JX 0126

STEVEN FITZGERALD January 29, 2009
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
1 REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:
2 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE,
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION
CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION NO. 05-4182 K2 3 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION
JUDGE DUVAL
PERTAINS TO: MRGO AND ROBINSON 4 (BY: MICHELE GREIF, ESQUIRE)
(No. 06-2268) 5 (BY: RUPERT MITSCH, ESQUIRE)
Deposition of STEVEN D. FITZGERALD, 6 P.O. Box 888
P.E., given at the offices of the United States
Department of Justice, 400 Poydras Street, 9th 7 Benjamin Franklin Station
Floor, New Orleans, Louisiana 70130, on January
29th, 2009. 8 Washington, D.C. 20044
9 202-616-4289
10
11 ALSO PRESENT:
12 ROBERT FISHER, ESQ.
13
REPORTED BY:
JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR 14 PARTICIPATING VIA I-DEP:
CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
15 MATTHIAS KOK
16 CHARLES LANIER, ESQ.
17 KARA MILLER, ESQ.
18 ELISA GILBERT, ESQ.
19 BENJAMIN RODGERS, ESQ.
20 ELWOOD STEVENS, ESQ.
21
22 VIDEOGRAPHER:
23 GILLEY DELORIMIER (DEPO-VUE)
24
25
Page 1 Page 3
1 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX

2 ELWOOD C. STEVENS, JR., APLC 2
3 (BY: ELWOOD C. STEVENS, JR., ESQUIRE) 3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 1205 Victor II Boulevard 4
5 Morgan City, Louisiana 70380 5 MR. STEVENS .................................6
6 985-384-8611 6 EXHIBIT INDEX
7 - AND - 7
8 THE GILBERT FIRM, LLC 8 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
9 (BY: ELISA GILBERT, ESQUIRE) 9 Exhibit 1 ................................16
10 325 E. 57th Street 10 Exhibit 2 ................................23
11 New York, N.Y. 10022 11 Exhibit 3 ................................57
12 212-286-8503 12 Exhibit 4 ...............................149
13 - AND - 13 Exhibit 5 ...............................156
14 SHER, GARNER, CAHILL, RICHTER, KLEIN & 14 Exhibit 6 ...............................176
15 HILBERT, L.L.C. 15
16 (BY: MATTHEW CLARK, ESQUIRE) 16 REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
17 909 Poydras Street, 28th Floor 17
18 New Orleans, Louisiana 70112 18 By Mr. Stevens ............................ 170
19 504-299-2100 19
20 20
21 21 JOINT EXHIBIT
22 22
23 23
JX-0126
24 24
25 25
Page 2 Page 4
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
1 STIPULATION 1 Q. And that's what the rule requires.

2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 How many previous experiences have you
3 among counsel for the parties hereto that the 3 had in litigation, let's say?
4 deposition of the aforementioned witness may be 4 A. Either two or three.
5 taken for all purposes permitted within the 5 Q. Okay. Well, you've given a few
6 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, in accordance 6 depositions, made a few court appearances, I
7 with law, pursuant to notice; 7 trust.
8 That all formalities, save reading 8 A. Only one.
9 and signing of the original transcript by the 9 Q. Okay. Well, I don't know how it all
10 deponent, are hereby specifically waived; 10 happened in your other case, but in this case
11 That all objections, save those as to 11 just some basic ground rules would maybe be
12 the form of the question and the responsiveness 12 wise to share with you. A, I'm from Opelousas
13 of the answer, are reserved until such time as 13 and I'm kind of long-winded, so make sure I
14 this deposition, or any part thereof, is used 14 finish my question before you start your
15 or sought to be used in evidence. 15 answer, it will make for a cleaner transcript.
16 16 Because Joe here is going to type it in the
17 17 same order that it's spoken, half a sentence,
18 * * * 18 half an answer, half a question, half an
19 19 answer, it reads choppy.
20 20 If I confuse you or ask a question
21 21 that you don't understand, stop me and we'll
22 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR, 22 see if we can straighten it out.
23 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State 23 Typically, in my experience certainly
24 of Louisiana, officiated in administering the 24 with me as a lawyer and when I depose engineers
25 oath to the witness. 25 we have to get some definitions going early on
Page 5 Page 7
1 STEVEN D. FITZGERALD, P.E., 1 so we speak the same language, because

2 8306 Pheasant Glen Drive, Spring, Texas 77379, 2 engineers think in different terms than
3 a witness named in the above stipulation, 3 lawyers, probably for a good reason.
4 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 4 But again, if I ask something that
5 testified on his oath as follows: 5 calls for a technical term, you explain it to
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 6 me. And I'm slow but educable and eventually
7 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, as you just heard, my 7 I'll catch on and we'll get our questions
8 name is Elwood Stevens. I'm from Morgan City 8 straight.
9 and I'm going to be the person asking you 9 You have a right to answer questions
10 questions today. When I'm done, these other 10 fully, I have a right to ask them. Ms. Greif
11 lawyers have a right to ask questions as well. 11 has the right to object to any of my questions.
12 Typically it won't happen, but it's certainly 12 She's is not going to object to your answer,
13 their right to do so. 13 she can only object to my questions. Okay? If
14 Have you given many depositions 14 she wants to object, please let her get her
15 before? 15 objection on the record, I'll let her say
16 A. Not many. 16 whatever she needs to say, but let me get my
17 Q. Okay. I noticed in your CV you had 17 question out, we'll get the objection resolved,
18 participated in one previous litigation for the 18 and then you're going to probably be asked to
19 Harris County Flood Control District, in the 19 answer the question anyway, and then you answer
20 last four years at least. Is that the only 20 that question. And if you would, answer the
21 case you've been involved in as a witness? 21 question, and if you feel a need to explain
22 A. No. 22 tell me afterwards and I'll let you do that.
23 Q. Okay. So in the last four years 23 Okay? But answer my question first and then
24 that's the only case you've been involved in. 24 you can explain.
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 All right. If you would, I guess,
Page 6 Page 8
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
1 just for the record, give us your full name and 1 construction drawings and put them out for bid,
2 professional address. 2 for projects for the Harris County Flood
3 A. My full name is Steven Dee, D-E-E, 3 Control District.
4 Fitzgerald, and my professional address is 4 Q. And that looks like the position you
5 Harris County Flood Control District, 9900 5 might have held the longest before chief
6 Northwest Freeway, Houston, Texas 77092. 6 engineer. Now, you've been chief engineer
7 Q. Okay. And by whom are you employed? 7 longer than you were the capital improvements
8 A. Harris County Flood Control District. 8 coordinator.
9 Q. What's your position with the Harris 9 A. Yes. I believe so.
10 County Flood Control District? 10 Q. Okay. From '97 to now, eleven years,
11 A. Chief engineer. 11 you've been the chief engineer of the Harris
12 Q. And how long have you been with them? 12 County Flood Control District.
13 A. Twenty-seven years. 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. Where did you work before that? 14 Q. What are your duties and
15 A. Engineering firm Turner, Collie and 15 responsibilities as the chief engineer?
16 Braden. 16 A. Several. One is to provide guidance
17 Q. And what did you do for Turner, Collie 17 and advice to other engineers in the
18 and Braden? 18 departments that are working on capital
19 A. I was a graduate engineer. 19 improvement projects or planning studies. I
20 Q. And with the Harris County Flood 20 also assist the watershed coordination
21 Control District, you're the chief engineer 21 department that I was in at one time when they
22 today. But if you would, take us through your 22 have questions about the plans or drainage
23 twenty-seven year history with, them. What 23 reports that they get. I assist them with
24 positions you've held and, more importantly, 24 those. That's one of my jobs. The other one
25 what duties and responsibilities you had. 25 is I'm the flood watch leader for our group
Page 9 Page 11
1 A. I started out in 1981 as a watershed 1 that when we have a storm we monitor what's
2 coordinator. Then I went to -- after that, I 2 happening during the storm, through rain gauges
3 was the capital improvements department 3 and radar, and assess what's going on and try
4 manager. And then after that my position was 4 to provide information to other public
5 chief engineer. So that's the three positions 5 officials about what's going on to help make
6 I've held in that twenty-seven years. 6 decisions during the storms themselves. And
7 Q. Watershed coordinator, what does he or 7 then the recovery afterwards, trying to
8 she do? 8 collect -- we try to collect as much
9 A. I was assigned some watersheds and was 9 information as we can about the flood itself,
10 responsible for reviewing construction drawings 10 if it did flood.
11 and drainage plans from mainly engineers who 11 Q. All right.
12 are representing new developments, engineers 12 A. And so --
13 representing public agencies that wanted to 13 Q. Let me ask you this: In some of your
14 build roads or bridges, and our job was to 14 work you have had association with the U.S.
15 review them to see if they were in compliance 15 Army Corps of Engineers, correct?
16 with Harris County flood control 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 criterion/standards. 17 Q. All right. You were a program manager
18 Q. Okay. And of course capital 18 at some point for the Army Corps of Engineers?
19 improvement department, I think we kind of all 19 A. Would you repeat the question?
20 they what that's about, but go ahead and tell 20 Q. Were you a program manager for the
21 us a little bit. 21 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers?
22 A. Yes, sir. The primary objective of 22 A. No, sir.
23 the department was to work on preliminary 23 Q. Okay. I don't know where I got that.
24 engineering analysis, work up preliminary 24 I thought I read that in one of your -- the
25 engineering reports and then prepare 25 listings in your CV. But tell us about your
Page 10 Page 12
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
1 association with the U.S. Army Corps of 1 retained, if you will, to do work in connection
2 Engineers. When have you worked with them and 2 with this case by the Corps of Engineers?
3 in what capacity? 3 A. Sometime in mid to late --
4 A. The Harris County Flood Control 4 MS. GREIF:
5 District is a local sponsor for projects for 5 Can I just step in here? The
6 the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and I was one 6 Corps I don't think never contacted
7 of the earlier engineers that got involved with 7 him.
8 the projects that were being designed and built 8 MR. STEVENS:
9 in Harris County. And I play different roles 9 That was my --
10 working with the Corps of Engineers, but 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
11 normally I'm not the project manager for each 11 Q. Was it the Corps or the DOJ? Who
12 of the projects. I work with all the projects, 12 hired you to work in this case?
13 working at a little higher level with trying to 13 A. The Department of Justice.
14 make sure we understand the policy, the 14 Q. All right. When were you first
15 procedures and the funding for the projects. 15 contacted by the Department of Justice to do
16 So that's what I do now. And I use the term 16 work in this case?
17 program manager -- it means different things. 17 A. It would be in mid to late 2007. I
18 But that's just kind of a -- what I use as a 18 don't know the exact time.
19 way to describe what I do at the Harris County 19 Q. Okay. Mid being June, late being
20 Flood Control District in association with 20 October? Somewhere in the late summer, early
21 Corps of Engineers projects. 21 fall?
22 Q. In connection with the Corps of 22 A. Yes, could have been July, August, but
23 Engineers projects, has the Corps ever paid any 23 I don't remember.
24 portion of your salary? 24 Q. Of '07.
25 A. No, sir. 25 A. In that time frame.
Page 13 Page 15
1 Q. All right. Do they fund work projects 1 Q. And since that time, do you have an
2 that you then supervise for Harris County? 2 understanding of how much work you have done, I
3 A. It's the typical relationship with the 3 mean hours have you billed on this case since
4 Corps of Engineers where a local sponsor has 4 July of '07?
5 certain responsibilities, and the Corps of 5 A. Um -- vaguely, yes.
6 Engineers does, and they do bring funding to 6 Q. Give us an estimate of how many hours.
7 fund their portion or the federal share of the 7 A. I'm going to guess about 100.
8 project that's done in Harris County. 8 Q. Okay. And at $150 an hour -- I'm
9 Q. But in terms of money for Steven 9 horrible with math, that's why I went to law
10 Fitzgerald, has the Corps of Engineers ever 10 school. I'm not an engineer. A hundred times
11 written checks directly to you, or do you, you 11 a hundred fifty dollars an hour is ten thousand
12 know, have any financial gain of any kind from 12 five hundred dollars? Am I right? Never trust
13 work for the Corps of Engineers separate and 13 my math.
14 apart from your expert work in this case. 14 A. Yes, I guess probably a little bit
15 We'll get to that in a minute. 15 more time than that. Might have been a hundred
16 A. No, sir. 16 and fifty hours. I don't know. I haven't
17 Q. In connection with this case, you are 17 thought about that in a while.
18 a retained expert, are you not, by the Army 18 Q. That sort of reminds me of something I
19 Corps of Engineers? 19 need to do anyway. Let's mark for
20 A. No, sir. 20 identification as Deposition Exhibit Number 1 a
21 Q. Are you being paid for your time. 21 copy of the Amended Notice.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Have you seen a copy of this notice
23 Q. $150 an hour. 23 before?
24 A. Yes, sir. 24 (Exhibit 1 was marked for
25 Q. When were you first contacted or 25 identification and is attached hereto.)
Page 14 Page 16
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
1 A. No, sir. 1 didn't bring his entire file.

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
3 Q. If I would turn to -- the first two 3 Q. Correspondence, including E-mail
4 pages is a notice, it says where it's going to 4 communications with counsel and other experts.
5 take place and what time. If you go to the 5 Didn't bring that, or that's not on the CD.
6 third and fourth page, it's called Exhibit A. 6 Preliminary drafts of your report.
7 And that Exhibit A asks you to bring with you 7 Not on the CD.
8 the sixteen items listed on the notice. 8 Copy of any and all documents and
9 Have you seen that Exhibit A before I 9 photographs reviewed and relied upon in this
10 handed it to you this moment? 10 case.
11 A. No, sir. 11 I know you had some photographs and
12 Q. So I trust, then, you have made no 12 you had some data attached to your report, or
13 effort to check your files and pull copies of 13 included on the CD, but were there others that
14 any of these documents. 14 are not -- have you seen what's been produced
15 A. I have not. 15 on the CD?
16 Q. All right. I notice you walked in 16 A. Um -- I don't know what CD you're
17 empty handed, so to speak. You don't have any 17 talking about.
18 boxes or files with you today.? 18 Q. It's kind of difficult to show, but I
19 A. No, sir. 19 guess we could call up the directory and you
20 Q. All right. 20 could look. It would take a while, but I can
21 MS. GREIF: 21 just tell you the only photographs on the CD
22 Can I just say that 22 are also included in your report. So if it's
23 Mr. Fitzgerald has produced everything 23 not included in the report, there isn't any
24 required of him. He just hasn't seen 24 other photographs.
25 that list. But he has produced -- 25 I trust you saw many more photographs
Page 17 Page 19
1 MR. STEVENS: 1 than what's actually attached to your report

2 Well, let's walk through real 2 because there are only about three aerial
3 quick and see. Has he produced a copy 3 photographs.
4 of his engagement letter? I haven't 4 A. Um -- could you repeat the question,
5 seen it. Everything he produced I got 5 please?
6 it on a CD, and I have the CD in my 6 Q. I trust you actually saw or examined
7 computer, we can go through the index 7 more than three photographs in preparing your
8 of it, but I didn't see a copy of an 8 report in this case.
9 engagement letter. 9 A. Um -- I don't -- photographs.
10 MS. GREIF: 10 Q. I'm sorry?
11 Okay. I don't know. 11 A. I'm thinking. I'm thinking. I'm
12 MR. STEVENS: 12 sorry.
13 Okay. So I'll just walk through 13 MS. GREIF:
14 it as we go and see what's on the 14 On Friday the United States did
15 computer. 15 produce -- I don't know if you have
16 MS. GREIF: 16 that -- the United States did produce
17 I meant everything related to his 17 additional documents related to
18 expert report he's produced. That's 18 Mr. Fitzgerald's report on Friday.
19 what I meant. 19 MR. STEVENS:
20 MR. STEVENS: 20 Yeah, I got that. That's the CD
21 Oh, okay. Because I can see it. 21 I got.
22 I have the expert report and the 22 MS. GREIF:
23 charts and diagrams and stuff, but 23 Okay.
24 um -- 2 is his entire file related to 24 MR. STEVENS:
25 the captioned matter. Obviously he 25 But again, on the CD there aren't
Page 18 Page 20
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
1 that many photographs, per se. 1 Q. Okay. But Number 6 you did produce.
2 A. Yeah. I've looked at a lot of 2 That's the only deposition you've given in the
3 paragraphs in the last several months so I'm 3 last five years, right? You identified the
4 just trying to remember. And, um -- I might 4 name of the case in your report.
5 have, but I can't say for sure. 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 6 Q. Now, other than the I'll call it an
7 Q. All right. We'll just leave Number 5 7 animation, but the motion -- the time sequence,
8 as sort of unknown. I can't tell you if 8 the events of the flooding of the St. Bernard
9 everything you looked at is on the CD or not, 9 basin, have you created any other animations or
10 so I won't attempt it. 10 demonstrative evidence other than any of the
11 We have a list of the depositions and 11 slides or images contained in your report?
12 the cases you've been involved in, Number 6. 12 A. No, sir.
13 There's only one, and that's the case against 13 Q. In connection with this case, of
14 the Harris county Flood Control District. 14 course.
15 Incidentally, if you could tell us 15 A. No, sir.
16 briefly, what was that about? 16 Q. All right. So we have that.
17 A. That was about a, um -- channel 17 Your CV is attached. That's a current
18 project that was constructed in the 1990s time 18 copy of your curriculum vitae attached to your
19 period, and we installed a temporary transition 19 report? I think it's Appendix A.
20 control structure in a channel and after it was 20 A. Is that the résumé?
21 built there was some -- we had had a storm and 21 Q. Yes. As Exhibit 2 we'll mark a clean
22 there was flooding upstream, and the plaintiffs 22 copy of your entire report with Appendix A and
23 claim that that transition control structure 23 B, and that way you will have -- you didn't
24 increased their flooding. And that's what the 24 bring a copy of your report with you?
25 trial -- that's what the case was about. 25 (Exhibit 2 was marked for
Page 21 Page 23
1 Q. Okay. 1 identification and is attached hereto.)

2 A. And my deposition was related to that. 2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Did you do any modeling in that 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
4 case? 4 Q. Okay. So let's say -- it's Appendix
5 A. We had consultants, contractors that 5 A, your professional résumé, right?
6 did all the modeling. 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. But you didn't do any modeling. 7 Q. And that's where I got the question
8 A. No. 8 about current assignments. It says, program
9 Q. Do you have a copy of that deposition 9 manager for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
10 in your files? 10 projects.
11 A. I'm not sure. 11 You see under current assignments, the
12 Q. I trust you testified on behalf of the 12 second one?
13 Harris County Flood Control District in that 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 case. 14 Q. All right. And how long have you held
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 the position of program manager for the Corps
16 Q. Were you called as a fact witness or 16 projects?
17 an expert witness? 17 A. Probably, I would say, 1989 when I
18 A. I'm not familiar with that, the 18 became manager of the capital improvements
19 difference, so I don't know. 19 department.
20 Q. All right. Were you called to give 20 Q. Okay.
21 opinions or facts about what you did that led 21 A. Because we were working on several
22 up to the flooding, or allegedly led up to the 22 Corps of Engineers projects at the time.
23 flooding? 23 Q. And looking at your Appendix A to your
24 A. In my -- what I can remember is 24 report, can you verify for us that this is in
25 probably facts. 25 fact a current copy of your curriculum vitae or
Page 22 Page 24
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
1 résumé? 1 Q. Okay. We'll come back to that.

2 A. Yes, sir. 2 Now, the same thing for 11. All the
3 Q. The request asks that you bring 3 maps identifying station markers used for your
4 invoices for professional services. You have 4 hydrographs. Your answer would be the same
5 not brought that with you. 5 there.
6 A. No, sir. 6 A. What was the question, sir?
7 Q. The maps that served as the basis for 7 Q. It's either in the report or
8 your opinions in this case, Item Number 10, 8 referenced in the report.
9 maps identifying all points of measurements by 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 latitude and longitude and identifying 10 Q. Number 12: You haven't produced
11 referenced landmarks for water height and/or 11 copies of the documents cited or referenced in
12 land heights used in connection with your 12 your report, but again it's either cited in the
13 report, have all those maps been produced? 13 report -- right? If you relied on it you cited
14 A. No, sir. 14 it in the report.
15 Q. Okay. Where are those maps? 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 A. The maps that I produced are in the 16 Q. All right. I think 13 is redundant.
17 report. 17 I would concede that. It's a repeat.
18 Q. Okay. When you say the maps you 18 Now, Number 14 ask for you to show or
19 produced, are you saying -- to lawyers, 19 produce copies of maps and photographs you
20 produced means delivered it or gave it up. To 20 relied on to determine land classifications for
21 an engineer, when you say produced, do you mean 21 the vicinity of the MRGO in 1956. Did you make
22 created? 22 reference to any particular source for land
23 A. Yes, sir, prepared. The ones I 23 classifications in creating your report, the
24 prepared are in the report. 24 models attached to your report or the opinions
25 Q. The ones you prepared are in the 25 and conclusions contained in your report?
Page 25 Page 27
1 report. 1 MS. GREIF:

2 A. Yes, sir. 2 Objection. Foundation.
3 Q. And I got them on the CD. 3 MR. STEVENS:
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 That's why I'm asking him.
5 Q. Did you prepare those continuous 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
6 alignment, um -- maps, if you will? Are you 6 Q. Did you rely on any land
7 familiar with that? 7 classifications for any of those things; for
8 A. No, sir. 8 your opinions or conclusions, for the text of
9 Q. I'd have to show you. I don't have it 9 your report or the models attached to your
10 all printed up, but it's a one-dimensional 10 report?
11 diagram that shows stations along the MRGO 11 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
12 from -- all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico 12 Q. I'll ask it in maybe a more simplified
13 from the IHNC. Are you familiar with those? 13 way. Did land classifications matter to you in
14 A. I'm not familiar with the one -- what 14 any way in forming your opinions contained in
15 you're talking about. I'd have to see it. 15 your report?
16 Q. All right. I'll have to call it up on 16 A. No, sir.
17 the disk here and show it to you in a minute. 17 Q. Okay. So I take it, then, if we ask
18 I'll do that. We'll get to it sometime during 18 you to produce copies of the maps and
19 the day. But your position is any maps that 19 photographs you relied on, the answer would be
20 you relied upon for elevations of either land 20 none, you didn't rely on any. As defined or
21 or water height are attached to your report or 21 described in item Number 14 of Exhibit A to the
22 included on the CD that was produced as 22 notice.
23 supplemental information. 23 A. That's correct.
24 A. It was either in the report or 24 Q. All right. Now, do you have any
25 referenced in the report. 25 documentation which indicates the exact times
Page 26 Page 28
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
1 for the calculations you performed for the 1 thirty minutes from, I don't remember, 3:30 in
2 narrative scenario H1 in terms of central 2 the morning until 1:30 in the afternoon, right?
3 daylight time? 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 A. I don't understand the question. 4 Q. Okay. What is the source of the time
5 Q. Yeah. Is it H1 that's throwing you 5 for those images?
6 off? Do you know what H1 is? 6 A. Okay, I understand. The question is
7 A. Um -- 7 the exact times for the calculations? I
8 MS. GREIF: 8 thought you were asking when did I make the
9 Is that the scenario? 9 calculations?
10 A. I'm not sure what H1 is. I'm not sure 10 Q. Oh, no, no, no.
11 what H1 is. 11 A. That's why I was reading this.
12 MR. STEVENS: 12 Q. I assume you made them sometime
13 And I don't know the concordance, 13 between July '07 and the time you gave birth to
14 because we call it Scenario 1, you 14 this report in December of '08?
15 call it Scenario 1, someone else calls 15 A. Thank you for clarifying that.
16 it H1, and I'm not sure if H1 16 Q. You're very welcome. Anything you
17 corresponds to Scenario 1 or Scenario 17 need. So now that we clarified it, can you
18 3. Because they do sort of flip. 18 answer my question?
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 19 A. Um -- yeah. The times came from the,
20 Q. Do you know which one it is? 20 um -- the times came from the surge
21 A. It could be our U.S. Scenario 1. 21 hydrographs, the input to the model, when the
22 Q. Now, let's assume it does. For 22 surge started entering the area.
23 purposes of this question, let's just call it 23 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge the
24 Scenario 1 instead of H1. 24 source of the times for the surge hydrograph,
25 Do you have any documents that 25 where did they come from?
Page 29 Page 31
1 indicate the exact times your calculations were 1 A. We got those from the hydrodynamics
2 performed for the narrative of Scenario 1 in 2 team.
3 terms of central daylight time? 3 Q. So you made assumptions, if you will,
4 MS. GREIF: 4 or you entered into your model whatever
5 Are we just -- what exactly are 5 assumptions Dr. Westerink, Dr. Ebersole who was
6 we talking about, which scenario? Is 6 the third fellow on that team, the
7 it clear which scenario? 7 hydrodynamics team?
8 MR. STEVENS: 8 A. Dr. Resio.
9 We were assuming Scenario 1 as 9 Q. Thank you. So I'm correct in that.
10 described in his report. 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MS. GREIF: 11 Q. You used their assumptions.
12 You're assuming what, for 12 A. I used their surge hydrographs. We
13 purposes of -- 13 used their surge hydrographs.
14 MR. STEVENS: 14 Q. And the time sequence associated with
15 Katrina real run. 15 those hydrographs.
16 MS. GREIF: 16 A. Yes.
17 So we're talking about the 17 Q. All right. Now, did you have any
18 Katrina real run right now. Okay. 18 reference materials -- Number 16 asks you to
19 MR. STEVENS: 19 provide to us all documents evidencing the
20 That's right. That's what he 20 conversion of those hydrographs for surge peaks
21 describes as Scenario 1. 21 from tenths of a day into hours. How did you
22 A. I still don't understand the question. 22 go about doing that? And I guess for purposes
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 23 of this exercise, where is the documentation is
24 Q. What is the source of the time 24 what we're looking for.
25 sequences? Because you did snapshots every 25 A. I believe when we got the surge
Page 30 Page 32
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
1 hydrographs, I believe the times and hours were 1 with other folks, you know, involved in the
2 already on them. I don't think they were in 2 conversations, but I did not consult with them
3 tenths of days. 3 directly.
4 Q. Do you know who converted the tenths 4 Q. All right. And then you also
5 of days into hours? 5 consulted with what you referred to as the
6 A. No. 6 interior drainage team at the Corps of
7 Q. Okay. So the answer to my question 7 Engineers office here, correct?
8 would be, if I asked you can produce the 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 documentation on Number 16, you would say none, 9 Q. Was it Mr. Baas, Dr. Baas? I don't
10 I do not process that. 10 want to leave anybody --
11 A. Based on what I can recall at this 11 A. Mr. Baas.
12 point, that's my answer. 12 Q. Mr. Baas. And I can't remember the
13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, we've already 13 other person's name. There was a second
14 attached as Exhibit 1 the amended notice, so 14 person.
15 we'll lay this here for Mr. Fairbanks. Thank 15 A. Are you referring to the names in the
16 you. If you need a copy, we've got more 16 report?
17 floating around. 17 Q. Yeah.
18 I've at attached your report as 18 A. That would be Mr. Jeff Harris.
19 Exhibit Number 2. Other than that report dated 19 Q. Harris. Thank you. Now, one at time.
20 December 18, 2008, have you generated any other 20 Dr. Ebersole. When did you first consult with
21 reports in this case? 21 him?
22 A. No, sir. 22 MS. GREIF:
23 Q. Okay. The topic of your report is 23 Objection. Vague.
24 interior flooding analysis, St. Bernard Parish 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
25 and Lower Ninth Ward, Orleans Parish; correct? 25 Q. When did you first consult with him?
Page 33 Page 35
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 MS. GREIF:

2 Q. All right. And what exactly were you 2 With regard to ever? Or with
3 asked to explore or evaluate? 3 regard to --
4 A. I was asked to evaluate the flooding 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
5 inside the St. Bernard polder with some 5 Q. Obviously, with regard to preparation
6 different conditions or different scenarios 6 of your report and the opinions and conclusions
7 that were provided. 7 you ultimately made in this case.
8 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to go through 8 A. It would have been sometime after
9 it, you know, one opinion at a time, one 9 July, August, 2007. I don't know the first
10 assumption it a time, and every once in a while 10 time we discussed this. I don't know.
11 I'll stop and ask you to explain something 11 Q. Have you met face to face with him?
12 because I get a little lost in some of this 12 A. Yes, sir, I have.
13 engineering stuff. This is my first foray into 13 Q. All right. And the same thing applies
14 hydrodynamics. So bear with me and we'll get 14 to Resio, Dr. Resio and Dr. Westerink. Did you
15 through this. 15 meet face to face with them?
16 In preparation of this report, and in 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 conducting the analysis of the flooding inside 17 Q. Did they review preliminary drafts of
18 the St. Bernard basin, did you consult directly 18 your report?
19 with other experts in this case? 19 A. No, sir.
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. Did you review preliminary
21 Q. And with whom did you consult? 21 drafts of their reports?
22 A. I consulted with Bruce Ebersole, Don 22 A. No, sir.
23 Resio, Joannes Westerink. 23 Q. Okay. You say you started work in
24 Q. Anyone else? 24 approximately July, '07. We understand it
25 A. There were conversations of the team 25 could be August, but July, or late summer '07.
Page 34 Page 36
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
1 Did you confer with Drs. Ebersole, 1 breaching occurred and how to put that into the
2 Resio and Westerink about that time? 2 interior drainage model, how to model that.
3 A. Then or sometime afterwards. I don't 3 And he also provided some input into the surge
4 know exactly when. 4 hydrographs. He was working with Dr. Westerink
5 Q. How much time afterwards? 5 and also with us on the surge hydrographs.
6 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Okay. And so I take it, then, these
7 Q. In the year '07? 7 three gentlemen, Westerink, Resio and Ebersole,
8 A. Um -- could be, but I don't remember. 8 are primary contributors to your model. Or the
9 Q. Another way, during the first four or 9 data that they provided to you is the primary
10 five months of your engagement in this case? 10 basis for your model.
11 A. Most likely. 11 A. Yes, sir, they provided the input to
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Tell me what you 12 the model. Yes, they provided input --
13 got from Drs. Ebersole, Resio and Westerink 13 information to go into the model, that's
14 that assisted you in forming your opinions in 14 correct.
15 this case. Take them one at a time. 15 Q. And engineers and lawyers, we're going
16 A. Okay. Dr. Westerink, he was part of 16 to have to get something clear. When you say
17 the hydrodynamics team that developed the surge 17 input into the model, that could be anything,
18 hydrographs for input into the interior 18 they could just come by and say, you're doing a
19 drainage model, and so we followed along as 19 good job, pat you on the back and give you some
20 they produced or did those analysis. We 20 spiritual advice, that would be some input in a
21 listened in just to see how things were going. 21 way. But when an engineer says input, you mean
22 And then Dr. Resio, he did the wave 22 data. Correct?
23 overtopping analysis and provided that as input 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 into the interior drainage model, for us to put 24 Q. Okay. And the data that they provided
25 into the interior drainage model. 25 to you is what your computer model then uses to
Page 37 Page 39
1 And then Mr. Ebersole, he provided 1 calculate ultimately water levels in the
2 guidance on -- 2 St. Bernard basin.
3 Q. You're backing up to Ebersole or going 3 A. Um -- could you repeat it, please?
4 forward to Westerink? 4 Q. Sure. The input data that they give
5 A. Bruce Ebersole. 5 to you is what you then input into your model
6 Q. Okay. Back to Ebersole. All right. 6 the computer then uses to calculate the timing
7 What else did he do? 7 of the water levels, when they increased, and
8 A. Well, this is the first time I started 8 ultimately the water levels themselves within
9 talking about, to answer your question -- 9 the St. Bernard basin.
10 Q. Well, maybe I misheard you. I thought 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 you said Ebersole provided the hydrodynamics 11 Q. Which is the title of your paper or
12 team surge hydrographs for input into your 12 your report in this case, Interior Flooding
13 model. 13 Analysis. That is the core data which forms
14 MS. GREIF: 14 the basis of your results.
15 That was Westerink. 15 A. It's some of the data, yes.
16 MR. STEVENS: 16 Q. Okay. Now, we split it again, some of
17 So he misspoke or I miswrote. 17 the data. And that's what I'm trying to
18 MS. GREIF: 18 determine.
19 No, he said Westerink. 19 Is the data that you obtained from
20 MR. STEVENS: 20 Drs. Westerink, Resio and Ebersole
21 Okay. My bad. 21 insignificant or significant data in terms of
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 22 the results of your model?
23 Q. So then tell me what Ebersole did. 23 A. It's significant.
24 A. Consulted with Mr. Ebersole on the 24 Q. So if the data, the old expression in
25 breaching, trying to estimate when the 25 Opelousas is -- actually, it's garbage in,
Page 38 Page 40
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
1 garbage out. That's kind of tough. But, you 1 gets there? Is that, in layman's terms, a
2 know, the quality of the result depends upon 2 simplistic way of looking at it --
3 the quality of the inputted data in computer 3 A. Yes.
4 modeling circles. Correct? 4 Q. -- or separating the two?
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 And in general, water resources, can
6 Q. All right. And to the extent that 6 you describe what that's all about?
7 their data is wrong, it would be reflected in 7 A. That's more to do with the, all the
8 your computer model. 8 water-related, um -- areas. I'm not an expert
9 A. Yes, I suppose so. 9 in all those, but it's a general term looking
10 Q. Okay. Fair enough. 10 at water resources as a system or a process,
11 Now, other than your work for Harris 11 um -- and that's how I'm using the term water
12 County Flood Control District and the work you 12 resources.
13 do with the Corps of Engineers projects, are 13 Q. And then stage hydrographs versus
14 you a principal in any other business 14 surge hydrographs. And I'm doing this so that
15 enterprise? 15 when we start talking later we'll kind of have
16 A. No, sir. 16 our definitions straight. But can you tell me
17 Q. Are you an investor in any other 17 the different between a stage hydrograph and a
18 business enterprise? I don't need to know all 18 surge hydrograph?
19 your personal business, you're not running for 19 A. Yes. For this analysis, the stage
20 public office, but just in general terms do you 20 hydrograph is used to refer to the water level
21 own any other businesses? 21 within the basin itself, or polder itself,
22 A. No, sir. 22 whichever term you like to use.
23 Q. What is your area of expertise? 23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. Primarily hydraulics, and some 24 A. The stage rising and falling within
25 hydrology and general water resources. 25 the polder or basin. The surge hydrograph
Page 41 Page 43
1 Q. You were kind and smart to attach a 1 refers to the rising and falling water outside
2 glossary to your report. And that's always 2 the basin, outside the levees.
3 helpful because then, with engineers in 3 Q. Okay.
4 particular, if you define terms then you know 4 A. Surge meaning -- referring to the
5 that's the definition we're working with. On 5 storm surge.
6 Page 31 of your report you give definitions for 6 Q. Correct. All right. I like basin
7 what I guess you thought would be key terms or 7 better than polder --
8 key, um -- concepts. You do not define 8 A. Okay.
9 hydraulics versus hydrology. I guess that's 9 Q. -- or bowl. But basin is good enough.
10 kind of a given that people would know that. 10 I live in the Atchafalaya Basin so I kind of
11 But if you don't mind, would you help me 11 understand that kind of stuff. Now, when you
12 understand the difference between hydraulics 12 say breach versus overtopping, again I want to
13 and hydrology? 13 make sure we get our terminology correct,
14 A. Yes, sir. Hydrology is the study of 14 breach is loss of levee crest or top of a
15 the flow of water after the rainfall hits the 15 floodwall elevation during a storm event,
16 ground and how it moves across the land and 16 right? That's not any overtopping, it has to
17 ends up flowing into some kind of conveyance 17 be overtopping caused by loss of elevation of
18 system, whether it be a channel or a pipe or 18 what was there before, correct?
19 something like that. Once the water gets to 19 A. Well, the breaches, like I defined
20 the pipe or the channel and starts flowing in a 20 here, it's when the crest loses elevation or
21 larger mass, that's what we refer to as 21 the top of floodwall elevation. So that is a
22 hydraulics. So they're related. They're 22 breach.
23 interrelated. 23 Q. Okay. Either it lays down or it cuts
24 Q. Okay. So hydrology is how it got 24 away or it washes away, but it loses some crest
25 there, and hydraulics is what it does after it 25 elevation, right? That's a breach.
Page 42 Page 44
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 yours in establishing the parameters for your

2 Q. In any form. It could be an inch or a 2 model or in exercising or executing the model
3 hundred feet or whatever, it doesn't really 3 itself?
4 matter what the dimension is, it's a loss of 4 A. Um --
5 elevation, correct? 5 MS. GREIF:
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 Object. It's compound.
7 Q. All right. And then overtopping is 7 MR. STEVENS:
8 just water flowing over a crest that doesn't 8 Okay. I'll try to do better.
9 lose elevation, it remains fixed or holds 9 Let's see.
10 steady. Fair enough? 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Can I be safe in assuming that in
12 Q. Now, there's overtopping, then there's 12 terms of the opinions and conclusions you
13 wave overtopping, and then there's surge 13 reached in this case, wave setup was not a
14 overtopping, correct? 14 primary consideration?
15 A. Those terms are used, yes. 15 A. Um -- for my opinions, that is
16 Q. Now, overtopping is just a general 16 correct.
17 description of water that flows over a levee or 17 Q. Okay. You indicated that
18 flood control structure, right? It simply got 18 hydraulics -- no, I'm sorry. It was stage and
19 higher than the crest of the structure? 19 surge overtopping. Stage is the water level in
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 the basin, surge is what went on outside the
21 Q. Okay. Wave overtopping versus surge 21 basin. Right?
22 overtopping. I'll let you do the talking now. 22 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
23 Tell us the difference between those two. 23 Q. Yeah. I thought I wrote it down when
24 A. In this context, the surge overtopping 24 you said the difference between stage
25 is the water from -- that goes over the levee 25 hydrographs and surge hydrographs. I combined
Page 45 Page 47
1 from the surge only, which is, you know, the 1 two terms. Okay? The surge hydrograph, the
2 rising surge going over. On top of the surge 2 things that went on outside the levee, you
3 there's waves, and that is called the wave 3 didn't concern yourself with that.
4 overtopping. 4 A. Could you, um --
5 Q. Okay. So it's sort of a combination. 5 Q. Well, let me ask you another one.
6 There's surge overtopping, and then the waves 6 Did you concern yourself with stage
7 come on top of the surge and that's an 7 hydrographs; was that a substantial factor in
8 additional level of water or layer of water 8 your --
9 above the surge. 9 A. Right. I did not concern myself, we
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 took the information and put it in the model,
11 Q. Okay. And then wave setup. 11 so. Right, I did not concern myself with that.
12 Describe -- give us your description of wave 12 Q. Right. You just adopted what other
13 setup. 13 folks had done.
14 A. I'm not -- my expertise is not in this 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 field. 15 Q. All right. And looking at the model
16 Q. Okay. 16 that we're going to look at here in a minute,
17 A. So, um -- I really don't know it very 17 it appears that you really get involved once
18 well at all. It's not my area of expertise. 18 the water comes over the MRGO levee and starts
19 Q. Okay. 19 filling up the central wetlands unit or the
20 A. So what I wrote there is the best that 20 area between MRGO levee and the 40 arpent
21 I could describe it in my words. 21 levee.
22 Q. So can I then be safe in assuming that 22 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
23 in terms of the opinions and conclusions you 23 Q. Yeah. When does your analysis begin
24 reached in this case, wave setup was not a 24 is what I'm asking?
25 primary factor or a primary consideration of 25 A. It begins when it gets -- when it gets
Page 46 Page 48
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
1 over the levee. 1 A. It's primarily for the design of flood

2 Q. Over the MRGO levee. 2 damage reduction facilities within Harris
3 A. Any of the levees. 3 County open channels and detention basins used
4 Q. Okay. The first levee it went over 4 for land development, draining land development
5 was the MRGO levee. 5 and roadways.
6 A. There are several levees. 6 Q. Is that a public document?
7 Q. Okay. We'll get to it in a second 7 A. Um -- yes.
8 when we go through the model. I'll have you 8 Q. The 1984 and 2004?
9 describe it for me. But in a general sense, 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 you're not concerned with what went on outside 10 Q. If I wanted to get a copy of your
11 the levees, your concern begins when it starts 11 design manual, how would I go about getting
12 coming over any levee. 12 one?
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 A. You could get one on our website.
14 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for 14 Q. What is the website?
15 walking through that with me. That's going to 15 A. Hcfcd.org.
16 help a lot down the road. We won't have to do 16 Q. Okay. And then it's under
17 all that describing. 17 publications?
18 All right. You published, or you 18 A. Um -- I don't recall where it is in
19 produced -- publications I wanted to ask you 19 there, but you'll find it.
20 about. Can you tell us what publications 20 Q. The whole manual is in it, your design
21 you've been involved with, articles you've 21 manual from '84, as amended in '04.
22 written? 22 A. Yes. The one that our district
23 A. The two listed in my résumé, one was 23 produced is on that site.
24 back in 1981 with Dr. Holley. And the other 24 Q. All right. Is there anything in that
25 one was with two professors from the University 25 manual that you think is particularly relevant
Page 49 Page 51
1 of Houston in 1996. 1 to the work you did in this case or the

2 Q. Now, the first one is entitled "Jet 2 opinions you offer in this case?
3 Injections for Optimum Mixing in Pipe Flow." 3 A. Well, there's basic hydraulic
4 Can you tell us whether or not that 4 principles that are in this manual that related
5 publication is in any way relevant here? 5 to almost all hydraulic analysis, very
6 A. No. No, sir. 6 fundamental, so there is a relationship.
7 Q. How about the next one, "Hydrodynamic 7 Q. Are all of the opinions that you
8 Flow Model at the Confluence of Two Streams?" 8 intend to offer at the trial of this case
9 Any particular relevance? 9 contained in your report dated December 18th,
10 A. No, no direct relevance, no. 10 2008?
11 Q. All right. And then you also 11 A. I have no thoughts or discussions
12 published, and I don't know where I red this -- 12 about the trial. So.
13 you wrote the design manual, in 1984, which 13 Q. Do you have any other opinions as we
14 was, or -- yeah, '84, and it was later amended 14 sit, than those expressed in this report dated
15 in 2004, and it's not on this part of your -- 15 December 18th, 2008?
16 it's not in Appendix A, I don't remember where 16 A. No, sir.
17 I got that. Where did you reference that? It 17 MS. GREIF:
18 must have been up front? You wrote a design 18 Objection.
19 manual for the Harris County Flood Control 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
20 District? 20 Q. Have you done any additional work on
21 A. Yes, sir. I was part of that effort 21 this case since you issued this report
22 and actually lead that effort. I don't do it 22 December 18th, 2008?
23 by myself, but I lead that effort. 23 A. Not related to the report, no.
24 Q. And it is a design manual for what? 24 Q. Not related to the court?
25 Design of what? 25 A. To the report. I'm sorry.
Page 50 Page 52
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
1 Q. To the report. You've done other 1 A. Professor?

2 work? In what context? 2 Q. And when did you -- you did that
3 A. No other work, just reading this and 3 recently, I trust. His deposition was last
4 reading some of the other reports in preparing 4 week. Or was it his first depo? Because he
5 for this deposition. 5 gave an earlier depo. Do you know?
6 Q. All right. So what did you do to 6 A. No, it was from last week. Um -- must
7 prepare for this deposition? 7 have been the day before yesterday or two days
8 A. Read some of the other reports and 8 ago.
9 reread this just to understand, try to 9 Q. And was there anything in Professor
10 remember. 10 Vrijling 's deposition that in any way changes
11 Q. Close is good enough for lawyer work, 11 or affects your opinions in this case?
12 and engineering has got to be a little more 12 A. No, sir.
13 precise, but somewhere in the middle of that is 13 Q. All right. Anything in Professor
14 what we need to talk about today. So let me 14 Vrijling 's deposition that you found to be
15 just ask you, what reports did you read? 15 incorrect?
16 A. I read my report, Dr. Ebersole 's, 16 A. I did not read it from that
17 Dr. Westerink 's, Dr. Resio 's, um -- I read 17 standpoint.
18 parts of the reports, not every page, because 18 Q. Or a better way to ask it, do you
19 it's not my area of expertise, of each one of 19 dispute or disagree with anything you read in
20 those reports. And also, besides those, Steve 20 Dr. Vrijling 's deposition -- I'm sorry.
21 DeLoach, I believe that's his name, and, um -- 21 Professor Vrijling?
22 and I believe that was it. 22 A. Um -- from what I read it was not in
23 Q. Okay. And when did you read these 23 my area of expertise.
24 reports? 24 Q. Okay. Steve DeLoach. What did you
25 A. In the last few weeks. 25 get from his report?
Page 53 Page 55
1 Q. Any particular sections of Ebersole 1 A. He was the person that was on the
2 that you read? 2 expert team that was looking at the, um --
3 A. No. 3 datums and adjustments for the topographic
4 Q. Westerink? Anything in particular? 4 information, and I just skimmed it for
5 A. No. 5 information.
6 Q. Resio? 6 Q. And whatever datums and adjustments he
7 A. No. 7 made in this report are the same things you
8 Q. Have you been asked to perform any 8 adopted in crafting your model in this case.
9 additional analysis in this case other than 9 Better question: Did you use
10 what you've already done? 10 Mr. DeLoach 's datums and adjustments as inputs
11 A. No, sir. 11 into your model?
12 Q. Good. Have you attended any 12 A. No, sir.
13 depositions like we have here, all this 13 Q. Okay. Was there a reason you didn't?
14 Internet deposition stuff; have you sat in long 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 distance from your office or anybody else 's 15 Q. And what is that?
16 office and observed the deposition? 16 A. We were using the datum and
17 A. Associated with this case? 17 adjustments that we had developed for the model
18 Q. Yes. 18 for the IPET study. We used that datum and
19 A. No, sir. 19 adjustment.
20 Q. Okay. Have you read any deposition 20 Q. So you didn't use DeLoach 's datum.
21 transcripts taken in this case? 21 A. He refers to the IPET datum that was
22 A. I skimmed one. 22 developed then. He refers to that. But I
23 Q. Okay. Whose depo was that? 23 don't pretend to understand and know all that
24 A. Um -- Mr. Vrijling. 24 he did in his expert area. I'm not in that
25 Q. Professor Vrijling? 25 area.
Page 54 Page 56
14 (Pages 53 to 56)
1 Q. We'll come back to that in a minute. 1 you conclude, this is the result of your
2 When we do the levee profiles I'll ask you some 2 modeling. These he's images.
3 more about that. 3 A. This is one -- yes, one presentation
4 Now, is it fair to say sort of in a 4 of the results, yes.
5 nutshell -- because I'm all about nutshells and 5 Q. And it's a presentation of the Katrina
6 basins and bowls, I like to put everything in a 6 real run. This is actually what happened on
7 box and then we can take it apart. But to sort 7 the morning of August 29, 2005.
8 of lump it altogether, does the St. Bernard 8 A. What was the question?
9 flood model, the one that I got on a CD, an 9 Q. This is a representation of the
10 audiovisual time lapse of events, does that 10 Katrina real run, this is actually what
11 flood model represent the time sequencing of 11 happened on the morning of August 29, 2005.
12 your opinions about water levels in St. Bernard 12 A. Could you put that in the form of a
13 and the Lower Ninth at various times on the 13 question?
14 date of the hurricane? 14 Q. Am I correct that this is a
15 MS. GREIF: 15 representation of the Katrina real run, that,
16 Objection. Vague. 16 is, what happened on the morning of August 29,
17 A. I don't know which video that you're 17 2005?
18 referring do. 18 A. Yes, it's a representation of our
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 19 modeling of what happened on that day.
20 Q. I only got one, and I'll hand you what 20 Q. All right. And we know models are
21 we will mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number -- 21 models, they're not 100 percent accurate,
22 what are we on, 3? 22 correct?
23 MS. GREIF: 23 A. Correct.
24 Yes. 24 Q. All right. Now, incidentally, whoever
25 (Exhibit 3 was marked for 25 helped you put this together did the August 29,
Page 57 Page 59
1 identification and is attached hereto.) 1 2008. You would concede that's an error.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 2 That's a mistake.
3 Q. I printed hard copies of, you gave it 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 to us in 30-minute intervals. Um -- if you 4 Q. Time moves fast enough and I'm old
5 want to verify, these are just enlargements of 5 enough. August 29, 2008 is not here yet.
6 the images contained in your report. 6 We're at January 29th today. Oh, August 29,
7 MS. GREIF: 7 '08 happened already. Oh, well. Then let's go
8 Page 18? Starting on Page 18? 8 back to that date. I'll back up six months.
9 MR. STEVENS: 9 I'll take the time back. But it's supposed to
10 18 and 19, yeah. 10 be 2005. For our purposes today we'll
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 11 understand that.
12 Q. Figures 8A as in alpha through J as in 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 John in your report. They should match 13 Q. Okay. Is that the correct date? I
14 exactly. But you start at 3:30, 4:30, 5:00, et 14 guess I better ask you a better question.
15 cetera, all the way until 1:30 p.m. Or until 15 Because I've been assuming that that date
16 1:00 p.m. It end at 1300. And then the CD I 16 hadn't happened yet. Is that a typo or is that
17 got shows this, you know, in sequence. 17 actually what you modeled for that day?
18 So is it fair to say that this model 18 A. That's a typo.
19 represented -- is it a representation of the 19 Q. Okay. It should be 2005. All right.
20 time sequencing in your opinions of the way the 20 I'm going to fix it on mine.
21 water crossed the central wetland unit and came 21 And in your report, and I can go to
22 into St. Bernard Parish? 22 the executive summary with you, it says you
23 A. Um -- yes, generally speaking. 23 were analyzing what happened at landfall.
24 Q. And again, we'll get to the details, 24 Let's look at that, see if we can
25 but generally speaking that is ultimately what 25 get -- on Page 4: We ran the following
Page 58 Page 60
15 (Pages 57 to 60)
1 scenarios to determine maximum water surface 1 audiovisual model and have you sort of walk
2 elevations. First one says, MRGO and marsh 2 through it with us. And we can freeze frame it
3 condition as they existed in 2005 at Hurricane 3 because I have them all printed. Each of the
4 Katrina landfall, a/k/a U.S. Scenario 1, 4 frames on your model is printed and attached to
5 Plaintiffs' Scenario 1. Right? 5 this deposition as Exhibit Number 3. It would
6 A. Yes, that's what it says. 6 be nice if we could have the camera see what
7 Q. What is your definition of landfall? 7 we're doing, if I turn it this way, but I don't
8 A. I think it's a general term to, um -- 8 know if the witness will be able to see it.
9 that means when Katrina came across this 9 Maybe you could come stand behind me just for a
10 area -- 10 minute. I don't know how we do that.
11 Q. Okay. 11 Okay. I'm going to play -- and you
12 A. -- on that day. 12 can take that apart if you pull that clip
13 Q. Now, at this moment in time, or these 13 off -- at 3:30 -- incidentally, let me ask you
14 moments in time, because this analysis that we 14 a quick question. Up in the right sort of
15 just talked about, and I guess Fitzgerald 3 is 15 right corner of all these where the date
16 the exhibit to the deposition, but in your 16 August 29, 2008 is written, it's kind of a
17 report their images or Figures 8A as in alpha 17 yellow hatched area, and I noticed in the
18 through F as in Frank -- or, no, I'm sorry, J 18 table, on the little legend, it says light blue
19 as in John; 8A through J. And they're every 19 is less than 1 foot, dark blue is greater than
20 thirty minutes from 3:00 in the morning until 20 10-foot water depth, but at the very bottom the
21 1:00 in the afternoon. Did landfall take all 21 yellow hatch says terrain data not available.
22 that time? 22 Okay? And what I'm asking you is, terrain data
23 A. Um -- I don't -- this was a general 23 not available, does that apply only to the
24 term just to express this time frame, this time 24 yellow hatched square or does it apply to the
25 period. 25 whole area where that thing sort of points?
Page 61 Page 63
1 Q. Thank you. That's important because 1 Because the lower left corner of it appears to
2 lawyers and engineers, sometimes you talk 2 point to the center of the central wetlands
3 precise and sometimes you're talking general. 3 unit.
4 So you're saying generally speaking, as the 4 A. Would you show me?
5 storm came ashore, because I'm sure there's 5 Q. Yeah. You see this yellow square
6 some meteorologist somewhere who would define 6 here, the top right corner? And it sort of
7 landfall in a precise way, that landfall is the 7 points, if you will, if you use the lower left
8 moment when the eye is exactly at the center of 8 corner of that as a pointer, it points to the
9 such and such and so and so. But that's not 9 entire central wetlands unit, the area between
10 what you're referring to by landfall. 10 the MRGO levee and the 40 arpent levee. I call
11 A. It's a general time frame. 11 that the CWU, the Central Wetlands Unit. Is
12 Q. During the coming ashore. Okay. 12 that -- can we agree to call it that?
13 You don't express any opinions about 13 A. Central Wetlands Unit? Is that what
14 where the eye of the storm was at the moment of 14 you said?
15 any of these snapshots that we marked as 15 Q. Yeah. Do you call it something else?
16 Exhibit 3. True? 16 A. That's fine.
17 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. Does that yellow hatched area
18 Q. And you don't express any opinions 18 where it says terrain data not available in the
19 about the duration of landfall, that event if 19 legend, does that apply to this whole area or
20 it is technically defined someplace else. 20 only to that yellow square that's hatched?
21 A. That's correct. 21 A. From what I understand, it's only the
22 Q. That's correct. All right. Good. 22 area that's hatched.
23 (Off the record.) 23 Q. All right. And so it looks like a
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 24 block or a section that you had no data for.
25 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, I'd like to play your 25 Right?
Page 62 Page 64
16 (Pages 61 to 64)
1 A. Yes, the people who put this together, 1 I've outlined in red, that would be the only
2 the terrain information, back in IPET, that was 2 portion of the central wetlands unit that there
3 not available at the time. 3 would be no terrain data available for?
4 Q. All right. So when it says terrain 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 data not available, what does that mean? 5 Q. Okay. So what you're saying is, in a
6 A. Um -- the way I interpret that? 6 sense, whatever terrain data they had for
7 Q. Uh-huh. 7 everything else, they just sort of smoothed it
8 A. It means that whatever source of 8 over or averaged it for that same area?
9 information -- sources of information they were 9 A. I'm not sure how they did it, but
10 using to get the data, the terrain data, this 10 there was some approximation.
11 was not available. And I don't know why. 11 Q. Well, for the record, let me attach as
12 Q. And terrain data, what is that? What 12 the 3:30 a.m. frame -- I'm going to make a red
13 does that include? 13 outline around that same triangle that you say
14 A. That would include the topography of 14 is the area within your model for which there
15 the land. 15 was no terrain data available. Right?
16 Q. Uh-huh. So what the elevation of it 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 is, whether there was a ridge there, whether it 17 Q. Okay. So I'm going to put TDNA. I
18 was grass or trees or shrubs, all that sort of 18 wrote it inside the little red square, terrain
19 information is generally referred to as terrain 19 data not available, which is taken from your
20 data, correct? 20 thing. Bear with me, I'm going to have to do
21 A. No, sir, not all that. 21 that every now and then. Now, I want to play
22 Q. All right. Well, then, you're the 22 the video -- audio video. There's no audio on
23 engineer, I'm just guessing. You tell me what 23 it.
24 is included in terrain data. 24 MS. GREIF:
25 A. It would be the representation of the 25 It's an animation. We'll call it
Page 65 Page 67
1 elevations of the land. 1 an animation?

2 Q. Okay. And does it also include the 2 A. Animation.
3 land classification, swamp versus marsh versus 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
4 forest versus something else? 4 Q. Animation. That will be fine with me.
5 A. From my understanding, no. 5 So I'm going to start it, and then frame
6 Q. Okay. Now, in terms of how, if at 6 Number 1 is 3:30 a.m. Okay? At 3:30 a.m.,
7 all, the absence of terrain data for that 7 where is the hurricane?
8 section affects your model, can you tell us if 8 A. I don't know.
9 it had any impact whatsoever? 9 Q. What is -- in terms of the hurricane
10 A. There was -- for the part that's 10 storm surge, what is the status of the storm
11 inside levee, in the central wetlands -- is 11 surge at that point?
12 that what we say we were going to call it? 12 A. Um -- I can't tell from this exhibit.
13 There was -- I understand the people who put 13 Q. All right. At 3:30 a.m., has the rain
14 this model together in IPET, that they made 14 begun to fall in the St. Bernard basin area, or
15 some estimation of the topography in that area. 15 the central wetlands unit?
16 Q. Okay. So whatever estimations the 16 A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
17 folks who did IPET report made for that 17 Q. Okay. In the central wetlands unit
18 section, you made the same, correct? 18 shown on the 3:30 a.m. time image, there is
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 some blue. There's some very light blew and a
20 Q. I'm going to mark on my -- this is the 20 little bit of medium blue.
21 official exhibit so let me give it back to you. 21 Am I fair in assessing that there's
22 I'm not going to mark on it yet until we get 22 some less than 1 foot water areas and a little
23 our terms straight, but am I correct that as 23 bit of area that's 1 to 2 feet in depth as of
24 relates to the central wetlands unit only what 24 3:30 a.m.?
25 I would say this triangle, that portion that 25 A. Yes, sir. That's a good assumption.
Page 66 Page 68
17 (Pages 65 to 68)
1 Q. Okay. And the source of that water, 1 A. Um -- a little bit more water in the
2 can you tell us -- and I don't know if I'm 2 area between the Mississippi River and the 40
3 using the right term, but would there be 3 arpent levee.
4 indigenous water, that is, water that would be 4 Q. Okay. You're seeing some water in the
5 there whether it was raining or not? 5 upper section of the Lower Ninth Ward? Is that
6 A. I would think there would be, yes. 6 what you're referring to?
7 Q. Or like we talk native ducks, you 7 A. Yes, sir. In the northern part, yes,
8 know, they don't migrate, they stay here, is 8 sir.
9 that native water? You're a hydrologist. What 9 Q. All right. And we have a red pen
10 would you refer to that water as that stays 10 here, so I'm going to ask you to go ahead and
11 there all the time? 11 circle on the 4:00 a.m. time frame what you're
12 A. I just say existing. 12 talking about. And I want you to tell me in
13 Q. Existing water. 13 your opinion is that water there because of
14 A. It's an existing condition. 14 rainfall or is there some overtopping of the 40
15 Q. Shucks, I thought I'd coin a phrase. 15 arpent levee at that point?
16 Me and engineers are never going to get 16 MS. GREIF:
17 anywhere. 17 Objection.
18 All right. The existing water that 18 A. Would you repeat the question, please?
19 was there before the rainfall, at this point 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
20 there is one to two feet of water throughout 20 Q. I'll ask it in a better way, maybe
21 the central wetlands unit at 3:30 a.m. on 21 just let you just answer it.
22 August 29th, 2005. Correct? 22 What is the source of the water in
23 A. That's what our map shows here, yes, 23 that portion of the Lower Ninth Ward?
24 sir. 24 A. Um -- based on the records, I would
25 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that 25 say it would be the rainfall.
Page 69 Page 71
1 this map is designed to show other than the 1 Q. Okay. And if you would, circle the
2 depth of water? 2 area you're referring to in red.
3 A. No, just, you know, the approximate 3 A. (Witness complies.)
4 depth of water at the different locations 4 Q. Okay. Now let's go to 4:30. All
5 within the St. Bernard basin. 5 right. That's 4:30. On the 4:30 slide or
6 Q. Okay. Now, question: It says in the 6 image, there's more water in the upper section
7 table -- flood depth is the top phrase there. 7 of the Lower Ninth Ward, correct?
8 Flood depths. Flooding is flooding, just it's 8 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
9 water, it doesn't necessarily have to be 9 Q. And again, can you tell us what is the
10 hurricane-related flooding or storm-related 10 source of that water?
11 flooding. Is that a fair statement? 11 A. I'm going to refer back to the report.
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. By all means. And if you refer to any
13 Q. Again, I just want to get our terms 13 particular figure or table, just let us know
14 straight. Flood, to the layperson, means some 14 what it is so we know what you're talking
15 significant weather event, there's a flood. To 15 about.
16 a hydrologist flooding just means it's wet or 16 A. The source of that water in the
17 dry. Flooded with water. 17 northern part of the Lower Ninth Ward would be
18 A. In this context, that's correct. 18 rainfall and possibly some initial flow in from
19 Q. All right. Very good. 19 the, um -- Inner Harbor Navigation Canal levee.
20 All right. Let's move forward to the 20 Q. And how is it getting in from the
21 4:00 a.m. -- I skipped to 4:30. Sorry about 21 Inner Harbor Navigation Canal?
22 that. Let me back up. All right. There's the 22 A. Um -- I'm looking at Figure 9A in the
23 4:00 a.m. image. Water is about the same? 23 report. It's one of the figures I'm looking
24 Describe for us, has anything changed in that 24 at.
25 half hour? 25 Q. On Page?
Page 70 Page 72
18 (Pages 69 to 72)
1 A. On Page 22. 1 Q. Okay. And is it substantially more

2 Q. Okay. 2 water than there was at 4:30?
3 A. And based on the graph here, and best 3 MS. GREIF:
4 recollection of the timing of the north IHNC 4 Objection. Vague.
5 breach as labeled on Figure 9A -- 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
6 Q. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Can you tell us in terms of water
7 A. -- I believe that water is starting to 7 depth what the difference in water depth is
8 enter from the breach. 8 between 4:30 and 5:00 a.m. in the northern
9 Q. And what is your opinion as to what 9 portion of the Lower Ninth Ward?
10 time the north breach occurred in the IHNC? 10 A. From this representation it looks
11 A. To be accurate, I'm going to look in 11 several feet deeper.
12 the report, but I believe I have that in the 12 Q. Okay.
13 report so I'm going to look here. 13 A. You can't tell the exact depths on
14 Page 17 of my report, second 14 this, it's just a representation.
15 paragraph, I say, filling begins at 3:50 a.m. 15 Q. And again, several feet deeper is four
16 when the north breach near Florida Avenue 16 feet, six feet? How much deeper?
17 occurs. 17 A. Well, it is spreading out, so some
18 Q. All right. So when we're looking at 18 areas are getting water for the first time,
19 this slide, at 4:30a.m., the breach has already 19 some are still less than one foot as it's
20 been going on for about forty minutes, right? 20 flowing through the Lower Ninth.
21 That water we're seeing in the northern section 21 Q. Okay.
22 of the Lower Ninth Ward in your opinion is 22 A. Other areas, it is getting deeper.
23 coming from the north breach, correct? 23 Just based on the colors here, I would say
24 A. Yes, sir, that and rainfall. 24 either 2 to 4 feet deep or 4 to 6 feet deep.
25 Q. And rainfall. And is there any 25 Q. Okay. And I really wish you could see
Page 73 Page 75
1 overtopping at that point of the levee? And I 1 this, because to me -- let's do that. I'm
2 better say the 40 arpent levee. I'm sorry. 2 going to come back to those individual slides
3 yeah, that's the 40 Arpent levee. 3 in a second. I am going to turn the computer
4 A. My best recollection of the modeling 4 so you can see it. I'll play it for you, and
5 was that it was not coming over the 40 arpent 5 then I'll turn it for the camera and play it
6 levee at that time. 6 for the camera.
7 Q. Okay. We'll go forward to 5:00 a.m., 7 Can you see that? All right. We'll
8 the next slide. All right? Now, did you 8 start from the beginning.
9 circle in red for me on the 4:30 slide. If you 9 A. Let me get a little bit closer, get my
10 would, you can put north breach, if that's 10 glasses adjusted.
11 where it's coming from, draw a little arrow to 11 Q. And if I need to tilt the screen a
12 it. 12 different way, let me know, too. Can you see
13 A. You want me to do that north breach? 13 it now?
14 Q. Yeah. Draw an arrow to where the 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 north breach is, and you can put NB. We'll 15 Q. Okay. Start you at 3:30, and it's
16 know what that means. 16 every thirty minutes until 1:00 p.m. Correct?
17 A. It's going to be approximate. 17 On August 29th. I assume you've seen this more
18 Somewhere up here. 18 than a few times.
19 Q. Okay. All right. Now, the 5:00 a.m. 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 slide. 20 Q. All right. Now, is that -- this is
21 A. Okay. 21 your model, that's what you ultimately prepared
22 Q. Is there -- describe for us where the 22 in this case.
23 water is in the Lower Ninth Ward. 23 A. Yes. Our team prepared this, yes.
24 A. From the 5:00 a.m. slide it's in the 24 Q. Your team. And this model is the
25 northern part of the Lower Ninth Ward. 25 culmination of efforts of yourself,
Page 74 Page 76
19 (Pages 73 to 76)
1 Dr. Ebersole, Dr. Westerink, Dr. Resio and the 1 Lower Ninth fills up first, and then the entire
2 other folks who contributed to the data you 2 length of the 40 Arpent Canal all sort of
3 relied on for your model. 3 overtops at once. Starting around 9:00 a.m.
4 A. Could you rephrase the question? 4 A. And what's your question?
5 Q. It's ultimately a culmination of 5 Q. Is that a general description of how
6 efforts of yourself, Dr. Ebersole, Westerink, 6 it happened?
7 Resio and the other folks from whom you got 7 A. Very general.
8 input data. 8 Q. Okay. When the 40 Arpent Canal
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 overflowed or overtopped and St. Bernard basin
10 Q. And you've already told us who all 10 filled up, that water all came from the central
11 that was. Now, I'm going to play it for the 11 wetland unit, correct?
12 camera and not stop it, I'm going to let it 12 A. Yes. Generally, yes.
13 roll. 13 Q. My question to you is, how long did it
14 So am I correct that the Ninth Ward 14 take for the central wetlands unit to get full?
15 fills up first, and then after that it all sort 15 A. The, um -- I'm going to refer to a
16 of fills up -- as the bathtub gets full it 16 hydrograph in here.
17 fills up when the water overflows the entire 17 Q. Sure, just tell us which one.
18 rim of the 40 arpent levee. 18 A. I will. I'm looking at Figure 9D on
19 A. Generally speaking, yes. 19 Page 23.
20 Q. Okay. Now, did I -- I didn't ask you, 20 Q. 9?
21 but did you calculate in any way how long it 21 A. It's Figure 9D.
22 took for the central wetlands unit to fill up 22 Q. D as in David, Page 23.
23 to the point that it then overtopped the 40 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 arpent levee? 24 Q. Okay.
25 A. What was the question again? 25 A. And that's a stage hydrograph located
Page 77 Page 79
1 Q. Okay. In the central wetlands unit -- 1 near the 40 arpent levee.

2 I'll ply it again. The Lower Ninth Ward 2 Q. Okay.
3 appears to fill up first. And it is your 3 A. At the time the model -- the HEC-RAS,
4 opinion that that water is coming from the IHNC 4 H-E-C-R-A-S model -- the model indicated that
5 breach at the north end of the IHNC, correct? 5 the initial overtopping of the levees along the
6 MS. GREIF: 6 north and east side of the basin started
7 Objection. Foundation. 7 overtopping somewhere around 6:00 a.m. or so.
8 A. Um -- would you repeat the question, 8 Q. And you're referring to the 40 arpent
9 please? 9 levee.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 10 A. No, sir, I'm referring.
11 Q. Lower Ninth Ward fills up first. The 11 Q. To the MRGO levee.
12 source of that water, is it from the central 12 A. I'm referring to the Chalmette levee.
13 wetlands unit or is it from the Inner Harbor 13 In the report I call it the Chalmette levee and
14 Navigational Canal? 14 the Chalmette Extension.
15 A. It's primarily from the Inner Harbor 15 Q. Between I think you said Bayou
16 Navigational Canal. 16 Bienvenue and Bayou Dupre, primarily?
17 Q. Okay. And then at a certain point, 17 A. Right, out there in that area --
18 the rest of St. Bernard Parish seems to all 18 Q. Okay.
19 fill up at once or, you know, in a -- the whole 19 A. -- that's correct. And started around
20 length of the 40 arpent levee is overtopped at 20 6:00 a.m. roughly, don't remember the exact
21 the same time. 21 time, and our model and then some field
22 MS. GREIF: 22 evidence or, I guess, some observations showed
23 Objection. 23 it already coming over the 40 arpent around
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 24 between 8:00 -- between 8:00 and 8:30, 9:00
25 Q. Roughly. You want to watch it again? 25 time frame, somewhere right in there.
Page 78 Page 80
20 (Pages 77 to 80)
1 Q. Okay. 1 Q. Uh-huh.
2 A. And so that's about, what is that, 2 A. -- back after Hurricane Katrina, and
3 two, two and a half hours -- 3 there was data that was used to build a HEC-RAS
4 Q. All right. 4 model of St. Bernard Parish. And the source of
5 A. -- for it to fill up. 5 that data is in the -- is referenced in my
6 Q. So is it your testimony that it took 6 report back in the IPET reports, all that data
7 the central wetlands unit about two to two and 7 is in there, or the reference to that data
8 a half hours to fill up from the time it first 8 would be in those reports. And then the, um --
9 started -- the water first started overtopping 9 you asked me earlier about the surge
10 the MRGO levee. Two and a half hours later 10 hydrographs. That data came from
11 it's overtopping the 40 arpent levee? Correct? 11 Dr. Westerink 's hydrodynamics team, and the
12 A. Generally that's correct, roughly. 12 wave overtopping information came from
13 Q. Do you know how much water it would 13 Dr. Resio, and input from Mr. Ebersole in
14 take to fill up the central wetlands unit? 14 establishing the breaches, how we should model
15 A. Um -- no, not off the top of my head. 15 the breaches, consultation with him.
16 Q. Have you calculated or attempted to 16 Q. Let me make sure I'm straight on this.
17 calculate the amount of water it would take to 17 You indicated you got some of this information
18 fill up the central wetlands unit? 18 from the IPET report itself, and some from
19 A. No. 19 these folks, from Ebersole and Westerink and
20 Q. The hydrograph you showed me here on 20 Resio. For purposes of this report that you
21 9D, Figure 9D, Page 23, what is the source of 21 did for the DOJ, which information did you get
22 this hydrograph? Did you create this? 22 from IPET and which information did you get
23 A. What's your question? 23 from Ebersole, Westerink and Resio?
24 Q. What data did you use to create Figure 24 A. Do you want to go over all the
25 9D, all these hydrographs? 25 different elements?
Page 81 Page 83
1 MS. GREIF: 1 Q. Sure. That's fine. Just in your

2 Objection. 2 report tell us where you are.
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 3 A. Can we start with the report?
4 Q. What is the source of your data for 4 Q. Sure. Go anywhere you want.
5 these hydrographs? 5 A. Okay. On Page 8, the subsection
6 MS. GREIF: 6 called input data, okay? The primary source of
7 Well, you've asked did he, first. 7 the data is the IPET work and the reports.
8 He never answered that question. 8 Q. Do you know which part of the IPET
9 MR. STEVENS: 9 work?
10 Either way. He can answer one at 10 A. The interior drainage.
11 a time. 11 Q. Okay. And that's work you did, right?
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 12 You were the interior drainage team for IPET.
13 Q. Did you prepare these? 13 A. I was on the interior drainage team,
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 yes.
15 Q. What is the source of the data you 15 Q. So you used your data.
16 used to prepare those? 16 A. Yes. That's that the team developed,
17 A. Source of the data was the HEC-RAS 17 that's correct.
18 model this analysis. For this case. 18 Q. And the information you got for the
19 Q. Okay. But the actual -- the 19 interior drainage team for IPET likewise came
20 information that went into the HEC-RAS model, 20 from Westerink, Ebersole and Resio.
21 where did that data come from? 21 MS. GREIF:
22 A. Several sources of data. 22 Objection.
23 Q. Okay. 23 A. Um -- I don't remember all -- I don't
24 A. There was -- it started with the IPET 24 remember all who did what. I generally knew
25 effort -- 25 people's responsibility, but I don't know who
Page 82 Page 84
21 (Pages 81 to 84)
1 provided what information specifically. 1 kind of things, because you have limited points
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 2 in which to obtain those elevations, and then
3 Q. Who provided to you the surge data for 3 all the uncertainties that go along with how
4 your interior drainage team on the IPET report? 4 accurately those elevations are measured and
5 A. It would have been the team that 5 computed. So that's one.
6 Dr. Westerink was on and Dr. Resio. 6 Q. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
7 Q. So you got your surge and wave data 7 Go ahead.
8 from, surge data from Westerink, wave data from 8 A. That's one. Um -- and then also, we
9 Resio. 9 don't have the data or information in storms
10 A. In the IPET report, I don't -- the 10 like this, or any storm actually. You don't
11 wave information might not have come from 11 have all the data or information that we would
12 Dr. Resio. Because I think that came after we 12 like as hydraulics and hydrologists in order to
13 completed our model back in those days. 13 model the hydraulic and hydrology parameters as
14 Q. The wave data used in this report came 14 accurately as we'd like to. We get as much as
15 from Resio. 15 we can and do the best we can.
16 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Now, under Assumptions, it says -- and
17 Q. All right. Now at the bottom of 17 I guess the other thing is, that's sort of
18 Page 8, you say this report summarizes the 18 common in performing your type of modeling in
19 input data and includes changes made from what 19 hydrologic and hydraulic modeling that you're
20 is reported in the IPET reports. Correct? 20 going to have to fill in some gaps, there's
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 going to be missing information or missing data
22 Q. What changes were made from what was 22 from time to time.
23 reported in the IPET reports? 23 MS. GREIF:
24 A. I have this written down in here. I'm 24 Is that a question?
25 going to go -- 25 MR. STEVENS:
Page 85 Page 87
1 Q. By all means. It's not Quiz Bowl, you 1 Yeah.

2 don't have to have it all committed to memory. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
3 A. Thank you. Okay, one of the changes 3 Q. So you have to make assumptions to
4 or one of the things we did to improve the IPET 4 facilitate the analysis.
5 model and refined for this analysis were the 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 levee crest elevations, and we, um -- looked at 6 Q. Okay. The first assumption says that
7 and put in different breach information, breach 7 sources known to contribute relatively small
8 modeling, and we got -- we received the surge 8 volumes of waters within the St. Bernard basin
9 hydrographs and the wave information was 9 were not modeled. This includes water blown
10 different from the IPET report, that we got 10 over the top of the levees and floodwalls, back
11 from the other experts. 11 flow through pumps and groundwater.
12 Q. Now, at the top of Page 9, it says, 12 Why were those considered to be
13 even though there are uncertainties and some 13 insignificant or not worthy of modeling?
14 unknowns, the data is the best available of 14 A. Well, the first one, we know that
15 typical quality for hydrologic and hydraulic 15 water -- well, we observed through, um -- other
16 analysis and is sufficient to meet the 16 storms that water does get blown over the tops
17 objectives of this report. 17 of levees and flood walls, and it's a very,
18 So what were the uncertainties and 18 very small quantity compared to the area here
19 unknowns that were sort of, as we say in 19 and what ended up inside the basin. I think
20 Opelousas, close enough for church work? 20 that's a practice done within our profession
21 A. Um-- it's the uncertainties inherent 21 that that's usually ignored. It's not
22 with any model like this that people do -- 22 something done specifically for this analysis.
23 Q. Uh-huh. 23 Back flow through pumps, um -- there
24 A. -- having to do with the, um -- with 24 are -- there was only -- there's pump stations
25 the topographic information, the surveys, those 25 in this system of levees here, and the type of
Page 86 Page 88
22 (Pages 85 to 88)
1 pumps that were there -- I understand, I'm not 1 A. Looks like the, um -- the flood depths
2 the pump expert, I understand the type of pumps 2 in that area, except for the Lower Ninth area,
3 that were there that back flow was not a, um -- 3 looks like that is from rainfall up to about
4 significant problem here. 4 8:00 a.m.
5 And then groundwater, um -- we assumed 5 Q. All right. So we go to 8:00 a.m. on
6 what the groundwater would just stay the same 6 the animation and stop. We see the central
7 as it was before, there wasn't a lot of change 7 wetlands unit is full, the Lower Ninth Ward is
8 in the groundwater and that that amount would 8 completely flooded -- right? And the other
9 be insignificant as well. 9 water in the St. Bernard basin is rainwater.
10 Q. Okay. Let me go back to something I 10 Correct? That is to say it hasn't received
11 was asking you about a minute ago. I think 11 much if any water from the central wetlands
12 I've played it a couple of times, but I want to 12 unit over -- by overtopping of the 40 arpent
13 make sure we're on the same page here with your 13 levee.
14 model. I'm going to play it again from 14 A. That is correct, except looks like
15 3:30 a.m. until 1:30. You have all the slides, 15 some of the area in the Lower Ninth is starting
16 if you want to see the animation itself, by all 16 to flow eastward.
17 means I'll turn it around for you. 17 Q. To migrate eastward --
18 A. I've got them here. 18 A. At 8:00 a.m., it's starting to flow
19 Q. If you just thumb through those real 19 that way.
20 fast you'll get the same effect. All right. 20 Q. Okay. Now, do you know at that moment
21 But the way it looks to me, tell me if I'm 21 in time, 8:00 a.m., August 29th, 2005, what the
22 wrong, once the central wetlands unit is 22 surge level was in the MRGO?
23 full -- and I guess I would ask you to tell me 23 A. I don't -- I don't know right now.
24 on which of those slides, using the time up 24 Q. Do you know where the eye of the storm
25 here, at what time was the central wetlands 25 was?
Page 89 Page 91
1 unit full? 1 A. No, sir.

2 A. Um -- 2 Q. Do you know what the status of the
3 Q. And I'm saying -- 3 peak storm surge was as of 8:00 a.m.?
4 A. What do you mean by full? 4 A. Um -- from my recollection of looking
5 Q. Okay. Let's assume it's a bathtub, 5 at the surge hydrographs from Dr. Westerink,
6 the basin, the central wetlands unit is a 6 and this is purely from my recollection, which
7 bathtub. At what point is it full where it's 7 may be in error, but I recall that the peak
8 about to start overflowing the levees or the 8 surge in the -- just outside of the levees was,
9 rim of the tub? 9 um -- in this time frame, close to this time
10 A. Are we referring to about to overflow 10 frame, in the 7:00 to 9:00 -- you know, kind of
11 the 40 arpent levee? 11 in this time frame.
12 Q. Yes. Obviously it had to overflow the 12 Q. Okay. Let me ask you if we could go
13 MRGO levee to get full. But go ahead. What 13 to -- I think it might be in the executive
14 time frame shows that moment? 14 summary portion of your report. Let me find it
15 A. It looks like to me that the flood 15 real quick. But you talked about that a bit --
16 depths within the area between the Mississippi 16 A. Okay.
17 River and the 40 arpent, um -- 17 Q. -- where you talked about the
18 Q. You mean the Mississippi River Gulf 18 difference between what the plaintiffs' experts
19 Outlet? 19 determined and what the United States' experts
20 A. No, between the Mississippi River and 20 determined. Let me find that. Where does it
21 the 40 arpent. 21 say that? Well, let me find it. It's in here.
22 Q. Okay. So south of St. Bernard? Or 22 You said what the plaintiffs' expert described
23 south of the 40 arpent levee. 23 the surge peak from 9:00 to 11:00 a.m. but the
24 A. Yes. 24 defense experts would have said from 2:00 to
25 Q. Okay. 25 3:00. You remember that?
Page 90 Page 92
23 (Pages 89 to 92)
1 A. Yes. I recall that. 1 here.

2 Q. If you could steer me to that section 2 Q. Okay. So Jackson Barracks in the
3 of your report it would be helpful, but I'll 3 southern portion of the Lower Ninth Ward has
4 find it eventually, if you give me a second. 4 ten and a half feet of water reported by 2:45
5 It's probably bouncing off my eyes because I'm 5 p.m. right?
6 looking for it too hard. 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Yeah. Let's go to Page 15 -- I'm 7 Q. By that time, there's been the north
8 sorry. Page 26. 8 breach, the south breach and all the levee
9 A. Uh-huh. 9 overtoppings have already occurred. True?
10 Q. All right. Page 26, the very bottom 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 paragraph, it says a comparison of the stage 11 Q. Okay. Now, when you're talking about
12 hydrographs indicates plaintiffs' peak water 12 peak water levels, you're talking about stage
13 surface elevations occurred in the 9:00 to 13 hydrographs. In terms of surge hydrographs,
14 11:00 a.m. time frame. And we defined stage 14 outside the basin, are you referring to surge
15 hydrograph earlier. That's after it's in the 15 hydrographs in the central wetlands unit or
16 basin, correct? 16 outside the MRGO levee?
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 A. The surge hydrographs are outside the
18 Q. That's on the inside of the 18 Chalmette Extension levee.
19 St. Bernard basin. 19 Q. Okay. So do you know when the peak
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 surge elevations occurred outside the Chalmette
21 Q. So the peak water elevations inside 21 levee? In the MRGO we'll call it.
22 the basin are 9:00 to 11:00 a.m -- 22 A. For which, um -- which version? You
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 talking about the plaintiffs' version or U.S.
24 Q. -- according to the plaintiffs' 24 version?
25 experts. Right? 25 Q. Both.
Page 93 Page 95
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 A. Um -- the plaintiffs and the U.S.

2 Q. According to the U.S., the peaks are 2 version, the peaks of the surge elevations,
3 from 2:00 to 3:00, right? But it doesn't say 3 from my recollection, from looking at them,
4 time frame. Is that a.m. or p.m.? 4 it's been a while, um -- I believe they were in
5 A. That would be p.m. 5 the -- at the 7:00 to 9:00 a.m. time frame.
6 Q. P.m. Okay. Now, and you say at 6 Q. Okay.
7 Jackson Barracks the peak is ten and a half 7 A. In that time frame. And I think they
8 feet, the peak of ten and a half feet was 8 were both, you know, similar. Similar time
9 reported to have occurred at about 2:45 p.m. 9 frames.
10 Now, that's not your work, that's from the IPET 10 Q. All right.
11 report, right? 11 A. But I know it did vary, you know, up
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 and down at different locations along the
13 Q. Which is, in a sense, partially your 13 levees generally.
14 work. But Jackson Barracks is located sort of 14 Q. What about the U.S. 's peak surge
15 in the lower section of the Lower Ninth, 15 elevations?
16 correct? Do you know where Jackson Barracks 16 A. I believe they were in the 7:00 to
17 is? 17 9:00.
18 A. Approximately I know where it is. 18 Q. Same time zone, basic agreement there.
19 Q. If you would maybe grab one of the 19 Right?
20 earlier ones before the water is completely 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 there and put a -- write a JB. You're using 21 Q. Now, in terms of where that peak is
22 the 3:30 a.m. slide. 22 measured, can you tell me if that peak at 7:00
23 A. I'll just use that one. 23 to 9:00 a.m. is at the mouth of the MRGO,
24 Q. That's fine. JB for Jackson Barracks. 24 midpoint of the MRGO, all the way up into the
25 A. I believe it's right in this area 25 Industrial Canal? Where is the peak?
Page 94 Page 96
24 (Pages 93 to 96)
1 A. The ones I'm referring to, the 7:00 to 1 them out of order.
2 9:00, would be the ones along the Chalmette and 2 Q. Take your time.
3 Chalmette Extension. 3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Okay. So between Bayou Dupre and 4 Q. All set?
5 Bayou Bienvenue? 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. All right. What is the water depth in
7 Q. All right. Which of these peak 7 the central wetland unit?
8 elevations and locations does your model adopt? 8 A. It varies from less than one foot up
9 A. Um -- what do you mean by which 9 to appears to be in the six to eight foot
10 location? I'm trying to -- 10 range.
11 Q. Well, does your model assume surge, 11 Q. Okay. And it is overtopping -- is it
12 peak surge, at any particular location, mouth 12 beginning to overtop the 40 arpent levee at
13 of the MRGO, Reach 2, Reach 1? 13 all?
14 A. Um -- the surge hydrographs, the surge 14 A. From this plot you can't -- it's
15 hydrographs, which is the whole hydrograph, not 15 difficult to tell if it's starting at eight
16 just the peek -- 16 o'clock. 8:00 a.m.
17 Q. Uh-huh. 17 Q. I'm sorry. Say it again.
18 A. -- we got at different locations along 18 A. On this particular plot, at 8:00 a.m.
19 here. 19 it's difficult to see if it is actually
20 Q. Okay. 20 starting to overflow, from this plot.
21 A. So we had peak hydrographs, um -- 21 Q. Okay. In any event, the Lower Ninth
22 along the Chalmette Extension part of the 22 is full and starting to migrate into
23 levee, we had them on the southern part of the, 23 St. Bernard Parish to the east, right?
24 um -- I think we call it in our report the 24 A. Yes. The Lower Ninth is flooded and
25 Chalmette Ycloskey, and then we got hydrographs 25 migrating east.
Page 97 Page 99
1 along the GIWW. 1 Q. And what is the water depth or average

2 Q. Okay. 2 water depth in the Lower Ninth Ward at this
3 A. And we would -- there is a lot of 3 point in time, 8:00 a.m.?
4 hydrographs developed by the ADCIRC team and we 4 A. The range is from -1 foot to looks
5 picked the locations to insert into the model. 5 like either 8 to 10 feet or greater than
6 Q. I didn't ask you about who was on the 6 10 feet.
7 ADCIRC team. Was there a certain team of folks 7 Q. Okay.
8 who worked on the ADCIRC modeling that you 8 A. It's difficult to tell with the color
9 relied on? 9 gradation more specific than that.
10 A. For this case? 10 Q. And the source of the water in the
11 Q. Yes. For this model. For these 11 Lower Ninth at this point in time, do you know
12 hydrographs. 12 if there's been any overtopping of the levee or
13 A. Yeah. It was a team that reported to 13 is that all from the north breach of the
14 Joannes Westerink. 14 Industrial Canal?
15 Q. Uh-huh. So the source of your ADCIRC 15 A. Could you repeat the question?
16 data, if you will, for your model is 16 Q. Sure. What is the source of the water
17 Dr. Westerink. 17 in the Lower Ninth?
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 A. Some rainfall, but primarily it would
19 Q. Okay. Now, back to my eight o'clock 19 be from the IHNC, from overtopping of the wall
20 slide -- or your eight o'clock slide -- the 20 and two breaches that occurred.
21 basin is now full -- the central wetlands unit 21 Q. By eight o'clock, the second breach
22 is now full, Lower Ninth Ward is now flooded. 22 occurred, the south breach had also occurred,
23 What is the water depth in the central wetlands 23 correct?
24 unit? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. Excuse me just a minute. I've got 25 Q. Okay. Let's go forward to 8:30. And
Page 98 Page 100
25 (Pages 97 to 100)
1 tell us if there's been any overtopping as yet. 1 information in connection with your report in
2 A. Overtopping from which location? 2 this case?
3 Overtopping from -- 3 A. Um -- it's referred to in the report
4 Q. Of the 40 arpent levee. 4 and it's in the model that was provided.
5 A. Okay. Yes, by 8:30 the overtopping is 5 Q. Right. The levee elevations or levee
6 beginning to occur. 6 profile information in your report, or that
7 Q. Okay. 7 supports your report, is that -- the source of
8 A. Based on looking at the exhibit. 8 the information is the IPET?
9 Q. And can you tell us on this slide, and 9 A. Yeah. The elevations are in the --
10 I guess it's Exhibit 3, the 8:30 slide, where 10 elevations are in the HEC-RAS model.
11 the overtopping is taking place? You can show 11 Q. Okay. And we'll go through that in a
12 us with the red pen. Feel free to write on it. 12 bit. I want to do a quick time line and see
13 A. Looks like it's occurring several 13 where we end up here. But let's keep going.
14 places along the levee. 14 The next slide is 9. Right? And I'll
15 Q. If you would, circle them or highlight 15 stop it. Tell us what's going on at nine
16 them. 16 o'clock. So we just advanced from 8:30 to
17 A. Okay. (Witness complies.) 17 9:00.
18 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald, you've had an 18 A. Well, the water filling in the area
19 opportunity to circle the areas on Exhibit 3, 19 between Mississippi River and the 40 arpent
20 the 8:30 a.m. time frames which are used where 20 from water coming over the 40 arpent. And the
21 all the overtopping is taking place of the 40 21 water from the -- that's coming in from the
22 arpent levee, correct? 22 IHNC is spreading -- continuing to spread
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 eastward.
24 Q. And the 40 arpent levee, what is the 24 Q. And the water depth, is it still 6 to
25 crest elevation of that levee? 25 8 feet, 8 to 10 feet? What is the water depth
Page 101 Page 103
1 A. It varies. Um -- and from my 1 in the central wetlands unit?

2 recollection of looking at the data in the 2 A. It varies from less than 1 up to 6 to
3 model, I'm going to give a general -- 3 8, maybe 8 to 10.
4 generalized answer from about 6 to 10 feet. 4 Q. And so the darker areas are 8 to 10
5 Q. Okay. So average 8 feet; is that 5 and the little shaded that areas must be along
6 fair? 6 to 10, 8 is in the middle? 6 levees or on ridges or whatever, it's 1 to 2,
7 A. I wouldn't average it. 7 or less than 1 in some places.
8 Q. Okay. So 6 to 10 feet. Fair enough. 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 And at this point in time, this is 9 Q. Okay. I understand. All right.
10 when the second bowl, if you will, the second 10 We'll go to 9:30. Just a continuation of the
11 bathtub, starts to fill up, separate and apart 11 same effect; correct? The St. Bernard area is
12 from the Lower Nine which is already full. 12 now filling up with water.
13 A. Um -- yes, the area between 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Mississippi River and the 40 arpent is starting 14 Q. All right. 10:00 o'clock, it just
15 to receive water. Yes. 15 progresses.
16 Q. And do you know where along the 40 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 arpent levee the elevation is 6 feet versus 10n 17 Q. 10:30, 11:00, it's just getting
18 feet? 18 darker, so the water is getting higher,
19 A. I couldn't tell you that now. 19 correct?
20 Q. And the source of your information 20 A. Yes, sir, it's getting higher and
21 that the 40 arpent levee is 6 to 10 feet in 21 spreading, or flowing.
22 elevation, where do you get that? 22 Q. All right. Tell me when the
23 A. It was developed as part of the IPET 23 St. Bernard basin is full.
24 effort. 24 MS. GREIF:
25 Q. Okay. And did you produce that 25 Objection.
Page 102 Page 104
26 (Pages 101 to 104)

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 1 then, we're going to start at 3:00 a.m. Wave
2 Q. What time -- is there a time frame in 2 overtopping. Right? That's separate from
3 one of these slides, 8A through 8J in your 3 surge overtopping. Right?
4 report, half hour increments from 3:30 a.m. to 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 1:00 p.m. when you believe the St. Bernard 5 Q. All right. At 3:50 a.m., we talked
6 basin is full? 6 earlier, the north breach of the Industrial
7 A. Um -- it's not -- no, sir, it's not in 7 Canal happened around Florida Avenue. Right?
8 the set. 8 A. Yes, according to our model, that's
9 Q. It stops short of that; correct? 9 correct.
10 A. Um -- yes, sir. 10 Q. Does your model have the ability to
11 Q. Let me ask you this: If wave action 11 analyze or evaluate the effect of that breach
12 according to your report or wave overtopping 12 on water levels in the MRGO?
13 began at the MRGO levee sometime around 3:00 13 A. Could you repeat the question?
14 a.m., and water continued to rise beyond 14 Q. Sure. Let me give you a little
15 1:00 p.m., why does your model only show 15 foundation first to sort of set up my question.
16 3:30 a.m. until 1:00 p.m.? 16 And I don't know if it's accurate or not.
17 A. We were just trying to show a 17 Don't trust my math or my science. I'm a
18 representations of what was happening 18 liberal arts major for a reason. But if the
19 hydraulically in this, um -- animation. 19 storm surge is coming in, water is rising in
20 Q. Okay. Now, you have hydraulic 20 the MRGO, right? Water is flowing towards New
21 simulations, according to your report they be 21 Orleans; correct? Toward the Industrial Canal.
22 given August 28th, the day before what we're 22 Water is flowing up the MRGO. Is that a
23 looking at here on Exhibit Number 3, at noon -- 23 correct statement?
24 according to your report, at noon Central 24 A. I'm not -- I'm not in the
25 Daylight Time on August 28 of '05, you have 25 hydrodynamics world on how the surge moves and
Page 105 Page 107
1 simulations that continue until midnight on 1 all that.

2 August 30th, '08. That's on Page 8. 2 Q. That's beyond your expertise.
3 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 3 A. I'd hate to even try to guess where
4 Q. Okay. So if I wanted to get 30-minute 4 it's flowing.
5 increments for that whole time, you could 5 Q. But your model analyzes water levels,
6 provide those, correct? Just like you have 6 right --
7 here. These are samples. 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. -- inside the central wetlands unit
9 Q. All right. I may, I don't know that I 9 and inside the St. Bernard basin, true?
10 need them yet. 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 But let's look at -- according to your 11 Q. All right. Well, when the breach
12 report, we'll go the Page 17, I can ask the 12 occurred at the north end of the Industrial
13 question or I can make the statement and you 13 Canal, Florida Avenue breach, the north breach,
14 can correct me if I'm wrong. It will be faster 14 when that breach occurred it allowed water to
15 that way, but if I say something incorrect 15 flow in from the Industrial Canal, correct?
16 please stop me. Am I correct that at 3:00 a.m. 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 on August 29, 2005 wave overtopping of the MRGO 17 Q. All right. Did you in any way analyze
18 levee began? According to your report. Go the 18 or to your knowledge did anybody else analyze
19 Page 17, under Section 4.2, Results. Where did 19 what effect that would have on water levels in
20 I get that? Last paragraph. Along the levee 20 the MRGO?
21 adjacent to MRGO, the model indicates wave 21 A. I do not know if anybody analyzed
22 overtopping began around 3:00 a.m. on 22 that.
23 August 29th. 23 Q. Okay. You did not.
24 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 24 A. I did not.
25 Q. So if I want to start a time line 25 Q. Would you be capable of doing that?
Page 106 Page 108
27 (Pages 105 to 108)

1 A. No, sir. 1 A. (Witness complies.) Okay.

2 MR. FISHER: 2 Q. Okay? Thank you. Now, according to
3 Counsel, is that water levels in 3 your report the next significant event was that
4 the MRGO or the IHNC which you 4 at approximately -- you say the first flow
5 referenced a minute ago? 5 through a breach occurred at 6:00 a.m. That's
6 MR. STEVENS: 6 at the top of Page 18. First full sentence,
7 Both, actually. 7 the model calculated that the first flow
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 8 through a breach occurred about 6:00 a.m.
9 Q. You didn't analyze water levels in 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 either the IHNC or the MRGO. 10 Q. You with me on that? All right.
11 A. I did not. 11 Where did the first flow through a breach occur
12 Q. Okay. Now, you us that -- in your 12 at 6:00 a.m.? And we can look at the 6:00 a.m.
13 report, I think it's on the same page, that at 13 slide. And if you would, show me on that slide
14 approximately 5:00 a.m. the floodwall under the 14 where that first flow through a breach took
15 Paris Road overtopped. I'm just trying to get 15 place.
16 a sequence of events, because they're not 16 A. To the best of my recollection, it was
17 necessarily in time sequence in your report. 17 down here near Bayou Bienvenue.
18 But the next sentence, last paragraph on Page 18 Q. Okay. If you would, just circle it
19 17: Surge overtopping is estimated to have 19 and draw an arrow off to the side and label it
20 begun at the floodwall under Paris Road around 20 first flow through a breach.
21 5:00 a.m. 21 A. (Witness complies.)
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. May I see what you?
23 Q. Okay. What is the source of that 23 A. Estimated first flow through the
24 estimation, if you will? 24 breach.
25 A. That was from our HEC-RAS model. 25 Q. Okay. I'm just looking to see where
Page 109 Page 111
1 Q. Okay. So 3:00 a.m. there's wave 1 you put it. Let's see.
2 overtopping of the MRGO levee, 5:00 a.m. 2 A. Okay.
3 there's surge overtopping of the floodwall 3 MR. STEVENS:
4 under Paris Road. Right? 4 Gilley, when I hold these up here
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 it's for you.
6 Q. And the floodwall under Paris Road is 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
7 adjacent to the MRGO as well. That's surge 7 Q. All right. First flow through the
8 overtopping in the MRGO. 8 breach here. And that's generally in the Bayou
9 A. No, sir. 9 Bienvenue area.
10 Q. Where is that? 10 A. Yes.
11 A. Paris Road is on the GIWW. 11 Q. All right. And what is the source of
12 Q. Oh, okay. 12 that conclusion or opinion?
13 A. What I refer to as the GIWW. 13 A. Of the time?
14 Q. Can you show us what is the time frame 14 Q. Yeah. What causes you to form the
15 nearest 5:00 a.m. on -- 15 belief that the first flow through a breach
16 A. On Exhibit 3? 16 happened at that time in that place?
17 Q. On Exhibit 3, the 5:00 a.m. time 17 A. I got that out of the HEC-RAS model.
18 image, circle for us where the floodwall under 18 Q. Okay.
19 Paris Road was experiencing surge overtopping. 19 A. Looking at the results.
20 A. I'll just circle it. 20 Q. I'm sorry?
21 Q. Okay. And if you would, label that 21 A. Looking at the results.
22 some kind of way so if we look at it -- you can 22 Q. And so you went to a hydrograph in the
23 draw off to this yellow area where you can 23 HEC-RAS model?
24 write and we can read it. Surge overtopping 24 A. Um -- yes, I believe there's a
25 Paris Road. 25 hydrograph at that location.
Page 110 Page 112
28 (Pages 109 to 112)

1 Q. Okay. 1 Q. Okay. At the moment in time 6:00 a.m.

2 (Off the record.) 2 when the first breaching occurred, we're
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 3 looking at the beginning of the breach, and I
4 Q. Okay. I was asking you what was the 4 would assume it got deeper or more significant
5 source of the conclusion that the first flow 5 as time passed.
6 occurred at that time at that location. You 6 A. Yes, that was our assumption.
7 said it was the HEC-RAS model. 7 Q. Okay. 6:30 a.m. is surge overtopping
8 And the HEC-RAS, I assume, takes the 8 at the entire reach of the MRGO, right?
9 levee profile and the hydrographs and matches 9 According to your report. And it says -- let
10 them up some kind of way? 10 me find it -- the model calculated the first
11 A. Generally speaking. 11 flow through a breach occurred at 6:00 a.m.,
12 Q. My crude layman's appreciation of it? 12 and by 7:00 a.m. flow occurred through all the
13 Okay. Is there a specific hydrograph that we 13 breach locations adjacent to the MRGO. So
14 can go to, or a specific section of the HEC-RAS 14 between 6:00 and 7:00. I used 6:30 to put it
15 model? 15 on my time line. Is that -- by 6:30, surge
16 A. Yes. 16 overtopping is occurring throughout the entire
17 Q. All right, sir. 17 reach of the MRGO.
18 A. Yes, you can. 18 A. Um -- you're asking two questions here
19 Q. Is it referenced in your report? 19 and I'm confused.
20 A. No, sir. 20 Q. All right. I want to know -- I want
21 Q. Okay. At that moment, 6:00 a.m., 21 you to show me -- let's go to the 6:30 window.
22 August 29, peak storm surge has not yet 22 All right? The 6:30 image of Exhibit 3,
23 occurred, correct? 23 formerly known as Figure 8 -- I don't know, one
24 A. No, I don't believe it has. 24 of the A through Js, but it's the 6:30 slide.
25 Q. And at 6:00 a.m., according to what 25 A. I have it.
Page 113 Page 115
1 you said earlier, it was 6:30 before surge 1 Q. And according to your report it was
2 overtopping occurred. This is wave overtopping 2 between 6:00 and 7:00 that water was now
3 or surge overtopping at the location you just 3 flowing through all the breach locations
4 marked for us at Bayou Bienvenue on the 4 adjacent to the MRGO.
5 6:00 a.m.? 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. Could you rephrase the question? I'm 6 Q. All the breach locations you
7 just trying to follow you. 7 ultimately concluded were eleven by
8 Q. Yeah. I should ask questions instead 8 consolidating some or aggregating some into
9 of try to make statements. That's when I get 9 eleven separate areas, right? Now that's what
10 in trouble, with her and you. 10 you're referring to when you say all the
11 What type of overtopping is this, wave 11 locations.
12 overtopping or surge overtopping? On -- the 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 first -- 13 Q. All right. Which in layman's terms,
14 A. At the first breach? 14 basically the entire levee was being overtopped
15 Q. Yeah, at the first breach. 15 by surge at 6:30 a.m.
16 A. It would be both. 16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Okay. And when we look at the breach 17 Q. Okay. Tell me what it means then.
18 profiles in a little bit, because you did a 18 Again, I got to start letting you talk.
19 graph of how big the breaches were, et cetera, 19 A. I'm not sure what -- would ask you me
20 those breach profiles were determined after the 20 the question?
21 fact, right? Meaning after the storm was over 21 Q. Sure. I want you to tell me what you
22 is when you figured out how deep they 22 mean when you say way by 7:00 a.m. All right?
23 ultimately became. 23 First one occurred at 6:00, and by 7:00 --
24 A. Yes, they were developed after the 24 that's why I used 6:30, as sort of the midpoint
25 fact. 25 between 6:00 and 7:00 -- by 7:00 flow occurred
Page 114 Page 116
29 (Pages 113 to 116)

1 through all the breach locations adjacent to 1 reached final grade?

2 the MRGO. 2 A. Um -- until, um -- all the water
3 A. Correct. 3 drained out.
4 Q. All the breach locations adjacent to 4 Q. Okay. And how long did it take before
5 the MRGO is the eleven aggregated breach 5 all the water drained out?
6 locations that you have a map of in your 6 A. I don't know.
7 report? 7 Q. You never calculated that.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. And we'll go through that in a bit. 9 Q. Now I guess I confused myself, because
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 there are two things here. I had lumped -- I
11 Q. And so my question is, what type of 11 thought I had lumped them together. The
12 overtopping or flow, what type of flow are we 12 statement you made that between 6:00 and 7:00,
13 talking about? 13 from first flow through a breach occurred at
14 A. Okay. Yeah. The flow is from the 14 6:00, and by 7:00 a.m. flow was occurring
15 outside of the levee opposite of the central 15 throughout all the breach locations, I had said
16 wetlands, and that would be surge and waves. 16 was 6:30, but that's not correct. I have that
17 Q. So it was both surge and wave 17 listed as seven o'clock on my time line. At
18 overtopping. 18 6:30 -- the sentence before that says, by
19 A. Well, it's not overtopping, it's -- 19 6:30 a.m. surge overtopping had begun along
20 it's coming through the breaches. 20 most of the entire reach of the MRGO.
21 Q. Okay. 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 A. It's breach flow. 22 Q. So let's back up a second. 6:30 there
23 Q. Okay. So flow is not overtopping. 23 is surge overtopping the entire reach of the
24 Got you. So this is surge and wave breach 24 MRGO, according to your report.
25 flow. All right. See, I told you I was slow. 25 A. Along most of it.
Page 117 Page 119
1 I also said I was educable. That part is 1 Q. Okay. Now, can you show me on the
2 debatable. 2 6:30 -- did you write on the 6:30 one yet?
3 Now you say formation time for each 3 A. No, sir.
4 breach was assumed to be one and a half hours. 4 Q. Show me on the 6:30 slide where the
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 surge overtopping is occurring, and when you
6 Q. So from the first flow through a 6 say almost along the entire reach of the MRGO.
7 breach at 6:00 a.m. until around 7:30, an hour 7 A. It's going to be approximate. Is that
8 and half, right? That's the time it took for 8 okay?
9 all the breaches along the MRGO levee to take 9 Q. That's fine. Close enough for
10 place. 10 engineering.
11 A. No, sir. 11 A. (Witness complies.)
12 Q. Tell me what it means, then. 12 Q. Okay, again if you would be so kind as
13 A. So what's the question? 13 to label it for us some kind of way. That's
14 Q. Tell me what you mean when you say 14 surge overtopping entire reach of MRGO? Almost
15 formation time for each breach was assumed to 15 entire reach.
16 be one and a half hours. 16 Okay. Now, to correct my own time
17 A. Okay. When the breach was triggered, 17 line, at 6:30 surge overtopping, almost, or
18 then it would take one and a half hours for it 18 most of the entire reach of the MRGO. Seven
19 to degrade to the level established. 19 o'clock is when you make the next statement,
20 Q. To its final grade? 20 which is by 7:00 a.m. flow occurred through the
21 A. To its final grade. That's right. 21 breaches. So that's not flow that you showed
22 Q. All right. 22 us at 6:30, that's overtopping. Surge
23 A. That's for each one of the eleven. 23 overtopping.
24 Q. All right. Then how long did the flow 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 through those breaches continue after they 25 Q. At 6:30. At 7:00, now it's breach
Page 118 Page 120
30 (Pages 117 to 120)

1 flow. 1 east of Paris Road, which would be locations 5

2 A. Yes, by 7:00, all the breaches had 2 and C on your Figure 7, Page 17 of your report,
3 triggered and flow was going through them by 3 houses east of Paris Road at 9:30 a.m., those
4 7:00. 4 houses had 8 to 10 feet of water in them.
5 Q. They had triggered. 5 A. Yes, that's what I said in the
6 A. Yes. 6 reports.
7 Q. They had just begun to breach and it 7 Q. All right. And you say later there
8 took another hour and a half -- the first 8 was a peak of 11.3 feet of water in those
9 breach occurred at 6:00. By 7:00 there were 9 houses. Correct?
10 eleven breaches that you aggregate, and we'll 10 A. Yes. I said the model shows the depth
11 talk about those in a bit, and for the next 11 reaching 8 feet around 10:00 a.m. and reaching
12 hour or so, hour and a half, it took them that 12 a peak of 11.3.
13 long to get to their final depths, right? 13 Q. But what time was that peak of 11.3?
14 A. Correct. 14 Do we know?
15 Q. Final what did you call it, elevation? 15 A. I was using the IPET information as
16 Final grade. I got to use your terms. 16 referenced in the report, and they did not
17 A. We used bottom elevation. 17 provide the time.
18 Q. Okay. Final bottom elevation. 18 Q. So we don't know the exact time. All
19 They're all there by 7:00. And you said they 19 right.
20 flowed until all the water was gone. Right? 20 A. No, sir.
21 A. Yes, sir. There was flow through the 21 Q. And then I misspoke. There was one
22 breaches until all the water had drained out, 22 other time reference in your report. You said
23 yes, sir. 23 that at 2:45 p.m. on August 29, 2005, maximum
24 Q. The next event on my time line is, 24 water levels at Jackson Barracks, which is in
25 according to your report, at approximately 25 the lower portion of the Lower Ninth Ward --
Page 121 Page 123
1 7:15 a.m. is when the south breach on the 1 and I don't know if you gave what it was. You
2 Industrial Canal occurred. Near N. Claiborne 2 just said that was the maximum water level.
3 Avenue. 3 It's on Page 26 of your report.
4 A. What was the question? 4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Is that correct, that the south 5 Q. Can you tell me what the water level
6 breach -- 6 was when it was at the maximum?
7 A. I said the south breach near N. 7 A. Let's see. According to the IPET
8 Claiborne Avenue occurs between 7:00 and 8 report I referenced the peak was 10.5 feet at
9 7:30 a.m. 9 2:45 p.m.
10 Q. 7:15 would be between 7:00 and 730. 10 Q. So from one end, from the Lower Ninth
11 So if I could use 7:15 on my time line, that 11 Ward, Jackson Barracks, the peak water level
12 would be fair? 12 was 10.5 feet, and to the other end of the
13 A. If you want to, you can. 13 spectrum, the houses east of Paris Road at
14 Q. Okay. I mean -- would you prefer I 14 Locations 5 and C was 8 to 10 feet of water.
15 use 7:00 or 7:30? 15 Right?
16 A. Use whatever you want. 16 Did you ever determine what the water
17 Q. Anytime between 7:00 and 7:30 is good. 17 depths were for Locations 7, 8, 9 and 10 on
18 A. I said what I found in here, so. 18 Figure 7, Page 17 of your report? If you
19 Q. That's fine. I'm going to pick the 19 did --
20 mid point, and if you think I'm wrong please 20 A. The water depths?
21 correct me. 21 Q. Yeah.
22 And then the only other event that you 22 A. No, I did not.
23 give a time for in your report that I can see, 23 Q. But if we use the color coding, if you
24 and if you think of anything else please point 24 will, of your animation, and the color's the
25 it out to me, but you say at 9:30 a.m. houses 25 same dark blue as it is everywhere else, then
Page 122 Page 124
31 (Pages 121 to 124)

1 the water depths would be pretty close to the 1 Q. We broke for lunch when was I asking
2 same. 2 you about your other considerations of the
3 A. Um -- yes, I guess so. 3 Industrial Canal, the two options. I was going
4 Q. All right. Do you know of anything 4 to ask you about it. I hadn't started yet.
5 else, any other significant events on the time 5 But before I do, let me ask you this: In
6 line that we started at 3:00 a.m. and we just 6 preparation for the deposition, I asked you at
7 went to 2:45 p.m., any other references to 7 the outset the things you had read or reviewed
8 specific events in time? 8 in preparing for the depo, and you told me you
9 MS. GREIF: 9 had reviewed portions of Westerink, Ebersole
10 Objection. 10 and Resio, and maybe one plaintiff deposition,
11 A. Um -- I'm not sure what you're asking. 11 Vrijling -- Professor Vrijling. Did you
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 12 examine any other reports of the plaintiffs'
13 Q. It's a catchall question. If you know 13 experts in preparation of your -- in getting
14 of any other significant events in time, it's 14 prepared for this deposition?
15 not a trick question, but tell me about it and 15 A. I looked through the reports prepared
16 we'll talk about it, but otherwise -- 16 by K-O-K -- I'm not sure how the pronounce his
17 MS. GREIF: 17 name. But that was the one that focused on the
18 Well, significant in what regard? 18 interior drainage. I looked through that one.
19 MR. STEVENS: 19 Q. All right. And let me ask you this:
20 Well, it was significant enough 20 In preparation of your report, the December 18,
21 to be mentioned in the report, such as 21 2008 report that you prepared for the DOJ
22 the north breach, the south breach, 22 expressing your expert opinions, did you review
23 the overtopping of the floodwalls, the 23 the plaintiffs' experts' reports prior to
24 you know, first flow through a break, 24 issuing this report of your own?
25 any of those kind of things. 25 A. I skimmed through some of them.
Page 125 Page 127
1 A. Yeah. When I thought was significant 1 Q. Okay.

2 I put in the report. 2 A. I don't remember all -- which ones
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 3 exactly, but I did review some of them. Or
4 Q. Okay. Very good. Now, the peak storm 4 skimmed through some of them.
5 surge occurred, I think you agree, everybody 5 Q. And do you have any specific
6 sort of agrees is between 7:00 and 9:00 a.m. 6 recollection of which ones you would have
7 Is that -- 7 skimmed through in preparing Exhibit Number 2,
8 A. That's what I recall. I'd have to 8 your report?
9 refer to those surge hydrographs to -- 9 A. Um -- there was one that was authored
10 Q. Okay. 10 by Vrijling and one authored by I think his
11 A. -- get it more accurately. 11 name was Paul Kemp. I think that was his name.
12 Q. And this would probably be a pretty 12 Q. Uh-huh. And have you done --
13 good spot to take a break. We'll come back, 13 A. That's probably the only two.
14 we'll talk about you then went and compared -- 14 Q. Was the review of Vrijling and Kemp 's
15 the next thing you did was you compared two 15 reports, and you said you skimmed through them,
16 different scenarios in the Industrial Canal, 16 you didn't study them, were those things
17 one with the north breach only and the other 17 necessary for you to prepare your own report?
18 with no breaches, correct? I call it the 1 or 18 A. Um -- no, they weren't.
19 none. 19 Q. Okay. And in your report, your
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 30-page report, approximately thirty pages, I
21 Q. All right. And that will be a good 21 think thirty is the beginning of your
22 spot for us to come back to when we return. 22 references, the report itself is twenty-seven
23 How about that? 23 pages, there's no reference to either Paul
24 (Lunch break.) 24 Kemp 's report or his work or Professor
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 25 Vrijling 's report; am I correct?
Page 126 Page 128
32 (Pages 125 to 128)

1 A. That is correct. 1 A. The levels within the basin are

2 Q. Okay. I'm going to get to the 2 dependent on how much volume comes into the
3 Industrial Canal scenarios in a second, but let 3 basin from the surge, and if the volume is less
4 me ask you this: In terms of surge data, you 4 you could have less water levels in the basin.
5 relied on surge data provided to you by 5 Q. And so fifteen feet of surge would
6 Dr. Westerink, correct? 6 generate less water volumes in the basin
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 than -- which would generate lower levels,
8 Q. All right. How, if at all, does 8 fifteen feet or seventeen feet or storm surge?
9 maximum surge -- maximum storm surge affect 9 A. Um -- well, just the change in maximum
10 your modeling or your conclusions in this case? 10 wouldn't -- wouldn't necessary change the
11 A. What do you mean by maximum storm 11 volume.
12 surge. 12 Q. Okay.
13 Q. Let me ask you to assume for the sake 13 A. So but the fifteen foot could,
14 of discussion here that storm surge, maximum 14 depending on what the rest of the surge
15 storm surge was fifteen feet. Okay? As 15 hydrograph looks like.
16 opposed to seventeen feet. It's one or the 16 Q. Let me ask you this: We also talked a
17 other, fifteen or seventeen feet. Would it 17 little bit about the terrain data inside the
18 make a difference in the outcome of your 18 central wetlands unit. Does it make a
19 modeling or any of the conclusions you reached 19 difference in your results for how deep the
20 in this case if the storm surge was seventeen 20 water levels were in the St. Bernard basin if
21 instead of fifteen feet? 21 the entire central wetlands unit was -- had
22 A. Yes, there could be a difference. 22 trees or no trees?
23 Q. And what would the difference be? 23 A. I don't know that.
24 A. Um -- I don't know. I mean, I don't 24 Q. You don't know what effect it would
25 know -- I don't know -- to quantify it I don't 25 have.
Page 129 Page 131
1 know. 1 A. I don't know what effect it would

2 Q. Exactly. And there we go again, 2 have.
3 engineers and lawyers trying to interface is I 3 Q. You don't know if it would affect it
4 guess the popular word. I'm not asking you to 4 up or down or at all.
5 quantify it. What effect would it have? Would 5 A. No, sir, I don't know that.
6 it have the effect of lowering the flood levels 6 Q. Now, we were going to talk about the
7 that you observed, raising the flood levels you 7 comparison of one or none. Your ultimate
8 observed, changing the time intervals? What 8 opinion, am I correct, that whether it was only
9 effect would seventeen feet of surge have over 9 the north breach or whether there was no breach
10 fifteen feet? 10 in the Industrial Canal, water levels in the
11 A. The levels in the basin are affected 11 Lower Ninth Ward would remain the same, they
12 by the complete surge hydrograph, not just the 12 would still have been I think it was 10.9 feet
13 maximum. 13 in either case.
15 A. But if you're referring -- you're 15 Q. And why is that?
16 referring to just the maximum, it would have an 16 A. Because the 10.9 feet is the maximum
17 effect and it could lower the levels. But it 17 water surface that we modeled from the storm,
18 may not, depending on what the complete surge 18 and it was affected primarily by the amount of
19 hydrograph looks like. 19 water that came through the levees along the
20 Q. Okay. New, assuming a two-foot 20 MRGO.
21 difference in maximum storm surge, seventeen 21 Q. Okay. With the absence of the north
22 feet instead of fifteen feet, you said it could 22 breach. Or is that in both -- with the north
23 lower the levels; is that right. 23 breach and the water that came over the levee?
24 A. Yes. 24 A. Either one.
25 Q. How is that? 25 Q. Okay. In your simulation, or in your
Page 130 Page 132
33 (Pages 129 to 132)

1 animation that we've gone through a couple of 1 Yes.

2 times now, if we look at the 6:30 slide there's 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 a substantial amount of water in the Lower 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
4 Ninth, and I think we established that at that 4 Q. Now this says breaches plural, but
5 point the north breach is still flowing and the 5 you're really only comparing no breach to one
6 south breach has not occurred yet. Right? 6 breach, right?
7 There's overtopping of the MRGO, the 7 A. I'm also comparing -- no, I'm
8 entire reach of the MRGO from surge 8 comparing -- the U.S. scenario has both
9 overtopping, but you would agree that all the 9 breaches. So that's in that column, as well.
10 water shown in that 6:30 slide would be water 10 Q. Okay. So you compare with one breach
11 entering the Lower Ninth Ward from the 11 and with two breaches, right? With the north
12 Industrial Canal through the north breach. 12 breach and the south breach, the two right
13 South breach didn't happen until 7:15. 13 columns?
14 A. Um -- no. 14 A. Um -- yeah. The center column is
15 Q. Okay. Where is that water coming 15 without the IHNC south breach.
16 from? 16 Q. So it's north only.
17 A. There is also water that could be 17 A. Yes, sir.
18 coming in over the levee -- over the floodwall 18 Q. Okay.
19 along IHNC, because there was overtopping of 19 A. And the last column is without south
20 that, as well. 20 or the north breach.
21 Q. Do you have anything in your report or 21 Q. So it's south only -- I mean, sorry,
22 can you tell me from what you have here when 22 north only or none. True?
23 water first started overtopping the floodwall 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 that goes across the top of the Lower Ninth 24 Q. The third -- the column on the far
25 Ward? 25 right is no breaches or none, so you're
Page 133 Page 135
1 A. No, I don't have that in the report. 1 comparing one or none in those two columns.
2 Q. Can you tell me from looking at these 2 One breach or no breach.
3 images? 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 A. I can't tell familiar looking at these 4 Q. Right? And then in the first one, in
5 images. 5 the U.S. Scenario 1 you're assuming both
6 Q. What would you have to do to figure 6 breaches.
7 that out? 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. Go into the model and look at that 8 Q. Okay. And of course if you look at
9 specific area. 9 the chart they're all pretty much the same.
10 Q. Can you tell me this: In a general 10 Ultimately, the water levels in the Lower Ninth
11 way, which happened first, the north breach at 11 Ward would have been roughly eleven feet give
12 3:50 a.m. or overtopping of the floodwalls 12 or take .1 or .2.
13 above the Lower Ninth Ward? 13 A. Yes, our models, what we modeled is
14 A. I don't think I can answer that right 14 10.9 feet rounded up.
15 now. 15 Q. But you conclude, below that table,
16 Q. Okay. 16 that while the IHNC breaches caused a rapid
17 A. I can't answer that. 17 rise in water levels in the Lower Ninth Ward
18 Q. And you have not analyzed that. 18 the maximum water surface elevation was
19 A. No, I haven't looked at that 19 primarily influenced by the water from the
20 specifically, no. 20 breaches along the MRGO.
21 Q. Let's find your chart in your report 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 where you compare I call it 1 or 9, is that on 22 Q. All right. Now, we defined early on,
23 Page 21, a comparison of maximum water surface 23 at the outset of your deposition, that a breach
24 elevation with and without IHNC breaches? 24 meant a loss of elevation of the crest of
25 MS. GREIF: 25 either a levee or a floodwall.
Page 134 Page 136
34 (Pages 133 to 136)

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 the water levels in the Lower Ninth Ward would
2 Q. Does the floodwall above the Lower 2 have been the same, roughly eleven feet.
3 Ninth Ward in your estimation constitute a 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 breach based on your definition? 4 Q. 10.9 to 11.2 I think was -- every
5 A. What do you mean above the -- 5 number in that table fit within those numbers
6 Q. Across the top of the Lower Ninth 6 right?
7 Ward, the floodwall -- is that the GIWW there? 7 A. Yes, sir. 10.9.
8 (Indicating.) 8 Q. Would be the lowest, and 11.2 is the
9 A. Would you explain which floodwall 9 highest. True?
10 you're talking about again, or show me? 10 A. Where were you talking about?
11 Q. When the water is coming in -- 11 Q. Isn't there a 11.2 in your table? Oh,
12 A. Here you go. 12 it was 11.3, I'm sorry. Okay. You're in
13 Q. Here. This is the Lower Ninth Ward; 13 Number 8. Let's go back to location -- 10.9
14 correct? 14 all way across.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. All right. This -- what is -- what 16 Q. So it's the same all the way across.
17 protects the top of the Lower Ninth Ward? 17 A. Yes, sir. For the Lower Ninth Ward.
18 A. Um -- that's part of the 40 arpent 18 Q. For the Lower Ninth Ward. I wasn't
19 levee. 19 looking at the data carefully.
20 Q. Okay. The 40 arpent levee. That 40 20 So your opinion is that even without
21 arpent levee, did it breach? 21 the breaches the water would have come over the
22 A. Um -- we didn't have any evidence that 22 top of the 40 Arpent Canal. Right? And that
23 it breached. We're not aware of any evidence 23 overtopping is what type of overtopping in your
24 that it breached. 24 definitions, is it surge overtopping or wave
25 Q. So any water that came into the Lower 25 overtopping?
Page 137 Page 139
1 Ninth Ward over the 40 arpent levee was 1 A. I don't know -- from the central
2 overtopping, correct? 2 wetlands which it would be, um -- I just
3 A. Um -- 3 considered overtopping.
4 Q. Not breach. 4 Q. Okay. Because you gave definitions
5 A. Yes, sir. That's our understanding. 5 early on of two types of overtopping, wave
6 Q. From that side. The breach was on the 6 and/or surge.
7 Industrial Canal side. 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. But are you telling me that that only
9 Q. All right. And the -- and I asked you 9 applies to the way the water came in from
10 earlier, you never calculated which exactly 10 outside of the Chalmette levee?
11 happened first or which contributed how much, 11 A. Yes, sir. From our modeling, the way
12 the water from the Industrial Canal or water 12 this is modeled, that's the way it's set up,
13 from I guess it came from the central wetlands 13 that way.
14 unit basin over the 40 arpent canal. I mean 14 Q. And then once it got into the central
15 over the 40 arpent levee. 15 wetlands unit, the overtopping of the 40 arpent
16 A. Would you rephrase the question? I 16 levee, you don't distinguish between wave or
17 don't understand. 17 surge.
18 Q. You never separated this water to 18 A. No, sir.
19 determine which portion of it came from 19 Q. It's just overtopping.
20 overtopping of the 40 arpent levee and which 20 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
21 portion came through the breach or breaches on 21 Q. You allocated water by sources in one
22 the Industrial Canal. 22 of your charts, and let me see if I can find
23 A. No, sir, we didn't. 23 that chart for you. What percentage came from
24 Q. But ultimately you concluded that 24 rainfall, what percentage came from wave
25 without either breach on the Industrial Canal 25 overtopping and surge overtopping and breaches.
Page 138 Page 140
35 (Pages 137 to 140)

1 Can I take it by the way you defined wave and 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 surge overtopping you're talking only about 2 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the central
3 water that entered the central wetlands unit, 3 wetlands unit, you described earlier that -- or
4 or are you also talking about water that 4 earlier in your report, that there were 77
5 entered St. Bernard Parish, or are you only 5 square miles in this whole area between the
6 talking about water that entered the 6 central wetlands unit and the St. Bernard
7 St. Bernard Parish? 7 basin? Or is that all in the St. Bernard
8 A. Um -- this volume in this chart is all 8 basin?
9 the water that entered into the St. Bernard 9 A. The 77 square miles is the entire
10 basin. 10 basin.
11 Q. Okay. And it's in acre feet as 11 Q. The basin. It's the central wetlands
12 opposed to cubic feet or square feet, right? 12 unit and the St. Bernard basin together.
13 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 13 A. I'm defining the St. Bernard basin as
14 Q. Acre feet is an acre by one foot 14 everything contained within the Chalmette
15 depth, true? 15 levee, the Chalmette Extension and the
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 Mississippi River levee.
17 Q. All right. So how -- is there a 17 Q. Okay. All right.
18 conversion from acre feet to cubic feet? 18 A. That's what I'm defining as the
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 St. Bernard basin.
20 Q. And do you know, what is the 20 Q. Well, we probably had a couple of
21 conversion formula? 21 miscues because I've been calling things
22 A. It's 43,560 square feet in an acre. 22 outside, or between the 40 arpent levee and the
23 Q. In an acre foot, or just in an acre? 23 Mississippi River levee as the St. Bernard
24 A. In an acre. 24 basin, and that's not correct.
25 Q. All right. And then how many in an 25 A. Yeah. Not consistent with my report.
Page 141 Page 143
1 acre foot? 1 Q. Because the St. Bernard basin is

2 A. Um -- well, an acre is an area. Acre 2 everything including the wetlands.
3 foot is a volume. So there's 43,560 square 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 feet in one acre. 4 Q. All right. Well, knowing that we may
5 Q. Right. Now, isn't square feet a 5 have to fix a couple of things here. But the
6 volume? No, square feet -- 6 77 square miles is all of it. Of it, 36 square
7 A. Square feet is an area also. 7 miles is developed, what you call.
8 Q. All right. Let me switch it to cubic 8 A. Yes.
9 feet. That's a volume. 9 Q. All right. Now, in terms of the
10 A. Okay. 10 sources of the water, your opinion is that
11 Q. All right? What is the formula for 11 rainfall accounted for 8 percent of the
12 converting acre feet to cubic feet? 12 rainfall. I mean 8 percent of the water we
13 A. Um -- I would, um -- multiply acre 13 see. Right?
14 feet by 43,560 to get cubic feet. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. To get cubic feet. All right. So at 15 Q. All right. And that is in the entire
16 the bottom, that total 420,180-acre feet we 16 St. Bernard basin, central wetlands unit and
17 would multiply times 43,560 to get cubic feet? 17 the developed area outside.
19 Q. All right. I'm not even going to 19 Q. All right. 4 percent came from wave
20 attempt to do that. Not even with a 20 overtopping.
21 calculator. 21 A. Yes.
22 And so if we do that, that would tell 22 Q. And 6 percent from surge overtopping.
23 us how many cubic feet of water at maximum 23 You with me?
24 water depth, according to your chart, there was 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 in the St. Bernard basin. 25 Q. That's a total of 10 percent between
Page 142 Page 144
36 (Pages 141 to 144)

1 surge and wave combined. 10 percent of the 1 Mississippi River levee?

2 water that ended up in this dark blue shaded 2 A. What do you mean by recharge?
3 area, which would be the composite of all your 3 Q. Well, if the bathtub is full and you
4 half-hour incremental -- is it on the last 4 turn the water off, it stops overflowing. If
5 slide? No, it's the next chart after that, 5 it continues -- for it to continue overflowing,
6 isn't it? Let me just make sure. Your last 6 it has to have more water coming in, correct?
7 slide is at 1300. Is your Figure 8K in your 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 report? 8 Q. All right. Once the breaches
9 A. Yes. 9 occurred, you told us they continued to flow
10 Q. The one before it would be 1300, am I 10 until the water was gone. So it either flowed
11 right? 11 in or it flowed out. Is that true?
12 A. Well, there's not really one before it 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 on 8K. This is the maximum water depths. 13 Q. In your parlance, flow is either
14 Q. All right. So Figure 8K in your 14 direction, you didn't give it a direction here.
15 report is the maximum water depths. 15 Right?
16 A. Yes. 16 A. Correct.
17 Q. All right. At that point in time, 17 Q. All right. You're educating me. I
18 this chart is telling us that 8 percent of that 18 don't know if it helps you any.
19 water came from rainfall, 4 percent came from 19 Did you in any way analyze or attempt
20 wave overtopping and 6 from surge overtopping. 20 to analyze what happened in the Industrial
21 Right? 21 Canal area, the water levels in the Industrial
22 A. Yes. 22 Canal area, during the four hours or so between
23 Q. All right. And 82 percent came from 23 3:50 a.m. when the north breach occurred and
24 breaches. 24 7:15 a.m. when the south breach occurred?
25 A. Yes. 25 MS. GREIF:
Page 145 Page 147
1 Q. You said earlier you didn't calculate 1 Objection.

2 or consider wave or surge overtopping or any 2 A. What do you mean by attempt to
3 particular type of overtopping in the developed 3 analyze?
4 portion of the St. Bernard basin. 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
5 A. What's the question? 5 Q. Did the water levels in the Industrial
6 Q. Then if you didn't calculate which 6 Canal change once the north breach occurred?
7 portion was wave overtopping or surge 7 A. Yes.
8 overtopping, is your chart just telling us that 8 Q. And did you quantify that in some way?
9 that's how it got into the central wetlands 9 A. Yes.
10 unit, the undeveloped portion of the 10 Q. All right. Show me.
11 St. Bernard basin? 11 A. It would be on Page 22, Figure 9A.
12 A. Um -- the wave and surge overtopping 12 Q. Okay. Location 1, stage hydrograph.
13 is what entered the St. Bernard basin anywhere 13 Right?
14 around the system into the St. Bernard basin. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. So it doesn't separate it between what 15 Q. All right. The north breach occurs at
16 got into the wetlands unit and how much of it 16 7:15. What was the water level I would say
17 ultimately overtopped the 40 Arpent levee. You 17 moments before the north breach?
18 don't distinguish between wave or surge 18 A. Um -- well, looking at Figure 9A, and
19 overtopping once it gets in. 19 the water level appears -- let's see. Between
20 A. That is correct. 20 -6 and -7 feet, at Location 1.
21 Q. All right. Once the central wetlands 21 Q. Okay. Location 1 being depicted on
22 unit is full and it starts overtopping the 40 22 Figure 7?
23 Arpent levee, can you tell us, does it have to 23 A. Yes.
24 recharge to continue putting water into the 24 Q. All right. We'll mark as Exhibit
25 area between the 40 Arpent levee and the 25 Number 4 a copy of your Figure 7 for your
Page 146 Page 148
37 (Pages 145 to 148)

1 deposition. And in Figure 7 you're saying that 1 A. Um -- I don't know what the elevation
2 the water level is between -6 and -7 feet in 2 is at that location.
3 the Industrial Canal, right? 3 Q. So you can't tell us what the surface
4 (Exhibit 4 was marked for 4 water level is at that time.
5 identification and is attached hereto.) 5 A. Yes, this is the water surface
6 A. No. 6 elevation at that time.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 7 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to translate
8 Q. I'm a little confused. My question 8 that to the rale world. And in the real world,
9 was what was the water level in the canal? 9 if a person is walking the neighborhood at
10 A. Water level in the canal? 10 3:30 a.m., twenty minutes before the breach, is
11 Q. Yeah. 11 he standing in water?
12 A. Um -- I don't know. 12 A. Yes. He'd be standing in water.
13 Q. Location 1 is in the Lower Ninth Ward, 13 Q. Do you know how much water?
14 it's not in the water, it's in the 14 A. No.
15 neighborhood. That's in Arabi somewhere. 15 Q. Would it be ankle deep, knee deep,
16 A. Yes. Location 1 is in the northern 16 over his head?
17 part of the Lower Ninth. 17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. And at the time of the north 18 Q. You have no idea.
19 breach at 3:50 a.m. -- is that the time? Is 19 A. I don't know.
20 there water in the lower Ninth Ward already 20 Q. All right. Then the breach occurs at
21 before the lower breach occurs? I'm sorry. 21 3:50 a.m. And that's the sudden spike from the
22 Before the north breach occurs? 22 lower left corner of Figure 9A toward the top
23 A. Yes, there's water in the Lower Ninth 23 of the page, correct? It goes from -6 or 7 to
24 Ward before the north breach occurs. 24 +10.
25 Q. And you're showing that on Table 9A 25 A. Yes. The water rises quickly in that
Page 149 Page 151
1 here? 1 time frame.

2 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what is the time duration from the
3 Q. What time is that? Is that -- I can't 3 time it goes from -6 to +10? That's a sixteen
4 read the time. That's 1800 hours on 4 foot difference; correct?
5 August 28th, the day before? Where is the 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 water you're referring to? 6 Q. All right. What time duration did
7 A. What was your question again? 7 that take?
8 Q. I want to know -- I was asking about 8 A. Let's see. Looked to be about four
9 water depth in the canal itself before the 9 hours?
10 breach occurred. Do you know? 10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Don't know. 11 A. Maybe five -- four to five hours.
12 Q. Okay. You're show me a table that 12 Q. And when it reached the ten foot mark
13 shows what the water level was in the 13 at this, right where you have your surge from
14 neighborhood in the Lower Ninth Ward at 14 MRGO arrived, you see that, just to the left of
15 Location Number 1 on Figure 7, right? How much 15 that, that little peak?
16 water was there? Let's go where you're going. 16 A. Yes, sir, I see it.
17 A. Before the north breach occurred, at 17 Q. All right. What time is it? What
18 Location 1 the water was in the -- at Location 18 time does that peak occur?
19 1 it was between -6 and -7 feet. 19 A. Looks to be around between 7:00 and
20 Q. So it was down like in the ground? 20 9:00 a.m.
21 A. No, sir. 21 Q. That's a pretty big window.
22 Q. It was -6 or -7 feet below sea level. 22 A. Yeah. It's probably more like 8:00
23 A. Yes. 23 a.m. 8:00 to 9:00 a.m.
24 Q. So how much water is that to a 24 Q. Because at that point both breaches
25 layperson who's walking the streets? 25 have occurred, north and south. Right?
Page 150 Page 152
38 (Pages 149 to 152)

1 A. Yes. 1 your model to water that came through breaches.

2 Q. Okay. At the time the south breach 2 Flowed through breaches would be the
3 occurred the water level in the Lower Ninth 3 engineering way to say it.
4 Ward, before the south breach, was +4? 4 A. Uh-huh.
5 A. Probably closer to 3. 5 Q. Right?
6 Q. Okay. So +3. Then the south breach 6 A. Yes.
7 occurs and it goes to +10. 7 Q. All right. So if 82 percent of the
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 water came through the breaches, then we would
9 Q. Okay. In your chart on Page 20, below 9 multiply that number, 420,180-acre feet by
10 Figure 8K, that chart doesn't really have a 10 82 percent and that would tell us the volume of
11 number, it's not given a figure or a table 11 water that flowed into the St. Bernard basin
12 number, but the I call it allocation between 12 because of the breaches.
13 rainfall, wave overtopping, surge overtopping 13 A. Yes. That's correct.
14 and breaches, the 420,180-acre feet, however 14 Q. Now, if we wanted to then separate
15 many millions or billions that would convert to 15 between the developed and the undeveloped
16 cubic feet, that 82 percent that you attribute 16 portions, we're not able to do that from your
17 to breaches, the breaches you're referring to 17 model, can we?
18 are the eleven breaches along the MRGO, 18 A. Not from what's in the report, no.
19 correct? 19 Q. What you have given us is all the
20 A. Those and the ones at IHNC. 20 water for the entire area shaded in blue on
21 Q. And the IHNC breaches. So those 21 Figure 8.
22 eleven plus the north and south breach. 22 A. (Nods affirmatively.)
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. If we wanted to separate out how much
24 Q. All right. 82 percent of the water in 24 water by volume was in what I call St. Bernard
25 the St. Bernard basin came from breaches. And 25 Parish, the developed portion of the parish
Page 153 Page 155
1 would you agree that all the breaches had been 1 between the 40 Arpent levee and the Mississippi
2 formed by roughly seven o'clock -- 7:15 was the 2 River levee, how would we do that?
3 south breach at north Claiborne Avenue? 3 A. How would we separate --
4 A. What do you mean by formed? 4 Q. Yeah. How would we separate that?
5 Q. Well, had they reached -- had the 5 A. The HEC-RAS model is divided up into
6 breaches occurred? 6 subbasins within the St. Bernard basin.
7 A. They had initiated by then. 7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. GREIF: 8 A. And, um -- the HEC-RAS model reports
9 Objection. 9 the maximum volume at the maximum water depth
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 10 for each of the subbasins, so that could be
11 Q. They had all initiated by 7:00, 7:15 11 calculated from, or pulled out of the HEC-RAS
12 in the a.m., right? And then you said it took 12 model.
13 about an hour, hour and a half for them to 13 Q. All right. I'm going to mark for
14 reach maximum grade is that the word you gave 14 identification as Exhibit Number 5 a copy of
15 me? 15 Fitzgerald Figure Number 5 found on Page 12 of
16 A. Bottom elevation. 16 your report. Are these the subbasins that
17 Q. Maximum bottom elevation. So by 8:30, 17 you're referring to?
18 nine o'clock, maximum bottom elevation has 18 (Exhibit 5 was marked for
19 occurred, and 82 percent of the water we see in 19 identification and is attached hereto.)
20 Figure 8K of your report came through those 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 breaches. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
22 A. Would you rephrase the question? 22 Q. Crudely stated, subbasin 42 and 43 are
23 Q. All right. I'm trying to get a time 23 the undeveloped portions of the St. Bernard
24 frame and a volume. Okay? And a percentage of 24 basin, and everything else is the developed
25 allocation. You allocate 82 percent based on 25 portion, if you will.
Page 154 Page 156
39 (Pages 153 to 156)

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 breach was 7:00 a.m. Right? If it took an

2 Q. All right. In your report, I touched 2 hour to an hour and a half for them to reach
3 on this earlier, I never really got it nailed 3 maximum bottom elevation we're talking 8:00 or
4 down, you indicate that in the entire 4 8:30 a.m.
5 St. Bernard basin there were roughly 77 square 5 A. Yes. By 8:30 they would be at their
6 miles. Right? 6 maximum bottom elevation.
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. And if maximum storm surge
8 Q. But in the developed portion of the 8 didn't occur until sometime around nine
9 basin, and you can go the Page 5 where you 9 o'clock, would that influence in any way the
10 describe the St. Bernard basin, um -- the 10 outcome of your model?
11 developed area between the Mississippi River 11 A. I don't think so.
12 and the 40 Arpent levee is about 31 square 12 Q. All right. Is it a fair assessment on
13 miles. Right? 13 my part to say that your model basically
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 determines how deal deep the water got in the
15 Q. All right. So if we just crudely, as 15 St. Bernard basin by the end of the day on
16 we get the total of 420,000 acre feet, we 16 August 29, 2005?
17 could convert that to cubic feet later, we 17 A. Yes.
18 could -- whatever percentage 31 is of 77 square 18 Q. I mean, your opinion ultimately is, or
19 miles, would that be sort of a crude way to 19 your conclusion is, it would have gotten to
20 back into it? Give us some idea about volume? 20 that depth with or without the Industrial Canal
21 A. Um -- yes, it would be a crude way. 21 breaches, right?
22 Q. Okay. Is there a better way to get a 22 A. What depth?
23 precise answer? 23 Q. The depths that you report for each of
24 A. Um -- I would go to the model and look 24 the subbasins. What page are you on there?
25 at each one of these subbasins and add them up. 25 A. Page 21.
Page 157 Page 159
1 Q. All right. Has anyone asked you to 1 Q. Page 21. Those depths would have
2 ever do that, to analyze that? 2 occurred -- Location 1 would have gotten to
3 A. No, sir. 3 10.9 feet, Location 2, all way through, they
4 Q. Now, the source of these subbasins, 4 would have gotten to those depths give or take
5 according to the legend, if you will, on your 5 a tenth depending on which one of the scenarios
6 Figure 5, says it came from IPET, Volume 6. 6 you follow. Right? A tenth of a foot is
7 Right? 7 1.2 inches, true?
9 Q. Sections 4 and 5. Also known as 9 Q. And in the overall scheme of things,
10 Figure 4.1 of IPET. 10 in a hurricane, 1.2 inches of ultimate depth
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 doesn't make a whole lot of difference, does
12 Q. All right. So this information comes 12 it?
13 directly from the IPET report. 13 A. It depends.
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. It could. But in a nutshell,
15 Q. All right. As of the time the 15 your report concludes that those depths would
16 breaches had reached maximum bottom 16 have occurred regardless of how it got there,
17 elevation -- right? What was the status of 17 whether the source was the IHNC or breaches in
18 peak storm surge? 18 the MRGO.
19 A. I don't know. 19 A. Yes. Would reach these depths.
20 Q. Okay. If we assume that the breaches 20 Q. Now, on Page 7 of your report, at the
21 reached maximum bottom elevation somewhere 21 bottom paragraph, after you talk about all the
22 between 7:00, 7:30, eight o'clock -- it took an 22 things you looked at and the other reports that
23 hour and a half or so for them to fully develop 23 are sort of on the topic, IPET, Team Louisiana,
24 once they were triggered, right? And you told 24 ILIT, et cetera, at the bottom you talk about
25 us earlier that the initial flow through a 25 the Civiltech report. And they developed a
Page 158 Page 160
40 (Pages 157 to 160)

1 time line of flooding and sources of 1 Q. And you don't record here what you
2 floodwaters in the Lower Ninth Ward in 2 concluded about it, you simply say you compared
3 St. Bernard Parish. In addition to using 3 it. But what did you find?
4 information from the IPET and Team Louisiana 4 A. I found that they matched, you know,
5 reports, they collected additional eyewitness 5 closely relative to -- relative to two
6 information and performed flood simulations 6 different analysis performed, and they match,
7 using the SOBEK computer model to develop a 7 you know, fairly well, so.
8 realistic flood time line. And then you say, I 8 Q. And were you able to determine from
9 compared the Civiltech time line and water 9 the Civiltech report what was the source of the
10 surface elevations to the results of this 10 data they entered into their model?
11 report. 11 A. I was more interested in their
12 Where did you do that? Is that in 12 additional eyewitness accounts that they came
13 your report? 13 up with.
14 A. It's not in the report. 14 Q. Okay.
15 Q. Okay. How did you compare it? 15 A. That's what I was looking at.
16 A. I looked at the Civiltech report to 16 Q. All right. On Page 8 of your report
17 see what data they'd come up with and just 17 you indicate that HEC-RAS was developed by the
18 visually looked at it compared to ours. 18 United States Army Corps of Engineers.
19 Q. And who is Civiltech? 19 A. Correct.
20 A. It's a, um -- engineering company. 20 Q. And that the HEC-HMS, which is
21 Q. And who retained them or what caused 21 hydrologic modeling system -- what does HMS
22 them the conduct what they titled Analysis of 22 stand for?
23 Flooding of the Lower Ninth in St. Bernard, 23 A. Hydrologic modeling system. That's
24 Hurricane Katrina, August 2005? 24 correct.
25 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Those two things, the HEC-RAS and the
Page 161 Page 163
1 Q. It's dated June 27th, 2008, the report 1 HEC-HMS were used to convert rainfall into
2 itself. Right? 2 runoff or flow hydrographs. And the or is O-R,
3 A. Yes. Oh, in the paragraph above it 3 right?
4 explains, um -- 4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Oh, it's an expert report prepared by 5 Q. That's one or the other. Which one
6 the defendants in the barge case. I see it. 6 did you do here?
7 A. Yeah. 7 A. The or was a different way to refer to
8 Q. All right. So you were provided with 8 rainfall and to runoff. It's another way to
9 that report? How did you come to have 9 say rainfall and runoff. Just a different way
10 possession of that report? 10 to say it. It wasn't one or the other, just
11 A. I got that report from the Department 11 how you refer to it.
12 of Justice. 12 Q. So when your report reads, quote,
13 Q. Okay. And did you get it shortly 13 rainfall into runoff or flow hydrographs, I'm
14 after June 27, '08? 14 still confused, did you use one or did you use
15 A. I don't remember when I got it. 15 them both?
16 Q. All right. What methodology, if you 16 A. It's a reference -- it's the process
17 will, did you follow to compare your time line 17 or the analysis -- it's referring to the same
18 and water surface elevations to the time line 18 process or analysis.
19 and water surface elevations determined by 19 Q. I got you. Rainfall into runoff is
20 Civiltech? 20 the same as flow hydrograph.
21 A. I looked at their report. They 21 A. Yes.
22 reported -- did some verbal descriptions of the 22 Q. All right. Thank you. You could have
23 timing and elevations, I believe, and looked at 23 said rainfall into runoff a/k/a flow
24 our results to see how they compared in terms 24 hydrograph.
25 of elevations versus times. 25 A. Yes.
Page 162 Page 164
41 (Pages 161 to 164)

1 Q. All right. Now I understand. I told 1 A. No, sir, there wasn't.

2 you I catch on eventually. 2 Q. So it couldn't flow back out the
3 Now, did you in any way study -- when 3 breaches if there were none.
4 you studied water flow did you study the 4 A. That's correct.
5 direction that the water came from, anything 5 Q. All right. When the water receded,
6 like that? 6 how did it get out of the central wetlands
7 A. Um -- are you referring to context 7 unit?
8 here with the HMS? 8 A. Out through the breaches.
9 Q. Yes. Because you studied flow 9 Q. There were lots of breaches along the
10 hydrographs. 10 MRGO, over virtually the entire reach between
11 A. No, I did not study the direction. 11 Bayou Bienvenue and Bayou Dupre, right?
12 Q. All right. Did it matter to you what 12 A. Correct. And as the developed area
13 direction it came from? 13 receded, it flowed over the 40 Arpent and out
14 A. No. 14 the breaches as well while the water was high
15 Q. Is it fair to say that the only thing 15 enough.
16 that really mattered to you was how it got into 16 Q. True. Right. Until it got below --
17 the basin and how it got out? Or better yet, 17 what is the level of the 40 Arpent canal? I
18 the only thing that really mattered to you was 18 keep saying canal. 4 Arpent levee.
19 that it got into the basin. 19 A. The range is about six to ten feet.
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. So once the water receded below
21 Q. Did you study how it got out? 21 six to ten feet, then they had to pump it out?
22 A. No, sir. 22 A. That's what I --
23 Q. Would it matter? 23 Q. Page 8. You didn't -- it was on the
24 MS. GREIF: 24 disk that you provided with the sort of
25 Objection. 25 underlying data to your report, but it's not --
Page 165 Page 167
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 1 I don't see -- and correct me if I'm wrong. I

2 Q. You said it continued to flow until it 2 don't see in your report where you include the
3 was gone; right? The water continued the flow 3 levee and floodwall crest profiles. That's not
4 through the breaches until it was gone. 4 in your report itself.
5 A. That's correct. 5 A. No, it's not.
6 Q. How did the water get out? 6 Q. Okay.
7 A. How did it get out? 7 (Brief recess.)
8 Q. Let's say Lower Ninth Ward. How did 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
9 the water eventually get out of the Lower Ninth 9 Q. The levee and floodwall crest profiles
10 Ward? 10 that are attached on your CD, did you create
11 A. Part of it flowed out through the 11 those or did you adopt those from someone else?
12 breaches. 12 A. We started with the profile
13 Q. Uh-huh. 13 information from the IPET model, and that was
14 A. And I believe they pumped the rest of 14 provided to me by the -- our team at the Corps
15 it out. 15 of Engineers here in New Orleans, and then I
16 Q. All right. What about the rest of 16 made adjustments to those levee profiles and
17 St. Bernard Parish, the developed portion of 17 worked in conjunction with Bruce Ebersole.
18 St. Bernard Parish, how did it get out? 18 Q. Now, you made adjustments to those
19 A. Um -- it flowed out the breaches 19 levee profiles specifically for your report in
20 through the breaches, and I believe they pumped 20 this case?
21 the rest of it out. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Well, the developed portion of 22 Q. All right. But I wanted to ask you to
23 St. Bernard being here, there were no breaches 23 show me, or tell me if you can, what
24 along the 40 Arpent Canal, right? The 40 24 adjustments did you make and why?
25 Arpent levee. 25 A. Okay. You want me to show you?
Page 166 Page 168
42 (Pages 165 to 168)

1 Q. Can you tell me first? Because this 1 8.4 inches of rainfall in the St. Bernard basin
2 is going to take a second to boot up. 2 for what period of time? I didn't gather from
3 A. Okay. Yes, we looked at the profiles 3 your report the duration of that, or the time
4 that were in the IPET model and then looked at 4 span over which 8.4 inches fell.
5 the different sources of information of the 5 A. It was in the 24-hour period.
6 levee crest, a couple of different sources, and 6 Q. On Page 9, under hydrologic analysis,
7 looked to see if it looked reasonable to us, 7 third and fourth paragraphs address the amount
8 both Bruce and I. And some cases we refined 8 of rainfall. It says, the St. Bernard basin
9 and improved the levee crest elevations from 9 received 9 to 12 inches of rainfall over 24
10 the IPET model, based on the data that we had. 10 hours. Okay? The next paragraph says, the
11 MS. GREIF: 11 total volume contributed by rainfall was
12 Can I ask you a question? Are 12 estimated to be 34,320 acre-feet, and then in
13 you pulling up a document on your 13 parens it says 8.4-inch average over the entire
14 disk? Do you want us to just print it 14 basin. Okay?
15 out? 15 A. Yes.
16 MR. STEVENS: 16 Q. So the source of that information,
17 Yeah. Maybe. I got to figure 17 where did you get the Number 8.4 inches of rain
18 out which one it is. 18 in 24 hours?
19 (Off the record.) 19 A. The 8.4 was calculated as the
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 20 average --
21 Q. Pre and post LIDAR crest plots, is 21 Q. Okay.
22 that what you're referring to the? 22 A. -- over -- that volume over the basin
23 A. That's it. Oh. Let me make sure. 23 area.
24 (Off the record.) 24 Q. Okay.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 25 A. The 9 to 12 inches was from
Page 169 Page 171
1 Q. Okay. We talked earlier about 1 meteorological records. That was developed in

2 Exhibit 3, the 30-minute increments, the images 2 the IPET. That was part of the IPET study.
3 that were taken of your animation, and I asked 3 Q. I thought I read in your report that
4 you if there were others available, if I asked 4 that was based on radar analysis. I guess my
5 for additional images could you get those for 5 question is, there are several ways to figure
6 me. Would it just be a matter of dropping them 6 out rainfall, either radar analysis, or did
7 onto a disk like we have here and then we can 7 anybody have rain gauges the actually
8 make our own prints, but can I ask you to put 8 documented or recorded the amount of rainfall?
9 all of them you had modeled or simulated 9 A. In the IPET report, when this was
10 August 28th at noon to August 30th at midnight? 10 developed initially, it's done from the radar.
11 Can I ask -- 11 Q. Okay. There it is on age 9, that
12 MS. GREIF: 12 second paragraph. Rainfall for each subbasin
13 So you're making a request on the 13 was determined using radar rainfall estimates
14 record? 14 from the National Weather Service.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. I'm making a request that you put 16 Q. And radar, that's that color weather
17 those on a disk for us and give it to us. 17 radar stuff that if it's blue it's X amount of
18 A. Every 30 minutes, okay, like we have 18 rainfall, and if it's orange or green or red
19 them? 19 it's a different intensity of rain, correct?
20 MS. GREIF: 20 A. I'm not sure what form it came in to
21 So the request is on the record. 21 the hydrological --
22 MR. STEVENS: 22 Q. I guess my question is, the rainfall,
23 Yeah. Every 30 minutes. 23 to be fair about it, is an estimate, it is not
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 24 a precise measurement.
25 Q. Now, your model assumes that there was 25 A. Yes, sir.
Page 170 Page 172
43 (Pages 169 to 172)

1 Q. And then you averaged estimated 1 A. Yes, from the numerical modeling
2 rainfall throughout the basin to be 8.4 inches 2 standpoint, that's correct.
3 average, right? 3 Q. Okay. Now let me ask you, in layman's
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 terms, when you say that the results of this
5 Q. As between how much rainfall fell in 5 modeling has an error bar equal to or greater
6 the undeveloped central wetlands unit and how 6 than .7, that's seven tenths of 1 percent,
7 much rainfall fell in the developed sections of 7 right? What does that mean? Translate that to
8 St. Bernard Parish from the Lower Ninth Ward 8 English.
9 all the way down to Violet and Meraux and all 9 A. It's seven tenths of a foot.
10 those communities down south, you don't have 10 Q. Seven tenths of a foot. A tenth of a
11 any specific information from rain gauges, do 11 foot is 1.2 inches. Seven of those is
12 you? 12 8.4 inches, right?
13 A. No, sir. We don't. 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. Page 11 says, with regard to 14 Q. And so in layman's terms could we say
15 rain and datum that no adjustment was necessary 15 that depending on the input in your model and
16 because the differences were too slight to 16 the general error bar related to this type of
17 warrant that much work, correct? 17 modeling, it could be, give or take,
18 A. Yes, and other reasons listed here. 18 8.4 inches?
19 Q. Yeah. The error bar for your modeling 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 is what? 20 Q. Three quarters of a foot higher or
21 A. Um -- what part of -- can you be a 21 lower than your ultimate conclusions.
22 little bit more specific? 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. No. 23 Q. Okay. He's going to print the levee
24 A. Okay. 24 and floodwall crest elevations. And from that,
25 Q. Is there an error bar or rate of error 25 you are going to tell us what the modifications
Page 173 Page 175
1 for the type of modeling that you employed in 1 were, right? Or what modifications were
2 this case? 2 necessary.
3 A. Yes, generally it's -- yes, there is. 3 And is it a fact that those elevations
4 Yes, there is. 4 were originally, if you will, based on LIDAR
5 Q. And what is it? 5 data?
6 A. Around .7 feet. 6 A. Yes, most of them were LIDAR data,
7 Q. Okay. And you determined that no 7 yes.
8 adjustment was necessary because one, the 8 Q. Okay. Here he is now.
9 terrain data accuracy was plus or minus .7, 9 MR. STEVENS:
10 right? 10 Good timing.
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
12 Q. Which was within the .7. I don't 12 Q. We'll mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit
13 quite understand that. Oh, if the rain data 13 Number 6 --
14 accuracy was plus or minus .7 which was within 14 MR. STEVENS:
15 the .7 feet adjustment -- right? So it's kind 15 Is that our next number, Joe?
16 of a push or a wash. Is that a fair way to say 16 (Exhibit 6 was marked for
17 it? 17 identification and is attached hereto.)
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
19 Q. And then the differences were so 19 Q. I'm going to take a second and number
20 slight that it didn't warrant the work involved 20 these 6.1, 6.2 through 6.7. 6.1 through 6.7.
21 in recalculating everything. 21 For ease of discussion I'll hold onto the one
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 with the numbers. You got a set, do you,
23 Q. And finally, so is it fair to say that 23 Doc -- or Mr. Fitzgerald?
24 the results of your modeling have an error bar 24 A. No.
25 equal to or greater than .7? 25 Q. If you would, tell us as you walk
Page 174 Page 176
44 (Pages 173 to 176)

1 through, 6.1, the first plate, what does it 1 Right? Then when it gets do the GIWW reach
2 depict and how was it adjusted? 2 it's at around 13 again.
3 A. It depicts the -- the purpose of this 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 is to depict the crest elevation of either a 4 Q. Okay. Then when we go to 6.2, which
5 levee or floodwall along -- this is the IHNC 5 is the St. Bernard levee profile -- all right,
6 reach. 6 let's look at that one. Tell us what this
7 Q. Uh-huh. 7 depicts.
8 A. Which the reaches are designated in 8 A. This shows the levee profile from the
9 the report in Figure 6. 9 IHNC -- crest elevation profile from IHNC lock,
10 Q. Okay. 10 around all the reaches along the levee, back
11 A. Okay? 11 around to the Mississippi River. So this is
12 Q. I got you. 12 the length of the levee except for the
13 A. Okay. And to make it a little -- to 13 Mississippi River levee. Everything but --
14 make it visually easier to follow, I placed 14 Q. So on the far left it starts at the
15 approximate location of where the floodwalls 15 IHNC lock --
16 were along the bottom, the dashed line. 16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Uh-huh. 17 Q. -- and as you move to the right it
18 A. Approximate locations of crossings or 18 goes Claiborne Avenue, Florida Avenue, GIWW,
19 other physical locations that would help figure 19 the 120-degree bend, Paris Road, all the way
20 out where you are when you're looking at this 20 down -- Bayou Bienvenue, Bayou Dupre, all the
21 track. 21 way to Ycloskey, Highway 46, then Chalmette
22 Q. And where did you get this data, did 22 begins and it continues on around until it gets
23 you do a survey yourself or did you adopt this 23 back to the Mississippi River levee.
24 data from the IPET? 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 A. We started with the data from the 25 Q. Right? And then so each one of these
Page 177 Page 179
1 IPET, and then, um -- I got some initial 1 are pre-hurricane or post-hurricane levee
2 information about the crest elevations from 2 elevations?
3 Bruce Ebersole, and then got some information 3 A. Those are pre-hurricane.
4 from him and he directed me to some of the 4 Q. All right. And the green line that
5 LIDAR profile plots that I looked at. 5 runs through the center of all that is the peak
6 Q. Okay. And the LIDAR profile plots, 6 water level, or described as the peak water
7 are they from 2004? 7 level according to your chart.
8 A. Um -- the profile plots showed 8 A. Yes.
9 pre-Katrina and post-Katrina LIDAR plotted on 9 Q. And is that the peak water level when?
10 them. So one was 2005, the other was either 10 A. Um -- that was the peak water level
11 2000 or 2001. We can look in the report and 11 that Bruce provided to me, and it was from
12 figure out which one it is. 12 the -- I believe it's from the observed water
13 Q. All right. If it's expressed in your 13 levels that he had collected. They collected
14 report, that's good for our purposes for now. 14 the data of observed water levels outside the
15 A. Yes, pre-Katrina, 2001 LIDAR, and 15 St. Bernard basin.
16 post-Katrina, 2005. 16 Q. All right. Outside the St. Bernard
17 Q. All right. Now, on this Exhibit 6.1, 17 basin would be outside the MRGO levee or the
18 the IHNC elevations here, it shows that the 18 Chalmette levee.
19 area -- the lock, right, at IHNC, to Claiborne 19 A. Yes.
20 Avenue, it looks like the crest elevation is 20 Q. Okay. And those would be depicted as
21 somewhere around 13-1/2, right at 14 feet? 21 the peak water levels before, during and after
22 A. Yes. 22 the storm. That is as high as any water got in
23 Q. Okay. And then it tapers down to 23 the 24-hour period, let's say, before and after
24 about, oh, 12 feet till you get out to Florida 24 August 29th.
25 Avenue, and it gets back up to about 13? 25 A. Um -- those were based on observations
Page 178 Page 180
45 (Pages 177 to 180)

1 or whatever information that was they were able 1 chart?

2 to get after the storm. So. They were 2 A. No.
3 observed high water marks or observed -- yeah, 3 Q. If it went up it was in green or down
4 high water levels. 4 it went in blue or --
5 Q. But you adopt that as correct, that if 5 A. No, sir.
6 Mr. Ebersole or Dr. Ebersole is wrong about the 6 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say
7 water levels, you adopt it as is; whatever is 7 that some went up and some went down?
8 on this St. Bernard levee profile chart marked 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 as Exhibit 6.2, you adopt this to be fact for 9 Q. Or did they all go in the same
10 purposes of your modeling. 10 direction?
11 A. No, sir. We didn't use this in our 11 A. Some went up and some went down.
12 modeling. 12 Q. Okay. Let's go the 6.4, which is
13 Q. Okay. What did you use it for? 13 titled MRGO Reach 2A. These are breaches 1
14 A. Just to -- just for observational 14 through 7, right?
15 purposes to see about where these observed 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 water levels were, and that was it. 16 Q. And I didn't get you to -- I didn't
17 Q. Okay. So this data did not enter your 17 enlarge it, but in your report you identified
18 model. 18 what you call eleven aggregated breaches in
19 A. No, sir. It's not in the model. 19 Figure 6 of your report on Page 14 of your
20 Q. Where did the data for your model come 20 report, correct?
21 from to factor in the high water, um -- the 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 peak water level? 22 Q. All right. And then this chart marked
23 A. That was from the surge hydrographs. 23 as Exhibit 6.4 is a graphic depiction of the
24 Q. Okay. Not from this chart. 24 bottom -- what do we call them?
25 A. No, sir. 25 A. Bottom elevations.
Page 181 Page 183
1 Q. All right. Let's look at the next, 1 Q. -- the bottom elevations for each of
2 6.3. This is the levee profile, am I right, at 2 the breaches. That is as low as they got
3 GIWW? 3 during the storm. Right?
4 A. Yes, sir, it's the levee profile along 4 A. That's what we put in the model to
5 the GIWW as shown in my Figure 6. 5 represent -- the final one.
6 Q. Now, the legend at the bottom says a 6 Q. So, for example, from Station we'll
7 line with a diamond means IPET HEC-RAS, I line 7 call it 4500 to 5000 -- it's a little more like
8 with a square means modified, and a dashed line 8 4300 to 5000, right? The levee that existed at
9 with a circle in it means wall. Right? 9 the time of Katrina had a height or elevation
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 of somewhere around 16 or 17 feet. Right?
11 Q. All right. When it says modified, 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 what are you referring to, modified what? 12 Q. Or am I wrong about that? 17 or
13 A. We modified the elevations in that 13 18 feet. What was the height of the levee
14 area from the original IPET HEC-RAS model. 14 before the storm, Stations 4300 to 5000?
15 Q. Okay. And does it show here what the 15 A. Between 16 and 17.5 feet.
16 difference is in the elevation between what 16 Q. Okay. Then after the storm, that
17 IPET HEC-RAS had concluded and where you 17 section from 4300 to 5000 on this Chart 6.4 was
18 changed it or modified it? 18 reduced down to 10 feet, right?
19 A. No. Excuse me. It doesn't show the 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 difference, it just shows what we selected. 20 Q. Elevation.
21 Q. It just shows that there is a 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 difference. 22 Q. So six and a half, seven feet of the
23 A. We selected a different elevation. 23 crest of the levee at that point was eliminated
24 Q. And now can you tell me if the 24 or taken away. Breached.
25 elevations were higher or lower from this 25 A. Breached. Yes, sir, it was breached.
Page 182 Page 184
46 (Pages 181 to 184)

1 Q. All right. And then we could do the 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 same thing for each one. We would do the width 2 Q. Have you ever been out to any of those
3 by looking at the stations across the bottom, 3 locations to look at those breaches?
4 and the depth of the breach by looking at the 4 A. No, I was not out there at the
5 preexisting elevation in blue compared to the 5 locations --
6 post-storm bottom elevation depicted in red. 6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 A. -- before they were repaired.
8 Q. All right. That's seven of the 8 Q. All right. Well, we'll just go ahead
9 breaches, right? Seven of the eleven breaches 9 and finish looking at these. 6.6 is
10 are shown on the MRGO Reach 2 diagram marked as 10 Ycloskey/Chalmette, from your Station 11000
11 6.4. And then the next slide or chart you 11 down to 13000. No breaches along there.
12 have, which we've marked for identification as 12 A. No, sir.
13 Exhibit 6.5, shows the next four breaches along 13 Q. And the levee heights would have been
14 the MRGO. 14 somewhere 18, 19 feet except for just to the
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 south of the Highway 46 crossing which dips
16 Q. Those breaches make up the eleven 16 down the 15 feet. True?
17 breaches along the MRGO levee. 17 A. Yes.
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. So the lowest levee crest in that
19 Q. The only other two breaches you're 19 section of the MRGO is fifteen feet above sea
20 familiar with are the two in the Industrial 20 level, correct?
21 Canal, the north breach and south breach. 21 A. Yes, sir. A little bit below it.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Just barely below it.
23 Q. Okay. And would you tell me, in MRGO 23 Q. Now, that also, around the Highway 46
24 Reach 2, from Station 7700, 7800, all the way 24 crossing, is determined -- it's got a lot of
25 out to, say, 10300 or 10400, the height of the 25 squares, really from the Highway 46 crossing
Page 185 Page 187
1 levee in that reach was what? 1 all the way south to the right edge of
2 A. Excluding Bayou Dupre, it looks like 2 Exhibit 6.6. That means it's been modified
3 it varied between 17 to, um -- at one point up 3 from the datum contained in the IPET report.
4 to 19 feet. 4 A. Yes, that's what that means.
5 Q. Okay. And then the breaches that 5 Q. And do you recall why they were
6 occurred along there occurred at 7300 or so, 6 modified, what was the basis of their
7 then again at Bayou Dupre, and then to the 7 modification?
8 south -- is that which direction we're headed 8 A. Yes. We looked at the LIDAR
9 there, south? That was the biggest breach out 9 information and pre and post-Katrina and
10 of these four was the one just to the south of 10 determined that we need to make an adjustment
11 Bayou Dupre, is that right? 11 here.
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And did you raise the crest of the
13 Q. The bottom depth of Bayou Dupre 's 13 levees up or down in that stretch of the MRGO?
14 breach and the breach just to the south of it 14 A. I don't remember right now.
15 is ten feet, but the bottom depth of the two 15 Q. If we wanted to make that analysis and
16 smaller breaches or narrower breaches, one of 16 do a comparison of everywhere there was a
17 them got all the way down to five feet bottom 17 modification whether the datum went up or down,
18 elevation. Do you know what made that one so 18 can we do that with the data you have in your
19 much deeper than the rest? 19 system?
20 A. No, sir. 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. That is the deepest breach of them 21 Q. Okay. Has anyone ever done that, to
22 all, is it not? Except for the pipeline 22 your knowledge?
23 crossing -- or just to the south of the 23 A. No.
24 pipeline crossing on 6.4 there's a breach that 24 Q. Okay. And then on 6.7, if we look at
25 goes to about five feet. 25 it in the same light, every datum point on the
Page 186 Page 188
47 (Pages 185 to 188)

1 Chalmette levee was modified in your analysis 1 from -- I think it came from Dr. Resio. Yes,
2 of levee heights. 2 it came from Dr. Resio 's information as well
3 A. Yes. 3 as the wave overtopping, both of them did. And
4 Q. I mean, every one of those has a 4 so we included both --
5 square, and there are no breaches there. 5 Q. Okay.
6 A. That's correct. 6 A. -- into the HEC-RAS model.
7 Q. All right. And again, we don't know 7 Q. And you defined wave setup -- let me
8 if they were modified up or down. 8 go back to the glossary. And I really
9 A. That's correct. 9 appreciate you doing that, because at least we
10 Q. All right. To your knowledge, did 10 a have a place to turn.
11 anyone go out and do a survey, or is this based 11 Wave set-up is the increase in mean
12 on high water marks on trees and other 12 water level caused by wave action. Can you
13 structures; what is the basis of the 13 translate that to layman's terms?
14 modification? 14 A. I'm not sure that I could, because
15 A. We used the pre and post-Katrina LIDAR 15 this was provided to us as wave setup, and I'm
16 information to adjust these elevations. 16 not --
17 Q. So it was LIDAR compared to LIDAR, 17 Q. And so you don't really know what wave
18 period; LIDAR pre-Katrina, LIDAR post-Katrina 18 setup --
19 that was used to make the modifications. 19 A. I don't know if I know enough about it
20 A. We used both those LIDAR sets to 20 to translate into layman terms.
21 determine. 21 Q. Okay. And then you say the third
22 Q. All right. Thank you for your 22 reason that using as accurate a data as
23 patience. We'll attach all that as Exhibits 23 possible is very important to your analysis
24 6.1 to 6.7, and I'll give you the one that I 24 because small differences in surge elevations
25 marked and take back -- either set, if don't 25 are anticipated for the various scenarios.
Page 189 Page 191
1 mind. Thank you. Let me get mine in the same 1 Right?

2 order, if don't mind. 2 A. Yes.
3 Now, in your report at Page 13 you 3 Q. Did you factor in different
4 indicate that accurate data using as accurate 4 differences in surge elevations for each of the
5 as possible levee and floodwall crest 5 scenarios analyzed in your report, or did you
6 elevations is important for this analysis 6 use the same one?
7 because. Are you with me on that? 7 A. Could you repeat the question again?
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Yeah. I'm trying to -- it's kind of
9 Q. All right. And you say, one, because 9 like yes we have no bananas. It's like --
10 crest elevations have a significant effect on 10 small differences in surge elevations are
11 the inflow into the basin. So as we just 11 anticipated for various scenarios. Right?
12 looked it all those little crests and crowns 12 A. Yes.
13 along the levee top would allow water in if it 13 Q. And that's important because it may
14 was a 15-foot surge versus a 17-foot surge 14 change the accuracy of your result according to
15 depending on what their actual elevations were. 15 the initial statement for which this is given.
16 True? 16 A. Yes.
17 A. That's true that the crest elevations 17 Q. So what I want to know is how did you
18 make a difference of the inflow into the basin, 18 account for that, did you use the same small
19 yes. 19 difference for each one, or is it a different
20 Q. Then you say, wave setup and wave 20 one?
21 overtopping are included in the calculation of 21 A. We accounted for it by the surge
22 the inflows. And I want to ask you what wave 22 hydrographs provided by Dr. Westerink's group.
23 setup and wave overtopping information or data 23 They provided us the surge hydrographs that
24 did you rely upon in doing your model? 24 had -- that were different for the two
25 A. Okay. The wave setup data came 25 different scenarios we ran, so that's where the
Page 190 Page 192
48 (Pages 189 to 192)

1 differences were accounted for was in the input 1 further south around the -- in the developed
2 from the surge hydrographs. 2 area.
3 Q. Okay. And did you factor in a 3 Q. Right. I don't know that there's a
4 specific number or does that translate into you 4 map in your report that tells you which
5 take a set of surge hydrographs and plug them 5 community is which, but we know where Location
6 into your model for one scenario and you take a 6 8 is and we can figure that out. I think it's
7 different set of surge hydrographs and plug 7 somewhere just to the north of Violet.
8 them into your model for the other? 8 Now, on that -- just below that same
9 A. Um -- we had different surge 9 Table Number 5 on Page 25, you say, we assumed
10 hydrographs at different locations around the 10 that the breaches in Scenario 6 developed in
11 levee system, but we only got one set of surge 11 the same manner as in Scenario 1 because the
12 hydrographs for each scenario. 12 surge hydrographs and wave overtopping were
13 Q. Okay. In the financial analysis, did 13 similar.
14 the differences in surge elevations in your 14 A. Correct.
15 estimation change the outcome of your model 15 Q. Okay. Why is that?
16 that there was 10.9 feet of water, let's say, 16 A. Why is --
17 in the Lower Ninth Ward? 17 Q. You assumed the same surge hydrographs
18 A. The differences were very, very small 18 and wave overtopping in both scenarios?
19 and are reported in my report. In this report. 19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And if we go -- what table is that? 20 Q. Is that what you did?
21 Is that Table 4? That's with and without the 21 A. Yes, we did.
22 breaches. Might be Table 5. Page 25. Is that 22 Q. Therefore, you conclude that the
23 it? 23 breaches developed in the same way in both
24 A. Yes. Table 5 is -- that's correct. 24 scenarios.
25 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you, for 25 A. Yes.
Page 193 Page 195
1 Location Number 1, for example, versus Number 2 1 Q. Same time? Remember we talked about
2 and A, it said the difference, which is 2 what time the breaches occurred on the time
3 scenario 1 minus Scenario Number 6, right? The 3 line.
4 difference was .2 feet or .3 feet in those 4 A. Yes.
5 first two locations, right? 5 Q. When they first triggered and when
6 A. Yes. 6 they reached bottom elevation. And you assumed
7 Q. A difference of .2 or .3 feet, is that 7 all those things were the same for the two
8 less water or more water? 8 scenarios.
9 A. The Scenario 6 elevations were lower 9 A. Yes. We assumed the breach
10 than the Scenario 1 elevations. 10 development was the same for both scenarios.
11 Q. Right. So when we see .2 difference 11 Q. Okay. And again that comes from
12 between the two, that's .2 feet less water. A 12 Westerink and Resio, the surge stage
13 positive number. Like down below it, Location 13 hydrographs and wave overtopping data for
14 Number 8, the difference is negative .1. So 14 Scenario 6.
15 Scenario 1 is 11.3 feet, Scenario 6, 11.4 feet, 15 A. That's correct.
16 -1 is a difference of -.1, which is actually 16 Q. All right. Now, I guess again I want
17 more water. 17 to split a hair with you. And it might not
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 mean anything, but you said that they were the
19 Q. And the only place where the 19 same. But in the upper paragraph you say,
20 difference was more water, in your modeling, 20 since the surge and wave data for Scenario 6
21 between Scenario 1 and Scenario 6, was Location 21 are very similar to the data for Scenario 1,
22 8 which is somewhere north of Violet, down 22 the maximum water levels in St. Bernard basin
23 in -- way down in the parish. 23 are nearly identical.
24 A. I don't know where Violet is, but 24 Now, for lawyers that's close enough.
25 Location 8 is shown on my Figure 7 which is 25 For engineers, very similar is not exactly the
Page 194 Page 196
49 (Pages 193 to 196)

1 same. So are they exactly the same or are they 1 near the 40 Arpent levee. I considered that as
2 very similar? 2 observational data.
3 A. They're very similar. 3 Q. All right. Any other?
4 Q. Okay. Why are they not exact? 4 A. That was the primary one.
5 A. Because the surge hydrograph for 5 Q. Okay. And professional judgment.
6 Scenario 6 did not have exactly the same 6 What professional judgment did you
7 elevation at the same times for as Scenario 1. 7 exercise in estimating the duration of the
8 Q. Okay. Now, if I wanted you to -- I 8 breaches?
9 don't know that I have those. Is that part of 9 A. That I didn't do. That came from
10 this -- I don't think I got the surge 10 Mr. Ebersole.
11 hydrographs that you are referring to. Is that 11 Q. So it was Ebersole 's professional
12 on this disk? 12 judgment, not yours.
13 A. On what we provided? 13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Yeah. I don't think we have the surge 14 Q. Okay. I want you to explain this next
15 hydrographs for Scenario 6. 15 sentence to me, because we just looked through
16 A. No, I don't believe so. 16 all the levee profiles and breach profiles, if
17 Q. Well, let me call for production of 17 you will, and I didn't -- and I pointed out a
18 surge hydrographs for Scenario 6. 18 couple where the breach profile, some went down
19 MS. GREIF: 19 to ten feet and some went all the way down to
20 Would those have been part of 20 five feet above sea level. And this says that
21 Westerink 's report? 21 HEC-RAS model breach routine -- excuse me, in
22 MR. STEVENS: 22 the HEC-RAS model breach routine, the crest
23 I don't know. 23 elevation downgrades to the final elevation
24 THE WITNESS: 24 uniformly with each time step for the duration
25 Yes. They were in 25 given. Now, to a liberal arts major, that's a
Page 197 Page 199
1 Dr. Westerink's report. 1 lot of technical stuff. I don't really

2 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 2 understand that. Can we break that apart? The
3 Q. So you adopted them from 3 crest elevation downgrades to the final
4 Dr. Westerink. 4 elevation? Is that the same as the final --
5 A. Westerink, right, and then with input 5 A. Bottom elevation.
6 from Resio and Ebersole. 6 Q. -- bottom elevation that you and I --
7 Q. On Page 13 of your report, back to the 7 we gave it a different label, but it's, in his
8 breaches, you said Bruce Ebersole provided 8 parlance, crest elevation downgrades to final
9 guidance for determining when the breaches 9 elevation.
10 occurred, which is referred to as the trigger 10 A. Yes.
11 elevation -- right? The next sentence says, 11 Q. This says, the bottom elevations would
12 the duration was estimated based on eyewitness 12 be uniform. We just demonstrated by
13 accounts, other observational data and 13 Exhibit 6.1 to 6.7 that they're not uniform.
14 professional judgment. Let's take that apart, 14 Uniform means the same, true?
15 eyewitness accounts. Where did you get those? 15 A. Yes.
16 A. Those were eyewitness accounts of the 16 Q. Okay. They're not the same, are they?
17 water within the St. Bernard basin within the 17 A. The bottom elevations are not the
18 developed area. 18 same.
19 Q. Okay. Then -- 19 Q. Right. Who is wrong, me or Ebersole?
20 A. And those were from the IPET report of 20 Or who says -- is this him or you?
21 the time line and the water levels. 21 A. This was in our HEC-RAS model. This
22 Q. Observational data. What 22 is how the HEC-RAS model routine works. So
23 observational data are you referring to? 23 this is what I wrote.
24 A. That was primarily the video that was 24 Q. Okay. And what is the HEC-RAS model
25 taken at the TV station. That was on the -- or 25 routine?
Page 198 Page 200
50 (Pages 197 to 200)

1 A. Um -- that's what -- this is 1 equally, every five minutes it lost the same
2 describing how it handles a breach in the 2 amount of levee.
3 levee. 3 A. Correct.
4 Q. All right. So the HEC-RAS model 4 Q. Okay. And did that have anything to
5 routine determines all breaches to be uniform 5 do with any changes in the forces of the water?
6 at their bottom? 6 Would additional surge increase that,
7 A. No, sir. 7 accelerate that?
8 Q. Okay. What does it do? 8 A. We don't know. This was an assumption
9 A. What it does is when the water 9 made for this -- put in this routine to model
10 level -- the surge elevation reaches a certain 10 the breach.
11 elevation, the trigger elevation, then the 11 Q. Now, then Table 1 on Page 14 shows the
12 levee starts to downgrade at that point, and 12 breach parameters. Right?
13 what this means is uniformly is with each time 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 step; that means for an hour and half our time 14 Q. All right. Now the MRGO reach, that's
15 step, let say is -- every five minutes it does 15 the station numbers, right?
16 a calculation, so every five minutes the 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 elevation will decrease, but the rate of 17 Q. In the first column. And then bottom
18 decreasing is the same, it's uniformly 18 width is the width of the breach at the end of
19 decreasing every five minutes down to that 19 the cycle, when -- when it was at its maximum
20 final or bottom elevation. So it's uniformly 20 depth and maximum width. At its final
21 over each time step. 21 elevation, in our parlance, bottom elevation.
22 Q. For each breach, separate and apart 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 from one another -- 23 Q. Right? Okay. And the third column is
24 A. Yes. 24 the actual bottom elevation, how deep it got.
25 Q. -- or for all of them? 25 And we looked at these, some were ten feet,
Page 201 Page 203
1 A. They're all separate. It's a separate 1 some were as low as five. Five is actually
2 calculation for each one. 2 deeper than ten, right, because it's a lower
3 Q. Let me see if I can translate this to 3 elevation?
4 language I can understand. Once the trigger 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 elevation is reached and a breach occurs, we 5 Q. All right. And then the fourth
6 ended up with eleven of them. We started with 6 column, when the breach occurred, at what
7 one and then two, and then six or, depending 7 elevation did the trigger begin?
8 how many triggered at the same time. Fair 8 A. Yes, sir, that's the water surface
9 enough? 9 trigger elevation.
10 A. They don't trigger at the same time. 10 Q. All right. When the water was 13 feet
11 It depends on what elevation it reaches at that 11 above sea level the trigger began at Station
12 location where the breach is. 12 40265. Right?
13 Q. Right. And once they're triggered -- 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 well, looking at the model you did, it looks 14 Q. All right. And it appears that that
15 look a bunch of them triggered all at one time. 15 would be the first one that we put in our time
16 Several -- of the eleven, some triggered early 16 line early this morning, that was about
17 and then others all sort of triggered about the 17 6:00 a.m.?
18 same time. Once the bathtub got full, the 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 brim -- the water sort of started pouring over 19 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. 7:00 a.m. The
20 the whole edge. But that's just my layman's 20 first flow through a breach occurred, I'm
21 appreciation of it. It does really matter. 21 sorry, at 6:00 a.m. And by 7:00 a.m. the flow
22 For our purposes, I wanted to clarify 22 occurred through all the breaches. So all
23 what it meant by final elevation and uniformly. 23 these breaches on Page 14 of Table 1
24 And what you're saying is the step increments 24 occurred -- they were triggered between 6:00
25 of the degradation of the levee occurred 25 a.m. and 7:00 a.m.
Page 202 Page 204
51 (Pages 201 to 204)

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 it was 825 feet wide and the bottom depth was
2 Q. In that one-hour interval. True? 2 three feet elevation.
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Then, and the initial one 4 Q. On this chart Figure 6 of your report
5 occurred at 13-foot water surface elevation, 5 which appears -- Figure 6 appears below Table 1
6 and all the rest occurred as it continued to 6 on Page 14, and Figure 6 depicts all the
7 rise to 16 feet. Right? 7 various levee reach designations, and in red it
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 demonstrates what you call the eleven breach
9 Q. All right. The final column says, 9 locations. You've aggregated as eleven breach
10 formation time. And every one of them says 1.5 10 locations, right?
11 hours. Now, that was an estimation on your 11 A. Well, this is approximate breach
12 part or -- how is it that they all have exactly 12 locations. There weren't -- I didn't try to
13 the same formation time? 13 relate them exactly to these eleven that we
14 A. It was an estimation on our part. 14 aggregated. So.
15 Q. And why estimate it if you can 15 Q. Okay. Well, the ones on the profiles
16 calculate it? 16 we looked at as Exhibit 6.1 to 6.7, those would
17 A. Um -- there is not a way to calculate 17 be more accurate. These are just sort of a
18 that. We don't know how long -- exactly how 18 general description of where they occurred on
19 long they took. 19 Figure 6.
20 Q. Okay. 20 A. These are probably more accurate about
21 A. This was an estimation. 21 where they really occurred. I mean, because we
22 Q. I mean, you have digital data, right? 22 aggregated some of the smaller ones that may
23 As to when the triggers occurred and when they 23 have shown up in Figure 6. We aggregated some
24 reached bottom elevation? 24 together.
25 A. We have the data from our model of 25 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you this:
Page 205 Page 207
1 what -- 1 On Page 20 of your report, these breaches on

2 Q. Right. And you can't calculate for 2 the MRGO -- well, let me find one -- you
3 each one of these what the formation time was? 3 indicated somewhere that the water volume that
4 A. Formation time is required to put into 4 came from the IHNC breaches was about
5 the model to model each breach. That's an 5 12 percent of all the water; correct?
6 input value. 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. So what did you put in if you 7 Q. Is that correct? Is that a correct
8 had to estimate -- this is what you put in, 1.5 8 statement? Where did I see that? I know the
9 for every one of them. 9 number, I'm just trying to find out where you
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 reported it.
11 Q. Okay. It's not a result. I'm 11 A. On Page 20, in the paragraph just
12 catching on. I'm catching on. Day after 12 below the table.
13 tomorrow I'll get it when you're long gone and 13 Q. Thank you. There's what I'm looking
14 you're back in Houston. I got you. 14 for right there. About 70 percent of the
15 And the same thing for the north and 15 breach volume flowed through the breaches
16 south breach of the Industrial Canal. The 16 adjacent to the MRGO between Bayou Dupre and
17 north breach went all the way down to one foot 17 Bayou Bienvenue. Right?
18 elevation, is that right? 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 A. Yes. 19 Q. Which is all the red marks on Figure
20 Q. And the water surface level that was 20 6. About 14 percent of the volume flowed
21 required to trigger that breach was 9 feet? 21 through Bayou Dupre and the breaches to the
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 south. And about 12 percent came through the
23 Q. And that took twenty minutes. 23 Industrial Canal breaches. Right?
24 A. That was the estimate. 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Okay. And then for the south breach, 25 Q. Now, you showed us earlier with your
Page 206 Page 208
52 (Pages 205 to 208)

1 simulation that the flooding of the Lower Ninth 1 to testify I'll by happy to.
2 Ward was pretty well done when the breaches -- 2 MS. GREIF:
3 when the overtopping of the levee occurred at 3 No. Because you're asking the
4 the 40 Arpent Canal. You didn't know what had 4 question --
5 happened first. It would have happened 5 MR. STEVENS:
6 eventually, but 100 percent of the water in the 6 I'm just saying, vast majority is
7 Lower Ninth Ward came from the breaches in the 7 not a very precise term, you are
8 Industrial Canal. 8 correct. If he can't answer it we'll
9 Is that a fair statement or am I 9 just let him defend himself.
10 boogering that up? 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
11 A. It depends on what time frame you're 11 Q. You with me? You got your --
12 talking about. 12 A. I'm trying to get them in order.
13 Q. Okay. If we look back at -- let's go 13 Q. Okay. Mr. Fitzgerald, look at my
14 to your video again. It would be -- all right, 14 screen here. I'll play it for you.
15 we're starting at 3:30 in the morning. You got 15 A. I got it.
16 your -- what exhibit is that for our deposition 16 Q. You won't have to thumb through
17 purposes? Exhibit 3. 17 anything. Watch. I'll start it over and we're
18 A. Exhibit 3. 18 going to watch it coast to coast. All right.
19 Q. Exhibit 3. Okay. I have it started. 19 You ready? 3:30, 4:30, 5:00, 5:30, 6:00 -- you
20 When we get to nine o'clock, the Lower Ninth 20 see what it's doing? You're watching the Ninth
21 Ward is full. We could really back up to 21 Ward? Okay. I stopped it at 8:30.
22 earlier than that. Let me start it over. 22 At 8:30 the Lower Ninth Ward is full
23 Okay. So here we go again. 4:00, 23 and it's dark. It's got ten feet of water in
24 4:30, 5:00 a.m., there's water in the upper 24 it, right? Except a couple of little shades of
25 portion of the Ninth Ward, but we've talked 25 lighter stuff.
Page 209 Page 211
1 earlier about how the breach occurred. The 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 north breach occurred about ten minutes to 2 Q. All right. At that point the 40
3 4:00, an hour before that. The north breach 3 Arpent levee is starting to experience some
4 has already occurred and the central wetlands 4 overtopping, correct?
5 unit is not yet full. You with me? 5 A. Yes, sir. By 8:30 it's starting to
6 A. At 5:00 a.m.? 6 overtop 40 Arpent.
7 Q. Yes. The central wetlands unit has a 7 Q. And by 8:30, both breaches have
8 foot or two of water in it. Maybe two to four 8 occurred in the north and south of the Inner
9 in some places, right? 9 Harbor Navigational Canal, right?
10 MS. GREIF: 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 What is the question? 11 Q. All right. Would you agree that the
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 12 vast majority of the water in the Lower Ninth
13 Q. I'm trying to establish with this 13 Ward was there and it came from the Inner
14 witness that 100 percent of the water in the 14 Harbor Navigational Canal before the 40 Arpent
15 Lower Ninth Ward -- or the vast majority of the 15 levee overtopped?
16 water in the Lower Ninth Ward came from the 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Industrial Canal breach before the levees 17 Q. Okay. It's not in your chart, that's
18 overtopped. 18 why I'm kind of -- you got to read the
19 MS. GREIF: 19 narrative to get the percentages, but in the
20 Well, what do you mean by vast 20 narrative section you say about 70 percent of
21 majority? Do you have a percentage? 21 the breach volume, because the breach volume is
22 MR. STEVENS: 22 just the last entry, it's the 344,690 acre-feet
23 He can quantify it if he wants 23 of water in the entire St. Bernard basin,
24 to. I mean, we've got the same 24 right?
25 imagery. I'm just -- if you want me 25 A. Yes, sir.
Page 210 Page 212
53 (Pages 209 to 212)

1 Q. 82 percent I would say is the vast 1 Q. All right. I'm not sure what all this
2 majority of all the water, came from breaches. 2 does. This doesn't give any elevations, does
3 Right? 3 it? It just gives locations.
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And as to the Lower Ninth Ward you 5 Q. And what do those labels indicate, A
6 could separate out 12 percent of that water 6 through K?
7 coming from the Industrial Canal. Right? 7 MS. GREIF:
8 A. Yes, sir. Through the breaches in the 8 Scroll down. There's more of the
9 Industrial Canal. 9 document.
10 Q. In fact, you told us that some of the 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
11 water that migrated over into Chalmette and 11 Q. What I'm asking is what does that
12 headed down to St. Bernard Parish also came 12 show?
13 from the Lower Ninth Ward which originated in 13 MS. GREIF:
14 the Industrial Canal, from those breaches on 14 I think it explains in the rest
15 that end. 15 of the document. I think those
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 letters correspond to text.
17 Q. Okay. I got a question about another 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
18 one of your attachments to your report, or the 18 Q. It says, wall sections plus -- that
19 data you gave us. It's not an attachment to 19 might be Wall Section S, I'm not sure. There's
20 your report, it's some of the data you gave us 20 a typo. Plus some levee sections for which
21 on the disk. But it says the Ebersole levee 21 crest elevations should be checked, J, K and L.
22 wall elevation summary data was redacted. 22 Levees were raised here between time of
23 Okay? Actually, what I got has been removed. 23 pre-storm LIDAR and the Hurricane Katrina.
24 I've got a chart that says Ebersole levee wall 24 Right?
25 elevation summary data, and the word redacted, 25 A. Yes.
Page 213 Page 215
1 and the rest of it is blank, there's nothing 1 Q. So that would indicate that there's
2 there. 2 some locations where they should raise the
3 Are you saying that's -- 3 level of the levees for data purposes over what
4 MS. GREIF: 4 was there before?
5 That's the first page. 5 A. Yes. Yes, scroll up.
6 MR. STEVENS: 6 Q. Up? Okay. Let me go back to J, K and
7 Oh, and then what's behind it -- 7 L here.
8 MS. GREIF: 8 A. Yes. Okay. Yes.
9 Yes. There's more to that 9 Q. Okay? So do you know what it means?
10 document. 10 A. Um -- yes, it means that there was
11 MR. STEVENS: 11 some work done along that reach where it's J, K
12 I just want to make sure. Let's 12 and L indicated on that map.
13 take a look at it. I want to make 13 Q. Okay. Where they increased the levee
14 sure I got the data. 14 height over and above the 2001 LIDAR data, is
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 15 that what you're telling me?
16 Q. Do you know which one it's in, KC1008 16 A. Would you scroll back down?
17 or 1007? 17 Q. Sure.
18 (Off the record.) 18 A. Okay. Yes. Between the pre-storm
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 19 LIDAR and Hurricane Katrina. That's correct.
20 Q. This is -- it says Ebersole Levee Wall 20 Q. They increased the levee heights.
21 Elevation Summary, Redacted. Page 1 just says 21 A. Yes. That's what it says.
22 redacted. And as you scroll down, there's 22 Q. So we need go back out and check those
23 seven pages in all. All right? 23 heights, right?
24 Can you read that? Or see it? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now. This one says C, south breach,
Page 214 Page 216
54 (Pages 213 to 216)

1 the breach was about 800 feet in length and 1 document. Fair enough?
2 then there's a great spot that says redacted. 2 A. That's correct.
3 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. All right. Now, let's take an
4 Q. What was taken away there? What was 4 example. These others, let's say N, Bayou
5 redacted there? 5 Bienvenue gate, okay? This is a description of
6 A. You see on other locations where it 6 the modification of the elevations between the
7 has letters and descriptions? 7 original 2001 LIDAR and the post-Katrina LIDAR,
8 Q. Uh-huh. 8 correct?
9 A. It had a description there similar to 9 A. No, sir.
10 the other letters there. 10 Q. Okay. Let's read it. And -- well,
11 Q. C says east bank south breach on that 11 tell me what it is, then.
12 first map. 12 A. What is this we're reading?
13 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Yeah. A general description of what
14 Q. All right? E was the north breach and 14 it is.
15 it's been redacted. 15 A. Mr. Ebersole sat down with a gentleman
16 A. Yes. 16 whose name I can't remember at this time who
17 MS. GREIF: 17 was part of the hurricane protection office in
18 What was redacted were draft -- 18 the Corps of Engineers, with information, data,
19 that was -- the redactions in that 19 some kind of data, I don't know exactly what
20 document were because they were not 20 they had, and they went through this together.
21 what Steve relied on, they were, um -- 21 This is what Mr. Ebersole told me. And they
22 Mr. Ebersole 's draft material that 22 went through St. Bernard together looking at
23 ultimately ended up in his report. So 23 the information, and these are Mr. Ebersole 's
24 they were draft of material that ended 24 notes of that, looking at the information. And
25 up in Ebersole 's report. 25 then Mr. Ebersole provided this to me.
Page 217 Page 219
1 MR. STEVENS: 1 Q. Okay. So if we read again with regard

2 So what's removed from C and E 2 to Bayou Bienvenue gate, wing walls on either
3 here -- 3 side of gate at 15 feet crest elevation. South
4 MS. GREIF: 4 wing wall on 100-foot long north wing wall was
5 Were not reliance materials for 5 180 feet long. The south wing wall was
6 Steve. The rest of the document -- 6 breached and flanked during the storm. Just
7 what's left unredacted was not draft, 7 north of north wing wall, 100-foot section of
8 but was what Steve relied on. 8 wall at approximately 13.7 feet.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 9 These are his field notes from a visit
10 Q. So what did you rely on for the south 10 out there?
11 breach and the north breach in the Industrial 11 A. No, sir, I think this took place in an
12 Canal? 12 office based on information --
13 A. I got some information from 13 Q. Okay.
14 Mr. Ebersole. 14 A. -- that this other gentlemen brought
15 Q. Additional information. 15 with him and went over with Mr. Ebersole.
16 A. Additional information that superseded 16 Q. So this is Mr. Ebersole 's notes about
17 this. 17 information he got from somebody else about
18 Q. And is that produced with your stuff 18 those locations.
19 or would that be in Mr. Ebersole's report? 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 A. That would be in Mr. Ebersole 's 20 Q. And you don't know who that other
21 report. 21 person was?
22 Q. So whatever Mr. Ebersole says about 22 A. I don't remember.
23 location for south breach and north breach, 23 Q. Was this information used to modify
24 that's what you relied on, that's what you put 24 the levee crest elevations that we went over in
25 into your model, not what used to be in this 25 Exhibit 6.1 to 6.7?
Page 218 Page 220
55 (Pages 217 to 220)

1 A. Um -- 1 directly. No.
2 MS. GREIF: 2 Q. Was it used in any way to establish
3 Which information? When you say 3 elevations for any structures or protective
4 this information -- 4 levees or anything like that?
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 5 A. No, the high water mark data, the
6 Q. The information I'm showing you on the 6 observational data that's referred to in my
7 screen here which was Mr. Ebersole 's notes 7 report, as we referred to it, was not used for
8 from the meeting with the other follow. 8 levee crest elevations.
9 A. I used this because I had this, and 9 Q. What was it used for?
10 then I also had the LIDAR profile plots pre and 10 A. It was used to look at the results of
11 post-Katrina, looking at those also, and then I 11 the HEC-RAS model, because we ran the
12 coordinated that with Mr. Ebersole. So I made 12 different -- we ran the model to see how well
13 sure if I made a change looking at all the 13 we were coming -- or what we were matching to
14 different information, he got to look at it and 14 the observational data, the elevations and the
15 give my feedback. 15 times of the water levels. That was a way to
16 Q. But in terms of your modeling, this 16 compare, to see how accurately the model was
17 information and these modification charts 6.1 17 working.
18 to 6.7 is the data inputted into your model to 18 Q. All right. Let me ask you, on Page
19 establish crest elevations for purposes of 19 15, I need to get a time from you if we can, on
20 assessing when initial overtopping would be 20 Table 2, flood simulations, Scenario 1,
21 triggered, when initial breaching would be 21 Scenario 6, for the government, and Scenarios 1
22 triggered, the duration of the overtopping, the 22 and 3 for the plaintiff, and you compare them,
23 duration of the breaches; all that would 23 the different variables, what -- in the final
24 ultimately be derived from these modifications 24 column, the description says conditions at
25 to the pre-Katrina LIDAR data. 25 Hurricane Katrina landfall. Okay? Again, we
Page 221 Page 223
1 A. We relied on the crest, in the 1 started off with that this morning. But what
2 profiles you have there, Exhibit 6 I guess it 2 is your appreciation of the time for landfall;
3 is. 3 what time is that?
4 Q. 6.1 through 6.7? 4 A. I don't know when landfall was.
5 A. That's what we put in our model. But 5 Q. But I mean if we're talking about the
6 the pre-Katrina and post-Katrina data both were 6 time when certain events took place, when the
7 examined to determine what the put into the 7 overtopping of the levees took place, when the
8 final elevations on the levees and the walls. 8 branches occurred, how do we know how that
9 Q. All right. I understand. Thank you. 9 compares to actual landfall if we don't know
10 Now, when you said earlier you used 10 the time for the landfall of the hurricane?
11 observation data and eyewitness information, 11 A. This description here is describing
12 where would high water marks fit into that, 12 generally what the conditions were prior to
13 would it be observational data or would it be 13 Katrina making landfall.
14 eyewitness data? Or professional judgment I 14 Q. Well, the description I'm looking at
15 think was the other category. 15 on Column 1, or Row 1, in the far right column,
16 A. High water marks would be an 16 descriptions, says conditions at Hurricane
17 observational data, and some eyewitness data 17 Katrina landfall.
18 also. That would be under both of those. 18 MS. GREIF:
19 Q. And that data was in fact used or 19 But I think what that means is
20 inputted into your model that ultimately came 20 when -- right immediately before
21 out as an animation that we marked as 21 Katrina hit what were the conditions.
22 Exhibit 3. 22 MR. STEVENS:
23 A. Um -- was that a question, whether it 23 Well, I mean, it's his model,
24 was inputted? No, it was not. That 24 it's his report. I appreciate you
25 information was not inputted into the model 25 trying to help, but if you could maybe
Page 222 Page 224
56 (Pages 221 to 224)

1 let the witness tell us. 1 at Page 16 in entitled calibration. Because

2 A. Yes, it's to represent the conditions 2 the physical features were represented
3 before Katrina entered into the area and 3 realistically and the surge and wave input used
4 impacted the area. 4 actual physical features, the need for
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 5 calibration of the HEC-RAS model to more
6 Q. Now, when it says the Katrina real 6 closely match maximum water surface levels with
7 run, Scenario 1, with the MRGO as designed, 7 observed high water marks in the subbasins was
8 right? You didn't do anything -- because 8 minimal. You got to bring me there, I'm not
9 that's outside the Chalmette levees you're not 9 exactly sure what any of that means. But what
10 concerned about the dimensions of the MRGO 10 does that mean?
11 channel, are you, in your modeling? 11 A. What that means is physical features
12 A. Um -- no, sir, we did not get into -- 12 of the basin, St. Bernard basin --
13 Q. It didn't matter to you if the channel 13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 is 650 feet wide and 36 feet deep or if it's 14 A. -- were represented as realistically
15 1500 feet width and 40 feet deep, it doesn't 15 as we possibly could, and my basic
16 make a difference to you in terms of your 16 understanding of the surge and wave modeling,
17 modeling. 17 when they modeled that they're trying to get
18 A. We did not get into what happened 18 the physical features as accurately as
19 outside the St. Bernard basin proper. 19 possible, also, in their model to represent the
20 Q. Right. So the answer to my question 20 surge and wave hydrographs.
21 is no. 21 Q. They being Westerink, Ebersole and
22 A. No. 22 Resio.
23 Q. Then, for Scenario 6, which is titled 23 A. That would be Westerink, primarily
24 MRGO as designed, and 1956 wetlands -- right? 24 his.
25 Again, are you referring to everything outside 25 Q. Okay.
Page 225 Page 227
1 the levee or does that -- I know what MRGO as; 1 A. And Dr. Resio, too.
2 designed means, but what about the 1956 2 Q. Resio and Westerink.
3 wetlands? Are you referring to the wetlands in 3 A. Yes.
4 the central wetlands unit here on Exhibit 3 or 4 Q. So to the extent that their physical
5 the wetlands outside of the MRGO levee? 5 features are not realistically represented,
6 A. Um -- I don't know. That would be -- 6 that would affect the accuracy of your model.
7 it's outside the purview of the interior 7 A. It would depend.
8 drainage analysis. 8 Q. Okay. It would depend on what?
9 Q. All right. And so I might have asked 9 A. It would depend on how much change
10 you this earlier, and I apologize for repeating 10 there would be in the surge or wave input.
11 this late in the day, but for the purposes of 11 Q. Okay. So for example, let's assume
12 the interior drainage analysis you were 12 for sake of discussion that they didn't
13 referring to not only the flooding, if you 13 classify the central wetlands unit the right
14 will, in the inhabited portion of St. Bernard, 14 type land classification, let's assume they
15 but all of the St. Bernard basin which includes 15 said it was grass when it actually was thick
16 the central wetlands unit, right? 16 forest, or vice versa. Either way. You are
17 A. That's -- yes, that's included in our 17 familiar with coefficients of friction, et
18 HEC-RAS model, all that. 18 cetera, in terms of hydrology.
19 Q. And it matters not to you or your 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 model whether the central wetlands unit had 20 Q. All right. And it does make a huge
21 grass, shrubs, trees or thick forest, it 21 difference as to the land classification as to
22 doesn't make a difference to your model 22 what coefficient of friction you apply in your
23 results. 23 model if you're someone like Dr. Westerink or
24 A. That is correct. 24 Dr. Resio modeling surge and wave action.
25 Q. All right. Section 4.1 of your report 25 A. I'm not -- I don't know how much
Page 226 Page 228
57 (Pages 225 to 228)

1 difference that would make. I don't really 1 hours with the breaches. We did and we got a
2 know. 2 better representation of the observations and
3 Q. You don't know? 3 the high water marks.
4 A. I don't know. That's outside my area 4 Q. So you worked backward, in a sense,
5 of expertise. 5 you used observed information, anecdotal
6 Q. But surge and wave input is, in your 6 information from eyewitnesses, et cetera, and
7 estimation, an actual physical feature? Is 7 then you did your model to see if it kind of
8 that what you're referring to here? 8 matched up.
9 A. Now, the physical features I'm 9 A. Yes. That's the calibration process.
10 referring to are the -- not the surge and wave 10 Q. Got you. Now, what is the weir
11 input but the physical features of the land 11 coefficient friction along the 40 Arpent Canal
12 elevation, the layout, the geometry, those 12 which was ultimately adjusted to match observed
13 condition of things. 13 filling of the subbasins?
14 Q. And the surge and wave input is also 14 A. Um -- in the hydraulic calculations,
15 critical, because you get the -- if you make a 15 within HEC-RAS weir equations are used --
16 wrong assumption about the height of the surge 16 Q. Uh-huh.
17 or the force of the waves, um -- that would 17 A. -- and there's a coefficient that you
18 ultimately affect the amount of water and the 18 apply to help calculate the amount of flow
19 rate of water that would end up in the -- the 19 going over a weir, and that's what the weir
20 rate at which the water would end up in the 20 coefficient is.
21 St. Bernard basin. 21 Q. All right. And so the volume of water
22 A. Yes. 22 and the rate of flow determined coefficient of
23 Q. All right. Now, below that it says 23 friction? Is that a fair reduction of that?
24 the IHNC south breach bottom elevation was 24 A. The weir coefficient is not a
25 increased from 1 to 3 feet to more closely 25 representation of friction.
Page 229 Page 231
1 match the water surface elevations and timing 1 Q. All right. It's a coefficient -- oh,
2 during the initial part of the water rise in 2 it's just a coefficient period.
3 the Lower Nine. If you will allow me to 3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 paraphrase, and correct me if I'm wrong, what 4 Q. Okay. It says it was adjusted to
5 you did was originally someone had assumed that 5 match observed filling of the subbasins.
6 the bottom elevation was 1 foot for the south 6 Observed by whom?
7 breach, later it was determined to be three 7 A. This was from the IPET report. The
8 feet or that three feet would be more 8 part of the report I refer to elsewhere in my
9 appropriate, and so you changed it here, which 9 report that gave the elevation, some of the
10 was a physical feature that was inputted into 10 elevations and timing within the developed area
11 your model, which ultimately changed the 11 of the basin.
12 outcome. Right? 12 Q. Then in Table 3 you compared the
13 A. Yes. 13 Katrina real run to maximum water surface. I'm
14 Q. Okay. And likewise, the formation 14 sorry. It reports the Katrina real run maximum
15 time of the breaches along the levee adjacent 15 water surface elevations and compares it to
16 to the MRGO was increased from one hour to one 16 observed high water marks, right? Again, kind
17 and a half hours. Someone thought that was 17 of as a check to see if your model matched up
18 more representative of reality or more 18 with what people observed.
19 realistic of what actually took place? How did 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 that come about? 20 Q. Okay. And when you talked about
21 A. Um -- we tried the one hour, and when 21 observed high water marks, what kind of
22 we compared it to the observed high water marks 22 observation points did you use?
23 and the timing that we had inside the basin, 23 A. They were the ones that were reported
24 um -- we got close, but we said let's see if we 24 in the IPET report.
25 can do better by going with one and a half 25 Q. Like money machines and stopped clocks
Page 230 Page 232
58 (Pages 229 to 232)

1 and people talking about marks on their houses 1 water depth in the New Orleans East basin?
2 or water levels in their attics, that sort of 2 A. No, sir.
3 thing? 3 Q. Were you ever asked to do that?
4 A. It was a combination of things. Um -- 4 A. Um -- when we first started we thought
5 they used whatever method they could to come up 5 we might, but we ended up not doing it.
6 with as good of information as they could on 6 Q. Any reason why?
7 the high water marks. And it was a variety of 7 A. Um -- I don't know.
8 sources. 8 Q. Okay. What does the diamond mean,
9 Q. But on your table you have observed 9 similar locations to 2008?
10 high water marks for Location Number 1 in the 10 A. The rest of the figures says 2008 Kok
11 upper section of the Lower Ninth Ward as none. 11 report.
12 There were none? 12 Q. Okay. Now, explain what you mean by
13 A. In the information I was looking at, 13 similar locations.
14 there wasn't any. Not for the maximum water 14 A. In his report he had 1 through 10
15 surface. 15 locations shown, and I just by visually tried
16 Q. Let me ask you this, on Figure 7 which 16 to put them in the same place.
17 I will mark -- did I mark Figure 7 as an 17 Q. Got you. All right.
18 exhibit? I think we did. Yes. We've marked 18 A. For comparison purposes.
19 it as Exhibit Number 4. 19 Q. All right. Thank you. In the
20 In Figure Number 7 you mark for 20 conclusions section of your report, on Page 27,
21 plaintiffs' locations with an X, and there's A, 21 the last paragraph basically says that after
22 B and C. There are three plaintiff locations 22 you isolate the north and south breaches in the
23 listed as A, B and C, and down here at the 23 IHNC from the rest of the floodwaters caused by
24 glossary or at the -- right below it, it says X 24 the breaches -- right -- you conclude that if
25 means plaintiffs' locations, right? 25 the IHNC breaches had not occurred the maximum
Page 233 Page 235
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 water surface elevations would have been about

2 Q. All right. And the diamond means 2 the same in the Lower Ninth Ward and that it
3 similar locations to 2008. 3 would have been .2 to .4, which is about two
4 I got to come back to that, but first 4 and half to five inches -- right?
5 of all, the three plaintiffs' locations, where 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 did you get the information that that's where 6 Q. -- lower in the rest of the
7 three plaintiffs are located? 7 St. Bernard basin. And when you say
8 A. Um -- those were the addresses of 8 St. Bernard basin, you mean the entire basin
9 plaintiff locations -- 9 including the central wetlands unit.
11 A. -- that I received from Department of 11 Q. How did the water get from the Ninth
12 Justice. 12 Ward to -- or how would it have gotten to the
13 Q. And as far as I can tell, it appears 13 central wetlands unit?
14 you're looking at Anthony Franz as Location A, 14 A. Well, once the water came over the 40
15 Kent Lattimore as Location B, and Tanya Smith 15 Arpent levee and started, you know, interacting
16 as Location C. Do you know anything about who 16 with the water from IHNC, then it would be all
17 is who? 17 together and then --
18 A. Those names are familiar but I don't 18 Q. Okay.
19 know which one is which. 19 A. -- it's hard to distinguish between
20 Q. Now, there's another plaintiff whose 20 the two.
21 name is Norman Robinson. Do you know where 21 Q. Now, your ultimate conclusion is that
22 Norman Robinson is located? 22 your model indicates how strongly the
23 A. His property is located in the New 23 overtopping and the breaching along the MRGO
24 Orleans East basin. 24 affected maximum water surface elevations in
25 Q. Okay. Did you make any analysis of 25 the entire St. Bernard basin, correct?
Page 234 Page 236
59 (Pages 233 to 236)

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. At the maximum water depth. The

2 Q. In a nutshell, the predominant 2 source of the water was 92 percent from those
3 contributing factor to the flooding in 3 three sources, overtopping -- wave overtopping,
4 St. Bernard Parish and the Lower Ninth Ward of 4 surge overtopping and breaches.
5 Orleans Parish was the MRGO. 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. It would have been the levees along 6 Q. Only 8 percent came from rainfall, and
7 MRGO, the breaches along the levees, that's 7 that 8 percent is estimated based on radar
8 correct. 8 data, or whatever the source was that came from
9 (Brief recess.) 9 the IPET report.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, wrapping things up 11 Q. All right. Now, back to the executive
12 here, let me do a little housekeeping. But on 12 summary. And then you say you calculated these
13 Page 4 of your report, under the title 13 amounts when storm surge and/or waves entered
14 Executive Summary, you indicate that in the 14 the basin. Right? Now, that's just the same
15 last -- let's see if I can hone in on it -- 15 thing, it's just once they got in there. When
16 let's start at the beginning. It says, the 16 you say when, you didn't calculate the times
17 objective of this interior flooding analysis -- 17 for when they got in the basin, other than
18 and that's what you did, a flooding analysis of 18 we've talked about the time line earlier.
19 the interior of the St. Bernard basin, right? 19 Right? What do you mean by when the storm
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 surge came in?
21 Q. All right. The objective was to 21 (Brief interruption.)
22 calculate the amount of flooding in different 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
23 parts of St. Bernard basin. And then it says, 23 Q. I want to know what you mean by that
24 when storm surge and/or waves enter the basin 24 statement. You say calculate the amount of
25 during Hurricane Katrina under different 25 flooding in different parts of the basin
Page 237 Page 239
1 scenarios. That's what you set out to do, 1 when -- W-H-E-N, your word -- storm surge
2 right? 2 and/or waves enter the basin.
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. I understand you 4 Q. Okay. So what did you do to analyze
5 calculated the amount of flooding, and that we 5 storm surge in the basin?
6 went back -- that's the chart with the 6 A. Um -- I did not analyze storm surge in
7 acre-feet, right, and what percent came from 7 the basin.
8 rainfall, what percent came from overtopping 8 Q. What did you do to analyze waves in
9 and what percent came from breaches. 9 the basin?
10 A. Yes. That's that was the volume, yes. 10 A. Did not analyze waves in the basin.
11 Total volume. 11 Q. Did you analyze it as it entered the
12 Q. And the total volume we came up with 12 basin, at the moment it entered the basin, is
13 was -- or you came up with was 344,000 cubic -- 13 that what you're talking about?
14 not cubic, acre-feet. 341,000 acre-feet and 14 A. Yes, sir. That would be more
15 change. Is that correct, sir? 15 accurate.
16 A. That was on Page 20? 16 Q. When you say when, it means at the
17 Q. All right. Because I had another 17 trigger point, when either the surge or the
18 question real quick. Yeah. There's no table 18 wave entered the basin.
19 for it. But it's just below Figure 8K on Page 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 20. The combination of the breaches, the 20 Q. Very good. To accomplish this we
21 surge, overtopping and the wave overtopping is 21 developed a hydraulic model based on the IPET
22 92 percent of all the water that ultimately 22 HEC-RAS model modified with updated and
23 ended up in St. Bernard basin. 23 improved hurricane surge and wave input
24 A. Yes, sir. At the maximum water depth. 24 hydrographs from Dr. Westerink and Resio.
25 Yes. 25 Right?
Page 238 Page 240
60 (Pages 237 to 240)

1 A. Yes. 1 context, I've not used this model anywhere else

2 Q. And with guidance from Bruce Ebersole 2 except on the St. Bernard basin.
3 on breach trigger elevations. Right? 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. All right. Okay. This methodology
5 Q. In layman's terms, can we say that 5 where you improved the HEC-RAS by adding other
6 what you used here was an improved HEC-RAS 6 stuff to it, you've never done that before in
7 hydraulic model? 7 any other setting.
8 A. Yes. 8 A. Um -- yes, our office has taken better
9 Q. That's actually engineering terms. 9 information, better data and made improvements
10 That's what you call it. 10 to models. That happens in this -- in our
11 A. Yes. 11 profession, it happens.
12 Q. You labeled it an improved HEC-RAS 12 Q. But has it happened with the HEC-RAS?
13 hydraulic model, right? 13 A. With the HEC-RAS model? Yes.
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay.
15 Q. Have you ever used an improved HEC-RAS 15 "We ran the following scenarios to
16 hydraulic model before in any of the work 16 determine maximum water surface elevations."
17 you've done for the Corps of Engineers or the 17 We went are you the first one, we beat it to
18 Harris County Flood Control District? 18 death, I don't really need to go there again,
19 A. Yes. This model is used at the Harris 19 we talked about what landfall means, but we're
20 County flood control District. 20 okay, it's not a precise term for you --
21 Q. An improved HEC-RAS? Or just a 21 A. Correct.
22 HEC-RAS? 22 Q. -- it's just as the storm approached
23 A. The improved here is referring to the 23 is the translation of that.
24 modifications made and improved from the IPET 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 version to this version. 25 Q. All right. The next one: MRGO as
Page 241 Page 243
1 Q. Okay. So my question is this: Is 1 designed and with pre-MRGO 1956 marsh

2 this the first time that you used an improved 2 conditions.
3 HEC-RAS in connection with the opinions you 3 Again, I want to nail down the source
4 offer in this case today? 4 of the marsh conditions. They're not -- you
5 MS. GREIF: 5 didn't do independent analysis of the marsh
6 Objection. Vague. 6 conditions in 1956, right?
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 7 A. I did not.
8 Q. I can ask him -- the flip side is, 8 Q. Anything that relates to marsh
9 have you ever used an improved HEC-RAS in any 9 conditions came from Westerink or Ebersole or
10 other setting or case other than the one in 10 Resio or someone other than yourself.
11 which you are testifying today? 11 A. Yeah. I did not use any marsh
12 MS. GREIF: 12 conditions relative to my work.
13 Can I suggest to ask what is an 13 Q. Same thing with regard to wave run-up,
14 improved -- ask him to define what -- 14 wave setup or waves at all, that's not your
15 MR. STEVENS: 15 work, that came from Dr. Westerink or Dr. Resio
16 He has. He has. 16 or Dr. Ebersole. True?
17 MS. GREIF: 17 A. Yes.
18 Okay. 18 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, the time at the tone
19 A. When I wrote here was, using this 19 is 4:28. You've been very patient with me. I
20 improved HEC-RAS hydraulic model, referring to 20 appreciate it. If you would please answer any
21 taking the IPET HEC-RAS model and putting in 21 questions that these other attorneys might
22 updated, improved information, we're improving 22 have. Those are all the questions I have at
23 this particular model for this, for the 23 this time, and I would ask that you produce the
24 St. Bernard basin. 24 things I asked for.
25 So to answer your question under that 25 MS. GREIF:
Page 242 Page 244
61 (Pages 241 to 244)

1 I have no questions. 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 THE WITNESS: 2 I, JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR,
3 Thank you very much. 3 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
4 4 of Louisiana, do hereby certify that the
5 5 aforementioned witness, after having been first
6 6 duly sworn by me to testify to the truth, did
7 7 testify as hereinabove set forth;
8 8 That said deposition was taken by me
9 9 in computer shorthand and thereafter
10 10 transcribed under my supervision, and is a true
11 11 and correct transcription to the best of my
12 12 ability and understanding.
13 13 I further certify that I am not of
14 14 counsel, nor related to counsel or the parties
15 15 hereto, and am in no way interested in the
16 16 result of said cause.
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23 ____________________________________
24 24 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
25 25 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
Page 245 Page 247
1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, STEVEN D. FITZGERALD, P.E., do
4 hereby certify that the foregoing testimony was
5 given by me, and that the transcription of said
6 testimony, with corrections and/or changes, if
7 any, is true and correct as given by me on the
8 aforementioned date.
9
10 ______________ _________________________
11 DATE SIGNED STEVEN D. FITZGERALD, P.E.
12
13 _______ Signed with corrections as noted.
14
15 _______ Signed with no corrections noted.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 DATE TAKEN: January 29th, 2009
Page 246
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193:1 adjust 189:16 AGREED 5:2 108:17,18 APLC 2:2
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add 157:25 afternoon 31:2 33:24 34:17 211:8 225:20 121:25 128:20
adding 243:5 61:21 37:20,23 40:13 242:25 244:20 220:8
addition 161:3 age 172:11 43:19 48:23 answered 82:8 approximation

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138:1,14,15,20 assume 29:22 audiovisual 107:1,5 109:14 234:4 238:6

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207:11 208:15 221:23 230:15 calculated 81:16 149:10 150:9 CCR 1:24 5:22
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breaches 1:4 Brief 168:7 142:21 11:7,18 24:18 66:11,24 67:2
44:19 83:14,15 237:9 239:21 calibration captioned 18:25 68:15,17 69:21

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131:18,21 channels 51:3 28:13 82:21 85:11 130:18
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143:2,6,11 136:9 140:23 cleaner 7:15 162:9 181:20 94:20
144:16 146:9 141:8 142:24 clear 30:7 39:16 230:20 233:5 compliance
146:21 167:6 145:5,18 146:8 clip 63:12 234:4 10:15
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certainly 6:12 140:22 221:17 closer 76:9 153:5 103:21 107:19 18:15 39:25
7:23 check 17:13 coast 211:18,18 117:20 133:15 40:6 41:3,8
CERTIFICATE 216:22 232:17 coding 124:23 133:18 137:11 76:3 161:7
246:1 247:1 checked 215:21 coefficient 147:6 213:7 247:9
Certified 1:25 checks 14:11 228:22 231:11 223:13 concede 27:17
5:23 247:3,25 chief 9:11,21 231:17,20,22 committed 86:2 60:1
certify 246:4 10:5 11:5,6,11 231:24 232:1,2 common 87:18 concepts 42:8
247:4,13 11:15 coefficients communicatio... concern 48:3,6,9
cetera 58:15 choppy 7:19 228:17 19:4 48:11 49:11
114:19 160:24 church 86:20 coin 69:15 communities concerned 49:10
228:18 231:6 circle 71:11 72:1 collect 12:8,8 173:10 225:10
Chalmette 80:12 74:9 101:15,19 collected 161:5 community conclude 59:1
80:13,14 95:18 110:18,20 180:13,13 195:5 136:15 195:22
95:20 97:2,3 111:18 182:9 Collie 9:15,17 company 161:20 235:24
97:22,25 circles 41:4 color 100:8 compare 134:22 concluded 116:7
140:10 143:14 cited 27:11,12 124:23 172:16 135:10 161:15 138:24 163:2
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pumps 88:11,23 question 5:12 172:17 239:7 129:19 152:12 reasonable
89:1,2 7:14,18,20 rain 12:2 68:13 154:5 158:16 169:7
purely 92:6 8:17,19,20,21 171:17 172:7 158:21 196:6 reasons 173:18
purpose 177:3 8:23 12:19 172:19 173:11 202:5 205:24 recalculating
purposes 5:5 20:4 24:7 27:6 173:15 174:13 reaches 177:8 174:21
29:23 30:13 28:11 29:4,23 rainfall 42:15 179:10 201:10 recall 33:11 37:6
32:22 60:10 30:22 31:6,18 69:19 71:14,25 202:11 51:18 92:7
83:20 178:14 33:7 38:9 72:18 73:24,25 reaching 123:11 93:1 126:8
181:10,15 47:22 48:22 91:3 100:18 123:11 188:5
202:22 209:17 56:9 59:8,13 140:24 144:11 read 12:24 53:8 receded 167:5
216:3 221:19 60:14 63:14 144:12 145:19 53:15,16,17,23 167:13,20
226:11 235:18 70:6 71:18 153:13 164:1,8 54:2,20 55:16 receive 102:15
pursuant 5:7 77:4,25 78:8 164:9,13,19,23 55:19,22 received 86:8
purview 226:7 79:4,13 81:23 171:1,8,9,11 110:24 127:7 91:10 171:9
push 174:16 82:8 87:24 172:6,8,12,13 150:4 172:3 234:11
put 11:1 37:24 100:15 106:13 172:18,22 212:18 214:24 recess 168:7
39:1 48:10 107:13,15 173:2,5,7 219:10 220:1 237:9
57:6 59:12,25 114:6 116:20 238:8 239:6 reading 5:8 recharge 146:24
65:1 66:13 117:11 118:13 raining 69:5 31:11 53:3,4 147:2
67:17 74:10,15 122:4 125:13 rainwater 91:9 219:12 recollection 73:4
86:7 94:21 125:15 138:16 raise 188:12 reads 7:19 74:4 92:4,6
112:1 115:14 146:5 149:8 216:2 164:12 96:3 102:2
126:2 170:8,16 150:7 154:22 raised 215:22 ready 211:19 111:16 128:6
184:4 203:9 169:12 172:5 raising 130:7 real 18:2 30:15 record 8:15 9:1
204:15 206:4,7 172:22 192:7 rale 151:8 30:18 59:6,10 62:23 67:11
206:8 218:24 210:11 211:4 ran 60:25 192:25 59:15 89:19 113:2 163:1
222:5,7 235:16 213:17 222:23 223:11,12 92:15 151:8 169:19,24
putting 146:24 225:20 238:18 243:15 225:6 232:13 170:14,21
242:21 242:1,25 range 99:10 232:14 238:18 214:18
P.E 1:11 6:1 questions 6:10 100:4 167:19 realistic 161:8 recorded 172:8
246:3,11 6:11 8:7,9,11 rapid 136:16 230:19 records 71:24
p.m 58:15,16 8:13 11:22 rate 173:25 realistically 172:1
76:16 94:4,5,6 114:8 115:18 201:17 229:19 227:3,14 228:5 recovery 12:7
94:9 95:5 244:21,22 229:20 231:22 reality 230:18 red 50:12 67:1
105:5,15,16 245:1 reach 97:13,13 really 45:3 46:17 67:12,18 71:9
123:23 124:9 quick 18:3 63:14 115:8,17 48:17 75:25 72:2 74:9
125:7 92:15 103:12 119:20,23 135:5 145:12 101:12 172:18

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213:25 214:21 169:8 repaired 187:7 121:25 122:23 reports 10:25
214:22 217:2,5 reflected 41:7 repeat 12:19 123:2,16,22 11:23 33:21
217:15,18 regard 36:2,3,5 20:4 27:17 124:3,8,18 36:21 53:4,8
redactions 125:18 143:2 28:11 40:3 125:21 126:2 53:15,18,20,24
217:19 173:14 220:1 47:22 48:22 127:20,21,24 83:6,8 84:7
reduced 184:18 244:13 71:18 78:8 128:8,17,19,20 85:20,23 123:6
reduction 51:2 regardless 100:15 107:13 128:22,24,25 127:12,15,23
231:23 160:16 192:7 133:21 134:1 128:15 156:8
redundant 27:16 relate 207:13 repeating 134:21 143:4 160:22 161:5
refer 42:21 related 18:17,24 226:10 143:25 145:8 232:14
43:20 69:10 20:17 22:2 rephrase 77:4 145:15 154:20 represent 57:11
72:11,12 79:15 42:22 52:4,23 114:6 138:16 155:18 156:16 184:5 225:2
110:13 126:9 52:24 175:16 154:22 157:2 158:13 227:19
164:7,11 232:8 247:14 report 18:18,22 159:23 160:15 representation
reference 27:22 relates 66:24 19:6,12,22,23 160:20,25 58:19 59:9,15
32:18 50:17 244:8 20:1,8,18 23:4 161:11,13,14 59:18 65:25
83:7 123:22 relationship 23:11,19,22,24 161:16 162:1,5 75:10,14 231:2
128:23 164:16 14:3 52:6 24:24 25:13,17 162:9,10,11,21 231:25
referenced relative 163:5,5 25:24 26:1,21 163:9,16 representations
25:11 26:25 244:12 26:24,25 27:7 164:12 167:25 105:18
27:8,11 83:5 relatively 88:7 27:8,12,13,14 168:2,4,19 representative
109:5 113:19 relevance 50:9 27:23,24,25 171:3 172:3,9 230:18
123:16 124:8 50:10 28:9,10,15 177:9 178:11 represented
references 125:7 relevant 50:5 30:10 31:14 178:14 183:17 58:19 227:2,14
128:22 51:25 33:18,19,23 183:19,20 228:5
referred 35:5 reliance 218:5 34:16 35:16 188:3 190:3 representing 2:1
65:19 103:3 relied 19:9 26:20 36:6,18 40:12 192:5 193:19 3:1 10:12,13
198:10 223:6,7 27:13,20 28:19 42:2,6 52:9,14 193:19 195:4 request 25:3
referring 35:15 77:3 98:9 52:21,23,25 197:21 198:1,7 170:13,16,21
44:4 57:18 129:5 217:21 53:1,16 55:25 198:20 207:4 required 17:24
62:10 71:6 218:8,24 222:1 56:7 58:6,13 208:1 213:18 206:4,21
72:2 80:8,10 rely 28:6,20 60:21 61:17 213:20 217:23 requires 7:1
80:12 90:10 190:24 218:10 66:17 72:11,23 217:25 218:19 reread 53:9
95:14 97:1 remain 132:11 73:12,13,14 218:21 223:7 reserved 5:13
116:10 130:15 remains 45:9 80:13 83:6,18 224:24 226:25 Resio 32:8 34:23
130:16 150:6 remember 15:23 83:20 84:2,3 232:7,8,9,24 36:14,14 37:2
153:17 156:17 21:4 22:24 85:4,10,14,18 235:11,14,20 37:13,22 39:7
164:17 165:7 31:1 35:12 86:10,17 92:14 237:13 239:9 40:20 53:17
169:22 182:12 37:8 50:16 93:3 94:11 reported 1:23 54:6 77:1,7
197:11 198:23 53:10 80:20 97:24 103:1,3 85:20,23 94:9 83:13,20,23
225:25 226:3 84:23,24 92:25 103:6,7 105:4 95:4 98:13 84:20 85:6,9
226:13 229:8 128:2 162:15 105:12,21,24 162:22 193:19 85:12,15
229:10 241:23 188:14 196:1 106:12,18 208:10 232:23 127:10 191:1,2
242:20 219:16 220:22 109:13,17 Reporter 1:25 196:12 198:6
refers 44:1 56:21 reminds 16:18 111:3 113:19 5:23 247:3,25 227:22 228:1,2
56:22 removed 213:23 115:9 116:1 REPORTER'S 228:24 240:24

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resolved 8:17 22:20 23:3,16 133:6 134:14 198:5,11 199:3 179:13,23
resources 41:25 24:5,14 26:16 135:6,11,12,25 200:19 201:4 road 49:16
43:5,10,12 27:13,16 28:24 136:4,22 202:13 203:12 109:15,20
responsibilities 30:18,20 31:2 137:16 138:9 203:14,15,23 110:4,6,11,19
9:25 11:15 32:17 33:13 139:6,22 204:2,5,10,12 110:25 123:1,3
14:5 34:2 35:4 141:12,17,25 204:14 205:4,7 124:13 179:19
responsibility 36:13 38:6 142:5,8,11,15 205:9,22 206:2 roads 10:14
84:25 41:6 44:6,16 142:19 143:17 206:18 207:10 roadways 51:5
responsible 44:25 45:7,18 144:4,9,13,15 207:25 208:14 ROBERT 3:12
10:10 47:21 48:9,11 144:19 145:11 208:17,23 Robinson 1:7
responsiveness 48:12,15 49:18 145:14,17,21 209:14 210:9 234:21,22
5:12 50:11 51:24 145:23 146:21 211:18,24 RODGERS 3:19
rest 78:18 53:6 55:13 147:8,15,17 212:2,9,11,24 roles 13:9
131:14 166:14 59:20,24 60:19 148:10,13,15 213:3,7 214:23 roll 77:13
166:16,21 61:5 62:22 148:24 149:3 215:1,24 roughly 78:25
186:19 205:6 63:14,15 64:6 150:15 151:20 216:23 217:14 80:20 81:12
214:1 215:14 64:23,25 65:4 152:6,13,17,25 219:3 222:9 136:11 139:2
218:6 235:10 65:22 67:15 153:24 154:12 223:18 224:15 154:2 157:5
235:23 236:6 68:13 69:3,18 154:23 155:5,7 224:20 225:8 rounded 136:14
result 41:2 59:1 70:19,20,22 156:13 157:2,6 225:20,24 routine 199:21
192:14 206:11 71:9 72:5 157:13,15 226:9,16,25 199:22 200:22
247:16 73:18,20 74:8 158:1,7,12,15 228:13,20 200:25 201:5
results 40:14,22 74:19 76:7,20 158:17,24 229:23 230:12 203:9
59:4 106:19 80:17,25 81:4 159:1,12,21 231:21 232:1 Row 224:15
112:19,21 84:11 85:17 160:6 162:2,8 232:16 233:24 RPR 1:24 5:22
131:19 161:10 89:20 91:5,8 162:16 163:16 233:25 234:2 247:2,24
162:24 174:24 91:23 93:10,25 164:3,22 165:1 235:17,19,24 rule 7:1
175:4 223:10 94:3,11,25 165:12 166:3 236:4 237:19 rules 5:6 7:11
226:23 95:5 96:10,19 166:16,24 237:21 238:2,4 run 30:15,18
retained 14:18 97:7 99:6,23 167:5,11,16 238:7,17 59:6,10,15
15:1 161:21 103:5,14 104:9 168:22 173:3 239:11,14,19 225:7 232:13
return 126:22 104:14,22 174:10,15 240:25 241:3 232:14
review 10:15 106:9 107:2,3 175:7,12 176:1 241:13 243:4 running 41:19
36:17,20 107:5,7,20 178:13,17,19 243:25 244:6 runoff 164:2,8,9
127:22 128:3 108:6,11,17 178:21 179:1,5 rim 77:18 90:9 164:13,19,23
128:14 110:4 111:10 179:17,25 rise 105:14 runs 180:5
reviewed 19:9 112:7,11 180:4,16 182:1 136:17 205:7 run-up 244:13
127:7,9 113:17 114:21 182:2,9,11 230:2 RUPERT 3:5
reviewing 10:10 115:8,20,22 183:14,22 rises 151:25 résumé 23:20
RICHTER 2:14 116:9,13,22 184:3,8,10,18 rising 43:24 44:1 24:5 25:1
ridge 65:17 117:25 118:8 185:1,8,9 46:2 107:19 49:23
ridges 104:6 118:21,22,24 186:11 187:8 River 71:2 90:17
right 6:11,13 8:9 121:13,20 188:1,14 189:7 90:18,20 S
8:10,11,25 123:7,19 189:10,22 102:14 103:19 s 4:16 5:1 53:16
12:11,17 14:1 124:15 125:4 190:9 192:1,11 143:16,23 53:17,17 54:15
15:14 16:12 126:21 127:19 194:3,5,11 147:1 156:2 55:10,14,20

Page 273
56:10,20 83:11 scenario 29:2,9 184:17 187:19 116:9 146:15 26:17 27:18
96:14 128:14 29:14,15,17,17 212:20 215:19 155:14,23 64:4 70:1
128:24,25 29:21,24 30:2 220:7 226:25 156:3,4 201:22 101:11 105:15
186:13 191:2 30:6,7,9,21 233:11 235:20 202:1,1 213:6 105:17 110:14
197:21 199:11 61:4,5 135:8 sections 54:1 separated 111:13 115:21
215:19 217:22 136:5 193:6,12 158:9 173:7 138:18 120:1,4 137:10
217:25 218:20 194:3,3,9,10 215:18,20 separating 43:4 148:10 150:12
219:23 220:16 194:15,15,21 see 7:22 10:15 sequence 23:7 168:23,25
221:7 194:21 195:10 18:3,8,14,21 32:14 58:17 182:15,19
safe 46:22 47:11 195:11 196:14 24:11 26:15 109:16,17 215:12
sake 129:13 196:20,21 37:21 47:9 sequences 30:25 showed 80:22
228:12 197:6,7,15,18 60:24 63:6,8 sequencing 81:20 120:21
salary 13:24 223:20,21 64:5 75:25 57:11 58:20 178:8 208:25
samples 106:7 225:7,23 76:4,7,12 served 25:7 showing 149:25
sat 54:14 219:15 scenarios 34:6 89:16 91:6 Service 172:14 221:6
save 5:8,11 61:1 126:16 99:19 103:12 services 25:4 shown 68:18
saw 19:25 20:6 129:3 160:5 111:22,25 set 99:4 105:8 133:10 182:5
saying 25:19 191:25 192:5 112:1 117:25 107:15 140:12 185:10 194:25
62:4 67:5 90:3 192:11,25 122:23 124:7 176:22 189:25 207:23 235:15
149:1 167:18 195:18,24 140:22 144:13 193:5,7,11 shows 26:11
202:24 211:6 196:8,10 148:19 152:8 238:1 247:7 58:17 69:23
214:3 223:21 238:1 152:14,16 sets 189:20 90:14 123:10
says 17:4 24:8 243:15 154:19 161:17 setting 242:10 150:13 178:18
39:21 60:22 scheme 160:9 162:6,24 168:1 243:7 179:8 182:20
61:2,6 63:18 school 16:10 168:2 169:7 setup 46:11,13 182:21 185:13
63:21 64:18 science 107:17 181:15 194:11 46:24 47:13 203:11
65:4 70:6 screen 76:11 202:3 208:8 190:20,23,25 shrubs 65:18
86:12 87:16 211:14 221:7 211:20 214:24 191:7,15,18 226:21
88:6 93:11 scroll 214:22 217:6 223:12 244:14 Shucks 69:15
115:9 119:18 215:8 216:5,16 223:16 230:24 set-up 191:11 side 80:6 111:19
135:4 158:6 se 21:1 231:7 232:17 seven 119:17 138:6,7 220:3
171:8,10,13 sea 150:22 237:15 120:18 154:2 242:8
173:14 182:6 187:19 199:20 seeing 71:4 175:6,9,10,11 Signed 246:11
182:11 198:11 204:11 73:21 184:22 185:8,9 246:13,15
199:20 200:11 second 24:12 seen 16:22 17:9 214:23 significant 40:21
200:20 205:9 35:13 49:7 17:24 18:5 seventeen 40:23 70:15
205:10 213:21 73:14 76:3 19:14 76:17 129:16,17,20 89:4 111:3
213:24 214:20 93:4 100:21 selected 182:20 130:9,21 131:8 115:4 125:5,14
214:21 215:18 102:10,10 182:23 shaded 104:5 125:18,20
216:21,25 119:22 129:3 sense 49:9 67:6 145:2 155:20 126:1 190:10
217:2,11 169:2 172:12 94:13 231:4 shades 211:24 signing 5:9
218:22 223:24 176:19 sentence 7:17 share 7:12 14:7 similar 96:8,8
224:16 225:6 section 64:24 109:18 111:6 SHER 2:14 195:13 196:21
229:23 232:4 66:8,18 71:5 119:18 198:11 short 105:9 196:25 197:2,3
233:24 235:10 72:6 73:21 199:15 shorthand 247:9 217:9 234:3
235:21 237:16 93:2 94:15 separate 14:13 shortly 162:13 235:9,13
237:23 106:19 113:14 102:11 107:2 show 19:18 26:9 simplified 28:12

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simply 45:18 108:7,10,16 205:1,3,8 snapshots 30:25 233:8 239:3
163:2 109:1,22 110:5 206:10,22 62:15 south 90:22,23
simulated 170:9 110:9 111:9 208:6,18,24 SOBEK 161:7 95:8 100:22
simulation 113:17,20 212:1,5,10,16 somebody 122:1,5,7
132:25 209:1 116:5,12,16 212:25 213:4,8 220:17 125:22 133:6
simulations 117:8,10 118:5 213:16 219:9 someplace 62:20 133:13 135:12
105:21 106:1 118:11 119:8 220:11,19 sorry 20:10,12 135:15,19,21
161:6 223:20 119:21 120:3 225:12 228:19 47:18 52:25 147:24 152:25
sir 6:25 10:22 120:24 121:21 232:19 234:1 55:20 61:18 153:2,4,6,22
11:13 12:16,22 121:23 123:20 235:2 236:5,10 70:21 74:2 154:3 173:10
13:25 14:16,20 126:20 129:7 237:1,20 238:3 87:6 93:8 185:21 186:8,9
14:22,24 17:1 132:5,14 135:2 238:15,24 99:17 112:20 186:10,14,23
17:11,19 22:15 135:17,23 239:5 240:14 135:21 139:12 187:15 188:1
23:5,12,15 136:3,7,21 240:19 241:4 149:21 204:19 195:1 206:16
24:2,6,13 25:2 137:1,15 138:5 243:24 204:21 232:14 206:25 208:22
25:6,14,23 138:8,23 139:3 sit 52:14 sort 16:18 21:8 212:8 216:25
26:2,4,8 27:6,9 139:7,15,17 site 51:23 29:18 46:5 217:11 218:10
27:15 28:16 140:7,11,18,20 six 60:8 75:16 57:4,7 63:1,14 218:23 220:3,5
31:3 32:10 141:13,13,16 99:9 167:19,21 63:25 64:6 229:24 230:6
33:22 34:1,20 141:19 142:18 184:22 202:7 65:18 67:7 235:22
35:8 36:12,16 143:1 144:3,14 sixteen 17:8 77:15 79:2 southern 95:3
36:19,22 39:11 144:18,24 152:3 86:19 87:17 97:23
39:23 40:10 147:7,12 skimmed 54:22 94:14 107:15 span 171:4
41:5,16,22 148:14 150:21 56:4 127:25 116:24 126:6 speak 8:1 17:17
42:14 45:1,6 152:5,16 153:8 128:4,7,15 157:19 160:23 speaking 58:23
45:11,20 46:10 153:23 156:20 skipped 70:21 167:24 202:17 58:25 62:4
48:14 49:13 157:1,7,14 slide 72:5 73:19 202:19 207:17 77:19 113:11
50:6,21 51:9 158:3,8,11,14 74:8,9,20,24 233:2 specific 100:9
52:16 54:11,19 160:8 165:20 94:22 98:20,20 sought 5:15 113:13,14
55:12 56:12,14 165:22 167:1 101:9,10 source 27:22 125:8 128:5
60:3,12 65:21 172:15,25 103:14 111:13 30:24 31:4,24 134:9 173:11
66:19 67:4,16 173:4,13 111:13 115:24 65:8 69:1 173:22 193:4
68:16,25 69:24 174:11,18,22 120:4 133:2,10 71:22 72:10,16 specifically 5:10
70:12 71:7,8 175:13,19,22 145:5,7 185:11 78:12 81:21 85:1 88:22
72:8 73:24 179:3,24 slides 23:11 76:2 82:4,15,17 134:20 168:19
76:14,19 77:9 181:11,19,25 89:15,24 105:3 83:4 84:6 spectrum 124:13
79:23 80:10 182:4,10 183:5 slight 173:16 98:15 100:10 spike 151:21
82:14 85:16,16 183:8,15,21 174:20 100:16 102:20 spiritual 39:20
85:21 88:5 184:11,19,21 slow 8:6 117:25 103:7 109:23 split 40:16
92:1 93:17,20 184:25 185:7 small 88:7,18 112:11 113:5 196:17
93:23 94:1,12 185:15,18,22 191:24 192:10 158:4 160:17 spoken 7:17
95:6,10 96:20 186:12,20 192:18 193:18 163:9 171:16 sponsor 13:5
97:6 98:18 187:1,12,21 smaller 186:16 239:2,8 244:3 14:4
99:5 101:23 188:20 190:8 207:22 sources 65:9 spot 126:13,22
104:8,13,16,20 194:18 201:7 smart 42:1 82:22 88:7 217:2
105:7,10 106:3 203:13,16,22 Smith 234:15 140:21 144:10 spread 103:22

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103:22 104:21 47:19,24 48:6 3:2 20:14,16 154:10 156:21 70:14 83:16
Spring 6:2 79:25 93:11,14 92:19 163:18 166:1 168:8 straighten 7:22
square 63:24 95:12 148:12 station 3:7 27:3 169:16,20,25 Streams 50:8
64:5,20 67:18 196:12 184:6 185:24 170:15,22,24 Street 1:12 2:10
141:12,22 stand 63:9 187:10 198:25 176:9,11,14,18 2:17
142:3,5,6,7 163:22 203:15 204:11 197:22 198:2 streets 150:25
143:5,9 144:6 standing 151:11 stations 26:11 210:12,22 stretch 188:13
144:6 157:5,12 151:12 88:24 184:14 211:5,10 214:6 strongly 236:22
157:18 182:8 standpoint 185:3 214:11,15,19 structure 21:20
189:5 55:17 175:2 status 68:10 92:2 215:10,17 21:23 45:18,19
squares 187:25 start 7:14 43:15 158:17 218:1,9 221:5 structures
St 23:8 33:24 58:14 68:5 stay 69:8 89:6 224:22 225:5 189:13 223:3
34:5,18 40:2,9 76:8,15 84:3 stays 69:10 237:10 239:22 studied 165:4,9
57:8,12 58:22 90:8 106:25 steady 45:10 242:7,15 243:3 studies 11:19
68:14 70:5 107:1 116:18 steer 93:2 STIPULATED study 42:14
78:18 79:9 209:22 211:17 step 15:5 199:24 5:2 56:18 128:16
83:4 88:8 237:16 201:14,15,21 stipulation 6:3 165:3,4,11,21
90:22 91:9 started 10:1 202:24 stop 7:21 34:11 172:2
93:19 99:23 31:22 36:23 Steve 53:20 77:12 91:6 stuff 18:23 34:13
104:11,23 38:8 80:6,19 55:24 217:21 103:15 106:16 44:11 54:14
105:5 108:9 81:9,9 82:24 218:6,8 stopped 211:21 172:17 200:1
131:20 141:5,7 125:6 127:4 Steven 1:10 6:1 232:25 211:25 218:18
141:9 142:25 133:23 168:12 9:3 14:9 246:3 stops 105:9 243:6
143:6,7,12,13 177:25 202:6 246:11 147:4 subbasin 156:22
143:19,23 202:19 209:19 Stevens 2:2,3 storm 12:1,2 172:12
144:1,16 146:4 224:1 235:4 3:20 4:5,18 6:6 21:21 44:5,15 subbasins 156:6
146:11,13,14 236:15 6:8 15:8,10 62:5,14 68:10 156:10,16
153:25 155:11 starting 58:8 17:2 18:1,12 68:10 87:10 157:25 158:4
155:24 156:6 73:7 79:3 18:20 19:2 91:24 92:3 159:24 227:7
156:23 157:5 91:15,18 99:15 20:19,24 21:6 107:19 113:22 231:13 232:5
157:10 159:15 99:20,22 24:3 28:3,5 114:21 126:4 subsection 84:5
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159:1 185:4,21 185:13,16,17 C 2:2,3 123:2 72:21 78:14,16 cases 21:12
185:21 186:9 185:19 186:5 124:14 216:25 79:2,8 96:25 169:8
186:14,14,21 186:16,16 217:11 218:2 100:14 107:7 catch 8:7 165:2
186:24 196:9 187:3,11 189:5 233:22,23 107:21 108:13 catchall 125:13
199:16,18,21 193:22 195:10 234:16 108:15 122:2 catching 206:12
199:22 201:2 195:23 196:2 CAHILL 2:14 126:16 127:3 206:12
201:22 202:5 198:8,9 199:8 calculate 40:1,6 129:3 132:10 category 222:15
202:12 203:10 201:5 204:22 77:21 81:17 133:12 138:7 cause 247:16
203:12,18 204:23 208:1,4 146:1,6 205:16 138:12,14,22 caused 44:17
204:6,20 206:5 208:15,21,23 205:17 206:2 138:25 139:22 136:16 161:21
206:16,17,21 209:2,7 212:7 231:18 237:22 147:21,22 191:12 235:23
206:25 207:8,9 213:2,8,14 239:16,24 148:6 149:3,9 causes 112:14
207:11 208:15 221:23 230:15 calculated 81:16 149:10 150:9 CCR 1:24 5:22
210:1,2,3,17 231:1 235:22 111:7 115:10 159:20 166:24 247:2,24
212:21,21 235:24,25 119:7 138:10 167:17,18 CD 18:6,6 19:5,7
216:25 217:1 237:7 238:9,20 156:11 171:19 185:21 206:16 19:13,15,16,21
217:11,14 239:4 238:5 239:12 208:23 209:4,8 20:20,25 21:9
218:11,11,23 breaching 38:25 calculation 210:17 212:9 26:3,22 57:9
218:23 229:24 39:1 115:2 190:21 201:16 212:14 213:7,9 58:16 168:10
230:7 241:3 221:21 236:23 202:2 213:14 218:12 center 62:8 64:2
breached 137:23 break 125:24 calculations 231:11 135:14 180:5
137:24 184:24 126:13,24 29:1 30:1 31:7 capable 108:25 central 29:2 30:3
184:25,25 200:2 31:9 231:14 capacity 13:3 48:19 58:21
220:6 bridges 10:14 calculator capital 10:3,18 64:2,9,11,13
breaches 1:4 Brief 168:7 142:21 11:7,18 24:18 66:11,24 67:2
44:19 83:14,15 237:9 239:21 calibration captioned 18:25 68:15,17 69:21

Page 5
77:22 78:1,12 230:11 clarified 31:17 combination comparing

79:10,14 81:7 changes 55:10 clarify 202:22 46:5 233:4 135:5,7,8
81:14,18 89:22 85:19,22 86:3 clarifying 31:15 238:20 136:1
89:25 90:6 203:5 246:6 CLARK 2:16 combined 47:25 comparison
91:6,11 95:15 changing 130:8 classification 145:1 93:11 132:7
98:21,23 99:7 channel 21:17 66:3 228:14,21 come 27:1 31:25 134:23 188:16
104:1 105:24 21:20 42:18,20 classifications 39:18 46:7 235:18
108:8 117:15 225:11,13 27:20,23 28:7 57:1 63:9 76:2 complete 130:12
131:18,21 channels 51:3 28:13 82:21 85:11 130:18
138:13 140:1 CHARLES 3:16 classify 228:13 126:13,22 completed 85:13
140:14 141:3 chart 134:21 clean 23:21 139:21 161:17 completely 91:8
143:2,6,11 136:9 140:23 cleaner 7:15 162:9 181:20 94:20
144:16 146:9 141:8 142:24 clear 30:7 39:16 230:20 233:5 compliance
146:21 167:6 145:5,18 146:8 clip 63:12 234:4 10:15
173:6 210:4,7 153:9,10 180:7 clocks 232:25 comes 48:18 complies 72:3
226:4,16,20 181:8,24 183:1 close 53:11 131:2 158:12 101:17 111:1
228:13 236:9 183:22 184:17 86:20 92:9 196:11 111:21 120:11
236:13 185:11 207:4 120:9 125:1 coming 49:12 composite 145:3
certain 14:5 212:17 213:24 196:24 230:24 62:12 73:23 compound 47:6
78:17 98:7 238:6 closely 163:5 74:5,11 78:4 computed 87:5
201:10 224:6 charts 18:23 227:6 229:25 80:23 103:20 computer 18:7
certainly 6:12 140:22 221:17 closer 76:9 153:5 103:21 107:19 18:15 39:25
7:23 check 17:13 coast 211:18,18 117:20 133:15 40:6 41:3,8
CERTIFICATE 216:22 232:17 coding 124:23 133:18 137:11 76:3 161:7
246:1 247:1 checked 215:21 coefficient 147:6 213:7 247:9
Certified 1:25 checks 14:11 228:22 231:11 223:13 concede 27:17
5:23 247:3,25 chief 9:11,21 231:17,20,22 committed 86:2 60:1
certify 246:4 10:5 11:5,6,11 231:24 232:1,2 common 87:18 concepts 42:8
247:4,13 11:15 coefficients communicatio... concern 48:3,6,9
cetera 58:15 choppy 7:19 228:17 19:4 48:11 49:11
114:19 160:24 church 86:20 coin 69:15 communities concerned 49:10
228:18 231:6 circle 71:11 72:1 collect 12:8,8 173:10 225:10
Chalmette 80:12 74:9 101:15,19 collected 161:5 community conclude 59:1
80:13,14 95:18 110:18,20 180:13,13 195:5 136:15 195:22
95:20 97:2,3 111:18 182:9 Collie 9:15,17 company 161:20 235:24
97:22,25 circles 41:4 color 100:8 compare 134:22 concluded 116:7
140:10 143:14 cited 27:11,12 124:23 172:16 135:10 161:15 138:24 163:2
143:15 179:21 27:13 colors 75:23 162:17 223:16 182:17
180:18 189:1 City 2:5 6:8 color's 124:24 223:22 concludes
213:11 225:9 Civil 1:4 3:3 5:6 column 135:9,14 compared 88:18 160:15
change 89:7 Civiltech 160:25 135:19,24 126:14,15 conclusion
131:9,10 148:6 161:9,16,19 203:17,23 161:9,18 112:12 113:5
192:14 193:15 162:20 163:9 204:6 205:9 162:24 163:2 159:19 236:21
221:13 228:9 Claiborne 122:2 223:24 224:15 185:5 189:17 conclusions
238:15 122:8 154:3 224:15 230:22 232:12 27:25 28:8
changed 70:24 178:19 179:18 columns 135:13 compares 224:9 36:6 46:23
182:18 230:9 claim 21:23 136:1 232:15 47:12 129:10

Page 6
129:19 175:21 35:2,20,25 32:20 141:18 66:18,23 69:22 29:17

235:20 consultants 22:5 141:21 70:18 72:7,8 counsel 5:3 19:4
concordance consultation convert 153:15 73:23 76:16 109:3 247:14
29:13 83:15 157:17 164:1 77:14 78:5 247:14
condition 61:3 consulted 34:22 converted 33:4 79:11 80:19 county 6:19 9:5
69:14 229:13 35:5 38:24 converting 81:11,12 84:17 9:8,10,20
conditions 34:6 contacted 14:25 142:12 85:20 91:10,14 10:16 11:2,12
223:24 224:12 15:6,15 conveyance 93:16 94:16 13:4,9,19 14:2
224:16,21 contained 23:11 42:17 100:23 101:22 14:8 21:14
225:2 244:2,4 27:25 28:14 coordinated 104:11,19 22:13 41:12
244:6,9,12 52:9 58:6 221:12 105:9 106:3,6 50:19 51:3
conduct 161:22 143:14 188:3 coordination 106:14,16,24 241:18,20
conducting context 45:24 11:20 107:9,21,23 couple 89:12
34:17 53:2 70:18 coordinator 108:15 113:23 133:1 143:20
confer 37:1 165:7 243:1 10:2,7 11:8 117:3 119:16 144:5 169:6
Confluence 50:8 continuation copies 17:13 120:16 121:14 199:18 211:24
confuse 7:20 104:10 27:11,19 28:18 122:5,21 123:9 course 10:18
confused 115:19 continue 106:1 58:3 126:18 128:25 23:14 136:8
119:9 149:8 118:25 146:24 copy 16:21,22 129:1,6 132:8 court 1:1,25
164:14 147:5 18:3,8 19:8 137:14 138:2 5:23 7:6 52:24
conjunction continued 22:9 23:18,22 140:20 143:24 247:3,25
168:17 105:14 147:9 23:24 24:25 146:20 147:6 crafting 56:8
connection 166:2,3 205:6 33:16 51:10 147:16 151:23 create 81:22,24
13:22 14:17 continues 147:5 148:25 156:14 152:4 153:19 168:10
15:1 23:13 179:22 core 40:13 155:13 163:19 created 23:9
25:12 103:1 continuing corner 63:15 163:24 166:5 25:22
242:3 103:22 64:1,6,8 167:4,12 168:1 creating 27:23
consider 146:2 continuous 26:5 151:22 172:19 173:17 crest 44:14,20
consideration contractors 22:5 Corps 12:15,18 175:2 181:5 44:24 45:8,19
46:25 47:14 contribute 88:7 12:21 13:1,6 183:20 187:20 86:6 101:25
considerations contributed 77:2 13:10,21,22,23 189:6,9 193:24 136:24 168:3,9
127:2 138:11 171:11 14:4,5,10,13 195:14 196:15 169:6,9,21
considered contributing 14:19 15:2,6 203:3 208:5,7 175:24 177:4
88:12 140:3 237:3 15:11 24:9,15 208:7 211:8 178:2,20 179:9
199:1 contributors 24:22 35:6 212:4 215:4 184:23 187:18
consistent 39:8 41:13 163:18 216:19 219:2,8 188:12 190:5
143:25 control 6:19 9:5 168:14 219:18 226:24 230:4 190:10,17
CONSOLIDA... 9:8,10,21 241:17 236:25 237:8 199:22 200:3,8
1:5 10:16 11:3,12 correct 12:15 238:15 243:21 215:21 220:3
consolidating 13:4,20 21:14 28:23 32:9 246:7 247:11 220:24 221:19
116:8 21:20,23 22:13 33:25 35:7 corrections 222:1 223:8
constitute 137:3 41:12 45:18 39:14,22 41:4 246:6,13,15 crests 190:12
constructed 50:19 241:18 44:6,13,18 correspond criterion/stan...
21:18 241:20 45:5,14 47:16 215:16 10:17
construction conversations 59:14,22,23 Correspondence critical 229:15
10:10 11:1 34:25 35:2 60:13 62:17,21 19:3 crossed 58:21
consult 34:18,21 conversion 62:22 65:20 corresponds crossing 186:23

Page 7
186:24 187:15 82:22 83:3,5,6 226:11 55:24 56:10,20 7:6 21:11

187:24,25 83:7,10 84:6,7 daylight 29:3 DELORIMIER 54:13
crossings 177:18 84:15 85:3,7,8 30:3 105:25 3:23 DEPO-VUE
crowns 190:12 85:8,14,19 days 33:3,5 55:7 demonstrated 3:23
crude 113:12 86:14 87:9,11 85:13 200:12 depth 63:20
157:19,21 87:21 98:16 deal 159:14 demonstrates 68:23 70:2,4,7
crudely 156:22 102:2 129:4,5 death 243:18 207:8 75:7,7 98:23
157:15 131:17 139:19 debatable 118:2 demonstrative 99:6 100:1,2
cubic 141:12,18 161:17 163:10 December 31:14 23:10 103:24,25
142:8,12,14,15 167:25 169:10 33:20 52:9,15 department 1:12 123:10 141:15
142:17,23 174:9,13 176:5 52:22 127:20 3:2 10:3,19,23 142:24 150:9
153:16 157:17 176:6 177:22 decisions 12:6 11:21 15:13,15 156:9 159:20
238:13,14 177:24,25 decrease 201:17 24:19 162:11 159:22 160:10
culmination 180:14 181:17 decreasing 234:11 185:4 186:13
76:25 77:5 181:20 188:18 201:18,19 departments 186:15 203:20
current 23:17 190:4,23,25 Dee 9:3 11:18 207:1 235:1
24:8,11,25 191:22 196:13 deep 75:24,24 depend 228:7,8 238:24 239:1
curriculum 196:20,21 114:22 131:19 228:9 depths 70:8
23:18 24:25 198:13,22,23 151:15,15 dependent 131:2 75:13 90:16
cut 87:6 199:2 205:22 159:14 203:24 depending 91:1 121:13
cuts 44:23 205:25 213:19 225:14,15 130:18 131:14 124:17,20
CV 6:17 12:25 213:20,22,25 deeper 75:11,15 160:5 175:15 125:1 145:13
23:17 214:14 216:3 75:16,22 115:4 190:15 202:7 145:15 159:23
CWU 64:11 216:14 219:18 186:19 204:2 depends 41:2 160:1,4,15,19
cycle 203:19 219:19 221:18 deepest 186:21 160:13 202:11 derived 221:24
221:25 222:6 defend 211:9 209:11 describe 13:19
D 222:11,13,14 defendants depict 177:2,4 43:6 46:12,21
D 1:10 4:1,6 6:1 222:17,17,19 162:6 depicted 148:21 49:9 70:24
79:22 246:3,11 223:5,6,14 defense 92:24 180:20 185:6 74:22 157:10
damage 51:2 239:8 243:9 define 42:4,8 depiction 183:23 described 28:21
dark 63:19 date 57:14 60:8 62:6 242:14 depicts 177:3 30:10 92:22
124:25 145:2 60:13,15 63:15 defined 28:20 179:7 207:6 143:3 180:6
211:23 246:8,11,25 44:19 62:20 depo 54:23 55:4 describes 30:21
darker 104:4,18 dated 33:19 52:9 93:14 136:22 55:5 127:8 describing 49:17
dashed 177:16 52:14 162:1 141:1 191:7 deponent 5:10 201:2 224:11
182:8 datum 56:16,18 defining 143:13 depose 7:24 description
data 19:12 39:9 56:20,21 143:18 deposition 1:10 45:17 46:12
39:22,24 40:4 173:15 188:3 definition 42:5 5:4,14 16:20 79:5 207:18
40:13,15,17,19 188:17,25 61:7 137:4 22:2,9 23:2 217:9 219:5,13
40:21,24 41:3 datums 56:3,6 definitions 7:25 53:5,7 54:14 223:24 224:11
41:7 63:21,22 56:10 42:6 43:16 54:16,20 55:3 224:14
64:18,24 65:5 David 79:22 139:24 140:4 55:10,14,20 descriptions
65:10,10,12,20 day 26:19 32:21 degradation 61:16 63:5 162:22 217:7
65:24 66:7 55:7 59:19 202:25 127:6,10,14 224:16
67:3,6,15,19 60:17 61:12 degrade 118:19 136:23 149:1 design 50:13,18
77:2,8 81:24 105:22 150:5 delivered 25:20 209:16 247:8 50:24,25 51:1
82:4,15,17,21 159:15 206:12 DeLoach 53:21 depositions 6:14 51:11,20

Page 8
designated diamond 182:7 183:10 186:8 63:7 108:25 dry 70:17

177:8 234:2 235:8 directly 14:11 190:24 191:9 ducks 69:7
designations difference 22:19 34:18 35:3 211:20 235:5 duly 6:4 247:6
207:7 42:12 45:23 158:13 223:1 DOJ 15:11 83:21 Dupre 80:16
designed 13:8 47:24 75:7 directory 19:19 127:21 97:4 167:11
70:1 225:7,24 92:18 129:18 disagree 55:19 dollars 16:11,12 179:20 186:2,7
226:2 244:1 129:22,23 discussed 36:10 Don 34:22 186:11,13
details 58:24 130:21 131:19 discussion downgrade 208:16,21
detention 51:3 152:4 160:11 129:14 176:21 201:12 duration 62:19
determine 27:20 182:16,20,22 228:12 downgrades 152:2,6 171:3
40:18 61:1 190:18 192:19 discussions 199:23 200:3,8 198:12 199:7
124:16 138:19 194:2,4,7,11 52:11 Dr 32:5,5,8 35:9 199:24 221:22
163:8 189:21 194:14,16,20 disk 26:17 35:20 36:14,14 221:23
222:7 243:16 225:16 226:22 167:24 169:14 37:16,22 39:4 duties 9:25
determined 228:21 229:1 170:7,17 49:24 53:16,17 11:14
92:19,20 differences 197:12 213:21 53:17 55:20 DUVAL 1:6
114:20 162:19 173:16 174:19 dispute 55:19 77:1,1,1,6 D-E-E 9:3
172:13 174:7 191:24 192:4 distance 54:15 83:11,13 85:6 D.C 3:8
187:24 188:10 192:10 193:1 distinguish 85:6,12 92:5
230:7 231:22 193:14,18 140:16 146:18 98:17 129:6 E
determines different 8:2 236:19 181:6 191:1,2 E 2:10 4:1,1,6,6
159:14 201:5 13:9,17 34:6,6 district 1:1,2 192:22 198:1,4 4:16,16 217:14
determining 43:17 70:4 6:19 9:5,8,10 228:1,23,24 218:2
198:9 76:12 83:25 9:21 11:3,12 240:24 244:15 earlier 13:7 55:5
develop 158:23 86:7,10 96:12 13:5,20 21:14 244:15,16 83:9 93:15
161:7 97:18 126:16 22:13 41:12 draft 217:18,22 94:20 107:6
developed 37:17 163:6 164:7,9 50:20 51:22 217:24 218:7 114:1 138:10
56:17,22 84:16 169:5,6 172:19 241:18,20 drafts 19:6 143:3,4 146:1
98:4 102:23 182:23 192:3 divided 156:5 36:17,21 157:3 158:25
114:24 144:7 192:19,24,25 DIVISION 3:3 drainage 10:11 170:1 208:25
144:17 146:3 193:7,9,10 Doc 176:23 11:22 35:6 209:22 210:1
155:15,25 200:7 221:14 document 51:6 37:19,24,25 222:10 226:10
156:24 157:8 223:12,23 169:13 214:10 39:2 84:10,12 239:18
157:11 160:25 237:22,25 215:9,15 84:13,19 85:4 early 7:25 15:20
163:17 166:17 239:25 217:20 218:6 127:18 226:8 136:22 140:5
166:22 167:12 difficult 19:18 219:1 226:12 202:16 204:16
172:1,10 173:7 99:15,19 100:8 documentation drained 119:3,5 ease 176:21
195:1,10,23 digital 205:22 28:25 32:23 121:22 easier 177:14
198:18 232:10 dimension 45:4 33:9 draining 51:4 east 80:6 99:23
240:21 dimensions documented draw 74:11,14 99:25 123:1,3
development 225:10 172:8 110:23 111:19 124:13 217:11
51:4,4 196:10 dips 187:15 documents drawings 10:10 234:24 235:1
developments direct 50:10 17:14 19:8 11:1 EASTERN 1:2
10:12 directed 178:4 20:17 27:11 Drive 6:2 eastward 91:16
diagram 26:11 direction 147:14 29:25 32:19 dropping 170:6 91:17 103:23
185:10 147:14 165:5 doing 32:22 Drs 37:1,13 Ebersole 32:5
diagrams 18:23 165:11,13 39:18 43:14 40:20 34:22 35:20

Page 9
37:1,13 38:1,3 132:13,24 176:3 178:2,18 53:12 120:10 227:1

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38:24 39:7 147:10,13 182:25 183:25 241:9 equal 174:25
40:20 53:16 172:6 177:4 184:1 189:16 engineers 7:24 175:5
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84:20 127:9 240:17 192:10 193:14 12:21 13:2,6,7 231:15
168:17 178:3 elements 83:25 194:9,10 13:10,21,23 error 60:1 92:7
181:6,6 198:6 elevation 44:15 200:11,17 14:4,6,10,13 173:19,25,25
198:8 199:10 44:17,20,21,25 215:2,21 219:6 14:19 15:2 174:24 175:5
199:11 200:19 45:5,9 65:16 220:24 221:19 24:9,22 35:7 175:16
213:21,24 101:25 102:17 222:8 223:3,8 39:15 41:13 ESQ 3:12,16,17
214:20 217:22 102:22 121:15 223:14 230:1 42:3 62:2 3:18,19,20
217:25 218:14 121:17,18 232:10,15 69:16 130:3 ESQUIRE 2:3,9
218:20,22 134:24 136:18 236:1,24 241:3 163:18 168:15 2:16 3:4,5
219:15,21,23 136:24 151:1,6 243:16 196:25 219:18 establish 210:13
219:25 220:15 154:16,17,18 eleven 11:10 241:17 221:19 223:2
220:16 221:7 158:17,21 116:7,9 117:5 English 175:8 established
221:12 227:21 159:3,6 177:4 118:23 121:10 enlarge 183:17 118:19 133:4
241:2 244:9,16 178:20 179:9 136:11 139:2 enlargements establishing
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218:19 184:9,20 185:5 183:18 185:9 enter 73:8 estimate 16:6
edge 188:1 185:6 186:18 185:16 202:6 181:17 237:24 38:25 172:23
202:20 196:6 197:7 202:16 207:8,9 240:2 205:15 206:8
educable 8:6 198:11 199:23 207:13 entered 32:4 206:24
118:1 199:23 200:3,4 eliminated 141:3,5,6,9 estimated
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147:17 201:10,11,11 ELISA 2:9 3:18 225:3 239:13 171:12 173:1
effect 89:20 201:17,20 Elwood 2:2,3 240:11,12,18 198:12 239:7
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108:19 130:5,6 203:21,21,24 employed 9:7 133:11 estimating 199:7
130:9,17 204:3,7,9 174:1 enterprise 41:15 estimation 66:15
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effort 17:13 213:22,25 145:2 202:6 23:22 64:9 205:14,21
50:21,22,23 214:21 220:3 217:23,24 77:17 79:1 229:7
82:25 102:24 229:12,24 235:5 238:23 115:8,16 estimations
efforts 76:25 230:6 232:9 ends 42:17 116:14 119:20 66:16
77:6 elevations 26:20 engagement 119:23 120:6 et 58:14 114:19
eight 98:19,20 61:2 66:1 86:6 18:4,9 37:10 120:14,15,18 160:24 228:17
99:9,15 100:21 87:2,4 93:13 engineer 9:11,19 131:21 133:8 231:6
158:22 93:21 95:20 9:21 10:5 11:6 143:9 144:15 evaluate 34:3,4
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44:23 75:24 161:10 162:18 39:21 65:23 212:23 236:8 62:19 70:15
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109:10 128:23 169:9 175:24 10:24,25 34:13 entitled 50:2 121:24 122:22

Page 10
events 23:8 176:11,18 233:18,19 eyewitness 161:5 fast 60:4 89:20

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Page 14
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Page 17
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Page 18
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Page 19
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Page 20
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Page 21
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P 230:4 patience 189:23 87:18 96:1 127:12,23
P 5:1 parens 171:13 patient 244:19 period 21:19 176:12 233:21
page 4:3,8 17:6 Paris 109:15,20 Paul 128:11,23 61:25 171:2,5 233:25 234:5,7
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Page 22
63:11 67:21 138:19,21 36:17,20 175:23 179:5,8,9

76:4,5 77:11 146:4,7,10 preparation printed 26:10 181:8 182:2,4
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122:24 244:20 11:4 24:15 25:24,25 76:21 126:12 128:13 program 12:17
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plots 169:21 positions 9:24 127:15,21 153:5 207:20 24:8,15
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plug 193:5,7 162:10 128:7 13:15 14:8 21:18
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plus 153:22 191:23 227:19 presentation 43:10 164:16 13:5,8,12,12
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point 12:18 post-hurricane 126:12 136:9 27:19 28:18 pronounce
33:12 64:2 180:1 152:21 209:2 33:8 102:25 127:16
68:11 69:19 post-Katrina previous 6:18 244:23 proper 225:19
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90:7 100:3,11 219:7 221:11 180:1,3 18:18 19:14 219:17
102:9 122:20 222:6 pre-Katrina 25:13,16,19,20 protective 223:3
122:24 133:5 post-storm 178:9,15 25:21 26:22 protects 137:17
145:17 152:24 185:6 189:18 221:25 27:10 37:20 provide 11:16
184:23 186:3 pouring 202:19 222:6 49:19 51:23 12:4 32:19
188:25 201:12 Poydras 1:12 pre-MRGO 218:18 106:6 123:17
212:2 240:17 2:17 244:1 production provided 34:7
pointed 199:17 practice 88:20 pre-storm 197:17 37:23 38:1,11
pointer 64:8 pre 169:21 188:9 215:23 216:18 profession 88:20 39:3,9,11,12
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policy 13:14 predominant primary 10:22 Professor 54:25 192:23 197:13
popular 130:4 237:2 39:8,9 46:25 55:1,9,13,21 198:8 219:25
portion 13:24 preexisting 46:25 47:14 127:11 128:24 public 10:13
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Page 23
49:19,20 51:17 P.O 3:6 238:18 120:6,14,15,18 153:10 157:3

published 49:18 quickly 151:25 133:8 154:14 165:16,18
50:12 Q quite 174:13 159:2 160:19 187:25 191:8
pull 17:13 63:12 quality 41:2,3 Quiz 86:1 167:10 177:6 191:17 200:1
pulled 156:11 86:15 quote 164:12 179:1 183:13 202:21 207:21
pulling 169:13 quantify 129:25 185:10,24 209:21 229:1
pump 88:24 89:2 130:5 148:8 R 186:1 203:14 243:18
167:21 210:23 R 4:16,16,16 207:7 216:11 reason 8:3 56:13
pumped 166:14 quantity 88:18 radar 12:3 172:4 reached 46:24 107:18 191:22
166:20 quarters 175:20 172:6,10,13,16 47:13 119:1 235:6
pumps 88:11,23 question 5:12 172:17 239:7 129:19 152:12 reasonable
89:1,2 7:14,18,20 rain 12:2 68:13 154:5 158:16 169:7
purely 92:6 8:17,19,20,21 171:17 172:7 158:21 196:6 reasons 173:18
purpose 177:3 8:23 12:19 172:19 173:11 202:5 205:24 recalculating
purposes 5:5 20:4 24:7 27:6 173:15 174:13 reaches 177:8 174:21
29:23 30:13 28:11 29:4,23 rainfall 42:15 179:10 201:10 recall 33:11 37:6
32:22 60:10 30:22 31:6,18 69:19 71:14,25 202:11 51:18 92:7
83:20 178:14 33:7 38:9 72:18 73:24,25 reaching 123:11 93:1 126:8
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202:22 209:17 56:9 59:8,13 140:24 144:11 read 12:24 53:8 receded 167:5
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226:11 235:18 70:6 71:18 153:13 164:1,8 54:2,20 55:16 receive 102:15
pursuant 5:7 77:4,25 78:8 164:9,13,19,23 55:19,22 received 86:8
purview 226:7 79:4,13 81:23 171:1,8,9,11 110:24 127:7 91:10 171:9
push 174:16 82:8 87:24 172:6,8,12,13 150:4 172:3 234:11
put 11:1 37:24 100:15 106:13 172:18,22 212:18 214:24 recess 168:7
39:1 48:10 107:13,15 173:2,5,7 219:10 220:1 237:9
57:6 59:12,25 114:6 116:20 238:8 239:6 reading 5:8 recharge 146:24
65:1 66:13 117:11 118:13 raining 69:5 31:11 53:3,4 147:2
67:17 74:10,15 122:4 125:13 rainwater 91:9 219:12 recollection 73:4
86:7 94:21 125:15 138:16 raise 188:12 reads 7:19 74:4 92:4,6
112:1 115:14 146:5 149:8 216:2 164:12 96:3 102:2
126:2 170:8,16 150:7 154:22 raised 215:22 ready 211:19 111:16 128:6
184:4 203:9 169:12 172:5 raising 130:7 real 18:2 30:15 record 8:15 9:1
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putting 146:24 225:20 238:18 243:15 225:6 232:13 170:14,21
242:21 242:1,25 range 99:10 232:14 238:18 214:18
P.E 1:11 6:1 questions 6:10 100:4 167:19 realistic 161:8 recorded 172:8
246:3,11 6:11 8:7,9,11 rapid 136:16 230:19 records 71:24
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76:16 94:4,5,6 114:8 115:18 201:17 229:19 227:3,14 228:5 recovery 12:7
94:9 95:5 244:21,22 229:20 231:22 reality 230:18 red 50:12 67:1
105:5,15,16 245:1 reach 97:13,13 really 45:3 46:17 67:12,18 71:9
123:23 124:9 quick 18:3 63:14 115:8,17 48:17 75:25 72:2 74:9
125:7 92:15 103:12 119:20,23 135:5 145:12 101:12 172:18

Page 24
redacted 213:22 refined 86:5 218:2 117:7 119:24 247:1

213:25 214:21 169:8 repaired 187:7 121:25 122:23 reports 10:25
214:22 217:2,5 reflected 41:7 repeat 12:19 123:2,16,22 11:23 33:21
217:15,18 regard 36:2,3,5 20:4 27:17 124:3,8,18 36:21 53:4,8
redactions 125:18 143:2 28:11 40:3 125:21 126:2 53:15,18,20,24
217:19 173:14 220:1 47:22 48:22 127:20,21,24 83:6,8 84:7
reduced 184:18 244:13 71:18 78:8 128:8,17,19,20 85:20,23 123:6
reduction 51:2 regardless 100:15 107:13 128:22,24,25 127:12,15,23
231:23 160:16 192:7 133:21 134:1 128:15 156:8
redundant 27:16 relate 207:13 repeating 134:21 143:4 160:22 161:5
refer 42:21 related 18:17,24 226:10 143:25 145:8 232:14
43:20 69:10 20:17 22:2 rephrase 77:4 145:15 154:20 represent 57:11
72:11,12 79:15 42:22 52:4,23 114:6 138:16 155:18 156:16 184:5 225:2
110:13 126:9 52:24 175:16 154:22 157:2 158:13 227:19
164:7,11 232:8 247:14 report 18:18,22 159:23 160:15 representation
reference 27:22 relates 66:24 19:6,12,22,23 160:20,25 58:19 59:9,15
32:18 50:17 244:8 20:1,8,18 23:4 161:11,13,14 59:18 65:25
83:7 123:22 relationship 23:11,19,22,24 161:16 162:1,5 75:10,14 231:2
128:23 164:16 14:3 52:6 24:24 25:13,17 162:9,10,11,21 231:25
referenced relative 163:5,5 25:24 26:1,21 163:9,16 representations
25:11 26:25 244:12 26:24,25 27:7 164:12 167:25 105:18
27:8,11 83:5 relatively 88:7 27:8,12,13,14 168:2,4,19 representative
109:5 113:19 relevance 50:9 27:23,24,25 171:3 172:3,9 230:18
123:16 124:8 50:10 28:9,10,15 177:9 178:11 represented
references 125:7 relevant 50:5 30:10 31:14 178:14 183:17 58:19 227:2,14
128:22 51:25 33:18,19,23 183:19,20 228:5
referred 35:5 reliance 218:5 34:16 35:16 188:3 190:3 representing 2:1
65:19 103:3 relied 19:9 26:20 36:6,18 40:12 192:5 193:19 3:1 10:12,13
198:10 223:6,7 27:13,20 28:19 42:2,6 52:9,14 193:19 195:4 request 25:3
referring 35:15 77:3 98:9 52:21,23,25 197:21 198:1,7 170:13,16,21
44:4 57:18 129:5 217:21 53:1,16 55:25 198:20 207:4 required 17:24
62:10 71:6 218:8,24 222:1 56:7 58:6,13 208:1 213:18 206:4,21
72:2 80:8,10 rely 28:6,20 60:21 61:17 213:20 217:23 requires 7:1
80:12 90:10 190:24 218:10 66:17 72:11,23 217:25 218:19 reread 53:9
95:14 97:1 remain 132:11 73:12,13,14 218:21 223:7 reserved 5:13
116:10 130:15 remains 45:9 80:13 83:6,18 224:24 226:25 Resio 32:8 34:23
130:16 150:6 remember 15:23 83:20 84:2,3 232:7,8,9,24 36:14,14 37:2
153:17 156:17 21:4 22:24 85:4,10,14,18 235:11,14,20 37:13,22 39:7
164:17 165:7 31:1 35:12 86:10,17 92:14 237:13 239:9 40:20 53:17
169:22 182:12 37:8 50:16 93:3 94:11 reported 1:23 54:6 77:1,7
197:11 198:23 53:10 80:20 97:24 103:1,3 85:20,23 94:9 83:13,20,23
225:25 226:3 84:23,24 92:25 103:6,7 105:4 95:4 98:13 84:20 85:6,9
226:13 229:8 128:2 162:15 105:12,21,24 162:22 193:19 85:12,15
229:10 241:23 188:14 196:1 106:12,18 208:10 232:23 127:10 191:1,2
242:20 219:16 220:22 109:13,17 Reporter 1:25 196:12 198:6
refers 44:1 56:21 reminds 16:18 111:3 113:19 5:23 247:3,25 227:22 228:1,2
56:22 removed 213:23 115:9 116:1 REPORTER'S 228:24 240:24

Page 25
244:10,15 17:16,20 21:7 129:8 130:23 195:3 196:16 157:11 179:11

resolved 8:17 22:20 23:3,16 133:6 134:14 198:5,11 199:3 179:13,23
resources 41:25 24:5,14 26:16 135:6,11,12,25 200:19 201:4 road 49:16
43:5,10,12 27:13,16 28:24 136:4,22 202:13 203:12 109:15,20
responsibilities 30:18,20 31:2 137:16 138:9 203:14,15,23 110:4,6,11,19
9:25 11:15 32:17 33:13 139:6,22 204:2,5,10,12 110:25 123:1,3
14:5 34:2 35:4 141:12,17,25 204:14 205:4,7 124:13 179:19
responsibility 36:13 38:6 142:5,8,11,15 205:9,22 206:2 roads 10:14
84:25 41:6 44:6,16 142:19 143:17 206:18 207:10 roadways 51:5
responsible 44:25 45:7,18 144:4,9,13,15 207:25 208:14 ROBERT 3:12
10:10 47:21 48:9,11 144:19 145:11 208:17,23 Robinson 1:7
responsiveness 48:12,15 49:18 145:14,17,21 209:14 210:9 234:21,22
5:12 50:11 51:24 145:23 146:21 211:18,24 RODGERS 3:19
rest 78:18 53:6 55:13 147:8,15,17 212:2,9,11,24 roles 13:9
131:14 166:14 59:20,24 60:19 148:10,13,15 213:3,7 214:23 roll 77:13
166:16,21 61:5 62:22 148:24 149:3 215:1,24 roughly 78:25
186:19 205:6 63:14,15 64:6 150:15 151:20 216:23 217:14 80:20 81:12
214:1 215:14 64:23,25 65:4 152:6,13,17,25 219:3 222:9 136:11 139:2
218:6 235:10 65:22 67:15 153:24 154:12 223:18 224:15 154:2 157:5
235:23 236:6 68:13 69:3,18 154:23 155:5,7 224:20 225:8 rounded 136:14
result 41:2 59:1 70:19,20,22 156:13 157:2,6 225:20,24 routine 199:21
192:14 206:11 71:9 72:5 157:13,15 226:9,16,25 199:22 200:22
247:16 73:18,20 74:8 158:1,7,12,15 228:13,20 200:25 201:5
results 40:14,22 74:19 76:7,20 158:17,24 229:23 230:12 203:9
59:4 106:19 80:17,25 81:4 159:1,12,21 231:21 232:1 Row 224:15
112:19,21 84:11 85:17 160:6 162:2,8 232:16 233:24 RPR 1:24 5:22
131:19 161:10 89:20 91:5,8 162:16 163:16 233:25 234:2 247:2,24
162:24 174:24 91:23 93:10,25 164:3,22 165:1 235:17,19,24 rule 7:1
175:4 223:10 94:3,11,25 165:12 166:3 236:4 237:19 rules 5:6 7:11
226:23 95:5 96:10,19 166:16,24 237:21 238:2,4 run 30:15,18
retained 14:18 97:7 99:6,23 167:5,11,16 238:7,17 59:6,10,15
15:1 161:21 103:5,14 104:9 168:22 173:3 239:11,14,19 225:7 232:13
return 126:22 104:14,22 174:10,15 240:25 241:3 232:14
review 10:15 106:9 107:2,3 175:7,12 176:1 241:13 243:4 running 41:19
36:17,20 107:5,7,20 178:13,17,19 243:25 244:6 runoff 164:2,8,9
127:22 128:3 108:6,11,17 178:21 179:1,5 rim 77:18 90:9 164:13,19,23
128:14 110:4 111:10 179:17,25 rise 105:14 runs 180:5
reviewed 19:9 112:7,11 180:4,16 182:1 136:17 205:7 run-up 244:13
127:7,9 113:17 114:21 182:2,9,11 230:2 RUPERT 3:5
reviewing 10:10 115:8,20,22 183:14,22 rises 151:25 résumé 23:20
RICHTER 2:14 116:9,13,22 184:3,8,10,18 rising 43:24 44:1 24:5 25:1
ridge 65:17 117:25 118:8 185:1,8,9 46:2 107:19 49:23
ridges 104:6 118:21,22,24 186:11 187:8 River 71:2 90:17
right 6:11,13 8:9 121:13,20 188:1,14 189:7 90:18,20 S
8:10,11,25 123:7,19 189:10,22 102:14 103:19 s 4:16 5:1 53:16
12:11,17 14:1 124:15 125:4 190:9 192:1,11 143:16,23 53:17,17 54:15
15:14 16:12 126:21 127:19 194:3,5,11 147:1 156:2 55:10,14,20

Page 26
56:10,20 83:11 scenario 29:2,9 184:17 187:19 116:9 146:15 26:17 27:18
96:14 128:14 29:14,15,17,17 212:20 215:19 155:14,23 64:4 70:1
128:24,25 29:21,24 30:2 220:7 226:25 156:3,4 201:22 101:11 105:15
186:13 191:2 30:6,7,9,21 233:11 235:20 202:1,1 213:6 105:17 110:14
197:21 199:11 61:4,5 135:8 sections 54:1 separated 111:13 115:21
215:19 217:22 136:5 193:6,12 158:9 173:7 138:18 120:1,4 137:10
217:25 218:20 194:3,3,9,10 215:18,20 separating 43:4 148:10 150:12
219:23 220:16 194:15,15,21 see 7:22 10:15 sequence 23:7 168:23,25
221:7 194:21 195:10 18:3,8,14,21 32:14 58:17 182:15,19
safe 46:22 47:11 195:11 196:14 24:11 26:15 109:16,17 215:12
sake 129:13 196:20,21 37:21 47:9 sequences 30:25 showed 80:22
228:12 197:6,7,15,18 60:24 63:6,8 sequencing 81:20 120:21
salary 13:24 223:20,21 64:5 75:25 57:11 58:20 178:8 208:25
samples 106:7 225:7,23 76:4,7,12 served 25:7 showing 149:25
sat 54:14 219:15 scenarios 34:6 89:16 91:6 Service 172:14 221:6
save 5:8,11 61:1 126:16 99:19 103:12 services 25:4 shown 68:18
saw 19:25 20:6 129:3 160:5 111:22,25 set 99:4 105:8 133:10 182:5
saying 25:19 191:25 192:5 112:1 117:25 107:15 140:12 185:10 194:25
62:4 67:5 90:3 192:11,25 122:23 124:7 176:22 189:25 207:23 235:15
149:1 167:18 195:18,24 140:22 144:13 193:5,7,11 shows 26:11
202:24 211:6 196:8,10 148:19 152:8 238:1 247:7 58:17 69:23
214:3 223:21 238:1 152:14,16 sets 189:20 90:14 123:10
says 17:4 24:8 243:15 154:19 161:17 setting 242:10 150:13 178:18
39:21 60:22 scheme 160:9 162:6,24 168:1 243:7 179:8 182:20
61:2,6 63:18 school 16:10 168:2 169:7 setup 46:11,13 182:21 185:13
63:21 64:18 science 107:17 181:15 194:11 46:24 47:13 203:11
65:4 70:6 screen 76:11 202:3 208:8 190:20,23,25 shrubs 65:18
86:12 87:16 211:14 221:7 211:20 214:24 191:7,15,18 226:21
88:6 93:11 scroll 214:22 217:6 223:12 244:14 Shucks 69:15
115:9 119:18 215:8 216:5,16 223:16 230:24 set-up 191:11 side 80:6 111:19
135:4 158:6 se 21:1 231:7 232:17 seven 119:17 138:6,7 220:3
171:8,10,13 sea 150:22 237:15 120:18 154:2 242:8
173:14 182:6 187:19 199:20 seeing 71:4 175:6,9,10,11 Signed 246:11
182:11 198:11 204:11 73:21 184:22 185:8,9 246:13,15
199:20 200:11 second 24:12 seen 16:22 17:9 214:23 significant 40:21
200:20 205:9 35:13 49:7 17:24 18:5 seventeen 40:23 70:15
205:10 213:21 73:14 76:3 19:14 76:17 129:16,17,20 89:4 111:3
213:24 214:20 93:4 100:21 selected 182:20 130:9,21 131:8 115:4 125:5,14
214:21 215:18 102:10,10 182:23 shaded 104:5 125:18,20
216:21,25 119:22 129:3 sense 49:9 67:6 145:2 155:20 126:1 190:10
217:2,11 169:2 172:12 94:13 231:4 shades 211:24 signing 5:9
218:22 223:24 176:19 sentence 7:17 share 7:12 14:7 similar 96:8,8
224:16 225:6 section 64:24 109:18 111:6 SHER 2:14 195:13 196:21
229:23 232:4 66:8,18 71:5 119:18 198:11 short 105:9 196:25 197:2,3
233:24 235:10 72:6 73:21 199:15 shorthand 247:9 217:9 234:3
235:21 237:16 93:2 94:15 separate 14:13 shortly 162:13 235:9,13
237:23 106:19 113:14 102:11 107:2 show 19:18 26:9 simplified 28:12

Page 27
simplistic 43:2 106:8,24 107:4 204:4,8,13,18 smoothed 67:7 161:1 169:5,6

simply 45:18 108:7,10,16 205:1,3,8 snapshots 30:25 233:8 239:3
163:2 109:1,22 110:5 206:10,22 62:15 south 90:22,23
simulated 170:9 110:9 111:9 208:6,18,24 SOBEK 161:7 95:8 100:22
simulation 113:17,20 212:1,5,10,16 somebody 122:1,5,7
132:25 209:1 116:5,12,16 212:25 213:4,8 220:17 125:22 133:6
simulations 117:8,10 118:5 213:16 219:9 someplace 62:20 133:13 135:12
105:21 106:1 118:11 119:8 220:11,19 sorry 20:10,12 135:15,19,21
161:6 223:20 119:21 120:3 225:12 228:19 47:18 52:25 147:24 152:25
sir 6:25 10:22 120:24 121:21 232:19 234:1 55:20 61:18 153:2,4,6,22
11:13 12:16,22 121:23 123:20 235:2 236:5,10 70:21 74:2 154:3 173:10
13:25 14:16,20 126:20 129:7 237:1,20 238:3 87:6 93:8 185:21 186:8,9
14:22,24 17:1 132:5,14 135:2 238:15,24 99:17 112:20 186:10,14,23
17:11,19 22:15 135:17,23 239:5 240:14 135:21 139:12 187:15 188:1
23:5,12,15 136:3,7,21 240:19 241:4 149:21 204:19 195:1 206:16
24:2,6,13 25:2 137:1,15 138:5 243:24 204:21 232:14 206:25 208:22
25:6,14,23 138:8,23 139:3 sit 52:14 sort 16:18 21:8 212:8 216:25
26:2,4,8 27:6,9 139:7,15,17 site 51:23 29:18 46:5 217:11 218:10
27:15 28:16 140:7,11,18,20 six 60:8 75:16 57:4,7 63:1,14 218:23 220:3,5
31:3 32:10 141:13,13,16 99:9 167:19,21 63:25 64:6 229:24 230:6
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35:8 36:12,16 143:1 144:3,14 sixteen 17:8 77:15 79:2 southern 95:3
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STEVEN FITZGERALD January 29, 2009

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

1 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX

1 STIPULATION 1 Q. And that's what the rule requires.

1 STEVEN D. FITZGERALD, P.E., 1 so we speak the same language, because

1 A. No, sir. 1 didn't bring his entire file.

1 MR. STEVENS: 1 than what's actually attached to your report

1 Q. Okay. 1 identification and is attached hereto.)

1 résumé? 1 Q. Okay. We'll come back to that.

1 report. 1 MS. GREIF:

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 MS. GREIF:

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 yours in establishing the parameters for your

1 over the levee. 1 A. It's primarily for the design of flood

1 of Houston in 1996. 1 to the work you did in this case or the

1 Q. To the report. You've done other 1 A. Professor?

1 elevations of the land. 1 an animation?

1 A. On Page 22. 1 Q. Okay. And is it substantially more

1 Q. Okay. In the central wetlands unit -- 1 near the 40 arpent levee.

1 MS. GREIF: 1 Q. Sure. That's fine. Just in your

1 Q. By all means. It's not Quiz Bowl, you 1 Yeah.

1 unit full? 1 A. No, sir.

1 A. Yes. I recall that. 1 here.

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 A. Um -- the plaintiffs and the U.S.

1 along the GIWW. 1 Q. And what is the water depth or average

1 A. It varies. Um -- and from my 1 in the central wetlands unit?

26 (Pages 101 to 104)

1 simulations that continue until midnight on 1 all that.

27 (Pages 105 to 108)

1 A. No, sir. 1 A. (Witness complies.) Okay.

28 (Pages 109 to 112)

1 Q. Okay. 1 Q. Okay. At the moment in time 6:00 a.m.

29 (Pages 113 to 116)

1 through all the breach locations adjacent to 1 reached final grade?

30 (Pages 117 to 120)

1 flow. 1 east of Paris Road, which would be locations 5

31 (Pages 121 to 124)

1 A. Yeah. When I thought was significant 1 Q. Okay.

32 (Pages 125 to 128)

1 A. That is correct. 1 A. The levels within the basin are

1 know. 1 A. I don't know what effect it would

33 (Pages 129 to 132)

1 animation that we've gone through a couple of 1 Yes.

34 (Pages 133 to 136)

35 (Pages 137 to 140)

1 acre foot? 1 Q. Because the St. Bernard basin is

36 (Pages 141 to 144)

1 surge and wave combined. 10 percent of the 1 Mississippi River levee?

1 Q. You said earlier you didn't calculate 1 Objection.

37 (Pages 145 to 148)

1 here? 1 time frame.

38 (Pages 149 to 152)

1 A. Yes. 1 your model to water that came through breaches.

39 (Pages 153 to 156)

1 A. Yes, sir. 1 breach was 7:00 a.m. Right? If it took an

40 (Pages 157 to 160)

41 (Pages 161 to 164)

1 Q. All right. Now I understand. I told 1 A. No, sir, there wasn't.

1 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS: 1 I don't see -- and correct me if I'm wrong. I

42 (Pages 165 to 168)

1 Q. Okay. We talked earlier about 1 meteorological records. That was developed in

43 (Pages 169 to 172)

44 (Pages 173 to 176)