INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO OCTOBER 12, 2013 RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Chris Hedges Click here for

video Click here for audio [REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: There's nothing unfairly partisan about pointing the finger at one political party in criticizing the latest government shutdown. One political party has harbored politicians who overtly denigrate the very concept of government as a force for good. That same party harbors a number of elected leaders who overtly campaigned with promises of shutting down the federal government - attaching those promises to Obamacare, to funding for Planned Parenthood, to the federal budget Confounding Democrats and mainstream Republicans, a chaotic gaggle of Tea Party legislators is in the process of radically redefining our national politics by doing exactly what they promised to do. Well, you may well ask, how can such a destructive agenda makes sense? A number of respected analysts have spoken out in recent days, suggesting that the reason it doesn't make sense is that while it's easy to see what's being torn down, it's not yet visible what's being built in its stead. A particularly well-respected voice on this issue belongs to Pulitzer prize-winning journalist and author Chris Hedges. I well remember seven - almost eight - years ago in January, I sat down with Chris Hedges, and it was the first interview that I ever did on State of Belief Radio. I remember that the microphone looked like it was catching on fire, and he is still speaking just that way - with truth and with passion - and Chris, I am so glad to have you with us on State of Belief Radio. [CHRIS HEDGES, GUEST]: Thank you. [WG]: What do you say is the backstory to the whole government shutdown? Who's gaining from this? [CH]: This has long been the goal of the radical Christian Right that draws on Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism, and that goes all the way back to ideologues such as Rousas Rushdoony and others. They seek to reduce government to internal security, defense, and the protection of property rights; and they look at all of the other functions of government as impediments to the creation of a Christian State. They see, for instance, the Department of Education as propagating - and this is their view, the ideology of Secular Humanism. And for them, government, with the exception of those three areas that I mentioned, is a force that is, you know, aligned, within their extremist

rhetoric, with the antichrist and has be destroyed. And so you are seeing this ideology being expressed on the House floor. Its most visible figure is, of course, Senator Ted Cruz, who comes out of this tradition; his father himself is a pastor in this mold. And I think that the wider public hasn't grasped the ideological roots, nor the fact that the destruction of government and they have found the weapon to do it - has long been part of their game plan, and is something that they rejoice in, rather than see as a temporary evil. They see government as something that, largely, has to be abolished, and they have found the weapon, the mechanism, to essentially do just that. And in that sense, I'm very frightened, because I don't think we're dealing with rational people here. I don't think this is juts a tactic. I think this has a long ideological history, rooted in the radical Christian Right, and I think when they say that this is their goal I take them very seriously. [WG]: Chris, not all of our people understand what "dominion" is and how that arose. I want to ask you, if you will, to talk a minute about that; and then I will ask you to connect the dots between that kind of philosophy and what we're seeing happening right now. [CH]: Well, Dominionism is a very peculiar ideally. They will refer to themselves as "Evangelicals" or "Fundamentalists" - that's a misnomer. I mean, traditional Evangelicals - take the old Baptist Church: while they would be conservative on social issues - at least before they've been reconfigured - they were often allied with the working class and social policies. You always had a break between Fundamentalists and Evangelicals; indeed, Fundamentalists, who always called on believers to remove themselves from the contaminant of secular society, shunned politics. Even Billy Graham, after getting too close to Richard Nixon, talked about keeping politics at arm's length. Dominionism is about the fusion of the nation with the Christian religion. The belief that believers are called to create the Christian State to prepare the way for Christ to return. So it flips Millenialism on its head: it's not that Christ comes back to create the Kingdom, it's that we create the Kingdom for Christ - I mean, that's where it comes from. But what it really is, is about achieving state power, And for the last couple decades that has been the goal of Dominionists, of Christian Reconstructionists. And they have a significant foothold, now, in the House of Representatives, although a minority. They have been able to use this technique to essentially shut down the government. And this is something that has been preached by Dominionists for a long time: that government is an evil that has to be destroyed; that education and social services should be turned over to the Church. They see themselves in an ideological war, and the secular institutions within the wider society - and within the government - as propagating an ideology which is

antithetical to their very peculiar version of Christianity. And it's a kind of binary view of the world, black-and-white, good and evil. That's where they're coming from; that's what they seek. And I think that we talk about the Tea Party, we talk about the Conservative wing of the Republican Party without grasping their belief system - which I've read, I know which you know as well - you known and my book was called "American Fascists: the Christian Right and the War on America." And I see it as replicating, in Christian garb, the ideology of Fascism, complete with you. The hyper masculinity, and everything else that always comes with, you know, the hypermasculinity and everything else that always comes with Fascism. [WG]: Chris, do you see Senator Ted Cruz as a Dominionist? [CH]: Yes. Without question, yeah. [WG]: And you said this is at least in part due to his background? [CH]: Yeah, I mean, he comes out of that tradition. His father is one of the stalwarts. [WG]: Why is the media is so reticent to tell us about it? [CH]: Because they don't understand it. Having spent fifteen years working for the New York Times, they are willing to accept the kind of religious veneer that this movement puts on themselves at face value without actually exploring their belief systems. So they describe them as "Conservative Christians," when in fact I think they're something very different and something very dangerous. You know, in Liberal secular newsrooms like The New York Times, there's at once a kind of disdain for all religiosity of any type, coupled with the fact of no real background, no real understanding of theology itself or of various forms of Christian belief. They just don't know it. And so I think that a lot of it comes out of ignorance. And of course, Welton, as you know, I am a seminary graduate and grew up in the Church, but I think when I worked at The New York Times, I was probably the only seminary graduate in the newsroom. [WG]: Well, and I can honestly see how someone from a sheer secular perspective would say, "Surely they're not serious about this." This seems unbelievable. [CH]: I think that's the biggest mistake people are making, that they're not

serious. And I think that the reason that they can write them off is that they don't actually understand their formation and what it is they believe, and how they look at the world. And that takes a lot of investigation of a lot of work, because they speak one way to the wider society and to the public, and another way to themselves. And one has to get inside these movements - as I did - and see what they're saying amongst themselves to understand that there's a deep antipathy to government, to secular society, to Liberal Democracy, even, is very, very real. And now, of course, we are seeing its expression. [WG]: In reading your latest TruthDig article, I was reminded of a quote from Karl Popper that you included at the beginning of your book "American Fascists": "If we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." How do you see that, as relating to the situation that we're facing today? [CH]: I think that that quote is very apt. These are people who seek to work within the system only because they have to. Their goal is to destroy the system, and they're doing a pretty good job of it right now. And once they don't have to work within the system, they intend to eradicate all elements within the society that don't conform to their ideology - whether that's the school system, the press, people like us who they would condemn as nominal Christians because we don't embrace their belief system, government departments from education to labor to everything else. They are quite, quite serious about using every tool at their disposal to reconfigure the society and use all institutions, in essence, as forms of indoctrination. [WG]: What would be the long-term consequences of President Obama giving in to the current extremist demands of the Tea Party? [CH]: Well, this is a movement that has been burrowing into the political system, now, for a couple decades. I think it's a movement that would need a crisis in order to actually come to power. That could be a manufactured crisis - they may indeed be able to manufacture a crisis that swells the ranks - but the more that the self-identified Liberal mainstream is discredited and rendered inpatient, the more persuasive their argument becomes, and the more powerful they become and that's certainly their goal. So they're quite willing to slash and burn - to carry out a quite vicious campaign and I think that a lot of people have read it wrong by saying that it may backfire on, sort of, more mainstream Republicans like Boehner, but for those people like Cruz, who are in the heart of that movement, they're certainly going to be seen

as heroes. And let's not forget that they are very heavily bankrolled; there's a lot of money behind them. [WG]: Talk about the synergy between dark money special interest groups and the Dominionist faction. Where do their agendas converge? [CH]: Well, you have powerful, right-wing corporate entities that have converged with the Dominionists in that they seek to weaken government and government control: government regulations that prevent monopolies; government tax systems; and so the large, sort of, corporate finance pacs that were at work in the last presidential election have now been able to funnel their resources into this movement. Not because, I think, they embrace the ideology, but because they see the goals of this movement as something that converges with what their own self-interest are. In the long run, of course, they're very foolish. When we saw this in the rise of Fascism in Germany, where the German industrialists backed the Nazi Party and didn't understand what they'd done. And I think in a similar kind of way, these people are so unplugged from reality that even those business interests and corporate interests that are bankrolling them at this moment - you know, should they come to power, will one day deeply regret it. [WG]: Yeah. I think it's fair to say that most Americans are not ready to believe how comprehensive the changes that some of these folks have in mind actually are. I'm curious, do you think that even the Democrats and the Republicans in Congress truly understand what has hit them? [CH]: No. I think that they don't understand. And I covered the war in Yugoslavia. These figures are often dismissed as buffoonish, in the way that Radovan Karadi was, and others. I think people look at them - I mean, correctly - as slightly unhinged, but don't understand how deadly a force they are. And I think that history has repeated that mistake. And let's be clear: our Liberal mainstream is very anemic and very weak and very impotent, and largely discredited because of that - again replicating what I saw in Yugoslavia, or you can go back to Weimar. And should there be any kind of a collapse or crisis, you may very well replicate the scenario that happened in Yugoslavia where that weak, sort of, traditional Liberal Center was utterly discredited because of the crisis, and people turned to these very frightening figures that were sort of vomited up on the fringes of society. But yes, I think people don't understand. They don't take these people seriously, in the same way that in Yugoslavia, the rabid, ethnic nationalists like Slobodan Miloevi were not taken seriously. And history has shown that that's a very big

mistake. [WG]: Talking within the context we're talking about right now, if you had a minute to get the President's ear, what would you say to President Obama about what we're talking about? [CH]: Well, I mean, I came to the conclusion - it's not a particularly original one that the only way to fight this movement is to reintegrate those disenfranchised believers back into the economy; that we're not going to be able to argue with them rationally. And the longer chronic underemployment and unemployment and job insecurity continue; the more the economy unravels; the more these frightening deformities find credibility in a collapsing society. And so we're not going to argue them out of their ideology. But the failure on the part of the Obama administration to deal with the foreclosure and mortgage crisis; to create a serious jobs program; to unburden our college graduates from this debt damage that is destroying their lives; to create universal healthcare - these are the kinds of things that will actually be the best mechanisms to break these fanatic movements. And if we don't do that, then these movements are only going to grow. [WG]: Chris, you want to make a prediction about how this ultimately will play out? Or is the genie out of the bottle now, and even if it all gets sorted out this time, is it only a matter of time before the stakes are even higher and the same tactics are brought to bear once again? [CH]: Well, it's clear that if they don't succeed this time they will try again. But, you know, there's no sign - I'm watching this from a distance - there's no sign that anybody's going to move. They may do something about the debt ceiling, but they paralyzed the government, and they're very happy about it. And at least at this moment, it doesn't look like they intend to concede. [WG]: Chris Hedges is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author. He's reported from over fifty countries, and his books include "American Fascists: the Christian Right and the War On America," and most recently, "Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt." He is a Fellow at the Nation Institute. Chris Hedges, this is really frightening stuff, but it's essential for us to look at it honestly and unflinchingly because the problem, as you just said, is not going away. You do such good work, Chris, and I thank you for it. And I thank you for being with us today on State of Belief Radio. [CH]: Thank you, Welton.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America the most religiously diverse country in the world while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty. Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong wrong for America and bad for religion. Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world. Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana. In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America, while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News, and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets. While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy emerged

as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists. Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from 1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the Christian Life Commission from 1973-77. Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.