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hien.nguyenquoc
Power-User

08/05/2010 12:20 PM

Power Generator Sizing

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Hi everybody, I am trying to size one diesel power generator to feed the 01 cooling water pumps. Its capacity is 160kW by Soft starter. Another 03 ones are also water pumps with 30kW each and star/delta starters. Question is that what I should keep my eyes on during the calculation. Since I have many references that give me different methods. One said we just add up the total load then give some percent to compensate for the efficiency of the generator, one said I need to consider the starting current of these pumps, one said I need to consider the starting capacity of the pumps and if the generator can delivery enough power for starting. It might be OK. I am considering about the starting current of motors that use soft starter. It starting current may increase up to 3 or 4 percent of the nominal current. So, we will need to consider that or we just can ignore it because the starting time is quite short? I might have something in the mind already but I want to post it here to get your advices from experienced people. Tks, Hien __________________ Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong
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Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: BH, Vietnam Posts: 438 Good Answers: 1

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#2 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/05/2010 6:42 PM (score 3) #5 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/25/2010 7:17 PM (score 2) Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:
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#7 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/27/2010 7:30 PM (score 1)

Unredundant
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Sustainable Engineering Transportation

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/05/2010 12:36 PM

Some generators voltage regulators are negatively affected by soft starters and VFDs. I would suggest contacting the generator manufacturer
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/58246/Power-Generator-Sizing[3/26/2013 10:27:09 AM]

CR4 - Thread: Power Generator Sizing

concerning these issues.

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msamad
Guru

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/05/2010 6:42 PM

#2 In reply to #1

I would like to ask you to see this thread first: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/45119

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, USA Posts: 956 Good Answers: 236

Now, come to your point: You have total load 160 KW + 3 x 30 KW = 250 KW I am assuming all are continuous. So, in terms of capacity, you at least need a generator of the capacity 250 KW. Now consider these two possible worse starting scenarios: (1) All of the 30 KW motor running and you will be starting the 160 KW motor (soft starter) (2) 2 of the 30 KW motor and the 160 KW motor running and you will be starting the third 30 KW motors (start delta starter) In the scenario (1), you need 2 to 3 (average 2.5) times capacity of generator to start it. So, the generator capacity required is 30 x 3 + 2.5 x 160 = 490 KW In scenario (2), you need almost 4 times (worst case like DOL starting), capacity to start it. So, the generator capacity required is 160 + 2 x 30 + 4 x 30 = 340 KW. The scenario (1) is the worst case starting scenario. So, based on this scenario, the capacity required is 490 KW. You can select 500 KW generator. However, if the system allows you to start 160 KW motor every time keeping all other 3 motor stopped. Then you can select 160 x 2.5 = 400 KW generator. You also need to consider the future load and add it on top of this required capacity. - MS __________________ "All my technical advices in this forum must be consulted with and approved by a local registered professional engineer before implementation" Mohammed Samad (Linkedin Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/msamad)
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hien.nguyenquoc
Power-User

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/06/2010 9:27 AM

#3 In reply to #2

MS, tks for youe reply, Hien __________________ Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong Register to Reply

Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: BH, Vietnam Posts: 438 Good Answers: 1

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/58246/Power-Generator-Sizing[3/26/2013 10:27:09 AM]

CR4 - Thread: Power Generator Sizing

hien.nguyenquoc
Power-User

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/24/2010 12:44 AM

#4 In reply to #2

Ms, it is me again for the question. As I referred to ABB soft starter handbook, it is implied that normally the sort starter's stating current is around 3 to 4 times FLC. Since the motors are rather big so could you explain it again?
Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: BH, Vietnam Posts: 438 Good Answers: 1

Nevertheless, I referred to some other manual provided by CAT - generator supplier. They recommended one calculation method based on NEMA std and it is so complicated . To do do this, I must gather many information such as SkVA/hp, RLC, Motor code... But these things are just applied within the US and we are not. In fact, do we need to follow this procedure? I took my looks over some suppliers like CAT, Siemens... they also recommended the same procedure. To be concluded, I found that whatever the method they are using, the original is to based on the starting capacity of the motor. I have been struggling on how to grasp one good and simple method of generator sizing. I dont want to design by myself and I want to follow some standardized procedures but it seems impossible. Hien __________________ Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong Register to Reply

msamad
Guru

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/25/2010 7:17 PM

#5 In reply to #4

The calculation that I posted in comment # 2 is a type of short-cut method. Here is more detail calculation for the generator capacity (though the final result is same):
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, USA Posts: 956 Good Answers: 236

Loads: Water Pump 1 motor: 30 KW, 0.8 p.f, 380V, 57A Water Pump 2 motor: 30 KW, 0.8 p.f, 380V, 57A Water Pump 2 motor: 30 KW, 0.8 p.f, 380V, 57A Cooling Water Pump motor: 160 KW, 0.8 p.f, 380V, 304A, (assumed starting p.f = 0.25, DOL stating current is 6 times of FLA) (The p.f and voltage are assumed 0.8 and 380V respectively) Before the starting of the Cooling Water pump: Total running load (rKW): 90 KW Total running KVA (rKVA): 90/0.8 = 112 KVA During starting of the Cooling Water pump: DOL Starting Cooling Water KVA (sKVA) = (1.732 x 380 x 6 x 304 x 1.2)/1000 = 1440 KVA Soft Starter Starting Cooling Water KVA (sKVA) = 1440 x 0.6 = 864 KVA Starting Cooling Water KW = 1440 x 0.25 = 360 KW Soft Starter Starting Cooling Water KW = 864 x 0.25 = 216 KW (The multiplier 1.2 is for 20% contingency and 0.6 for soft starter starting, it is assumed that the soft starter reduces 40% of starting current, starting current 4 times of FLA) Total KVA during starting (sKVA) = 864 + 112 = 976 KVA Total KW during starting (sKW) = 216 + 90 = 306 KW (The starting time of the motor is considered 15 seconds)

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/58246/Power-Generator-Sizing[3/26/2013 10:27:09 AM]

CR4 - Thread: Power Generator Sizing

After the starting of the Cooling Water pump: Total running load (rKW): 90 + 160 = 250 KW Total running KVA (rKVA): 250/0.8 = 312 KVA Now, you have to select a generator whose continuous capacity is 312 KVA and momentary capacity (for 15 seconds) is at least 976 KVA. Also select the engine whose continuous capacity is 250 KW and momentary capacity (for 15 seconds) is at least 306 KW. If you select a 500 KW generator (p.f 0.8), the KVA rating of the generator is 500/0.8 = 625 KVA. Every generator has some overload capacity for short time duration. The NEMA standard generators can withstand 50% load for at least 30 sec. Considering the overload capacity, the generator has the capability to supply 625 x 1.5 = 937 KVA for at least 30 seconds (and more than 976 KVA for 15 seconds for sure). So, 500 KW generator should work fine for these loads. Voltage dip is also one factor that requires selecting the generator reactances but in this type of load, it is not so important. I also would suggest you to consult with the generator manufacturer for final selection. Note for Hien: I sent you the Caterpillar work sheet (that you emailed me yesterday) with filling out the information of you loads including my comments. Please check your email. - MS __________________ "All my technical advices in this forum must be consulted with and approved by a local registered professional engineer before implementation" - Mohammed Samad (Linkedin Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/msamad)
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hien.nguyenquoc
Power-User

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/26/2010 10:32 PM

MS, I suggest to close the topic here since your answer said it all. It is very useful and I think I have got what I have been looking for. Hope you will be always fine. Please contribute more for this forum. Thank you, Hien
Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: BH, Vietnam Posts: 438 Good Answers: 1

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#7 In reply to #6

msamad
Guru

Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/27/2010 7:30 PM

I have provided answers to some Hien's questions by email. For further reference, I pasted them here so that other engineers can be benefited in future:
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, USA Posts: 956 Good Answers: 236

1. At this case, we can start the biggest cooling pump first, then we go for the rest pumps. The generator capacity would be much reduced. Right? ' Yes, it will reduce to at least 50 KW to 100 KW 2. What does "voltage dip" mean? And 10, 20 or 30% are our requirement? It means if I am the customer, I will request the supplier for this? Voltage dip is the momentary voltage drop within the generator during first few cycles of the motor starting. It is due to the synchronous reactance of the generator. The higher the generator capacity, the lower the reactance value, the lower is the voltage dip. See this link: http://www.re-volt.us/pdf/CPS_info_sheet_38_Voltage_Dip.pdf. This curve is almost same as NEMA 32.18.2 (definition of voltage dip). 3. Is that Ok with 30% voltage dip? Does it affect to the controller e.g the contactor coils will be unable to hold closing? In the case this generator will have to provide power for the lighting system, will 30% voltage dip be accepted? Unless the system has very voltage sensitive loads (sensitive relay, contactor), 30% voltage dip is ok.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/58246/Power-Generator-Sizing[3/26/2013 10:27:09 AM]

CR4 - Thread: Power Generator Sizing

4. Is voltage dip different from voltage drop and how it is different? Normally, we need the voltage drop during motor starting to be kept within 10%. I don't understand why they have three kinds of voltage dip? Yes. As already mentioned, the voltage dip is the momentary (few cycles) voltage drop within the generator, voltage drop is the within the cable and transformers. 5 . If some educational books say that we just need to gather all of starting current of the motors. Then choose the generator whose running current is equal of higher than these total starting currents. Is that not clear and incorrect? This is correct if all of motors are started same time. However, it is even not 100% correct. 6. I have contacted some local suppliers and they obviously don't understand about the sKVA that the generator can provide during motor starting. These are so technical terms; generally local suppliers don't have this level of knowledge. They generally use some short-cut calculation. 7. If all these things have been go through, do I need to double check by recalculate the "voltage drop" in the cable during motor starting. We need it within 10%. Yes, it is correct. You can go up to 20% for total voltage drop during starting (for NEMA motor). After starting is over, it should be not more than 5%. See more information in these sites: http://ecmweb.com/training/electrical_basics/electric_sizing_gensets_large http://www.buyerzone.com/facilities/generators/rbic-power-quality-08.html http://www.myemergencygenerator.com/site/1324593/page/555882 http://www.gregorypoole.com/products/electricpowergenerator/Documents/LEBE5294-02%20Electric% 20Power%20Application%20Sizing.pdf http://www.dieselduck.ca/machine/03%20electricity/alternator.htm http://www.cashmanequipment.com/UserFiles/Uploaded/cms/motor-start-concerns.pdf http://www.gillettegenerators.com/sizing/sizing03.html http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?p=1161144 http://www.buyerzone.com/facilities/generators/rbic-power-quality-01.html http://www.kwietpower.com/_docs/motor_starting/sizing_inst.pdf http://www.kohlerpower.com/common/pdfs/83474_GensetMotorStarting_Final.pdf - MS __________________ "All my technical advices in this forum must be consulted with and approved by a local registered professional engineer before implementation" - Mohammed Samad (Linkedin Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/msamad)
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JRaef
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Re: Power Generator Sizing

08/27/2010 8:17 PM

#8 In reply to #7

Nice work. __________________ ** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
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gkkumar
Associate Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 47

Re: Power Generator Sizing

09/19/2010 10:57 AM

#9 In reply to #2

if we using VVVFD or VFD what will be the capacity of generator for 250 KW motor Register to Reply

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#2 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/05/2010 6:42 PM (score 3) #5 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/25/2010 7:17 PM (score 2) Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:
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#7 "Re: Power Generator Sizing " by msamad on 08/27/2010 7:30 PM (score 1)

Users who posted comments: gkkumar (1); hien.nguyenquoc (3); JRaef (1); msamad (3); Unredundant (1)

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