-

...

- -

..

.... _..........,

...

--

._..

-.

..

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 ---._-----=------UNITED WESTERN STATES

--

.. _----COURT

1 .-----_ .. --

DISTRICT

DISTRICT

OF LOUISIAN~ DIVISION

SHREVEPORT
4

5
6

NEW BETH~NY VERSUS

HOME FOR GIRLS,

ET AL: NO. 96-2065

7 8
! I

STATE OF LOUISIANA,

ET AL

9i
I

10! 11 12 : 13
1

141 15
16

DEPOSITION OF MACK W. FORD Taken July 22, 1997

17 18 19'
I

20 21 22 23 24
~

25

REPORTED BY: Paula D. Tieger, RPR Certified Court E?port~r

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 ,-,---=-------- .,.. _.. _ .. _-1 APPEARANCES: COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF:

r-.

2' 3

41
5'
I

MR. JOHN S. HODGE Davidson, Nix & Jones 509 Market Street, Suite 800 Shreveport, Louisiana 71101 MR. BILLY Attorney 113 North Arcadia, REX HARPER, JR. at Law Myrtle Street Louisiana 71001-3414

6
7

8:

COUNSEL

FOR STATE OF LOUISIANA:

10
111
i
I

MR. HE~Y M. BERNSTEIN Assistant Attorney General 330 Marshall Street, Suite 777 Shreveport, Louisiana 71101

12 COUNSEL FOR THE OFFICE OF THE STATE FIRE MARSHAL:

_'

13
141 I

15 16
17

MR. WAYNE R. CROUCH Attorney for the Department of Public P. O. Box 66614 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70896

Safety

COUNSEL FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL DENISE FAIR AND VICKY HAYNES:

SERIVCES,

18 19 20 21 !
22

MR. STEVEN L. MAYER MR. ANTHONY CARUSO Bureau of General Counsel for the Department Social Services P. O. Box 1887 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70821

of

ALSO MS. MS. MS. MS.

PRESENT: BRENDA KELLEY TOPPER JOHNSON DENISE FAIR VICKY HAYNES MR. JAMES MYERS MR. GLENN FLESHER MS. THELMA FORD

23 24 25

I
-----------------------------------------------__j
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SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

.--~
MACK W. FORD
1

..

7/22/97

----_._S TIP

-- ------S

.-

.-------

-.

U L A T ION

3
4

The deposition being

of the Reverend for the State

Mack W. Ford, of Louisiana, as permitted pursuant Court

taken by counsel Bernstein,

5 6 7

Mr. Henry under

for all purposes Code of Civil

the Louisiana before

Procedure, Certified

to Notice

Paula D. Tieger,

81

91
101 11

Reporter, Tower, being

on the 3rd Floor of the Transcontinental

Shreveport, agreed

Louisiana

on July 22,
by

1997;

it

and stipulated

and between

counsel

I I
!

that all formalities, the witness,

with the exception

of swearing

121

are waived. stipulated that the reading and and

1")
".

...

13
141 151

It is further signing

of the deposition

is requested

by counsel

by the deponent. It is further stipulated that objections except of

16
171

as to the form of the question the answer are reserved until

and responsiveness time of trial.

181
19 1

I
I

III III III III III III III

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201

211
231

221

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241
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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 -.. -- ._---'-,--1

, ,

-----

-- -_._--

I N D E X

Page
4 5

Examinati~n

by Mr. Bernstein

71
8 9

E X H I BIT

11

Exhibit
1.

Description on physical rules restraint

Page 41

12 13 14
15 :
l

Policy General

2.

for all young people ...42 43 44 control or 64

3. 4. S.

Intake application Discipline Report record

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24

of physical

restraint 6.
7.

Behavior Critical

incident incident

report report

65 66

III III III

,
i

III III III

_-

25

'--------------------------------------------~
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SIMPSON COURT REpORTERS

SHREVF.PORT,

LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

_---

-_.

---- ---

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97

----1

.....:'---_

..

_- - -

_._--_
and

MACK W. FORD being testified first duly as follows: sworn, was examined

4 5
6

EXAMINATION BY MR. BERNSTEIN:

Q.

Reverend

Ford, as you heard stuff

yesterday,
I want

there

7:

is a little bit of preliminary with you, and I know you heard ahead and get it on the record

to go over to go and

8 9 10
IIi

it, but I want

with you as well; that is

that is, first off, confusing meaning, or subject

if I ask a question

to, you know, more than one

12
13

if you will stop and tell me, I will be glad it or tell you what I am trying to find

to rephrase out. A. Q. recorder

J

14
15 16
171
I

Okay. Secondly, the court reporter uses a tape to her

as a backup,

and so it will be helpful enough

181

if you will speak out loud clearly tape recorder helpful can pick

that her

19 20\ 21 22

it up; and also it will be

i

if you and I dc n t talk at the same time, and time to finish your

I will try to give you enough answers

if you will give me enough and I think

time to finish my to her as

231

questions,
!

it will be helpful

-n

24 25

well. In that vein, also, if when you answer, if you

BAiN

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SIMPSON COURT REPORThRS

SHREVEPORT, LOUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

.

-.

either an or

~~6

1;
2,
3 4

will say something affirmative "huh-uh" A.

Q.

that is clearly answer

or negative

and not ~uh-huh"

or anything Yes, sir. Okay.

like that.

5i

And that is what you need to do, is And then the last, is there any any or

answer
7
8
9, 10,

out loud.

reason, reason,

as I said with your wife yesterday, either because of impairment that would my questions

or handicap

medication

or illness,

affect

your ability

to hear and understand things about

and remember

~~: 12
13

that have happened that?

in the past and tell me

A. Q. talking
A.

No, sir. Okay.

I

14
15

notice

you wear hearing volume for you?

I

aids.

Am

at an acceptable Yes.

As long as I have them,

am all

17
18

right. Q. Okay. First off, I would like to go ahead

19
20'

and get your name and address A. Q. A. Office Q. Street Either Okay. address

just to start off with. Box?

or Post Office

21 22 23
24

one will be fine. I am Pastor Mack W. Ford at Post Louisiana, zip code 71001. bit

Box 764, Arcadia, And I would

like to find out a little

25, __ a_bou __ t __ y _O __U_'__ R __ e_v_e_r _e_nd __F_o_r_d_,_a_n_d_t_h_e __ f _i_r_s_t_t h i ng i_9 whe re

RAJN

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SIMPSON COURT REPoR'ffiRS

SHREVF.PORT.

LoUISIANA

(318) 4292160

MACK W. FORD
..
-

7/22/97
._---

._--_._---"

1
2

and when were you born? A. Jonesboro

Q.
I

was born in Wyatt Community

18, 1932

south of

3
4

March Okay. That Okay.

in our home. was that?

And what community is Wyatt, W-Y-A-T-T.

5!
6

A.
Q.

And did you grow up in the Jonesboro

7!

area? A.
Q. A.

Yes.

went to Jonesboro

Hodge High School. high school? of

And went all the way through No, sir. I dropped

out because

11 12 13.
I
I

difficulties the family.

Q.

in the family.

We had to help support

Right.

And when you did that, what did to work somewhere? In Shreveport Tire and Rubber went to work for

14

you -- you went A.

15 16j 17 18 19 20
21

Yes, sir.

the B. F. Goodrich of 15, I believe

Company

at the age

it was, and we stayed

with them on

and off for 12 years. Q. And when you say "we", was there you? of course, my family. somebody

else besides A.
Q.

It was myself,

And what did you do for B. F. Goodrich? I started out as a young boy on the gas then I worked to the into

A.
24

island

as a gas island attendant, department,

25

the service

and from there

._._,,-

... --. -------(318) 429-2160

BAIN

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SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
.---

-_

..

_-

-_._._

... _--

----manager

1.

retreading

department

and wound

up as retread Company,

2I
3 4

of the B. F. Goodrich Louisiana

Q.

Tire and Rubber in Shreveport.

Cotton

Street

And so you moved

to Shreveport

in about

1947

or

146?

A. correction.
8 9

'46,

probably

be

'46. 146.

That

is subject

to

It was around And where

Q. A. course. married,
I

did you live in Shreveport? Drive, Shreveport, of

We were on Roosevelt We rented apartments

10
111

when we first got Drive. of

but we purchased

a home on Roosevelt community

12~ I 13 14 15
16
1

That is out in Broadacres town. Q.

back southeast

And when you say "we", who all was in your

family at that time? A.

I

Well, my wife and I was married to our first baby a year started.

in 149,

and

171

she gave birth course, Q. in '46, A. Q. A. wife that

later,

and of

! ,
lS;

is when our family

19

And so when you moved were you by yourself Yes.

up here to Shreveport

20
21
221

then?

So you lived by yourself No, sir.

in Shreveport? and his

23 24
'.

I stayed with my brother

in Shreveport.

They were next to the old police Common

..

25

station --BArN

down right off Louisiana -------------_

Street.

That

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SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

--~
..

(318)

429-2160

---

.. -

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

--_
..

------.-~

1,

is how I got acquainted and Rubber in those

Q.

with the B. F. Goodrich staying right

Tire

f\

2 3 4 5 6

Company.

We were there.

next door

apartments

And so you got married

'49.

in

149?

A. Q. anniversary A.

Okay.

And your wife correctly

gave your

date yesterday? Yes. Okay.

I

am glad

she did that,

too.

9i

Q.

And you had nine children? We had seven of our own, and we my wife gave birth we adopted to seven

A.
IIi

Yes, sir. two.

adopted
i

Seven girls;

121 13

I
1
1 1

precious girl

girls,

and of course, Melanie;

a little

from Oklahoma,

and then we adopted

14
15 16

Douglas.
Q.

He is 19 today. And you adopted Douglas was. them as infants? I believe, was about

A.

Melanie,

17
18

11 or 12 when we got her. Q. number A. Q. A. Q. working A. So you worked of years here for B. F. Goodrich for a

19
20

in Shreveport?

Yes, sir. You said off and on? Off and on for about 12 years.

21 22
23
24

What else did you do when you weren't for B. F. Goodrich? At pne time we went to Washington
-------

25

State

for

------------

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SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 -_ .. - --_ ..

---_._---_._._

...

_- ----for a for

10

a short time and worked visit,

there,

I think mostly

and then back here and went back to work

I

B. F. Goodrich. that. Q. State? A. Q. A. Q. up there? A. picking Q. I r

can't

remember

the time frame on

4
5

How long do you think you were

in Washington

6
7' B

Probably

a year. yourself how?

And you supported Yes, sir.

10
11.

How did you support

yourself

when you were

12
13 14

We were working apples, picking

in the farm industry, pears,

like

cherries,

pruning. off and

And so you worked

for B. F. Goodrich '50s?

15
16

on; takes us up to the late A. Q. '50s? Yes, sir. Okay.

17
181
!

And then what happens

in the late

What do you start doing? A. Let's see.

I

In 1957,

I believe,

somewhere for

20 21 22!
23 24
25l I i

along

in that area,

left and went

into business

myself.

We owned what we called a truck,

the Ford Used Tires. to haul. Because

We purchased of knowing casings, plants

and we began

the tire industry,

we began

to truck tires, retread to

r
J

carcasses

we call them, to different We were selling

across

the country.

----_.-

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SIMPSON COURT REPORlCRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD --- - - -----l'

7./22/97

------ ------Goodyear, Goodrich, different

--------

11

Firestone, independents

companies, them or

21

that would

buy them and retread or caps, retread

3
4

put mud and snow casings And so then probably to my heart about world to me began service

caps. to speak

~n 1960 God began to others,

5:
6-

and the business because I had

to grow real strange,

7
8

no desire egg.

after that to make money

and make a big nest grew real

And the burden

that I had for others

91
10' 11 12 13 14; 151 16 17 18

strong,

and so I came home off of a trip, and I told me about full-time

my wife that the Lord was needling service

and the Lord's work of trying

to help others. It was a

And so in 1961 I surrendered calling, Mr. Bernstein.

to preach.

It definitely with me.

was not a job;

it is not a preference My mama didn't God called

Q.

It is a conviction. didn't call me;

call me, and my daddy

me. You got a calling in 1961 to become a

minister? A. Yes, sir. Okay. At that point -- were you ordained at

20 21 22

Q.

that point? A. There was a little church in northeast Texas

23
241
'<, __ ...

that called really

us, and I told them that the Lord had that a missionary Baptist Church, came on

spoke to me, but before our church,

2sl__::::U9h

on Friendship

BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT,LolJlSIANA

(318) 429-2160

__

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 .. _-_ .. _--_. ---_._--_._-Winderweedle Road in Shreveport, as a mission anything about

..

-...

----the

12

and he presented field.

work of Australia Not knowing know definitely 5 6: 71

8 9

it as a businessman, to my heart first of about

that God spoke

all, and then of course,

my wife was rebellious

it, but later on she surrendered whatever believe, about God would lead us to do.
'61.

to go with me and do And so that was, '62, along That is where and the our own I

in '61, around

And then

that time I was on debitation. between the Southern as we were;

10
111

the difference independent support.

Baptists we raise takes

fundamental,

12 13

Lottie Moon and the other

care of of being

their missionaries,
I

and they are sent instead

141
15 16 17

called. And so we felt that the Lord had called Australia. debitation, churches, Baptists So we began on debitation. I was trying to raise monies When us to I say

through

181

and not only did independent churches support

fundamental Baptists, heard what to help. support

i
19

us, but Southern all the churches

20
211
i

Presbyterians, we were trying

Methodists,

to do, and of course,

promised

22
23 24
'-.

But when we left here, we had only coming money in. Of course,

$25 a month

we had our business

money,

from our business

that we had sold and give away to pay later.

_'

25!

and whatever

and promises

BArN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRlCRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

-_._ . --- - ---

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

13
1

But a little Bear Creek

church

up in northeast

Texas

called that

Community,

and Bear Creek Texas,

Community,

3, I 4 51 6

is Linden, Linden

out from Linden,

kind of between us and said we

and Daingerfield.

They called

want you to pastor ordained

here, and that is at the time they sent us out ordained. they asked us a lot of We

us, and our church the Presbytery;

7
8~

went before questions, Louisiana.

and we were ordained

in Shreveport,

10:
IIi

We went to pastor stayed

that little church, until

and we

there just a short while

our debitation the ship in seas

12
/--'-

was completed, New Orleans

I

and my wife and I boarded and sailed

13

with our babies 31 days.

the high

14
15
161

to Australia Q. A. early

And that was what year? That was I believe maybe it was late 1962 or

17
18 19

'63 or sometime Q. A. And you were We spent

in '63. for how long? to start we had

in Australia

four years,

Mr. Bernstein, ground where

20 21 22
23
I ,',--,\

with.

That was kind of a proving

some stick-urn, or whether what God called testing times.

we were determined

to do

us to do, and there was a lot of While we were there I remember takes our

24

first check was $357, and it usually anywhere on a mission trip, $1,500

about a month

25

to $1,600

BAIN

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LolHSIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97
14

to survive. cutting

So I went to work

in the cane fields that

2 3 4
51 6

sugar cane by hand with the Polynesians, keep up with

is the black men, and I couldn't It was so hot, and it was tough, early, and they saw that

them.

but they started keep up. So they by hand.

I couldn't

put me on loading.

So we loaded

the machines

7 8 91
10:
I

I kept all of it in straight and of course, supplemented family

Q.

and neat, and we loaded,

that is how we made our living, to take care of my me to do. in the cane fields? the first

the $357 a month

and do what God called

11 12
/

So how long did you work Okay. I believe

A. three

that probably

'\

13 14 15 16 17
181

seasons

we made good money

while we were good money. That

working,

what the Australians

called

was a team of men, and they split payday came, everybody

it equally.

When it

got the same, and I think

was the first two or three years is when we were working. and used gospel visit it in different

of the cane seasons

And then we took our money meetings, like we had a big

19

20
21

tent, and we would house

set it up in a town and And

to house and try to start churches. try to win people and founded

22 23
!\ I 25

so we would

to the Lord and try to in the faith. Then we returned of line? -----_._-_.._._--

get them grounded

So that was four years. and spent one year. Am lout

home

BAIN

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97

,
1

r+r :

-----------

--_-

--------_--

15
I

Q.

No.

You are doing

I

fine at this point.

You

2 31

know,

later on

will start breaking what

I

it up with more am going to be

questions, asking
A.

but this is exactly where

4
5
6i ,

you anyway; Okay.

you were and what you did.

We come home on furlow, after four years, the hardest four

I

Mr. Bernstein, years

7
8

of my life, and while we were home on furlow, in Arkansas, and I met two little girls, and being

was in a meeting blond-headed of little pregnant picked before,

I
1
I

9! 10' 11 12
/

twin 12-year-old

a daddy

girls,

my heart went out to them. drunken daddy,

They were and I had

by their own daddy, while

up a burden

I was home that I never here we were in

--,

13 14' 15

and I got to thinking trying

Australia Aboriginees wasn't where

to help the Polynesians

and it really

and the folk of Australia

where

16

wanted. there

And I said, here we are in a land people that is in

is a real need of young

trouble.
19

And so when we went back to Australia raised our money for our passage,
I

-- we

20 21' 22 23
24 25,

and we went back to and after those three of those

Austral ia and spent three years years, during those three years left.

the burden

two little girl never can see them today.

Baptist Church took

As a matter

of fact, I .

The pastor
me out to

of the First Southern

home, _and I me:.J

their

8A1N & SIMPSONCOURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 . -._-------1 2.

---

---

-."

- --_._-----

16
I

those kids. remember burden

The circumstances

was terrible,

and so

that as if it were yesterday,

and then the

I shared

3
4

grew on my heart,

and then of course,

that with my wife, say today

I

to help our American today

youth.

And

that we are living in the world

in the greatest in America. three years, in a but

6i
7' 8i

mission

field

right here

So we went back and spent those the burden hurry rescue

Q.

never

left, and so we were always

9
10 11

to leave that community the perishing

to get back here to

and dying. have come back '67? '67, and along

I

So you would in about

-- you went back

12
(

to Australia
I

13; 14 15 16

A. somewhere,

Probably

about

think

'69

'69, somewhere

in there we was back

I

home, we come back home. banker didn't

I !

Our bank

called

my we

in Jonesboro

and asked him for passage,

17 18! i 19
20

have our passage,

and told him what was on my when you money

heart,

and he said, you make arrangements So he sent me the passage and we came home.

come back home. without Q. today?

A. Q.

any collateral, Okay.

21
22

And is that the same banker

you use

23

Yes, sir. And who is that? Mr. Harold Allen, Jonesboro State Bank.

/'

'".

24

25
-- - BAIN

A.
'---_.

-----SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

&

SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

(31R) 429-2160

-''_7

MACK W. FORD
--.-,_"

--

7/22/97

_ .... ---

--

1
r
>:

Q.

Harold? Allen, A-L-L-E-N. Not only

--------l
is he a banker,
I

17

A.

but he is a friend.
4:

Q.

And so you come back in '69, and what

5
61

happens? A.
I

was in a tent meeting.

put up a big lake south

71
I

tent down on Kepler

Lake, a little manmade

8
9

of where we are now, and while we were meeting, we had a good crowd I can't

in that Some

there that night.

10: 11 12
13
141

of the preachers,

remember

who all they were,

but there was several the service

preachers

that come to me after

that night,

and I told them what God had the two little girls, in that tent, and we and we We but we

laid on my heart about all gathered began were around

the alter

15

to pray about what God would have me do. -- of course, I didn't say, Mr. Bernstein, Missions

16 17
18

were with the Maranatha Mississippi. all the monies through

Baptist

in Natchez, and

They were kind of our home office, that, you know, which that we raised

19 20 21 22 23 24
25

come

the office,

is the Maranatha

Baptist came

Missions, to us.
Q.

and they seen that all of our support

They acted as our home office That was the Maranatha

in America. Missions in

Baptist

Natchez?
A.

Yes, sir, where

Dr. James Crumpton

is

------------------------------------------------------BAiN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 -_president.

Q.

--------

18

Mel Rudder

is the head of the missions. that missionaries in

And so to the extent Baptist

the independent 4
51 6

denomination or coordinator

have any sort of or somebody that

a support

organization

looks after them, you?

A.

that was the group

that did that for

7'
8 9 10,
IIi

Yes.

See, they never look after

raised

funds for us, words, for tax

but they would purposes

it; in other

so we didn't

have to pay money tax money. Then

as long as we
I

were out of the States,

met with

the IRS when I come back and took care of all the papers to the office and proved that we were out of

12

13 14 15 16
!

the States cleared.

this particular But anyway,

time, and it was all that night concerning

we prayed

the ministry

that we are in right now, and one of the it was -- I can't remember Baptist his

men spoke up, I believe

i

17' 18 19 201
21

name now, but he was a pastor church Brother just south of Arcadia, Ford, there

of a Southern

and he said to me, home that to, we

is an old convalescent and he said,

is probably tomorrow

available,

if you want

or the next day, we will arrange meet the people

it where

221
23

can go visit, available.

and see if it was

24 25

So we went to visit us it was available,

those people,

and they told to sell us !

_______

and Ms. Madden

agreed

BAiN & SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
,---

.---- --.----and agreed

------'-----,

19

1
2;

that property the property

after we prayed; for $30,000,

to sell us

and she said, you can pay it paying interest; you

3
41
S,
I

out any way you want to without

don't have to pay in any interest, the note. So the church Baptist Church, over in Sibley,

and I will carry

Sibley

Missionary to

7;
8; I

raised

$800, probably, That

subject

correction,

for the downpayment. Kimball,

is many years Charles Kimball in and

9
101
I

ago; and Mr. Charles was then pastor Henderson, Mr. Charles friend,
I
I

Brother

of the West Main Baptist the West Main Baptist

Church Church, but a

11,

Texas,

12
13 14

Kimball

was not only a pastor Ford,

and he said, Brother

if you feel like

that you and your wife you can operate Baptist Church. under

is going

to start this home, of West Main church, and we

15

the auspices

We will be the mother

will start
18

from that. that, Mr. Bernstein, we came in and

So then after began to work,

19 20 21
22 :
23 24 25

and I started

to go out and get some

material material,

one day, and when Me go out to get the God spoke to my heart to name it. and asked me about That was in the So I stopped turned and

what we were going birthing grabbed

of the New Bethany my Bible

Home.

and I hurriedly

to -- the word to the

"Bethany"

came to me.

So I hurriedly

turned

..
BAIN

J
(318) 429-2160

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRlCRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA

--

-- -- -_. -----

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 -------------

20

rendering Mary,

of Bethany.

It says home of Martha lodged there.

and

2
3,

and said that Jesus

And so we

chartered Louisiana.

the home as the New Bethany

Home, Arcadia,

4: 5' 6 7 81
j

Then God gave us a Martha jail in Mobile, Alabama,

first of all out of

and then gave us a little Texas, and it

girl, Mary Rios, out of San Antonio, began.

I

I met them. Levins

Ms. Verna

Levins

in Houston, lady, and when to Ms. Levins out of I

9: 10 11
12

Ms. Verna talked about

was a real Christian

to her, Mr. Kimball the possibility

and I talked those

of taking

children

detention, Ms. Levins,

it was packed, what would

out of Houston.

And I said,

it take to get these kids out they are all in the lockup; And I told her up a relationship but also the

14
15

of here,

and of course,

and she said, only

for the asking. and we struck

16
17:

what was on my heart,

that day, not only with Ms. Verna detention detention Q. A. Q. down, staff ward. That was in Houston? Yes, sir. Okay. And going

Levins,

18 19
20 21 22

and also the children

of that

back, before

we get too far as

23

I want

to go back and ask you,

the property

you bought 25

it, you bought Madden?

it from, I believe

your wife

said, Trixie

BAIN

& SIMPSON

COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 21 1 2

3,
4,

A.
Q.

Yes, sir.

She

1S

dead now. for it?

And you paid $30,000 $30,000.

A. Q. A.

What was on the property

when you bought which

it?

5 6

It was only the old farmhouse, home.

would

be the old penal

See, that used to be the husband

!
7'

parish bought

penal

farm, and then Ms. Madden's home,

8~
9

that to start a nursing it.

and I can't know the name, Then there

recall what they called some acres or something, was the old farmhouse, housed the workers

I don't

10

it seemed

like.

11
121
,

and then the old farmhouse I guess, of

or the superintendent,

13 i

the farm; and then right down the road was the foundation of the old penitentiary of the prison stacked farm,

14 15 16 17
I

and it was built out of two-by-sixes side, pinned

side by six and and

side by side, and the walls were six and a half inches

a half or whatever, we eventually Ms. Madden's remember, grown

thick,

18 19
20 21

built on that. house across

And then there was The best Now, I can

the road.

that is all that was there.

it has

up; a lot of work. Q. SO, you get the first two children in what

22 23 24
25 1

year? A. first two. I believe that was in 19 -- that wasn't to correction. our

That is subject

The first

~-------------------------------------------RAIN
-

& SIMPSON

COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

--_._-- ----------

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

22
1

two came,

Yvonne

Kennedy

and her sister,

a
I

2!

l4-year-old, Martha

was the first two, and then

believe They were

31
4; ,
5 6

and Mary was along the same time.

about that time.

all about
Q.

And so that was the start of the New Bethany

Home for Girls?

A.

7
8 9 10;

Yes, sir. Okay. ministry How would for girls, teenagers you describe the home the New
Is

Q. Bethany a home

for girls? youth,

it

for troubled

or wayward

or is

lli
12i

it a residential people about about it?

A.

treatment

center?

How do you tell to tell people

it when you are trying

131

14 15 16 17 18
19l
I

Mr. Bernstein, project

we are reaching

out as a rejects; And been

mission

to the incorrigible, prostitutes,

unwanted

destitute, remember

lonely, one thing,

drug addicts. haven1t

these kids really

loved and haven't Everybody

Q.

had a chance

in life, most of them.

was too busy Okay.

for them. -- your term for youth?

20 21 22 23
24

So you see this, what project

for it would
A. Q. A.

then be a mission youth. youth?

Wayward Wayward Yes.

25

Q.

Have you individually

---_.

ever worked

with

or

__ .-_
(318) 429-2160

BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRlERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

--_._-------_.

-- .. --

_.

-----

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 23 1

2 3:

been associated that were A. yesterday.

with any of the ministries by the Reverend

I

or homes Roloff?

started No, sir.

Lester

heard

you

ask that question

We have never
I

had any connection him as a friend. me in times, He has

whatsoever. called
i

considered

me and encouraged

but we have

71
8

never

had any close dealings. Q. Okay. When did you first meet Reverend

Roloff? A.
I

can't recall, of course,

Mr. Bernstein.

You know, He is

11:
I

everybody, very,

has heard

of Mr. Roloff.

12
13

very popular

among

the ranks of the more preachers,

I

fundamentalists. guess, Rice,

He has influenced else that really

I

14 15 16 17
18

than anybody

know of except

John R.

and we have never

I

had any -- as a matter

of fact, property. didn't

met him years and years ago, met him at his We flew in one time and sat down. We

talk to him but for just a minute,

I

just spoke had ever

19 20 21 22 23 24

to him, and that was the only time that spoke to him.
Q.

At the time that you started in Arcadia for wayward youth,

building

your

ministry model

did you have a

in mind? A. The Lord Jesus. We wanted to be like

25~_C_h_r_1_.s_t_.
BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REpoRTERS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

------

-_._ .... -

.... ---'

MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97

24

Q.

In the sense of -- a model more worldly

in the sense of in it on

something
3'

was what I was thinking have in mind modeling in Corpus Christi?

terms of, did you perhaps Reverend A. Roloff's No.

4
5

ministries

We didn't

have anything

in common

other

than the Bible. Q. didn't Girls

I

7
8
9

And I gather participate

then that Reverend New Bethany

Roloff Home for it

or assist

in terms of running

it or helping

you with

10
II'

financially A. ministries didn't

or leadership-wise

or prayer-wise? between the Roloff that

I
I

No, sir. and ours

The difference

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

is that we would they were very lukewarm

I

eat anything reserved carrot

eat us first;

on food. juice,

They drank warm water, and I wasn't and gravy.

Q.

water,

raised

on that.

was raised

on biscuits

Has New Bethany

in any of its different

forms or locations A. we? Q. A. believe,

l
I

ever been incorporated? about licensure now, are

We are not talking

No, just talking Yes, sir. if my memory

about

incorporation.
I

22!
,

John King from Winnfield, is right,

231 24

John King worked Could

up I

the incorporation say, Mr. Bernstein,

papers,

and we did that.

25

we did that simply

ignorantly

BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD
--_.

7/22/97

-_.

25

1i

because

we felt like it would give people

a chance

to

2
31
4

give and have a tax deduction. like it was somehow

Q.

But later on I felt

controlled. what? where the State would

It was somehow Controlled;

5'

A.

controlled

6
7

have control
Q.
!

over the ministry,

what we were given. feared that the by being

And how was it that you have control

81
91 10 11 12

State would
,

over the giving

incorporated? A. Well, we had heard that if anybody has -if

I

just like Bob Jones University they were discriminating think they ruled government

in South Carolina, or public

against,

opinion,

in favor of the State or the they were discriminating, and we

because

15 16

felt like that that was because and they had to return Mr. Bernstein, laundering,
I

they were incorporated And

all the tax money.

I

am so dumb,

don't

know about money

mail fraud or any of all that; we just try

19
20

to do what God calls us to do. Q. being So other than New Bethany Home for Girls locations or

21
22 23 24
'

incorporated,

have any of the other

facilities
A.

ever been incorporated? No, sir. We have never incorporated any of

the others.
Q.
1

..-'

25

And as I appreciate

the structure

as it is

BAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD -- 1/22/97

-----1
currently, there is the New Bethany Baptist Church

26
I

and!

that is, it has two ministries, for Boys and the New Bethany
4

the New Bethany for Girls,

Home

Home

and both

the home for boys and home for girls

1

in the 1995-1996 is that correct?

5:
6

time frame were located

A. Q.

in Arcadia;

That is correct. Okay. Are there any other ministries Church besides the home of the

8'

New Bethany and home

A.
I
1

Baptist

for girls

9 10 11. 12

for boys? We have had what we call the Bethany Seminary that offers an arm (phonetic) that

Theological

that is only just to help our workers would be interested in going,

and those any

;1'--

". \

13 14 15 16 17: 18 19
20

any subject,

subject, diploma Shumake.

able to take those through

subjects

and get their

correspondence;

and that is Dr. H. D. man to help us along

He has been a gracious

that line in any kind of training.

Q.

And he is Dr. Shumake,

and that is spelled

S-H-U-M-A-K-E? A. Q. i A. Q. Dothan,
I

Yes, sir. And he is the one in Dothan, Yes, sir. And what is the name of the institution Alabama? I believe
it is Bethany

21
221

Alabama?

23
24 251

in

A.

Bible

-- it is

BAIN

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SIMPSON COURT REPORTERS

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MACK W. FORD

7/22/97
27

1
2 3

either

Bethany

Bible

Institute

or Theological

Seminary,
Q.

subject

to correction.

But that is it to the best of your

4
5
!

recollection? A. Q. A.
it.

Yes, sir. Okay. He was listed as Covington, it was because then he changed Home.

6 "

7
8 9
I

I think

of the New Bethany his

He liked the name. college become

Q.

I think he restructured

10:
11: 12
I ,

and university, the president.

and now r think his son has

Do you know if the Bethany Seminary offers a degree

Bible or or is accredited

13

Theological

14
15 16
17

to offer a degree? A.
Q.

Yes, sir. And what is that?

A.
Q.

r really donlt know.

Okay.
I

18
19:

A.
Q.

really

donlt

know.

20 21
I

Okay. You could call Dr. Shumake, and he could

A. tell us.
Q.

22! 23
24

r know it is accredited.
Okay. NOW, besides the two missions in

Arcadia, girls,
I
L. _

the home for the boys and the home for the I know you have had some other missions in

25

RAIN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoRlCRS

SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD

-- 7/22/97
------

._-- - - .

__
How New

...

28 ---,
I
I

,---,

other

places

since you started

New Bethany.

2'

long -- let me come at it this way. Bethany,

You started

3 4
5
6

I think you said that the tent meeting

was in

'69 or thereabouts? A. Q. Thereabouts. Okay. And so shortly after that you bought

7
8;

the property? A.
Q.

Yes, sir. And about that time the West Main Baptist in Henderson, Texas, took you on, and I guess a mission of the

10
111 121
.'

Church

in that sense at that point you were West Main Baptist

A.

Church?

'\

13

Yes, sir, in a sense until we could get

14

organized. Q. They were your mother Right. And what exactly does a mother
USi

church?

16

A.
Q.

17 18

church

do? of

A.

First of all, they support him as our pastor, it, and he helped

and second

19 20
211

all, we classified us when we needed the direction ministry. counseled Q.

and he counseled us in the

supervise

that we needed

to go concerning we first it.

22 23
24 ..
, _/

And we didn't

move unless

with him, talked

to him about

25L:h~n
i
BAIN

And when you say "support", terms of prayer

is that support

and also financially?

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SIMPSON COURT REPoRTERS SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

_-------

MACK W. FORD

7/22/97 . ----,--------_
..

_-_._--

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29

1
2 3 4

A. Q. A.
Q.

Yes, sir. Okay. They still support Do they support us today.

you today to the same extent church? but they for us.

5
6

that they did when they were your mother A. I think not as much financially, I know that is praying

7
8

have a good pastor Q. Church A. organized,

And how long was the West Main Baptist your mother Well, church? we were we were going,

9
10

I think, Mr. Bernstein, subject

11 12
13

I believe,

to correction,

so busy at that time trying and we were so excited. family that we would

to get everything

It was only my wife and as a church there there to start is two or I am in the

14 15 16 17! 18 19
201

consider

with, and of course, three gathered midst,

God said where in My name,

together

and we considered getting

that the start of a church. it going, organized, and then I believe Church and

Then we started

we had some preachers Brother others church Q. Earl White

come in.

I remember, Baptist

from Shady Grove

21 22

had come to help us organize organized and started.

and get that

And when did New Bethany

Baptist

Church

24
25

first exist as a church? A. I guess in 1971 or '72, subject to

BAiN

&

SIMPSON COURT REPoR'rnRS

SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA

(318) 429-2160

MACK W. FORD
30

1 1\

correction,
1

late

171 or early

172; '72 maybe. were in

2:
3
4 5

Q.

And at that point

how many people

the congregation? A. girls Probably just my family and what maybe time.
I

few know
I

that we had at that particularly

6
7

there was four girls, and son-in-law

Q.

and then, of course,

my daughter

and my wife and I and my children. Baptist Church

And where was New Bethany services? Holding service

91 10
11

holding A. Arcadia.
Q.

at the convalescent a church.

home

in

We later on built When you bought

12
13
I 141

the convalescent

home there

in Arcadia,

was there a building for either

that you then later

used as a dormitory A.

boys or girls? home. It was

15 16 17 18: 19 20
,

That was the old convalescent building

an old flat-top so embarrassed

that my wife and I had been looking back on it. As

over the years calls

the State official but they didn1t being really there,

it, a bunch of hodgepodge, reason is where for us they us to

know the sentimental

and back in those days

21' 22
23 r>.
24

criticized

us for doing what God called it today.

do, so, and they are doing But anyway, convalescent realized

that old building

had been used as a and Ms. Madden

home, not too long closed,

25i

that they would

never be able to sell it, so

_j

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-_ .. _--