350M5

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FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date of transcription 4/22/98

On March 31, 1998, a cooperating witness (CW) was

interviewed at an undisclosed location. Present at the interview
were Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Special Agents (SAs)
and New York City Police
Department (NYCPD) Detective • — Also
present was Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) PATRICK
FITZGERALD, Southern District of New York (SONY).
CW stated that he had knowledge of an individual named
ABU HAFS AL MASRI, also known as (aka) Abu Hafs Al Kabir, who is
a close associate of OSAMA BIN LADIN. CW stated that he first
met ABU HAFS after leaving New York and going to Peshawar,
Pakistan in 1987-1988. CW indicated that he actually met ABU
HAFS in the Jaji Camp which was used to train people to
participate in the war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. CW
stated that he saw ABU HAFS and ABU UBAIDAH AL BANSHIRI with BIN
LADIN prior to the formation of Al Qaida. ABU HAFS was part of
the original group of people to form the Al Qaida organization
which eventually transformed into the Islamic Army. CW explained
that ABU HAFS controlled most of the military aspects in
Afghanistan and reported to Al-BANSHIRI and BIN LADIN and
eventually became the number 2 military man in the Al Qaida
organization under Al-BANSHIRA. CW stated that ABU HAFS had
traveled to the various training camps to interview new people
and make sure they were receiving the training necessary to fight
in Afghanistan. ABU HAFS traveled to the Sada Camp, the Khalid
Iben Walid Camp in the Khost area. In 1989 ABU HAFS helped form
several new camps between the Torham area and the Jalalabad area
and was responsible for running all the camps and training areas
at that time. CW stated that ABU HAFS had additional
responsibilities for producing training manuals and media
releases with an individual named ABU REUTER.

CW described HAFS as a serious individual who behaves

and looks like a soldier and may have been in the Egyptian Army.
CW also stated that HAFS was wounded in the Battle of Jalalabad
and has a visible wound on his left arm and has another wound on
the back of his head. HAFS is described as 6'2" tall, thin

Investigation on 3/31/98 at Undisclosed Location

D»le dictated 4/6/98

This document contains neither recommendilions nor conclusions of the FBI. It a the property of the FBI and is loined to your tgtacy;

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was also decided that killing with a knife was permissible if the
village that was under attack or suspected of helping government
forces was close to a city. It was determined that the sound of
gunfire may draw attention to the village and prompt a response
by government forces.

CW stated that after his return from Zagreb, Croatia in

1992/1993 ABU HAFS and ABU TALHA AL SUDANI went to Somalia
because a fatwa was issued against the United States and United
Nation Forces operating in Somalia. CW stated that SAAD AL
SHERIF, ABU FARRAG AL-YEMENI (Islamic Army), Dr. SHARAF ALDIN ALI
MUKHTAR (NIF), SALAH GHOSH (NIF/Sudanese Intelligence Service)
were the individuals charged with actually implementing the plans
to go ahead and act on the fatwa issued by the Islamic Army
regarding Somalia.
CW indicated that' OSMAN ALSAID, a National Islamic
Front official who was stationed in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia,
assisted in providing funding for operations in Somalia. CW
indicated that funding went through an individual named ABDELLAH
SULIMAN AL-AWAD, a manager of the African Islamic Relief
Organization. The final destination of the funding was
Mogadishu, Somalia. The money was then given to MOHAMMAD CANO,
who has fighting groups in Somalia. CW indicated that ABU HAFS
went to Mogadishu, Somalia two times and indicated that all
operations against U.S. troops were "our people", meaning Islamic
Army operations. CW stated that the first trip to Somalia by ABU
HAFS was with ABU TALAH AL SUDANI/ ABU ISLAM AL MASRI, ABU HASSAN
Al-YEMENI of the SAIF ISLAMI and Jannubi group. That first trip
by HAFS was to set up a camp to train people for combat against
U.S. troops in Somalia. MOHAMMAN CANO reported to MOHAMED FARA
ADID. ABU TALAH AL-SUDANI told the CW that he, SUDANI and ABU
HAFS were working in a camp outside Mogadishu with MOHAMMAD CANO
to train people to fight U.S. soldiers in close combat. CW
stated that ABU UBAIDAH told most senior Islamic members to be
ready to go to Somalia to participate in the fighting. This
included the CW and AL-TAYYIB.

CW stated that prior to ABU HAFS' third trip to Somalia

ABU HAFS submitted a report to OSAMA BIN LADIN-regarding what can

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be done in Somalia. HAFS reported that he tried to form a

coalition against U.S. forces but failed. HAFS stated that he
could not recruit the different factions in order to do a
coordinated effort against the United States. HAFS, therefore,
decided to fight U.S. troops on a smaller scale. CW stated that
after receiving HAFS report, OSAMA BIN LADIN gave a lecture on a
Thursday meeting regarding. Somalia and why Americans should be
attacked. This lecture included statements like the United
States was the head of the snake. CW stated that this particular
lecture regarding Somalia by OSAMA BIN LADIN was more direct and
comprehensive then any other lecture previously given: because it
was based on the reports given by ABU HAFS as a result of his
second trip to Somalia. CW heard OSAMA BIN LADIN say that the
lecture was a result of ABU HAFS' trip and HAFS was at this
lecture to answer any questions.
CW stated that SAAD AL SHERIF also gave a lecture on
why jihad should be done in Somalia against U.S. and United
Nation forces. CW further indicated that ABU UBAIDAH AL-BANSHIRI
also gave speeches pertaining to Somalia and jihad. ABU HAJER
(PH) gave lectures regarding Somalia in the Riyadh section of
Khartoum. The focus of this speech was against the United
Nations and that it was anti-Islamic. HAJER (PH) stated that
even though the Sudan is a member of the United Nations the NIF
was not part of the United Nations and that the Sudanese
government would eventually drop out of the United Nations.
CW reported that after all the reports by ABU HAFS were
analyzed and recommendations made, it was finally decided that no
all out assault on U.S. or United Nations troops could be
accomplished because of the lack of support by the many factions
in Somalia. It was decided that the Islamic Army would try to
run a guerilla type war against U.S. troops in Somalia to include
hit and run tactics. This would not be an Afghanistan/Soviet
Union type of war. ABU HAFS was then dispatched back to Somalia
for a third time with these recommendations and attempted to
effect a limited guerilla war Against U.S. and United Nations
troops.
CW stated that ABU HAFS' third trip to Somalia was with

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ABU ISLAM who is good with the rocket propelled grenade and the
Milan (ph) (guided rockets)/ ABU TALHA AL SUDANI, mortar
instructor and ABU HASSAN AL YEMENI, explosives expert. CW
stated that HAFS and company went by boat to Somalia that was the
same boat, tan in color, that previously transported weapons and
explosives to Saudi Arabia. CW recalled that the name of the
boat ended with "TAL". CW further stated that at least 60-70 men
from the Islamic Army went to Somalia. Some went from the Sudan
to Somalia through Mombasa, Kenya (a Muslim area). CW stated
that when HAFS returned from his third trip to Somalia he (CW)
saw him at HAFS' home with about ten other people, including
MOHAMED SULEIMAN NALFI. CW reported HAFS to say that any action
against U.S. forces in Somalia was "our people". HAFS further
stated that while leaving Somalia by car he was stopped often by
Somalian road blocks and is asked why this "white guy" is in the
area. HAFS stated to the CW that they were able to negotiate
with the Somalians to get a ride in an airplane that smuggles
Khat outside of Mogadishu to a location by the ocean. HAFS then
told the CW that he came back to the Sudan by boat. CW stated
that before HAFS came back to Sudan he heard that a U.S.
helicopter was attacked in Mogadishu and stated that the reaction
to the attack on U.S. troops was good.
TALHA AL SUDANI, aka Haythem, told the CW that what
HAFS said is true. ABU TALHA AL SUDANI stated that it was
because of the actions of the Islamic Army that the Americans
were leaving Somalia. SUDANI indicated that the type of guerilla
war or hit and run tactics was the best way to fight in Somalia
and that an all out "Afghan type war" was not possible. CW
reported that OSAMA BIN LADIN stated that they would have liked
to do more against the U.S. but they did not have the chance.

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