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AugusL 26
Lh
2009
[n8: 1here are small edlLs for grammar, oLherwlse a LranscrlpL of Lhe conversauon. 1hls
lnLervlew was conducLed as parL of !osean 8ulz' hu research and subsequenLly
publlshed as an appendlx ln hls hu documenLauon.]

!8. .WhaL was Lhe name of Lhls guy LhaL wroLe abouL Lhe leuer Lo aul?
Lk. Clorglo Agamben ( 1be 1lme 1bot kemolos, A commeototy oo tbe leuet to tbe
komoos), and Lhe LexL ls called 1he 1lme LhaL 8emalns", you mlghL wanL Lo read also by
hlm 1he Cpen", and oLher essays. l Lhlnk hls undersLandlng of Lemporal models ls [usL
cruclal. And Lhe oLher example ls Lhls greaL lm from Lhe sevenues called uoot look
Now, have you seen Lhls movle?
!8. no.
Lk. SeL ln venlce. lL was dlrecLed by nlcolas 8oeg. lL ls a very low key horror movle. 1he
maln characLer ,played by uonald SuLherland, ls an arL resLorer, he mlghL be an archlLecL
acLually, and hls [ob ln venlce ls Lo resLore a church, someLhlng very Lraglc happens aL
Lhe beglnnlng of Lhe movle, LhaL seLs Lhe enure movle up. l am wonderlng ... lf eLer
saw Lhls lm and when he saw lL. ?ou can ask hlm lf he saw lL, and lf he remembers lL.
!8. Pe Lyplcally doesn'L use clnema Lo explaln hls work. ln hls concepLual framework he
quoLes uavld Lynch, and now he ls very lnLeresLed ln Mlchael Paneke, dlrecLor of coJe
uokoowo and cocbe.
Lk. cocbe ls a greaL lm. Pave you seen Lhls lm?
!8. ?es.
Lk. All Lhe revlews l've read of Lhls lm foollshly LreaL lL llke a Lhrlller. 8uL Lhe lm ls .
obvlously an allegory abouL Lhe lrench relauonshlp Lo norLh Afrlca. 1he maln characLer's
broLher was an Algerlan. 1he whole lm- lL ls a very slmple lm- ls an allegory of Lhe
lrench relauonshlp wlLh norLh Afrlca.ln my oplnlon. lL ls a greaL lm, really, really good.
!8. l Lhlnk LhaL Llsenman ls lnLeresLed ln how Paneke works wlLh whaL ls noL seen, ln
how he creaLes Lhls exLenslon, Lhls horror, Lhls unbearable psychologlcal sLaLe wlLhouL
uslng expllclL lmagery. lL ls Lhe opposlLe of pornography.
Lk. ?eah, exacLly. AlLhough Paneke dld Lhls lm called lunny Cames, whlch he made rsL
ln Lurope and Lhen he made a remake for Amerlcans, l haven'L seen lL, lL sounds very, for
several reasons, hard Lo see. 8uL, have you seen Lhe Paneke lm 1he 1lme of Lhe Wolf?
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!8. l sLarLed Lo see lL, buL l couldn'L nlsh. lL remlnds me of SLalker acLually.
Lk. A blL, yeah, buL no mysuclsm, no mysuclsm, [usL pure bruLallLy. l Lhlnk Lhere ls a
connecuon ln a way beLween 1lme of tbe wolf and Cormac McCarLhy's novel 1be kooJ,
whlch ls belng made lnLo a lm.Ck, buL hang on a second. We are Lalklng abouL
Lemporal models. ?ou know Lhe lm lttevetslble, Lhls lrench dlrecLor, Caspar noe. 1he
lm goes backward ln ume.
!8. Llke Memeoto...
Lk. klnd of.buL lL ls much harsher Lhan MemenLo. lL ls a very, very, very hard lm. A
Lerrlble Lhlng happens aL Lhe mlddle of Lhe lm, acLually a Lerrlble Lhlng happens aL Lhe
end of Lhe lm Loo, buL because you are golng backwards ln ume you see Lhe beglnnlng,
of course, aL Lhe very end of Lhe lm, and you see Lhe consequence for Lhe characLers
before lL happens. And so you're le wlLh a very complex readlng of consclousness or
lack of consclousness.ln Lhelr slLuauon. lf you are Lalklng abouL Lemporal models ln
eLer's work or ln 8ernard 1schuml's work, as unpleasanL an experlence for me as
waLchlng Lhe lm lttevetslble was, Lhe end resulL was LhaL lL ls noL only a masLerplece
of lmmaklng buL also LhaL lL ls an exLremely morally profound lm, because of Lhe way
lL auempLs Lo hlghllghL our awareness of ourselves as belngs ln ume, lL glves us more
sLrengLh as vlewers of Lhe lm... more sLrengLh Lhan Lhe characLers ln Lhe lm have.
!8. ?ou are very lnLeresLed ln Lhe moral message of lms no? l mean 1arkovskl ls a very
moral guy.
Lk. 1arkovsky says 1here ls noLhlng excepL morallLy", ln an lnLervlew, or ln one of hls
dlarles. 8uL l am noL lnLeresLed ln morallLy ln a convenuonal sense [nelLher was
1arkovsky]. l am lnLeresLed more ln a sub-dlsclpllne of eLhlcs LhaL has someLhlng Lo do
wlLh how bodles lnLeracL, you know, very much along ueleuze's readlng of Splnoza's
seose. Pow bodles can lnLeracL wlLh each oLher. Morals have noLhlng Lo do wlLh an
essenual rlghL or wrong. Morals have Lo do wlLh sysLems LhaL are more or less aware of
whaL Lhey can do Lo oLher sysLems. So for me lttevetslble ls an amazlng lm because lL
produces a klnd of mlcro-hlsLorlcal consclousness ln Lhe vlewer, whlch ls a deeper
hlsLorlcal consclousness Lhan Lhe characLers ln Lhe lm [who are prlsoners of Lhelr
slLuauon] have access Loo. And Lhe reason l brlng Lhls up, qulLe speclcally, ls because ln
eLer's work and ln 8ernard's work, Lhey boLh have very sLrong oplnlons abouL how
archlLecLure can funcuon Lo accompllsh exacLly LhaL goal. 1here ls a sLrong componenL
of doubL ln boLh of Lhelr pracuces, Lhey've lnsLrumenLallzed LhaL doubL, very carefully,
buL Lhe doubL runs all Lhe way Lo Lhe depLh of Lhelr own Lhlnklng abouL Lhe world, so
obvlously Lhelr work ls a klnd of exLernallzauon of Lhe Lacucs of operauon LhaL Lhey
carry ouL ln Lhelr own llfe, ln Lhelr own reallLy, on an everyday level. lor example: when
l asked 1schuml abouL Lhe funcuon/model of ume ln hls work, and wheLher he auempLs
Lo lnsLrumenLallze cerLaln klnds of LemporallLy ln hls work Lo produce, leL's say, a
helghLened consclousness for Lhe people who use hls bulldlngs, he dldn'L answer me
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dlrecLly [my quesuon mlghL have been Loo dlrecL or Loo slmple]. Pe answers by asklng
me lf l've read Lhe sLory by kaa 1he 8urrow", an allegory LhaL ls bullL on doubL and
quesuonlng- noL only wheLher ls safe Lo go ouLslde of Lhe 'burrow', buL wheLher oLher
agenLs even exlsL aL all, because Lhe mole [Lhe creaLure ln Lhe burrow] never has dlrecL
conLacL: lL can only hear whaL lL Lhlnks mlghL be sounds from oLher creaLures ln oLher
burrows, or creaLures above ground. So doubL ls a cruclal facLor for boLh of Lhem. l also
suspecL LhaL Lhey approach ume, or have models of ume whlch are dlerenL.[eLer and
8ernard.] eLer's, as l've sald, l Lhlnk ls a model of ume whlch ls concerned wlLh Lhe
producuon of a hlsLorlcal consclousness [elLher ln an lndlvldual or ln a group] noL
Lhrough any rellable lnLerpreLauon [or message] buL only Lhrough embeddlng of
lnformauon. And l would be surprlsed lf he hlmself hadn'L already LhoughL Lhrough
problems of lofotmouoo 1beoty comlng up from Lhe les or Lhe forues, from Claude
Shannon, Warren Weaver, !ohn von neumann, you know Lhese maLhemaucal glanLs
from Lhe Lhlrues Lo Lhe slxues. 1homas ynchon! eLer ls a huge fan of 1homas ynchon,
l know Lhls. now, l have never spoken wlLh eLer abouL Lhls sLu, so l am really an
exLernal observer.
!8. Pe nally sLarLed Lo quoLe CravlLy's 8alnbow ln every lecLure. l mean, l have Lhe
hlsLory of hls quoLes and he never used Lo quoLe 1homas ynchon unul very recenLly.
Pe never used Lo quoLe uebord's 5oclety of 5pectocle of 1967, whlch he conslders a
book abouL ume, buL he ls quoung lL now ln 2009, when he lecLures abouL Lhe concepL
of loteoess.
Lk. ?es, loteoess, l know. l heard hlm speaklng abouL lL a llule blL a few monLhs ago
when he Lalked Lo Wlgley. And Mark (Wlgley) ls also Lrylng Lo Lalk abouL Lhls very dlrecLly
as well. noL so much laLeness as Lhe klnd of obsolescence of archlLecLure as a pracuce,
as a dlsclpllne whlch ls always so far behlnd, laLe, ln a way, buL also by denluon because
lL ls a dlsclpllne of so much physlcal lnLenslvlLy and so much caplLal lnLenslvlLy LhaL lL has
Lo be abouL masslve Lemporal movemenLs. 1hls ls how l undersLand Cuy uebord.
uebord was a Lhlnker of LemporallLy ln Lhe 5oclety of 5pectocle: he undersLands LhaL
global caplLal changes Lhe ootote of ume, noL [usL Lhe human percepuon of ume buL Lhe
very naLure of ume. 1haL lL llLerally bullds a new lnLerface Lo ume. Cne of Lhe mosL
powerful Lhlnkers on Lhls ls lrederlc !ameson. lrederlc !ameson has really deeply
LhoughL Lhrough Lhls problem. now l would noL clalm Lo be a scholar of !ameson, per se:
Lhe only book of hls LhaL l really know ls 1he Ceopollucal AesLheuc (1he Ceopollucal
AesLheuc: Clnema and Space ln Lhe World SysLem). l've read some essays, l've read blLs
and pleces of lostmoJetolsm, ot, 1be coltotol loqlc of lote copltollsm. 1be Ceopollucol
Aestbeuc ls a book he wroLe around 1990 or 91, LhaL l dldn'L dlscover unul abouL
2003...ln Lhe beglnnlng [of Lhe book] Ceopollucol Aestbeuc ls a sLudy of speclcally
Amerlcan consplracy Lheory lms, llke 1btee uoys of tbe cooJot, klote and 1be lotollox
vlew. as global symptoms, ln a medlcal sense. 1hey are sympLoms of a move Lowards
consclousness on Lhe parL of elLher Lhe lmmakers or Lhe populauon wlLhln whlch LhaL
lm can acLually funcuon. !ameson ls looklng aL lm as an lndex ... of a move Lowards a
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klnd of consclousness or Lhe producuon of a cognluve map. A cognluve map of whaL?
noL [usL of complex soclopollucal or geopollucal relauonshlps, buL of new klnds of ume
and agency LhaL were noL posslble prlor Lo Lhe developmenL of broadcasL,
communlcauon, prlor Lo Lhe developmenL of clnema and lLs prollferauon from Lhe
nlneLeen forues forward as a ma[or Amerlcan culLural exporL and economlc englne. And
so when l look aL uebord, l see hlm Lhrough LhaL lens. lL ls noL [usL LhaL people can or
cannoL percelve Lhelr own posluons wlLhln a hlsLorlcal ow. WlLh 5oclety of 5pectocle
whaL uebord ls Lrylng Lo say ls : Lhere are mechanlsms ln caplLal and ln medla whlch
acLually alLer Lhe naLure of ume lLself". 1lme ls [consuLuLed ln] a seL of lnLanglble
relauonshlps beLween bodles, whaL bodles can do Lo each oLher, and how far ln space
and how far lnLo Lhe fuLure and lnLo Lhe pasL Lhey can reach. 1hls ls why Memeoto ls
such a beauuful [sad] movle, lL ls abouL a body LhaL has had parL of lLs capablllLy Lo
exLend lLself ln space and ume ampuLaLed. uebord recognlzes LhaL Lhe soclety of tbe
spectocle ls a byproducL of a seL of relauonshlps [medla, pollucal, economlc, sub[ecuve]
LhaL are lnumaLely connecLed Lo forms of power along Lhe lrench dlsuncuon beLween
pouvolr" and pulssance, pouvolr" belng a power for conLrol.
!8. lor me Lhe polnL of 1be 5oclety of 5pectocle ls LhaL shl ln whaL was undersLood as
someLhlng LhaL was absoluLely lnLerlor Lo yourself, someLhlng llke 1lme, undersLood as
someLhlng LhaL nobody could Lake away from you, as uebord synLheslzes aL Lhe
beglnnlng of Lhe chapLer of Lhe SpecLacular 1lme wlLh a quoLe by Lhe baroque Spanlsh
wrlLer 8alLasar Craclan, who wroLe tbey coo toke ftom yoo evetytbloq except ume,
wblcb ls eojoyeJ eveo by tbose wbo Joot bove o bome". l Lhlnk whaL uebord ls Lrylng Lo
show us ls LhaL Lhe ldea expressed ln Lhls senLence ls wrong. Pe shows us ln 1he SocleLy
of SpecLacle LhaL ower ls Laklng away from us Lhe 24 hours of our dally ume, Lhrough
Lhe 1v lndusLry, Lhe Lourlsm lndusLry, eLc. Worklng ume was already parL of Lhe prevlous
organlzauonal sysLem, buL now lelsure ume has been added. Cur lelsure ume has been
Laken away from us. So power ls Laklng away from us whaL was prevlously undersLood Lo
be parL of our own lnLerlorlLy. And LhaL's why for me lL's a very sad book.
Lk. ?eah, very sad. uebord was a very sad man, he ls [usL llke !ean Luc Codard. now
Lhere's a profoundly sad guy. LhaL's my oplnlon. l remember readlng ln Cnce [a book
by Wlm Wenders],a passage where Wenders meeLs !ean Luc Codard, l Lhlnk ln Los
Angeles, aL a backyard beer drlnklng sesslon, and Lhey end up drlvlng around ln LA for a
few hours, he has a couple of plcLures of Codard hanglng ouL ln LA. Wenders and !ean
Luc Codard ln Lhe sevenues, hanglng ouL ln Los Angeles ln Pollywood, Lhls guy [Codard]
had Lo be lncredlbly plssed o on many dlerenL levels!! And Wlm Wenders says you
know, l came away wlLh Lhe concluslon LhaL he was one of Lhe saddesL men ln Lhe world,
one of Lhe saddesL men l ever meL". lf you look aL Codard's work you reallze Lhls man ls
profoundly melanchollc, ln a producuve way.profoundly melanchollc... now Lhere ls
anoLher really beauuful Lhread Lo follow ln ynchon. Llke my knowledge of lredrlc
!ameson, l have Lo preface Lhls by saylng LhaL l know only one work by ynchon very
well and LhaL ls 1be ctyloq of lot 49. lL ls a shorL novel LhaL he wroLe ln Lhe mld slxues.
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!8. Maybe l could read LhaL one, because l had a hard ume wlLh Ctovltys kolobow
whlch even for an Lngllsh speaker ls exLremely dlmculL Lo read.
Lk. ?eah, yeah. lL ls amazlng. l've only read parL of Ctovltys kolobow. l read Lhe rsL
LwenLy pages. l have a welrd relauonshlp wlLh cerLaln books LhaL l really love, and l've
had lL slnce l was LhlrLeen or fourLeen years old. l'll plck up a masslve book and l'll sLarL
readlng lL, l'll fall ln love wlLh lL, l'll geL forLy or y pages lnLo lL and l'll puL lL down. 1hls
has become a klnd of rlLual ln my llfe. Cne of Lhe rsL books l dld Lhls wlLh was 1be
8totbets kotomozov. l sLarLed readlng lL and l puL lL down, l was fourLeen. A year or Lwo
laLer l was hlLchhlklng, Lravelllng ouL wesL ln Callfornla, and l was golng Lo be ln a bus for
Lhree days, l saw Lhe book ln a booksLore, l boughL lL and l read lL cover Lo cover on Lhe
bus Lrlp. lL became one of my favorlLe books for a decade. Same Lhlng happened wlLh
Pesse's 1be Closs 8eoJ Come.
!8. WhaL abouL rousL?
Lk. 1haL's on Lhe bookshelf rlghL now. (laughs) !usL llke Mosoo ulxoo ls on Lhe bookshelf,
[usL llke 1be Moo wltboot Ooollues ls on Lhe bookshelf, Lhere are a couple of oLher really
masslve Lhlngs LhaL are on Lhe shelf.Ctovltys kolobow ls one of Lhem. 8uL anyway,
back Lo ctyloq of lot 49, whlch seems Lo be a klnd of shorL comlc novel abouL Amerlcan
culLure, buL acLually ls a profound medlLauon abouL Lhe problem of enLropy, and lL ls
excepuonally beauuful. So, l could easlly see a dlscusslon, l mean l Lhlnk lL would be a
beauuful dlscusslon Lo have wlLh Llsenman, abouL ynchon's model of Lhe posslblllLy
[or noL] of a hlsLorlcal consclousness ln 1be ctyloq of lot 49 . CeL eLer's Lake on LhaL,
and how eLer's own work relaLes Lo LhaL klnd of model of hlsLorlcal consclousness.
8ecause acLually ln ctyloq of lot 49 each of Lhe characLers has a dlerenL agency Lo see
Lhemselves wlLhln Lhelr conLexL. ln Lhe conversauon LhaL we are havlng rlghL now, when
l am Lalklng abouL hlsLorlcal consclousness whaL l mean ls Lhe ablllLy of an agenL or a
populauon of agenLs Lo see Lhemselves wlLhln a conLexL, a Lemporallzed conLexL. Whlch
mlghL be a qulLe dlerenL.
!8. 1he ldea of laLeness" ls ln a sense, Lo be aware LhaL we are llvlng ln a perlod, a
Lermlnal perlod, whlch has le lLs revoluuon far away, maybe ln Lhe Lwenues. So now ln
Lhls laLe perlod, forms geL exLremely complex llke ln ynchon, llke ln Llsenman,
everyLhlng becomes mannerlsL, very unnecessarlly compllcaLed. lL ls noL Lhe rsL ume
LhaL Lhls happens ln Lhe hlsLory of wesLern culLure, buL maybe Lhls concepL of laLeness"
ls relaLed Lo your ldea of hlsLorlcal consclousness".
AnoLher Lemporal ldea LhaL Llsenman used several years ago was Lhe ldea of
presenLness". Whlch he dened, as Lhe capablllLy of some slngular works of arL Lo
escape ume. lL ls someLhlng LhaL has noL been reabsorbed by Lhe dlsclpllne of
ArchlLecLure.
Lk. ?eah.
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!8. Pe explalns for example Le Corbusler's La 1oureue. lL ls funny because Llsenman
never quoLed uebord ln hls LexLs, nelLher dld 1schuml. l Lhlnk uebord ls a laLe reference,
posL 2000 ln Llsenman, buL uebord ls a very lmporLanL guy for 1schuml and he never
quoLes hlm. l Lhlnk 1schuml's undersLandlng of ume ls much more pollucal Lhan
Llsenman's, and much more Lhan Lynn's, where lL ls more asepucal. l mean hls
(1schuml's) work ln Lhe sevenues aL Lhe ArchlLecLural Assoclauon was abouL Lranslaung
Lhe ldea of Lhe barrlcades ln arls, Lhe ldea of readlng kaa and !oyce's llooeqoo's
woke, and Lrylng Lo lncorporaLe Lhe narrauve sLrucLures LhaL could be found ln llLeraLure
and ln clnema wlLhln archlLecLure, and Lrylng Lo occupy space ln a pollucal way. 8uL Lhls
pollucal occupauon of space creauvely comes from Lhe 5ltoouoolsts, and l Lhlnk lL ls Lhe
only posluve lnLerpreLauon of uebord, Laklng Lhe sLreeL creauvely. 8uL he (1schuml)
never quoLes uebord.
Lk. ?ou know Lhere ls anoLher book whlch provldes you wlLh a beauufully wrluen Lake
on alLernauve culLure and Lhe relauonshlp beLween Lhe 5ltoouoolsts, Lhe leutlsts, Lhe
uoJolsts and varlous oLher 'consplracles' lf you wlll, back Lhrough Luropean hlsLory over
several cenLurles, whlch ls a book called llpsuck 1toces, by Crell Marcus. Pe ls a rock n'
roll crluc and hlsLorlan, ln llpsuck 1toces whaL he Lrles Lo do ls comprehend, for
example, Lhe unk MovemenL as lL emerges ln 8rlLaln wlLh groups llke Lhe Sex lsLols, ln
relauonshlp Lo Lhe SlLuauonlsLs , Lhrough Malcolm McLaren's agenda and operauon as a
klnd of subverslve pop culLure lmpresarlo, eLc. Marcus Lraces Lhe Lhread of LhaL
subverslveness from lLs malnsLream lmplemenLauons Lhrough Lhe muslc of Lhe Sex
lsLols, back Lo Lhe SlLuauonlsLs, varlous sLralns of revoluuon and nlhlllsm, and so forLh.
lL ls a really, really, good book. very easy Lo read, super fun. lL puLs a posluve spln on Lhe
consequences of Lhe SlLuauonlsLs and lL auempLs Lo Lrack a way LhaL some of Lhelr
sLaLed and unsLaLed goals would manlfesL ln pop culLure, and agaln ln hlsLorlcal
consclousness, as produced by someLhlng llke Lhe punk culLure ln Lhe sevenues. So LhaL
mlghL be a really lnLeresung and unexpecLed LexL for you Lo Lake a look aL and use lL as
reference Lo Lry once agaln Lo undersLand Lhe problem of LemporallLy ln someone llke
uebord. l agree wlLh you, l Lhlnk uebord ls an exLremely lmporLanL gure for 1schuml,
and ConsLanL as well.
!8. 8uL lL's curlous LhaL sLrong lnuences aren'L quoLed ln Lhelr essays. So we have
Llsenman's Cannareglo, lAuS, and Cpposluons. ?ou dldn'L llve dlrecLly LhaL perlod. 8uL
Lhen we have 1he Manhauan 1ranscrlpLs, we have La vllleue, whlch could be
undersLood as Lhe archlLecLural conunuauon of Lhe Manhauan 1ranscrlpLs, and Lhen we
have Lhe CSA, Lhe school of archlLecLure creaLed by 1schuml whlch you llved dlrecLly.
When dld you sLarL Leachlng ln Lhe CSA?
Lk. When dld l sLarL Leachlng? ln 1998. l was a sLudenL from 1991 Lo 1994. l dld Lhe
Lhree year M.Arch.
!8. uld you have Creg Lynn as a Leacher?
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Lk. Pe was an advlsor for an lndependenL SLudles semlnar LhaL l developed durlng my
Lhlrd year. Pe was ln a loL of my revlews, buL he was never my sLudlo crluc. l had 8lll
Mcuonald, Amy Anderson, Wayne 8erg, !esse 8elser, and l had Alex Wall and SLefano ue
Maruno, who had worked wlLh 8em back ln Lhe early days. 1hey LaughL semlnars and
Lhey LaughL a sLudlo LhaL l was ln.
!8. l Lhlnk Lhose years are Lhe mosL lmporLanL years ln 1schuml's deanshlp. lrom 91 Lo
94, lf you analyze Lhe AbsLracLs, you can see Lhe Lransformauon from Lhe leL's say
resldual ueconsLrucuvlsL language.
Lk. ?eah, and fully away from Lhe weak posLmodernlsm/neoclasslclsm whlch was sull
very powerful ln Lhe elghues. ?ou can nd sLudenL pro[ecLs by some people LhaL LaughL
ln Lhe CSA some years laLer, yeL when Lhey were sLudenLs ln Lhe elghues ln CSA
Lhey were dolng sLralghL ahead SLern posLmodernlsm.
!8. ln your lasL year 93-94, Lhe rsL year of Lhe paperless sLudlo, dld you Lake LhaL class?
Lk. 1he paperless sLudlo came a couple of years laLer. l was one of Lhe very rsL people
who was uslng Lhe compuLer. lf you wanL Lhe back end sLory of Lhls l'll send you
someLhlng [Lk lnLervlew from A8AlnCS]. 8uL, baslcally ln 1992 l boughL an SCl, l
sLarLed uslng Solmage, l sLarLed dolng anlmauon and modellng, Lhere were very few
oLher people ln new ?ork who were dolng LhaL. l was perhaps Lhe only sLudenL aL
Columbla dolng lL. ln 93 l wroLe a proposal for Lhe school whlch l gave Lo 8ernard
ouLllnlng whaL soware and hardware we would need Lo buy for Lhe school. l goL very
lnvolved wlLh LhaL. l was acLually 1.A.lng Lhlrd year sLudlos when l was a second year
sLudenL. l was Leachlng compuLer courses and, yeah, when l graduaLed from Lhe school
ln 1994 l was a 1A for Creg and for !esse and nanako ln 93 and 96. l sLarLed Leachlng ln
1996 aL 8l (8ensselaer olyLechnlc lnsuLuLe). So Lhe rsL year l was Leachlng was 1996,
Lhe rsL year l LaughL aL Columbla was 1998. 8uL Lhe rsL real paperless sLudlo was 1993
-. l Lhlnk Lhe sprlng of 93.
!8. l Lhlnk Lhe rsL cover of an AbsLracL LhaL was a renderlng, noL as a represenLauon buL
as generauve pro[ecL Lhrough dlglLal Lools, was ln '93-'94. 1he rsL paperless sLudlo was
[usL wlLh slx Leachers, Panl 8ashld, Creg Lynn, Scou Marble, SLan Allen, keller LasLerllng
and 8ernard 1schuml. l guess Lhe equlpmenL was very expenslve so LhaL's why lL sLarLed
wlLh very few sLudenLs.
Lk. lL was very expenslve [more Lhan $30k ln 1992], and lL was very dlmculL because Lhe
rsL move was Lo geL Solmage, whlch was an lncredlbly expenslve soware, runnlng on
very expenslve compuLers. So Lhe rsL SCl (Slllcon Craphlcs lnLernauonal) LhaL Lhey had,
Lhey acLually managed Lo geL donaLed Lo Lhe school by Solmage wlLh free soware on
lL, Lhls was Lhrough Lhe work LhaL Lden Mulr and 8ory C'nelll dld ralslng money and
bulldlng connecuons wlLh Lhe soware and hardware companles. Lden and 8ory acLually
helped geL money from a granL whlch as l recall, Columbla CSA spllL wlLh Columbla
School of !ournallsm. 1here was a decenL amounL of money, maybe someLhlng llke a
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mllllon dollars. l don'L know how Lhe money was deployed, buL Lhls was a very
lmporLanL granL. uurlng Lhls perlod Lden plcked people ln Lhe arL hlsLory deparLmenL Lo
work wlLh Lo creaLe anlmauons of Lhe reconsLrucuon of caLhedrals. l don'L remember
whaL caLhedral lL was.lL mlghL have been a klnd of an analyucal anlmauon of Amlens
CaLhedral, l don'L remember whlch one, buL lL was a beauuful Lhlng for Lhe ume, even
now lL would be a beauuful anlmauon. And LhaL was one of Lhe ways LhaL Lhey ralsed
consclousness of whaL Lhe soware and hardware would do. 1haL was all Laklng place aL
Lhe same ume and 8ernard was clearly aware LhaL LhaL was Lhe way Lhe school had Lo
go. So.buL we dlgress.
!8. ln 1991 eLer Llsenman.?ou worked for eLer Llsenman, dldn'L you?
Lk. lL was ln 1992. l wasn'L a deslgner- all l dld was renderlngs for Lhe Moeblus 1ower
(Max 8elnhardL Paus). 1he deslgners were: Llndy 8oy, 8lck Lausanne, eLc. l worked on
LhaL dolng renderlngs and l also was worklng for a number of oLher rms LhaL year whlle
l was a second year sLudenL. l was ln Lhe school buL l was dolng compeuuons for kl, for
Ld Mllls .dolng renderlngs on some, deslgn on oLhers. Ld Mllls was dolng collaborauon
wlLh erklns and Wlll [a larger corporaLe rm] for a compeuuon for Lhe pollce
headquarLers ln Lhe 8ronx. So l dld renderlngs for LhaL around Lhe same ume l was dolng
renderlngs for eLer, and a few oLher compeuuons Lhe nexL sprlng. l dld aL leasL 13
compeuuons, wlLh oLher rms and on my own, durlng my second and my Lhlrd year aL
Lhe CSA.
!8. Pow dld you sLarL Lo Leach ln 1998?
Lk. l had meL a number of umes wlLh 8ernard because l wroLe a proposal for new
lnfrasLrucLure and new soware. Cf course 8ernard had seen my work on nal revlews.
And l had worked for Creg Lynn on Cardl and ?okohama. WlLh Creg Lynn we [myself
and Cregg asquarelll] worked a blL on anoLher compeuuon before Lhose whlch was
called Cabrlnl Creen (1993), we dldn'L nlsh LhaL compeuuon buL we dld do a blL of
research work on LhaL. And l helped ouL Creg Lynn's omce on a couple of oLher pro[ecLs
dolng renderlngs, and pumng up an exhlblL LhaL we dld aL ArusL's Space, l don'L
remember when LhaL was, l Lhlnk lL was more llke 96. l goL my rsL Leachlng glg aL 8l ln
96. AL LhaL polnL Sanford (kwlnLer) was acLually aL 8l for a year and a half or Lwo years.
!8. WhaL ls 8l?
Lk. lL ls Lhe 8ensselaer olyLechnlc lnsuLuLe. A number of people sLarLed Leachlng Lhere.
!8. Where ls lL?
Lk. 1roy, abouL Len mlles from Albany n?. 1hey had [usL gouen a new dean, Alan 8alfour,
who had been aL Lhe AA. And Sanford kwlnLer had been hlred Lo sLarL a new posL
graduaLe program aL 8l- whlch never sLarLed, for varlous reasons. AL Lhe ume, l came
ln, !ason ayne, !oe Macdonald who's now aL Parvard.
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!8. ?ou were ln your Lwenues.
Lk. Well, ln 1996 l was LhlrLy.?eah, a number of people wenL Lhrough LhaL school. lL was
a place Lo go and Leach, klnd of llke rau, when you rsL geL ouL of school. ClLy College
ln new ?ork ClLy, LhaL's anoLher place where recenL graduaLes oen geL Lhelr rsL
Leachlng glgs. So l LaughL Lhere for a few years, l also LaughL aL 8ennlngLon College,
arsons ln n?C, and l conunued worklng on pro[ecLs ln new ?ork ClLy, dolng
compeuuons, and golng Lo a loL of revlews aL Columbla and rau. 1here were a number
of people Lhere who were lncredlbly supporuve. 8lll Macuonald, Sulan kolaLan, Lvan
uouglls.
!8. uld you paruclpaLe ln Lhe An? conferences or ln An? magazlne?
Lk. l dldn'L paruclpaLe ln any of Lhe conferences. l wroLe one or Lwo llule pleces for
some of Lhe magazlnes. l dld a book revlew for CynLhla, Creg Lynn was very supporuve,
he lnvlLed me ln underneaLh hls wlng, Lo conLrlbuLe a blL Lo some oLher pleces here and
Lhere, so l wroLe a shorL plece on movemenL ln rock cllmblng, acLually lL wasn'L even a
plece! lL was Lhree capuoned plcLures! And l also paruclpaLed ln Lhe Mech-ln-1ech
dlscusslon, Lhey were havlng onllne, l Lhlnk ln 1993, maybe, around Lhe sprlng of 93.
1haL was publlshed ln An? magazlne aL Lhe ume.
!8. l checked all Lhe AbsLracLs, Lhe An?s, and l am also lnLeresLed ln Au, Lhe 8rlush
magazlne Atcbltectotol ueslqo, because l Lhlnk Lhls ls one of Lhe magazlnes LhaL rsL
lncorporaLed Lhe AvanL Cardes, so l have been Lraclng lLs lssues slnce Lhe 80s Lhrough
Lhe 90s. And l found you Lhere a couple of umes. 1he lasL one wlLh an exhlbluon LhaL
you dld ln LA.
Lk. ?eah, Lxpanded clnema.
!8. ln Lhe lssue called collecuve lotelllqeoce. so you have paruclpaLed ln very lmporLanL
tblok tooks, alLhough all Lhese evenLs came aer whaL l am Lrylng Lo explaln wlLh my
hu.
Lk. ?eah.
!8. WhaL ls your relauonshlp wlLh Lhe Moobouoo 1toosctlpts? uo you Lhlnk lL's an
lmporLanL book for archlLecLs?
Lk. Moobouoo 1toosctlpts was enormously lmporLanL for me, buL l don'L Lhlnk lL ls
lmporLanL for many archlLecLs, because mosL archlLecLs geL close enough or pay enough
auenuon Lo whaL 8ernard was researchlng ln Lhe 1toosctlpts: a radlcal problemauzauon
of Lhe producuon of consclousness, wheLher Lhrough archlLecLural meLhodology,
represenLauon, or Lhrough oLher means. 1be Moobouoo 1toosctlpts ls an auempL Lo
break LhaL down lnLo a provlslonal seL of caLegorles, uslng Lhe SLM Lrlad ( Space-LvenL-
MovemenL).
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!8. . you know, Lhere are a loL of parallellsms beLween koolhaas and 1schuml. 1hey
boLh came from Lhe AA (ArchlLecLural Assoclauon) Lo new ?ork, Lhey boLh wenL Lo Lhe
lAuS (lnsuLuLe for ArchlLecLure and urban SLudles), Lhey wroLe a book abouL new ?ork,
Lhey boLh were nallsLs ln Lhe La vllleue Compeuuon, and so on, and so on. PlsLorlcally,
koolhaas ls gemng Lhe mosL noLorleLy and uelltloos New otk ls now consldered one of
Lhe mosL lmporLanL books of archlLecLure ln Lhe lasL quarLer of Lhe xx cenLury. 8uL Lhe
ldeas ln boLh books, Lhose relaLed Lo Lhe manlpulauon of programs or evenLs, are
slmllar. 1he ldeas of Lransprogrammlng for example.
Lk. uelltloos New otk ls a book LhaL people can read and lmmedlaLely pull obvlous
answers Lo obvlous quesuons ouL of. Moobouoo 1toosctlpts ls noL a pro[ecL LhaL people
can do LhaL wlLh. Moobouoo 1toosctlpts ls a.lf you wlll, uelltloos New otk ls fully
aware, lLself, LhaL lL ls a LexL of pleasure. uslng 8arLhes' crlLerla Lo dlsungulsh beLween
LexL of pleasure and LexL of bllss, a LexL of pleasure can be absorbed and dlrecLly
experlenced.pleasure, uncrlucal" pleasure ls creaLed. 8llss however creaLes frlcuon.
Moobouoo 1toosctlpts ls a LexL of bllss. AL leasL ln reLrospecL LhaL's how Lhe cards have
played ouL. ?ou may nd lL funny LhaL l would say LhaL abouL 8em koolhaas, and abouL
uelltloos New otk, because mosL people would say 8em ls AvanL Carde and uelltloos
New otk ls an lnLellecLually crlucal plece of work. 8uL Lhe facL ls LhaL uelltloos New otk
ls someLhlng LhaL can geL LranslaLed lnLo Lhe mlnd of sLudenLs, lnLo Lhe mlnds of
pracuuoners, and ulumaLely can lead sLralghL Lo MarLha SLewarL, whlch lL dld, by LhaL l
mean 8em's evenLual connecL Lo MarLha SLewarL. ?ou see whaL l am saylng, Lhere ls a
paLhway Lhere by whlch lL greases Lhe wheels for a movemenL lnLo pop culLure. very,
very smooLhly.
!8. l don'L know who MarLha SLewarL ls, buL l can guess who she ls.
Lk. Ck. MarLha SLewarL ls a gure of malnsLream Amerlcan culLure.cooklng, lnLerlor
deslgn, you know.!"#$%&'()*"'%. So, look, lL sounds llke l have been harsh ln my
assessmenL of 8em. l am noL. 8em ls lncredlbly lnLeresung. 8uL 8ernard dldn'L Lry Lo do
LhaL, he dld someLhlng dlerenL whlch ls much harder Lo dlgesL, frankly. 8ernard's
pro[ecL was.well, lL was La vllleue and lL was Columbla. lL was a body of Lheory whlch
can'L LranslaLe dlrecLly lnLo pop culLure. And whlch ls more dlmculL for sLudenLs and
oLher archlLecLs Lo absorb. Whlch ls ln my oplnlon whaL 1be Moobouoo 1toosctlpts ls. ln
LhaL sense lL ls closer Lo eLer's work. 8ecause much of eLer's work ls much more
dlmculL -as you well know because you are sLudylng lL- for a malnsLream absorpuon.
eLer mlghL be able Lo bulld museums or sLadla, buL Lhe deeper aspecLs of hls work
don'L geL LranslaLed lmmedlaLely, Lhey are laLenL, Lhey are hldden messages, Lhey are a
sLeganography lf you wlll, a hldden wrlung. 8ernard's work ls lnvesLed ln LhaL same
pracuce. 8em ls Lrylng Lo do Lhe same buL he found a channel Lo op CulLure, Lo
governmenLs, Lo clues, Lo reglons, whlch elLher by sklll, personallLy, luck or sLraLegy,
enabled hlm Lo bulld pro[ecLs LhaL oLhers would have loved Lo bulld buL dldn'L for one
reason or anoLher. 8uL, my polnL ls Lo plck up on your observauon: Lhere was 8ernard,
he wrlLes a book abouL n?C and comes from Lhe AA, eLc. and Lhere was 8em, Lhey are
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parallellng each oLher, l mean we always LhoughL when we were sLudenLs [ln Lhe early
90s] Lhey had Lo be rlvals, very sLrong rlvals. l can Lell you an anecdoLe. Alex Wall was a
SLudlo Crluc of mlne when l was aL Columbla, he now runs a school ln Cermany aL
karlsruhe. Pe worked for 8em ln Lhe beglnnlng, SLefano ue Maruno also worked for 8em
ln Lhe beglnnlng, Lhey co-LaughL sLudlos and semlnars aL Columbla, and l was lucky
enough Lo have Lhem as my crlucs. AL LhaL ume l was a llule dlsappolnLed wlLh some of
Lhe experlences l'd had aL Columbla acLually, and Alex and SLefano really saved lL for me.
l meL Lhem exacLly aL Lhe momenL l was meeung !esse and Creg. So somehow l mlssed
some of Lhe people who l would besL have ued wlLh aL Columbla unul Lhe end of my
second year. And Lhen l made Lhese connecuons whlch were very lmporLanL
lnLellecLually and professlonally. ln my Lhlrd year Alex and SLefano were really Lhe klnd of
savlng grace for me. l was able Lo have conversauons wlLh Lhem abouL whaL l wanLed Lo
do ln my pro[ecLs LhaL for varlous reasons l hadn'L been able Lo have wlLh oLher crlucs.
Ck, so aL Lhe end of my experlence aL Columbla, Alex sald you know maybe you should
Lalk Lo 8em and go Lo work for 8em. l sald, Well LhaL sounds exclung, l have my own
pracuce ln new ?ork Lhough, noL as an archlLecL buL as a consulLanL. So, l don'L know lf l
wanL Lo leave new ?ork." And Alex sald ?ou really should meeL 8em." Pe felL so sLrongly
abouL lL LhaL he seL up a meeung beLween 8em, and me, and anoLher sLudenL l was
close Lo aL Lhe ume: Cregg asquarelll. Cregg and l were sharlng a llve/work space and
occaslonally collaboraung. So, 8em was ln new ?ork, Alex goL ln Louch wlLh us and sald
8em ls ln new ?ork, he's golng Lo meeL you guys. So, he came over, Lo our aparLmenL.
And had breakfasL wlLh us. We puL ouL a nlce spread.you know, coee, snacks. 1o be
perfecLly honesL l had no ldea how blg a deal lL was. When l goL ouL of school aL
Columbla l was so relaxed abouL Lhlngs, l was more relaxed aL LhaL momenL ln 1994 LhaL
l would ever be agaln ln my llfe ever (laughs).. So whaL happened ... Alex sald, 8em ls
golng Lo be ln Lown Lomorrow, you guys are golng Lo plck hlm up ln a Laxl, aL hls hoLel".
Pe was sLaylng aL a hoLel he favored ln n?, apparenLly, l Lhlnk lL was Lhe Cramercy ark.
So l wenL up Lhere ln a cab and 8em came ouL and we rode back Lo my aparLmenL. now,
Lhe Lhlng ls LhaL Lhe aparLmenL wasn'L a small aparLmenL, lL was a huge lo ln Llule lLaly.
Where we had an omce seL up as well. And lL was seL up as an lncredlbly good llve-work
space. So lL wasn'L llke lnvlung 8em Lo a llule aparLmenL. lL was llke lnvlung hlm Lo an
omce baslcally, even Lhough Lhere were only Lhree of us ln Lhe space and we dldn'L
really have an omce yeL. So he came over and we showed hlm our sLudenL work. Cregg
showed hlm hls work, l showed hlm my work. We showed hlm Lhe compeuuons we had
been dolng wlLh Creg Lynn.all LhaL sLu. And aL Lhe end of lL he sald someLhlng along
Lhe llnes of 1hls ls lnLeresung sLu, so, whaL are you guys golng Lo do now, you wanL Lo
come work for us or someLhlng?" And we boLh looked and we sald We'll have Lo gure
ouL, we need Lo Lhlnk abouL lL" (laughs). Cregg asquarelll Lells Lhls sLory also, very
wonderfully, you know, lL's a klnd of a [oke l Lhlnk for een years now beLween me and
Cregg, baslcally we had a greaL lnLervlew wlLh 8em, he was very klnd Lo us, very nlce,
we were very pollLe, and we baslcally Lurned down a poLenual [ob. (laughs). ln
reLrospecL l sull Lhlnk lL may have been one of Lhe sLupldesL Lhlngs l've ever done ln my
llfe.
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!8. Well, he would remember you for LhaL.
Lk. l don'L know lf he wlll. l don'L Lhlnk he wlll remember me [chuckles]. ln any case ln
Lhe cab rlde down from hls hoLel, we Lrled Lo have a conversauon, and honesLly l had
really noL evolved enough yeL Lo have a conversauon wlLh 8em koolhaas, abouL
anyLhlng. l suspecL 8em dldn'L know LhaL, so he was Lrylng Lo have a real dlalog wlLh me,
and one of Lhe Loplcs was Lhe relauonshlp he had wlLh Columbla. l sald someLhlng llke
?ou know, lL would greaL lf you were around aL Columbla more", [usL belng frlendly, as a
sLudenL who ls abouL Lo graduaLe from school would be, and he sald someLhlng llke ?es,
l really would llke Lo be around more oen also, so l wlsh someLhlng could be done
abouL LhaL." lL wasn'L clear Lo me aL Lhe ume buL ln reLrospecL l reallzed he perhaps saw
me as an lnformal condulL Lo 8ernard, perhaps noL. 1hls anecdoLe lllusLraLes LhaL
speculauon, LhaL some folks Lhlnk Lhey have always been rlvals on one level, buL for my
parL, l can'L say. l Lhlnk Lhey musL respecL each oLher enormously regardless... alLhough
lL may sound naive of me Lo say LhaL.
!8. Llsenman Lold me lasL week LhaL Lhere are oedlpal problems. 1he rsL ls beLween
hlmself and Creg Lynn, llke Lhe faLher and Lhe son. And Lhen ln a more horlzonLal level
Lhe [ealous broLhers, 8ernard 1schuml and 8em koolhaas. (laughs).someumes we Lalk
abouL famlly mauers. So my Lhesls ls abouL Lhese Lhree guys, and 8em koolhaas ls golng
Lo be llke a shadow, same wlLh Lhe word deconsLrucuvlsm". l mean, lL ls very dlmculL Lo
Lalk abouL Lhe perlod beLween 78-93 wlLhouL feellng Lhe smell of 8em. Pe ls now a
colossus. Pls wrlungs are everywhere, maybe Loo prescrlpuve or pragmauc, of hls
archlLecLural pracuce, buL now he ls Lhe one. Anyway, l am lmpressed because lL seems
LhaL l am descrlblng a famlly, and how Lhls famlly ls lrradlaung concepLs. l guess new
?ork clLy helps ln Lhls, becomlng a cenLer of radlauon.
Lk. 1here ls no quesuon LhaL n?C ln Lhe sevenues [was a powerful force Lo change and
mold people], l only vaguely remember lL, my famlly came from new ?ork ClLy, we le
Lhe ClLy, my faLher conunued Lo work ln Lhe clLy so l came lnLo Lhe clLy frequenLly. l
remember lL belng an lncredlbly lnLense, harsh dangerous place. 8uL LhaL ls my
recollecuon as a chlld, you know, ve or slx years old, Len years old. l can lmaglne LhaL
for 8ernard and 8em comlng Lo new ?ork ClLy aL LhaL polnL, aL Lhe age Lhey were whlch
would have been maybe een or LwenLy years older Lhan me, lL musL have been earLh-
shauerlng. new ?ork musL have been one of Lhe mosL lncredlble clues ln Lhe world,
perlod, 1be clty Lo be ln. 1here ls no doubL LhaL LhaL was Lhe case. 1here probably also
was a llule blL of lL belng Lhe exclung place Lhey had gone Lo aL a speclc momenL ln
Lhelr llves, whlch became a klnd of a roseua sLone for decodlng all oLher urban
experlences ever aer. !usL as when one rsL falls ln love, lL becomes a roseua sLone for
decodlng everyLhlng else aer, for many people aL leasL. ?ou know whaL l am gemng aL.
lL ls a klnd of nosLalgla, whlch even Lhe mosL crlucal mlnd can have abouL Lhe vorLex of
new ?ork ClLy, Lhe lnLenslLy of new ?ork ClLy ln Lhe sevenues.
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!8. uo you know Lhe anecdoLe of Lhe 8ed Square ln Moscow?...( l Lell hlm Lhe same sLory
agaln)
Lk. 1haL's greaL! WhaL a greaL sLory!
!8. Llsenman dldn'L know LhaL sLory buL !erey klpnls dld.
Lk. very nlce. ?ou know, Lhere ls a novel by Adolfo 8loy Casares 1be loveouoo of Motel".
1hls book was ln parL Lhe basls for a screenplay LhaL Alaln 8obbe-CrllleL wroLe for lost
eot lo MotleoboJ, Lhe lm by 8esnals . Whlch ls an lncredlble, lncredlble lm. 1he
reason l'm brlnglng Lhls up ls Lhere ls.Lhere ls a melancholy ln Lhe sLory of Motel, you
should read lL, because lL ls enurely abouL a speclc model of ume and whaL lL means Lo
be consclous of hlsLory, and wheLher llnear progresslon and evoluuons ln ume are
posslble or noL. Slnce Lhe maln characLer ulumaLely has Lo make a declslon abouL
wheLher Lhey go on llvlng, or dle and Lrap Lhelr own lmage ln a recordlng. l lmaglne boLh
8ernard and eLer would be famlllar wlLh Lhls novel ... 8loy Casares was a frlend of
8orges, and 8orges wroLe an early revlew of 1be loveouoo of Motel halllng lL as a
masLerplece.... So, l would be surprlsed lf Lhey [81 & L] dldn'L boLh know lL. lL's such a
profound sLaLemenL, a melanchollc sLaLemenL abouL wheLher ume exlsLs, wheLher
repeuuon or change rule Lhe world, and whaL we as humans can do ln relauonshlp Lo
LhaL quesuon of repeuuon. lor boLh 8ernard and eLer, Lhelr enure body of work has
engaged LhaL dlrecLly. Cbvlously Lhey are very dlerenL archlLecLs, and Lhey undoubLedly
have dlerenL Lakes on whaL ume ls and wheLher change ls posslble or noL
[onLologlcally]. 8uL l Lhlnk LhaL LhaL's Lhe klnd of quesuon aL Lhe crux of Lhelr work: Lo
unfold wheLher ume ls real and whaL lLs naLure ls. Pow archlLecLure as a dlsclpllne can
funcuon as a Lool Lo ask LhaL quesuon, wheLher ume ls real, and how we can poLenually
creaLe nolse or change wlLhln LhaL ume.
!8. l wanL Lo ask eLer Loday.l have an analogy beLween Lhe Lhree Lheses on 8ergson by
ueleuze, abouL movemenL ln cloemo 1 and leL's say lLs refracuon ln archlLecLure. Maybe
lL ls Loo llLeral. 1he rsL one ls LhaL lL ls wrong Lo auempL Lo bulld movemenL from sLauc
lmages. 8uL we do lL all Lhe ume. So Lhe rsL one would be Lhe frame", Lhe frozen
movemenL. ln Lerms of archlLecLure, Lhere have been several auempLs Lo freeze
movemenL llke ln Lhe 8aroque for example, or even now Creg Lynn. 1he second Lhesls ls
Lhe reconsLrucuon of movemenL Lhrough a sequence of sLauc lmages. 1here are Lwo
ways, Lhe classlcal Lhrough prlvlleged or eldeuc lmages, and Lhen Lhe modern one, whlch
ls Lhe reconsLrucuon Lhrough ooy-ume-wbotevet. ln archlLecLure, we could nd Lhls for
example ln several of Llsenman's pro[ecLs, where dlerenL sLages ln Lhe Lransformauon
of an ob[ecL are lnLersecLed, as ln an Ldward Muybrldge chronophoLography. llnally, we
have Lhe Lhlrd, ln whlch movemenL ls undersLood as a secuon of durauon, as Lhe frame
was a secuon of a movemenL. And LhaL lmplles a Lhlcker ldea of ume, a
muludlmenslonal ldea of ume. And Lhls ldea of ume ls whaL l am Lrylng Lo show wlLhln
archlLecLure ln my hu. 1haL's why l choose eLer Llsenman's Cannareglo as Lhe sLarung
polnL of my hu. l am aware of cerLaln lnLeresung precedenLs ln 8ossl and Pe[duk.
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Maybe 1schuml's La vllleue has Lhls klnd of culLural lncorporauon of dlerenL ume
dlmenslons. 1hls ls my analogy of 8ergson's Lhree Lheses on movemenL Lhrough Lhe
opucs of archlLecLure.
Lk. l see lL. l see lL very well. l Lhlnk you can have an exLremely producuve conversauon
wlLh all Lhree of Lhose guys, abouL exacLly LhaL. l also Lhlnk LhaL one of Lhe blggesL
problems of Lhe appllcauon [of ueleuze's Clnema books].Lhere are a few reasons why
cloemo 1 and cloemo 2 slmply aren'L applled by archlLecLs, Lhey are very dlmculL books.
Cne needs Lo have a preuy comprehenslve knowledge of Lhe lms he ls Lalklng abouL...
Lhls ls a polnL LhaL l Lhlnk 8odowlck made on ueleuze ... Lhe polnL LhaL... [Lhlnklng] no lL
was 8adlou l belleve- (Alaln 8adlou) who made a commenL ln hls book on ueleuze
(ueleuze: 1he Clamor of 8elng).Lo Lhe eecL LhaL ueleuze wroLe Lhese books almosL
wlLh Lhe assumpuon LhaL someone readlng Lhem would be famlllar wlLh Lhe resL of hls
body of work. So he ls carrylng on a conversauon LhaL you can only really fully engage lf
you've read all of hls oLher works, all of hls ma[or works. Anyway: wlLh LhaL polnL belng
sald, lL ls fucklng hard Lo exLrapolaLe from cloemo 1 and cloemo 2 ln a producuve
manner. noL [usL lmmakers, buL anyone Lrylng Lo pull someLhlng ouL of cloemo 1 or
cloemo 2.
!8. Whlch ls for you Lhe mosL lnuenual work by ueleuze ln Lhe archlLecLural mllleu? l
know LhaL ln 1991 was Lhe rsL ume ueleuze was quoLed ln an archlLecLural LexL. l
mean.Lhe rsL ume LhaL l read Llsenman quoung ueleuze was ln 1991 wlLh Lhe
8ebsLockpark pro[ecL. 1he Lranslauon Lo Lngllsh of 8etqsoolsm ls ln 1988, same year LhaL
Lhe ueconsLrucuon show ln MoMA. 1he Lranslauon of A 1boosooJ lloteoox Lo Lngllsh ls
one year before.
Lk. 88, ?eah, LhaL's rlghL. l LhoughL you sald 98, and l remember readlng lL before.
!8. Clnema comes laLer. l know LhaL Lhere was a book LhaL Llsenman Lold me was hls rsL
readlng of ueleuze, whlch ls Lhe 8acon one.
Lk. ..lL ls Lhe loqlc of seose book buL lL ls noL Lhe blg one. l haven'L read LhaL book.
!8. When you were ln Columbla ln Lhose very lnLeresung years, LhaL was when Lhe
ueleuze dlscourse emerged ln archlLecLure.
Lk. l read 8ergsonlsm ln 1993 l Lhlnk. Look, Lhere ls anoLher argumenL here, l wanL Lo
exLend Lhls because you ralse Lhe quesuon of Lhe Lra[ecLory from Lhe Movemeot-lmoqe
Lo Lhe 1lme-lmoqe and how LhaL can geL bullL ouL [by archlLecLs]. 1here ls anoLher polnL
LhaL ueleuze makes ln relauon Lo Lhls ln Lhe cloemo books, whlch ouLllnes Lhree
dlerenL models of memory. ln Lhe rsL case we have auLomauc recollecuon, ln Lhe
second auenuve recollecuon, and ln Lhe Lhlrd lnvenuve: a dream memory, Lhls ls
where Lhe 1lme lmage comes lnLo play, as Lhe ume-lmage ls noL [usL a vlsual lmage buL
ls lndeed relaLed Lo a concepL LhaL 8ernard has been ... worklng Lhrough on a
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pedagoglcal level ln hls sLudlos recenLly [2007-08]. 1he concepL lmage [concepL-
conLexL-conLenL] ln a sLudlo LhaL he dld a couple of years ago. As well as hls omce.

[lor ueleuze ] Lhe Lerm lmage ls noL [usL an lmoqe, lL ls more llke a concepL sLrucLure.
ueleuze uses lm lllusLrauvely Lo play Lhls explorauon ouL. 1hese Lhree models of
memory can geL ued back Lo dlerenL klnds of lnsLrumenLs, Lechnlques ln lm belng one
seL of examples, buL lL ls much more dlmculL Lo ue Lhe concepL of an auLomauc memory
sLrucLure Lo an archlLecLural frame or Lo a lmlc frame Lhan lL ls Lo ue Lhe baslc ldea of
framlng. ueleuze ln Lhe cloemo books ls maklng a layered readlng of Lhese problems
comlng ouL of 8ergson and oLhers [verLov, for example], because obvlously framlng has
sometbloq Lo do wlLh llLerally framlng- buL [usL as llLeral movemenL does noL produce a
ume lmage, llLeral framlng or breaklng of a llLeral frame does noL produce a ume lmage.
So Lhe Lranslauon problem for us as deslgners and Lhlnkers ls a blg sLumbllng block, lL ls
hard for people Lo pull useful maLerlal ouL of ueleuze and Cuauarl. 8ecause Lhey speak
very preclsely abouL Lerms LhaL oen umes archlLecLs and lmmakers are very hasLy Lo
llLerallze and LranslaLe lnLo Lhelr dlsclpllnes.
l know you have Lo go. So leL's geL walklng.

!8. l cannoL be laLe Lo speak Lo Llsenman. (we go LogeLher from Lhe llule resLauranL ln
17
Lh
sLreeL Lo Llsenman's Cmce ln 23
Lh
sLreeL, and ln Lhe door we sald goodbye).

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