Emotional Manipulation

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A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy

September 12, 2011 in Women with 277 Comments
Youre so sensitive. Youre so emotional. Youre defensive. Youre overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! Youre crazy! I was just joking, dont you have a sense of humor? Youre so dramatic. Just get over it already!
Sound familiar? If youre a woman, it probably does. Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said? When someone says these things to you, its not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without callingthats inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, Calm down, youre overreacting,after you just addressed someone elses bad behavior, is emotional manipulationpure and simple.
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A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy
And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. Its patently false and unfair. I think its time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation and we need to use a word not found in our normal vocabulary. I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting. Gaslighting is a term, often used by mental health professionals (I am not one), to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that theyre crazy. The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergmans husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergmans character reacts to it, he tells her shes just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victims perception of him or herself. Today, when the term is referenced, its usually because the perpetrator says things like, Youre so stupidor No one will ever want you,to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyers character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergmans character into believing herself unhinged. The form of gaslighting Im addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another. Those who engage in gaslighting create a reactionwhether its anger, frustration, sadnessin the
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person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings arent rational or normal. My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, Youre so sensitive. Im just joking. My friend Abbie works for a man who finds a way, almost daily, to unnecessarily to unnecessarily shoot down her performance and her work product. Comments like, Cant you do something right?or Why did I hire you?are regular occurrences for her. Her boss has no problem firing people (he does it regularly), so you wouldnt know that based on these comments, Abbie has worked for him for six years. But every time she stands up for herself and says, It doesnt help me when you say these things, she gets the same reaction: Relax; youre overreacting. Abbie thinks her boss is just being a jerk in these moments, but the truth is, he is making those comments to manipulate her into thinking her reactions are out of whack. And its exactly that kind manipulation that has left her feeling guilty about being sensitive, and as a result, she has not left her job. But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, Youre so sensitive,to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel. While dealing with gaslighting isnt a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships. And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting. Why? Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men. Its a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they dont refuse our burdens as easily. Its the ultimate cowardice. Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: it renders some women emotionally mute. Vital Voices These women arent able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They cant tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They cant tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good. The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, Forget it, its okay. That forget itisnt just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. Its heartbreaking. No wonder some women are unconsciously passive aggressive when expressing anger, sadness, or frustration. For years, they have been subjected to so much gaslighting that they can no longer express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them. They say, I m sorry,before giving their opinion. In an email or text message, they place a smiley face next to a serious question or concern, thereby reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings. You know how it looks: Youre late :) These are the same women who stay in relationships they dont belong in, who dont follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live. JustSeeking on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as crazyhas really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general. Heartbreak Listening To Chris Brown: An Offense To All A Mans Complicated Heart. Why Cant It Be Easier? Our Need For Privacy: The Blueprint of Abuse If Men Had Periods: Women Would Know All About It Listening To Chris Brown: An Offense To All Women Miss Representation The Good Men Project The Women's Media Center Girl Scouts of the US I Holla Back Stop Street Harassment
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From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration. Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, Oh, about how crazy we are? Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves. As far as I am concerned, the epidemic of gaslighting is part of the struggle against the obstacles of inequality that women constantly face. Acts of gaslighting steal their most powerful tool: their voice. This is something we do to women every day, in many different ways. I dont think this idea that women are crazy,is based in some sort of massive conspiracy. Rather, I believe its connected to the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis. And gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as crazy. I recognize that Ive been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friendssurprise, surprise). Its shameful, but Im glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it. While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. Its about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion. When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions. When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn. So for many of us, its first about unlearning how to flicker those gaslights and learning how to acknowledge and understand the feelings, opinions, and positions of the women in our lives. But isnt the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that womens opinions dont hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isnt quite as legitimate?
Women | The Current Conscience / Inspired me to tell the get over itstory. beheshtenoemi on Listening To Chris Brown: An Offense To All Women yourspiritualtruth on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak How Ice T and Obama Empower Women Women Well Loved on Banishing The Word BossyFrom Our Vocabularies Sera Ta on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak KIA on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak Gina on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak Jonathan Gaurano on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak How to Make Everyone Happy (Part II: Him) Women Well Loved on The Dull, Chronic Pain of Heartbreak To Watch | Pearltrees on A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy
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CATEGORIES 277 Responses to A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy
edie98
January 15, 2012 at 1:15 pm #
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I just want to say that I really enjoyed this article and got something out of it both because as a woman
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I ve been on the receiving end of this behavior, and also because I can apply the terminology to gaslighting Ive encountered elsewhere, including from other women and especially my own mother. Coming from that perspective, I think its time someone pointed out that this is an article, not an encyclopedia. In other words, the authors choice to point out a specific form of gaslighting pervasive in our culture, does not preclude the existence of other forms of gaslighting, including predominantly female-on-male forms, attacks on sensitivemen, or women gaslighting other women. It just so happens that so many women have experienced this, and the authors heard so many stories from them, that a pattern has formed demanding recognition. The problems of mens treatment of women, and our societys support for that, deserve a place on the internet. They do not need to be buttressed with five million disclaimers for all the other problems in the world, any more than specific charities should be compelled to explain why they only address hunger, and not also cancer, homelessness, AIDS, etc. If you want to write an article on how the term gaslighting applies to something specific that many women do to men, go right aheadtheres a space on the internet for that too. And it will get more respect from me and a lot of other women reading this than just defensively reacting about your issues on an article thread about other peoples issues. Log in to Reply
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NobodysAingyl
January 11, 2012 at 8:01 pm #
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I m only part way through the comments, but I feel the urge to leave my two cents. Yes, Im a woman. Yes, Im a bit sensitive, Im definitely emotional, and I fully acknowledge that I tend to over-react over a plethora of things, some important, some so trivial to be beyond silly. However, I am in therapy in order to unlearn bad behaviors and ingrained responses so that I can learn to actually be an adult instead of the child Ive been for far too long. Gaslighting is definitely a problem in our society, but so is handing out doctors notesleft and right to people (men AND women) that excuse their behavior because of the situation, their upbringing, their personality traits, etc. Emotions matter, yes, but so does behavior, and there is NO excuse for hurtful, damaging, abusive behavior. Temper tantrums are for children, not grown adults. If youve ever been to therapy, or more specifically DBT Dialectical Behavior Therapy, you learn that emotions themselves are not bad. They just are. However, you learn how to examine your emotions and the situations that trigger them, and to see if how you feel fits the situation or if they are unjustified. You may be being triggered by an unconscious (or conscious) memory and not by the actual event youre currently responding to. You also learn that irrational emotions and behaviors are ones that do not fit the situation and that only make things worse. Using elfen_berserkers (apologies if mispelled!) post as an example and responding to ohwowreally reply, blowing up over a knife, kitty litter, or cigarettes does not fit the situations of using the wrong knife to cut an onion, using more litter than necessary in the kitty box, or not correcting a cashier when they give you the wrong cigarettes, even IF the true underlying cause is a repeated dismissal of requests over something perceived as trivial and unimportant. Being upset over not being listened to is logical, but going over the top in reaction is NEVER ok. Being genetically dispositioned toward certain behaviors is also not an excuse. My biological fathers family is legendary for their tempers, and how quick they are to fly off the handle and get out of control. I used to be the same way, but Ive learned to reign in my temper and THINK before going buck nutty. Being emotional is not a crime. Standing up for yourself is not a crime. Calling people on their bullshit when they invalidate you in an attempt to avoid the issue of their own behavior or so they dont have to deal with what youre trying to talk to them about? Also not a crime, but the way you do it is just as important as doing it in the first place. I will never apologize for being a bit sensitive to some issues, I will continue to work on myself so that I am able to respond appropriately rather than irrationally in situations that upset me, and I will continue to encourage the women I know to do the same thing. Also, my bf occasionally tells me to calm down when I get over the top. Our therapist has only cautioned him on how he goes about it, since his entire purpose in doing so is so we can discuss the issue instead of me going all RAWR and making things worse. Log in to Reply
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KIA
December 15, 2011 at 7:31 pm #
very interesting article. I agree that the gaslightingphenomenon is a problem but I think the author is overlooking one key point; I think it is important to clarify between irrational feelings and irrational behavior. Feelings are subjective. By that nature no one can really tell another person how they should FEEL about something. So irrational feelings is almost like an oxymoron. SO, the author is correct in asserting that men should not label a womens strong emotional reactions as crazyor even irrational. I acknowledge that this concept is difficult for me as a typicalman to accept and Im sure it was a problem in some of my past relationships. However, I think women in particular also need to understand that emotions often lead to some truly awful and inappropriate BEHAVIORS. And this is simply unacceptable. For example, in my past relationships with certain highly emotional women the slightest provocation would often lead to behaviors that included violence, verbal abusive, and/or uncontrollable crying. Instead of calmly talking about feelings, these women would lash out and/or cry to the point where effective communication was impossible. That kind of excessively emotional behavior is unfortunately typical of women and it is something that men around the world have to deal with on a daily basis. When irrational behavior like that occurs, pointing it out is not psychological manipulation, it is an attempt to let the person know that what they are doing is wrong and will not be tolerated. Log in to Reply
Aisly
I fail to understand your logic in saying these are unacceptable behaviors, considering mens emotions lead to some pretty unacceptablebehaviors as well. You cannot be so quick to judge one sex without judging your own lest you want to sound hypocritical and bigoted. Women are programmed to think more emotionally and sympathetically than men, men tend to think more logically, more mathematically and methodically, therefore you cant say these are unacceptable to the predisposition to think thusly. Men act just as irrationally when their emotions come to the surface, you cant deny that, we have all seen it happen. Telling a woman she her behavior is unacceptable when she upset is probably why those relationships didnt work for you, not to mention if theres been so many of these women in your life you might have learnt a thing or two by now. If you want someone who isnt so unstablethen try dating a man who does these things to women, or maybe just a man in general considering they dont get emotional. I find this completely overreaching and for you to say such shows your lack of understanding the psyche. Log in to Reply
Chris
December 23, 2011 at 4:38 am #
You cannot be so quick to judge one sex without judging your own lest you want to sound hypocritical and bigoted. Usually I would fully agree to this sentence and applaud to it. Because it is just so true. The problem is, in this discussions it is like that in 99% of the topics, isnt it? Or where is the judging of the other sex in so many posts or comments here? Also I dont see KIA unfairly judging one sex. All that he does in his post is differentiating between feelings and behaviour. Yes, feelings are subjective and one should accept the ffelings of his/her partner. Point. But actions and behaviour are somethin different. And there simply are behaviours that are over the top, wrong or simply crazy. And why is it wrong pointing this out? And Yes, this is the case for men too. But in this topic, emotional reactions, it is more often something women do. Again, more often, not always. And no this is not about reacting emotional or being emotional it is about completely irrational behaviour. Log in to Reply
KIA
January 3, 2012 at 12:35 pm #
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I never said it was ok for men to act irrationally, I said that women in particular should be careful about letting their emotions lead to irrational behaviors because, as you also stated, women tend to think and act more with their emotions, and this can often lead to irrational and unacceptable behaviors. I also never said womenspredisposition to thinking more emotionally is unacceptable. I actually stated the exact opposite by saying that no one has the right to tell another person how they should think or feel. With regards to me personally, I concur that (like the vast majority of men in this world) I do have a rather narrow understanding of the female psyche and that has certainly lead to some issues in my past relationships. However, I am also part of the minority of men who is willing to extend time and effort to learn and improve in this regard. Your suggestion to resort to homosexuality instead of making the above mentioned efforts is a terrible suggestion. Aside from the fact that I am not physically attracted to men, taking that approach would mean that I am cheating myself out of an opportunity to learn and improve. At the end of the day, I think that is what life is all about. Log in to Reply
letty
Thank you so much for this article. I stayed in an abusive relationship for 11 years because I was made to feel like I was over-reactive and unstable. My ex husband used many of these techniques with me and still does because we have to communicate for the sake of our 4 kids. When I see him he always raises a sensitive issue and undermines my feelings and when I get worked up he says Im nuts. He often organises things and leaves out an important piece of information and then treats me like Im stupid when I dont understand. Just yesterday I had to pick up some money from him and he let me know that he had it and I said that I was just at Bunnings and would collect it when I was finished there. When I went to collect it he wasnt there. After unsuccessfully trying to contact him I went home. A while later he called and said he was at his parents,I asked why didnt you tell me?He said I ve been here the whole time.I asked again then why didnt you tell me thats where you were?He then brushed me off saying that it wasnt a big deal. It was a big deal to me, I went out of my way to collect it and he has been stuffing me around with child support since we separated. It is so much easier to deal with though now that I can see what he is doing and I now realise that I am not neurotic, that most of the time he is setting me up to react and then putting me down. That was also a tactic that he used a lot when we were married, he would build me up and then when I was feeling good he would tear me to pieces, it got to the point where I was actually afraid to feel good about myself because I knew what was coming next, and when he treated me badly it was always because of something Id done. I have a lot of girl friends that are treated the same and this is that type of behaviour that traps them in abusive relationships because there self confidence is so greatly diminished. It is a whole new form of domestic violence that we need to shine a light on. My husband used to think he wasnt abusive because he didnt bash me. We have made progress on making domestic violence socially unacceptable but how do we address something that is so subtle. Log in to Reply
jenacadabra
Thank you so much for this. Id never heard of gaslighting before. But I am going to print out this article for my boyfriend for the next time he tells me to stop being over-sensitive or to calm down. Its great to have specific vocabulary to identify a problem rather than just a discomfiting feeling that hes playing power games to refuse to listen to me. Thanks Log in to Reply
Dedees World
November 27, 2011 at 12:28 pm #
I think that the intention behind this post is great, but at the end of the day women need to wake up and set up boundaries for the abusethey are willing to accept. At the end of the day I think that society is only reflecting back to us the inner beliefs that weve been ingrained with. Its our responsibility to manage our inner beliefs and to know that were not crazyfor acting or feeling the way we do and then society wont have a choice in respecting that. The Dalai Lama said it best :Be the change that you seek in the world. Log in to Reply
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Coleen
November 22, 2011 at 10:28 am #
Its just like the slap on the back and be a man; big boys dont crythat men and boys get when they show emotions at any given time when others would rather not hear of their plight or admit that they hurt males too. Then, they are told they are defective because they dont know to express themselves after bieng raised in a society that psychologically beats any emotional expression out of them. Theyre mad = controling/domineering/crazy. Theyre sad or complain about being abused, hurt etc = baby/wussy and many more. Gaslighting, the term used in this article, is applied by both sexes against their own sex, and the other. When journalists can finally write articles which shed light on both sides of equations instead of blamingone for all social and psychological ills, perhaps we will be on the way to healinginstead of applying salt to the wounds of one group whilst accusing the other. Log in to Reply
lesath
November 20, 2011 at 10:14 am #
I am a woman. When I can disagree with a woman about a matter of gender issues, such as this one, without her becoming hysterical and disbelieving (rather than arguing with me in a reasoned way), then I might accept the point you are trying to make. Log in to Reply
elfen_berzerker
November 5, 2011 at 1:09 pm #
Lets toss out a few examples from my life, all of which have taken place in the last 72 hours. Used the wrong knifecutting onions. I used an expensive knife instead of one of the cheap knives that we got at the dollar store. Her response? Elevated voice (to the point that the cats hid) and me being thrown out of the kitchen. Too much litter when I changed the cat box. She yelled at me about wasting the stockpile of litter (We only have six boxes left!!!!). The clerk at the gas station gave me king size cigarettes instead of 100s when I stopped to get her cigarettes on the way home from work. She threw them at me and told me to go get the right ones. My cell phone was turned off because I was in a doctors appointment with one of my clients. She tried calling to tell me she would be at her mothers when I got out but obviously couldnt get through. When I turn my phone back on after the appointment theres a dozen missed calls and several voice mails accusing me of having an affair. I beg someone to, with a straight face and not just being a troll, tell me that I am not justified when I respond to her by asking her if she is out of her ever loving mind or tell her to chill out in situations like these. Log in to Reply
cruztacean
November 9, 2011 at 9:03 am #
But the article is not about men who tell women theyre crazy and overemotional when theyre actually being crazy and overemotional. The article is about men who say hurtful, insensitive, verbally abusive things to a woman, and then when it hurts her, he tells her shes crazy and overemotional. My ex was a lot like that. He would deliberately work me up so that he COULD tell me I was crazy. If it didnt bother me, hed keep going until it did. As for your (wife? girlfriend? You didnt specify) it sounds like shes highly unstable. Shes the exception, not the rule, just like my ex is. Most men are like my normal, healthy, non-abusing *present* husband. Log in to Reply
yantu
She is not being oversensitive, crayzeee, or overly emotional. She is being an abusive and manipulative asshole. Thats the danger of using the wrong words, you do not realize the seriousness of it all. Crazykeeps being used for all sorts of casual purposes, and is passive. She is not doing anything the slightest bit passive, nor is this something you justhave to learn to suck up and take it like a man.
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Please realize you are being emotionally abused if this is a common occurrence for you, and that women are perpetrators of domestic violence too: meaning that if she starts getting violent with you, it IS domestic abuse. Its not oh those crazy women, its downright genuine abuse, by someone who happens to be female. Being abused by a female spouse does not mean you are any less of a man, and just because women often use tools when physically abusing their spouse does not mean its not as bad as someone who uses their fists, or any less real. Your partner badly needs therapy, as she currently promotes a heavily toxic relationship. Please consider leaving her and save yourself, or at the least insist on couple therapy if the relationship is not to end. Mental abuse is mental abuse, no matter if the source is male or female. You too deserve to be treated like a human being. Besides, most people use too little kitty litter, and clean it too seldom. Log in to Reply
ohwowreally
November 14, 2011 at 11:15 am #
Now, its entirely possible that this woman is simply one of those people who have not exerted the effort necessary to control their emotions like an adult. We all know men and women like that, who regardless of gender just need to grow up a bit and stop letting their gut reactions rule their behavior. Its also possible that she has a biochemical issue. I knew a guy who was incessantly irritable to the point of being kind-of-an-asshole, and eventually found out he had a gluten allergy and it was messing with his moods fiercely. Now gluten-free, hes so much more chill. But, in the interest of seizing upon a potential teaching moment: Perhaps she was not actually upset about the knife or the kitty litter. Perhaps she was upset because those are details she has asked you to be aware of repeatedly, and youre still not considering them. Maybe shes asked you a hundred times not to use her good cheese knife on the onions because it corrodes the metal, and you did it again anyway. Maybe when she pointed that out, you told her to chill out instead of acknowledging that she had made a request that you have once again flaunted, and maybe thats when her voice raised. Summary: She wasnt yelling about the knife. She was yelling because you are refusing to hear her (not obey, but listen and work together like a partner should), and when she tries again to be heard, you blow her off instead of listening. Maybe she told you at length a couple weeks ago that this favored brand of cat litter has been discontinued, so she bought all the boxes the CVS had, and asked you to be a little sparing when using it so you could make it last. Maybe you blew this off as trite or irrational, and so you didnt even think to actually be sparing as shed asked. Summary: She wasnt yelling about the litter. She was yelling about you, once again, dismissing her concerns and not hearing her. Maybe the fact that you didnt bother to correct the clerk and get her the cigarettes you know she smokes (King vs. 100s is a big difference to a smoker), showed her a total lack of concern on your part for noticing the details that are important to her. Summary: She wasnt yelling about the cigarettes. She was yelling about the fact that when doing something for her, you chose to only consider the details *you* thought were important, and ignored her wishes. Again, not hearing, dismissing her concerns. And maybe, amid an established pattern of her perceiving dismissiveness, lack of hearing, and lack of caring on your part, she has lost trust for you and your dedication to your mutual partnership. Maybe, in that vacuum of trust, many innocuous things can trigger a storm of fear and doubt. And, you know, maybe not. But hopefully this illustrates the fact that depriving vignettes of their context renders them skewed, potentially misleading, and ultimately useless to those of us reading what is, in fact, only your non-contextualized version of events. And maybe if none of these scenarios illuminate your situation, theyll give readers who see themselves in your vignettes fodder for thought. Very often what looks like crazyand overreactinglooks like that because you are not actually seeing the real problem: Its not the knife. Its the listening. Log in to Reply
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ManeMaster
Bravo@OhWowReally..for saying so eloquently what oftentimes is hard to say. In the heat of moment its tough to formulate the right words to not only defend yourself but also speak clearly without looking even crazier to your partner. Well said.. Log in to Reply
Famaroux
Thanks so much for this. excellent. Taken out of context we could think the woman in the story above is a garden variety bully ( and she might be). But yes we do need to hear her side about why she is so trigger happy and angry. Log in to Reply
Amykins
I made an account just to respond to this. Frankly, i think the response from Ohwowreallyis a bunch of bullplop. Even if she had told him that she prefers not to use the goodknife or to use too much litter, these requests in and of themselves are so trivial, that to get upset over it really is irrational. Berz, if I were you, I would get a divorce. I know it seems like I throw that work out casually; believe me that is far from the case. As a woman, I know Im sensitive, and damnit there is NOTHING wrong with that. :p Being engaged to a tender, sensitive, loving man who also happens to be built like an ox and teaches kung-fu, I like to think that sticking to my guns and not backing down from bullies about my emotional state has paid off. But I also know to listen when someone says that something I get mad about isnt worth getting mad about, you know? I stop, and think it over, and sometimes theyre right and I apologize, sometimes I feel justified and we continue discussing it. Sad that your wife chooses to shut you out and simply abuse you instead. Log in to Reply
ManeMaster
Amykins- I feel that your missing the point. When you choose to share your life with someone, what you feel is important should be considered as important to your partner. If I like to see the Tupperware stacked neatly and my husband wants to throw it in willy nilly, nothing is going to make me change how I want it stacked. How I react is more important than the Tupperware, I agree, and that is why I gave him a choice. Do it right or dont do it. Just like Buddha said, Believe nothingunless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Although he may feel that taking care to stack our Tupperware by size is trivial, I will never change my mind about how it should be done. Now, when he puts away the dishes he either does it by size or not at all. Works for me. Besides, as trivial as some of his pet peeves are, I go with it or let him do it his way. Log in to Reply
elfen_berzerker
My post was responded to in exactly the manner I had hoped. The idea of context was brought out. While none of Ohwows ideas for what MIGHT have happened are accurate (They really have knives just for cheese?) they did bring up the context of it. My post, while completely true, was intentionally lacking certain information that could shed light on the matter. Like the fact that every woman in my wifes family, from the youngest to the oldest, behaves exactly the same way and this behavior can be seen as somehow inherited. Even the ones that never spent time around other members of the family until they were adults react this way. Im wondering if there is something possibly genetic going on here. Oh and there isnt a single woman in this family that has not been divorced. Most have been divorced two or three times. The author of this article is touching on what could be a very good point but it is too hard, for me at
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least, to take it seriously. There is no differentiating between justified outbursts of anger and random freakouts. I know Im not the only one who has witnessed inappropriate outbursts of tears or anger over a miniscule problem (Not just my wife and not just women). The vagueness of this article takes a man that thinks being yelled at over a spilled glass of water is going too far and turns them into a villain. But this also brings about a very good point. Who decides what is justified? Ask the women in my wifes family and they would tell you that my wife is justified in yelling because I used too much litter. Why? Because. Others say shes not over emotional but abusive. Perspective. I never see yelling as justified unless youre trying to get someones attentionfrom across a field. And even then I have a hard time raising my voice. Log in to Reply
Granpa
You failed to mention a very important point in your article: Though there are a lot of guys that are inconsiderate, manipulative jerks, the truth is thats the kind of men women like. Thats the alpha male. If youre anything but, they will get bored with you. I learned that a while ago. In that sense, women are indeed crazy. Everyone likes to be treated nicely, except for women, you also have to be an a jerk, to keep them around. Log in to Reply
cruztacean
Please dont say ALL women want insensitive jerks. I dont. Log in to Reply
Cauldroness
I am really, really sick of hearing The Nice Guy Rant. Memo: Youre not nice at all. Heres the nice guy: hes interested in a woman whos not romantically or sexually interested in him. Alternately, hes interested in a woman but doesnt have the courage to approach her, or believes if he did approach her, she would reject him. So he becomes her friendbecause he expects that after some period of supposed friendship,a romantic and/or sexual relationship will occur. Although real friends give their friendship freely, and expect only friendship in return, his friendshipcomes with strings attached (but he never tells his supposed friend about these strings, of course). He assumes that by accepting his friendship,shes also whole-heartedly accepted these strings (despite never being told about them). The fact is, the nice guyfriend expects romantic dating and/or sex as paymentfor his friendship. After all, hes been there for her, comforted her after her last break-up, listened to her complain about her asshole boyfriend, picked her up that time her car broke down/she was too drunk to drive/she got off at the wrong bus stop, etc. Hes been so selfless,he deserves heck, he is OWED something in return, right? Never mind he doesnt hold any of his male friends to this standard. Never mind he did not do those things out of the sheer goodness of his heart, but because he expected some kind of romantic or sexual reciprocity. Never mind he never told her that he expected paymentin return for these acts of friendship,and maybe she would have never accepted his friendshipin the first place if shed known that. And never mind she was probably never interested in him romantically and/or sexually in the first place. And then, when she doesnt date and/or sleep with him, or when she dates him out of pity or guilt but gets boredwith him, because (AGAIN) she was never interested in him in the first place, the nice guyreveals his true face: hes not nice at all. He rants about how girls only date those inconsiderate, manipulative jerks.He insults women. He becomes who he really is, who he was the whole time: a jerk. A disingenuous, manipulative, passive-aggressive, bitter jerk. And THAT is why women dont date the nice guy.
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elfen_berzerker
wow. Justfreakingwow. At the risk of seeming to gaslight youbut is it really necessary to take out your frustrations on someone that just stated what pretty much everyone, male and female, repeats over and over again? Youve probably accused yourself of always being attracted to assholes. If you havent then Im almost certain youve had friends that say it. No matter what the modern woman tells herself, genetics will still pull her towards males that have Alpha characteristics. Ask yourself this; When is the last time you were drawn to a frail, timid guy with no job? Log in to Reply
Yonmei
Whenever an article like this is posted, its amazing how men who can provide illustrative examples of the kind of behaviour this describes, just show up to provide them. Odder yet, they never seem to realise that they are demonstrating the exact behaviour described for the benefit of anyone who reads the article and might think the author is exaggerating a bit. Log in to Reply
jonesy
A little over two and a half years ago. Okay, maybe he wasnt frail. He was shy and sensitive, thoughtful, considerate, introspective- and I loved it. He didnt have a full-time job until about six months into our relationship. By then he had created a weidentity for us and I had already decided I was gonna marry him when he asked- something we talked about constantly. He needed my help to get and keep the job, so I got behind my man and invested in our future. Once he started working full time his feelings got buttoned down and his sensitivity was gradually lost- hes become an antagonistic, manipulative, disrespectful prick who wont own up to our agreements. Hes been gaslighting me, like serious terror. One example is: I have been receiving emails from him, while hes at work, designed to shock and provoke me. Some have caused me to shut down completely. When I tell him I m upset and ask him to not send this type of content- he minimizes my feelings, tells me to calm down, that Im too sensitive, that I have no sense of humor, that he cant even joke with me, and sends even more of this variety. Now, though I seem to have ended up with one, I dont think for one minute that I am attracted to assholes. Theres nothing attractive about someone working this hard to keep me vulnerable and off-balance. Its sick. Log in to Reply
ten
December 16, 2011 at 10:58 am #
Last week was my one year anniversary with my boyfriend who is perhaps not quite frail, but is probably the second physically weakest person I know, who has issues with anxiey and insecurity, and who has been unemployed the whole time Ive know him. Hes geeky, talented, dedicated, loving, funny (according to my weird ass sense of humour, anyway), compassionate, unintimidated by how unrepentantly dirty I can be, capable of holding a discussion about feminism with me without feeling intimidated or putting me down, and he loves spicy food. Now kindly stop assuming you can tell what sort of thing Im attracted to based on whats between my legs. Log in to Reply
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Sanae
January 2, 2012 at 3:45 pm #
Oh please. Because if a guy is strong and confident with a jobhe is automatically a jerk? What kind cartoons do you watch? Alpha characteristicsequal the characteristics of a leader and a insensitive, manipulative jerk cannot be a leader. Thus he does not have Alpha characteristics. Thus your claim that women are attracted to jerks because it is in their genetics to be attracted an Alpha male is contradictory. But, furthermore, your argument was baseless anyway because some women want to actually wear the pants in the relationship and thus dont care for those Alpha characteristicsyou speak of. Log in to Reply
JPM
Thats a curious sentiment. Ive been dating the sexiest woman I know for the past few years. I wooed her by doing volunteer work with her. I dont play any sports, spend most of my day on my computer, and am a huge fan of Star Trek (Ive got a Next Generation uniform hanging in my closet right now). Seems we kids have a funny definition for the manipulative alpha-male in this brave new world of ours. Log in to Reply
fullmetalguitar
Maybe youre the one who has a problem with only liking assholes. Eh? Am I blowing your mind yet? Huh? Its true, maybe you are just really bad at falling for nice people. Maybe, just maybe, you are the one with the problem. I also cant help but notice that you sound bitter and resentful about your past romantic failures, which I will tell you is likely also what makes you unattractive to your partners. Your willingness to generalize the behavior of some women as the behavior of all women is also a likely cause. I would also like to say that I have been involved with people who were jerks, and that I currently am not. Right now I am with a guy who thinks Im what makes the sun rise, who spoils me and is happy when Im happy. Ive had a long day and Im exhausted? The second I walk in the door hes taken off my coat, taken off my boots, offered me a snack/tea, led me over to the couch, and put a blanket on me (true story). I plan to marry him someday. But wait, hes not acting like a jerk, so why the hell am I not bored with him? Is this secret manipulation? Will I find out one day this is all a master plan? Because the only other answer would be that you sir, are just jaded and incorrect. And now I will take this even further, and share with you why someone women date jerks. Why I myself have dated them in the past. And its not just because were crazy women. First of all, they almost never start off jerks, or seem like jerks. They become that way. And we have been taught that if we love a person, we, as women, need to put up with all their emotionally abusive shit. Women have been raised to keep their complaints quiet, to carry peoples emotional burdens, to be the comforters and the fixers. Especially fixers. Theyre not like WOW I LOVE THIS GUY BECAUSE HES SO ALPHA, thats just a really ridiculous excuse you made up because someone did not love you back and you just couldnt understand why. Women have just been trained to accept really shitty behavior as okay. And thats not okay. Log in to Reply
Gaeamethod
January 12, 2012 at 4:49 pm #
Alpha male and asshole are not synonymous. I would call my husband an alpha male; hes a self starter, enthusiastic, persuasive, business minded, smart as a whip, well-dressed, 68andtoughas nails. That whole package comes with a man who would NEVER mistreat me intentionally. He listens to me. He asks me what Im feeling and thinking. He supports me in whatever I do and drives me to be better than I was yesterday. Log in to Reply
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Beatnik Betty
October 6, 2011 at 5:57 pm #
Just a gigantic Thank Youfor writing and posting this article. Log in to Reply
womenAREfat
This is completely bullshyt. Women are crazy and if they stopped watching tv all day and bitching and learned things like going to the gym and cooking, the world would be a better place. peace love and dont forget to workout, obesity is a killer.but being single is a consequence Log in to Reply
cruztacean
So how come Im plus-sized and married? To a decent, middle-class man with a steady career, not some drunk, foulmouthed, trailer-trash slob. Log in to Reply
JPM
No worries Cruztacean, this is just a troll. He doesnt actually believe what hes saying, hes just fishing for negative reactions. Log in to Reply
mizzquagmire
January 8, 2012 at 3:14 pm #
meh Log in to Reply
Dormouse
October 5, 2011 at 6:08 pm #
Finally, I have a way of explaining my boyfriend from college! He was all about this gaslighting business. Key example: he had told me all about his dirty little secrets from past relationships, including how he cheated on one of his past girlfriends with another girla girl was still a close friend of the family. Then he went home for summer break between our sophomore and junior years and told me he had a GREAT idea to go on a kayaking/camping trip with this girl. Just the two of them. In the great outdoors. No one around. Alone. Overnight. Of course, I flipped out. (I mean, who does that???) And he said that I was overreacting, that I was being emotional, etc., etc., etc. Although it never worked outfor them to take the trip, he never apologized for putting me through that emotional roller coaster, and I was stupid enough to stay with him for another six months. And then, after we broke up, I accused him of being emotionally abusive/manipulative and the women in his family called me crazy. Yep, there is definitely a problem in American culture. Log in to Reply
SpiffyMaster
October 5, 2011 at 12:20 am #
Its hard to come across a troll who has at least minor intelligence. Bravo Ms. Daisy Cutter, bravo. Log in to Reply
justinpoet
October 4, 2011 at 11:02 am #
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I have lived with this behavior all my life it is hard to imagine anything other life. As a man who is too sensitiveI am like an alien lifeform upon this Earth. I jokingly comment that relatives came from Roswell. Its as much admission that I am different as it is a separation from my own family who thinks that my brother who abused me growing up should be put in control of my life. I am too sensitive to live my own life. My marriages have all gone terribly wrong. Even now, with How can you be so stupid not to realize I am joking. You are too sensitive.And that was from last night. I hear variations daily: sometimes dozens of times daily. I have lost track of how often I hear it. She even buys me power-tools and demands I use them around the house to fend off my phobia of power-tools which is ridiculous. Sometimes I am not even malein her eyes. I need to start acting more like a guy, grow up, be strong, be less stupid. Log in to Reply
yantu
Eh, your last line is dubious. It is very true that you need to not accept gaslighting and cut ties with people who do this sort of shit when possible, but to become emotionally stunted (which is what I associate with the stereotype of manliness) is not the key. Just work on gaining more self-respect for your boundaries and less patient when people trample all over you and take advantage of you. Log in to Reply
sweetsue
September 23, 2011 at 10:21 pm #
I tried reading many commentsbut there are just too many. I would like to say that, when I first read this article, my jaw dropped. Because this has happened to me SO many times. Mostly by men. BUT, the first, most powerful instance that immediately sprung to mind involved a female friend. She had invited a former college classmate (male) on a long road trip who had once tried to, basically, rape me. He didnt succeed, but I told my friends about the incident after it happened, so theyd A) Know to steer clear of him, and B) Understand why I didnt want him around. Years later, this road trip happened. When I confronted her to express my disbelief/concern, she told me I was being too sensitive, needed to get over it, and that perhaps this was a way to heal & deal. I stood there in her kitchen listening to this, and though my gut was screaming What the hell???!!! WHO ARE YOU? Whose side are you on?, I was gaslit (is that the correct past-tense?). And I actually left feeling like I was wrong for feeling repulsed by the nothing of spending 8 hours in a car with my attacker. So, my point, is: yes, it happens to men and to women. And probably more so to women. But also to women BY women. I read an article years ago about jury selection for court case, where, if a man is the defendant and a woman is the plaintiff, the defense attorneys try to have more women on the jury than men because women are harsher judges toward other women, and more likely to side with a man. I m not saying ALL women are this waybut we have to be careful. You are entitled to your feelings. Its best to say how you feel or what you want, without commenting on the other persons behavior. Leave it to them to either acknowledge and accept your legitimate feelings, or not. Then you know the lay of the land. Someone who cares for you will care about your feelings. Whether you or they are male or female. Log in to Reply
womenAREfat
This is completely bullshyt. Women are crazy and if they stopped watching tv all day and bitching and learned things like going to the gym and cooking, the world would be a better place. peace love and dont forget to workout, obesity is a killer.but being single is a consequence!!! Log in to Reply
Valus
Its not about women. Its about sensitivity. As a man who exhibits sensitivity on a regular basis, Ive been subject to gaslighting my whole life. The
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people who do it most, in my experience, are not primarily identified by their gender, but by their lack of sensitivity. Likewise, the people who suffer it are not primarily identified by their gender, but by their sensitivity. To an insensitive person, every insensitive remark is just a joke. A meanspirited attack is a premise, and your hurt feelings are the punchline. Anything remotely refined or poetic is promptly labelled pretentious and met with some degrading remark, intended to clear the airby dragging the tone of the moment back down into the gutter where Mr. or Mrs. Insensitive Brute sincerely believes it belongs. If you object that such remarks are out of place, well, you just dont get the joke. :/ I want to make clear that this phenomenon is less about the devaluing of women than it is about the devaluing of traits which have been traditionally associated with women, or the feminine. That may sound like hair-splitting, but its actually a very important distinction, as it draws attention to how society views particular traits (in this case, sensitivity), rather than how society views women; which is far more arbitrary, as it deals with a law of averages (i.e. on average, more women exhibit these traits than men). Here, we can deal with the concrete reality of what exactly is being stigmatized, rather than focusing on the average womanand thereby reinforcing the prejudices we claim to abhor. Once we understand that the traits are what is being stigmatized, whether they exist in men or in women, we might be ready to consider the possibility that AN EVEN GREATER STIGMA IS APPLIED TO MEN WHO EXHIBIT THESE TRAITS than to women, since women are traditionally expected to exhibit them. People will say to a woman, be cool, but to a man theyll say be a man. People will say to a woman,calm down, but to a man theyll say grow up. A woman is likely to be told she is overreacting when she shows that she is hurt, whereas a man may be told this when he barely expresses any discomfort at all. Consequently, men rarely express their sensitivity, not necessarily because they do not possess it, but because they are not expected to. Womens sensitivity is suppressed, definitely, but mens sensitivity is suppressed to the point where many of us barely express it at all. IF women are more often the subjects of gaslighting, it may only be because they are expressing their sensitivity, while the men dont dare to express their sensitivity at all. In both cases, there is suppression, but, in the former case it is overt, while in the latter case it is less obvious, yet even more effective, and far more insidious. Seeing it this way is less divisive and more realistic. Log in to Reply
TroyB3
Thank you so much. I feel attacked just being a guy and reading this. NOTHING is easier to laugh at than a guy who has feelings in our culture, and guys with feelings are the hurt females NUMBER ONE ALLY yet we are the first people to get laughed at and mocked. :) Not on a soapbox here, but I think kitties are cute, sunsets are pretty, and that is the same as liking little dollies to so many people. Log in to Reply
flux
I want to make clear that this phenomenon is less about the devaluing of women than it is about the devaluing of traits which have been traditionally associated with women, or the feminine. That may sound like hair-splitting No, its not hair splitting and I agree with you on that point, but going on to negate that men go on to use those tactics against women undermines the point Yashar is trying to make. What many seem to be missing is by using emotionality as a way to dismiss what a women is saying takes away any power she may have which shifts the responsibility from actually addressing the issue to one about whos feelings are right with the women always losing.* Take the Abbie example where her boss leaves her floundering to figure out what it is she is doing wrong so that she wont repeat the same mistake. Her boss should be telling her what she is doing wrong since thats part of what his job entails, or pass it on to the person who can tell her. Instead, what he does leaves her feeling guilty and confused because she wants to do a good job, but has no clue how to rectify the problem because he wont tell her. He otoh, skirts responsibility in refusing to show her how to do something correctly by making it all about her reaction to his broad criticism. Its a catch 22 probably rooted in the sexist idea women cant take criticism. If I were Abbie Id ask the boss precisely what I was
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doing wrong (action oriented) vs. telling his criticism isnt helpful (shame based) if she hasnt already, but he may be one of those bosses who uses this tactic intentionally to keep everyone walking on eggshells as a way to exert power. But going on to describe what suppressing emotion is like for a guy and how that is somehow more egregious than when is done to a women? Youre missing the point; men take the tactics used on them then go on to use them on women. Women in turn suppress their emotions, we just suppress different feelings like anger and aggression. *Theres a quote from a famous playwright Nathaniel Lee that comes to mind: They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me. Log in to Reply
dennisrodmanlovesyou
The issue of gaslightingis clearly not a strictly male/female relationship. It IS, however, strictly institutionalized in that realm. I think to attempt to wash the issue as genderless is to refuse recognition of the institutional status of gas lighting and the fact that we as men are able to get away with it if we so choose. I have been on the receiving end of gaslighting. Ive noticed it and as a result I made a conscious effort to not propagate that in the future. Im sure I still do it, though maybe less than others, but the difference is in the perception based on it. Other men I talk to, routinely make statements about women being overly emotional, unpredictable and unexplainable. They say it when women arnt around, as though I am supposed to readily acknowledge how correct they are (kinda like when white people make racist jokes assuming everybody around them is white, so its alright). My inability to agree with them will commonly attach feminine characteristics to my perceived personality. It makes me feminine to be sensitive about other peoples feelings. However if I was to agree with them I would fit on the boat, unrocked. If I were to provoke that conversation I might even be endeared as a person who gets them. Women dont seem to have that luxury as a vast amount of both men and women perceive overly emotional outbursts as being feminine and yet resent when women make unemotional coherent arguments. There seems to be one safe road and that is submission and an ability to simply keep their mouth shut. Though its clearly not positive, I understand when people like daisy make cracks about manpain and the like. Its hard as men to be emotional but not in the same way that it is for women because if we so choose we could shift our deck and fit in with the crowd. Its called privilege and its eomthing we should all be aware of. Log in to Reply
BSup
September 21, 2011 at 7:28 am #
A Message To Women from a Woman: All the womenon here like Ms Daisy and Howitzer who continuously bash men/women for legitimate comments and take this women are holier than thou attitude. This article is NOT for you because you ARE Crazy, sensitive, over-reactors, melodramatic, over dramatic, bullies and gaslighters. Have women been oppressed? Yes. Have men typically been the culprits? Yes. Can it go the other way? Yes. But womenlike you are the reason women have a bad name and looked upon like this. Womenlike you, use feminism and articles like this as a self serving platform to spew your hatred for men because you looking in the mirror is too damn hard. How dare you claim to be fighting for women and yet use a forum like this to act in such a manner. You are using the tactics described in this article against men who have suffered the same. Were women oppressed, Absolutely but dont you DARE say you are fighting for my cause with language and behavior like that! If you continue, I will be more than happy to deal with men who do wrong and know it, than women who do wrong but say it is in the cause of right. That my female friends, is gender terrorism. Log in to Reply
sketchysk8er
Damn straight BSup! You said it all. Log in to Reply
Ms. Daisy Cutter

http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ Page 16 / 24
Waaah. Please to be learning the difference between man bashingand not putting up with shit from men who think their pee-pees entitle them to dominate the conversation. Log in to Reply
TroyB3
I just think that people who dwell on negativity attached to entire demographics like red hair or manor skin colorshould wake up and smell the ugliness of systematic demographic rejection. Why couch yourself in the terms of the bigot if you arent playing the bigots game? Log in to Reply
K of the T
My comment apparently got moderated, so let me just sayboo to collaborators, and Ms Daisy and Howitzer are my heroes! Log in to Reply
sketchysk8er
I have commited and been the victim of this. I will say yes, its probably men doing it (much) more than women. But I read ALL of the comments below to get a better idea of what other people think before I came to my own opinion. First, is this epidemic more serious than young boys who are taught to push down emotion very early on? I was raised by a single mother, how was it instilled in me? Society in general? There is an obvious gap but could it be defined as women = over emotional or men = under emotional? Second, to contradict my first point. Should we treat this as a problem of people or sex? Would it be right for the president to only address black unemployment rather than unemployment in general just because it has the largest rate? I am glad a name has been put to this as it is a good first step to helping bring awareness to it but I think this article should be used inspire more questions and not be used as a scapegoat. The truth is some PEOPLE are over emotional and some are under. Log in to Reply
jeffreyjames
I think this article is taking a scenario dependent and gender-neutral problem concerning human interaction and turning it into a feminist issue. Picture a mean boss that does this gaslighting business. Do you picture man that only does this to females? If you do I think you have a warped perception (in my humble and probably offensive to some opinion). People that love that their position of power and get their jollies by the abuse of others do indeed use tactics like this to make others feel wrong about objecting to his/her poor treatment. Its a power issue not a gender issue. if the person that is in power is a man that disrespects women then it becomes a gender issue. Meaning yes, there exists a man that is exclusively degrading to women, but there exists an chauvinistic ass hole somewhere in the worldis not the point this article is trying to make. Let me respond to the obvious retort: but men are in more positions of power because they have oppressed women into submission over the years. I so totally agree, and that is a horrible rotten thing but that is not a reason to make this a gender issue. Just think for a moment how pathetic it is to basically say but men are/were mean to us so we get to have this issue.While I can appreciate the desire to focus on the gender where we can suppose it happens more often, it is not helpful in coming up with the most effective prognosis. its a feminist issue: you can do it to men, not women its a human issue: dont do it if men think I cant treat anyone that waythey will work on ejecting the very notion out of their head, Hopefully to never be seen by anyone again. If they feel that they need to be sensitive towards women
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because the feminist movement says so then theyll live in this dichotomy and poor behavior might cross over because its permissible in one area of their interaction with others and not in another area. Treating this (and many other things) like a feminist issue is self-defeating because it doesnt make men better as people it makes them cater to feminisms self interested role definition. In accordance with this, all than men can aspire to be is based on feminisms well being when it should be mutual (note intentional use of feminismsinstead of womens). Though this sounds like sweet tasty revenge on paper, in the long run it is the world being full of better people that will serve womankind the best. *Reading some comments* OK, have women been treated discriminatory throughout history? Yep. Does that mean now every issue has to be weighted to be more exclusive to women as some sort of penance for the sins of men? please dont take away my hope for feminisms future and say yes to that. I love the concept of feminism but I think the movement suffers from group conflict issues. I feel that in a very short amount of time you can go from curious about feminism to kill all the men unless they kiss their S.C.U.M. manifesto every night and worship the ground we walk on. I have yet to decide but some days I think the entire movement is based on hatred and inequality (and i mean the notion that men are/should be worth less than women). back to the subject at hand you could write the same article without any gender finger-pointing and it would sound just as valid and complete. Its written like propaganda. There are two suppositions that set the stage and arent presented as fact: this is a feminist issue. this is bad. Personally, I do not think this is a feminist issue, and it is not always bad. Ive overreacted and have been told Im overreacting and thought yeah, Im a bit more pissed of than I should be.I wasnt offended. I didnt feel my voice was silenced or like I didnt have to right to speak up about something in the future. I honestly am grateful when I have the opportunity to evaluate myself in the moment because someone told me to look in the mirror for a second. I realize Im a bit more cool headed (sometimes) than other people but I also think that toughen uptraining would do immeasurably more good for society than sensitivity training. imagine a world where people didnt take this personally. that doesnt sound better than a world where we learn how to deal with people who take things personally and have no idea how personally people are going to take things? I know it cant happen but what if it was important to us to teach people that we can be mature adults that talk about things in a civil manner or immature and not worth even considering, let alone be offended by. if I called someone sensitive for being offended by something I said that IS offensive and their reaction was akin to because of youre behavior you mean less than nothing to me and I have absolutely no respect for you has a human beingwellI just might stop calling people stupid because Im ashamed of myself and want to co-exist with people that value being treated well. I dont want to get any more preachy here, but I just dont think anticipating and evaluating what is offensive to whom and how offensive is it to them is effective. Humans cannot jump into each others skin and glean a perfect copy of anothers outlook. It is the offended that need to stick up for themselves, and not let themselves be gaslighted. solution 1: everyone in the world needs to stop telling me Im sensitive when Im offended so my voice isnt silenced. solution 2: I need to persist and be strong when Im offended by something and not let the offending party derail me by saying Im being too sensitive. which one seems more viable? call me crazy but I think the most effective way to fight is to fight. at best this article is cozy but idealistic. everyone will stop being dicks if we tell them to stopis the cozy, they will listenis the idealistic. Log in to Reply
jeffreyjames
forgive my typos. Corrections: [...] all THAT men can aspire to [...] There are two suppositions that set the stage and ARE presented LIKE facts: Log in to Reply
jeffreyjames
yeah, I think real feminism is about equality and then theres step 1. synthesize sperm. step 2:
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kill all men. which is more like an attitude of faux justified revenge on the male species. shoot Im going to be banned cause I said faux Log in to Reply
MikeFromCanada
This is a really good post. I would tread carefully when posting this kind of stuff on feminist issues. (Although I dont, I enjoy debates) I have been banned from blogs when Ive pointed stuff like this out. It doesnt matter how sincere or sensible you write it, some feminists will say, You are privileged male, you just dont get it. Log in to Reply
Howitzer
Its not a gender-neutral problem, men do it so much more than women, that its woven into the fabric of society. Its not scenario-dependant, because that kind of sick manipulation is never okay. You said Do you picture man that only does this to females?No, I picture a man who regularly does this every single day to every single female, and doesnt even know what hes doing is bad, he thinks hes convincing her to shut up and listen to his logic. And thats not just a serial-killer type of thing, either. It seems like every single man tries to do it at some point. EVEN YOU!!! If you do I think you have a warped perception (in my humble and probably offensive to some opinion)YOU SAID THAT. First you popped off a straw-man fallacy, then you GASLIGHTED FEMINISTS. Evil evil little man. Shame on you. Log in to Reply
dubbzee
Youre the brand of feminist that gives other feminists a bad wrap. I am a 22 year-old male, recent university graduate, and am very much interested in feminism. FROM A YOUNG MANS STANDPOINT: stop with your harsh words and out bursts. This is the internet. If I was AT ALL interested, perhaps Id lookoh, I dont knowanywhere else pretty much. My point being that you are going to end up pushing away more potential male feminists because YOUR pride is in the way. Get over yourself as a realized feminist and educate others instead of putting them down. Revenge on the male gender wont send a million DEAD men to prison for the acts they committed. Think BEFORE you think. Log in to Reply
unitled
As a young, educated male in your position, youre going to find it hard at first to see past your priviledge and get to grips with feminist issues. From a male, can I please give you one piece of advice, one which has had many, many articles written on it? SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Howitzer is refuting the unfortunately common argument that hey, but women do it too! Check any article on the concept of Mansplaining for more examples of this. Please listen to what he/she has to say, about how men do this more than women because of how society is set up. After some time (and not very much time, I would add) reading feminist articles and blogs you will see how sickeningly true this is. Log in to Reply
dubbzee
Advice taken. Duly ignored.
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Explanation: Does anyone on here really actually give a (insert expletive) about the words written in responses/critiques? Or is it that keywords(flint) and opinions(steel) are the only things making their way into the liberalminds online? Point: Your SHUT UP AND LISTENtechnique has so many holes/flaws that you could prospect for gold with it. Evidence: refuting a common argument A common argument is common. Why is it common? Most people are familiar with it. check any on the concept of Mansplaining Why else would I be on this blog? Please listen to what he or she has to say I listened, and gave a rebuttal. Much like she did. Not a single soul said (insert expletive)ing anything about Howitzers uncalled for posts. how sickeningly true this is If I wasnt interested/aware/concerned/WANTING TO BE MORE INFORMED, then why would I even read here? I d like to point out here at the end of all of this that if you reread the reply I gave to Howitzer, youll notice how many of her FACTS AND TRUTHS I tried to dispute. Zero. Final point being that if you really want to impact someone, then do it. Dont bible thumpfeminist teachings in to someones head. I honestly didnt think it would take 2 posts to determine that intention.
Ms. Daisy Cutter

Youre the brand of feminist that gives other feminists a bad wrap. Its rap,Dubbzee, not wrap.And, no, Howitzer is the brand of feminist who separates the people who are actually interested in gender equality from the privileged whingers who want to pretend theyre interested in gender equality. I am a 22 year-old male, recent university graduate, And so youre going to proceed to lecture and mansplain to women, many of whom are much older than you are, on how to dofeminism right. And the main criterion? That we dont alienate teh poor, poor menz and hurt deir dewicate widdle fee-fees. Society, in particular the media and hte internet, constantly inundate us with a young mans standpoint.I really give a fuck about how your entitled, privilege self perceives me or anyone else like me. And if harsh wordsis all it takes to drive you away, then you werent my allyto start with, and I dont give a flying fuck what you claim you are. Log in to Reply
Ms. Daisy Cutter

I forgot to close the italics tag, but it should be obvious what part is my comment and what part is whining from yet another privileged entitlefuck who thinks he gets to tell women the way we should fight for our rights (i.e., in a way that never, ever makes him feel bad).
dubbzee
THANK (higher power). 1) Now Ill never forget to press the W. Its funny, both of the people who responded to me have directly attacked me for being
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a specific demographic 2) I didnt have to point out your subtle forgetting of italics tag. (bad troll is bad Quote: I really give a fuck about how your entitled, privilege self perceives me or anyone else like me. And if harsh wordsis all it takes to drive you away, then you werent my allyto start with, and I dont give a flying fuck what you claim you are. =]! This is such a good day for feminism! I offer an alternative point of view in a literal IDENTICAL manner, and I am the mansplaining gaslighter. I m glad that you are making me out to be an example of something WORSE that your average chauvinist. Let ME go ahead and DO WHAT YOU WANT ME TO.. and (possibly) BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT ME TO. Truth is, if you want to go throwing around quotations, 1337speek and claims of UNACHIEVABLE KNOWLEDGE, maybe you should teach intro. at the nearest university. Kids there eat that stuff up. Fact: not every individual who goes to college is privileged. The first of my family, coming from meager means of a 2-bedroom home for 5 people, paying my own loans and earning my own keep. Paid for my own car and lived on my own since 17. Im 75k+ in debt, with no income but MY JOB. Now the question: What on (Diety)s green internet gives you the SLIGHTEST notion that you have any grasp on who the other people pushing little black squares, sat in front of a screen are. Whining for the sake of whining is whining. Always has been, always will be. The internet makes you a wealth of wit, humor and insult. If harsh wordsare all you have, how can you say youre surprised when people turn away from being your ally. You can parade around with your nose in the air pretending you are what you are, or look people in their eyes and tell them, and tell them why. (Try to avoid the unnecessary male-bashing parts.) In close: flame me for being a bad feministand not for being a man. DOES NO ONE UNDERSTAND WHAT IM SAYING ON THIS ENTIRE SITE?
Theonepong
October 7, 2011 at 11:03 am #
Is cursing [I]really[/I] going to help you get your point across more effectively? I find that cursing makes people seem as if they have no other [I]real[/I] evidence to back up their own claims and is just an attack on the character of the party you argue against which, looked at objectively, provides nothing substantial.
jeffreyjames
Actually I did not because I was not addressing feminists. I was addressing anyone reading what I wrote. you actually proved my point in thinking I was gaslighting feminists. Besides that sharing ones actual opinion is not gaslighting. It was not a tactic or maniuplation attempt. I really honestly have the option that if any human believes that, their perception of man/womankind is warped. I think youre confused as to the definition. Gaslighting is not just just anything you dont like or merely being a man and opening your mouth. It must be in your plan to simply annihilate the entire male part of the species because you obviously have no desire to have us interested in actual feminism. Log in to Reply
asdf
It doesnt seem like its always a bad thing to tell someone you are overreacting. Of course
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people overreact at times. Its bad when this is done in order to manipulate the other person. To make them feel like they, or their feelings, dont matter. Jeffreyjames, the example you gave in which you appreciated being told you were overreacting does sound like a good thing. But only because the person helped shed some truth on your behavior. I dont think it was actually an example of gaslighting, which involves the intention to silence and deflect blameto cloud truth. With its full meaning, how can gaslighting ever be ok? I appreciate your pointstand up for yourself. Dont rely on others to fight your battles. But that doesnt conflict with bringing awareness to the consequences of gaslighting for women. Log in to Reply
Howitzer
>Just think for a moment how pathetic it is to basically say but men are/were mean to us so we get to have this issue.While I can appreciate the desire to focus on the gender where we can suppose it happens more often, it is not helpful in coming up with the most effective prognosis. Okay buddy, the author said that men are and were repeatedly mean to women in this very specific manifestation, and they needed to stop it because it wasnt fair. Thats it. The most frequent pattern of gaslighting, both throughout history and current day? Men gaslighting women. Its an epidemic. Can women gaslight too? Yes, they human. Do they? Hardly ever. Scum manifesto? Nobody takes it seriously. Revenge on male species? No, feminists like lots and lots of men, who see womens complaints as righteous indignation, not the ravings of a hated lunatic. Log in to Reply
MikeFromCanada
You need to take a look at this. http://i.imgur.com/OGt9y.jpg I call this the debate pyramid. I would think that anyone who wants to address certain points, or disagree with someone, should strive to be making comments that reflect the top portions of the pyramid. And frankly, shouting straw man at people who argue with you is hardly effective. And if anyone looks close enough, they can usually find a straw man in almost every argument. Log in to Reply
Howitzer
..I see now that my posts will not penetrate. May I repeat, No, I picture a man who ..doesnt even know what hes doing is bad, he thinks hes convincing her to shut up and listen to his logic. Log in to Reply
lourali
It is really quite sad to see that there are still individuals out in the world that feel that feminism means to at any opportunity treat men as though they are scum. Females are not betterthan males, just as males are notbetterthan females. We are equal and both genders have their own strengths and flaws which is why both are necessary in our survival. The comment that suggests that this is an epidemicis simply ridiculous. Although what this article outlines is correct, I would also agree that this technique is used by females towards other females as much as males use this towards females. I for one am very excited that there are males that are willing to have a look at issues such as this and take a positive action to ensure these are resolved in the near future.
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You (howitzer & followers) have not contributed any information that is useful or supportiveso keep your sexist opinions to yourself and come back when you have realised that the world doesnt owe you anything (eg, woe is me). Ps. Because it seems important whether I am male or female to have these opinions I will let you know that I am of course a female. I have gone to university and completed a dual degree and yes I got there myself. Oh and yes I did grow up in a family that valued equality and respect of both genders.
jeffreyjames
can you qualify hardly ever?No, you cant. I dont actually believe it happens more to women. It is out of the fact that no one can be certain that I am willing to go with the articles assertion. Even if it happens more to women, I believe it must a negligible difference. Even still. no one can know these types of things. Its like that urban legend statisticthat we all swallow 4 spiders per year in our sleep. how do they come up with that? do they record thousands of people sleeping every night for a year and count? This is an emotional appeal to feminists. Please note that Im not targeting women when I say feministsand half my male friends are feminists. I even consider myself a feminist enthusiast. I cant quite get serious about it because of the amount of women should govern men like cattlefeminists I run into. Feminaziis kind of an offensive term even to my ears, but both ideas are at play with many feminists I meet so its sadly fitting. I wish there was a term for feminists who had no interest in equality Then I could be a feminist. Addressing it as a womens issue doesnt fix the problem as well as addressing it as a human being issue. I think that idea captures the sprit of feminism more than a unverifiable statistic and a call to action that eludes to special treatment instead of equal treatment. Is the feminist movement that desperate to have issues that it feels the need to take genderless human behavior issues and try to put the feminist stamp on them? I say NO! There are plenty of issues that are very specific to women. I must again stress this point: Treating things like this as womens issues offers a very poor solution. Men should treat people equally and should not treat women better than other men. Men and women alike should stop gaslighting. Feminism is about equality not revenge/control/rage/etc. Treating it as something EVERY HUMAN BEING should stop doing is a very good one. Equality good. Inequality bad. if women get treated better than men then this whole thing starts again in 500 years and men will realize theyve been oppressed by women and well take the power back and keep it for 1,500 years because our muscles are bigger. Log in to Reply
jeffreyjames
P.S. that last sentence was a joke. Dont crucify me for that I m sure youll easily find something else. Log in to Reply
Ms. Daisy Cutter

I dont actually believe it happens more to women. And youre the one with the penis, so your belief,which is all it is, is supposed to be accepted here as the correct one, right? Even if it happens more to women, I believe it must a negligible difference. Even still. no one can know these types of things. Argument by assertion. Wait, not even that. Youre still qualifying it with beliefand claiming no one can know these types of things. This is an emotional appeal to feminists. Please note that Im not targeting women when I say feministsand half my male friends are feminists. I even consider myself a feminist enthusiast. I cant quite get serious about it because of the amount of women should
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govern men like cattlefeminists I run into. Feminaziis kind of an offensive term even to my ears, but both ideas are at play with many feminists I meet so its sadly fitting. I wish there was a term for feminists who had no interest in equality Then I could be a feminist. In other words, you approve of feminism only if it caters to your ickle fee-fees and never makes you question the privilege you unjustly enjoy in this world. Feminists have to be polite and use the right tone with you, or youre going to take your ball and go home and not contribute what Im sure would be your immense support to the cause of gender equality. Heres a clue, Jeffy: we dont need you. Log in to Reply
ohwowreally
November 14, 2011 at 10:31 am #
For the love of god, stop demeaning a human beings right to be sensitive by derogatorily referring to sensitivity as ickle fee-fees.Youve done this repeatedly, and it is revolting. It is not ok when a man sneers at a woman for expressing sensitivity, it is NOT OK FOR YOU TO DO IT EITHER. Do you not see that by doing that, not only are you acting like a cruel person without a solid argument (who then must take nasty swipes to make up for it), but you are also playing right into the terrible gender stereotypes that feminists have been fighting against in principle for decades? Men are allowed to have feelings just as much as women are, and you should not tolerate grotesque and dismissive baby talkbullshit towards either gender. You are a female chauvinist pig. Dont you dare use abhorrent tactics and then pretend youre fighting for equality.
kyrax2
I feel like theres another layer to this that isnt being addressed, too, and thats the cyclical nature of gaslighting and womens reactions. Women are sometimes afraid to speak up, for a variety of reasons. Maybe they are afraid of being perceived as irrationalor hypersensitive. Maybe they are afraid of losing their job/spouse/home. Maybe they come from a background of abuse. Regardless, the fear is there, and it keeps them silent until they cant take it anymore. Until they are so angry or frustrated or scared that they *have* to speak out. And when they do finally speak up, sometimes they *arent* being rational, or arent willing to listen to reason. The phenomenon is a cliche: for example, the woman whos so tired of the males patterns of behavior that she explodesone day when hes yet again left the cap off the toothpaste. This leads to the man gaslighting her: Whats the big deal? Why are you being so irrational? And the
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meh Log in to Reply

Damn straight BSup! You said it all. Log in to Reply

Ms. Daisy Cutter

September 24, 2011 at 8:11 am #

Advice taken. Duly ignored.

Ms. Daisy Cutter

Ms. Daisy Cutter

Ms. Daisy Cutter

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