Professional Documents
Culture Documents
FORD -- 7/22/97 92
1
/
....-"".
r- ~~~nciPles
I
I
Bible as
2
3
interpreted pastor".
of either
,
4'
are in writing
A. Q.
of the Bible?
5 6 7!
I
was wanting
of the church
8 9
that is what you find in the by New Bethany Baptist is: Baptist interpret
and as interpreted
10 11 12
Church,
Church
guess
my question
Church Yes.
is a group
of people,
13' 14
Baptist
Church if
go
15 16 17 18 19 20
21
about
interpreting
In other words,
for instance,
workers
come in, and you had earlier they come in if the church my question is:
this morning
decides
they come
22 23
24
workers
in or in deciding
of the
25
We are an independent
fundamental
-- you
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 4292160
MACK W. FORD
91
Q.
Do you remember
support
3:
4 5-
check
from Texas? MR. HODGE: Objection. Well, that is right. produced those
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I 21 22 23
; I
We hadn't
We will have to get to that. MR. CARUSO: The objection deals only We
instances
MR. HARPER: our records also. MR. CARUSO: Counsel? MR. HARPER: MR. CARUSO: counsel?
Under what
statute,
act.
Can you cite me the statute? MR. BERNSTEIN: Gentlemen, we are going
to resume
the deposition
at some point
after documents
.....
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RAIN
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------(318) 429-2160
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
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,-_._-_.
1!
MACK W. FORD -- 7/22/97 -----_._. know what Q. A. fundamental Yes. Believing is?
---
93
2
3
every word
inherent,
4
5'
pre-tribyletarian
6 7 8 9 10 11
12
it says.
and then we have a black book that is called Bible, cannot and there is some real controversy,
and we
go past the fact that this is the final (indicating) Okay. The word of God is the final authority. to God the Father and we
authority
Q.
13 14 15
16
A. That don't
to Caesar. You said that there was a brown in it? the color
Got you.
17 18 19
20,
there Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
(indicating).
And how big a book was it? It was about Loose-leaf this size (indicating) type? remember the --
21 22 23
24
spiral
notebook I don't
25
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BAiN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
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MACK W. FORD
--
7/22/97
94
-I
I ,
guess
it would
be statute
14:403 or whatever
it is,
the statute 3
4
that is giving
to do what
they are doing. Q. Well, okay. So when you said earlier what were a
5
6
7!
8 9
That is what
it used to be.
am talking department. at
Okay. Home?
regulations
10. 11
12
13
./
14
15,
interpreting
to admit telling
16 17
181
you started
me about
brown book with rules and relations, that was the policies A. The problem of New Bethany.
and I thought
19
20j
they teach,
21 22 23
24
says and we know what that little it is such controversy the Bible
Q.
brown book
25
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RAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
MACK W. FORD
- --_._-----------(A discussion
Counsel
is asking
witness
go about making
51
6
is it through
or alone;
is it through
board of deacons.
you explain
7! 8
9: o
that is on the table is how does the church decisions; is that correct? MR. BERNSTEIN: THE WITNESS: know what they teach, Yes. The people
10
of the church
you know.
12
13
just like I do; if they come out, they are going contrary determine to the Bible. on each casei
14 15
16,
what they have done and how they did it. BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. difference correct A. years,
Q.
17 18
the church
191
I
interpretation
20 21 22 23
24
resolved? A. Q. Well, Okay. through prayer and study of the Bible. holds
25
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steadfast
from the
interpretation conflict A.
and belief
5
6
Right.
that? its
How
71
8 9
1
of the Bible
10'
the Bible.
it out, check
111
121 131 141
15 16
We donlt have any problem. Would it be a fair statement to say that a Homes, by
at either
a staff member
to follow your
171
18 19
The Bible,
22'
23 24
.... ,.
the inherent,
word of God.
There
(\
~"
different
but it depends
on -- if they are
----__j
RAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
MACK W. FORD
7/22/97
saved, believe
they believe
the Bible,
2
3
as we do as for God
fundamentalists.
4
5.
it is that if
of opinion
as to the --
7!
policy
for either
of the Homes
Q.
10: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
181
For instance
-- could
use a for
A lot of people
We just simply
say, in
19
20
21 22i 23
24
Church.
of different those
denominations issues.
25
never discuss
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RAIN
& SIMPSON
COURT REPoRTERS
SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA
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of
98
Q.
2:
be the policy
3
4 5
6;
to your hypothetical,
your example?
you, can you put that in the context either the home
of a policy
that would
come from the Bible? A. As a book written Or a policy. of the church of Scripture you are talking says, about? "That the
8 9
Q. policies principles
Your lawsuit
by the Bible as
10 11
by New Bethany
and its of
121
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
Can you give me an example home that is derived The Scripture. Can you give me an example from the Bible? We can give you an example Okay. Okay. For instance,
of a policy
of a policy
that
of teaching.
we believe
in from
20 21
22
to be separated
from drugs,
from alcohol.
23
24 ::::.
and God will give you reasonable conformed to this world, of being
transformed;
as well
BAIN
& SIMPSON
COURT REPoRTERS
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
_.
--_._-
MACK
r -
W. FORD
7/22/97
._--_. as
I
99
11
do.
Then we have
--
the Bible
don't
say, don't
smoke,
in the Bible;
that we believe.
We try to
back it
Q.
up with the Bible. I think you have given me a good example gets to that point. I gather to
I
7 8
9'
that it is
will not
10
11
is that a fair statement? Well, we are saying we are not going to let say
12 :
/'
that doesn't
'.
13 14
15
A.
Q.
I
16
17i
support
passages
A. Q.
that say that your body is a temple Right. Okay. And whose reading of that
18
19
20 21
i
Scripture smoke,
I
-- that Scripture
does it? Right. So, help me. How do you get from that or rule that a child
22'
23
A. Q.
24
Scriptural
25
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
MACK
W. FORD
-- 7/22/97
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r------I' ,
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the Bible
.. _.-
--
...
_--against the
---l
100
1
I
it.
A.
Simply because
teaches
it is wrong
to defile
3:
4
temple,
6;
says, smoke?
this Scripture
7
8
91
A. believe
Well, that.
10
11
Anderson, that.
or Trinity,
12
Okay.
1- "
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
in that
policy.
believe
a program
and instruction.
23
What paragraph
are you
r---_
24
25
1
L..-
MR. BERNSTEIN:
I am still in
. _ . _
RAIN
& SIMPSON
COURT REPoRTERS
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
MACK W. FORD
7/22/97
-_--------
--
101 ---,
11
/"-\
paragraph
6.
I
21
31
the Bible? BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. A. Yes. In the Book of Proverbs -- does everybody "Train up a
41
51
6!
I
,
71
It says this:
81
91
101 111
in the way he should go, and when he is old, he from it". Let me give you this one: but
Let me a rod
12 13
"Thou shall beat him with his soul from hell". That
and shall deliver in Proverbs. There son while his cry", spareth
is found
14
15 16 17
is another there
"Chasten
my for
is hope and let not thy sole spare one: "He that
181
19 1
chasteneth Q.
him many times". And how are those Biblical that would constitute verses translated of
20 211 221 23
24,
a program
correction Well,
if a child
he continues warrant,
to be rebellious,
and things
that would
',,-./
25
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA
(318) 429-2160
1f
3
4 5'
provided
correction right.
be ministered
be done wrong.
In other words,
we do this
6 7 8
And how do you do it right? By praying with them and counseling with and them
telling
to discipline
10
them because
11
12
13 14
15 16 17
to paddling?
A.
Q.
is paddled
at one of up with
with the child? Always. Okay. And if a staff member did not do of the
18
19
20 21 22
23 24
that be a violation
of the policies
Yes, sir.
We consider happen
staff member
25
with
the child?
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SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
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BAIN
&
(318) 429-2160
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----_.
A. always
reprimanded
them.
We have
discipline
4
them when
It would be wrong
5
6'
Biblically. Q. of page That same paragraph, 3 says, "Discipline and only 6, down at the bottom counseling, circumstances
includes
additional reasonable
10 11
12
r
J '
in limited
discipline".
a program
that when a child gets counseling, additional discipline? A. Mr. Bernstein, chores
when a child
13 14
15 16
17 18
is a lot of
19
20
21'
to a paddle.
22 23
24
Now, here they are, they will tell you anything. For instance, they will tell the the DSS, look, don't they will beat me to death, problem, you know,
25
is a serious
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
104
determining
Q.
is.
A.
4,
don't consider
bottom
severe punishment
or abuse.
5 6
7 8
9j
where we get the -- it is all in the way it is handled that will get the results.
Q.
corporal
discipline to?
at
New Bethany A.
who is authorized
Frank Garcia;
nobody
I
10
else. Q. A.
Q.
11 12
Cr--,
\ -'io!
administer
corporal
discipline?
13
14 15 16 17 18 19
administers
the corporal
with regard
boys,
to the girls?
Yes, sir. When corporal discipline -- is there any regard to there present
Homes with
present, is --
a third person
20 21 22! 23
24,
corporal A.
Q.
discipline
member?
A.
Not in every
case.
There
have been
some of
i I
25
the junior
staff present.
_
RAIN
_j
(318) 429-2160
& SIMPSON
COURT IlEPoR'ffiRS
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
MACK W. FORD
7-/22/97
---------1i
--------------
----_._--
lOS
Q. A.
Junior
staff being
.~
2i
3 4
5
program
still .students, but they are what we call junior staff. May I say they are never when someone allowed only in
6
71
is completely
out of control,
lay a hand on the child. Meaning Right. But the policy of the New Bethany staff member Homes present is the junior staff?
A.
Q.
10
11
!
that there
12
when corporal A.
Q.
is administered?
r >.
13 14
15 16
17
181
corporal anybody?
discipline,
A.
We request
you know, that they have had to I mean, I am talking running about the
19
the child.
20 21
22
about
around
field; Q.
That is what they called high, was you ran laps. It works. And how would
23
24
junior A.
Q.
25L
BAIN
that be reported
to a parent?
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SIMPSON COURT REpoRTERS SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
106
Well,
it wouldn't
2;
3
instance,
sometimes
over
4:
5
in every Okay.
instance,
71
Right. Okay. How does MR. HODGE: is there a record Record kept of what? kept?
101
!
BY MR. BERNSTEIN:
Q.
11i
Is there a record
kept of corporal
12
13
The lawyers
recommended
14
15
being
the lawyers
in South
16
17 ' 18
191,
20
A. Q.
Christian
The Christian
21 22
23 24
And without
25
that corporal
discipline
not be reported
BAlN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA
(318) 429-2160
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parents? A. keeping Q. A. Q. Are you referring records? Yes. That they might Well, if there not be reported? is not a record kept of when to record -- by records,
2 3
4
7' 8 91
a paddling,
you? it
10:
11
It wouldn't
is not all that many. Q. paddled A. Q. A. How often do you believe at New Bethany? Maybe two a month. that a child is
12
13 14 15 16 17 18
I
Have there ever been more than two a month? Not that I know of; sometimes Could
I
fewer.
Here
comment?
19
20 21 22 23
they call it. Right. And I have never had a problem with one when but they
A. I speak.
I
24
obey.
I have never had one just up in my face and this old man said, and they respected me and
25
defy what
BAIN
& SIMPSON
SHREVEPORT, loUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
. __ ..._---
MACK W. FORD
-- 7/22/97
108
1 2;
I
it is because to corporal
of that. could
With regard
discipline,
3 4
5
discipline
that either
your wife or
administers
Sure. And they are not required corporal do discipline, to tell you when are they?
61
I
7!
8~
i
they administer A.
Q.
10
A.
-- just about
in every
case.
11 12
13 14
stop it.
Q.
The next page of your lawsuit, Ford, the church, and their agents
paragraph home,
15
I
says, church
"Pastor school
the church
the of
161 ! ,
17
181
I
litigation Louisiana
with
For clarity,
19 20
21
about
Baptist
Right. Okay. What is is there any litigation Church has had with any state of the Homes or one
23
24 2S
Baptist
either
of your homes?
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
__ ._- --------.
_-_--_-Mr. Bernstein. says that you, Pastor home, the church school
109
A. Q. Ford,
Clarify Well,
that again,
./
2
3 4 5
6 7 8 9
the church,
and my question
involving
Baptist
with the
something
10 11 12
New Bethany A.
Home
for
13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24
..~.
Church.
in trouble;
So the church
think that is
I
that, has there been any litigation and the State over issues homes? A. Well, the litigation issue. that don't
was against
the church
They brought
it against
25
, ,
._-------
110 --_.,
Didn't
but my question
is any litigation
out there
What
know
A.
(A
Mr. Hodge
13 14
deposition.
15
16
the school
So if you could maybe when you say the home, because some of these
17
18
just clarify
does it involve
191
20j
211
22! 23
24
BY MR. BERNSTEIN: Q. school, church The lawsuit okay. school, Now, says church, church home, church home and between to the
. ~
BAIN
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SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
--- .-_.
111
school;
is that right?
between
that
home or the
A.
10 11 12
I '
As far as the building. There has not been any litigation, over just the church school? was involved the church something, in the briefs. home or the either a home that didn't any involve the
Q.
home or church
13 14 15 16 17
it involved
building or church A.
or something school?
been through
my church,
the
fire marshal
20 21 22 23
24
Q. mean,
Well,
am talking
am asking
just
totally.
between Reverend
25
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
7/22/97
--
112 ., 'I
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I
Baptist other
over something
3
4j
school,
church
church
children A.
Q.
5 6
71
recall.
Mr. Bernstein,
if
might
8
9,
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20
well speak
obtained. themselves
much will
say. that,
MR. BERNSTEIN: Counsel, allegation trying but he is the party of a long history
to probe and find out what we are talking with regard about.
long history
I
litigation litigation
I want
know about
lawsuit
there
21
MR. HARPER:
MR. BERNSTEIN:
23 24
'~
25,
III
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(3IH) 429-2160
MACK W. FORD
7/22/97
,------~--------1
,J
113
BY MR. BERNSTEIN:
Q.
2 3 4 5
61
7 refers
to a and
lawsuit
about
when you
told me that there was a short, fire marshalls your lawyer office
crippled
7 8 9 10
11
the
church
Over
what the name was of the man that made that statement? A. name. Q. Pastor school Paragraph Ford, 8 of the lawsuit the church says, home, "Because the church religious I tried to think. I canlt think of his
12
13
14 15 16
17.
j
the church,
beliefs,
they have been the subject the State Fire Marshal strongly-held A. state. religious
18 19
Which
201 21 22 23
24
in separation
to instruct and
and bring
to our congregation
to our children Q.
25
I
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
114
"intense A. believe, Q.
scrutiny",
3 4
51 61
you believe? A. parents; Because the words that come back through the
71
I will not
81
91
101
111
12'
that we placed
out there
I
1
to have
13
14
to deprogram Q. Andrew A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Q.
Was that
15
16
171 181
Or Gorman
Do I have to answer Yes, sir, you do. Gorman Okay. He has placed Taylor.
19,
21 211
221
several
children
231
241
Judge Taylor
placing A.
--
25
Correct.
L
BAiN
_
& SIMPSON
COURT REPoRTERS SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
~--
MACK W. FORD
I
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Q. he stopped A.
Taylor
about why
2
3
children comment?
I
there?
4:
5 .
6 7
8;
am asking
you to answer
so
about
9 10 11 12 13 14
say? A. me. Q. A. Q. A.
Q.
Judge Taylor
work
IS
16 17 18 19
20 211 22
what?
A.
was there
23
of the conversation
A.
Yes, sir.
BAJN
& SIMPSON
COURT REPORTERS
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
7/22/97
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116
responded
3!
A.
~
for me to
4
5
6'
leave.
Q.
pursue
it any further
than that?
A.
Q.
7 8
9
say, I don't
think
that is
funny? A.
Q.
10
111
12 13
your predicament? A.
Q.
Right. Okay. Any other examples that you can give of intense
14 15
16
me as to how you have been the subject scrutiny? A. In 1988 the Department
of Social
Services
17
18 19'
out of that home by just They took of the parents, and we told me into all
20
211 22
the parents;
them vary,
23
24 25
BAIN &
..
SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA
(318) 429-2160
__ ----
MACK W. FORD
-- 1/22/97
117
during
those
-But the
I
21
3
There was only one that was there. our lawyer, talked to that one person.
4 5;
6
recall
we
And what
7
8
action A. getting
of DSS in 1988
intense
The way they handled with the fire marshal, to shut us down. And anything else?
9!
10 11
conspiracy
Q.
I
12 13 14
A. habeas
Q.
We feel like the way they put out that corpus order. Which habeas corpus order? corpus order ordering me
IS
16
17 l8i
A.
to take those kids to the Arcadia was an impossibility charges against because
and it filed
Mr. Wayne
19
following
morning.
20
21
in both places.
Q.
And that was in the summer Yes, sir. Okay. We were out June.
of 1996?
22
A.
Q.
24 25
A. Q.
Any other
--
BAIN
&
SHREVEPORT. LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
MACK
W.
FORD
-- 7/22/97
... ....
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118
else
that of
intense
by DSS,
See,
5
6 7!
refused of
run
that right
this
happening with
Sheriff, and we
8
9
happened
Sheriff, than
have but
disagreeing,
always
10 11! 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19
of
Social
they would
courtesy not
that
proven
Wafer name
came,
we had
no problem an
had
with
last law
incident
worked faith,
under and
without
being
in good
so therefore
comply.
19967
Q. A.
Q. leads intense the what you
20 21 22 23 24 25
What the
else of
to believe
subject
by the Marshal
Social other
State you
told
me
about
other
than
RAIN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISlANA
(318) 4292160
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happened A. didn't
realize
4
5
Services
wasn't
licensed.
6
I
7~
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91
of the didn't
10' 11 12
13i
have the right to do what they did. So he ruled the next morning has been waves of problems Q. A. documents. in our favor, and it
ever since.
14 15
1
said,
don't
remember. Jackson
Grinnis
(phonetic)
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
231
I
Louisiana, Association. Q.
the judge ruled that the State had to use the District Attorney rather than their own lawyer? MR. HODGE: judge ruled? I MR. BERNSTEIN:
I
am trying about.
to see if
24 25
remember.
BAlN
&
SHREVEPORT, LoUISIANA
(318) 429-2160
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1 2
3 4
BY MR. BERNSTEIN:
Q.
Okay.
Representative
5! 6
7
8
Q.
A. remember
Q.
9 10 11
Now, this last time you said that they come in good faith, about, and is that what you told order; is that or is
didn't
me earlier
12
/.
come in good
faith,
13
14
that they were not in good faith? A. Mr. Bernstein, what has happened in the past before a
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I
with a judge,
judge and he will sign them without give them a signed check,
them, and
blank check,
that somebody
gave a the
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signed, order? A.
Q.
I am saying
that. judge?
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A.
L
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