Klayman V Judicial Watch Miller Deposition Pt. 1

EXHIBIT 1
Case 1:13-cv-20610-CMA Document 127-1 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/27/2014 Page

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In The Matter Of:
LARRY E. KLAYMAN
v.
JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.
___________________________________________________
GEORGE MILLER Vol. 1
May 23, 2014
___________________________________________________
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GEORGE MILLER - 5/23/2014
1-800-325-3376 www.merrillcorp.com/law
Merrill Corporation - New York
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
LARRY E. KLAYMAN, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
-vs- ) CASE NO.
) 13-20610-CIVJUDICIAL
WATCH, INC., ) ALTONAGA/Simonton
)
Defendant. )
_________________________________)
DEPOSITION OF GEORGE MILLER
FRIDAY, MAY 23, 2014
7:40 a.m.
REPORTED BY: ERIKA SJOQUIST, C.S.R., R.P.R., C.R.R.
C.S.R. No. 12350
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1 DEPOSITION OF GEORGE MILLER, VOLUME 1, TAKEN AT 7:40
2 A.M., FRIDAY, MAY 23, 2014, AT 5700 RALSTON, SUITE 100,
3 VENTURA, CALIFORNIA, BEFORE ERIKA A. SJOQUIST, C.S.R.,
4 R.P.R., C.R.R., C.S.R. NO. 12350, CERTIFIED SHORTHAND
5 REPORTER, IN AND FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
6
7
8 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
9
FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
10
LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ.
11 ATTORNEY AT LAW
IN PRO PER
12 2520 CORAL WAY, SUITE 2027
MIAMI, FLORIDA 33145
13 310-595-0800
LEKLAYMAN@GMAIL.COM
14 (VIA VIDEO CONFERENCING)
15
ALSO PRESENT: DINA JAMES, PARALEGAL TO MR. KLAYMAN
17
FOR THE DEFENDANT:
18
SCHWED KAHLE & KRESS, P.A.
19 DOUGLAS J. KRESS
ATTORNEY AT LAW
20 11410 NORTH JOG ROAD, SUITE 100
PALM BEACH GARDENS, FLORIDA 33418
21 561-694-0700
DKRESS@SCHWEDPA.COM
23
24
25
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Page 3
1 I N D E X
2 DEPONENT EXAMINATION PAGE
3 GEORGE MILLER (MR. KRESS) 5, 135
(MR. KLAYMAN) 128
4
5
6
7 E X H I B I T S
8 NO. PAGE DESCRIPTION
9 Exhibit 1 95 Cuyahoga County Court of Common
Pleas Criminal Court Division,
10 True Bill Indictment for Criminal
Nonsupport - F5
11 State of Ohio vs. Larry Klayman
12 Exhibit 2 82 Cuyahoga County Prosecutor web
page - Press Release -- 2/3/12
13
Exhibit 3 95 Court of Common Pleas Division of
14 Domestic Relations Cuyahoga
County, Ohio, Case No. DR07
15 316840, Judgment Entry
Re: 7/28/2009
16
Exhibit 4 96 Court of Common Pleas Division of
17 Domestic Relations Cuyahoga
County, Ohio, Case No. DR07
18 316840, Judgment Entry
Re: 7/2/2010
19
Exhibit 5 102 Case No. DR07 316840, 2/22/2010
20 Capias Ordered for Plaintiff
Larry Elliot Klayman
21
Exhibit 6 24 2/8/2012 e-mail from Larry
22 Klayman to George J. Miller, re:
Retention Agreement with Klayman
23 Law Firm
24 Exhibit 7 40 5/7/2012 e-mail string between
George Miller and Larry Klayman
25 Re: Voeltz vs. Obama, et al -
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1 Exhibit 8 37 7/23/12 Klayman Law Firm Billing
Statement
2
Exhibit 9 43 9/12/12 e-mail from Larry Klayman
3 to George Miller, re: Retention
Agreement with Klayman Law Firm
4
Exhibit 10 5 Conwebwatch web page - "Larry
5 Klayman, Failed Lawyer" - 8/10/12
6 Exhibit 11 5 The Nation web page - "Klayman
Watch" - 7/10/07
7
Exhibit 12 5 Miami New Times web page - "Larry
8 Klayman, Conservative Wingnut
Lawyer, Gets Reprimanded By
9 Florida Bar, Is Broke" - 11/1/11
10 Exhibit 13 5 Renew America web page - "The
good virgin's birther case" -
11 12/8/12
12 Exhibit 14 47 Orly Taitz, Esquire web page -
"My yesterday's presentation to
13 CCIR and update on
article2SuperPAC-Larry Klayman
14 $25,000 fundraising for
non-existent law suit affair" -
15 2/23/2012
16 Exhibit 15 104 Orly Taitz, Esquire web page -
"Clarification regarding
17 article2legal fund and Larry
Klayman" - 2/26/2012
18
19
20 INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER: 15:20, 16:17, 19:20, 20:2,
20:9, 83:17, 87:17, 87:24
21
22
23
24
25
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1 VENTURA, CALIFORNIA
2 FRIDAY, MAY 23, 2014
3 7:40 a.m.
4
5
6 (Exhibits 1 - 15 premarked before deposition.)
7
8 GEORGE MILLER,
9 HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN BY THE REPORTER, WAS
10 EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MR. KRESS:
15 Q Good morning, Mr. Miller.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q My name is Doug Kress, and we met via video
18 conference just a few minutes ago. I represent Judicial
19 Watch in a lawsuit filed by Larry Klayman. And this
20 morning, I'm going to take your deposition.
21 And since we are doing this by video
22 conference, it's important that we take our time and try
23 not to speak at the same time because that would become
24 confusing for both of us and difficult for the court
25 reporter. And I'll ask you to follow that rule as well
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1 as a few additional ground rules.
2 If I ask you a question, please answer it out
3 loud and clearly so we can all hear you and so the court
4 reporter can take it down for the record. If the
5 question calls for a "yes" or "no," please try to say
6 "yes" or "no" as opposed to "huh-uh" or "uh-huh" because
7 those get confusing.
8 If you do not understand me, do not answer the
9 question. Tell me you don't understand, and I will
10 rephrase it so you do understand. Uhm, if you should
11 need a break for any reason, let us know, and we will
12 let you take a break.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do all the rules sound fair and reasonable to
15 you?
16 A They do.
17 Q Okay.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: And I might add, Mr. Miller, I'm
19 counsel for myself, pro se, Larry Klayman, as you know.
20 Before you ask a question, pause to give me an
21 opportunity to object if I need to make an objection.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: And try to look into the camera
24 as much as you can.
25 BY MR. KRESS:
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1 Q What is your address, Mr. Miller?
2 A 2041 Jamestown Way, Oxnard, California.
3 Q And how old are you?
4 A Sixty-six.
5 Q Can you tell me about your professional
6 background or work experience? I'll let you just tell
7 me instead of trying to ask you a bunch of questions
8 about it.
9 A I'm retired now, but originally, I was a
10 mechanical engineer and transitioned into manufacturing
11 operations in the 1960s; worked in the consulting field
12 for firms like Booz Allen Hamilton in New York.
13 I came out to California in 1980 to run an
14 operation locally, and started my own business in 1986
15 and ran that until I retired around 2010.
16 Q What was the name of your business?
17 A I had two businesses; one was Proaction
18 Management Consultants, and one was The Facilitative
19 Group, both involved in similar businesses of operations
20 management consulting.
21 Q Proaction Management & Consultants, and what
22 was the other one?
23 A Proaction, not "proactive."
24 Q Okay. Proaction Management Consultants?
25 A Proaction, T-I-O-N.
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1 Q Okay. I think that's what I'm saying.
2 A Okay. It's not coming across.
3 Q Management Consultants?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And the other one was the --
6 A Facilitator.
7 Q -- Facilitator Group?
8 A Facilitator Group, correct.
9 Q What was the nature of the business of
10 Proaction Management Consultants?
11 A Operations management consulting and related
12 business systems.
13 Q What's that mean in lay terms?
14 A Operations management consulting is the science
15 of managing a manufacturing business and all the related
16 systems required to provide the information to support
17 that.
18 Q Okay. And what -- what was the nature of the
19 business of The Facilitator Group?
20 A It was almost identical.
21 Q So, also operations management?
22 A Consulting, right.
23 Q Were both businesses located in California?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did they operate outside of California?
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1 A Mostly outside of California and outside of the
2 USA.
3 Q Okay. Did they operate in Florida?
4 A We have done work in Florida.
5 Q What kind of work have you done in Florida?
6 A Mostly --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Relevancy.
8 THE WITNESS: -- onsite analyses of
9 manufacturing firms, providing information on operations
10 management, and consulting in compliance with government
11 contracting regulations related to finance and
12 operations.
13 BY MR. KRESS:
14 Q Okay. So your education I believe is as a
15 mechanical engineer?
16 A That's right, originally. And then I took some
17 business courses subsequently since I drifted into
18 business in the late 1960s.
19 Q And you retired in 2010, you said, correct?
20 A Yes. I actually kind of phased my work out
21 because I was spending more and more time on political
22 activism and less and less time on work, and I just
23 thought it was more important. So I stopped working and
24 focused on this just about exclusively.
25 Q Okay. So now, do you consider yourself to be a
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1 political activist?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Tell me the nature of your activities as a
4 political activist?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: And George, I instruct you just
6 to answer the questions that he's asking you, okay?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: I originally started off in about
10 -- in 2008 or 2009, I was very upset because of the
11 economic crash and the huge detrimental effect it had on
12 my investments. So I started studying why that occurred
13 and how the markets were made to crash, how real estate
14 crashed, how the stock market crashed, how currencies
15 were manipulated, and how that related to election
16 politics. And I concluded that some of that really
17 didn't have to occur at all.
18 And then after that, the national election came
19 up, and Obama was elected. And during my studies, I
20 found out this was really not a good guy to be running
21 the country at all. So I began to actively oppose that
22 at the national level, and that's really what led me,
23 ultimately, to meet -- to meet Larry Klayman.
24 I also, when this tea party movement started in
25 2009, I joined a tea party initially to take action. At
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1 that time, people weren't very politically
2 sophisticated. We were mostly new to this. We knew
3 nothing about what was going on at all. That was quite
4 an eye opener. I subsequently started the Ventura
5 County Tea Party later in 2010. And part of our
6 activity is that the membership voted that we should
7 investigate Obama more thoroughly, which we did. And in
8 carrying out the wishes of the membership, we,
9 ultimately, worked on engaging Larry to support some of
10 the cases at the national level as well.
11 And then I was also involved in local politics,
12 being involved -- working with one of the major
13 political parties, the Republicans. You know, they were
14 both pretty bad, but Republicans looked a little -- a
15 little less worse. And I was a state delegate. I was a
16 member of different political organizations. I
17 campaigned for various candidates. I wrote publicity
18 for various candidates.
19 And then last year, we -- we ended up starting
20 a newspaper because we felt there really wasn't good
21 news in Ventura County at all. And I spend a lot of my
22 time on that now as well.
23 BY MR. KRESS:
24 Q What's the name of the newspaper?
25 A CitizensJournal.US.
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1 Q Is it an online paper then --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- or is it a -- okay.
4 A It is online.
5 Q And what is your role in the Citizens Journal?
6 Are you publisher or?
7 A I am the publisher.
8 Q Have you been elected to any political offices?
9 A I don't really have the -- the demeanor or the
10 desire to be in elective office. I work behind the
11 scenes.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: George, when I question asks for
13 a "yes" or "no," just give a "yes" or "no."
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's what I'm directing you.
16 BY MR. KRESS:
17 Q Mr. Miller, are you represented by counsel for
18 the purposes of this deposition?
19 A I'm sorry. For what? For this deposition?
20 Q For this deposition, are you represented -- are
21 you represented by counsel?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll stipulate to that. He's
23 represented by me.
24 BY MR. KRESS:
25 Q So, it's your belief you are represented by
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1 Mr. Klayman in this matter?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: For purposes of the deposition.
3 THE WITNESS: For this deposition. I don't
4 feel he, you know, he's representing me as a client or
5 anything like that. But I've been in contact with him
6 about it, and we have similar interests in this matter.
7 BY MR. KRESS:
8 Q Are you -- are you compensating Mr. Klayman for
9 his assistance to you in this deposition?
10 A No.
11 Q Paying him?
12 A No.
13 Q Is he paying you in any fashion for testimony?
14 A No.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let you answer that.
16 That's a totally objectionable question,
17 Mr. Kress. It invades the attorney-client privilege and
18 invades work product.
19 MR. KRESS: Well, are you his -- are you
20 stating --
21 MR. KLAYMAN: He just answered the question.
22 You can go on, Mr. Kress.
23 MR. KRESS: Are you stating you are his
24 attorney?
25 MR. KLAYMAN: For purpose of this deposition,
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1 yeah, I just stipulated to that.
2 MR. KRESS: Okay. Are you his attorney for
3 purposes of trial?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I will be representing him for
5 purposes of trial in terms of objecting to your
6 questions, yes, because I'm a plaintiff pro se. And I
7 have a right to object to the questions.
8 MR. KRESS: I understand you have a right to
9 object, but --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not being deposed,
11 Mr. Kress. Move on.
12 MR. KRESS: I'm just -- I'm trying to determine
13 whether I should ask questions. Like, for instance --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's as far as you are going to
15 get because you are getting into attorney-client
16 privilege.
17 MR. KRESS: All right. Well, I'm going to ask
18 this question. I'm sure you are going to object and
19 instruct him not to answer, but...
20 BY MR. KRESS:
21 Q Before the deposition began, you stepped out
22 and spoke privately to Mr. Klayman, correct?
23 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer that, George, but
24 not the substance of the conversation.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, he approached me about the
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1 trial and asked me if I would --
2 MR. KLAYMAN: No, no. That calls for a "yes"
3 or "no," George.
4 MR. KRESS: Well, and I'll get into that later.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: When a question asks "yes" or
6 "no," you respond either "yes" or "no."
7 THE WITNESS: Would you ask the question again,
8 Mr. Kress?
9 BY MR. KRESS:
10 Q I will, yes.
11 Before we began here, we were sitting in the
12 room, and then Mr. Klayman called you privately, and you
13 went and stepped into another room and spoke to
14 Mr. Klayman, correct?
15 A I did, yes.
16 Q What did you talk about?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not -- instruct you not
18 to answer.
19
20 (Witness instructed not to answer.)
21
22 MR. KRESS: All right. We may address that
23 later.
24 THE WITNESS: May I say something? May I say
25 something?
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1 MR. KLAYMAN: No, you may not.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay. It's really quite simple.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I instruct you not to answer.
4 Okay. That's work product, attorney client.
5 MR. KRESS: Uhm...
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Just answer questions.
7 THE WITNESS: Which question?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: There's no question pending.
9 MR. KRESS: There's no question pending, but
10 one will be coming.
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q When did Mr. Klayman first approach you about
13 testifying in this case?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not to respond to that.
15 George, you are not to respond to that. Okay?
16
18
20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's attorney-client privilege.
21 MR. KRESS: I think we might to have the court
22 intervene. This is a witness.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: That -- I'm representing him for
24 purposes of this deposition.
25 MR. KRESS: All right. We -- I'm going get
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1 through the substance of it, and then we may have to
2 call --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: We can talk about it, but get
4 your questions out there.
5 MR. KRESS: Because he's a -- he's a -- he's a
6 witness. I mean, you can't prevent me from finding out
7 what was discussed with the witness by saying there's an
8 attorney -- you are his attorney.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I can because that's
10 attorney-client privilege, Mr. Kress.
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q Do you have any type of fee agreement or
13 retainer agreement with respect to -- with Mr. Klayman
14 with respect to this deposition or the testimony at
15 trial?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer that.
17 THE WITNESS: We have no financial agreement.
18 BY MR. KRESS:
19 Q Any written agreement whatsoever?
20 A We have no --
21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer that.
22 THE WITNESS: We have no written agreement.
23 BY MR. KRESS:
24 Q What verbal agreement do you have, if any?
25 A Well, I was asked if I would testify on this
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1 matter, and I said that I would.
2 Q Okay.
3 A And he said --
4 Q When was that?
5 A This goes way back. This is two years ago when
6 these events happened. At the time, we both were
7 extremely upset at the lies told by your company. And
8 at that time, Larry said that he was going to sue. I
9 didn't believe him. So, I really had no idea this would
10 ever happen, I'd be sitting here today, but at the time,
11 I said, "If you need help, I will testify as to what
12 happened and what was done to -- to our fundraising
13 effort for Article II PAC, for Constitution Action Fund,
14 for our case, for Michael Voeltz, for our boarded case
15 in California, and that you people really screwed up big
16 time. So, yes, I was very motivated to testify. Any
17 other questions?
18 Q I have a lot of questions.
19 A Go ahead.
20 Q We are going to be -- we're going to be here
21 for a while.
22 A Okay.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: Please avoid the sarcasm,
24 Mr. Kress.
25 MR. KRESS: He asked me if I had more
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1 questions.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, but no more sarcasm.
3 Just be -- just be a gentleman to my client.
4 MR. KRESS: I am being a gentleman with your
5 client.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you.
7 BY MR. KRESS:
8 Q And -- okay. Do you intend to travel to
9 Florida for the trial?
10 A Excuse me?
11 Q Do you intend to travel to Florida for the
12 trial?
13 A It was my intention I had to go to Miami for a
14 trial, which has been postponed once already.
15 Q Who is paying for your airfare?
16 A It's my impression --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not to answer that. You
18 are not to answer that.
19
21
22 BY MR. KRESS:
23 Q Are you paying for your own airfare?
24 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not to answer that.
25 Attorney-client privilege.
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1
3
4 BY MR. KRESS:
5 Q Who is paying for your hotel when you are here?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not to answer that.
7 Attorney-client privilege.
8
10
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q Okay. When did you first meet Larry Klayman?
13 A I first met Larry Klayman in December of 2011,
14 but I had -- face to face.
15 Q Okay. Did you speak to him or communicate with
16 him before December 2011?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And in what circumstances did you speak to him
19 prior to December of 2011?
20 A Well, you know, Larry's a very famous person,
21 having been the founder of the organization, which now
22 pays you. And he's been involved extensively in various
23 causes for liberty and justice. And I've always been a
24 great admirer of Larry, and I contacted him a couple of
25 times, once when he was running a rally in Washington,
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1 DC. And numerous times, I tried to get him to work for
2 us to take on cases, but it wasn't until December
3 of 2011 where I actually met him and was able to talk in
4 detail about it.
5 Q Okay. So, you -- but you contacted him before
6 that and tried to get him to help you?
7 A Excuse me?
8 Q You had contacted him before December of 2011
9 and sought his assistance, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q In other matters?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Tell me what occurred in December of 2011 with
14 respect to Mr. Klayman?
15 A Well, I met him, and I immediately brought up
16 the topic, which is of mutual interest. I told him what
17 we were trying to accomplish. He indicated that he
18 agreed with it. And I asked him if he would consider
19 representing us, and he was amenable to that. And we
20 met the following week and worked out a tentative
21 agreement, which I then had to get ratification for from
22 my group of people.
23 So, we had a major teleconference after that,
24 and we agreed -- we hammered out the details of how it
25 would work, and then we moved forward from there.
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1 Q Who is your group?
2 A Well, uhm, at that time, I was involved in the
3 Obama Ballot Challenge effort, which was a national
4 group, a very loose affiliation of people, who
5 communicated by telephone and e-mail. And we started
6 off with the New Hampshire Ballot Challenge, since
7 that's the first one in the country, and developed some
8 relationships during that time.
9 I was also the lead person that ran a website
10 called "Obama Ballot Challenge" that attempted to report
11 on what was happening in that movement and also reported
12 -- attempted to motivate people to get involved in the
13 movement, to contribute money, to contribute legal
14 services, to file cases all over the nation.
15 And then subsequently, I was involved with some
16 different organizations that were being used as vehicles
17 to raise funds.
18 Q So, you've extensively worked on the Obama
19 challenges even before communicating with Mr. Klayman,
20 correct?
21 A Yes, yes.
22 Q For instance, Mr. Klayman was not involved in
23 the New Hampshire matter?
24 A I don't know if he was or not.
25 Q Well, you didn't involve him in the New
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1 Hampshire matter, did you?
2 A No. No, I didn't.
3 Q You're an admirer of Larry Klayman?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Are you a friend of Larry Klayman?
6 A I would consider myself a friend now just
7 because we've worked together and been through a lot of
8 battles together.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I mean, he hasn't been to my house. I haven't
11 been to his house or anything like that, but, you know,
12 we are on very -- we are on good terms.
13 Q Okay. What was the -- you talked -- you talked
14 about a couple of these groups.
15 What was the name of the group that was looking
16 to hire Larry Klayman?
17 A The name of the group. It was just some
18 individuals, you know. We are just people. We didn't
19 have a corporation. We didn't have an organization.
20 Q Who are the names -- who are the names of the
21 people?
22 A Well, there are really dozens of people. But
23 the ones that were most centrally involved in the
24 organization were myself, Captain Pamela Barnett, Sam
25 Sewell. We are the ones that actually formed the
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1 fundraising organization. There were many others
2 involved, too.
3 One of the things we had to do is figure out
4 which cases we were going to work on. So, some people
5 submitted different cases; among them, Mike Voeltz from
6 Florida, and Pamela Barnett for the California case.
7 Those are the two cases that we initially wanted to have
8 Larry represent us on. And then we had delusions of
9 grandeur, it turned out because we wanted to have him go
10 through several states and work with lawyers in
11 different states and have more of a coordinated effort.
12 And you, folks, did a really good job of sabotaging that
13 for us. Thank you.
14 MR. KRESS: Move to strike as nonresponsive.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: It was responsive.
16 BY MR. KRESS:
17 Q So, let's go to the exhibits, Mr. Miller. Do
18 you have those in front of you?
19 A I do, yes.
20 Q Can you, please, go to Exhibit 6?
21
22 (Exhibit 6 identified.)
23
24 A Yes. The retention agreement?
25 Q Yes. Okay. You are familiar with this
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1 document, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q It's an e-mail from Larry Klayman to you, dated
4 February 8, 2012, correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And is this -- is this the only retention
7 agreement that you have with Mr. Klayman related to the
8 Obama cases?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Assumes facts not in
10 evidence. Leading.
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q You can answer.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer. That's a legal
14 objection.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, as far as I know.
16 BY MR. KRESS:
17 Q Okay. Let me ask it a different way. I just
18 want to try to avoid any objections.
19 Did -- did you, personally, enter into any
20 other agreements with Larry Klayman with respect to
21 Obama litigation?
23 evidence. Leading.
24 You can respond.
25 THE WITNESS: No.
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1 BY MR. KRESS:
2 Q Okay. Did you hire Larry Klayman to file an
3 Obama challenge?
4 A Well, it depends on what you mean by "you." I
5 did not personally take on any obligation, but I did
6 commit our fundraising efforts to do that. And many
7 people attempted to help me with that, and we intended
8 to raise enough money to not only do the Voeltz case,
9 but the California case and cases in other states as
10 well; and, if necessary, take this to the Supreme Court,
11 which we knew would be quite expensive, you know, beyond
12 our personal means to finance. So we needed to raise
13 funds from people who were motivated to act on this.
14 Q Okay. Well, the letter that's before us, as
15 Exhibit 6, is only -- you are the only recipient of the
16 letter, correct?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. Assumes
18 facts not in evidence. And document speaks for itself.
19 BY MR. KRESS:
21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I was the point person.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: It was an improper question, but
24 you can answer that. Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Answer an improper
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1 question. I was the point person on this thing. I was
2 the one that was the entrepreneur that found Larry
3 Klayman, met Larry Klayman, made the proposal,
4 marshalled the resources, wrote the agreements, but
5 other people were involved in this as well.
6 BY MR. KRESS:
7 Q Okay. And the other people, you mentioned
8 Pamela Barnett and Sam Sewell.
9 Anyone else that you can identify?
10 A I'm not sure I want to identify them and drag
11 them into this thing unless that's necessary for the
12 case.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: You can identify them, George.
14 THE WITNESS: I can answer it?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: You can identify them, George.
16 Yeah, you can answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, for example, the
18 following week after I met Larry Klayman, Tony Dolz
19 (phonetic) accompanied me for the negotiations to hammer
20 out the scope of the case and the financial arrangements
21 in Beverly Hills, meeting Larry Klayman.
22 BY MR. KRESS:
23 Q Let's go through the process of hiring Larry in
24 a little more detail. You communicated with him in
25 December of 2011. And then was that by phone or -- that
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1 was in person, correct?
2 A I met him in person at the time.
3 Q Okay. What happened next with respect to
4 hiring Larry Klayman, either through you or through a
5 group you are affiliated with?
6 A Well, I followed up with a call, which he did
7 not respond to. And I had a mutual friend call him and
8 persuade him to talk to me. And then we talked, and
9 then we established a meeting, a face-to-face meeting in
10 Beverly Hills, which we did that -- the very next week,
11 I think, or maybe the week after. I can't remember the
12 exact chronology.
13 And then I had to go out to our followers and
14 -- and I communicated to them the essence of what Larry
15 wanted to do and what we had tentatively agreed on with
16 Tony, and we got agreement from a lot of people to do
17 that because they said they would help spread the word
18 and raise the money, and they were in accord with what
19 Larry and I wanted to do.
20 Q Okay. So, there's this collective effort to
21 hire Larry.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't characterize his
23 testimony.
24 MR. KRESS: Larry --
25 MR. KLAYMAN: That's improper.
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1 MR. KRESS: Let me just as the questions.
2 BY MR. KRESS:
3 Q Who hired Larry to represent -- who hired Larry
4 for the purposes of the Florida Obama litigation?
5 A Well, this group of people, basically.
6 Q Okay. Is there a written agreement with --
7 between Larry and a group of people?
8 A The only thing we have is this document --
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. George --
10 MR. KRESS: Please let him answer.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to make an objection.
12 MR. KRESS: You can object to the form.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I am. Asked and answered.
14 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? Answer it?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection is asked and answered,
16 George.
17 BY MR. KRESS:
18 Q And you can answer the question, which is --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, after I make the objection,
20 you can answer the question.
21 MR. KRESS: Of course.
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was understood with the
23 group I was speaking for them. So we perceived the
24 agreement was the group, and that our commitment was to
25 raise funds through our fundraising vehicles, which
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1 would fuel this effort.
2 BY MR. KRESS:
3 Q Who is the client?
4 A Who was the client?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's both a legal conclusion
6 and calls for legal conclusion.
7 MR. KRESS: Larry, you are being very invasive
8 and --
9 MR. KLAYMAN: You are asking improper
10 questions, Mr. Kress.
11 MR. KRESS: No, I am not.
12 BY MR. KRESS:
13 Q Who was the client?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to object.
15 MR. KRESS: You are allowed to object to some
16 extent.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I will object, and please be
18 respectful to me as well as my client, and let me make
19 my objection. Do not talk over me. That's
20 attorney-client privilege.
21 MR. KRESS: Not who the client was.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: He already testified. Asked and
23 answered. He already testified to it.
24 MR. KRESS: I don't think we do --
25 BY MR. KRESS:
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1 Q What -- what's the name of the client?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer the question,
3 George, that's fine, but I have to make a question, so
4 please -- objection. Don't talk over me when I have an
5 opportunity to make an objection. You can answer the
6 question.
7 BY MR. KRESS:
8 Q And the question is: What was the name of the
9 client subject to Mr. Klayman's --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: (Inaudible.)
11 (Mr. Klayman talking at the same time.
12 Mr. Kress and witness are talking.)
13 THE WITNESS: There are some legalities
14 involved in there, which I may not understand. Let me
15 give you an analogy of something I do understand. When
16 I was in the consulting business --
17 BY MR. KRESS:
18 Q I just want you to --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, let him answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Would you just listen, please?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Be respectful of my client,
22 please.
23 THE WITNESS: When I was in the consulting
24 business, we had both a client and a customer. The
25 client was the ultimate beneficiary of the work. The
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1 customer might be the one that engaged me. So, I would
2 characterize myself as Larry's customer, but the client
3 was Michael Voeltz, in this particular case.
4 BY MR. KRESS:
5 Q Okay. That's fine. Thank you.
6 Are you aware of a written agreement between
7 Larry Klayman and Michael Voeltz for the purpose of the
8 Obama litigation?
9 A I don't know. That's really not my bailiwick.
10 Q Okay. Don't know one way or the other?
11 A I don't know, no. I don't know.
12 Q Okay. And just so it's clear on the record,
13 because all the objections and the talking --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a second. Wait a second.
15 MR. KRESS: I haven't even asked a question
16 yet.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, but you are making
18 sarcastic --
19 MR. KRESS: I'm not making sarcastic remarks.
20 I'm trying to clarify the record. I'm going to do it.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to make objections.
22 MR. KRESS: I haven't asked a question yet.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: But let me make objections, and
24 you won't have a problem. If you give me an opportunity
25 to object, like I did when your clients were being
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1 represented and made their own objections without even
2 you. So give me an opportunity and don't be sarcastic
3 with George.
4 MR. KRESS: Okay.
5 BY MR. KRESS:
6 Q Just to make sure we are clear on the record,
7 I'm trying to speak as evenly as possible, the only
8 agreement for the retention -- only written agreement
9 for the retention of Larry Klayman's services with
10 respect to the Florida Obama litigation is what's
11 reflected in Exhibit 6, correct?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered.
13 MR. KRESS: And he can answer it again.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Ask and answered.
15 MR. KRESS: He can answer the question.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: He testified to quite long
18 answer.
19 MR. KRESS: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, again.
21 COURT REPORTER: Counsel...
22 MR. KRESS: Yes.
23 COURT REPORTER: Please, do not talk over one
24 another. You're starting to make me angry, and I can't
25 throw my shoe through the phone. (Laughter.)
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1 MR. KRESS: All right. You could, but it
2 wouldn't do much good for you or anyone else. I
3 apologize, and we'll try.
4 BY MR. KRESS:
5 Q Okay. So let's -- let's talk about this
6 agreement here in -- in Exhibit 6, but first of all, did
7 you, either independently or on behalf of the group,
8 agree to the terms reflected in Exhibit 6?
9 A Well, what we agreed to is that we would make a
10 maximal effort to raise money from our donors.
11 Q Okay. The agreement refers to an upfront
12 retainer of $18,000.
13 Was that paid?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Mischaracterizes the
15 document. The document for itself.
16 George, take a look at the document.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm looking at it.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask, Mr. Kress, that you don't
19 mischaracterize documents please. That's not --
20 MR. KRESS: I'll read it word for word.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not correct or ethical.
22 BY MR. KRESS:
23 Q I'll read it word for word then.
24 In paragraph 2, it says:
25 "To file suit in Florida, we will need
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1 an upfront retainer of 18K, which will need to
2 be kept at this level throughout the course of
3 the case replenishing it monthly."
4 And it goes on to say:
5 "I will bill for out-of-pocket
6 disbursements and expenses and my hourly rate
7 of $395 per hour, which is reduced from my
8 usual minimum rate of $600 per hour. The
9 statements will issue on the 1st of each month
10 and be payable upon -- or payable on receipt."
11 Did I read that correctly?
12 A Yes.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not accurate.
14 MR. KRESS: I'm asking --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: No, no, it's not accurate because
16 you are mischaracterizing the document. What you are
17 doing is unethical.
18 MR. KRESS: It's not unethical.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It's unethical. Read the next
20 line.
21 MR. KRESS: Okay. We can -- I want to ask him
22 questions about that.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: The objection, because you are
24 distorting the document, the document speaks for itself,
25 and you are not reading the whole document.
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1 BY MR. KRESS:
2 Q Was an upfront retainer of $18,000 paid by
3 Larry Klayman -- paid to Larry Klayman?
4 A Not -- not on the terms that were done here.
5 We were not able to all the money before he started, but
6 to his eternal credit, he agreed to start anyway in the
7 interests of our country.
8 Q Okay. Was the $18,000 retainer paid at some
9 point?
10 A Yes.
11 Q At what point was it paid?
12 A It was actually after the hearing. So, he
13 actually went and did the hearing without having the
14 full amount, but we finally did raise that and part of
15 the expense money.
16 Q How much was -- how much was Larry paying --
17 Larry Klayman paid in total from the group related to
18 the Florida Obama litigation?
19 A It was about 21,000 something. I don't
20 remember the exact amount anymore.
21 Q Did that -- was that based on fees, expenses or
22 both?
23 A Well, the retainer was 18,000. There was some
24 feels over and above that, which we were able to
25 partially reimburse him for.
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1 Q Okay. Did you pay for any of his -- his
2 expenses?
3 A Again, 18,000 was retainer and the rest was --
4 went towards his expenses. So, I think that would be a
5 yes.
6 Q Okay. Did Larry Klayman issue any billing
7 statements to you or to the group?
8 A Yes. I believe there's one in the exhibits, is
9 there not?
10 Q Yes. Is that -- we will refer to that one. If
11 you could look at George Miller Deposition Exhibit 8,
12 please.
13
15
16 A Exhibit 8. Yes, I see it.
17 Q Okay. And you are familiar with this document,
18 correct?
19 A I am, yes.
20 Q Other than this billing statement -- well, let
21 me ask it -- let me ask it a little bit more clearly.
22 Did Larry Klayman issue any bills to you or to
23 your group related to the Florida Obama litigation?
24 MR. KLAYMAN: Hold on, George.
25 Asked and answered. You already referred to a
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1 prior document, which set forth amounts of retainers,
2 and you misstated what was in there as well. There was
3 18,000 that was Florida and 25 of it was California as
4 well.
5 Go ahead. You can answer, George. I just want
6 to make sure you focus on the question.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. There was the initial --
8 there was the initial retainer agreement and some
9 dunning on that, and there was this particular bill in
10 Exhibit 8, plus he referred to much larger amount of
11 time he had put in that he did bill us for. And at that
12 time, he felt he was not going to be compensated for it.
13 BY MR. KRESS:
14 Q Okay. So, let's just break that down a little
15 bit.
16 Mr. Klayman sent you Exhibit 6, correct?
17 A Let me go back to Exhibit 6 again. I don't
18 remember which one it is. Yes. Yes, he did.
19 Q Okay. And that refers -- I will try to
20 characterize it because -- there's some reference in
21 there to retainers and so forth. And then he sent you
22 Exhibit 8, which is a billing statement.
23 Did Larry Klayman send you any other written
24 bills or billing statements or invoices for his services
25 in the Obama -- Florida Obama litigation?
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1 A I didn't see any hard copy or digital image,
2 but we discussed the scope of what he had done for us
3 that exceeded both of these substantially.
4 Q Okay. I just want to -- but I just want to
5 make sure it's clear on the record.
6 Did he send you any written documents -- I'm
7 looking for written documents right now -- that were
8 bills or invoices for his services in the Florida Obama
9 litigation other than Exhibit 6 and Exhibit 8?
10 A Not that I'm aware of, no.
11 Q Okay. And I just to make sure that I'm clear
12 on this. Uhm... regardless of the amounts stated in
13 Exhibit 6 and Exhibit 8, it's your recollection that
14 Larry Klayman was paid approximately $21,000 by the
15 group for the Florida Obama litigation?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Improper question.
17 Compound. You are mixing apples and oranges. You can
18 ask him for each particular document, but not on a
19 compound question like that.
20 BY MR. KRESS:
21 Q You can answer, if you understand.
22 A Why don't you ask them separately so even I can
23 understand.
24 Q When you -- you testified earlier, I believe,
25 that the group paid Larry Klayman approximately $21,000
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1 for his services in the Florida Obama litigation,
2 correct?
3 A Correct, yes.
4 Q Was that based on -- well, at what time was he
5 paid? Do you remember what month?
6 A He was paid in dribs and drabs, as we could
7 collect the money. And we would save enough to send it,
8 and he would call us up begging for it sooner. So we
9 would send it pretty much whenever he asked when we had
10 some.
11 Q Uhm-hum. And if you could refer to Exhibit 7,
12 please.
13
15
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. There's actually two e-mails referenced
18 on this one page. The first one is at the bottom of the
19 page, and it's from Larry Klayman to George Miller,
20 May 7, 2012, at 8:43 p.m. And it states:
21 "George, Sam and Pamela."
22 So that's you, Sam Sewell, and Pamela Barnett,
23 correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And it states:
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1 "This confirms that I will take this
2 through the hearing on defendant's motion to
3 dismiss if you pay the agreed retainer in full
4 of 18,000 before the hearing. You agreed to
5 pay about 3,000 this week with more coming next
6 week. The remainder of the retainer at this
7 point in time is 11K. Thank you for your
8 cooperation and best, Larry Klayman."
9 If you know, is the 18K that's referenced in
10 this May 7, 2012, e-mail from Larry Klayman the $18,000
11 retainer referenced in the February 8, 2012, e-mail?
12 A It's all the original retainer, yes.
13 Q Okay. Thank you.
14 And then if we go to the e-mail above that,
15 this appears to be from microma- --
16 microcapmaven@aol.com.
17 Do you know whose e-mail address that is?
18 A Yeah, that's mine.
19 Q Is that yours?
20 A It's my -- my address.
21 Q So, that's from you to Larry Klayman. It says:
22 "We have already paid at least 9K."
23 And then I'm not going to read the whole thing.
24 I'm not trying to misrepresent it. I just don't think I
25 need to read the whole thing.
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1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but -- objection.
2 Objection. If you're -- well, take it --
3 MR. KRESS: I am not --
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Give me an opportunity to object.
5 MR. KRESS: Okay.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: If you distort this the way you
7 distorted the other one.
8 MR. KRESS: I object to your characterization.
9 BY MR. KRESS:
10 Q The first -- just reading the first sentence,
11 it says:
12 "We've already paid at least 9,000."
13 And then the last sentence says:
14 "That would leave 9K or less to go
15 according to my math. Where did I go wrong?"
16 What did you mean by -- by that statement,
17 "That would leave 9K or less to, go according to my
18 math. Where did I go wrong?"
19 A I think the memo speaks for itself. Add up the
20 numbers. It comes to eight, nine, $9,300. That would
21 mean that I owe -- that we owe less than 9,000 since the
22 retainer was 18,000.
23 Correct?
24 Q That makes sense to me.
25 A Okay.
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1 MR. KLAYMAN: Object. Move to strike.
2 Mr. Kress, please avoid the colloquy, okay, because
3 that's what causes me to have to object. I don't want
4 to have to interrupt your questioning, but please don't
5 put your own thoughts on the record. You are not
6 testifying. You're not under oath. I'll put you under
7 oath, and I can depose you.
8 MR. KRESS: Your client is asking questions.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: No, but it's improper.
10 BY MR. KRESS:
11 Q Well, let's go to Exhibit 9. Take a moment to
12 read this, please.
13
15
16 A Yes.
17 Q You are familiar with this e-mail?
18 A Yes, I am.
19 Q You recall receiving it from Larry Klayman on
20 or about August 9th of 2012?
21 A At this point, I can't deny it. It's something
22 we've discussed before. I remember hearing e-mails.
23 Did I receive it on that exact date? I don't know. It
24 looks like it from this copy.
25 Q Uhm-hum. I want to refer you to paragraph 3.
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1 It says:
2 "There is no formal contract" -- I'm
3 sorry, I misread that. It states:
4 "That there is no formal written
5 contract is not controlling. There is written
6 evidence of our agreement in the form of
7 e-mails and you owe the moneys under the legal
8 doctrines of promissory estoppel, quantum
9 meruit and unjust enrichment as well as breach
10 of contract. A contract can be oral as well as
11 written."
12 As the recipient of this e-mail, what did that
13 mean to you?
14 A Well, he's attempting to say that I,
15 personally, owe the money. I did subsequently clarify
16 that it was -- it was an effort to raise funds, and that
17 we had committed to try to raise those funds.
18 Otherwise, I agreed pretty much. I'm not a lawyer. I
19 couldn't tell you exactly what the word "estoppel"
20 means, but the bottom line is that we wanted to do this
21 project. We agreed to work and raise the funds with our
22 best efforts, and we continued to attempt to do that
23 during the life of this relationship.
24 Q Thank you.
25 But as of August 9, 2012, was Larry Klayman
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1 asking that you and Pamela Barnett and Sam Sewell pay
2 his bill?
3 A Well, depends again what you mean by "you." He
4 used "you" in there, but again, as I told you, we were
5 attempting to bring the group together to raise the
6 funds, yes.
7 Q Okay. Did you, personally, refuse to
8 contribute to Larry's legal bills or Larry's efforts
9 because of any comments that you read on Orly Taitz
10 website?
11 A Well, I will tell you --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Assumes facts.
13 Objection. George, hold on.
14 MR. KRESS: Wait. Don't -- let's not coach
15 him.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not coaching him.
17 MR. KRESS: If you have an objection, don't
18 coach him -- he's your client.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It assumes facts not testified
20 to. Not in evidence.
21 MR. KRESS: I'll break it down a little bit.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Break it down, please.
23 BY MR. KRESS:
24 Q I know that you, at some point, read that Orly
25 Taitz posted on her website that Connie Ruffley said
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1 that Larry Klayman had been convicted of a crime of not
2 paying child support; is that correct?
3 A Correct.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Object. That mischaracterizes --
5 hold it, George. Just a moment.
6 That mischaracterizes what was on the website.
7 It was that I was convicted of a crime, and the
8 information should be given that I --
9 MR. KRESS: I object.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me -- let me tell you
11 something.
12 MR. KRESS: I ask --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: The questions that you you are
14 asking are misleading, and they mischaracterize what's
15 in -- what Connie Ruffley said. So, consequently,
16 please read to him that which was published on the
17 website because otherwise it's not ethical to do this.
18 MR. KRESS: This is plenty ethical.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not. It's not.
20 BY MR. KRESS:
21 Q Mr. -- Mr. Miller, do you recall reading Connie
22 Ruffley's -- I'm sorry.
23 Do you recall reading Orly Taitz's website
24 posting from February 23, 2012?
25 A I don't remember the exact date, but it was in
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1 February, and she -- she used Connie's --
2 Q My question is -- okay. We can -- we can go to
3 Exhibit Number 14.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's do that.
5 MR. KRESS: Let's do that.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7
9
10 BY MR. KRESS:
11 Q So, you are familiar with Exhibit 14, correct?
12 A Yes, I am.
13 Q Let me ask you this --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Give him an opportunity to review
15 it if you are going to ask him questions.
16 Go ahead, George, read it.
17 MR. KRESS: Well, I don't --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: He's entitled to do that if you
19 are going to ask him questions on the exhibit.
20 BY MR. KRESS:
21 Q If you need to read the whole thing --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm instructing him to do it
23 because that's the way you should ask questions; give
24 him the opportunity to look at the document first.
25 That's the ethical thing to do.
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1 THE WITNESS: Okay. There's a lot in here.
2 What are your specific questions?
3 BY MR. KRESS:
4 Q My question is, did anything in Exhibit 14,
5 after you read it, cause you to refrain personally from
6 contributing to any of -- contributing money to any --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Hold it, George.
8 MR. KRESS: Let me ask the question.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Ask it, but do not answer the
10 question because it's an improper question. I need to
11 make an objection.
12 BY MR. KRESS:
13 Q Let me start again, Mr. Miller. Hopefully, I
14 won't be interrupted this time.
15 Does any --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You are interrupted because the
17 questions are -- are inappropriate and unethical.
18 MR. KRESS: I will just state this on the
19 record. Mr. Miller was not originally identified as a
20 witness. He was -- we objected to him being called at
21 trial. The judge stated that he can only testify at
22 trial if you gave me the opportunity to depose him.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
24 MR. KRESS: If you are interfering with my
25 ability to depose him, then you are further -- it's
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1 further prejudicing us.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: No. What's -- what's -- what's
3 improper, Mr. Kress, is that you've asked him a
4 question, and you never asked him a foundation question
5 about whether he made contributions, okay. You are
6 assuming in your question.
7 MR. KRESS: Okay.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: And you are doing that
9 intentionally.
10 MR. KRESS: No, I am not.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: And that's what's unethical. You
12 are doing it intentionally, okay, and it's an improper
13 question.
14 MR. KRESS: It's improper of accusing me
15 unethical conduct.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then I'm asking that you to
17 stick to what -- what is, you know, what question was is
18 that you are assuming facts that he never testified to,
19 okay. You are putting him in his mouth. Just break the
20 questions down, and you can ask them.
21 BY MR. KRESS:
22 Q Mr. Miller, did you ever refuse to contribute
23 money to Larry Klayman's Florida Obama efforts, legal
24 services, because of anything that you read in
25 Exhibit 14?
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1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. It assumes facts not
2 testified to. He never said he contributed anything.
3 BY MR. KRESS:
4 Q You can answer the question.
5 A It definitely inhibited me from giving more. I
6 gave him some money prior to that. And, you know,
7 frankly, we had a really heavy heart-to-heart talk after
8 this came out because it really shook my confidence
9 quite a bit. I mean, look at this thing. This is
10 Ruffley --
11 Q There's no question --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him answer the question.
13 MR. KRESS: There's no question before --
14 THE WITNESS: I'd like to read you --
15
16 (Mr. Klayman, Mr. Kress, and the
17 witness all speaking at the same time.)
18
19 COURT REPORTER: Stop, stop, stop, stop. Stop,
20 stop, stop. Stop. I don't know how many fingers you
21 think I have, but I can't do it. One person at a time.
22 Sorry. Excuse me. I'm talking. If you want this done,
23 if you want me to certify it, you will speak one at a
24 time. Got it? Does everybody understand one at a time?
25 MR. KRESS: We understand.
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1 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You asked for it, and he's going
3 to answer.
4 THE WITNESS: This is the most --
5
6
9
10 COURT REPORTER: Stop. You're doing it again.
11
14
15 COURT REPORTER: You're doing it again. Stop.
16 Please, stop. There has to be control. There has to be
17 order in this deposition. You have to speak one at a
18 time. That includes the witness. That includes both
19 the attorneys. One at a time. I will not certify this
20 record if you keep talking over each other because I
21 will not be able to get everything.
22 MR. KRESS: Thank you.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: George, just answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. May I read you the words
25 that caused me the most angst and did the most damage to
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1 our program that you people have just about destroyed.
2 May I do that?
3 BY MR. KRESS:
4 Q Yes.
5 A Thank you. Okay.
6 "Mrs. Ruffley" -- these are Orly
7 Taitz's words in her blog.
8 "Mrs. Ruffley actually advised me that
9 Larry Klayman is not licensed in California" --
10 which, by the way, is misleading, which I'll explain
11 later.
12 "She told me that he no longer works
13 for Judicial Watch" -- not that he said that he
14 did.
15 -- "and that donors should know about
16 litigation in Ohio" -- which is where the
17 litigation took place on the child support --
18 -- "where he was convicted" --
19 Really? Convicted? This was news to me. This
20 was quite a shock.
21 -- "recently of not paying large
22 amount in child support. She provided a lot of
23 information."
24 Really? I wonder what that was.
25 "I will publish only what is a public
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1 record. I am not publishing anything that is
2 not in public record."
3 Show me, please, where this is in the public
4 record that your employee, Judicial Watch, the manager
5 of the California thing, who has high visibility, who
6 shows up at public events, who crashes Orly Taitz's
7 session, volunteers this information. Are you kidding?
8 Yes. I'm very concerned, and I'm very angry. You've
9 destroyed our program, and you hurt our nation as well.
10 Any other questions?
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q Are you finished with your answer, Mr. Miller?
13 I have a lot more questions.
14 A Good. Fire away.
15 Q Okay. So you read the paragraph that caused
16 you the most concern, correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q All right. Do you know whether it was true or
19 false that Larry Klayman was not licensed in California?
20 A I've known that all along. He was supposed to
21 go pro hac vice. We knew that he is licensed to
22 practice in Washington, DC. and Florida. He sent me a
23 copy of his law license before we started this
24 assignment.
25 Q Okay. But just make sure we have it clear on
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1 the record, you understood that he was not licensed in
2 California, correct?
3 A I understood that. But the way Orly writes
4 this, it's like he can't even work on the case. She
5 only mentions the facts that were most pertinent, and
6 Mrs. Ruffley as well.
7 Now, why is Mrs. Ruffley making a big deal
8 about the fact that he's not licensed to work in
9 California when he can easily work in California, as
10 attorneys do all over the country, using pro hac vice?
11 It's very, very deceptive on her part, very misleading,
12 especially for someone, who is supposedly a legal expert
13 that works for the world's leading public interest firm,
14 Judicial Watch, which Mr. Klayman founded, by the way.
15 MR. KRESS: Objection. Move to strike as
16 nonresponsive.
17 BY MR. KRESS:
18 Q It was correct that he no longer worked at
19 Judicial Watch, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q There was litigation in Ohio, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Prior --
24 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a minute.
25 BY MR. KRESS:
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1 Q Prior --
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. It's indefinite as to
3 time as to when he had knowledge. Objection. Move to
4 strike.
5 MR. KRESS: I'm going to follow up on that.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Go ahead.
7 BY MR. KRESS:
8 Q As of February 23, 2012, did -- were you aware
9 -- well, let me strike that and start over again.
10 Prior to reading this website article, did --
11 did you know that Larry Klayman was involved in some
12 type of litigation in Ohio related to child support?
13 A I did not know there was litigation. I had
14 heard he was behind on his child support payments. At
15 that time, we asked him. He explained the situation to
16 our satisfaction. I knew nothing about a conviction. I
17 didn't even know that this was a criminal matter. I
18 thought it was a civil matter, actually.
19 Q Okay. So, before the group hired Larry, you
20 knew there was some type of child support issue in Ohio,
21 correct?
22 A I can't remember the exact timing. You know,
23 we did some basic due diligence, and we knew of all
24 kinds of things on the blogs. You know, people attack
25 Larry Klayman all the time. We try to sort out what was
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1 true from what was not true. Basically, we concluded
2 that he was behind on his child support payments, and
3 that's due in part that he works for low rent clients
4 like us, and he puts in a lot of time on his own,
5 dedication time. So, to me, that was really, to some
6 extent, uhm, a pro; that this guy is struggling, trying
7 to make ends meet, working on cases like us, trying to
8 help the country. He's not one of these shyster lawyers
9 that charges high prices and profits vastly. This is a
10 cause for him.
11 Q Okay. All right. So, a few things to ask you
12 about what you just said.
13 You, as part of your due diligence, reviewed
14 Larry Klayman's background, correct?
15 A To some extent, yes.
16 Q And you found a lot of things on the web that
17 were, uhm, critical --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection.
19 BY MR. KRESS:
20 Q -- of Larry Klayman, correct?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. He never testified to
22 that. Assumes facts not in evidence.
23 MR. KRESS: Let me ask it this way.
24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, please, ask it in a
25 different way.
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1 BY MR. KRESS:
2 Q Did you find any information during your due
3 diligence regarding Larry Klayman that reflected
4 negatively on Larry Klayman?
6 You can answer.
7 BY MR. KRESS:
8 Q You can answer.
9 A Well, sure. Lots of stuff. He's not exactly
10 popular with the left. He's not exactly popular with
11 government or organizations that are being investigated.
12 He is certainly not popular with Bill Clinton or Barack
13 Obama or any of their minions.
14 Q So, did you read any, for instance, articles
15 that were critical of Larry Klayman?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Relevancy. Judge has
17 already ruled the articles are inadmissible.
18 BY MR. KRESS:
20 A We read various things on blogs. I can't say
21 that we read those particular exhibits that you have in
22 there. They didn't look familiar to me.
23 Q Okay. But you were aware that there was
24 negative press related to Larry Klayman before you --
25 before you hired him, correct?
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1 A Well, yes. Any great man leaves a wake.
2 Q Okay. So, there's some good stuff out there,
3 there's some bad stuff out there, correct?
4 A Correct, yes.
5 Q But you --
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection to using the word good
7 and bad. Vague and ambiguous. And move to strike.
8 BY MR. KRESS:
9 Q Do you understand the words "good" and "bad"?
10 A I have my own understanding.
11 Q I'll withdraw the question. I'll withdraw the
12 question.
13 But you -- you -- you gathered that
14 information, and you sorted through it to determine what
15 was, in your view, true or false, correct?
16 A To some extent, yes.
17 Q Okay. As of -- well, prior to reading Orly
18 Taitz's publication, which was Exhibit 14, did you know
19 that Larry Klayman had been criminally indicted for
20 failure to pay child support?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay. So, prior to this time, prior to reading
23 this, on February 23, 2012, internet blog or article,
24 you thought it was merely a civil matter, correct?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q The fact that he was indicted speaks negatively
2 of Mr. Klayman, doesn't it?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Facts speak for
4 itself.
5 THE WITNESS: Is a person not innocent until
6 proved guilty anymore?
7
8 (Mr. Klayman speaking at the same
9 time as witness.)
10
11 BY MR. KRESS:
12 Q You mentioned that you thought it was only a
13 civil matter. You didn't know it was a criminal matter.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound question.
15 You can answer, George.
16 BY MR. KRESS:
17 Q I'll withdraw the question because you've
18 already said it.
19 A I've already said it.
20 Q Okay. And in fact, if we go down back to
21 Exhibit 14 and read further on, couple paragraphs down,
22 it states:
23 "Larry" --
24 MR. KLAYMAN: Paragraph 14 of what?
25 MR. KRESS: Exhibit 14.
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1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.
2 MR. KRESS: The last full paragraph on the
3 third -- well, what I'm showing as the second page of
4 the article.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: All right.
6 BY MR. KRESS:
7 Q And it states --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me make an objection. The
9 document speaks for itself.
10 MR. KRESS: Okay. I haven't asked a question
11 yet.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I know the way you ask questions,
13 Mr. Kress. I'm just trying to get an objection, so you
14 can ask the question in a correct way.
15 BY MR. KRESS:
16 Q The last paragraph states:
17 "Larry Klayman, 60, of Los Angeles,
18 California was indicted on two counts of
19 criminal nonsupport. He owes $78,861.76 for
20 his two children, ages of 11 and 14. Two
21 hearings were held in domestic relations court
22 between 2009 and 2010. The last voluntary
23 payment was made on August 30, 2011, in the
24 amount of $1,014.26. Arraignment is scheduled
25 for February 7, 2012."
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1 Prior to reading Orly Taitz's posting, were you
2 aware of the information that I just read to you?
3 A I don't remember the exact amount. All I
4 remember is he was substantially behind in child
5 support, and I did not know it was a criminal thing. I
6 did not know he was indicted. I certainly didn't know
7 he had been convicted because he wasn't. A little bit
8 of misinformation there, yes?
9 Q So, Mr. Miller, going back to where I was --
10 how much money did you contribute to Larry Klayman's
11 efforts in the Florida Obama litigation?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. That's leading, and
13 it doesn't ask the foundation question, Mr. Kress. I
14 can only assume, because you keep doing this, that you
15 are doing it intensionally. And that's why -- that's
16 why I consider this to be unethical because I don't mean
17 to be abrasive, but you know what to do. You are an
18 experienced lawyer. You've been a lawyer for a long
19 time. Ask the foundation question. Don't ask questions
20 that assume facts that are not in evidence.
21 BY MR. KRESS:
22 Q Mr. Miller, didn't you already tell us that you
23 contributed money to Larry Klayman's Florida Obama
24 Challenge efforts?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q How much?
2 A I did a contribution of a thousand, and I think
3 I did more, too. I can't remember the exact amount
4 anymore. It was over a thousand dollars from my
5 personal funds.
6 Q Okay. Thank you.
7 Do you believe that you, personally -- well,
8 let me ask it this way. Let me back up.
9 Did you ever, personally, make a decision to
10 refuse to contribute any funds to Larry Klayman's
11 Florida Obama Challenge as a result of reading that
12 paragraph that concerned you?
13 A I was certainly more inhibited. I mean,
14 there's a number of factors that go into making a
15 donation, like how much money you have, how strongly you
16 feel about the cause, how likely this is to succeed, and
17 all those other things. But that did make me less
18 likely to contribute more money, yes.
19 Q Okay. Did you ever make a conscious decision
20 to say, "I'm not going to contribute money because I
21 read on this internet blog that Mr. Klayman had been
22 convicted"?
24 You can answer.
25 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't -- I don't know. I
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1 know it was definitely a factor, but I can't tell you
2 exactly how that weighed with everything else, but it
3 was a negative factor for sure as it was for hundreds,
4 if not thousands, of other people probably.
5 BY MR. KRESS:
6 Q Okay. What other factors led to your decisions
7 regarding whether or not to -- well, let me ask it this
8 way. You said you contributed a thousand, maybe a
9 little bit more.
10 A Yes.
11 Q What other factors led to your decision not to
12 contribute more?
13 A I already told you that.
15 evidence. He didn't -- he hasn't testify to that.
16 BY MR. KRESS:
17 Q Well, you mentioned that you considered a lot
18 of factors, and this -- this internet article was
19 something that inhibited you.
20 A Yes.
21 Q What other factors did you consider?
22 A I thought I told you that already. Should I do
23 it again?
24 Q I didn't hear that. So, if you could, please.
25 A Okay. I mentioned when you -- when you
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1 contribute to a cause, you ask a lot of questions, like
2 how strongly you feel about the cause, how righteous is
3 it, how likely is it to succeed, how competent are the
4 people doing it, what are the opposition. Those are all
5 factors.
6 This is obviously a very big one and, you know,
7 based on the reaction we had from potential donors and
8 the public, in general, this was a disaster. It dried
9 up our funds. It hurt our credibility very badly, and
10 it was worse by the fact that it came from the very
11 organization that he founded. Kind of like, "Et tu,
12 Brutus."
13 This was just terrible when it happened. You
14 just -- it was -- everyone was kind of moping around,
15 and we tried to figure out how to react to it. I
16 finally wrote that open letter to Taitz to try to get
17 out to the public what the situation was; that these
18 weren't accurate charges, really, and also, they were
19 very colored.
20 It's interesting that she mentioned about --
21 she mentioned about the child support, but she never
22 said a thing about the Hartman decision and the fact
23 that the divorce was actually done in Virginia,
24 originally, not in Ohio at all. And that the judge
25 probably did something illegal in that ruling. So, she

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Case 1:13-cv-20610-CMA Document 127-1 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/27/2014 Page

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