“The New Renaissance”

This is a transcript of a speech held by David Orban (Davidorban Agnon) at “Sophrosyne’s Saturday Salong” on
Extropia Core in March 2008.

[13:04] Sophrosyne Stenvaag:

Hey everybody, welcome - we'll be starting in a few minutes - still lots of
people coming in - If this is your first time here, please feel free to grab a
gift bag and some treats from the back tables - and welcome to to Sophrosyne's
Saturday Salon

[13:06] Sophrosyne Stenvaag:

Our Salon Spotlight Guest this week is Davidorban Agnon. David is the Founder of
OpenSpime, Inc., Vulcano, a community in SL, Lunarez, and numerous other
companies and nonprofits, is a blogger, inventor and creative thinker - and
David's going to be talking about his activities, and about The New Renaissance
- welcome, David!

[13:08] Davidorban:
Thanks Soph, for the kind intro. Hello everybody! Thanks for having me in front
of such an interesting and stimulating audience.

I will speek for about 20-30 minutes and then it will be great to open the floor
for discussion and questions and all the fun we can have. But first, I would
like to ask some of you some questions.

When I speak in front of a physical audience I always try and establish their
'breaking point' in terms of what tools online they do use or even have heard of
so let me ask each of you, and just answer with a yes or no.

First question: have you ever contributed to Wikipedia?

[13:12] Grace McDunnough: Yes
[13:12] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: no
[13:12] Velicia Llewellyn: Nope
[13:12] Zentinal Ziskey: yes
[13:12] Crap Mariner: Yes
[13:12] Chimera Cosmos: read only
[13:12] Alesia Markstein: No
[13:12] Stan Aichi: yes
[13:12] Shava Suntzu: yes
[13:12] Tara Yeats: yeds
[13:12] Extropia DaSilva: No.
[13:12] Galatea Gynoid: minor edits
[13:12] Yel Oh: no
[13:12] Shava Suntzu: and went to wikimania
[13:12] Tara Yeats: -d
[13:12] Malburns Writer: once or twice
[13:12] Velicia Llewellyn: I try to aviod acting like I know things...
[13:12] Ciaran Laval: Yes once or twice
[13:12] Centrasian Wise: yes

[13:12] Davidorban: Second question: do you use Twitter?

[13:12] Grace McDunnough: Yes
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[13:12] Zentinal Ziskey: no

[13:12] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: gods yes
[13:12] Shava Suntzu: addictively
[13:12] Velicia Llewellyn: Yepyep!
[13:12] Yel Oh: hi Alanagh
[13:12] Centrasian Wise: yes
[13:12] Ciaran Laval: Yes
[13:12] Alesia Markstein: No
[13:12] Tara Yeats: yes
[13:12] Dani Revnik: no
[13:12] Kanomi Pikajuna: not any more
[13:12] Crap Mariner: Twitter uses me
[13:12] Yel Oh: no
[13:13] Galatea Gynoid: reluctantly :p
[13:13] Chimera Cosmos: yes, a litle

[13:13] Davidorban:
Third question: would you go as far in lifestreaming as to put (assuming you
have any) biological signals online in realtime (for example heartbeats)?
[13:13] Centrasian Wise: yes
[13:13] Zentinal Ziskey: nope
[13:13] Velicia Llewellyn: No
[13:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: n/a
[13:14] Nikitten Ninetails: no
[13:14] Grace McDunnough has no heartbeat
[13:14] Stan Aichi: sure
[13:14] Yel Oh: if I could think of a good reason to . . yes
[13:14] Extropia DaSilva: Me? No. My primary might but not me.
[13:14] Tara Yeats: unlkiekly
[13:14] Crap Mariner pleads the Fifth
[13:14] Galatea Gynoid: Not sure there'd be a point...
[13:14] Shava Suntzu: unlikely
[13:14] Chimera Cosmos: sure

[13:15] Davidorban:
Fourth question: assuming you could (with an implant or upgrade) merge thoughts,
and PURPOSE, with more entities, would you do it?
[13:15] Malburns Writer: Mal hopes to put memories online before heartbeat
fades, but ...
[13:15] Grace McDunnough: Yes
[13:15] Centrasian Wise: yep
[13:15] Galatea Gynoid: Yes
[13:15] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes
[13:15] Crap Mariner: No
[13:15] Velicia Llewellyn: .....come again Dave?
[13:15] Yel Oh: yes
[13:15] Stan Aichi: yes
[13:15] Galatea Gynoid: Crap: Resistance is futile. :p
[13:15] Shava Suntzu: I want to know more about it before I'd say yes or no
[13:16] Grace McDunnough: Join the merge, Vel . you know you want to
[13:16] Zentinal Ziskey: yes, selectively and voluntarily
[13:16] Velicia Llewellyn: Gotcha

[13:16] Davidorban: So.. thanks for this. It is interesting how when speaking
to different audiences you can always lose them after a while with the answers
becoming prevalently no, or huh, but not here! :)
[13:16] Grace McDunnough winks
[13:17] Davidorban: So, let's start!

And then come back to see what the questions could/should mean, if anything...
Let me start with a little dash into history. The ages of humanity have been
determined by the evolution of ideas, and their implementations in technology,
and societal organization. We have had several epochs, that have been
characterized by the interplay between structures and aggregations of various

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levels: the individual, the family, the clan, the village, the city, the
kingdom, the nation state.

Today's dominant organization, the nation state, is creaking under the forces of
globalization. Not only global commerce of products, but also services, and in
general the flow of ideas. The metaverse is one of the most important harbingers
of the forthcoming changes. And we, in Second Life are experiencing the
approaching shockwaves: all the various crackdowns on innovative and
controversial practices in SL are a sign of how disquieting, and at the same
time how important these experiments are for the physical world.

They are just afraid and rightly so: change is too hard for lazy mammals.

And we are the ones who have to reassure the physical world that change can be
beneficial, and while hard, not drammatic, or tragic.

One of my main interests in memetics, and universal Darwinism in general...

Dynamic evolution in the metaverse in omnipresent. The evolutionary aspects of
Second Life itself are undeniable:
- an environment with constraints hosts
- activities that are observed and copied
- with variation through reinvention
...this is the basic recipe for any universal Darwinian evolution.

I created Vulcano in SL, which you are all welcome not only to visit, but also
to be part of, as an evolving social structure. Vulcano on Second Life has been
born as an experiment in applying these rules within a social structure. What
happens if you let everybody do what they most want to do and learn in SL, to
build whatever they want?

The only 'seed' as the starting point of the evolution being "apply common
sense"!

Since everybody's definition of common sense is different, there will be a lot

of variation, as the news of Vulcano is passed around and people here "Hey you
can do anything on Vulcano, as long as it makes sense". And given the maximum
number of prims on a land, there is an environmental constraint that is applied,
eliminating what are the stupid ideas, and keeping the ones that in this context
make most sense.

After more than a year of evolution on Vulcano we are ready to start and
abstract some of the things we learned!

Lesson one: stakes must not always be raised!

We have had thermonuclear attacks, which we survived, and decided not to ban the
attacker. The biological necessity of always trumping the enemy so that you
won't be exterminated doesn't apply!

Lesson two: you can encourage mistakes!

The wonderful sensation of being free to experiment (the childlike wonder, as
FSJ would say) is here to stay even as adults when you realize that other people
are making the same at the same time as you are or that they went through the
same experiences as you are.

Lesson three: metarules are fundamentally important!

In order not to burden the growing community with more and more rules, we have
metarules that establish the survival value of the social structures, and the
rules that sustain them.

Our next excersise running right now is going to be the design of a dynamic
constitution that will have an XML formulation in order to be machine readable,
and allow the evaluation of DIFFERENCES between different forumlations. Why is
this very important in our opinion? When different online worlds in the
metaverse interoperate the frontier crossing them will beeven more important
than those between countries today as the changes will impact the laws not only
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of the social structure, but ownership, DRM, control, identity. When you are
crossing in an Open Source world, you shall leave all your nice DRM protected
dresses behind!

(BTW: as a consequence, since this filter is not symmetrical, Open Source

creation is bound to overcome greatly close sourced creation in the metaverse as
well)

So, to start the final part of my speech...

When ideas flow freely, since they are not a scarce resource, what you must keep
is adding value through further elements of invention, and creativity.

What happens to humanity as we merge with machines?

What will become of natural humans in a world of automation, where white collar
jobs are as regularly mechanised, as blue collar ones in the '70s or the '80s?

Too many people are living in a state of fear. Because they confuse evolution
with extermination. Still today the most numerous life forms on the planet are
bacteria.

Humans are the foundation of the technological evolution, which is going to

acquire a large degree of autonomous life. When humans decoupled themselves from
the grind of the natural environment 10000 years ago with the invention of
agriculture, they took on the new grind of organizing their new life as
mechanizers. After 10000 years of trying we are now on the verge of actually
being able and go back to what we are good at: chatting, grooming, telling
stories, etc.

Without the heartbreaking realities of a 20 year long average lifespan and

without the incredible loss of ideas being born just to be extinguished becaue
of lack of connectedness.

This is what I call the New Renaissance!

Going back, by going forward: embracing technological tools, to achieve

fulfilling and stimulating lives where creativity is unbounded by commercial
rules and flows openly adding to humanity's happiness in an inclusive society
that is not afraid of the future that it is building

[13:41] Davidorban: THE END :)

[13:41] Extropia DaSilva: You know, the Catholic Church has a HUUUGE following.
Does the fact that it has made nearly all of transhumanism the 7 new deadly sins
represent an impassable obstacle towards realizing transhuman technology?

[13:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag applauds David

[13:42] Dale Innis: Applause!!
[13:42] Grace McDunnough claps
[13:42] Zha Ewry claps politely
[13:42] Zentinal Ziskey: /claps

[13:42] Davidorban: Let me take some of the questions that I saw flying
around... but ignored unpolitely

[13:42] Chimera Cosmos: thanks!

[13:42] Alanagh Recreant: thanks David :)
[13:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag swats one down and hands it to David
[13:42] Khannea Suntzu: Wow is this guy an octopus or what?
[13:42] Dale Innis: ( The 7 deadly sins have an even larger following )
[13:42] Grace McDunnough laughs at Dale
[13:42] Zentinal Ziskey: /laughs
[13:42] Extropia DaSilva: Well why not? We are a democracy, the majority
decide. And transhumanism is a MINORITY following. Most people are very
squeamish about meddling with current concepts of life and humanity.

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[13:43] Shava Suntzu: David, how do we spread this when most people in the
world can't afford broadband, computers, many can't read, and many go hungry
every night?
[13:43] Galatea Gynoid: Extro - Look up "reformation".
[13:43] Dale Innis: "We are a democracy"??
[13:43] Yel Oh nods at Shava
[13:43] Dale Innis: Who's "we"?
[13:43] Dale Innis is not a democracy.

[13:43] Davidorban: Idealizing the past: yes, what I am trying to do is to

build a bridge between those who live in the future, and those who fear it.
Comparing the future with the past is a metaphor, not to be take literally.

[13:43] Extropia DaSilva: Ok everything I say is wrong. Sorry.

[13:43] Dale Innis nods. "Good answer". :)
[13:43] Khannea Suntzu looks like a chimp and insists
[13:43] Michel Manen: thats a ed herring silva
[13:44] Grace McDunnough: Everything Ex? Even when you said I was genius?
[13:44] Dale Innis: ( That's okay, everything I say is wrong too )
[13:44] Davidorban: Extropia: AI, Uploading, etc.: we shall see. Things are
accelerating pretty fast
[13:44] Extropia DaSilva: yep!
[13:44] Zentinal Ziskey: "The future is already here, just unevenly
distributed" - William Gibson @shava
[13:44] Grace McDunnough curses
[13:44] Galatea Gynoid: I wasn't quoting Dune?
[13:44] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: David, Vulcano is an astonishing counter-argument
to social fear -

[13:44] Davidorban: Extropia: autonomous systems. You are wrong here. Systems
are ALREADY autonomous. Humans are mostrly rubberstamping.
[13:44] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'm really interested in how it's not turned into
the worst of the mainland -
[13:44] Shava Suntzu nods at Zen
[13:44] Yel Oh: can you tell us some more about Vulcano perhaps?
[13:44] Scope Cleaver: I have to object, they are not accelerating pretty fast,
not fast enough anyways.
[13:44] Alesia Markstein: I crash, therefore I am.
[13:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and nods at Alesia
[13:45] Dale Innis: Not fast enough for what, Scope?
[13:45] Alanagh Recreant smiles
[13:45] Shava Suntzu: Soph, I suspect the project moves, in reach of PR, thru
networks of trust
[13:45] Grace McDunnough: Fast enough for Scope's building needs
[13:45] Eliver Delphin is Offline

[13:45] Davidorban: When a Wall Street trading system is brought closer to the
floor so that it can shave a few milliseconds off its cycles, that is not to
help humans push buttons faster!

[13:45] Shava Suntzu: Not thru exploration

[13:45] Extropia DaSilva: Of course I am wrong! It was an in-joke. Everyone who
knows me must have known I meant precisely the opposite when I called AI
silly:))
[13:45] Dale Innis smiles. "Or fast enough for my taste, either; but them's the
breaks."

[13:46] Davidorban: Catholic church: 2000 years is not a long time. They've
been good at surviving, but that is no guarantee for the future.

[13:46] Dale Innis: ( Extropia: yah; some of those answers were directed at the
positions you were parodying, rather than at you :) )

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[13:46] Davidorban: Meaning of the initial questions: you see how many of us
are using technological tools that eanble us to communicate at high frequency,
and most of us are ready to take on even more.

[13:47] Grace McDunnough: I am quite ready to take on LESS, thanks

[13:47] Alesia Markstein: Maybe. I'm a slow adopter.
[13:47] Dale Innis quirks an eyebrow at "high frequency".
[13:47] Yel Oh: SO David, what is it you would say is the focus of this
overwhelming "fear" you talk about?
[13:47] Michel Manen: I have a question
[13:47] Davidorban: It is fundamentally important that the growing separation
between those who participate and those who don't doesn't tear society down.
Because they have REAL NUKES.
[13:47] Chimera Cosmos: so slow adopters come to SL?
[13:47] Transhuman Aeon: Hey: silly technical question: how can I see just
David Orban's presentation without any interruptions - like all in one?
[13:47] Alesia Markstein: Some do, Chimera.
[13:47] Alesia Markstein: After it's been runing for years. ;-)
[13:47] Extropia DaSilva: I just feel we are too dismissive towards moral and
ethical objections. While it is TRUE that many of these are not aware of the
FACTS, propoganda CAN be a powerful tool that I think COULD significantlu delay
radical technologies.
[13:47] Transhuman Aeon: is there some way to get the chat function on SL to do
that for me?
[13:47] Yel Oh: the interuptions are part of it :-))
[13:47] Chimera Cosmos: not any I know lol
[13:47] Grace McDunnough: Real nukes? Care to explain?
[13:47] Transhuman Aeon: haha ;--0
[13:47] Ali Hermes: SL is at the point now where the slow adopters are coming
in.
[13:48] Dale Innis: ( Transhuman: you can post-process your chatlog )
[13:48] Transhuman Aeon: ok
[13:48] Crap Mariner checks the closet... vacuum cleaner, winter jackets,
nuclear weapons, light bulbs...
[13:48] Ali Hermes: IE: It's starting to become mass market.
[13:48] Davidorban: Grace: still metaphorically. Shutting down SL banks,
requiring RL ids, etc.
[13:48] Michel Manen: How do you see the new soial structures developing in SL
in a totally new and creative way along non-territorial lines affect the
development of RL organisational structures of governance and in particular the
nation-state and global governance?
[13:48] Transhuman Aeon: thanks Dale
[13:48] Terence McKenna: Assuming, the dialog is worth postprocessing.
[13:48] Ginevra Bamaisin is Offline
[13:48] Grace McDunnough: It's intended to be a scary metaphor, then?
[13:48] Dale Innis: ( Well, yah; the really good stuff is in the interplay! )
[13:49] Crap Mariner: QUESTION: If the nationstate is creaking under the weight
of global commerce and products, why would the Kosovars, Basques, and Kurds so
vehemently demand their own, among others?
[13:49] Chimera Cosmos: Ali--you are lucky--I live in the land of "Second
What???"
[13:49] Michel Manen: those are not nation states CRap
[13:49] Dale Innis: tradition
[13:49] Michel Manen: tyou confuse national commun ities with territorial
nation states
[13:49] Crap Mariner: Michel - Read the question again... they are demanding
their own.
[13:49] Michel Manen: i know crap
[13:49] Crap Mariner: Kosovo just declared independence. Hence, a new nation-
state.
[13:49] Dale Innis: ( I don't know crap. hahahaha )
[13:49] Alesia Markstein: Transnational communities are not new: in the
original Renaissance, most of the intellectual leaders knew each other
[13:50] Michel Manen: you are confusing territorial an non territorial social
structures
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[13:50] Centrasian Wise: because today it's the rule of the game
[13:50] Zentinal Ziskey: i wonder if those are tribalism masquerading as
nationalism
[13:50] Centrasian Wise: but hopefully not tomorrow
[13:50] Davidorban: Transhuman: presentation: will be transcribed on http://
www.davidorban.com
[13:50] Khannea Suntzu: Intense
[13:50] Dale Innis: No, Crap's not having that confusion, but the groups that
he cites may be.
[13:50] Michel Manen: the very fact they want nation states shows how
anachronistic and repressive nation states have become
[13:50] Alesia Markstein: Same during the Enlightenment.
[13:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Zentinal, maybe - it seems the action is at the
smallest and largest ends of the spectrum, and the 18th Century middle - the big
nations - are most feeling the strain -
[13:51] Dale Innis: ( I hope someone's taking pictures, too; this is a great
crowd! )
[13:51] Transhuman Aeon: thanks David, I'll check that out -
[13:51] Zha Ewry: One might well assume that current tribal/.social geoupines,
being pressed by other such groupings seek the be defined as nation states,
because they are stuck playing by the rules which surround them
[13:51] Davidorban: I declare question bancruptcy! Soph, can you help? :)
[13:51] Extropia DaSilva: ...So, how far away do you think the time is when
there will be Turing level AI running avvies in SL? See, I would rather like to
be one and not just be Khannea's alt. She hardly ever logs me in:(
[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[13:51] Davidorban: Lost some of the threads.
[13:51] Ginevra Bamaisin is Online
[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Don't worry, Dale - just grab anything you feel
like answering,
[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and let the rest slide by -
[13:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: anyone adamant enough will ask 6 more times
anyway :)
[13:51] Malburns Writer: metaverse is transnational but nation states still
house server farms and thus dictate
[13:51] Zentinal Ziskey: the funny thing is, cutting edge communication
tecnologies are enabling the resurgence of tribalism
[13:52] Grace McDunnough: Dale is answering questions?
[13:52] Yel Oh: we can always ask again
[13:52] Unai Avro is Offline
[13:52] Dale Innis: ( I'm a typo )
[13:52] Grace McDunnough laughs
[13:52] Zha Ewry has often wondered that of Dale
[13:52] Davidorban: Michel; non-territorial lines: ABSOLUTELY! We had a lot of
that on Vulcano...
[13:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: there's 35 of us and one of you -we understand
that :)
[13:52] Galatea Gynoid: Yes, but we're all mutltribal nw.
[13:52] Extropia DaSilva: You misspelled 'Virgo' Dale..
[13:52] Galatea Gynoid: *multitribal
[13:52] Grace McDunnough coughs
[13:52] Dale Innis: ( how'd you know? )
[13:53] Davidorban: Grace, I think she meant Dave (me)
[13:53] Zha Ewry sighsWe may be multi-tribal, but... we're generally embdeded
in one or a vew few polities
[13:53] Alesia Markstein: Davidorban, tell us more about non-territorial lines
in Vulcano, pls.
[13:53] Centrasian Wise: David, you talked about societal evolution (and
transformation), can you comment on the transformations you notice on a
personal, psychological levels?
[13:53] Dale Innis: So Dave, what do we end up coupled to after this next
coming decoupling? I can't imagine we're actually DONE...
[13:53] Grace McDunnough nods .. I am the literal in the group David
[13:53] Michel Manen: polities are not monolithic.. they are composed of many
communties of interest and belonging and we belong to awhole series of those
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[13:54] Extropia DaSilva: I know everything. When you finally reach the omega
point and stare into the maw of the ultimate Singularity, you shall see me at
its centre, the Aperion of knowledge!
[13:54] Yel Oh: can you tell us some more about Volcano, I didn't quite follow
other than the meta-rules that emerged
[13:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, and the richer the community, the more
overlapping circles of those groups -
[13:54] Michel Manen: i Hoped id see Soph.. pouts
[13:54] Zha Ewry: RL polities, or SL polities
[13:54] Davidorban: Crap: The EU has become the next stage of social
organization where actually membership is sought after, not imposed. The USA
fought a civil war because it didn't want the Southern states to leave.
[13:54] Extropia DaSilva: There is a difference?
[13:54] Dale Innis: You can't see Soph?
[13:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag waves at Michel....
[13:55] Extropia DaSilva: Soph is here. with a great new hairstyle!
[13:55] Michel Manen: lol i was replying to Extropia
[13:55] Davidorban: Kosovo thinks that they wil have a better chance of being
part of the EU if they go on their own way. And they will have protection, so
being small is not a problem.
[13:55] Dale Innis laughs.
[13:55] Wyatt Merryman: some fought a civil war TO be able to leave...
[13:55] Alesia Markstein: David, that is a very good point.
[13:55] Alesia Markstein: About small. Wonder when the Basques wil get theirs?
[13:55] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: - and "sovereign" clearly doesn't mean to Kosovo
what it meant to 18th Century France -
[13:55] Grace McDunnough: This is quiet possibly the most spiraling
conversation we've had at the Salon ..
[13:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it is, isn't it?
[13:56] Davidorban: Centrasian: personal transformations. Very good question. I
personally leave very transparently, and a lot online. You can google me and
learn a lot of what I do, and what interests me, etc.
[13:56] Galatea Gynoid: wee!
[13:56] Extropia DaSilva: Oh well I am just the focal point for the Omega point
in our lightsphere. But Soph is the Multiverse!!
[13:56] Zentinal Ziskey: true enough soph
[13:56] Chimera Cosmos: Bologna Process: upheaval in the academic status quo in
Europe
[13:56] Dale Innis: I'm not sure all the Kosavars (etc) realize that.
[13:56] Michel Manen: nations are entirely different from states. when the two
are conflated u get repression
[13:56] Davidorban: Psychologically speaking this to me is very very
liberating. To realize that openness can be a force and even a great lever in
productivity enhancement
[13:56] Alesia Markstein: You lost me at productivity enhancement
[13:56] Davidorban: For example I record everythign I do, every speech I make,
and put online.
[13:56] Dale Innis: ... or an end in itself :)
[13:57] Kiwi Alfa is Offline
[13:57] Michel Manen: the chanllenge is to develop new structures of governance
allowing for stateless nations and nation less states in a coherent larger whole
based on equal citizenship rights
[13:57] Zentinal Ziskey: along with this conversation?
[13:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Zha had an interesting point a while back about
the distinction between open source and openness socially - could you revisit
that?
[13:57] Zha Ewry: In particular, I'm lost as to how you can make any strong
assertion between the two
[13:57] Davidorban: And have been lucky engouh that people call me not because
they head of me speaking but don't knwo what I say, but because they heard me
speaking and want more of it. Not the same, but actually they tell me "choose
the subject". So this is wonderful.
[13:57] DanyAlex Boucher is Online
[13:58] Fabius Alter is Offline
[13:58] Michel Manen: yey
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[13:58] Michel Manen: :)

[13:58] Shava Suntzu gives David a floaty tag that says "Pundit"
[13:58] Zha Ewry: Open Source is a statement about how the software might be
created
[13:58] Zha Ewry: How it is used, who uses it, and the rules they impose on top
of it, seems to me to be totally decoupled
[13:58] Grace McDunnough: Or, the rules attendant to creation
[13:58] Centrasian Wise: David, do you see the developments like yours as
exceptional, or you sense a pattern of some kind? in your community, for
example?
[13:59] Yel Oh: but who has time to look at all the past conversations and
still keep up with present interactions?
[13:59] Shava Suntzu: Yes Zha, and my group has talked about "open sourcing"
the techniques of community organizing, for that reason
[13:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We've got a full hour left, so there's time for
David to get to most of our questions!
[13:59] Zha Ewry blinks
[13:59] Terence McKenna: /bcam on
[13:59] Zha Ewry: Do you think those rules are closed sourced at the moment?
[13:59] Shava Suntzu: Community organizing is only passed on by mentorships,
generally, because people don't want the "other side" to be effective.
[13:59] Dale Innis: The two sort of go together thematically, don't they, Zha?
That is, they don't HAVE to go together, but they tend to.
[14:00] Michel Manen: other side?
[14:00] Zha Ewry: I don't think so Dale
[14:00] Michel Manen: there is no "other side"
[14:00] Dale Innis: We don't have any books on community organizing??
[14:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm, I tend to agree with Dale -
[14:00] Chimera Cosmos: I don't--promised spouse I would finally find my hotel
receipts so he can do taxes--he'll be dragging me away any minute :-(
[14:00] Zha Ewry: I can take an open source platform and impose a fascist
system on top of it
[14:00] Davidorban: Centrasian: I was thinking about this lately. Creativity is
hard. In any field. And as I said I think we all are naturally lazy. So I was
trying to read reality to see if I could read some weak signals of the
creativity percolating in other levels of society.
[14:00] Dale Innis: Zha: you -can-, but -will- you?
[14:00] Shava Suntzu: Dale, not really good ones, no. Academic ones, but no
"community organizing for dummies" that's very effective at all.
[14:00] Zha Ewry: Me?
[14:00] Galatea Gynoid: Open source is about how it's used and who can use it,
too.
[14:00] Zha Ewry: no
[14:00] Opensource Obscure: on Vulcano rules are open - i mean thay have been
written by community members and implicitly approved by all
[14:00] Zha Ewry: but.. Ias an open source creator
[14:00] Zha Ewry: I don't get to tell other people not to do that
[14:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Opensource - how detailed are these rules, versus
the meta-rules David mentioned?
[14:01] Eliver Delphin is Online
[14:01] Davidorban: And I think I found some. As blaspheous as it can sound, I
think that reality shows are a great training ground for people to realize that
ANYBODY can participate in the economy where dublication of digital goods, and
with 3d printers soon duplication of physical goods too, is not going to add
value.
[14:01] Zha Ewry: If they play by the underlying rules, they can take my
creation in direcitions I don't chose to go
[14:01] Alesia Markstein: Creativity can also be a compulsion, DAvid.
[14:01] Yel Oh: And did you see any signs David?
[14:01] Opensource Obscure: most Vulcano rules are very practical: how many
prims you can use and such
[14:01] Davidorban: What remains is the need to invent, and add to that further
elaborations, further variants, and let a community self discover those.
[14:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ah, ok, interesting -
[14:02] Galatea Gynoid: Zha -- right, you can't close off their options.
www.davidorban.com
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[14:02] Shava Suntzu: 3d printers scale?

[14:02] Davidorban: Open, if you could take all the questions about Vulcano,
you could help me a lot! :) Everybody: Opensource is one of Vulcano's most
active members!
[14:02] Opensource Obscure: flood me and i'll be happy
[14:02] Stan Aichi: David, do you think that the next step in the evolution of
mankind is that nationality will play a less important role in society and that
mankind will finally be able to embrace the community as a whole?
[14:03] Davidorban: So, if the 'creative class' as Joichi Ito calls us, and
even if you don't feel like that, just because you are here you are also part of
it, is going to get larger and larger.
[14:03] Mitzy Burns is Offline
[14:03] Malburns Writer: The global village
[14:03] Shava Suntzu: Open, what is the risk of making mistakes at Vulcano?
Does anyone really have any stake they can't afford to lose? Doesn't that make
the anarchistic utopia a little less proof-y?
[14:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: But, David - to return to one of your themes -
what about the feat of those who *can't* see themselves as members?
[14:03] Transhuman Aeon: so, for starters, what is Vulcano?
[14:03] Davidorban: And basic human interaction, direct, or machine mediated is
going to be very very precious: telling a fairy tale to your children,
participating to a rock or classical concert, going to theater.
[14:04] Alanagh Recreant makes a note to google Vulcano to educate herself....
[14:04] Fabius Alter is Online
[14:04] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm, what about a field trip afterwards?
[14:04] Alanagh Recreant winks at Transhuman, we can google together
[14:04] Zha Ewry returns from preventing extreme evcolutonary pressre being
applied to the toddler
[14:04] Alesia Markstein: Field trip!
[14:04] Davidorban: Soph: simple things can be also very satisfying, and very
important.
[14:04] Yel Oh: Yes woudl someone please tell us about Volcano . . . . pleeease
[14:04] Transhuman Aeon: I googled it, and um, I'm assuming you're not
referring to a small island or a thrash metal band
[14:05] Opensource Obscure: shava: i wouldn't say that Vulcano is the
simulation of an anarchistic utopian city. by definition, you can't lose your
life, your money, your physical .. stuff - so it's a different thing.
[14:05] Shava Suntzu: pardon me, must go to another meeting...
[14:05] Transhuman Aeon: at recreant: indeed ;-0
[14:05] Davidorban: Alanagh: I told VUlcano to produce as much in English as
possible, but I am afraid not enough is available yet (Open: make sure the
others realize how important this is!!)
[14:05] Yel Oh tries to google people here . . being inherently lazy
[14:05] Opensource Obscure: Alanagh: unfortunately Vulcano is a almost-italian
speaking community, and you won't find much info in italian
[14:05] Davidorban: Stan: I am convinced that the nation state is dead.
[14:05] Opensource Obscure: we prefer live,do things and such - documenting is
boring, david :P
[14:05] Davidorban: Any questions I didn't answer yet?
[14:06] Zha Ewry: David, I was also wondering if your willing to assert an
eveolution processs, what selection process you're positiing
[14:06] Alesia Markstein: Lots.
[14:06] torno Kohime is Offline
[14:06] Alanagh Recreant: thank you very much, that is helpful...
[14:06] Dale Innis decides not to cam over and stare fascinated into Gala's
eyes again for awhile....
[14:06] Centrasian Wise: Yes, I was also interested in 'selection'
[14:07] Davidorban: Somebody was asking about the Singularity: I am a
Singularitarian myself, founder of the Singularity Institute Europe.
[14:07] Davidorban: So I amcertainly not objective about these points.
[14:07] Augusta Fride is Online
[14:07] Opensource Obscure: Transhuman Aeon: Vulcano is a sim owned by David.
we are ~300 people. everyone can freely build if they build creative and
experimental things. prims/resources scarcity is managed by common guidelines we
wrote on our own.
www.davidorban.com
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[14:07] Peer Infinity: thank you for setting that up, David :)
[14:07] Zha Ewry nods
[14:08] Davidorban: In my opinoin the technologies are becoming more and more
autonomus, and self regulating. Whether they will wake up in the human sense, it
is not important or very interesting per se.
[14:08] Zha Ewry: Which implies that the rules for prim allocation are a
selectiion filter
[14:08] Alesia Markstein: David, so the dinosaur of the nation-state is dead,
but its extremities haven't all got the news yet?
[14:08] Sophrosyne Stenvaag now has http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnreVTKtpMs
earwormed - thanks, David! :P
[14:08] Transhuman Aeon: aaah I see. but it's all in italian, which is why I
didn't find it on google, right?
[14:08] Dale Innis: I think "the nation-state is dead" is still somewhat
overoptimistic. :)
[14:08] Peer Infinity is also a Singularitarian, and is really glad that the
Singularity Institute has a Canadian branch - I get a lot of money back on
income tax because of that...
[14:08] Davidorban: But we will learn, in my opinion, that there are a very
high number of ways to be intelligent, just as pre-cambrian organisms were taken
aback by how many forms life could invent.
[14:09] Alesia Markstein: (I'm getting to that, Dale. ;-))
[14:09] DanyAlex Boucher is Offline
[14:09] Extropia DaSilva: Oh wow, what a Thinkers topic 'is the nation-state
dead?'
[14:09] Crap Mariner: I suppose that along with the nation-state, individual
languages will also be dead in favor of a single common language of
communication?
[14:09] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Extrop, that *is* a good one -
[14:09] Alanagh Recreant: [13:43] Shava Suntzu: David, how do we spread this
when most people in the world can't afford broadband, computers, many can't
read, and many go hungry every night? (Apologies, but I think I missed this
answer...just point me in the right direction)...
[14:09] Opensource Obscure: right, i apologize. few members write at all on the
Vulcano blog, and nobody cares about english communication, i know this is sad.
[14:09] Hotel Infinity: That is the problem with the initial concept of merging
into a singular mind. You can save it all but it isn't of much use without
processing and filtration for storage and there is no good retrieval method yet.
And those all presuppose that we have some way to modulate bias to the data
values. To say nothing of translating into Italian!! hehe
[14:09] Malburns Writer: Nation states are in their "death throes" - not quite
dead yet
[14:09] Khannea Suntzu: Tsk Tsk
[14:09] Davidorban: Extropia: that'd be cool, and also Michel Manen should be
invited there I think.
[14:09] Zha Ewry glances at a pile of income tax forms and concludes that the
local nation state is doing pretty well
[14:09] Malburns Writer: lol Xha
[14:10] Hotel Infinity: lol, just paid TE 30%
[14:10] Dale Innis: I think there are still plausible futures in which we have
nation-states or equivalent for qjuite awhile. fwiw...
[14:10] Davidorban: Shava: things are getting better for the world's poor as
well. I don't want to sound too utopistic. But it is the case.
[14:10] Yel Oh: @ Alanagh, I was looking for the answer to your question too
[14:10] Zha Ewry: Perhaps, more seriously, tho, at the moment, the low level
polities, do an awful lot of heavy lifting
[14:10] Stan Aichi: the nation state is dead, what are the implications on
regional cultures, will we all adopt the same?
[14:11] Davidorban: And technologies leapfrog. The Western world will embrace
low electricity consumption and solar soltuions because of environmental concern
[14:11] Dale Innis: Nation-states and cultures don't have much to do with each
other really.
[14:11] Alesia Markstein: Stan, it depends.
[14:11] Malburns Writer: yes - metaverse is boom to poorer nations - or can be

www.davidorban.com
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[14:11] Alanagh Recreant: / Yel Oh... I was just repeating the question of
Shava Suntzu (earlier)... think the answer is pending ;)
[14:11] DanyAlex Boucher is Online
[14:11] Davidorban: but the real benefit will go to Mongolia, Africa, Oceania,
India where the fact that often the electrical grid is absent won't be a problem
anymore.
[14:11] Alesia Markstein: ? How's that?
[14:11] Malburns Writer: agreed david
[14:11] Davidorban: Same with Wimax. Here it is a nice thing to have, so that
we can surf the net at high speed while driving (!)
[14:12] Davidorban: There it will be lifechanging.
[14:12] Alesia Markstein: Evolution in action.
[14:12] Grace McDunnough: Or ending
[14:12] Extropia DaSilva: We need nuclear fusion. It is the only energy source
worthy of a transhuman future. (Leave zero point energy to the POST humans).
[14:12] Dale Innis: How is the lack of an electrical grid not a problem? I
missed that bit.
[14:12] Yel Oh: / Alanagh, ah yes . . . good question , not convinced by the
answer though ;-)
[14:12] Zha Ewry: or.. clean, reliable water, or sanitation
[14:13] Davidorban: Extropia: I very much agree. But in the meantime we can
also reduce energy consumption by optimizing too.
[14:13] Malburns Writer: shared resources like solar power are working for
comms
[14:13] Opensource Obscure: one thing I find cool in Vulcano: we didn't
'encode' our guidelines in the second life tools - i mean, you can freely build,
and there is no autoreturn. some 'cleaners' return things that should have not
been built on the sim. community usually manages to quickly spot this kind of
stuff, talk to the cleaners, and thigs get removed. so i'd say a nice example of
self-managed community without strictly enforced rules.
[14:13] Extropia DaSilva: Indeed so.
[14:13] Transhuman Aeon: I don't think that the death - or not - of nation
states is as interesting as other changes we might reasonably expect in the
future. Assuming there will be individuals, there will have to be some kind of
administrative and legalistic structure to make sure that those individuals co-
operate enough, and to enforce some level of law. Whether that administrative
structure deserves the label "nation state" seems less interesting than whether
we develop smarter than human intelligence, for example.
[14:13] Zha Ewry: The third world.. is getting a chance to skip some of the
worst choices the develoiping world made, but, some of the core problems don't
go away
[14:13] Davidorban: An other important element is how GMF is being adopted in
the Third World against objections in Europe. Increased food productivity is
very iportant, and we haven't plateuoed yet.
[14:13] Alesia Markstein: And they don't always skip them, Zha.
[14:14] Alanagh Recreant: ...if off course there is more liberalisation of
regulations in African countries...
[14:14] Davidorban: Transhuman: I think that our very concept of what an
individual is and how to manage it, is going to change fundamentally.
[14:14] Yel Oh wonders about China . . .
[14:14] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes - can you elaborate, David?
[14:14] Truthseeker Young: True, Zha, especially since the Third World bears
the brunt of consequence of so many First-World mistakes...
[14:14] Davidorban: That is why I asked the question about sharing thoughts and
purpose at the beginning.
[14:15] Extropia DaSilva: Why does the sum-total of all human/machine
communication that is the Web not constitute a smarter-than-human intelligence?
The wisdom of the Web far surpasses MY capacity to grasp (as does its
stupidity).
[14:15] Zha Ewry nods, "China has become a net importer of coal, in spite if
obvious consequences:
[14:15] Dale Innis: ( as does its amusingness )
[14:15] Davidorban: Already, in my personal experience, there are simple web
services that now me very well, every day: Amazon knows what books I should
read. So well, that most of the time I already bought them or read them.
www.davidorban.com
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[14:15] Alanagh Recreant: Truthseeker: and vice versa...

[14:15] Dale Innis: ( but the Web doesn't DO stuff )
[14:15] Transhuman Aeon: Extropia: the web is not, by my definition, a smarter
than human intelligence, becuase it can't pass the turing test
[14:15] Nefertite Rehula is Online
[14:16] Zha Ewry: The web, on the whole is utterly passive in this conext
[14:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Neither can some of us.... :P
[14:16] Alesia Markstein: Unless we redefine "intelligence."
[14:16] Davidorban: Google is my exocortex, and I trust it (for the moment)
with practically everything I do, so that when there is a person on the phone
waiting to talk to me, in 20 seconds I know if I have spoken to her in the past
[14:16] Zha Ewry: Know..implies, having an accsible model
[14:16] Nana Zabelin: Dal i'm at some salon...but perhaps it isn't the one you
mentioned....
[14:16] Tara Yeats: There's a difference between knowledge and wisdom...
[14:16] Dale Innis nodnods.
[14:16] Extropia DaSilva: Vinge never said passing the Turing test was a
requisite of the technological Singularity.
[14:16] Transhuman Aeon: David: yes, i'd agree. I think that with augmented
intelligence and ability to communicate, the notion of individuality may start
to blur
[14:16] Yel Oh: I like to use my memory
[14:16] Zha Ewry: I could argue, that Amazon, may have a model of my reading
habits
[14:16] Zha Ewry: but I am not sure it can be described as accesisble
[14:16] Alanagh Recreant agrees with Tara (profoundly wise statement)
[14:16] Davidorban: and what about. And when I am aout to meet somebody I
google their photos so that they don't need to hold a flower or what and I wil
recognize them, etc.
[14:16] Transhuman Aeon: I actually have a personal example of how this kind of
thing is already happening
[14:17] Zha Ewry: nor.. that it is even slightly introspective
[14:17] Dale Innis: Vinge predicts that it'll become a worse exocortex soon, as
more information corruption occurs (intentinally and basically-malicioiusly
false stuff)
[14:17] Davidorban: I have just met Vinge and didn't have the chance to put up
the video yet.
[14:17] Zha Ewry: (if it was, it would understand that just because I buy books
for my cousins, that doesn't define part of my taste set)
[14:17] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Dale, it seems there are too many opportunities
for corroboration/editing, along the Wikipedia model -
[14:17] Dale Innis had lunch with Vinge once, and mentions this constantly in
eir weblog.
[14:17] Davidorban: Please feel free to subscribe to my videos on youtube:
http://youtube.com/davidorban
[14:18] Tara Yeats: (lol Zha - or books for a low income kid I'll never meet!)
[14:18] Dale Innis nods at Soph. "But I don't think we've yet seen (or at least
noticed!) a concerted and clued attempt to hack Wikipedia."
[14:18] Alanagh Recreant waits for the twitter username...chuckles
[14:18] Davidorban: Dale: google has been pretty good at constantly beating the
spam blogs etc. and leaving only the useful stuff, so Vinge seems to be wrong
there.
[14:19] Dale Innis: Way too early to tell I'd say.
[14:19] Extropia DaSilva: Yes, there are quite a few voices saying that the Web
is not making us more intelligent, quite the reverse in fact.
[14:19] Davidorban: (one minute pause at the keyboard!!)
[14:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Dale, didn't they block US Congress ISPs for a
while, after a spate of politically-motivated edits?
[14:19] Zha Ewry shrugs It comes in Waves, Google's sucess, and there hasn't
been a lot of evidence that we've seen a ntional, or sub-national level attempt
to really subvert it
[14:19] Opensource Obscure: media hacking attempts against wikipedia happen
everyday - mainstream media try to do it ; )
[14:19] Dale Innis: That'd be funny! :) But the US Congress has no clue at all
in this area.
www.davidorban.com
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[14:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (sorry, IP addresses)

[14:19] Malburns Writer: twitter.com/DavidOrban if i recall
[14:20] Alanagh Recreant smiles at Malburns ;)
[14:20] Zha Ewry: I expect, sooner or later we'll actually see some of Charlie
Stross's visions of armies of hackers in the employ of a polity trying to
subvert it
[14:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods
[14:20] Dale Innis: You'd do it with a zombie botnet if you knew what you were
doing. No IP addresses to block. :) And you wouldn't flood.
[14:20] Zha Ewry nods at dale
[14:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag thinks David forgot to increase his bladder cache
size before we started.... :P
[14:20] Transhuman Aeon: Extropia: I think that smarter than human intelligence
will happen concurrently with the technological singularity, by any reasonable
definition of the singularity. A lot of people are starting to say that "the
time when smarter than human intelligence is created" is a good defenition for
the singulrty
[14:20] Opensource Obscure: dale, they block the page from edits, so ..
[14:20] Crap Mariner: Zha - You wouldn't consider China's Great Firewall or
active censorship of Google's search engine to be an attempt to subvert, or at
least manipulate their success?
[14:20] Dale Innis: And if someone's already done it well, we wouldn't know. :)
[14:20] Zha Ewry: and you'd build little tiny webservers, with ghost pages, to
crakn out the link counts
[14:20] Zha Ewry: The firewall blocks
[14:21] Dale Innis: Yeah, if you make enough noise that they notice and lock
the page, you've lost. So you don't do that. :)
[14:21] Zha Ewry: They haven't tried, as far as I've seen documented to create
false history
[14:21] Zha Ewry: That, is the point, at which we'llfind out how memetic
warefare works
[14:21] DanyAlex Boucher is Online
[14:21] Extropia DaSilva: That is not A definition of Singularity it is THE,
the ONLY, definition of Singularity.
[14:21] Davidorban: Spam is one of the most promising roads to AI...
[14:21] Alanagh Recreant slips out, thanking Sophrosyne and Davidorban on the
way out....
[14:21] Coventina Mendicant is Offline
[14:21] Zentinal Ziskey: a nation state could always go after the wikipedia
editors *personally*
[14:21] Opensource Obscure: ahahahah david :D
[14:21] Opensource Obscure: insightful.
[14:22] Davidorban: as well as the Russian attempts at breaking CAPTCHA
[14:22] Davidorban: which is currently based on humans (paid $3 per day)
[14:22] Crap Mariner: Zha - Search "Tibetan Protests" from the Chinese side of
things, I'd think. Or Tiennamen. History, swept aside.
[14:22] Scope Cleaver: Interesting you'd say that.
[14:23] Davidorban: but which feeds a genetic algorithm, which is getting
better and better, and hich will be put from the backend to the forefront of the
system. At that point humans will only crack what's left.
[14:23] Coventina Mendicant is Online
[14:23] Scope Cleaver: Which is going to lite up first, the spam or the anti
spam AI?
[14:23] Alesia Markstein: What is CAPTCHA?
[14:23] Yel Oh: so David I guess you might want to wear one of these t-shirst
so people can mobile phone/google you http://augme.com/extid/ ??
[14:23] Khannea Suntzu: Its een a pleasure sir, come again!
[14:23] Extropia DaSilva: Neither is first, Scope. It is a symbiotic
relationship.
[14:23] Davidorban: And once the program can crack 99% of current CAPTCHAs
(with only YAHOO and MSFT using them at that point) than it will... see.
[14:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Extro, that's actually a deeply terrifying thought
-
[14:24] Dale Innis: Then we'll have to think of something better than
CAPTCHA. :)
www.davidorban.com
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[14:24] Dale Innis wrote an SF novel once in which spam nati-Bayes-blocking

software was the first thing to gain consciousness.
[14:24] Truthseeker Young: Won't we then just have an AI think of something
better than CAPTCHA, Dale?
[14:25] Grace McDunnough: Or .. we build systems that detect HUMANS and not
bots - flip the problem around
[14:25] Davidorban: Yel: yep, I have a semacode pointing to my website. I print
it on the placeholder nametags that conferences put in front of you! :)
[14:25] Extropia DaSilva: If Ai really is going to get into this recursive
loop, surely that means Singularity will be a bit of a none-event? From the
perspective of a human, it would just debug itself into a cognitive black hole,
sheer incomprehensibility.
[14:25] Scope Cleaver is afraid consicousness and intelligence are not exactly
aligned.
[14:25] Dale Innis: Truthseeker: nah, I think we'll need a CAPTHCA replacement
a few years before we have AIs that can do it. But I could be wrong. :)
[14:25] Grace McDunnough: Don't be afaid, Scope.
[14:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: very good, Scope!
[14:25] Yel Oh: thought so
[14:25] Davidorban: extropia: yes, that is one possibility: read 'Antibodies'
by Stross
[14:25] Scope Cleaver: I've been terrified ever since I was born Grace.. :)
[14:26] Dale Innis: It's just that the unintelligent consciousnesses aren't
smart enough to get in touch with us.
[14:26] Extropia DaSilva: Oo is that a new book by Stross? I love him! His
books are a MAJOR part of my i-DNA.
[14:26] Malburns Writer: ha dale
[14:26] Dale Innis: We've have unintelligent consciousnesses for a long time.
Take andirons, for instance.
[14:26] Crap Mariner: Or solve it with micropayment filters. Every message
needs to be "taped" to a small amount of value to pass through a filter. A
tollway that allows recipients to waive the tolls for ham, collect tolls for
spam.
[14:26] Transhuman Aeon: i-DNA ! I like that, extropia
[14:26] Transhuman Aeon: and ditto
[14:26] Davidorban: Extropia: it is a short story in the collection 'Toast'
[14:26] Davidorban: i-DNA++
[14:26] Dale Innis: ( Stross r00ls )
[14:26] Ali Hermes: Spambooth?
[14:27] Davidorban: Other questions I didn't answer?
[14:27] Malburns Writer: reminds himself to start reading SF again
[14:27] Extropia DaSilva: I think Stross has written a new book based on
MMORPGS.
[14:27] Grace McDunnough: Thanks for the stimulating conversation .. I must be
off .. ta
[14:27] Dale Innis: Byes Grace!
[14:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: he has, and it's amazing -
[14:27] Scope Cleaver: Later Grace
[14:27] Davidorban: Grace, one sec.
[14:27] Malburns Writer: bye Grace
[14:27] Dale Innis: I liked "Glasshouse" better tho. :)
[14:27] Yel Oh us curious about the link between the rather absract theories
and the harsh realities of life . . so far has only heard about prim
limits . . .and nuclear warheads
[14:28] Extropia DaSilva: Glasshouse is brilliant! Soph, can we have Glasshouse
as a future book for the bookclub? Please? Go on? Pretty Please?
[14:28] Yel Oh probably missed a lot in the flow of chat
[14:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laugsh
[14:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, ok! :)
[14:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'll get it onto the list -
[14:28] Truthseeker Young seconds Extro's request for Glasshouse
[14:29] Extropia DaSilva: If you say no I will get the Score whores to vote
against you, and you KNOW what Bishop Yourdan does to non comformatists!
[14:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: btw, everybody, the Extropia Book Club launches
tomorrow at 1, with a discussion of Heinlein's "Fridayy" -
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[14:29] Dale Innis: Oh good I already reda that one. :)

[14:29] Yel Oh: cool
[14:29] Opensource Obscure: Yel: Vulcano -> common infrastructures ... things
that globally change the sim's shape .. terraforming, streets and such. this
brings to debated
[14:29] Opensource Obscure: *debates
[14:29] Dale Innis: ooo ooo, the 3D VW equivalent of a Wiki!
[14:30] Yel Oh: ok, but there was a lot of talk about fear, where does this
come in?
[14:30] Extropia DaSilva: Did you know, it was Charles Stross's 'Accelerando'
that gave the term 'primary' to my primary?
[14:30] Dale Innis: "Will people please stop removing the top of the church
spire??"
[14:30] Alesia Markstein: David, what role do you think differing languages
will have in the evolution of this future commspace you seem to be talking
about?
[14:30] Opensource Obscure: well , vulcano is not really a wiki, since most
stuff are a single person's little project
[14:30] Scope Cleaver: Take care everyone, thanks for the discussion Soph,
David
[14:30] Dale Innis: ( Many people will be afraid that much of what we want to
do is against the will of &deity; )
[14:30] Transhuman Aeon: and I believe it was that same book that got me
interested in transhumanism...
[14:30] Moharo Bailey is Offline
[14:30] Dale Innis: Byes Scope!
[14:30] Malburns Writer: Bye Scope
[14:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: bye Scope, thansk!
[14:30] Davidorban: Yel; fear is in RL. When politicians, or teachers don't get
it.
[14:30] Yel Oh: bye
[14:31] Extropia DaSilva: Bye Scope dear.
[14:31] Davidorban: When a politician dismisses blogs. When a teacher prohibits
using google or wikipedia for research
[14:31] Dale Innis: Yeah, I was suggesting that some smart person here needs to
go all the way to 3Di VW Wiki. By next month, if possible? :)
[14:31] Davidorban: That is fear of the future. And fear of becoming irrelevant
[14:31] Malburns Writer: Yes - that worries me
[14:31] Alesia Markstein: Nonsense. It's fear of crappy research.
[14:31] Malburns Writer: those who fear still majority
[14:31] Extropia DaSilva: Well said Alesia.
[14:31] Opensource Obscure: i think the best example of Wiki approach in Second
Life is Arcspace
[14:32] Truthseeker Young: Won't fear travel with us, tho, David? How will any
technology that allows some recognizably human consciousness to continue do away
with fear, or other forms of psychic pain?
[14:32] Davidorban: Now there is a great website for reforming the UN, by
making EVERTHING that is being done and dedicded there transparent, and
crossreferenced.
[14:32] Dale Innis: Those fears are sort of boring tho. I'm more afraid of the
fears that lead people to blow stuff up, lynch, and so on.
[14:32] Alesia Markstein: Fear of students' inability to tell the crap from the
real stuff.
[14:32] Dale Innis: It's just a new skill we all need to develop, Alesia :)
[14:32] Davidorban: Fear is not bad per se. Unless it paralyzes you into
inaction. Or if you get delusionary and think that you can stop evolution.
[14:32] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but Alesia, isn't "the real stuff" often defined
as "sources following the traditions I was raised in" regardless of quality or
verification?
[14:33] Davidorban: For example: I'd really want radical Islam to be more
accessible online, not less.
[14:33] Alesia Markstein: Dale: it is true that critical analysis facilities
are not really taught.
[14:33] Malburns Writer: i agree

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[14:33] Davidorban: And then ask my children what they think of what is being
said there.
[14:33] Dale Innis nods. "Exaqctly, Alesia. We should fix that."
[14:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Was anybody at the SXSW panel on Islam online?
[14:33] Alesia Markstein: Soph, it depends on what bias the sources have.
[14:34] Malburns Writer: but the technology of post-nationalism still rersides
in RL and needs protecting
[14:34] Alesia Markstein: All sources have bias ... the trick is to figure out
what they are.
[14:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, to be sure, Alesia - but I think we're talking
about a reflexive fear of new media -
[14:34] Malburns Writer: who protects it?
[14:34] Davidorban: And than ask their children what they think of it, and for
example of http://www.opendemocracy.net/
[14:35] Extropia DaSilva: The trick is, never make up your mind from reading or
listening to one source. 'The Truth' is invariably found from studying something
from multiple perspectives.
[14:35] Davidorban: When you relent, fear itself can be a friend.
[14:35] Alesia Markstein: Soph: Perhaps. I'm not aware of any surveys on the
subject, unfortunately.
[14:35] Dale Innis: Is that the truth, Extropia? :)
[14:35] Yel Oh: And the truth will only be your interpretation anyway . .
[14:35] Yel Oh: which will rarely be the same as anyone elses
[14:35] Extropia DaSilva: I do not know the truth. I only know what can fit
with my subjectivity and what cannot.
[14:36] Yel Oh: erm, yes that is what I meant Ex ;-)
[14:36] Davidorban: Well, physical reality for the moment has the upper hand.
If you are convinced out of your interpretation that you can fly, you'll smash
on the concrete. And that is good.
[14:36] Alesia Markstein: Soph: Perhaps I can toss the notion at a sociologist.
[14:36] Extropia DaSilva: The hard part is knowing when it is my subjectivity
that is wrong, not the information seeking assimilation.
[14:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Alesia, yeah - I read horror stories in the Wired
Campus newsletter - that's my primary source on the subject, I think -
[14:36] Davidorban: The experimental test is necessary with all notions, that
is what I like about Vulcano!
[14:37] Galatea Gynoid nods.
[14:37] Geordie Robbiani is Offline
[14:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: David, do you think that pre-existing cultural
attitudes shaped Vulcano?
[14:37] Davidorban: Learning about the world is more significant than learning
about the model you have about theworld.
[14:37] Dale Innis nods. "We probably would need another hour or two to settle
the nature of truth." :)
[14:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Are Italians/Europeans less likely to create Wild
West spaces like the mainland?
[14:37] Dale Innis: Hm, I could argue with that. Learning about the model is
*awfully* significant.
[14:37] Yel Oh: But it is interesting to discover how you are modelling the
world . .
[14:38] Opensource Obscure: you will find disorder in Vulcano .. not 'wild
west' : )
[14:38] Yel Oh: yes Dale
[14:38] Davidorban: That is why climate change studies are so difficult. I
spoke with Krutzen once, who won the Nobel prize for discovering the ozone
whole. And he is convinced that he knwos not enough about the way the atmosphere
works!
[14:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I know, Open - I'm really struck by the playful
spirity of the place -
[14:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: *spirit
[14:38] Extropia DaSilva: Truth is easy to define. 'There are two ways kinds of
ideas. WRONG ones...and MY ones'. :))
[14:38] Peer Infinity: :)
[14:38] Alesia Markstein: Soph: I'll have to start reading that blog, thx.

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[14:38] Opensource Obscure: i also meant that i don't see a lot of adventure-
spirit
[14:38] Dale Innis nods. "The smart people are always the least certain that
they're correct <sigh>."
[14:38] Davidorban: So that is why we are so excited about OpenSpime where the
first spime (in the Bruce Sterling sense) that we produced is for CO2
measurements.
[14:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ahh, interesting, Open!
[14:39] Opensource Obscure: i'd say most people just stay around their
building/project
[14:39] Davidorban: With sensors that will be in the millions in the
environment, and will let everybody, governments, corporations, individuals
learn about their environment, where they live, and work.
[14:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/ , if anyone's
interested
[14:39] Yel Oh: That sounds really interesting David
[14:40] Davidorban: It will be a much better starting point than to talk about
millions of tons of CO2 without understanding what it really means.
[14:40] Kanomi Pikajuna: Yes, because governments and corporations need more
information about us.
[14:40] Davidorban: And then to be able to start asking qeustions, and maybe
change your behavior as a consequence...
[14:40] Opensource Obscure: does anyone need a simple script that publishes
their SL location to del.icio.us ? see http://del.icio.us/slivelog for an
example
[14:40] Margye Ryba is Online
[14:40] Davidorban: Kanomi: we are working with the Electronic Frontier
Foundation to make sure that we have the right recommendations, and policies in
place.
[14:40] Hotel Infinity: lol, by the time you figure it out, we will have fusion
and be bitchin about the lack of raw materials in the atmosphere to feed out
extraction machines...
[14:41] Malburns Writer: environmental RL problems are probably the most
compelling arguement for accelerating the mateverse as a communications platform
[14:41] Margye Ryba is Online
[14:41] Davidorban: Spimes ARE coming. It will be better to plan for them.
[14:41] Davidorban: Malburns++
[14:41] Davidorban: (even if I love to travel)
[14:41] Malburns Writer: lol
[14:41] Davidorban: Check out http://www.openspime.com
[14:42] Yel Oh: anyone found Myrl yet? www.myrl.com "share, shape, show, vote
and rank what's important to you. Join in to build the first collaborative
social picture of life in the virtual worlds."
[14:42] Opensource Obscure: i joined it today
[14:42] Davidorban: Yel: yes, I have an invite.
[14:42] Davidorban: Know the founders.
[14:42] Kanomi Pikajuna: The EFF has a budget of ... what? Compared to the DoD?
I think you're being a bit optimistic
[14:42] Alesia Markstein: What concerns me is that I wonder if a completely
accessible communications network won't actually stop the evolution of ideas and
creativity.
[14:42] Davidorban: Kanomi: sure. I am always optimistic.
[14:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I requested an invite - and hope it'll be more
useful than all the Ning VW groups -
[14:43] Davidorban: Alesia: why would it?
[14:43] Extropia DaSilva: *Leans back and affectionatly tickles Peer's fluffy
feet*
[14:43] Alesia Markstein: David: I'm a historian and a geography, so I'm deeply
acquainted with the fact that variation and innovation has, historically,
stemmed largely from geographic isolation.
[14:43] Alesia Markstein: *geographer (!)
[14:43] Kanomi Pikajuna: I'm not. Maybe we'll get to Kurzweil, but we have to
go through Kunstler first!
[14:43] Dale Innis: ooo, interesting!
[14:44] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Alesia, I'm deeply skeptical of that -
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[14:44] Alesia Markstein: So - take isolation away, and what happens?

[14:44] Peer Infinity giggles happily :)
[14:44] Truthseeker Young nods @ Kanomi
[14:44] Dale Innis: Too much of a single echo-chamber?
[14:44] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'd think most social/techincal progress has come
from centers of innovation -
[14:44] Alesia Markstein: Dale: perhaps.
[14:44] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: a critical mass of people in communication on the
same topic -
[14:44] Galatea Gynoid nods.
[14:44] Dale Innis is fascinated by the idea, and really wants to figure out
why it won't be a problem. :)
[14:44] Susy Decosta is Online
[14:44] Alesia Markstein: Soph: I mean variation - from language to foodways to
technology.
[14:44] Opensource Obscure: i'm not sure it works like that. isolation is not
difficult communication. it's 'i do not know what there is out there'
[14:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but doesn't communication increase the likelihood
of variation?
[14:45] Opensource Obscure realizes he shouldn't try to talk about abstract
issues in english. che palle
[14:45] Alesia Markstein: Isolation requires groups to come up with their own
solutions - and they often come up with different ones.
[14:45] Dale Innis smiles at O O. "You're doing fine."
[14:45] Davidorban: Here is an other pointer on the UN transparency site:
http://www.undemocracy.com/
[14:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: if I have more material to riff off, I'll have
more output than if I'm left to my own devices - eg, Jazz -
[14:45] Malburns Writer: lol Opensource
[14:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (did I just *say* "eg"?? gaak!)
[14:46] Extropia DaSilva: I know from personal experience that I could never
have even begun to formulate the ideas I carry around without the aid of the
incredible knowledge resource that is the Web. Um..I mean, D'uh I would not even
EXIST without it but um..well..I just do not buy this theory that it crushes
innovation.
[14:46] Yel Oh: you can't create something from nothing . . . .
[14:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, Extro
[14:46] Dale Innis: Is it possible that even with free and open communication,
there will still be enough social and cognitive and accidental groupings to
allow all the innovation we might want?
[14:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: s's become so much more articluate with the
web! :P
[14:46] Extropia DaSilva: Tell that to the quantum physicists, yel;)
[14:46] Truthseeker Young: why would completely-accessible communication do
away with isolation, tho? Right now, I can go visit Web pages of Stormfront, or
PNAC, but you won't catch me anywhere near them
[14:47] Galatea Gynoid: The fact of the matter is, communication encourages
innovcation, and a lack of communication also encourages innovation. Just for
different reasons.
[14:47] Yel Oh: nothing from something
[14:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: good point, Truth!
[14:47] Davidorban: Alesia: Isee what you mean. I live in Italy. In the town
where I live McDonalds closed, and a bookstore opened in its place. We have what
is called the Slow Food movement. A lot of cultural variation. I am not sure
that homogenization will come from connectedness.
[14:47] Dale Innis: I think the plausible worry is that if all the people
interested in X can talk, and they all "know" that Z, who will come up with Z-
prime?
[14:47] Malburns Writer: hey Truthseeker - "know your enemy!"
[14:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Dale, any two people will have 3 opinions - I
think communication just fosters that - :P
[14:48] Alesia Markstein: I'm not saying it's inevitable, but ... have any of
you read deeply into the literature of any academic speciality?
[14:48] Truthseeker Young: hehm Malburns-- I know what they SMELL like, that's
enough for now
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[14:48] Yel Oh muses about how so much technological innovation is borne from
the desire to find more efficient ways to kill other people
[14:48] Alesia Markstein: ECHO CHAMBERS.
[14:48] Malburns Writer: lol
[14:48] Dale Innis smiles. "I tend to think the same thing, Soph, but I'd like
to have really good reasons to be sure."
[14:48] Extropia DaSilva: They say energy and matter can never be created or
destroyed, but only changed into different forms. That being the case, what
sense does it make to talk about the beginning of the universe, rather than an
infinite spacetime always evolving?
[14:48] Alesia Markstein: Dale - exactly.
[14:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Right, Alesia - perfect example! they're not being
enaged outside their own silo -
[14:49] Galatea Gynoid: Sometimes
[14:49] Dale Innis: Extropia: We really mean "the beginning of the *interesting
part* of the universe". :)
[14:49] Alesia Markstein: Creativity and innovation seem to have to swim
against the tide.
[14:49] Galatea Gynoid: That's how ideas evolve.
[14:49] Alesia Markstein: Perhaps the need to find dissertation topics will
keep things going ... ;-)
[14:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh yeah - and I think that goes back to that
social fear of change -
[14:49] Galatea Gynoid: Having to swim against the tide is evolutionary
pressure for idea.s
[14:49] Davidorban: Hey everybody! I love it when people get back in touch with
me after I speak at a place. Please do so, if you have any question, or remark.
[14:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at Gala -
[14:50] Dale Innis: There will always be tides to swim against, though...
[14:50] Galatea Gynoid: Only the best survive it.
[14:50] Davidorban: http://www.davidorban.com
[14:50] Yel Oh: swimming every day
[14:50] Davidorban: david@davidorban.com
[14:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: David, thanks for a *fantastic* Salon!
[14:50] Alesia Markstein: You know what salmon do after that long swim
upstream?
[14:50] Davidorban: http://twitter.com/davidorban
[14:50] Davidorban: Etc.
[14:50] Dale Innis: yes yes yes!
[14:50] Alesia Markstein: Thanks, David!
[14:50] Yel Oh: yes thank you David very much
[14:50] Alesia Markstein: Lots of tasty food for thought.
[14:50] Dale Innis: ( have lots of sex and then die? )
[14:50] Stan Aichi: thanks David
[14:50] Galatea Gynoid: Alesia: They carry their anologies too far? ;)
[14:50] Dale Innis: Applause!!
[14:50] Yel Oh: get eaten by the bears
[14:50] Peer Infinity: thanks David :)
[14:50] Alesia Markstein: Dale - yeah. I always think of that little detail ...
[14:50] Malburns Writer APPLAUDS!!!
[14:51] Dale Innis: :) ALesia
[14:51] Davidorban: Sophrosine, thanks for inviting me. This has been a very
stimulating evening!
[14:51] Davidorban: :)
[14:51] Kanomi Pikajuna: Thanks David for the talk
[14:51] Centrasian Wise is Online
[14:51] Stan Aichi is Offline
[14:51] Malburns Writer: yes - fascinating
[14:51] Dale Innis: ( now the naked afterparty? )
[14:51] Extropia DaSilva: I will tell you why that came about. Humans are tool
makers. They use building blocks of material with which to craft their tools.
Atoms. The atoms of literature are letters. The atoms of maths are Primes. Thus,
they seek the indivisible building blocks of space and time. We cannot see the
infinitely compressible fluid for what it is!
[14:51] Fabius Alter is Offline
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[14:51] Nefertite Rehula is Offline

[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: woot, Dale!
[14:51] Peer Infinity: :)
[14:51] Ale Benelli is Online
[14:51] Terence McKenna is already
[14:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: you've heard of our colorful local customs!
[14:51] Dale Innis: :)
[14:51] Davidorban: Please feel free to add me to your FL if you'd like to here
as well... :)
[14:51] Dale Innis: Hey, that's why I moved in!
[14:51] Opensource Obscure: Extropia hard-Core ? :D
[14:51] Galatea Gynoid: With sufficient communication, ideas tend to not die
off so quickly, though. The swim upstream may be hard, but they can always find
SOMEONE to help carry them forward, in a sufficiently large sea.
[14:52] Malburns Writer is Online
[14:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: if anyone would like a group invite, to get
notices of upcoming events, please IM me!
[14:52] Tara Yeats: Great stuff David - thanks! :-)
[14:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and, see you tomorrow at 1 for the Extropia Book
Club!
[14:52] Dale Innis: ( Extropia: entirely missed the context of that last
one. :) Primes? )
[14:52] Extropia DaSilva: That was the best Salon yet. I hope Soph puts a
transcript up on the blog:)
[14:52] Alesia Markstein: I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, but I do see a
potential for stagnation.
[14:52] Dale Innis goes off to find his old copy of Friday.
[14:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Transcript! yes, a messy one :)
[14:53] Davidorban: :)
[14:53] Dale Innis: Doomsayers are useful, so we can make sure that we have a
good argument against their sad prophecies.
[14:53] Extropia DaSilva: Oh, right, yeah...Axioms are the atoms of
mathematics. Sorry, my mistake.
[14:53] Davidorban: "The Best Salon Yet" wow. I am honored!!
[14:53] Alesia Markstein: Dale: Othankssomuch.
[14:53] Kanomi Pikajuna: ok bye all
[14:53] Alesia Markstein: 8-)
[14:53] Dale Innis: :))
[14:53] Opensource Obscure: if you plan a visit to Vulcano, just write
'Vulcano' in the Map, you'll land in the main (it's pretty small actually)
square, with some info and welcome stuff
[14:53] dracoita Ferrentino is Online
[14:53] Dale Innis: How full did we get the sim? Was anyone watching?
[14:54] Alesia Markstein: I am definitely the "Are you sure that's a good
idea?!" type.
[14:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Peak concurrency of 37, probably over 50 total -
[14:54] Dale Innis: coolcool
[14:54] Papper Papp is Offline
[14:54] Davidorban: Ciao everybody!
[14:54] Alesia Markstein: Ciao!
[14:54] Dale Innis: Byes!
[14:54] Opensource Obscure: ^_^ ciao david
[14:54] Davidorban: See you soon!
[14:54] Malburns Writer: Thanks again David
[14:54] Centrasian Wise: See you later, David!
[14:54] Truthseeker Young: by David! thanks!
[14:54] Malburns Writer: bye for now
[14:54] Boc Cryotank: Ciao indeed.
[14:54] Transhuman Aeon: ciao

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