This is the first time I am working on something like this, Please help me understand.

Thanks

(4) jghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar ! "#$%
The forces on the &us are sinusoidal. 'hen the instantaneous current in two conductors is in
the same direction, the two conductors are attracted to each other. (uring a )*) fault, the
currents are in opposite directions and the conductors would repel each other.
(uring a 3) fault, the forces (for s+mmetrical current) in the center conductor would a,erage
-ero and would peak in opposite directions at different points in the current c+cle. The a,erage
direction of forces on the center conductor during an as+mmetrical fault (with dc offset) would
depend on the point of initiation of the fault with respect to the ,oltage wa,eform. The forces
in the outside conductors would &e awa+ from the center conductor.

electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar ! !#.%
/ounds like a great response. 0or 3*phase s+mmetrical fault, I would think the a,erage force on
outer conductors feeding the fault would &e attracti,e (&ecause $! degrees*apart currents are
in opposite direction for $13 of the c+cle), right2
3333333333333333333333333333333333333
Eng*tips forums# The &est place on the we& for engineering discussions.
desertfo4 (Mechanical) 3 Mar ! $#$.
5i sunn+6
This site might help#*
http#11www.copperinfo.co.uk1&us&ars1pu&$$*copper*for*&us&ars1sec7.htm8Electromagnetic
/tresses
desertfo4
jghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar ! $#37
Quote:
0or 3*phase s+mmetrical fault, I would think the a,erage force on outer conductors feeding the
fault would &e attracti,e (&ecause $! degrees*apart currents are in opposite direction for $13 of
the c+cle), right2
'hen the currents are in the opposite direction, the forces are repulsi,e.
electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar ! $#9"
:es, +ou;re right < I had that &ackwards for a moment.
=ow let;s circle &ack and re,isit the phase*to*phase fault. In that case currents are flowing
opposite direction as well, so shouldn;t the+ &e repulsi,e2

3333333333333333333333333333333333333
Eng*tips forums# The &est place on the we& for engineering discussions.
electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar ! $#.
=e,er mind * that;s e4actl+ what +ou said.
3333333333333333333333333333333333333
Eng*tips forums# The &est place on the we& for engineering discussions.
sunn+6 (Electrical) 3 Mar ! 3#3"
Thanks e,er+one, great information.
=ow, would it &e safe to assume for m+ pro1mechanica anal+sis for a s+mmetrical 3phase fault,
that the &race would &e seeing a force of sa+ !!!l&s on > and !!!l&s on ? phase going in the
opposite directions, cause @ phase forces would a,erage out to -ero.

jghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar ! .#!"
Quote:
=ow, would it &e safe to assume for m+ pro1mechanica anal+sis for a s+mmetrical 3phase fault,
that the &race would &e seeing a force of sa+ !!!l&s on > and !!!l&s on ? phase going in the
opposite directions, cause @ phase forces would a,erage out to -ero.
IEEE /td 7!., IEEE Guide for Design of Substation Rigid-Bus Structures considers peak force
during an as+mmetrical fault, not a,erage during a s+mmetrical fault. The force on the middle
phase during a 3) fault is !.677 times the force on the &uses during a )*) fault of the same
magnitude. The force on the outside phases is !.6!6 times the )*) fault force.

desertfo4 (Mechanical) 3 Mar ! 7#6
5i sunn+6
If +ou click on the link I ga,e +ou in m+ earlier post, then click on electromagnetic stresses it
will gi,e +ou formula;s for calculating the forces on the &us&ars for +our situation.
desertfo4
waross (Electrical) 3 Mar ! $#$$
>n+time during the c+cle that the current is -ero in a &us, the force on that &us will &e -ero.
In practice the force on the outer &us &ars will &e outward and the center &us will tend to swing
&ack and forth &etween them.
@ill
********************
A'h+ not the &est2A
Bimm+ ?arter
jack7$36 (Electrical) $! Mar ! $#3"
'ell, this is a great Cuestion and let;s start with the fundamentals. The Cuestion is where is the
greatest force depends on the &us configuration. /urel+ this makes sense.
0or e4ample a &us that is confiruged is a hori-ontal plane like >@? does not create the same
force as a &us that has a configuration of an eCualitratel plane( an eCual lateral traiangle). The
eCual*lateral triangle has eCual force on each conductor (that is the design parameter) wher a
>@? arrangement has the ma4imum force onthe middle conductor.
/o what is the force on conductors in the same plane2
5ere are the considerations#
.:ou need to determine the section modulus of the conductors. 0or rectangular conductors the
section modulus is /3 &D dE$17 where d is the width and & is the height.(Feference Mechanic of
Materials ,0airman G ?utshall, Bohn 'ile+ G /ons, page 3.
$.Is the &us >luminum or ?opper. The &us ma+ ha,e the same section modulus &ut as +ou
know, aluminum ma+ ha,e a lower +ield strength than ?opper and this makes it a weaker
s+stem.
3. 0or a &uses in the same plane, the ma4imum force is on the phase @ conductor and this force
occurs 9. degrees after the short circuit occurs in phase @ as the current passes through a
current -ero ,alue. >ll othe short circut occurrences produce less force.
9. The 0orce is gi,en &+#
0(l&s1InE$3 3%;.D IE$D!E71(!E%D() where ( distance &etween the center to center
&us &uses).
7.Hnce +ou know the section modulus, the short circuit in s+mmetrical amps, the distance
&etween &uses , +ou can easil+ determine the reCuired distance &etween &racing reCuirements.
H&,iousl+ this is not a calculation for rookies.
Back
waross (Electrical) $! Mar ! 7#9
Quote:
the ma4imum force is on the phase @ conductor and this force occurs 9. degrees after the short
circuit occurs in phase @ as the current passes through a current -ero ,alue. >ll othe short
circut occurrences produce less force.
Ma4imum force at -ero current2
(id I read this properl+2
I thought that the repelling force was greatest &etween adjacent conductors when the currents
were eCual. That is when the sum of the sCuares of the currents will &e greatest.
@ill
********************
A'h+ not the &est2A
Bimm+ ?arter
desertfo4 (Mechanical) $! Mar ! 7#9"
5i waross
=o +ou read jacks post correctl+.
H&,iousl+ m+ link to short circuit forces on &us&ars must &e in,isi&le other than to me.
desertfo4
jack7$36 (Electrical) $! Mar ! %#6
Mr. @ill,

I should ha,e &een more specific a&out when the ma4imum force occurs***and thank +ou for
noting I was not clear on that specific point. >ctuall+ there were se,eral points which needed
additional e4plation.
?oncerning when the ma4imum force occurs.
The ma4imum force occurs when the short circuit occurs 9. degrees after the -ero current in
Phase @. The ma4imum force will then occurs 1$ c+cle after the instant of the short circuit.
>n+ other com&ination of circumstances will produce a smaller ,alue.
/tanle+ Iillian, he was a (e,elopmet and Fesearch Engineer for (elta /tar Electric ?ompan+
(?hicago), descri&es this in greater detail in A0orces (ue to /hort ?ircuit ?urrentsA Electrical
'orld, (ecem&er $, "9$.
>lso concerning the @racing FeCuirements
Hften, or sometimes, the &us &ars are not in the same plane. That is the+ are in a staggered
plane or the+ contain &ends. =ot an eas+ solution to this. 5ere is what is happening. 'hen the
forces are not in the same plane, the forces causes the &uses to want to AtwistA or rotate so the
&us &ars will need to resist this motion. I sol,e this &+ calculating the &racing distance for &uses
in the same plane and adding a &race in the middle of the calculation. 0or e4ample, Father than
$ A I would add one at 7 inches.
>nother item concerning &racing.
To reall+ calculate the &racing distances, +ou need to know the e4act +ield strength (P/I) of the
&us &ar material. Most calculation are for copper. >luminum allo+ are now almost eCual to the
+ield of ?opper. The calculations are made for copper and then adjusted for >J. 0or e4ample
if the +ield strength of aluminum is 7!!! P/I and copper is .,!!! P/I, then the calculations
are adjusted to K7!!!1.!!!LE!.. 3!.733 of the distance for copper material. /o +ou calculate
! inch &racing for copper and for >l the &racing reCuirement is !D.733 3 7.33 inches. It all
depends on the +ield strength for the material used in +our calculations.
I 5ope this helps and man+ thanks to @ill for asking that Cuestion. I was in a hurr+ and should
ha,e taken the time to full+ e4plain. /orr+M
>lso, there appears to &e significant interest in this su&ject as the insurance companies for
industrials ask for short circuit and flash ha-ard calculations. I ha,e helped se,eral sol,e these
pro&lems and a,oid a replacement or re&uild.
The &asic engineering for this topic can &e found in the work &+ ?.5. Nan >spen of 5+dro
Electro Power ?omission of Hntario *"$$ and also 5.@ (wight.
Back

/cott+OI (Electrical) $! Mar ! %#$9
desertfo4,
I can see it.
The content of the we& page was once pu&lished as a hardco,er &ook &+ the ?(> called
;?opper for @us&ars;, and some of the diagrams ha,e &een scanned in which e4plains the
indifferent Cualit+ of the images. The &ook is well worth tracking down if onl+ for the images
of contemporar+ eCuipment. M+ personal fa,ourite is the 9!,!!!> $.!N (? circuit &reaker, as
in 9!,!!!> thermal rating, not &reaking capacit+. It is the si-e of a small truck.

**********************************

If we learn from our mistakes I;m getting a great educationM

desertfo4 (Mechanical) $! Mar ! %#."
5i /cott+OI
:es I ha,e a cop+ of that ,er+ &ook and I thought it was still a,aila&le, it is well worth ha,ing a
cop+ I agree.
5ere;s a Cuote on the ma4 force;s due to a single phase and three phase fault#*
Ma4imum stresses
'hen a &us&ar s+stem is running normall+ the interphase forces are normall+ ,er+ small with
the static weight of the &us&ars &eing the dominant component. Onder short*circuit conditions
this is ,er+ often not the case as the current rises to a peak of some thirt+ times its normal ,alue,
falling after a few c+cles to ten times its initial ,alue. These high transitor+ currents create large
mechanical forces not onl+ in the &us&ars themsel,es &ut also in their supporting s+stem. This
means that the support insulators and their associated steelwork must &e designed to withstand
these high loads as well as their normal structural reCuirements such as wind, ice, seismic and
static loads.
The peak or full+ as+mmetrical short circuit current is dependent on the power factor (cos f) of
the &us&ar s+stem and its associated connected electrical plant. The ,alue is o&tained &+
multipl+ing the r.m.s. s+mmetrical current &+ the appropriate factor gi,en in @alanced three*
phase short*circuit stresses.
If the power factor of the s+stem is not known then a factor of $... will normall+ &e close to the
actual s+stem ,alue especiall+ where generation is concerned. =ote that the theoretical
ma4imum for this factor is $P$ or $.6$6 where cos f 3 !. These peak ,alues reduce
e4ponentiall+ and after appro4imatel+ ! c+cles the factor falls to .!, i.e., the s+mmetrical
r.m.s. short circuit current. The peak forces therefore normall+ occur in the first two c+cles
(!.!9 s) as shown in 0igure 3.
In the case of a completel+ as+mmetrical current wa,e, the forces will &e applied with a
freCuenc+ eCual to that of the suppl+ freCuenc+ and with a dou&le freCuenc+ as the wa,e
&ecomes s+mmetrical. Therefore in the case of a .! 5- suppl+ these forces ha,e freCuencies of
.! or !! 5-.
The ma4imum stresses to which a &us structure is likel+ to &e su&jected would occur during a
short*circuit on a single*phase &us&ar s+stem in which the line short*circuit currents are
displaced &+ 6!Q.
In a three*phase s+stem a short*circuit &etween two phases is almost identical to the single*
phase case and although the phase currents are normall+ displaced &+ $!Q, under short*circuit
conditions the phase currents of the two phases are almost 6!Q out of phase. The effect of the
third phase can &e neglected.
In a &alanced three*phase short*circuit, the resultant forces on an+ one of the three phases is less
than in the single*phase case and is dependent on the relati,e ph+sical positions of the three
phases.
In the case of a single*phase short*circuit, the forces produced are unidirectional and are
therefore more se,ere than those due to a three*phase short*circuit, which alternate in direction.
The short*circuit forces ha,e to &e a&sor&ed first &+ the conductor. The conductor therefore
must ha,e an adeCuate proof strength to carr+ these forces without permanent distortion.
?opper satisfies this reCuirement as it has high strength compared with other conductor
materials (Ta&le $). @ecause of the high strength of copper, the insulators can &e more widel+
spaced than is possi&le with lower*
Thienma (Electrical) 9 Ma+ !" "#$"
5i >ll,
I;m a &it pu--ling &+ the Ramma 0actor of , .677, and .6!6 listed on Ta&le $ of the IEEE
standard as adjustment factors for the &us force depend on the t+pe of fault and conductor
location. I;m seeking ad,ice on#
) If +ou ha,e an+ reference or document showing how these factors were deri,ed.
$) ?an these factors &e used to calculate the actual &us &ar fault current withstand capa&ilit+
(i.e. Multipl+ the Ramma factor to the as+mmetrical current)222
I;m ,er+ much confused &+ this and an+ ad,ice is greatl+ appreciated. Thank +ou for +our time.
desertfo4 (Mechanical) 9 Ma+ !" "#3%
5i Thiena
This site might help#*
http#11www.copperinfo.co.uk1&us&ars1pu&$$*copper*for*&us&ars1sec7.htm8Electromagnetic
S$!/tresses
desertfo4
Thienma (Electrical) 9 Ma+ !" !#3!
Thanks desertfo4,
I ha,e seen that document in the past, &ut not Cuite sure how did the+ come up with the .677 or .
6!6 factors. >lso, how can these factors &e applied to calculate, electricall+, the ma4imum
fault current that the &us should &e a&le to withstand. If I were to o&tain the as+mmetrical
current of the &us using the T1F ratio at 1$ c+cle peak following fault, can I multipl+ this
as+mmetrical current with the decrement factor of .677 to get the ma4imum fault current that
the &us must withstand22 I was talking with someone who proposed such, &ut I don;t know
how ,alid it is and &een looking for some sort of dis*proof or confirmation.
jghrist (Electrical) 9 Ma+ !" !#3%
The , !.677, and !.6!6 factors are deri,ed from calculating the peak forces using
differentiation of the net sinusoidal forces on the &us&ars for the different faults. I don;t ha,e
an+ references for the deri,ation, &ut I ha,e done the calculations m+self to confirm that the
factors are correct.

desertfo4 (Mechanical) 9 Ma+ !" !#96
hi Thienma
:es it doesn;t sa+ were the factors came from I assumed it was linked to the as+mmetr+ of the
fault current.
=ot sure wh+ +ou want the &us&ar fault current withstand, I assume that the withstand current
would &e determined &+ the temperature rise or how Cuick the heat can &e dissapated from the
&us&ar and also the stresses set up &etween adjacent &us&ars during a fault.
0rom m+ e4perience the fault ratings for &us&ars is either one or three seconds if during that
time the temperature doesn;t get to high and the mechanical stresses are e4cepta&le ie#* the+ are
not permanentl+ deflected then the s+stem should &e oka+.
If +ou go to the inde4 on the link I pro,ided in the pre,ious post there are sections on the
current ratings of &us&ars.
http#11www.copperinfo.co.uk1&us&ars1pu&$$*copper*for*&us&ars1sec3.htm
desertfo4
Thienma (Electrical) 9 Ma+ !" #!"
(esertfo4,
The reason wh+ i was looking for the short*circuit withstand capa&ilit+ is that we ha,e one of
the &uses in our s+stem which comes prett+ close to the designed electrical current rating, and I
was not certain if the same rating is adeCuate gi,en the present configuration. Through talking
with a fellow engineer, he suggested that the .677 factor can &e used to derate the total fault
current impacting the &us, and i;m do a little soul searching to see if indeed his suggestion is
,alid and if the same approach was &eing used elsewhere.
desertfo4 (Mechanical) 9 Ma+ !" #93
5i Thienma
In that case I would use the formula for#* /hort ?ircuit 5eating of @ars in the second link I
posted earlier.
The time t calculated from this must &e greater than the short circuit time rating for the s+stem.
desertfo4
jghrist (Electrical) 9 Ma+ !" %#3
The !.677 is applica&le onl+ for the short circuit force calculation, not for the thermal rating. It
has to do with the fact that the currents in adjacent &uses during a 3) fault are not 6!Q out of
phase like the+ are during a )*) fault.

patrick%"7 (Electrical) . Ma+ !" !#!
The reason wh+ i was looking for the short*circuit withstand capa&ilit+ is that we ha,e one of
the &uses in our s+stem which comes prett+ close to the designed electrical current rating, and I
was not certain if the same rating is adeCuate gi,en the present configuration.
Iin order to &e assured that the &us in Cuestion is in complience with 7!. +ou need to look at the
continous current rating, the short ckt rating, check that the &us ,oltage gradient and thermal
e4pansion are ok.
:ou will need to calculate the total ,ectorial force on the &us, then +ou can check the ma4 span
&ased on &us strength, &us deflection, and insulator strength. :ou will also ha,e to know what
loading district +ou are in light, medium, hea,+. :ou also need to know what t+pe of ,i&ration
dampers are installed.
+ou can check the fault current &+
I3?D!E7D>DKlogU(Tf*$!VI1R)1(Ti*$!VI1R)W1tLE..