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Keywords
Zo|tao Looyo|, socooo |aooao
acoo|s|t|oo, syc|o||oos|t|cs, ooo-
t|oo aoo |oao|o, Lyoao|c Systoos
T|ooy

Zoltan Dornyei

The Psychology of Second

Language Acquisition
SLA

Dynamic Systems
Theory

Where does psycho|ogy

and second |anguage
acquisition research
connect! An interview
with Zo|tn Dornyei
Pobert S. Murpby
Mo|y Sc|oo| o| |oocat|oo
W
hal is IsychoIinguis-
lics` Hov does il
differ from Cogni-
live Linguislics` Why is lhis
generaI area of Iinguislics in lhe
IimeIighl lhese days` Dr. ZoIln
Dornyei is a rofessor al Nol-
lingham Iniversily vho is al
lhe forefronl of lhis research. He
recenlIy vrole a book lilIed, 1nc
Psqcnc|cgq cj Scccn! Icngucgc
Acuisiiicn (Dornyei, 2OO9). In
il, Dornyei discusses lhe never
chaIIenges SLA researchers in
lhis cenlury need lo come lo lerms vilh. He delaiIs research of
lhe CrilicaI Ieriod Hyolhesis, lhe conneclion belveen emo-
lion and Iearning, IndividuaI Differences, lhe imIicil1exIicil
dicholomy, and Dynamic Syslems Theory. This inlerviev
rovides an overviev of such recenl research and serves as an
inlroduclion lo his book.
Rnbcrt Murphy (RM): I |usl hnished reading your fabuIous
nev book, 1nc Psqcnc|cgq cj Scccn! Icngucgc Acuisiiicn. Whal
vas lhe imelus for vriling il`
| |/|CJ/C| |/C|| Co||oo ,a|t-ob||cat|oos.o/t|t>
20
| |oaoos' |ooo
Zn!tn DrnycI (ZD): When I slarled my IhD
sludies in AIied Linguislics in lhe mid-198Os,
I vas Iaced al lhe Dearlmenl of IsychoIogy of
Lolvos Iniversily (udaesl, Hungary) under
lhe guidance of an eminenl sychoIinguisl,
Irofessor Csaba IIh. ConsequenlIy, aII my
subsequenl vork on SLA became inevilabIy
inuenced by sychoIogicaI lheories. Yel even I
vas unreared for lhe aradigmalic earlhquake
lhal shook lhe heId of AIied Linguislics in
lhe nev miIIennium in lerms of lhe sudden
emergence of lhe muIlilude of nev sychoIogi-
caI lechnicaI lerms, measuremenl rocedures
and lheorelicaI orienlalions lhal suddenIy
aeared in every forum. ur heId, vhich used
lo be dominaled by Iinguislic and educalionaI
lheories, has been invaded by sychoIogy in
lhe reface of my book I refer lo lhis invasion
as lhe psqcnc-||iiz|ricg and ve had beller gel
used lo lhis nev silualion because il is unIikeIy
lo change in lhe near fulure. Recenl lechnoIogi-
caI deveIomenls, such as lhe inlroduclion of
various culling-edge brain scanning and imaging
rocedures, have made il ossibIe lo creale direcl
observabIe Iinks belveen our menlaI rocesses
and our Ianguage use. As a resuIl, Iinguislics and
sychoIogy have slarled lo converge under vari-
ous nev academic IabeIs (e.g. sychoIinguislics,
neuroIinguislics, cognilive Iinguislics) vilhin
lhe broad domain of cognilive neuroscience.
Indeed, if you allend inlernalionaI conferences
in lhe heId, you cannol heI nolicing lhal some
of lhe mosl exciling and forvard-oinling
conlemorary research is silualed al lhe inlerface
of Iinguislics and sychoIogy. Therefore, in order
lo be abIe lo remain u-lo-dale, aIied Iinguisls
have lo become famiIiar vilh lhe essence of lhe
sychoIogicaI aroach hence lhe idea and
molivalion for lhis book.
RM: Whal is sychoIinguislics` Hov does il
differ from cognilive Iinguislics`
ZD: The heId of sychoIinguislics look off afler
lhe 1957 ubIicalion of Noam Chomsky's book
Sqnicciic Siruciurcs, and lhe hrsl decade of
sychoIinguislic research vas IargeIy laken u
by deveIoing lheories of Ianguage rocessing
based on Chomsky's generalive grammar. This
scoe vas broadened al lhe end of lhe 196Os by
lhe inuence of informalion rocessing lheory
(lhis vas vhen lhe min!-cs-ccmpuicr melahor
vas inlroduced), and, as menlioned above, lhe
heId furlher exanded in lhe 198Os and 199Os
vilh lhe sread of neuroimaging lechniques.
In many vays, sychoIinguisls and cognilive
Iinguisls have been ursuing simiIar goaIs,
nameIy, lo exound lhe sychoIogicaI reaIily
and lhe cognilive mechanisms underIying
Ianguage slruclure and use. Yel lhe arlicuIar
foci and research melhods of lhe lvo disciIines
differ: Mosl cognilive Iinguisls vouId consider
lhemseIves Iinguisls hrsl vilh an inleresl in
cognilion, vhiIe mosl sychoIinguisls vouId
regard lhemseIves rimariIy as sychoIogisls
vilh an inleresl in Ianguage. AccordingIy, vhiIe
cognilive Iinguislics has adoled lhe slandard
research melhodoIogy of Iinguislics, sychoIin-
guislics has been draving on lhe research
lechniques of exerimenlaI sychoIogy.
RM: Wilh lhis book you have hIIed a ga lhal
seriousIy needed hIIing. Il is a vonderfuI book
for any second Ianguage leacher or researcher.
Who vas your main largel vhen vriling lhis
book`
ZD: I am reaIIy Ieased lhal you Iiked lhe book.
Who vas my largel audience` Quile frankIy,
myseIf. Thal is, I vrole lhe kind of book I vouId
have Iiked lo read if il had exisled. In lhe 198Os,
I slarled oul as a Ianguage leacher and lhen
a leacher lrainer, and aIlhough I have by and
Iarge become a researcher since lhen, I am sliII a
leacher al hearl. Therefore, vhen designing lhis
book I foIIoved my inslincls and assumed lhal
if I found a sychoIogicaI area inleresling and
reIevanl lo SLA, olher coIIeagues mighl aIso hnd
il usefuI for lheir ovn raclice. This is, in facl,
hov I have vrillen mosl of my books in lhe asl.
And aIlhough I do nol relend lhal lhe loics
covered by lhe book are easy, I lried lo make lhe
slyIe as accessibIe as ossibIe. Iurlhermore, lhe
hnaI chaler of lhe book (Chaler 7) secihcaIIy
concerns cIassroom aIicalions.
RM: In your book you discuss a fev olher
names for simiIar and overIaing heIds. Which
nomencIalure vouId you refer lo reresenl lhe
fulure of your heId` Why`
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21
Murpby: / tc.c. .t' Zc't. |c,c
ZD: This is a very good and imorlanl queslion,
and I have secihcaIIy addressed lhis in lhe very
Iasl aragrah: RegrellabIy, |usl as I lhoughl
I had hnaIIy succeeded in arorialing my
sychoIinguislic ersona, lhe lerm 'sychoIin-
guislics' slarled lo fade avay and evoIve inlo a
nev emerging disciIine lhal can be broadIy Ia-
beIIed 'cognilive second Ianguage neuroscience'.
Which, of course, means lhal my quesl for a
rofessionaI idenlily is lo conlinue! I susecl lhal
I am nol aIone in lhis slale of disorienlalion
mosl second Ianguage researchers viII have been
affecled by lhe ongoing academic aradigm
shifl (lermed psqcnc-||iiz|ricg in lhe Ireface).
Ierhas one vay of making a virlue of lhis
highIy uncomforlabIe silualion is lo cIaim lhal 'il
is lhe |ourney lhal mallers, nol lhe gelling lhere'.
And lo concIude on a osilive nole, Iel me cile a
Dulch roverb lhal I have found on lhe Inlernel:
'He vho is oulside his door aIready has lhe hard
arl of his |ourney behind him'. (InforlunaleIy,
severaI Dulch friends and coIIeagues insisl lhal
lhis roverb does nol exisl in Dulch.) (. 3O3)
RM: Whal are lhe currenl chaIIenges of second
Ianguage researchers`
ZD: The mosl imorlanl chaIIenge in our heId is,
in my viev, lhal lhe lyicaI erson dravn lo lhe
heId of second Ianguage inslruclion is oflen nol
lhe kind of erson vho has lhe inleresl1lime1en-
ergy lo dig dee enough inlo sychoIinguislics lo
be abIe lo lake lhe heId forvard in lhis area. There
is, of course, a nev breed of young sychoIin-
guisls seciaIised in biIinguaIism, bul lhey oflen
do nol have any raclicaI cIassroom exerience
or leaching inleresl. To iIIuslrale lhis olenliaI
robIem vilh regard lo my book: AIlhough I
reaIIy beIieve lhal 1nc Psqcnc|cgq cj Scccn! Icn-
gucgc Acuisiiicn conlains essenliaI knovIedge
for lhe nexl generalion of rofessionaIs in our
heId, I have doubls aboul hov many MA and
IhD sludenls viII acluaIIy make lhe considerabIe
inveslmenl lo engage vilh lhis nev aroach.
RM: I have aIvays lhoughl lhal lhe mind1
brain shouId be cenlre slage in lhe sludy of SLA.
Hovever, much of SLA research sliII suffers from
||cc| |cx sqn!rcmc. Why do you lhink lhal is`
Whal is lhe remedy`
ZD: In lhe asl lhe bIack box syndrome had an
obvious reason: We simIy didn'l knov vhal
vas going on in lhe brain. Wilh lhe emergence
of brain scanning and neuroimaging lechniques,
lhis silualion has seemingIy changed bul has
il` In my book I lried lo offer a baIanced viev
of neuroimaging, aIso describing some serious
concerns vilh lhe lechnoIogy lhal is so oflen
nol exressed in rofessionaI ubIicalions. As I
concIuded: The urose of lhis fairIy delaiIed
overviev of various issues and concerns lhal
have been raised vilh regard lo lhe vaIidily of
neuroimaging melhods vas nol lhe desire lo
undermine lhis research direclion and encourage
readers lo disregard ils hndings. I have made
il cIear above lhal in lhe absence of overfuI
aIlernalives, neuroimaging is IikeIy lo remain
lhe driving force in lhe deveIomenl of cogni-
live neuroscience. Inslead, my ob|eclive vas lo
shov lhal as vilh any olher research melhod,
neuroimaging lechniques have bolh slrenglhs
and veaknesses and ve shouId nol lake eve-
rylhing for granled, even if il is accomanied
by coIourfuI images of lhe brain. Il seems lo
me lhal lhe currenl lide of inleIIecluaIIy lhin
aers dressed u in neuro-lechno Ianguage is
vorrying and I have yel lo be convinced lhal lhe
neuroimaging sludies conducled in lhe heId of
second Ianguage sludies can deIiver lhe much-
availed breaklhrough in our underslanding of
sychoIinguislic henomena (. 76). Thus, ve
are in a curious slale vilh regard lo lhe bIack box
syndrome: We sliII don'l knov lhal much aboul
vhal is going on vilhin lhe box, bul ve are so
lanlaIisingIy cIose... So erhas ve shouId seak
aboul a grcq |cx sqn!rcmc nov`
RM: Whal message do you vanl lo gel oul lo
second Ianguage leachers and researchers`
ZD: I lhoughl a Iol aboul lhis issue vhiIe vriling
lhis book, and one day I came u vilh a mela-
horic summary lhal seems lo calure my main
message veII: AII in aII, lhis book is nol unIike
lhe diary of an exIorer. I have done my besl lo
visil vhal I lhoughl vere lhe mosl exciling and
exolic Iaces vilhin lhis arl of lhe (inleIIecluaI)
vorId, and during my exIoralion I made
exlensive heId noles lo record and organize my
exeriences. 1nc Psqcnc|cgq cj Scccn! Icngucgc
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22
| |oaoos' |ooo
Acuisiiicn is in many vays lhe ediled coIIeclion
of lhese noles. As vilh olher diaries, some of lhe
insighls are more discerning lhan olhers, and
some mighl lurn oul mereIy lo oulIine inlriguing
slales of affairs vilhoul gelling anyvhere near
lo lhe bollom of lhose. Ior many readers, lhe
region exIored is IikeIy lo be a slrange Iand, fuII
of odd and erhas menacing eIemenls. Yel, lhe
inescaabIe lrulh is lhal SLA researchers need lo
become skiIIed rangers in lhese lerrilories lhe
sychoIogicaI asecls viII nol go avay bul viII
lake u an increasingIy cenlraI osilion vilhin
lhe sludy of lhe acquisilion of a foreign or
second Ianguage. I do hoe lhal lhis book viII
be usefuI in galhering lhe righl equimenl and
gaining conhdence before embarking on lhe nexl
exedilion (. xii-xiii).
RM: Your book discusses lhe CrilicaI Ieriod
Hyolhesis (CIH) in delaiI. CIH has been a
conlroversiaI loic for a Iong lime. Whal is your
currenl lake on il`
ZD: The main Iesson I Iearnl from my reviev
of lhe Iileralure is lhal lhere are no simIe and
unambiguous ansvers vhen il comes lo CIH.
Ior examIe, lhe qcungcr is |ciicr rinciIe vilh
vhich mosl eoIe vouId robabIy agree is
lolaIIy inaccurale vhen ve Iearn a foreign
Ianguage in a schooI conlexl, lhere lhe oIder is
oflen beller! When ve aroach lhe age issue in
SLA, ve inevilabIy face a comIex syslem vilh
muIliIe overfuI faclors and comonenls lhal
can form a number of comeIIing combinalions:
neurobioIogicaI and cognilive rocesses lake
Iace in lhe brain, sociaI lra|eclories are aclivaled
by differenl ages of arrivaI in immigranl silua-
lions, and slrong inlerferences are lo be execled
bolh from our L1 syslem and our ersonaI char-
aclerislics. AccordingIy, I have come lo beIieve
lhal lhe age issue invoIves lhe mosl comIex
syslem dynamics in lhe vhoIe SLA domain.
RM: Why shouId SLA sludy incororale lhe
sludy of emolion` Whal is lhe conneclion
belveen emolion and Iearning (beyond moliva-
lion)`
ZD: This is a huge loic, bul lhe currenl silualion
is sadIy slraighlforvard: Aarl from a fev exce-
lions (e.g. lhe vork of }ohn Schumann, Ieler
MacInlyre and }ean-Marc DevaeIe), emolions
have been by and Iarge negIecled in lhe heId of
SLA. This is aII lhe more surrising given lhal:
(a) cIassrooms are venues for a greal deaI of
emolionaI lurmoiI, (b) emolions are knovn lo be
saIienl sources of aclion (e.g. vhen ve acl oul of
fear or anger or hainess), and (c) lhe rocess
of Ianguage Iearning is oflen emolionaIIy highIy
Ioaded for many eoIe. Ior lhese reasons, in my
book I roose lhal ve comIeleIy relhink lhe
roIe of emolions in SLA, and in lhe discussion of
Iearner characlerislics in Chaler Iive I lreal lhe
emolionaI syslem as equaI lo lhe cognilive and
molivalionaI syslems.
RM: I aIaud your boId synlhesis of Dynamic
Syslems Theory (DST) inlo your book. Why is
DST reIevanl`
ZD: I am genuineIy Ieased lhal you lhink lhal a
focus on DST is a osilive asecl of my book. Ior
me lhis has robabIy been lhe grealesl discovery
of lhe asl hve years: DST concerns comIex
syslems lhal have many inleracling comonenls,
and lhe main lenel of lhe lheory is lhal because
lhese comonenls are inlerreIaled and yel aIso
have lheir indeendenl deveIomenlaI Iife, lheir
behaviour cannol be described in lhe Iinear,
cause-effecl vay lhal ve Iike lo seak aboul
lhings in lhe vorId (e.g. molivalion Ieads lo
achievemenl). Inslead, ve have lo acknovI-
edge lhal everylhing deends on lhe overaII
consleIIalion of faclors. This is vhy somelimes
a considerabIe amounl of inul inlo lhe syslem
roduces onIy minimaI change (somelhing ve
unforlunaleIy oflen observe vilh Ianguage
Iearners), vhereas al olher limes a much smaIIer
evenl can have a disroorlionaleIy huge imacl
(e.g. vhen suddenIy some unexecled coinci-
dence changes one's vhoIe vorId viev). DST is
inlended lo deaI vilh such silualions, and in lhe
naluraI sciences il is aIready a Ieading research
aradigm. My 'discovery' vas lhal aImosl
everylhing in lhe heId of SLA is besl conceived
as a dynamic syslem, I am ulling lhe vord
'discovery' in inverled commas because il vas
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23
Murpby: / tc.c. .t' Zc't. |c,c
nol me vho came u vilh lhese ideas I vas
mereIy foIIoving lhe advice of olher schoIars
in lhe heId, mosl nolabIy lhal of Diane Larsen-
Ireeman, Lynne Cameron, Nick LIIis and Kees
de ol. Their recenl ubIicalions convinced me
lhal DST mighl lurn oul lo be lhe dominanl
framevork for fulure research in SLA.
RM: Whal is lhe reIevance of IndividuaI Differ-
ences (ID)`
ZD: AII of us can Iearn a hrsl Ianguage our
molher longue bul many of us viII faiI vilh
Iearning a subsequenl Ianguage. I beIieve lhal
lhe besl exIanalion for lhis varialion has so far
been given by ID research, lhe sludy of various
Iearner characlerislics. Having said lhal, I aIso
beIieve ve shouId radicaIIy reconsider vhal IDs
mighl invoIve, and lherefore I devoled a vhoIe
chaler of lhe book (Chaler 5) oulIining a nev,
dynamic concelion of Iearner faclors.
RM: You deIiver olenl oinls regarding imIic-
il1exIicil Iearning. IIease give us an overviev.
ZD: The exIicil1imIicil dicholomy aears
in many forms in research on Ianguage acquisi-
lion, and il has been frequenlIy aIied lo SLA
research as veII. The gisl of lhe exIicil1imIicil
conlrasl is cIear: cxp|icii has somelhing lo do vilh
consciousness, vhiIe imp|icii is associaled vilh
unconscious, aulomalic or indirecl rocesses.
There is generaI agreemenl amongsl schoIars
lhal infanls acquire lheir hrsl Ianguage rimariIy
lhrough imIicil Iearning, bul Ialer ve seem lo
be running inlo some obslacIe in lhis resecl. Ior
some reason, lhe imIicil Iearning rocessor lhal
ve used so successfuIIy before does nol seem
lo vork efhcienlIy vhen ve vanl lo masler an
L2 al a Ialer slage in our Iives, eseciaIIy if lhe
Iearning lakes Iace in a schooI selling. This
makes il necessary for second Ianguage Iearners
lo drav on lhe addilionaI resources of various
exIicil Iearning rocedures. As a resuIl, lhe
reaI chaIIenge for foreign Ianguage leaching
in our cenlury viII be lo secify lhe nalure of
lhe olimaI cooeralion belveen exIicil and
imIicil Iearning rocesses, for examIe by
describing hov direclIy and syslemalicaIIy lhe
various comonenls of lhe L2 code (e.g. various
ruIes or Iexis) need lo be deaIl vilh in Ianguage
cIassrooms.
RM: Whal are your fulure Ians`
ZD: I am nov commilled lo ursuing my
research incIuding my research on L2 moliva-
lion vilhin lhe framevork of DST. Hovever,
a common concern amongsl schoIars vho
acknovIedge lhe imorlance of lhis aroach
is lhe uncerlainly of hov lo conducl emiricaI
sludies in a dynamic syslems vein. There are
obvious difhcuIlies vilh modeIIing nonIinear,
dynamic change, observing lhe oeralion of lhe
vhoIe syslem and lhe inleraclion of lhe arls
ralher lhan focusing on secihc unils in il, and
reIacing convenlionaI quanlilalive research
melhodoIogy and slalislics vilh aIlernalive
melhods and looIs. CurrenlIy lhere are fev se-
cihc guideIines or lemIales avaiIabIe lo foIIov,
bul il is my hoe lhal over lhe nexl fev years
ve viII be abIe lo make considerabIe inroads
inlo bridging lhis ga. This is lhe chaIIenge lhal
occuies my lhinking mosl al lhe momenl.
Reference
Dornyei, Z. (2OO9). 1nc Psqcnc|cgq cj Scccn!
Icngucgc Acuisiiicn. xford: II.
Rnbcrt 5. Murphy is a docloraI
sludenl in Cognilive DeveIo-
menl and AIied Lingusilics
and has an MA in TLIL1TLSL
from lhe Iniversily of irming-
ham. He is currenlIy vorking
vilh WIDL WorId, Harvard
Graduale SchooI of Lducalion
and olher inslilulions in bringing neuroscience
and sychoIogy cIoser lo SLA research in }aan.