[MUSIC] Hello, I'm Professor Tony Townsend, and I'm supporting Dr.

George Oduro and Professor John MacBeath in presenting the materials for course three. During course two, we had a series of discussions that highlighted some of the issues that arose during the conduct of that program. This time, we intend to do the same thing again. So, at the end of week two we are discussing some issues that are associated with the first two weeks of course three. The first question to our presenters is this one: why is it important for teachers to know as much as they can about the background of their students? >> It is very important that teachers know more about their students, because the whole business of teaching and learning starts with a relationship. And it is part of the relationship that you need to know the nature of the stude nts. You need to know the emotions with which the student comes to the classroom. You need to know the cultural background so that you will be in a better position to establish a condition to promote learning in the classroom. >> I could hardly disagree with that, George, could I? But, I mean, that I think if you were to say to some teachers in Ghana or anywhere else for that matter, I think, even in England, if you were to say to a teacher "Now, you've got to really think about the individual student and the background where they come from". What's a teacher going to say to you? >> Obviously, talking about Ghana, most teachers will think about the subject and think about the examination. So, they get to the classroom thinking, "Well, my responsibility is to prepare this student to pass exams. Once that is done, I've done my job." But a concerned teacher who starts with a note of relationship will be concerned about the individual and their life, because his orientation is beyond examinations. >> It raises the whole question of - because it's not just about Ghana, is it? You could say the same of a teacher almost anywhere in the world, well,

before the globalization impact and pressure of things, it's about exams. It's about getting, you know, my accountability as the teacher is to get these young people through exams. And I got parent pressure on my back and this government policy and all the rest of it. So, those kinds of issues are worldwide, they're absolutely prevalent. But where do you start in your work, in some very difficult contexts, where do you start with saying to teachers, how do you move away from that paradigm if you like, to being more concerned with what we might call a pupil centered, or a learner centered approach. >> Yeah, I think it just starts with dialogue. And I can make reference to a program that was introduced, this leadership for learning program. Schools that participated in that program, I can say with joy, have moved from that perspective of not bothering yourself about knowing the learner to a perspective of knowing the learner. And we have seen changes in learner attitudes, and teacher attitudes. So, it should all start with conversation, dialogue. >> Sure, dialogue. So, you have to you know the thing we've talked about before, the Greek notion "dialogus", meaning flowing through it, so the dialogue isn't just discussion is it? It's attempting to put yourself into the other person's shoes and their frame of reference and begin to understand. And that's very challenging in lots of different contexts, and maybe particularly challenging when teachers are very overworked and under pressure. And we've seen that in Ghana obviously, and we've seen that in lots of other places where you have such a kind of oppressive policy, pushing, pushing, pushing. But when you mentioned leadership for learning, George, it's interesting that in Ghana, the ministry itself has started to move in that direction. >> Oh, yes. The ministry has started... the Ghana Teaching Service has even now come out with a

module that is projecting the six principles underlying leadership for learning with emphasis on dialogue. And it's been accepted by the ministry that the school would be meaningless, unless what teachers do, what head teachers do and what directors do are linked to learning in the classroom. And that focus on learning makes it necessary for teachers to know the learner. >> The second question is that we are working with people from all over the world, so how important is context? Is it true that children will learn in the same way no matter where in the world they are? >> For me, I think, all learners I've seen in any context is the fact that all learners have the capacity to learn. There's no one who is a student and doesn't have the capacity to learn. The only difference comes in when we look at the pace of learning. The conditions that promote learning. And so contextually, I would say that there are differences between how children learn within different geographical contexts, because so many things go into the process of learning. >> And it is the kind of preconceptions, or expectations, they bring to that. I remember a student saying in Ghana, "Master, if you do not punish us, we will not learn". So, there's that notion, right from the beginning, isn't there? This condition to think of how his learning comes about. Learning is a product of teaching. >> Yeah, that is the notion. "If you don't punish us..." Whereas some parents will even send their children to school to be punished so they can learn. So, it is a context how people see the process. >> And in places where corporal punishment has been abolished maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago, people come to that and say, "What you actually... you hit children?" Thinking of my own experience as a teacher, in Scotland it was absolutely endemic in the

classroom. That's what you did. Everyone was equipped with a belt and when you started teaching, the first thing you did was you bought a belt. And changing that context and that culture took a long time. But then, when you look back on it now, you think, well how could it ever have been that we felt that was the way to relate. >> Yeah. Well, in Ghana, the ministry has banned corporal punishment in school. I can recount my own experience: I developed hatred and dislike for mathematics and music - of course all subjects that start with m, I dislike them. [LAUGH] - just because I could hardly dissociate the learning of mathematics and music from caning. And that's put me off. Now, people have come to the realisation that corporal punishment does not promote learning. And so gradually... but it is not easy, though, in some schools they do it undercover. >> That's really-- your experience there is so interesting, anything beginning with m, George, because I had that exactly that experience. Here you, as a kid growing up in Ghana. Here's me as a child growing up in Scotland, and yet, an identical experience of, I was taught Latin by the rector, who would belt you for any mistake in Latin. I got 100 percent in Latin through fear, but the first thing I did was to drop Latin completely, because I hated it, the way you hate the M's. And when I wanted to go to university to study modern languages, they said well, you need to have Latin as well. And I couldn't go back, because I had such a block to the notion of Latin. So, I taught myself Greek, because that was an acceptable option. >> Okay. Yeah, so corporal punishment I think doesn't promote learning. People don't learn under fear. >> And indeed inhibits, as in your case and in my case, it actually inhibits learning. >> You talked a lot about school rules.

How important is it that parents, teachers, and students are actively involved in the development of school rules? >> In the Ghanaian cultural context, and for that matter, in most African context, where there's the notion that power and wisdom dwell in the elderly. So, it is the elderly who determine what is good or bad for the young. And because of this, the school system, until recently, operated on a system of management coming up with rules for pupils to comply with. And hardly would one expect pupils to get engaged in the process of rule making. But what we have found now based on some research, and of course I'll keep making references to the leadership for learning, when teachers engage pupils in formulating rules, pupils are more able to comply with the rules. That's saving teachers from spending their time, their teaching time, in enforcing discipline in schools. And so the processes for being engaging is very good in creating conditions for both teachers and the learners. >> It's interesting, you know, now we talk about, it seems so common sense that children, young people, should be involved in formulating rules, having a say in the classroom. And I think back to, for example, the first time I went to Hong Kong and talked about this issue, I was almost stoned for being such a heritic. You know, how ridiculous that you think that young people have anything to contribute. That was Hong Kong. But then I was in England at a Tory Party conference many, many years ago in which I talked about young people being involved, and the Education Minister got up and he talked about the utter rubbish that this person MacBeath was talking about. Because what do kids know? What do children know? They can't think. They simply do what they are told, don't they?

They don't have any voice. So, you had two fairly different contexts, you know, there's Hong Kong, there is Ghana, here's, in this case, England, and the same kind of assumptions, the same kind of rhetoric about the incapacity of children to have anything useful to say. But when you let go, as you said in one of the lectures, letting go and trusting young people, then we really get that reward of young people being able to surprise us all the time by their insight and their intuition. >> Let me see. I think that even looking at the terminology, "young people", I think it, in Ghana, and I'll say that for most African countries too, that once the label "student" is put on you, irrespective of your age, it is assumed that you must obey. So, even in some universities, some universities, student representative councils are there, they are found all right. But as to whether they participate in the process of decision making is another thing. They represent the students, but they do not participate in that. I agree with you that it is difficult, that's the notion everywhere, but I think that things must change now. In one of the schools in Cape Coast in Ghana, the headteacher in a primary school told us something very interesting's occurring, and of course they had to tell us when they were involved in the leadership for learning program. She has a day where teachers and pupils and parents meet together. And pupils talk about what they want changed in the school and that forms the basis for the coming up of some rules. In one of the schools, in Cape Coast, in Ghana, the head teacher, who of course happens to be a member of the leadership for learning team, has created a practice where, occasionally, teachers, pupils, and parents are brought together, to think about the school. And it's surprising some of the things that children are able to

come up with which form the basis of certain rules that are made in the school. >> Yeah, one of the things that's really interesting about that, George, is that the process of change, the process of cultural change, when one school, or a few schools, or maybe a dozen schools, are beginning to do things. Then other schools say, you know, it's not impossible to do this. So, it comes about because there are those brave people who step out, and they do something different. And then you have a kind of cultural change following that, and we've seen that in a lot of countries, and certainly I think that's been one of the keys to the success in Ghana of creating a whole different culture, because there were head teachers and teachers who said yes, we can do something different. >> We can do something, yeah. Yeah, that works. >> Finally, what do you think is the most important message to come out of the first two weeks of this course? >> Yeah, the message is that it is important for the teacher to know and understand the learner that he or she teaches. Then, he or she must also understand and appreciate the fact that no two learners are the same. Therefore, it is important that lessons are designed in such a way that they meet the interest of the different type of learners in the classroom. >> Mm-hm. And I think it's not just about the individual learner, and the fact that they learn, that children learn in different ways. But it's also about the context that good teachers create to allow that to happen. Because you can pay lip service to that all you like, but unless you create context in which that is allowed to flourish. And I think the examples that you have in Ghana, where you have begun, in very very challenging psychical circumstances, where

the classrooms aren't well equipped necessarily, right? [LAUGH] >> And very large too. >> And very very large, but you create a different kind of relationship, a different culture in the classroom, whether it's a classroom that's held outside, or in a very cramped space, or whatever it is, you have a different kind of relationship, a different kind of ethos, a different kind culture. >> In some schools though. >> Yes, and again, it's this process of gradually the change comes about because of the leading edge schools, and gradually you get what you call the early adopters, and then eventually the late adopters, and there will always be the resistors, and those who aren't going to comply. But gradually, it's a ripple that goes right through the system, with the endorsement, as in the case of Ghana, from the diplomacy makers. [MUSIC]