 for identification. THE HEARING OFFICER: Want me to -- ? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS document 13 for identification be moved into evidence. MR. GLASS: Just some voir dire. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. You didn't write this report in any way, correct? A. No. The--some of the, you know, the subject matter in the report comes from basically my reports. But did I specifically write that report? No, I did not. Q. Do you give the recommendation as to what-A. [Interposing] I don't give any recommendations at all. Q. As far as what should happen to the teacher? A. Nothing. I just conduct my investigation, send my report to my superiors, and they determine what should happen. Q. Do you do a final read of this before Ms. Logeran submits it? Do you do a final read or edit of this before-A. [Interposing] No. I mean I'll read it but I don't do--I don't edit their report.
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155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GLASS: My objection is that he didn't create the report. It's not the, you know--it's not that he doesn't have any knowledge of it but someone else wrote the report. He received it. So my objection would be based on that and hearsay. MR. GAMILS: I believe that Ms. Regina Logeran is also an employee of the Special Commissioner's Office. The witness did state that this is maintained and created in the ordinary course of business. It's created with every SCI case that is substantiated and it is placed in his case file. Therefore, I believe it is a proper business record and the information that is contained in it, I believe he also stated, is purely based on his investigation. Now, the recommendation is that of his supervisor, and I think the witness has clarified that he had no role in that recommendation. MR. GLASS: It deprives us of the ability to cross-examine the person making a recommendation and finding out what standard she's using. So, on that basis alone, I think it provides--I understand that it's part of his record. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. It was in my car. Q. And why was it in your car? A. Ms. Engle did not want myself or the investigator that was with me at the time, Mr. Moore, going to her office. So she asked that we conduct the interview outside. Since it was cold, we conducted it in the car. Q. Okay. And what did you learn during your interview with Joanne Engle? A. Ms. Engle stated that she and Ms. Rubino had been friends. They were childhood friends. And I asked Ms. Engle if she knew what Mr. Rubino did for a living. She said she was a teacher. I stated do you know what grade she taught. Ms. Engle said I think she teaches fifth grade. Ms. Engle then made the statement I think I got my friend in trouble. I asked her to elaborate on that and she stated--she went through an explanation that basically she constantly uses Mr. Rubino's computer and does do some Facebooking on Ms. Rubino's computer. She stated that on the date in question, June 23rd, 2010, Ms. Rubino had come home from work, from school, having had a bad day. And, at that point, Ms. Engle posted these comments on Ms. Rubino's Facebook account.
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156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS 12 is admitted into evidence] DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Now, you indicated that typically the final--this recommendation report is the final step taken in the SCI case, correct? A. Correct. Q. Was that the case on the case involving Christine Rubino? A. No. Q. Can you tell us what happened? Why not? A. In late November of 2010, I received word from the Office of Legal Services that Ms. Rubino had stated that she didn't post the comments, that somebody else, possibly a friend of hers by the name of Joanne Engle, had posted the comments on her Facebook account. Based on that, I obtained Ms. Engle's contact information. And on December 15th, 2010, I interviewed Ms. Engle. Q. And where did you interview Ms. Engle? A. On Divis [phonetic] Avenue, Brooklyn. Q. And was it a business location? Was it a private residence? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Now, Investigator Caiati, did you--did Ms. Engle indicate what activities she uses Ms. Rubino's Facebook page for? A. She likes to play Farmville, the game Farmville on Ms. Rubino's computer. Q. Did she say why she uses--well, just for clarification, is she using Ms. Rubino's computer or is she using Ms. Rubino's Facebook page? A. Facebook to play this--I don't know if it's the Facebook to play the Farmville game. I don't know how that works. Okay? I just know that Ms. Engle stated that many of Ms. Rubino's friends play that game. So she's playing it on Ms. Rubino's computer, not on her own. MR. GAMILS: And did she say--can we stop for a second? I don't believe it's appropriate for the Respondent to raise her hand. MS. RUBINO: I need to go to the bathroom. MR. GAMILS: Oh. THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record, please. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Ready?
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159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GAMILS: Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. I believe you were somewhere in the midst of explaining Farmville and that the person to whom you were speaking said that she uses Respondent's computer to play Farmville. I don't remember if you were about to ask a question but that's about where we were. MR. GAMILS: Well, we'll just start out with the-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Sure. Q. During this conversation that you were having with Joanne Engle, initially, what did she tell you? A. About the computer, going back to wherever you left off? Q. Going back to in relation to her conduct with Ms. Rubino. A. She stated that she thought she got Ms. Rubino in trouble. Q. Did she elaborate on that? A. She did. She stated that Ms. Rubino came home on the date in question, had a very bad day. And it was Ms. Engle who posted the inappropriate comments on Ms. Rubino's Facebook page. I asked Ms. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS stated in November Ms. Rubino came to her and advised Ms. Engle that she was in trouble, that a case conducted by my office had been substantiated against her regarding these comments. And Ms. Rubino asked Ms. Engle to take responsibility for the comments so that Ms. Rubino wouldnt get in trouble. Ms. Engle agreed. I asked Ms. Engle--I said why would she post such cruel comments, considering what had just taken place the day before. And she said I know, I told her not to do that. I tried to talk her out of it. I said, so you were there? And she said yes, I was. Q. Did she tell you anything else during the course of the conversation? A. Not that I can recall. Q. And, after this conversation, what did you do? A. I went back to--once I went back to my office, I memorialized it my report. MR. GAMILS: I'd have this marked as Department's Exhibit--I believe we're up to 14. THE HEARING OFFICER: 14, uh-huh. MR. GAMILS: For identification. And I do have a courtesy copy for Mr. Glass. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.
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160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS Engle what those comments were. She said something to the effect of my kids, taking them to the beach and I hate them. I said, listen, there's only two lines. You can't remember exactly what you said? No. I said, listen, do you--these--it doesn't sound like these comments came from you. It sounds like these came from a teacher. I don't believe that you posted these comments. Q. And then making that--drawing that conclusion, what did you do next? A. I advised her. I said listen. I said at some point you might be called to testify at a hearing resulting from this. And you are going to have to tell your story. If you lie at that hearing, you are opening yourself to criminal liability. Q. At that point, did she respond? A. Yeah. Well, she didn't respond right away. I said did you make those comments. Did you post those comments? And she said no. Q. Did she say anything else? A. I said to her, I said did Ms. Rubino make those comments. And she said yes. I said, well, why were you going to take the responsibility for those comments. She said sometime--I believe she 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GAMILS: I will hand the witness a copy. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize that memo? A. Yes. Q. What is it comprised of? A. The interview that I had with Joanne Engle. Q. And did you create this document? A. I did. Q. And, after you created it, what did you with the document? A. It became part of my case file. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I'd like to have this memo marked as--moved into evidence as Department's 14 under the same testimony as the other memos. I didn't go through it, but if you'd like me to, I will. MR. GLASS: Just voir dire. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. Everything here is your--is your words? A. Yes. Q. Is this report edited in any way?
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163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. No. Q. All right. And when did you write this in comparison to when you had the interview with Ms. Engle? A. The next day. Q. And you relied on your memory to do that? A. I had case notes. Q. You were taking notes when you spoke to Ms. Engle? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr--the other investigator have any input in this report? A. In the invest--in the interview or this report? No input in the report at all. Just so you understand, we are required to go out with two people. Okay? We don't go out to talk to anybody by ourselves. Okay? So there is always going to be another investigator. But if it's my case, it's my case. It's my reports. It's my words. I memorialize it in my way. And the individual who is with me doesn't have any input in what I write. Q. Does he participate in the interview of the subjects? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS report was amended. Q. And on what basis was that report amended on? A. On the new information received after the interview with Ms. Engle. Q. And, after that final interview with Ms. Engle, what was the status of the case? A. It was closed, substantiated still. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand you a copy of what I ask to have marked as Department's Exhibit 15. THE HEARING OFFICER: 15. MR. GAMILS: For identification. THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. Q. Investigator Caiati, do you recognize the document that's been placed before you? A. I do. Q. And what is it? A. It is the amended recommendation. Q. And did that--did this--when the amended recommendation came out, did that change the original recommendation anywhere? A. Not that I know of. Q. Okay. And what happened to this document after it was created?
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164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. Sometimes. Q. Did he in this case? A. Yes. Q. But he had no--he didn't review this at all or comment on this before it was written? A. No. MR. GLASS: I'm not objecting that it's part of the report. THE HEARING OFFICER: 14. [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 14 is admitted into evidence] DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. After--did you conduct any further interviews in this case? A. No. Q. So your interview with Joanne Engle was your final duty in association to this case? A. My final investigative step, yes. Q. Okay. In regards to that final interview, was any other--were any other reports generated? A. I believe that there was an amended-excuse me. I'm losing my mind. The recommendation 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS A. It was sent to the Chancellor's office and I don't know where else. It would go to the Office of Legal Services. Q. Besides those two--those two offices, is it maintained anywhere else? A. Yeah, a copy is placed in the case file. Q. And does this document represent the final step that was taken in the investigation? A. Yes. MR. GAMILS: At this time, I'd like to have this amended final recommendation moved into evidence as Department's Exhibit 15. VOIR DIRE BY MR. GLASS Q. Did you participate in writing this report in any way? A. No. Q. Did you make any recommendation in this report? A. No. MR. GLASS: Same objection as before. I'd like to talk to the custodian who wrote this. THE HEARING OFFICER: Noted.
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167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GLASS: I can't cross-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] But I'll allow it, 15 [Whereupon Department of Education's Exhibit 15 is admitted into evidence] DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.) BY MR. GAMILS Q. Investigator Caiati, the amended recommendation contains information about the investigation. Where is that information received from? A. From my reports. Q. Did you speak to any additional witnesses or collect any additional evidence in regards to this matter? A. No. MR. GAMILS: At this time, the Department has no further questions. THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record for a moment. [Off the record] [On the record] MR. GAMILS: Do you want to put that on the record? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. Yes? Okay. Now, you said you had a conversation with Joanne Engle at her place of work, correct? A. Outside of her place of work. Q. Do you think you went overboard in questioning Ms. Engle that day? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. Do you feel like you threatened her in any way? A. No. Q. Did you suggest that she may go to jail if she didn't tell the truth? A. I suggested that she would be opened up to criminal liability, just like you said to me, if she lied at a hearing. Q. Okay. And she'd then go to--might have to go to Riker's Island. Do you remember that coming up? A. Yes. Q. And do you remember that she might have to spend several nights in jail? Do you remember discussing that? A. I don't remember saying spending several nights in jail.
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168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - DIRECT - GAMILS THE HEARING OFFICER: Sure. All right. Why don't we go off the record now to give the Respondent an opportunity to prepare for his cross and have some lunch. We'll be back at 1:30 on the record. Off the record, please. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Okay. Mr. Glass, your cross. MR. GLASS: All right, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GLASS Q. Mr. Caiati, you realize you're under oath today, correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And, since you're oath, you have the obligation to tell the truth? A. Yes. Q. And, if you told a lie to us today, would that be perjury in your mind? A. Yes, it would. Q. And that could subject to you, perhaps, jail. A. Correct. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. That she might have to get a lawyer and post bail? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember telling her that? A. Yes. Q. That she might have to spend thousands of dollars in getting a lawyer? A. I don't remember putting a monetary amount on it. Q. Okay. And what is your understanding of the criminal liability that she would face if she didn't tell you the truth? A. It's not a question of what she told me. It's what she would do if she was testifying in hearing. If she testified and lied in the hearing and we were able to prove it, she would be subject to perjury charges. Q. When you saw you that day, you didn't really know what the truth was, correct? A. No, I didn't. Q. You assumed-A. [Interposing] I mean I--my investigation, okay, up until that point, had been completed and reopened based on what Ms. Rubino
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171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS stated. Q. But you assumed--you assumed you knew what the truth was, correct? A. I substantiated by investigation based on the facts I had at the time. Q. But you didn't stop questioning her until you felt that she told you the truth, what you wanted to hear. Isn't that correct? A. It's not what I wanted to hear. I wanted the truth. Q. But you didn't know what the truth was. You weren't there, right? A. I was pretty confident that I knew what the truth was. Q. And do you know of the conversation that Christine had with Joanne-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. The witness has no basis of knowledge to know the conversation between Respondent and Joanne Engle. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it. Q. Do you know--do you know of the conversation that Christine and Joanne had about anything regarding Facebook? Did you have--were you privy to any of those conversations? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS truth. Q. And it's part of your duty to press her, to scare her into telling the truth? A. I don't know about scaring her into telling the truth but it's my job obligation to get her to tell the truth, yes. Q. As an investigator, you have to probe a witness until they tell the version that you want to hear? A. Not necessarily the version I want to hear but the truth. Q. Isn't it a fact that Ms. Engle had to weigh the possibility in her mind that if she didn't tell you what you wanted to hear you were going to prosecute her? Even is she was absolutely truthful-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. How does he know what was in Joanne Engle's mind? THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. Did you consider the possibility that Ms. Engle was telling you something you wanted to hear because she feared criminal prosecution, whether it was valid or not? A. I can't answer that. I can't answer to whether she felt that if she gave me the truth or
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172 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a little broad. Anything regarding Facebook could go back as many years as Facebook existed and could have to do with what name you should call yourself on the account. So I will ask you to narrow that question for me. Q. Well, did you ever--did you ever see Christine ever speak to Joanne? A. No. Q. So you have no idea what they might have said between each other or plot they might have planned? A. I have what Ms. Engle told me. Q. Okay. And what Ms. Engle--Ms. Engle told you, right? A. Yes. Q. Under threat of jail time, Riker's Island, and perhaps prison, right? A. I'm being asked--being asked to tell the truth. Q. And if she maintained her position that she put this on Facebook, that she put this comment on Facebook, you would have--why didn't you just stop at that point? A. Because I knew she wasn't telling the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS didn't give me the truth she was going to be subject to criminal prosecution. I laid out what the facts were. Okay? I advised her on what she could be facing, should she be lying to me. I advised her that I didn't feel she was telling me the truth. At that point, she told me what we feel was the truth. Q. If Ms. Engle were to come in and say that she told you that Christine put her up to it because she feared criminal prosecution, would you find that credible? A. I'm sorry. Go ahead and say that again. Q. Ms. Engle came in to testify in this proceeding that the only reason she told you that Christine put her up to it was because she feared you were threatening her with criminal prosecution, would you find that credible--find that credible today? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Because it was pretty obvious, from our conversation which you weren't privy to, that she wasn't telling the truth. She couldn't even remember what was said, even though it was only two lines. And she barely even know--knew that her best friend, or
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175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS one of her best friends, was a fifth grade teacher. Okay? So it was kind of obvious that what she was saying wasn't the truth. Q. Well, there were-A. [Interposing] Okay? So it's my obligation to get her to tell me the truth. Q. Well, there were two parts to this conversation, were there not? A. I don't know about two parts. Q. The first time you-A. [Interposing] There was one whole conversation. Q. Yeah. The one element was who was the one who posted this on Facebook. And originally Joanne said she posted it herself. Christine had nothing to do with it, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And you didn't find that credible, so you continued to press, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And it is possible that Joanne just said that because she felt bad for her friend, right? MR. GAMILS: Objection. Anything is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS hearing, to tell what she was saying to us out there. She decided that it would be better off for her to tell the truth at that point and tell us that it was not her posting. Q. So you didn't accept her proposition when she originally said to you that Christine didn't put me up to this, I did this because I was a friend of hers and I decided to just-A. [Interposing] Never. Q. And your basis for doing that was what? You just didn't believe it? A. 20 years of investigative experience, 22 and a half years of investigative experience. Q. But not--no personal information. It's just you're jumping to conclusions? A. Not necessarily jumping to conclusions. Q. Now when you--so when you say in your report that Engle decided to tell the truth, you're just--you just stopped when you thought that she told you what you--what you believed had happened, correct? A. When I thought what I had was the truth, we were done. Q. Okay. She had to weigh that against
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176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS possible. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. But you don't know whether she did this--you don't know whether she just did this because she felt bad for Christine? A. I only know what she told me. Q. Okay. And so you're not privy to any conversation that Christine told her to lie for her? A. Only what Ms. Engle told me. Ms. Engle said that. It's what Ms. Engle said. Okay? I'm only privy to that. If you're asking me, counselor, whether or not I was privy, there, present at the conversation that may or may not have taken place between Ms. Engle and Ms. Rubino, I was not there. I can only tell you what Ms. Engle told me during the interview. Q. And she only told you that Christine put her up to that after you were questioning her relentlessly about Riker's Island, perjury, going to jail, and questions of that nature, correct? A. I don't know about relentlessly. We laid it out what could happen to her if she wasn't telling the truth and she came in here, into a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS the possibility of criminal prosecution. Whether she prevails on that or not, she had to weigh that against the cost of criminal prosecution, a DA that's the cost of $20,000, Riker's Island-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. Is there a question? THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained, sustained. Q. Well, that calculus had to come in her mind. She had to weight the possibility of telling your version of what you wanted to hear-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. Is there a question? THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. The question is did that--strike that. THE HEARING OFFICER: What's your question? Q. You didn't weight the possibility of, when you drew your conclusion report, that she had to weigh the consequences of the criminal--be subject to criminal proceeding, versus just telling you what you want to hear? Did that--did that cross your mind when you wrote your report? A. Counselor, how am I supposed to know what's in her mind, what's she weighing, what possibility she's weighing? I only know what she told
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179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS me. Q. And how are you supposed to know what Christine told Joanne? A. Based on what Ms. Engle told me. We've been down this already, counselor, three times. Q. And you don't--you don't know what was said originally, correct? Now, when you spoke to Ms.-when you spoke to Mr. Senatore, did you ask him, like--you got one posting, right? You've got one piece of the posting. Did you ask him if there were previous conversations between him and Christine or other postings he had made? A. No. MR. GLASS: Okay. I'm going to mark something. We'll call it, I think, 2, Respondent's Exhibit 2. THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. Do you have a copy for Mr. Gamils? Okay. Q. Can you take a look at this document for a moment? [Pause] Q. Have you seen this document before? A. No. Q. In your conversations with Mr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS this look like-A. [Interposing] I have no familiarity with Facebook as far as being on Facebook. I don't Facebook myself. MR. GAMILS: Can I just have some-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Go ahead. MR. GAMILS: I mean if we're going to use this and refer to it, I have no problem with it. Can we just enter it? I'll stipulate that this is a-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Sure. Respondent 2. MR. GAMILS: --Respondent's Facebook posting. THE HEARING OFFICER: Respondent 2. [Whereupon Respondent's Exhibit 2 is admitted into evidence] MR. GLASS: Okay. Q. So, now that it's in, were you--you weren't aware that Ms. Rubino had originally commented on this incident regarding the drowning earlier in the morning, correct? A. No. Q. And would you have found this comment
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180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Senatore, did you ask him if there had been any prior Facebook conversations regarding this incident regarding the beach? A. No. Q. Would this have been relevant to your investigation, do you feel? A. No. Q. Does it--does it reflect something about what Ms. Rubino originally thought about the incident? A. Yes, I can see what she wrote here. Q. Okay. And that wouldnt be misconduct, what she's doing there, correct, in your mind? MR. GAMILS: Objection. Is there a foundation to what this is, anything? He's never seen it before. I don't know what this is. THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know. Mr. Glass? Q. Well, I'm asking--I mean all you got-all you were referred to was this one little piece of Facebook, right? In your mind, is this a pure--you said you had some familiarity with Facebook, correct? You've been an investigator a long time? Okay. Does 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS that she made to be inappropriate, in your view of what's cruel and -- ? A. This particular comment here? Q. Yeah. A. No, nothing -- . Q. And this seemed to precede the comments later in the day? What time was this--looks like it was posted? A. This was in the morning. The comments were made later in the day. Q. After school, correct? A. Yes. Q. And were you aware that Mr. Senatore had commented on her original posting? A. Counselor, I have no knowledge of anything on this paper. I never saw it before. Q. So you didn't ask Mr. Senatore if there had been prior conversation with Ms. Rubino about this? A. No. Q. Now, how did this--what was your understanding of how the AP actually got this comment from Mr. Senatore? A. The way AP Sadowski explained it to me
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183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS is that it was sent to him. Q. And sent to him in what fashion? A. By email. Q. What time was it sent to him? A. Later in the evening. I don't recall exactly what time. It was around the 9:00 hour. Q. Did you probe whether Mr. Senatore and Mr.--AP Sadowski were together at the time when it happened? A. I saw no reason to probe that. It's not pertinent to my investigation. Q. Well, did you--did you actually ask Senatore if he actually ever saw that actual comment on the web? A. Yeah. Mr. Senatore made the comment, okay, that he had--he had witnessed the posting, had witnessed the postings and then had contacted AP Sadowski and sent the posting to him. Q. Did you explore the motive as to why he did that? A. I don't see what the-Q. [Interposing] Well, it's a yes or no question. A. No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS said that when he clicked on the link it brought him to her Facebook page. Q. But he didn't say he actually saw the comment? A. No. Q. Do you have any idea how long that comment--the comment at issue here in specifications one through three, was actually posted on Ms. Rubino's site? A. I don't. Q. You have no idea when it was taken down? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you know if it's still up there? A. I don't know. Q. And at the time you were probing--you said you came from Ms. Rubino's house at some point, right, to question her? A. Yes, the 8th of July. Q. Did you disclose why you were there? A. There was nobody home. I knocked on the door and there was nobody home. I left a card. Q. Did you leave any kind of message about the content of why you were there on the card?
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184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. Did you explore that? A. No. Q. Okay. And did you explore with Sadowski how he actually--if he actually had physically saw the posting on Ms. Rubino's page, Facebook page? A. I'm not 100% sure exactly whether he saw the posting on her Facebook page or he saw it when it was sent to him. I'm not sure. Q. In fact, he--as far as you--did he make you aware that he was a friend of--Facebook friend of Ms. Rubino, Mr. Sadowski? A. No, I don't remember him saying he was or he wasn't. I just remember him saying that he clicked on the link. That, I remember him saying. And it brought him to her Facebook. Q. You know--you said you have some familiarity with Facebook. A. Right. Q. So if he's not a Facebook friend, clicking on a link would not actually open the page, correct? A. Right. It would just get her to the page but he never said that he went further. He just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. No, just to contact me. Q. So she wouldnt have known what this-what she's under investigation for, correct? A. Correct. Q. Why was Mr. Senatore given a confidential witness status in his initial-A. [Interposing] Anybody who wishes to remain confidential can remain confidential to a point. Q. What is the standard used for--is there a standard used that designates a confidential-A. [Interposing] No standard. If you--if you--when you make a complaint or you're--or you're a witness and you ask us to keep you confidential, we will do that, up to a point. Q. Okay. What point was it reached that he was no longer was confidential? A. At which point come the hearing and he's no longer confidential. Q. Why did he--why did he ask for confidential witness status? A. I don't know. I guess he just didn't want a confrontation with Ms. Rubino. Q. Do you know if he's subsequently
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187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS apologized to Ms. Rubino about that? A. I have no idea, sir. Q. So you didn't probe at all the relationship between Sadowski and Senatore, correct? A. No. Q. Did you ask--did you even ask Senatore why he reported this? A. No. Q. So you don't even know what he was thinking when he reported this? You don't know if he had a beef with Ms. Rubino or a disagreement? A. No. Q. And it's not relevant to your investigation? A. Just the facts are relevant. Q. Well, wouldn't it be a fact whether, you know, whether Sadowski was with him at the time? Those are facts, are they not? A. Why would that matter? What bearing does that have on the investigation? Q. It's my question-A. [Interposing] I'm just curious. Q. No, I'm asking you. A. Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS percentage of substantiated cases as opposed to unsubstantiated. Q. By the way, do you know how many of those percentage--is that percentage much higher if a principal is reporting subordinates regarding--rather than subordinates reporting the principal? A. That, I can't tell you. Q. You don't do--it might be the fact that 100% of substantiated--100% of allegations made by principals on subordinates are substantiated-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. I believe this is argumentative at this point. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. MR. GLASS: Just to make a point. THE HEARING OFFICER: We don't like points on the examination. That's what your closing is for. MR. GLASS: No, but I--does he know. Q. Do you know, factually, of that 50% that are not substantiated, how many are involved--are principals investigation subordinates? A. No, I don't know. Q. Okay. So it's a general--there's a general guide. You don't know where we can find the statistics, correct?
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188 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. These are--these are facts, right? A. It has no bearing on the investigation. Q. But you didn't--but the truth is you chose the facts that were going to focus on, correct? A. That's really not a fact. Q. No, but you're selectively choosing certain facts that you want to explore in the investigation, correct? A. I chose what's pertinent to the investigation. Q. To achieve the objective that you want to-A. [Interposing] As I stated-Q. --substantiate an investigation, correct? A. Listen, like I said, we substantiate about a little bit more than half of the investigations that go on in our office. Okay? Q. What statistics are you relying upon? Are these published somewhere? A. Yeah, they're published somewhere. I can't tell you precisely where they are. But if you go on the SCI website you'll see some facts as to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. If you go on the Special Commissioner of Investigation, New York City School District, website, you will find statistics. Q. I would ask for if you can identify for that us at a future point, I would appreciate that. MR. GAMILS: I believe that counsel has internet access. A. Yeah, you have internet-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Wait, wait, wait. MR. GLASS: All right. Well, if I can't find it, I'd like you to direct me to it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know what the www is? A. No, I don't. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. A. If you Google Special Commissioner of Investigation you'll find it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Q. Now, does the DOE have any specific Facebook policy that you are aware of? A. As far as? Q. Use of Facebook at all? A. No. I believe the only--the only
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191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS policy that I am aware of is that they don't want them doing it at school. Q. Okay. But you--as far as you understood from the investigation, she didn't do it at school? A. No. AS a matter of fact, I asked that question and they don't believe that she was accessing the computer from school. Q. Okay. And the time that these comments were after school as well? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And, now, is there any particular policies that you are aware of that deal with private use of Facebook for private, you know, private use? A. Not that I'm aware of. Q. So when she used the Facebook, you do feel--you do feel it was off duty. It was private and it was only intended-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm going to object to the term using private. The New York State Supreme Court has already ruled that Facebook, no matter what the settings are, is not private. I do have the case law. It's downstairs. I can--I can 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS privacy interest in that statement. And that's basically stated in the second column, second paragraph on page four. Again, the bottom of that same page the court says indeed neither Facebook nor MySpace guarantee complete privacy. Plaintiff has no legitimate reason nor expectation of privacy. In this regard, MySpace warns you to not forget that profiles in MySpace forums are public spaces and Facebook privacy policy sets forth that--and it quotes it. "You post user content on the site at your own risk. Although we allow you to set privacy options that limit access to your pages, please be aware that no security measures are perfect or impenetrable." MR. GLASS: May I respond? THE HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. He was just reading the case. I don't think he was arguing it. MR. GLASS: No, I know. THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. MR. GLASS: We're talking about--first of all, this case September 2010 from a Suffolk County Supreme Court Judge, the lowest court. You know, it wasn't even at the time of issue. When she was doing this, this case wasn't even out, you know. So she would have had no notice that this is--whether she had
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192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS obtain it. But I'm going to object to any use of the term private since it's already been ruled by the Supreme Court that it's not private, no matter what the settings are. MR. GLASS: I'd like to see the case law. I'm not familiar with it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Mr. Gamils, you just handed me a LexisNexis printout of case Kathleen Romano against Steelcase and Educational Institutional Cooperative Services, 20062233, 2010 New York Slip Op 203884, 907 New York Sub 2nd, 650 dated September 21st, 2010. Honorable Jeffrey Arlen Spinner. And you were pointing to-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Well, initially I'd like to make an analogy that the court makes in this case, suggesting that an email that is sent to a recipient, the original sender loses any privacy that was in that email. And then make an analogy that Facebook is the same thing. When you send out a message on your Facebook page to the number of friends that you have being those recipients, you lose any 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS a reasonable expectation. She's not a lawyer. She wouldn't know about a reasonable expectation of privacy. And Facebook clearly--I think we can stipulate that Facebook, when you have friends, that's--you know--you know how Facebook works. And I can bring that in cross-examination further. But to rely on this case, I mean if you want to make an argument, that's fine. But-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Hang on. Just as a--just as a curiosity, are you saying that reliance on what Facebook puts on its site is misplaced because she's not a lawyer or reliance on this case because it comes from the lowest court in the state? Because part of the quotation he quoted from was from Facebook's privacy policy. Taking thatMR. GLASS: [Interposing] But this also says New York courts have yet to address whether there is a right to privacy regarding the-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I understand. I do not--do not deny that. This is one court in one case. But he did read from Facebook's own privacy policy, which I don't suspect was made up by the court. But, be that as it may, I had a
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195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS question for you before we went off track. You asked about privacy and I don't know if you were talking about privacy as in entitled to privacy or privacy as in within her own home as opposed to at work. All right? Privacy is a broad term with, as lawyers, we can use in many different ways. So I'm not sure if you wanted to rephrase your question or repose the question you were asking. I'm not sure what the question was because you started off by saying when she did it, it was off duty. MR. GLASS: Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: Meaning not at work. MR. GLASS: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: So, again-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] When I said private, he objected to my use of the word private. And then he went down and got the case. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, that's because you asked for it. But so the question is-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] I guess I could rephrase the question. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, my question is when you said private did you mean as in one thing or as in--as opposed to being in the school, which is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS way? THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. That's a-hang on. That's a compound question. You're asking-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Let me withdraw the question. Q. Did you ever, physically, yourself, actually see the--her Facebook page with this comment on it? A. No. Q. Okay. And did Brian Sadowski ever see her page with the Facebook comment on it? A. I don't know. Q. All you-A. [Interposing] I don't know if that comment was what was sent to him or if he went into the page and viewed the comment as well. I know it was sent to him and I know he viewed it on that paper. I'm not sure if he viewed it on her Facebook account as well. I'm not sure. Q. All you got, though, was a pasted email of something that was purportedly on her page that Sadowski sent to you, right? You didn't see the actual--you never got into the page itself? A. He didn't send it to me. He--the
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196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS why, as I said, I'm not sure what your question was because we wound up off--slightly off track. But why don't you rephrase, since--why don't you try your question again? And see if it gets an objection or answer and then we'll see where we go from there. MR. GLASS: All right. Q. But you have some understanding of Facebook just from your investigative experience, correct? A. A little. Q. Okay. And you understand that you select certain friends that can view the page but it's not generally available to the general public when your friends can see it but not-A. [Interposing] Correct. Q. Facebook friends can see whatever you post? A. Right. a Facebook friend of hers? You didn't know, right? A. I don't know. Q. And, if you're a user of Facebook, you expect that all your friends, your Facebook friends can see it, correct? Unless it passed on some other 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS principal actually gave it to me. Q. Yeah. That was not the actual Facebook page or printout of the page, it was just copy paste from a Facebook page out to some kind of email, correct? A. I don't know. Q. Was that what you were-A. [Interposing] I don't know. I don't know if that was taken directly, if that was cut and pasted directly off of the--off of the Facebook page or whether it was just put in email format. That, I don't know. Q. It's possible that Senatore copied it off someone else's page and put it on that page, right? You don't know. A. It's possible. Q. You mentioned something about a racial aspect to this comment. Perhaps you perceived a racial comment? A. I had in the beginning it was a possibility. We didn't lend much credence to it because we were aware that the actual comment was made by a third party. Q. So nothing she said had any racial
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199 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS aspect to it, correct? A. Right. Q. Was this Jeffrey Lavine? A. Scott, Scott Lavine. Q. Scott Lavine? Okay. And did you ever get a chance to question him? A. No. Q. Did you ever locate him? A. No. Q. Did you attempt to try to find him? A. I asked Ms. Engle who he was. She said he was somebody from the neighborhood. I said do you have any contact information for the person. She said no. Q. And you testified several times that you felt these comments were cruel or inappropriate. This is your own judgment, correct? A. Well, counselor, if I may, you know, as a public worker, as I was and as I still am, we are held to a higher standard. Okay? And if I was to post, even on my own time-Q. [Interposing] It's not responsive. My question was this was your opinion as to what was-when you said the words cruel-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. Well, you don't even know what was posted, perhaps, all day about this. A. Well, but I see what you--what you gave me to read and I see what she said here and that's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that the comments after this were highly inappropriate. Q. But they give it a little more contextual context then just someone saying out of the blue, you know-A. [Interposing] I really don't know how. Q. And, in fact, these comments--after this was all substantiated, she remained in the classroom with the very same kids, correct? A. I had nothing to do with that part. Q. But was it-A. [Interposing] I don't know if she remained in the classroom. I really don't-Q. [Interposing] In fact she--so you don't know. You don't know? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. So you don't know. And, as far as you know--well, she--did you know if she was actually teaching--you knew she was teaching there in the next school year in the classroom, correct? This
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200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I think he's answering your question. You asked him his opinion and you did not ask him a yes or no question. MR. GLASS: I said--I said-A. [Interposing] I'm going to give you my opinion. Q. No, I asked is this your personal opinion that it's cruel and inappropriate. I guess you can on re-direct. A. It's highly-Q. [Interposing] The question was this was based on your personal opinion, not in any kind of written policy or anything like that. A. Common sense. I mean anything--I think any person with common sense would see that these comments were inappropriate. Q. But you, at the time, you weren't even aware that she had posted earlier in the morning, correct? A. Correct. Q. And so that might have changed the context of what these comments were a bit, right? A. I don't believe they would change the context of these comments at all. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS happened in June of 2010, right? A. Correct. Q. You were aware she was back in the classroom the next day? She was back-A. [Interposing] I had no idea what her duties were at all. Q. Okay. And if she--if she was in the classroom, would you assume that this was not considered that she was a physical danger to anyone? MR. GAMILS: Objection. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. Did you--did you suggest that she be removed from the classroom? A. I have-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Judge, I don't believe that's the investigator's job. A. I make no-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I'll let him. I'll let him answer the question. I think that's fine. A. I made no suggestions. My job is to investigate the matter before me, bring my findings to my superiors, who then make recommendations. I have no--I make no recommendations whatsoever. I never say
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203 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS what I think should happen to somebody. Okay? That's not my job. My job is just investigate the case, turn it over. And then people at a higher pay grade then mine make those decisions. Q. But you have--you have the description to decide what you perceived as cruel and inappropriate comments? A. Well, that's pretty much common sense, counselor. Q. That's common sense in your mind, right? And it's also common sense--you use your common sense to decide whether a witness is lying to you and when to stop pursuing questions, right? A. You see, that's, like I said, my investigative, you know, career sort of leads me to know when somebody's not telling the truth. Q. Is it common sense, sir, if someone feels that they're going to be sent to Riker's Island and face a $10,000 legal bill might be--might not tell you exactly--might make you chose one answer rather than another? A. I don't know. I really don't know. I can't--I don't put words in people's mouths. Q. But your common sense, though. Would 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS entered into evidence. MR. GAMILS: It's also Department's 7. If you look at the bottom, there's a C on it. THE HEARING OFFICER: Department's 7? Oh, I see. It's the copy. Q. This is not a Facebook page, correct? A. Well, that's what I refer to it as the posting. I refer to that document as the posting. That's what I have seen. When I was referring to it, I was referring to that document. That's why I have a parenthesis item C and the document has C on the bottom so that you could see what I was referring to when I was writing it up. Q. With all your subpoenas and investigative tools, you were not--you've never been able to get into her Facebook account, correct? A. I did not go onto her Facebook account, no. Q. And you never--you never--you can't do that today if you tried, right? A. Not unless she lets me in. Are you done with this, counselor? Q. Yes. So, also, if you take a look at-this is the interview of Joanne Engle, 131.
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204 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS it--would it surprise you that someone might just say I'm going to tell the investigator what he wants to hear, rather than face a $10,000 legal bill, Riker's Island, and threat of perjury, under your common sense? [Pause] Q. If you can take a look at your report. This is the investigator's final report. THE HEARING OFFICER: Document which? MR. GLASS: It's bate stamped 129. It's document--I guess it's 12, maybe. DOE 12. MR. GAMILS: Want me to hand it to the witness? MR. GLASS: Yes. Q. In the third paragraph you write--on 6/29/10 the assigned investigator reviewed the posting on teacher, Christine Rubino's, Facebook.com page. A. Uh-huh. Q. That's not true, is it? A. No, it's absolutely true. Q. You didn't get on her--you don't have access to her page, correct? A. If you notice--if you can show what item C is, item C is the--I believe item C has been 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GAMILS: Department 14. Q. Second to last paragraph, you say that Engle was advised that her story was not believable and that investigators felt that she was taking the fall for Rubino so that Rubino would not get into trouble. They explained to Engle that if she was called to testify under oath and she knowing lied that she could be held criminally liable. At that point, Engle told investigator the truth. That's solely your judgment as to what she was telling the truth or that she changed her story to tell the truth, right? A. Correct. MR. GLASS: All right. Can I speak Ms. Rubino for ten seconds? THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Mr. Glass, go ahead. Q. I just want to ask you first about-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Does the witness-do you want the witness to have a copy now? THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you identifying it?
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207 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GLASS: Let me hold on to this. There's no questions for it. Q. So as part of your investigation, when you first started this investigation, you did go to the school and speak to the principal and the AP? A. Yes. Q. Did you speak to them together or separately? A. Separate. Q. Who did you speak to first? A. Ms. Esposito. Q. Okay. And where did that interview take place? A. In her office. Q. And what did you ask her? A. I asked her what happened. You know, basically I asked her what happened. What is it that you want to report? I see we have this allegation. And she advised me what had happened. You know, Mr. Sadowski had provided to her that day what the inappropriate comments were. She provided me with a document that has been entered. And I asked her a couple more questions about whether Mr. Lavine worked at the school, whether a child by the name of Kwami 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GAMILS: I'm going object. I think that statement's a mischaracterization. THE HEARING OFFICER: You mean Ms. Esposito? Hang on. Do you mean Ms. Esposito? MR. GLASS: Yeah. Yes, I mean Esposito. Q. So, as far as your understanding, Esposito said Sadowksi came to me. I told him--I told him to report it directly? A. Yes. Q. And she confirmed that she didn't do it on work time, as far as she knew? A. Correct. Q. She didn't know Scott Lavine and she didn't know Kwami? A. Correct. Q. And then you--then you interviewed Sadowski? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And where did you interview Sadowski? A. In her office as well. Q. Was she present? A. No. Q. And what--did Sadowski tell you how he
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208 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS goes to the school. And that was pretty much it. It was a fairly brief interview. Q. Did you ask any questions about Ms. Rubino's relationship with Mr. Senatore? A. No. Q. And questions about Mr. Sadowski's relationship with Mr. Senatore? A. At that point, I didn't know who Mr. Senatore was. Q. What was your understanding of how--at that point, you didn't even know how it got reported. Is that what you're saying? A. What do you mean? I knew--what do you mean how it got reported? I was advised how it got reported when I went there. That's what was part of the questions that I asked. Mr. Sadowski was the main person. So Ms. Esposito only had limited information and provided me with the document. But that document had come from Mr. Sadowski. So Mr. Sadowski was the-was the person more important to speak to because his knowledge was more first-hand. Q. So Ms. Rubino actually--it was reported to her but she sent Sadowski to take care of it himself? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS got the information? A. What he told me is that he had had a conversation. Now, it ended up being with Mr. Senatore. At the time, I didn't know who the person was. And that they had spoken and he alerted him to some inappropriate postings which he sent to him, reviewed them. He clicked on the link that was on the page that was sent to him. It brought him right to Ms. Rubino's Facebook page. He made a copy--actually, not make a copy. But what he did is he emailed that email to his work email. He made a copy of it when he got to school the next day and provided Principal Esposito with that document. Q. Is it your understanding that this guy, Senatore, emailed Sadowski at his personal email address? A. Yes. Q. And then Sadowski sent it from his personal email address to his work email address? A. Yes. Q. And did you get a copy of those particular emails being forwarded? A. Just that email. Q. That email being?
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211 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. That posting, item C. MR. GAMILS: Department's 7? A. I don't know what it is. THE HEARING OFFICER: Department's 7. MR. GLASS: Can I see that? THE HEARING OFFICER: Department's 7. That's this one. MR. GLASS: Okay. Do you have a copy of this without the redactions? Because there's quite aMR. GAMILS: The Department redacted the personal email addresses that are in discussion right now. They didn't feel that it was appropriate to release the witness' personal email addresses for the purpose of this hearing. MR. GLASS: Well, can you at least tell me? I don't really care what the personal email address is itself. Can you tell me-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Who did what, when? MR. GLASS: Yeah. THE HEARING OFFICER: Exactly. Who's on top, who's under, who's the from? Who's the from? Who's the to? That's what you're asking? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS you meant Senatore? MR. GLASS: Is Sadowski going to come in? Because this was Sadowski. MR. GAMILS: Sadowski was supposed to be here prior to the 28th adjournment. THE HEARING OFFICER: Right. MR. GAMILS: Now, since everything got pushed back, the witnesses that were scheduled for the 28th are here today. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's fine. I have no problem with that. MR. GLASS: The questions are--the questions I have are for Sadowski, not for Senatore. MR. GAMILS: It was never Sadowski. It was Senatore, Principal Esposito, and investigator Caiati. MR. GLASS: Sadowski was never going to be called. Is that what you're saying? MR. GAMILS: He's going to be called. He's going to be called the next date. MR. GLASS: Okay, all right. Q. Now, as part of the conversation with Sadowski, did you ask why Senatore forwarded this to him? A. I don't recall if I asked him why.
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212 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GLASS: Yeah, yeah. MR. GAMILS: I can--I can make the representation or is it more appropriate to have the witnesses make that representation? THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I guess is Sadowski's coming. Sadowski's coming in? MR. GAMILS: Sadowski's here. We'll know today if he--I mean I'm afraid that, without seeing it it may be hard to testify to. What we--what we can do is I can--I have one without the redactions. We can have the witness testify and then when we put it into evidence those can be redacted. Is that-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I have no problem with that. Is that okay with you, Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: Sadowski is here or Senatore's here? You've got so many people. MR. GAMILS: Senatore. MR. GLASS: Sadowski's here today or Senatore? MR. GAMILS: No, Sadowski. MR. GLASS: I was asking about Sadowski. THE HEARING OFFICER: He said Sadowski. So 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS I'm not sure. Q. Is there any--did you ask him whether there were any conversations that they might have had about this comment being forwarded to him? A. No. Q. Do you know if Sadowski actually had threatened Senatore to get the comment because he didn't want to be involved? THE HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me? Q. Did you ask Sadowski-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Say that again. Q. Did you ask Sadowski whether Senatore-he had to threaten Senatore to get the comments from him? A. No. Q. Did you ask Sadowski if Senatore was reluctant to get involved at all? A. Well, that was why he wanted to remain confidential. He really didn't want to get involved. Q. Did you explore that his concerns with Sadowski, why he was--why he wanted to be confidential? A. I am not really concerned why they
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215 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS want to remain confidential, just that they do. Q. And you didn't ask--did you ask Sadowski any questions of the relationship between Senatore and Rubino? A. Senatore and Rubino? No. Q. Did you ask any questions about the relationship between Sadowski and Senatore? A. No. Q. Did you ask Sadowski whether he was, in fact, a Facebook of Rubino? A. No. Q. Did you ask Senatore if there was any other--for any other communications between Rubino and Senatore on Facebook? A. No. Q. Did you ask him how frequently he might have been in contact with Rubino on Facebook? A. No. Q. Did you ask Sadowski whether he ever had any contact with Ms. Rubino-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm going to object to relevance of these questions. I'm not understanding what's the difference. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. Which is the--can you identify for us these document--this document? MR. GAMILS: There's no objection. MR. GLASS: All right. So I'll just-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Respondent 3. [Whereupon Respondent's Exhibit 3 is admitted into evidence] MR. GLASS: --put the notes in. A. These are notes, yes. Q. And that was--that was the day of the interviews? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And what's redacted at the bottom here? The bottom right. A. I have no idea. I didn't do any redactions on my notes. I don't know what they are. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Q. Does looking at the document refresh your recollection as to what it might have been? A. No. MR. GLASS: Can the DOE tell us why it was redacted? THE HEARING OFFICER: Gambils?
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216 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GLASS: I'm trying to get--I'm just trying to explore the relationship as to motive, as to why he's coming forward. He didn't think it was important at all but why this was disclosed, for what purpose was this disclosed. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I think you asked him those questions before. So is there something additional? I mean I'll give you latitude and I'll overrule the objection. MR. GLASS: I think they're appropriate questions. THE HEARING OFFICER: I didn't say they were inappropriate. I think you asked many of them with different words before. So, you know, I'm trying to-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: But feel free to ask. Q. Let me also ask you about--I'm not sure if this is part of your investigation. But O'Mahoney, which you said it was--it might be attached. THE HEARING OFFICER: 6. MR. GLASS: Before we do that, can we--I'll just mark this as Respondent's 3, I believe. THE HEARING OFFICER: 3. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GAMILS: It was telephone numbers. THE HEARING OFFICER: Personal telephone numbers, not business? MR. GAMILS: I didn't cross reference them to see if they were-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] I mean were they school telephone numbers? MR. GAMILS: They were telephone numbers. I didn't recognize them as school numbers at the time. I can't say that they weren't. But they were phone numbers. Q. Do you recall--I mean when Sadowski first got the comments from Senatore, how he received them, in what fashion? A. I don't remember specially how he said, if at first he told him. And I believe he stated that he spoke to him and that he told him. And then he emailed them to him. Q. Your notes seem to indicate, like, received text. Do you know what-A. [Interposing] That may very well be. It may be. THE HEARING OFFICER: No, you're--you've got to read the sentence Mr. Glass. "Sent a cut and paste
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219 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS version of the text of the message to his personal computer." Is that what you're relating or referring to? MR. GLASS: Well, he says--I asked him how Sadowski got the message. THE HEARING OFFICER: Where? MR. GLASS: On the left, left-hand side of this document. He said email and this doesn't say email. I'm just asking-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm confused. Are you referring to the--are you referring to that first line or the second line on the second kind of paragraph? MR. GLASS: I'm just wondering how Senatore originally got the message to Sadowski. MR. GAMILS: Okay. Q. Does this refresh your recollection of how that happened? THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. What line are you reading again? A. It must have been an email. "Sent cut and paste version of the text of the message." THE HEARING OFFICER: But you were reading from the left. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. And the next column. THE HEARING OFFICER: And the middle column continues it? A. Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: And the right-hand column is? A. Just Mr. Sadowski. THE HEARING OFFICER: Fine, okay. I just wanted to understand that. Q. The right-hand column is the phone numbers that we think are--we don't know if they're business or personal. THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know. If you have the original, Mr. Gamils, then we can-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I don't have it on me. THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. MR. GAMILS: Okay. THE HEARING OFFICER: You can--if you have the originals, if you can dig them out and get them to us, maybe at the start of the next hearing. MR. GAMILS: It's in a folder right downstairs. When we call the next witness, I'll bring it up.
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220 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS Q. I'm reading from the left. THE HEARING OFFICER: Read me--read me-Q. [Interposing] What does it say? Does it say AP Sadowski received text from a staff member, alerting him to the comments by teacher of fifth grade, Rubino? A. Yeah, that's what--that's what Ms. Esposito stated. Okay? Ms. Esposito--what Ms. Esposito may have thought, she may have thought that. That's what my notes reflect. But when I spoke with Mr. Sadowski, Mr. Sadowski clarified that. Q. Oh, so she misunderstood it to be a text? A. She may have misunderstood from Mr. Sadowski. That's my--these are just notes that I took when I did her interview. He must have clarified that point during his interview. THE HEARING OFFICER: Just so we're clear, this is a three column page, because I guess it reflects columns in the book. But the column on the far left that is beginning with the words--would you put this in front of him just so he--interview of Lisa Esposito, Principal, that's your interview of Esposito? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. MR. GLASS: All right. And this document is part of what the Board turned over. I think it's relating to O'Mahoney, 203, 204, but I don't think you entered it as part of your direct. So if you want to take a look at it. MR. GAMILS: 201 and 202? MR. GLASS: Well, 203 and 204. MR. GAMILS: It's another--I believe that's another email that Mr. Sadowski sent to O'Mahoney, correct? Basically the same thing that's in evidence as Department's Exhibit 6. MR. GLASS: I just wanted to question what this document is because we don't know what these links are. Do you have another copy of it handy, 203 and 204? MR. GAMILS: I guess I have a copy for myself. MR. GLASS: To show the witness? MR. GAMILS: 202 and 203? THE HEARING OFFICER: 203 and 204. I think 202--I think 2020 is the second page of DOE 6. MR. GAMILS: 203 and 204. Q. Sir, do you recognize this document?
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223 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. This was the--this is part of the case. This was one of the documents in my case folder that was sent by Mr. Sadowski to investigator O'Mahoney, who works the complaint room. Q. So what happens if you click on these links listed here? A. I don't know. If you click on all these links, I don't know. This was a--you'd have to type in this entire link. You can't--you know, this is just a paper. Q. They're all originating from the DOE at some point, it looks like, these links? A. Well, the top one isn't. The top one is Ms. Rubino's. MR. GAMILS: I believe the witness is going to be speculating as to these links. I don't think he created these links. I don't think he's familiar with these links. A. I can--I can say for certain what the top one is because the top one is Ms. Rubino's Facebook ID number. Other than that, I don't know where any of these links go to. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mine had writing on it. MR. GLASS: I probably have another copy. THE HEARING OFFICER: He has it without writing. MR. GLASS: I'm sorry, I didn't-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] It's okay. Thank you. May I keep this? MR. GAMILS: Uh-huh. MR. GLASS: You mean Respondent's-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Identification. I'll mark it as Respondent's 4 for identification. MR. GLASS: I think I'm finished but I'll like one more minute with my client. THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. MR. GLASS: A few last questions. Q. When you saw the--when you saw the principal at the school, did you ask her any questions about Ms. Rubino in general? You know, how she was as a teacher, any of her background?
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224 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS MR. GAMILS: I believe -- to voir dire on this document. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. MR. GAMILS: There's also a question, I believe, that the top is actually two links. Every time you see the https, that's another link. And the URL-A. [Interposing] Right, I'm talking about the URL underneath, the second one down, the second. You have a top and below that you have a URL and it ends with 1151397116. That's Ms. Rubino's account. That's the only link here that I can identify and I can only identify it because this is her Facebook ID number. Sadowski, right? So Sadowski would have sent it this way. Is that what you understand? A. I--you're going to have to ask Mr. O'Mahoney that. MR. GLASS: Can we just mark it, maybe, for identification? THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you have a copy? MR. GLASS: I'd have to get a copy without the handwriting. I'll do that for you. This is R-4. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. Yeah. I did ask several questions about how she is teaching and just general background questions. Q. Do you recall what she said? A. She said there was one issue with Ms. Rubino, a prior arrest. Other than that, nothing major to speak of. Q. Did she mention anything about a grievance that Ms. Rubino had filed against her? A. No. Q. Did she mention an incident in the 2008-2009 school year involving alleged corporal punishment? A. No, she didn't mention that. And the-and the thing with the arrest is it was something I already knew because it was in the--you know, it was on the RAP sheet. Q. Okay. And did she mention anything about her performance as a teacher? A. No, I just said, you know, how is she as a teacher. She said adequate. Q. Are you aware if she--are you aware that she was like an F status teacher? Do you know what that means?
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227 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS A. Yeah, I know what F status. I was not aware that she was F status. Q. What is F status? What is F status to your knowledge? A. To my status, F status is not a full time position. You just come in a certain amount of days and you work and you get paid for the days that you work. Q. Do you know if F status teachers get ratings, annual ratings? A. I'm not 100% sure. I'm going to say they probably should but I'm not 100% sure on that. Q. They should you think they do or you're not sure? A. I'm not sure. Q. How about with Mr. Sadowski, did you have conversations about Ms. Rubino? A. No. Q. Ask about performance or anything? A. No. You know, I had already covered it. Q. Through the principal? A. Yes. Q. And how about with Mr. Senatore, did 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS interview with Mr. Sadowski, now I wrote down--I don't remember the specific wordage. But if thats what I wrote down, then that's what Ms. Esposito stated it was a text. Okay? Maybe she has--she doesn't differentiate between a text or an email. But when I say text here, I mean the text of the message, the, you know, what the message is. Q. Do you know if that's what Ms. Esposito was referring to, the text-A. [Interposing] I have no idea. I have no idea what she was referring to. At this point, I don't remember. Q. So she just used the word text? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, during your interview with Joanne Engle, what led you to believe that initially she was not being truthful with you? A. You know, as I stated before, she could barely tell me what grade her friend worked. She couldn't remember the verbiage as to what she supposedly wrote, even though it was only two lines long. When I questioned her on that, I said, you know, you're telling me that you wrote this. This is what you wrote, but you don't seem to know what--I
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228 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - CROSS - GLASS you ask him his impression of Ms. Rubino? A. No. Q. Or a conversation-A. [Interposing] Not at all. Q. Nothing about relationships or-A. [Interposing] Nothing at all. Q. --they are angry at each other or anything? A. No. MR. GLASS: All right. I have nothing further. MR. GAMILS: Just a few questions on redirect. RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GAMILS Q. Referring to Department's--I'm sorry, Respondent's Exhibit 3. Can you please take a look at that. Specifically, that second paragraph where it says AP Sadowski received text from a staff. And I noticed in other areas of the notes you use the word text and you're referring to--is it correct to say that you were assuming to the text of the language in your--in the second part of the portion? A. IN the second--in the--in the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS mean you had a tough time telling me what grade your friend teaches. And you had--and you can't remember what you wrote here. I find it highly unlikely that you wrote this. Q. Did anything about the language in the message lead you to believe that Joanne Engle didn't write that? A. Well, it was being written as first person, my kids. You know, I hate them all but my-you know, my students. I don't--I don't know how she would write like that. Q. And what did you specifically tell Joanne Engle about the consequences of not being truthful? A. I told her that--and I specifically told her htat her problem was not with me. Okay? Not with me, not with my office. Okay? Specifically, I told her that if she was lying and she was to come to testify at a hearing resulting from this matter and we could prove that she lied, if we could prove that she lied, she would be subject to criminal liability. Did we use Riker's? Yeah, I think I did say that durig the--during the interview. Did we tell her she would be arrested? Yeah. Did I put a dollar amount on how
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231 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS much an attorney would cost her? No. Did I say how many days she would spend at Riker's? No. I just made her aware that there were consequences if she was lying. At that point, she decided to tell us a different version. I'm going to call it the truth. If you want to call it something else, you can. Q. Well, let me ask you this. If she--if Ms. Engle was telling the truth, would she face any of those reperucssions you discussed? A. No. Now, I also want to say that she was free to leave at any time. Okay? I'm not the police. Okay? She was not being held there against her will. This entire interview and this entire conversation, she was free to go whenever she wanted. So if she decided she didn't want to be involved in this anymore, or she didn't want to tell me--she wanted to stick to her story and not give us a different version, she could have got right out of the car and walked away. Q. Now, you also spoke to Ms. Engle about information for Scott Lavine, correct? A. Correct. Q. And whawt did Ms. Engle tell you about Scott Lavine? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS general, inappropriate email or inappropriate use of a computer comments. Q. And why do you believe they were inappropriate? A. It is my belief that anybody with common sense would see that these comments were cruel and inappropriate. I was a civil service worker for 20 years. Okay? If I was to post any type of comment, even off duty, that got back to my bosses that was of this nature, I would have to answer for it. Q. Now, would any--if you obtained information about a relationship between or any type of relationship between David Senatore and Mr. Sadowski, would that have changed your recommendations or your findings in this case? A. It would have no bearing on this investigation at all. Q. And if Mr. Senatore gave Ms. Rubino a subsequent apology after his initial report to Mr. Sadowski, would that have changed your findings in any way? A. No. Q. And why not?
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232 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS A. She just said that he's somebody from the neighborhood that is a Facebook friend of Ms. Rubino. Q. If you could have obtained contact information for Scott Lavine, would you have contacted him? A. Yes. Q. Did you believe, at that time, that Ms. Engle was not being truthful with you about not having Scott Lavine's contact information? A. No, I just asked her who she--who he was. She said he's just somebody from around the neighborhood who was a Facebook friend. I said do you have contact information. She said I dont. Q. Did you tell her that she could go to jail for not providing you that information? A. No. Q. Now, you stated that you don't believe there was a Facebook policy at the Department of Education, correct? A. Im not aware of one is what I said. Q. On what basis were these charges substantiated against Ms. Rubino? A. Just inappropriate comments in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS A. The comments are what the comments were. The investigation was what it was. You know, whether he felt bad or not, there's no bearing on my investigation. MR. GAMILS: I have no further questions. RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GLASS Q. Mr. Caiati, did you tell Joanne Engle that you felt that Ms. Rubino should not be fired over these comments? A. Did I say that? Q. During your conversation with Ms. Engle, did you tell her-A. [Interposing] I don't remember saying that. Q. You don't remember saying that? A. I don't remember saying she shouldnt be fired. I don't remember making any recommendation. Q. Do you believe that you--do you believe that she should be fired over this? A. It's really not my, you know, decision. Okay? Are you asking me is this is the worst thing in the world? No, it's not. Are you asking me to make a determination on whether or not
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235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS she should be fired? I can't give you that answer. Q. Is it--is it your testimony today that you did not tell Ms. Engle or try to reassure that Ms. Rubino would probably not lose her job, just tell the truth because this is not something that's going to lead to her termination? A. I don't remember saying that. Q. You don't remember saying that or you didn't say it? A. I don't remember or recall saying anything to that kind. Q. Are there any--do you have notes or anything that might refresh your recollection on that? A. There may be some notes. I don't have them with me. But I highly doubt, if I did have notes, that that statement would be in there one way or the other. Q. Do you think you said it or you don't remember? A. I don't think I said that. Q. Also, you've said if she was free to stick to her story there would be no consequence if she originally--if Ms. Engle stuck with her original story that she posted it. In fact, if she had stuck 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS attorney's fees, legal costs and-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] If what, Mr. Glass? I can't follow your question. MR. GLASS: The question is let's say Ms. Engle refused to change her story that she was the one who posted the comment. THE HEARING OFFICER: Uh-huh. Q. You were threatening her with perjury, perhaps, with legal costs if she didn't change her story. If this was proven after the fact to be false, she could--she could be facing these consequences, right? That's what you told her. A. No, I told--I specifically told her that her issue was not with me or my office. Her issues would take place if we were able to prove that she perjured herself at a hearing. That's it. Q. And she would face, perhaps-A. [Interposing] She would face consequences if she perjured herself. Q. And even if she could prove to you that she didn't perjure herself and she stuck to the story, then she would still have to face the financial costs that you would have to-A. [Interposing] In what manner? How?
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236 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS to that story, would you have recommended that this Part proceed against her in some kind of perjury-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm going to object. I don't believe that was the witness' testimony. I think the witness stated that if she had told the truth she would not face repercussions, not that if she stuck to any story. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. But, in fact, if she--I'm saying if she stuck to the story that she-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] This is all hypothetical? MR. GLASS: Well, he asked a hypothetical too. THE HEARING OFFICER: No, I'm just trying to follow your question. MR. GLASS: Yeah. THE HEARING OFFICER: If she stuck to her story-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Well, I'm trying to see--he said there's no repercussion. It's my--I'm asking would there have been legal, financial repercussions to Ms. Engle if she stuck to--whether she proved it at the end or not, she would have faced 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS Q. She would have to bear a legal cost defending it. A. How? I don't understand how you come to that conclusion, counselor. Q. Didn't you leave--you left her alone after she gave you the story that you wanted to hear, correct? A. Counselor, I can't arrest her for perjury. I personally cannot arrest-Q. [Interposing] You made clear that to her-A. [Interposing] I made it very clear. [Crosstalk] MR. GAMILS: Im going to object. This is argumentative at this point. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Sustained because I don't know what the question is anymore. You've already asked the question and gotten the answer and asked it again and gotten the answer. And I know that it's not the answer you have been wanting. But ask another complete question and maybe you'll get a different answer. Q. So he used the word repercussions and you said she would face no repercussions. What did
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239 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS you mean by that? A. I told her, as I stated numerous times, that her issue was not with my office or me. If she was found to have perjured herself at a hearing, she would face criminal liability. I did not tell her that that I would be arresting her for perjury. I said she could be arrested for perjury if, in fact, it was proven that she lied during a hearing. That's what she was told. I don't know what else to tell you. She wouldnt have faced any criminal charges unless it could be proven. Could it have been proven? Probably not. Okay? Maybe not, maybe so, maybe not. But after having heard that she could face some criminal liability if she was lying, her story changed. Q. But under your version, just had she said nothing and just agreed with you, she didn't face any consequence whatsoever? A. Nothing, not a thing. She could have walked right out of my car and nothing would have happened to her. Q. And as soon as she said what you wanted to hear, she was able to walk away from the car and you left her alone, right? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS bearing. Q. Did you tell her that you were not a police officer, you have no power of detention? A. Yeah, I told her I am not a police officer. I specifically told her I'm not a police officer. And whether or not she felt a certain way, well, I'm sorry about that. That's got no bearing on this. Q. Well, it might have had some bearing on the answer she was giving you, correct? A. Well, that's on her, not on me. Q. All right. We'll see what she says. MR. GLASS: All right. Nothing further. MR. GAMILS: Nothing from the Department. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Off the record, please. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record, please. MR. GAMILS: The Department is prepared to call their second witness, Mr. David Senatore. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. [Off the record]
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240 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIATI - RE-CROSS - GLASS A. She was able to walk away from the car either way. As I stated before, she could walk away after saying hello or she could walk away at the end of the--at the end of the interview. At no time was she--was she held against her will. At no time was she forcefully held. She was allowed to leave at any time. Q. Did you tell her that? A. Absolutely. Q. When did you tell her that? A. I told you. You don't have--this is-you're coming to see me. You have decided to speak to me. Okay? I am not a police officer, sir, so I don't have any detention powers. Q. You're coming to see--did you come to see her? A. I did come to see her. Q. Then why are you saying that she came to see you? A. No, I'm--but she came to my car. Okay? Because she requested we don't go to her office. So she came to the car to see us. Okay? I am not a police officer. I have no powers of detention. What she believes or what she feels has no 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Your next witness? MR. GAMILS: The Department will--I'd just like to renew my application on the record now. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, if you have an application, it needs to be on the record. So, yes, then go ahead. MR. GAMILS: The Department plans to call several student witnesses on March 2nd and March 3rd. Three--I'm sorry, two out of three of these witnesses have IEPs. They also have foster care issues. The Department is concerned that these witnesses are sensitive minors. We would ask that the hearing be closed for the purposes of their testimony, to protect the students. THE HEARING OFFICER: All the student witnesses? I mean make the application once. MR. GAMILS: My application is to all the students. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's what I'm asking. MR. GAMILS: Correct. They're all in-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] And how
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243 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 many are there all together? MR. GAMILS: There are--Department plans to call three students on our direct case and they--I'm sorry, are in fifth and sixth grade. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I would object because I don't think the statute provides--you know, she requested an open hearing. She's entitled to an open hearing. I don't think there's any disqualification or limiting circumstance which prevents her--to close the hearing for some purposes. This is a truth telling process. The whole purpose--her career is at stake and, you know, I'm concerning, frankly, about the abuse the DOE can use to get witnesses in who might otherwise won't appear. And if they appear that just to the open to come to a hearing and be subject to rigorous crossexamination that may eventually be public doesn't strike me as a--as a really--a good-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] You lost me a little bit. The hearing would not be closed to your client, who is certainly entitled to be here for the course of the entire hearing, or to you, her representative who is certainly entitled to be here for the entire course of the hearing. It would be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 I don't know. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the public can't be here. And I don't really--I haven't really heard of a sufficient rationale to--for you to add limiting circumstances into the statute. So it is what it is and what's the--what's the--what's the harm? MR. GAMILS: It's my understanding that the Education Law actually does provide remedy in this situation. I think that there are certain circumstances and I think one of them being the sensitivity of minor witnesses is a reason to close a hearing. I believe that it has been done in other 3020-a proceedings. And I think when you have an 11year-old or a 12-year-old student witness being questioned about their IEP or about their home situation, I think it is a sensitive issue and I think that it's intimidating to be in a room with people that you don't know. And that's the reason why I believe the statute does provide this kind of--this kind of remedy. And it cuts both ways. What's the harm? The Respondent is here. Her attorney's here. There is no--there is no harm to her. She's being represented and she has the right to confront these
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244 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 closed to people who are non-participants or nonparties. So what's your response to that? MR. GLASS: Yeah. Well, first of all, there's nothing in the statute when you request a public hearing that limits the ability to close it for certain purposes and keep it open for other purposes. It should be open for all purposes. And I don't think a reason has been articulated sufficiently to--what is he concern about closing the hearing? It's going to be in the transcript. They're coming in here, presumably, to tell the truth. As we've heard, you know, it can be perjury if you're lying. So I think there is a potential for abuse by the DOE getting closed hearings for certain purposes because they may not otherwise be able to get the students in. And it seems to me, from what I heard, that the student is less likely to come in if they're exposed to other people hearing what they have to say and there may be an impression left that if they're not, this is going to be more confidential. The reality--the reality is what's the difference of another public person sitting here or not. What is she going to--do you want her to instruct her not to say certain things to the public? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 witnesses. We're asking to close the hearing to people who don't have a stake in this. MR. GLASS: I think it's their burden to establish the harm. It's not our burden because the statute is what it is. If you can cite to some authority that allows you to close it for certain purposes, I'd like to see it. I don't think it exists. I don't know what other Hearing Officers have done. It's never come up in one of my cases, honestly. But, to me, it sounds like, you know, there shouldnt be any difference whether one or two other people are sitting in the room is going to change the truth of the testimony that's coming in. And so, to me, it seems like it's just designed to, you know, coax a student who otherwise might be reluctant to come in and more likely not to tell the truth. It seems like it's designed for that purpose alone. There's nothing that the client-student needs to fear by being here with one or two other people in the room. You know, it doesn't--it doesnt change the equation of what they have to come in--their duty to come in. And, if they're concerned about it, then, you know, explain to the parents that this is the--you know, that their testimony could come
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247 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 back---could come back against them. I don't really see any real basis to start creating these rules on a willy nilly basis. And what are we going to determine? Is it--is it a fourth grader or fifth grader, a 20-year-old? I mean where do you draw the line, so. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I think you stepped beyond the questioning, since he didn't ask to do it for a fourth grader or a fifth grader or a 20year-old; simply for minor witnesses, which will be fourth graders unless for some very unfortunate reason you had an 18-year-old in fourth grade, but we won't go there. I'm going to hold my ruling in the banks until Wednesday morning. Your witness-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: --is? MR. GAMILS: Mr. David Senatore. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Senatore, please state and spell your name for the record. MR. DAVID SENATORE: First name is David, DAVID, last name Senatore, SENATORE. THE HEARING OFFICER: Please raise your right hand, sir. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS A. Yes. Q. Okay. And who is she? A. She's a--you mean who is she here? Q. Who is Christine Rubino? A. Oh, that's Ms. Rubino. MR. GAMILS: Let the reflect that the witness has identified Respondent, Christine Rubino. THE HEARING OFFICER: I think it was more of a question of who is she, relevant to you. Q. How do you know Christine Rubino? THE HEARING OFFICER: Did she work in the local deli? Was she your next door neighbor? A. Oh, she was a teacher at our school. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I think that was the who is she. A. Okay, all right. THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think I'm overstepping your bounds, Mr. Gamils. MR. GAMILS: That was the question. THE HEARING OFFICER: Good answer. Q. How long have you known Christine Rubino? A. As long as I have been working at the school.
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248 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINE RUBINO - 02/28/11 MR. SENATORE: I do. THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead, Mr. Gamils. MR. GAMILS: Okay. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GAMILS Q. Mr. Senatore, where are you currently employed? A. At P.S. 203 in Brooklyn. Q. Okay. And how long have you worked at P.S. 203? A. About 11 years. Q. And what is your current assignment at P.S. 203? A. I teach fourth grade. I teach chorus and also supervise the after school program at the school. Q. And how long have you been an employee of the Department of Education? A. The same amount of time, 11 years. Q. So you've worked your whole career at P.S. 203? A. Correct. Q. Are you familiar with a woman by the name of Christine Rubino? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Has she worked there your entire tenure at P.S. 203? A. Most of it, I think. Q. Do you know what her assignment is at P.S. 203? A. She taught fifth grade. Q. Do you know any other assignments she had? A. No, that's it. Q. Okay. Does she always teach fifth grade? A. That, I'm not sure. I don't think so. Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a social media site called Facebook? A. Yes. Q. What is Facebook? A. It's, like you said, social media. You know, it's a social networking site that, you know, people could post various, you know, information or pictures, and share it with friends, family. Q. Are you a member of Facebook? A. Yes. Q. And do you know what--is Ms. Rubino a member of Facebook?
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251 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS A. She was, yeah. Well, to my knowledge, yes. Q. I'm drawing your attention specifically to the 2009-2010 school year. Was Ms. Rubino a member of Facebook at that time? A. Okay. Yeah, yes. Q. And how do you know that? A. Because he and I--she and I were mutual friends at that time last year. Q. And what does it mean to be a friend on Facebook? A. Well, a friend is someone that has their--has requested you or you have to request them and then you two become friends and you can, like, share conversations or, you know, view each other's comments or what other people say, stuff like that. Q. And how long--starting at June 2010, at that time, how long had you been friends with Ms. Rubino on Facebook? A. Probably, you know, months, a few months. Q. And, on Facebook, approximately how many friends did you have? A. Did I or do I now? It was about-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS would say, you know, over ten. I can't give an exact number. Q. And of those approximate ten mutual friends, where do those people come from? A. The school also, P.S. 203. Q. They were other staff members? A. Yes, yes. Q. Now, when one of your friends posts a message on your page, how does that information make its way to you? A. Okay. Well, there's thing called the wall, which is your homepage. And anybody that's a friend of yours, whatever they post shows up on your wall. And, also, like some--depending on what the-what the settings are, anybody that comments on a post that your friends made, that could show up on your wall too. Q. So if one your friends posts something on their wall, it shows up on your page? A. Correct. Q. Drawing your attention to June 23rd, 2010, did you receive any posts on your wall from Ms. Rubino? A. Yes.
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252 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. [Interposing] At that time. A. About over 100. It must have been 100, 150. Q. And are you aware of how many friends Ms. Rubino had around June of 2010 on Facebook? A. Not specifically. Q. Okay. A. But, like I said, I'm sure--you know, most of us do have, like, you know, at least 100 friends. Like, I can't pinpoint a number. Q. Did you have mutual friends with Ms. Rubino? A. Yes, we did. Q. Okay. And what would be a mutual friend? Not--I'm not asking you for an identification. A. Okay. Q. What does it mean to have a mutual friend? A. That would be somebody that's a friend of mine and a friend of hers on Facebook. Q. And approximately how many mutual friends would you say you had? A. Again, I couldn't pinpoint it. I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Can you explain to us what occurred? A. Regarding that specific post, right? Q. Correct. A. Okay. Yeah, I was--may I talk about the incident the day before? Just about, you know, about regarding the post. Q. Well, why don't you tell us what happened on June 23rd, 2010? A. Okay. Q. Involving Ms. Rubino's Facebook page. A. I read a post that I was kind of upset by and I wasn't sure how to proceed. But it was based on something that happened the day before and in the media and, you know, did upset--was like a terrible tragedy and it upset us. Q. What are you--what are you referring to, what event? A. There was a public school that had taken a trip to the beach or something. And I'm not sure what borough it is, but a student had drowned in-I'm not sure -- but there was -- that a student had died on a school trip. Q. And what happened in relation to that following day, on June 23rd, 2010?
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255 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS A. Well, the comment that I read was, you know, was kind of related to that incident and the nature of the comment, that's what was kind of upsetting. Q. What was the comment, do you recall? A. Not word-for-word. Q. Is there anything I can provide you that would refresh your recollection? A. I mean if you have a copy of the comment. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand the witness what's been marked as Department's Exhibit, I believe, 7. THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. Q. Mr. Senatore, do you recognize that? A. Yes, yes. Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to the comment? A. Yeah, it does. Q. What was the comment? A. May I read it? Q. Does that--do you remember now? A. Yeah. Well, yes. Yes I don't remember it word-for-word. I remember basically what, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS one time or did you observe them as they were being posted? A. I believe they were all--it was all together. Q. And what did you do when you read these comments? A. Well, like I said, you know, I upset by the comments but I wasn't--really didn't know how to proceed. But I, you know, really think that there could have been a problem if, you know, it could somehow--whatever, it came to light or, you know, just the fact that the things that comment said. So I-Q. [Interposing] Let me just stop you right there. A. Okay. Q. Why did that upset you? A. Because it was--I mean it was a terrible tragedy that that happened to that, you know, to that student. I don't know if it was a girl or a boy. And, you know, this was almost like, you know, making light of it. And I just, you know, I just imagined if, like, somehow the--whatever, the parent of the child that passed away had read something like that or whatever, how it, you know, how upsetting it
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256 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS you know, the content was. Q. And what was the comment? A. Well, no, just bringing up the incident with the trip, saying that, you know, maybe it was good idea for her--for her students to go on that trip. Q. Looking at Department's Exhibit 7, specifically the two lines after it reads Christine Doro [phonetic] Rubino, is that the posting that you're referring to? Is that the posting that you read? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And the significance of the Christine Doro Rubino, what is that? A. Well, that's her--that's her name. Q. Okay. Is that also her name on Facebook? A. I--to my knowledge, I think so, yes. Q. And when you first saw this posting, how did you observe it? A. How? On the computer. And, you know, just like the original comment and then the two comments afterwards. Q. Did you observe all three comments at 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS would be, or any parent, you know, for that matter, if they read that. Q. Now, once you read these comments, what did you do? A. I contacted my supervisor. Really, it was my--initially, it was--it was to get, you know, advice about how, you know, maybe how I should handle it or if I should, you know, do something about it. Q. Who was your supervisor? A. Mr. Sadowski. And I wasn't really specific or anything, you know, initially. I just told him I became aware of something that was--that was, you know, potentially harmful and upsetting. And he--you know, he had directed me that he needed to, you know, me to pass the information over to him, which I then did. Q. During this phone conversation, did you tell him what the comments were? A. At the end, before I did--before I did send it, yes. Q. And did you identify-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Objection. Just he said phone conversation. I don't we established-A. [Interposing] Oh, by phone. Yes, I
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259 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS contacted him by phone, sorry. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. A. Sorry. Q. During--I'm sorry. During this phone conversation, did you read him the comments? A. I'm not sure if I read them exactly. Q. Okay. A. Word-for-word, I'm not--that, I don't recall. Q. Did you tell him who made the comments? A. Before--I did not initially but before I had sent them, yes, I did because he would know anyway if I sent them. Q. And then, after that phone conversation, what did you do? A. That's it. He just said he would handle it from there. And I didn't know what the outcome was going to be or, you know, whatever. I didn't hear any--I didnt hear anything of this until this year. Q. Well, besides calling Mr. Sadowski, did you do anything else? A. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, yes. Oh, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS photographs? A. Yes. Those are the--that's the only thing that's different is--so that would probably be the photographs that were missing. Q. Now, I noticed there is some redacting on the page. A. Uh-huh. Q. I know that you didn't do that redacting. Do you know the order--do you know how this was sent to Mr. Sadowski? A. What do you mean how? Q. How did you email--well, how did you send it to him? A. By, you know, copy. You know, copying, pasting, and then just putting it into a--in an email and sending it over to him. Q. Okay. And what email address--not, without saying what the address is, did you use a private or a New York City address? A. Oh, no. It was not the Departments. It was a non-Department of Education email. Q. And what email address did you send it to, to reach Mr. Sadowski? Was it a private or a public email?
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260 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS well I had to--when I sent it to him, I had to email him the comment. Q. Now, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as Department's Exhibit 7. A. Okay. Q. Do you recognize that? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. That's just the comments that I had copied and then sent, emailed to Mr. Sadowski. Q. When you copied these, were they copied from your page or from Ms. Rubino's page? A. From my page. Q. And I notice that there are several boxes that have X's and hyperlinks. Do you know what information is contained in those boxes? A. I would think it would be the photo, maybe, because there's no--I don't think--I don't think the photo would show up in--if you just copy and page. Q. Looking at Department's Exhibit 2, to compare that. I noticed that there are pictures and then postings on this exhibit. Would that be the same set up as to your cut and paste without the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS A. I believe it was also, again, not a Department email. Q. Okay. MR. GAMILS: Now, just to--I'm going to hand the witness an unredacted copy because I think we wanted clarification on the email, on what the lines represent. Do we still want that done? THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, please. MR. GAMILS: Okay. I'm going to hand the witness a copy of the unredacted email, which is Department's Exhibit 7. Q. Now, looking at the lines, can you just tell us what lines reflect your personal email and the email address that you sent that to? A. Okay. Well, that would be mine. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. A. On the redacted? Oh. Where would it be? Over here? Q. Well, it's exactly the same, so. MR. GLASS: What's the top line, first? THE HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. A. The top--the top lines would be Mr. Sadowski's and the bottom, with the next pair, the top one would be mine and the to would be, again, Mr.
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263 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Sadowski's. And mine only--mine only appears once on there. Q. And where is that? A. At the second pair, the first--the first line, top line. MR. GAMILS: So the fourth redacting line, the witness is indicating, represents his personal email address. Q. And then you sent-A. [Interposing] Oh, you count this one too, right? One, two, three, four. Q. Correct. A. Okay, okay. Q. Correct. A. Okay. Q. Then which lines are Mr. Sadowski's personal email address? A. It would be all the other lines. MR. GAMILS: Would the Hearing Officer like to compare these? THE HEARING OFFICER: May I? [Pause] MR. GLASS: Can I follow this? THE HEARING OFFICER: As I read it, the top 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS conversation on Facebook about the death of the student the day before? A. I believe I may have, yeah. Someone posted something, you know, about what a tragedy it was. I believe I commented on it. MR. GAMILS: I'm going to hand the witness what's been marked as Respondent's Exhibit 2. Q. Do you recognize that conversation at all? A. Yes. Q. and what is it? A. That was Ms. Rubino had posted, commented that the incident had happened and the rest of us are just saying, you know, what a terrible tragedy it was, basically. Q. Was--at that time, was Ms. Rubino's comment inappropriate about the tragedy? A. This-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] You're asking for his opinion? MR. GAMILS: Correct. A. This specific comment, this comment right here? No, I don't think so. Q. Were you surprised, later that day, to
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264 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS from is Mr. Sadowski's personal email address. The middle from the to are both Mr. Sadowski's personal email addresses, as if you would send something from yourself to yourself. The third from is Mr. Senatore's personal email address. And then the to is Mr. Sadowski's personal email address, which is the same email address as the top three redactions. MR. GLASS: Okay. MR. GAMILS: And just for Department purposes, where it says Mr. Sadowski's name, under our system, that's--his email address won't appear because he's an employee of the system. So that name is represents his work email. THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. Where it says to and you didn't redact out his name and it says 22k2o3. Q. Now, prior to receiving--well, strike that. Do you recall approximately what time you observed those postings to your wall from Ms. Rubino's Facebook page? A. It was--not exactly. It was in the afternoon, after 3:00. I'm not sure exactly what time. Q. Earlier that day, did you have a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS receive a posting from Ms. Rubino with a different tone? A. Yes, I was. It was, you know, it was just--it was like, you know, shocking to hear something like that. Q. Now, after emailing this information to Mr. Sadowski, did you have--did you take any other steps? A. No because he--you know, he told me he would handle it. I had no idea what, you know, what he was going to do with the information. He didn't tell me anything. And I didn't hear anything until this year, you know, when the special investigator came to--was questioning me about it. Q. Did you want to remain anonymous in your report? A. I mean the thing I wasn't--it wasn't even like even reporting. I mean he--Mr. Sadowski had made the, you know, made the complaint and the investigator had told me that he was going to, you know, withhold me name at that point. He was going to--you know, after, you know, the steps were being taken, he told me he was going to withhold me name. At that point, I kind of was--
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267 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] Can you answer the question he asked you? Q. Did you--strike that. I'll ask another question. THE HEARING OFFICER: Because I didn't--I didn't hear any answer to that question. Q. Did you ask--did you ask Mr. Sadowski to keep you--keep you anonymous in reporting this incident? A. No because I didn't know he was reporting the incident. Q. Did Mr. Sadowski ever tell you that he was reporting the incident? A. No, he did not. Q. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Sadowski prior to speaking with the investigator, expressing your wish to remain anonymous? A. No, it did not. Q. Did you tell the investigator that you wish to be anonymous? A. Well, yeah. He had told me that that's what he was going to do, when he spoke to me. After he questioned me he said--he says, oh, your name will remain anonymous. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS I didn't say anything before that because I didn't know what, you know, what was to become of--become of it. Q. Now, just going back to Department's Exhibit 7, when you cut and posted this--cut and pasted it, there's a time indicated, correct? A. Correct. Q. Can you explain to us what the time indication means? A. Well, six hours ago, that would refer to approximately how long ago the comment was--the original comment by Ms. Rubino was made compared to the time I cut and pasted it. And then the following comment, that would be five--you know, it says five hours ago. So that comment was made by Mr. Lavine an hour after, I guess, Ms. Rubino made her original comment, approximately. Q. And on this cut and paste does it indicate how much longer the third comment was made? A. No, there's no time frame for the third comment. Q. Okay. Would it have to have--based on the set up on the page, would it have had to been after the comment from Scott Lavine?
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268 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Did you ever ask him to keep your name anonymous? A. I didn't ask him because he--that's what he told me he was going to do. Q. Did you want to remain anonymous? A. At that point, you know, I would think so. Q. And why? A. Well, just something--just for my best interest because, you know, in a sensitive matter like that, you know, we just--you wouldn't want your name to come out as, you know, someone that people would think reported, you know, reported something. Q. Did you ever speak to Ms. Rubino about the posting? A. No, it did not. Q. Did there come a time when you ever apologized to Ms. Rubino? A. No because they had--when the investigator he had me that, you know, please don't-do not speak to anybody about this. So I could not--I really didn't tell anybody this information. And, like, what one of the things he said, you know, do not discuss this with anybody, especially Ms. Rubino. And 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS A. Yeah. It would have to be after that and also, obviously, before he posted it. The rest of them wouldnt have been--they wouldn't have been on there. And before I cut and pasted it because it wouldnt have been on there then. MR. GAMILS: I have no further questions at this time. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: I need some time. THE HEARING OFFICER: A few minutes, sure. Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Just to revisit something that I was holding off on until one thing. -- copy of the statute but Mr. Gamils provided it during our most recent break. Under the statute Conduct of Hearing, subsection B, it says that it is at the Arbitrator, or I should say Hearing Officer's, discretion to exclude any persons other than parties and witnesses and their attorneys from any portion of the hearing where such exclusion is warranted for the protection of the privacy or reputation of any person under the age of 18 years.
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271 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS Therefore, it lies within my discretion to close the hearing to the public during the course of testimony of minor witness, which I will do. MR. GLASS: I'd just like to make a record on that because-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] You can make a record on that. Go ahead. MR. GLASS: My understanding is that there've been at least four case--from what I believe, you can close the hearing -- . THE HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me? MR. GLASS: I've heard in the previous case you didn't close the record on a similar application. THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you tell me which case that was? MR. GLASS: I was told. At least I can get it for you now. I can't--I'd have to go off the record to do that. And at least three other cases we're aware of where these hearings have not been closed. THE HEARING OFFICER: That's true but it does say in his or her discretion. And I would assume that-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] Well, I'm saying 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS that-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] You did. MR. GLASS: No, I'm just saying that there is other cases that I don't think there was--I understand it is within your discretion. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that given the factors that were articulated by Mr. Gamils, I don't think that--I'm more concerned about the opposite effect that it has in empowering witnesses or molding witnesses who don't fear the limitation on their testimony being public. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm not excluding you, Mr. Glass. MR. GLASS: I understand that. THE HEARING OFFICER: And you will have every opportunity to examine these witnesses. And should you chose to leave this room and shout from the rooftops, I can't stop you from doing that. What I can exclude are people who are not parties. MR. GLASS: All right, since it's your discretion. I'm just saying I don't see a basis for it. I think -- says the discretion the other way. THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, that was the request.
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272 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS in your discretion-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] My discretion is my discretion. MR. GLASS: But what in particular did he articulate to make this closed? What factors are you relying upon? I'd like to make a record of that because I don't see--I didn't see or hear anything that articulated a reason why you would close it. THE HEARING OFFICER: In my discretion, I am closing the hearing while minor witnesses are testifying, not during the course of the hearing when people over the age of maturity are testifying but while minor witnesses are testifying. And if that is interspersed from the witnesses who are--as I assume Mr. Senatore appears to be over the age of maturity, then those portions of the hearing will then be reopened and then closed again if another minor witness is here. MR. GLASS: Is there a rationale for that that you're giving or just-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] It is my discretion. That's what the statute says. That's my rationale. MR. GLASS: I'd just like to make a record 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - DIRECT - GAMILS MR. GLASS: Yeah. THE HEARING OFFICER: But it is, as it says, within my discretion. Having exercise my discretion, and I've heard you and you have made a record of it, but I'm sorry. Moving on to the cross-examination. MR. GLASS: All right. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GAMILS Q. Mr. Senatore, you said you've known Ms. Rubino for quite some time, right? A. Yes. Q. For over ten years would you say? A. Yes. Q. And you had conversations with her in the school? A. Yes. Q. And had commented on her Facebook postings before? A. I'm sure I did. I couldn't say how many times. Q. Okay. And has she commented back on your postings at all? A. Probably. Q. All right. And you--
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275 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm sorry. Just for clarification, are we talking about on Facebook or in real life? MR. GLASS: On Facebook. MR. GAMILS: All right, not in person? Q. So, on Facebook, you've actually had comments back and forth with her? A. Yeah, yes. Q. Okay. And, in fact, that very day, in the morning, you saw a posting that she had posted about the drowning and you, in fact, commented on it, right? A. Right. Q. And did it occur to you when you commented on this that you might be putting your employer in a bad light by your comment? A. At that time or-Q. [Interposing] At the time you posted it. A. At the time I posted that initial-Q. [Interposing] I'm talking about 7:11 a.m. on June 23rd, 2010, you posted a comment. A. Right. Q. That said I heard that this morning 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. Well, did you think about the consequences when you posted that about how this might reflect on your employer? A. No. Q. Okay. And has any--has your employer questioned you about this comment in any--in any way? A. How would my employer know about this comment? Q. Well, did you--did you tell Mr. Sadowski about this conversation you had with Ms.-that there was a previous Facebook posting earlier that same day, before the comment you posted--before the comment you revealed to Mr. Sadowski? A. No, I don't think that--I don't think this one was discussed with him. Q. You chose not to disclose it, correct? A. Well, I didn't think it needed to be disclosed. Q. Why not? A. Well-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it. I'll allow it.
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276 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS some terrible and totally irresponsible and negligent from all the adults involved in planning this thing. Now, some of the adults you're talking about are the DOE people who organized this trip, correct? A. Or all the people going, the staff that was going on the trip. Q. And those staff members are-A. [Interposing] Right. Q. --members of the DOE? A. Right, right. Q. Correct? A. Right. Q. And by calling them negligent, in fact, you're obviously suggesting there might be some kind of liability the DOE can face, correct? A. Well, the child--I mean if a child dies, I mean I would assume someone was being negligent. Q. And who may bear the cost of that negligence? Your employer, correct? MR. GAMILS: Im going to object. Mr. Senatore is not legal counsel for the Department of Education. I don't think he's qualified to answer these questions. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Q. Why not? A. Because I didn't--why would it need to be--well, why would it need to be disclosed? Q. Don't you think--don't you think it would have been fair to Ms. Rubino to talk about her previous comment which you didn't find inappropriate in the same day to give some context of what had been said later in the day? A. Well, I mean I don't think--I don't think one comment has to do with the, you know, has bearing on the other one. People make hundreds of comments on Facebook. Q. Yes but the first comment she made, you didn't find to be inappropriate, correct? A. No, of course not. It wasn't. Q. Okay. And why didn't you just tell-talk to her that day and say, you know, Christine, I think this might be a little overboard. Why don't you remove it? A. That could have been an option too. You know, I didn't--I chose not to go that route and i--that's why, you know, I was--I did seek advice from my, you know, assistant principal, you know, how to proceed. And, you know, that's what he told me to do.
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279 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Q. Well, you found out--you found out about this, what, about 3:00 you saw the post? A. In the afternoon. I'm not sure exactly what time. Q. Right. But you didn't--you didn't report this until, like, 9:30 at night, right? A. Yes, it was--it was later on. So I do--I do work, you know, in--I don't leave the building till about 6:00, so. Q. Did you mentioned it to Mr. Sadowski while you were in school? A. I don't--no, I don't think so, no. Q. How long have you known Mr. Sadowski? A. Since he's been working at the school. Q. How long has that been? A. Probably maybe three years, I would say. Q. Is he your direct supervisor? A. Well, Ms. Esposito is the principal of the school. He's a direct supervisor for the upper grades. Q. Did he--did you see him that evening outside the school? A. No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS objection. I don't know if there's any relevance of Mr. Sadowski seeing Mr. Senatore or opposite or not seeing them. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it. I'm not sure what the relevance is either, but I'll allow the question. Q. Was it--was it more than once a week? A. No. Q. How would you characterize your relationship with Mr. Sadowski? A. He is my supervisor. We, you know, we did, you know, kind of talk, you know, about other things because, you know, he is close to my age. He went to the same high school as myself. So it was-you know, honestly he was a different type of relationship then maybe I would have with the principal because that's someone I see as more as my senior and my--so it just--and the fact that he's a man too and Im a man, so. But it was--you know, we talked. WE joked around and whatever. It's just like it was nothing. It was never any-Q. [Interposing] Does he have a Facebook account? A. I don't know.
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280 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Q. Do you ever see him outside the school socially? A. At, like, parties and stuff. You know, some, you know, teacher gatherings and stuff, you know, there are Christmas parties. Q. When was the last time you saw him physically out of school before you made--before that day? MR. GAMILS: Objection to the relevance of seeing Mr. Sadowski outside the school. THE HEARING OFFICER: Before--hang on. I'm trying to find out where you're going with this in order to rule on the objection. Before June? Q. Before June 23rd, have you seen him socially June 22nd that night? A. I couldn't tell you. THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it. A. I don't know. I don't think--I don't know what I did June 22nd. Q. How frequently did you see him outside of the school? A. No, not frequently. Q. More than once a week? MR. GAMILS: I'm going to renew my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Q. You don't know? A. Im not--I'm not a friend of his on Facebook. He might. Q. Now, how did you first communicate this to him? A. By telephone. Q. Did you send--did you forward the comment to him first before you spoke to him on the telephone? A. No, I spoke to him first. Q. What time did you call him? A. Again, it was in the evening. I'm not sure exactly what time. Q. Why didn't you wait till the next day? Why 9:30 at night? A. That's when I decided to call him. Q. What, exactly, did you say to him when you called him? A. I don't know the exact particulars. I said--I told him--you know, I told him I was aware, you know, of a possibly dangerous comment that was made and I was asking him how--if I should do anything, speak to the person, or how we should proceed with something like that because I felt this
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283 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS comment could be damaging, you know. He said he needed, you know, he would--he asked me that I send him the information. Q. So you asked him if you should speak to the person first and he said-A. [Interposing] Well, I said how--I said how should, you know, how should this be handled. And he says I--you know, if--and I kind of told him the details of the comment without disclosing anyone's name. And, you know, after hearing that, he's like, you know, I do need to know, you know, I need to see who this person was and I need to be--I need the comment. Q. Did you tell him the exact comment onA. [Interposing] I don't think I told him what was--I don't think I told him exactly over the phone but I--you know, at that point, I just sent it to him, so. Q. But you presented the option to him of perhaps you just talking to the person that posted it and he rejected that? A. Yeah because he did ask me for the comment. That was his--that's what he--that's what 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS over then you always, you know, whether it's appropriate or not, you still feel like, you know, that you're, you know, betraying someone. Q. Had you ever turned over information before? A. No, not a post, no. Q. And there's never an opportunity that, you know, required it. Im not saying that I wouldn't if there was an opportunity that, you know, was a serious situation because that's our job as, you know, as teachers. Q. Do you know a Lauren Coda? THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry? MR. GLASS: Lauren Coda, CODA. A. Yes. Q. Have you had any conversations with her about this recently? A. Yeah, I did speak to her briefly the other day. Q. In what context? A. In what context? Well, a lot of things were being miscommunicated in our school, number one, about the person that did this, you know, meaning me. Before they even knew it was me. And I
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284 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS he, you know, said he, you known, that that should be done, that-Q. [Interposing] No, my question was you suggested to him as one of the alternatives perhaps just speaking to the teacher? A. Yeah, I believe--I believe I did, yeah. Q. And he rejected--he rejected that, right? That yes or no? A. Well, he decided--he just said Im going to need the comment. He didn't really say that, you know, because he said this is what needs to be done. Q. And were you reluctant to give it to him? A. Well, I mean just honestly, again, my goal was not get anyone, you know, get anyone in trouble. I thought it needed to be dealt with, definitely. But, you know, I didn't want to decide in the matter how but--in the manner how. But so-Q. [Interposing] My question was were you reluctant to disclose to him, you know, the identify of who put the comment on? A. Well, anytime you turn information 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS mean I really wanted Christine to know that, you know, it was--it wasn't against personally being against her. And that's how it seemed like it was being communicated in the school, which I thought was unfair to me. That I thought I wasn't being represented, you know, that my, you know, my name--I now became the enemy and the person that sets out to get somebody and that wasn't the case. And I really couldn't talk to Christine about it because I was directed not to, you know, not to say anything at all. But I-Q. [Interposing] So you wanted--did you want Ms. Coda to pass that on? A. Well, I just wanted to-Q. [Interposing] I'm sorry. Did you ask Ms. Coda to pass a message on to Christine that you feel sorry about the whole situation? A. Well, I was--it's an unsettling situation for all of us. And I'm--but it was almost, you know, intimated in the school that I purposely did this to try to get Ms. Rubino for some reason. Which was preposterous because I, you know, there was definitely no goal or motive behind it. And I didn't know--I mean I take, you know, accountability for the, you know, forwarding the comment but that's it. There
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287 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS was no--and I didn't want it to be--I mean for my own reputation too, I didn't want--I didn't want the staff to think that I was--that I would just try to get somebody, you know, fired or in trouble for whatever-for whatever reason because I have nothing against Ms. Rubino personally. Q. In fact, don't you--don't you and Ms. Rubino have other mutual Facebook friends in the school? A. Yes, we do. As Mr. Gamils said, yes. Q. And did any of these other teachers report this comment on Ms. Rubino? A. I don't--I don't think so, not to my knowledge, no. Q. Did you have any conversations with them about what Ms. Rubino has said or what allegedly was-A. [Interposing] No one in the school--I don't think it was--no one really discussed it. Q. Do you know if Mr. Rubino has other-gives access to her account to other people? THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. A. Could you repeat that? THE HEARING OFFICER: Hang on for a second. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS if it was on there. I couldn't say. Q. Do you know if it was ever pulled down? A. I couldn't say for sure. Q. You had access to the--when did you stop your Facebook friends with-A. [Interposing] Well, I mean after that incident I did--I did drop--I did, you know, drop friends and some friends in school and some I put back because--and because it's like--you know, it's a difficult situation to in your workplace to have, you know, a lot of--a lot of people find that to not to have--to be friends with people you work with and so, you know, I was torn between--so I did get rid of a lot of friends and I--and I took some back. Q. My question, sir, is when did you-when did you drop Christine? A. I-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm sorry to interrupt. I have to use the restroom. Can we just take two seconds? THE HEARING OFFICER: Sure. Off the record. MR. GAMILS: I'm sorry. [Off the record]
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288 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS I don't know what that means. Q. Do you know if Ms. Rubino gives access to her Facebook--does she let other people post on her Facebook account? A. I wouldn't know. Q. Do you know a Joanne Engle by any chance? A. No. What was the last name? Q. Joanne Engle. A. No. Q. When did the investigator first come to talk to you about this? A. I believe in October, November. I'm not sure of the exact date but it was in the fall. Q. So prior to--so the investigator didn't come to you until October, you're saying, right? A. Correct. I didn't hear anything. After forwarding the message, I did not hear anything of the situation until the investigator came to speak to me, several months later. Q. Did you notice whether that comment was even on the page as of October, November? A. No, I don't even--I wouldn't even know 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record, please. Go ahead, Mr. Glass. Q. Now, I asked before and you didn't really answer. When did you drop Ms. Rubino as a Facebook friend? A. I don't have the exact date. Q. Was it right after? Was it weeks after, a month after? A. I don't think it was right after. That's all--that's all I'm sure of. Q. So did you notice whether, in fact, she actually pulled the comment down before you removed her as a Facebook friend? A. Again, it's--I'm not sure. Q. So it's possible it was gone, you know, like the next day? A. Because, you know, people post so many comments and things afterwards to--it would--just takes a long time just to scroll all the way back to see. It could take, like, ten, 15 minutes just to go back a week. And I wasn't sitting there doing that. Q. And, after you--so Sadowski, that conversation was--when was the conversation with
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291 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Sadowski on the phone? That was the next day, the 24th? That was the same day, right? A. That was the same day that was before that it was sent. Q. Okay. And what did Sadowski tell you at the end--at the end of that conversation, what he was going to do? A. He said he would just handle it and thank you and that's it. He did not say what he was going to do or if I--if he wanted -- something. He just said, oh, thank you and that's it. And, like I said, I did not hear anything about it until the fall. Q. So the investigative report says--the investigation says you were interviewed on October 12th. Does that-A. [Interposing] That sounds--yes. I said October or November, yeah. Q. So you didn't hear a thing about this from Sadowski or anyone after? A. No. Q. Do you know if Ms. Rubino was even alerted to anything between June 24th and October 13th, when the comment was made? A. If she--if she was alerted to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS A. I don't recollect his name. I have his card somewhere at home. Q. And one of the administrators was there? A. Yes. Q. Either Sadowski or Esposito? A. Yes, one of them was there. Q. Had you had any conversations with Esposito about this-A. [Interposing] No. Q. --at any time prior to this? A. No, no. Q. She never approached you to ask any questions about this? A. No. Q. Okay. And what happened? Who was talking at this--during this meeting? A. He speak--most of the talking was done by the investigator. He was just asking, you know, asking me again how--about if I did send, you know, forward the comments to Mr. Sadowski. And basically that was it. And he--I mean he did say my name was going to remain anonymous and it was basically--it was
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292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS something, I wasn't aware that she was. Q. Did Sadowski tell you that she was going to talk to Rubino about this? A. No, he didn't say--he did not say anything to me about what was--what was, you know, how he was going to proceed. I was--I said I was kind of surprised when they called me by the investigator. Q. How were you called in by the investigator? Just explain what happened that day. A. They just called me to the office andQ. They, who is they? A. I think it was Ms.--it might have been Mr. Sadowski or Ms. Esposito because I was in chorus at the time. And then called me to be in chorus to go to the office. Q. So you got to the office and who was present? A. He was--an investigator was there and it might have been either one of them, one of the administrators. Im not sure if Ms. Esposito was there. She might have been there. Q. Was it one investigator or two? A. It was definitely one investigator. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS ten minutes and that was it. And he left. Q. He was the one who told you directly that it was--you were going to--he was going to keep you anonymous? A. He--I mean that's what he said, right. I did not--I did not ask him. He, you know, he said-but was--but that's what they always seen to tell you, right? You know, that you're names-Q. [Interposing] You've had this experience before? A. No, I'm saying but like, you know, when people make a report and they would like to be anonymous, you'll be anonymous. [Crosstalk] A. That's like the rule of thumb that you would think that the person, the reporter or whatever is going to remain anonymous. That's just, you know, I think we all assume that. Q. Well, did he also tell you that your identity may have to be disclosed at some point during that conversation? A. I don't--I don't recall. I don't think so. Q. And he also told you to keep
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295 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS everything confidential that was said there? A. He did say don't discuss this. You know, he did say don't discuss with anybody, you know, with staff, with staff and whoever. Q. Did he explain why? A. He just--he just said don't, just don't. consequences if you did? A. No, he didn't say--he didn't say that. He didn't, like, threaten me or anything. He just said, you know, it's, you know, just asked me just not to discuss any of this information with anybody. Q. Did he--but he didn't explain why? A. No, not specifically. He didn't say what the implications might be. Q. All right. A. I just figured it was best not to discuss it anyway. Q. Has anyone ever questioned you--and so you never disclosed that you had, earlier that morning--well, first of all, that interview with the investigator and the principal, did you discus with them that you had actually had had--there was previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS forward it and that was it. Q. But he didn't--he was probing about how long you'd been on Facebook with her, how long a Facebook friend you were with her, any of that? A. No, he just--he just asked me, like, the basic questions. That I was friends with her and just very basic. Q. Ms. Rubino remained in the school. I mean you reported this July 24th, correct, of 2010, I believe? A. July? THE HEARING OFFICER: June. Q. June 24th, 2010, correct? A. Yes, yes. Q. And she continued--she continued teaching the next school year? A. Yes. Q. Without--she had been removed from the classroom or anything? A. Right. Q. And, in fact, she was there even until February of this year, correct? A. Yes. Q. So no one took it as that serous that
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296 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS comments from Ms. Rubino about the drowning earlier that day? A. No, I didn't. And it wasn't even intentional. I just really didn't, you know. Because, as I said, we make so many posts and I comment on, you know, many posts that I didn't really even think about posts at that time. So I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't withholding it intentionally. He didn't ask me. If he did ask me, you know, I would refer to it. Q. So the investigator never asked you if there had been prior-A. [Interposing] No, no. Q. Is there a prior chain of conversations in Facebook about this? A. No, he didn't ask anything about-anything about that. It was just about that specificQ. [Interposing] Did he ask you about your previous contacts with Ms. Rubino on Facebook prior to that particular comment? A. No, not really. It just--was just, you know, very to the point, very specifically about, you know, that comment and just the fact that I did 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS she was-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] Objection. I don't believe this witness is qualified to answer that question. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. Q. As far as you understood, no one had removed her based on this comment, right? A. Well, she was--she was in the building. She was in the school. Q. And even after you were interviewed in October, she remained in the building, teaching the same--teaching the kids? A. Yeah, she was. Q. Were you aware of any--are you aware of any Facebook policy regarding what the DOE has regarding the use of Facebook? A. No, I am not. Q. When you use Facebook, do you expect that--what is your expectation about friends who can see your Facebook account? A. Well, it varies person to person, depending on what your settings are, privacy settings. I mean you could--you could have your settings open to everyone so everyone could see your postings,
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299 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS regardless if they have a Facebook account or not. Or you can-Q. [Interposing] You don't--you don't do that, though. You have--do you have, like, limited to certain people that you share-A. [Interposing] Right. Well, I mean anybody with common sense would have, you know, would have certain privacy settings on that--and maybe people just have, you know, only their friends can see their page. Q. Why do you say that's common sense? A. Because you just never know. I mean you never--it protects stuff but not from like, you know, saying stuff. It's just to protect yourself from people on the outside just, you know, just prying in. And you don't--you don't want, like, anybody to just go type in your name and see everything you wrote. And if you post pictures--people post pictures of their family. You don't--you don't want the general public, you know, looking through those things. Q. When you make--when you makes posts on Facebook--I assume the principal is not your friend on Facebook, right? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS -I don't think so. I was--I wasn't saying anything damaging, you know, about anybody in my school or, you know, my principal. Q. Did you say anything damaging about your employer? A. You mean the Department of Education? Q. Yeah. A. I couldn't say. I don't want to make that assumption either. Q. Could you see how it could be construed as perhaps potentially damaging to your employer? A. Because of--because of the word, because I used the word negligence? Q. Yes. A. Well, I said--like I said, I mean if-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I don't--I don't know that there's a question. THE HEARING OFFICER: Are you still looking for the answer to the same question? MR. GLASS: I didn't hear an answer to that question. A. Could you repeat the question? Q. What was my question? Would you--
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300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS A. No, no. Q. So you assume that the principal is never going to see what you're saying on Facebook, right? A. I would assume that, yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't--you know, I try to keep my posting, like, separate from--like you wouldn't--you wouldn't know I'm a teacher, really, from the postings because I think it's important just to keep it separate. So I mean if the principal did look at my postings, you know, I would never say anything, you know, anything really--I mean say anything school related because I like to keep it separate because you're right. You never know who could--who could see it. Q. Would it concern you if this posting got to the principal? A. No, I don't-Q. [Interposing] What is on Respondent's Exhibit 2? A. I don't think so. I don't think I said-Q. [Interposing] In your perception, you don't feel like you did anything wrong, right? A. Based on that comment? I don't think1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS would you consider this to be construed as damaging to your employer? A. Well, you can construe--I mean anybody can construe anything just to, you know, just from their point of view. Q. And you made a--you construed something about the posting you saw regarding Ms. Rubino and what was on Ms. Rubino's account, correct? A. Well, I guess I did. I did. Q. Okay. And, knowing Ms. Rubino, you didn't have--you didn't know any history of violence with her or anything like that, correct? A. Not that I know of, no. Q. As far as you know, she was a satisfactory teacher that might have had a bad day? A. We all--I mean we all have--we all have days. That's true. But I mean I wouldn't go as far as to compare, like, that comment to--I mean Ms. Rubino's comment, if that's what you're trying -- . Q. So would it be upsetting to you if this was revealed to your employer and led to disciplinary action? A. Actually, I would not--I would not be upset, no. Because I don't think it says anything--I
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303 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS don't think it says anything damaging or it doesn't-it's not implying anything. It's not--it's just--no, a girl--a girl drowned because people were not doing their job properly. I'm not--I didn't point out someone specifically but someone was at fault, I would think. Q. But you--I mean we understand your thought process in reporting this. You were concerned because you feel-A. [Interposing] About this comment or the other? Q. Ms. Rubino, the thing on Ms. Rubino's account. Your concern was what, that Ms. Rubino was going to act violently towards the children? A. No, it was just the nature. I was just--I said I was concerned about the nature of the comment that it's, you know, that's something that, you know, if that did get out somehow, that could be on, like, the--something that could be on, like, the front pages of a paper, just the nature of the comment. Because it was like--it was almost like making light of, you know, someone's death. Q. So you felt that would reflect poorly on the Department, right? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS you didn't disclose-A. [Interposing] No. Q. --it, you would face disciplinary consequences? A. He didn't say--he did not say that. Q. Well, if you didn't forward it, did you understand there would be a consequence to you? A. I didn't assume there would or wouldn't be. I mean he just said, you know, that's what we--you know, he thinks that's the best thing that we should do. Q. Since June 24th, have you had any conversations with him about where this has gone, this comment, the forwarding? Have you had conversations about this-A. [Interposing] Not with--no, not with him or Ms. Esposito, no. Q. I mean at the time that Ms. Rubino was removed, was there any conversation with Mr. Senatore? A. There was none, not with Mr. Sadowski or Ms. Esposito. Q. So you haven't had any conversations at all since that June 24th with Mr. Senatore about-THE HEARING OFFICER: [Interposing] That's
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304 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS A. As a school, as a staff, as, you know. Q. Okay. And your comment, you didn't feel the same way when you posted at 7:11 in the morning. You didn't feel that that could be construed as damaging to your employer? MR. GAMILS: I think we've been through this line of questioning. THE HEARING OFFICER: Sustained, asked and answered. Q. Did you tell Ms. Sadowski--Mr. Sadowski, at one point, that you just were uncomfortable forwarding this comment--forwarding this comment to him? A. You mean like at that conversation before I forwarded it? Q. On June 24th, did you ever tell him you felt uncomfortable forwarding this comment to him? A. I'm not exactly sure. I don't know if I did. Q. You might have, you just can't recall if-A. [Interposing] I don't remember if I said that specifically. Q. Did he threaten you in any way that if 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Mr. Senatore. A. You mean Mr. Sadowski? No. No, I have not. MR. GLASS: Just give me one minute. I'm probably finished. THE HEARING OFFICER: Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Ready? Back on the record. Mr. Glass? MR. GLASS: Just a few last questions. Q. Are you aware that Ms. Rubino, at a point, was an F status teacher? Do you know what that means? THE HEARING OFFICER: Which question is it? Are you aware that she was F status or do you know what it means? Q. Are you aware--first, do you know what an F status teacher is? A. I was kind of the impression F status means you're not--maybe you're not necessarily working there full time, maybe like three days. Usually, it refers to teachers that work there like three days a week or stuff like that.
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307 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS Q. And was she--were you aware that she was in that status for a while at the school? A. Was I aware when she was--well, I knew she was--when she was working only a few days a week as opposed to, you know, the entire week. Q. Okay. And was that that school year, do you know? Do you remember if she was F status that year? A. I know she worked every day, as far as this September 2010 school year. Q. How about the previous year, was she working every day? THE HEARING OFFICER: If you know. A. I believe so. Q. Have you--were you aware of Ms. Rubino having a grievance against the principal the prior year about her status in school? A. No, I did not. Q. Mr. Sadowski never disclosed that to you? A. No. Q. You know, in retrospect, would it-- do you regret not just telling Ms. Rubino about the comment rather than reporting it to Mr. Sadowski? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS THE HEARING OFFICER: No just he was asking him his opinion. His opinion has no bearing on whether or not an arm of the Department of Education takes certain actions. He was just being asked his opinion and, briefly, I'll allow an answer. A. Again, my--I really hadn't--that was not my goal, you know, to see Ms. Rubino with, you know, this trouble because of that. Again, Im not saying that it was right. I'm not saying I did anything wrong, you know, or the comment was okay. But I, you know, I said it wasn't my intention to, you know, to have, you know, this happen. Q. Did you have reason to believe that-any reason to believe htat if you said something to her she'd just taken the comment off and said thank you? A. Possibly. I said I mean hindsight is 20--I mean you can--you could always second guess your judgment, right? MR. GLASS: I have nothing further. THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Gamils, any redirect? MR. GAMILS: Just briefly. RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
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308 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - CROSS - GLASS A. That's a different question. I mean in light of what happened or in light--I mean do I reqret for myself or do I regret for Ms. Rubino? I mean can you be more specific? Do I regret what I did about reporting it or-Q. [Interposing] Do you feel like it's a big blown out of proportion based on why you're here today? A. I mean I don't think I did any--I mean I don't think I did anything wrong. And, you know, things could always be handled different ways. I'm not saying which way it was, you know, the best way or the right way. That's, you know, I just chose to do it that way, you know, at that time. I don't want to-I really don't want to say whether I, you know, whether I regret it or not. Q. Do you feel it's been blown out of portion, though, that it resulted in a disciplinary hearing against Ms. Rubino? A. I don't want to-MR. GAMILS: [Interposing] I'm going to object. I don't believe it's the witness' choice how the case ends up in a disciplinary hearing. He filed a report. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS BY MR. GAMILS Q. Mr. Senatore, looking at Respondent's Exhibit 2, I notice that there are, besides yourself and Christine Rubino, several other pople engaged in this conversation. A. Correct. Q. Do you know who those people are? A. Just one of them. Q. Which one is that? A. The one at the bottom, Anthony. Q. Anthony? A. Anthony Alefieres [phonetic], whatever his last name is. Q. Frikazakis [phonetic]? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. Is that someone at the school, at P.S. 203? A. Yes. Q. Is that someone that you and Ms. Rubino shared as a mutual friend on Facebook? A. I believe so, at that time, yeah. Or, actually, I mean he was--Christine did the initial comment. It might have--she might have been just her friend. I'm not sure if she was my friend too.
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311 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS Q. Was this someone that you're familiar with? A. Yeah, yes. I can't say she was my friend on Facebook at the time. I'm not sure of it. She wasn't commenting on my post. Q. Is that individual an employee at P.S. 203? A. Yes. Q. Now, on--I believe, during your testimony counsel asked you--referred to the date June 24th, 2010. Isn't it correct that the incident was reported to Mr. Sadowski on June 23rd, 2010? Do you recall? A. If it was the date that the email was sent, that was the 23rd, then it was. Q. Are you referring to Department's Exhibit 7? A. Well, yes. It says--it says Wednesday, so it was the 23rd. Q. And was that the date that you cut and pasted the comments from your page and sent them to Mr. Sadowski? A. Yes. Q. And was it on June 23rd, 2010, that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS A. Correct, yes. Q. If you saw another staff member posting those comments today, would that still concern you? A. I think it would be upsetting no matter who--no matter who posted it. It was not--it was nothing about the person individually, it was about the comment. MR. GAMILS: I have nothing further. MR. GLASS: Some more questions. RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GLASS Q. How many--how many mutual Facebook friend teachers did you have at the time, do you know? THE HEARING OFFICER: I think--I think he said it. A. I said over ten. I wasn't sure what the exact number was. Q. As far as you know, you're the only one who reported anything about this, right? A. As far as I know. Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Anthony about this? A. No.
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312 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS you received this comment from Christine Rubino stating after today I'm thinking a beach sounds like a wonderful idea for my fifth graders. I hate their guts. They are all the devil's spawns."? A. I read it on that day, yes. Q. Was that the comment that you received? A. Yes, on the--on the 23rd. Q. And did you also receive the comment from Scott J. Lavine on that day, responding to Ms. Rubino's comments saying, "Oh, you would not let little Kwami float away"? A. Yeah, that was posted as well. Q. Did that also appear on your page? A. Yes. Yes, it did. Because she--it was a comment, you know, on a post that she had--she had made. So it showed up on mine, even though he's not one of my friends. Q. Okay. And you don't know who that individual is? A. No, I do not. Q. And you received her subsequent response on your page stating, "Yes, I would not throw a lifejacket in for a million"? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-CROSS - GLASS Q. And, by the way, when you gave the information to Mr. Sadowski, did you give him your passwords so he could see the account or you just cut and pasted the text off your own Facebook account? A. I just--I would not give--do that. I just cut and pasted the information from my page. Q. So Sadowski never would have had access to-A. [Interposing] No, of course not. Q. --cut and pasted out of it? And you never gave access to the investigators to her personal-A. [Interposing] No, of course not. Q. To your account so she could access her account? A. No. MR. GLASS: I have nothing further. RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GAMILS Q. You indicated, during your testimony, that sometime after reporting this incident you no longer were friends with Ms. Rubino on Facebook? A. Correct but I couldn't give you--I couldn't give you the exact dates I decided to drop--
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315 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENATORE - RE-DIRECT - GAMILS when I dropped a lot of friends between MySpace-Q. [Interposing] At the time investigators spoke with you in October of 2010, do you know if you were still friends with Ms. Rubino at that time? A. I really couldn't tell you because I said there's been several--I had, like, 150 friends and a lot of them friends I thought I had and I didn't have because it's--people were questioning this. Oh, I thought he was--I thought I was a friend, right? So I really couldn't tell you for sure at that point. Q. And once you're not friends with someone any more, you no longer have access to certain areas in their page, correct? A. If they have set the privacy settings. The thing is you don't notice right away because, like I said, you have so many people posting it takes a while before you notice if someone's not there anymore or if they--and when someone drops you, they don't-Facebook doesn't alert you when someone drops you. You've got to go find out yourself. MR. GAMILS: I have no further questions. MR. GLASS: I have nothing further. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINA RUBINO - 02/28/11 MR. GAMILS: Yeah. The Department expects to call Mr. Sadowski and R.K., J.H., A.S. I don't know if we're going to call all of those witnesses that day. But that would be our witness list. THE HEARING OFFICER: And are those last three the student witnesses you had referred to? MR. GAMILS: Correct, correct. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay, fine. MR. GAMILS: We plan on-MR. GLASS: [Interposing] I'm sorry. Can you just repeat that? You said R.K., J.H. Who was the other student? THE HEARING OFFICER: A.S. MR. GAMILS: A.S. And we're going to have the principal, Ms. Esposito, testify on Thursday. THE HEARING OFFICER: At the moment, you assume that. We'll see, obviously. MR. GAMILS: Right, right, obviously. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. But, obviously, she's not coming on Wednesday. That's what you're saying? MR. GAMILS: She is not. THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Off the record. (The hearing adjourned at 5:30 p.m.)
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316 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHRISTINA RUBINO - 02/28/11 Senatore. You're concluded for today. I would caution you, though, as the investigator did quite some time ago, please do not discuss your testimony today or anything else that transpired here with anybody, at any time. This is still an ongoing hearing and there might be other people from your school or whatever who might be coming here. Even if they said to you did they yell and scream and what color was the room, just say that I really can't say. Refer them to Mr. Gamils if anybody asks you any questions. Okay? MR. SENATORE: Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you very much. Off the record. [Off the record] [On the record] THE HEARING OFFICER: Back on the record. Due to the hour, Mr. Gamils, I suggest we conclude for the day. MR. GAMILS: Absolutely. THE HEARING OFFICER: And, Mr. Glass, okay? MR. GLASS: Yes. THE HEARING OFFICER: We will resume on Wednesday, the 2nd at 10:00 a.m. CERTIFICATE I, Brandi Dean, do hereby certify that the foregoing typewritten transcript of proceedings in the matter of New York City Department of Education v. Christine Rubino, File No. 17,116, was prepared using the required transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the proceedings. Signature: _______________________________ Date: March 3, 2011
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319 Student Index Josiah Howard [phonetic], J.H. Amanda Smith [phonetic], A.S. Revon King [phonetic], R.K.

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