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EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDERSON BEGINNING OF TAPE 2................ BEGINNING OF TAPE 3,,...,,...,..... DEPOSITION EXHTBTT 18,,.,..,....,,.,.....
STTE OF MINNSSOT
COUNTY
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DISTRICT COURl
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DOE 1,
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Plaintiff,
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Deposition NIENSTEDT, taken Deposition, Notary State Public of RCHAISHOP to Notice
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JOHN
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pursuant
of Taking
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and taken
before
Gary W. Helnes,
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n and for
Ehe county
of Ramsey,
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of Minnesota,
on th
commencing at approxhately
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FFILITED
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COURT REPORTERS
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sT. PUL, N
55113 (612)338-4348
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APPEARANCES:
JEFFREY R, ANDERSON, ESQ,, MICHAEL G,
PROCEEDINGS
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FINNEGAN, ESQ,, SARAH ODEGAARD, ESQ,, and ELIN LINDSTROM, ESQ., Attorneys
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Street, Suite 100, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101, appeared for Plaintiff.
DANIEL A. HAWS, ESQ., Attorney at
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Law, 30 East 7th Street, Suite 3200, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101, appeared for Archdiocese of
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Law, 22OO Bremer Tower, 445 Minnesota Street, St, Paul, Minnesota 55101, appeared for Archdiocese of St, Paul and Minneapolis, THOMAS R, BRAUN, ESQ., Attorney at Law, 117 East Center Street, Rochester, Minnesota 55904, appeared for Diocese of
Winona,
JOSEPH F. KUEPPERS, ESQ., Chancellor
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MR, ANDERSON: Okay. Let's start the record for purposes of the deposition, and before we begin the actual deposition of the archbishop, there are a few matters that we need to put on the record, The first pertains to the disclosure or, more accurately, the lack of disclosure as we interpret the order of the court. It was our understanding and belief that Judge Van de North ordered the archdiocese to produce the documents and the files that we requested, at least for purposes of Archbishop Nienstedt's deposition, and we did not receive anything until 5:45 p,m, on Monday, When we did, it was formatted, I think, in disk and --
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for Civil Affairs, 101 East 5th Street, Suite 800, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101, appeared for Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis,
ALSO PRESENT:
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of the court as we read it and understood it to be. We, then, hustled to try to review what was turned over in preparation for this, and realizing that we had less than what was expected. Yesterday at five p,m., we received a second disclosure with a letter and in it there was a disk in this case with some additional disclosures pertaining to some additional files. We have not had time, nor will we use or attempt to use any of the materials provided at five o'clock last night. There's no way that is feasible or realistic, On quick review of that, however, it may appear that that disclosure continues to be less than complete and not in compliance with the couft order, so it is our position just for this record that the archdiocese is in noncompliance with the orders of the couft as it peftains to the disclosures required to be made for purposes of this deposition. And I think that's all I have to say about that for the moment. MR. HAWS: Well, just to respond, first, we produced all the priest files that
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deletions and non-productions and I think the order is clear, but it will speak for itself and we'll take it up another day. Just for purposes of mechanics of today, the court has ordered a deposition to be taken for four hours of the archbishop. I will expect there not to be speaking objections. If you have legal objections, I'm sure you'll state them. If there are speaking objections, I will count that time as not against the four hours. So I will have somebody calculating the time for speaking objections. If you choose to make speaking objections, I just want to aleft you to that. If it at any time you choose to take a break, Archbishop, that's fine. THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. MR, ANDERSON: Anything else by way of housekeeping before we proceed? MR, HAWS: (Shakes head). MR, ANDERSON: Okay. Let's begin the deposition. MR, HIBBEN: We are on the record. This is the videotape deposition of Archbishop John Nienstedt taken on April 2nd,2OI4. The
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existed and we put the redactions in in 2 accordance with what we had stated we would 3 when we were in front of the court the week 4 before, or last week, whenever that was. 5 We also advised you that this process of producing these files was extremely 6 7 cumbersome and time-consuming and that in our 8 letters we provided additional dates for I depositions of the archbishop if you felt you 10 needed it, and no one contacted us to make any 11 such requests. So we believe that we have 12 complied as best as we possibly can. We've l3 explained the difficulties in getting all of 14 this information to you in the time frame that you had requested, and so we're proceeding by 15 l6 providing you with what we could as best we 17 could and in compliance with the court order. l8 We don't agree with your rendition and, 19 obviously, we'll supplement the record and 20 identify for the court whatever we need to 21 should we get to that point. 22 MR. ANDERSON: I don't expect you to 23 agree with our view today. I do believe, 24 however, that you made those same arguments to 25 the court, I think they were rejected as to
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time now is approximately 9:05 a.m. 2 The deposition is being taken in the 3 matter of Doe 1 versus the Archdiocese of 4 Minneapolis and St. Paul, et al., in the state 5 of Minnesota, District Court, County of 6 Ramsey, Second Judicial District, This is 7 case number 62-CV-13-4075. The deposition is I taking place in St. Paul, Minnesota. 9 My name is Dean Hibben. I'm the l0 videographer representi ng Affil iated Video. 11 Will counsel please identify 12 themselves for the record? l3 MR. ANDERSON: For the plaintiff,
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Jeff Anderson. MR. FINNEGAN: For the plaintiff, Mike Finnegan, MS. ODEGAARD: For the plaintiff, Sarah Odegaard, MS. LINDSTROM: For the plaintiff, Elin Lindstrom. MR. HAWS: Dan Haws for the Archdiocese of St, Paul and Minneapolis. MR. WIESER: Tom Wieser for the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis. MR. BRAUN: Thomas Braun on behalf
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Yes,
have,
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N-i-e-n-s-t-e-d-t.
You've given depositions before, so you understand the protocol here today, do you
not?
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Yeah.
Do you continue to claim that the environment
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I do. I
do.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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I'm going to show you what we've marked -the court reporter)
BY MR, ANDERSON:
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installation?
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It would have been June 29th, 2OO7. It wasn't an installation per se. It's just when you become a coadjutor, you're just received.
And then you were appointed to be the
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statements you have made about the safety of children in this archdiocese?
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May 2nd, 2OO8. During your tenure as archbishop, it is correct to state that you have made a number
of public statements concerning the fact that
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Just in the last month, I did discover that there was a priest who had offended who retired, but continued periodically to celebrate mass on weekends, and I was not aware of his presence and I was not aware that
he was publicly in
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12 A. I believe it's Father LaVan. 13 0. And any other time, other than in the last
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month, that causes you to believe that the statements that you had made earlier about the safety of the children and the absence of offenders in the archdiocese ministry to be
corrected?
archbishop?
you had
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represented to the public and to the people that there are no offending priests in
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Could you restate the question, please? Have you received any other information that tells you that the statements you made about
the safety of the children in the archdiocese were not true? No. That's it, LaVan?
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A. a.
Lavan, yes. And that was last month. How did you get that
information?
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was in the process of doing our file review. Okay. Who was doing that review? Kinsale. Spellthat, K-i-n-s-a-l-e.
And once you received the information from Kinsale or Kinsale concerning LaVan, what
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correction, if any, did you make about the statements you had made to the public and the community of faith?
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A. I don't believe that I did. O. Do you think one is needed? A. He's out of ministry nowr so I don't see the a.
-- the point of -- of making that announcement, no. It had been known by the archdiocese that
LaVan had been accused credibly of abusing at least two girls and that was reflected in the
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files back over a decade ago, correct? I don't know that for -- for a -- for a fact' no.
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Sister Dominica, I can't think of her last name, but Sister Dominica and Mr. Andy Eisenzimmer. And how long was that meeting, sir? I -- to the best of my recollection, it was approximately two hours, I believe. It was a long meeting. And was that at the Chancery in your office? It was at the Chancery in one of our meeting rooms, yes, sir. And in preparation for that meeting, did you order or request that they review any or all
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When you came on as archbishop, did you ever make any effort, from the time of your
materials held by the archdiocese concerning priests who may have been accused, credibly or
otherwise?
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installation and to the discovery of the LaVan material by Kinsale, to see actually that the statements you were making to the public about the safety of the children were true?
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of the meeting, I asked give they knew concerning me all that to them the safe environments of the archdiocese.
7A.. I met with my staff and they affirmed for me the fact that there was no one in ministry who I
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And did anybody put or record by memo or recording the contents of that meeting?
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had credibly abused any children. When did you first meet with your staff to make such a determination that the environment
was safe?
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I don't believe
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any written materials?
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Shortly after my reception into the a rchdiocese as coadjutor' a. What staff did you meet with to determine the safety of the environment and whether or not
there were priests in ministry who had
offended?
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compiled, under the Charter for the Protection of Children, a list of credibly accused offenders, correct?
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met with my delegate for safe environments and I met with my civil and canonical chancellors.
And so the delegate for safe environments wasf
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that. I'm not sure I was aware of that at that time, but I was aware shortly
I was
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I believe.
yeah, P-O-M-S.
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Correqt.
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correct?
I believe,
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Correct.
And you were a part of -- one of the bishops
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that made such a representation to the people in the U.S. about zero tolerance, correct? A. Correct.
So you knew at that time the bishops then commissioned John Jay to do a study to
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Correct.
And did you ask him the names of the priests
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determine, based on nformation given them, various lists of credibly accused offenders?
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I don't recall exactly when that list was asked for. My recollection was it was in 2004, but I'm not -- I'm not sure about that.
That sounds correct?
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16 0. Why didn't you write it down? 17 A. It didn't occur to me at the time to do so. 18 a. At the time, didn't it seem like one of the
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most important things you needed to do as
archbishop, knowing the crisis in America of Catholic clergy abusing kids, to know who in
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this archdiocese had been accused and who are currently being monitored?
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I did, yes.
Did you ask that such a list for the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis be
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Well,
precisely so
that I would know what the situation was and that I could assure myself and assure my publics (sic) that the environments were safe.
But, Archbishop, you can't remember who that
was that you were told today?
presented to you at this first meeting concerning safe environment in this archdiocese?
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44. I did not. 5Q. Why not? 64. It ddn't occur to me, 7Q. So, tell me, then, who conducted the meeting? 84. Father McDonough conducted the meeting. eQ. And tell us what Father McDonough told you,
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There were several names that were given to me and I was assured that their stuatons were being monitored and that they were not likely to re-offend and that was the primary purpose of the meetng.
Archbishop, responsive to your request about the safe or lack of safe environment in the
Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis and
10 0. And you say "several names." How many? 11 A. I don't recall exactly. There were -- there
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were several.
Well, what does "several" mean? Is that more
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what priests had been accused and what priests were or were not in ministry.
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Well, he described for me the that we have, which s our montoring system for priests who have abused, and explained to me how that worked and explained the situation of what those prests -- that those priests were not engaged in ministry and -Okay. I'm going to stop you there. I'm sorry
to interrupt you, but you said the POMS
program?
POMS program
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don't have to guess, Archbishop. If you know, you can answer it, if you don't -A.
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Well, I was told that we have a promoter of these safe environments who meets regularly with the individuals. I was told that they were undergoing regular therapy, that they were in spiritual direction and that they had to sign a contract to the effect of how they would be monitored.
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-- he did not -- as I recall, he did not tell me exactly who he made the disclosures to, but, generally speaking, they were people in the parish that he served.
He Well, didn't you ask? Didn't you say, "Father McDonough, we have a number of priests who
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you" -- and that number you can't remember today, "who are are under monitoring, who we know have offended in the past," didn't you 9o
back and say, "Tell me exactly what you're
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MR, HAWS: When You saY "then," you're referring to the time of the meeting?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes.
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so that
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BY MR. ANDERSON: And when you say that they were to sign an agreement, would that be an agreement not to re-offend?
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understand more clearly how the environments that we have in our parishes and our schools would be safe for children and that's our primary objective. o. Archbishop, isn't it correct that you really didn't want the public and the people to know
who was being monitored at that time? MR. HAWS: Well, that's objection,
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experience with offenders, clergy or nonclergy, who are accused and who have offended,
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A. I don't believe that's true, no. a. well, then, can you tell me exactly what
offenders that had been monitored or under monitoring were, then, actually disclosed to
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that there's a high recidivsm rate and when they do re-offend, they often lie and deny
about it so that you can't rely upon them?
Were you aware of that?
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who were disclosed to you at that meeting were ever disclosed to the public?
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tell me what we were doing n terms of making sure that these men were being monitored and that they had a program that we were holding them to.
Did you, as a result of that meeting, disclose
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they have been. I can't tell you the exact dates or the tmes that they have been disclosed, but they have been disclosed. Can you tell me the name of any offender or the time in which it was done when the
archdiocese, under your direction, either Kevin McDonough or anybody else, made an actual disclosure and it wasn't made by somebody, some third party --
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to anybody in the public or any of the parishioners any of the names that you were given by your team about those priests who
were being monitored and who had offended?
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A. well, yes. a. -- such as media or ourselves? A. This past October, I believe, we made our
first disclosures.
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your installation that you described, between that and October 13th of this last year -October of this last year, you can't identify
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today any disclosures made of any of these accused offenders who were being monitored to
I serving? MR. ANDERSON: I'm sPeaking the 2 priests that are being monitored. 3 4 A. well-5 6 7
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serving?
MR. ANDERSON: The question stands.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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testimony.
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Correct. Correct.
They are all priests who are in ministry, correct?
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No. They wouldn't be if they were out of ministry, they wouldn't be active as priests.
And so they were in various capacities in the
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A. A.
I was coadiutor,
yes.
Yeah. And, in any case, we'll call them your inner circle, but beyond your inner circle,
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you mean
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I'm asking you to tell me, if you can, if there were any disclosures made of any of
these offenders identified to you who were under monitoring to the public until October of 2013?
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Father McDonough informed me that as part of our procedures, we would disclose to ceain people in parishes where -- where priests had
served.
And how was it determined who would be told in
Are you saying, then, Archbishop, that the monitoring program only covered priests that
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No. I'm not saying that. Okay. Let's break it down then. How many of
those priests that you were told were under monitoring were actually in parishes then?
those parishes?
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recollect now, it was pastor and the trustees of the parish' the
My recollection is, as What about the parishioners and the public, didn't they have a right to know who was being monitored and who had been accused?
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monitoring system' the POMS program, included priests who had abused children and -- and priests who had other behavioral difficulties. For example, if they had been arrested for a DW -- a drunk while -- driving while -- while drunk or other kinds of abnormal, I would say' behaviors, so that was all put together. It wasn't just those who had abused children.
O.
How many, then, that were accused of having abused children were disclosed to you that
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A. I don't recall that number. O. And how many of that number were still in
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ministry?
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My recollection is that only the one that cited before was in ministry and he was
And is that Ken LaVan? Yes.
And that was
Well, we --
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-- in terms of public disclosure? We made sure that if there was an incident that happened, that the trustees of the parish would be -- be informed of that. And then, of course, last October we made a full disclosure.
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disclosure of Ken LaVan having been accused as an offender and that he had been under monitoring?
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8Q. Are you sure it wasn't December that you made I that disclosure? 10 A. I don't recall an exact date. 11 a. When you say "a full disclosure," what do you
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them under monitoring as you've described in this program, isn't it reasonable that the
public and the parishioners in the community of faith be advised that there is a reason to put a priest under monitoring and that you
have this program so that they can know there is an issue? MR, HAWS: Objection, calls for a
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Of the 43 persons that we put on our website Archbishop, you have resisted very vigorously
through your counsel and publicly the dissemination of the list of accused offenders and credibly accused offenders, have you not?
MR, HAWS: Objection, it's again
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Could you repeat the question? I'm sorry. You have continuously, until ordered by the court, resisted making a public disclosure of
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Why didn't you tell the people that you had number of priests under monitoring?
the names of the credibly accused offenders on the list compiled by the archdiocese, have you
not? MR. HAWS: Objection, that misstates
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O. You still feel that way? 7 A. No. r do not. I A. What made you realize that that was a bad
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My understanding is that we voluntarily disclosed those names, the first names on the John Jay list, we voluntarily went to the court, asking them to unseal those names because there had been such a notoriety' I would say, about that lst of John Jay' and as
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argumentative,
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argumentative.
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as being archbishop, into how we should had new insights have proceed with these -- these situations.
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20 0. And so when did you realize that? 21 A. I don't -- I can't give you an exact date, but
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it's been probably over the last two years I've come to appreciate that.
So in the last two years, once having realized
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it was very evident and imminent that it was going to be required, correct?
MR, HAWS: Objection, misstates
see any reason to disclose. After that first meeting you've described in which you were informed that priests were
placed on monitoring and no memo was made of that or notes taken by you and/or recording made of that meeting, why not? Why not? Why
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you made the conscious choice to voluntarily release that list -We did, yes.
not record that? Why not put it in a memo? Why not get that list at that time? MR. HAWS: Objection. Can You break
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Why not make a recording of the whole thing? Ddn't it seem important enough to get down,
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Well, in a -- in an attempt to be transparent with our publics, with the Catholics in the pew, because the media had made such a big deal out of the John Jay list. It was public pressure, wasn't it? I -- I wouldn't say so. I think it was conversion on my pa to see that this was something we should do. Was it legal pressure by us? No, sir.
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A.
It
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le
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was important to me. I asked for the meetng with Father McDonough so that I could have an idea of where we were n terms of our safe environments.
Were you concerned, Archbishop, that we
o.
shouldn't make some recording of this meeting about these decisions to keep this secret or
not because, if you did, it might be subject to some discovery by us or others who were in litigation with you and the archdiocese? No. That didn't occur to me at the time.
36
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25
34
1
A.
rQ.
2A.. 3Q.
4
5
6
Yeah.
There were multiple sources. Okay, If it wasn't us and it wasn't the media
putting on pressure, you say you had conversion. What gave you this conversion, then, if it wasn't public pressure by us or the media? Discussion with my team, who it would be my communications director, my chancellor for
2
3
4Q.
5 6
7
Did it ever occur to you at any time or were you told that some of these things, conversations shouldn't be put in writing
because they could be discovered by us in
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litigation and known to the public? believe that Father McDonough once said that
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11
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civil affairs, my chancellor for canonical affairs, my auxiliary bishops, my moderator of the curia. 0. And who urged you to keep it quiet on that
team up until that time? MR, HAWS: Object to the form.
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11
to me, but it was outside of that context, can't recall exactly the date.
recollection of that.
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16
17
A.
I can't
18 0.
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21
BY MR. ANDERSON: Before you actually had this conversion after meetng with the team that you described, had any urged you to make it public so that the public could know who's on it?
15 a. What were you discussing? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 a. Who were you discussing? 18 A. That I don't recall, either. 1e a. Anybody else give you that guidance? 20 A. No, sir. 21 0. Anybody else present at the McDonough
22
meeting
you made the choice to keep that list secret, did you not?
23
24
25
A.
It wasn't at that meeting. I did not want to imply that. I don't recall the circumstances
in which he had said that.
O4/O812014 07:53:37 AM
25
A.
It
I didn't
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to 36 of 202
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about when McDonough you else present? was anybody told that, I don't believe so, no.
You must have been discussing something very sensitive at that time, but you just don't recall today what it was and who may have been involved?
34.
4Q.
5 6 7
do not.
4
5
6 7
o. Okay.
mind that you're thinking today, I do remember discussing X priest and making the conscious decision that we can't put that in writing because if we do, Anderson and his team will discover it, it could be public?
MR, HAWS: Well, first, that assumes
I I
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I I
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11
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o,
A.
12 13 '14 15
In terms of?
Not putting certain things into writing. Yes. How many different times do you think you chose not to put certain things into writing concerning scandalous material such as sexual abuse by (sic) minors?
facts not in evidence, I don't think he's ever testified to that, Archbishop, don't guess or don't just assume that that's what
happened just because the question is asked
14 15
16 17
o,
A.
that way. A.
o,
16
17
I would
be guessing.
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21
18 a.
19 20
a 21
A.
have been very many. o. Well, "very many," Does that mean more than
dozen or less?
It wouldn't
any memory of the contents of any conversation concerning any offender today that falls into
22 23 24 25
A.
o.
My understanding today is that would -- would have been less. Okay. Tell me the times that you remember
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1
A.
I don't -40
having conversations where you made the conscious choice not to put it into writing
because you were concerned, as McDonough had advised you, that it may be subject to discovery in litigation and you didn't want it
2 3
2
3
A. -- for the same reasons at any time? A. I don't believe I did, no. O, Okay, So that would be just you and McDonough
that that particular practice would apply to,
correct?
MR. HAWS: Objection, that's not
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5 6
4
5 6 7
7A..
sQ.
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9
what he stated that it was a practice, as you've implied, counsel, Don't misstate the
record,
MR. ANDERSON: Give me a legal
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12 a.
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12
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objection, not a speaking -MR, HAWS: The objection is don't put facts into the record that are not
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those discussions, there would be no way to test or determine today how many times you actually did have such a conversation,
correct?
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A.
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any of
21
those meetings or the contents of any of those meetings where you made the conscious choice
not to record it because it could be discovered or discoverable in litigation and
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25
appropriate, counsel, and you know it, MR, ANDERSON: That is not a legal
objection.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
A.
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A. A. O.
had been dropped before he left the Gountry. Did you not know that until you reviewed the
summary?
44.
5
6
Not to my knowledge. MR. HAWS: Same objections' (Discussion out of the hearing of the cou reporter)
BY MR. ANDERSON:
4
5 6
I became
sQ.
10
Archbishop, did you review any materials in preparation for your deposition today?
had left the country and the archdiocese? I I A. Yes, I was aware of that. t0 O. How did you become aware of that? A. I believe at the time that -- at the time that 11
12 13 14 15
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16
the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People. I reviewed a summary of the Adamson case. And I reviewed the case of Father Montero.
Anything else?
he had left and a letter was sent from Bishop Pates to the bishop in Mexico, explaining to him the situation that we had experienced here.
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17 0.
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21
A.
No, sir.
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any of your subordinates and those in the inner circle, the chancellors or the vicar generals or auxiliary bishops, ever retrieve any files of those who had been accused so that you could make an independent decsion to review those files YourselP
1e o. 22
23
Okay, When you're saying you reviewed a summary of the Adamson case, what was that that you looked at?
20
21
A.
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24 0. 25 A.
A. O.
Could you repeat the question? Had you ever reviewed any of the files, except for what you just described involving Adamson
44
By Mr. Kueppers.
42
rQ.
2
And when was it prepared and was it for your review in this deposition?
2
3
34.
4Q. 54.
6
7Q. 84.
I beg your pardon? When was it prepared? I believe it was in the last two to three weeks. And for this deposition to helP You?
Yes. And was the same kind of thing prepared for Montero, that you reviewed?
and Montero prepared for you, have you, yourself, ever reviewed any of the priest files personally so that you could be satisfied that you were making the right
decisions concerning that Priest?
4 5
6
A.
eQ.
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compound and --
We've had in -- since December a complete review of the files by an outside company called Kinsale.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
11 A. No. It wasn't as extensive. 12 0. But was that also prepared by Mr. Kueppers
13
for
12 13
O. A. A.
14 A. 15 a.
Correct.
Anything else that you reviewed?
14
15 16 17 18 19
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17
A.
No,
names of the 43
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19 20 0.
22 23 24
Okay, That's something you delegated, though, isn't it, to somebodY else? Something that we hired a group, outside company for, yes' Now, I'm asking you personally' Have you ever
said, "I want to review the file of Father X," and have that file produced to you in its
20
21
Montero summary prepared for you in this deposition -- in preparation for this deposition that you had not known before about Montero and his historY?
entirety so you could make a fully informed decision about what to do or not to do? Have
you personally ever done that?
22
23 24
A. I don't recall that I have. O. And until recently, you had delegated that
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14. To the delegate for safe environments. 2Q. And that would have been McDonough? 34. It was Father McDonough until about a year ago
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5
when Father Dan Griffith, another priest of the archdiocese, took that position over.
And did you make the decision to remove McDonough because of disclosures about how he had handled this publicly and there was both
4
6 6 7 8
A. O.
6Q.
7 8
Any other actions taken by Kevin McDonough as your delegate for safe environment or as vicar
general that you look back on now and say, "He
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11
I
10
11
blew it when it comes to protection of the children and the recommendation he made to
me"?
MR. HAWS: Object to the form, it's
A.
12 13
No. I realized that he had multiPle responsibilities, he'd been in the job lor L7 years and I felt it was time that we needed a change. Excuse me.
Have you at any time warned, penalized or
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reprimanded McDonough for the way he handled his job as the delegate for safe environment under your charge?
17
huh?
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A.
1s
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o.
A.
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A. I believe he did. O, Do you think you're doing a good job? A. I believe I am, yes.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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I've always believed that the -- the best intentions. He ceainly shared with me the priority we had of
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25
maintaining safe environments in our parishes, our schools and our other programs.
46 My question goes to actions, not intentions. Have you ever reprimanded or criticized or
O.
Have you, yourself, when you reflect on what has happened to date and all that has been 48 revealed to you to this date and time, have you, yourself, made any mistakes in failing to protect children and provide the safe
1Q.
2 3
,l
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4
5
faulted him for any of his actions taken concerning any of these priests who have offended and have been accused of offending? I don't recall having done so.
As you reflect today and look back at the
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5
environment to this community that you promised when you took the job?
64. 7Q.
8 9
64.
7
8
history now before you, do you fault him for any of the decisions that he made as your delegate and/or as vicar general in this archdiocese concerning the safety of children?
I
l0
know for sure I made was not removing the faculties from Father Lavan, but I didn't know that that was happening at the time. Once I learned it, I
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11
-- I acted,
Any others? Is that it? Father Lavan, then, for a moment, You continued to maintain publicly Protection of Children adopted in 2002 to believe that this archdiocese has a zero
11 0.
12
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A.
fact that
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to my mind is the learned subsequent to -subsequent to the -- the fact that when Father Wehmeyer was arrested for drunk driving' that that was not shared with the trustees and I -there was some reason that he had for not doing that, I disagreed with him in that decision. That's the only one I can think of.
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standard, yes'
And you say you have tried to maintain that as
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A.
I believe
we have.
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that in the last 20 years, we have had two incidents; now, those are two too many, but two incidents in which a child had been abused by priests who were in ministry at the time.
1Q.
2
34.
4Q.
5
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No,
I don't.
Are you aware that as soon as Montero was allowed to leave the archdiocese and return to his home diocese in Ecuador, he was placed in active ministry?
a.
A.
I a. I
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We removed his faculties when the accusation arose. We never gave him back faculties and he returned home to his own home diocese.
And did you tell the bishop of his home diocese that his faculties had been removed because an accusation of child sexual abuse
11 a.
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14 a.
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A.
Did
I say what?
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A. Yes,
16 0.
Didn't you say that the zero tolerance policy was not adhered to when it came to Montero?
I believe Bishop Pates was the one that wrote to the bishop about that.
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A.
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No. I didn't say that. We -- we immediately removed him from ministry and turned the case over to the police, so I believe that we maintained the zero policy that we had.
Did you ever review the Montero file itselP
17 a. 18 A.
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And what bishop did Bishop Pates write to? To the bishop of the diocese,
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21
I can't recall the -- the exact diocese in Ecuador. 0. And were you aware that Father Montero was
immediately returned to active ministry in
Ecuador?
22 0. 23 A. 24 a.
25
22
No.
Were you aware that Montero was living with
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24
A.
I would only be speculating to say that I did. I -- I don't know for sure.
I called Father Montero shortly after we
52
25 0.
1
14. I believe I did know that. 2Q. Were you aware that Father McDonough
3
had some
2 3
4
5
responsibilities for supervision over him because Montero was an extern priest from
Ecuador?
that he was in Ecuador and talked with him and he was, then, in active ministry; and did you know that we had a conversation with him?
64.
7
Well, my understanding was that he -- he lived in the rectory at St. Peter Claver.
And that's where Father McDonough was assigned as pastor?
54. 6Q.
7
8
I did not.
Did you see anything in the Montero file that you reviewed that we had had such a conversation?
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8Q. I
A.
eA.
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11
Correct.
And he was assigned there so McDonough could keep an eye on him; were you aware of that?
I did not specifically review the Montero file. I had a summary from my civil
chancellor.
Father Montero did not indicate that any restrictions on his faculties had been placed and he was in active ministry. Does that concern you that he's now in Ecuador in active ministry?
11 a.
'12 0.
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13 A. I was not aware of that. 14 a. Were you aware that Montero -15 A. That was before my time. 16 a. Were you aware that Montero was allowed to
17
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believe that's why Bishop Pates wrote the letter to the bishop, we were concerned about that. But I'm talking about today, about the kids in Well,
Ecuador. Having reviewed what Mr. Kueppers
gave you in preparation for this deposition and having reviewed that, are you now
concerned that maybe something more should be done about Montero being in Ecuador, given the
04/08/2014 07:53:37 AM
22
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A.
--
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23
the -- the -- the charges aganst him were dropped before he left the country.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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demoted or taken any disciplinary action against any priest or official of the
archdiocese for their mishandling of child
argumentative. Go ahead.
54.
6
Yes.
7Q. I
9
Maybe we should do something about was able to call him and talk to
that. I
54. I don't believe sor no. 6Q. Do you believe you should have? 7A.. No.
8
him. Maybe
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this would be a great opportunity for you to directly contact the bishop of Ecuador and
say, "Bishop, we do have concerns based on what Mr. Kueppers has told me and the information we have about the safety of the children in Ecuador, about Freddie Montero."
Maybe you should give him a full disclosure of
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what you know here and about what happened. Do you think that's a good idea?
MR. HAWS: Objection, that has
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16 0. 17 A. 18 0.
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argumentative, it's a speech, it's compound, asks dozens of questions within it, it assumes
facts not in evidence, it's your facts, Ask question and he can answer.
MR. ANDERSON: SPeaking objections
a
22 23 24 25
23
24 A. I'm not, no. 25 0. Are you aware that in 2002, he was publicly -56
1
BY MR. ANDERSON:
a.
2A. I'm not aware of that. 3Q. At any time, are you aware that the
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parishioners or the public were ever informed that Father Michael Stevens posed a risk of harm to the children in the archdiocese?
O.
I I O. l0 A. 11 O. 12 A.
13
74. 8Q.
o
That was all before my time. Are you aware that Father Michael Stevens is
in monitoring?
As
r indicated --
14
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A.
-- about Freddie Montero. As I indicated before, he's already been contacted, yes. That happened before I became archbishop. I would be willing to contact him again and to share my concerns with him, yes. I would appreciate that. I think it's very
important that you do
l0 A. 11 0.
12
Excuse me?
Are you aware that Father Michael Stevens is on monitoring now?
13
15 16 17
A.
In the
,14 0.
And the only ones that know that are now us and those in your inner circle, correct? MR. HAWS: Object to the
form. I
A. l9 O.
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21
You're welcome.
Have you at any time reprimanded, punished,
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o.
demoted or taken any action against any priest for -- or official for their mishandling of childhood sexual abuse while archbishop?
22 23 24
A.
22 A. I don't know that for -- as fact. 23 0. Are you aware that Father Michael Stevens,
24
25
while on monitoring, still performs IT work for the archdiocese and for varous parishes?
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Deacon o'Rourke
3Q. 44.
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4Q.
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the name I couldn't remember before, but Mr. John Selvig is now the monitor. Is it O'Rourke or Rourke? I've seen it both
ways,
8Q.
9
64. 7Q. I
o 10
Yeah,
l0
BY MR. ANDERSON:
1'l
'12
A.
It
11 a.
'|2
Are you aware, Archbishop, that Father McDonough communicated to the monitor, Rourke, concerning Stevens that Stevens was in four to
13 0.
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five parishes and the pastors in those -doing IT work and a priest, the pastors had
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20
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referring to?
BY MR. ANDERSON:
archbishop, correct?
21 A. I don't have those dates. 22 a. Does it concern you to hear and learn that you
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had and have a priest by the name of Michael Stevens who was on the monitoring plan -- and by the way, that monitoring plan, did you
58
21 0. I'm just asking if you're aware of that. 22 A. I was not aware of that. 23 0. Are you aware that Jennifer Haselberger, your
24 25
former chancellor for canonical affairs, raised concerns with Father Laird in 2011
60
2 3
about Stevens' status as a priest in the parishes doing this IT work and that he had
had a criminal conviction?
4
5 6 7
A. a.
I inherited it from my predecessor. Does it concern you that you have Michael Stevens on such a montoring plan and that he
is still a priest and allowed to go into parishes and do IT work, knowing that he had been accused and not under monitoring?
44. I was not aware of that. 5Q. Is it your testimony that Father Laird never
6
I
9
7A.. 8Q. I
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A,
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A.
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o,
A.
I -- I would
Thank
16 0. Did you remove Father Laird as vicar general? 17 A. I did not. 18 0. Did he resign? 19 A. He did. 20 0. whv? 21 A. To the best of my recollection, he had
22
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o.
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Page 57
disagreed with me at the tme that I had made Father Wehmeyer pastor of Blessed Sacrament and St. Thomas the Apostle parishes and he felt that when the MPR story came out on the
04108/2OL4 07:53:37 AM
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to 60 of 202
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28th of September, that that reflected poorly on himself and he felt that he had to resign because of it. Did you ask him to resign? I did not.
Do you hold him responsible for the failures
O.
Did you feel bad for Laird and consider him to have been a victim?
2
3
4
5 6 7
him a victim, but I felt badly that he felt he had to resign, yes.
There was an audio recording made of a meeting you had with priests and reported by MPR where
I
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eA.
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No
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12
A. I don't recall. I
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14
A.
be talking
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remember the event and I -I spoke positively about Father Laird and the contributions he had made to the archdiocese
l5
16 0.
17 18
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18
A.
the
MPR story
resignation?
MR, HAWS: Well, objection' That's
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21
A. I did not. A. Did you hear about that? A. I heard that they -- I heard that that was -surreptitiously and secretly that that recording was made, but I didn't listen to it.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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22 23
instruct me.
MR. HAWS:
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Did you discipline anybody or investigate anybody for having made such a recording?
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statement.
MR, ANDERSON: Just stoP. I'll
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rephrase.
BY MR, ANDERSON:
sQ. Did the MPR story trigger Laird's resignation? eA. I believe t dd. l0 a. Okay, What was it that caused -- in the MPR
11
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A. A. O.
The recording.
12
13
A.
14
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Well, I -- we didn't talk about that specifically, so you'd have to talk to him about that. But my recollection is that he said -- he used the expression, "I'm being painted with the same brush you are"' And he said, "I need to resign to maintain my integrity." o. I'm sorry, I wasn't able -- there was pounding, I didn't hear what you said he said'
Could you repeat that?
12
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There were only probably nine people, ten people in the room, but if I were to guess, would just be a guess as to who it was. Okay. Don't need You to guess' ArchbishoP, I'd like to ask You about Father Gilbert Gustafson' His current
status in the archdiocese is what?
it
A. I believe that
a
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he is retired. He -- he's in our monitoring program and he's living on his own. You're aware that he had been convicted of
criminal sexual conduct?
22
23 24
A.
He used the expression -- he said, "The media is painting us with the same brush, and for my own integrity, I need to resign." I believe
he said.
22 A. I was, yes. 23 0. When did you first become aware of that? 24 A. I think during the -- the last six months. 25 a. Were you aware that he had been at some Point
16 of 51 sheets
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in time, either prior to or after Your installation, working at the archdiocese offices in the tribunal?
diagnosis?
facts.
44. I was not aware of that, no. 5Q. Were you aware that a protest had been done,
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4
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7
conclusion, There's no foundation here, but also a legal conclusion. And I don't think
prior to your installation, at the Chancery about Gustafson's presence as a priest at the
archdiocese?
that the Archbishop is qualified to evaluate who it qualifies under its insurance policies
for disability, counsel,
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I wasn't
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believe -- I believe I -- I learned that in the -- as a result of the Kinsale file review. Were you aware that Father Gustafson, after
some -- after a lawsuit was brought against him by Anne Bonse, who became quite public
used by mental health practitioners and for purposes of establishing disability and the
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about it, was placed on disability and is now receiving disability payments?
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A.
o.
Archbishop,
24. 3Q.
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how to answer how he qualifies under an insurance policy contract, you can answer.
If
4
5
54. I'm aware that there is a -- such a Program. 6Q. What's the name of that comPanY? 7A.. I -- I can't recall right at the -- at the
8
you don't, you can advise that you don't understand or know.
64.
7
I don't understand and I -- I -- I have not had those facts. I'd have to look into the
facts to see where the truth lies.
BY MR. ANDERSON: Well, does it concern you, having heard what you just did, that he was working at Cristo
Rey and allowed to?
sQ.
10
11
A.
C.
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13 A. 14 0.
15
moment. Is that administered effectively by your office -It would be --- at least under the control of? It would be done through our finance office. And are you aware that Gil Gustafson, as we
speak here today, is receiving disability payments every month for the diagnosis of pedophilia?
I
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a.
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,14 a.
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A.
no.
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1s o. Do you know what PedoPhilia is? 20 A. I do. 21 a. Do you think that's appropriate, Archbishop,
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him, Stevens and LaVan and those that we've discussed at least so far, and made sure that you're abiding by the promise of zero tolerance and the safety of the children in this archdiocese? MR. HAWS: There's no evidence, counsel. You've implied that that hasn't -that there's been some violation of zero tolerance and there's no evidence of that, so you r statements again, if theY're -O4108/2OL4 07:53:37 AM
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for him to be getting disability payments for having the diagnosis and having been
established as being a compulsive sexual offender that qualifies him for that
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MR. ANDERSON: If you have an objection, state a legal objection. MR, HAWS:
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I do, counsel.
My
That means other people learning. He couldn't have been in there without other people having known, right, other people under your control?
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A. I don't
speech.
No, Here's my concern, counsel. You are trying to make sound bites
MR. HAWS:
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for yourself and for media by inserting facts that do not exist. And so when you say that and imply that there's some violation when
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a break?
MR. ANDERSON: Sure, if you like. MR. HAWS: Okay. MR. ANDERSON: Thanks, MR, HIBBEN: We're going off the
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there is not, that is unfair and it's inappropriate. So if you want to ask the
archbishop questions about which he knows and can answer, he'll do his
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imply and don't create your facts for a media sound bite.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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your priests, Gil Gustafson, is getting payments for a diagnosis of pedophilia while
he works at Cristo Rey?
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Archbishop, going back to the monitoring program for a moment, today, are there currently any priests on the monitoring
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You're -- you're telling me facts that may or may not be true and I would have to look into that. We just had this Kinsale group, as I mentioned, go through 80O files and they're still in the process of doing that. I suspect that their findings are going to be enlightening for us and we will follow up on whatever they -- they have come up with. (Discussion out of the hearing of the court reporter)
BY MR, ANDERSON:
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program?
Yes.
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you made to the people and the zero tolerance policy to have allowed LaVan to have worked in
a parish?
12 A. 13 0. 14 A.
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A. O. A. O. A.
I didn't know he was working in parishes. He was retired, and so he shouldn't have been working in the parish.
You learned he was, though, didn't you?
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Well, living members who are on our website. You're talking about the 36 that are living -The --- that are still priests? Thirty-six, that would be -- yes. Did you say six or 36? Thirty-six, I think. That's my recollection, anyhow. So is it your testimony that if they're still a priest and still alive, but on the list of
credibly accused as reported on the website, which is 36 in number, they are on the POMS monitoring program? My understanding is yes, although they have been taken out of ministry and they've had
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Just recently f've |earned. So it was a violation, wasn't it? Well, we took him out of ministry as soon as we learned.
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not on that list currentlY? Yes, there would be because the -- the
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monitoring program includes those who have abused children, but also includes others who have not abused children, but who have maybe had a drinking problem or a problem with a -an adult, some -- some form of bad behavior.
Are there any that are on monitoring
MR. HAWS: You've made Your record that's wrong and there's no evidence of child
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pornography. And so let's be clear, when you try to assert your facts, they're different maybe than the real facts. Ask the proper
questions.
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and
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Yes, there would be. Has that been made public and known to any of
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say that it was -- it was submitted to the St. Paul Police Department twice and twice they said they didn't find child pornography.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
Was everything in possession of the archdiocese files turned over to the police for their investigation at the time they were doing that?
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turned over to the police? Yes, that was Part of the file' Was the report done by Johnson, the forensic
report?
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believe that was part of the file. We turned everythin g over in those three filest
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2Q. 34.
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Personally, I -- I've -- I've read an awful lot about that. The files themselves I have not gone through.
Okay. We'll go through that a little later. Have you told the parishioners and the public the names of all the priests in the POMS
program?
to mind. That's the case that comes to mind as the most recent.
No one comes Any cases that you know of where sexual misconduct was involved and it wasn't
disclosed to the public and the parishioners as to why the priest was taking a leave or a
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sabbatical or resigning?
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Well --
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Well, there would be, as you stated before, the -- the number that have been removed from ministry and that would be known to the public. I'm not sure that those -- and so my answer would be that everyone who has an allegation of child sexual abuse would be known to the public.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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I mean, the parishioners weren't told that he had been in possession of child pornography?
That's -- that's true.
And they weren't told and the public was never
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20 a.
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even alefted until October of this last year when you made that Public, were theY?
I'm asking broader than that. I'm talking about everybody in the program. Have the
parishioners and the public been informed of all the priests who are in the POMS program
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you've --
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I can't say for sure. My impression is that they have been made known, they have been disclosed. I get the impression that a lot of the
been, but
responsibility for the safety of the parishioners and the public is delegated by you to folks. Is that a fair characterization
A. O.
Yes.
Do you have a practice that if an allegation
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is being investigated by the police, that you do not take action as to that priest because
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or not?
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Well, I'm -- I -- typically I'm a hands-on person and -- but I have to delegate responsibilities, yes.
You have been described by various people at
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-- he
can
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various times, priests included, both in New Ulm and in the archdiocese, as a micro manager in terms of your management style, Would you
say that's a fair characterization?
correct,
MR. HAWS: He can answer and tell
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you why, So you can finish, Archbishop. MR, FINNEGAN: He can ask him whY'
MR, HAWS: He can finish his
17 A. No. I don't think so. 18 0. You would say a hands-on manager is a fair
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Correct.
Do you feel you have taken a hands-on approach
O. A. O.
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Is your answer no? ould you repeat the question, please? I'm a little confused right now.
Do you have a practice that if a priest is
to sexual abuse of prests -- excuse me, sexual abuse of minors by priests in this
archdiocese?
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being investigated by the police for child sexual abuse, that you do not take any public
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2Q.
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Yes,
believe so.
What action, besides the POMS program that you've talked about, demonstrates your hands-on approach to sexual abuse by priests in this archdiocese?
2 3
action as to that priest because you believe to do so would suggest the guilt of the
priest?
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No, sir.
Have you ever expressed that view to any of
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Well, the whole VIRTUS program that we have that assures us that people are being -- that people are receiving background checks, they're given training in terms of what to look for, signs. We've had clergy study days in which we've discussed all these related
issues.
those who occupy positions as officials in the archdiocese, such as your current chancellors or your former chancellors or your auxiliary bishops or vicar generals?
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He would be on the POMS Program. And besides those -- and that would be for sexual misconduct pertaining to minors,
correct?
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Did you ever express that view or practice or the desire to employ such a practice to Jennifer Haselberger?
MR. HAWS: I'm sorrY, what view or practice?
BY MR, ANDERSON:
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was an allegation. That allegation is being investigated now and so I can't say definitively that it was. a. When you say "being investigated," is that by
the police?
It
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a.
The view that you would take no action concerning a priest while there's a police
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nvestigation.
A.
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from ministry.
But do you say why?
When the incident -- prior to my time, so I can't give you a date, but it was on' my understanding, two -- two occasions that that
4Q. 54. It depends on the case. 6Q. Okay. And do you also choose
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people in the pews in the parishes and the public because you don't want the suggestion of guilt of the priest to have been made by
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that disclosure? Well, by the very fact that the priest is removed from the public ministry is a signal
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misstating facts.
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to the people that something's wrong, but we don't -- we haven't done our investigation.
A. I don't
a.
Well, Father Jon Shelley went on sabbatical and he told everybody he went on sabbatical, right? He did,
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know when that happened, I don't have a recollection of that. I -- I do know that on two occasonsr that computer was taken to the Police, but on two occasions it was also said that it wasn't child pornography.
BY MR, ANDERSON:
Did you ever, while the archbishop here, tell anyone to report Shelley to the police?
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believe, yes. your -- with your permission under o. That was that he told everybodY that, right? A. That's true, he was on sabbatical. 0. But the fact of the matter was that it had
been discovered that he had been in possession
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a. A. O. A.
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Did
I?
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That's true.
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The -- he was in pornography, but he was never possession of accused of a crime. Is it your belief that for him to be guilty of the crime of sexual abuse or possession of
child pornography, he has to be charged with
moment.
And when he took that leave, he told the people that he was going on sabbatical, did he not?
5Q.
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Yes, he did.
And a party was held?
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it by the law enforcement authorities? Our standard practice is that when we receive an allegation or we have reason to believe that there has been a violation, we turn that matter over to the police immediately, which is what we did in his case.
And then if the police do not charge, is it,
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to police?
What
14 A. I don't know that I did' no. 15 0. You say you don't know that you did'
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Well,
I don't
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We would do our own investigation after that. And -(Discussion out of the hearing of
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done that. So you don't recall ever having told anybody or instructed anybody to report to the police
or having done it yourself, correct?
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My understanding is that there was a question on the part of my canonical chancellor as to the matter to the -- of the computer, and my
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Correct.
She urged you, because they were borderline
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I am.
She was urging you to report to the police,
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and you couldn't make the determination and by looking at them you couldn't make the determination and didn't, that it should go to the police, correct?
wasn't she?
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she was working in our priests'work group and the topic came uP and mY understanding was that Father Laird had
I thought
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She --
that.
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O. What did she say? A. I don't recall. O. When did you view those images, Archbishop? A. I -- I don't recall the exact date. I -- I'm
trying to think, but I -- I can't recall the exact time.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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No.
Never wrote such a letter?
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No. The letter was drafted by Jennifer Haselberger, but when I read t, I dd further investigation, realized that this was not correct and the letter was never sent.
Yes.
yourself couldn't tell on viewing those images whether it was adolescents or adults, did you report that to the Police?
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24 0. And did you look at the images? 25 A. I did, she showed me some images,
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And you're aware as a mandatory repoer that 88
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to you and showed to You were child pornography or borderline child pornography and should have been reported to the police,
correct?
34. 4Q.
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Correct.
And you're also aware that pornographic images
images and
I could not
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A. I A. It was, yes. 10 O. Yeah. And so she urged you to turn that over
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tell whether they were adolescents or older. It was a close call, wasn't it?
Correct. I was not able to determine that that was child pornograPhY.
Why do you think we have reporting statutes?
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determination, didn't she? She may have, but it had already been turned over to the police depament and the verdict had come back that it wasn't child
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pornography.
You're talking about in 2004?
determination?
O. 18 A. l9 O.
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17 A. I believe it was Father McDonough. 18 0. When did he tell you that? How soon before
It had l9
you viewed those images?
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had been given to the st. Paul Police Department and the police department had said
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1Q.
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Jennifer Haselberger was telling you that she believed them to have been child abuse and, in
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worked on the computer' and he indicated that everything had been encrypted into those files.
What person are you referring to?
54.
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4Q. 54.
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true.
Yes. And Kevin McDonough also had viewed
those images, correct? To the best of my recollection, had.
7Q.
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I think
he
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Well, I can't say for sure that he expressed this to me, but I know that from others that he believed that they were not child pornography.
Did McDonough tell you he had reported it to
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A.
Subsequent to that -- to -- to my seeing the images, Jennifer took that to the St. Paul Police Depament and they had -- they were given all the materials over again. You did not instruct lennifer to make that
report, did you?
the police? A.
He told me that the -- that in 2OO4 that the
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computer and everything on it and the -- the disks had been reported to the polce, yes.
So you were relying on McDonough's
a.
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to report?
Yes.
When was that that Laird told you that he had
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representation to you in 2000 -- I think it's '12, that it had been repoed back to the
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2
I think it was in two -- 2OL2. I can't -can't give you an exact date.
34. 4Q.
5
Yes. Did you ever learn if it actually had been reported to the police in
2OO4?
3Q. Did Father Laird view the images? 44. I don't -- I can't say for sure. 5Q. Then why was Laird involved in this
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64. 7Q.
8
Well, yes.
What informs you that in fact the police had received a report concerning these images in
2004? I 10 A. See, there was a record. 11 a. A record in the file? 12 A, Yes. 13 0. Prepared by whom? 14 A. I can't tell -- answer that.
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When the whole matter was brought up about whether or not the whole file had been turned over, there was some discrepancy there,
Well, because we had a -- what we called a priest working grouP that Father Laird started when he came on board as the moderator of the curia, they would meet twice a month and they would review any misbehavior on the pa of any of the priests or deacons and they would dscuss this among themselves. There would be the canoncal chancellor there, the civil chancellor, the moderator and the delegate for safe environments, so that everyone had a complete picture of what was going on. And it was at one of those meetings that this question of the Shelley files came upr and t's my understanding that Father Laird indicated to Jennifer that she should take
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Jennifer believed that the whole file hadn't been turned over. Subsequently when we did an investigation with the -- the person who
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No.
Did you disagree with Jennifer Haselberger on
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It would
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a.
to believe they actually did? Well, they were the ones that had the responsibility, so I -- I guess I am
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speculating.
So you're assuming that, aren't You?
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suspect, thinking back on it, that I told her that it had already been submitted to the police and that, having received an answer from them on their opinion of what was on the
11 a.
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trust I have in the people who were tellng me that they had already done it.
On the
So because you trust them and because you know
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-- on the file, that it was not necessary to take it to the police a second time.
And when you told her that, she told you in
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that this information was possessed in 2004, you're assuming they made a repoft as required by the law in 20O4, is that correct?
MR. HAWS: Well, again, counsel
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I'm asking if
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23 A. I don't recall that, no. 24 0. Did you instruct her to leave it alone? 25 A. She asked my opinion. I told herr "I cannot
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make a judgment here. This has already been looked at by the police. It doesn't seem to be reasonable that we would take it back to
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told by her that, in fact, the police had not examined this earlier, only internal archdiocese officials and their consultant had
reviewed it?
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lecture.
MR. HAWS:
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improper, That's not what the law allows. Now, he's already told you that someone told
him that and you've asked him five times at least the same question. So if you want to
ask another question in a proper way that has
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me if I reviewed the file with that purpose in mind, no' I did not.
If you're asking
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information in it that asks him what the facts are as opposed to your facts, that's fine.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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Today you can't tell me who made the report, can you?
22 A. St. Paul Police Department. 23 a. And what date do you believe that was made? 24 A. I think you indicated in 20O4. 25 0. Who at the archdiocese made such a report, in
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with reasonable certitude, but cannot tell you for sure. Okay. So who made the report with reasonable
can tell you ceftitude?
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Father
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-- I believe -had been done there were three files that by the forensic persons had been taken to the
He explained that the three files
apparently in 2OO4.
The question is when do you know with reasonable certitude the report was made' No.
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O. Anything else? 7 A. No. I O. Did you inquire further? I A. I don't believe I dd, but I -- I don't have a
recollection of having asked that.
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When you, yourself, reviewed those images and had the concerns as you've expressed it,
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To the --
To
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a. Who at the St, Paul Police Department? A. I have no idea. That was before my time. A. And on what do you base your answers using the
term "reasonable certitude" that the report
no.
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A. O.
was made? On what do You base that? On the trust and confidence that I have in the people who were working for me.
Have you ever seen a record that demonstrates
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O. What date had he been taken out of ministry? A. I can't recall that, O. How long after, then, according to your
belief, was it -- well, what was the time differential between his resignation or sabbatical in ministry and you having viewed those images?
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A. I did not see a receipt, no. I was told that there was one and I had no reason not to
believe it,
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for six months and then he was put on a leave of absence, and so it probably would have been about eight
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1Q. And, again, who told you that? 2A.. I believe that would have been
3
Mr.
O. A.
months, I think. That's my best guess. Okay. I want to go for a moment to -(Discussion off the record)
BY MR. ANDERSON:
Eisenzimmer.
And when did he tell you that?
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When the whole matter came up again in 2OL2. And have you reviewed anything since then that demonstrates that not to have been the case? No. I have not.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
-- Jeff Gallatin, I had begun to ask you -MR. HAWS: I'm sorrY, let me just interrupt real quickly, Anything with respect
to Shelley, starting with the Shelley
questioning till now when you switched gears
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to be put under seal and noted as under seal pursuant to -is MR. ANDERSON: No, it's not.
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Shelley's been a public matter. I've not used anything that has been turned over here' Shelley came up in the first hearing in October of this last year concerning this very
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had been made -- excuse me, Was there question in 2012, as Shelley was being
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in 2004?
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There was not a question. It was taken as a fact that that had already been turned over to the police and the police had made a decision
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Cl.
on t. And the only fact that was taken from was what Andy Eisenzimmer told you?
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It is noted,
And
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anything that involves Gallatin is the same, but we'll -- that is for the record and we'll have to address that with the court' And
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raise these issues that we would make that objection and note that to be addressed later,
14. I -- I can't say. 2Q. If you can't say, why did you allow it to be
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I'm just telling you, counsel, that it shouldn't be disclosed by you until it's
resolved,
MR. ANDERSON: So far anY question
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when it could have been criminal sexual conduct and described as such?
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There had been -- there had been an investigation into this and there had been a determination made that it was inappropriate boundary violations, that it was not criminal intent.
An investigation by whom?
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that I've asked. Later on, we'll get to that discussion, And I'm now going to Joseph
Gallatin.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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entirety?
23 A. I can't say for sure. 24 0. To your knowledge, has any file of any priest
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MR. HAWS:
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it?
MR. ANDERSON: TheY're the ones that
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made the public disclosure that Gallatin -- on December 29th, 2013, That's not under seal. MR. HAWS: Well, counsel, we have
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the ones that are under seal, you're aware which is under seal, I'm not going to fight with you here, It's under seal. And if you violate the court order, you take your risk. But we have said that the ones that are under seal are not to be disclosed publicly until we resolve that with the court. You have to bring your motion for good cause.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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No. Can You quit trying to put words in for your sound bites? That is
MR. HAWS:
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inappropriate, counsel,
MR, ANDERSON: Give me an
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Let's talk, Archbishop, about the public disclosures and representations made to the people about Gallatin on December 29th, 2013. It's correct that the archdiocese admitted that he'd been engaged in inappropriate boundary violations with minors, is that correct?
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appropriate legal objection to it. MR. HAWS: What facts do You have to state that they withheld a request that they provide -- that the archdiocese provide a file to the police?
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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Cl.
I believe so.
Who made the determination that that was not
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We have provided to the police anything they've ever asked for. No. Tell me this, First answer this yes or
2
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that room just a few weeks ago' There's no -no intent whatsoever to withhold information from the police.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
Before a few weeks ago, had you ever told law enforcement about the archival file room where Jennifer Haselberger retrieved the Shelley
no,
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8
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And -- and your question is -MR. HAWS: Whether the ArchbishoP's done that?
MR. ANDERSON: Yes, BY MR, ANDERSON:
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please.
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a.
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file before a few weeks ago? I think they had been informed before that.
By whom?
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21 a.
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Have you ever told any of your subordinates or officials to turn over the files in the possession of the archdiocese to law
My understanding in terms of the Shelley case, t was -- would have been Mr. Eisenzimmer. He was the one that worked closely with the
22
police.
In connection with Mark Wehmann, W-e-h-m-a-n-n, there are some public statements made by the archdiocese and I quote
108
23 a.
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have always made -- maintained that -- that whatever the police ask for, we are cooperative and we give them.
tr
2
3
in a release done by the archdiocese, "There were several incidents of inappropriate conduct with minors involving boundary violations." Who made the determination to
use a descriptor "boundary violations" and
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5
o.
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64. 7Q.
8
don't turn it over unless theY ask? That is correct. What if you get a report from somebody other than the police that a priest has abused? We turn that over to the Police. Yeah, but if the police don't ask, you don't
A. O.
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that it was not criminal sexual conduct? I believe that would have been an internal decision that had been made on that.
Who made that? Dan Griffith, who is
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a.
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turn it over, right? A. No. If we get -- if we had an allegation that was credible, we would turn it over to the police.
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a. A.
And do you know what he based that on or if he interviewed or on what he based such a determination?
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a.
Have you ever told the police that you keep files on each of the priests, both in separate
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Well,
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evidence. Again, your 9ames, counsel' Ask a proper question and then he can answer your
questions,
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There are no secret archives. The files are kept in a -- in a room. We had invited the St. Paul Police DePartment to come in and view
Page 105
O. A. O. Was Gallatin ever reported to law enforcement? A, I have no recollection of that. A. So what qualifications does Dan Griffith have
to determine what's a crime and what's not crime? He's a priest, right?
a
wasn't a question of sexual abuse and it was inappropriate behavior. Was that reported to law enforcement? I don't believe it was, no.
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A. He's a priest, yes. Yes. Has a law degree. O. I mean, a civil law degree, right? A. civil law, yes. A. So what qualifications does he have in child
detection and the criminal investigation of
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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O. A.
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what constitutes a crime involving children and what doesn't? I don't know that I can answer that.
There have been some public disclosures concerning Father Keating and he was either removed from ministry or resigned his position on or about the same day that he was sued. Is
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"we," Who is "we"? Well, it would have -- the information came in to the civil chancellor and the civil chancellor notified another person on our staff, Father McDonough, who was at the time the delegate for safe environment. And he also informed me that Father McDonough and this Deacon Vomastek were being sent over to tell Father -- Father Wehmeyer at the time to leave the premises and to take a leave of
You say
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absence.
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O.
A.
That is my understanding.
MR. HAWS: Before you get into
another one, counsel, I'm sorry, just Wehmann is under seal as is Keating, if you get into
your attention that she believed that Wehmeyer posed a risk of harm to the children in the archdiocese if he was allowed to continue in
ministry?
MR. HAWS: Well, again, you're
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that.
MR, ANDERSON: This is public and
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it
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It's our request it's under seal and we'll take it up later.
MR, HAWS:
BY MR, ANDERSON:
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statement, I don't know. If the archbishop can answer whether that came to his attention, listening to what he asked you, that's fine.
A.
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Jennifer prepared a memo for me prior to the time that I had made him pastor of Blessed Sacrament of St. Thomas the Apostle' pointing
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had been accused of and how it had been handled before Keating got sued and that suit made public?
out that five years previously he had -BY MR. ANDERSON: The question was when now. When did she bring
3Q.
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44.
5 6 7
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I was
5 6 7
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aware that something was going on when I became coadjutor because I knew a relative of the person who was involved in the caser but I didn't know -- I didn't -- wasn't privy to -to the case itself, to all the details of the
case.
Can you think of any priests that have neither
this risk to your attention? MR, HAWS: You're answering and that's fine, Archbishop. Counsel, he can answer your question.
MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, I asked a question of when now. I'm just trying to get
I
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the anchor for the date here. MR. HAWS: And he's providing that.
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I can't tell you the -- the month or the date, but I -- I think it was in 2OO8 prior to my
making him pastor. He was already parochial administrator of Blessed Sacrament and we were talking -BY MR, ANDERSON:
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well, let me put it this way, Can you name for me the priests that actually have been reported by the archdiocese, either you or
somebody at your direction, to law enforcement
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for suspicions of sexual abuse under the mandatory reporting act? MR, HAWS: You're talking about
since he became archbishop?
MR. ANDERSON: YES.
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Right.
And you're saying that it was when Wehmeyer was at what parish? He was parochial administrator of Blessed
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The case of -- the one case under my tenure was the case of -- of Curtis Wehmeyer and we
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1Q.
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It was shortly after I had become archbishop, I became archbishop on the 2nd of May' so I
believe it would have been in the month of June.
And at that time, what did you learn about Wehmeyer's fitness as a priest to continue in ministry and the risk that may be posed by it?
A.
believe that he was on the monitoring program based on that Previous incident. Yeah. I'm looking at some records and I think
that's correct. It looks like he had been on monitoring for four years as of 2009' Does
4
5 6 7
7Q.
8
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11
A. I O. I
that sound right? That sounds right. Okay, Did you become aware, at least in 2009, then, that he'd been in monitoring for
misconduct in 2004 and in 2006 for seeking out sexual encounters with 18-, 19-year-olds?
A.
12 13
The informaton that Jennifer brought to my attenton was that Father Wehmeyer had a samesex attracton, that he had approached two young men in their mid-20s at a book store of some sort and made an advance on them. That was repolted to the -- I think that was five years previously' that was reported to the Chancery and Father Wehmeyer was sent off to a
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rehabilitation program' a clinic, and came back and had a -- I mean, it confirmed the fact that he was same-sex attracted and he was put on the montoring program. He was to do therapy once a month and spiritual direction
once a month. And I obviously didn't see him being same-sex attracted as an indication that he had any interest sexually in young children
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that that's what the Archbishop testified to. You can ask him that. Again, you've inserted your own facts -MR. ANDERSON: I'm asking him if
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knew.
MR. HAWS: Well, how is he
--
he's
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and that he was a pedophile. I had no reason to believe that he was. And I believe that he was fit at that tme to take on these two parishes. There's some indication that in February of
2009, Rourke was his monitor, Do you have
recollection of that?
a
2 3
want to be the facts for whatever reasons. Let's get to what the truth is and ask the
questions that the Archbishop can provide you'
4
5 6 7 8
Try to get to the truth and not made-up facts' MR. ANDERSON: That little sPeech doesn't count on our time. And look at the
documents.
MR. HAWS: You ask him and then he
84.
sQ.
10
I
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that time. Do you recall that? That I signed on? Could you explain that? Did you sign on to monitoring Plans?
For whom, please?
Each of the priests that were being monitored
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In April of 2009, I think you just said that -- well, let me put it this way. In 2009, did you believe that Wehmeyer was fit to continue in ministry without informing any of the
parishioners and the public that he was on the
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a,
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monitoring program?
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Yes, that would have -- that would be true. And when did you place, then, Wehmeyer on the monitorlng program?
22
At that time we didn't -- I -- I don't believe that we had informed the trustees that he was on the monitoring program.
And you didn't inform anybody other than those in the official postion of the archdiocese, so that would be your chancellors, the vicar
23 0.
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believe, and
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BY MR. ANDERSON:
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He did. And he told you that there were questions about his fitness to be in ministry, much less
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a.
A.
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Correct.
In April of 2009, do you recall receiving information from Haselberger about concerns about a change in Wehmeyer's status from being the business administrator to being the
pastor?
o.
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Well, that would -- would have happened, I think, in 2OO8, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, but she raised concern in 2009 to you is my question. Do you remember, you know, you made that decision in 2008? I thought I had. Could have been 2OO9. Okay, Let's assume/ then, that you made the
decision in 2008, do you recall Haselberger bringing the concern to you about why that was
done?
14
15
That's what he told me. I -- he said he had an unstable personality, but Father Laird clearly didn't like Father Wehmeyer and there was a -- I think a bias there. 0. So you thought it was a personality conflict
between Laird and Wehmeyer?
16 A. I thought to a certain extent, yes. 17 0. And so you didn't think about the fact that
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Well, there was no indication that he had interest in -- in sexually abusing children, there was no indication at all.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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A. She brought the concern to me that he -- about the incident that I told you about in the book
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When you read the St. Luke's repo and received the other information you've described at the time you made him pastor and continued him in ministry, did you tell anybody at the parish what you knew about his
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And she also raised with you the concerns about the St. Luke's findings that had been made and in the file, correct?
84.
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You recall that he had been diagnosed with having sexual compulsion or sexual addiction and unable to control his sexuality?
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A. At the time
,12 A. No. I don't remember that at all. 13 0. Did you read the St. Luke's repo?
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believe
I did, yes.
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When?
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When you made him pastor and changed his status from business administrator to pastor, did you know that he was a risk of harm?
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believed that that was the responsibility of Father McDonough. I found out subsequently that he did not inform the trustees, but normally in those situations at that time we would have informed the trustees of the parish. a. So when did you learn that McDonough had not done what -A. I think it was in the last week of September.
o.
Of what year?
A.
20 A. of 2013. 21 0. Did anyone ever tell you or did you ever learn
from review of the file that Curtis Wehmeyer had been restricted from working with youth in
2004?
22 0. 23 A.
24
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A.
No.
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made that
didn't know --
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asseftion today?
A. I had not.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
3Q.
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24.
No. I didn't know he was on monitoring. I said you didn't know that, you didn't know
about the other things, At that time after the DWI, did you call Curtis Wehmeyer and say,
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was after I had made him pastor and it was reported to us, think, through Father McDonough.
And did you also learn that as a part of that arrest relating to the DUI, he had been trying to solicit some young people to a party with
him?
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During that time period, I called him in four times from reports that I had gotten in the parish about his anger management or mismanagement, I would say, but I did't have the knowledge at that time to question him on his -- on any sexual activitY.
Well, you knew about the St. Luke's repod, he was a sexual addict, you knew that?
a.
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But that --
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A. I don't recall that as pa of the DUI. l9 O. What do you recall as a part of the DUI,
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trip and that he went into kind of a 7-11-type place and they noticed that he was unstable in his walk and someone called the police and they came and -- and stopped him from driving and
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either what you were told or learned? I learned that he was on a camping
been five years before and he had been in therapy and he had been in spiritual direction and St. Luke's report indicated that he was
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things not pertaining to his sexuality, why didn't you ask him about his sexual conduct or
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a.
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A.
I was not aware of that. I knew that he was friendly with the Kueppers, so it doesn't
surprise me.
Were you aware that at the time of that he was
Well, those were not things that had been reported to me. There's nothing of a sexual nature that had been reported to me except the St. Luke's remarks and the report of the 2004 incident.
But sometimes the way you get information, Archbishop, is to ask; and why didn't you ask
him?
o.
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still on monitoring?
a.
7Q. I I 10 A. 11 0.
12
Because there was no reason to. The St. Luke's report gave you reason, didn't
it?
any of your -- any of your officials that the report says that he was trying to pick up teenagers to go back to the campground to party?
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A.
14
dd, but that had already been a matter of at least a year and -- that I had received
It
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A.
No, sir.
Having heard that, is that the first time you've heard that?
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o.
a.
A.
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It
does.
that repo -- no. That would -- that would have been in 2OO4. I'm getting confused here. And I had to deal with the situation of what was current in his administration and that happened to be the question of his getting along with staff, his anger mismanagement, those were the -- the topics that were on the
table.
Scerbo was urging you to not continue him in
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o.
A.
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A. I don't believe that, a. Well, then, what was Scerbo concerned about as
expressed to you?
rA.
2Q. 34.
4
No.
It was sexual
issues,
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wasn't it?
canonical affairs. Okay. And when was such a list first compiled
for your eyes?
A. A. A. O. A.
5Q.
6
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about his unftness to be and continue in ministry, if not sexual? Are you talking about Scerbo --
7A.. In October of 2013. 8Q. And how many priests or deacons were on it? 94. My recollection is that there were 36 on the
l0
original list.
And then how many -- that was the original
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I mean, excuse me. Okay. He never mentioned anything to me about his whole sexual nature. His concern primarily, as I recall t, was that he said he didn't think he had a stable personality.
Laird, Did you ever tell anybody to get the 2009 police report that reflects what I just told
11 0.
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A.
Correct.
And then were there any added to that?
Because that list had been compiled originally
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I did not -- I -- I wasn't -- I was aware of the -- the arrest, but I wasn't aware -- aware of the other incident that you iust alluded to.
Did you tell anyone to get the 2009 report?
18 A. 19 0. 20 A.
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2013.
20L3.
There were subsequently another nine that were added to the lst.
Any of those now on the credibly accused publicly disclosed?
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A.
A.
Sure,
a police
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report.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
O. A. O. A.
function as a priest.
Did you ever see any lists of priests accused of sexual abuse of minors before October of 2013?
4
5 6 7 8
4
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A.
No.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
I A.
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11
When was the first time I asked that that -- I believe it would have been in October when we were making our plans to do disclosure.
I I
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O.
Did you ever ask anybody to compile one or prepare one or give you one?
12
O. You're talking about October of -l3 A. 2013. 14 O. And who did you ask to do that? l5 A. It would have been the members
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of the staff,
the canoncal chancellor, the civil chancellor and the delegate for safe environment'
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A. O. A. O. A.
O. A. O. A. a,
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Certainly is. It's my primary goal' to make sure that children are safe.
Well, then, why wouldn't you make making sure
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I'm talking about Father Dan Griffith, talking about Joe Kueppers, I'm talking about Susan Wilhern.
susan who?
you get all the information possible from all those under your charge about --
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could
wilhern,
She's a secretary to the vicar general?
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before,
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wth Father McDonough and others when I first became coadjutor archbishop. I knew that they were under the monitoring system and I felt that they were not putting children at risk. But that was back in 2008. We're now in 2013.
Why hadn't you done more before?
6Q.
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7A.. I
9
Well,
I think we
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we've done the VIRTUS program' we've done background checks on everyone, we've had seminars and programs for our clergy and for our staff, So we -- it isn't -- isn't as if we weren't working on this. And, as I've said before, that our number one priority is to make sure the children are safe.
When you got the compilation in 2013 in
I mean, as I indicated'
difference between disclosing names to the public and turning over files concerning those
names to law enforcement, correct?
sA.
10
11
0.
There would be a difference, yes. Okay. Let's talk about those two things' You're saying you turned over the names to the
public, right? Yes.
Yes?
12
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13 A. 14 0. 15 A. 16 0.
17
Yes.
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A.
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19 A. I can't answer that. I'm sorry. 20 0. Can you answer that any were? 21 A. No. 22 0. Is it correct to say that no file had ever
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To my knowledge, we did
been turned over after termination had been made and a prest was credibly accused to law
out of ministry'
Yeah, but they may have been guilty of crimes,
130
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right?
2A..
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That could be, And so I believe some of them would have been -- already been turned over to
2
3
MR. HAWS: Object to foundation' Are you talking about while he's been the archbishop?
MR. ANDERSON: YCS.
the police.
But you don't know which ones, do You?
4
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11
5Q. 64. I don't. 7Q. Because you made a conscious choice to not turn them all over, correct? I MR. HAWS: Well, objection, counsel. I
10 1rl 12 13
A. I don't recall.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
A.
you have no recollection of ever having voluntarily said, "Look it, we just looked at this file and made a determination internally
If
anyone has ever asked, you can ask did anyone ever ask you that you've not turned over a
12 13 14 15
that this is a credible allegation. Let's just turn it over to law enforcement, whether it's Chisago County, Washington County, Ramsey County, Hennepin County, let's just do that
voluntarily without a request"? As far as you can tell or remember, you've never made that
decision?
14
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Archbishop, the question was, you made the conscious choice to not turn all the files over to law enforcement, correct? I don't believe it was a conscious decision.
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A. O. A, O. A.
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No. I think that there were cases that were turned over to the police in -- in Decemberr I believe with Father Gallatin -Okay. Now we're talking about December of -2013.
23 0.
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-- 2013? okay. Anybody else? There were three, but I can't think of the
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other two.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
quinquennial report?
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5Q.
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eA. I think it was the St. Paul Police -- Police Department. 10 11 0. Had they requested or did you do that on your
12
7Q.
t0
sA.
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A.
wanna say, 2O1O, but I'm not sure about that and so I just don't have that recollection right now. Did you report Shelley to the C,D.F'? I don't recall. Isn't that something you would recall if you
had?
11
12
own initiative?
It should
be,
did.
13 0.
14
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ever ordering any files to be turned over without request by law enforcement?
l5
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A.
having been reported by you or your offices to the C.D,F. under the SST requirement? AII that we were required to would have been
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A.
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21 0.
22
c.D,F.?
believe Montero.
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And I believe there was another priest by the name of -- of Bussman, so there have been
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finish this, that's fine, but it's -MR. ANDERSON: That's fine. MR, HAWSI We've been going an hour-and-a-half, MR, HIBBEN: We're going off the
record at 12:15.
(Recess taken) MR. HIBBEN: This is video number 3
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o.
A.
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Montero, I think, although that may not be it because he wasn't our prest, so I -- I -- I'm not sure about that one.
When was WehmeYer?
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in the deposition of Archbishop John Nienstedt taken on April 2nd, 2014. Time now is 1:04 p.m.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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o.
A. A.
Before
No,
I -- my arrival
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not have been dorie by you?
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o. -- it would
It probably wasn't
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A.
because he wasn't our priest. He belonged to another diocese. Under the SST issued in 2001, you're required
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Archbishop, before the break I had begun to ask about Joseph Wajda, and did you become aware that Rome had conducted a canonical trial, a penal trial of him and findings had
been made?
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o.
A. I -- I do recollect that, Yes. o. Did you become aware that it was -- the instruction was to remove him from the
clerical state?
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A. Yes.
o.
22 A. I don't recall that particular part of it' 23 0. Did you become aware that at some point in
24 25
A. Yes.
Page 133
time, the instruction from Rome was reinvestigated by your office or at your
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64. It must have been, yes. 7Q. Are you aware that McDonough did reinvestigate Wajda after the Rome instruction I and made the recommendation that Wajda be I
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That's just a correction for today. Okay. Thank you. Archbishop, you have made number of statements to the public and the parishioners that the primary goal is to care
for those abused by priests and made promises to the people that that is one of your goals,
is it not? did you not, to
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A. I'm not familiar with that at all. C. At this point in time, what are your plans pertaining to Joseph Wajda? Is he going to be 14 allowed to continue in ministry or is he going 15 to be reinstated? t6 17 A. He's -- my understanding is he's not to be functioning in -- in ministry at all. 18 o. Did you become aware that there was some controversy around McDonough's findings that 20 contradicted those of Rome? 21 22 A. That must have been before mY time.
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permit the taxation of costs against Jim Keenan, who had litigated against the archdiocese and have a judgment entered against him for $64,000 for having brought that case, Do you consider that to be
consistent with a promise to care for the victims?
le
20 A. I'm not familiar with that case. 21 0. It is John Doe 76C and it was the one that
22
23 0. 24 A.
25
Okay.
Could -- could I make a correction? I was told by my counsel that I was confused about
138
23 A. And what -- what year was that? 24 a. 2010, I think. 25 A. I -- I -- it's not registering with me' I'm
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eQ.
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the 2OO4 investigation of the Shelley computer. Apparently' we turned that over to this Mr. Setter, who was a retired police officer. That's why I thought he had been turned over to the police. And then that was turned over to the forensics, so I got that mixed up. I thought it went to forensic first and then to the police. Well, Setter, yeah, Setter, S-u-t-t-e-r (ph) -- S-e-t-t-e-r, is an investigator hired by
the archdiocese, You're aware of that?
Yes. All right,
sorry.
Are you aware that the statute of limitations had -- the Supreme Court had determined the
2Q.
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statute of limitations had expired and, therefore, his claim and others like it could not be brought? Did you learn that at some
point?
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epresentatives
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20 A. No. 21 0. Is that correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 0. Okay. 24 A. I apologize for that. 25 0. Were you relying on that same mistaken belief
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of the officials had called the mother of one of the children who had been taken on camping trips to discuss that relationship? A.
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that call?
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It was
Father Paul Scerbo, who was at -- had iust been pointed the vicar general and moderator of the Curia.
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So he was empowered to handle this on your behalf, correct? He was. And so when you learned on October 13th, then,
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In the case of Curtis Wehmeyer, when did you first learn definitively that he had been
accused of or suspicions arose that minors
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were involved?
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I -- I don't remember'
BY MR. ANDERSON:
5Q.
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6Q. Okay. 74. I beteve it was a Friday' though, I do remember that. I eQ. Some records show that his arrest was June
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Okay. So I want to get my dates correct. I think you had told me earlier that the date
you first learned that minors were involved was the date that he was arrested and some records show that he was arrested on the 22nd.
Does
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that date and from
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whom?
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That day,
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learned from,
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Eisenzimmer, that Father McDonough had been informed of the allegaton and that he and Deacon Vomastek were going over to Blessed Sacrament to tell Father Wehmeyer at the time that he was being removed from his assignment.
Mr. Eisenzimmer told me that they were -Father McDonough and Deacon Vomastek wanted to
go over there,
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away.
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And that was before it was reported to the police, though, wasn't it?
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I think t was reported at the same time. I think they were simultaneous.
Why would you want Father McDonough and Deacon Vomastek to go to Curtis Wehmeyer before it
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No.
had not.
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impoftant.
The statute provides an obligation, not an
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Well, in hindsight, I -- that was a mistake, but I think we wanted to act immediately on the information that we had.
And you're aware that Father McDonough and
Deacon Vomastek met with Wehmeyer that morning
2Q.
3
authority, correct?
44.
5 6 7 8 9
I believe so.
MR. HAWS: Objection, it's a legal
5Q.
6
at the parish?
conclusion. Statute speaks for itself. (Discussion out of the hearing of the court reporter)
BY MR. ANDERSON:
84. I think t was mornng or afternoon' t was -eQ. And you're aware that they retrieved the gun
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What did Eisenzimmer tell you about when the archdiocese had first gotten a report when he talked to you? He told me Yes. All right. Let me show you Exhibit 18.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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that that's facts in evidence, counsel. Again, if you've got something to show him that, ask him.
BY MR, ANDERSON:
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that morning.
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And before I do, let me just ask you, Archbishop, what did you find out specifically about who had made the report, then, about Wehmeyer to law enforcement and when?
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Yes.
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heard of that, so -I'm going to show you Exhibit -(Discussion out of the hearing of
or to the archdiocese?
MR. ANDERSON: To
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the archdiocese.
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spoke to anyone
o.
Who is the first in the archdiocese, then, to have received the information that minors were
involved?
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A.
My presumpton was that the one that would normally do the reporting is the civil
le
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chancellor. And so my understanding was that he was gong to report it and -- and had already reported it, had called the police.
15 a. And what were you told about that? 16 A. I was told that he was informed of that, that
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statute that applies to you permits the delegation of your responsibility to somebody
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but I believe that as long as t's -- that thngs are done correctly, that that's what's
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Father Erickson was the frst one' I believe' to have been told of -- of the abuse because the -- the mother in question had discovered
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some ncest n the family and she had subsequently, in talking to her children about that, discovered an involvement of Father Wehmeyer. And she went back and told Father John Paul Erickson again and -- but it was in the context of spiritual direction, so it was a privileged context, so he had to call her and get her to report this to us outside of
A.
o.
Same day that McDonough and Vomastek had gone to visit Wehmeyer at the parish?
4
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A. That is correct. o. I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 18. And you have it before you, Archbishop, and this is
entitled a decree, and it's typewritten with your name at the bottom, correct?
I
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10 a.
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A.
12 0. When did he tell you that? 13 A. I believe that was -- excuse me, I misspoke
myself. I think Andy Eisenzimmer told me the same day of that.
On June 22nd?
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Yes,
Were you told that the report had been made in
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A. Yes, correct.
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the context of the confession? I hadn't been told that it was in the context of confession. What I had been told is that
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Correct.
So this reflects that on June 18th, the
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A. Yes.
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Jennifer Haselberger.
And what makes you say that or believe or assert that it's incorrect?
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report?
Correct.
Have you talked to Father Erickson to get some
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more clarity about what he was actually told and the circumstances of it since?
I have since learned that the information didn't come to us officially until the morning of the 22nd.
Because
Well, mandatory reporting doesn't make a distinction between official and unofficial'
So what do you mean by "official"? MR, HAWS: Again, objection to the
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Why not?
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Well, in -- in hindsight, I suppose he should have taken this to the police himself once he had clarified the context of which the communication had taken Place. o. And do you have any knowledge that he did? A. I do not have. o. And your knowledge to this date as to who
actually made a report to the police, then, is limited to -- who is that to?
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What
mean by "official" is the -- the context in which it was first revealed was a
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context that was privileged, and so what I refer to as privileged is the part that's not privileged. 0. Okay. It goes on to say at the third
paragraph, "Since my other duties prevent me from conducting this investigation personally,
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Laird, Vicar
A.
To Mr. Eisenzimmer.
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Correct.
And then you also, at the fourth paragraph, instructed that in conducting his
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I -- is -- is a rather
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Correct.
Is there anything in this decree that talks about protecting the victim or their family? The decree, to my understanding, is a
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All right, You're not sure about the dates' are you?
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canonical document that pertains particularly to a priest who has acted out badlY.
MR. HAWS: The bottom ParagraPh
11 A. I'm sure that these dates are wrong. 12 0. And what document is there that establishes,
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other than this document, this decree, exactly when you learned, then, of the abuse of the
minor? MR. HAWS:
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(Indicating),
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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Did you sign the decree before Vomastek and McDonough went to the parish?
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all, the decree, Exhibit 18, does not establish that, as the archbishop said. But
go ahead as to whatever,
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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A. Well, I couldn't have signed it on the 2oth, so the -- the dates here are wrong. a. Well, that's where we're going to go right now, It says, "Given on June 20th, 2012," and
then it's signed by you.
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The question is, is when did you first -- what document is there, if there is one, that can establish the date you learned it?
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Correct.
So you're now asserting that that date is also
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incorrect?
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orrect.
And you're assefting that's incorrect on what
basis?
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On the basis that, subsequently, I found out that I dd -- I learned this on the 22nd, so I couldn't have signed t on the 20th. This is a pretty serious matter when it's your
decree for an internal investigation, isn't
it? is your signature, so you did
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A. rt was in person. O. At the chancery? A. At the chancery, yes. O. And in his office or yours? A. My office, he came down to my office. O. Anybody else present? A. No. O. Did you make any notes of that conversation? A. r did not. O. Has there been any record made by him of that
conversation?
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A. I don't know that. O. Has there been made any record by anybody that
you know of, in or out of the archdiocese, that establishes that the report was actually received by you on the 22nd versus Exhibit 18,
which seems to demonstrate the 18th?
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Ri9ht.
So you did order an internal investigation.
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Did you order this internal investigation before or after the report to the police was
made?
A. I don't know of any other document, no. a. There is evidence that on the 19th, there was
-- or 20th, there was a meeting called by Greta Sawyer and she was employed to interview this mom and child, Were you aware of that? r was, yes.
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know.
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A. I don't believe that was the right order. O. Well, you decreed an investigation and Laird
was given the authority to do it?
My understanding is that it was Father Erickson that had advised the woman to go to see Greta Sawyer and to -- and
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A. A. A.
That's correct.
And he was given the authority to give to her to interview these people, right?
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a.
That I don't remember. I -- my -- my understanding is that she -- that the mother had been advised to go to see Greta to reveal this allegation. Right. Been advised by either Erickson or
Laird, correct?
8Q. Did Greta Sawyer tell you about the meeting I before it happened? 10 A. No. She did not. 11 0. Did Laird tell you that they were going to
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A. I think it was Father Erickson. O. Right. l8 A. Yes. 19 O. And so she did and she brought the child at
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16 0. So you didn't know there was going to be? 17 A. I did not know. 18 a. On the 2lst of June, there's an indication of
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a meeting in the morning between Haselberger, Laird and Eisenzimmer. Are you aware of that?
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A. O.
21 A. No. 22 a. That's news to you? 23 A. It is. 24 0. Have you looked at any of the documentation
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That is news to me. My understanding was that the mother went and I dd -- until now I had not heard that she brought the child with her.
The child was interviewed, according to the
records that we have, at one of the Chancery offices on the 20th by Greta Sawyer and tape
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litigation hold was placed and there was an instruction given by Andy Eisenzimmer on that
day to not destroy any files or evidence. Are you aware of that?
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I'm not,
no.
of?
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A.
Well, my understanding of the sequence of things all revolves around this privileged context, and I -- my understanding was that Father Erickson had suggested, because he didn't feel he could break the confidentiality of the conversation, that she should go to see Greta Sawyer.
Well, the interview done by Greta Sawyer was done at your offices at the Hayden Center?
12 A. No. 13 0. That you know of? 14 A. No. I do not. 15 a. Why would he give such an instruction
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hadn't been a practice in play before --
if that
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have no -know?
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a. -- do you
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have no idea. It was not our practice. a. After you, then, first met with Eisenzimmer and learned what you claim to have learned,
what was the next thing you did or what did you do responsive to the information you
received?
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me we
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should do as the next steps, which was to inform the law -- legal -- I mean, the -- the police and then to inform Father Wehmeyer of the accusation.
And it's your belief you prepared the decree,
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A. O. A.
Correct.
And --
That
right?
I can recall,
yes.
5Q.
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That's my recollection, yes. I didn't prepare it. Iennifer Haselberger prepared it.
But you signed it?
that
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11 0. 12 A. 13 a.
,14 A. 15 a.
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meetings with your top officials at that time, Haselberger, Laird, Eisenzimmer, about whether
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A. I read it, but I wasn't paying attention to the -- the dates per se. I was looking at the content of the -- the statement. a. In the first paragraph you are reciting when
you received the information and you used both a quote and an "I," don't you?
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A. I don't recall any discussions on that at that tme. I know that there were discussions of
that subsequently when it was reported in the newspaper, but at that tme I don't recall any discussion of that.
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22 A. Yes. 23 a. You read that, didn't you? 24 A. r dd. 25 0. Okay. When's the next tme you received any
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subsequently? What was said and by whom? When -- there -- there was a sequence of discussions that took place, I believe, in
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Well, I had asked, as the document indicates, I asked for a regular repott from Father Laird, and so that would have been given to me, generally speaking, at our weekly meetings, which is on Tuesday mornings.
(Discussion out of the hearing of
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early October of 2O13 about what the -- the dates were and how the sequence fell out. And there was a great deal of confusion about that. Of course, Jennifer had already left our employ at that point, so we weren't able to ask her about the confusion of the dates. Who have you asked about it to try to clear
it?
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We talked about it in terms of my staff at the time, it would have been Mr. Kueppers and
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Was that after the arrest? Yes, it would have been after the arrest. (Discussion out of the hearing of
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I believe our communications director. we were trying to figure out the sequence of how that all
Susan Mulheron and happened.
And you're talking about Jim Accurso?
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information you had and the only source of that information before the arrest of Wehmeyer was that told you by Andy Eisenzimmer and
nothing else --
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He was not involved in the -Who was the communications director then?
Sarah Mealey.
So, really, discussions were more about communications management and crisis management than trying to get to the bottom of really what happened?
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Correct.
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A.
No. No.
MR. HAWS: Objection, that's
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have my memory and my memory doesn't correspond to what you're telling me she has said. (Discussion out of the hearing of
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discussions. But that's for purposes of public relations, I'm interested in what you did about
protecting the children and making sure you adhere to the law. Why did you bring the
communications person into that conversation?
I think we need to
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Well, because this was subsequent, this was in October 2O13 is what I'm saying, but when I first discussed it after the event had taken place, we acted immediately to inform the police and to make sure that he was taken off of the premises so that he couldn't be a threat to the -- to the -- the children.
You have made and your office has made a
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the transcription record and not used for purposes of time. We just took a break
because we were posed with the dilemma of the
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time limitation and the fact that the archbishop began the last segment with a correction to his earlier testimony concerning Shelley, and he began it with a correction by stating that a report, he believed, had been made to law enforcement in 2004, he corrected
number of statements that you have acted immediately to inform the police concerning
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Wehmeyer. And do you make those statements to try to assure the people that they can trust what you say about child safety and your reporting of it?
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that by saying that the report had been made to a person working for the archdiocese who
had been in law enforcement earlier' That correction changes the questions that we now
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we would say in any other situation, we would quote our policy and this is the way we -- we act and we let people know that.
Jennifer Haselberger has been very critical of you and the way you handled Wehmeyer, has she
not?
made it, regarding Shelley, So I just had a discussion with counsel about taking more time
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to make sure, using that correction, we ask the questions that need to be asked. And your position on that, counsel, was and is?
MR. HAWS: The archbishoP testified
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her about
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when you asked him the questions, and you did do follow-up questions, and he testified that when you asked specifically, "Does that change any of your testimony that I've asked you
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I haven't talked to
about and how you took actions," his answer was no, only as to today when he said it was
his belief it was a repo to St. Paul Police, but it was a report to what was a retired police officer, That's all that it changed. It changed nothing else and he told you that'
MR. ANDERSON: Well,
14 0.
And she has reported very publicly that you did not report when you learned that Wehmeyer had abused?
,17 A. Well, she's -- she's inaccurate on that. l8 She's not correct. 1e a. And as a canon lawyer, she's your record
20
it may not
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change how he answers some of the questions' but those are questions that haven't been asked and the questions that now need to be asked are very different than those that were asked pre-correction. So if you're not going
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She should be. And you have no records today, nor are you aware of any, that contradict the assertions she has about what you told her and when it
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to give the time, just state it on the record' MR. HAWS: You have 20 minutes' You
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can ask whatever questions you want. MR. ANDERSON: Wait a minute. Well, I just want to see if you're going to agree to the additional time by reason of the
2 3
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O.
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6
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correction or not. And I think it's 15 minutes -- there was actually 32 minutes taken on Shelley -- no. There was actually 32 minutes remaining, according to our calculation, and, you know, if I can get through it, I just want to know if we're going
I I
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Correct. And pertaining to Shelley in February of 2Ol2? Correct. At that time, at the bottom of the second paragraph, it reflects Shelley was without supervision. Is that your understanding? MR. HAWS: ArchbishoP, just read the document, the entire document -MR. ANDERSON: No' MR. HAWS:
-- so You have it
in
'12
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context.
MR. ANDERSON:
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keeping time on that and excluding your speaking objections, counsel, and so we're
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ask out of context. MR. ANDERSON: Go off the record. Let me -MR. HAWS: Well,
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archbishop. I'm going to assume that you are not affording more time and I'm going to, for purposes of Shelley, given the correction made, I'm going to use the 32 minutes remaining to do the best I can to get through what I can today, knowing that that isn't
feasible.
MR. HAWS: You have the oPPortun
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no'
20
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off the record. He has a right to read the deposition -MR. ANDERSON: No. We're not going to have him reading documents, taking the time on the record, That's intended to delay the
process. MR. HAWS: You want to ask a 172
24
25
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170
1
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to ask whatever additional questions on Shelley to clear up what you need to do now' And, again, the time left is whatever it is' MR. ANDERSON: OkaY. We're going to go back to the video record now. MR. HIBBEN: All right. I just need
one moment, please.
MR. HAWS: What is the actual time,
question about a document that's in front of the archbishop and you want to be unfair and not let him read to see what the context is,
is that your position? MR. FINNEGAN:
4
5 6 7
No. We'lltake
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videographer, of what we've got on the videotape deposition? MR. HIBBEN: I have three hours, 35 minutes and 52 seconds. MR. HAWS: Thank You. MR. HIBBEN: Yes, sir. We're back on the record at 2:03 P.m.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
break and let him read it. MR. HAWS: Well, whY would You take a break? When do you ever do that in a deposition? This is a deposition. Ask your questions.
MR. FINNEGAN: We don't have PeoPle
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I hardlY am trYing to
If questions were
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Archbishop, because you made a correction at the start of the last section concerning Shelley, I'm going to go back and try to get your testimony concerning some of the things that need to be asked, given that correction, that weren't asked because of your testimony given before it. I'm going to show You an Exhibit 38 and it is a memo from you -- excuse me, from
Page 169
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asked properly, it would have been much quicker. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Haws, You're an
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21
am.
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it uP with the judge, but I'll tell you right now, I'm going to read a portion from this and ask you
MR. ANDERSON: We'lltake a question, ArchbishoP
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BY MR. ANDERSON:
1Q.
2
3
2Q.
3
In this memorandum to you, she states, "The reason this was not given more attention in
2008 only became clear recently, For, while there is reference to the misconduct in Father Shelly's green personnel file, the detailed information relating to the misconduct, including the investigator's report, was of 48 restricted files that were archived (meaning moved to the basement, wthout reference to it being placed in the personnel files) in the
There's also reference to the archdiocese ordering an investigation and a computer analysis to be done of the machine' Did you see that yourself?
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54. I did not. 6Q. You were told there were images on there by
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the experts that did the analysis that there was questionable or borderline child
pornography, were you not?
A.
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early months of 2008." Do you remember discussing that with her at that time?
12
13 0.
14
14
15
A.
16 0,
17
(Examining documents) I don't at this moment, I don't recall discussing that with her. She goes on to state, and I'll ask you, "I
have attached a list of files that were moved to the archives, although we have not been able to locate all the files on the list." Were there files moved to the archives,
Archbishop?
there not?
15 A. I think there were questions for Jennifer. 16 0. And you had questions about that? 17 A. r dd.
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0.
And aren't questions the same as suspicions enough to justify a repoft to the police at
that time? A.
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22
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A,
files of active priests are in one, files of priests who have left and priests who are dead would be in another room.
174
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25
rQ.
2 3
And in the same memo at the second page, there's a recitation of various things known about Shelley that -- my question to you as is
O,
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Counsel, can you just tell him where you're reading from?
BY MR. ANDERSON:
11 a.
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At the top. "shelley's personal computer (one of three) was mistakenly donated to a parishioner during the parish garage sale," Do you know what happened to the three
computers?
O. I A. I O. l0 A. 11 O.
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(Examining documents) I only see here one computer -- one of three. 0. Yeah, but I'm talking about there were three
computers, Do you know what happened to those three computers? I know that the one comPuter that they referred to was ultimately turned in by the person who received the donation. He came to
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-- yes,
A.
Well, what
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A.
meant by "outside" was that they weren't people that worked directly for us on our staff.
BY MR. ANDERSON: Father Shelley's still in ministry, isn't he?
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the archdiocese about it. I don't know what happened to the other two computers.
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1Q. 2A..
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Yes.
So you're not disputng you received
it --
No.
-- correct?
No. That is correct?
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A.
have those dates. This is 2OL2. He was -- 2O12 he would have been out of
I don't
That's correct.
Okay. The last paragraph, and she writes to you, "Father Shelley has not been assessed by
SLI since the computer was determined to have images that were borderline illegal." Did you do anything responsive to that information, Archbishop?
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ministry. 0. It was June 2012 that he took a sabbatical? A. (Examining documents) I don't -- I don't know where you're getting that date.
Archbishop, Haselberger refers also at the bottom paragraph that she's attaching a copy of a September 23rd,2004, letter -- 2004
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16 a.
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letter of referral to the SLL That would be St. Luke's Institute, correct? Correct.
And you had seen that report, had you not?
20
21 A. 22 a. 23 A.
24 25
writes to you, "You will recall that this has not been without problems, including" --
(Examining documents) I can't recall at this moment whether -- whether I did. I'm confused
by this.
178 MR. HAWS: You're referring to the
22 A. 23 a. 24 A. 25 0.
Yes.
Last sentence of the first paragraph.
180
rA.
2Q.
3
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Okay. She writes, "You will recall that this has not been without problems, including the fact that
Father Shelley had an 18-year-old male living in the rectory of St. John the Baptist in
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6Q. Had you ever seen that? 7A.. I don't believe I dd. If it came in I September o1 2OO4, I wouldn't have been
9
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I don't
this.
believe
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present on the site at the time. a. The records seem to reflect that they actually
got the report and sent him there before they got the computer evaluated or completed. MR. HAWS: Archbishop, if you know.
10 0.
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A.
I -- I -- I
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I don't know if those are facts or not, but if you know. A. Well,
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do believe that it was looked into by -- by somebody on the staff and I think it was my delegate for clergy, who would have been Father Tiffany. Okay. And did he give you a report or take
any action?
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I would
16 a.
17
this.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
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It says, at the last paragraph she says, "Archbishop, I'm attaching the copy of our
September 23rd, 2004, letter of referral to SLI as well as their repo to this memo."
Correct?
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0.
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25
A.
Correct.
Page 177
22 A. I believe by my -23 0. -- to find out? 24 A. I believe by my delegate. 25 0. And was that recorded or reported to police?
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3Q.
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O. A. O.
No,
I don't.
The next paragraph goes on to state, at the second sentence, beginning -- the paragraph
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sQ.
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"However, now that you have access to the information that was recently recovered (including DVDs of the material that was found on the computer) I think there is a great risk
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honestly can't say right now what I -- what I did or didn't do. At the last paragraph you do state -- it is stated by her, "I shared this information with Father Laird last July," Do you have any memory of having taken any action to report Shelley to law enforcement, to alert the parishioners or the public about the risks now
discerned concerning Shelly's danger to children or use, possible possession of child pornography?
MR. HAWS: Objection, that misstates
-- "a great risk associated with reassigning Father Shelley." I read that
of associated" correctly?
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17
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A. You did. O. You did reassign him, didn't You? A. I believe -- no. I don't believe I did re -reassign him at that point.
Hugo.
He was already in
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the facts, the evidence, the document you just read, counsel. There's not a word in there that says that there's a danger to children, so you've misstated the record again, inserting your own facts. If you ask it another way, it would be a proper question.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
O. A.
Actually, you left him there for six months, didn't you, in the parish he was? r believe I did, yes.
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184
1Q.
2
Without notifying anybody of this information that you had received from her, correct?
rQ.
2
34.
4
5 6
7Q. I I
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That would be correct, but I don't know that her information was -- was correct here. I'm just looking at this again for -- it's been a long time since I've seen it. Well, let me ask you another question, Under
that same paragraph enumerated number 1, she states, I'll read and then ask you questions.
"Collecting all the personal computers/ laptops that Father Shelley is using at this
34.
4
5
6 7
information contained in this memo? I believe that there was a question of the
sQ.
9
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ongoing nature of the -- the images that were on that computer and I believe I was waiting for a final analysis of that in order to make some kind of reaction. And so it is correct that four months later, Shelley was allowed to resign from his parish, claim to the parishioners he was taking a
sabbatical, correct, with your permission?
12
t3
14 A. 15 0.
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time and sending them for similar analysis." This is a recommendation action? Uh huh. It states, "If the SLI report is correct and Father Shelley has an ongoing problem with
compulsive sexual behavior in his Internet pornography use, it is very likely that this use will have continued, and since Father Shelley's never received treatment to address
12 A. I -- I'd have to look at the record. 13 0. Do you have a memory of that? 14 A. I don't have a memory of that. I know that he
15 16 17
did ask for a sabbatical and he was granted a sabbatical, and then I put him on leave after other information came to the fore.
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a.
And did you or anybody under your direction ever alert the police or the public of what
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22 A. 23 a.
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25
Not to -- not to my knowledge. And I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 45'
Before
a dispute between
46 of 51 sheets
25 0.
04/08/2014 07:53:37 AM
to t84 of 202
185
1
187
whether these images on this computer were illegal and child porn and, thus, a form of sexual abuse?
is
44. I do remember there was an argument, yes' 5Q. Tell us about that argument' what you heard
6
dated February 8th, 2013, it's to you from her. Fifth paragraph down she writes, "I would also like to reiterate that I think all of this information should be turned over to law enforcement for their determination, in hopes of avoiding prosecution for you and your
74. I
9
t0
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12 13 14
Well, Jennifer maintained that the images were those of child pornography and Father McDonough said they were not. And we had the -- at the time the investigation that was done with the retired policeman indicating that these were borderline. And so there was a dispute, obviously, about the nature of these
images.
And Kevin McDonough took the position that 60 percent of the images are created by law enforcement and because he had not been caught, he had not been guilty and he made
I
9
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staff by offering an affirmative defense." She wrote that to You, didn't she?
She did.
And then she states, "Finally, I am attaching
12 A. 13 0.
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15 0.
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21
In other words, she's saying, "Don't make the same mistake here that you made with Wehmeyer." Is that the way you read this? MR, HAWS: Objection, it's assuming
facts not in evidence. That's not what the memo says.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
20 A. I don't recall that at all, no. 21 0. He also claimed that they may have been pop-up
22 23
22
23
24 A. 25 a.
1
remember that.
24 a. 25 A.
No.
188
rQ.
2 3
A. r believe she did, A. And she went to the length to even copy some
of those images and put them on your desk,
You didn't turn this over because you were worried that you were in possession and you could be prosecuted?
4
5 6 7
8
4A..
5
That's not
because
A.
6 7
pornography.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
referred to before.
a. How many images? I A. I think there were only three, that I recall. l0 O. And she told you that she had showed those to
11
eQ.
10
So what training do you have in the area of what is and isn't child pornography?
12
A. 14 A. A. 15 t6 O. A. 17 t8 O. l9 A.
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11 A. 12 0. 13 A.
. l5
I believe she was, yes. And she wanted you to take action, didn't she? I believe she did' yes.
And you chose not to, didn't You?
O.
22 23 24
enforcement what those images were and what the archdiocese knew and included in Shelly's
I don't 25 47 of 51 sheets
A.
recall that.
Page 185
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189
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Page 189
to 192 of 2Oz
48 of 51 sheets
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2Q.
3
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Let me ask you this, Archbishop. You've now testified and publicly declared that you have identified those that you believed credibly accused and that you have files pertaining to
2
3
not cooperated with any law enforcement officials, with any person that's been -MR. ANDERSON: That's not a legal objection.
MR. HAWS: That is a legal
4
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8
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objection, counsel, because you continue to try to create your own clips and that's not -MR. ANDERSON:
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12 13
about it.
MR, HAWS: Ask him questions about
14 0.
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Well, I'm going to ask you. Will you turn the files over to the law enforcement agencies?
14
15
it.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
16
17
A.
t8
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21
mentioned before in this testmony' we've had a thorough review of the files by the Kinsale -- Kinsale and with the -- and they're still in the process of doing that and I'm waiting for that -- results of that to be able to -- to do exactly what You're
Wetl, as suggesting.
But Kinsale was hired by you, aren't they?
l6 ,17 a.
18 19 20
21
And I ask you, Archbishop, and giving you a chance to give the law enforcement people to know what your office knows by turning those files over to them privately and letting them
investigate it.
MR. WIESER: Time's up.
BY MR. ANDERSON:
22
22
23
23 0. 24 A. 25 0.
1
24 a. 25 A.
I
As
I ndcated to you,
2A.. 3Q.
4
Correct.
Just like Setter was hired by your former --
2Q.
3
4
5
6
54. 6Q.
7
Correct.
And jusl like the forensic investgator was hired, So the question I put to you, and maybe it's a request, why not just privately
7 8
I
9 10
11
turn the files over of those priests to law enforcement to let the professionals review it instead of trying to do this yourself?
MR. HAWS: Same objections. BY MR, ANDERSON:
I
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11
time is up?
MR. HAWS: Let's take a break and
12
12
13
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14 a.
Why not?
out how much time you've been on the video. MR, HIBBEN: We're going off the
record at 2:34.
MR. HAWS: We can stay on the
r5
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A.
My answer would be, we are prepared to do what we have to do when the Kinsale file review has
l5
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been done.
Don't you realize how risky it is and the danger this poses by keeping all these things within your control and those you hire and
keeping it under the internal processes that
record.
MR. HIBBEN:
18 0.
19 20
21
l8 l9
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and
22 23 24
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the start, you've got speaking objections. You're not going to get away with creating
delays by your crazy speaking objections, counsel. There's not one legal objection you
04/O8120L4 07:53:37 AM
enforcement investigation?
MR. HAWS: And
24
25 49 of 51 sheets
25
to 196 of 202
197
199
1 even more acutely problematic by reason of two 2 things: One, the archbishop's change in testimony that altered the necessity to ask 3 4 questions that otherwise would not have been, 5 in which after a break was taken, the decision 6 was made; two, there have been speaking 7 objections, none of which have been legally 8 based or identified in law as anything other 9 than recitations of belief; and, three -MR, HAWS: You can take the l0 archbishop out. 11 MR. ANDERSON: So I guess counsel is 12 leaving now, we're considering the deposition 13 14 open, They're gone -- and are you prepared to continue, Archbishop? 15 MR. WIESER: ArchbishoP, whY don't 16 you come? 17 MR. HAWS: No. ArchbishoP, You l8 don't have to. We can go. 19 For the record, You had ShelleY 20 the Wehmeyer files beforehand. In files and 21 22 terms of testimony, I believe you've actually gone beyond what the court had authorized you 23 24 to do in the deposition in any event. And the ections were necessitated by your own 25 200 1 conduct. And we'll deal with what we have to 2 with the court. You've preserved your record and we've made ours, so there's no other 3 4 reason to argue about it. MR. ANDERSON: No, We're done. 5
have posed that was legitimate' It was either privileged or, you know, if you want to do 2 form or something like that. All it has been 3 4 is speaking objections and a waste of time. I warned you in advance and I said I'm not going 5 6 to count that on the time. So given that I've had a timekeeper here and according to my 7 I timekeeper -- and your speaking objections 9 took up how much time? MS, ODEGAARD: Two-and-a-half l0 11 minutes. MR, ANDERSON: Two-and-a-half 12 t3 minutes. MR, WIESER: For the record, I've 14 15 been also keeping track and I have less than a half a minute of total time spent on what 16 17 you're referring to as speaking objections. t8 So at this point you're saying there are an additional two minutes left? 19 MS. ODEGAARD: Two-and-a-half 20 minutes left. 21 MR. WIESER: Will You keeP track of 22 23 that, Mr. VideograPher? MR. HAWS: Well, mY sPeaking 24 25 objections, for the record before you oon
1
198
r the video, are because of improper questions 2 you posed, improper hypotheticals, improper g factual scenarios that require that, counsel' And as an officer of the court, you should s know that you cannot do that, that is not 6 appropriate nor is it fair to insert your own z facts in order to create whatever it may be 8 you're trying to do here. The archbishop has g been here to answer whatever questions he can lo as best he can in a proper form, so -MR. WIESER: We're over alreadY. I 11
12 think we can wrap it up at this point, if you
6 7 8
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12 13
t3 want to. MR, HAWS: Yeah, let's just do that' 't4 MR. BRAUN: I'm good with that' ls MR. WIESER: That's fine. 16 MR. ANDERSON: So are we done? 17 MR. HAWS: We're done. You're Past 18
19
your time.
MR. ANDERSON: Well, I consider this 20 21 deposition to be open for reasons that were 22 legitimate at the start of this deposition by 2g reason of the failure to disclose, which 24 should have been, and the untimely disclosures 2s as well as the incomplete ones' And now it's
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9
I, ARcHBISHoP JoHN NIENSTEDT, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing transcript of my depositon and believe the same to be true and correct, except as follows: (Noting the page numberand line numberof the change oraddition and the reason for it)
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14
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202
I
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5 6 1
the that I lepotted I hereby cetify of RcHBISHoP JoHN NIENSTEDT, on deposition 2oI4, !^ st. Pul, the 2nd day of p!il, nd that the witness was by ne Mnnsota, the whole truth; duly sworn to tell first unde hy was transcribed That the testimony direction and is a tlue record of the of the witness, testimony has been chargd rht the cost of he orignal and to the party who noticed the deposition, vho oldeled coies have been that all parties charged at the sahe rate for such coPiesi or employee or That I n not a elative ol counsel of any of the Parties, attorney ol or employee of such attorney a lelative or
I
9
10 11 T2 13 14
15
16 1? 18 19 20
in the interested Tht I am not financially with th palties, action and have no contlact in th or persons with an interest attoneys, or has a substantial action tht affcts ny ihpartialityi tendency to affect to read and sign the deposition Tht the right by the witness vas not waived, and a copy was plovided to hih for his review;
WITNESS Y HND ND SEL THIS 4th
dAY
of April,
2014.
2I
22
23 2A
Gary W. Hemes
51 of 51 sheets
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2O2
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193:5 acttl - 110:19, 145:3,
18-year-oldtrl- 180:4
18....................1 51 - 3:6 18th ts: - I 51 :1 0, 15'l:22, 156j19
r1l
445tt187:3
19ttl-115:17
19-year-olds Itl 115"11
127:18,127:19,
128:6, 129:5, 129:15, 132:23, '132:24,143:5,
143:10,143:23, 143:24,'1641
,
5
52ttl-'170:12
55101
l+l
'193:21
,78:2,79:4,
'li44l1l - '167:10
165:13, 187:4
2014ttl- 1:18,7:25,
71'.20,136:10,
201'.25,202:4, 202:19 20th tol - 153:21 '153:24,154:9, 156:22, 158:6,
1
-2:5,2:9,
2
2ttl - 71:18
2.......................7 1 tii 3:3 20tzl- 49:'l , 168:25 2000 trl - 89:24 2001 t1t - 134i17
2:13,2:21 55113t1t-1:25
55904117 - 2:17
,
abnormal t1l - 28:18 absence lol - 12:16, 84:3,99'.24, 111 12, 176:25,177:3 absolutely t - 40:1 9 abuse ze - 37:19,
39:1, 46:23, 48:19, 51'.13, 54:22, 55:4,
80:1,80'.24,81:2,
144:13,180:'17, 182'.13, 183:12, 184:1,186:'16,
58:1 0
2lsttrl - 159:18
- 2112 22ndn- 142:'10, 2200
t1t
6
60 rrl - 185:15
90'.9,94:12,94:24,
95:1 , 95:1 6, 95: 1 8,
148:20,148:24,
155:'14, 185:3,
1
89:1 6
1:9
28:20,28'22,32:15,
49:3,73:4,73:5, 106'.8, 13022,
2
'162:25
alarm
,
- 122:20,
122122,
addictionttl- 118:10
additionz -26:21
201:6
182:21
alarmed pl-
additional
- 5:9, 5:10, 6:8, 169:4, 170:1, 197:19 address z - 100:25, 182:20 addressed l1l- 101:2 adequate ll - 50:1 8
tol
anger
I2l
123:11
1O:'15,14:1 ,'19:20,
'124:20
31:14,32:'17,39:12,
40:25, 41:9, 43:5, 54'.14,54'.22, 57:20, 64:14, 69:14, 71:23,
98:11,100:4, 100:12,101:6,
101'.16,101:22, 101'.25,102:3,
announcementIi] 13:19
7914,79:18,7920,
88:25,90:14,93:13,
105:3, 105:8, 105:11, 106:21,
109'.8, 111:21
,
136:13,139:5,
'l4O:21, 155:18,
allegations
allowltl - 103:2
allowed trot - 50:16, 51 :5, 58:6, 68:12, 7O:14,111:16, 137:15,184:9, 190:21 ,191:3
128:10,130:15,
167:17,168:7, 169:18,171:8,
172'.2, 177:16,
178:13,193:11,
194:4,'198:8,
199:11,199:16,
1
131'.4,1325, 132:7,
133:4,133:20,
135:24,'136:2, 136:12, 140:23,
99:1 8
t:
,
adulttrl - 73:7
adults ttl - 87:20 advance z - 113:14,
197:5
ARGHBISHOP 202:4
1'.13,9'.7 , 201:1
141:15,142:5, 142!13,144:4,
145:'15, 146:7, 147'.9,147:'19, 148:4, 148:9, 152:13,'153:16, 155:8, 155:20,
68:1 9
Archbishop
tgl -
advice tll - 37:1 2 advise t1l - 68:4 advised tol - 6:5, 29:17,38:4, 157:12, 157:14,159:4 advisors Itl - 85:13 affairs r - 34:10, 34:11,59:24, 127:4 Affairs trl - 2:20
appearttt - 5:15
APPEARANCES trl 2:1
,67:6,68:1,
, ,
AND
121
- 1'.8,202:18
21
162:11,162:16,
163:7, 163:11, 165:2, 167:6, 167'.12, 168:18, 169:2, 169:14,
71:19,79'15, 83:7
87:1 1 , 95:25, 96:1
Anderson
- 8:14,
affecttrt -202:15
affects -20215
Affiliated Irt - 8:10
AFFILIATED ttl - 1:24 affirmed H- 14i7 affording ttl - 169:19 afternoon Itl - 145:8 agencies z - 129:22,
1
170:4,170:16, 171'.10,171:13,
171'.16,17'l:21 173:1, 174:'lO, 176'.17,176:22, 178:3,'178:5,
,
172:18,172:22,
appeared s1 - 2:6, 2:9,2:13,2'.17,2:21 applies ttt - 146:20 apply t1 - 40:4 appoint Itl - 152:23 appointed Isl - 9:21,
10'.5,14:25, 15:1 1941 appointment tll 15:4
,
96:5,102:16,105:7,
109:13,
1
12:6,
147:21, 151:6,
170:17,172:25,
173'.21, 178:21, 179:17, 180:6,
188:19,191:10,
193:2, 195:17,
1
93:1 5
agency lst-94:20, 138:17,138:18 ago t71 - 13:23,36:12, 45:3,57 11, 107:1, 107:5,107:16 agree fl - 6:l 8, 6:23,
53:5, 135:11, 165:1, 169:3, 192:1 1 agreed ll - 144:15
40:22,40:24,41:8,
44:12, 46:22, 47:5,
47:15,47'.23,49:13,
50:25, 53:6, 53:24,
54:1,54:5,54:8,
55:10, 55:15, 56:18, 57:7, 58:19, 59:9,
appreciate Isl - 25:18, 30:23,54:16 approach tel - 25:11, 77:22,78:4 approached 1 113:12
99:1 5
appropriate
199:12,200:5 ANDERSON..............
ARCHDIOCESEItt 1:8
archdiocese
za
4:12,5:18,11:8,
'12:3, 12:17, '12:22, '1320, '14:14, 16:1,
..9ft -3:2
Andy
tt
33'.4,47:13,534,
141:12, 155:'19 al lrl - 8:4
- 15:15,
71:14,71:22,751
98'.24, 149:14,
160:4,162:20,
archbishop
Issl - 4:6,
3
authority l4t- 146i23,
147:3, 157'.6,157:8 110:7, 110:21 43:19, 56:20, 80:9
46:11, 48'.17, 50:17, :5, 55:3, 55:12, 56:6, 56:25, 57:9, 63:14, 64:16, 65:2,
51
aside Isl - 73:14, 73:18,73:25 assert lzl - 75:6, 152:3 asserting pl - 154:2,
154:5
65:8,65:25,66:1,
68:20,75:'15,77:14, 77:25,78:5, 8O:7,
91
:13,94:8,94:25,
assertions t 166:23
auxiliary tl - 34:11, 43:19, 56:20, 80:8 avoiding Itl - 187:9 awaree+1 - 12:8,
16:19, 16'.20,22:6, 32'.17,32:21 ,32:22, 32:23, 43:9, 43:10, 49:24, 50:2, 50:12, 50:13, 50:14, 50:16, 51'.4,51'.20,55i21 55:25, 56:2, 56:3,
,
136:19,136:23,
137:19, 143:6 becomes lrl - 73:15
112'.24,142:19,
148:8
101:18,102:19,
103:15, 104:2, 104:17, 105:4, '105:15, 105:23, 107:25,108:1 ,
110:16,111:16, 116:24,128:'16,
'131:18, 138:11, 139:15, 147:11, 148:3, 148:4,
began tsl -
'19:1 I
blew ttl - 47:9 board tsl - 80: 14, 92:12, 193:25 boards trl - 80:12 Bonse tll - 65:20 booktsl -113:13,
115'.14,1'17:25
56:8,56:11,56:23,
58:25, 59:11, 59:21 59'.22, 59:23,6O:4,
,
beginning 1 -
181 :7
148:10,'151:13,
156:16,'167:23, 174'.24, 175:1 , 176'.7, 176:14, 186:23, 189:8, 195:2
6O'14,64:20,64:23,
64:25, 65:4, 65:5,
Associatesttl- 75:19 assume [3] - 39:13, 117:20, 169:18 assumes [3] - 39:10, 53'.21,61:10 assuming + - 95:9,
95:17,111:19,
187:20
bottom
'151
65:9,65:10,65:14,
65:18, 65:23, 65:24, 66:5, 66:14, 66:18, 67:2, 67:9, 83:6, 83:8, 87:25, 88:4, 102:7, 110'.6, 115:8,
'122:2, 122:5,122:8,
begun
1
tzt
- 100:5,
36:1 3
boundary
H-
102i21
assure
- 20:l
165:23
122:10,125:19, 125'.20,136:15,
'136:19, 136:23, 137:7, '137:19, 138'.11, 140:2, 140:12, 143:4, 143:6, 145:5, 145:9,
behaviortsl - 73:7, 108:18,182:17 behavioral tll - 28:15 behaviors Irl - 28:19 behind 21 - 190:7,
190:12
archive
186:12
21
- 173:22,
103:3, 103:9, 108:3, 108:5 Braun Irl - 8:25 BRAUN tst-2:15, 8:25, 198:15 break rz - 7:'16,28:9,
belief
145:16,156:24,
157:22, 157:24, 159:20, 160:6, 160:1 1 , 166:23 awful l1 - 76:3
82:17, 95:1, 99:19, 138:25, 161:5, 168:14, 199:9 belonged tll - 134:16 benefitttl - 53:1
167:14,172:6,
172:8, 196:10,
attachment
190:11, 192:22
l9l:19,
- 5:1
1 ,
attempt
33:'14
tzt
B
background
78:8, 129:9
bad
t+l
21
65:1 0
betterttl -172:19
151 :15
attemptedtll attention
1ro1
- 30:8, 30:13,
63:1
,73:7
152:8,159:19,
184'.24,190:19
beyondtzt -25:25,
199:23 bias trl - 119:13 big lrl - 33:16
Baptist
base
tgl
t1
- '180:5
attorney
202:12
t2l
- 202:11,
2:7
,
95:'1 1,
arrest
- 121:15,
125:20,'142:9, 162:12, 162]13, 162:19 arrested tol - 28:16, 46:15, 122:2, 141'.25, 144:8, 144:9
Attorney s2:11,2:15
business
I 1 8:18
117:12,
arrival
16:21
't34"11
became r - 43:4,
54:13, 65:20, 83:7,
bishop s - 16:22, 43:13,51 :'11,51 :16, 51:17,51:18, 52:18, 53:10,54:9 bishops tzt - 17:7,
17'.1'l,
'17:21
Bussman
pJ
- 134:2,
,34'11
23:24,25'.16,27:8, 28:4,29:25,30:12,
30:19,3'l:21 ,32:16,
33:6, 34:17, 35:11,
66:1 9
135:17,146:16
canonical
n-
14:20,
36:3,37:11,39:17,
40'.24, 41:8, 44:12,
34'10,59:24,84:23,
92:17, 126:16,
127:4, 135:17,
Chancellortrl - 2:19 chancellors s 14'.2',t,15"9, 15:13, 25'.20, 43:18, 56:20, 80:7,80:8, 116:25
17:12
165:18,183:16,
183:21
53:6,54:1,54:5,
54:8, 55:10, 55:15, 56:18, 57:7, 58:19, 59:10, 59:20, 61:15,
Children
tt
16:17,
communication
1
1 -
62:7,63:25,64:8,
67:10, 68:9, 69:20,
,168:10,
- 5:8, 8:7,
9, 98:1 1 , 1 00:4,
16:23, 41:14, 48:16 children's ttt - 128:15 Chisago lrt - 132:14 choice tgl - 30:13, 33:8, 33:13, 34:23, 38:2, 38:23, 58:10, 130'.7,130:17 choose Isl - 7:13, 7:15, 81:6 chose z - 37:17,
1
50:1 8
16l
communications
34'.9,164:12,
1
community
48:4
13'.14,27'.22,29:16, company
tol - 44:10, 44:16, 65:25, 66:6, 176:6, 176:7 compilation Irl -
characterization
86:1
101:16,102:15, 104:19,104:24,
77:7 ,77:'16,77:19
105:12,10520,
107:4, 107:14, 109:24, 1'11:1 , 112:2, 112:'17,
74:3,74:6,74:14, 81 :5,82:15,98:7,
101'.11, 107:19, 110:8, ll0:10,
110:11
,110:23,
charge t+l - 45:17, 82'.1 6, 84:'l 2,'l 28:21 charged I4l - 82:9, 134'.9,202:8,202:10 charges tzl - 42:25,
50:23
circle z - 25:'19, 25:25,43:18,56:15, 56:17,56:19 circumstances [2] 36:24, 150:6 citation trl - 122:1 cited Itl - 29:3 civil trol -'14:20, 34:10, 52:10,92:17,
109:2, 109:3, 111:4,
129:15
comple
111
128:11
compiled
'127:5,'127:16
complainttrl - 151:12
complete n1 - 5:16, 44:9,50:18,92:20 completed fzl - 51:2,
178:12
chartertlt - 80:13
check ttl - 60:13 checks tzl - 78:8,
129:9
126:16,146:15
Civilttt - 2:20
claim tzl - 11 16,75:4, 92:7,'140:5, 158:11, 160:21,184:10 claimed ltl- 185:21 claims f l- 86:1
147:19,148:9, 152:13,153:16,
155:8, 155:20, 162'.11, '162:16,
child
tsel - 49:3,
75:3,75:12,76:15,
79:24,81:24,82:9,
83:9, 83:17, 85:15, 86:2, 86:3, 86:15, 86:23, 88:2, 88:5, 88:7, 89:2, 89:16, 109:4, 148:20,
caughtttl - 185:18
caused pl - 61:'17
62:10
,
compulsion
118:10
111
causes
12:'14
t2l
- 12:1,
compulsive
t3l
156:24,157:19, 157:23,158:3,
158:4, 165:24, 175:8, 175:12,
193:13,194:13, 195:16,195:23
19:21,
145:18,145:20,
'145'.22,146:1
'174'.11
,
certainly H- 45:22,
'122'.24, 128:'17,
c
C,D.F tsl - 85:10, '133:22, 134:18, 135:7, 135:15 calculating ll - 7:12 calculation ttl - 169:9 campground Ill 122:'14
22:1,22:2,78:10,
129:10,180:14,
.190:4,
, 174:17
193:25
174:21 ,175:2,
133:25
childhood
- 201:2,
55:1 3
tzt
- 54:22,
clerical
n - 136:21
113:18
certify
202:3
tzl
clinictrllqol
178:12,179:14, 181:14,184:5,
't85"1, '.t85:22
children
- 1l:18,
26:20,26:23,28:'14,
28:20,28:22,32:15,
46'.11, 47:2, 47:10,
clips Irl - '195:9 close tll - 86:8 closely ltl-'107:21 coadjutor lol - 9:22,
10'.4, '14:14,25:23,
110:7,129:2
concern
1t1
collecting
1:19
tj- 182:10
[z]
camping pl - 121:21
commencing comment
'141:16
rr4l - 52t15, 57:22, 58:4, 58:9, 67:24, 68:10, 68:13, 69:4, 69:7, 85:13,
'111:15,113:25, 119:19,119:22,
128:18,'128:24,
141:'14,
canon
[2]
- 1 61 :1 3,
commissioned trl -
5
176:8,176:13,
177'20,177:21
+
,
38'.3,52'.18, 52:24, 125:2, 125:7 concerning zz1 10:10, 11:9, 13:11, 16:1, 16:5, 18:2,
36:6,38:1,38:9,
39:24
course
164:4
132'.'14,132:15 z - 31:6,
considering
1
ti1 -
conversion
99:1 3
37'.18,39:20, 44:5,
46:4,46:11,46:23,
52:1,59:13,80:25, 90:8,94:17, 100:16, 101:19,105:5, 109:10,131:7,
165:21
1
constitutes
109:6, 94:8
1
t2l -
51 :1 9
z
33:20, 34:5, 34:18 convcted n- 64:20 conviction trl - 60:3 cooperated ttl - 195:3 cooperative t1 106:3
178:24,178:25,
1791, 179:8,
179:'lO, 179:11, 182:2, 182:3,182:4,
COURTtzI -1'.1,1:24
court
so1
- 4:10,5:1
5:17,5:19,6:3,6:17,
6'.20,6:25,7:5,9:5, 11:22,28:3,31:25, 32'.9,36:2,37:10, 41:7,46'.21,47:22,
55:9, 57:6, 63:24, 69:19, 70:10, 71:6,
consultant
- 65:11,
copes
t21
-202:9,
202:10
192:13,192]14,
193'.24,194:1 , 194:2, 194:4,'194:5, 201:4
,167:18,
170:18,170:20,
83:1 5
contained
g-
4:20,
correct
correction
t13l
13'.12, 137:24,
concluded
151:18
111-
conclusion
e1
context
139:2, 139:4,
167:18,167:19, 167:25,168:4,
,
'149:9,
3O:25,32'.21,33:2, 38:17, 38:18, 40:5, 42:14, 42:19, 48:19, 50:10, 56:15, 57:3,
167:5,172:19,
188:16, 198:4,
123:25,200:'l
conducted Vl 1
18:7
continue
t11l
1'l :16,
correspond r 167:2
conducting
61 :25, 96:11,
111:16,113:8,
116'.16,124:23, '125'.8, 137:15,
confessional 158:23
88:11,89:4,89:8, 93:19,95:18,95:22,
95:25, 98:25,
58:1 7
continuously
31:24
t1l
1026, 104:7,
'lO4'.12, 104:22,
.106:20,109:16, 109:20,'112:6,
32:1,72:18, 126:8,
127'.12, 127:22,
contract
tsl - 21:6,
115:17,130:9,
135'.22, 137:25,
13'l:24,193:4
crmet6l -82:6,82:8, 108:24,108:25, 109:6, 134:9
138:15,154:17,
177:24
68'.3,202:14
contradictttl - 166:23
contradicted Itl 137:21
142:10,'143:18, 144:5,145:10,
147:3, 'l5O'.3, 151:4,
151 :8, 151 :9,
169'.16,171:14,
174:8, 183:20,
Congregation
85:11
63:14
151:16,151:17,
151:20,151:21 152:25,153:1 , 153:7, 153:8,'154:1, 154:4, 157:7,
,
control fq - 66:12,
t1l
congregaton
134:3
controversy t z
crisis
21
- 19:20,
1 ,
connection
137:20
'164:20
157'.15,157:20,
158'.12, 158:25, 161:12,'161 14,
counttgl - 7:10,
'116:7, 197:6 country t3l - 43:1,
52:8,92:6,128:25,
156:1,156:10,
156:13,158:.18,
58:10,130:7, 130:17,130:19
162:17,162:22,
162'.24,163:2,
43'.8,50:24
COUNTY tzl - 1:2, 202:2 County 01 - 1:16, 8:5
considertsl - 63:1,
70'.12, 100:19,
165:l I
166:18,166:25,
-
conversations
+1
6 l:15
DEPOSITION 3:7, 3:8, 3:9
,
117:21
,130:19,
difficulties
t+t
|zl - 6:13,
'198:24
132:18, 139:12,
- 3:6,
28:15
discoverlzl - 12:4,
39:9
D
Dan
s
46:23, 139:1 declared Irl - 193:3 declaring Irl - 196:8 decree tal - 15'l:7, 153:9,153:11, 153'.17,154:11, 155:13,155:17,
161 :5
dilemma - 167:15 Diocese tzl - 2:'17,9:1 diocese tol - 51:6, 51:10,51:12,51:18, 51:19,134:16
DIOCESE ttt - 1:8
discoverable
38:25
1t
discovered
32:12,36:7,38:25,
81:23, 148'.25,149:3
170:10,171:20, 172:9,172:15,
196:6, 198:21 198:22, 199:13,
,
discrepancy r 90:22
- 8:21 ,45:4,
123:19,149:6,
149:22, 184:18, 202:7 directly Isl - 53:10,
discuss
tsl
- 92:16,
108:10,108:23,
'126:20
dangers - 183:15,
183:2'l ,'194:19 DANIEL tlt - 2:7
100'.21, '.t43:9
199:24,201:3, 202:4,202:9,202:16
discussed
fl
- 60:6,
61'.12, 68:17
I 65:1 4
,7811
depositions
Isl - 6:9,
9:16,'172:12
98:17,110:13,
date tzsl - 9:25, 10:6, 30:21, 31:10, 36:11, 47:25, 48:1, 57 12,
discussing
,
tol -
disability
Ist - 65:21
59'.18,83:2,87:12, 92'.2,94:23,99:16,
112:10,112:'12, 142:1, 142:14, 142:23, 144:6, 144:8,'150:21 '154:2, 155:23,
,
66:22,67:8,67:17,
67:23
Discussion
degree
109:2
Iz1
- 109:1 ,
120:4,127:13
descriptorttl - 108:5
- 58:20 desirettl - 80:19 deskttt - 186:4 destroy ttl - 160:5 destruction t1l -
11'.21,28:2,36:1 , 37 9, 4'l:6,46:20,
delay
s - 171:23,
deserves
t1l
47:21,558, 57:5,
63:23, 69:18, 70:9,
7'l:5,76'.17,82:21,
t1
'177:15
disagreement
93:7
14'.22,25:20,45:'l,
45'.16, 46:10, 47:7,
100:3,.105:18,
'118:2, 118:24,
160:8
77:'10,92:18,
108:11, 11'l:7, 126:17,180:'14, 180:24
155:3,155:9,
155:'11, 161:17, 164'.2, 164:6, 177:10 days tlt - 78:1 0
detailed Itl detailsttl - 110:10 detection ltl - 109:5 determination trgl 14:11, 86'.12, 87:3,
.173:6
119'.24,'.t21:4,
126:3,128:8, 133:2,
133:18,142:1'1, 144:2, 146:5,147:7,
dept-4i11,32i25
Deacon Vl - 58:24, 111:9,'142:19,
144:17, 144:24, 145:6, 148:7
delegated tst - 44:13, 44:24,77:6 delegates lrl -'180:21 delegation Itl 146.'21
147:17,162:9,
'162:14,163:9, 167:4, 188:7 discussion I4l - 34:8, 101:14, 163:2'1, 168:3
134:25,140:15,
198:23
108:15,132:11,
tzl - 4:24,
deletions
7:1
187:8
determine
tol
- 14:15,
56:1 9
108'.24,191:25 determined t] -
26:10,88:12, 'l4O:3,
179:14
discussions
lel -
38'.14, 163:12,
163:17,163:18,
163:22,'163:25,
164:'19, 165:6 disk tzl - 4:17,5:8
diagnosedtrl- 118:9
diagnosis
tol
- 66:1 6,
December
1z
- 3l :8,
44'.9,101'.18, 102:5, 102:18, 132:20, 132:22 decentr - 135:23 decision Itsl - 30:9,
denyn-22:4
depamenttzl 86:14,86:22 Department tgl 75:11 , 86:22, 91:16, 94'.22,97:13,97:14, 99:5,106:25,133:10 Deposition - 1:'13,
66:23,67:1,67'.21, 67:23,69:23 Diagnostic Itl - 67:15 diary trl - 38:13 difference s; 130:23, 13'l:6, 131 :9 different tsl - 37:16, 75'.6,89:11, 123:23,
168:22
85:1 3
dissemination
31 :'16
ll
difficultttl - 26:17
155:12,155:13,
'155:22, 155:24,
107:6,108:19,
108'.21, 1'lO:17,
156:20,162:4,
171'.9,172:1 , 183:19 documentation r 159:24
- 181:13
129:22,130:18,
130:25, 131:8,
DWttl-28:17
DWI trl
159:6, 165:14, 199:24 eventually Irl - 9:21 evidence tzl - 32:5, 33:4, 39:1 1 , 50:21 , 53:22, 58:16, 61 :11,
62:1
43:'14
- 123:5
131:18,13'l:25,
132:13, 133:6,
experts I1l - 175:7 expired ttl - 140:4 explain n- 114:1'l explained tl - 6:13,
18:17, 18'.18,99:2
documents
E
early
East
I2l
133:16,138:17, 138:18,147:23,
167'.21, 167:24,
,62'2, 68:21
, ,
68'.24,75:3,82:1 106:20,111:19,
131:2, 145:'12, 156:21 , 160:5,
177:14,177:23,
80:18,
164:1,
183:13,185:17,
186:22, 187:8,
19'l24
Doe
t4l
173:'12
I4l
- 8:3,32:20,
- 1:18,2:8,
expressed
139:21,140:13
DOE trl - 1:5
160:9,183:19,
187:21, 189:25,
195:2
donatedr - 174:12
donation
fl-
174:23
30:21,3l:10,51:19,
57:12,63:15,87:12, 87:14,92:2 exactly ltol - 10:22,
17:15, 20:11 , 23:3, 23:11, 24:2, 25:'13,
enlightening
effectively
82:18
Izl - 66:9,
66'.13,75:19,75:22, 81'.14,84:18,84:21
91
effort
,
- 14'.2,94:14, 140:13,189:20,
ts1
- 70:7 - 139:15
fl
36:11,155:13,
193:21
:8,95:14,99:3,
'192:16
'lO3'.14, 107:12,
environment
re
F
facttzzl - 10:10, 13'.24, 14:8,46:'13, 46'.14, 56'22, 59:16, 71:4,81:1'1,81:22,
89:3, 90:7, 93:18, 94:6, 98:20, 98:23, 113:20, '119:'17,
'167:16,'176:1
,
134:14,134:23,
137:2, 137:4, 146:25, 150:9,
142:'17,144:16,
146:8, 147:10,
150:10,150:14,
158:20, 158:21,
149:14,150:24, 156:1,159:20,
160:4, 160:20, 162:20,163:1 , 163:14 eitherlr+1 -24!16,
180:3, 192:24
excludingtrt- 169:15
excuse [io] - 45:13, 56:1 , 56:10,77:23, 98:15,125:11, '143:24,149:13,
170'.25,177:1
facts
tcl
- 32:5,33:4,
198:17,198:18,
200:5
148:23,149:5, 149:11,149:23,
150:4, 157:14,
62'.2,67:2,67:9,
68:7, 68:8, 69:9, 69:'16, 69:25, 70:1, 75:6,75:7 , 82:1 , 83:12, 96:6, 96:7,
ELIN Irl - 2:3 Elin trt - 8:20 emphasis trl - 192:14 employ tzt - 80:19, 164:5 employed ttt - 156:23
157:16,157:20, 158:16,159:4,
159:14
Exhibittrst - 146:4, 147:16,151:5, 155:17,156:18, 170:24,'184:23, 187:1,188:15, 188:18,190:18, 191 :1,191:6, 191:8,
191 :9
96:17,96:18, 104'.15,111:19,
115:20, 116:1, 116:2, 1'16:5, 130:10,'145:12,
driving
s7- 28:17,
employeez -202:'11,
202:12
155:23
46:15,'121:25
empowered
143:17,'157:2
exhibittil -
190:21
encounters
115:11
[1] -
121 :8,
endtrt-150:10
enforcement aa1 82:10,86:11,93:5, 94:20, 105:5, 105:16, 105:24,
during
- 10:8,
estimate ltl - 10:17 et lrl - 8:4 evaluate lrl - 67:6 evaluated ttl - 178:12 event I4l - 63:12,
existed tzl - 6:1 , 160:l exonerated fi - 82:18 expectt2l -6:22,7:7 expected t2l - 5:5,
21:21
faculties
tal
- 12:10,
failures
Il
- 61 :6,
183:11,185:8, 187:14,'187:15,
187:16
191:16,191:18,
191:21
,192:23,
77:18,98j12, 132:8,
198:6
fathertol - 49:7,
55:18, 135:21,
149:1'l ,'176:23,
193:5,193:15, 193:17,194:9,
195:20,199:21 tr1 - 188:22 final trt - 184:6 Finally trl - 187:13 finance ttl - 66:13 financially ttl - 202:13 findings t+l - 70:6,
generals
s1
- 43:1 9,
1
fioefi-
184:17
56:21, 80:9
faith
Faith
tzl
- 13:14,29:17
- 85:11
Files
t1t
176:24
genitals trl -
51 :16
fault
,
let - 45:1
9, 46:8,
46:25
1 1
8:6, 1 36:1 6,
February
- 114:5,
lar t - 4'.21, 68:1 7, '101:6, 13216 Father tttel - 12'12, 18:8, '18:9,22:11,
171:3, 187:4
fellfi-
164:2
98:1 0
grls t1t - 13:22 given trgl - 9:16, 17'.13,2O:5,22:19, 52:25,78:9,83:4, 86'.21, 91'.17 , 157:6,
157:8, 160:4, 162:6, 169:20, '170:21, 170:23, 173:3, 197:6 Given ttt - 153:24 goal lel - 128:14,
fellowil
- 63:10
22:24,23:6,25:10,
25'.20,26:6,35:'16, 36:9,41:1,41 :16,
44:18, 45:3, 45:4,
felt tat - 6:9, 30:3, 45:12,60:25,61:2, 63:4, 129:3 few +1 - 4:6, 107:1 107:5,107:16
,
finish
four
- 7:6,7:11,
45:21,46:14,46:24,
48:7, 48:'13, 49:7, 49:10, 49:25, 5O:2, 50:8,51:20,5.1 :25, 52:12, 56:5, 56:8, 56'.11, 56:23, 57:17, 58:1'1, 58'.17,58:21,
4:'18,8:15,71:7 79:16,172:5,
172:1'l ,'190:22,
191 :5
96:1 8
Finnegan
tr
8:1 6
first
t+l
- 4:8,5:25,
52:6,52:10,65:17, 75:21,75:24,76:2,
90:11, 90:21 , 90:23,
157:12,158:6, 158:19,158:20,
59:11,59:25,60:5,
60:16, 63:13, 65:10, 8'1 :15, 60:23, 63:8, 63:17, 64:15, 65:18, 74:4, 84:25, 85:8,
,
24:25,29:7,32:7,
35:2, 39:10, 64:23,
104:22,104:25,
'105:5, 105:15,
Griffith
108:10,108:23,
126:20
friendly trt - 122:6 front lzl - 6'.3, 172:1 full tt - 9:12, 31 :6,
31 :'l
1,53:15
129jl,
138:7,
140:25,141:22,
'143:4,144:7,
144:11 ,'145:19,
64:13,95:7, 100:'1 ,
142:3, 199:12
132:11,173:6,
'186:24,190:4,
113:17,119:2,
119:11, 119:12, 120:8, 12Q:1'l
,
190:17,'194:16,
1
guidance
96:1
ss - 4:1
152:16,155:16,
'155'.21
G
Gallatintrrl -78:15,
100:5, 100:23,
guilt
1s
81 :9
files
,160:20,
guilty
1+1
- 55:22,
143:13,'143:14, 144:17,144:24,
'145:5, 148:7,
44:3,44:10,68:14, 70:4,75:15,75:25,
76:4, 83:4, 9'l:3,
101:15,101:19,
101:24, 102:4,
Gustafson
148:13,148:22,
148:23, 149:3, 149:4, 150:4,
92:22,99:2,99:3,
105:22, 106:16,
66:14,6815,69:22
Gustafson's ttl - 65:7 guy t2t - 15:6, 58:12 guys r - '104:5
106:23,129:20,
130117,130:24, 131:7, 131:16,
96:1 9
133:5,133:15,
134:3, 160:5, 160:8,
floortrlFlynn
tzt
189:5
- 15:2,83:7
- 25:22, half
tst
H
- 136:4,
174:5, 179:13,
folks trl - 77:7 follow lzl - 70:7, 168:9 follow-up Irl - 168:9 followed H-37:12 follows tzl - 9:9, 201:5
general's pl - 188:22,
189:3
197:10,197:12, 197'.16,197:20
HANDtrl -202:18
9
handle t - 143:17 handled t6t - 45:8, 45:15, 110:2,
135:'17, 166:6,
176:'12 162:'14, 163'.9, 167:4
116:9, 130:9, 131:1, 132:2, 135:22, 135:25, 136:3, 140:19, '141:'11, 142:2, 145:11, 147:5,'148:2,
including \at-32:20,
173:8, 179:21,
held
tzt
- 16:1, 84:9
42:7
helpn-
180:3,181:13,
186:24
ncomplete
198:25
t21
- 4:23,
- 77:9,
152:10,153:14, 155:5,155:16,
163:5, 164:24, 168:7, 168:25,
?l-
1:15,
incorrect
- 151:24,
- 26:23, 56:6,
169:12,'169:25, 170:8,170:13,
171:8, 171:11, 17'l:14, 171:18,
9:5,7'l:15,71:18,
136:5, 136:8, 167:9, 170:6, 170:'11,
151:14,175:6,
179:'15, 184:4,
111:15,118:19, 128:24,153:5,
1
170]14,196:14,
1
185:1,185:7,
185:14,'185:16,
89:1 0
171:25,172:7,
172:14,172:21 176:15,'178:1 178:13,'183:18, '187:20,189:24,
, ,
96:1 8
185:22,186:4,
186:6, 186:8, 186:22
85'285:21,86:24,
89:1, 92:8, 93:3,
190:2, 190:20,
191
50:1 6
tzt
indicating p) - 21:21
1
85:1
lndicating) 1
:1,193:9,
hindsight
150:'15
- 145:2,
107:7,111:'13,
117:10, 117:21, 120:9,152:1 ,
194:12, 194:25,
159:19,161:8,
'163:14, 166:5, 17'l:1, 177:16,
'l
indication
119:21
113:24,114:5,
,119:23,
Isl - 25:15,
159:18,160:2
individual
184:25,185:25, 90:l I
,
99:1
73:14, 189:9
individuals
Hayden
27
- 158:21
:18,32:4,33:3,
34:15,35:9,39:10,
40:6, 40:12, 40:18,
41:5,44:7,47:3,
47:12,49:11,50:20,
53:3, 53:18, 53:25, 54:3, 547, 55:14, 56:16, 58:'14, 59:18, 61'.10, 61'.19, 61:24,
158:22 head ttl - 135:2 head) Isl - 7:20, 17:19, 118:23 health ttl - 67:16 heaV)- 57:22, 62:20, 63:19, 105:13 hearby Irt - 152:23 heard Irsl - 63:20,
holding trl - 22:14 home t41 - 51 :6, 51 :10,5'l :11 honestly Irl - 183:7
important
147:1
Isl
- 19:19,
inform
-'116:23,
impression
77:4
l2l
- 77:1
hopestrl- 187:9
information
1r
tzl -
hourtrl-
136:4
tr1
improper
,
- 96:12,
hour-and-a-half
198:1,'198:2
lN lrl
1:1
646,67:3,67:25,
68:21, 69:3, 69:7,
96:1 8
inappropriaterr 69:13,102:20,
103:3, 103:8,
113'.10,117:10, 120:3,124:7,
'128:20, '138:16, 142:22, 143:1 ,
'145:4, '148:'11,
hypotheticals
198:2
t1
151:19,151:23, 152:5,160:23,
161:20,162:1 , '162:18, '162:19, '173:7, '179:16,
69:18,70:9,71:5,
76'.'17,82:21,87:15,
,83'.21, 115:2,
180:10,181:12,
182'.1, 182'.4, 183:5,
115:12,11513,
idea Isl - 35:17, 53:17,
90:15,98:9, 100:15,
1
05:1 8,
1 1
8:2,
97:15,160:19,
1
117:25,1246, 125:21,148:18
118:24, 1'19:24,
89:1 9
incidents
lsl
- 49:2,
identified
8:11,25:3, 113:1
76:22, 107'.17,
10
'111:8, 116:21
,
103:14,.108:7,
154:11 154:21 194:21
'120:14, 122:11,
,15420,
,
162:2,
142:18,148:16
June
- '10:2, 1 13:6,
142:9, 149:16,
151'.10, '151:22,
95:1 9
176:3,176:4, 176:5,
initiative
133:14
tzt
- 133:12,
internally ltl- 132:11 lnternetlll - 182:17 interpret Itt - 4:10 interruptlzl - 18:22,
'100:7
J
Jackson tll - 2:4 Jay tst - 17:12,32:8, 32:11,32:14,33:'17 Jeff tzt - 8:14, 100:5
JEFFREY t1l - 2:2 Jenniferzs1 - l5:10, 59:23, 60:8, 60:14, 80:20, 85:2, 85:20, 86:24, 89:1 , 90:23,
K
k-i-n-s-a-l-ettl - 13:9 Keating tsl - 109:10,
109:17,109:25,
110:2, 110:4 Keenan1 - 139:14 keep lel - 34:1 3,
innerz -25!19,
25:25, 43:1 8, 56:1 5,
L
lack lzt - 4:9, 18:11 Laird tl - 59:25, 60:5, 60:16, 63:1,
intervention
interview
t+t
tr1
- 75:9
56:17,56:19
- 156:23,
innocently
185:22
tr1
63:9,63:13,63:17,
84:25, 85:8, 91:20,
investigate
tel - 64:1
inserting
183:23
tzl - 69:9,
137:8, 195:21
91'.21,91:24,92:3,
92:5,92:8,92:11,
92:23,93:1, 119:2, 119:11,119:15, 119:18,120:8,
125:11, 152:23, 153'.4, 157:3, 157:5,
keeperttl - 166:20
,
investigation
aa
25:1,55:16,65:2,
65:6
installed 'rj-9:2'l
instance tzl - 73:17, 10317 instances trl - 73:23 instead tel - 35:'10,
194:11, 194:22 lnstitute I2l - '177:20, 178:4
197:15 Ken 21 - 29:5, 29:8 kept o - 34:25, '106:24,189:1 189:2, 189:4, 192:24 Kevin lol - 14:23, 24:17, 47:6, 49:25, 89:7, 137:'1, 184:25,
,
157:15,158:25, 159:11,159:20,
162:6, 163:14,
instruct
t6l -
39:23,
85:1 5
183:11,187:16 Laird's Irl - 62:8 laptops ltl - 182:11 last lgol - 5:12,6:4, 9:'13, 12:4, 12:13,
13:2, '15:14,25:2,
,185:10,
194:24
14013,148:13,
149:5, 149:11 , 180:5 JOHN tt - 1:13,9:7,
'120'.18, 167:17,
170:18,178:20,
179:12, 179:'19, 179:25,'183:9,
183:ll,191:14,
191 :15
tt-2:19
insurance
- 65:24,
67:7, 68:3
insures r - 65:25 integrity tzt- 62:18, 62i24 intended n- 171:23 intentt2l - 103:'10,
107:2
142:24, 149:3
intentions
46:1
A-
45:22,
Jrtrl-
105:5,105:16,
'105:23,107:5,
interestt4l - 67:19,
113'.25, '119:22, 202:14 interested tzl - 165:8, 202:13 internal U\ - 94i7,
issue ttl - 29:20 issued r -'134:17 issues s] - 78j12, 80:13,101:1, 124:24,125:3 lT Ltt- 56:24,57:8,
39:1 5
130:18,130:24, 131:8,131:18,
'131:24,131:25,
132:13,133:5, 133:16,138:17,
11-
67:5,69:2, 104:14,
147:5, 152:11,
64:18,72:8,72:9,
180:4, 180:19 locate 1z - '173:19,
191 :18
161:2,193:10,
195:5, 195:7, 195:12, 196:25 legally Irt - 199:7 legitimate tzt - 197
198:22
locations
'1,
21
- 106:17
193:7,193:15,
194:9, 194:23,
24:5,24:8,24:25,
25:10,34:19,35:2,
35:6, 35:16, 35:20, 36:21, 36:23, 63:6, 63:11,'156:22, 159:8, 159:'19
195:3,195:18,199:8
Law+1 - 2:4,2:8,
2:12,2:16
lawsuittrl- 65:19
lawyer t+l - 91 :9, 122:4, 161:13,
1
length Irl - 186:3 less tzl - 5:4, 5:16, 20:'14,37:22,37:24, 119:6,197:15 letterllll - 5:7, 43'12,
52:18, 85:10, 85:19, 85:20, 85:23,
100:13,100:17, 114:20,124:13, 152:25,15410, 159:25,176:2 matters tll - 4:6 McDonough lot 14:23, 15:9, 18:8, 18:9, 19:9,22:11 25:10,25:21
,
looked
tel
41:21
66:1 9
22'.24,23'.7,24:17,
lawyers ltl-'141:16 layperson fi- 60:12 learn ra - 42:20, 57:22,65:15, 88:12, 90:4, 113:7, '120:16, 120:21 , 121:7,
121:14, 140:6, '141:22, 142:14,
177:18,177:19,
178:2, 178:22 letters trl - 6:8 letting trt - 195:20 Levada Irl - 85:'12
132:10,145:22,
159:24,'180:12 looking tsl - 87:4, 115:3,'161:17, 182:5, 190:6 lookstrl - 115:4 lost Irl - 73:21 Luke'sro1 - 118:6,
,266,
35:16,36:9,36:21,
37:1 , 38:3, 40:3,
41:1
,45:2,45:3,
,
lien-22:4
lies Irl - 68:8 likely tzt- 20:7,
'182:18
118:13,120:2,
120:7, 123:15,
123:20,124:5, '124:11,177:20,
178:4
50:8, 50:1 1 , 57:1 7, 58:1'1, 58:17, 58:22, 59:12, 88:17, 89:7, 89:1 8, 95:3, 97:2, 111:6, l1l:8,
190:12,190:14,
1
90:1 5
120:11,120:16,
'121:13, 129:1,
137:1
memorandum t 173:2
, 137:7,
M
machine Ir1 - 175:3 made-up ttl - 116:5 maintain Ij - 4814, 48:20, 48:22,62:17 maintained tsl 48:23, 49:21, 104:1,
142:17, 144:17,
144:24,145:5, 145:20,'145:25,
148:7, 151:2, '153:18, 184:25,
menpl-22:'13,
1 1
3:13
32:2,32:8,32:11,
32:14,32:24,33:9, 33:17,34:24,35:8, 72:17,73:1 ,78:16,
126:6,'127:5,
185:9,185:15,
186:11, 187:14
- 14:7, 14:'19,
106:1,185:7
14:20,32:12, '145:6,
160:20
127:10,127:12,
127'.16, 127:21 189:4, 189:8,
,
maintaining
45i24
r -
68:17,83:9,96:15,
115:8, 124:14, 151:20 leave trzl - 50:17,
173:17,173:19, 189:13,189:14,
190:6, 190:8, 190:10,'191 :'16, 191:18, 191:20,
192:1
27:24,31:12,37:21 , 74:17,84:16,88:22,
97:13,'109:2, 113:19, 125:11,
manager[2] -77:14,
77:18
,'192:5, 192:8,
micoltl -77:14
mid-1980s trl - 55:21 mid-20strt - 113:'13 mighttzl -26:22,
35:22 Mike trl - 8:16 mind t7l - 39:5, 46:12,
67:21
192:12, 192:24
71 :1,
179:1,190:13
meantlt - 176:19
mechanics r1 - 7:4 media tgl - 10:25,
24:21
,74:6, 74:7 ,
,33:16,34:3,
78:14,94:19
lil - 107:23
litigation
living
- 49:24,
marked ltl- 11:20 mass I1l - 12:7 material H- 14:4, 37:18,181:13 materials lol - 4:20,
- '14:10,
12
27:12,27:14,27:'15, 27'.20,27:22,29:1, 29:3,29:4, 49:4,
49:19, 51:7, 51:21, 52'.3, 52:14, 52:16,
56:1
109:22,109:24,
110:20,110:22,
't't1'.1, 11'.t:18,
'l'12'.2,
1 1
58:8,64:18,71:23,
71:25,72:20,72:25, 73:3, 73:8, 113:21,
114:9, 114:12, 114:19,1'14:24,
2:5,
1 1
2:8,
28'.4,29:21,29:25,
30:10, 30:12, 30:14, 30:19, 31:18, 31:21, 32:4, 32:16, 33:3, 33:6, 34:15, 34:17,
112:11 , 112:'17,
,70:22,72:22,
8l:3,8'l:12,99:13,
99:15,99:16,99:21,
109:11, 1'11:'17,
ll6:9,116:13,
118:4, 119:1 , 120:1 121:6, 126:5,
,
,96:7
27 -
115:1,115:5,'l 15:9,
104:8,
misstated
183:22
'116:19, 1'16:22,
113:9,116:17,
119:6, 120:5,
123:21 , 124:24,
'122:9,122:25,
123:2, 129:3
misstatement t 1
128:10,130:9, 130:15,131:1,
131:4, 132:2, '132:5,
30:1 0
monitors
'117:'l
21- 56:21
40:24,41:5,4'l:8,
44:7,44j12, 46:22, 47:3,47:5, 47:12, 47:15, 47:23, 49:11 , 49:13, 50:20, 50:25,
53:3, 53:6, 53:18, 53:24, 53:25, 54:1,
137:10,137:'15, 137:18,150:13,
176:23, 176:24,
132:7,133:4, 133:20,135:22,
135:24, 135:25, 136:2, 136:3, 136:5, 136:8, 136:12,
140:19,140:23,
141:11, 141:15, 142:2, 142:5,
misstating
tgl -
40:18,
52:12,52:25, 53:14,
54:11, 133:25,
54:3,54:5,54:7, 54:8,55:10,55:14,
55:15, 56:16, 56:18, 57:7, 58:14, 58:19, 59:8, 59:9, 59:10, 59:18, 59:20, 61:10, 61:15, 61:19, 61:22,
142:13,144:4,
145:11, 145:15, 146:7, 147:5, 147:9,
8:22,8:24,9:4,9:23,
10:21, 11:'17, 17:25,
18:'12, 151:'11
mistaken
138:25
pl-
1'17:15,
61:24,62:5,62:7,
63:25, 64:6, 64:8,
67:3,67:10,67:25,
68:9, 68:21 , 69:1 69:3, 69:5, 69:7, 69:20, 70:11 , 71:7
,
155:16,155:20, 162:11,162:16,
,
1:25
minor'strl-
151 :16
morning 1o - 145:6,
145:8,'147:13, 147:14,152:6,
I 59:1 9
molestation
59:17
r1
75:2,75:13,76:19,
79:10, 79:12,79:14,
79:'16, 79:'17 , 79:19 , 80:21 ,80:23,81:25,
mom
t1l
- 156:24
mornings
Ir1
- 162:8
momentltel - 5:23,
48:14,66:8,71:24,
,170:13,
82:2,82:23,83:'11,
83:18, 87:17 , 90:17 , 95:19, 95:21 , 95:23, 95:24, 96:1 , 96:2, 96:4, 96:8, 96:10, 96:1 9, 98:1 1 , 1 00:4,
79:8,84:4, 100:2,
103:13,104:9, 148:19,170:7, 173'14,177:24 Monday n - 4:16 monitors - 30:3, 58:24, 59:3, 59:12,
114:6
minutels -61:22,
73:21 ,'128:23,
171:11,171:13, 171:14,171:16,
'171:18,171:21 '171:25,172:5, '172:7, 172:'11, '172:14,'172:18, 173:1, 174:7
,
motiontzl -32:25,
102:14
169:2,'197:16
minutes rz - 168:25,
169:6, 169:8,
169:13,169:21, 'l7O:12,196:19,
'197:11 , '197:13,
172:21 , 172:22,
,
101:24,101:25,
102:1, 102:3, 102:6,
197:19,197:2'l
misbehavior
92:14
r1
20:24,21:7,22:13,
22:20,23:21 ,24:3,
25:5,26:16,26:20,
27:3,27:10, '114:'14
102:15,104:7, 104:9,104:10,
104:13, 104:15, 104:19, 104:21,
monitoring
+s -
4:18,4:19,5:24, 6:22,7:18,7:20,
7:21 ,7:23,8:'13,
104:24,105:7, 105:10,105:12,
105:20,'106:19, 1O7:4, 107:11, 107:13,107:14,
18:16, 19:4,22:9,
23:9,24:4,26:4, 28:6,28:11,28:13,
28:23,29:'10,29:14,
89:1
11:23,20:15,20:19,
109:15,109:19,
13
193:13,194:12,
194'.13,194:25, 195:5, 195:7,
1
50:1 0
129:13,136:8,
139:6, 140:25, 165:20, 182:8,
needsr- 130:11
never[1sl - 51:9, 60:5,
146:12,150:16,
195:25 onet44l -6:10, l3:16,
65:1 3
195:10,195:14,
195:16,'195:22, 195:23, 196:3, 196:4, 196:7, 196:8,
60:9,74:20,82:5,
85:.19,85:23, 125:5,
125:'12, 132:17,
201:5,201:6
o
z - 1'20,5:12 O'Rourke tzl - 59:'l ,
145:22, 182:20,
ODEGAARD lt-2:3, 8'.17, 197:'10, 197:20 Odegaard t1- 8:18 OF tel - 1:1, 1:2, 1:8,
196:10,196:14, 196:16,196:18,
196:20,'196:21
,
'l:8,3:3,3'.4,202:1
o'clock
59:4
202:2
197:12,197:14,
197:22, 197:24,
198:11,198:14,
198:'15, 198:16,
128'12, 129:13,
134:7, '135:18, 139:9, 139:21
,
56:16, 132:2,
140:25,143:6,
143:7, 146:14,
148:23,155:2,
'155'.22, 158:5,
,
offenders
22:1
fil
12:17
170:7, 173:23,
'197:'10,197:20
multiple
45:1 0
tzl - 34:2,
174:11,17416,
'174'.17,174:21 199:2
,
,24:3,
24:7
must
tgl
- 37:4, 137:6,
189:22,192:9
nighttrl - 5:12
nine Isl - 64:'10,
'127:20,128:1
offending
tst
10:12,
102:11,130:5,
198:25
N
N-i-e-n-s-t-e-d-t Itl 9:1 5
non-productions 7:1
106:19,130:9, 131:1,140:19,
'145"'l'l , 147:5,
ongoing
184:4
21
- 182:16,
,
open
1
I2l
198:21
name [13] - 8:9, 9:13, 15:15, 21:11 , 21:15, 24:14, 57:23, 59:2, 66'.6, 110:14, 134:2, 151:8, 153:6 names zr - l9:7, l9:15, 20:5, 20:10,
noncompliance
5:19
1r
none
[2]
66:13,136:25,
156:6, 156:7,
99:1 4
z
opinion
93:25
- 93:14,
I21
165:19,176:13,
188:23, 189:3,
1
88:1 3,
opportunity
169:25
- 53:9,
't99:7
95:1 9
s - 138:4,
normally
146:15
lzl
- '120:13,
officer
4:12,32:25 Notarytrl - 1:16 note trl - 101 :2 noted s1 - 100:10, 100:20,100:22 notes tsl - 35:5, 39:21, 156:10 North
tzt -
196:24,197:4,
197:8, 197:17, 197:25,'199:7, 199:25 objective ttl - 23:18 obligation t1l- 147:2 obviously gl - 6:19,
official
tet
54:21
55:2,'116:24,
nothing
fl
- 53:1 9,
138:17,152:8,
'152:9, 152:14, '152:15
100:18,101:11,
124:3, 153:5, 162:21, 168:17
186:11,202:9
ordering
175:2
lzl
'133:1 5,
113:23,185:13
occasions
Isl - 83:3,
2029 notified r - 'l 11:5 notifying tit - 182:1 noting trl - 201:5 notoriety Ir l - 32:1 0
numberzo - 8:7, 1O:9,23:7 ,23:8,
occur
t4l
- 18:6,
105'22,122:12, 143:7,163:13,195:4
otenfl-22i4
old trl - 141 :1
- 11:4,
16:3,'199:4
25:2,25:3,26:4,
31:6,74'.21 , I 00:16, 126:'10,126:12, 127:7, 128:5, 129:16,'143:5,
OLDttl- 1:24
oldertrl - 86:7 omissions Irl - 4:24 once [e] - 13:10,
30:24, 36:9, 48:9,
27'.9,28:24,28:25, 30'.2,38:7,71:18,
72:19,76:11,
143:10,143:20,
113:22,113:23,
176:13,176:19
1,4
overseeng own
[16]
t2l
33'.20, 48'.15,75:21,
23:20,26:8,30:1
159:2, 159:3
75:24,84:23,92:14,
121'.14,121:18, 121:19,136:22,
152:18,'157:1
,
148:6, 149:9,
150:12,150:16,
150:22,'154:22,
pickttl-'122:13
picture tll - 92:20 place tal - 8:8, 1 I 4:1 6,
114:23, 121:22,
'140:21
80:10,80:11,82:19,
133'.12, 133:14, 183:23, 195:9, 198:6, 199:25
188'j4,188:17,
190:20,191:2 particular Isl - 25:14, 40'.4,41:22, 103:17,
136:22
,150:18,
'121:16,129:18,
139:9, 157:9, ',l65:23, 166:4,
P
P-O-M-S
particularly
'153:12
ll
172:11,'176:20, 192:1,195:18
People Irl - 41:14 pertzl - 10:3, 161:17 percentlil- 185:16
163:25,165:15 placed lel - 35:4, 51:6, 52:13,65:21 ,86:24, 160:3, 173:l 1,177:2 Plaintiff tzl - 1:6,2:6
84:1 9
Policetrl -75:11,
86'.21, 91:16, 94:22,
97:13,97:14,99:5, 106:25,133:9,
168:14
lrl-
19:3
p.m
Ist -
4:16, 5:6,
136'.11
,167:10,
'170:15
page
I4t
174:1,
179:19,179:23,
201:5
parties Ist - 202:9, 202:11,202:14 party 16l - 24'.19, 41:2, 84'.9,121:16, 122:15,202:9 past Fl - 23:10,24:22, 57:1,180:18,
189:22, 193:6,
1
policeman
14:9
55:1
painting fi-62123
paragraph to 152:2'l , 153:2, 153:14,161:19,
'171:6, 177:17,
98:1 8
t16l
policy
- 17:5,
49'.21,68'.3,70:14, 166:1,166:3
POMES lrl- 19:1 POMStrst - 18:15, 18:22, 18:24, 19:3, 1 9:8, 1 9:1 3, 28:1 3,
pastor
- 26: I 3,
26:2'1, 50:9,60:23,
permittrt - 139:13
permits ttl - 146:20 persisted Ir1 - 32:18 person trzl - 59:l,
64:25,73:17,
136:23, 137:13, 140:7, 141:7, 164:5, '177:4, 181:21
,
178:20,179:12, 179:25,181:6,
181'.7,'182:8, 183:9,
56:13,59:1,72:3,
77:10,90:25,9'l:4,
97:3, 110:8, 111:5,
'148:17,156:2, 156:3,'165:3, 165:11, 167:23,
'193'.12, 197:18,
198:12
187'.5,191:14,
191 :15
pastors
59:1 5
el-
59:14,
Pates
I1
- 43:13,
174:23,175:23,
195:4
pornographic
88:4, 89:3
26j13,31:4,70:15,
7O:18, 112:23, 120:6, 120:15,
'123:1'l ,145:7,
8:22,8:24,9:3,9:22,
10'.20, 11'.17, 17:25,
18:12,75:11,86:21
person's t1l - 91:7 personal H- 21:25, 174:11,182:10 personality 1s 119:11, 119:14, 125:15 personally fal - 22:21
91:15,94:22,97:13,
97:14, 99:5, 106:25, 112:25,'133:9,
86'.14,86:22,87:6, 87:21,88:9,88:15,
89:1 9, 89:22, 90:1
,
143:14,148:13,
149:5, 149:11, 151'.11, 168:14, 202:4 PAUL tzt - 1:8, 1:25
44:3,44:17, 44:22,
76'276:3,84:11,
'152:22
90:5,90:7,91:10,
92:25, 93:13, 93:16, 93:19, 94:2, 94:4, 94:6, 94:11 , 94:17 ,
188:6,188:10
,45:24,56:25,
59:14,60:2,60:10, 60:24,70:16,81:7,
't14:4
paul
et
- 1:18,2:5,
parishionerlrl 174:13
,2:22
parishioners
rz1
66:16,66:22,67:23,
69:23
persons [3] - 31:13, 99:4,202:14 pertained trt - 39:1 pertaining rs1 - 5:9, 46'.25,68:15,72:'l 73:9,78:19,123:24, 129:20,137:14,
,
98:21,103:18,
103:21 ,104:1
,
104:6, 104:18,
104:20,104:25,
105:1, 106:2, 106:8,
poses
106:9,106:10, 106:14,106:15,
107:3, 107:15, 107:22,'121:24, '125:'17, '125:25,
pedophile
r1
- 114:1
pedophilia
69:23
16:18, 139:7,
159:25,162:1 '163:7,171:3,
183:3,183:14,
I 84:1 0
pewtrl - 33:16
146:18,'148:2,
15
82:5, 82:8, 83:8, 85:15, 105:23,
previousttl- 115:2
previously I1 - 1 5:1 , 85:16, 112:1, 113:16 priest lzt - 5:25, 12:5,
29:18, 39:6, 43:7,
'182:16
protocol pl - 9:17 ,
114:2O
problematic trl 1
145:25,183:16,
188:2
99:1
,
protocols
ll
- 189:7
36:6,37:17,38:2, 39:7,40'.13,61:24,
98:13, 99:24, 1 00:1 0, 1 04:1 I
110'.14, 113:21,
,
putting
6-
34:4,
providing
'112:1'l
tzl - 6:16,
37:14,62:2, '129:4
93:1 9
[1] -
4O:7,41:2,792,
79:23,80:18,80:19, 80:22,82:11,82:17,
106'.4, 114:20,
80:3, 80:25,
81 :9,
processes
194:21
publicloll- l0:10,
10:18, l1:9,13:13,
a
qualifications
|zl 108:23, 109:4 qualified tr1- 67:6 qualifies I+1 - 66:3,
105:6, 106:8,
160:16,160:19
108:25,109:1,
113:8, 128:3, 131:24,134:1 134:6, 134:16, ,
producing ttl - 6:6 productions ttl - 7:1 professionals tsl 88:9,'194:10, 194:23 program t33l - I 8:1 5,
18:23, 19:4, 19:9,
2916,31:2,3'l:22, 31:25,32:12,33:18,
34:6,34:20,34:21
36:8, 39:9, 56:4,
,
66:25,677,68:2
questionable Irl 175:8
pre-correction
168:23
I1l
65:20,73:11,73:'12,
predecessor
58:1, 58:3, 83:6, 137:5 premises pl- 111:11, 165:17 preparation 1e - 5:3,
a
73:16,74:10,74:20, 74:22,76:7,76:13,
76:16,76:22,77:6, 79:25,81'.8,81:12, 100:13,100:17, 101:9,101:10, 101 17,102:4,
102:16,'lO7:24,
questions
leo
53:21
18:17,18:'19, 19:7,
20:20,20:23,22:19, 23:7,268,26:25,
27:3,27:9,27:12, 27'.16,27:18,27:20, 28'.6,28'.10,28:14,
28:15, 30:2, 35:3,
61'.21,69:14,75:8, 100:18,101:12,
106:22, 116:4,
1195,167:25,
168:5, 168:8, 168:9,
392,39:4,42:'17,
46:4,49:4,49:5,
55:1 1, 63:7, 63:1 1,
,
168:19,168:20,
168:21, 169:1,
170:1,172:10,
'172:15, 175:'13,
175:15,175:16,
175:18, 182:9,
66'.1,69:22,7'l:25,
72:11,72:24,76:8,
151'.25, 161:5,
76:23,77:13,77:23, 77:24,78:4,92:15,
106:16,110:12, 110'.15,114:14,
127:8, 128'.4,139:8, '173:23, 173:24, 189:9, 189:14, 194:9 priests'111 - 85:6 primarily Irl - 125:14 primary s - 20:8, 23:18, 128:'15,
161:8,194:15,
1 99:1 4
prepubescentr 67:20
presence
I2l
- 12:8,
65:7 PRESENT trl - 2:23 present s - 36:21 , 37:2, 84:3, 156:8, 178:9
promise s - 68:18, 139:18,140:18 promised trl - 48:5 promises tsl - 1 7:1 70:12, 139:8 promoterls - 21:1, 21:8,57:19 prompted ttl - 57:13 proper Isl - 75:7, 96:16, '106:21 183:24,198:10
, ,
195:14,198:1,
198:9, 199:4
quietttl - 34:13
quinquennial
n
166:14,189:23,
192:9, 193:3
134:20,134:23, 135:1,135:3
quittrl - 104:10
quite
tzl
- 65:20,
128:17,139:7
93:21
presented
18:1
16:12,
priority
'129:13
tzl
- 45:23,
prosecution t 187:9
purpose
94:19
t2l
- 20:8,
quoted
fi-
166:12
purposes
1o - 4:4,
4:'14, 5:21
,7:4,
R
radar Irl - 43:6 raise Irl - 101:1 raised tsl - 59:25,
33:22,34:4,34:6
presumelrl- 57:17
presumption
146:14
r1
privileged
protecting protection
47i9
67:17,130:11, 165:7,'167:14,
169:20 pursuant21 - 1:14,
I 00:1
1
- 47:2,
pretty
I2l
- 76:25,
197:2
'154:'lO
prevent t - '152:21
- 65:5
117:16,118:5,
'l2O:7, 120:8 RAMSEY tzl - 1:2,
16
202:2 Ramsey Isl - 1:'16, rate re
181:.16
170:5, 170:15,
171:16,171:19,
'171:23,183:22, 184:'12,188:7,
rathertll - 155:1
- 20:8, 20:25,
188:15,188:17, 196:15,196:17,
197 14, 197:25,
148:1,149:8, 149:18,150:2,
150:22, 154:22,
21:'19,22:4,22:10, 136:24,137:7,
181:20
08:1
138:19,142:22,
'143:1, 148:11, '151'.12, 151:23,
re-offend l - 2O:8,
156:18,160:24,
16'l:20,16125,
-
5:l,
76:3,
85:21, 118:13,
120:2, 161:15,
161:16,161:23, 171:8,171:19,
172:3, 172:6, 172:24, 175'.10,
174:23,179:1 , '179:2, 179:6, 180:7, 182:2, 182:20 receiving ll - 65:22, 66:15, 78:8, 117:9, 180:8, 183:5 recentll - 74'.7
released fi - 32124 reliance ttl - 101 :8 relied trt - 101:12 ely j- 22:5 relying s - 89:23, 90:19,138:25 remaining tzl - 169:8,
169:22
156:17,158:11, 162:5,166:15,
167:20,167:22,
168:14,168:15, 173:8,175:19,
177:22, 178:2, 178:3,'178:4, 178'.11, 178:23, 180:16, 182:'15,
remarkstrl- 124:5
remember tztl - 20:3,
23:8, 37:25, 39:5, 59:2, 63:12, 63:15, 117:17,1'18:12,
reported
132:17,142:2,
142:4, 142:8,
redactions
6:1
121
- 4:24,
157:10,173:12,
182:21 ,183:1
,
101:10,108:19, 108:21,110:16,
'110:25,113:15, 113:'16,120:7, 121:11,121:12, 124:3, 124:4, 133:21, 135:14, '144:20,144:22, 145:1, 146:18, 147:25,150:'12,
163:'15, 163:16,
184:24,185:4,
'185:23,185:24
reference
- 173:5,
'173:10,'175:1
remove t3l - 45:6, 60:16,'136:20 removed 'tol- 12:10, 49: 1 9, 5l :8, 51 :1 2, 56'.'l ,72'.23, 76:11 , 81 :12, 109:11,
142:2'l
recollection
15:18, 17 16,26'.12,
zs
29:2,36:14,60:7,
60:21,62:14,72:14,
83:14, 84:17, 89:9, 94:5, 99:10, 108:22,
referring llil - 21113, 49:5, 59:19, 85:2, 91 :4, 1 76:1 5, 176'.17,178:1 , '190:14, 190:15,
197:'17
removing
81:2
t2l -
48:7,
163:19,166:14,
166:25, 180:25,
'l'l:22,28:3,36:2,
,
47:22, 55:9,57:6,
63:24, 69:19, 70:10,
73:19,73:24,76:24,
82:12, 85:15, 93:10,
75:22,75:23,83:20,
84:12,84:20,85:4, 87:21,88:1,90:8,
91
95'.4,97:24, 114:1
123:22, 124:10,
124:11 ,'169:4,
recommendations
- 45:20
record
12'l:5, 126:4,128:9,
133:3,'133:19, 135:18,142:'12, 144:3, 146:6, 147:8, 147:18,149:24,
173:3,'198:23,
4:4,4:7, 5:18,6:19,7:23,
so
registering
r -
91:22,91:25,92:9,
93:8, 94:16, 94:25,
199:1,200:4,201:7 reasonable t t 29:12,29:'15,94:3, 95:10, 95:11, 96:22, 96:24,97:4,97:8, 97:10,97:17 reasons I+l - 40:1,
67'.18, 116:2,198:21
60:13,7'l:16,75:2,
90:10, 90:11, 90:18, 91 :7, 95:20, 96:6, 97:21,'100:3, 100:24, 136:6,
reassign
181:21
Iz1
- 1 8l
:1
9,
156:12,156:15, 166:19,167:10,
167:13, 168:24,
139:25 regular27 - 21:4, 162:5 regulaly ltl - 21:2 rehabilitation trl 113:18 reinstated It1 - 137:16 reiterate ttl - 187:6 rejected ttl - 6:25 related It1 - 78: l1
162'.10,162:15, 163:10,167:5
REPORTERS
1:24
t11-
relating lzl-'121:15,
173:7
reassigning r1-
134:20,134:23,
I1
1
66:1 0
a
representation representations
136:24,'137:8,
137:21
143:14
School - 64:11,
,
t1l -
sequence
[4] -
190:5,190:17,
191:13, 191:2'l, 192:5, 192:7, 192:24
room
[s]
schools
45:25
lzl
- 23:16,
Restricted
n-
188:21
-23:5,26:9
representatives
140:14
t1l -
restrictions
tr I - 52:1 3
represented 10:18,49:9
8:10
121
representing
reprimanded
r -
result + - 22:16, 24:5,65:'17, 150:'10 results - 193:20 retained r,l- 176'12 retired Ist - 12:6,29:4, 64'.17,70:17 , 138:3, 138:14,168:15,
175:23, 185:11 retrieve trl - 43:19
Rourke
114:6
S
sabbatical trl 74:12, 81:15, 8'l:16, 81:21,84:2, 84:6,
99.2'1,99'.23, 177:1
,
20:10,20:12,20:13,
54:24, 108:2 sextl - 113:12,
177:2,'177:13,
184:11, 184:15, 184:16 Sacrament o - 60:23,
93:'16,94:4, 115:12,
171:5,174:1 , 181:7,
181 :10
113:20,113:24,
't18:1
,6:15, 104:21
1
- 157:12,
,
33:1
11'l'.25,112:15, 112:25,142:20,
148:8 safesr - 11:10, 11:'11, 1'l:13, 11:14, 11:18, 14:12, 14:19, 14:22, 15:5, 16:6,
'18:2, 18:11,20:2, 21'.2,2'l:8,23:17,
seconds pl-'170:12,
1
sexual sr - 37:18,
39:'l , 46:23, 48:18,
96:1 9
51:13, 54:22,55:4,
55'.13, 55'.22, 59:17
,
106:17,106:18, 106:23,158:23,
189:20
64:21,66:24,67:19, 72:1,73:9,73:13,
73.20,74:1,74:8, 76:'15,77:23,77:24,
review
secietary
fi-
126:25
78:4,78:19,79:25,
82:8,102:25, 103:4,
103:25, 105:5,
requirement 1
35:1 5
52:9,65:17,92:14,
94:15, 120:22, 193:17,193:25, 194:10,194:16,
,
108:6,108:17,
'110:18, 114:15,
115:11,118:10,
123:8, 123:14,
202:17
resigning 11-74:12
resisted
31:25
21
- 31:'14,
reviewed zl- 41:13, 41'.'14, 41:15, 41:19, 42:10, 42:15, 43:2, 43:24,44:2, 52:7, 52:21, 52:23,76:2, 94:9, 94:18, 98:6,
99:11
122:11,128:4, 157:12,158:'18,
159:5, 169:3, 172:3,
123:16,123:25, 124:3,124:24,
125:3, 125:5, 125:9,
4:1 6, 46:1
, 53: 1 3,
salelrl - 174:13
same-sex lsl - 113:20, 113:24,118:'l
Sarah lzl - 8:18, 164:18 SARAH lrl - 2:3 satisfied n - 44:4 saw I2l - 29:13,99:14
174:16,175:4, 191 11,192:8 seeing trl - 91:14 seeking ttl - 115:10 seem lsl - I 9:1 8, 35:13,94:2, 14'l:3,
178:'10
125:13,128:5,
134'.21, 182117, 185:3 sexuality tzl - 118:11,
'123:24
respecttrl - 100:7
respond
130:14
sexually
- 113:25,
el-
5124,
Isl -
segment tll - 167:17 Selvig tzl - 21:9, 59:3 seminars ltl - 129:10
1'19:22, 151:14
responsibilities
45'.11
, 50'.3,77:11
tsl -
responsibility
44:25,77:5,95:7,
120'.11,146:21
sent
tl
- 43:12,85:23,
'111:9, 113:17,
responsible trt - 61 :6
responsive
z
18'.10, 144:14,
160:23,179:16,
184'.1, 185:6, 191:21
restate
11
2:1 9
128:24,129:4, 181'.14,181:15, 189:9, 196:2 risks Irl -'183:14 risky trl - 194:18 Rochester ltl - 2:16
Rome
t4t
scandalous t 37:18
177:4, 178:1'l
restricted tr rl -
- 136:15,
125:'10,143:13,
sentence 1s1 - 178:19, 179:19,179:25, 18'l:7, 191:14 separate r - 106:16 September tsl - 61:1, '120:18,177:18,
138:1,139:1, 167:19,168:2,
18
169:7, 169:20, '170:2, 170:19, 171:3, 171:6, 174:3, 174:5, 177:5, SLI
l:
- 177:19,
SSTt2t - 134:17,
1
167:20
sued
s;
109'.12,
178:23,179:14,
182:15
35:1 5
ST tzl
St
179:13,180:4,
180:20, 181 :16,
- 96:13,
Statistcal trt - 67:15 status tsl - 60:1 , 64:16, 117:11, 118:18,162:3 statute tsl - 140:2,
140:4, 146,20,
147'.2, 147:6
80:2
suggested
1
t1l -
58:1 6
something's ttl 81
suggesting r193:22
:13
75:10,86:21,91:15,
94:22,97:13,97:14,
99:5, 106:25, 111:25,'112:25,
118:6, 118:13,
'120:2, 120:7,
somewhatltl- 119:8
somewherer'l 1 5:15
statutes ttl - 88:8 stay ttl - 196:16 step 111 - 73:14 stepped tlt - 73:18 stepping pj - 73:24,
73:25
summary
183:15,186:23
shorttrl-
16:20,24:25, 51:25,
113:3, 134:9 show a1 - 11:20, 142:9, 144:9, 145:13, 146:4,
147:16,170:24,
187:1
soon [4] - 12:9,51:4, 70:22,88:18 sooner [1] - 1 63:1 6 sorry t14l - 18:21 , 29:11,31:23,37:8, 38:7 , 62:19,7O:25, 80:21 , 100:6, 109:16,131:19, 133:17 , 140:1 , 148:2
123:15,'123:20,
124:5, 124:11, 133:9, 151 :11, 168:14,'174:5,
supplied
187:16
l- 151:14
I1l -
showed
a - 85:25, 86:2,'186:10
177:20,178:3, 180:5,202:4 stable ttl - 125:'15 staff t12l - 14:7, 14:10, 14'.15, 24:25, 111:6, '124:20,126:15, 129'.11 , 164:9,
17621 ,180:13, 187:10
60:10,68:16
supported
88:1 8
swprisey|63:21
122:7
I 93:1 9
153'.20,154:15,
154:'16, 161:10, 202:16 signal tr1 - 8'1 :12 signature r - 154:14 signed zl - 21:20, 114:9, 114:11, 153:2'l, 153:25, 154:9, 161:9 signs tzl - 78:10,
1
standard l+l - 48:21 , 48'.23, 48:24,82:1'l standards Itl - 80:14 stands trl - 27:7 startlTl - 4:3,58:2,
152:11, 169:17, 170'.18, 196:22, 198:22 started tt1 - 92:l 1 startng trl - 100:8
stop
tel
18:21
,57:8,
110:4
62:5
6, 61 :1 7, 62:8,
suspected
142:24
62:11
suspended
'137:10
t1
2:8,2:'12,2:16,2:20
study tzl -'17:12,
78:1 0
starts trl -
181 :8
suspicions
I+l
- 88:2,
35:1 8
Iz1
similar
182:12,
187'.15
speaks
ltl-
specifically
147:6 21 -
state s - 7:9,8:4, 9:12, 9:20, 10:9, 69:2, 104:16, 136:21,151:18, 168'.24,173:16, 181 :6, 183:9
STATE tzl - 1:1,202:1
stuffttl - 186:24
style
11l
- 77:15
subjecttst -35:22,
38:4, 163:8
submitted \zl-75:10,
93:12
Statetrl-l:17
statements -21:20, 62:4,111:20,
161:18, 190:2
subordinates
sisterltl - 15:14
Sistertrl - 15:15 site Irl - 178:9 situation lal - l8:18,
19'.25,25:11,30:4,
43:14, 110:4, 124'.17, 166:2 situations Isl - 20:6,
speculating
SUTTERtIl - 138:9 swear r - 9:6 switched ttl - 100:9 sworn t3l - 9:8, 201:23,202:5 system tgl - 18:'16, 28:13, 129:3
T
:'l
4,
subsequently
90:24, 120:12,
127:20,'149:2,
spenttll - 197:16
spiritual
tsl - 21 :5,
states tsl -
51 :1 0,
154:7,163:19,
163:23
tapefttaxation
14O:9
113:22,123:19,
149:6, 149:22 ss Ir1 - 202:l
173:2, 182:9,
139:1 3,
72:12,72:13,72:14,
99:23, 181 :23
182:15,187:13
stating
tzl
- 85:12,
team
- 22:19,
t9
29'.13,34:8,34:14,
34:19, 39:8 132:25, 170:'11, '174:12, 174:14,
trips
t2t
- 143:3, 143:9
upt24t - 713,34i14,
7O:7
91:11,101:20,
114:8, 114:22,
tendency j- 202:15 tenure tsl - 10:8, 30:16, 110:23 term trl - 97:17
termination
t2l
57 '13,'131:23
151:20,188:4, 201:4,202:7 trusttl - 95:13, 95:15,97:19, 165:23 trustees tel - 26:1 3, 26:21,31:4, 46'.16,
116:21 ,1'17:4,
two-and-a-half
tgl -
197'.10,197:12, 197:20
truth
urging
U
U.S
71:24,90:2,96:20,
117:3, 121:2, 139:3, 139:4, 166:22,
testified m - 9:9,
39:12,115:18,
155:6, 168:7, 168:9, 193:3 testify ttl - 155:7 testimony Ii61 - 25:9, 60:5, 60:8, 72:16, 148:2'l , 155:25, '167:18, 168:11,
168:13,169:23,
189:25
Irt- 17:9
Van
V
Iz1 - 4:11,32:25 various o; - 17:14, 27:21 , 56:25 , 77 :12, 77:13, 174:2 verbal 21 - 16:10,
49:16,68:19,68:24,
70:13
22:23,23:9,24:3,
16:11
Tom
21
- 8:23, 91:9
172'.14, 194:11,
24:16,26:4,28:10,
28:23,29:9,29:'14, 29:18,3O:2,33:7, 45:17,57:18,58:8,
170:20,170:22, 189:25,193:16,
199:3, 199:22,
195:1,195:10,
, 198:8 Tuesday lrl - 162:8
195:1
1
56:1
202:6,202:7 THE tzl - 7:17,71:9 themselves tsl - 8:12, 76:4,92:16 therapy 1s - 21:4, 113:22,123:19
turn
- 82:13, 86:10,105:22,
t17l
66:12,67:7,67:15, 68:2,71:3,81:19,
100:10,100:19,
101:22, 102:5,
VG's lrl
- 188:22
,
106:5, 106:9,
thereabouts
'17:20
11l
102'.7,102:8, 102:9,
102:1'l , 109:17,
116:25,126:25,
143:15,188:22,
189:2
109:23,110:18,
110:23, 128:21, 129:3, 134:17, '135:'15, 139:22, 182:7, 184:18,
topic tzl - 60:6, 85:7 topics trt -'124:2'l total I2l - 30:4, 197:16
Towe L'tl - 2:12 track Izl - 197:15,
197:22
49:'19,75'.15,75:20,
75:25,82:24,86:13,
86:20, 90:21, 90:24, 91:12, 94:11 , 98:20,
188:16,188:17, 194:21,202:6
thinking
trained
fi-
194i23
100:14,103:18,
103:21
training
tsl - 78:9,
,103:25,
152:20
188:9,188:12
- 72:12,
thirty
tz:
72:14
thirty-sixt2t -72:12,
72:14
transparent
33:1 4
t1
I-
145:20,174:22,
187:7, 192:23
unless
- 106:5,
treatment
11t
- 182:20
131:25
- 1:9,
2:11,2:15
unofficial
l- 152:8
95:1 9
e
twice
- 75:11,
13:22,
triggered
n-
62:11
92:13
unquote t1l - 151:2O unseal trl - 32:9 unstable lgt - 119:8, 'l'19:11,121:23
89:13,92:3,94:14,
106:25
s - 88:19, 89:7,99:21 viewing lrl - 87:19
viewed
tripttl-
121'21
twopal-
untimely
l- 198:24
20
vigorously l2l- 31i14,
185:25 107'.8, 110:24,
111'.10,111:14,
112:22, 113:1'l, 'l'13'.17, 114:23, 116:'16,119:12,
- 198:12
119:15,120:22,
121'.7,123:5,
writing
39:7
37:14,37:17,38:2,
133'25,134:4,
134'.8,141'.21,
violations
written
6:1 3,
142:20,142:23,
14311,144:25, 145:6, 145:10,
187:14
51 : 16,
Y
year
tel - 9:23,25:2, 25:3,45:3,74:21 ,
Vomastek
tal
- 11'l :9,
142'.'19, 144i'17,
166:15,187:15,
187:19,199:21
.100:16,120:19, '124'.14,139i23
Wehmeyer's
W
wait
I4l
yearslill -30:22,
30:24,32:20, 45:12,
49:'1,112'.1,113:16,
115:5,123:18,
137'.10,141:'l
- 96:'1, 96:5,
21- 184:5,
wherewithal
'175:24
ttl -
169'.2, 196:2
waiting
193:20
wholetrot -35112,
63:9, 78:6, 90:20, 90:21 , 90:23, 98:5, 125:13,155:1 ,2025 WIESER lg: - 2:11, 8:23, 195:22, 196:7, 197:14, 197:22, '198:1 1 , 198:16,
1
80:1 8
yourself Itl - 41 :1
Wajde lrt - 135:21 walk ttt - 121:24 wanna Irl - 135:4 warn lrl - 119:2 warned lzl- 45:14,
197 5
99:1 6
z
Wieser
- 8:23, 91 :9
youth
tr1
- 120:23
Washington trl132:14
z
[s] - 17:5,17:9, 48:17,49:8,49:16,
04:1 6
withhold 4 - 104:5,
107:2 WITNESS rq-7:17,
42:17,72:8,72:18 week tsl - 6:3, 6:4, 88:22, 120:18, 143:5 weekends t - 12:7 weekly t1- 162:7 weeks tl - 42:6, Wehmann
107:1, 107'.5, 107:16 [z] -
Wehmeyer
DECREE
Therefore, in acoordanco with,tho forcnontioned canon, I deoroe that an inqu.lry be done into the.facts and ciroumstansos of this aaousation, as well.as its imputability toFaiher Wohmeyor.
Slnco rny othor
tlr
is invostigation personally,
I he,appoint
ofthe
doctrmontst$o.
[5#g-
i$3.4-
- t57f), to obtain:imyn'ocersary
oxper'ls degmed'necFssary,{ce"
f574.- I 58I),
andi'..t0av,encess to.iplaces
his.investigation.
\{';Olut) u
viJa'tq.his
ntsrfsre lvi
rna,tco
'
\lith:in'thitfy,days, ofthei.suanue.'of.dib,deoueo,.Father.Ird'is to
a.preliminary written
ss
of
appointrnent.
"f
Do*'/
3J*
(,v tg
ARCH-000236
Reverend DanielBodin
Ecclesiastical Notary
oFFItE br
ru nnr.ctuoR
AncHorocESE
MEnONeNDUM
Date February q20L2
ii
To:
Iron:
Re:
,
Jeriilfei,'Hselbeiger
.neverdn
at
onathan Shelley
Archbishop,
.the.question bf'a. future assigrunent Jor Eather
was ma deon
'
Your,deiision to apioinf Eather Shelley in this'matter was b.ased on a psychological report condctid'by )ay-MNamara, This rqport.fous on leadership issues in Father Shelley's prevcius,assig4ments, fhefore, the support an< accountability plan was focused on {eveloing iedrhip skilis in Father
thllt"y.
Whawgs only.riefly {Irded, to in.ths reiiortis Fathe Shelley's misconduc which was discoVred. i Z'OO+,tih" ieson that:ths f,rraS not given more attention n 2008 only becme clear 'there 'misconduct in Father Shelley's green Personnel file, s efrence to .the recertly. For, whil the dtailed inforrhation ielating to the mis,conduct, including the investigator's report, was one
,
ofllS'restricted fles'that wcre archived (ineaning moved to the babement without reference to it beingplacecl in the ersonnel fles) in the early rnonths of 2008. Therefore, when you were making the decisioii to appoint Fa.ther Shelley in 200& neither you nor the staff advising you was aware that additional inJcjrmation existed. We have only recently'discovered' these archived files, I have attached the list of files that were moved to the achives, although we have not been able to locate all of the files on the list'
the
reason tat I reconmend that this matter go before the Clergy Review Board is as follows'
226SummitAvenue
T: 651.291'4437
I F: 651.290.1
629
www.archsom.orq
haselbergeri@archsprh.org
x 3g
AncHDIocESE
oF-
.___S.A.|.N
T_
_pA.t,J.L. .&
MINNEAPOLIS
'it,
..:
'.
','M"nyof'the'homsexulpoiiriigt'Pi''itimages.viewedby:ihiiiltvirHgator
"'i
...
; ,
:and'lhe corlrputr'analyst
'
,ti
of
'.'i
.,il"r"
;.nna
I '"usd by another
well
examined before the computer itself hacl beerr is not occ leiter of referral that'this assessment since the conrptrter was has not been assessed by sLI relrospect, premature. Father sheliey borderline illegal' cleternrined to have images that were
226SummitAvenue lsaintpaul,MN55102
AncnolocESE
-sA-l-N-T--P'A
oF-
fte
i.o tt
chrch, an civil
law
to bc eqtrivalent considers.accessing rornograpltic inrages of ninors chilil rgitrf" o."otions tltat a cleri ha' acccsseicl
,i
.,
hvi:acccss to the l-loivevcr, no.w tha[yotr -.;,' I thi DVDs of [irentate:ia iliat'lvau fo,rrcl on te t:oniutcr)
ilfonnatioir'that
ationb:
,:.
.
2.
for a econd. ev-aluaqon, Bt SI'I' , Bsed on 'the reul.ts of.the aove; send' athilSf,en"y and without the infor.mation discoveed dring both'*a1yseS
provicling tl\em with
hetment t'aitdess
this.
setting limitation's on their assessment or iepdrt' to the Clergy RevieW Board for its review O.- Send all of the information or Father Shligy
, and ecommeirdation. 4.
Faith.
the.
pec'on{
tT
t!iti:n',Y,9'
.thismsttertotheCongregationfortheDochiriofthe.
whnthe ciustion arose as to whethr shared this information with Father Laird last July parishes in centerville' However' With Father sheltey would be made pastor of the merg'd tew assignnrent for him' I thought itwas your recent request to the CAB that they consider a importnt to bring this to your atterrtion as soon as possible'
Thank you,
MNNonaNDUM
f)nte: To:
Frort; Rel
INNEAPOLIS
Jennifer Haselberger
Father )on Shelley
Archbishop,
I cornpletely
rlirsa5r:ce
characteiznti<r of thc irnages as 'rlot pornographlc' altd, sincc lhese lntnges wete downloadccl (saved) to a ltald drivc by Fnther Slellcy, I clisa$ree tha[ thcse werc pop-up acls meant to c.ntice
l'riln
t<
view pornograpliy rathel than image,s that he perccivecl to be ancl used as poinography.
.same lmages
cnse be
assenblecl ancl sttbmittecl in the sarne format t'lrat was used for,Fathers Welrmeyer and Walsh, including using the tenrp.lates c'entcct by thc CDI for thcse pnrposes ancl irrcluding all of the other cotrcct'trs lhat lrave bcc'n rRised regarclhrg Father Shelley and his nternctions with ninors, My urrclelstancllng wns that I wns to wait for; Ftrther McDonough's report to assenrble the
tecessly clocunoutatiorr
aclvisel'l you how to proceed irr tlrle rtratter, Father Shellcy ouglrt not to receivc an assignrrrent,
I woulcl
als<l
poirrt out trat thls nratter has nc.vor lreen brouglrt befole the Clergy Rcview
Boar.cl.
frl' llatlrqr
t<,
reiterate
cnfol'come,nt for t'hei'determinntiqn, in the lrope.s of avoicling ptos(crrti()r for you anc yout
similar
crf tJre
nsse$slrent of lather Wehmc'yer. IIls corrclusion, whlch Father Lnircl supptx'tccl, wns ihat therc
lo tl$ cnployecs
nJ,l
that lterested ln
qg
AncnprocESE
M
INNEAPOLIS
n crchrrl sexual eroounter' ancl 'thcre hog neve,beun a queatlr' o[ Fthgr Welrmeyer
'rnlcusing his position as a priest to obtn [sexual) favo,. ,fron those to whon he mlnlstrrs'. Iu ndditlon tb beng n fnctunlly innceurntc r?countlng of Fntfrer Wehrreyey's histoty of seoking
sexual encourrlsrs, Iather lvlcDopugh'c assensrnent of Fatber Welrrreyc/ lntereet ln ard
likellhood of engaging ttl exua behavlor hno been pruvan to be hnglcally wrong. lhe facl thnt
Fnthel' MrDrrnorrgh set aslde the trcornmcndatlors of dre Revlcw Boud und othcre ncl did not compleh lhe rccomenped clscloaure at Fnthel lilehnreverb-[Sq$c#t wlfl pmve to bc extreme
cgtly and embanrlastng fo'Fathel McDorough, the Athdlo, and, I om afi'afd, yor should
p'rue n civll c"' I strongty encourcge you to conplcler whether you hnve t obligotlon to noHfy the Universlty of StThorae ol thls llkolihood, and whethcryou con lrust
lotrgr.
Thank you.
22 Srrmmlt Avspe
Fl 051.290.1s
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