Anova Analysis

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href="profile/Sergio_Vai/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/d912f508dacd2b8e55_m_fec4f.jpg" title="Sergio Vai"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Sergio_Vai/">Sergio Vai</a></strong> · Azienda Sanitaria Locale Torino 4 </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5085a680e24a46d419000014"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">ANOVA in based on the following assumption:1) each sample has been randomply selected from the population it represent; b) the distribution of data in the underlying population from which of the sample is derived is normal; c) homogeneity of variance (the variances of the k underlying populations rapresented by the k samples are equal to one other. If any of the aforementioned assumptions are SALIENTLY violated, the reability of the computed test statistics may be compromised. Simulation studies have shown that p-values from F-tests are highly sensitive to deviations from normality. Like other parametric tests, the analysis of variance assumes that the data fit the normal distribution. If your measurement variable is not normally distributed, you may be increasing your chance of a false positive result if you analyze the data with an anova or other test that assumes normality. Fortunately, an anova is not very sensitive to moderate deviations from normality; simulation studies, using a variety of non-normal distributions, have shown that the false positive rate is not affected very much by this violation of the assumption (Glass et al. 1972, Harwell et al. 1992, Lix et al. 1996). This is because when you take a large number of random samples from a population, the means of those samples are approximately normally distributed even when the population is not normal. It is possible to test the goodness-of-fit of a data set to the normal distribution. Because you have a large enough data set, I suggest you just look at the frequency histogram. If it looks more-or-less normal, go ahead and perform an anova. If it looks like a normal distribution that has been pushed to one side, you should try different data transformations and see if any of them make the histogram look more normal. However, you may want to analyze it using a nonparametric test. Just about every parametric statistical test has a nonparametric substitute, such as the KruskalWallis test instead of a one-way anova, Wilcoxon signed-rank test instead of a paired t-test, and Spearman rank correlation instead of linear regression. These non-parametric tests do not assume that the data fit the normal distribution. They do assume that the data in different groups have the same distribution as each other, however; if different groups have different shaped distributions (for example, one is skewed to the left, another is skewed to the right), a non-parametric test may not be any better than a parametric one.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">ANOVA in based on the following assumption:1) each sample has been randomply selected from the population it represent; b) the distribution of data in the underlying population from which of the sample is derived is normal; c) homogeneity of variance (the variances of the k underlying populations rapresented by the k samples are equal to one other. If any of the aforementioned assumptions are SALIENTLY violated, the reability of the computed test statistics may be compromised. Simulation studies have shown that p-values from F-tests are highly sensitive to deviations from normality. Like other parametric tests, the analysis of variance assumes that the data fit the normal distribution. If your measurement variable is not normally distributed, you may be increasing your chance of a false positive result if you analyze the data with an anova or other test that assumes normality. Fortunately, an anova is not very sensitive to moderate deviations from normality; simulation studies, using a variety of nonnormal distributions, have shown that the false positive rate is not affected very much by this violation of the assumption (Glass et al. 1972, Harwell et al. 1992, Lix et al. 1996). This is because when you take a large number of random samples from a population, the means of those samples are approximately normally distributed even when the population is not normal. It is possible to test the goodness-of-fit of a data set to the normal distribution. Because you have a large enough data set, I suggest you just look at the frequency histogram. If it
looks more-or-less normal, go ahead and perform an anova. If it looks like a normal distribution that has been pushed to one side, you should try different data transformations and see if any of them make the histogram look more normal. However, you may want to analyze it using a non-parametric test. Just about every parametric statistical test has a non-parametric substitute, such as the Kruskal Wallis test instead of a one-way anova, Wilcoxon signed-rank test instead of a paired t-test, and Spearman rank correlation instead of linear regression. These non-parametric tests do not assume that the data fit the normal distribution. They do assume that the data in different groups have the same distribution as each other, however; if different groups have different shaped distributions (for example, one is skewed to the left, another is skewed to the right), a nonparametric test may not be any better than a parametric one.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 22, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li> </ul> </div> </div> <div class="topic-post-comments"> <div id="rg-modulespublictopics-actions-PostCommentList"> <h2> All Answers <small><a class="showall-action" href="javascript:void(0);">(55)</a></small> <a id="comments-showall" class="showall-action rf" href="javascript:void(0);" style="font-weight: normal; ">Show full discussion</a> </h2> <div id="c-loadmoreprevious" style=""> <div class="loadmore-action"></div> </div> <ul id="rgcomments" class="comments-list"> <li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5085ba04e39d5e9a02000007-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg" title="Rui Marcelino"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="commentauthor"> <strong><a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/">Rui Marcelino</a></strong> · Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5085ba04e39d5e9a02000007"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Thank you all for insightful answers. Juan San Martin, Andy Field's book is : Discovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method), from SAGE?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Thank you all for insightful answers.<br /><br />Juan San Martin, Andy Field's book is : <br />Discovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method), from SAGE?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 22, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Michael_Young7/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i1.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f8f8f23978a8_m_60246.jpg" title="Michael Young"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Michael_Young7/">Michael Young</a></strong> · Kansas State University </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50860579e4f076fd1b000011"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go nonparametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div
class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 23, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Juan_San_Martin/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Juan San Martin"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Juan_San_Martin/">Juan San Martin</a></strong> · University of Concepcin </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50868f87e4f0767337000032"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 23, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508892c3e24a461b27000034-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Steven_Moffitt/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Steven Moffitt"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Steven_Moffitt/">Steven Moffitt</a></strong> · Illinois Institute of Technology </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="508892c3e24a461b27000034"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">My Preferences as an Applied Statistician I have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have NEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. There are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise from experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal distributions arise when there are many small additive contributions to the data, (3) observational data typically arises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not erdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that arises from human randomization do you have a good chance that the resulting data are Gaussian. I believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests on most data is to avoid any assumption of normality. I'd second
the routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normality-conditioned tests.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">My Preferences as an Applied Statistician<br /><br />I have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have <br />NEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. <br />There are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise <br />from experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal <br />distributions arise when there are many small additive <br />contributions to the data, (3) observational data typically <br />arises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not <br />erdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that <br />arises from human randomization do you have a good chance that <br />the resulting data are Gaussian.<br /><br />I believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests <br />on most data is to avoid any assumption of normality. I'd second <br />the routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normalityconditioned <br />tests.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 25, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508a9d75e39d5e321d000004-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg" title="Stephen Senn"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">Stephen Senn</a></strong> · Public Research Centre for Health </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="508a9d75e39d5e321d000004"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">The key classic text is Miller's Beyond ANOVA See http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-ANOVA-Applied-StatisticsStatistical/dp/0412070111</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">The key classic text is Miller's Beyond ANOVA See<br /><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2 FBeyond-ANOVA-Applied-Statistics-Statistical%2Fdp%2F0412070111" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-ANOVA-Applied-StatisticsStatistical/dp/0412070111</a></span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 26, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Andy_Field/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i1.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd507c031104799_m_d8888.jpg" title="Andy Field"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Andy_Field/">Andy Field</a></strong> · University of Sussex </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="508e9242e24a464801000004"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful: http://discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/assumptions-part-1normality.html</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-
body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscoveringstati stics.blogspot.co.uk%2F2012%2F08%2Fassumptions-part-1-normality.html" target="_blank">http://discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/assumptionspart-1-normality.html</a></span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Oct 29, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Michael_Campbell6/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/3deec51e85c9c2a3f5_m_06757.jpg" title="Michael Campbell"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Michael_Campbell6/">Michael Campbell</a></strong> · The University of Sheffield </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5099469ee4f076637200003c"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">In 'Statistics at Square One' 11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a ttest.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eyeball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">In 'Statistics at Square One' 11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a t-test.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eye-ball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 6, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bd957e24a46232f00001b-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Felix_Franke/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Felix Franke"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Felix_Franke/">Felix Franke</a></strong> · ETH Zurich </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="509bd957e24a46232f00001b"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">I just want to add one thing: ANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can
just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake... *If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though. (Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">I just want to add one thing: <br />ANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake...<br /><br />*If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though.<br />(Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 8, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bdef6e4f076fb1e000009-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="509bdef6e4f076fb1e000009"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Felix, every test on alpha=5% guarantees you to get 5% false-positive results on tests performed on true H0s. The question is, if this rate is higher when the normality assumption is not met. Since the variance is often over-estimated when the assumption is not met, I think it is likely that this rate is even lower than 5%. But I would be happy to refine my prejustices. Btw: I find it much more critical that authors claim "no effect" when p>0.05, and that p<0.001 is considered "more significant" than p<0.05 (i.e. that p-values are compared), and that null-hypothesis tests and significance-tests are confused and intermingled.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Felix, every test on alpha=5% guarantees you to get 5% false-positive results on tests performed on true H0s. The question is, if this rate is higher when the normality assumption is not met. Since the variance is often over-estimated when the assumption is not met, I think it is likely that this rate is even lower than 5%. But I would be happy to refine my prejustices.<br /><br />Btw: I find it much more critical that authors claim "no effect" when p>0.05, and that p<0.001 is considered "more significant" than p<0.05 (i.e. that p-values are compared), and that null-hypothesis tests and significance-tests are confused and intermingled.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 8, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509be8e9e39d5e674a00000d-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Felix_Franke/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Felix Franke"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Felix_Franke/">Felix Franke</a></strong> · ETH Zurich </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;">
<input type="hidden" name="postId" value="509be8e9e39d5e674a00000d"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Jochen, the second part I could not agree more. For the first part... Thinking about it, I guess I should've written "if the independence assumption is not met" which goes into the direction of Steven Moffitt response. If you have some drift over time in your data, it might lead to wrong results. If all assumptions except for the normality are fulfilled... I guess you are right.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Jochen, the second part I could not agree more. <br />For the first part... Thinking about it, I guess I should've written "if the independence assumption is not met" which goes into the direction of Steven Moffitt response. If you have some drift over time in your data, it might lead to wrong results.<br /><br />If all assumptions except for the normality are fulfilled... I guess you are right.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 8, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bf338e4f076d74c000000-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="509bf338e4f076d74c000000"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Felix, I agree.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Felix, I agree.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 8, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7b076e24a467a0300001b-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/P_Roussel/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e415025163b07dcc_m_9e9a1.jpg" title="P. Roussel"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="commentauthor"> <strong><a href="profile/P_Roussel/">P. Roussel</a></strong> · imec Belgium </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a7b076e24a467a0300001b"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">I support the warning "particularly for checking for outliers". In my experience, screening the data for outliers before performing the ANOVA is even more important than checking for normality.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">I support the warning "particularly for checking for outliers". In my experience, screening the data for outliers before performing the ANOVA is even more important than checking for normality.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 17, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7bfb5e24a465d3000000a-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a
href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a7bfb5e24a465d3000000a"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Ok, but how do you judge data as being outliers? If the values are physically/biologically nonsense, then it is clear, though. But if the values itself are possible/resonable, then it might be that these "outliers" are the only data trying to tell you that your model is not correct...</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Ok, but how do you judge data as being outliers? If the values are physically/biologically nonsense, then it is clear, though. But if the values itself are possible/resonable, then it might be that these "outliers" are the only data trying to tell you that your model is not correct...</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 17, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f1f5e24a46cb35000001-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg" title="Giovanni Bubici"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/">Giovanni Bubici</a></strong> · National Research Council </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9f1f5e24a46cb35000001"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Can anyone make a practical example to test normality in SAS using the attached dataset?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Can anyone make a practical example to test normality in SAS using the attached dataset?</span> </div> <div class="attachments"> <div class="js-attachment-container"> <div class="c-attachment-file"> <span class="ico-pub lf"></span> <div class="attachment-content"> <a style="display: inline-block" target="_blank" href="publictopics.PublicPostFileLoader.html?id=50a9f1f5e24a46cb35000001&key= 9fcfd50a9f1f5376e6"> <span class="url">NormHov.xls</span> </a> <a style="display: none;margin-left: 3px" class="js-delete-attachment btn-close" dataid="9fcfd50a9f1f5376e6" data-type="file" title="Delete attachment" href="javascript:void(0)">×</a> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f6a6e4f076242000000d-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9f6a6e4f076242000000d"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Since the data are already in Excel, why
not doing it in Excel?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Since the data are already in Excel, why not doing it in Excel?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f709e24a46f645000018-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9f709e24a46f645000018"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Forgot the attachment. You see that 1) the normality assumption seems inappropriate 2) using the log-transformed response, the normal assumption seems ok</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default actioncancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote actionsave" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Forgot the attachment. <br />You see that <br />1) the normality assumption seems inappropriate<br />2) using the logtransformed response, the normal assumption seems ok</span> </div> <div class="attachments"> <div class="js-attachment-container"> <div class="cattachment-file"> <span class="ico-pub lf"></span> <div class="attachmentcontent"> <a style="display: inline-block" target="_blank" href="publictopics.PublicPostFileLoader.html?id=50a9f709e24a46f645000018&key= 9fcfd50a9f7092d056"> <span class="url">NormHov.xls</span> </a> <a style="display: none;margin-left: 3px" class="js-delete-attachment btn-close" dataid="9fcfd50a9f7092d056" data-type="file" title="Delete attachment" href="javascript:void(0)">×</a> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg" title="Giovanni Bubici"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/">Giovanni Bubici</a></strong> · National Research Council </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects? I understand you tested normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects?<br />I understand you tested
normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fbe1e4f076873c00000e-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9fbe1e4f076873c00000e"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a p-value. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a pvalue. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">The normality assumption refers to the ERRORS, not to the data. (also see Michael Youngs answer above) This is a common misconception (that the DATA should be normally distributed). In fact, to model a response by predictors using the normal error model it is not required that the residuals actually have a frequency distribution that looks like a normal probability distribution. The normal error model is a projection of our irgnorance (things we can not know and do not know about the reasons of variability of the data). A frequency distribution of the residuals that is strongly different from a normal probability distribution tells us that the model does not use all available information appropriately. It may be that this is still the best model available! However, for *testing* purposes (scientifically not so interesting, but usually *the* main thing to be done with the data...) it *is* required that the (limiting!) frequency distribution is *identical* to the normal probability distribution (or at least "quite identical"). Here, the central limit theorem may come into play, but then we have the same problem as above: if there is little data, violations matter and give wrong results (mostly false-negatives; so the research is rendered to waste of time and money), if there is a lot of data, violations don't matter (much) but the p-values will anyway be close to
zero.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">The normality assumption refers to the ERRORS, not to the data. (also see Michael Youngs answer above) This is a common misconception (that the DATA should be normally distributed). In fact, to model a response by predictors using the normal error model it is not required that the residuals actually have a frequency distribution that looks like a normal probability distribution. The normal error model is a projection of our irgnorance (things we can not know and do not know about the reasons of variability of the data). A frequency distribution of the residuals that is strongly different from a normal probability distribution tells us that the model does not use all available information appropriately. It may be that this is still the best model available!<br /><br />However, for *testing* purposes (scientifically not so interesting, but usually *the* main thing to be done with the data...) it *is* required that the (limiting!) frequency distribution is *identical* to the normal probability distribution (or at least "quite identical"). Here, the central limit theorem may come into play, but then we have the same problem as above: if there is little data, violations matter and give wrong results (mostly false-negatives; so the research is rendered to waste of time and money), if there is a lot of data, violations don't matter (much) but the p-values will anyway be close to zero.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Deepak_K_s/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Deepak k s"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Deepak_K_s/">Deepak k s</a></strong> · Amrita Institute of Medical Sciences </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Deepak, there is never something "best" in general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for instance Shapiro-Wilk).</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Deepak, there is never something "best" in
general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for instance Shapiro-Wilk).</span> </div> <div class="commentmeta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg" title="Giovanni Bubici"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/">Giovanni Bubici</a></strong> · National Research Council </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?</span> </div> <div class="commentmeta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that "residual" actually is the better word here. Yes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups. If there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of "subgroups" with only very few values in each of these "subgroups". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, false-positive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the
assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a p-value for a p-value ...). Showing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that "residual" actually is the better word here.<br /><br />Yes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups.<br /><br />If there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of "subgroups" with only very few values in each of these "subgroups". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, false-positive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a pvalue for a p-value ...).<br /><br />Showing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg" title="Giovanni Bubici"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Giovanni_Bubici2/">Giovanni Bubici</a></strong> · National Research Council </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. ShapiroWilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Now, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. Shapiro-Wilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real
experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.<br />Now, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="postdate">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50aa78fee24a467351000039"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">You distinguish "one group" and "real experiment with several groups". This distinction is misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no "location information" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the "reference" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with =0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location ("typical or expected value") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is "special" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the "expected value" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the "expected value" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal. Short: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model. If there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data. Whatever can not be "explained" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this left-over does not contain any useable information (has the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. Models are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible). What is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. If there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What "relevant" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is
a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide "outside of the data", using expertise.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">You distinguish "one group" and "real experiment with several groups". This distinction is misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no "location information" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the "reference" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with =0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location ("typical or expected value") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is "special" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the "expected value" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the "expected value" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal.<br /><br />Short: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model.<br /><br />If there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data.<br /><br />Whatever can not be "explained" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this leftover does not contain any useable information (has the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. <br /><br />Models are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible).<br /><br />What is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. <br /><br />If there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What "relevant" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide "outside of the data", using expertise.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 19, 2012</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Renukadevi_Palaniswamy/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Renukadevi Palaniswamy"/> </a> </div> <div class="commentcontent"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Renukadevi_Palaniswamy/">Renukadevi Palaniswamy</a></strong> · D.J. Academy for Managerial Excellence </div> <div class="post-editform post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50ab591ae39d5ef825000003"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div
class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 20, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/James_Roper/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd4fb4085f1eb51_m_2dfb3.jpg" title="James Roper"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/James_Roper/">James Roper</a></strong> · UVV | Centro Universitrio Vila Velha </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="postedit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (KW), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (K-W), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="postdate">Nov 26, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg" title="Phillip Wood"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/">Phillip Wood</a></strong> · University of Missouri </div> <div class="postedit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 "Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by McGraw-Hill.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 "Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by
McGraw-Hill.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 26, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Deborah_Hilton/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd50871e4757a71_m_98c01.jpg" title="Deborah Hilton"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Deborah_Hilton/">Deborah Hilton</a></strong> · Deborah Hilton Statistics Online </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50b43ed1e4f0762557000012"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website http://sites.google.com/site/deborahhilton/ there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution
Effects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website <a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com %2Fsite%2Fdeborahhilton%2F" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/deborahhilton/</a> there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution<br /> <br /><br /> <br />Effects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="postdate">Nov 27, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Emmanuel_Curis/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://c3.rgstatic.net/c/msz2j4/images/template/default/profile/profile_defa ult_m.png" title="Emmanuel Curis"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Emmanuel_Curis/">Emmanuel Curis</a></strong> · Universit Ren Descartes - Paris 5 </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="postedit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put"
onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50b47e6be4f076553a000021"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term "error" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects -- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects "patient" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability. In addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] - y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the "true" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional "error" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so. In practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear. For this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently non-normal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals. As for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because "residuals"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However, it does not work with continuous variables -- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term "error" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects --- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects "patient" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability.<br /><br />In addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the "true" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional "error" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the
errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so.<br /><br />In practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear.<br /><br />For this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently nonnormal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals.<br /><br />As for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because "residuals"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However, it does not work with continuous variables --- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Nov 27, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Fathi_M_Sherif/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg" title="Fathi M Sherif"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Fathi_M_Sherif/">Fathi M Sherif</a></strong> · University of Tripoli </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="postdate">Dec 4, 2012</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alessandro_Baldan/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/32bfe511fb1f0b392b_m_33458.jpg"
title="Alessandro Baldan"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alessandro_Baldan/">Alessandro Baldan</a></strong> · Universita degli studi di Ferrara </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="511fb786e5438ffd75000011"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a sub-population and understand if you have a bias in your selection.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a sub-population and understand if you have a bias in your selection.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Feb 16, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg" title="Alexander Schacht"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/">Alexander Schacht</a></strong> · Eli Lilly </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem. If you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem.<br /><br />If you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 12, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg" title="Phillip Wood"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/">Phillip Wood</a></strong> · University of Missouri </div> <div class="postedit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.) that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how
expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.) that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 12, 2013</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404050e4f0764141000000-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg" title="Rui Marcelino"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="commentauthor"> <strong><a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/">Rui Marcelino</a></strong> · Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="51404050e4f0764141000000"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 13, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140416ce39d5e541700001c-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg" title="Rui Marcelino"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="commentauthor"> <strong><a href="profile/Rui_Marcelino/">Rui Marcelino</a></strong> · Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5140416ce39d5e541700001c"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Thanks for the clarifications, Philip Wood. However unfortunately I don't have assess to this book. Do you know if there is a digital version of these chapters?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content commentbody topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Thanks for the clarifications, Philip Wood. However unfortunately I don't have assess to this book. Do you know if there is a digital version of these chapters?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 13, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div
class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404471d3df3e451f00003a-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg" title="Stephen Senn"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">Stephen Senn</a></strong> · Public Research Centre for Health </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="51404471d3df3e451f00003a"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">The usual effect of lack of Normality is loss of power. The type one error rate is not inflated. However, note that it is not the original data that need to be Normally distributed but the noise elements of the model (which can be approximately established using the residuals). A useful plot in general is that of the residuals versus the fitted values. Transformation can be a useful trick to restore normality. The two attached plots show residual checking for a one-way layout (six treatments with six replicates per treatment) using GenStat. The first one shows lack of Normaiity of the residuals (the QQ plot on the lower left departs markedly from linearity) and also shows increasing variability as the values increase (plot on upper right of residuals versus fitted values). This suggests a log-transformation. The second plot shows that the residual on the log-scale are much better behaved. As it turns out either analysis is 'significant' but the F statistic on 6 and 30 degrees of freedom is 6.3 in the first case but much higher at 40.1 in the second.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">The usual effect of lack of Normality is loss of power. The type one error rate is not inflated. However, note that it is not the original data that need to be Normally distributed but the noise elements of the model (which can be approximately established using the residuals). A useful plot in general is that of the residuals versus the fitted values. Transformation can be a useful trick to restore normality. <br /><br />The two attached plots show residual checking for a one-way layout (six treatments with six replicates per treatment) using GenStat. The first one shows lack of Normaiity of the residuals (the QQ plot on the lower left departs markedly from linearity) and also shows increasing variability as the values increase (plot on upper right of residuals versus fitted values). This suggests a logtransformation. The second plot shows that the residual on the log-scale are much better behaved.<br /><br />As it turns out either analysis is 'significant' but the F statistic on 6 and 30 degrees of freedom is 6.3 in the first case but much higher at 40.1 in the second.</span> </div> <div class="attachments"> <div class="js-attachment-container"> <div class="cattachment-file"> <span class="ico-pub lf"></span> <div class="attachmentcontent"> <a style="display: inline-block" target="_blank" href="publictopics.PublicPostFileLoader.html?id=51404471d3df3e451f00003a&key= 504635140447116dd9"> <span class="url">Two diagnostic composite graphs.pdf</span> </a> <a style="display: none;margin-left: 3px" class="js-delete-attachment btnclose" data-id="504635140447116dd9" data-type="file" title="Delete attachment" href="javascript:void(0)">×</a> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </div> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 13, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg" title="Phillip Wood"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/">Phillip
Wood</a></strong> · University of Missouri </div> <div class="postedit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="51409bc9e4f076d453000023"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/designingexperiments-and-analyzing-data-scott-e-maxwell/1101798089?ean=9781410609243 Hope this helps.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. <a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barnesandnob le.com%2Fw%2Fdesigning-experiments-and-analyzing-data-scott-emaxwell%2F1101798089%3Fean%3D9781410609243" target="_blank">http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/designing-experiments-andanalyzing-data-scott-e-maxwell/1101798089?ean=9781410609243</a> Hope this helps.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="postdate">Mar 13, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg" title="Phillip Wood"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Phillip_Wood/">Phillip Wood</a></strong> · University of Missouri </div> <div class="postedit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5140e322d4c1183c7200000f"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 13, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51418fabe24a465902000039-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg" title="Stephen Senn"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">Stephen Senn</a></strong> · Public Research Centre for Health </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="51418fabe24a465902000039"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is "internal" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of
observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). "The t-test tool." Significance: 40-41. Either way transformations can be useful.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is "internal" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). "The t-test tool." Significance: 40-41. <br /><br />Either way transformations can be useful.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 14, 2013</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy514192e8d3df3e7a59000011-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg" title="Alexander Schacht"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/">Alexander Schacht</a></strong> · Eli Lilly </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="514192e8d3df3e7a59000011"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Yes - transformations can be useful. However, you may end up testing something different than you initially wanted to do. Especially in factorial designs you may want to look at additive effect and transformation of the data would look at whether factors "multiply" each other. If you just want to look whether two distributions are different, you may want to consider just the Wicoxon-Mann-Whitney test (this has actually many names), which basically looks whether the average rank is bigger in one group compared to the other. The nice thing about this test is its invariance under monotone transformations (others you would probably not consider anyway), i.e. no need to use he "right" transformation. However, Stephen Senn has also critiqued this test as it takes both variance and mean into account. But I would say, it is discussable if this is a feature or a bug :-)</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Yes - transformations can be useful. However, you may end up testing something different than you initially wanted to do. Especially in factorial designs you may want to look at additive effect and transformation of the data would look at whether factors "multiply" each other. If you just want to look whether two distributions are different, you may want to consider just the Wicoxon-Mann-Whitney test (this has actually many names), which basically looks whether the average rank is bigger in one group compared to the other. The nice thing about this test is its invariance under monotone transformations (others you would probably not consider anyway), i.e. no need to use he "right" transformation.<br /><br />However, Stephen Senn has also critiqued this test as it takes both variance and mean into account. But I would say, it is discussable if this is a feature or a bug :-)</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 14, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141997be5438fff03000020-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">
<img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg" title="Stephen Senn"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">Stephen Senn</a></strong> · Public Research Centre for Health </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5141997be5438fff03000020"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Thanks, Alexander. My criticism of the WMW test is indeed 'that it takes mean and variance into account' but one has to be careful what this means. Even if the variance int the two groups is identical the overlap of ranks is a function of the variance. The degree to which the groups separate is a function of this variance. So, for example, if you single replace random blood pressure measurements by regular monitoring over an extended period you will get less overlap of the two distributions even though the mean shift is the same. You, of course, understand this very well but most users of WMW have no idea that this is the case. As regards transformation I would say that the main task of the statistician is to find a scale on which the effect of any intervention is additive. This can frequently also lead to well-behaved residuals. However, the two do not have to be linked and then it may be necessary to have separate models for signal and noise.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Thanks, Alexander. My criticism of the WMW test is indeed 'that it takes mean and variance into account' but one has to be careful what this means. Even if the variance int the two groups is identical the overlap of ranks is a function of the variance. The degree to which the groups separate is a function of this variance. So, for example, if you single replace random blood pressure measurements by regular monitoring over an extended period you will get less overlap of the two distributions even though the mean shift is the same. You, of course, understand this very well but most users of WMW have no idea that this is the case.<br /><br />As regards transformation I would say that the main task of the statistician is to find a scale on which the effect of any intervention is additive. This can frequently also lead to well-behaved residuals. However, the two do not have to be linked and then it may be necessary to have separate models for signal and noise.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 14, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg" title="Alexander Schacht"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/">Alexander Schacht</a></strong> · Eli Lilly </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5141a0e9e4f076382600000b"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Yes - statistics is all about understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more "Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18266888 - just shameless promotion ;))</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btndefault action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btnpromote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Yes - statistics is all about
understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more "Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (<a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih .gov%2Fpubmed%2F18266888" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18266888</a> - just shameless promotion ;-))</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 14, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg" title="Alexander Schacht"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/">Alexander Schacht</a></strong> · Eli Lilly </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5141a311e24a46fa74000018"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly "random error" or "measurement error" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (http://ediss.unigoettingen.de/bitstream/handle/11858/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844/domhof.pdf?sequence=1) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly "random error" or "measurement error" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (<a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fediss.unigoettingen.de%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F11858%2F00-1735-0000-000D-F2844%2Fdomhof.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1" target="_blank">http://ediss.unigoettingen.de/bitstream/handle/11858/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844/domhof.pdf?sequence=1</a>) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.</span> </div> <div class="commentmeta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 14, 2013</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Fathi_M_Sherif/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg" title="Fathi M Sherif"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Fathi_M_Sherif/">Fathi M Sherif</a></strong> · University of Tripoli </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="51430dd8d3df3eca11000024"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-
cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote actionsave" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 15, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5143179cd3df3e5d3b00000d-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg" title="Stephen Senn"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Stephen_Senn/">Stephen Senn</a></strong> · Public Research Centre for Health </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5143179cd3df3e5d3b00000d"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Alexander, the problem with this question "Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis. * However I can highly recommend the "Lives of others" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Leben_der_Anderen</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Alexander, the problem with this question "Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis.<br /><br />* However I can highly recommend the "Lives of others" <br /><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/go.Deref.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org %2Fwiki%2FDas_Leben_der_Anderen" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Leben_der_Anderen</a></span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Mar 15, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5163ca74d4c118825600000d-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i2.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg" title="Alexander Schacht"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Alexander_Schacht/">Alexander Schacht</a></strong> · Eli Lilly </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-edit-form" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="5163ca74d4c118825600000d"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Yes - this movie is great. and yes, that lives of others are not an alternative. What I wanted to say is that the values of the patients from group A would be informative about further patients in the future getting the same treatment A. Thus said, it would inform you about how the alternative treatments, wouldn't it?</textarea> <div
class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Yes - this movie is great.<br />and yes, that lives of others are not an alternative. What I wanted to say is that the values of the patients from group A would be informative about further patients in the future getting the same treatment A. Thus said, it would inform you about how the alternative treatments, wouldn't it?</span> </div> <div class="commentmeta details"> <span class="post-date">Apr 9, 2013</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rginjektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Azubuike_Chukwuka/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/9fcfd512931765d6ef_m_41b11.jpg" title="Azubuike Chukwuka"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Azubuike_Chukwuka/">Azubuike Chukwuka</a></strong> · University of Ibadan </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="516fbc55d11b8be425000003"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and nonparametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names). The one-way independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the KruskalWallis test. If you have non-normally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topicpost-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and nonparametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names).<br />The oneway independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the KruskalWallis test. If you have non-normally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Apr 18, 2013</span> <span class="actions-secondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li><li id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008-" class="comment"> <div class="comment-image"> <a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/"> <img width="30" height="30" src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg" title="Jochen Wilhelm"/> </a> </div> <div class="comment-content"> <div class="comment-author"> <strong><a href="profile/Jochen_Wilhelm2/">Jochen Wilhelm</a></strong> · Justus-Liebig-Universitt Gieen </div> <div class="post-edit-form post-edit" style="display: none;"> <form class="post-editform" action="publictopics.PostCommentItem.html" method="put" onsubmit="return false;"> <input type="hidden" name="postId" value="516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008"> <textarea class="text-input" name="text">Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a "location shift" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a "non-normal" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the
question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: "no". The same, for sure, applies to the MW/Wilcoxon test.</textarea> <div class="clear"></div> <div class="rf"> <a class="btn btn-default action-cancel" href="javascript:void(0);">Cancel</a> <a class="btn btn-promote action-save" href="javascript:void(0);">Save</a> </div> </form> <div class="clear"></div> </div> <div class="post-edit-content comment-body topic-post-text"> <span class="shortened-text">Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a "location shift" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a "non-normal" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: "no". The same, for sure, applies to the MW/Wilcoxon test.</span> </div> <div class="comment-meta details"> <span class="post-date">Apr 18, 2013</span> <span class="actionssecondary"> </span> </div> </div> <div class="clear"></div> </li> </ul> <div class="c-list-navi pager"> <span class="navi-selected">1</span> <a href="post/To_what_extent_it_is_necessary_to_verify_the_normality_of_the_data_in_ ANOVAs_analysis/2" class="navi-page-link pager-link" data-target-page="2" > 2 </a> <a class="navi-next pager-link" href="post/To_what_extent_it_is_necessary_to_verify_the_normality_of_the_data_in_ ANOVAs_analysis/2" data-target-page="2" > Next </a> </div> </div> </div> <div class="post-comment-editor"> </div> </div> <div class="c-col-right"> <div class="c-box"> <div id="rg-modules-publictopics-actions-PublicPostFollow"> <a href="http://www.researchgate.net/signup.SignUp.html?ev=su_chnl_topic" class="follow-action btn btn-fullwidth btn-large btn-promote">Follow this question</a> </div> </div> <div id="rg-modules-application-actionsAbstractPeopleListContainer5085257fe24a46fe2f00000e-teaser" class="people-list-s application-AbstractPeopleListTeaser c-box"> <h4> <strong class="lf"> Contributors <small> <a href="javascript:void(0);" class="js-see-all">(25)</a> </small> </strong> <small class="rf"> <a href="javascript:void(0);" class="js-see-all">See all</a> </small> </h4> <ul id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_application_actions_PeopleListTeaserProxy5085257fe24a46fe2f00000e6d038b60a68b8fd9546f488caf7d607a" class="js-people-list-content"> <li class="people-item js-list-item " id="rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_application_actions_PeopleAccountItemProxyAlessandro_Baldan5085257fe24a46fe2f00000e-6d038b60a68b8fd9546f488caf7d607a" data-accountkey="Alessandro_Baldan"> <div class="indent-left"> <div class="c-img-s peopleimg"> <a href="profile/Alessandro_Baldan/"> <img src="http://i4.rgstatic.net/i/profile/32bfe511fb1f0b392b_m_33458.jpg" title="Alessandro Baldan" height="30px" width="30px"/> </a> </div> </div> <div class="indent-right"> </div> <div class="indent-content"> <h5> <a <span class="meta" href="profile/Alessandro_Baldan/"> Alessandro Baldan </a> style="font-weight: normal;"> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"></span> </span> </h5> <div class="meta-info truncate-single-line"> <a class="meta" href="institution/Universita_degli_studi_di_Ferrara" title="Universita degli studi di Ferrara">Universita degli studi di Ferrara</a> </div> <div class="hide-button-container hide-button" style="display: none;"> <a href="javascript:" class="details js-hide action-hide">Remove suggestion</a> </div> </div> </li> <li class="people-item js-list-item " id="rg-injektorgenerated-rg_modules_application_actions_PeopleAccountItemProxyMichael_Campbell65085257fe24a46fe2f00000e-6d038b60a68b8fd9546f488caf7d607a" data-accountkey="Michael_Campbell6"> <div class="indent-left"> <div class="c-img-s peopleimg"> <a href="profile/Michael_Campbell6/"> <img src="http://i3.rgstatic.net/i/profile/3deec51e85c9c2a3f5_m_06757.jpg" title="Michael J Campbell" height="30px" width="30px"/> </a> </div> </div> <div class="indent-right"> </div> <div class="indent-content"> <h5> <a href="profile/Michael_Campbell6/"> Michael J Campbell </a> <span class="meta" style="font-weight: normal;"> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"></span>
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values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","originalText":"First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","postDate":"Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:48:25 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Michael Young","authorUrl":"profile\/Michael_Young7\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i1.rgstati c.net\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8f8f23978a8_m_60246.jpg","institution":"Kansas State University","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemo ve":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","d eleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDow nItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWi dget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011popular"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011popular");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011popular\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5085a680e24a46d419000014popular","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5085a68 0e24a46d419000014","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"ANOVA in based on the following assumption:1) each sample has been randomply selected from the population it represent; b) the distribution of data in the underlying population from which of the sample is derived is normal; c) homogeneity of variance (the variances of the k underlying populations rapresented by the k samples are equal to one other. If any of the aforementioned assumptions are SALIENTLY violated, the reability of the computed test statistics may be compromised. Simulation studies have shown that p-values from F-tests are highly sensitive to deviations from normality. Like other parametric tests, the analysis of variance assumes that the data fit the normal distribution. If your measurement variable is not normally distributed, you may be increasing your chance of a false positive result if you analyze the data with an anova or other test that assumes normality. Fortunately, an anova is not very sensitive to moderate deviations from normality; simulation studies, using a variety of non-normal distributions, have shown that the false positive rate is not affected very much by this violation of the assumption (Glass et al. 1972, Harwell et al. 1992, Lix et al.
1996). This is because when you take a large number of random samples from a population, the means of those samples are approximately normally distributed even when the population is not normal. It is possible to test the goodness-offit of a data set to the normal distribution. Because you have a large enough data set, I suggest you just look at the frequency histogram. If it looks moreor-less normal, go ahead and perform an anova. If it looks like a normal distribution that has been pushed to one side, you should try different data transformations and see if any of them make the histogram look more normal. However, you may want to analyze it using a non-parametric test. Just about every parametric statistical test has a non-parametric substitute, such as the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test instead of a one-way anova, Wilcoxon signed-rank test instead of a paired t-test, and Spearman rank correlation instead of linear regression. These non-parametric tests do not assume that the data fit the normal distribution. They do assume that the data in different groups have the same distribution as each other, however; if different groups have different shaped distributions (for example, one is skewed to the left, another is skewed to the right), a non-parametric test may not be any better than a parametric one.","originalText":"ANOVA in based on the following assumption:1) each sample has been randomply selected from the population it represent; b) the distribution of data in the underlying population from which of the sample is derived is normal; c) homogeneity of variance (the variances of the k underlying populations rapresented by the k samples are equal to one other. If any of the aforementioned assumptions are SALIENTLY violated, the reability of the computed test statistics may be compromised. Simulation studies have shown that p-values from F-tests are highly sensitive to deviations from normality. Like other parametric tests, the analysis of variance assumes that the data fit the normal distribution. If your measurement variable is not normally distributed, you may be increasing your chance of a false positive result if you analyze the data with an anova or other test that assumes normality. Fortunately, an anova is not very sensitive to moderate deviations from normality; simulation studies, using a variety of nonnormal distributions, have shown that the false positive rate is not affected very much by this violation of the assumption (Glass et al. 1972, Harwell et al. 1992, Lix et al. 1996). This is because when you take a large number of random samples from a population, the means of those samples are approximately normally distributed even when the population is not normal. It is possible to test the goodness-of-fit of a data set to the normal distribution. Because you have a large enough data set, I suggest you just look at the frequency histogram. If it looks more-or-less normal, go ahead and perform an anova. If it looks like a normal distribution that has been pushed to one side, you should try different data transformations and see if any of them make the histogram look more normal. However, you may want to analyze it using a non-parametric test. Just about every parametric statistical test has a non-parametric substitute, such as the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test instead of a one-way anova, Wilcoxon signed-rank test instead of a paired t-test, and Spearman rank correlation instead of linear regression. These non-parametric tests do not assume that the data fit the normal distribution. They do assume that the data in different groups have the same distribution as each other, however; if different groups have different shaped distributions (for example, one is skewed to the left, another is skewed to the right), a non-parametric test may not be any better than a parametric one.","postDate":"Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:03:12 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Sergio Vai","authorUrl":"profile\/Sergio_Vai\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgstatic.net\ /i\/profile\/d912f508dacd2b8e55_m_fec4f.jpg","institution":"Azienda Sanitaria Locale Torino 4","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isModera tor":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false ,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActi onUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[ ],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":nul l,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5085a680e24a46d419000014popular"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm
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it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","originalText":"First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","postDate":"Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:48:25 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Michael Young","authorUrl":"profile\/Michael_Young7\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i1.rgstati c.net\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8f8f23978a8_m_60246.jpg","institution":"Kansas State University","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemo ve":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","d eleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDow nItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWi dget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50868f8 7e4f0767337000032","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.","originalText":"Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.","postDate":"Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:37:27 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Juan San Martin","authorUrl":"profile\/Juan_San_Martin\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgsta tic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","i nstitution":"University of Concepci\u00f3n","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":f
alse,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"sho wRemove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.htm l","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dr opDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"imp actWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508892c3e24a461b27000034","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"508892c 3e24a461b27000034","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"My Preferences as an Applied Statistician\n\nI have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have \nNEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. \nThere are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise \nfrom experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal \ndistributions arise when there are many small additive \ncontributions to the data, (3) observational data typically \narises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not \nerdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that \narises from human randomization do you have a good chance that \nthe resulting data are Gaussian.\n\nI believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests \non most data is to avoid any assumption of normality. I'd second \nthe routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normality-conditioned \ntests.","originalText":"My Preferences as an Applied Statistician\n\nI have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have \nNEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. \nThere are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise \nfrom experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal \ndistributions arise when there are many small additive \ncontributions to the data, (3) observational data typically \narises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not \nerdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that \narises from human randomization do you have a good chance that \nthe resulting data are Gaussian.\n\nI believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests \non most data is to avoid any assumption of normality. I'd second \nthe routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normality-conditioned \ntests.","postDate":"Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:15:47 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Steven Moffitt","authorUrl":"profile\/Steven_Moffitt\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgsta tic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","i nstitution":"Illinois Institute of Technology","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:19:57 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p
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\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"508e924 2e24a464801000004","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful:\n\nhttp:\/\/discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk\/2012\/08\/assumptionspart-1-normality.html","originalText":"Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful:\n\nhttp:\/\/discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk\/2012\/08\/assumptionspart-1-normality.html","postDate":"Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:27:14 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Andy Field","authorUrl":"profile\/Andy_Field\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i1.rgstatic.ne t\/i\/profile\/9fcfd507c031104799_m_d8888.jpg","institution":"University of Sussex","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5099469 ee4f076637200003c","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"In 'Statistics at Square One' 11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a ttest.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eyeball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).","originalText":"In 'Statistics at Square One' 11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a t-test.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if
the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eye-ball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).","postDate":"Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:19:26 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Michael Campbell","authorUrl":"profile\/Michael_Campbell6\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.r gstatic.net\/i\/profile\/3deec51e85c9c2a3f5_m_06757.jpg","institution":"The University of Sheffield","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false," isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemov e":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","de leteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDown Items":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWid get":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bd957e24a46232f00001b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"509bd95 7e24a46232f00001b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I just want to add one thing: \nANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake...\n\n*If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though.\n(Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).","originalText":"I just want to add one thing: \nANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake...\n\n*If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though.\n(Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).","postDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:09:59 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Felix Franke","authorUrl":"profile\/Felix_Franke\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstatic .net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","inst itution":"ETH Zurich","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM
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","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9fa6 7e4f076cd31000009","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects?\nI understand you tested normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?","originalText":"So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects?\nI understand you tested normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:22:47 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:27:42 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fbe1e4f076873c00000e","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9fbe 1e4f076873c00000e","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a p-value. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.","originalText":"A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a p-value. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:29:05 +0000","createdTime":"10 months
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(scientifically not so interesting, but usually *the* main thing to be done with the data...) it *is* required that the (limiting!) frequency distribution is *identical* to the normal probability distribution (or at least \"quite identical\"). Here, the central limit theorem may come into play, but then we have the same problem as above: if there is little data, violations matter and give wrong results (mostly false-negatives; so the research is rendered to waste of time and money), if there is a lot of data, violations don't matter (much) but the p-values will anyway be close to zero.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:45:52 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:49:50 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa0e6 ae39d5e670d00000f","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method","originalText":"checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:48:10 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Deepak k s","authorUrl":"profile\/Deepak_K_s\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstatic.net\/c \/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","institution ":"Amrita Institute of Medical Sciences","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[
"generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa196 ae39d5ee13d00001a","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Deepak, there is never something \"best\" in general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for instance ShapiroWilk).","originalText":"Deepak, there is never something \"best\" in general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for instance Shapiro-Wilk).","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:35:06 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgenerated-
rg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa368 ce39d5e4f55000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?","originalText":"Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:39:24 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove" :false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","dele teActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIt ems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidge t":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa53c 8e39d5e6727000030","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that \"residual\" actually is the better word here.\n\nYes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups.\n\nIf there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of \"subgroups\" with only very few values in each of these \"subgroups\". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing
will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, false-positive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a p-value for a p-value ...).\n\nShowing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.","originalText":"To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that \"residual\" actually is the better word here.\n\nYes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups.\n\nIf there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of \"subgroups\" with only very few values in each of these \"subgroups\". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, falsepositive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a p-value for a p-value ...).\n\nShowing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:44:08 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":"approved","editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.h tml","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html"," dropDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"i mpactWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38
+0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa6de 0e39d5e2e0d000032","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. Shapiro-Wilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.\nNow, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?","originalText":"I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. Shapiro-Wilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.\nNow, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:35:28 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:39:26 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa78f ee24a467351000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"You distinguish \"one group\" and \"real experiment with several groups\". This distinction is
misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no \"location information\" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the \"reference\" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with \u00b5=0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location (\"typical or expected value\") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is \"special\" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the \"expected value\" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the \"expected value\" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal.\n\nShort: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model.\n\nIf there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data.\n\nWhatever can not be \"explained\" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this left-over does not contain any useable information (has the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. \n\nModels are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible).\n\nWhat is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. \n\nIf there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What \"relevant\" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no\/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide \"outside of the data\", using expertise.","originalText":"You distinguish \"one group\" and \"real experiment with several groups\". This distinction is misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no \"location information\" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the \"reference\" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with \u00b5=0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location (\"typical or expected value\") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is \"special\" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the \"expected value\" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the \"expected value\" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal.\n\nShort: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model.\n\nIf there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data.\n\nWhatever can not be \"explained\" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this left-over does not contain any useable information (has the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. \n\nModels are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible).\n\nWhat is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations
from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. \n\nIf there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What \"relevant\" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no\/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide \"outside of the data\", using expertise.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:22:54 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50ab591 ae39d5ef825000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.","originalText":"ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.","postDate":"Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:19:06 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Renukadevi Palaniswamy","authorUrl":"profile\/Renukadevi_Palaniswamy\/","authorImage":"http: \/\/c3.rgstatic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_defau lt_m.png","institution":"D.J. Academy for Managerial Excellence","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemo ve":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","d eleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDow nItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWi dget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003-
"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b3d19 7e39d5edb2900001e","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (K-W), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!","originalText":"Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (K-W), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!","postDate":"Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:31:19 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"James Roper","authorUrl":"profile\/James_Roper\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4fb4085f1eb51_m_2dfb3.jpg","institution":"UVV | Centro Universit\u00e1rio Vila Velha","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-edit-
content","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b3e48 ce24a46233a00000b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 \"Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures\" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by McGraw-Hill.","originalText":"Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 \"Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures\" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by McGrawHill.","postDate":"Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:52:12 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b43ed 1e4f0762557000012","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website http:\/\/sites.google.com\/site\/deborahhilton\/ there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution\n \n\n \nEffects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the
distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).","originalText":"Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website http:\/\/sites.google.com\/site\/deborahhilton\/ there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution\n \n\n \nEffects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).","postDate":"Tue, 27 Nov 2012 04:17:21 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Deborah Hilton","authorUrl":"profile\/Deborah_Hilton\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd50871e4757a71_m_98c01.jpg","institution":"Deborah Hilton Statistics Online","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b47e6 be4f076553a000021","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term \"error\" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects --- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects \"patient\" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including
patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability.\n\nIn addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the \"true\" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional \"error\" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so.\n\nIn practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear.\n\nFor this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently non-normal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals.\n\nAs for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because \"residuals\"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However, it does not work with continuous variables --- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.","originalText":"In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term \"error\" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects --- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects \"patient\" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability.\n\nIn addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the \"true\" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional \"error\" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so.\n\nIn practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear.\n\nFor this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently non-normal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals.\n\nAs for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because \"residuals\"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However,
it does not work with continuous variables --- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.","postDate":"Tue, 27 Nov 2012 08:48:43 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Emmanuel Curis","authorUrl":"profile\/Emmanuel_Curis\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstati c.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","ins titution":"Universit\u00e9 Ren\u00e9 Descartes - Paris 5","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isModera tor":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false ,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActi onUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[ ],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":nul l,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50bdd6d 1e4f076fa62000017","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.","originalText":"Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.","postDate":"Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:56:17 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Fathi M Sherif","authorUrl":"profile\/Fathi_M_Sherif\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg","institution":"University of Tripoli","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:34:16
+0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"511fb78 6e5438ffd75000011","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a sub-population and understand if you have a bias in your selection.","originalText":"The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a subpopulation and understand if you have a bias in your selection.","postDate":"Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:44:54 +0000","createdTime":"7 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alessandro Baldan","authorUrl":"profile\/Alessandro_Baldan\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgs tatic.net\/i\/profile\/32bfe511fb1f0b392b_m_33458.jpg","institution":"Universita degli studi di Ferrara","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:54:38 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-edit-
form","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"513f80e be39d5ed72e000000","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem.\r\n\r\nIf you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.","originalText":"Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem.\r\n\r\nIf you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.","postDate":"Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:24:27 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"513f9fc 8e39d5e3a5d000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.)
that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.","originalText":"You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.) that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.","postDate":"Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:36:08 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:27:03 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404050e4f0764141000000","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140405 0e4f0764141000000","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...","originalText":"Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:01:04 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Rui Marcelino","authorUrl":"profile\/Rui_Marcelino\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg","institution":"Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem
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data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404471d3df3e451f00003a");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404471d3df3e451f00003a\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51409bc 9e4f076d453000023","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. http:\/\/www.barnesandnoble.com\/w\/designing-experiments-and-analyzing-datascott-e-maxwell\/1101798089?ean=9781410609243 Hope this helps.","originalText":"The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. http:\/\/www.barnesandnoble.com\/w\/designing-experimentsand-analyzing-data-scott-e-maxwell\/1101798089?ean=9781410609243 Hope this helps.","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:31:21 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140e32 2d4c1183c7200000f","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?","originalText":"I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in
or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:46 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51418fabe24a465902000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51418fa be24a465902000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is \"internal\" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). \"The t-test tool.\" Significance: 40-41.\t\n\nEither way transformations can be useful.","originalText":"Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is \"internal\" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). \"The t-test tool.\" Significance: 40-41.\t\n\nEither way transformations can be useful.","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:51:55 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generated-
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ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141997be5438fff03000020");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141997be5438fff03000020\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5141a0e 9e4f076382600000b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes - statistics is all about understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?\". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/18266888 - just shameless promotion ;))","originalText":"Yes - statistics is all about understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?\". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/18266888 - just shameless promotion ;-))","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:05:29 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b-
\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5141a31 1e24a46fa74000018","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly \"random error\" or \"measurement error\" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (http:\/\/ediss.unigoettingen.de\/bitstream\/handle\/11858\/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844\/domhof.pdf?sequence=1) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.","originalText":"Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly \"random error\" or \"measurement error\" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (http:\/\/ediss.unigoettingen.de\/bitstream\/handle\/11858\/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844\/domhof.pdf?sequence=1) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:14:41 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51430dd 8d3df3eca11000024","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.","originalText":"I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of
samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.","postDate":"Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:02:32 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Fathi M Sherif","authorUrl":"profile\/Fathi_M_Sherif\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg","institution":"University of Tripoli","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove" :false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","dele teActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIt ems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidge t":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5143179cd3df3e5d3b00000d","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5143179 cd3df3e5d3b00000d","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Alexander, the problem with this question \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?\" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis.\n\n* However I can highly recommend the \"Lives of others\" \nhttp:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Das_Leben_der_Anderen","originalText":"Alexand er, the problem with this question \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?\" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis.\n\n* However I can highly recommend the \"Lives of others\" \nhttp:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Das_Leben_der_Anderen","postDate":"Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:44:12 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet
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rg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5163ca74d4c118825600000d");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5163ca74d4c118825600000d\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"516fbc5 5d11b8be425000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and non-parametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names).\nThe oneway independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test. If you have non-normally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.","originalText":"Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and non-parametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names).\nThe one-way independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test. If you have nonnormally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.","postDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:45 +0000","createdTime":"5 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Azubuike Chukwuka","authorUrl":"profile\/Azubuike_Chukwuka\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.r gstatic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd512931765d6ef_m_41b11.jpg","institution":"Universit y of Ibadan","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:15:58 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"516fbf5
bd2fd64f80b000008","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a \"location shift\" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a \"non-normal\" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: \"no\". The same, for sure, applies to the MW\/Wilcoxon test.","originalText":"Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a \"location shift\" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a \"non-normal\" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: \"no\". The same, for sure, applies to the MW\/Wilcoxon test.","postDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:39:39 +0000","createdTime":"5 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]}),c = Y.one("#rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008");if (!c) { Y.log("Cannot find container in DOM for widget \"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008\".", "warn"); Y.log(i); return; }i.setContainer(c);i.fire("rendered", c);})();(function(){var i = Y.rg.WidgetView.getInstance({"id":"rg-modulespublictopics-actionsPostCommentList","data":{"postKey":"To_what_extent_it_is_necessary_to_verify_the_ normality_of_the_data_in_ANOVAs_analysis","oldestDate":"2012-1022T21:26:28","commentCount":55,"hasComments":true,"multipleComments":true,"hasMor e":true,"postCommentItems":[{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5085ba04e39d5e9a02000007","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38
+0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5085ba0 4e39d5e9a02000007","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Thank you all for insightful answers.\n\nJuan San Martin, Andy Field's book is : \nDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method), from SAGE?","originalText":"Thank you all for insightful answers.\n\nJuan San Martin, Andy Field's book is : \nDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method), from SAGE?","postDate":"Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:26:28 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Rui Marcelino","authorUrl":"profile\/Rui_Marcelino\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg","institution":"Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5085ba04e39d5e9a02000007"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5086057 9e4f076fd1b000011","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","originalText":"First, remember that it's the *error* distribution that should be normally distributed. Given that, it's critical to verify the normality generally speaking. The degree of divergence in the computed values of statistics like p, F, etc., from their true values will be a function of the magnitude of the deviation from normality. Skewed data produce skewed estimates of the DV. However, I wouldn't immediately go non-parametric but instead determine whether the data can be transformed to normality or analyzed using a generalized (not general) linear model with different error distributional assumptions.","postDate":"Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:48:25 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Michael Young","authorUrl":"profile\/Michael_Young7\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i1.rgstati c.net\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8f8f23978a8_m_60246.jpg","institution":"Kansas State University","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemo ve":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","d eleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDow nItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWi dget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50860579e4f076fd1b000011-
"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50868f8 7e4f0767337000032","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.","originalText":"Yes, it isDiscovering Statistics Using SPSS (Introducing Statistical Method). You`ll find a brief review of consequences of violations of asumptions and also relevant authors for a more comprehensive review in his references.","postDate":"Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:37:27 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Juan San Martin","authorUrl":"profile\/Juan_San_Martin\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgsta tic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","i nstitution":"University of Concepci\u00f3n","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":f alse,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"sho wRemove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.htm l","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dr opDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"imp actWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50868f87e4f0767337000032"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508892c3e24a461b27000034","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"508892c 3e24a461b27000034","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"My Preferences as an Applied Statistician\n\nI have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have \nNEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. \nThere are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise \nfrom experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal \ndistributions arise when there are many small additive \ncontributions to the data, (3) observational data typically \narises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not \nerdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that \narises from human randomization do you have a good chance that \nthe resulting data are Gaussian.\n\nI believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests \non most data is to avoid any assumption
of normality. I'd second \nthe routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normality-conditioned \ntests.","originalText":"My Preferences as an Applied Statistician\n\nI have been an applied statistician since 1976, and I have \nNEVER encountered a large data set that passed normality tests. \nThere are several reasons for this: (1) seldom do data arise \nfrom experiments that perform randomization, (2) normal \ndistributions arise when there are many small additive \ncontributions to the data, (3) observational data typically \narises from a dynamic, time dependent process that is not \nerdogic. So,... only it you have true experimental data that \narises from human randomization do you have a good chance that \nthe resulting data are Gaussian.\n\nI believe that the only conservative, safe way to conduct tests \non most data is to avoid any assumption of normality. I'd second \nthe routine use of the bootstrap - NEVER use normality-conditioned \ntests.","postDate":"Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:15:47 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Steven Moffitt","authorUrl":"profile\/Steven_Moffitt\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgsta tic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","i nstitution":"Illinois Institute of Technology","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:19:57 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508892c3e24a461b27000034"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508a9d75e39d5e321d000004","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"508a9d7 5e39d5e321d000004","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The key classic text is Miller's Beyond ANOVA See\nhttp:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Beyond-ANOVA-AppliedStatistics-Statistical\/dp\/0412070111","originalText":"The key classic text is Miller's Beyond ANOVA See\nhttp:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Beyond-ANOVA-AppliedStatistics-Statistical\/dp\/0412070111","postDate":"Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:25:57 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508a9d75e39d5e321d000004"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[
"generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},null,{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"508e924 2e24a464801000004","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful:\n\nhttp:\/\/discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk\/2012\/08\/assumptionspart-1-normality.html","originalText":"Bearing in mind that ANOVA is a GLM you might find my recent blog on the topic helpful:\n\nhttp:\/\/discoveringstatistics.blogspot.co.uk\/2012\/08\/assumptionspart-1-normality.html","postDate":"Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:27:14 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Andy Field","authorUrl":"profile\/Andy_Field\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i1.rgstatic.ne t\/i\/profile\/9fcfd507c031104799_m_d8888.jpg","institution":"University of Sussex","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy508e9242e24a464801000004"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5099469 ee4f076637200003c","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"In 'Statistics at Square One' 11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a ttest.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eyeball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).","originalText":"In 'Statistics at Square One'
11th ed (Campbell MJ and Swinscow TDV) BMJ Books 2009 on page 83 is my response to the question 'Should I test my data for normality before using a t-test.' Basically the answer is that a formal test is a waste of time, particularly if the sample sizes are similar in teh groups, but always do an eye-ball test, particularly for checking for outliers. If the outcome is from a randomized experiment, then RA Fisher wrote (in The Design of Experiments) '.. the physical act of randomization .. affords the means in respect of any particular body of data, of examining the wider hypothesis in which no normality of distribution is implied'. In other words, if the outcome is from a randomised study, then one is to some extent protected from requiring the normality assumption, and I don't recall an instance where he did check for normality (though I could be proven wrong).","postDate":"Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:19:26 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Michael Campbell","authorUrl":"profile\/Michael_Campbell6\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.r gstatic.net\/i\/profile\/3deec51e85c9c2a3f5_m_06757.jpg","institution":"The University of Sheffield","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false," isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemov e":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","de leteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDown Items":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWid get":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5099469ee4f076637200003c"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bd957e24a46232f00001b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"509bd95 7e24a46232f00001b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I just want to add one thing: \nANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake...\n\n*If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though.\n(Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).","originalText":"I just want to add one thing: \nANOVA does not merely loose power (that is not rejecting the null although there was a significant effect) if the underlying assumptions* are not met, ANOVA can just produce dead wrong results giving you significance where none was. And I dont want to know how many results in science are based on this mistake...\n\n*If only the normality assumption is not met, ANOVA looses only power though.\n(Thanks to Jochen Wilhelm for pointing that out).","postDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:09:59 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Felix Franke","authorUrl":"profile\/Felix_Franke\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstatic .net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","inst itution":"ETH Zurich","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 17:21:46 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p
ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bd957e24a46232f00001b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bdef6e4f076fb1e000009","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"509bdef 6e4f076fb1e000009","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Felix, every test on alpha=5% guarantees you to get 5% false-positive results on tests performed on true H0s. The question is, if this rate is higher when the normality assumption is not met. Since the variance is often over-estimated when the assumption is not met, I think it is likely that this rate is even lower than 5%. But I would be happy to refine my prejustices.\n\nBtw: I find it much more critical that authors claim \"no effect\" when p>0.05, and that p<0.001 is considered \"more significant\" than p<0.05 (i.e. that p-values are compared), and that nullhypothesis tests and significance-tests are confused and intermingled.","originalText":"Felix, every test on alpha=5% guarantees you to get 5% false-positive results on tests performed on true H0s. The question is, if this rate is higher when the normality assumption is not met. Since the variance is often over-estimated when the assumption is not met, I think it is likely that this rate is even lower than 5%. But I would be happy to refine my prejustices.\n\nBtw: I find it much more critical that authors claim \"no effect\" when p>0.05, and that p<0.001 is considered \"more significant\" than p<0.05 (i.e. that p-values are compared), and that null-hypothesis tests and significance-tests are confused and intermingled.","postDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:33:58 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bdef6e4f076fb1e000009"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-right-
col"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509be8e9e39d5e674a00000d","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"509be8e 9e39d5e674a00000d","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Jochen, the second part I could not agree more. \nFor the first part... Thinking about it, I guess I should've written \"if the independence assumption is not met\" which goes into the direction of Steven Moffitt response. If you have some drift over time in your data, it might lead to wrong results.\n\nIf all assumptions except for the normality are fulfilled... I guess you are right.","originalText":"Jochen, the second part I could not agree more. \nFor the first part... Thinking about it, I guess I should've written \"if the independence assumption is not met\" which goes into the direction of Steven Moffitt response. If you have some drift over time in your data, it might lead to wrong results.\n\nIf all assumptions except for the normality are fulfilled... I guess you are right.","postDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 17:16:25 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Felix Franke","authorUrl":"profile\/Felix_Franke\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstatic .net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","inst itution":"ETH Zurich","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 17:22:18 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509be8e9e39d5e674a00000d"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bf338e4f076d74c000000","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"509bf33 8e4f076d74c000000","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Felix, I agree.","originalText":"Felix, I agree.","postDate":"Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:00:24 +0000","createdTime":"11 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy509bf338e4f076d74c000000"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm
entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7b076e24a467a0300001b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a7b07 6e24a467a0300001b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I support the warning \"particularly for checking for outliers\". In my experience, screening the data for outliers before performing the ANOVA is even more important than checking for normality.","originalText":"I support the warning \"particularly for checking for outliers\". In my experience, screening the data for outliers before performing the ANOVA is even more important than checking for normality.","postDate":"Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:42:46 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"P. Roussel","authorUrl":"profile\/P_Roussel\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/79e415025163b07dcc_m_9e9a1.jpg","institution":"imec Belgium","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove" :false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","dele teActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIt ems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidge t":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7b076e24a467a0300001b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7bfb5e24a465d3000000a","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a7bfb 5e24a465d3000000a","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Ok, but how do you judge data as being outliers? If the values are physically\/biologically nonsense, then it is clear, though. But if the values itself are possible\/resonable, then it might be that these \"outliers\" are the only data trying to tell you that your model is not correct...","originalText":"Ok, but how do you judge data as being outliers? If the values are physically\/biologically nonsense, then it is clear, though. But if the values itself are possible\/resonable, then it might be that these \"outliers\" are the only data trying to tell you that your model is not correct...","postDate":"Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:47:49 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem
ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a7bfb5e24a465d3000000a"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f1f5e24a46cb35000001","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9f1f 5e24a46cb35000001","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Can anyone make a practical example to test normality in SAS using the attached dataset?","originalText":"Can anyone make a practical example to test normality in SAS using the attached dataset?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 08:46:45 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":{"files":[{"name":"NormHov.xls","id":"9fcfd50a9f1f5376e6", "type":"file","url":"publictopics.PublicPostFileLoader.html?id=50a9f1f5e24a46cb35 000001&key=9fcfd50a9f1f5376e6"}]},"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":f alse,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"sho wRemove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.htm l","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dr opDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"imp actWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f1f5e24a46cb35000001"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f6a6e4f076242000000d","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9f6a 6e4f076242000000d","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Since the data are already in Excel, why not doing it in Excel?","originalText":"Since the data are already in Excel, why not doing it in Excel?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:06:46 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst
atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f6a6e4f076242000000d"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f709e24a46f645000018","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9f70 9e24a46f645000018","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Forgot the attachment. \r\nYou see that \r\n1) the normality assumption seems inappropriate\r\n2) using the log-transformed response, the normal assumption seems ok","originalText":"Forgot the attachment. \r\nYou see that \r\n1) the normality assumption seems inappropriate\r\n2) using the log-transformed response, the normal assumption seems ok","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:08:25 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":{"files":[{"name":"NormHov.xls","id":"9fcfd50a9f7092d0 56","type":"file","url":"publictopics.PublicPostFileLoader.html?id=50a9f709e24a46 f645000018&key=9fcfd50a9f7092d056"}]},"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreato r":false,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false, "showRemove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem .html","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html" ,"dropDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null, "impactWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9f709e24a46f645000018"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9fa6
7e4f076cd31000009","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects?\nI understand you tested normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?","originalText":"So that's a graphical approach. It is somewhat straightforward. Is there a P-value based approach, helpful for people with a lower familiarity with this aspects?\nI understand you tested normality on the residuals of the whole data set. Should normality be tested on the data as well? Should normality be tested per each group treatment in a factorial experiment instead of the whole dataset?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:22:47 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:27:42 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fa67e4f076cd31000009"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fbe1e4f076873c00000e","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9fbe 1e4f076873c00000e","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a p-value. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.","originalText":"A p-value based approach to test the assumptions for a subsequent test is not quite sensible. The important thing here is if the pattern and the size of the violation may be relevant. This is not reflected by a p-value. Consider this: If you have little data, p-values may be large even if the violation is strong; if you have much data, p-values are close to zero even if the violations are negligible.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:29:05 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW
idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9fbe1e4f076873c00000e"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50a9ffd 0e39d5eeb12000002","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The normality assumption refers to the ERRORS, not to the data. (also see Michael Youngs answer above) This is a common misconception (that the DATA should be normally distributed). In fact, to model a response by predictors using the normal error model it is not required that the residuals actually have a frequency distribution that looks like a normal probability distribution. The normal error model is a projection of our irgnorance (things we can not know and do not know about the reasons of variability of the data). A frequency distribution of the residuals that is strongly different from a normal probability distribution tells us that the model does not use all available information appropriately. It may be that this is still the best model available!\n\nHowever, for *testing* purposes (scientifically not so interesting, but usually *the* main thing to be done with the data...) it *is* required that the (limiting!) frequency distribution is *identical* to the normal probability distribution (or at least \"quite identical\"). Here, the central limit theorem may come into play, but then we have the same problem as above: if there is little data, violations matter and give wrong results (mostly false-negatives; so the research is rendered to waste of time and money), if there is a lot of data, violations don't matter (much) but the p-values will anyway be close to zero.","originalText":"The normality assumption refers to the ERRORS, not to the data. (also see Michael Youngs answer above) This is a common misconception (that the DATA should be normally distributed). In fact, to model a response by predictors using the normal error model it is not required that the residuals actually have a frequency distribution that looks like a normal probability distribution. The normal error model is a projection of our irgnorance (things we can not know and do not know about the reasons of variability of the data). A frequency distribution of the residuals that is strongly different from a normal probability distribution tells us that the model does not use all available information appropriately. It may be that this is still the best model available!\n\nHowever, for *testing* purposes (scientifically not so interesting, but usually *the* main thing to be done with the data...) it *is* required that the (limiting!) frequency distribution is *identical* to the normal probability distribution (or at least \"quite identical\"). Here, the central limit theorem may come into play, but then we have the same problem as above: if there is little data, violations matter and give wrong results (mostly false-negatives; so the research is rendered to waste of time and money), if there is a lot of data, violations don't matter (much) but the p-values will anyway be close to zero.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:45:52 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:49:50
+0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50a9ffd0e39d5eeb12000002"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa0e6 ae39d5e670d00000f","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method","originalText":"checking normality using Kolmogorov smirnov test is the best method","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:48:10 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Deepak k s","authorUrl":"profile\/Deepak_K_s\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstatic.net\/c \/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","institution ":"Amrita Institute of Medical Sciences","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa0e6ae39d5e670d00000f"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa196 ae39d5ee13d00001a","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Deepak, there is never something \"best\" in general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for instance ShapiroWilk).","originalText":"Deepak, there is never something \"best\" in general. KS test is one of a variety of possibilities, each one with its own pros and cons. Besides, there are tests desiged especially to test the normal distribution (for
instance Shapiro-Wilk).","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:35:06 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa196ae39d5ee13d00001a"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa368 ce39d5e4f55000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?","originalText":"Are Error and Residual the same thing? Therefore, testing normality on residuals,can the test be done on the whole dataset, while the groups(treatments) could be ignored at this stage? Instead, must the groups be considered for the homoscedasticity test?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:39:24 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove" :false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","dele teActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIt ems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidge t":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa368ce39d5e4f55000003"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the
data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa53c 8e39d5e6727000030","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that \"residual\" actually is the better word here.\n\nYes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups.\n\nIf there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of \"subgroups\" with only very few values in each of these \"subgroups\". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, false-positive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a p-value for a p-value ...).\n\nShowing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.","originalText":"To my opinion or my to use of language (talking about models), errors and residuals are the same. May be other people make a philosophical distinction here. I think that \"residual\" actually is the better word here.\n\nYes, the probability model refers to the residuals, to all residuals of the model. If the model is about several groups, possibly with interactions, the residuals are (neccesarily) taken from all data from all groups.\n\nIf there is heteroskedasticity, you would see it in the residual plots (QQ, predicted vs. residuals, predictor vs. residuals). In your example the predicted vs. residual plot shows heteroscedasticity. This could be tested for instance using a trend test on the absolute residuals (note: I would *not* recommend to actually do this, however). Between groups (predictor vs. residuals for a categorical predictor) -> Levene test (same note as above; to my knowledge only for very simple models with no interactions and no continuous covariates). If there is more than one group and also possible interactions, one has to test all level-combinations of all predictors, including possibe interactions. This results in a lot of \"subgroups\" with only very few values in each of these \"subgroups\". Now there are two problems: little data -> nothing will be significant anyway, and lots of tests -> multiplicity problem. I think you end up with a multitude of new philosophical problems about power, specificity, falsepositive and false-negative rates, and the correctness of the assumptions for the tests for normality and homoscedasticity. It is a bit like calculating a p-value for a p-value (for a p-value for a p-value ...).\n\nShowing that your model is reasonable is not the same thing as showing that your model is not the best possible model.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:44:08 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":"approved","editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.h tml","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html"," dropDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"i mpactWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa53c8e39d5e6727000030"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm
entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa6de 0e39d5e2e0d000032","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. Shapiro-Wilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.\nNow, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?","originalText":"I realised that for a hypothetical experiment including only one group (treatment), a normality test (e.g. Shapiro-Wilk, or a graphical approach) is identical when compared either on data or residuals. In a real experiment with several groups, normality test on residuals of the whole dataset, with some extent, summarize the several normality tests performed per each group. Indeed, all groups to be compared should have a normal distribution. Probably, this concept may be understood more easily from statistics-non-familiar people. Please correct me if I'm wrong.\nNow, one problem: residual caluclation depends on the model used. Thus, which model should be used to calculate the residuals: a saturated (all main factors with all possible interactions) or the best fitting (e.g.: only with significant main factors and interactions) model?","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:35:28 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Giovanni Bubici","authorUrl":"profile\/Giovanni_Bubici2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4ff40af9d343b_m_a283a.jpg","institution":"National Research Council","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:39:26 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa6de0e39d5e2e0d000032"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-right-
col"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50aa78f ee24a467351000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"You distinguish \"one group\" and \"real experiment with several groups\". This distinction is misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no \"location information\" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the \"reference\" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with \u00b5=0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location (\"typical or expected value\") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is \"special\" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the \"expected value\" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the \"expected value\" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal.\n\nShort: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model.\n\nIf there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data.\n\nWhatever can not be \"explained\" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this left-over does not contain any useable information (has the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. \n\nModels are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible).\n\nWhat is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. \n\nIf there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What \"relevant\" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no\/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide \"outside of the data\", using expertise.","originalText":"You distinguish \"one group\" and \"real experiment with several groups\". This distinction is misleading here. If you have one group, then you calculate a mean value (average) and analyze the residuals to this average. This determines that the average of the residuals is zero anyway. There is no \"location information\" anymore in the residuals. This information was removed by using the average as the \"reference\" to which the residuals were calculated. So *if* the frequency distribution of the residuals resembles a normal distribution, then neccesarily one with \u00b5=0. Only the variance is free. By using the average you already applied a (very simple) model to the data. The average is the result of the maximum-likelihood estimation based on the normal error model. This most simple model makes no use of any predictors. It gives a single summary value for the location (\"typical or expected value\") when there is no further information (like group membership, treatment, environmental factors...) known and when we have no reason to think that any partculat value is \"special\" in any way. If we further have no reason to believe that positive or negative deviations from the \"expected value\" are more likely, we end up in the normal error model, that is used to determine the likelihood of the data. The average is then just the \"expected value\" for which the likelihood of the data is maximal.\n\nShort: Calculating an average is already applying a (most simple) model.\n\nIf there are predictors available, the model can become more complicated, allowing to explain more of the variance seen in the data.\n\nWhatever can not be \"explained\" by the model is left over in the residuals. If this left-over does not contain any useable information (has
the maximum entropy), then the (limiting) frequency distribution will be normal. \n\nModels are never correct. Models are neccesarily simplified descriptions, reducing way too complex things to a few relevant aspects. Hence, real data will never have truely normally distributed residuals (what renders strict hypothesis tests about this insensible).\n\nWhat is a good model? A good model should not leave very much information in the data unused (or use the information inappropriately). This can be recognized by large, clear, pronounced deviations from normality of the residuals. Apart from this should a good model be justified by expertise. \n\nIf there is no expertise available: The simpler model is the better. Predictors with no relevant impact should not be used. What \"relevant\" is, though, needs some expertise again. However, removing a predictor with no\/little impact does not change the conclusions (much). Model selection is a big topic, there is a lot of literature available. To my opinion, much of this is overdone. One should keep things as simple as possible and decide \"outside of the data\", using expertise.","postDate":"Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:22:54 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50aa78fee24a467351000039"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50ab591 ae39d5ef825000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.","originalText":"ANOVA is a parametric test based on the assumption that the data follows normal. hence it is necessary to test the normality. if the data does not follow normal distribution then we can opt for non-parametric tests like Kruskkal - Wallis test.","postDate":"Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:19:06 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Renukadevi Palaniswamy","authorUrl":"profile\/Renukadevi_Palaniswamy\/","authorImage":"http: \/\/c3.rgstatic.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_defau lt_m.png","institution":"D.J. Academy for Managerial Excellence","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false, "isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemo ve":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","d eleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDow nItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWi dget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50ab591ae39d5ef825000003-
"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b3d19 7e39d5edb2900001e","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (K-W), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!","originalText":"Error = residual. ANOVA is also ROBUST to small departures from normality and the more important assumption is that of equal variances. I find that almost always if the residuals are not normally distributed, a simple transformation solves the problem - log transform is the best one to start in many (but not all) areas. You should NEVER just test residuals and then give up on a parametric test. Remember, the mean and variance are also parametric - if you use a NON-parametric ANOVA (K-W), then you CANNOT use the mean and variance (standard deviation, standard error) in your presentation of results either!","postDate":"Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:31:19 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"James Roper","authorUrl":"profile\/James_Roper\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/9fcfd4fb4085f1eb51_m_2dfb3.jpg","institution":"UVV | Centro Universit\u00e1rio Vila Velha","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3d197e39d5edb2900001e"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b3e48
ce24a46233a00000b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 \"Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures\" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by McGraw-Hill.","originalText":"Large topic- You might want ot take a look at Chapter 18 \"Anova Diagnostics and Remedial Measures\" in Kutner, Nachtsheim, Neter, & Li's _Applied Linear Statistics Models, 5th Ed._ by McGrawHill.","postDate":"Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:52:12 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b3e48ce24a46233a00000b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b43ed 1e4f0762557000012","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website http:\/\/sites.google.com\/site\/deborahhilton\/ there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution\n \n\n \nEffects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).","originalText":"Hello, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the electonic statistical textbook on the favourite links page of my website http:\/\/sites.google.com\/site\/deborahhilton\/ there is a section on Deviation from Normal Distribution\n \n\n \nEffects of violations. Overall, the F test (see also F Distribution) is remarkably robust to deviations from normality (see Lindman, 1974, for a summary). If the kurtosis (see Basic Statistics and Tables) is greater than 0, then the F tends to be too small and we cannot reject the null hypothesis even though it is incorrect. The opposite is the case when the kurtosis is less than 0. The skewness of the distribution usually does not have a sizable effect on the F statistic. If the n per cell is fairly large, then deviations from normality do not matter much at all because of the central limit theorem, according to which the sampling distribution of the mean approximates the normal distribution, regardless of the distribution of the variable in the population. A detailed discussion of the robustness of the F statistic can be found in Box and Anderson (1955), or Lindman (1974).","postDate":"Tue, 27 Nov
2012 04:17:21 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Deborah Hilton","authorUrl":"profile\/Deborah_Hilton\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd50871e4757a71_m_98c01.jpg","institution":"Deborah Hilton Statistics Online","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b43ed1e4f0762557000012"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50b47e6 be4f076553a000021","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term \"error\" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects --- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects \"patient\" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability.\n\nIn addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the \"true\" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional \"error\" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so.\n\nIn practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear.\n\nFor this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently non-normal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals.\n\nAs for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because \"residuals\"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However,
it does not work with continuous variables --- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.","originalText":"In the context of mixed models, some people seem to use the term \"error\" for all random effects, and residual for the (hopefully small) part of the data that is not explained by any predictor, either fixed effects or random effects --- so residuals are only a component of the error part of the model, that will also include for instance the random effects \"patient\" predictor. This approach is especially used, I think, when the fixed part of the model is of interest, and the random part (including patients) is just a kind of additional source of variability.\n\nIn addition, I would say that in the model Y = f(X) + epsilon, epsilon following a given law, epsilon is the error and it is (often) assumed that the epsilon_i are iid, or at least independant. In the contrary, the residual is the (y[observed] y[predicted]) value, which contains the realisation of the error epsilon, but also the (hopefully small) difference induced by the fact that f(X) estimated is not the \"true\" f(X), so is not only the error in the previous sense, but has additional \"error\" due to the imperfect estimation of the parameters. For this reason also, residuals are NOT independant even if the errors are assumed to be so. There are NOT homoscedastic, even is the errors are assumed to be so. And unless the model is linear, there is no reason for them to be Gaussian even if the errors are assumed to be so.\n\nIn practice, however, these last three points are assumed to be negligible for diagnostic purposes... Note however that there are Studentized residuals introduced just for this reason and really are independant, homoscedastic residuals like the error is assumed to be. But not Gaussian, instead distributed against a Student's law (hence their name) if the model is linear.\n\nFor this reason also in practice, interpretation of residuals diagnostics is a whole: apparently non-normal residuals can arise just because the model f(X) is too wrong, hence the residuals have a very strong part that is not the error; despite the error can still be Gaussian. So you cannot conclude on normality of the error just with normality diagnostics on the residuals.\n\nAs for Levene's tests (Levene or Brown-Forsythe variants), the only constraint is that you have only categorical data and several measures for each combination of these categorical data; the absence or presence of interaction does not matter (but obviously, residuals will change if an existing interaction is omitted from the model, so Levene's test on a really wrong model can be misleading because \"residuals\"): just consider a single factor indicating in which case of your categorical mix you are and use the Levene's test on this single factor. However, it does not work with continuous variables --- but some tests are available [Breusch-Pagan IIRC], though I do not use them enough to be clear in which conditions they work.","postDate":"Tue, 27 Nov 2012 08:48:43 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Emmanuel Curis","authorUrl":"profile\/Emmanuel_Curis\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/c3.rgstati c.net\/c\/msz2j4\/images\/template\/default\/profile\/profile_default_m.png","ins titution":"Universit\u00e9 Ren\u00e9 Descartes - Paris 5","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isModera tor":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false ,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActi onUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[ ],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":nul l,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50b47e6be4f076553a000021"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-right-
col"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"50bdd6d 1e4f076fa62000017","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.","originalText":"Basically, in ANOVA analysis, Data or samples that are used should be parametric (e.g., normal distribution, or n is a large number in each group in order to reduce variations), however, the test of distribution is necessary to give you the distribution of data even if the number is large, subgroups, bimodel or even more. The nonparamateric data or samples the test of analysi that are indicated is e.g., Kruskall-Wallis test which can be more reliable test for non-normal data and for the low number). However, this is a big topic in analysis of data among groups and a professional statisticians should be adviced for more groups subgroups and factors influencing the groups.","postDate":"Tue, 04 Dec 2012 10:56:17 +0000","createdTime":"10 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Fathi M Sherif","authorUrl":"profile\/Fathi_M_Sherif\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg","institution":"University of Tripoli","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:34:16 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy50bdd6d1e4f076fa62000017"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"511fb78 6e5438ffd75000011","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a sub-population and understand if you have a bias in your selection.","originalText":"The assumptions of the ANOVA have to be verified if you want to apply the test correctly. Moreover, I believe it is important to verify the normality of your data. It can give you a clear idea of the distribution. You can check if there is a subpopulation and understand if you have a bias in your selection.","postDate":"Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:44:54 +0000","createdTime":"7 months
ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alessandro Baldan","authorUrl":"profile\/Alessandro_Baldan\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgs tatic.net\/i\/profile\/32bfe511fb1f0b392b_m_33458.jpg","institution":"Universita degli studi di Ferrara","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:54:38 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy511fb786e5438ffd75000011"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"513f80e be39d5ed72e000000","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem.\r\n\r\nIf you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.","originalText":"Very short practical answer. If the data is more or less symmetrical and you have enough subjects (which you seem to have), there is no big practical problem.\r\n\r\nIf you have doubts, then use a nonparametric approach or another approach like logistic regression for binary data or proportional odds model fro ordinal data etc. But testing the normality assumption seems to be of little help in practical terms.","postDate":"Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:24:27 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f80ebe39d5ed72e000000"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-edit-
content","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"513f9fc 8e39d5e3a5d000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.) that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.","originalText":"You might want to take a look at Maxwell & Delaney's Designing Experiments & Analyzing Data (2nd Ed.) that read through the section on statistical assumptions (pp. 110-117) which talk about how expected values are affected, and discuss Anova's robustness. They also have a nice discussion of why the F test falters if you have unequal N's and unequal population variances (pp. 145-147) and a nice discussion of choosing between parametric & nonparametric tests (pp. 137-142). That way you can more accurately map this advice on to what we know about how F behaves under these various conditions. Hope this helps.","postDate":"Tue, 12 Mar 2013 21:36:08 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:27:03 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy513f9fc8e39d5e3a5d000039"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404050e4f0764141000000","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140405 0e4f0764141000000","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...","originalText":"Alexander Schacht, thanks for the answer. this is my understanding of the subject, also...","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:01:04 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Rui Marcelino","authorUrl":"profile\/Rui_Marcelino\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg","institution":"Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human
Development","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404050e4f0764141000000"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140416ce39d5e541700001c","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140416 ce39d5e541700001c","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Thanks for the clarifications, Philip Wood. However unfortunately I don't have assess to this book. Do you know if there is a digital version of these chapters?","originalText":"Thanks for the clarifications, Philip Wood. However unfortunately I don't have assess to this book. Do you know if there is a digital version of these chapters?","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:05:48 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Rui Marcelino","authorUrl":"profile\/Rui_Marcelino\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/d912f50852600e7856_m_8f999.jpg","institution":"Research Center in Sports Sciences, Health Sciences and Human Development","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false ,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRem ove":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html"," deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDo wnItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactW idget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140416ce39d5e541700001c"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404471d3df3e451f00003a","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140447 1d3df3e451f00003a","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The usual effect of lack of Normality is loss of power. The type one error rate is not inflated. However, note that it is not the original data that need to be Normally distributed but the noise elements of the model (which can be approximately established using the
residuals). A useful plot in general is that of the residuals versus the fitted values. Transformation can be a useful trick to restore normality. \r\n\r\nThe two attached plots show residual checking for a one-way layout (six treatments with six replicates per treatment) using GenStat. The first one shows lack of Normaiity of the residuals (the QQ plot on the lower left departs markedly from linearity) and also shows increasing variability as the values increase (plot on upper right of residuals versus fitted values). This suggests a logtransformation. The second plot shows that the residual on the log-scale are much better behaved.\r\n\r\nAs it turns out either analysis is 'significant' but the F statistic on 6 and 30 degrees of freedom is 6.3 in the first case but much higher at 40.1 in the second.","originalText":"The usual effect of lack of Normality is loss of power. The type one error rate is not inflated. However, note that it is not the original data that need to be Normally distributed but the noise elements of the model (which can be approximately established using the residuals). A useful plot in general is that of the residuals versus the fitted values. Transformation can be a useful trick to restore normality. \r\n\r\nThe two attached plots show residual checking for a one-way layout (six treatments with six replicates per treatment) using GenStat. The first one shows lack of Normaiity of the residuals (the QQ plot on the lower left departs markedly from linearity) and also shows increasing variability as the values increase (plot on upper right of residuals versus fitted values). This suggests a logtransformation. The second plot shows that the residual on the log-scale are much better behaved.\r\n\r\nAs it turns out either analysis is 'significant' but the F statistic on 6 and 30 degrees of freedom is 6.3 in the first case but much higher at 40.1 in the second.","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:18:41 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":{"files":[{"name":"Two diagnostic composite graphs.pdf","id":"504635140447116dd9","type":"file","url":"publictopics.PublicPos tFileLoader.html?id=51404471d3df3e451f00003a&key=504635140447116dd9"}]},"canEdit" :false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isModerator":false,"canRate":false,"h asFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postState":null,"editAction Url":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostComm entItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDropdown":false,"comme ntLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektorgeneratedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51404471d3df3e451f00003a"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51409bc 9e4f076d453000023","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. http:\/\/www.barnesandnoble.com\/w\/designing-experiments-and-analyzing-datascott-e-maxwell\/1101798089?ean=9781410609243 Hope this helps.","originalText":"The ebook version of Maxwell & Delaney is available for $80. from googlebooks. Alternatively, you can get it as an ebook for the Nook from Barnes & Noble. http:\/\/www.barnesandnoble.com\/w\/designing-experiments-
and-analyzing-data-scott-e-maxwell\/1101798089?ean=9781410609243 Hope this helps.","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:31:21 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51409bc9e4f076d453000023"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5140e32 2d4c1183c7200000f","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?","originalText":"I don't disagree with your general observations, Stephen, but notice that he has well over 10,000 observations in his posting of the question. So isn't the issue more appropriately whether he has a correct estimate of mean square error for contrasts he might be interested in or the inference difficulties from an unbalanced design?","postDate":"Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:46 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Phillip Wood","authorUrl":"profile\/Phillip_Wood\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i3.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f8d7a18766fd_m_cd53a.jpg","institution":"University of Missouri","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"i sModerator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove ":false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","del eteActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownI tems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidg et":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5140e322d4c1183c7200000f"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the
data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51418fabe24a465902000039","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51418fa be24a465902000039","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is \"internal\" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). \"The t-test tool.\" Significance: 40-41.\t\n\nEither way transformations can be useful.","originalText":"Philip, if he is going beyond the overall global F test to individual contrasts he probably should not be using ANOVA type contrasts at all. The t-test is robust if the contribution of the variance estimate is \"internal\" (based on the same observations that are used to calculate the mean) and if each mean is based on the same number of observations. It is only worth pooling variances from means not involved in the given contrast if degrees of freedom are scarce and they are not here. See Senn, S. J. (2008). \"The t-test tool.\" Significance: 40-41.\t\n\nEither way transformations can be useful.","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:51:55 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51418fabe24a465902000039"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy514192e8d3df3e7a59000011","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"514192e 8d3df3e7a59000011","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes - transformations can be useful. However, you may end up testing something different than you initially wanted to do. Especially in factorial designs you may want to look at additive effect and transformation of the data would look at whether factors \"multiply\" each other. If you just want to look whether two distributions are different, you may want to consider just the Wicoxon-Mann-Whitney test (this has actually many names), which basically looks whether the average rank is bigger in one group compared to the other. The nice thing about this test is its invariance under monotone transformations (others you would probably not consider anyway), i.e. no need to use he \"right\" transformation.\r\n\r\nHowever, Stephen Senn has also critiqued this test as it takes both variance and mean into account. But I would say, it is discussable if this is a feature or a bug :)","originalText":"Yes - transformations can be useful. However, you may end up testing something different than you initially wanted to do. Especially in
factorial designs you may want to look at additive effect and transformation of the data would look at whether factors \"multiply\" each other. If you just want to look whether two distributions are different, you may want to consider just the Wicoxon-Mann-Whitney test (this has actually many names), which basically looks whether the average rank is bigger in one group compared to the other. The nice thing about this test is its invariance under monotone transformations (others you would probably not consider anyway), i.e. no need to use he \"right\" transformation.\r\n\r\nHowever, Stephen Senn has also critiqued this test as it takes both variance and mean into account. But I would say, it is discussable if this is a feature or a bug :-)","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:05:44 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy514192e8d3df3e7a59000011"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141997be5438fff03000020","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5141997 be5438fff03000020","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Thanks, Alexander. My criticism of the WMW test is indeed 'that it takes mean and variance into account' but one has to be careful what this means. Even if the variance int the two groups is identical the overlap of ranks is a function of the variance. The degree to which the groups separate is a function of this variance. So, for example, if you single replace random blood pressure measurements by regular monitoring over an extended period you will get less overlap of the two distributions even though the mean shift is the same. You, of course, understand this very well but most users of WMW have no idea that this is the case.\n\nAs regards transformation I would say that the main task of the statistician is to find a scale on which the effect of any intervention is additive. This can frequently also lead to well-behaved residuals. However, the two do not have to be linked and then it may be necessary to have separate models for signal and noise.","originalText":"Thanks, Alexander. My criticism of the WMW test is indeed 'that it takes mean and variance into account' but one has to be careful what this means. Even if the variance int the two groups is identical the overlap of ranks is a function of the variance. The degree to which the groups separate is a function of this variance. So, for example, if you single replace random blood pressure measurements by regular monitoring over an extended period you will get less overlap of the two distributions even though the mean shift is the same. You, of course, understand this very well but most users of WMW have no idea that this is the case.\n\nAs regards transformation I would say that the main task of the statistician is to find a scale on which the effect of any intervention is additive. This can frequently also lead to well-behaved residuals. However, the two do not have to be linked and then it may be necessary to have separate models for signal and noise.","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:33:47
+0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141997be5438fff03000020"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5141a0e 9e4f076382600000b","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes - statistics is all about understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?\". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/18266888 - just shameless promotion ;))","originalText":"Yes - statistics is all about understanding the variation, isn't it? Understanding very well how the variance is, will help you understand the problem. And sometimes the question is more \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from groub B?\". Looking just into mean differences does not tell you very much about this, but the relative effect that the WMW is based upon will give you exactly this. Some discussion regarding this can be found here (http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/18266888 - just shameless promotion ;-))","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:05:29 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a0e9e4f076382600000b"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post
CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5141a31 1e24a46fa74000018","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly \"random error\" or \"measurement error\" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (http:\/\/ediss.unigoettingen.de\/bitstream\/handle\/11858\/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844\/domhof.pdf?sequence=1) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.","originalText":"Ah yes - and there is another point. It is important to know where the variance comes from - is it mainly \"random error\" or \"measurement error\" or is it really coming from some kind of natural variation within a biological sample. If it is mainly the first, then of course, there is less value in looking into the relative effect. (This is actually an argument by Sebastian Domhof (http:\/\/ediss.unigoettingen.de\/bitstream\/handle\/11858\/00-1735-0000-000D-F2844\/domhof.pdf?sequence=1) Unfortunately his PhD thesis never got published in English but is only available in German.","postDate":"Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:14:41 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5141a311e24a46fa74000018"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"51430dd 8d3df3eca11000024","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.","originalText":"I am not statisticain, But I would say that does have the number of samples any effect?. I mean if you have a large number of samples will sure minimaze the variation and more normality will be. Otherwise, use the nonparameteric and will sure be safe in conclusion.","postDate":"Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:02:32 +0000","createdTime":"6 months
ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Fathi M Sherif","authorUrl":"profile\/Fathi_M_Sherif\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgstat ic.net\/i\/profile\/f2faf4ec94f146a4e7_m_25d91.jpg","institution":"University of Tripoli","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"is Moderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove" :false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","dele teActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIt ems":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidge t":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy51430dd8d3df3eca11000024"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5143179cd3df3e5d3b00000d","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5143179 cd3df3e5d3b00000d","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Alexander, the problem with this question \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?\" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis.\n\n* However I can highly recommend the \"Lives of others\" \nhttp:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Das_Leben_der_Anderen","originalText":"Alexand er, the problem with this question \"Will a subject from group A have a bigger endpoint than those from group B?\" is that the lives of others* are not available as an alternative. What a patient has is a choice between futures: that if a drug is taken and that if it is not. The extent to which the measured values of two groups of patients overlap does not address this question directly. Having said that I am a great fan of Brunner, Domhof and Langer so thanks for having directed me to Sebastian's PhD thesis.\n\n* However I can highly recommend the \"Lives of others\" \nhttp:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Das_Leben_der_Anderen","postDate":"Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:44:12 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Stephen Senn","authorUrl":"profile\/Stephen_Senn\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rgstatic.n et\/i\/profile\/8d1c84f50958fd8cad_m_52035.jpg","institution":"Public Research Centre for Health","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove": false,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delet eActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownIte ms":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget ":null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5143179cd3df3e5d3b00000d"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi
ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5163ca74d4c118825600000d","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"5163ca7 4d4c118825600000d","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Yes - this movie is great.\nand yes, that lives of others are not an alternative. What I wanted to say is that the values of the patients from group A would be informative about further patients in the future getting the same treatment A. Thus said, it would inform you about how the alternative treatments, wouldn't it?","originalText":"Yes - this movie is great.\nand yes, that lives of others are not an alternative. What I wanted to say is that the values of the patients from group A would be informative about further patients in the future getting the same treatment A. Thus said, it would inform you about how the alternative treatments, wouldn't it?","postDate":"Tue, 09 Apr 2013 07:59:48 +0000","createdTime":"6 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Alexander Schacht","authorUrl":"profile\/Alexander_Schacht\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i2.rg static.net\/i\/profile\/79e41501f9a0ff1400_m_81508.jpg","institution":"Eli Lilly","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isMo derator":false,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":f alse,"postState":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","delete ActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItem s":[],"showDropdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget" :null,"widgetId":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy5163ca74d4c118825600000d"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"516fbc5 5d11b8be425000003","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and non-parametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names).\nThe oneway independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test. If you have non-normally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.","originalText":"Although this may be an indirect answer to ur question, i thought it was worth mentioning that ANOVA can be robust to violations of its assumptions, but not always. on the alternative. There are a group of tests (often called assumption-free, distribution-free and non-parametric tests, none of which are particularly accurate names).\nThe one-way independent ANOVA has a non-parametric counterpart called the Kruskal\u2013Wallis test. If you have non-
normally distributed data, or have violated some other assumption, then this test can be a useful way around the problem.","postDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:45 +0000","createdTime":"5 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Azubuike Chukwuka","authorUrl":"profile\/Azubuike_Chukwuka\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.r gstatic.net\/i\/profile\/9fcfd512931765d6ef_m_41b11.jpg","institution":"Universit y of Ibadan","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false,"isM oderator":false,"isModified":false,"modificationDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:15:58 +0000","modifierIsCreator":false,"modifierIsCurator":null,"modifierIsEditor":fals e,"canRate":false,"hasFlagged":false,"hasLiked":false,"showRemove":false,"postSta te":null,"editActionUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","deleteActionUrl":"p ublictopics.PostCommentItem.ajaxDeleteAttachment.html","dropDownItems":[],"showDr opdown":false,"commentLiking":null,"scoreWidget":null,"impactWidget":null,"widget Id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbc55d11b8be425000003"},"yuiModules":["rgwidgetloader","rg.views.publictopics.PostCommentItemView"],"templateExtensions":[ "generalHelpers","datetimeHelpers"],"templateName":"publictopics\/stubs\/PostComm entItem.html","partials":{"PostAttachments":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostAttachm ents.html","PostModification":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostModification.html","P ostEditForm":"topics\/stubs\/partials\/PostEditForm.html","actionDropDown":"publi ctopics\/stubs\/partials\/actionDropDown.html"},"viewClass":"views.publictopics.P ostCommentItemView","widgetUrl":"http:\/\/www.researchgate.net\/publictopics.Post CommentItem.html","attrs":{"flagDialogUrl":"topics.FlagCommentDialog.html","delet eUrl":"publictopics.PostCommentItem.html","formContainerSelector":".post-editform","contentContainerSelector":".post-editcontent","promoteCommentUrl":"topicsadmin.PromoteCommentDialog.html"},"pageLayout ":{"#main":"logged-out-header-support cols-60-40","#content":"has-rightcol"},"pageTitle":"To what extent it is necessary to verify the normality of the data in ANOVA's analysis?","stylesheets":[]},{"id":"rg-injektor-generatedrg_modules_publictopics_actions_PostCommentItemProxy516fbf5bd2fd64f80b000008","data":{"now":"Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:10:38 +0000","isLoggedIn":false,"isHidden":false,"postType":"comment","postId":"516fbf5 bd2fd64f80b000008","type":"comment","title":null,"text":"Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a \"location shift\" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a \"non-normal\" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: \"no\". The same, for sure, applies to the MW\/Wilcoxon test.","originalText":"Azubuike, the KW test tests the null that all samples come from the *same* distribution.This means that this test will give you low p-values when the data is unlikely under this hypothesis. Is this what you want? I think this is often not the question. I think that most often the main research question is for a \"location shift\" (and not for a change in the distribution). A location shift is tested then and ONLY then when all other distributional characteristics (all higer moments like variance, skewedness, kurtosis,...) are identical. And exactly this is often clearly NOT the case, especially if the data show a \"non-normal\" distribution (I often see that mean and variance are correlated). If you have such data, then the question is: what is the KW-test actually testing? And is this really the question you are interesed in? I think. the answer is most often: \"no\". The same, for sure, applies to the MW\/Wilcoxon test.","postDate":"Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:39:39 +0000","createdTime":"5 months ago","institutionUrl":false,"hasAuthor":true,"authorName":"Jochen Wilhelm","authorUrl":"profile\/Jochen_Wilhelm2\/","authorImage":"http:\/\/i4.rgst atic.net\/i\/profile\/79e414fba27a4ae394_m_3c3ca.jpg","institution":"JustusLiebig-Universit\u00e4t Gie\u00dfen","attachments":[],"canEdit":false,"canDelete":false,"isCreator":false
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