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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

F O R T H E N O R T H E R ND I S T R ] C T O F C A L ] F O R N I A

RUSSELL ALLEN NORDYKE and


SALLIE ANN NORDYKE, dba TS
TRADE SHOI/üS,JESS B. GUY,
DUANE N. DAVIS, TASTANA CaseNo.: C 99 04389
VüERTYSCHYN,JEAN LEE, TODD MJJ
BALTES, DENNIS BLAIR, R.L.
(Bob) ADAMS, ROGER BAKER,
MIKE FOURNIER and VIRGIL
McVICKER, Ç f fR
i T ¡F I H Þ
Plaintiffs,

\7q ffiffipY
MARY V. KING, GATL STEH,E,
W]LMA CHAN, KEITH CARSON,
SCOTT HAGGERTY, the COUNTY
OF ALAMEDA, and the COUNTY
OF ALAMEDA BOARD OF
SUPERVISORS,

t*,
Defendants.
¿**

DEPOSIT]ON OF

IGNAT]US H. CHTNN

sacramento, catlrornia

Friday, March 17, 2006

Reported by:
Laurie D. Lerda, CSR
CSR No. 3649
Job No. 680B98

-f:, &

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ffiffiFV 800.770.3363
1 Deposition of IGNATIUS H. CHINN, taken on

2 behalf of the Pl-aintiffs at Esquire Depositi-on

3 Services, 1801 I Street, First Floor, Sacramento,

4 California, beginning at 1-0:39 a.m. and ending at

à 11:08 â.fl., on Friday, March Il, 2006 before

Laurie D. Lerda, Certified Shorthand Reporter No.

7 3649.

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1 APPEARANCES

3 For Plaíntiff:

4 LAVüOFFICES OF DONALDKILMER

5 B Y : D O N A L DE . J . K I L M E R , J R . , ESQ.

6 L26L Lincoln Avenue, Suite l-11

1 San Jose, California 95125-3030

B (408) 998-8489

10
For the Defendant:
11
o F F r c E o F T H E C O U N T Y C O U N S E L , C O U N T YO F
1,2 ALAMEDA

13 BY: RAYMONDL. MacKAY, Deputy County

I¿T Counsel

15 1"221 Oak Street, Suite 450

t6 Oakland, California 9461,2

L1 (sl-0) 272-6134

1B

19 For the Deponent Ignatius H. Chinn:

20 State of Cal-ifornia, Department of Justice

2t BY: AL]SON Y. MERRILEES,

22 Deputy Attorney Generaf

¿5 P. O. Box 1"60481

24 Sacramento, Cal-ifornia 95816-0481

25 (916) 263-0802

EsquireDepositionServices
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.L INDEX OF EXAM]NAT]ON

6 EXAM]NAT]ON BY

9 MR. KTLMER .....5, 25

10 Mr. McKAY ......24

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1_3 --oOo--

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I6 rNDEX OF EXH]BITS

1"7

l_B PAGE

L9 DEPOS]TION

20

2L EX A ORDINANCE NO.

22

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24

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EsquireDepositionServrces
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1 BE IT R E M E M B E R E D ,t h a t on Friday, March L7, 2006|

Z commencing at the hour of 10:39 a.m. thereof, at the

3 offices of 1801 I Street, First Floor, Sacramento,

4 Calj-fornía, before me, LAURIE D. LERDA, a Certified

5 Shorthand Reporter in and for the County of

6 Sacramento, State of California, there personally

appeared

B ]GNAT]US H. CH]NN,

9 call-ed as a witness herein, who, having been first

10 duly sh/orn, was thereupon examined and interrogated

1 1 as hereinafter set forth.

1"2 --oOo--
'1
? (Exhibit A was marked )

1,4 EXAMINATTOB
NY M R . K I L M E R , E S Q . :

15 O. Would you please identify yourself for the

1,6 record

7l A. Ignatius Chinn, I-g-n-a-t-i-u-s, capital-

1B C-h-i-n-n.

19 MR. MacKAY: Counsel, before we begin/ can

20 we get the same stipulation that al-I objections

2I includinq objections as to form are reserved.

22 MR. KILMER: Y e s r v t r êc a n .

23 MR. MacKAY: Thank vou.

z4 MR. KILMER: A1l- ¡ì nr-rf- rr.¡i a ì 5 deposition

25 of Ignatius Chinn pursuant to a Notice of Deposition

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1 issued by the plaintiffs.

Z I am Pl-aíntif f 's counsel- Donal-d Kil-mer

3 representing Russel-l- AIf en Nordyke in Nordyke vs.

4 King pending in the United States District Court for

5 the Northern District of Cal-ifornia.

6 And present also.

MR. MacKAY: Raymond McKay, Deputy County

B Counsel-, Alameda County Counsel's office.

9 Thank you, sj-r.

t_0 MS. MERRILEES: And A]lison Merrilees,

1_1_ Deputy Attorney General, counsel- for the Firearms

I2 Division at the Cal-ifornia Department of Justice.

1-3 0. BY MR. KILMER: Mr. Chinn, can we refer to

I4 yoür should we refer to you as Mr. Chinn or can we

1-5 use your first name?

I6 A. Sure, that's fine.

71 O. Vühich?

1_B A. Ignatius.

1"9 O. Thank yoür Ignatius.

20 Can you please state for the record your

2t present employer?

22 A. The Cal-ifornia Department of Justice.

23 O. And how long have you been employed there?

24 A. A littl-e over f ifteen and a half vears.

25 A. Who did Vou work with before that?

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-L A. Oakl-and Police Department.

z O. How long did you work for them?

3 A. Twenty years five months three days.

4 O. lühat were vour duti-es with the Oakland


q
PoIice Department?

6 A. I was a patrolman in patrol_ in Special

7 Operations for eleven years and on I-L1-82 I was

I promoted to serqeant and I was assiqned to CID,

9 Criminal- Investigation Division where I worked

10 approximately for nine and a half years as an

11 investigator in burglâry, und.ercover theft recovery,

1,2 narcotics, auto theft, robbery.

l_J f was one of the foundinq detectives who

I4 started the gang unit and then I retired.

15 O. All right. And then you subsequently went

16 to work for the California Department of Justice?

t7 A. Correct. And for nine and a hal_f vears I

1B hlas assigned to the San Francisco office for the

19 Cal-ifornia Bureau of Investigation working organized,

20 Asian organized crime and gangs.

2L A. Okay. And what is your education?

22 A. I went through high school- at Oakland High.

23 I graduated in '67 . And for many years I attended

24 Cal- State Hayward whÍl-e working for the police

25 department and I'm still in the search of a degree.

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1 a. All right Do you have any qnani¡l nn'li¡a

.l-r¡'ininn?
2

3 Ä I have been trained in narcotic

4 identifícation, intoxication and packaging and sales

6 operations in criminal areas.

6 I've a l s o w o r k e d f r o m 1 , 9 1 4t o I g B l a s a

7 first in sales and then in repairs for a gun store in

B Oakland, California.

9 During that time I attended numerous

10 seminars given by Colt, Smith & V{esson, the

11 United StaLes Army, Federal_ Bureau of Investigration,

1,2 Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms on firearms

13 nomencl-ature and operation.

1,4 Are you POST certified?

15 A Yes. I have a supervisor POST certi_ficate.

76 ^ Okay. And who is your immediate supervisor

I1 in the Cal-ifornia Department of Justi_ce?

1B A. My Ímmediate supervj_sor ís special agent in

19 charge Carlos Sol-ano.

20 All right. And who does he report to?

2L He reports direct.ly to Deputy Director

22 Dal-e Furato.

¿J O. And then who does he report to?

24 A He reports directly to Director Randy Rossi.

25 ô AII right. Thank you. And if I didn't ask

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1 you earlier, what is your titl-e now?

¿ A. Special Agent Supervísor.

3 O. Al-1 right. Vühat are your responsibil-ities?

4 A. My initial responsibility was to supply the

Firearms Division with firearms expertise and

6 nomencl-ature and operations.

My secondary responsibilities are to

ö supervise a crew of nine special agents which have

9 investigative responsibil-ities from North Kern County

t-0 to Oregon which approximately is 47 counties.

1,1, I also have a civili-an property control-fer

1,2 under my supervision who controls our firearms

1_3 property vault in Sacramento which is for the whole

1 A
f = Northern California area.

15 O. Vühen you supervise these agents, what kind

L6 of work do they do?

L7 A. Vüell, sj-nce June of 2002 we've been doing

1B what we call- Senate Bill 950 cases which are

L9 Prohibited Possession Firearms cases and from our

20 program over 4949 Broadwayr âDy denials that come

2L through there are referenced through CI & I for the

22 denial- background and then t-hor¡rro rcfarq¡sed to the

¿5 automatic firearms system to see how many firearms

24 are in that personrs name who is prohibited and why

25 they haven't been equated in the system with no

EsquireDepositionServices
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1 longer possession forms or in the system as evidence

2 or for destruction. So, those cases are given to us

and then we make contact with the people to find out

4 where those guns are.

5 We al-so do undercover purchase cases from

o criminal organizations which we've done from the

7 Vaqos Motorcycle Gang and the Norteno gang members

B down in the central val-lev.

9 And we've done machine qun cases that occur

10 that when they come to us from people that want to

11 sell- them to us, and we have responsibility for gun

1,2 show compliance within the 41 counties north of Kern.

t_J 0. Yourre a busy guy.

74 A. Very.

15 O. So you're famil-iar with the provisj-ons of


1 a
J_O the Gun Show Enforcement Act of 20OO otherwise known

L1 as Penal Code Section 1,2011,.4?

1B A. And one.

79 O. And one. Thank you for correcting me.

20 What r rm ê^Fr' Have you ever testified

2L as an expert before?

22 A. Yes.

¿J O. Okay. In what areas of expertise?

24 A. fn assault weapons nomencl_ature and

25 operation and machine gun nomencl-ature and operation

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1 and prohibit.ed possession nomencfature and operation.

¿ A. Anything else relating to firearms?

3 A. No.

4 O. What is a good working definition of a gun

5 show?

6 A. It I s an expositÍon by numerous vendors

7 showing of firearms and accessories and ammunition.

B O. Okay. VÍhat are some of the venues for these

9 shows ?

10 A. You mean locations where they happen?

1l_ O. Yeah.

I2 A. State agricultural show places, county

13 fairgrounds, hotel-s, convention centers and so on and

1 A
f = so forth.

i_5 O. Okay. Are you familiar with the shows that

L6 Russ and Sal-l-ie Nordyke put on?

71 A. Yes.

1_B 0. Okay. And where are some of the places they

1,9 have their shows?

¿U A. The only show that I've ever done compliance

2T surveill-ances at is, at the Santa C1ara County

22 Fairgrounds.

¿5 O. Okay. Are you ar^iare that there were shows

¿¿+ that used to take place at the Alameda County

25 Fairgrounds ?

EsquireDepositionServices
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1 A Yes. I rm sorry, T rr qarl lu- vn nn
Y v
J.lrora
,
{e- vnvn.

2 ô So you did some Iaw enforcement work there

3 aS I^¡el-l-?

4 A Yo<

5 0. To your knowJ-edge do the Nordykes compl-y

6 with all- federal and state laws while putting on

their gun shows?

B Ä Vaq

9 O. Are they cooperative with law enforcement

IU üIhen they try and engage j_n law enforcement

11 activities at their shows?

L2 A. üIhenffindaviofation I have gone to

1_3 Sallie and tol-d her about it and she rectifies it

T4 ímmediately.

t-5 a. Can you give any examples, âDy specific

T6 e x a m p Ì e s o f h o w the Nordykes have helped you make

1"1 sure people are in compliance with the California

1B firearm laws?

L9 A Yeah. Thev have notified me that there

ZU might be a problem with one vendor. Theyrll ask me

2T to go over and take a look.

22 And on one occasion it was an Oregon vendor

¿ J who had brought switchbl-ades in and we o n o n e case

24 this vendor actually, two separate incidents.

25 The first vendor was asked to nrrl-


.Y*"
fha q.|-rrff

EsquireDepositionServices
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1 aüray and never bring it back and he complíed and

2 then in another show this person actually had

blackjack saps and everything else there and under

4 1-2020 those are a violatíon and we justr we ceased

tr person. was,
them all- and we cited the So, and that

6 you know, under their information that something was

going wrong at that l-ocation.

B O. And that was brought to your attention by

9 the Nordykes?

1_0 A. Right.

1_1 A. Have you ever attended any gun shows outside

L2 of the State of Cal-ifornia?

1_3 A. Yes.

1 t l
a t O. Can you give me can you tel-l- me about

15 those?

1_6 A. The last two vears we've conducted

L1 surveillances of the gun shows that occur in Reno,

1B Nevada at the exhibition buil-dino and at the Hilton

1,9 Hotel.

20 O. Okay. And why are you t.here?

2L A. W eI r e avrare that numerous ill-eqal

22 transactions occur there from Nevada residents to

ZJ Cal-ifornians and they bring the guns back or

z.+ accessories like high capacity maqazines back into

za the state il1egal1y.

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1
I
A. Vfhat are the differences, some of the

z differences between a gun show in say Nevada or a gun

3 show in California?

4 A. Vüe1l-, under 1 , 2 0 1 1 " . 1 ,a n d f o u r al-l- firearms

5 transactions has to comply with state and federal-

6 laws.

1 And we have in this state a section cal-l-ed

B 12072 small- f'dfr which mandates that if neither party

9 in a transacti-on is li-censed, they have to complete

1-0 the transaction with a licensed deal-er.

1_1 fn Nevada therers no such thinq. ff a

L2 Nevada resident identifies himself to a vendor whose

13 not licensed whose selling guns on the table as a

1 A Nevada resident, those two Nevada residents can

15 conduct a transaction without doing any backqround or

T6 anything and then that person walks with the gun.

I1 And September of last year we identified a

1B young Asian mal-e doing this at al-most 10 tables

1_9 buying hand guns and assault weapons and we later

20 l-earned after stopping him at Truckee that the Nevada

2I l-icense was fraudul-ently obtained and that he was a

22 California gang member and he is currentl.' ' i n 1 -r ì ¡ l

z5 in El Dorado county on our charges now.

¿¿r O. Are you aürare of any other incidents of

25 California residents attempting to evade California

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1 law by going to a Nevada gun show?

z A. Yes.

3 O. Can you please give me some examples of

4 those?

tr
A. On two separate occasions from the

6 exhibition show we followed Cal-ifornia residents

purchasing assault weapons and high capacity

B magazines back into the state and on the two assault

9 weapons cases the suspects have pled guilty.

1_0 On the high capacity magazine cases the

11_ suspects have been -- have pled guilty to felony

L2 counts of I2020A.2. Just about every show we go to

13 hre come back with and we do detain someone who has

1
r =A purchased firearms or high capacity magazínes

i-5 iJ-Iegally. The l-ast show we went to--

L6 rì I'm going to interrupt. V Í h e ny o u s a y s h o w s

T1 in this context, you'.re talking about the shows in

1B Reno, Nevada?

19 A. , Yes, sir. Irm sorry.

20 The last show we went to we were our

Z L surveil-l-ance h/as identified bv the suspect and we

22 l-ater visited him in his Grass Val-l-ev home and he

¿5 surrendered to us three assaul-t hreapons that he

¿ 1 purchased at the Reno show.

25 So, every show hre've gone to, \nrerve been

EsquireDepositionServices
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1 abl-e to watch an illegal activity occur in the

¿ parking Iot or in the show itself and we have no

3 authority in the state so.

4 O. In the state of Nevada?

5 A. Nevada. So we have made an aqreement with

6 the Reno PD that we would be there, but we woufd not

1 take any action until we were able to come back into

B Cal-ifornia.

9 Okay. And needless to say people setting

10 high capacity magazines and assault weapon on their

1-1 tabl-e at a California gun show, there's not even

L2 going to be a transaction, is there?

J-J A. No.

L4 O. If you fearn of it?

1_5 A Yes. And werve seen some and wetve acted on

L6 them and those people have been arrested.

T1 O. And the Cal-ifornia qun show promoters are

1_B helping you in complying or enforcing those laws,

19 aren't they?

20 A. Yes sir. Yes, they are.

2L 0. Irm going to ask you to take a look at in

22 front of you what's been marked as Exhibit A. And

23 I'm just going to identify it as the Alameda

z¿t ordinance thatr. fha c,rl-rianl of the litigation here

25 and ask vou to take a chance to read it and l-et me

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1 know when youtre done.

z A. Okay.

MR. KILMER: Let's qo off the record for a

second.

5 (Off the record discussion).

6 a. BY MR. KILMER: Back on the record.

frd like to draw your attention to

B subsection D which is the ordinance's definition of

9 firearm and ask you to compare that to California law

1-0 and can you te1I me is the definition of firearm

l_1 under the Alameda ordinance broader than the

T2 California definition?

1_3 MS. MERRILEES: Mr. Kilmer, is it okay if I

L4 have a lorief conversation with Mr. Chinn?

MR. KILMER: Off the record. Excuse me¡ oD

76 the record, yes. Off the record.

1"1 (Off-the-Record discussion) .

1B O. BY MR. KILMER: Back on the record.

T9 I asked you to compare the definition of

ZU firearm in the Al-ameda ordi-nance to the definition of

2T the firearm in Cal-ifornia state law.

22 A. Kl_Ont.

ZJ 0. Do you have any ansbrer for me?

24 A. It appears that in some areas it is broader

25 and in some areas ít is narrower.

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1 A. Okay. For example, the Al-ameda ordinance

Z would cfassify as a firearm a revol-utj-onary hiar era

3 musket, flintlock musket; correct?

4 A. Correct.

q
Irm goi-ng to ask you to take a look at

6 Subsecti-on F Subsection four. This is the part of

7 the ordinance that deals with exceptions to the

B possessj-on of firearms on county property and

9 specificalJ-y authorizes participants in motion

l_0 picture television video and dance and theatrical

11 productions to possess firearms as part of a

L2 production or event.

13 Do part of your duties in your work for the

L4 Department of Justice include regulation of firearms

15 connected with entertainment?

1_6 A. Yes.

I1 O. Okay. Can you teIl me what some of that

1B entaí I s ?

1_9 A. We're tasked with doing the background

20 checks on permittees and prop houses that have

ZI federal- firearms licenses and permits to possess

22 destructive devices within this state.

23 0. Okay. So is the regulatory scheme for

z4 regulating the entertainment industry and the firearm

25 use in entertaínment industrv at l-east simil-ar to the

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1
regulatory scheme for regulating gun shows?

¿ ft's actuallv more stricter.

J 0. Vrlhich one is stricter?

4 A. The motion picture i-ndustry.

5 0. Okay. Is that because they handle

6 explosives and machine guns?

A. Yes, sir.

B A. Okay. Vühich are not normally for safe to

9 the general public at a gun show anyhray, are they?

10 A. Not in this state¡ flo.

11 0. Do you have any hobbies relating to the

1,2 firearms?

1-3 A. Yes.

t4 0. Okay. What are they?

15 n this
f at one time shot competitivelv and at

1,6 time I have a smal-l col-lection.

L7 O. Do you ever attend gun shows for personaf

1B reasons and not on the cl-ock?

1,9 A Lately, ror but I have in the past.

20 O. AII right. V[ould you ever attend a gun show

2L that didn't have guns present?

22 A. No.

23 O. Vühy not?

24 I rm not, number one, not interested in

25 antisue furniture or dol-ls and that I s normal-l-v what

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1 has taken the pl-ace of the quns at these shows.

2 O. So wíthout guns actually present at a gun

J show, you have no interest in going?

4 A. No.

q
O. And that would be a statement not as a law

6 enforcement officer, but as somebody who is also a

1 col-Iector and hobbvist?

B A. Yes.

9 0. Yourve actually conducted investigations and

10 made arrests based on conduct y o r . tt v e o b s e r v e d at a

l1 Nordyke gun show, haven't you?

L2 A. YeS.

IJ 0. Okay. Can you tell me a little about that

L4 case without compromising the case?

15 A. IbelieveIcan.

a -
IO O. Okay. Pl-ease do.

L1 A. Back in 1998 f discovered a person out of

1B Napa, Cal-ifornia who was sending machine 9uD, machine

1_9 guns in the mail- to other gun dealers.

20 At the tÍme that I discovered that, I served

21 a search warrant on the location and discovered more

22 machj-ne guns and other items that vrere illegal.

z5 O. Uh-huh.

z4 A During that time we Ì^iere prosecuting the

25 main deal-er which wasn't the person identified as

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L selling the machine guns, and there was a time that

¿ actually spanned a period of about nj-ne months where

3 we hrere prosecuting the first dealer and no

4 prosecution occurred on that person in Napa.

5 During that time we learned from ATF that

6 that person hras selling more machine guns out of his

house in Napa.

B 0. For the record ATF is?

9 A. Bureau of A]cohol- Tobacco and Firearms.

10 O. Thatrs the federal- agency or the federal-

11 counterpart to the work that you do?

L2 A. Yes. So, to develop more probable cause, I

1_3 sent undercovers into the Nordyke gun shows to


-J"4
purchase more machine gun parts from this person

15 which they accomplished.

16 O. okay.

I7 A. And that assisted me in refreshÍng my

1B probable cause for another search warrant for the

L9 house in Napa which occurred and we found more

20 machine guns, sawed-off shotgunsr so on and so forth

2L at this location.

22 A. Okay. But just so we're clear, the

23 sawed-off shotguns and futly assembl-ed machine guns

24 were not at the Nordyke gun shows?

¿a A. No. Just the parts.

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1 n Just the parts Okav. What do some of

2 these parts fook like?

3 A Actually, they are parts of a unit called

4 the M2 Conversion Unít. It is a seven piece unit

5 that is identified bv the federal- government and the

6 State of Cal-ifornia as in itself being a machine gun

and it converts M1 carbine into a fully automatic M2

I carbine and some of the parts we bought from this

9 suspect were the disconnect, the plunger, several

10 other, the levers.

11 0. Okay.

t2 A And we a c t u a l l y -- actually, when he didn't

-LJ have the part at the show, we paid him for the part

L.+ at the show and h e s e n t the part to my undercover.

15 O. Okay. Vüould you have been abl-e to conduct

76 this investigatj-on or this undercover work were it

t7 not for the gun show?

1B A It woul-d have been more difficult, yes.

I9 a. Okay. fs there anything that Russ and

ZU Sal-Iie Nordyke dld that was ilJ-egal in connection

2t with allowing this vendor to operate?

22 I mean they weren't charged with knowledge

¿5 of him selling these machine gun parts, r^rere they?

24 MR. MacKAY: Compound.

25 Coul-d you break it down.

EsquireDepositionServrces
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1 You started with one question and you went

2 off to another.

f
0. BY MR. KILMER: I did do that.

4 As part of your investigation of that crime

Ã. regarding the machine gun parts, the Nordykes h/ere

6 not implicated in that, were they?

A. No.

B O. Did you -- now these parts that you talk

9 about you call a disconnect and a spring

l_0 MR. MacKAY: And a plunger.

11 O. BY MR. KILMER: -- and a plunger, very good,

LZ what woul-d they look fike to the average person who

13 is not as knowledgeable as you?

I4 A. Smal-l- mechanical parts.

15 O. So there's no way to know without having

16 expertise or being somebody whose in the business of

L7 selling machine gun parts that these are illegal?

1_B A. Yes.

1-9 O. Okay. So the open venue that gun shows

zv provide allow you with your expertise to ensure

2L compliance with California machine gun law?

22 A. Yes.

23 0. By going to these shows?

24 A. Absolute]v.

25 MR. KILMER: No further questions

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1 EXAMINATIONBY MR. MacKAY:

2 O. The same is true for qun shows hel-d at

3 hotel-s and convention centers that you mentioned; is

4 that right?
q
A. Yes.

6 O. You mentioned that voufd found some

viol-ations which Sal-lie rectified.

B We¡e you talking about Sall_ie Nordyke?

9 A. Yes.

10 0. Vfhat violations are you referring to?

11 A. The out of state vendor who brouqht in the

L2 switch blades and then the out of state vendor who

13 brought the bl-ackjack and saps and the switchblades

L4 that one hras rectified by us telling that person to

15 get them of f the tabl-e. The other one we actuall-y

1_6 seized the ítems and cited the Ðerson.

I7 a. Thank vou. You mentioned that one reason --

1B wel-l, you mentioned that if there hrere no actuaf guns

19 at a gun show you had no, or would not have any

20 interest in going to that gun show; is that right?

2I A. As a private citizen, yes.

22 O. Is one reason for that given what sounds

23 like some extensive experience with hand guns or

24 firearms ?

25 A. Vüel-l, number one, if I r n r a sg o i n g to a gun

EsquireDepositionServices
800.770.3363
1 shohr private citizen, which I really havenrt

2 done III A long time, there wouldnrt be a reason to

go.

4 O. And why not?

5 A There wouldnrt be a possibility of seeing an

6 item that I woul-d be interested in.

0. Is it equally possible that someone with

I perhaps l-ess experience would go to learn about basic

9 gun safety or perhaps a firearm to purchase later?

10 Well, there are, there are cl-asses gi-ven at

II the shows to take the written HSC test so that's

L2 educational-.

13 BY MR. KILMER: And HSC stands for?

I4 THE VüITNESS: Hand gun safety certificate.

15 O. BY MR. MacKAY: And there are aspects of qun

1,6 education safety that coul-d be met or performed

71 without the actual- gun present; correct?

1ö A Yes, I believe so.

19 And at the Nordyke show there's some type of

ZU scouting organization that actually puts on some

2L firearm safety cfasses that Irve seen occur.

22 MR. MacKAY: Thank vou.

¿ J FURTHER EXAM]NAT]ON BY MR. KILMER:

24 ô Now the scouting orqani-zation i-s that l-ike

25 for the shotgun or rifl-e merit badge for the Boy

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800.770.3363
1 Scouts?

2 A. I believe itrs actually, they actually

3 put on the safety to I bel-ieve it is a requirement

4 for their marksmanship merit badge.


q
O. Just to clarify Mr. McKay's cl-arification,

6 Sal-l-ie Nordyke wasnrt in violation of any 1aw. She

brought a violation to your attention so that you

B could rectify the situation?

9 A. Yes.

l-0 O. That was with respect to blackjacks and

t_1 switchblades none of which are regulated by this

L2 Alameda ordinance?

l_3 A. No. They're regulated by the California

t4 Penal Code.

1_5 MR. KILMER: Thank you.

L6 No further questions.

L1 MR. MacKAY: No further questions.

1B Thank you.

L9 (Whereuponthe deposition concluded at 11-:08 a.m. )

20

2t

22 --oOo--

23

24

25

EsquireDepositionServices
800.770.3363
1 Pursuant to Section 2025 (q) (1) of the Code of Civil

2 Procedure of the State of California, I hereby

3 certify that I have read my deposition transcript,

4 made those chanqes and corrections that f deem

6 necessary, and approve the s a m e a s n o h r true and

6 correct.

7 Dated this day of , 2006.

1_0 IGNATIUS H. CHINN

11

L2

IJ

1 A

15

1_6

L7

1B

19

20

2L

22

23

24

25

EsquireDepositionServices
800.770.3363
t , t

1 REPORTER'S CERTTFTCÀTE
2 f certify that the r¡itness in the foregoing
3 depositíon,

5 was by me dury sworn to test.ify in the within-entitled,


6 cause; ttrat said deposition was taken at the time and
7 place ttrerein named; that the testimony of said r¡itness
I Iras reported by rne, a duly cerÈif ied. shorthand Reporter
9 of the s.ate of car-ífornia authorized to ad.ninister
10 oaths and affirmatÍon; and said testinony hras
11 thereafter transcríbed into typer,r_ritíng.
L2 r further certify that r am not of counsel nor
1 ?
at+'crney fcr either or any of the parties to said.
L4 deposition' nor in any way interested in the outcome of
t-5 the cause naned in said deposition.
l_6 rN I'TTNESS '{TIEREOF, r have
hereunto set ny hand
>l/
L7 th i s â: d a y of APAtc 2006 _
1_8

19

20

2L
I,ATIRTE LERDA,
fr, R 3649
State of Californía
22

23

24

25
CHANGES/CORREC'IIONS
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" )

V[ûúnessSigmatune Date
29
26:7 6:5,12,22 7:16,19 8:8 commencing 5:2 days7:3
ableL6:1,722:15 Attorney3:226:ll 8 : 1 79 : 1 4 1 2 : 1 7 compare17:9,19 dba 1:4
Absolutely23:24 authority 16:3 13:12l4:3,22,25,25 competitively19:15 dealer14:1020:25
accessoriesll:7 13:24 authorizesl8:9 1 5 : 61 6 : 8 , 1 1 , lL77: 9 complete14:9 2I:3
accomplished2l:15 autoT:12 l7:12,2120:18 22:6 compliance 10:12 dealers 20:19
Act 10:16 automatic9:2322:7 23:2126:13 27:2 1 l : 2 0 1 2 : 1273 : 2 1 deals18:7
acted16:15 Avenue3:6 28:1,7 complied13:l deem27:4
action16:7 average23:12 Californians13:23 complyI2:5 l4:5 Defendant3:l0
activities12:11 awarell:2313:21 call9:1823:9 complying16:18 Defendants l:13
activity 16:1 l4:24 called5:9 l4:7 22:3 Compound22:24 definition1l:4 17:8,10
actual24:1825:17 a.m2:4,5 5:226:19 capacity13:24l5:7,10 compromising20:14 17:12,19,20
ADAMS l:6 1 5 : 1 41 6 : 1 0 computer-assisted degreeT:25
agency21:10 capital5:17 28:15 denial9:22
agent8:189:2 B l:4 caption28:20 concluded 26:19 denials9:20
agents9:8,15 back13:1,23,24 l5:8 carbineZ2:7,8 conduct14:1520:10 DENNIS l:6
agreement16:5 15:1316:717:6,18 Carlos8:19 22:15 department 3:206:12
agricultural1l:12 20:17 CARSONl:10 conducted13:1620:9 6:227:1,5,16,25 8:17
Alameda1:II,l23:72 background9:22 l4:I5 case1:512:2320:14,14 connected 18:15 I8:14
6:8 ll:2416:23 18:19 28:19 connection22:20 Deponent 3:19
17:11,20 l8:l26:12 badge25:2526:4 cases9:18,1910:2,5,9 contact10:3 deposition l:17 2:1,2
Alcohol8:1221:9 BAKER 1:6 l5:9,10 contextl5:17 4:195:24,25 26:19
ALISON 3:21 BALTES l:6 c a u s e 2 l : 1 2 , 21 8 : 1 1 controller9:I I 27:328:18
Allen 1:36:3 based20:10 ceased13:4 controls9:12 Deputy3:13,22 6:7,11
Allison6:10 basic25:8 centersll:13 24:3 conventionll:.13 24:3 8:2I
allow23:20 beginning2:4 central 10:8 conversation17:14 destruction10:2
allowing22:21 behaW2:2 certificate8:1525:14 Conversion22:4 destructivel8:22
ammunitionI l:7 believe20:1525:18 certified2:65:48:14 converts22:.7 detain15:13
Al[N l:4 26:2,3 28:5,14,24 cooperative12:9 detectives 7:13
answer17:23 Bill9:18 cerfify 27:3 28:7,17 correct7:17 l8:3,4 develop 2l:12
antique l9:25 blackjackl3:3 24:13 CHAN 1:10 2 5 : 1 72 7 : 6 devices18:22
anyway 19:9 blackjacks26:10 chance16:25 correctingl0:19 differences14:1,2
APPEARÄNCES3:1 blades24:12 changes27:4 corrections27:4 difficult 22:18
appeared5:7 BLAIR l:6 charge8:19 counsel3:11,14 5:19 direction28:15
appears17:24 BOARD 1:12 charged22:22 6:2,8,1128:17 directly8:21,24
approve2T:5 Bob l:6 charges14:23 Counsel's6:8 I)irector 8:21,24
approximately7:10 bought22:8 checksl8:20 counterpart21:1I disconnect 22:923:9
9:10 Box3:23 C h i n nl : 1 82 : l 3 : 1 9 counties9:10l0:12 discovered 20: 17,20,21
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askedl2:2517:19 building13:18 Clara 11:21 criminalT:98:5 10:6 draw l7:7
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assault10.'2414:19 2l:9 clarify 26:5 currently 14:22 duly 5:1028:9,13
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assisted2l:17 buying14:19 clock19:18 d I:232:65:4 l4:8 l7:8 E 3 : 5
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attend 19:17,20 C l:5 collector20:7 dance18:10 educational 25:12
attended7:238:9 CalT:24 Colt8:10 Dated2T:7 either28:18
13:ll Californial;2,192:4 come9:20 10:1015:13 DAVIS 1:5 El14:23
attentionl3:8 17:7 3:7,16,20,245:4,6 L6:7 day27:728:22 elevenT:7

EsquireDeposition
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employed6:23 five7:3 half 6:247:70,17 item25:6 22:223:12
employer6:21 flintlock 18:3 hand 14:1924:23 items20',2224:16 lot16:2
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examined5:10 housesl8:20 23:2525:13,2326:15 MARY l:10
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evrmnfes 12:-1 gang7:14l0:7,714:22
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graduatedT:23 immediate 8:16,18 26:6 MJJ 1:5
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find 10:312:12 24:19,20,25 25:.9,14 interest20:324:20 license14:21 name6:159:24
fine6:16 25:15,I7 interested19:2425:6 licensedl4:.9,10,13 named28:12,20
firearm 12:18I7:9,10 guns10:413:2314:13 28:19 licenses 18:21 Napa20:182l:4,7,I9
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12:252l:3 HAGGERTY 1:11 issued6:1 lookl2,.2116:21l8:5 1 5 : 1 , 1l86 : 4 , 5

EsquireDeposition
Services
800.770.3363
3
l 3 :I outsidel3:ll productions18:11 28:14,24 sending 20:18
nineT:10,17 9:821:2 program9:20 reports8:21,24 sent2l:1322:14
nomenclature 8:139:6 prohibited9:19,24 representing 6:3 separate12:24l5:5
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11:1620:ll2l:13,24 PAGE4:18 promotersl6:17 resident14:12,14 served20:20
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normally 19:.8,25 participants18:9 provide23:20 responsibility9:4 Shorthand2:6 5:528:5
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north 9:9 10:12 parts2I :14,2522:1,2,3 public19:9 retired7:14 shot19:15
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EsquireDeposition
Seruices
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stricter 19:2,3 TR,{DE 1:4 l5:7,9,23 200010:16
sfiff12:25 traÍned8:3 wentT:15,22l5:I5,20 20029:17
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supervise 9:8,15 14:5 we'rel3:2118:19 254:9
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EsquireDepositionServices
800.770.3363
Lgg9,ø9-2ø L4r!2 *795 P.ø2,/Ø3

ORDINANCE
NO.

AN ORDTNANCE
AMENDING SECTTON CODE
9.12.120OF THECOUNTYORDTNANCE
THE POSSESSION
PROHIBITING ON COUNWPROPERTY
OF FIREAR¡IJIS

ot t'åt*ËT'i?Tr"åttãfi3i**oFALAMEDA
rHEBoARD
'
seêr¡otr
|
Thatthe OrdinanceCodeof the Countyof Alamedashallbe amendedby revisingSection
9.12.120to readas follows:

9.12,120Possessionof Firearmson County PropertyProhlblted


'
(a) Flndlngs. The Boardof Supervisors findsthatgunshotfatatitiesand inJuriesare of
epídemicproportions in AlamedaCounty. Duringthefirstfiveyearsof the 1990's879
homicideswerÊ'committed usingfirearms,and an additional1,647victimswere
hospitali4edwlthgunshotinjuries. Firearmsarethe leadingcauseof deatharnong
young'people betweenthe agesof 15 and 24 In AlamedaCounty.BetweenJuly1, 1996
and June30, 1997,136juvenileswerearrestedin Oaklandfor gun-relatedoffenses.On
July4, 1998a shootingIncidentonthe AlamedaCountyFairgrounds resuftedin several
gunshotwounds,otherinjuriesand panicamongfqirgoers. Proh[biting the possession
of firearmson Countypropertywíllpromotethe publichealthand safetyby contribut¡ng to
the reductionof gunshotfatalitiesand injuriesin the County.

(b) Misdemeanor.*aO personwhcibringsontoor possesses on Countypropertya


firearm,loaded'orunloaded,or ammunition
for a firearmis gulltyof a misdemeenor..
'(c) ' -Counþ Propert¡1.As usedin thissectlon,the termCountypropertymeansroal .
'.:. property,includingany buildingsthereon,ownedor.leasedÞy.t¡eCounty.of Alameda
.(hereinafter"Countyr), and in the County'spossassion,
or in the possessionof.apublic
or privateenti$ undercontractwiththe Countyto performa publicpurpose,includin$but
. not limítedto real propefi ownedor leasedby theiCountyin the unlncorporatedand
incôrporated portionsof the County,suchas the Countyparkín Sunoland the Alameda'
. CountyFairgrounds In the.Cityof Pleasanton,
but doesnot inclúdeany "local.publíc
bulldlng'asdef¡nedin PenalCodeSectlon171b(c),wherethe Stateregulates
. possession of firearmspursuantto PenalCodeSectlon171b.

(d) Firearm. "Firearm'isanygun,pistol,revolver,rifleor any'device,designedor modified


to be usedas a weapon,fromwhichis expelledthror.rgh a barrela projectileby the force
of an explosionorotherformof combustion. 'Flrearml doesnot include'imitation
.
firearmeor BBgunsand air rifles'asdefinedin Goverriment CodeSectíon53071.5.

(e) Ammunition. 'Ammunitlon" as definedin PenalCodeSeðtlon


ls anyammuniüon
12316(bX2).

(f) Exceptfons.Subsection9.12.120(b) doesnot applyto the'following:


(1) A peaceofficeras definedin Title3, Part2, Chapter4.5 oÍ the California
FRof : L999,ø9-2Ø !42L2 *795 P.ø3/ø3

PenalCode(sections 830ef seg.);


.(2) t g,uard ol mgYs.engei of a financiálinstitution.
a guardof a contractcanier
operatingan armoredvehicle,á l¡censedprivateinvest¡gätðr;;ãi.iõätä;;;j#;
Pmp.aly operator,or uniformedseclrity guardar tnesõãriiñiñ;ãr" definedin
Penal'codesecllon12031(d)açdwho trol¿sa validcertíficatäis.räãËv
me oefariment
of ConsumerAffairsunderPenalCodesection12ög3,whileactuallyäploye¿
engagedin protectingand preserving and
propertyor ¡¡rew¡tlri;th" säË" hís or her
employment; "f
(3) A p.ej!!|r holdinga val¡dlicensetg carrya firearm.issued
' Codesection12050; pursuant to penal
(4) The possession of a firearrnoy an authorized participantin a motionpicture,
television,video,dance,or theatricalproäuctionoievent,whenthe parilcipant
usesthe I'irearmas partof thatproductionor event,providedthatwhensuch lararfr.rlfy
firearmis.
not ln the actualposses'síon of the authorizedparticlþant. ¡t ¡sseìurôã'iopr"u"nt ..
. unauthorÍzed use.

Countyroads;
.--(6) A personlawfulfyusingthe targetrangeoperatedby the AtamedaCounty
Sheriff,
Q A federalcriminalinvestígator or tawenforcement officer;or
- (8) A memberof the militaryforcesof the Stateof California
- '- or
-' of
- the United
stateswhileengagedin the performahce of his or her dutv. .-
(g) . Severability.lf any provisionof thissectionor the applicationthereofto any personor
circumstance isheld invalid,suchinv¿lidityshatlnot aifectanyotherpàvisiän or
applícation
of thissectionwhichcan be giúeneffectwithoutttrbi""ãi¡äprouiiiåÀo.'
applicatíon,
andto this endthe provisionlof thissectionare severablã.
'
.SECTION II
.
This ordinanceshalltakeeffectand be in fdrcethirty (30) daysfrom and aftei the date of
passageand befoiethe expfration of fifreenOaysafiei itépaósageit shallbe publishedonce'with
the namesof the membersvotingfor and againstlhesamein ihé lnter-City -r eipiesJ,
---' á
newspeper publishedin the Countyof Alarneda.

{dop!e-dbVthe Boardof Supervisorsof the County'ofAlameda,Stateof Catifomia,on the 2l"r


dayof Septernber;
1999,by the followingcalledvóte:
AYES:
NOES;
EXCUSED:

. WILMACHAN
Presidentof the Boardof gupervisors
Counþ of Alameda, State of Callfornia

ATTEST:CRYSTALK. HISHIDA,Clerk
of the Boardof Sup'ervisors,
Countyof Alameda
Approved o$ fo Form
By