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realized that indeed this was a matter worthy of congressional interest. A Well, I don't know that I can say precisely when I might
characterize it, and I hope I'm not going too far abroad, but I think they were doing more damage control than anything. My view is that the whole matter of the Department's response in this case was a disaster. That as a result, it
came to fruition that the committee staff had to be more aggressive and assertive in attempting to get information from the Department, and as a result, there was more adverse publicity towards ATF than was warranted if we had cooperated from the very beginning. did was damage control after a while. And a lot of what they Their position on
things changed weekly and it was hard for us to catch up on it, but it was very clear that they were running the show. Mr. Castor. I'm going to mark an Exhibit.
[Exhibit No. 1 was for identification.] BY MR. CASTOR: Q Exhibit number 1 is marked, it's a letter dated
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Q A
Correct. That was not a specific strategy that I have ever But they did
tell us to, A, go after people other than straw purchasers, to use more sophisticated techniques and to try to get the cartel plaza -- the cartel members and the money transferors, and the people who had taken the guns to Mexico. Now, I don't know whether agent Voth read those memos and said, oh, they opened the door for me, I can go through it now or not. the Department. I don't know. But that was the direction of
worked with DAG Ogden to provide some direction and leadership for the Southwest border activity. And he did.
In fact, on the way back from Phoenix after the strike force office was open, and he went down there for the press conference, I sat next to him for a while and I talked to him about the failure of the Department to give clear guidance and coordinated, collaborative effort along the Southwest border. And I think in part because of that, he
did create the Southwest border strategy group and came up with policies which were good policies. In this case, it
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accommodations made between the Hill and ATF and DOJ has to how information was shared. It was very frustrating to all
of us, and it appears thoroughly to us that the Department is really trying to figure out a way to push the information away from their political appointees at the Department. Q Do you have any knowledge whether and when, if you
do have knowledge, this significant information was knowable by the Department. A Q Which significant information. The fact that this firearms trafficking network may
have been funded by the FBI informants. A I don't know when they could have known about it. All I know is when I first
alerted them to the fact, and that was after we learned about it. Q You had expressed some frustration earlier this
morning when we were speaking about the Office of Legislative Affairs, that you wanted to brief Senator Grassley as soon as possible but they wouldn't permit you. A Q Right. Could you walk us through what happened?
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Q A
-- as to how McMahon got the affidavit. I would assume that the authority to authorize
these types of things should be pushed down to the DAD because everything can't come up to Chait, and certainly Hoover can't handle another thing. I mean, he is just
overwhelmed with things that are going on in the agency. So whether -- so I wouldn't be surprised either if it should stay at the DAD level unless there is something extraordinary about it that raises a question that you need the Assistant Director's approval on. Q Okay. And then the Exhibit 10 was just the exhibit
that referenced Voth and that had to go through the DAG's office. A Well, and let me say this. Again, I don't know of I
wouldn't be surprised if Voth who is a new supervisor, hadn't been involved in this process before, got the DAG confused with the AAG, which would be the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division. So, if he is saying
that, I would make sure first that he understands the difference between the DAG and the AAG. Because I still
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was marked for identification.] BY MR. DAVIS: Q I will give you a second to read it. There's a lot of text
down there. So at the beginning of Mr. Gillett's email, it says that "OSII has not yet finished a link-diagram on this investigation; therefore, there is no chart in existence diagramming this investigation. Lorren
Leadmon and crew are currently working on such a link-diagram chart, but it is not yet complete." So the link-diagram chart, is that something that you ordered to occur? A Or how did that come into existence? I know that sometime around December the 17th I think we did
a briefing, and it had to do with -- somebody wanted a briefing, so I arranged it. I don't know if it was my boss, if it was Mr. Newell, And I think they
were trying to tie the Reynosa seizure in with what was going on with Fast and Furious. So I think it was about this date is when the briefing happened. And it was on -- I believe it was on the 7th floor conference room. Q A Uh-huh. And I'm trying to think if Mr. Melson was there. I know at
least Billy Hoover was there, the deputy. But we had two charts. there, also. And I think some people from DOJ were And
And the names Kevin Carlisle and Joe Cooley came up.
those names came up because I asked Kevin O'Keefe, who had been in
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contact with them. But we had two charts; I think Lorren had two charts. One was
a link chart with the Reynosa seizure, which had nothing to do with Fast and Furious. That was a separate area. And then it had the -- I And it had pictures of I don't know if it
was the Nogales, the Naco seizures. people who were recurring buyers. Q A Uh-huh.
executive staff on the 7th floor on or about the 17th. Q A Q Okay. And you were at that briefing?
Yes, I was. Okay. And can you recall what was mentioned, what was
discussed, what the mood was in the room? A I know the link chart, the one with the Reynosa seizure, was I think they were looking -- speaking with DOJ to see what Because I think, in
confusing.
the past, not having worked in those areas, that the prosecution may not have been coming along like they wanted to with the straw purchasers. Q So I think there was some discussion on that. It's my understanding that there were some
Okay.
difficulties between your group, OSII, and the folks in Phoenix with regards to information sharing. of NFORCE. Folks from your group were locked out
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