Relay setting software's specially the logic diagrams are far behind the technology of the day.

Does anybody know why?

16 days ago

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Richard Males likes this You, Richard Males like this 19 comments

senthilkumarUnfollow Follow senthilkumar senthilkumar guruvareddy Logic diagrams or Masking shall be user friendly as 70% of relays are tested and commissioned by other than manufacturers 15 days ago Unlike Like

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MarioUnfollow Follow Mario Mario Lopez Companies probably invest more in hardware design then software. Most of the software I've seen is buggy, or lacking in features that make debugging settings difficult. 15 days ago Unlike Like

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markUnfollow Follow mark mark matteson The people creating the relay settings, and the people who are testing the relays are supposed to be experts. Most of the settings are presented in a logical maner by the relay setting hardware. If you can not visualized it in your head, and create the test points, I don't want you working in the substation. If the manufactures came up with something that was totally idiot proof. I could not charge $100 a hour to test your relays. Remember what happened at the superdome, you should not dummy things down too much. After all it is called the Art of protective relaying. 14 days ago Unlike Like

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MarioUnfollow Follow Mario Mario Lopez Being an expert doesn't mean that your tools have to be difficult to use or outdated. Look at other professions, do we force a carpenter to use an older, misshapen hammer, just because he has the skill and experience to do so? If there is a better hammer then use it. But

with the setting software, there is no choice. We can't be blamed when we ask for a better hammer. 14 days ago Unlike Like

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AbbasUnfollow Follow Abbas Abbas Keyvan When we look at the advancements on relay test equipment we can easily see they are made better and easier to work with, but with the relay setting software you won't feel any progress or very little progress. 14 days ago Unlike Like

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KASSOUSUnfollow Follow KASSOUS KASSOUS Mohamed As a person that come from a cross disciplinary fields I think that there is the issue of code reusability and legacy code. however today we are observing a certain convergence between the substation automation field and general IT software engineering mostly enforced by the new very fast hardware equipments like fast Ethernet switches and industrial PCs with solid state hard-drives and tiny real time operating systems but also the emergence of the new 61850 standard and the use of XML and other technologies that matured in the field of computer software. 14 days ago Unlike Like

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GeoffUnfollow Follow Geoff Geoff Garber Relay logic has been traditionally displayed in ladder logic diagrams. Process control in factories uses vertically oriented diagrams. Utillities (at least those in the U.S.) traditionally use horizontally oriented diagrams. With the introduction of substation automation and complex logic devices, particularly those using IEC61850 and GOOSE messaging, these ladder diagrams have grown quite complex. Only in the last few years, have we been asked to provide standard logic diagrams (with AND and OR gates) for these complex schemes. While I can create either diagram, I don't find the logic diagram any more self-explanatory or easier to understand. I prefer to accompany the logic diagram (either ladder or gates) with an explanation in Structured English, similar to state equations used in some modern PLC's. (For example: If Voltage_Level_Low AND Raise_Timer_Expired AND NOT Bus_Dead Then Energize_Raise_Relay.) 14 days ago Unlike Like

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HalimUnfollow Follow Halim Halim Bensmaia Geoff, the relay logic is not necessary done in the PLC. In addition, I found that the relay logic in addition to settings should not be left as an "art" or left for the "experts" but it should and must be detailed enough in company standards and guidelines. Similarly, there should be links between the protection and control drawings, logic diagrams to describe the I/Os and the protection in greater details. 13 days ago Unlike Like

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mokdadUnfollow Follow mokdad mokdad bouguerra on one hand , it is not suficient to test the steady state behavior of power protection schemes. So to achieve this, the dynamic behavior testing is to performe including : arc rsistor, CT saturation and DC component. all of these must be calculated and simulated and confirmed by testing. on the other hand, various numerical IED designers have equiped there products by softwares on one purpose, to cope with all the problemes and difficulties experienced and witch lead to protection relaying miseoperation (bad dependabilitry and bad security). 13 days ago Unlike Like

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HalimUnfollow Follow Halim Halim Bensmaia Relay testing still requires the test engineer to verify the proper setting, internal logic and operation for a new installation or verify a setting/logic/control change at an existing installation. This typically requires: 1) injection of current and voltage into the relay to verify relay setting and timing 2) verifying proper relay input and output 3) verifying proper relay logic 4) verifying tripping and targets. Various equipment are available (ex: Pulsar) for current injection and to verify the above. Usually, we need to refer to NETA standards guidelines, manufacturer and /or customer requirements . Functionnal testing can also be performed. Redundant protective multifunctions relays are used for critical equipment and relays have selfdiagnostics and fail safe features. This increase the reliability of power systems and provide better protection, monitoring and security.

In order to establish acceptable settings , simulations or calculations are done to cover steady state and dynamic power system behaviours. Can you please clarify the meaning of arc resistor , CT saturation and DC component? 12 days ago Unlike Like

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JimmieUnfollow Follow Jimmie Jimmie McBride CT saturation and the DC component of a fault may be viewed by the manufactures fault record viewing software. The problem I find with most complex relay logic is that there is inadequate proving before the logic is put out as a product to field personnel. Poor documentation may make it difficult to determine what the design engineer intended. Detailed function testing is one good way to prove complex relay logic. 12 days ago Unlike Like

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HalimUnfollow Follow Halim Halim Bensmaia Utility and companies will need then to provide acceptable guidance to enforce traceability for the logic, control and settings in their documents and drawings . This will result in adequate verification during testing and commissioning. At many locations, these issues are left as open items (not easy to solve during commissioning stage) and may lead to abnormal scenarios. 12 days ago Unlike Like

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EmmanuelUnfollow Follow Emmanuel Emmanuel Britto There is a particular american manufacturer which develops relays aplication logics. Particularly in my country that company branch has specific people to develop such logics. The link for the company is www.selinc.com 12 days ago Unlike Like

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GeoffUnfollow Follow Geoff Geoff Garber We use a lot of SEL relays and I like the SEL logic language. It is not, however, easy to understand when looked at by other than a protection or automation engineer. Logic diagrams showing connected AND and OR gates are not much easier to understand. That is why I prefer to accompany the relay setting with an explanation in Structured English. @Halim: We set up a test bench to test our relay logic in the lab. Both ends are modeled using the same end devices that will be used in the field. Then, the scheme is field tested onsite. 11 days ago Unlike Like

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KASSOUSUnfollow Follow KASSOUS KASSOUS Mohamed To take again Mr Abbas question, indeed the technology in the Substations Automation field and in the power industry in general is "in phase" or even away ahead with respect to the technologies we know today, many industries envy the power system major companies innovation. I've seen a discussion in one forum in Likedin entitled "our transformer mineral oil is much more advanced than your smartphone". 9 days ago Unlike Like

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HalimUnfollow Follow Halim Halim Bensmaia @Geoff: PLC's are most often programmed Using relay ladder logic. Ladder logic programming is a language well suited for use by relay engineers, since there is little difference between conventional elementary diagrams and ladder logic diagrams. The sequential repetitive nature of PLC ladder logic requires careful thought to maximize speed of response, but presents many benefits compared to its hardwired equivalent. Many industries are experiencing conversion from old hardwired relays control panels to PLC's contol still requiring a lot of analog and digital I/O's. The technological advancements in the design of relay hardware and the development of highspeed peer-to-peer communication protocols have resulted in a new generation of IEDs. These protective and control devices have the capability to accept multiple levels of current and voltage inputs, analyze measured ac signals at significantly increased speeds (higher than PLC), precision and issue commands upon solving complex logic. With the IEC61850 , Engineers nowadays can not remain with ladder logic but will need to be able to make the transition from developing wired ladder logic schemes to digital logic schemes and then program the P device using PC-based software tools. We will also need to have some treacability and acceptable guidance regarding the software, designation for the inputs/outputs IN and OUT entries to relate to drawings and logic The functionality will need to be detailed enough in order to resolve issues that may be raised during testing, commissionning and operation.

For critical equipment, the logic of the protection schemes residing in the relays, they become the first point of redundancy. The relays are connected to a redundant Ethernet communication system , such that no single failure of either device or a component of the Ethernet network affects the operation of the scheme. Each device is connected through both fiberoptic channels to two separate Ethernet switches, which send and receive measurements and commands securely. As in the traditional protection system ( load shedding, slow and fast transfer schemes, transformer , bus protection ect...), the protection schemes (settings and logic) not only will need to be fullfilled but also improved or enhanced. The new IEC protection systems are here to provide better and more reliable protection and safer systems using advanced P device and using PC-based software tools which include more complex logic and functions to solve old problems and make the system reliable and secure. This has made the protection systems more intelligent , more adaptative, less prone to errors with the elimination of wiring and control equipment from older PLC and traditionnal protection. However, this has also translated into more efforts, more IEDs and programming (complex) , communication and monitoring. 9 days ago Unlike Like

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EmmanuelUnfollow Follow Emmanuel Emmanuel Britto Geoff: Very nice comment, Geoff. Indeed, ther are some devices which may be connected peer to peer, without a regular protocol, whice is able to transfer information from breakers, isolators, OLTCs, and other devices from the field which may be integrated in a switch or a concentrator to be part of the integral logicn no need to any configuration of the transmiting device (example: SEL2505 from SCHWEITZER). 9 days ago Unlike Like

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GeoffUnfollow Follow Geoff Geoff Garber P2P devices like the SEL-2505 using mirrored bits or similar and Publish/Subscribe messages found in protocols like IEC61850 do not always lend themselves readily to ladder or NAND/NOR logic diagrams. I prefer to add an explanation page to the diagram. This is becoming important because the simple schemes are now interacting with one another requireing a system wide view. 6 days ago Unlike Like

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JohnUnfollow Follow John John Kontolefa Top down ladder logic suits process control, and most interlocking applications due to the sequential nature of PLC programming. For example, writing an input state to a value in an upper rung and anding that value with the input in a lower rung provides a simple contact debounce of one scan time. What I find missing in the protection logic schemes is the effect of the changing numerical solution as a fault progresses. Typically we think of a numerical solution in terms of steady state fault values. However, the solution itself, at least for a period of time, is the result of samples of pre-fault and post fault electrical quantities. If vendors could provide a state-diagram type flow chart for various fualt contions they could serve as the basis for developing test programs for type qualifications and commissioning. 6 days ago