'9/11 Law Enforcement Privacy

IN 5 2-Ji
Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here
Date Prepared: April 29,203 DOC Number: 873107
Reviewed by: DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

Record of Interview
Title Interview with Jim Hayes and r
To discuss whether the National Security Unit (in the Bureau of
Purpose
Immigration and Customs Enforcement - BICE) specifically
investigates individuals whose visas were revoked for terrorism
Contact Method In-person interview
\t Place Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department
Qf Homeland Security (formerly INS)
\Contact Date April 29, 2003
Participants BICEJ _| Jim Hayes
Comments/Remarks:
I met withL Jand Jim Hayes tp follow-up on some questions we had concerning the
actions that the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (BICE)'s National Security Unit
investigators takes on visa revocations (On March 1, 2003, INS ceased to exist and was split into
several bureaus under the Department of Homeland Security; the National Security Unit became
part of BICE). \, the end recipient of both the faxed visa revocation certificates and the revocation

\m the State Department is]_ Js Lookout Unit. I asked L Jand Mr. Hayes
I whetherl Jever notified them that certain visas had been revoked. They said that she
| sometimes notifies them about a visa revocation for an individual in TIPOFF but that she does not. *
I typically notify them about most general revocations.

Jsaid that even if his investigators were notified of a revocation, that there is not much
action that National Security Unit can take against the person with the revoked visa unless there
are other charges against the person. He stated several times that there was not much point in
/ having his investigators locate persons with revoked visas who had entered the country because
*
revocation is not grounds for removal. He said that the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA)
should be amended so that revocation is a removable ground. Mr. Hayes agreed that if visa
revocation were grounds for removal this would give the government another tool to fight
terrorism - if there is derogatory information on someone, then BICE could locate the person and
remove him easily.

Pagel Record of Interview

9/11 Law Enforcement Privacy

Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle Index here

Date Prepared: April 29, 203 DOC Number: 873107
Reviewed by: DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

I asked|_ J whether there was any policy in the National Security Unit as to how visa
revocations should be handled, specifically for individuals who had already entered the United
If j States. He said that NSU does not have a policy on this. He pointed out that NSU is an
^investigation unit, white the Lookout Unit (which was part of INS Inspections division and is now
part of the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection - BCBP) handles revocations. Mr. Hayes
said that the Lookout Unit, as part of Inspections division, needs to receive revocation
\s from State because inspectors at the ports of entry are the ones tasked with keeping
ouj aliens who do not have valid visas: In the case that someone enters the United States before
his Visa is revoked, the inspectors need to have notice of the revocation in case the person leaves
$nd Attempts to re-enter. [_ Jstressed that NSU does not have a policy on locating or
investigating visa revocation cases since revocatidns have always been an "inspection function."
H^ said that NSU could investigate individuals to see if they were violating the terms of their
admission, (for example, by overstaying the time they were granted by the inspector to stay in the
} \d States or by taking ajob even though they entered on a student visa), but the law (INA)

\
idoeS not make a visa revocation, in and of itself, illegal for the individuals to stay in the country.

i Itold[ Jand Mr. Hayes that of the 240 visa revocation cases we examined,
\y 27 of these individuals had entered the United States before their visas were
\d and ijhat the Non-Immigration Information System (NIIS) did not have departure dates for
i them. I askedvthem if NSU would have the resources to investigate that many people, f |
I [said that his unit could probably handle that number of investigations but that he did not
know what the p\oint would be to investigate these people when they cannot do anything to remove
them. \g

Currently, the end recipient of both the faxed visa revocation certificates and the cables is the
Lookout Unit. Iasked]_ Jand Mr. Hayes if it would make sense to have State send visa
revocation certificates or cables to NSU as well as to the Lookout Unit, which is in inspections.

Page 2 Record of Interview

9/11 Law Enforcement Privacy

Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here

Date Prepared: April 29,203 DOC Number: 873107
Reviewed by: DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

They said that this might be a good idea. Mr. Hayes also said that it would be helpful if State would
give NSU investigators the derogatory information that explained whyt\\e visa was revoked.

I asked them if NSU ^as ever involved with giving derogatory information on individuals to State
that leads to revocations!] ]said that he has no knowledge of NSU investigators ever
giving State information that leads to revocation. Mr. Hayes said that he did not think that INS
units overseas did intelligence investigations overseas that would lead to revocations.

Condor .7 Investigation
i
i i
Mr. Hayes gave me an update on the investigation that NSU did into the 7 Condor cases (NSU 11
started an investigation of these 7 Condor cases country because of Congressional interest in the\. Mr. Ha

revoked visas who are in the United States). Mr. Hayes said 4 of the 7 have been located and that} i7 "
they are in-status and complying with the terms of their admission. He said that the investigators jl
scrutinized their applications and searched for elements of fraud but found no problem with any of •
them. One individual was identified as having relocated to Canada. Two of the 7 were not located I
and the investigators found no evidence that they were ever here and no evidence that they were ' •
here but left the country. They could find no "public footprints" of these two individuals - no bank
records, postal records, etc. He said that it is possible that they entered and subsequently left the
country and it is also possible that they are here and living under different names. He said that
they have not closed the cases on these two but that they have no further information or leads to!
investigate. "*"Au&fei* f^'U - "& &/? J? ^?-L> ^ ^"cf A -?, . I / . , $ I ,
3
Mr. Hayes told me, as he did in our first interview WICn nlm, that they had received n6 aerogatory
information on the Condor 7 from any source. He said that they checked FBI and CIA databases to
try to find derogatory information on them but found nothing. I asked him if they asked the
Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force for the derogatory information since it was the FTTTF that
originally developed the recommendation that the individuals should not receive visas. He said
that he was not aware of asking the FTTTF for this information or if any of his colleagues had done
9/11 Personal Privacy
Page 3 Record of Interview
Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here
Date Prepared: April 29, 203 DOC Number: 873107
Reviewed by DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code: 320172

so since he was assigned to the investigation after it had already started.

I asked Mr. Hayes if he ever brought the matter of the Condor 7 cases to the attention of Sarah
Kendall in the National Security Law division. He said that there was nothing to bring to her
attention since he would have to have derogatory information on the individuals in order to
warrant showing it to Ms. Kendall or to attempt to seek prosecution of the individuals on terrorism
grounds.

Page 4 Record of Interview