Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here

Date Prepared: December 18, 2002 DOC Number: Type document number here
Reviewed by: DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

Record of Interview
Title Entrance conference: Visas Revoked on Terrorism Concerns
Purpose To present the scope of work, preliminary objectives, and
project timeframes to the State Department
Contact Method In-person conference
Contact Place State Department, Room 7427
Contact Date December 18, 2002
Participants GAO: Jess Ford, John Brummet, Judy McCloskey, Kate Brentzel

State: Harry Porter, GAO liaison; Catherine Brown (legal

advisor, consular affairs); Kevin Saba (RM/CFO); Steve Fischel
(Visa office legal advisor); Mike Chang (legislative management
office); Kathleen Wilson (Attorney Advisor); Marlene Schwartz
(State IG); Eloise Shouse (CA deputy director); Richard Beer
(Chief, Coordination Division, Visa Office); Catherine Barry
(Managing Director, Visa Office); Janet Petronis (consular
officer)

Comments/Remarks:

Mr. Ford opened the conference by giving an outline of the job's scope and objectives. We then
discussed several specific areas of inquiry:

Determining the Number of Visas Revoked on Terrorism Grounds Since September 11. 2001

Ms. McCloskey asked how many visas had been revoked on terrorism grounds since September 11.
Ms. Barry said that although State is required to report to Congress on visas that are denied on
terrorism grounds, it is not required to report on visas that have been prudentially revoked on
terrorism grounds. Mr. Beer said the Visa Office does not have one central file that holds all visa
revocation certificates since each certificate is retained with the individual visa applicant's file.
However, he said that he would be able to collect revocation records from a variety of sources and
therefore estimate the entire universe of revoked visas since 9-11. He said that the total number is
small.

Ms. Barry and Mr. Beer said that the universe of revoked visas should include three groups:

• Visas revoked as a result of Condor cable information

• Visas revoked as a result of new TIPOFF information (State has instituted a new procedure
since September 11: any time new information is entered into TIPOFF, State checks to see
if visas had already been issued to these individuals and then revokes them prudentially).

ge 1 Record of Interview
 ! by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here
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viewed by: DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

• Visas revoked as a result of VGTOF hits (names from FBI's Violent Gang and Terrorist
Organization File were added to CLASS in summer 2002; as some of these individuals had
already been issued visas, State then prudentially revoked their visas).

Visa Revocation Process

\\r;6
For visas revoked prudentially by the Department (as opposed to those revoked in the field by'"Nt offic

After State receives a request from another agency (eg FBI, FTTTF) to revoke the visa:
1. The Department prepares a revocation certificate. The Deputy Assistant Secretary for Visa
Services signs the certificate and the revocation legally goes into effect once it is signed,
even if the visa is never physically cancelled. -~\. Th

enter the revocation into IBIS.

3. The Department enters the revocation information into CLASS (a new visa revocation code
for CLASS went into effect on August 12, 2002. See below, "Follow-up Questions" for a
question on this new code). CLASS entries are made so that consular officers at all overseas
posts will be able to see that the person is a suspected terrorist and that he requires a
security advisory opinion from Washington before he can be issued another visa.
4. A cable is sent from the Department to the post that issued the visa. The cable includes all
the information that is included on the revocation certificate, including the date of the
revocation.

Usually, the post will attempt to locate the individual whose visa was revoked to notify him to
return to post so that his visa can be physically cancelled. We asked Ms. Barry if she knew if any~6f
the Condor 105 had been contacted when their visas were revoked. She said that she did not know
if this occurred or not.

Role of FTTTF. FBI

We asked if the Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force (FTTTF) or the FBI were following up on
any of the individuals whose visas had been revoked, particularly the Condor 105. Mr. Beer said
that he thinks that the FTTTF might be working on this although no one from the task force has
contacted him or Catherine Barry directly. Ms. Barry said that the State liaison at the task force,
Margaret Cooperman, might be knowledgeable on this. Ms. Brown reminded us that not all of the
Condor 105 were suspected terrorists — some were individuals about whom the task force needed
more information in order to determine the applicant's true identity. Ms. Brown theorized that the
FTTTF may not have any derogatory information on many of the Condor 105 and is therefore not
following up on the matter, especially since the task force has since come back to State and said
that 60 of the 105 had checked out okay.

Current Status of Condors

Page 2 Record of Interview

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Job Code:320172

Ms. Barry explained that the FBI has automated the Condor security checks and that in "no hit"
cases (applicants for whom FBI has derogatory information), State is getting results in about a
week. However, for cases in which there is a name hit, the FBI has been slow to report back to
State. In these cases, FBI will recommend that State not issue a visa to these individuals while
various FBI units attempt to fully develop information on the applicant. Mr. Beer said that there
are at least 3000 visa applicants whose applications are on indefinite hold and that the number
might be as large as 4000 or 5000. Ms. Barry said that for these cases, the FBI Condor process is
very unsatisfactory to State. She said that other security advisory cables (e.g. Donkeys, Bears) are
handled efficiently; she assumes that there are glitches in the Condor system that have yet to be
ironed out.

Department of Homeland Security

Mr. Ford asked how the new Department of Homeland Security (DHS) would affect visa
operations. Ms. Brown said she thinks that the ultimate decision for issuing a visa would transfer
from the Attorney General to the Secretary of Homeland Security. She questions whether FBI will
accept decisions made by the Secretary of HS. Ms. Barry said that it might depend on how
thorough HS's internal intelligence capacity is and if FBI can therefore be bypassed. She said that
State is still having problems with getting information from the FBI; the FBI still has yet to fully
cooperate with feeding information into State's TIPOFF database.

Contacts for Visa Revocation Work

Ms. Barry said that she would like Hale Van Koughnett, Visa Office Special Assistant, to be the
primary coordinator for our request (ph: 663-1152). She said that he would work with Janet
Petronis to get the necessary data and Richard Beer to get the necessary files and cables.

Follow-up questions for State

• What prompted the new visa revocation code for CLASS in August 2002? Previously, was it
possible for consular officers in the field to see that an individual had had a visa revoked?

• Technically a revocation does not go into effect for an individual who is already traveled to
the US before his visa was revoked (if he leaves the US, however, and attempts to re-enter,
he would find that his visa had been revoked). Before State prudentially revoked the visas
of the Condor 105, did it ascertain whether or not these individuals were already in the US?

Page3 Record of Interview

 ATTENU ._<CE SHEET
Visas Revoked Based on Terrorism Concerns
GAO Job Code #320172 Date 12/18/02 Time 11:00 AM Room 7427

Entrance [ | Status Briefing Q Exit

Name Org ROora No. Title Telephone Fax E-Mail Address

Harry Porter State/RM 7427, MS GAO Liaison (202)647-8170 (202)647-8194 Porterhh@state.gov

Michelle Carter State/RM 7427, MS Assistant Transition Coordinator (202) 647-7656 (202)647-8194 Huiem@state.gov

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