Walter Ogris Conducts a Personal Interview with Emil Stejnar

Edited excerpts from the interview with Emil Stejnar from the summer of 2006 for the Archive of
Hermetic Texts

(translatet by Eva and Bill Cranstoun)

Ogris: Bardon has not only many loyal followers, but also is often attacked and slandered on
the Internet. How do you explain this?

Stejnar: Personally I only know readers of Bardon who treasure his works very much. In cases
where someone is criticizing his books, when you really look at what they are saying it is evident
that they have not understood what they have read. Without exception in these cases we have
people who read about Hermetics and Magic but who are completely inexperienced. In addition
it seems that many of these writers are not very well educated and use criticisms to promote
typical sectarian arguments. Forgive me if I do not go along with this kind of approach. I would
advise everyone to do Bardons exercises while at the same time to try to live your lives
successfully through wholly normal means. Someone who fails in life will not reach success with
magic either. That is curious fact. Whoever discovers how it works doesn't need magic anymore.
Also its really not about Bardon but about the curriculum he put together.. What he has given
has so far never been described in such a clear and
practical form before. It will take a few years before one recognize what really matters. This is
unfortunately not teachable. Everyone must discover this for themselves.

Ogris: You are a supporter of Bardon's yet you are not completely uncritical of his work. You
have corrected some mistakes that you found in his books. For example the governors of the
zone girdling the earth and the spirits of Abramelin have the same names, and that the Moon
and Sun geniuses were not properly named. Is there an explanation for this?

Stejnar: Yes. I clear this up in my new book about Franz Bardon that will come out shortly, and
for which I now take the opportunity to advertise.

Ogris: There are many long standing rumors that Quintscher was Bardon's teacher. But when
you compare the two of them there appear to be significant differences.

Stejnar: You are right. There are world's of differences between the teaching approaches of
Bardon and Quintscher. It was Hemberger who was the first to spread this nonsense in one of
his “documentations.” Then others, who admitted to me later that they had never read Bardon,
and took this “documentation” legitimatized it wth some academic footnotes and passed it on
further. As you know I was good friends with Hemberger. I have even the publishing rights to his
works and inherited his magical rings. I had many conversations with him as well as undertaken
Lodge work together. I also know that he has never practiced the way laid out by Bardon, but
practice an old form of conjuring magic. Hemberger owned a copy of Quinscher's teaching
materials that had Bardon's name stamped in the front cover. It was also clear to him that
Bardon was a friend of the older Quinscher in his youth and therefore he knew the true nature of
their “student teacher “ relationship. Even Ernst the son of Quintscher himself, confirmed to me
that as Bardon was introduced to his father, that he already had magical abilities and that he
demonstrated them on several occasions. He has told me some funny anecdotes, but I have
already mentioned that in a previous interview.

Ogris: Why have you not tried to clear this up with Hemberger?

Stejnar: I have. But when I met him he had already published this manuscript. By the way, he
was not a student of Weinfurter either, as the otherwise useful “Lexicon of Secret Knowledge”
by Horst E. Mier claims. Bardon had contact with all of the occultists of his time, and for sure
there was a fruitful exchange between them all. But Bardon's work is unique.

Ogris: In spite of that it is often claimed that Bardon's magical path does not work.

Stejnar: Who says that? Do you know these people? Do you know if they have mastered step
one and two of Initiation into Hermetics? Do you believe that they have had success with a
different magical system? Do you know anyone that has been able to achieve anything useful
with Magic?

Ogris: And you? Have you had success with Bardon's magic? Have you reached prosperity
through Magic? Do you attribute your success to Magic?

Stejnar: I don't occupy myself with Magic anymore. To create a life of success Magic is quite
unsuitable. It is enough when you work in the line and sense of Prentice Mulford and think
positively and correctly. I guarantee you your visualizations combined with corresponding living
feeling will fulfill all of your wishes.

Ogris: What purpose does magic serve.

Stejnar: Magic is for the schooling of the soul and spirit. What Bardon describes is also a great
help for everyday life. Whoever trains their spiritual organs in a certain way, doesn't need magic.
For them daily life becomes a yoga practice and every obstacle a spiritual sport. Due to Science
and technology mankind seems to be in control of the world. But has he got control of himself?
Is he the master of his thinking, his emotions and his bodily desires? We are not born into the
world, but into our bodies. Incarnation comes from the “carne”, that means flesh, we have
become flesh, and we are dependent on our genetic structure. The genetic conditions determine
everyone's specific tendencies,
characteristics and behavior, and to work against these there is only one means; the power of
imagination and will. And exactly these are developed through a Hermetic schooling.

Ogris: You have developed in your books a magic without magic, and describe some things
differently from what Franz Bardon taught. According to you the elemental beings and
elementaries are not helping spirits but cells comprised of elemental essence,(Wesenzellen)
unique to our personal nature that build up our soul and spirit subtle bodies. You describe the
super sensible organism with organs corresponding to the planetary powers that we must
develop if we want to use the subtle body. In your view we don't wake up after death in a
beyond, but in a personal soul garden where our personal essences become spirits and beings
again and we are surrounded by them. Is it possible to reconcile
these views with Bardon's teaching?

Stejnar: Definitely. What I describe is no contradiction to Bardon's Hermetics. Just the opposite,
it is a deepening of his teachings. Also Hermetics must be learned and practiced step by step.
First one must learn to deal with the elemantaries Only then can we grasp the mystery of the
cells of elemental essences and understand inner anatomy and the light body. In fact every
fleeting thought, every inner picture, idea or melody that goes through our head is already an
elemental being and not only the more compact “magical” creation that you can send to
someone
because you want something from him. And the desire for the next cigarette is already and
elementary. What is left of you when you take away your every thought and feeling. Also the
primary causes of your character and habits lay in these essential cellular beings. They are the
cells of your spiritual flesh and blood. This is true of the genies and gods as well. This fact is
one of the biggest mysteries that we
need to come to terms with.

Ogris: Bardon describes spirits which will inspire human beings in the future in such a way that
we can create a modern paradise on earth. Some inventions that he had foreseen like satellite
connections and the many sided applications of that technology are already in use today.. In
spite of of this it appears that evil never sleeps. You have written in one of your books, long
before the Berlin Wall came down, that communism would come to an end, and that in spite of
this, the world would not be more peaceful. You further predicted that humanity would soon after
become polarized through religious fundamentalism and brought into a new state of cold war. In
the meantime it has become
clear that also your second prediction was correct. Was Bardon too optimistic? Can evil not be
conquered?.

Stejnar: So called evil has many forms of expression. In this case we are dealing with stupidity,
greed for money and hunger for power. Stupidity because the religious fanatics pray to a
“god”and not for the Good, and the hunger for power, because now and again leaders appear
who use stupid people for their own agenda. Fighters for revenge, religious armies, and national
ideologues and the seducers of the weak minded. There are a handful of people who are
earning millions of dollars by maintaining small wars here and there against terrorism and
renegade nations. The ones who stir up and finance terrorists, gain power and all those who
stand apparently against them, the oil merchants and weapons producers, make lots of money.
There is no war of cultures. And its not the real problems like hunger, and poverty that are the
danger. The dangers lay in the method using problems and questions of belief as a pretext for
spreading hate. The demons of hate who, because of their emotions, will act as their human
representatives. For this reason I maintain that all forms of religion and belief are dangerous.
Even the esoteric becomes dangerous and problematic when it appears as a form of belief and
claims the spiritual for itself, and doesn't give validity to any other. Not because there is a
danger of building up sects, but because every belief hems one in and clouds the mind from an
open and lively perspective. One of Bardons often repeated sayings was that “ Nothing bad
comes without also bringing with it something good.” That is in fact so, we can observe this
again and again. Evil has a certain place in creation. That doesn't mean though, that we should
support it through our thinking, feelings and behavior. We cannot overcome evil, but we should
not be the one's bringing it into the world.

Ogris: It comes to me that Bardon and also you as good as never use the word God. You both
describe that mystery as divine providence. Do you not believe in God?

Stejnar: I don't believe that I can believe in the God that the different religions describe and to
whom believers and followers of various confessions pray. That is not my God. These are
phantoms created through the power of human thought and are not even gods. I do believe
though in an invisible complex multi layered power that in form and space exists as
comprehensive spiritual law. The proof for this is for me lies in the fantastic creation, the miracle
of life and consciousness and the ingenious creations of humanity. Look at the arts or scientific
arenas and first and foremost the science and astrology that allow us to understand and
calculate spiritual dynamics and events. I cannot believe that we are all figures moved around in
a godless computer game that has programmed itself from pure chance.

Ogris: Again you are saying power and not God.

Stejnar: OK. Say it how you want. You can also personify It. I don't have problem with it since I
am convinced that this power is as conscious of it's existence as humans and all the other
spirits. We will never comprehend this power and that is why I don't mention It.

Ogris: How is it with the so called gods spirits and demons. Are they merely projections of
human minds or do they exit in the way Franz Bardon has described them?
Stejnar: Yes I do believe that they exist. But we must differentiate between those that existed
already, and those born out of the thinking and feeling of mankind.

Ogris: Which of them are good? With Bardon there isn't black/white thinking. What is it with
good and evil? Why does evil always seem to come out ahead? How is it that the good in the
world is the inferior power? If in the animal world the stronger survive that is understandable and
probably necessary for preservation of the species. But in the plant world I ask myself why the
cultivated plants are immediately overgrown with weeds if the weeds aren't pulled out in a timely
manner. In the human world it looks as if the proliferating weeds of the criminal element can
never be brought under control.

Stejnar: Yes, I do differentiate between good and evil. We can do that without philosophizing
about it, but it must be redefined on a case by case basis. Then we will notice that in fact this is
what is meant by Bardon that the dissolving principle has an important place in creation.
Therefore we will never be able to completely eliminate it. It can only be placed within limits by
transforming it. Evil shows its ugliest face when it works through humanity. Everyone always
decides for themselves what is good and what is evil. The individual must control it from inside
themselves. It is best if he thinks over and contemplates his thoughts and desires which
determine his behavior, from the standpoint of his fellow human beings. What is Good and what
is evil? Evil is always what is too much or what is too little. Exaggeration or degeneration in a
certain direction. Too much courage becomes foolishness, too little gives way to fear, and
paralyzes. But fear is also good because it makes us careful and put the brakes on foolishness.
Good is the middle. Through this example it becomes clear that there are many more
opportunities for evil than for the good. It is two to one. The so called evil can distort from two
sides and good has only the possibility to defend the middle ground. Therefore it is very
important to be attentive, to discover and bring to a halt every little tendency that becomes too
strong in one direction.
.
Ogris: Do you believe in Baphomet and Lucifer and all of the evil spirits and demons?

Stejnar: What goes for the good angels and gods goes also for the others the so called evil
spirits. I have no problem in personalizing them. I find the spirit model better than what many of
the modern esoteric people do when they reduce all beings to “just” frequencies and fields. The
question is not if they exist or if we believe in them but how they came to be. Its not about
whether a spirit is good or bad but about the fact that most spirits are dependent on human
beings. Wherever that is the case, that good spirits are dependent on human beings, they can
also degenerate. Not because they want to hurt humanity, but because without noticing it, they
keep humanity back from becoming more powerful
than they themselves. They support and help evolution as they enter into it, but they prevent the
individual from consistent development and from becoming independent of these spirits. I don't
mean now the larvae and schema, the freeloaders that Bardon describes, also not every god
that comes into being through the prayers and thoughts of humanity. I also have the suspicion
that the whole Hierarchy of spirits that Bardon describes profits from the human race. In so far
as they inspire individuals to think and act along certain lines they will then become clever and
collect new inner knowledge, but at the same time will be pulled into another plane, and will
lose, if they don't distance themselves again, a part of their complex identity. We must always
be wakeful and remain in control of what we are currently thinking and feeling. It is very difficult
to differentiate between our own personal elementals our own thoughts and the rest of our
otherwise subtle vehicles of consciousness from the elemental
inspirations that appear in consciousness. In principle it is dangerous when we develop one
sided specialties or ingenious faculties when they come at the expense of other interests.

Ogris: What do you understand by the term black magic? I am reading a book at the moment
by Paulo Coelho. Do you know him? Does he belong to your “esoteric circle?” He describes
namely a meeting with evil and it was exactly like you describe in two of your books.

Stejnar: You are the fourth person to ask me that. In the meantime someone has sent me two
books of him, and I understand your question. You mean his terrible experience of the sooty
black darkness that manifested in his apartment and wouldn't go away for days?
Ogris: Exactly. He felt such fear that he left his black magic lodge and instead became a
member of some pious Catholic sect.

Stejnar: So, it is much more dangerous when evil hides in a human than when it manifests itself
in the form of soot and smoke in a room. It is not the evil that creates fear but the unfamiliar and
unexplained. In spite of that I don't understand why, Coelho, who is supposedly such a tough
guy,
immediately gave up magic all together. The interesting thing is that supposedly other members
of his lodge had the same experience. But with me it was different. The meeting of the
protagonist with Baphomet that I describe in The Book of the Master and in the children's book
Andy Mo was simply made up. That still I describe it just as Coelho experienced it, is no wonder.
You make something up and naturally you have that experience in the spirit. Every thought is an
experience and an effect on super sensible planes. When you want to describe something, you
draw a picture in the spirit and you create it so to speak and it doesn't matter if it existed before,
independently from your thoughts, or not. It continues to exist afterwards still for a time longer. If
others read it and participate in spiritually drawing the same image, then it lasts even longer. It
would be interesting to know when Coelho and his friends had this experience. I wrote these
passages around 1993- 1994. The place in Andy Mo was written much later, perhaps his book
had already been read, and the image was already charged up from many readers.

Ogris: You depict in your Book of the Master the region of Golema, the intelligence that is
responsible for authors, and supported Bardon as an author. In that region the fantasies and
thoughts exist that every writer will find as if in an immense library where all is accessible, and
everyone creates from the same offering of images. Coelho has written another book in which
he has incorporated your thoughts, I mean, his book “The Alchemist.” The whole book touches
on the same Jewish fable of the dream about a buried treasure that you also describe in your
fourth book of the Master as the search for the true I Am. From you, one page, from him, a
whole book.

Stejnar: A book that became a best seller. The wise rabbi who once made up this story would
be happy to know that his thoughts-seeds had sprouted and has borne fruit. Now back to your
question about evil. I never tried to evoke or call forth evil. But still I have had similar
experiences that have given me a powerful fright. Many believe that they experience a
manifestation from another plane but in fact it is their own spiritual flatulence that they are
unloading. The intense expectation and creepy mood produces a corresponding elementary that
makes their hair stand on end, or a shadow is created that makes some kind of noise. If
especially gifted or sensitive people are working together or devote
themselves to a common imagination over a longer period of time then they can create a group
spirit the so called egregore. That rarely manifests itself in front of its victims, but in them in such
a way that they they never notice. For the most part nothing actually happens in an evocation or
ceremonial circle. Luckily. Mostly, when someone senses an actual being in the near
environment they lose it in their pants. Even Crowley supposedly brought his Abremelin
exercises to a premature close because uncomfortable spook phenomenon started happening.
And a son of the grandmaster of the Fraternitas Saturni landed with the Jehovas Witnesses
after a successful conjuration of Lucifer. I still know some people who considered themselves to
be big masters and then, after their first experience with the super sensible, they became
innocent pious churchgoers.

Ogris: How have similar experiences affected you? You have described in an article that two
magazines carried, one called “The Other World” and the other one called “Anubis”, an
experience where your bed floated up over a meter off the floor. Then the furniture went crazy,
and there was an unbelievable noise so that everyone fled out of the apartment building in the
middle of the night

Stejnar: Yes that was in 1958 in Sweden. I had then a visit from a friend from Vienna. We were
nineteen years old and had both been doing Bardon exercises for a few months. The scary part
was the gruesome fear that I had, because I thought a demon in the form a green face was
trying to force its way into my body, and wanted to pull me out of my body. I was paralyzed and
moaning in a dreadful way. Naturally that had scared my friend who only saw green light coming
out of my eyes, and my bed with me on it off the floor, and furniture flying around the room. After
that we were scared for days.

Ogris: In spite of that you didn't renounce magic and join a monastery?

Stejnar: No, no. As a child I had already had impressive appearances, at that time they were
light forms that I took for Jesus and Maria, that created as much fear in me as the guardian of
the threshold. I was already prepared so that I had soon conquered that terror. This experience
was even a challenge for me which led me to really start my magical training in seriousness. I
did not need to go to a monastery because I already lived as hermit. The Swedish village that I
lived in was the end of the world for me since I came from a big city, and I devoted all of my free
time exclusively to my magical training. I was young and curious and fascinated by the fantastic
possibilities. I did the most impossible experiments.

Ogris: Can you tell me more about them?

Stejnar: No I don't want to create an advertisement for nonsense. That wastes energy and time.
Magical training is not meant for us to control the world and the spirits, but instead that we,
through magic, cease to be controlled by them and the world. There are much easier options to
make your destiny happy and successful. Magic is absolutely unsuitable for that. First of all it
doesn't always function as you expect and second as I have said, to be successful, there are
much easier and simpler ways to get there. I did not know that at the time.

Ogris: You mention that again and again. In spite of that your have written a book for children
and adolescents that leads to the magical way that Bardon and your Books of the Master
describe.

Stejnar: My book, “Andy Mo” is quasi an answer to Harry Potter. Wait for the second part. There
I lead the children away from magic again, and show them how that through their thoughts and
discipline they can effect far more than with all that lazy magic.

Ogris: What do you think of Dan Brown and his bestsellers The Da Vinci Code and Angels and
Demons?

Stejnar: Wonderfully exciting, but fiction. I have not read them. But it is true that not only the
Illuminati and the Freemasons own the key to magic. Also the Christian orders guard the secrets
and have access to the, magical mysteries, which they themselves condemmed. They work with
the key of the hermetic three and hermetic four as well. I describe that in detail in my Books of
the Master. There you can find what Dan Brown surely has not described. But next year he
releases a novel about the Freemasons. Possibly he has stolen something out of my books.