Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions

Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer Volume !
"ear Gloria $ilmed %nter&ie' Syl&ia +th %nter&ie' ,$ilmedCommentary interspersed throughout Syl&ia *th %nter&ie' ,$ilmedCommentary interspersed throughout 0athy $ilmed %nter&ie' Commentary 1ione st $ilmed %nter&ie' Commentary interspersed throughout 1ione !nd $ilmed %nter&ie' $inal Comments (.. ()* (.* (.* (.* (.. (.. #age ! ! /( */ ). )2 2* 3(
These transcripts are a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. They may not be sold. Throughout these inter&ie's the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,C- are numbered for easy reference
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria4 %ntroduction4 page 1
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. Throughout this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,C- are numbered for easy reference. 6Source7 Shostrom4 E. L. , ()*-. Three approaches to psychotherapy ,#art %-6$ilm8. 9range4 C:7 #sychological $ilms.8 GL9R%: 1R. C:RL R9GERS #:RT % ;; 1ESCR%#T%9< 9$ S"STE= 6Before the %nter&ie'8 >$rom my o'n years of therapeutic e?perience4 % ha&e come to feel that if % can create the proper climate4 the proper4 relationship4 the proper conditions4 a process of therapeutic mo&ement 'ill almost ine&itably occur in my client. "ou may as@4 'Ahat is this climateB Ahat are these conditionsB Aill they e?ist in the inter&ie' 'ith the 'oman % am about to tal@ 'ith4 'hom % ha&e ne&er seen beforeB' Let me try to describe &ery briefly 'hat these conditions are as % see them. $irst of all4 one Cuestion is4 can % be real in the relationshipB This has come to ha&e an increasing amount of importance to me o&er the years. % feel that genuineness is another 'ay of describing the Cuality % 'ould li@e to ha&e. % li@e the term 'congruent'4 by 'hich. % mean that 'hat % am e?periencing inside is present in my a'areness and comes out through my communication. %n a sense4 'hen % ha&e this Cuality4 % am all in one piece in the relationship. There is another 'ord that describes it for me. % feel that in the relationship4 % 'ould li@e to ha&e a 'transparency.' % 'ould be Cuite 'illing for my client to see all the 'ay through me4 that there 'ould be nothing hidden. :nd 'hen lam real in Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria4 %ntroduction4 page 2
this fashion that %'m trying to describe4 then @no' that my o'n feelings 'ill often bubble up into a'areness and be e?pressed4 but be e?pressed in 'ays that 'on't impose themsel&es on my client. Then the second Cuestion % 'ould ha&e is4 'ill % find myself priDing this person4 caring for this personB % certainly don't 'ant to pretend a if % disli@e my client persistently4 % feel it is better4 that % should e?press it. But % @no' that the process of therapy is much more li@ely to occur and constructi&e change is much more li@ely4 if % feel a real spontaneous priDing of this indi&idual 'ith 'hom %'m 'or@ing4 a priDing of this person as a separate indi&idual. "ou can call that Cuality acceptance4 you can call it caring4 you can call it a non;possessi&e lo&e if you 'ish. % thin@ any of those terms tend to describe it. % @no' that the relationship 'ill pro&e more constructi&e if it's present. Then the third Cuality4 'ill % be able to understand the inner 'orld of this indi&idual from the insideB Aill % be able to see it through her eyesB Aill % be able to be sufficiently sensiti&e to mo&e around inside the 'orld of her feelings so that % @no' 'hat it feels li@e to be her so that % can sense not only the surface meanings4 but some of the meanings that lie some'hat underneath the surface. % @no' that if % can let myself sensiti&ely and accurately enter into her 'orld of e?perience4 then change and therapeutic mo&ement are much more li@ely. Aell4 suppose % am fortunate and that % do e?perience some of these attitudes in the relationship4 'hat thenB Aell4 then a &ariety of things are li@ely to happen. Both from my clinical e?perience and from our research in&estigations 'e find that if attitudes of the sorts that % ha&e described are present4 then Cuite a number of things 'ill happen. She'll e?plore some of her feelings and attitudes more deeply. She is li@ely to disco&er some
hidden aspects of herself that she 'asn't a'are of pre&iously. $eeling herself priDed by me4 it is Cuite possible she'll come to priDe herself more. $eeling that some of her meanings are understood by me4 then she can more readily perhaps listen to herself4 listen to 'hat is going on 'ithin her o'n e?perience4 listen to some of the meanings she hasn't been able to catch before. :nd perhaps if she senses realness in me4 she'll be able to be a little more real 'ithin herself. % suspect there 'ill be a change in the manner of her e?pression4 at least this has been my e?perience in other instances. $rom being rather remote from her e?periencing4 remote from 'hat is going on 'ithin her4 it's possible that she'll mo&e to'ard more immediacy of e?periencing4 that she 'ill be able to sense and e?plore 'hat is going on in her in the immediate moment. $rom being disappro&ing of herself4 it is Cuite possible she'll mo&e to'ard a greater degree of acceptance of herself. $rom some'hat of a fear of relating4 she may mo&e to'ard being able to relate more directly and to encounter me more directly. $rom construing life in some'hat rigid blac@ and 'hite patterns4' she may mo&e to'ard more tentati&e 'ays of construing her e?perience and of seeing meanings in it. $rom a locus of e&aluation 'hich is outside of herself4 it is Cuite possible she 'ill mo&e to'ard recogniDing a greater capacity 'ithin herself for ma@ing Eudgments and dra'ing conclusions. So those are some of the changes that 'e ha&e tended to find and % thin@ that they are all of them changes that are characteristic of the process of therapy or of therapeutic mo&ement. %f % ha&e any success in creating the @ind of conditions that % described initially4 then 'e may be able to see some of these changes in this client e&en though % @no' in ad&ance that our contact is going to be &ery brief.
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. Throughout this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,C- are numbered for easy reference. Note: Gestures were transcribed by Barbara T. Brodley. GL9R%: 6Source7 Shostrom4 E. L. , ()*-. Three approaches to psychotherapy 6$ilm8. 9range4 C:7 #sychological $ilms.8 TFER:#%ST7 1R. C:RL R9GERS T C! T! ,Rogers stands as Gloria enters.- Good morning. ,C7 Fello4 1r. Rogers- %'m 1r. Rogers4 you must be Gloria. ,They sha@e hands and sit do'n."es4 % am. Aon't you ha&e a chairB <o' then4 'e ha&e half an hour together4 and % really don't @no' 'hat 'e 'ill be able to ma@e of it but uh % hope 'e can ma@e something of it. %'d be glad to @no' 'hate&er concerns you. ,T7 Sitting for'ard4 C7 Sitting bac@4 legs crossed4 right arm o&er the bac@ of the chairAell4 right no' %'m ner&ous ,T7 =hm- but % feel more comfortable the 'ay you are tal@ing in a lo' &oice and % don't feel li@e you'll be so harsh on me. But4 ah ... % hear the tremor in your &oice so % @no' you are... ,C7 SmilesGh4 'ell4 the main thing % um4 'ant to tal@ to you about is uh4 %'m Eust ne'ly di&orced and uh % had gone in therapy before and % felt comfortable 'hen % left4 and all of a sudden no' the biggest change is adEusting to my single life. ,T7 =hm4 mhm- :nd uh one of the things that bothers me the most is especially men4 and ha&ing men to the house and ho' it affects the children ,T7 =hm4 =hm- and; Gh4 the biggest thing % 'ant ; the thing that @eeps coming to my mind % 'ant to tell you about is that % ha&e a daughter4 nine4 'ho at one time % felt had a lot of emotional problems. % 'ish % could stop sha@ing ,T and C7 laugh-. :nd uh4 %'m real conscious of things affecting her. % don't 'ant her to get upset4 % don't 'ant to shoc@ her. % 'ant so bad to; for her to accept me. :nd 'e're real open 'ith each other especially about se?. :nd the other day she sa' a girl that 'as single but pregnant and she as@ed me all about >can girls get pregnant if they are singleB> :nd the con&ersation 'as fine and % 'asn5t un; at ease at all 'ith her until she as@ed me if % had e&er made lo&e to a man since % left her daddy and % lied to her. :nd e&er since that4 it @eeps Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 5
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coming up to my mind because % feel so guilty lying to her because % ne&er lie and % 'ant her to trust me. :nd % 'ant; % almost 'ant an ans'er from you. % 'ant you to tell me if it 'ould affect her 'rong if % told her the truth4 or 'hat. ,T7=hmT+ C* :nd it's this concern about her and the fact that you really aren't ; that this open relationship that has e?isted bet'een you4 no' you feel it's @ind of &anishedB "es. % feel li@e % ha&e to be on guard about that ,T7 =hm- because % remember 'hen % 'as a little girl4 'hen % first found out my mother and father made lo&e4 that 'as dirty and terrible4 and % didn't; % didn5t li@e her any more for a'hile. :nd % don't 'ant to lie to #ammy either and % don't @no'... % sure 'ish % could gi&e you the ans'er as to 'hat you should tell her. ,Smiles.% 'as afraid you 'ere going to say that ,Laughs-. Because 'hat you really 'ant is an ans'er. % 'ant to especially @no' if it 'ould affect her if % 'as completely honest and open 'ith her or if it 'ould affect her because % lied. % feel li@e it is bound to ma@e a strain because % lied to her. 6Aords lost8 =hm. "ou feel she'll suspect that4 or she'll @no' something is not Cuite rightB % feel that in time she 'ill distrust me4 yes ,T7 =hm4 mhm-. :nd also % thought 'ell4 gee4 'hat about 'hen she gets a little older and she finds herself in touchy situations. She probably 'ouldn't 'ant to admit it to me because she thin@s %'m so good and so s'eet. ,#oints to herself.- :nd yet %'m afraid she could thin@ %'m really a; a de&il. :nd % 'ant so bad for her to accept me. :nd % don't @no' ho' much a nine;year;old can ta@e. :nd really both alternati&es concern you. That she may thin@ you're too good or better than you really are. "es. :nd she may thin@ you are 'orse than you are. <ot 'orse than % am. ,Smiles- % don't @no' if she can accept me the way % am. % thin@ % paint a picture that %'m all s'eet and motherly. :nd ;; %'m a little ashamed of my shady side too. ,T7=hm4 mhm% see. %t really cuts a little deeper. %f she really @ne' you4 'ould she4 could she accept youB This is 'hat % don't @no'. "eah. % don't 'ant her to turn a'ay from me. ,T7 That Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 6
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relationship;- :nd % don't e&en @no' ho' % feel about it because there are times 'hen % feel so guilty li@e 'hen % ha&e a man o&er4 % e&en try to ma@e a special set;up so that if % 'ere e&er alone 'ith him4 the children 'ould ne&er catch me in that sort of thing. Because %'m real leery about it ,T7 =hm-. :nd yet % also @no' that % ha&e these desires. T C ! T ! :nd so it5s Cuite clear it isn't only her problem or the relationship 'ith her4 it's in you as 'ell. :nd my guilt. "eah. "eah. ,T7 9h- % feel guilty so often. ,=oistens lips.>Ahat; Ahat can % accept myself as doingB> :nd uh ,C7 "es4 "es- you realiDe that you set up sort of subterfuges4 so as to ma@e sure that you're not caught or something4 you realiDe that you are acting from guilt4 is that itB "es ,T7 =hm4 mhm- and % don't li@e the ... % 'ould li@e to feel comfortable 'ith 'hate&er % do. %f % choose not to tell #ammy the truth4 to feel comfortable that she can handle it4 ,T7 =hm4 =hm4 =hm- and % don't. % 'ant to be honest4 and yet % feel there are some areas that I don't e&en accept ,T7 =hm4 =hm- . :nd if you can't accept them in yourself4 ho' could you possibly be comfortable in telling them to herB Right. =hm. =hm. :nd yet4 as you say4 you do ha&e these desires and you do ha&e your feelings4 but; but you don't feel good about them. Right. ,T7 <ods and smiles.- ,#ause- :nd %4 %4 % ha&e a feeling that you are Eust going to sit there and let me ste' in it ,laughs- and %; % 'ant more. % 'ant you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling. %f % can get rid of my guilt feeling about lying or going to bed 'ith a single man4 any of that4 Eust so % can feel more comfortable. =hm. :nd % guess %'d li@e to say4 ><o4 % don't 'ant to let you ste' in your feelings4> but on the other hand4 %4 % also feel that this is the @ind of &ery pri&ate thing that % couldn't possibly ans'er for you. But % sure as anything 'ill try to help you 'or@ to'ard your o'n ans'er. % don't @no' 'hether that ma@es any sense to you4 but % mean it. Aell4 % appreciate you saying that. ,Ta@es her arm off bac@ of chair4 no' uses both hands to gesture.- "ou sound li@e you mean it. But % don't @no' 'here to go. ,T7 =hm4 =hm4 =hm- % don't begin to @no' 'here to go. % thought that % had pretty 'ell 'or@ed o&er most of my guilt4 and no' that this is coming up %'m disappointed in myself. ,T7 =hm4 =hm- % really am. % 'ant; % li@e it 'hen % feel that no matter 'hat % do4 e&en if it's against my o'n morals or my upbringing4 that % can still feel good about me. :nd no' % don't. Li@e uh4 there's a girl at 'or@ 'ho sort of mothers Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 7
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me and she Eust; she; % thin@ she thin@s %'m all s'eet4 and % sure don't 'ant to sho' my more ornery de&ilish side 'ith her. % 'ant to be s'eet and it's so hard for me to ; this all seems so ne' again ,T7 =hm- and it's so disappointing. T ) "eah4 % get the disappointment ; that here4 a lot of these things you5d thought you'd 'or@ed through4 and no' the guilts and the feeling that only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else. "es. That @eeps coming out. ,#ause- ,C7 Strains eyebro's.- % guess % do catch the real deep puDDlement that you feel as to >Ahat the hell shall % doB Ahat can % doB> "es4 and do you @no' 'hat % can find4 doctor4 ,Touches forehead.- is that e&erything % start to do that % st; impulsi&e4 seems natural to tell #ammy4 or; or to go out on a date or something4 %5m comfortable until % thin@ ho' % 'as affected as a child and the minute that comes up4 then %'m all hay'ire. ,T7 =hm- Li@e uh4 % 'ant to be a good mother so bad4 and % feel li@e % am a good mother4 ,T7 =hm- but then there's those little e?ceptions. Li@e my guilts 'ith 'or@ing. % 'ant to 'or@ and it's so fun ha&ing e?tra money. % li@e to 'or@ nights. The minute % thin@ %'m not being real good to the children or gi&ing them enough time4 then % start feeling guilty again. Then4 that5s 'hen %; it5s uh; 'hat do they call itB ,Loo@s a'ay briefly.- : double bind. That's Eust 'hat it feels li@e. % 'ant to do this and it feels right4 but after all %'m not being a good mother and % 'ant to be both. % am becoming more and more a'are of 'hat a perfectionist % am. That is 'hat it seems % 'ant to be so perfect. Either % 'ant to become perfect in my standards4 or not ha&e that need any more. 9r4 % guess % hear it a little differently ; that uh; 'hat you 'ant is to seem perfect4 but it means it5s; a great; a matter of great importance to you to be a good mother and you 'ant to seem to be a good mother4 e&en if some of your actual feelings differ from that. ,#oints to C.- %s that catching it or notB Gee4 % don't feel li@e % am saying that. ,T7 9h4 o@ay- <o4 that isn't 'hat % feel4 really. % 'ant to appro&e of me al'ays4 but my actions 'on't let me. % 'ant to appro&e of me. ,#ause- % H % thin@; ,Strains face.% realiDe ... you ;; alright4 but let me ;; %5d li@e to understand it. "ou sound as though your actions 'ere @ind of outside of you. "ou 'ant to appro&e of you4 but 'hat you do someho' 'on't let you appro&e of yourself. Right. ,#ause- Li@e % feel that % can't appro&e of myself regarding4 for e?ample ,Smiles.-4 my se? life. ,T7 =hm4 =hm- This is the big thing. %f % really fell in lo&e 'ith a man and % respected him and % adored him4 % don't thin@ % 'ould feel so guilty going to bed 'ith him and % don't thin@ % 'ould ha&e to ma@e up any e?cuses to the children because they could see my natural caring for him. ,T7 =hm4 9@ay- But Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 8
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'hen % ha&e the physical desires and %'ll say4 >9h 'ell4 'hy not4> and % 'ant to any'ay4 but % feel guilty after'ards. % hate facing the @ids4 % don't li@e loo@ing at myself4 and % rarely enEoy it. :nd this is 'hat % mean. %f the circumstances 'ould be different4 % don't thin@ %'d feel so guilty because %'d feel right about it. ,Gestures more profoundly.T!3 "eah4 %; % guess % hear you saying4 >%f 'hat % 'as doing4 'hen % 'ent to bed 'ith a man4 'as really genuine and full of lo&e and respect and so on4 % 'ouldn't feel guilty in relation to #am. % 'ouldn5t uh4 %4 % really 'ould be comfortable about the situation.> That's ho' % feel4 yeah. ,Smiles.- :nd % @no' that sounds li@e % 'ant a perfect situation4 but that is ho' % feel. :nd in the meantime4 % can't stop these desires. % tried that also. %5&e tried saying4 >9.0.4 % don't li@e myself 'hen % do that so % 'on't do it any more.> But then % resent the children. % thin@4 'hy should they stop me from doing 'hat % 'ant4 and it is really not that bad. But % guess % heard you saying too4 that it isn't only the children4 but you don't li@e it as 'ell 'hen it isn't really ... Right. %'m sure that ; % @no' that's it4 probably e&en more so than %'m a'are of. But % only notice it so much 'hen % pic@ it up in the children. Then % can also notice it in myself. ,Touches her face.:nd someho'4 sometimes4 you @ind of uh4 feel li@e blaming them for the feelings you ha&e. % mean4 'hy should they cut you out from a normal se? life4 huhB Aell4 a se? life4 % could say4 not normal because there is something about me that says that's not &ery healthy H to uh Eust go into se? because you feel physically attracted or something4 or a physical need. So4 something about it tells me that that's not Cuite right any'ay. ,Still touching her face.=hm. ,#ause- But you feel4 really4 that at times you5re acting in 'ays that are not in accord 'ith your o'n inner standards. Right. Right. But then you 'ere also saying4 a minute ago4 that you feel you can't help that uh; either. % 'ish % could. That's it4 and % can't - no' % feel li@e %; % can't control myself as 'ell as % could ha&e before. $or a specific reason no'4 % can't. % Eust let go and % ha&e; there5s too many things % do 'rong that % ha&e to feel guilty for4 and % sure don't li@e that. % 'ant you &ery much to gi&e me a direct ans'er4 and %'m going to as@ it4 and % don't e?pect a direct ans'er4 ,Smiles.- but % 'ant to @no'. 1o you feel that - to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if % can be Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 9
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open and honest 'ith my children4 do you feel that it could harm themB %f for e?ample4 % could say to #ammy4 >% 'as; % felt bad lying to you4 #ammy4 and % 'ant to tell you the truth no'4> and if % tell her the truth and she5s shoc@ed at me and she5s upset4 that that could bother her moreB % 'as; % 'ant to get rid of my guilts and that 'ill help me4 but % don't 'ant to put Iem on her. ,#oints a'ay from herself.T!* C!) T!) That's right. 1o you feel that that could hurt herB That5s a real concern. % guess uh ; % am sure this 'ill sound e&asi&e to you4 but it seems to me that perhaps the person you are not being uh fully honest 'ith is youB ,C7 Sure- Because % 'as &ery much struc@ by the fact that you 'ere saying4 >%f % feel all right about 'hat % ha&e done4 'hether it's going to bed 'ith a man or 'hat4 if % really feel all right about it4 then % do not ha&e any concern about 'hat % 'ould tell #am or my relationship 'ith her.> ,Sha@es head.Right. :ll right. <o' % hear 'hat you are sayin5. ,Sighs- ,Shifts bac@ and forth in chair.- Then all right4 then % 'ant to 'or@ on ,T7 %t5s @ind of tough4 huhB- ;; % 'anna 'or@ on accepting me4 then. % 'ant to 'or@ on feeling all right about it. But that ma@es sense. That that 'ill come natural and then % 'on't ha&e to 'orry about #ammy. ,T7 =hm.- But 'hen things do seem so 'rong for me and % ha&e an impulse to do them4 ho' can % accept thatB Ahat you'd li@e to do is to feel more accepting to'ard yourself 'hen you do things that you feel are 'rong. %s that rightB Right. :nd % feel li@e4 % feel li@eJ ,Smiling- %t sounds li@e a tough assignment. "eah4 % feel li@e you are going to say4 ><o' 'hy do you thin@ they5re 'rongB> and uh4 % ha&e mi?ed feelings there too. ,T7 =hm- Through therapy % 'ill say4 ><o' loo@4 % @no' this is natural. Aomen feel it ; sure4 'e don't tal@ about it lots socially but all 'omen feel it and it's &ery natural.> % ha&e had se? for the last years and %5m; of course going to 'ant it4 but % still thin@ it is 'rong unless you5re really4 truly in lo&e 'ith a man4 and my body doesn't seem to agree. :nd so % don't @no' ho' to accept it. %t sounds li@e a triangle to me4 isn't itB "ou feel that %4 or therapists in general4 or other people say4 >%t is all right4 it is all right4 it5s natural enough4 go ahead.> Gm4 and % guess you feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture. ,#oints to C. But something in you says4 >But % don't li@e it that 'ay4 not unless it5s really right.> Right. ,Long #ause- ,Sighs4 then spea@s in a slo'er4 somber 'ay.- Aell4 % ha&e a Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 10
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hopeless feeling. ,T7 =hm- % mean4 these are all the things that % sort of feel myself4 and % feel uh ; 9.0.4 no' 'hatB T/3 C/ =hm. "ou feel this is the conflict and it's Eust insoluble4 and therefore it is hopeless4 and here you loo@ to me and % don't seem to gi&e you any help and that uh; Right. % uh; % really @no' you can't ans'er for me4 and % ha&e to figure it out myself4 but % 'ant you to guide me or sho' me 'here to start or ; so it 'on't loo@ so hopeless. % @no' % can @eep li&ing 'ith this conflict and % @no' e&entually things 'ould 'or@ out4 but %'d li@e feeling more comfortable 'ith the 'ay % li&e H ,T7 =hm4 mhm.- and %'m not. 9ne thing % might as@4 'hat is it you 'ish % 'ould say to youB % 'ish you 'ould say to me ,Smiles-7 to be honest and ta@e the ris@ that #ammy5s going to accept me. :nd % also ha&e a feeling if % could really ris@ it 'ith #ammy4 of all people4 that %'d be able to say4 >Fere's this little @id that can accept me4 and %'m really not that bad.> %f she really @no's 'hat a demon % am and still lo&es me and accepts me4 it seems li@e it 'ould help me to accept me more ; li@e it's really not that bad. ,T7 =hm- % 'ant you to say to go ahead and be honest4 but % don't 'ant the responsibility that it 'ould upset her. ,T7 % see.- That is 'here % don't 'ant to ta@e responsibility. So you @no'4 yeah ; "ou @no' &ery 'ell 'hat you'd li@e to do in the relationship. "ou would li@e to be yourself and you'd li@e to ha&e her @no' that you're not perfect and do things that maybe e&en she 'ouldn't appro&e of4 and that you disappro&e of to some degree yourself4 but that uh; someho' she 'ould lo&e you and accept you as an imperfect person. "es. Li@e % 'onder if my mother had been more open 'ith me4 maybe % 'ouldn't ha&e had such a narro' attitude about se?. %f % 'ould ha&e thought that she could be4 you @no'4 pretty se?y and ornery4 and de&ilish too4 that % 'ouldn't loo@ at her as being such a s'eet mother4 that she could also be the other side. But she didn't tal@ about that. ,Sha@es her head.- ,T7 =hm- =aybe that's 'here % got my picture. % don't @no'4 but % 'ant #ammy to see me as a full 'oman4 but also accept me. "ou don't sound so uncertain. % don'tB ,Tilts head and smiles.- Ahat do you meanB Ahat % mean is you ha&e been sitting there telling me Eust 'hat you 'ould li@e to do in that relationship 'ith #am. ,:ppears confused.- % 'ould4 but % don't 'ant to Cuite ta@e the ris@ of doing it ,T7 % can understand- unless an authority tells me that J
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,Eyes moistening4 hands clasped.- %t5s4 % guess one thing that % feel &ery @eenly is that it's an a'ful ris@y thing to li&e. ,#ause- ,Fands unclasp.- "ou'd be ta@ing a chance on your relationship 'ith her and ta@ing a chance on letting her @no' 'ho you are4 really. ,#ause- "eah. But then if % don't ta@e the chance4 if % feel lo&ed and accepted by her4 %'ll ne&er feel good about it any'ay. =hm. =hm. %f her lo&e and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you4 'hat the hell is the good of thatB %s that; is that 'hat you are sayingB "eah4 that5s 'hat % mean4 yes. But % also feel there is a lot of responsibility 'ith being a mother. Aith % don5t; % don't 'ant to feel like % ha&e caused any big traumas in the children. % don't li@e all that responsibility. % thin@ that's it. % don't li@e it4 feeling it could be my fault. =hm. % guess that's 'hat % meant 'hen % said4 >Life is ris@y.> %t5s uh; to ta@e the responsibility for being the person you 'ould li@e to be 'ith her is a hell of a responsibility. %t is. : &ery frightening one. :nd you @no'4 %; % loo@ at it t'o 'ays. % li@e to see myself as being so honest 'ith the @ids4 and really being proud of myself so that no matter 'hat % told them or no matter ho' bad they thin@ % 'as4 % 'as honest ,points at herself- ,T7 =hm- and do'n deep it5s gonna be a much more 'holesome relationship4 and yet you @no'4 % get Eealous of li@e 'hen they are 'ith their daddy. % feel he5s more flip4 he5s not Cuite as real4 he5s not Cuite as honest4 but ne&ertheless4 they see a s'eet picture of their dad. "ou @no'4 he is all goodness and light4 and % am en&ious of that too. % 'ant them to see me Eust as s'eet as they see him and yet % @no' he is not Cuite as real 'ith them. So it seems li@e %'&e got to s'ap the one for the other4 and % @no' this is really 'hat % 'ant the most4 but uh4 % miss some of that glory. "eah. "ou sort of feel4 K% 'ant them to ha&e Eust as nice a picture of me as they ha&e of their dad4 ,C7 % do. Right- and if his is a little phony4 then maybe mine 'ill ha&e to be too.L % thin@ that's putting it a little too strongly4 but; But that5s close. That is 'hat % mean. So uh; But % @no' she can't ha&e that neat a picture of me4 if % 'ere honest. ,Big smile- ,T7 Laughs- Besides that4 % do feel that %5m a little more ornery than their dad any'ay. So %'m li@ely to do more things that they5d disappro&e of. Sounds li@e you really find it Cuite hard to belie&e that they 'ould really lo&e you if they knew youB Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 12
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That's right. "ou @no' that's e?actly it. Before therapy4 % 'ould ha&e definitely chosen the other area. %5m going to get respect from them no matter 'hat ; e&en if % ha&e to lie. % see. But right no'4 % @no' that's not true ,T7 =hm4 mhm- and %'m not positi&e they'll truly accept me. Something tells me they 'ill. % @no' they 'ill4 but % am not positi&e. % 'ant reassurance. % @eep 'anting these things. :nd no' you are @ind of in a no;man's;land of probably shifting from one point of &ie' to'ard them to another4 but boy you'd sure li@e somebody to say4 >That's right4 you go ahead and do it.> ,Gestures to sides."es. "es. That's 'hy % get encouraged 'hen % read in a boo@ from somebody % respect and admire4 that this is the right thing no matter 'hat ; honesty 'ill 'in out. Aell then4 that @eeps gi&ing me confidence. KBy gosh4 %'m right.L But % ... %t is so damned hard to really choose something on your o'n4 isn't itB Ahich ma@es me feel rea; &ery immature. % don't li@e this in me. % 'ish % 'ere gro'n up enough or mature enough to ma@e my decisions and stic@ by them4 but % need somebody to help me on ; somebody to push me. So that you @ind of reproach yourself for that4 % guess. :nd feel4 >Ahy4 if % 'as anybody4 or if % 'as gro'n up4 %'d be mature enough to decide things li@e this for myself.> Right. Right. :nd ta@e more risks. % 'ish %5d ta@e more ris@s. % 'ish that % could Eust go ahead and be this and say4 ho'e&er the children gro' up4 %'&e done my best. % didn5t ha&e to constantly ha&e this conflict. :nd %'d li@e4 in later years4 to say4 ><o matter 'hat you as@ed me @ids4 at least % told you the truth. "ou may not ha&e li@ed it4 but it's been the truth.> ,Camera pans to'ards hands.- That4 someho'4 % can admire. ,T7 =hm.- %; % disrespect people that lie. % hate it so4 you see 'hat a double bind % am in. % hate myself if %'m bad4 but % also hate myself if % lie. So uh4 it's accepting. % 'ant to become more accepting. % guess4 Eudging from your tone of &oice4 you sound as though you hate yourself more 'hen you lie than you do in terms of things you disappro&e of in beha&ior. % do. % do because this has really bothered me. This happened 'ith #ammy about a month ago and it @eeps coming to my mind. % don't @no' 'hether to go bac@ and tal@ to her about it or 'ait. She may ha&e e&en forgotten 'hat she as@ed me4 but uh H it Eust;
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The point is4 you ha&en't forgotten. % ha&en... <o4 % ha&en't. :nd % 'ould li@e4 at least4 to be able to tell her that % remember lying and % am sorry % lied and it has been dri&ing me bugs because % did. ,#ause- % do; <o' % feel li@e ; no' that's sol&ed ; and % didn't e&en sol&e a thing4 but % feel relie&ed. ,T7 =hm4 =hm.- % uh; % do feel li@e you ha&e been saying to me H you5re not say; gi&ing me ad&ice4 but % do feel li@e you are saying4 >"ou really 'anna; "ou @no' 'hat pattern you 'ant to follo' Gloria4 and go ahead and follo' it.> % sort of feel a bac@ing up from you. % guess the 'ay % sense it is uh4 you'&e been telling me that you @no' 'hat you 'ant to do and yes4 % do belie&e in bac@ing up people in 'hat they 'ant to do. %t5s Eust a little different slant than the 'ay it seems to you. :re you telling me... "ou see4 one thing that concerns me is uh4.. %t's no damn good you5re doing something that you ha&en't really chosen to do. That5s 'hy % am trying to help you find out 'hat your o'n inner choices are. But then there's also a conflict there because % am not really positi&e 'hat % 'anna do. The lying part4 yes4 but % am not positi&e 'hat % 'anna do 'hen % go against myself. ,T7 Sure- Li@e 'hen % bring a man to the house. % am not sure % 'ant to do that. %f % feel guilty after'ard4 % must not ha&e really 'anted to. :nd % am interested that you say ; %'m not Eust sure 'hich 'ords you used ; but you don5t 'ant; you don5t li@e yourself or don't appro&e of it 'hen you do something against yourself. ,C7 Fand to her face."es. "ou @no'4 this is so different. <o' this @ind of thing 'e are tal@ing about no'4 it isn't Eust @no'ing 'hether you 'ant to do something or not. %f % 'ant to go to 'or@ in the morning or if % don't 'ant to go to 'or@4 that's easy. ,Both hands palms up.- But 'hen % find myself doing something % don't feel comfortable 'ith4 % automatically say4 >%f you5re not comfortable Gloria4 it5s not right. Something5s 'rong.> :ll right no'. Ahat % 'ant to as@ you is4 ho' can % @no' 'hich is the strongestB Because % do it4 does that mean that5s the strongestB :nd yet4 if % disappro&ed4 that's Eust part of the thing that5s got to go along 'ith itB "ou see4 it sounds li@e you... ,#oints at self 'ith both hands.- %'m pic@ing up a contradiction. %5m not under; %5m not follo'ing. %t sounds li@e you5re feeling a contradiction in yourself too4 although you; 'hat % heard you saying in part is uh4 the 'ay you li@e it is 'hen you feel really comfortable about 'hat you are doing. "es4 and % ha&e at times4 'hen %5&e made a decision. <o' that seems right. ,T7 =hm- That seems perfectly right ; no conflict ; but then there are times % do things Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 14
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that % feel uncomfortable 'ith. So that there is a conflict there. ,T7 =hm- %t's not the same at all. So4 'hat %'m saying is4 ho' do % really @no' 'hen % am follo'ing my true feelings4 if % ha&e conflicts after'ards or guilt after'ardsB T* C*! T*! % see. Because in the moment4 it may seem li@e your true feelings. "es. Li@e if %5m starting to do it ;; 9.0. =hm. =hm. So that really is tough ah ... Ahen if you feel comfortable in the moment about it4 but then after'ards don't feel at all comfortable4 'hich course of action 'as really the one you should ha&e follo'edB "ou @no'4 the most outstanding thing ; % don't @no' if you are follo'ing me4 'hen % say about this conflict ; the one thing % @no' is %5&e 'anted4 for e?ample4 to lea&e my husband for Cuite a fe' years. % ne&er did it. % @ept thin@ing ho' nice it 'ould be4 or ho' scary it 'ould be4 but % ne&er did it. :nd all of a sudden 'hen % did4 it felt right. % didn't feel mean to'ard him. % Eust @ne' this 'as 'hat % had to do. That's 'hen % @no' % am follo'ing myself. % am follo'ing my feelings completely. % ha&e no conflict there. Some unhappy things came from it ,T7 sure-4 but % still ha&e no conflict. That4 to me4 is 'hen % am follo'ing my feelings. :nd in e&eryday life the small little decisions4 the small little things to do don't come out that clear at all. So many conflicts come 'ith them. ,T7 =hm4 that5s right- %s this naturalB ,0nits eyebro's.:lthough you are saying H uh4 % e?pect it is H but4 but you5re saying too that you @no' perfectly 'ell the feeling 'ithin yourself that occurs 'hen you are really doing something that's right for you. % do. % do. ,$ace rela?es.- :nd % miss that feeling other times. :nd it's right a'ay a clue to me. =hm. "ou can really listen to yourself sometimes and realiDe4 >9h no4 this isn't the right feeling. This isn't H this isn5t the 'ay % 'ould feel if % 'as doing 'hat % really 'anted to do.> But yet4 many times % 'ill go along and do it any'ay. :nd say4 >9h 'ell4 %'m in the situation no'4 %'ll Eust remember ne?t time.> % mentioned this 'ord a lot in therapy and most therapists grin at me or giggle or something 'hen % say >utopia4> but 'hen % do follo' a feeling and % feel this good feeling inside of me4 that's sort of utopia. That's 'hat % mean. That's the 'ay % li@e to feel 'hether it's a bad thing or a good thing. But % feel right about me. This is 'hat % 'annaJ %4 % sense that in those utopian moments4 you really feel @ind of 'hole. "ou feel all in one piece.
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"es. "eah4 it gi&es me a cho@ed up feeling 'hen you say that because % don't get that as often as %'d li@e. ,Smiles.- % li@e that 'hole feeling. That's real precious to me. ,Touches her face.% e?pect none of us get it as often as 'e'd li@e4 but % really do understand it. ,#ause,C7 Tears come to her eyes.- =hm4 that really does touch you4 doesn't itB "eah4 and you @no' 'hat else % 'as Eust thin@ingB % H % feel dumb saying it uh ; that all of a sudden 'hile % 'as tal@ing to you % thought4 >Gee4 ho' nice % can tal@ to you and % 'ant you to appro&e of me and % respect you4 but % miss that my father couldn't tal@ to me li@e you are.> ,Touches her chin.- % mean4 %'d li@e to say4 >Gee4 %'d li@e you for my father.> ,T7 =hm4 =hm4 =hm- % don't e&en @no' 'hy that came to me. ,Smiles"ou loo@ to me li@e a pretty nice daughter. ,#ause- ,C7 Loo@s do'n.- But you really do miss the fact that you; you couldn't be open 'ith your o'n dad. "eah4 % couldn't be open4 but %4 % 'anna blame it on him. % thin@ %5m more open than he'd allo' me. Fe 'ould ne&er listen to me tal@ li@e you are and not disappro&e4 not lo'er me do'n. % thought of this the other day. Ahy do % al'ays ha&e to be so perfectB % @no' 'hy. Fe al'ays 'anted me to be perfect. % al'ays had to be better ,touches her lips- and uh... yeah4 % miss that. "ou 'ere Eust trying li@e hell to be the girl he 'anted you to be. "et at the same time4 rebelling. That's right. Sure. ,<ods,Gesturing 'ith left hand from the side of her head.- Li@e % almost gloated 'riting him a letter the other day and telling him % am a 'aitress4 'hich % e?pect him to disappro&e of. % go out at nights and % almost gloated hitting him bac@ ; li@e4 ><o' ho' do you li@e meB> ,T7 Gh;huh4 Gh;huh- :nd yet4 % really 'ant acceptance and lo&e from him. % mean4 % @no' he lo&es me. So you slap at him and say4 >This is 'hat % am4 no' see.> "eah. ,T7 But you; yeah- >"ou raised me4 ho' do you li@e itB> But do you @no' 'hat % 'ant him to sayB >% @ne' this 'as you all along4 honey4 and % really lo&e you.> ,Aipes a tear 'ith finger.9h4 % see. "ou really feel badly that you thin@ there is &ery little chance he 'ill say that. <o. Fe 'on't. Fe doesn't hear. ,Fer &oice sad and resigned.- % 'ent bac@ home to him about t'o years ago4 really 'anting to let him @no' % lo&ed him although %5&e Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 16
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been afraid of him. :nd he doesn't hear me. Fe Eust @eeps saying things li@e4 >Foney4 you @no' % lo&e you. "ou @no' % ha&e al'ays lo&ed you.> Fe doesn't hear. ,Fer eyes moisten.T)! C)/ That 'asJ Fe5s ne&er really @no'n you and lo&ed you and this4 someho'4 is 'hat brings the tears inside. % don't @no' 'hat it is. "ou @no'4 'hen % tal@ about it4 it feels more flip. %f % Eust sit still a minute4 it feels li@e a great big hurt do'n there. That % uh4 feel cheated. ,Reaches for @leene?4 'ipes her eye.=hm. =hm. %t is much easJ %t5s much easier to uh be a little flip4 because then you don't feel that big lump inside of hurt. =hm. ,<odding- :nd again4 that's a hopeless situation. % tried 'or@ing on it4 and uh4 % feel it's something % ha&e to accept. =y father Eust isn't the type of man %'d really li@e. %'d li@e somebody more understanding and caring. Fe cares4 but not in the 'ay that 'e can cooperate or communicate. =hm. "ou feel KnopeL that4 >% am permanently cheated.> =hm. That is 'hy % li@e substitutes. Li@e % li@e tal@ing to you and % li@e men that % can respect. 1octors4 and % @eep sort of maybe underneath a feeling li@e 'e5re real close4 you @no'4 and it5s sort of li@e a substitute father. % don't feel that's pretending. Aell4 you are not really my father ,laughs-. ,Raises her eyebro's.<o4 % meant about the real close business. Aell4 see4 % sort of feel that's pretending too4 because % can't e?pect you to feel &ery close to me. "ou don't @no' me that 'ell. ,$ingering @leene?.Aell4 all % can do is 'hat % am feeling; that is % feel close to you in this moment. ,Long #ause.6The remainder is not on the film H only on audio recording8 Aell4 9.0.4 %'d Eust li@e more of it % guess. 1o you feel as though that's a big need4 that it 'ould ta@e a lot of caring and a lot of understanding to fill it upB E?actly. :nd % ha&e been so busy trying to get rid of my neurosis. %'d li@e to ha&e this one neurosis filled. %'d li@e to Eust find someone 'ho is going to lo&e me li@e a father. % e&en 'ant this in boyfriends. % al'ays 'ant to get an older man that's Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Gloria %nter&ie'4 page 17
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caring and more mature and not so flip. T)( C.3 9ne of the things you really deeply 'ant is to find a father 'hom you 'ould lo&e and respect and 'ho 'ould really li@e you as you are4 and not to Eust li@e perfection. That's right. :nd it seems ironic that since % ha&e been a'ay from my husband4 the only type of man % go out 'ith are the @ind % don't respect ; are the young4 flip4 not caring4 'smart alec@' @ind of guy. <ot somebody that's really4 you @no'4 that % can respect. That seems li@e such a big thing. The phrase that comes to my mind ; % don't @no' if it is appropriate or not ; you're slapping your father in the face4 aren't youB 9hB By 'anting mature menB <o. By going out 'ith those 'ho are Cuite unli@e the ones you'd really 'ant. But % don't mean to. % don't understand 'hy they @eep coming around.
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Rogers5 #ost;Session Commentary %n spite of feeling initially the artificiality of the situation4 particularly the hot lights4 % &ery Cuic@ly became obli&ious to the outside situation4 and % thin@ that Gloria did too. %n many 'ays %'m glad that she @ept pushing me for an ans'er to her &ery personal Cuestions about her se? life and her relationship to her daughter. % say %'m glad of this because as the relationship de&eloped4 it became % thin@ completely clear to her as 'ell as to me that she 'as see@ing something a good deal deeper than that. %ncidentally4 %'d li@e to pay my tribute to her deep honesty in being 'illing to tal@ about herself so freely. :lthough e&ery indi&idual is entirely uniCue4 and in this respect % 'as definitely unprepared for and sometimes surprised by the material she brought up ; still4 in another sense4 this 'as &ery typical of my e?periences in therapy. Ahen % am able really to let myself enter into a relationship4 and % feel that this 'as true in this instance4 then % find myself not only being increasingly mo&ed by being in touch 'ith the inner 'orld of my client4 but % find myself bringing out my o'n inner e?perience4 statements 'hich seem to ha&e no connection 'ith 'hat's going on4 but 'hich usually pro&e to be4 or pro&e to ha&e4 a &ery significant relationship to 'hat the client is e?periencing. % felt there 'ere one o t'o incidents of this @ind in this brief inter&ie'. % 'as genuinely mo&ed4 % probably sho'ed it4 by the fact that she told me near the end of the contact that4 uh4 she sa' me as the father she 'ould li@e to ha&e. =y reply 'as also a thoroughly spontaneous one that she seemed to me li@e a pretty nice daughter. % guess % feel that 'e're only playing 'ith the real 'orld of relationships 'hen 'e tal@ about such an e?perience in terms of transference and counter;transference. % feel Cuite deeply about that. % 'ant to say4 yes4 'e can put this e?perience into some such highly intellectualiDed frame'or@4 but 'hen 'e do
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that it completely misses the point of the &ery immediate >%;Thou> Cuality of the relationship at such moments. % felt that Gloria and % really encountered each other and that in some small but4 % belie&e4 lasting 'ay4 'e 'ere each of us enriched by the e?perience. % am saying these things almost immediately after the conclusion of the inter&ie' and as is characteristic of me4 there are not more than one or t'o statements or incidents 'hich % recall from the inter&ie'. % simply @no' that % 'as &ery much present in the relationship4 that % li&ed it in the moment of its occurrence4 and % realiDe that after a time % may begin to remember it too. But at the present time4 % really ha&e a &ery non;specific memory of the 'hole inter&ie'. %'ll try to loo@ at it4 though4 a little bit more from an intellectual rather than a strictly feeling point of &ie'. Gloria sho'ed 'hat % ha&e come to feel are characteristic elements of therapeutic mo&ement. %n the first part of the inter&ie'4 she 'as tal@ing about her feelings and they 'ere past feelings.. She 'as tal@ing about aspects of her beha&ior and of herself as if she didn't Cuite o'n them. She 'as loo@ing outside herself for a center4 or a locus of e&aluation4 some source of authority. She sa' some of the things she 'as tal@ing about in fairly blac@ and 'hite fashion. By the end of the inter&ie'4 she 'as e?periencing her feelings in the immediate moment4 not only as e&idenced by her tears4 but by her ability to e?press &ery directly and 'ith immediacy her feelings to'ard me. She 'as also much more a'are of her ability to ma@e her o'n Eudgments and choices. % guess4 put in terms that ha&e become some'hat commonplace4 you could say that she mo&ed from the >there and then> of her life to the >here and no'> of elements that she 'as disco&ering in herself feelings 'hich she 'as e?periencing in the moment in her relationship 'ith me. :ll in all4 % feel good about the inter&ie'. % guess % feel good about myself in the inter&ie' and li@e Gloria4 % feel &ery real regret that the relationship cannot continue.
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This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. %n this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,C- ,Carl Rogers-4 and the client ,S- ,Syl&ia- are numbered for easy reference.
Carl Rogers +th %nter&ie' 'ith Syl&ia ;
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6Source7 Ahiteley4 M. =. , (.*-. Carl Rogers !th Inter"iew with #yl"ia 6$ilm8.8 :fter filming4 comments by Syl&ia and Rogers 'ere inserted. The brac@eted italiciDed dialogue indicates the &oiced o&er comments. 6Carl Rogers7 This is $y fourth inter"iew with #yl"ia. % year pre"ious& #yl"ia had been a $e$ber of a workshop in which I offered to put on a de$onstration inter"iew. I asked for "olunteers and she was the first one to "olunteer. In front of that workshop audience& I held three inter"iews with #yl"ia. Then a year& uh& inter"ened before this fourth inter"iew. The inter"iew will be& uh& shown as it was recorded& but with& uh& co$$ents both fro$ #yl"ia and fro$ $yself& at points where we felt we wished to clarify what was going on& uh& or to& to& uh& $ake so$e co$$ent about what was going on.8 Carl7 Fi. Syl&ia7 Fi Carl. ,They both sit do'n4 facing each other.C7 Good to see ya. S 7 %5&e been loo@ing for'ard to this moment. C 7 Aell4 %5m eager to @no' 'hat5s 'hat 'ith you. S !7 ,Loo@s do'n.- ,#ause 2 seconds.- ,Leans bac@.- Aell4 do you mean in terms of the past year or right no'B
This Syl&ia4 in session N+4 is the same person as the client in the film KThe Struggle for Self;:cceptanceL ; session N* 'ith Syl&ia.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 +th %nter&ie'4 page 21
C !7 9h4 right no'4 'hate&er your concerns are in your present life. ,S7 =hm hm- % guess that5s 'hat %5m interested in. S !7 Aell4 um4 ,smiles- % come here 'ith an agenda4 ,C7 9@ay.- li@e4 of a particular thing %5d li@e to discuss 'ith you. ,C7 :ll right.- :nd4 and % thin@ that discussing it 'ill be helpful in terms of my4 of my life. C !7 Gh;huh. Then that5s 'hat %5d li@e you to discuss. S /7 Aell4 % thin@ %5m doing &ery 'ell in many 'ays4 and % need to do some 'or@4 ,C7 =;hm.- too. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd4 uh4 the most pressing thing 'ith me is that % plan to go to 'or@ in the fall4 ,C7 <ods.- full;time4 ,C7 <ods.- and ha&e the care of both of my sons. ,C7 <ods.- Aithout any support other than 'hat %5m earning. ,+ second pause.- :nd %4 and %4 % don5t feel &ery upset about it4 but % belie&e that deep do'n in my body %5m really afraid. ,Smiles.C /7 :re you afraid of the responsibility or4 or 'hat aspect of it is most frighteningB S +7 Aell 'hat4 'hat seems most frightening as % thin@ about it is coming home from 'or@ &ery tired ,C7 =;hm.- and ha&ing4 um4 t'o little boys that need a lot. ,C7 =; hm.- ,Fer &oice Cui&ers.C +7 Aill you really be able to be a mother to them 'hen they4 ,hands Syl&ia tissue bo?.'hen you come home from 'or@. FmmmB S *7 Aell4 %5m sure % can do it ,gets teary- because %4 it5s done e&ery day. :nd4 uh4 the 'omen % @no' anJ 'ho are trying to do that are ha&ing a really hard time. ,C7 =; hm.- ,/ seconds pause.- :nd %5&e been thin@ing about tal@ing about this problem no' 'ith you. % ha&en5t reallyJ %4 % tal@ about in a heady 'ay 'ith my friends4 and4 uh4 % ha&en5t gi&en myself any real support ,C7 =;hm.- 'ith it. %t5s a real fear %
ha&e4 and it5ll probably be really hard. ,C7 =;hm.6Carl: It s interesting that& uh& because she had sa"ed up this proble$ to talk about that the $o$ent she begins to talk about it she begins to& to& uh& get teary ' that s why I reached for the& uh& (leene)& which she didn t use. But& uh& it s e"ident that& uh& though she $ay ha"e talked about it in a& in an intellectual fashion to her friends& uh& it really does ha"e a lot of e$otional i$port for her.* 6Syl&ia7 +ell& I& I don t know if it s ob"ious to you but I started to cry when I said that and you know why& you know& I was feeling a lot of sadness.* C *7 ,Tal@ing at the same time- :nd you ha&en5t really had a chance to e?plore it in4 in depthO you5&e tal@ed about it more on a4 on the surface le&el. S *7 Aell4 the e?ploring %5&e done isJ ,/ seconds pause- % decided for myself; 'ell simple4 %5ll loo@ for other single 'or@ing mothers ,C7 <ods.- 'ith young children 'ho are doing 'ell. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd %5ll tal@ to them and see 'hat they do. ,C7 =; hm.- So % started as@ing4 as@ing my friends4 as@ing some people % @no'4 K1o you @no' of this @ind of personBL Aell after about a month4 ,Cuiet laugh- % didn5t come up 'ith one4 ,C7 %s that rightB- one single 'oman ta@ing care of young children and 'or@ing full;time 'ho 'as doing &ery 'ell ,C7 <ods.- and that scared me. C )7 So the trac@ record4 the trac@ record that the other people ha&e4 the other 'omen ha&e ma@es you really concerned about 'ill you be able to do itB S .7 Aell that substantiates my concern. C 27 "eah. "eah. S (7 %5&e had the concern. ,C7 "eah. =;hm.- ,#ause 2 seconds.- ,C7 =;hm.- % 'ish4 ,smiles.- % @eep 'ishing % could find some secrets to ma@e it easier for myself. :nd
the only secrets % can come up 'ith are 'or@ing half;time ,C7 <ods.- and being really4 li@e4 noJ ,C7 =;hm.- Eust barely4 you @no'4 paying rent and ,C7 =;hm.food and so forth and so on. ,C7 =hm.- But4 % do @no' ho' to do that ,pauses- and that may be 'hat % decide to do. C (7 %t5s one possible option at any rate. =hm. S 37 But it seems li@e a real limited lifestyle. C 37 %t is clear to me from the4 from the tears that came up the first that4 that4 uh4 this is something you feel a lot of concern about4 isn5t itB S 7 9h4 % feel %5m t'o things ,crying-. :ll alone ,C7 =hm.- and some'hat doomed to fail. 6Carl7 I think& at this part& she was feeling& u$& uh& ,uite discouraged after following a "ery good plan. #o$e of the responses along here are al$ost $echanical& like& u$& $y saying that s another option. But then when I do pick up on the& uh& feeling that she had e)hibited at the first& it& uh& brings up fresh all of the feeling that s& uh& stirred up around that. %nd& uh& I think $y response shows that I $ doing what I& what I custo$arily try to do. It is to li"e in the client s e)perience and to feel whate"er she s feeling. This is the i$portant thing to really go with the client into whate"er feelings there are. %nd here I really go with her into her sadness. %t ti$es I& uh& feel al$ost as though I $ speaking for the client. %nd to $e that s& u$& the relationship is good at those ti$es. I feel as though& uh& I $ in the client s world. I $ saying things that she could be saying. %nd& uh& when she says& -That s right. it shows I ha"e been right where she s e)periencing it.8 C 7 =hm. =hm. =hm.
S !7 :nd4 uh4 ,clears throat- doomed to fail4 not that % 'ill die or ,C7 =hm.- anything. %
thin@ doomed to fail and to be there for my children ,C7 =hm. =hm.- in a positi&e4 cheerful4 ,C7 =hm.- 'arm4 lo&ing 'ay. ,C7 =hm. =hm.- :nd being a single parent4 li@e % 'ill be ,C7 =hm.- their support system to a large e?tent. ,C7 =hm.- :nd it scares me to thin@ of their main support as being e?hausted ,C7 =hm.- and irritated ,C7 =hm.- and ,C7 =hm.- J ,/ seconds pause.C /7 "ou Eust feel4 K% may not be able to ma@e it. % may be doomed ,Syl&ia smiles and nods.- to failure by the &ery circumstances.L S +7 Right. ,<ods.- ,C7 =hm.- , 3 second pause.- :nd tal@ing about it this 'ay % feel t'o 'ays7 Li@e4 K9h c5mon Syl&ia. E&erybody else is doing it too.L :nd on the other hand4 li@e4 you5re 'illing to sit here and tal@ ,laughs- about it 'ith me ,C7 =hm.- and % appreciate that. ,Voice brea@s.C +7 =hm. =hm. But you don5t ha&e to Eust tell yourself4 K9h4 buc@ up4 you can do it.L %t5s4 it gi&es you a good chance to reallyJ S *7 ,Ta@es 0leene? and 'ipes eyes.- Right. Aell4 % do do that4 KBuc@ up4 you can do it.L %5ll do that plenty. But % don5t get much opportunity to4 ,C7 <ods.- to be sad 'ith somebody about it. ,C7 "eah.- Fo' hard it ,C7 "eah.- seems. ,Crying.C *7 "eah. "eah. That5s the thing isn5t itB That to be all alone4 'ith no support from anybody4 it sounds li@eJ S )7 Aell4 % mean ,C7 % meanJ- there are people that ,C7 "eah4 % @no' butJ- care about me. ,C7 ButJ- There5s4 li@e4 no financial ,C7 "eah.- support. ,C7 =hm.:nd it5s not li@e %5ll ha&e my mother ne?t door4 ,C7 =hm.- or something li@e that. C )7 "ou5ll be alone 'ith a hea&y burden and it is a sad prospect really. S .7 ,<ods head.- ,#ause / seconds.- %t feels sad. ,C7 =hm. =hm. =hm.- :nd % getJ
'hen %4 ,pauses- % depress myself by thin@ing4 KAell4 oh4 sure % can gi&e up my children.L :nd % thin@4 KAell4 % 'on5t do that.L Gm4 %5m seeing it as a blac@ or 'hite thing ,C7 =hm.- and % @no' that5s not reality. C .7 ,<ods.- But it feels li@e reality. That either you5d ha&e to gi&e up your children or4 or else ,S7 =hm.- ma@e a go of it. S 27 But then % also feel suspicious of myself. Li@e4 KAell4 Syl&ia4 you5re used to so much of getting your needs met.L Li@e4 going out at night sometimes4 ,C7 =hm.um4 ha&ing friends4 ,C7 =hm.- and4 and ha&ing a social life and not being o&ertired. ,C7 =hm.- :nd then % see myself as pampered. ,C7 <ods and smiles.- :nd4 uh4 if % Eust 'asn5t so pampered4 ,laughs- things 'ould be a lot better. C 27 That5s 'hen you @ind of scold yourself4 ,7 Gh;huh.- really. =hm. =hm. =hm. ,pause . seconds- So that you really feel you5re gonna be hemmed in by that. % mean4 your life is gonna be constricted ,S7 =hm.- a good deal. : lot of the things you5&e been used to you Eust 'on5t ha&e. S (7 :nd 'ant for myself. C (7 :nd 'ant for yourself. ,S7 <ods.- Gh;huh. S !37 "eah4 that5s right. C !37 So really it does loo@ li@e a &ery tough period4 doesn5t itB S ! 7 "ep. %t does. ,pause / seconds- But4 % li@e being able to be sad and complain about ho' terrible %5m afraid it5s going to be then % canJ li@e no' %5m feeling li@e4 and %5m e?cited too4 you @no'4 about facing it. C ! 7 Sort of a ne' phase of your lifeB %s itJ it has e?citement as 'ell as dread in it4 % guess.
S ! 7 ,<ods.- "eah about seeing 'hat it 'ill be li@e4 ,C7 =hm.- in fact. ,C7 =hm.,Sighs-. 6Syl&ia7 I s$iled ,C7 =hm .- a little bit there and I think that I was feeling like a relief of tension or& u$& I don t know how to describe it but a relief of& of after crying and feeling sad and then ha"ing that feeling pass ,C7 =hm. to something else.8 6Carl7 It s& uh& it s "ery often true that if& uh& I go with a client into sad or desperate or negati"e feelings that /clears throat0 then that satisfies that aspect of their e)perience and then they can $o"e on to so$ething else. #o that it s "ery co$$on to ha"e positi"e feelings& uh& follow& uh& "ery& uh& negati"e ones. %lso I $ight 1ust co$$ent here that& uh& these pauses see$ed "ery brief to $e& uh& but to so$e therapists& to so$e counselors& uh& a pause is "ery hard to bear. I don t find pauses hard to bear. This was her silence and I was willing to let her ha"e it and to speak up when she was ready. 2uring those pauses& I $ "ery ,uiet inside. 3$& I really a$ ,uite content to wait. 3h& so$eti$es I a$ re"iewing what she has been e)periencing. 3$& but I $ not& uh& I $ not trying to look ahead& and I $ not thinking about the process. I $ 1ust trying to feel it as it $ight be going on in her.8 C ! 7 %t 'ill be a ne' ad&enture but it5s one that4 uh4 you feel different 'ays about. S !!7 =hm. "eah. So that5s4 that5s 'hat % thin@ about the most4 in terms of a problem area. ,C7 =hm. =hm.- Li@e4 the ,smiles- 'ay % started crying it seemed li@e % Eust couldn5t 'ait to get here and cry about it. ,C7 =hm. =hm. =hm.- %t 'as a little dramatic that 'ay. C !!7 ICos it isJ'ell4 it is4 it is a real sad prospect. :nd one4 % guess4 that you don5t let out too much to other people4 the sad side of it.
S !/7 Right4 % don5t do that ,C7 <ods.- &ery 'ell. %4 ,C7 =hm.- % am busy being strong ,C7 =hm.- unconsciously. 9r %5m also busy being depressed. ,C7 =hm.- ,Syl&ia smiles- %5&e learned 'ell. % belie&e being sad and scared are more dealing 'ith ,C7 =hm. =mm.- the problem. C !/7 =hm. "eah being4 being frightened of 'hat you5re ta@ing on and sad of 'hat you5re losing for yourself. ,S7 <ods.- Those are t'o &ery real ,S7 Fmm.- feelings. S !+7 :nd %4 ,pauses- % also thin@ that part of my fear and e?citement is that %5ll be doing something different. Li@e4 %5&e ne&er 'or@ed ,C7 <ods.- in4 in my profession ,C7 =hm. =hm.- and been li@e a confident4 ,C7 =hm.- single 'oman 'ith young children ,C7 =hm.- 'ho are doing 'ell. ,C7 =hm.- :nd it5s li@e4 um4 that5s 'hat % 'ant for myself. ,C7 =hm.- ,Syl&ia laughs.C !+7 %t5s a goal you5&e been 'or@ing to'ard. ,S7 <ods.- =hm. ,/ seconds pause.- % 'onder sort of ho' do your children feel about thisB 6Carl7 4ere I si$ply& u$& followed $y i$pulse because I found $yself thinking about her children& I raised that ,uestion with her. 3h& whether that was a good $o"e or not fro$ a counseling point of "iew is& uh& hard to say until we see what happens ne)t. 5ou $ight think in "iewing this that& uh& I had& uh& thought about what was going on and decided& -4ere s a& uh& here s a piece that s $issing. 4ere s so$ething she hasn t talked about.L %ctually that s not the process that goes on in $e. 3h& I try to be open to whate"er wells up in $e and to say that& to& to act $ore& uh& fro$ $y inner feelings then fro$& fro$ thinking about the process.8 S !*7 Aell4 my youngest son 'ants me to go 'or@ ,C7 <ods.- so that 'e can ha&e more ,C7 =hm.- money and so that he can ha&e more spending money. :nd4 uh4 my
oldest son has not4 at this time4 agreed to li&e 'ith me yet. ,C7 =mm.- But %5m preparing ,C7 =hm.- 'ith the hopes that he 'ill at that time. ,C7 =hm.- Fe is li&ing 'ithJ he 'ill be li&ing 'ith me the rest of the summer. C !*7 =hm. So that5s another ne' part of theJ S !)7 :nd my oldest son and % ha&e a &ery strained relationship. Fe hasn5t been li&ing 'ith me the last t'o years. :nd so that5s gonna be another difficult part of 'hat %5m tal@ing about ,C7 =hm.- is4 um4 at the same time needing and 'anting to impro&e my relationship 'ith Senate ,C7 =hm.- and hoping there5ll be money for counseling. %5m hoping ,C7 =hm.- that 'e can do 'or@ 'ith a third party or in ,C7 =hm.- a4 uh4 family group of some sort ,C7 =hm.- because % belie&e that 'e5ll need help. ,C7 =hm.- :nd4 uh4 so that5s4 that4 that part of the fall or the coming year scares me too about feeling so alienated from Senate. C !)7 KAill he4 'ill he really accept me as a motherBL 6Syl&ia7 +ell& he says& -+ill he really accept as a $other. to $e that is showing $e he is listening to what I $ saying. /C: 6h$.0 %nd that e"en& u$& /pauses0 I don t know if it was or not at that ti$e but it could be "ery easily ha"e been a& a helper to $e to help $e focus with what I was& u$& wrestling with in ter$s of understanding or clarifying for $yself what I was thinking about it.8 S !.7 ,#hone rings- :s his mother4 ,C7 "eah.- as someone 'ho lo&es him ,C7 =hm.- and cares about him. C !.7 So that5s a concern to ya4 too. S !27 ,<ods.- ,/ seconds pause.- =hm. :nd can 'e get alongB Can 'e li&e togetherB Ae ha&en5t li&ed together4 and he5s li&ed in a &ery different lifestyle.
C !27 KCan 'e really form a relationship of the @ind that both of us 'ould li@eBL S !(7 #ardonB C !(7 "our as@ing yourself4 KCan 'e really form a relationship that both of us 'ill li@eBL S /37 ,<ods.- =hm. "eah4 and be happy and4 ,C7 =hm.- yeahJ ,2 seconds pause.,Smiles.- That5s an importantJ % hadn5t thought of that on my o'n4 but you mentioning my children ,C7 =hm.- brings up the part about Senate4 'hich is a &ery important part of 'hat % thin@ about. ,C7 =hm.- :nd %5m happy %5ll ha&e him 'ith us ,C7 <ods.- during the summer and 'e5ll be able to ha&e time. C /37 "ou can get a start on that. =hm. S / 7 =hm. "eah. ,C7 =hm.- Ahen %5m not 'or@ing4 ,smiles and nods- for e?ample. ,#ause !+ seconds.- Aell4 % felt a'fully rigid about this upcoming filming. ,C7 <ods.- % felt it in my body a lot. :nd % feel4 % felt more rela?ed since 'e started. C / 7 =hm. =hm. ,#ause + seconds.- %t5s a really difficult thing. S /!7 =hm. ,#auses.- Right4 and Eust the same it5s e?citing ,C7 =hm.- to come ,C7 =hm.- on this trip and to see you again ,C7 =hm.- and it5s also frightening a lot. ,C7 =hm.- "a @no'4 'ho5s gonna see itB :nd 'hat are they gonna thin@B ,C7 =hm.- :nd 'hat5s it gonna loo@ li@eB ,C7 =hm.- :m %4 am % being hard on myself or am % being good to myselfB % don5t @no' ; to put myself in this position ,C7 "eah.- is 'hat % mean. C /!7 "eah. ,#ause.- "ou ha&e Cuite a little of conflict about4 KShould % really be doing thisB Aho4 'ho 'ill see itB ,S7 <ods.- Ahat 'ill they sayB :m % 'iseBL S //7 Gh;huh. Ahat5s it gonna beB Ahat5s the finished proEect4 gonna beB ,C7 =hm.,Clears throat.- Aill % e&er see itB ,C7 =hm.- ,Both smile.- , 3 second pause.-
6Syl&ia7 To put $yself in a position& u$& where I ll be7 I was disclosing "ery pri"ate things about $yself where other people& I ha"e no idea who all& $ay be "iewing this and $aking their own 1udg$ents& and& u$& e)posing $yself& /clears throat0 that see$s hard and& uh& being good to $yself& being willing to go through the hardness for the opportunity of learning and e)perience of Carl. That& I think& is being "ery good for $yself.8 6Carl7 #yl"ia has been ,uite aware of the fil$ing but has had what I belie"e is a "ery good attitude toward it. 3h& that she hopes that by being as natural as she can in the inter"iews& she ll be $aking a contribution to the counseling field. Both in the inter"iews a year ago and clearly in this inter"iew& the relationship with $e has been "ery i$portant to #yl"ia.8 C //7 ,#ause 3 seconds.- Loo@s to me as though your eyes are saying something4 but % don5t @no' 'hat. ,Smiles and laughs.S /+7 Aell4 %5m thin@ing about ho' mo&ed %5&e been 'hen %5&e heard your &oice a fe' times o&er the past year. ,C7 Fmm.- :nd no' %5m here. C /+7 That made aJ S /*7 % 'anna ta@e it in H ,C7 =hm.- being here. C /*7 =hm. ,#ause / seconds.- % guess you5re saying that % mean a good deal to you. S /)7 Aell4 this time 'ith you. ,<ods.- "es4 you4 mhm. ,Smiles- ,#ause ! seconds- %5m thin@ing about 'hat % 'ant to tal@ about or %5m feeling @ind of empty right no' about tal@ing. ,#ause * seconds.C /)7 Can you tell me 'hat % do mean to youB S /.7 ,Smiles.- "es4 % can. ,#ause 2 seconds.- Aell4 ,#ause + seconds- % thin@ the best
thing that % li@e to thin@ about you is that as % understand your 'ritings4 % ha&e not read &ery much that you5&e 'ritten4 but that you ha&e4 that you li&e 'hat you 'rite about. :nd my understanding of a lot of popular 'riters are they 'rite one thing and someho' they Eust don5t Cuite li&e that. They li&e something &ery different. :nd so % thin@ of you as4 ,laughs- um4 ,pauses- 'onderful in that 'ay and not4 uhJ ,#ause / seconds.C /.7 But 'hat does that mean to youB S /27 ,Sighs.- ,#ause / seconds.- Aell that it5s 'hat % 'ould li@e to be more7 ,C7 =hm. =hm.- to ha&e &alues and be able to4 to do them ,pauses- and to li&e them. C /27 ,#ause + seconds.- "ou5d li@e to ha&e a good match bet'een your life ,S7 =hm.and 'hat you belie&e ,S7 =hm. =hm.- and &alue. S /(7 ,#ause / seconds.- :nd 'hat % also sense about you is4 uh4 li@e KpatienceL isn5t the right 'ord4 but % see you as being comfortable 'ith yourself so much so that 'hate&er % or anyone else says or does4 doesn5t ,pause / seconds- get you uptight. C /(7 ,Laughs.S +37 ,Laughing.- :nd maybe it does. ,C7 =hm.- Sometimes it probably does Icause you5re a human being. C +37 %t certainly does4 that5s right. S + 7 But it doesn5t seem li@e it does ,C7 =hm. =hm.- too much. 6Carl: I really was not ,uite accepting of her& uh& of her feeling that& uh& in the relationship I clearly was not uptight. It strikes $e that what she s saying here is& uh& practically a& uh& state$ent of the& uh& attitudes that& uh& we ha"e found $ost effecti"e in therapy. #he s saying that she e)periences $e as being genuine. 3h& she e)periences $e
as caring about her. 3h& and I think it s ,uite clear that she feels that I understand her e$pathically. %nd those are the ele$ents that& uh& both in e)perience and in research ha"e shown up as being the $ost& uh& potent ele$ents in a counseling relationship.8 S +!7 :nd % li@e that. % 'ould li@e to be more present ,C7 <ods.- and4 and comfortable 'ith myself so that other people4 including my children and so forth and so on4 could do 'hat they do4 and that % could be able to be a source of support and not be personally threatened ,C7 =hm. =hm. =hm.- by this little thing and that little thing. C +!7 :nd that4 that has meaning to me. "ou5d li@e to be sufficiently accepting of yourself4 that then you can be comfortable 'ith 'hat your children do or 'hat other people do ,S7 <ods.- and not4 uh4 ,S7 =hm.- not feel frightened4 ,S7 Fmm.thro'n off balance. S +/7 ,<ods.- =hm. :nd %5&e enEoyed through the year in the fe' letters that %5&e gotten from you4 your 'armth4 and interest in me4 in my life. %5&e li@ed that a lot from ,C7 =hm.- you. :nd at the time those letters 'ere 'ritten 'e had no plans to ,C7 <o.- ma@e a mo&ie ,C7 <o.- or all that stuff so that 'as really enEoyable. ,#ause * seconds.- 1o you feel ans'ered 'ellB C +/7 "eah. =hm. =hm. ,#ause * seconds.- :nd %5m interested enough in you to @no' of any other things in your life that are important to you or that4 uh4 that are difficult for ya4 or 'hate&er. S ++7 ,#ause * seconds.- Aell4 %5d li@e to go one of t'o 'ays. % don5t @no' 'hich yet. Gh4 one 'ay 'ould be bac@ to the single 'or@ing mother business. %5m not sure 'here 'e might go 'ith that4 but % @no' it5s a big thing for me. :nd another 'ay
'ould be to go 'ith the difficulty % see myself in ha&ing 'ith my relationships 'ith men. ,C7 =hm. =mm.- ,#ause / seconds.- % do so much analyDing ,smilesthat %4 % feel li@e thro'ing up my hands. KAhat5s the use of e&en tal@ing about itBL But %J C ++7 But you do ha&e ,S7 %J- difficulties inJ S +*7 "eah. %5ll4 %5ll go 'ith the men. ,C7 9@ay.- :nd that5s the most frightening thing for me to tal@ about ,C7 =hm.- on this film because people that % @no' 'ill probably be seeing this ,C7 =hm.- and men that % @no'. ,+ second pause.- % see myself4 uh4 and this4 this is real scattered in my mind. ,Sighs.- Scattered4 ,smilesand loo@ing e&ery 'hich 'ay. ,C7 =hm.- Aell4 % see myself ma@ing acCuaintance 'ith men4 many men4 % mean not Eust one man ,C7 =hm.- and spending some time 'ith that person. :nd then4 um4 feeling that they lost interest in me or that % turned them off. :nd % tell myself things li@e4 K"ou can5t e?pect e&ery man you meet to fall in lo&e 'ith you.L ,C7 =hm.- :nd4 um4 let5s see4 ,smiles- 'hat elseB ,C7 But you feel that youJ- 9h and then %5ll tell myself all these reasonableJ K9f course this man doesn5t li@e me because %5m this and %5m that and.JL But4 % don5t &ery often feel the disappointment and confusion about KAell % had a good time 'ith that man.L :nd it seems to me li@e he must not ha&e had a good time 'ith me because % didn5t hear from him again4 or % did and things 'ent such and such a 'ay. :nd4 uhJ C +*7 Sounds li@e it seems @ind of mysterious to you. ,S7 Gh;huh.- Ahy the men lose interest in you. S +)7 Gh;huh. :nd then % ha&e feedbac@ from one person4 one man friend of mine4 'ho
says that % create4 ya @no' % turn people off4 men4 myself. :nd so it5s li@e it5s all4 it5s all my doing any'ay. ,C7 =hm.- But % ha&e felt lately impotent about ho' to4 ,#ause . seconds.- ho' to ha&e a successful long rel; long lasting relationship 'ith a man. Successful4 % don5t mean perfect4 % mean ,C7 "eah. =hm.- 'or@able. ,C7 =hm.- :nd4 uh4 % thin@ 'or@able is successful ,C7 =hm.- these days. ,Smiles."eah. C +)7 Aell4 that5s a part of your life in 'hich you Eust ha&en5t had the @ind of4 um4 success that you 'ish you had had. =hm. =hm. :n important lac@ in some 'ay. S +.7 ,<ods.- <o' %5m remembering 'e tal@ed about this before. C +.7 : little bit. S +27 : little bit4 right. ,Sighs.- ,#ause . seconds.- :nd % do that4 the @ind of analyDing that ILAell % ha&e all these habits li@e4 uh4 %4 um4 % li@e to be by myself4 %5m not real generous and outgoing ,C7 <ods.- and ta@ing care of4 of people that % meet.L :nd the 'oman that % li&e 'ith says that she doesn5t see me doing that at all li@e4 K9h come in %5ll fi? you dinner4 %5ll do this4 %5ll do that.L Li@e % don5t do that. ,C7 <ods- :nd4 and so %5m confused about do % need to do that to be in a close relationshipB %t doesn5t seem to me li@e % should ,C7 =hm.- need to sell out to be um enEoyed and 'anted. C +27 % gather 'hat you mean by Kselling outL is that if you4 if you really put yourself out in @ind of an artificial 'ay4 you don5t 'ant that. %s that 'hat you5re sayingB 6Carl7 This is a good e)a$ple of a client e)periencing confusion. %nd& uh& she tries to be& to talk about it rationally. But it s clear that what she is e)periencing is 1ust confusion itself. I feel this could ha"e been a better response had I really heard her feeling that she
is powerless in& her& uh& relationships with $en that she si$ply doesn t ha"e what it takes to build a workable relationship. I belie"e this feeling that& uh& -I ha"e so$e funda$ental lack in $yself. is one of the co$$onest feelings that one $eets in counseling situations. %l$ost all of us at ti$es feel -there $ust be so$e terrible flaw in $e or I wouldn t ha"e such proble$s in $y life.L8 S +(7 "es4 if % do all these things for a man4 so then he5ll 'ant me. C +(7 =hm. 0ind of buying his fa&or4 ,S7 <ods. =hm.- as it 'ere. :nd you Eust don5t see yourself doing that. 1on5t 'anna do that. S *37 9r 'anting to do it. ,C7 =hm. =hm.- ,S7 <ods.- :nd then %J another Cuestion4 hard Cuestion4 % as@ myself is4 KAell4 %5m choosing men to relate to that don5t @no' ho' to gi&e in the 'ay that % 'ant to be gi&en to.L ,C7 =hm. =hm.- :nd then % try ,smiles- to figure that one out. ,C7 =hm.- K9h simple4 %5m choosing4 that Eust means % need to choose differently.L ,C7 =hm.- :nd then % loo@ around and it doesn5t seem so simple. C *37 =hm. "ou say you5re trying to analyDe and analyDe and analyDe 'hat4 K'hat lac@ in meBL or Kyou @no' 'hat lac@ in meB5 % guess your as@ing yourself mostly4 KAhat lac@ in me @eeps4 ,S7 Fmm.- @eeps me from ha&ing a lasting ,S7 =hm.relationship 'ith menBL S * 7 :nd one thing that no' %5m recalling that really frightened me 'as % 'as tal@ing; % li&ed 'ith my husband for eight years ,C7 <ods.- and % felt reEected by him and % left him. ,C7 <ods.- :nd % left him for a man % 'as &ery much in lo&e 'ith that %5&e been &ery close to ,C7 =hm.- for fi&e years. But he5s alsoJ li@e4 % mo&ed a'ay from him but % felt left ,smiles- by him also. :nd so this man friend of mine
said to me4 KAell4 'hat5s 'rong 'ith you that you can5t @eep a manBL :nd that4 uh4 that really scared me inside because 'hen % loo@ at the situation in a practical4 sensible 'ay that doesn5t seem li@e reality. ,C7 =hm.- But then % don5t @no' maybe it5s true. C * 7 But that her saying that ,S7 Fe.- he saying that4 ,S7 Gh;huh.- uh4 really does touch something in you. K%s there something 'rong 'ith me ,S7 Gh;huh.- that %J.K S *!7 That % don5t see. ,C7 =hm.- :nd4 and4 uh4 Eust the fact that it touched me so much sho's me that there5s something there. C *!7 =hm. %t4 ,S7 Sighs.- it 'ouldn5t bother you that much4 or you 'ouldn5t thin@ so much about it if there 'asn5t something in you that that refers to. S */7 =hm. ,<ods.- :nd %4 ,sighs- % see my mother that 'ay a lot4 that my mother not being able to ha&e a successful relationship 'ith a man and so that5s been my model andJ ,#ause / seconds- li@e4 'hy can5tJ C */7 "ou5re saying4 K=aybe4 maybe %5m Eust follo'ing the same pattern as my mother.L S *+7 =hm. Aell4 % am in that respect and % don5t li@e it. ,C7 =hm.- :nd %5m not 'illing to do a bunch of crummy stuff that %J ,C7 =hm.- ,#ause ) seconds.- So4 right no' ,smiles- %5m li&ing alone ,C7 =hm.- and %5m not doing any crummy stuff. ,C7 =hm.- :nd % also ha&e some &ery nice relationships. %t5s ,smiles- those shades of blac@ and 'hite. ,#ause 2 seconds.- But % do feel a lot of confusion about building an intimate relationship. ,C7 =hm.- : monogamous type ,C7 =hm. =hm.- or primaryJ C *+7 So you can ha&e good times and all that4 but still there is this nagging Cuestion or these nagging Cuestions4 K:m % Eust follo'ing my mother5s patternBL KAhat is
'rong 'ith me that % don5t ha&e a permanent relationship 'ith a manBL 6Syl&ia: I don t e"er recall feeling like Carl wasn t understanding $e or7 because if I did ha"e that feeling there was so$ething I could do about it right then and there in ter$s of helping hi$ to better understand $e& so then I did feel understood. 4is intention was to "ery $uch to be with $e and& uh& if I got the sense that he wasn t that we could talk about that.8 6Carl7 I think this inter"iew is a good e)a$ple of the fact that& uh& when the relationship is good& the client is able to take $ore and $ore risks. #yl"ia begins with $aterial which is ,uite present in her awareness& and yet by the end of the inter"iew she is dipping into $aterial which she doesn t understand& which she s a little bit fearful of e)pressing. 3h& #he has gone se"eral le"els deeper during the inter"iew and to $e that s& uh& the $ark of a process of therapy that in the long run will be successful. 8erhaps through this whole inter"iew& it s e"ident that& uh& following the client s e)periencing& being a co$panion to the client in whate"er& uh& is going on in her does lead to opening up new& uh& areas of concern& new e)plorations& leads her into new& uh& territories.8
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. %n this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,C- ,Carl Rogers-4 and the client ,S- ,Syl&ia- are numbered for easy reference. Carl Rogers 1emonstrates Client;Centered Therapy Transcription from the Video of the $ilm >Struggle for :cceptanceL Session * 'ith Syl&ia ; (.* 6Source7 Ahiteley4 M. =. , (.*-. The struggle for self'acceptance.8 6Commentaries are typed in brac@ets and italics to distinguish from the actual inter&ie'.8 Carl Commentary 7 6This is $y fifth inter"iew with #yl"ia. The fourth inter"iew had been held on the pre"ious day. 8rior to that there had been the three inter"iews a year earlier. The inter"iew will be shown as it was recorded& but with co$$ents both fro$ #yl"ia and fro$ $yself at points where we felt we wished to clarify what was going on&uh& or to $ake so$e co$$ent about what was going on.8 Carl7 Aell4 'here 'ould you li@e to start this morningB Syl&ia 7 Aell4 uh4 % 'ant to tell you about something that %'&e been thin@ing about and that5s it's a4 a sharing more than ,C7 =;hm.- telling you a problem. ,C7 =;hm.C Commentary !7 6#o often clients and counselors get the feeling that& uh& the relationship is one which $ust be filled only with proble$s. 3h& #yl"ia gi"es a little indication of that& this is 1ust a sharing& it's not a proble$.8 S ,continued-7 :nd that is %5&e Eust recently noticed in myself that %'&e been learning. /#he laughs a little.0 ,C7 =;hm.- :nd that's a big deal. Gh4 % hear people say all the time4 K9h4 %'&e learned so much4 % learned this and % learned that and that 'as such a learning e?perience.L :nd %4 all these years that %'&e been gro'n up4 % ha&en't felt any learning4 and % feel4 KAell4 'hat did you learn and ho' did you @no' that you learned itBL :nd it 'as a mystery to me. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd Eust the last fe' 'ee@s4 or actually %'&e been realiDing in the last year mainly is that %5&e learned some things ,C7 =;hm.- and % @no' %'&e learned them and %4 % @no' that4 o@ay4 that %'m at this point and 'ith a certain situation or idea and that si? months ago or three months ago it 'as different. ,C7 Gh;huh.- :nd so %'m feeling my learning and that's really e?citing. C Commentary /7 6% relationship should be one in which good feelings ha"e 1ust as $uch place as bad feelings& and here she's bringing out so$e "ery positi"e feelings about Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 39
herself& which is a healthy and "alid part of a counseling relationship. It's always e)citing to $e to& uh& hear a client telling of positi"e steps which& uh& he or she has been taking& and here #yl"ia sounds confident as she's doing so$ething that she has decided to do in her own way& not necessarily following all the books& but doing what she feels and e)periences is right.8 C 7 :nd it5s the a'areness of it that's ne'. ,S7 Gh;huh. "eah.- That you're beginning to realiDe4 KFey4 % am different in this respect4 ,S7 Gh;huh.- %'&e learned something.L S!7 %'&e changed. ,C7 Gh;huh.- :nd % can see the difference and feel the difference. ,C7 Gh;huh.- "eah. C!7 Ahat are some of those differencesB S/7 Aell4 /s$all laugh0 um4 %4 %'&e made a decision to be more strict 'ith my children ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- and to4 uh4 to listen to them but decide that %'m their mother and % @no' many things they don't4 and that % 'ill ma@e many more decisions than ,C7 =;hm.- %'&e made in the past. :nd uh; C/7 =;hm4 m;hm. Sounds as though you feel a bit stronger that 'ay. S+7 "es. :nd and %'&e been trying it. ,C7 Gh4 m;hm.- Trying being the more strict person and it's 'or@ing beautifully. ,C7 Gh;huh.- Gh4 they at first they4 you @no'4 ha&e their little resistance or 'hate&er it is but then 'e go on 'ith the program4 'hich is my program more4 ,C7 =;hm.- and % feel a lot better about that as being uh uh helping children to adEust to the 'orld. C+7 % mean4 sounds4 sounds li@e you feel more li@e a gro'n;up mother. S*7 =;hm. Capable. ,C7 =;hm.- 9f ma@ing appropriate decisions. ,C7 =;hm.- $or them. :nd another area is se?. :nd4 uh4 and %4 %'&e done a lot of things in the past year4 in the past mainly year that % ha&en't done before. That is4 %'&e had intercourse 'ith a fe' different men ,C7 =;hm.- and put myself in situations 'here before % 'as absolutely un'illing to do because of my fears and4 and %'&e learned some things about myself. Li@e % @no' a lot more right no' today about 'hat @ind of se?ual relationship4 'hat @ind of intimate relationships that % 'ant to ha&e 'ith men and that feels good. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- Beca ... and4 um4 and it only came through4 uh4 ris@ing % mean there 'as no4 it only became through trying things out4 there 'as no amount ,C7 Gh;huh4 uh;huh.- There 'as no amount of4 of therapy or reading or thin@ing or tal@ing ,C7 =;hm.- that helped me to learn those things4 ,C7 =;hm.but it 'as feeling strong enough 'ithin myself that % can ta@e chances. C*7 So ris@ing has been the road to learning ,S7 "eah.- in the se?ual area. S)7 Gh;huh. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd it is 'ith my children ,C7 =;hm.- and it is 'ith relating to people in many 'ays4 not Eust se?ually. /#he s$iles.0 ,C7 =;hm.- 9ther 'ays too. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 40
,C7 =;hm.C Commentary +7 6#yl"ia is showing a lot of risking beha"ior. #he's risking a good deal to talk about things like this on fil$. But what's $ore i$portant is that she has co$e to the point in her own life where& where she reali9es that her own e)perience is the best guide for her& not books& not therapy& not anything outside of herself. It is her own e)perience fro$ which she can learn& and here she is learning in a "ery sensiti"e and& uh& personal area and is willing to share that with us.8 S) ,continued-7 Reaching out to people and approaching strangers and4 uh ... C)7 Ta@ing all @inds of ris@s that you hadn't before. S.7 Some. =ore4 ,C7 =;hm.- 'hich4 % mean %4 % don't @no' about all @inds. ,C7 "eah.Puite a fe'4 and it's been e?citing ,C7 =;hm.- and hard. C.7 :nd % guess that leads to a4 uh4 to a deeper @ind of learning4 or at any rate4 a learning that you feel more sure of. % guess4 % get a sense of assurance in 'hat you're tal@ing about. :n assurance in you. C Commentary *7 6:ne thing that has been true with #yl"ia in e"ery inter"iew we'"e had is that she thinks carefully about what she says& she thinks carefully about what I say& and when what I say is not correct& doesn't $atch her e)perience& she's ,uite willing to correct $e. #he is "ery precise in both describing her own feelings and also in $aking sure that $y response to the$ is also accurate.8 S27 Aell4 yes. "es and no. ,C7 Gh;huh.- :nd % ... % ... feel more im... li@e %4 % 'as saying before4 % feel more immature and more and %'m more a'are of my immaturity. ,C7 =;hm.- They're both4 uh4 a part of each other. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd uh4 does that ma@e4 does that4 % guess %'m thin@ing that it Eust sounds craDy. C27 <o4 % don't S(7 To say that % feel more mature because % @no' %'m ho'4 % @no' more about ho' immature % am. C(7 Gh;huh. <o4 that ma@es a lot of sense to me. S Commentary 7 6I was surprised at what I said $ade sense to hi$. I think that I thought that it $ade sense to $e& but that doesn't necessarily $ean it would $ake sense to other people. I $ean& it $ade in $y own syste$ of what was said. It felt good that he could understand $e and he knew I that& that it $ade sense to hi$ too.8 C Commentary )7 6It's i$portant to #yl"ia to $ake sure that she's accurately understood. Can anyone understand how she can be $ore $ature by being aware of her i$$aturity; +ell& to $e& that's ,uite understandable& but it's clear that she wants to $ake certain that Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 41
$y understanding e)tends to that degree.8 S 37 %t does. C 37 Gh;huh. Because you5re4 you're uh more a'are of all aspects of yourself ,S7 =; hm.- and it sounds a more acceptant of them too. K"es4 %'m mature in certain 'ays ,S7 =;hm.- and here's some 'ays % @no' %'m immature.L S 7 :nd % didn't @no' that before4 ,C7 Gh;huh.- or %4 % @ne' % felt uncomfortable that % didn't understand it. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- But that's related to something %'&e been thin@ing about4 % thin@4 about being here 'ith you and4 uh4 and telling myself t'o things. ,C7 =;hm.- 9ne is4 K9h4 you're Eust a4 %'m Eust a dependent personality4L you @no'4 Carl Rogers or blah;blah;blah;blah4 don't4 % don't run my o'n life. ,C7 =;hm.- % go for help a lot. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd then % tell myself %5&e al'ays been so strong and so together and ha&ing e&erything so 'or@ed out in my head that % don't allo' myself to4 to be helpless in a situation 'here it might be ,C7 =;hm.- good for me. ,C7 =;hm.- Li@e right no' here 'ith you4 % 'ould li@e to be more helpless4 'hich to me means open4 % thin@. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- To 'hat to us and4 uh4 and % see myself being4 uh4 together and not being helpless. ,C7 =;hm.-
S Commentary !7 6I think at that point I was feeling concern that I was 1ust gonna go to another session of being all in control of things and and rattling on and on. I probably $ade a conscious decision that that I ha"e to do so$ething to& to break that and& uh& which was talk about it& talk about $y fear. 6y fear was or concern that I wouldn't learn anything.8 C 7 Sounds as though you4 you &oice that as a conflict4 but it sounds as though really you're more on the4 on the side of the second aspect that4 uh4 uh4 to be open and4 and in that sense helpless and &ulnerable4 % guess might be a possible term too4 um4 is something you4 you really belie&e that's 'hat you are4 rather than that you're a totally dependent person and really helpless and ha&e to4 ha&e to run for help. % sort of get the feeling you li@e this aspect of you that is able to be 'ith me in a 'ay that is4 uh4 more open4 more &ulnerable perhaps.
S !7 Aell4 % li@e it and % also scold myself for being dependent4 ,C7 =;hm.- so there's C !7 There are the t'o sides4 uh;huh. S /7 there's something missing in the middle to connect4 ,C7 =;hm.- and % it seems li@e you might ha&e been tal@ing about that and % still didn't hear it. C /7 /Nods.0 =;hm. ,S7 =m.- So really to get it more accurately4 you scold yourself for for being dependent4 for4 for 'anting ,S7 =;hm.- to be here4 for e?ample4 'ith me4 ,S7 =;hm.- and yet at the same time you4 you feel. uh4 'ell4 that's good4 %4 % really li@e that4 but 'here's the4 'here's the integration of those t'o4 uh4 points of &ie'. ,S7 =;hm.- /#yl"ia nods.0 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 42
S Commentary /7 6That see$ed to $e like a "ery e)cellent& u$& not paraphrase& but when he& you know& tells $e back /C: 6'h$.0 what he thinks I $eant& it& u$& solidified what I e)pressed in the pre"ious co$$ent about that there was so$ething $issing. It $ade $ore sense to $e.8 S +7 That's right. /s$all laugh0 /pause of < seconds0 =ay % hold your hands againB C +7 Sure. =;hm. /They lean closer and clasp hands and re$ain holding hands.0 S *7 To feel that old feeling. C *7 9@ay. S Commentary +7 6+hen we did that fil$ing in %=====& we held each others' hands the whole ti$e& and I i$agine that it occurred $e that it $ight be good to do that again. I feel good. %t that ti$e& I& I wanted to get away fro$ being in $y head so co$pletely the whole ti$e& e)periencing.8 C Commentary .7 6I felt "ery co$fortable during this holding of hands. 3h& I'$ re$inded of a friend of $ine who said that he did eye therapy and& uh& in a sense that's what this was. :ur eyes were "ery $uch in contact& and& uh& I think as $uch was going on at a non'"erbal way as in a "erbal way. It was a close relationship& and we both e)perienced it that way.8 S )7 /Clears throat.0 /pause of >> seconds0 % 'ould li@e to be less4 uh4 less strong right no'. % 'ould li@e to gi&e myself the gift of not ha&ing to be sensible ,C7 =;hm.and reasonable and ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- :lso the protection4 ,C7 =;hm.- protect4 ,C7 =;hm.- protect myself. C )7 =;hm4 m;hm4 m;hm. Really 'ould be gi&ing yourself a gift if you could Eust @ind of let go ,S7 =;hm.- and not4 uh4 not be so ,S7 =;hm.- competent ,S7 =;hm.and able. ,S7 =m.- /#he nods.0 /pause of ? seconds0 C Commentary 27 6It see$s clear that the reason she wants to hold $y hands is that she wants to e)perience so$ething that is "ery frightening to her& na$ely to drop her co$petent& reasonable& strong self and let herself be so$e of the weakness and "ulnerability that she is.8 S .7 :nd % thin@ it helps to touch , C7 =;hm.- ,Carl nods.- you4 to4 to4 to let go of the shoulds4 of my ,small laughC .7 =;hm4 m;hm. :nd you feel some contact and maybe you can say4 KAell4 maybe % don't ha&e to be so strong4 so ,S7 =;hm4 mm.- =aybe % can Eust let go more.L S 27 ,pause of * seconds- "es. ,small laugh- ,She sighs.- , pause of !! seconds- % Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 43
'ant to get a'ay from all4 um4 my rationaliDing right no' this minute4 and % don't @no' ho' to do that ,C7 =;hm.- e?cept to shut up. ,Carl nods.- ,C7 =;hm4 m; hm.- :nd4 ,pause of * seconds- so it's not li@e % ha&e so much a desire to sit and not tal@ and loo@ in your eyes as % ha&e a desire to not be the 'ay % am all the time. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd % don't @no' yet ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- 'hat else to do. ,C7 =; hm.C Commentary (7 @In the inter"iews that we held a year ago& the silences were "ery long and #yl"ia found a& a great deal of security and& uh& see$ed to profit a great deal fro$ holding $y hands during the inter"iew& and here she& uh& returns to the pattern of a year ago. It's another indication of the fact that these inter"iews with her perhaps rest $ore solidly on 1ust the fact of the relationship than they do e"en on the content of what& uh& she's saying and talking about.* C 27 Fa&e to be @ind of silent4 to let go of that rational and rationaliDing part of you. S (7 =;hm. ,pause of !* seconds- %t feels easier to focus on4 uh4 in this position that %'m in no' 'ith you % feel more focused4 ,C7 =;hm.- ,Fe nods.- yeah. C (7 :re there any things that sort of come bubbling upB S!37 "eah4 % @no' it's something % 'ant to tal@ about. ,She smiles.C!37 9@ay. =;hm. ,pause of 3 seconds- ,She smiles.- But it's not easy4 huh. S! 7 <o4 it's not easy and %'m enEoying the richness of feeling ,C7 =;hm.- your hands this 'ay and letting go of some more of4 of the camera business ,C7 =;hm.- and the ... ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- :nd4 uh4 and the fear about bringing up something that ,laughs- ,clears throat- and @no'ing that in about fifteen minutes it'll all seem4 um4 ,sighs4 smiling- % don't @no' not Cuite as serious. ,C7 =;hm.S Commentary *7 @It 1ust had to take its own ti$e for $e to get to where I could feel like I could say the words that I needed to say. It was al$ost like waiting and 1ust like& uh& you know& what else is new while I'$ waiting; Aor so$ething that took a natural process that it had to take.* C Commentary 37 @If anyone has a doubt about the "alue of silences& it should be re$o"ed by this interchange. #yl"ia's saying& -I'$ doing $ore work when I'$ silent than I a$ when I'$ talking..* S Commentary )7 @4is specific co$$ents or the content of his co$$ents is not necessarily helpful as opposed to not helpful& but what it does do that is "aluable is that it gi"es $e so$ething to bounce against. It's a sti$ulation to better focus $yself.* S! ,continued-7 There's something %'&e been 'anting to tal@ o&er 'ith you.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 44
C! 7 9@ay. S!!7 Good. %'m real attracted to blac@ people. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd4 uh4 that's about the craDiest part of me4 um4 %'m ashamed ,C7 =m.- Gm4 %'m embarrassed4 not right no' this minute4 but 'hen %'m out 'al@ing around. ,Carl is nodding.- ,C7 Ahen it happens4 m;hm.- :nd li&ing my life. C!!7 "ou feel 'hat an a'ful thing it is that %'m attracted to blac@ people. ,S7 =;hm.C Commentary 7 @I think that fro$ the ti$e that she first wanted to hold $y hands& I felt that she probably was going to $ake use of that closer relationship to get to so$ething that she hadn't been able to e)press before& and now she's taking really a great risk in talking about so$ething "ery pri"ate& "ery personal.* S!/7 <ot4 and not all the blac@ people % see ,C7 =;hm.- but a lot. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd4 uh4 li@e the blac@ people that % tal@ed it o&er 'ith4 it seems4 it doesn't seem li@e any problem at all4 they understand perfectly. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd4 but my family4 % thin@ it's a real painful situation for them 'hen % ha&e as many blac@ friends as % do. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- :nd; C!/7 That sounds li@e not only your family loo@s do'n on it or something but that you scold yourself for it too. S!+7 Gh;huh4 right. %4 % thin@ there's something 'rong 'ith me. C!+7 "eah4 that's it. S!*7 Gm. But it doesn't; C!*7 KAhat @ind of a craDy person am % that % feel attracted ,S7 Aell4 sic@...- to so many blac@sBL S!)7 Sic@4 sic@ % thin@ of it as C!)7 Sic@4 that's S!.7 and ne... neurotic4 um. ,C7 Fm.- Strange. ,C7 =m.- ,She closes her eyes and clears her throat.- ,pause of . secondsC!.7 "ou really feel that there's something sic@ in you that causes you to ha&e so many blac@ friends. S!27 ,9pening her eyes- Aell4 % @eep loo@ing for a reasonable e?planation ,C7 =;hm.and there is none. ,She laughs a littleC!27 So there isn't any reason e?cept that you feel that 'ay. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 45
S!(7 =;hm. :nd % ... C!(7 :nd that isn't good enough. S/37 Aell4 %4 %4 %'&e been struggling so long to accept that in myself and %'m still fighting. %t's li@e %'m fighting to accept that in myself and4 and letting go rather than thin@ing it's a terrible thing ,C7 =;hm.- and and that % can't let other people @no'. ,C7 Fm4 m;hm4 m;hm.- :nd4 uh4 C/37 "ou feel K% should not feel that 'ay. % shouldn't be that 'ay. Sic@.L C Commentary !7 @I think by that response I was trying to e)aggerate her feelings in order to assist her in& uh& beco$ing $ore accepting of the$& but as I& uh& listen to it I think I $ight ha"e responded $ore powerfully by responding to her struggle to accept herself as a person who is attracted to blacks.* S/ 7 Li@e 'hen %4 'h ... 4 % imagine 'hen % meet a blac@ person that % am attracted to4 that that person 'ill @no' ,Fe nods.- ,C7 =;hm4 mm;hm.- and % al'ays 'onder if they can tell. C/ 7 =m4 see if it sho's. ,S7 Gh;huh.- =;hm4 m;hm. S/!7 :nd that they'll thin@ %'m strange. ,C7 =;hm.- =;hm. :nd it has something to do 'ith all the blac@Q'hite se? stuff that goes on4 li@e4 um4 blac@ 'omen and 'hite men 'hich is &ery foreign to me4 % ha&e &ery little thin@ing or4 um4 concern about that. But the blac@ menQ'hite 'omen thing4 ,C7 =;hm.- um. and %'m attracted to a lot of blac@ men. ,C7 =;hm.- "eah. C/!7 %t has something to do 'ith the se?ual attraction. S//7 % @no'4 yeah4 it does4 % @no' it does. ,C7 =;hm.- But it's not Eust that4 it's also ,C7 =;hm.- children and and 'omen and lifestyle ,C7 =;hm.- and as % see it through my tunnel &ision4 'hich % do. ,C7 Gh;huh.- ,clears her throatC//7 So % guess you're saying4 um4 yeah4 there's a se?ual element in it but %'m also attracted to their 'ay of li&ing. S/+7 =;hm. That % see. ,C7 "eah.- :nd %4 but % thin@ 'hat % see isn't 'hat is. C/+7 ,Fe nods.- That's partly your fantasy or something. ,Syl&ia nods.- ,pause of 2 secondsS/*7 =aybe putting that4 that4 this on this film 'ill help me that ,She smiles.- stand on the ground and be 'ho % am. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- :nd not be so ashamed4 so embarrassed and so4 ,C7 =;hm.- um4 uncomfortable. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 46
C/*7 %n a 'ay you're saying it out loud and really in a 'a ...4 in a sense4 publicly4 may help you to feel K% don't need to be so ashamed of that.L ,S7 =;hm.C Commentary /7 @I'"e fil$ed a nu$ber of inter"iews& but I ne"er had a client knowingly $ake use of the fil$ing to try to gain $ore acceptance of self and clearly that's what #yl"ia is doing in this interchange. By putting herself clearly on record& she feels perhaps then she will feel less asha$ed& less sick& $ore& uh& truly acceptant of the person that she is and the e)periences that she has.* S/)7 :nd % tell myself % should be Eoyful4 % mean4 ,C7 =;hm.- ,She laughs a little.- 'hy4 'hy negati&eB ,C7 =;hm.- :nd %4 % guess4 you @no'4 the culture or % don't @no'4 % ,sighs- ,pause of ) secondsC/)7 But you feel disappro&ed of probably4 certainly by your family and maybe by the culture in this respect. S/.7 =y friends don't understand. ,C7 =;hm.- =y 'hite friends. C/.7 =;hm4 m;hm. ,Fe nods.- ,pause of 3 seconds- =a@es you feel different. ,S7 Fm4 hm.- Set apart or something li@e that. ,pause of ) secondsS/27 Aell4 sometimes % feel different but % @no' a lot of other people4 % belie&e a lot of other people feel the same 'ay. ,C7 =;hm.- and % @no' a lot of other 'hite 'omen are attracted to blac@ men. So % belie&e that's common. C/27 So that someho' you @no' you're not alone in this. C Commentary +7 64ere's another e)a$ple of the fact that e)pressing all the negati"e attitudes she has toward her own attraction to blacks leads her to reali9e this really is not so bad after allB there are positi"e sides of it. :ther people& other wo$en feel the sa$e way.8 S/(7 But it seems li@e the strength of my feelings and4 uh4 the on;goingness and my de ...4 my desire to identify 'ith the blac@ culture and4 ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm- um4 is. is 'hat seems out of proportion to me. That % feel out of proportion about it. ,They both nod.C/(7 =;hm. So 9@ay4 other 'omen feel the same 'ay but not to the degree that you do4 you thin@. ,S7 =;hm.- That's @ind of out of ,S7 =;hm.- 9ut of scale. S+37 9r in general to the degree too4 not Eust manQ'oman4 but ,C7 =;hm.- people. ,pause of * seconds- =aybe %4 ,small laugh- it'll come a time accepting that part of myself. C+37 =aybe someday you 'on't be ashamed of yourself for that. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 47
S+ 7 =;hm. =aybe someday % can be proud of myself. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd for 'hat % belie&e and feel. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd %'m gradually learning to do that. C+ 7 Gh;huh4 m;hm. So4 perhaps 'hat you are and 'hat you feel 'ill be something you can ta@e real satisfaction in instead of feeling ,S7 =;hm.- ho' shameful. S+!7 =;hm. :nd to me it's it's a sign of my gro'th is being able to do 'hat %'m doing 'ith you no'4 you'll ma@e a film. ,C7 =;hm.- ,She laughs.- ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm4 m; hm4 m;hm4 m;hm.- %t's a real braDen thing to do. ,C7 "eah.- =;hm. C+!7 $eel this is a ris@. ,S7 =;hm.- :nd that's a sign of learning and of gro'th. S+/7 =;hm. Aell4 also it someho' it's a little different from a ris@ in the sense of some of my friends say4 K: filmB Ah... Ahat do you 'ant to do that forBL % mean4 there's suspiciousness about it and J C+/7 =;hm4 m;hm. ,Fe nods.- So that's seen as another strange part of you. S++7 Aell4 not so much4 % mean4 that's not a C++7 <ot so. S+*7 %t doesn't bother me. ,clears throat- ,pause of seconds- Sometimes %4 'ell4 right no' ,She laughs and he nods.- sometimes4 % ha&e the sense of tal@ing a'ay 'hat 'e 'ere tal@ing about and %'m 'ondering4 if % 'ent a'ay4 if % 'ithdra' from the subEect4 uh4 'hat's your perspecti&eB %t seems li@e 'e 'ere tal@ing about my attraction to blac@ people and no' 'e're not. :nd %'m4 % don't @no'4 li@e did 'e finish tal@ing about it or did % 'ithdra'B S Commentary .7 @6y sense is that I was feeling confused about what was going on.* C Commentary *7@I think this is a sa$ple of #yl"ia's sharp awareness of her own e)periencing. I don't belie"e that in content we had left the sub1ect of her attraction to blacks. But she reali9es in herself that so$ehow she has withdrawn fro$ that. #he's& as she says& talked away fro$ it. :b"iously& that's because it has been a& a frightening sub1ect to her. 8erhaps also because she feels she's gone as far as she can go with it at the present ti$e.* S+* ,continued-7 Gm C+*7 %t's more of your analyDing it4 isn't it4 trying to thin@ ,She nods.- about 'hat's happening. K1id % run a'ay from itB 9r 'as % finished 'ith itBL ,S7 =;hm.- 9r continue thin@ about it S+)7 analyDe it ,small laughRogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 48
C+)7 %nstead of as@ing4 K1o % feel as though %'m finished 'ith itB ,S7 =;hm.- 1o % feel as though %'m escaping from itBL S+.7 % li@e that. % li@e your your Cuestions4 or comments. ,C7 =;hm.- 1o % feel finishedB ,pause of 3 seconds- <o4 % don't4 % don't feel4 % don't @no' ,Fe nods.- about escaping ,C7 =;hm.- and feeling finished4 it's C+.7 The feeling is one of uncertainty. S+27 =;hm. ,She nods.- ,pause of /* seconds- Aell % % feel li@e % 'ant to go bac@ and listen to 'hat 'e Eust tal@ed about4 ,C7 =;hm.- that % didn't hear it &ery 'ell. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm4 m;hm4 m;hm4 m;hm.- :nd ... C Commentary )7 @This is one of the co$$onest e)periences when a person del"es into areas that are sensiti"e& where they'"e e)posed the$sel"es in& in ways that $ake the$ "ery "ulnerable. #yl"ia& like $any other clients& hardly knows what she has said because it has co$e so close to her inner feelings& because it s such a delicate e)perience. Incidentally& this is one point where a wrong response on the part of the counselor can be "ery frightening and "ery threatening because her inner self is really "ery e)posed at this point. This inability to re$e$ber is the& uh& defense of the self against being changed too rapidly. It probably would be "ery good for her to hear this later and to begin to accept $ore fully what she's 1ust been e)pressing.* C+27 KAhat did % sayB Ahat did % feelBL "ou'd li@e to ha&e a rerun of it and it S+(7 =;hm. Li@e % Eust 'ent Eabber;Eabber;Eabber;Eabber. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd all that. ,C7 =;hm.- :nd so; C+(7 Sounds li@e you scold yourself for that4 as though4 K9h4 % Eust tal@ tal@;tal@.L ,She nods.- ,S7 =;hm.- %t didn't sound li@e Eust tal@;tal@;tal@ to me. S*37 %t didn'tB C*37 <o. C Commentary .7 @Throughout these inter"iews& $y own feelings ha"e been largely e$pathic and caring ones. 4ere's the first ti$e that I e)press so$e other feeling of $y own. I si$ply couldn't per$it her to scold herself for what she's been doing& and so I said& -It doesn't sound like& uh& 1ust talk'talk'talk to $e&. which was a "ery real feeling on $y part at that $o$ent.* S Commentary 27 @%t that ti$e I had the feeling that Carl was really asking $e so$ething that he wanted to know. Cike genuinely interested and concerned about that.* S* 7 ,pause of ) seconds- Aell4 % 'ould li@e to hear it again4 ,Fe nods.- and it has4 it4 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 49
and slo'ed do'n someho'4 ,C7 =;hm.- and % no' ,small laugh- % could thin@ li@e ta@ing your hand and loo@ing at you and slo'ing do'n. ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.:nd then 'hen %'m slo'ing;;and that's 'hat % 'ant to do ... ,C7 =;hm.- But 'hile %'m doing it4 %'m scolding myself. KAhat are you doing this forBL C* 7 =;hm. ,pause of * seconds- Let me gi&e you a &ery brief rerun of part of it. "ou 'ere saying4 K%'m ashamed of myself for being attracted to blac@ men. Gh4 % @no' many other 'omen ha&e some of the same feeling4 but it seems to me % ha&e that feeling disproportionately strong and uh my family is critical of that4 the culture is critical. Gm4 %'d li@e to be able to accept those feelings in myself. =aybe %'m ma@ing a little bit of progress along that line4 but still it does seem a need to be a a strange part of me that % don't understand.L ,She nods.- ,pause of 3 secondsS*!7 That's right. C*!7 K:nd part of that attraction is se?ual but %'m also attracted to their children4 to the 'ay they li&e4 to a lot of things about them.L ,S7 =;hm.C Commentary 27 @#o$eti$es when I show what an accurate listener I a$& I feel proud of $yself and I do in this $o$ent.* S*/7 :nd 'hat %4 'hat you said that stri@es me the most is it5s the part of me % don't understand4 ,C7 =;hm.- it's a part of me % don't understand. C*/7 %t Eust is4 but you can't Cuite uh can't Cuite get at the reasons for it. "ou ha&e to ha&e the reasons. S*+7 ,Laughs a little- ,pause of * seconds- :nd % don't @no' 'hy % ha&e to ha&e the reasons4 ,C7 m;hm.- % don't ha&e to e?plain to anybody. ,C7 =;hm.- So it seems li@e % don't ha&e to ha&e a reason. ,She smiles.C*+7 =;hm. ,pause of !3 seconds- So maybe the intellectual understanding isn't as important as you thought it 'as. S**7 % thin@ the acceptance is 'hat's most important4 ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- my acceptance. ,C7 =;hm.C Commentary (7 @%s she has shown throughout the& uh& inter"iew& as she says& she analy9es and analy9es. #he has to see the reasons for all of her beha"ior& and now she's taking a little bit lighter look at that& and reali9ing& DI don't ha"e to ha"e a reason for e"ery bit of $y beha"ior& I don't ha"e to understand all of it. I can si$ply accept it. 8erhaps I can si$ply accept it.D I ad$ire #yl"ia's courage in being willing to "oice the "ery& uh& inti$ate feelings she has on fil$. I belie"e that both the e)pression of those feelings will be constructi"e for her and that the willingness to share the$ with a wider audience will also ha"e a positi"e effect in her life.*
C**7 K%f % could accept it4 % 'ouldn't ha&e to understand in the sense of @no'ing the reasons.L S*)7 ,<ods.- 9r e?plain to anybody. ,Fe nods.- ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm4 m;hm.- =;hm. C*)7 Sounds li@e that's 'hat you're doing in imagination a lot4 trying to e?plain it to somebody. S*.7 =;hm. ,pause of !* seconds- %t seems li@e %'ll probably ne&er understand it. ,Both nod.- So % can ma@e life a lot easier for myself by not trying. ,They both nod.C*.7 =;hm. ,pause of * seconds- %t may be one of those things that if you can accept it4 you 'ouldn't need to ha&e all the e?planations. ,pause of ( secondsS*27 Aonder 'hat ,She closes her eyes for a moment4 sighs and clears her throat.- 'hat @eeps me4 um4 feeling li@e % need to Eustify myself. ,C7 =;hm.- Li@e that's a more basic C*27 =;hm. %t's a broader statement of it. S*(7 than about a particular &ie'4 accepting myself about this and about that. C*(7 =;hm. "ou 'ould in general feel K% ha&e to Eustify myself 'ith proper reasons.L S)37 =;hm. ,pause of !3 seconds- ,smiles- Aell4 do you do thatB 1o you C)37 % suspect 'e all do4 some. ,S7 "eah.- =;hm. S) 7 So there's nobody that Eust ,Both laugh.- floats along on their ,Both laugh.intuition. That5s not it either. So 'hat % need is more balance really. ,C7 =;hm.<ot that %5m 'rong to Eustify it4 but that % can be more4 Eustify it less and feel more4 ,Both nod.- ,C7 =;hm4 m;hm.- and feel comfortable. ,C7 =;hm.S Commentary (7 @This e)perience that I had with Carl is& uh& real special to $e and& uh& one of the things about it that feels real close to $e is the e$otional safety I felt with hi$. That there was so$ehow a& a boundary or a fence or a so$ething that& uh& separated the space that I was in with Carl fro$ the rest of the world and inside that space I was "ery safe and I would not be hurt. I didn't ha"e to ha"e any fear that I would be hurt no $atter what I said or did& and the focus of $y thinking was how "ery safe that felt. %nother thing I felt fro$ hi$ that I think has affected $e so$e o"er this ti$e is that I felt& uh& like support fro$ hi$ to be $yself& to listen to $yself and to respond to $yself and to care about& to put $yself first. I think about how $y life $ight ha"e been changed by $y e)periences with Carl. I think Carl's caring for $e in the way that he did& his& uh& $odeling& helping $e to learn to care for $yself& where like $aybe $y $ost i$portant resource would be $yself. /C: 5eah.0 #o it see$s to $e that in his style of relating there's a lot of support to do that& a lot of encourage$ent and influence to listen to Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 Syl&ia4 *th %nter&ie'4 page 51
$yself.* E<1 9$ SESS%9<
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. 0athy %nter&ie' by Carl Rogers ,Circa (.*6Source7 Shostrom4 E. L. , (.*-. Three approaches to psychotherapy II 6$ilm8. 9range4 C:.8 Rogers7 % 'ant to meet this client as a person. :nd % 'ant our encounter to be that of t'o persons. % ha&e no desire to ha&e ad&ance information regarding her. %'ll 'or@ 'ith 'hate&er she 'ishes to re&eal of herself. %t's my hope that % can first of all be myself. Be present. Be real in the relationship. % usually find it easy4 also4 to feel a caring for the client. But % can't predict in ad&ance 'hether % 'ill feel that. % 'ould li@e to let myself enter into her inner 'orld of feelings and perceptions as accurately and as sensiti&ely as % can. %n order to e?perience that @ind of empathy4 %' need to lay aside4 as far as possible4 my o'n biases and preconceptions. The e?tent to 'hich % can do that 'ill to a considerable degree determine the progress 'hich she is able to ma@e in the time 'e ha&e together. % feel %'m a responsible therapist. %'m responsible for doing my best to create a facilitati&e climate in 'hich she can e?plore her feelings in the 'ay that she desires4 mo&e to'ard the goals that she 'ishes to achie&e. %t's in this deep sense that my approach to therapy is centered in the client. :iming to empo'er him or her to search out and e?perience the areas of conflict or pain4 to percei&e self in ne' 'ays4 to choose to follo' ne' options in beha&ior. %t is my o'n self % find feelings other than those of caring and of understanding %'ll feel free to e?press theseO but as my o'n feelings4 not as any Eudgment of or guide for the client. 9r4 especially on a first inter&ie'4 % may ha&e no other feelings than a priDing of the client and a desire to in;d'ell in her e?perience. There's no 'ay % can tell in ad&ance. $or me each encounter 'ith a client is fresh4 unpredictable4 often enriching to my learning as 'ell as hopefully4 enriching the self;learning of the client. So % loo@ for'ard 'ith eagerness to 'hate&er our time together may bring.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy4 %ntroduction4 page 53
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. Throughout this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,C- are numbered for easy reference. Carl Rogers5 %nter&ie' 'ith 0athy ;; (.. T7 C7 T7 C7 T7 Fi4 0athy. Fi4 1r. Rogers. %'m really glad to meet you. Than@ you. :ndJ % don't @no' 'hether you're feeling a little uptight under these lights and all4 but % thin@ %'m feeling a little uptight4 but % don't thin@ that 'ill last &ery long. :nd % ha&e4 not ha&ing met you before %4 % don't ha&e any idea 'hat sort of concerns or issues you 'ant to bring up4 but %'d be glad to hear 'hate&er you 'ant to say. %'m not Cuite sure 'here to begin. Ghm4 hmm. But4 uh4 some of my concerns are4 um4 %'&e become &ery much a'are since my husband 'as @illed last 1ecember4 um4 my o'n feelings of aloneness. Ghm4 hmm. :nd % don't thin@ it5s directly related to his death because 'e had been separated for about four years before he 'as @illed. :nd %4 % became a'are that4 after he died especially4 that he 'as really &ery important in my life. % 'as @ind of using him as a shield against going out and ha&ing other relationships. :nd no' he5s gone and % can't use that anymore. :nd % feel &ery4 &ery frightened of ne' male relationships.
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So in some 'ay his4 his death4 uh4 really made you a'are of the fear you ha&e of4 of ne' relationships4 especially 'ith men. Right4 right. 1efinitely4 % didn't ha&e him. % didn't ha&e that to hide behind anymore. :nd4 uh4 % had a tremendous feeling of loss 'hen he died because % did care for him. But4 um4 in going out 'ith other men lately4 % Eust ha&e this feeling of4 uh4 it's &ery strange. %'m &ery uncomfortable. So that4 the feeling you ha&e is something more than Eust the loss of him. %t's a different feeling4 a fee ing of uneasy or scared or unsure. "es. $or a long time % didn't feel li@e going out and that 'as fine. % 'as going through my loss of him4 but that 'as all right. % didn5t push it or anything. But Eust recently % started going out and %'&e been a'are for years of ho' lonely4 % ha&e been &ery4 &ery lonely. % ha&en't been dating &ery much for the last four years4 mostly Eust 'or@ing and ta@ing care of the @ids. :nd um4 % thin@ %'m @eeping myself in @ind of a no;'in situation 'here %'m really lonely. :nd yet it's @ind of li@e %'m @eeping myself there because %'&e got a guard around me4 and %'d @ind of li@e to brea@ out of that. %t5s as though you're in some 'ay sort of responsible for your loneliness. "es4 % @no' that. %'m &eryJ % am. :nd that's something you'd li@e to brea@ out of that shell4 or that safeguard that you'&e been hiding behind. #art of me does. #art of you does. 9@4 o@. #art of me says4 K<o 'ayL. So it really is a &ery ambi&alent4 t'o;'ay thing. ,C ta@es a breath- % suspect it's been pretty comfortable4 um4 behind that safeguardO it's more of ris@ if you brea@ out. %s that part of itB %4 % can almost4 'ell % 'as going to say % can almost go bac@ to the point 'here % really built up that safeguard in me 'hen my marriage 'as going bad. 9&er fi&e years ago and % could feel myself4 and % @no' % did4 % 'ithdre' and %5&e been 'ithdra'n e&er since. %t's @ind of li@e4 K<o more. % don't 'ant any more hurt.L SoJ Ghm4 hmm4 it's Eust too damn ris@y4 ta@ing the possibility of being hurt again. :nd you'&e 'ithdra'n from that for a long time.
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Ghm4 hmm. See4 and %'&e been a'are of this for a long time too4 but % ne&er go beyond the a'areness le&el. So that the @no'ledge isn't ne'4 it's the um4 Cuestion of 'hat you do about it. That's right4 that's right. Fo' can one stay safe and still be openB The 'ay you sha@e your head ma@es me feel4 K% don't see any 'ay.L % don't4 % really don5t. %f % did4 maybe % probably 'ould ha&e done it a long time ago4 but % don't. Must seems @ind of unbearable to4 to be4 open 'ith a person and yet feel safe. %4 % thin@ %'m a pretty open person to begin 'ith. :nd uh4 e&erything is fine in a relationship as long as the focus does not turn onto me. % see4 % see. %f you can @eep the focus on the other person you're o@. That's right. :nd the focus on me up to a certain le&el4 but not in the romantic @ind of a 'ay. : friendship4 % 'ould &alue that. But lo&e4 you 'ant to4 @eep that at arms length. But you @no'4 that's important though4 because um4 if a person doesn't 'ant to really be your friend4 ho' can you ha&e them for a lo&erB Ghm4 hmm. <o 'ay. <ot Cuite sure % get that. "ou mean friendship is a necessary first step4 is that 'hat you're saying4 orJ %t is for me. "eah. ,Long pause-
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Ae'&e gotten to the point 'here % 'on't go beyond. Ghm4 hmm4 that's 'hat % 'as sort of thin@ing. "ou'&e thought your 'ay this far4 but then 'here do youJ %'&e laid the cards out and that's all % 'ant to play. So that4 in this relationship it's li@e in your other relationships. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 56
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That's right. %t goes so far and then4 KLet's stop. That's as far as % 'ant to go.L ,#ause,C7 Fmm.- %f you go any further4 there's a ris@4 isn't itB "es4 it is. :nd % thin@ your eyes tell me you're feeling that ris@ right no'. ,#auseSo here % am. ,#ause- % feel li@e saying to myself4 KAell you got this far. %t's not so bad.L ,Laughter- %t's all rightO % ma@e the best out of it. %t's all right up to this point. "eah4 right. So let5s laugh it off. "eah4 ma@e a Eo@e. Tal@ about something else. Could4 &ery easy to run a'ay from yourself. See4 but that's it. % made a bargain 'ith myself. There's t'o parts7 the part that understands and it5s all right4 and the other part that's scared silly. But the part that understands isn5t going to force the part that's scared. Ahen it5s safe enough4 %'ll be @ind to myself. :nd let the scared part come out 'hen4 'hen you5re ready for it4 'henJ Ahen the scared part feels ready. %t5s as if part of me is in a ca&e a'ay from the rest of the 'orld. But it cert;4 % certainly can't come out of that ca&e4 unless % @no' that it5s all right4 that there 'on't be a lot of pain to greet me. Ahat's the sense in coming outB So it5s up to the best of me to ma@e sure that there are nurturing people around me. :nd 'hen you feel safe enough4 either in this relationship or 'ith other people4 then you can let yourself come out of the ca&e and let the scared part of you emerge. That's right. That's 'hy4 that's 'hy % &alue the friendships 'ith men and 'ith other people. % don't care for the rest. <ot to say that % don't need it4 % do4 but % need the friendship4 and the safety and the security of that first. %4 um4 too@ a trip not too long ago and % met a man that % had @no'n years and years ago4 only &ery briefly. :nd % met him again % 'ent out 'ith him. :nd he 'as such a lo&ely person4 such a @ind person4 and a &ery ... a &ery good person. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 57
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:ny'ay4 it 'as in the mountains and as % 'as dri&ing home from his4 um4 his home4 loo@ing at the mountains4 %4 % had this feeling. %t5s @ind of funny4 % ha&en't read the Carlos Castaneda boo@s4 but % @no' the concept of the third eye. :nd % 'as feeling as % 'as dri&ing through those mountains that4 K<o' it5s all right for my third eye to come out4 and to be able to percei&e.L :nd % felt so good. But 'hen % came bac@ home4 %'&e @ind of busied myself 'ith 'ood'or@ing4 and the house4 and that @ind of thing. :nd %'m @ind of bac@ in the same en&ironment4 in the same predicament. But % @no' that %4 % consciously at times choose bet'een focusing in on things and not. T!.7 C!27 T!27 C!(7 %'m4 %'m really interested in that e?perience4 'hen you 'ere a'ay from him4 then there 'as Eust a little 'hile4 'hen it felt safe. :nd you could percei&eJ Ahen % 'as dri&ing. "eah4 'hen you 'ere dri&ing and you could percei&e yourself and the 'hole situation4 % guess. % could percei&e4 it doesn5t ha&e much to4 it did ha&e to do 'ith him4 but % could percei&e myself4 and my closed;offedness. :nd at that time % 'as open4 and % had that perception of myself and that a'areness that % had been closed. :nd that4 'hen % 'as dri&ing through that canyon % 'as feeling &ery open and no' % could ha&e my understanding4 and it 'as a l right. "ou let yourself for that time come out of the ca&e. "eah4 yes4 it 'as great. :nd then he came to see me. Fe fle' in to see me a couple of 'ee@s ago. :nd um4 % felt4 see % 'as a'are % had this memory of that opening up and so % felt more guarded. :h4 is that right. But @ind of slo'ly unpeeling layers4 or slo'ing coming up. But someho'4 ha&ing4 ha&ing come out of the ca&e4 you 'ere afraid you might come out of the ca&e too easily. Too4 yeah that's right4 that's right. KSo4 'atch out4 be carefulL. That's right. "ou sound li@e a &ery tender4 &ulnerable part of you that li&es in that ca&e. % thin@ my most tender part. ,C criesRogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 58
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"our mostB =y most tender part. "our most tender part. Ghm4 hmm. Ghm4 hmm. Ghm4 hmm. %t's really a &ery precious part of you that you @eep in the ca&e ,C ta@es long breath- %4 for a long4 long time4 %5&e had the feeling of hopelessness of e&er coming out. :nd do you @no' life is an e?istence 'ithout all of youJ AithoutB Jall of you. "eah4 % see. Right. So4 you4 the hopelessness4 % gather is because you @no' you're not li&ing 'ith all of you. #art of you you're @eeping 'ell hidden. That's right. Aell guarded. :nd it isn't really li&ing4 unless you can li&e it 'ith all of you. That's right4 it's Eust doing things4 Eust doing things. The part that4 you @no'4 that % consciously a&oid are the arts. The things that % lo&e4 music4 theater4 paintings4 that @ind of thing. Those are the things that touch your feelings. % don5t get to the core. 9@4 things that touch your feelings or touch the core of you4 those you 'ant to stay a'ay from. That's right. They got4 they get too close4 too close to this &ery tender part of you. ,#ause- %5&e reached another stop. Ghm4 hmm4 but you felt safe enough to let out a little bit more and no' it5s come to another stop. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 59
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,#ause- % ha&e to gi&e eCual time to all of my dimensions. Ae Eust ha&e4 % Eust felt4 you @no'4 in touch 'ith my &ulnerability4 but no' %5m feeling angry. 9@. Li@e4 K%t5s none of your businessJL Ghm4 hmm. J'hat %'m feeling. Ghm4 hmm4 'hat am % doing getting that close to the &ulnerable part of youB K1amn it4 stay a'ay.L That5s right4 that5s right. Ahat do you 'ant to do that forB Ghm4 hmm. Ghm4 hmm. "ou'&e got other things to do. ,C laughsSo you5re putting up all @inds of guards against me4 and stri@ing out4 KAhat the hell are you doingL4 and4 Kgetting so close to the &ulnerable part of me4 'hy don5t you go do something elseL4 hmmB That's the part that @eeps me lonely. Ghm4 hmm. So that4 that pushing a'ay part4 that @ind of angry4 KGet a'ay from meL part4 is 'hat @eeps you &ery lonely. %t's li@e % don't really trust that % can trust you to @no' that. % can tell this and that. "ou may feel a little something about it4 but 'hat thenB "ou @no'4 % mean you @no'4 K%t's a nice story4 so4 big deal4 something else to doL. Ahat % hear is that4 is that you feel that % don5t really care4 Eust a storyJ That's right. Must somethingJ but 'hat if % do J "ou @no'J But 'hat if % do care. ,C ta@es a breath- % 'ant to ma@e a Eo@e and say4 >:'4 go on.> ,C laughs"ou @no'4 um4 %'m a nurse and4 a psychiatric nurse4 'or@ed in a psychiatric hospital last year. 9ne of the big things there4 the patients got a lot of points if they 'ould tal@ in group. % mean e&erybody 'ants you to tal@. "ou @no'4 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 60
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the good patient tal@s. :nd % thought4 you @no'4 anybody can tal@. The reason 'hy people don5t tal@ is not because they can5t tal@4 it5s because they don't @no' ho' people are going to respond. That's 'here it5s at. So % don5t thin@ the patients 'ere not being good patients. % don't thin@ they 'ere being bad patients because they 'eren't tal@ing. % thin@ that the staff should ha&e a demerit for not responding. 9@4 these patients tal@ed4 no' ho' do you respondB =a@es it a 'hole ne' ballgame. T*/7 C*+7 T*+7 C**7 "eah. :nd so no'4 % tal@ed. ,C laughs"ou'&e earned some points. "eah no' % earned my points4 that's true. But4 um4 % thin@ that5s the fear of e&eryone. %t5s not so much re&ealing themsel&es4 but being cared about. That's my fear. That's my fears after %'&e re&ealed myself4 KAho caresBL %t's uh4 'hen you'&e let out a tender part of yourself4 then it5s damned important to @no'4 K1oes this other person careB 1oes it ma@e any differenceBL =y husband used to say he cared4 but it 'as Eust 'ords4 it 'as 'ords. Fe um4 % thin@ he cared as much as he could care but4 he had so many conflicts inside of himself that he didn't e&en see me as a person. 1idn't e&en see me. %t's not that he didn't 'ant to care. %t's that he couldn't4 he 'as too busy 'ith himself. But % understand that. :nd % understand that 'ith other people4 too. But see % Eust can5t go around re&ealing myself all the time to people 'ho are Eust too busy 'ith themsel&es. Ghm4 hmm. "ou need a response4 you need a caring4 you need to ma@e a difference to somebody. That's it4 not to someone 'ho5ll say4 >9h4 'ell4 0athy4 % really care4> and then % don't see them for a couple of years. 9r4 >%'ll call you> and then they ne&er call. "ou @no'4 'hen % first split up from my husband4 % 'ould go to these different functions4 not 'ith a date4 but 'ith friends4 and meet a man and he'd say4 >%'ll call you>. :nd for a 'hile there %'d be sure that % 'asn't home4 because % couldn't stand to @no' if he didn't call. :nd that 'ay % didn't @no' if he didn't call4 so there 'as a possibility that he had called. But % 'asn't home4 so ho' could % @no'. So 'ith that4 that4 that &ulnerable % 'as really in touch 'ith it. %t ma@es so much difference to you to @no' 'hether the other person is going to really respond. KAhen they say they care4 do they careBL That's right4 caring people4 'ill call you4 or drop by4 KFo''s it goingBL4 that Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 61
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@ind of thing. T*27 C*(7 :nd that's not enoughB <o4 it 'ould be enough4 if they 'ould do that. ,C laughs- That'd be Eust great4 that 'ould be Eust great. % don't thin@ % really 'ant that much from another person. The morsels are fine4 but %'m not e&en getting the morsels. Ghm4 hmm4 it isn't as though you 'ant a 'hole meal4 it's thatJ "eah4 % mean % could 'or@ up to it all right. That's 'hy % thin@ 'ith this friend it 'as nice. :nd may ha&e gone bac@ in but % felt myself4 come ali&e a little bit. : little bit of magic had come into my life4 and that 'as nice. :nd %'d rather not come out all at once and run bac@ in. %'d rather come out bit;by; bit and stay out. But see the thing of it is that4 and li@e 'e're tal@ing no'4 a little bit4 or %'m thin@ing about the focus of the relationship4 it has to be this male;female @ind of thing. :nd4 um4 % don't thin@ that 'hat % need to do is to come out and ha&e lo&e4 and then4 thin@ about a male;female relationship. But % don't @no' ho' % can come out too much 'ithout a man ,C laughs-. That's @ind of a4 contradiction4 in a 'ay. : dilemma4 it's a dilemma. ,T laughs- But you feel 'hat you 'ant first is a relationship 'ith a person4 only it helps if it5s a man. That's right. %t must be a man. 9rJ %t isn't Eust better if it's a man4 it's a necessity. %t must be a man4 that5s right4 because that's 'here my fear is. So that's 'here you fear is4 a fear of a relationship 'ith a man. :nd yet4 you'd li@e to be able to really come out of the ca&e first4 before it became a man; 'oman4 se?ual relationship4 or anything li@e that. %s that 'hat you're sayingB %'d li@e to ha&e a caring relationship. :nd its @ind of funny4 it's li@e a little girl 'anting a man to ta@e her out of the ca&e4 and4 care about. %'ll put it bac@ on me4 % feel li@e a little girl. Someone to care about me and to @no' that %'m comfortable and that %'m all right4 and then as@ for himself. :nd then as@B $or himself4 of the relationship. But first4 you'd li@e to ha&e a man come at least to the entrance of the ca&e and ta@e the hand of you as a little girl and lead you gently out4 caring for you. Then maybe4 other @inds of things might happen. ,#ause- The little girl is the non;se?ual4 being. That's right4 K1on't use me Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 62
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se?ually first. :nd then if you li@e it good enough4 @eep coming bac@.L That's 'hat % don't 'ant. T)*7 C))7 T))7 C).7 T).7 C)27 T)27 C)(7 The little girl4 the little girl 'ill gro' up if you care enough4 for her. That's right4 and can respond as a 'oman4 if the other is there. Can you tell him thatB Could you tell him thatB %'m confused4 do % tell one man that4 or is that 'hat %J % 'as thin@ing of this4 this one man. 9h4 this indi&idual. Ghm4 hmm. 9h4 % thin@ % could tell him that4 % @no' % could. But you @no'4 % start putting him do'n. ,T laughs- % @no' that's Eust4 my sister told me4 she said4 KThat's Eust because you're scared.L Because % told her the @ind of man % 'ould4 % thought % 'ould be comfortable 'ith4 and he is this @ind of person. :nd then % start telling her all these bad things. :nd she said4 ><obody 'ould be perfect. "ou 'ould do this 'ith anyone4 some.> But 'ith this person % thin@ % could. =aybe you could let him @no' 'hat you need. %'d li@e to be able to carry that o&er. % suppose maybe4 maybe %'m glossing that o&er or something4 but %'d li@e to carry it o&er in my relationships 'ith e&eryone. To get 'hat % need from the relationship4 and not focusing in on the other person. See4 % thin@ the 'ay % am %'m the perfect nurse4 the perf;4 you @no'4 anything for somebody else. :nd that's fine4 focus in on them any time. But on myself4 li@e %'m too scared to do that. Li@e that's a no;no. But %'d li@e to be able to do that4 focus in on my o'n needs4 first. But % feel @ind of selfish 'hen % loo@ at it that 'ay. % fee li@e a ta@er instead of a gi&er and that's got a negati&e4 connotation. "ou're so much a nurse that 'hen you e&en thin@ of saying4 KBut % need this for myself.L that seems @ind of 'rong4 selfish. KAait a minute4 you're the nurse. Ahat is thisBL K"ou're supposed to be caring for the other person.L That's right.
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But once in a 'hile you realiDe4 K%'d li@e to care for myself4 first.L,6#auseSeems a'ful. ,C laughsMust to say that. K"ou're so naughty4 Eust thin@ing about it.L ,C laughsMust to say that4 seems4 KAhat a selfish person % am.L "eah. KTerrible4 a'ful.L % feel 'ic@ed4 but % enEoy it. %'m enEoying thin@ing about it. %t's fun Eust to imagine4 K% might 'ant something for myself4 first.L %t's really a lo&ely fantasy to be completely narcissist4 completely self; centered4 and into pleasure4 and into comfort. ,C sighsMust being good to yourself. But in a 'ay4 you @no'4 in a 'ay % am being good to myself by @eep that &ulnerable part of me a'ay until it's safe. Because not e&erybody 'ould be good to you4 not e&erybody 'ould be @ind. There are people 'ho 'ould use you up4 and not bat an eyelash4 and not e&en thin@ about it. So you ha&e a real respect for your4 for your instinct for preser&ing yourself. That's right. "ou can't trust e&eryone4 not e&eryone 'ould care. ,#ause% 'as Eust smiling4 % 'as thin@ing4 but % care. :nd you say that 'ith a smile4 but that's pretty deep too isn't itB Ghm4 hmm. % do care. K% care for myselfL. % li@e caring. % li@e it. % li@e caring for myself4 and not gi&ing a'ay e&ery part of my4 Eust because some Tom4 1ic@4 or Farry 'ants it. K% really priDe myself4 and %'m proud of that. %'m not going to Eust gi&e myself Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 64
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a'ay.L C2/7 That's right. %t's nice to ha&e that feeling of caring for myself4 that's good. But you @no' since 1ic@ died4 % 'as thin@ing4 % could die tomorro'. :ny of us could4 and4 %'m missing4 % 'ant to ha&e more. % don't 'ant to Eust care for myself4 % 'ant to4 % 'ant to be able to care for myself and at the same time be able to ta@e in life more. But %'m not doing4 see %'&e closed it off4 if % could figure out some 'ay of doing that4 then4 you're smiling ,C laughs-4 so that'd be Eust great. To be able to care for yourself4 and yet open yourself up to life4 and someho' that also tied up 'ith the realiDation that4 K"ou @no'4 death 'ill come one day.L "ou'd li@e to li&e before you die. That's right4 % 'ant4 % sa' a card one time that said4 KBorn4 and then died.L :nd you open it up and it says4 >%n bet'een4 he li&ed> or something li@e that. That's 'hat % 'ould li@e for myself4 a little life in bet'een the born and the death4 a little more life4 and pleasure. See that's 'hat %'m missing. 1eep do'n inside is the4 pleasure4 e?perience of pleasure and Eoy4 those @inds of e?periences. %'&e been happy. % ha&e fun. % do enEoy my children4 but it's on a limited le&el. "ou don't really open yourself to Eoy. % guess fun4 yes sure. But Eoy is on a deeper le&el4 you see4 soJ % 'ant to say4 >But ho''&e you been latelyB> ,C laughs-. Aell4 KLets change the subEect.L ,T laughs-. "es4 KFo''s your 'ife4 your houseBL all that. Gm4 it'd be pretty nice to Eust4 run a'ay from some of this. %t 'ould4 yes. Must tal@. Aell let5s Eust ha&e a rest for a 'hile. %'m impressed 'ith the fact that 'hen you need a rest4 you really ta@e it. 9h4 than@ you. % 'as thin@ing my humor comes to the rescue4 KGi&e me a breather.L %t's one of the 'ays in 'hich you preser&e yourself. That's rightO % had a dream one time. :nd % dreamed that % 'as on a sled 'ith t'o other girls4 and 'e 'ere going do'n a sno'y hill. :nd 'e 'ere going Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy %nter&ie'4 page 65
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too fast. :nd % told them to stop4 they had to get off4 other'ise they 'ere going to crash into this train station at the bottom of the hill. :nd they 'ouldn't belie&e me. So % got off4 and they 'ent on. :nd % side;stepped in the sno' all the 'ay do'n the hill4 but there 'ere lots of trees 'here % 'as side stepping4 and % 'as hanging onto the trees4 one by one as % 'ent do'n. :nd 'hen % got to the bottom of the hill4 the sled had crashed4 or something. :nd then % thought to myself4 KThat means4 that has to do 'ith me. #art of me 'ould go too fast4 andJL T(37 :nd4 and this morning has been an e?ample of the fact that you're not going to go so fast that you crash. ,C7 That's right.- "ou're going to go at your o'n pace if its step;by;step do'n the hill4 oh4 that's the pace you ha&e. That must be it. =aybe that's a good stopping point.
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Rogers5 #ost;Session Commentary % found it fascinating4 the 'ay in 'hich this client &ery slo'ly lo'ers her defenses. % thin@ those defenses could be bro@en through4 but that in my estimation 'ould not be as helpful as letting her proceed at her o'n pace. % thin@ the client learns more that 'ay. Ae did progress in the inter&ie'. Ae 'ent from her perception of loneliness as her problem4 to her fear of her relationships 'ith men4 to her feelings about letting the tender4 &ulnerable part of herself come out of a ca&e4 to the recognition of the little girl in her that 'ants to be tenderly let out. She then began to get to the recognition of the deep4 of the pain that is deep inside of her. That is unspea@able4 almost unbearable. Ae sa' her partially e?perience that pain4 in spots4 and then dra' bac@. Then finally 'e sa' the feelings that she has4 that perhaps at bottom she is completely unlo&able4 one of the commonest feelings that people ha&e. % thought that the dream at the end 'as almost a perfect description of the hour. She 'ent deeper into herself4 step;by;step4 by slo' degrees4 cautiously and guardedly because she didn5t 'ant to crash into that pain. :nd she too@ resting times bet'een the steps. So % thought that described the 'hole progress of the hour. % feel that it 'as a 'or@ing inter&ie'4 not highly dramatic4 and much of therapy is 'or@4 and this 'as a good e?ample of it. % felt present to her. % felt a companion in her e?ploration. %f % 'ere to continue to see her % thin@ that she 'ould gradua ly mo&e to'ard e?periencing that care of herself of 'hich she is Cuite frightened. % li@e the 'ay 'e got into metaphors. Clients can say more in metaphors then they can say4 than they dare to say openly. :nd % li@e the 'ay % responded to the metaphors. % li@ed the 'ay she 'as able to e?press her anger to'ard me 'hene&er she felt it4 'hene&er she felt that she 'as close to a dangerous part of her e?periencing a painful part of her e?periencing and that 'as easy for me to accept that anger. % felt good about this as a first inter&ie'.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 0athy4 #ost;Session Commentary4 page 67
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. Throughout this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,Care numbered for easy reference. Carl Rogers' $irst Session 'ith 1ione ,Code name1ialogue from the film4 KThe Right to be 1esperate.L (.. 6Source7 Ahiteley4 M. =. ,#roducer-. , (..-. Carl Rogers counsels an indi"idual on anger and hurt 6$ilm8. :merican #ersonnel and Guidance :ssociation ,:merican :ssociation for Counseling and 1e&elopment-.8 The film includes stopped images 'ith Rogers5 &oice gi&ing comments about the inter&ie'. :ll of the dialogue of the interaction bet'een Rogers and K1ioneL is included. The &oiced o&er sections do not censor any parts of the interaction. They are in brac@ets and italics. T7 Aell4 %'m really glad to meet you.
C 7 9@ay. T 7 %'&e heard a fe' things about you4 all good things4 and %'&e also heard that you ha&e leu@emia but that you're in a state of remission4 and that5s all % @no' about you . . . so from there on ... C !7 9@ay. T !7 Ahate&er 'e do is up to us. Ahat things do you feel you 'ant to tal@ about todayB C /7 % don't @no'. % 'as sitting in the room and 'aiting4 before4 and % 'as thin@ing about 'hen % 'as about . or 2 years old. % remember reading a boo@4 % belie&e. :nd % can't recall the name4 by Mung4 % thin@ it 'as. % recalled that 'hen % 'as reading it4 at that time4 % used to go do'n in the basement of my home and um4 turn off all the lights. :nd in a 'ay4 that 'as @ind of closing the outside 'orld out ,C7 =hm4 hmm- and concentrating on 'hat % 'anted to do and 'hat % 'anted to be. :nd at . years old % 'as into that4 and today %'m in the same position . . . um4 really at this4 you @no'4 trying to find out 'hat % 'ant to do4 'hat % 'ant to be. :nd um4 %'&e learned a lot of things. %'&e learned a lot of things since % found out that % ha&e leu@emia ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'hich is about a year ago this Mune . . . and %'&e learned an a'ful lot of things. T /7 %'ll bet. :nd you're going through a stage if % understand is a little bit li@e 'hat it 'as at se&en4 sort of shutting out the 'orld or shutting yourself into a space 'here Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 68
you're trying to figure out 'hat it is that you 'ant or 'ho you areB 6Rogers5 &oice o&er a stopped image Commentary 7 Clearly he has rehearsed this first portion and yet& the $aterial is of interest. +hether it's superficial or deep& I want to understand the e)act $eaning his e)perience has for hi$. +hether it's true or false& real or i$aginary& this kind of presenting $aterial is "ery co$$on in first sessions& and is to be e)pected and to be respected.8 C +7 % thin@ that %'&e listened for so long to other people about 'ho % 'as ,T7 =hm4 hmm- and % remember in !nd grade % 'as a potential credit to my race. That 'as one of the . . . ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % used to 'onder 'hy % couldn't be a credit to somebody ,T7 laughs- else's race also. % thin@ % 'as really conditioned to be something. To be some @ind of a symbol4 or ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'hate&er4 and not really being a person4 you @no'4 % @ind of missed out on my childhood to an e?tent. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % don't really regret it. % don't thin@ % regret it any'ay4 but %'&e really been through a lot of changes. :nd % thin@ that no'4 after finding out % had leu@emia and after dealing 'ith the leu@emia in the 'ay % did4 it's Eust really incredible4 you see. %t 'as last Mune 'hen % found out4 and um4 % proceeded to get e&erything in order because % 'as told that % had less than a year to li&e. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd uh4 that 'as the trip. ,T7 %'ll bet.- That 'as a trip. T +7 : trip into a fairly dar@ place4 % suppose. C *7 9h4 yeah. $or sure. $or sure. 9n one hand % accepted the death. %4 you @no'4 at my young age % thin@ %'&e li&ed long and a great deal. But that 'as the start of some things that really has had an effect on me today. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- %'m much happier than %'&e e&er been . . . today. ,T7 Fmm- %'m much happier. ,T7 Fmm- But there's a lot of hurt too. There's an a'ful lot of hurt and % thin@ %'m Eust beginning to realiDe that. Gm4 because you @no'4 in being a credit to your race4 in being an outstanding student4 an outstanding scholar4 an outstanding football player4 'hate&erO it lea&es you little room to be . . . T *7 "ou'&e been meeting other people's e?pectations of you and it seems that that's 'hat you should do no'. % guess you're really Cuestioning that &ery much. C )7 9h4 yeah. Tremendously. :nd li@e you get into . . . the fun thing about it is that %'m finding out that some of the things that % thin@ inside of me are o@ay. :nd li@e that isn't . . . you @no'4 % feel o@ay4 and %'m in a process of becoming o@ay. But li@e % ha&en't 'or@ed it out. Furt is a hard thing to deal 'ith. :nd li@e conditioning yourself to die ,T7 =hm4 hmm- is another thing4 you @no'4 you see4 % didn't let my family in on that ,T7 Fmm- until =arch of this year. So it 'as some months before %... T )7 "ou carried that 'ithin you. C .7 9h4 yeah. But % proceeded &ery meticulously to carry out a plan4 'here my children Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 69
'ould li&e in an area that % 'anted them to li&e. :nd that4 % 'as trying to control something after % died. 9nly 'hen % 'ent bac@ this year in =arch to celebrate my children's birthday4 and % had four 'ee@s4 incidentally4 to li&e at that timeO % 'as told on =arch * that % had four 'ee@s to li&e. :nd it 'as really incredible because li@e4 for the first time4 % sa' all my relati&es and my friends. :nd they 'ere coming in and they 'ere &ery lo&ing4 &ery lo&ing people4 and &ery @ind4 you see. Gm4 but at the same time4 they 'ere all thro'ing flo'ers on my gra&e. ,T7 =hm4 hmm:nd % don't thin@ they @ne' that. :nd as a result4 % got 'orse and % got 'orse4 and um4 % too@ a friend bac@. "ou see4 %'d li&ed out here in California. um4 after % found out that % had leu@emia4 % proceeded to de&elop a plan to mo&e my family out here. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd 'e mo&ed out in appro?imately <o&ember after se&eral trips out in the area. The trips 'ere basically to find a doctor ,T7 =hm4 hmm- and also find in a 'ay some @ind of a hope. "ou see4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % ha&e this conditioned thing about being a fighter. So4 on one hand % accept that4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- and on the other hand % 'as trying to do all % damned 'ell could to li&e. T .7 %f it's going to be death4 o@ay4 you'll ta@e it. But you're not going to ta@e it unnecessarily. C 27 <o. <ot at all. 6Rogers Commentary !7 I like the way I'$ being a co$panion to hi$& trying to disco"er 1ust how the prospect of death see$s to hi$. I find that i$portant because a client needs $ost to be understood in the darkest portions of his e)perience.8 C (7 "ou @no'4 the thing that uh4 you @no'4 after % 'as sitting in there and % 'as thin@ing . . . % had really conditioned myself to4 to really get ready and find the nearest cross and cra'l up on that4 and %'&e been doing that since % 'as se&en years old4 and %'m not sure 'hy. T (7 To really crucify yourself4 is that 'hat you're sayingB 9r to be a martyrB %'m not really sure . . . C 37 9h4 %'m not really sure. But % thin@ the acti&ities % 'as in&ol&ed in4 in terms of trans;racial communication4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'or@ing 'ith groups4 and helping people ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % 'ould hope &ery similar to 'hat people li@e yourself did. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- Gm4 al'ays being a&ailable for e&erybody4 all the time. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % thin@ that's being a martyr or ,T7 "eah- something. "eah. T 37 #utting the other person first. C 7 $or sure. "eah. %nstead of saying4 >Fey4 there's some time for me.> Because you see4 % 'or@ed so hard and so long that it 'as Eust really4 really difficult for me to get used to4 you @no'4 being sic@4 not 'or@ing' and not being in control ,T7 =hm4 hmmbecause % definitely 'as not in control. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd there 'ere a lot of things that % did that % am not really &ery pleased about. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- But you Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 70
@no'4 after thin@ing about it for Eust a little 'hile4 or 'hate&er4 one of the things % miss you @no'4 % guess maybe from not telling people or 'hate&er4 about % 'as ill . . . but uh4 after % told them4 some months later4 'hen % had four 'ee@s to li&e4 % didn5t find anybody that allo'ed me to be desperate4 that could understand some of the things that % didn't 'ant to do. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd that brought on another guilt trip. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd so no' %'m in the process of @ind of 'ashing all that stuff out. T 7 =hm4 hmm. %s that part of the hurtB "ou referred earlier to hurt and % didn't Cuite understand that. ,C7 =hm4 hmm- % can understand the feeling of desperateness and also % can understand ho' hard it 'ould be to ha&e no one really understand that feeling in you.
6Rogers Commentary /7 I can let hi$ feel desperate. Ariends and fa$ily cannot allow this. It's i$portant that so$eone can really per$it it. I also go back to his earlier feeling of hurt& I wanted to get a $ore co$plete feeling for his inner world but he& as you will see& doesn't pick up on this particular portion.8 C !7 %'&e lost my father;in;la'4 'hich 'as a terrible loss to me4 and it 'as a loss that % ne&er could tal@ to my 'ife or anybody else about. ,T7 Fmm. =hm4 hmm- :nd % ga&e a lot to that family4 you @no'4 for fi&e or4 % don't @no'4 se&en years % guess. :nd 'hen % 'ent bac@4 there 'ere Eust some things that happened that they sho'ed me there 'asn't4 there 'asn't &ery much of a connection. There 'asn't &ery much of a connection bet'een4 bet'een all of that lo&e and 'hate&er that % put in4 and then all of a sudden you @no'4 % became Eust another uh4 you @no'4 % became Eust another blac@ person. % became Eust another nigger. "ou @no'4 and % thin@ it's important to understand that my 'ife is you @no'4 is 'hite4 German %rish. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. % see.- :nd % thin@ that's a part of that 'hole thing. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- Gm4 'hen 'e first married4 you @no'4 my father;in;la'4 'e Eust fought tooth and nail4 but then after that 'e lo&ed each other . . . for about si? long4 good4 hard years. :nd basically4 he 'as my only connection and 'hen he died . . . % found that there 'as no support. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- There 'as absolutely no support. T !7 :nd %4 % imagine . . . or perhaps % catch a little bit of resentment4 that you really poured a lot of lo&e and caring into that family and had gotten some bac@ from him4 but after his death4 none of it paid off for you in any 'ay. C /7 Right. $or sure. "eah4 % thin@ that4 you @no'4 'hat % 'anted4 'hat % 'anted more than anything else4 'as Eust to you @no'4 % guess4 'as lo&e. % guess it 'as that mutualness4 you @no'4 'hat % felt for each of them. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 % thought that 'as not only my responsibility4 but you @no'4 it 'as &ery natural for me to care about people ,T7 =hm4 hmmthat 'ere &ery close to my 'ife ,T7 =hm4 hmm- at that time. T /7 So it hurt not to get that lo&e bac@. %t 'asn't mutual.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 71
C +7 9h yeah. $or sure it did. 6Rogers Commentary +7 I always try to sense the feelings 1ust below his words and he welco$es that. I try to catch the resent$ent and the hurt which he hasn't yet "oiced "ery clearly.8 C *7 :nd there 'ere &arious things that happened in terms of things that 'ere happening bac@ east . . . that people 'ere 'ondering 'hy % had left4 you @no'4 a good position and all that @ind of garbage. :nd uh4 because4 see4 % hadn't told anybody that % had leu@emia. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd uh4 one thing led to another. :nd there 'ere stories that needed4 % thin@ to um4 % thin@ e&ery story4 e&ery situation needs to ha&e t'o sides. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd there 'as only one side and % 'as4 % 'as hurt because % didn't ha&e my chance. T *7 "ou ne&er 'ere heard. C )7 <e&er. :nd4 but at the same time4 li@e4 in a 'ay4 in a 'ay4 % used to feel that % put myself in that position. Because no one @ne' 'hat 'as happening inside of me4 you see. Because % had to ta@e care of myself. :nd % had to be better than e&erybody else. Because % 'as al'ays told that. "ou can4 in a maEority society % had to be 334 !33 percent better than my 'hite counterpart ,T7 =hm4 hmm- or my bro'n counterpart4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- or 'hate&er. % had to do that4 because that's 'hat it too@ to sur&i&e . T )7 =hm4 hmm. :nd in stri&ing for that4 one reason you really 'eren't heard 'as that you didn't dare e?press the person you 'ere4 the sic@ person you 'ere at that time. C .7 9h4 no. <ot at ; % really4 % really had a fear of that. "ou @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % really4 % guess4 didn't trust some things that 'ere happening4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- um4 gee4 at a 'hole global le&el4 you @no'. But to4 then to entrust that @ind of information ,T7 =hm4 hmm- to other people. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % 'as &ery uneasy about that. ,T7 $rightening- Very uneasy about that. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd % did a lot of things that % didn't4 didn't really 'ant to do ,T7 =hm4 hmmbecause % 'as &ery desperate. Gm4 % ga&e up my4 my Eob and came out here4 and % did consultant 'or@ and so forth4 but % had to use a great deal of money for diagnosticians or ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'hate&er and4 and4 and all @inds of little gimmic@s to @eep me ali&e. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd conseCuently % had to borro' money. :nd 'hen % borro'ed that money4 % didn't borro' it in a 'ay that 'ould say to you li@e4 >Fey4 uh4 Ted or 'hate&er4 % need4 you @no' R amount of dollars4 you @no'4 and li@e . . . 'cause %'&e got4 % ha&e leu@emia4> and so forth. %'m scared to death to say that4 you @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 % needed some money because of uh4 % thin@ % must ha&e in&ented about ten stories4 you @no'. :nd % thin@ about it and you @no'4 li@e4 % felt real bad about that4 you @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd uh4 because li@e % had de&eloped a professional uh4 attitude % thin@4 about myself4 or at least a @ind of . . . % had a lot of respect from a lot of people. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd you @no'4 % really did ha&e that . . . % don5t @no' if that 'as lo&e or caring or 'hate&er4 but it 'as Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 72
respect. ,T7 "eah- Ahen % got in&ol&ed 'ith money4 the situation 'ith money4 % had to borro' money and % really couldn't tell. :nd in a 'ay4 you @no'4 % really 'anted to tell4 but % hadn't e&en told my 'ife ,T7 "eah- and my family. ,T7 "eah:nd % said4 o@ay4 'ell one thing4 you @no'4 and %'m gonna4 %'m going to be o@ay4 and this money is going to be here4 and e&erything else li@e that and % thin@ that's a part of4 uh4 me that % really4 %'m not really sure4 that ah4 you @no'4 is really acceptable you @no'4 because % ha&e to be perfect. T .7 "eah. "eah. So4 it's not acceptable e&en to you to do some of the things you did4 and also % gather to li&e behind that facade of falsehood for Cuite a'hile . . . not telling anybody 'hat the score 'as. C 27 9h yeah. $or sure. Very true. % . . . 6Rogers Commentary *7 The hurt and fear of re"ealing hi$self as ill is al$ost worse than the illness8 C (7 That 'as &ery difficult. The most difficult part4 % thin@4 of ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % thin@ it 'as the most difficult part of my illness. %t 'as that4 >Fey4 % couldn't ha&e cancer4> you @no'. That's li@e ha&ing V.1. and three @inds of V.1. at the same time. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 ho' do you tell someone4 >% ha&e leu@emia . . . % ha&e less than a year to li&e4 or 'hate&er ,T7 =hm4 hmm- . . . and % need some money.> ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 it's li@e 'hen people you @no'4 loo@ at a drin@ing glass or 'hate&er4 and you @no'4 after you told them you ha&e cancer . . . and they ma@e @ind of a . . . shy a'ay from your drin@ing glasses. T (7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm. Fo' could you possibly let anybody @no' 'here you 'ere physicallyB 6Rogers Commentary )7 :ne of the hardest things for a dying person is the reaction that others ha"e to hi$. #o& when he's talking of death and dying& I feel it's highly i$portant to be right with hi$B to recogni9e and accept his feelings.8 C !37 % really don't @no'. % really4 you @no'4 %'&e really tried to debate this thing in myself for a long time4 and % really4 % really don't @no' ho' % could ha&e done anything any other 'ay4 because4 you see4 it 'as my character ,T7 =hm4 hmm- to not4 % ne&er . . . %'m al'ays there to help other people. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % 'asn't there for . . . to say4 >Fey4 you @no'4 % need some nourishment right no'4 'hate&er4 you @no'.> T !37 "ou'&e Eust had no e?perience in being the needy person that needed help and needed . . . C ! 7 :bsolutely. E&en 'hen % needed money or 'hate&er4 % didn't need money ,T7 "eah- because of my health. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- %t 'as because of maybe bad business e?perience or an in&estment4 or something or other . . . and li@e4 for the Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 73
people 'ho trusted that @ind of information or 'hate&er . . . li@e %4 you @no'4 'ell4 %'m going to deal 'ith that. %'m going to deal 'ith that. But that's not in my character4 it's ne&er been in my character. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % had to @eep that image. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % had to @eep the image. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd uh4 it cost me my family4 a couple children4 you @no'. % guess that 'as the most important thing that it cost me. % thin@ the other things are really not that important. But4 but 'hat it did do4 'hat the leu@emia did do . . . it helped me to4 to understand that %'m Eust an ordinary human being li@e e&erybody else. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm"ou @no'4 and sometimes you @no'4 li@e4 e&erybody has problems4 and so forth4 but at the same time it 'as li@e4 it 'as my character to do that. "ou @no'4 % 'ouldn't tell them. <o. $or 'hatB T ! 7 But it sounds as though the leu@emia helped you to really destroy the notion of you as the >image.> C !!7 % thin@4 % thin@ it did. % thin@ it did. $inally4 at the end it did. % use the end . . . the four 'ee@s 'hen % 'as told % had four 'ee@s to li&e ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmmthat 'as the end4 at the end of the leu@emia. E&en though %'m in remission no'4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % don't plan to4 % don't . . . you see4 % ha&en't told you that % 'ent to4 % 'ent for the tests and ga&e enormous amounts of blood. % don't @no' 'here they 'ere sending that blood or 'hat they 'ere doing 'ith it. % ga&e an e?traordinary amount4 but nothing4 nothing 'as coming of that. But you @no'4 one of the things % did @no' that if % 'ent to the hospital4 if % did 'hat the doctors said4 %'d probably die. :nd it's almost li@e4 you @no'4 'hen you first become an agnostic in school4 or 'hate&er4 you @no'4 you go through . . . li@e % 'ent through all this religious training4 'hate&er. . . and % said4 >% don't thin@ that there's a God.> 9r4 >that isn't really important4 or 'hate&er.> ,T7 =hm4 hmm- But then at the same time4 % hold bac@4 you @no'. :nd e&ery no' and then % gi&e an occasional prayer ,T7 RightEust in case. T !!7 #lay it safe. C !/7 $or sure. % thin@ that's 'hat % 'as also doing in terms of the leu@emia. % really did. % had . . . the logical end to leu@emia that my uncle and cousin had had before me 'as to die. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- Aas to die. :nd no' % thin@ % @no' some things about that4 though4 that you don't ha&e to die. Because it 'asn't until % sa' e&erybody thro'ing lea&es and things on my gra&e that % really understood that % had the po'er to do that4 and that4 by lying for money4 'as probably 'orse for me than . . . than the leu@emia4 % thin@. ,T7 Fmm- % don5t @no' if that ma@es any sense . . . T !/7 "eah. %t does. C !+7 <o' % said it. ,laughsT !+7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm. Someho'4 'hat % get out of it is that being @ind of false to yourself really 'as more of a burden to you4 causes you more concern4 than the Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 74
fact that you had leu@emia. C !*7 9h4 for sure. $or sure. 6Rogers Commentary .7 I think this is the first ti$e he "oices a feeling that he has not reali9ed before. That's a significant point in any first inter"iew.8 C !)7 The other thing 'as that % 'as about ready to lea&e my children4 you @no'4 &ery young4 beautiful children . . . children that %'d brought into the 'orld to do the same @ind of4 @ind of thing that % 'as doing4 you @no' . . . to ta@e the 'orld on their bac@ ,T7 =hm4 hmm- and change things. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 and no' that helped me no' 'ith my @ids in the sense of % don't thin@ % 'ant to raise my children li@e that. T !)7 =hm4 hmm. "ou don't 'ant them to carry the @ind of burden and image that you carried. C !.7 <o. <ot at all. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- <ot because they're part %ndian. <ot because they're part blac@. 9r not because they're third 'orld or 'hate&er. They don't ha&e to carry that burden of trying to change and al'ays being the recipient of certain policies and things li@e that and al'ays being controlled. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- :nd % ne&er really4 it made me feel apart . . . because % don't @no' if my second grade teacher thought they 'ere doing me a fa&or by telling me % 'as a credit to my race4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- but then . . . they certainly did4 and % didn't feel good about it then. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- ,Sigh- That's a start. ,T7 =hm4 hmm6Rogers Commentary 27 4e has co$e to the end of his rehearsed part and now he is in new territory. I'$ co$fortable with the silence and I'$ eager to see where he goes ne)t. It's his choice.8 C !27 :nd % remember tal@ing to a person 'hen % came do'n. %'d Eust disco&ered % 'as in remission4 and % 'as hobbling on a cane4 and so forth4 and God4 the first thing % did do'n here 'as to ta@e a motorcycle ride. <o'4 for me4 that 'as radical. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- $or me4 that 'as e?tremely radical4 but it 'as fun ,T7 =hm4 hmm- you @no'4 and it 'as one of the first fun things that % did. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- Since % 'as ill4 you @no'4 because on top of ha&ing the leu@emia % 'as fighting a di&orce and ha&ing my property ripped a'ay from me4 you @no'4 and ha&ing married into a family4 and a family that 'as a different race than % 'as4 and % learned later4 as my 'ife told me that she didn't @no' that a 'hole community 'anted to di&orce. ,T7 Laughs- Li@e they 'ere married. :nd % 'as hurt by that too. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 ho' &ery good4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- Christian4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- upstanding people ,T7 =hm4 hmm- can ma@e some pretty serious Eudgments 'ithout @no'ing you @no'4 the 'hole story. T !27 :nd % catch a note of bitterness there. : feeling that they really ma@e Eudgments 'ithout4 'ithout @no'ing the picture. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 75
C !(7 $or sure. $or sure. Aell4 the thing that 'as incredible 'as that % didn't . . . forgot about4 % guess is that to understand4 that you @no'4 . . . % forgot for maybe a couple of years ; <o'4 %'m going to o&ersimplify this ne?t thing ,T7 =hm4 hmm- . . . but % forgot that % 'as blac@4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- in that family4 in that community4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- or 'hate&er4 you see. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd then % Cuic@ly learned that % . . . T !(7 :nd then you 'ere reminded all o&er again. C /37 9h4 for sure. $or sure. :nd % thin@ that also caused a lot of bitterness or 'hate&er. ,R =hm4 hmm- :nd that @ind of stuff % 'ant to get out of me. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 % can't deal 'ith that . . . someone else's trip on me. Because % really don't hate anybody for that or 'hate&er. : lot of the things %'&e brought on myself. But at the same time4 % thin@ % really do ha&e the right at that time to ha&e been desperate. T /37 "eah. C / 7 :nd % didn't really understand that. 6Rogers Commentary (7 This is a real step in self'acceptance: the acceptance of hi$self as a desperate person.8 C /!7 %t 'as Eust4 you @no'4 hey it 'as so bad4 it got so bad . . . this 'hole trip of leu@emia . . . and lying and things li@e that or 'hate&er4 that % don't @no'. % thought4 >Aell4 if % can Eust get ahead a little bit4 and ma@e enough money to pay off all those people or 'hate&er4 or4 and e&en in my 'ill and 'ith my insurance> ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 % made sure that all of the people 'ere going to be paid or 'hate&er ,T7 =hm4 hmm- but4 you @no'. % still 'asn't4 it still 'asn't acceptable to me for some reason . . . % didn't 'ant to go out o'ing anybody or ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'hate&er4 because that 'asn't4 'ouldn't be the :merican thing to do4 % guess at that time. T /!7 That 'ouldn't be li&ing up to the standards you'&e set for yourself and other people ha&e set for you. C //7 9h. "eah. $or sure. :nd li@e4 %'m a little tired of those standards. ,T7 =hm4 hmm%'m really a little tired ,T7 =hm4 hmm- of those standards. :nd % basically thin@ that the @ind of things that um4 . . . me and 'hat %'m into4 and 'hat turns me on . . . is good for me. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd % don't really @no' 'hy % 'ent into remission. "ou @no'4 % ha&e some feelings about that . . . you @no'4 personal4 religious4 'hate&er. But % thin@ a great part of that had something to do 'ith deciding that % 'anted to li&e. T //7 =hm4 hmm. #erhaps4 sounds as though you're saying se&eral things here4 that Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 76
perhaps deciding you 'anted to li&e made a real difference. :nd also deciding that 'hat you 'ere e?periencing as your needs and your 'ants and so on4 really had some &alidity. C /+7 "eah. %t's really good to hear you say that. Because % really feel that. Because 'hat % did % thin@ 'as . . . 6Rogers Commentary 37 It is so good to feel understood. It's releasing. It shows the "alue of really getting inside the client's world and understanding it and co$$unicating that understanding to the client.8 ; 6Rogers Commentary desperation.8 7 Cittle by little he is e)periencing his bitterness& and his real
C /.7 =y phone bill had to be about S 4*33 a month you @no'4 because % 'as so 'orried about ,T7 =hm4 hmm- the children4 you @no'. T /.7 =hm4 hmm. So that 'as a big4 hea&y burden too4 then huhB C /27 9h4 yeah. "eah4 it really 'as pretty hea&y. %t 'as pretty hea&y. 6Rogers Commentary !7 This is the first co$fortable pause. I feel he is kind of catching up with hi$self and with the feelings he has "oiced.8 End of #art ,End of first reel of the filmT /27 Life has been a &ery fluctuating up and do'n4 @ind of C /(7 $or sure. But the leu@emia too@ me a'ay from =ichigan4 'hich % ha&e . . . oh4 bless somebody for that. :nd if you @no'4 % only li&e a couple of more months4 or 'hate&er4 it's a lot better ,T7 =hm4 hmm- than li&ing under uh4 constant stress ,T7 =hm4 hmm- you @no' of 'orrying about not being accepted4 or not being accepted. T /(7 But that's one good thing that the leu@emia did for you. C +37 "eah. %t really 'as. Because % got a di&orce out of it. =y goodness4 % got to California. Gm4 and % really mean that. 6Rogers Commentary /7 8re"iously& the di"orce was a hurt. 4ere it sounds $ore like a blessing. I wish to follow and be with each feeling as it arises no $atter how ephe$eral it $ay be.8 C + 7 But e&en 'hen % say it4 you @no'4 there's . . . it 'as a rough4 scratchy4 scratchy road . . . and you @no'4 it's e?tremely difficult for me to tal@ about it no'. ,T7 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 77
=hm4 hmm- %t really is . 6Rogers Commentary +7 Notice how his speech has slowed down. It shows he's working on hi$self. % client's whole speech pattern changes when he's e)ploring difficult new terrain.8 C +!7 %n getting all those bad things out4 %'m not sure in terms of ho' to deal ,T7 =hm4 hmm- yet4 or 'hate&er. :nd %'m really not sure. But there are some you @no'4 some things you @no'4 li@e4 %'&e really got to come to grips 'ith it. >Aell4 finally4> you @no'. Because they're still4 you @no'4 'hen % tal@ to my 'ife from /4333 miles a'ay and she tells me about 'hat her mother thin@s and all sorts of other things4 or 'hate&er4 % get sic@. %t happened yeah . . . it happened the other day. She called and e&erything 'as really great and then she'd begin to tal@ about a lot of other people4 and 'hat their attitudes and 'hat their opinions 'as. That night % got &ery little sleep and 'as ready to go bac@ to the hospital and 'as ready to ha&e leu@emia too. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % 'as ready. "ou @no'B T +!7 So you feel as though in some sense you prepare the readiness for the illness4 or you4 are ta@ing in something from outsideO it ma@es you ready to ha&e it. C +/7 %t seems li@e it. "ou @no'4 % didn't belie&e that. % didn't belie&e that statement that you Eust made4 some time ago4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- but % belie&e it no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % belie&e it. 6Rogers Commentary *7 % fascinating awareness of the psychological source of his sy$pto$s.8 C ++7 "ou @no'4 % recall 'hen % 'ent bac@4 and4 and4 and um4 for the first time4 my parents had learned that % had leu@emia. "ou @no'4 'hat do you say to your motherB Ahat do you say to your fatherB % remember % got a phone call. :nd % 'as staying at my 'ife's house 'here 'e 'ere going4 @eep in mind no'4 'e 'ere going through a di&orce4 the 'hole bit4 and 'ere4 uh celebrating my children's birthday at the same time. =y mother calls. >Ae're coming o&er.> <obody at the house. :ll of a sudden % lose my . . . my &ision goes. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 that 'as one of the symptoms ,T7 =hm4 hmm- of leu@emia. :nd uh4 and4 it scare;4 it scared the hell out of me ,T7 =hm4 hmm- li@e % really 'anted to run. But % couldn't run4 % couldn't see. ,T7 Couldn't see.- :nd um4 it 'as only 'hen % got bac@ to California that % tried to put that together4 you @no' ,T7 =hm4 hmm- of 'hat happened 'hen ,T7 =hm4 hmm- in terms of you @no'4 the paralysis that % had in terms of my legs. %t's incredible4 it really seemed li@e someho'4 someho' %'&e got control of that4 in some 'ay but % mean %'m not really sure. But %'m con&inced that % ha&e control. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- But %'m not sure ho'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmmT ++7 % gather you feel that 'here before these things happened to you because of 'hat happened to you from the outside4 no' you are beginning to feel control o&er it yourself . . . from the inside. %s that4 is that part of 'hat you're sayingB Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 78
C +*7 % thin@ that's 'hat %'m saying. 6Rogers Commentary )7 This raises the whole ,uestion of what is illness; In what sense is it psychological and what sense is it physical; I can only go with the psychological reality as he presents it to $e.8 C +)7 Ahen %'m positi&e and 'hen %5m doing things that % enEoy4 % don't ha&e symptoms ,T7 =hm4 hmm- anymore. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % don't ha&e symptoms. :nd % don't you @no'4 li@e4 'hen % came do'n here4 the doctors 'anted me to ha&e transfusions and things li@e that4 you @no'4 and % remember one doctor saying to me4 >% don't @no' really 'ho's got you into playing this tennis and all that4 or 'hate&er4 but you really need to come in here and ha&e a transfusion.> % said4 >$or 'hatB %'m doing o@ay.> >To be on the safe side.> "ou @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmm- That's . . . 'ell4 % 'on't say 'hat that is. ,Rogers laughs- But4 you @no'4 li@e4 to some e?tent though4 that confirms some things to me about not trusting doctors to ta@e care of myself. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- %'m tal@ing about the leu@emia. ,T7 "eah- %'m certainly not trying to indict all doctors or the medical profession ,T7 Sure- by 'hat happened to me4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- you @no'4 % thin@4 % hope4 in some 'ay that other people 'ho ha&e life;threatening illnesses can deal 'ith it because % thin@ % ha&e4 and % do ha&e that control. :nd li@e4 since % 'as .4 to some e?tent4 'hen % 'ent do'n in that basement and turned that light off4 or 'hate&er4 and % shut the outside 'orld off . . . or 'hate&er4 someho' %'&e lost that . . . because someho' in the process of becoming educated and socialiDed4 and 'hate&er4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- % let other people control 'hat % 'anted and 'hat % 'anted to do. :nd % really . . . % did. That 'as a . . . Mesus4 that 'as a4 yeah4 'ell4 o@ay. T +)7 That has a lot of meaning to me4 and % 'ant to ma@e sure %'m getting it straight. 1o'n in that basement as a .;year old 'ith the lights out . . . you 'ere really finding yourself and4 % gather4 trusting yourself. ,C7 =hm4 hmm- :nd then life 'as4 said to you4 ><o4 no4 don't do that. Ae ha&e the standards for you. Li&e up to our e?pectations. "ou'&e got to be the image. "ou'&e got to be Eust right. :nd e&erything.> :nd no' you are gradually recapturing 'hat you felt as a .;year old. C +.7 % belie&e that to be true. Because e&en though that you @no'4 the responsibility4 you @no'4 it 'as li@e something inside of me could touch something that 'asn't seen . . . 'hen % 'as se&en. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- :nd % can't remember 'hat the boo@ 'as that "oung 'rote4 or 'hate&er. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- But it had an e?traordinary effect on me4 this se&en; year;old4 you @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 % started 'riting poetry. =y first poem. But % guess % did lose it. % did lose it. Li@e % still had it4 but all this garbage about me being . . . T +.7 %t 'as 'ell buriedB C +27 "eah. "eah. :nd then other people 'ere shaping me up by saying4 'ell4 you @no'4 >"ou're really good if you do it this 'ay4 or 'hate&er.> Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 79
T +27 >"ou're a credit to your race.> C +(7 9h4 yeah. >"ou're e?traordinary. "ou're a credit to your race.> "ou @no'4 and4 % don't @no'. =aybe they meant &ery 'ell4 or 'hate&er4 but it didn't do the Eob. %t didn't do the Eob4 you @no'4 because in a 'ay4 by accepting that @ind of praise4 and their @ind of . . . buying into their @ind of system4 or 'hate&er4 li@e4 % ga&e up something that % @ne' already at . years old. T +(7 :nd that something4 as % get it4 is you 'ere gi&ing up something of yourself. C *37 "eah. %'&e . . . sounds good. "eah4 % did. % did. 6Rogers Commentary .7 This really touches hi$. 4e s letting it sink in. 4e's e)periencing his loss of self. This is the "ery heart of therapy. +hen I can pro"ide a cli$ate in which the client can e)perience his buried feelings rather than describe the$ or be told about the$& it has a $uch $ore powerful and enduring effect.8 C * 7 "ou @no'4 maybe %'d ha&e been better off if %'d Eust gone on and li&ed my life rather than try to li&e other people's li&es or 'hate&er4 you @no'. But % ga&e up being happy myself. "ou @no'4 % didn't e?pect you @no'4 % guess % didn't e?pect myself to be happy4 or to really maybe deser&e happiness4 or something. T * 7 Sounds li@e you 'anted so much to help people4 that ah helping yourself didn't fit into that picture at all. C *!7 <ot at all. <ot at all. There 'as enough to do 'ithout 'orrying about your o'n ,T7 =hm4 hmm- little problems and things li@e that ,T7 =hm4 hmm- at that time4 so % said to myself then4 you @no'B 9h4 yeah. : lot of things are racing through my mind as 'e tal@ and4 but there are certain things that go through this 'hole thing that % pic@ out in terms of 'hen % 'as se&en4 and those are Eust really important times for me4 you @no'. They 'ere important times in terms of 'hen % 'as alone4 and 'hen % 'as sure4 and 'hen % felt good and % felt a part of the you @no'4 the stars4 the uni&erse. % really did feel that. "ou @no'4 % remember % used to go out 'hen % 'as .4 24 ( years old . . . three or four o'cloc@ in the morning4 loo@ up in that beautiful s@y and see those stars ,T7 =hm4 hmm- or 'hate&er4 ,T7 =hm4 hmmand %'d say4 >That's mine o&er there and %'m going to be there.> :nd % felt good. % felt % don't @no'4 in a sense integrated4 more integrated than after . . . and as % continued ,T7 =hm4 hmm- to do this and fill out the forms for a scholarship4 or things li@e that4 % lost it. % really lost it. T *!7 :t se&en4 you 'ere really a part of the uni&erse and you @ne' it. C */7 That's 'hat % thought. But you @no'4 'hat does a . year old @no'4 you @no'4 % don't @no'.
6Rogers Commentary 27 This has been a $ar"elous picture of the wholeness of the child and it's description by society. I'$ trying as in all $y therapy to help hi$ get back to the kind of realness he had as a child.8 C *+7 % thin@ % did. "es4 % @ne' it. % @ne' it because % @ne'4 because % 'as al'ays dra'n to the stars4 you @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- %t 'asn't anything li@e my parents 'ould 'a@e me up in the middle of the night4 or 'hate&er4 % 'o@e upO % don't @no' 'hy. T *+7 %t 'as something that you 'anted to do. %t 'as something you had a &ie'. <ot because somebody else said4 >Fey you should be interested in the stars or something li@e that.> C **7 $or sure. $or sure. :nd % 'as4 % thin@ at that time % 'as really the best person that % could be. :nd you @no'4 % guess4 for some reason4 % don't 'ant to heap it on e&erybody else you @no'4 but % 'as Eust taught4 conditioned or something that . . . to not trust that anymore. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- To . . . you @no'. ,T7 Gh4 huh- %t's li@e those things 'hen you're young you hold onto or 'hate&er. T **7 >But then4 that's Eust childish. That's Eust . . . > C *)7 Right. Right. "eah. T *)7 >1on't trust that stuff.> ,C7 =hm4 hmm- >They're telling you 'hat's right.> ,C7 "eah.C *.7 "eah4 yeah. %'&e really suppressed . . . % guess a hell of a lot of anger. 'Cause you @no'4 'hen you said that4 you @no'4 % felt you @no'4 li@e . . . you @no'4 % thin@ of all @ind of 'ords no'. 6Rogers Commentary (7 #peaking in society's "oice when I said& D:h that's 1ust childishness& they're telling you what is right.D There's so$ething intuiti"e on $y part but it released his anger. I like to follow $y intuition and I'"e learned to trust it.8 C *27 Really for sure. "ou5re a minority . . . and in terms of a minority 'ithin a minority 'ithin a minority. Li@e mother's 9sage. She's part %ndian4 ,T7 =hm4 hmm- her family . . . that history. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- $ather a descendant of blac@ sla&es. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'B :nd then being pic@ed out4 you @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmmBecause that's 'hat it 'as4 you @no'4 'cause % @ne' 'hat 'as happening to other people in the class4 'hether they 'ere 'hite or blac@ or 'hate&er. But it 'as . . . you @no'4 but % al'ays really understood that % had to be !33 percent better than e&erybody else so %'d achie&e. % almost @illed myself playing football because % 'anted to be the littlest superstar4 'hate&er that means. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- %t's craDy things. "ou @no'4 it 'as that competiti&eness4 or 'hate&er4 you @no'. :nd it 'as that % 'ouldn't ha&e anything if % didn't compete and if % didn't do it li@e4 you @no'4 somebody else told me to do. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- % guess.
T *27 So those standards and 'hat they did to you really4 really dominated your life4 if % get it right. C *(7 % thin@ so. % really thin@ so. %4 % uh4 my reference point became . . . and % guess % bought into that. "ou @no'4 % really bought into that. :nd % really4 it really seems foreign to me no'. %t seems as foreign4 % thin@4 as leu@emia4 you @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no' %'&e . . . it really does4 you @no'. T *(7 "eah. 9ne 'ay of putting it is % feel you are saying4 >1amn it4 that se&en year old 'as more right than all that's gone on in bet'een.> C )37 "eah. "eah. :nd maybe trying to get bac@ to that4 and 'hate&er4 and no' and uh4 you @no'4 % Eust 'onder ho'4 ho' that person at . 'ould ha&e been dealing 'ith the leu@emia and all those other problems no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- %t 'ould ha&e been interesting4 % thin@. #robably 'ould'&e handled it much better. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- ,#ause . seconds- ,Laughs- $eel some @ind of release. % don't @no'. 6Rogers Commentary !37 Notice how his "oice has slowed& beco$e $ore thoughtful and cal$. 4e's getting closer to hi$self by re"ealing so$e of hi$self. %nd it feels good.8 C ) 7 % told a lot of people you @no'4 about um4 about me. "ou @no'4 and something that came out you @no'4 and that other part of me may be . . . %'m really 'ondering about trusting too4 right no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no' ,T7 =hm4 hmm- 'cause %'&e trusted a lot of other people4 too. ,T7 =hm4 hmmT ) 7 :nd so you're 'ondering4 >"eah4 but can % trust himB> C )!7 Fmm. Aell . . . T )!7 =aybe part of that reason is you feel4 >=y God4 %'&e told him a lot. %'&e trusted him. Fa&e % trusted him too muchB> C )/7 Sure. Aell4 % guess %'m Eust going to ha&e to deal 'ith it in terms of do % trust myself to tell you. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- "ou @no'4 but % do ha&e that4 you @no'. % ha&e that history. ,Laughs6Rogers Commentary ! 7 Is it safe to trust $e with this $ore "ulnerable part of hi$self; Clients often ha"e such doubts and I respond in a way which helps hi$ to reali9e that I recogni9e and accept that ,uestion.8 C )+7 "ou @no'4 . . . but %'&e really been you @no'4 li@e a lot of other people4 li@e a lot of other people4 you @no'4 or 'hate&er. But %'&e learned so many things from this4 this 'hole thing4 or 'hate&er4 you @no'. :nd e&en Eust sitting here and tal@ing 'ith you4 'hether you're Carl Rogers or Mesus Christ or 'hate&er4 you @no' . . . T )+7 9r Moe 1oa@es. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 82
C )*7 9r 'home&er4 you @no'4 it's a4 still it's a &ery difficult thing for me to . . . T )*7 "eah. "eah. C ))7 :nd % don't @no' if % Eust ha&en't allo'ed myself to be open4 you @no'4 and to be needy or 'hate&er. But is that Eun@B That >credit to . . .> "ou @no'4 that really ma@es me mad. That really made me mad. % mean4 % @eep4 in mind as %'m tal@ing4 it @eeps coming bac@ to me4 you @no'. >Credit to my race4 to my race.> % remember that teacher so 'ell4 'ith big boobs4 and she put my head right in them and said % 'as a credit to her race. :nd you @no'4 that . . . oh4 that burned me up. T ))7 So as you get deeper into that feeling it isn't Eust that you4 earlier4 you said you 'ondered if it 'as 'ise of her to do that. <o' you @no'4 >1amn it4 %'m really angry at her for doing that to me.> C ).7 "eah. :nd %'m e&en more angrier 'hen % see it happening all the time. :nd % don't 'ant it to happen to my @ids. ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd % didn't really 'ant my @ids to be a credit to their race. "ou @no'B ,T7 =hm4 hmm- :nd % @no' that no'. Getting militant. ,Laughter-,#ause ) seconds-,Sigh6Rogers Commentary !!7 4e finds it "ery hard to e)perience his anger. 4e only talks about it rather coolly. The sigh though& is one of real letting down. % rela)ing& a trusting. +e really are in relationship.8 T ).7 9ur time's about up and % don't @no' if there5s more you 'ant to say no' for today4 o@ay. 9r if not4 'e can call it Cuits for today. C )27 Aell %'d li@e to be able to tell you something. T )27 :ll right. C )(7 That is going to ma@e me feel good. That is going to continue to ha&e me feel positi&e about myself and to gro' and to be nourished or 'hate&er4 but %'m really not sure 'hat to say. "ou @no'4 but % really 'ant to do that4 so that % can continue to li&e4 you @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmm. =hm4 hmm- That's important to me4 and so ,T7 =hm4 hmm- um4 but it's Eust not coming. But % thin@ % really 'ant to say that and be comfortable in saying4 you @no'4 >% got ra@ed o&er the coals and % resent it and %'m mad and %'m angry and % need to get that to be angry ,T7 9@ay- "ou @no'. ,T7 =hm4 hmmT )(7 >9@ay. % 'as really scre'ed by a lot of people4 and % ha&e reason to be angry4 and % am angry4 and % need to say that.> % can hear the anger in there. C .37 "eah. But you @no' ho' % ha&en't said it yet4 though4 you @no'. % really ha&en't. "ou @no'4 % thin@ it um4 % thin@ it's Eust a part of being ci&iliDed maybe. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 st %nter&ie'4 page 83
T .37 =hm4 hmm. "ou're tal@ing about it in a &ery ci&iliDed fashion. ,C7 Right- Li&ing up to those standards. C . 7 "eah. Ahich %'d li@e to Eust go bac@ and @ic@ some butts4 % thin@. ,Sigh- Aell4 enough of the militancy. T . 7 9@ayB Shall 'e call it Cuits for todayB C .!7 "eah. % thin@ so. T .!7 :lright good. See you tomorro'. 6Rogers Commentary !/7 4e has re"ealed $ore of hi$self than he e)pected to. 4e's going fro$ a presentation of hi$self to e)ploring hi$self. Aro$ talking politely to talking honestly about anger. I belie"e this has happened because I'"e followed e"ery feeling I could e"en when he see$s to be scattered& to be talking about se"eral different things& I'"e tried to stay with and respond to the $ost central of his feelings. I feel like we'"e $ade a start. :n a $ore intellectual le"el& this session pro"ides dra$atic e"idence of the theory that the child is open to all e)periencing. That he or she feels the locus of e"aluation is in the self. Then the fa$ily& the educational syste$ and the culture pound ho$e the lesson& D2on't belie"e in your own e)perience but learn to li"e by others' e)pectations. Then you'll be rewarded by lo"e.D Therapy $eans slowly discarding those intro1ections and gradually recapturing the person as he was in his childhood.8
This transcript is a&ailable for purposes of research4 study and teaching. %t may not be sold. Throughout this inter&ie' the responses of the therapist ,T- ,Rogers-4 and the client ,C- are numbered for easy reference. Carl Rogers Counsels an %ndi&idual on :nger and Furt ,$ilm- ,Code name;1ioneSecond %nter&ie' ;; (.. 6Source7 Ahiteley4 M. =. ,#roducer-. , (..-. Carl Rogers counsels an indi"idual on anger and hurt 6$ilm8. :merican #ersonnel and Guidance :ssociation.8 6Rogers7 This is the second inter&ie' 'ith a young man 'ho reports he has leu@emia4 but is in a state of remission. %n his first inter&ie' he realiDed that the self he had at age .4 'as a &ery precious self and that social e?pectations caused him to lose it. Fe had also approached the feelings of anger he has felt about 'hat has been done to this self and to him. But he has not yet e)pressed his anger. <o' the second sessions begins.8 T 7 C!7 T!7 C/7 9.0. Ahere do you 'ant to start this morningB Gh4 % don't @no'. % 'a ... % 'as thin@ing that 'hen 'e ... 'hen 'e tal@ed earlier about the4 the anger ... ,T7 =mm.- %'&e been thin@ing a great deal about that. %'&e thought a lot about 'hat you had to say about that. Right4 you @no'4 and %'m not sure that4 uh4 that % really don't 'ant to be angry4 you @no'4 and %'m not sure if anger ... being angry no'4 is a part of the process and %'&e got to do that4 but %'d li@e to ... % guess my uh ... % guess my mind uh academically or something4 you @no'4 and something other than emotion or 'hate&er4 li@e4 'ould li@e to tell me that4 uh4 %'d li@e to uh ... to not be angry and to s@ip o&er that part4 if that's a part of the process4 you @no'B But %'m not sure % can do that ,small laugh-4 you @no'. "our mind says sort of4 >9h4 cool it. 1on't ... don't get into uh4 such strong emo; tion>. $or sure. %t almost seems li@e that ... that uh 'hate&er is happening in my en&ironment or 'hate&er happened in my en&ironment is pulling me into again uh4 that @ind of a trap ... that @ind of a system that % don't particularly care ... er4 er4 you @no'4 if you @no' 'hat % mean. =mm. % thin@ % get that7 that your ... your mind is ta@ing the place of the system in saying no'4 uh4 >#lay it right. 1o the right ... do the proper thing>. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 85
T/7 C+7
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C*7 T*7 C)7 T)7 C.7
Right. But some other part of you is saying4 >"eah4 but there's some anger there>. $or sure. $or sure. There's some real anger there. Right. %t's ... it's almost li@e in this country ... and4 and %'&e al'ays felt li@e this ... you only ha&e about t'o options4 you @no'4 'hen you deal 'ith race ... you either ha&e to be ... you're either a racist or you're an anti;racist. ,T7 =mm.- :nd that doesn't really seem to be the @ind of thing that %'m4 you @no' .... % don't really care to be an anti;racist4 if you @no' 'hat % mean ,T7 =mm.- anymore. Gh4 and % don't 'anna be a reflection of any other ... of any other larger society at all. ,T7 =mm.- % really don't 'ant to ... "ou'd li@e to get in touch 'ith 'hat's going on in you. $or sure. <ot ... not some label or other. $or sure. % thin@ that % could probably trust that a lot better than4 than4 than trusting 'hat's happening or 'hat has happened. ,T7 =mm.- :nd4 um4 and 'hen % thin@ about that ... 'hen % thin@ about all of that4 you @no'4 uh4 the things that 'e tal@ed about ... %4 %4 % thin@ that4 um4 that's 'orse than the leu@emia. Gh4 uh;huh.
T.7 C27 T27 C(7
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C 37 "ou @no'B % @no' that may sound &ery strange or 'hate&er4 but a lot of things ha&e been strange T 37 =mm. =mm. C 7 "ou @no'4 since this timeO and4 and 'hat has happened to me didn't Eust start 'hen % found out that %4 you @no'4 'as going to die. ,T7 =mm.- 0ind of thing. T 7 Let me see if % understand that. That you feel as though4 um4 'hat the culture and people and so on ha&e ... ha&e done to you ... that's really caused you more suffering than the leu@emia. %s that 'hat you're sayingB C !7 % thin@ so. ,T7 =mm.- % thin@ so. :nd to some e?tent that ... that 'ould ... that is mild ... li@e4 for instance4 you @no'4 you ... % don't @no' 'hat 'ould ha&e happened if % had died or if % 'ill or 'hate&er4 but % certainly @no' 'hat's happening no' and 'hat happened. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 86
T !7 =mm. C /7 "ou see. T /7 =mm. C +7 :nd to some e?tent that ... that @ind of leu@emia4 that @ind of deterioration of the body is the same @ind of thing that happened to my mind. ,T7 =mm.- :nd um ... ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no'4 it5s ... T +7 So really4 'hat the culture did to you 'as gi&e you a cancer of the mind. C *7 "eah. %4 %4 %4 % really ... % thin@4 % really 'ant to say that and % really 'ant to4 um4 and % belie&e it4 you @no'4 and % guess that part of me that's4 that's my culture or is a part of the total4 ... is saying that it's not all that good to be angry4 you @no'4 because militancy is fro'ned upon or 'hate&er4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4 mmm4 mmm.- :nd % guess %'m using mili; militant in my sense because of ... it's4 it's Eust traditionally4 you @no'4 'hen blac@s become angry they're4 they're not angry ... they're militant. ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no' 'hat % mean ,slight laughter-B T *7 % @no'. :nother label. C )7 =mm. $or sure4 for sure4 for sure. "eah. :nd % ... and there's nobody that % can put my finger on4 you @no' ... that person that started the 'hole thing ... that process4 you @no'4 because that 'ould probably be a lot better for me4 you @no'4 then % probably 'ould4 'ould try to4 to do ... to do that person in. T )7 "eah ... %f you could ... ,C7 "ou @no'B- %f you could pin it on one person4 then your rage 'ould be Eustified and you could really get after that person. C .7 =mm. But ho'4 you @no' ... but ho' do you blame somebody else 'ho's sic@B ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no'B :nd % thin@ that people that do that to other people4 or at least ; 'hen it 'as done to me4 um ... they're really sic@4 you @no'. :nd here % am4 you @no'4 trying to ... you @no'4 % don't @no' if it 'as forgi&ing4 % don't @no' if %'m sounding confused or 'hate&er4 maybe4 you @no'4 but trying to accept their sic@ness4 you @no'. T .7 =mm. C 27 :nd at the same time4 you @no'4 % really ha&en't had the opportunity of letting anybody accept mine. T 27 =mm. C (7 9r maybe % ha&en't gi&en it to them4 but ... Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 87
T (7 "eah4 maybe you ha&en't gi&en it to them. C!37 Right. T!37 That's 'hat % sense is going on no' ... that you feel >there's so many reasons 'hy % really shouldn't e?press my anger. %'ll4 %'ll tal@ about all those reasons>. C! 7 "eah ,small laugh-4 for sure. % don't @no' really4 you @no'. =aybe %'ll Eust be angry one day ,small laugh- and maybe %'ll really feel better or 'hate&er4 you @no'4 and4 and % ... 'hen %4 'hen % smile4 % ... %'m uh4 you @no'4 %'m smiling but there5s a lot of ... and %'m sure you @no' that ... there's a lot of anger there. ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no'4 but it's not my nature to be angry ,T7 =mm.- %t's not my nature to be angry4 but % feel angry. T! 7 "eah. Gm4 and uh so % hear you e?plaining and e?plaining that uh4 uh4 >that's not my nature to be angry. %t's Eust that % am angry right no'>. C!!7 $or sure ,slight laugh-4 for sure. :nd to try to be angry in a producti&e ... % don't @no' ho' you'd be angry in a producti&e 'ay ... you @no'4 in terms of ... %t's li@e no' 'hen % ... 'hen % respond to people4 you @no' ... if4 if 'hen you encounter people4 you @no'4 'hether it's in the street4 'hether it's in a professional situation or 'hate&er4 you @no' ...if people send out certain messages and 'h ... no matter 'hat they're saying or 'hate&er ... there are certain @inds of messages that %'m getting4 you @no'. They're saying that4 >hey4 you @no' ... that isn't for me> @ind of thing4 you @no'. :nd that's before4 you @no'4 %'d li@e to 'or@ 'ith that4 and ride it ... li@e to try to communicate 'ithout alienating ... ,T7 =mm.- people or 'hate&er4 but no'4 you @no'4 %'m ending up saying4 you @no'4 li@e ...>hey4 that's a bunch of crap>4 ,T7 =mm.- you @no'. >1on't ... don't4 don't tell me about the 'ay that % should do it or4 or gi&e me all that non&erbal stuff about4 um4 you saying that %'m 904 but by non&er; bally saying ... >hey>4 you @no'4 >you're really not 90>4 you @no'. :nd % don't 'ant to hear that @ind of stuff anymore. T!!7 % get 'hat you're saying and % also feel Cuite strongly that % 'ant to say4 >it's 90 'ith me if you're angry here>... C!/7 ,#ause- ... But % don't4 you @no' ... it's hard to @no' ho' to be angry4 you @no' ... hard to ... T!/7 Sure4 sure4 %'m not saying you ha&e to be. ,C7 Sure-. %'m Eust saying it's 90 'ith me. C!+ =mm. T!+7 %f you feel li@e being angry4 you can be angry. C!*7 "ou really belie&e thatB Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 88
T!*7 1amn right. C!)7 , ! second pause.- Aell. , * second pause.- ,Sigh.- %'m not sure ho' to respond to that at all4 you @no'4 because a part of that anger is4 you @no'4 the ... the hurt4 and maybe if %5m... maybe 'hat's happening is that if %'m ... if % become angry and % really let it hang out4 that % really 'ill see ho' hurt % am. T!)7 =mm4 mmm. C!.7 :nd um4 you @no'4 that Eust came to me as you 'ere tal@ing. T!.7 =mm4 mmm. C!27 That4 you @no' ... T!27 #erhaps at a deeper le&el you're afraid of the hurt that you may e?perience if you let yourself e?perience the anger. C!(7 $or sure. T!(7 =mm. C/37 Really. T/37 =mm. C/ 7 ,Small laugh. #ause.- Gm4 'he' ... ,#ause.- % @eep getting these bloc@s4 you @no' ... these4 you @no' ... 'hen % come to something li@e that4 you @no'4 because4 you @no'4 to me that's a re&elation and %'m not really sure that4 uh4 ris@ing being angry % guess ... ,T7 =mm.- or something li@e that4 you @no'. T/ 7 =mm. C/!7 Losing control4 maybe. T/!7 "eah4 mmm. C//7 "ou @no'B ,#ause.- Aell ... ,ta@es a drin@ of 'ater-. T//7 % really do get that ... that this ... this realiDation that4 >=aybe 'hat %'m most afraid of is the hurt that % might e?perience>4 um4 ma@es you more cautious about 'hether you should4 'hether you should or could really let go of the ... of the anger. C/+7 % really don't @no'4 % thin@ that ...
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 89
T/+7 %t's a ris@. C/*7 Right. :nd it's4 you @no' ... % hadn't really thought about that before. T/*7 =mm. %t's ne'. C/)7 "eah. %t's4 uh ... % guess % 'ould be ... and %'d re;really 'ould admit openly that %'m hurt. %4 % said that %'&e been hurt. T/)7 =mm. C/.7 :nd % thin@4 you @no'4 that %4 % feel %'&e been hurt4 but to really ... to sho' that4 you @no' ... T/.7 To sho' it and ... % guess to let yourself sort of ... e?perience it4 that ... that4 % guess 'ould be difficult. C/27 "eah4 %4 % don't @no'. %t ... it's4 it4 it's as scary4 % thin@4 as the possibility of ... that % had before ... more than before4 about dying4 you @no'. T/27 =mm. =mm. C/(7 :nd maybe4 you @no' ... guess % 'as really scared because of the symptoms4 you @no'4 of4 of4 you @no' ... not being able to 'al@ and not being able to see4 and things li@e that4 you @no'. :nd ha&ing to depend on somebody4 you @no'. :nd for God's sa@e4 you @no' ... ha&ing to sho' somebody that %'m ... that %'m hurt.,T7 =mm.- :nd ho'4 you @no'4 ho' can % trust that to somebody4 ,T7 =mmyou @no'. Gmm ... T/(7 Seems li@e a horribly big ris@. C+37 "eah4 it is ,small laugh-. Seems to be getting bigger and bigger as 'e tal@T T+37 =mm4 mmm4 mmm. >Suppose % really e?pose to somebody the fact that %'m deeply4 deeply hurt>. That in a sense 'ould be comparable to ha&ing to be dependent on someone 'hen you can't 'al@ or something li@e that. C+ 7 ,Smiles and sighs.- Right. ,#ause.- "eah. %'d li@e to Eust to say it's my ... it5s trying my conditioning. % try not to ... one 'ay out of it ... and4 uh ,laughs- ... But that ... that isn't really acceptable to me no' because % ... %4 %4 %4 % feel that % ... % feel li@e ... that % ha&e to e?press that4 that hurt or 'hate&er4 but you @no'4 % can say that4 you @no'4 and % @no' right do'n here4 you @no'4 %'m ... %'m saying that and 'hen % say it4 you @no'4 it @ind of @eeps something do'n here. ,Gestures4 hand to chest4 palm do'n. Laughs.-4 you @no'. T+ 7 =mm. "ou're saying it from here up. ,Gestures4 hand at chest4 palm do'n-. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 90
C+!7 $or sure. $or sure ,small laugh-. % don't @no' ho' to do that e?actly ... 'hate&er ... %t's li@e % don't drin@ a lot4 you @no'4 because % don't really 'ant to4 uh ... ,T7 =mm.... e?perience that @ind of4 uh4 you @no' ... alcohol to me is a depressant any'ay4 and um4 you @no' ... that's about the only thing % really li@e to get out ... to really get out4 you @no'4 and maybe saying4 you @no'4 li@e %'ll lo&e somebody. >% ga&e of myself>. % did the ... hell ... the best % could4 and it 'asn't good enough4 you @no'4 and you @no'4 demand on top of demand and e&erything li@e that4 you @no' ... %t's Eust4 you @no' ... Shit ... you @no'4 it's4 it's li@e that %'d li@e to be able uhh ... and % said this here4 the other day or 'hen % 'as tal@ing to you ... that %'d li@e to be able to4 to say that ... yeah4 >% 'as scre'ed o&er and % got hurt and e&erything else>4 li@e that4 or 'hate&er4 but it's an ... it's almost an admission in a4 in a 'ay on another le&el of4 of ... of saying that they got the best of me4 you @no'. T+!7 =mm4 mmm4 mmm. C+/7 :nd % really don' 'ant ... T+/7 =mm. C++7 "ou @no'4 % really don't 'ant anybody historically to get4 ha&e ... to ha&e gotten the best of me ... but they did. They did. They beat the hell out of me. T++7 "ou don't 'ant to say4 >% really 'as defeated at times>4 and yet that's the truth. C+*7 =mm. %t is. ,Sighs.- ,#ause.- "ou @no'4 being ... ha&ing it being all right to be defeated and be beaten and % don't @no' if there's any &alue in4 you @no' ... maybe to myself ... admitting it to myself4 or 'hate&er4 you @no'4 but you @no'4 % ... %'m really finding out % got a lot of ,laughs-4 hangups in terms of4 in that line that % hadn't thought of before4 you @no' ... in terms of4 you @no'4 because % don't 'ant to be beaten. ,T7 =mm.- But % 'as4 you @no'. T+*7 =mm. C+)7 Because % thin@ 'hen you are hurt4 that's being beaten e?cept4 you @no' ... T+)7 =mm4 mmm. C+.7 :nd % allo'ed myself to4 and % don't regret caring4 and % don't regret lo&ing or 'hate&er4 but you @no' ... li@e %'m a ... %'m a @id4 you @no'4 %'m a @id in a 'ay. % li@e to be lo&ed tooO % li@e to be uh ... ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- ... some reciprocity. :nd %'m going to start4 % thin@4 e?pecting that. "ou @no' ... 'ithout being cold or anything li@e that. ,T7 =mm.- But % ha&e to4 you @no'4 start getting something bac@ in return. T+.7 "ou 'ant lo&e to be mutual. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 91
C+27 $or sure4 for sure. ,T7 =mm4hmm.- :nd % don't 'ant to ha&e4 uh get in the situation li@e %'m in no'4 you @no'4 'here %'m afraid to4 to4 to4 sho' anybody that % am4 %'m hurt4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4mmm.- Scared to death ... terrified. T+27 Something really a'ful about sho'ing ... letting anyone @no' that >%'m hurt>. ,C7 "eah.- >%'m hurting>. C+(7 Sure4 sure. %t's4 you @no' ... it has something to do 'ith being a man and it has something to do 'ith ... 'ith the race thing4 you @no'. T+(7 =mm. C*37 %t has something to do 'ith the relationship ... T*37 =mm. C* 7 =aybe the failure of a relationship4 uh. : ... a lot of things4 you @no' ... a father not being in the home 'ith his children. T* 7 =mm. C*!7 ,#ause.- "ou @no'4 % really feel li@e being a &ictim. T*!7 =mm. C*/7 , 2 seconds pause. Smiles4 ta@es a drin@ of 'ater.- % don't @no' ho' to get that up at all. ,Small laugh.- E&ery time % get close to that4 % ta@e a drin@ of 'aterT ,Laughs.,T7 Laughs.- Gh4 % don't @no' if that acts to @eep it do'n there or 'hat. T*/7 =aybe ... maybe4 maybe that'll @eep it from coming up abo&e this le&el ,gestures-. C*+7 $or sure. %4 % don't @no'. See4 ho' it4 it really isn't 'hat % 'ant either. "ou @no'4 % 'ant it to get out and stay out4 you @no'. T*+7 >% 'ould li@e to let it out>. C**7 "eah. So maybe if you ha&e any ,sigh- e?orcism type po'ers or 'hate&er4 ,T7 slight laugh.- that4 uh ... maybe you can Eust do that and then %'ll be free of that4 you @no'. Because that's 'hat it feels li@e ... it feels li@e there's something there4 you @no'4 that % really ... and %'&e identified it. % thin@ %'&e identified it4 you @no'4 because % @no' there're some times 'hen there5s such a big lump in my throat4 you @no'4 and that % e?plain4 % gi&e myself a lot of reasons 'hy % shouldn't be feeling li@e that4 you @no'. T**7 : big lump of hurt4 though. ,C7 =mmm.- , * second pause.- :nd ho' to let that hurt come out in the open ... ho' to let it ... emerge and be out here instead of 'ay do'n Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 92
loc@ed in here. C*)7 Right. ,Small laugh.- "eah. "ou @no'4 %4 %4 % ne&er belie&e in coo@boo@ ans'ers to anything4 e&en 'hen % coo@ % don't use a coo@boo@. % Eust don't belie&e in it. % thin@4 but %'d really li@e to be able for somebody to tell me ,T7 =mm- to4 you @no'4 maybe ho' to do that in about fi&e minutes ,T7 =mm- and be through 'ith it so % can li&e the rest of my life in peace. ,T7 laughs.- "ou @no' 'hat % meanB T*)7 ,Laughs.- Sure. %t'd be a'fully nice if somebody could say4 ><o'4 if you do this and this4 all your hurt 'ill come out and it 'ill be gone fore&er>. C*.7 $or sure. T*.7 Be great4 'ouldn't itB C*27 $or sure. ,Laughs.- % ha&e a suspicion that maybe you @no' some things that % don't @no'. ,Laughs.T*27 ,Laughs.- <o. C*(7 =mm. T*(7 <o4 %'m not holding out on you. C)37 Fey4 %4 % belie&e that. %4 % ... it feels li@e %'m holding out on myself ... ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no'. But hell4 you @no'. % don't @no'. T)37 % thin@ it goes bac@ to some of the things you mentioned. : man doesn't admit he's hurt ... a blac@ man especially doesn't admit that he's been hurt by anything. ,C7 Sure.- Gh4 a father doesn't admit he's been hurt by being a'ay from his children. Must too many things that say7 no4 no4 no ... don't let it out. ,#ause.- But inside there's the hurt. C) 7 "eah. T) 7 : phrase came to me a minute ago that4 K%f you could let that out4 ...L % don't @no' 'hether this 'ill ring true to you or not ... K%f you could let that out4 it 'ould be the Voice of a Victim.L % don't @no' if that ma@es any sense or not. C)!7 =mm4 yeah. :nd % don't @no' 'hat4 you @no'4 % don't @no' if % ha&e any control o&er that4 ,T7 =mm.- you @no'4 of 'hat4 of 'hat ... of 'hat 'ould happen4 you @no'. %t's li@e a friend of mine the other day4 'ho helped me through my illness and e&erything4 he says4 you @no'4 'hen %'&e encountered another person that4 you @no'4 a &ery intelligent sort that 'as tal@ing a bunch of intellectual garbage about feelings and things li@e that ... that % really 'a ... 'anted to Eust4 to4 you @no'4 % really sa' the ... him ... the society4 the culture4 right in him4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 93
mmm.- :nd % really 'anted to Eust ... to @ind of dec@ him4 you @no'4 and that's something that's not uh my nature 'hate&er4 but % could Eust really 'onder that ... T)!7 =mm4 Eust li@e to ha&e soc@ed him. C)/7 "eah4 yeah. :nd my friend said4 you @no'4 >one of these days>4 he says4 if you ... >if you don't get it together> or4 or something4 he says ... not >that if you don't get it together>4 but he says4 >one of these days you're gonna really lose it4 you @no'>. "ou @no' 'hat % meanB %t ... it's that % 'ant to get rid of all that stuff that 'as done to me and not ha&e to hear all that other stuff4 ,T7 =mm.- or to be able to deal 'ith it in a &ery ,T7 =mm- constructi&e @ind of a 'ay4 you @no'. But still it grinds me because of all the other stuff that's happened to me. ,T7 =mm.- :nd 'hen % see other people doing it to other people4 or 'hate&er4 it grinds me ... it ma@es me angry4 you @no'B :nd % 'ould thin@ that in those situations4 %'&e begun to @ind of stri@e out4 you @no'4 or li@e you @no'4 protecting somebody else or fighting for somebody else or 'hate&er4 and li@e %'m not sure 'hat % did for myself4 though4 o&er those years that all that happened to me or 'hate&er. ,#ause.- :nnnd4 if % could cry and ha&e it be all right... T)/7 That's 'hat % 'as thin@ing. ,C7 That 'ould be ...- % 'as Eust thin@ing4 if you could only cry. C)+7 "eah. %t 'ould4 you @no'4 but that's4 that's a trip4 you @no' ... that's a trip li@e uh... T)+7 $irst place4 a man doesn't cry. C)*7 "eah. $or sure4 for sure. That's a fact. T)*7 But % guess you're saying that times you ha&e that lump in your throat and you sure as hell feel li@e crying. C))7 $or sure4 for sure. ,#ause.- Ghh4 % don't @no'. ,Sighs.- % don't @no'. =aybe going to a mo&ie or one of those old4 you @no'4 ,sighs- mo&ies4 dramas4 or something li@e that ... T))7 Tear Eer@ersB C).7 Right ... so % can cry4 you @no'4 and ha&e an e?cuse to cry4 you @no'4 but crying for myself4 %'m not sure that4 uh ... %'m Eust not sure that's going to be constructi&e4 you @no' ,laughs-. T).7 =mm4 you say you're not sure 'hether crying for yourself is constructi&e. % feel also you're afraid of crying for yourself. C)27 % may be4 % may be4 because if % feel li@e crying and % don't4 'hene&er there's some Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 94
things that are4 you @no' ... but you see4 that's a part of it too4 you @no'B %t's ... you @no'4 and %4 and % can't ... %4 % hate to @eep using these things of4 you @no'4 'e're Eust being so conditioned not to4 you @no'4 from a little thing of4 you @no'4 li@e oh4 you @no'4 >be little4 little men or big boys>4 or 'hate&er. >1on't cry>4 and4 and ... T)27 #robably your se&en;year;old could cry. C)(7 "eah4 for sure. % cried4 % remember crying4 but % cried alone. % ne&er let anybody see me cry4 you @no'B % 'onder ho' many people ha&e seen me cryT ,Laughs.- ,T7 Laughs.- T'o or three in the 'hole 'orld. %t's @ind of interesting4 you @no'. % remember li&ing 'ith my e?;'ife4 or 'hate&er4 she cried all the time. She cried get; ting up in the morning4 and you @no'4 Eust crying for crying4 you @no'. % as@ed her sometimes about 'hy she cried4 and she Eust said4 >% don't @no'4 Eust 'anted to4 felt good>. % don't @no' if that 'as healthy or 'hate&er4 but it probably is a lot more healthier than 'hat % did. T)(7 =mm. %t probably is better than ne&er letting anyone see you cry. C.37 Right. There's Eust so many other 'ays to do it4 you @no'4 that %'&e learned4 you @no'4 li@e 'or@ing hard. ,T7 =mm.- <ot thin@ing about it4 ,T7 =mmyou @no'. <ot thin@ing about it. T.37 Must seeing that all the sorro' that you feel for yourself and for 'hat's happened to you and all that4 uh4 >that doesn't really e?ist>. %t's Eust uh4 you're too busy to ha&e any thoughts of that. C. 7 $or sure. T. 7 But the sorro' is still there. C.!7 $or sure. "eah. :nd % really don't @no' ho' to de ... and % really don't @no' ho' to deal 'ith that. % really don't. % really don't. ,Sighs.- "ou @no'4 Eust really gi&ing so much of yourself and it's really craDy. Too much. ,Sighs-. T.!7 %f you did cry4 'hat 'ould some of the themes of that crying beB C./7 Aell4 Eust you @no'4 all those4 you @no'4 hours that %4 you @no'4 that % spent a'ay from my family and that % ga&e up my family and didn't see my children gro'4 you @no'. % really 'anted that to be for some @ind of a higher le&el4 some @ind of a cause4 you @no'. But not to ha&e that uh4 to see anything4 any benefit that % did. "ou @no'4 all of that 'or@4 % mean4 hours and hours and ... but it's Eust incredible4 and % thin@ that 'ould be one4 you @no'4 % 'as saying4 >1amn it4 'hy in the hell did % spend so much timeB> ,T7 =mm.- >Ahy did % spend so much timeB>. "ou @no'4 the leu@emia4 the ... e&erything that happened to me or 'hate&er 'ould be properly deser&ed if one person's life 'ould ha&e been changed4 or something4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm.- :nd li@e4 and maybe4 maybe it has or 'hate&er4 but4 but % thin@ that %4 % Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 95
don't trust that ... that it 'as 'orth it4 you seeB T./ =mm. "eah. "ou in&ested a 'hole lot of caring4 a 'hole lot of your self4 and you feel real sorro' that maybe nothing came of that. C.+ "eah4 and %'d also li@e to uh Eust @ind of cry for my father;in;la' too4 'ho 'as @illed before % ... ,T7 =mm4mmm4 mmm4 mmm.- about si? months before % got the leu@emia. ,T7 =mm- %'d li@e to really tell him that % uh4 that % really lo&ed him a great deal. T.+7 =mm ... So you're telling me in place of telling him and maybe you could e&en spea@ to him4 % don't @no'. But at any rate4 you really 'ould li@e to tell him4 >% lo&ed you4 you @no' thatB % lo&ed you>. C.*7 Aell4 %4 % really 'ould4 you @no'. Th;thisss situation that 'e started out ... % 'as married4 and 'e married somebody of a different race4 and 'e fought it out tooth and nail or 'hate&er4 and but4 but yet 'e lo&ed each other and 'e fished together and he 'as great 'ith me. "ou @no'4 he had a &ery ... to other people4 a &ery cold 'ay4 you @no'4 of4 you @no'4 >By God4 this is the 'ay it's going to be> and so forth. But % sa' him 'hen he 'as hurt too4 and um 'hen he 'as @illed in4 in (.*4 in a4 in a hunting accident4 it Eust really too@ all of it4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- Because you see4 he helped me to4 to try to get out of that stuff. Fe's saying4 >Fey4 'hat are you doing4 you @no'B 1o ... 'hat do you really 'ant to doB>. :nd at the time % 'anted to4 you @no'4 to open my o'n restaurant or 'hate&er. ,T7 =mm.- :nd so he 'as going to help me finance that restaurant4 you @no'. :nd so a 'ee@ later he 'as @illed. 9ne 'ee@. :nd um4 and so 'e 'ere getting so close4 but that % really ne&er told him that4 >Fey 1ad4 you @no'4 hey 1ad4 % lo&e you4 % really lo&e you>. :nd 'e told each other4 % guess4 in some 'ays or 'hate&er4 but it's not the same as saying it4 you @no'4 as saying4 >1ad4 % really lo&e you. % really care>. T.*7 "ou feel really sad that you ne&er ga&e him a straight message on that4 that >% lo&e you>. C.)7 $or sure4 for sure4 because he 'as straighter th ... 'ith me than a lot of people4 you @no'. T.)7 =mm. C..7 :nd to no' to be ta@en a'ay from all of that4 you see4 because it's only been4 % don't @no'4 eight months or so since % ceased all communication 'ith my family4 you @no'4 family that ... my 'ife's family that %'&e lo&ed and %'&e cared for and that % buried my father;in;la' and that 'as it. That 'as the ... and then e&en the family began to ta@e on those same things of the culture4 you @no'. T..7 Things began to fall apart for you there4 mmm4 mmm.
C.27 $or sure4 for sure4 you @no'. :nd lately4 % don't @no'4 falling apart or at least my being able to see that uh that it really 'asn't4 it 'asn't true. ,T7 % see.- %t 'asn't real4 % 'asn't getting4 % 'asn't getting anything bac@4 % 'asn't getting any nourishment bac@4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4 mmm4 mmm- Smiles and polite @isses and things li@e that4 you @no'. That is4 you @no'4 part of the hurt4 you @no'. %'d rather for somebody to say4 you @no'4 >% thin@ you're a lousy S.9.B. or 'hate&er>4 as opposed to saying4 >Fello4 dear4 ho' are youB> "ou @no'4 you @no'B. T.27 =mm4 mmm4 mmm. Ahen the real message perhaps is4 >% thin@ you're a lousy S.9.B.>. C.(7 Right4 right4 you @no'. T.(7 =mm. C237 ,!* second pause-. "eah4 so there's4 you @no'4 there's a fe' things. T237 #art of the sorro' 'ould be for your father;in;la'. "ou'd really 'eep for him. C2 7 % ... yeah4 % thin@ % 'ould4 you @no'. :nd Eust maybe % still thin@ that % really 'ish that % could4 you @no'4 Eust say4 >Fey4 you @no'4 you guys4 you really don't realiDe 'hat you did to me>4 you @no'B Because for a 'hile4 % Eust4 you @no'4 saying4 'ell4 you @no'4 >racist>4 >terrible>4 >blah4 blah4 blah>. But that doesn't say anything4 you @no'4 because it doesn't say ho' % really feel4 you @no'. ,T7 % see.- But they4 but it4 but it ... they 'ouldn't understand that4 they 'ouldn't understand ho' a blac@ person could be hurt4 you @no'4 because if you don't accept a person as human4 ho' can you4 ho' can you thin@ about4 you @no'4 li@e ... it's li@e thin@ing a dog could be hurt of 'hate&er4 you @no'4 people that don't ha&e dogs and don't understand them4 you @no'B T2 7 But you get some satisfaction out of saying4 >"ou people don't realiDe ho' much you hurt me>. They might not be able to hear that message4 but you'd get some satisfaction out of ... out of e?pressing that4 out of ... out of letting4 letting yourself @no'4 letting others @no' that4 >God4 %'&e been hurtT> C2!7 "eah. T2!7 >%'&e been 'ounded>. C2/7 % Eust don't thin@ % could do that 'cause % Eust don't thin@ that that that4 % Eust don't trust4 you @no'4 you @no'4 % 'ouldn't do it because % Eust 'ouldn't 'ant to gi&e them the satisfaction4 you @no'. %t's li@e % feel li@e4 you @no'4 my saying4 you @no'4 >=aybe that is my feeling>. But %4 % ha&e too many times4 you @no'4 'hen you @no'4 % opened up a little bit or 'hate&er4 and someone says ... ,T7 =mm.- ... you @no'4 sCuashT
T2/7 So there are probably loads of people you 'ouldn't dare open up to on that4 but % guess you're opening up to me to say4 >"es4 but % ha&e been really 'ounded4 badly4 by a lot of people>. C2+7 $or sure. =mm. % maybe thin@ that you can understand that a little bit in terms of about hurt and that4 you @no'4 that ... you @no'4 that %4 you @no'4 that %'m a person and uh4 ,pause- you @no'4 %'m a person. :nd % don't really 'ant that denied to me ... ,T7 =mm.- you @no'4 e&er again. T2+7 =mm4 mmm. C2*7 "ou @no'. % could really get angry. T2*7 =mm. mmm. C2)7 % don't you @no'4 % Eust ... that's not going to happen to me4 you @no'. %n a 'ay4 you @no'4 % don't 'ant to lo&e anybody li@e % did my father;in;la' again4 and for God's sa@e4 you @no'4 that's4 that's painful4 but % @no' that's terribly sic@ too4 that you ha&e to lo&e4 you ha&e to continue to lo&e people. 9r 'hate&er. But at that time4 it 'as the only thing that 'as producti&e. %t 'as the only thing that 'as something that 'as4 you @no'4 as $romm tal@s about4 biophilic. %t 'as gro'thO it 'as nourishing. :nd that 'as the only thing4 and that 'as Eust ta@en a'ay from me4 and it 'as ta@en a'ay from me Eust ... T2)7 Must li@e that. C2.7 "ou @no'4 %t 'as Eust really strange4 you @no'. T2.7 So that4 that's been a ... a hurt and a shoc@ and ma@es you feel4 >% can't ris@ myself lo&ing somebody else li@e that because that might disappear some 'ay or other>. C227 $or sure4 for sure. $or sure. % certainly don't 'ant any more in;la's. ,Laughs-. Be they uh 'hate&er color. %'m not sure % 'ant them4 but no' you @no' ... :nd that's ... % thin@ that's part of it4 you @no'. =ore so than4 than the ris@ing lo&ing somebody4 Eust because their death ... death % @no' is ine&itable. But it's that4 that other collection of things around it4 or 'hate&er. But you @no'4 it's... it5s craDy. T227 %t's 'hatB C2(7 %t's craDy to lo&e4 you @no'4 it's Eust li@e lo&ing a pet roc@ or something4 you @no'4 it's nothing. <othing4 you don't feel. T2(7 =mm. mmm. >Lo&e goes out from me but nothing comes bac@>. C(37 Right. :nd %'m not so sure that that4 that % 'ant that4 it to 'or@ li@e that again4 you @no'. :nd maybe by ... maybe saying that4 % don't @no'4 maybe you @no'4 calling4 Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 98
say4 >Fey4 % really 'as hurt> and e&erything li@e that or 'hate&er. =aybe that 'ould be a start or 'hate&er4 but % Eust don't really trust that they really understand that. ,T7 =mm- % don't really4 really uh ... it too@ my 'ife 'ho li&ed 'ith me for se&en years4 you @no'4 after % left4 maybe si?4 se&en months to understand that % 'as4 that % 'as hurt4 that % 'as ... that % 'as desperate. T(37 "ou feel there's so little chance of anyone else really understanding you. C( 7 =mm4 that sounds @ind of4 yeah4 'ell4 ,small laugh-4 so little chance for that group of people understanding me. ,T7 90.- :nd % belie&e it. % really belie&e it4 you @no'. %t 'ould Eust4 it 'ould be li@e me trying to4 uh4 to understand or to4 to tell 1ic@ <i?on or something about my feelings4 that % Eust don't thin@ he could relate to that4you @no'. ,T7 =mm.- :nd %'m using4 and ... and %'m really serious about that e?ample4 because he's so far a'ay from me and my reality4 and that family4 you @no'4 % found out 'as so far a'ay from me and my reality that4 you @no'4 it 'as insane4 you @no'. %t 'as really insane4 you @no'. So % thin@ on one le&el % feel 90 for lo&ing them. T( 7 "ou feel...B C(!7 90 for lo&ing them. T(!7 % see4 mmm4 mmm. C(/7 But % don't feel 90 for sharing any more 'ith them. ,T7 =mm.- :nd sharing that hurt is Eust4 ,T7 =mmyou @no' ... and maybe sharing it 'ith other people 'ould be 90. But % @no' %'m mo&ing a'ay from the other too4 you @no'4 that's really important to me right no'. :nd % don't @no' ... maybe % 'on't ... %'m not rushing it4 it Eust seems to 'ant to get out and Eump out or 'hate&er4 but4 you @no'4 you @no'. %t's clearly must ha&e really gone through ... my body really must ha&e gone through some changes or 'hate&er because4 you @no'4 something there is Eust @eeping it4 @eeping it do'n4 and % @no' all those reasons but % can't uh4 % can't seem to muster that po'er to ... ,T7 =mm.- ... to get it4 to get that out4 you @no'4 to really4 you @no'. T(/7 %t's still too much loc@ed in. C(+7 "eah4 for sure. But it really4 it really helps4 you @no'4 um4 'cause it's4 it's4 it's Eust4 you @no' ... it's incredible4 you @no'4 this is the first time %'&e tal@ed to anybody that4 you @no'4 that % ha&en't really been in control. To some e?tent %'&e really gi&en up a lot of control uh ... to you. T(+7 =mm4 mmm4 sort of letting things loose rather than ... ,C7 $or sure.- ... @eeping them under your control. C(*7 $or sure. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 99
T(*7 :nd that's a ne' e?perience. C()7 : &ery ne' e?perience for me. Very ne' e?perience. :nd maybe % don't @no' if it's Eust not4 Eust it's a function4 function of that too4 you @no'4 or something4 you @no'. Things are rattling around in my head no' ,laughs-4 you @no'. But all the other4 it's Eust bullshit4 and li@e % ha&e been hurt and % really don't 'ant to get in&ol&ed anymore in terms of 'ith people that can't return lo&e and can't accept people. % Eust don't really 'ant to get in&ol&ed anymore. %'m sic@ and tired ... sic@ of it. T()7 Sounds as though you're more accepting of yourself as a person 'ho is &ulnerable4 'ho has been hurt4 'ho is hurting4 and 'ho 'ants lo&e ... 'ho doesn't 'ant it all to be a one;'ay street of gi&ing lo&e. "ou 'ant lo&e bac@ in return. C(.7 =mm4 mmm. "eah. :nd % 'anna be able to uh4 to feel and to4 and to cry. ,T7 =mm.- :nd not to be afraid of crying4 and4 and not to be afraid of4 uh ... % 'ant to be able and %'m going to 'or@ for that. % really 'anna 'or@ for that. %4 % @no' % do4 you @no'4 % Eust ha&e this thing4 ah4 you @no'. %f % trust the doctors4 %'d ha&e them cut 'em4 cut me open and get that out4 you @no'4 but % don't. ,Laughing.T(.7 ,Laughs.- =mm. #robably'd be simpler to ha&e an operation.
C(27 9h yeahT ,Sighs-. "eah4 yeah4 yeah. But %4 but do you4 do you4 do you4 do you4 do you feel that ... you @no'4 li@e % really 'anna4 you @no'4 tell you ho' hurt % am4 but %'m not4 % can't tell youB T(27 % understand that. % ... you're4 you're uh4 it &isualiDes in my mind you're 'al@ing all around the edge of that pit4 but you're not really letting yourself do'n into itO so you're letting me @no' all about it ,clears throat-4 but4 but not it. C((7 "eah. $or sure. "eah. 1on't @no' ho' to do that. ,T7 =mm.- "ou @no'B T((7 "eah. %4 % hear you saying4 >% really 'ant to get to that4 but it 'ill ha&e to be at my pace. % can't ... % can't force it. % can't... but % do 'ant to get to it>. C 337 "eah. 'Cause % 'ant to get to it really fast4 you @no'4 because that's all a part of me right no' that's really ... % really feel that's sic@4 that's really the cancer4 ,T7 =mmyou @no'. That if % could eliminate that4 % could eliminate all the cancer from my body. ,T7 =mm.- % really belie&e it4 you @no'. :nd % really blame4 % really blame the 'ay % li&ed and the stress and e&erything else li@e that on4 on on the disease. % really do. T 337 "ou mean4 you blame the disease on all that stress4 is 'hat you meanB C 3 7 Right4 for sure4 yeah. % ha&e it turned around. $or sure. % do. % do. :nd to some Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 100
e?tent4 % blame racism. ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- "ou @no'4 % Eust don't 'ant to get caught up into that anymore4 you @no'4 and % 'ant to continue to gi&e4 but % don't4 %4 %4 %'m Eust not going to do it the 'ay % did it before. :nd uh4 % don't @no'. =ay ... yelling sometimes you @no'4 li@e 'hen % came in here4 % 'as thin@ing about yelling4 you @no'4 one of those long4 big long ... you @no'. But %'m not sure that % 'ant to do that. ,Smiles.T 3 7 "ou could try it. C 3!7 ,Laughs.- "ou @no'4 % don't @no'4 you @no' ,Laughs.- That 'ouldn't be cultured. T 3!7 ,Laughs.- Standards4 standards4 standards. C 3/7 Sure4 % mean4 %'m really4 % 'as really socialiDed. T 3/7 "ou 'ere brought up right ... 'eren't youB C 3+7 9h yeah4 % 'as. % learned all of it ... all of it. T 3+7 :nd still in spite of yourself4 buy a good deal of it. C 3*7 "eah. "eah. T 3*7 "ou really don't 'ant to4 but still you find ... ,C7 "eah.- ... you can't do the uncultu; red thing. C 3)7 $or sure. There 'ere standards4 % guess4 and uh4 that are really foreign to me4 but uh4 you @no'4 the4 the thing that4 you @no' ... that % thought about you @no'4 and li@e you @no'4 % 'as li@e in terms of e?pressing my anger4 'hate&er4 comes out in terms of4 you @no' ,sighs-4 possible obscenity4 you @no' ,laughs-4 you @no'4 li@e calling somebody a bunch of something or 'hate&er 'ould really4 you @no'4 % don't @no' 'hat it 'ould do4 but you @no'4 %'d really li@e to do that4 you @no'. T 3)7 That helps to e?plain 'hy % feel you'&e @ept your language more4 Cuite guarded here. %4 %4 % realiDe %'&e used more profanity than you ha&e. ,Laughs.C 3.7 ,Laughs.- $or sure4 you @no'. %t's not because of4 you @no'4 but % don't @no'4 it's Eust a4 a part of that4 you @no'4 li@e % 'as Eust ... T 3.7 "ou'd li@e to Eust tell off the bastardT C 327 "eah4 right4 right4 right. $or sure. ,Laughs.- 9h my goodnessT ,Laughs.T 327 "ou can't e&en do that. ,Laughs.C 3(7 ,Sighs.- 9h4 it's incredible. % don't @no'. Ahe'T %'m getting 'arm. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 101
T 3(7 ,Laughs.- Both inside and outside C 37 "es4 right4 right. %'m getting e?tremely 'arm. Gm4 yeah4 maybe %'ll be able to do it one day4 % guess. =aybe %'ll be able to do it ,laughs-. % really ha&en't used ... but see4 'hen % get out of here4 %'ll use a lot of profanity4 you @no'. % don't4 you @no'4 Eust in terms of4 you @no'4 li@e % ... %4 %4 %4 % thin@ % did4 you @no'4 'hen % 'as really angry tal@ing to my 'ife and things li@e that4 you @no'4 'here % 'as Eust4 >Goddammit>4 and all of that4 you @no'4 >bastards> and some other things and li@e4 you @no'4 % 'as raised properly4 you @no' ,laughs.-. Gh4 yeah4 but % thin@ part of that 'ould be a part of e?pressing my ,T7 =mm- feelings and e&erything li@e that4 you @no'. T 37 %t 'ouldn't come out in nice4 polite language. C 7 <o4 it 'ouldn't. %t4 it really 'ouldn't. %t really 'ouldn't. To my teachers that % had4 to the family that % had4 uh4 to a lot of my colleagues4 you @no'4 and others. :nd ... but % don't @no' if % really 'ant to tell them4 you @no'4 maybe it's Eust a part of Eust being proud and4 and e&erything else li@e that4 but at least to myself %4 % need to get it out and openly. 7 "eah. "ou may not tell it to them face to face4 but you need to get it out of yourself someho'.
C !7 =mm. Someho'4 yeah4 yeah. Really rotten and % really feel s ... you @no'4 really scre'ed. % really feel ... ,T7 =mm.- ... so badly. T !7 >The bastards really scre'ed me>. C /7 "eah4 % @no'. They ... they got me4 you @no'. %t 'as Eust li@e uh4 being part4 % guess4 that had something to do 'ith being in4 you @no'4 % guess4 you @no'4 % Eust ... % Eust 'ipe 'em out4 you @no'4 if you don't get them 'ith their bodies you do it in their mind4 you @no'4 li@e it happened4 you @no'4 and it 'as ... it 'as real4 you @no'4 and you @no'4 to try to describe that hell to somebody is Eust the4 the hardest thing4 you @no'. But it's li@e4 you @no'4 Eust somebody @noc@ing you do'n ... ,T7 =mm.- ... and it's somebody coming and stomping on you and spitting on you and e&erything li@e that4 and li@e it's Eust4 you @no'4 and Eust being at ... feeling li@e garbage. T /7 =mm4 mmm. C +7 :nd % ha&e the feeling that people ha&e made me feel li@e garbage4 you @no'4 and li@e ... you @no'B %'m sure that my friends 'ould say4 you @no'4 God4 % had e&erything. But % didn't ha&e e&erything. % didn't ha&e e&erything. Certainly didn't ha&e that respect as a person.
T +7 But there 'ere a lot of people 'ho4 though they may or may not ha&e beaten you physically4 treated you in a 'ay that Eust trampled on you and beat you up and spit on you and made you a nobody4 a piece of garbage. C *7 Right. :nd it 'on't happen again. <ot if % can help it ,small laugh-. T *7 =mm. C )7 %t's 'cause %'m really tired of fighting. ,T7 =mm.- Really tired of e?pending that @ind of energy. ,T7 =mm.- %t really is Eust4 is straining4 it's too draining4 and li@e4 you @no'4 % don't really @no' 'hat's gonna happen in terms of4 you @no'4 ho' %'m going to do that4 you @no'. Get it out or ,sighs- or 'hate&er4 but you @no'4 % Eust don't really 'ant to say that %'m hurt or 'hate&er4 because that is ... that isn't e&en descripti&e ,small laugh- enough for 'hat really happened. T )7 "eah. To say a 'ord li@e that or se&eral of the 'ords you'&e used Eust isn't at all the same as feeling those feelings inside and really feeling them fully. C .7 %t really is4 uh4 % don't @no' if you sa' >The E?corcist>4 but it really is4 really is4 you @no'4 that oohf4 you @no'4 % remember a scene in that mo&ie 'here the girl 'ho thre' up this green slime4 you @no'4 and that's really4 it's that4 you @no'4 it's that bad4 you @no'4 it's4 you @no'4 it's that4 it's that bad. 'Cause % @no' it ... % @no' it no'4 you @no'. %t's not a part of me and my body really 'ants to reEect that4 but ho' to4 ho' to thro' that up is ... T .7 "eah4 ho' to ... ho' to &omit up that green slime that's been a part of your e?perience. C 27 "eah. =aybe %'m Eust afraid %'ll loo@ horrible4 you @no'4 or4 or that %'d loo@ horrible4 or 'hate&er4 e?pressing that @ind of anger4 that @ind of uh4 that @ind of hurt or 'hate&er. T 27 "ou 'ouldn't loo@ ci&iliDedO you 'ouldn't loo@ cultured. C (7 ,Laughs.- % don't4 % don't @no'4 you @no'. ,Sighs.- % don't really @no'. But right no'4 the ... more than getting that out4 % thin@ the4 uh4 the o&erriding thing is that % 'anna @eep at least that control4 to control that4 for fear of4 you see4 % don't really 'ant to get sic@ again ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- "ou @no'4 and li@e % thin@ this4 the slightest4 you @no'4 Eust by being 'ea@4 by submitting to that @ind of pain4 um4 someho' bring bac@ my uh ... T (7 "ou 'onder about that ... 'hether if you4 if you let out all the ... all the hell that you'&e e?perienced inside4 it might uh4 it might bring bac@ your illness. C !37 :nd that doesn't sound logical4 does itB ,Laughs.- % @no' that. ,T7 Smiles.-
T !37 9.0. ,Laughs.C ! 7 Than@ you4 than@ you &ery much. ,Sighs.- 9h4 God. Ahat a ... mmm. ,!3 second pause-. % don't @no'. God4 you @no'4 % feel so beaten. % ... 'hen % feel beaten right no'4 and %'m not sure 'hy4 but that in a 'ay the4 that % got4 uh ... % really got something to say and it Eust4 you @no'4 and % @no' %'d feel better. But maybe % '; ouldn't4 you @no'4 % really tal@ ... God4 % realiDe ho' %'m tal@ing in circles. % seem to be tal@ing in circles. 1oes it sound li@e uhB T ! 7 <o4 not Cuite. %t's more spirals4 % thin@. ,C7 Laughs.- Getting4 as you say4 getting &ery close4 you feel4 you feel beaten right no' as though4 if only something could come out4 you 'ouldn't feel beaten. C !!7 ,#ause- "eah ,sighs- Thin@ that you @no'4 Eust ... that turned4 that almost turned me into something really inhuman. T !!7 =mm. C !/7 % really almost let it turn me into something really inhuman. T !/7 %t damn near made an animal out of you. C !+7 1amn near4 damn near4 yeah. So you see4 if uh4 % don't 'ant that to happen anymore. :t all. <ot gonna do it to me again ,laughs-. T !+7 <o. That's &ery clear. C !*7 <o. % @no' that doesn't help the other problem4 but at least % @no' that ,laughs-4 and % really do @no' that4 you @no'. ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- Because % don't thin@ anybody has a right to do that to anybody. <obody ... teacher4 'ife4 husband4 'hate&er. Gh uh4 and it4 and it really 'asn't my fault either and uh4 and li@e %'m not the blameless ... % mean4 %'m not 'ithout any blame or 'hate&er4 but you @no'4 you @no' ... Eust li@e somebody too@ a big goddamned tree and Eust rammed it up ... ooh4 so4 you @no'B ,Sighs.- Fard to describe4 you @no'4 you @no'B T !*7 Too@ a great big stic@ and rammed it up your ass ... %s that 'hat you're sayingB C !)7 ,Laughs.- %4 % didn't say that. T !)7 %s that 'hat you meantB C !.7 That's 'hat % meant. T !.7 90. That's 'hat % 'ant to @no'4 'hether % 'as catching your meaning correctly. C !27 "eah4 for sure. "ou @no'4 and you @no' that that probably 'ould be painful. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 104
,Sighs.T !27 :nd it's that @ind of pain that you'&e suffered. C !(7 "eah. ,#ause-. "ou Eust can't let it ... % Eust4 % Eust can't let it happen again. ,Sighs. 2 second pause.- % um really4 uh4 % Eust really don't @no' ho' to tell you ho' badly %'&e been hurt4 you @no'. % really don't. T !(7 Goes beyond 'ords. C /37 "eah. But % @no'4 you @no'4 it's there4 and maybe % should attend to it a little bit more. But4 goddammit4 you @no'4 Eust ooh... T /37 "ou're feeling some of that hurt no'. C / 7 "eah. % am. % 'as thin@ing a ... about a 'ino on a street that continues to drin@4 doesn't ha&e a place to li&e. "ou @no' %'&e seen so many people go by4 they're the @ind of person4 you @no'4 disgusting4 don't 'ant to 'or@ or 'hate&er. But you @no'4 % really feel li@e there may be some reasons. ,T7 =mm.- :nd % @no' one thing4 %'m gonna allo' that person to be desperate ... ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- Because %'m thin@ing that probably people li@e that do things out of desperation. :nd um4 'cause % @no'4 you @no'B % ne&er really had a drin@ing problem or anything li@e that4 but it's the @ind of sensiti&ity that %'&e gotten from all of that. T / 7 =mm4 mmm. %t seems4 it seems to me that you're uh feeling it ... you @no' 'hat it's li@e to be in desperation and you @no' 'hat it could drag you to4 and so maybe that5s 'hat5s happened to some of them. Something li@e that. C /!7 $or sure. $or sure. :nd % thin@ that % ... % thin@ my4 my heart goes out to people li@e that4 people 'ho can't afford to to do this or 'hate&er4 and ... because see4 % had a lot of money and you @no'4 it all left. :nd uh4 but in a 'ay %'m happier no'4 you @no'. But % really don't @no'4 not sure really 'here to go ne?t4 but % @no' that % don't really 'ant that @ind of life anymore. That % 'anna gi&e4 % 'anna help4 and % 'anna tal@ to people or 'hate&er4 and before % do that4 you @no'4 % 'anna get my thing together4 and a part of that is Eust maybe admitting4 you @no'4 and % guess maybe admitting that %'m hurt and sho'ing and e?pressing my hurt or 'hate&er 'ill4 'ill reaffirm the fact that %'m a person ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- Because apart from that4 % thin@ sho'ing that is a4 you @no'4 pulling myself up too high4 ,T7 =mm.you @no'4 and that5s 'hat e&erybody4 you @no'4 that's the 'ay e&erything 'as. T /!7 >% don't4 % don't feel it ... % don't hurt4 %'m4 %'m fine>... That5s a lot of bullshit. C //7 $or sure. But at least %'m admitting to you that %'m hurt4 you @no'. T //7 "eah4 that's right4 mmm. :nd Eust for a moment there4 % felt you really 'ere e?periencing that too4 really feeling that stic@ sho&ed up your ass. Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 105
C /+7 9h4 yeah4 you @no'4 'hen %4 you @no'4 'hat is4 you @no' ho' your natural reaction4 you @no'4 'hen you start feeling stuff li@e that4 or at least 'hen % do4 % Eust @ind of4 you @no'4 %'&e got to put it all out of4 out of my mind4 bring it do'n to a different le&el. :nd % thin@ that's 'hat %'m doing4 % @eep doing4 you @no'4 'hen % get to the point. Gotta bring it to a safe le&el. T /+7 "eah. That's right. "ou get that close4 you get that close to the pit and then pull a'ay a little. C /*7 ,#ause.- $or sure. "ou4 you ... is it all right to ha&e e&erybody else to blameB ,Laughs.- ,T7 laughs.- "ou @no'4 for your4 for your problem4 instead of sharing some of that. But % shared4 you @no'4 %4 %4 % thin@ %'&e really4 % shared that4 you @no'. T /*7 % thin@ ... % thin@ 'hat you're saying is4 >% feel as though4 dammit4 e&erybody else is to blame. =y mind says4 9h4 no4 you ha&e4 you probably ha&e a part in it too4 but...> ,C7 Sure. Sure.- ...your feelings are ... C /)7 "eah4 yeah. :nd % guess % hurt myself. % didn't4 other people ... maybe if % can clarify that ... % let myself be hurt. ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- "ou @no'4 because % Eust ga&e too much4 you @no'. T /)7 =mm. =ade yourself &ulnerable sometimes. C /.7 Really. :nd not sometimes ... most of the times. T /.7 =ost of the times. C /27 "ou @no'4 by being4 you @no'4 Eust by being4 by sharing4 by being there4 by gi&ing4 you @no'4 and really lo&ing. Because % do ha&e that sense of a total4 you @no'4 that Eust4 % 'anna lo&e4 that's my nature. T /27 =mm4 mmm. C /(7 But you @no'4 %4 %'&e really ne&er been this beaten. % ne&er ... you @no'4 ne&er ha&e. T /(7 % 'ant to be clear about your meaning. "ou'&e ne&er felt so much of being beaten as you do right no'B %s that 'hat you're sayingB C +37 Aell4 through this 'hole thing4 you @no'. T +37 "eah. C + 7 Must beaten4 you @no'4 Eust really beaten4 and % thin@ that if % sho' you ho' much Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 !nd %nter&ie'4 page 106
%'&e been beaten or 'hate&er4 you @no'4 li@e %'d probably4 you @no'4 become nothing in this chair4 you @no'4 Eust ... ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- "ou @no'B ,Laughs.T + 7 "ou might practically disappear if you really let me @no' ho' hurt and beaten and a'ful you feel. C +!7 =mm4 for sure. $or sure. "ou @no'4 % could tell you some times % mean that 'ould Eust4 you @no'4 maybe blo' you a'ay4 you @no'. ,T7 =mmm.- ... ,Sighs and appears on the edge of crying during a !3 second pause.- Really too much for me. T +!7 FmmB C +/7 %t's really too much for me. T +/7 Too much. =mm. C ++7 % feel li@e it. T ++7 %4 % thin@ you feel as though4 >%'&e gone about as far as % can go at this point>. C +*7 "eah. =mm4 yeah4 really. ,Laughs.- Ahen % start smiling4 % @no' % am. T +*7 =mm. Ta@ing a drin@ of 'ater. C +)7 $or sure. ,Laughs.- Aell4 you @no'4 but %'m being truthful about it any'ay. T +) =mm4 yeah. "eah4 % feel4 % feel too. Gh4 you'&e 'al@ed around that pit of hurt and pain and beaten;ness4 and you'&e4 you'&e felt some of it and uh4 and perhaps that's as far as you can go right at this moment. C +.7 "eah. T +.7 E&en though you @no' there's more there4 you @no' that you're @eeping some of it do'n. Gm and to @no' those things may be helpful too. C +27 "eah. "ou see4 because %4 % can tal@ about this leu@emia and and all this stuff and e&erything li@e that and ... ,T7 =mm4 mmm.- 'ell4 % guess it's you @no'... T +27 $ascinating. :nd it's easier to tal@ about leu@emia and the possibility of death and all that4 than it is to tal@ about all the hurt and a'fulness that you'&e suffered. C +(7 "eah. ,Sighs.- Ahe'4 oh4 % really4 'he'4 a lot4 you @no' ,sighs-. % ha&e to stop. 90B T +(7 90. :ll right4 mmm. Gone about as far as you can go.
C *37 Right. T *37 =mm. 904 'e'll call it Cuits.
$%<:L C9==E<T B" R9GERS
6Source7 Bo? /.Q+4 Carl Rogers #apers4 =anuscript 1i&ision4 Library of Congress4 Aashington4 1C8 Fere is an armor;plated man. Fe has been sufficiently hurt that he hides his real feelings &ery deeply. But in this relationship4 the armor begins to crac@ ; Eust begins to crac@. Fe says4 >This is the first time %'&e e&er tal@ed to anybody that % ha&en't really been in control>. So in this understanding climate he lets himself creep closer to the e?periencing of his feelings. =y image is that he is 'al@ing all around his o'n pri&ate slough of despond. Ae find the upper layer is anger4 but further do'n in the slime are the unspea@able hurts4 and the feelings of being tramped on4 defeated and humiliated. Fe gets so close to e?periencing some of this4 that his e?pressions become eloCuent non&erbal communication7 >9ooohT> >Ahe'T Ahe'4 oh4 'he'T %'&e got to stop>. % feel that at that moment he puts his foot into this dreaded pit4 but then has to dra' bac@. % don't regret this. % regard it as demonstrating the 'isdom of the client. Fe @no's 'here the 'orst spots are in his e?periencing. Fe @no's 'hat he can tolerate. Fe has to proceed at his o'n pace. :long the 'ay 'e see ho' po'erful metaphor is in the deeper ranges of psychotherapy. =etaphor is so much more e?pressi&e than an intellectual description... The lump in his throat... The ability to spea@ from >up here> and not from >do'n there>... The goddamn tree stuc@ up his ass... The green slime that must be &omited... They all spea@ &i&idly of his feelings4 'ithout naming those feelings. $rom an intellectual and theoretical point of &ie' there are bits that fascinate me. Fis introEected self is his cultured self4 the Cuotes >credit to his race>. %t has little relation to the real feelings in 'hich he could disco&er his real self. :nother bit. Fe reports &ery con&incingly that if he let his feelings all out4 it 'ould ma@e him sic@ again. But hearing those e?act 'ords spo@en acceptantly by me4 ma@es him realiDe it's a ridiculous &ie'. To me that's a fascinating interchange. Fere5s another bit. Ahen % gi&e him full permission to be as angry as he 'ishes4 that stops him completely. Then he can no longer a&oid the fact that it is not his anger that he is afraid of4 but the hurting and &ulnerable part of him. Then there is the mourning 'hich accompanies une?pressed lo&e4 the lo&e for his father;in;la' 'hich he 'as ne&er able to communicate. % thin@ he gained from communicating it to me. $inally4 he ma@es it &ery clear that for him there are many more frightening aspects of his life than the prospect of death. Someho' this seems to contain a message for all of us. :s for me4 % felt &ery present in the relationship4 an understanding companion on this trip of e?ploration 'hich seemed so potentially dangerous to him. % thin@ it is a good e?ample of ho' % 'or@ 'ith an articulate client.
Rogers5 Transcripts4 Volume !4 1ione4 #ost;Session Commentary4 page 109

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Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer Volume !

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C 37 Right. T 37 =mm. 904 'e'll call it Cuits.