Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 10

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos
THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
R E P O R T OF T H E I N S P E C T O R S
A P P O I N T E D TO E N Q U I R E INTO T H E
A F F A I R S OF A N S B A C H E R (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
V O L U M E [10]: A P P E N D I X X V ( 9 6 ) TO X V ( 1 1 1 )
ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (96) Mr Maurice Neligan and Dr Patricia
Neligan
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Maurice Neligan and Dr Patricia Neligan.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Maurice Neligan dated 10 February 2000.
b) Transcript of evidence of Dr Patricia Neligan dated 11 February 2000.
c) Letter of 12 September 1986 - Guinness and Mahon to Maurice & Patricia

Neligan.
d) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo dated 17 September 1986 from Pat
O'Dwyer.
e) Guinness and Mahon statement of 11 December 1986 re Patricia Neligan.
f) Guinness and Mahon statement of 20 November 1986 re GMCT/College.
g) Copy statement - Ansbacher Limited/College of 18 April 1989.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Maurice Neligan.
a) Letter of 10 December 2001 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

Inspectors.
b) Letter of 21 December 2001 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

Inspectors.
c) Letter of 7 January 2002 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

Inspectors.
Appendix XV (96) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MAURICE NELIGAN
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 10TH FEBRUARY 2000
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. MAURICE NELIGAN
Represented by: Mr. John Lavery
Lavery Kirby & Co
Main Street
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTIONS
MR. MAURICE NELIGAN MR. ROWAN 1-71
MS. MACKEY 72 - 122
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 123 - 155

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 10TH FEBRUARY 2 000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will start our
5 interview now. I am
6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on
7 my left is Mr. Rowan, and we were appointed, as you
8 know, by the High Court as Inspectors. Ms. Cummins
9 is our solicitor and she will administer the oath
10 now to you.
11
12 MR. MAURICE NELIGAN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
13 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. ROWAN
14
15 1 Q. MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Neligan.
16 A. Good morning.
17 2 Q. Mr. Neligan, we wrote to you inviting you to come
18 for this interview and we suggested it might be
19 helpful if you were able to provide us with a
20 statement and supporting documents.
21 A. Yes.
22 3 Q. You have not done so?
23 A. No. I did not receive your letter until early
24 January, and I then got on to Mr. Lavery and my
25 accountants, Woods & Co., to prepare the relevant
26 statements and get them back to you. I also rang
27 here to explain that I had done this and I was told
28 to bring it along, if necessary, and to try to get
29 it in beforehand if I could. Now, one of the
4
1 reasons it has been quite difficult is because we
2 have had some difficulty in getting all the relevant
3 information from the bank. Originally, I gave a
4 letter of authority to Mr. Woods way back in
5 September, or thereabouts, to get all relevant
6 documents from the bank, and a similar letter to
7 Mr. Lavery more recently. Even to this day, we have
8 not got everything that they feel they need to
9 answer absolutely everything that you have asked me.
10 I am sorry for that, but it has not been for want of
11 trying.
12 4 Q. I see.
13 A. This is really -- I might hand it over to you --
14 (Documents handed over) there is a preamble and then
15 the supporting documents. Mr. Lavery assures me
16 everything we have at present is there.
17 5 Q. All right. It is going to be difficult, I think, to
18 deal with that in an intelligent way now, so what I
19 suggest is that we are going to have to look at that
20 after this interview. It may well be that some of
21 the things that we will ask you will be dealt with
22 in that, in which case so much the better. I think
23 we will do it that way. We will not look at that
24 now and we will carry on with the interview.
25 A. Very well, yes.
26 6 Q. Perhaps it would be useful, Mr. Neligan, if you
27 would just describe a little your background, just
28 for the record, please. You are a surgeon?
29 A. I am a cardiac surgeon. I am a Director of the
5
1 National Cardiac Surgical Unit in the Mater Hospital
2 and my private practice is carried on now largely in
3 the Blackrock Clinic. I am also surgeon to our
4 Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin. I am
5 a native Dulbiner, I live just down the road,
6 married to Dr. Patricia Neligan, who is also in this
7 inquiry, and I have seven children.
8 7 Q. You have also, over the years, had a banking
9 relationship with Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. Yes, sir. That came about through the purchase of
11 Rosefield, which is on the Merrion Road, which is
12 now the Blackrock Clinic, and I became associated
13 with Mr. James Sheehan, the orthopaedic surgeon,
14 Dr. George Duffy, Mr. Joe Sheehan, who is another
15 orthopaedic surgeon who is based in America, and
16 Mr. Pat Campbell. That was serendipity, really,
17 because at the time things were quite difficult
18 medically in the country, there were limited numbers
19 of beds, and Mr. Sheehan and I said we wanted to set
20 up a clinic, a state-of-the-art modern clinic in
21 which we could practise as we wished to do, rather
22 than just purely through the public hospitals. Now,
23 there were private hospitals at the time, but they
24 were not doing the sort of high-technology kind of
25 thing particularly that he and I were involved in.
26 His original idea was to build a consulting suite on
27 Strand Road in Merrion and I said I would not be
28 interested in any such venture unless we could
29 possibly build a hospital. This site became
6
1 available, we both thought it might be a suitable
2 area and all the negotiations for that were carried
3 out between himself and his uncle, who was James
4 Sheehan, solicitor, who figure in those documents.
5 The money for that was borrowed from Guinness &
6 Mahon. As I understand, the contact person in
7 Guinness & Mahon Bank at the time was Mr. Maurice
8 0 1 Kelly.
9 8 Q. You say you understand?
10 A. I think it is so.
11 9 Q. Did you, yourself, have much by way of direct
12 dealings with Maurice 0'Kelly or other people in the
13 bank?
14 A. No. I came over the years to know Mr. 0'Kelly
15 because he was the first, in fact, Chairman of the
16 Blackrock Clinic, and I came to know him personally.
17 But, no, I was not involved in the negotiations
18 apart from signing my name on a piece of paper. In
19 fact, I used to tell people it was quite easy to
20 borrow a million pounds because all you did was sign
21 bits of paper, you did not actually have to hand
22 anybody any money, but I seemingly was wrong.
23 10 Q. When you were involved with Guinness & Mahon, aside
24 from Maurice 0'Kelly, did you meet Mr. Desmond
25 Traynor?
26 A. No, I never met Mr. Traynor. I never heard of
27 Mr. Traynor until this thing started. No,
28 absolutely, sir, never heard of him.
29 11 Q. Then perhaps we could turn to the letter which you

1 wrote to us in response to our first letter?
2 A. Yes .
3 12 Q. This is your letter of 9th December 1999, Exhibit 1?
4 A. Yes .
5 13 Q. Do you have a copy of that?
6 A. I do not (SAME HANDED TO MR. NELIGAN) Exhibit 2.
7 Thank you.
8 14 Q. Your letter says that you have never knowingly
9 availed of the services of Ansbacher Cayman?
10 A. Yes .
11 15 Q. That you have no knowledge of a company called
12 Amiens Securities Limited?
13 A. Yes .
14 16 Q. That you have recently become aware of a lodgement
15 to an account entitled Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust
16 Re College?
17 A. Yes .
18 17 Q. You deal with some matters associated with that
19 account?
20 A. Yes .
21 18 Q. You say to the best of your knowledge the College
22 account was never formally held by Guinness & Mahon
23 as a security for various loans advanced to you.
24 That is essentially what your letter says?
25 A. Yes .
26 19 Q. What I would like to do, please, I would like then
27 to ask you to look first of all at the account in
28 the name of your wife. This is account number
29 10285008 (SAME HANDED TO MR. NELIGAN). Can you tell

1 me, just by working your way through the document,
2 what you understand that account to be about?
3 A. This account was monies that were lodged in Guinness
4 & Mahon at around that date, in two moieties, one of
5 £60,000 and one of £30,000, which were lodged in the
6 bank.
7 20 Q. In an account in the name of?
8 A. My wife, I think.
9 21 Q. The currency is?
10 A. Irish pounds, I think.
11 22 Q. It says the description is? I think you may have
12 difficulty reading it, but I believe it says
13 "resident call D/A", which I take it to mean deposit
14 account?
15 A. Yes.
16 23 Q. So, it is an Irish pounds resident deposit account?
17 A. Yes.
18 24 Q. In the name of your wife?
19 A. Yes.
20 25 Q. You see the transactions on it?
21 A. Yes.
22 26 Q. Finally, on 20th November 1986, the amount of
23 £30,278.32 was drawn. It was transferred out of the
24 account, leaving the account with a nil balance?
25 A. Yes. There are two further drawings from the
26 £60,000, that is two 30's.
27 27 Q. Yes?
28 A. One 30 rather. The 60,000 ultimately became nil.
29 28 Q. Really, the net point I was getting us to establish
9
1 was that the account got to a nil balance when, on
2 20th November 1986, £30,278.32 was drawn out of it?
3 A. Yes .
4 29 Q. All right. Really, I think that what we need to
5 establish is where that money went to.
6 A. Yes .
7 30 Q. In your letter you sent us another document -- and
8 we do have copies of this one. This is a copy of a
9 Guinness & Mahon in the account named Guinness &
10 Mahon Cayman Trust/College, Exhibit 3?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 31 Q. You sent us that with your letter and you say, "I
13 have recently become aware of a lodgement to this
14 account." What do you mean by you had recently
15 become aware?
16 A. Because I had no recollection at all, other than in
17 the most general of terms, of my dealings with
18 Guinness & Mahon, and I was, to put it mildly,
19 amazed when I found that I was in fact named in this
20 list and that I had money in the Cayman Islands,
21 because I had no recollection of that whatsoever.
22 It was only when we went back over it all, when I
23 had to go back over it all that this came to my
24 attention.
25 32 Q. Where did you get this statement from? It goes back
26 to 1986. Where did you get it?
27 A. Presumably, from Guinness & Mahon.
28 33 Q. You got it from Guinness & Mahon?
29 A. Presumably so, sir, yes.

1 34 Q. I see. May we please work our way through this
2 statement. What does it tell you?
3 A. It tells me that at some stage some of my money went
4 to this Ansbacher, whatever it is called, this
5 particular account.
6 35 Q. Could we just look at the title? It says "Guinness
7 & Mahon Cayman Trust/College", and then down below
8 that "Name MP"?
9 A. Yes .
10 36 Q. Whose account is that?
11 A. Now, there you have the trouble, because you did ask
12 in the letter that you sent me what was the
13 significance of "MP". Now, I am here on oath so I
14 would have to tell you I don't know. But, I could
15 speculate if that is of any interest to you.
16 37 Q. Please do.
17 A. We never ever were given a code or anything like
18 that by the bank. "MP" are my wife's initials, Mary
19 Patricia. They could also refer to Maurice and Pat.
20 I cannot answer that truthfully because I just do
21 not know the answer. We had no code, we were never
22 given any code. "MP" really meant nothing at all to
23 us .
24 38 Q. Is there some possibility, Mr. Neligan, that this
25 may not be to do with you at all?
26 A. It is a possibility, sir, but I really -- I just
27 cannot speculate on it, I just don't know. But, it
28 meant nothing to us, apart from the fact that they
29 are my wife's initials or it could be an amalgam of

1 Maurice and Pat. We don't know.
2 39 Q. Well, let's carry on. You notice that the currency
3 is in Irish pounds?
4 A. Yes .
5 40 Q. And that this account is described as an "external
6 call deposit account"?
7 A. Yes .
8 41 Q. On 20th November 1986, there was a credit to the
9 account -- in other words, money was transferred
10 into the account -- using the terms "EXCH Guinness &
11 Mahon Cayman", and the amount was "credit
12 £30,278.32"?
13 A. Yes .
14 42 Q. What can we conclude was happening there?
15 A. I would conclude that £30,000 of my money was, for
16 some reason, sent to the Cayman Islands, but what I
17 cannot understand is that that relates to a
18 borrowing, the whole thing relates to a borrowing of
19 £90,000 to purchase a property, and that this was
20 monies that were in the bank that were -- I think
21 the word "comfort" was used -- and that these monies
22 were invested partly; £30,000 apparently went out to
23 the Cayman Islands for some reason and £60,000
24 stayed at home for some reason. Now, why that was
25 and why it was broken up in two, I have no idea.
26 43 Q. What is perhaps interesting is that if this account
27 was created in 1986, presumably from that point on
28 you or your wife, or whoever was entitled to the
29 information in this account, got information
12
1 periodically about it?
2 A. That may well be. It came back in 1988, apparently
3 -- I am speaking now with the benefit of looking at
4 this for the last month. If you had asked me this
5 six months ago I would have said to you with my hand
6 on my heart that I didn't know I had any money in
7 the Cayman Islands.
8 44 Q. You knew you had a deposit somewhere?
9 A. I knew, sir, that I had borrowed money from Guinness
10 & Mahon, in large quantities I might add, because
11 all the original clinic monies were borrowed from
12 them and we were repaying them interest over the
13 years. They were business loans of one sort or
14 another, all of which are documented there. I know
15 then that when I wished to borrow money to buy the
16 house that it was suggested to me by somebody that
17 'you might as well borrow it from Guinness & Mahon
18 because you have got a lot of dealings with them
19 already.' Now, to be honest with you, I don't think
20 it was the bank that suggested that, that may well
21 have been my accountants at the time, who said,
22 'well, you might as well borrow it from the bank.'
23 That is the £90,000, that is in the £60,000 that
24 went for the gilts and the £30,000 that went to the
25 Cayman Islands. That is looking back on it now.
26 45 Q. Yes. I recognise that this is quite some years ago
27 and I recognise that it is not easy always to recall
28 things precisely, but what I am trying, really, a
29 very simple point to establish is, presumably,
13
1 somebody sent you a statement of account every so
2 often for this £30,000. You may well be very busy
3 with other important matters and it may be that the
4 statement did not actually find its way to you. Was
5 that possibly the case?
6 A. Yes, it is possibly the case. In any case, any
7 statements we would have received would have gone to
8 our accountants at the time. We would have passed
9 them on to them for formalisation of our accounts
10 and how we were doing our repayments and our income,
11 etc, and they would have gone to our accountants.
12 46 Q. Who were they, just for the record?
13 A. Crann & Lennon.
14 47 Q. Where are they based?
15 A. Morehampton Road, I think. Incidentally, just since
16 I was giving you a preamble, the reason I came to
17 Crann & Lennon, I am not a very financially astute
18 person, sir, money is not really my forte, as is
19 probably glaringly obvious to you by now. I started
20 off with Allied Irish Banks Income Tax Department
21 and on the advice of some colleagues transferred to
22 a man whose name escapes me now, a retired Tax
23 Inspector. This gentleman died, I think having
24 prepared one set of accounts for me, sometime in the
25 70's, and I was sold by his widow to a company
26 called O'Hare & Barry, and O'Hare & Barry
27 metamorphosed into Crann & Lennon, who then became
28 my accountants. So, it was a series of people.
29 From the early 80's on Peter Crann and Patrick

1 Lennon were the people who looked after me.
2 48 Q. You believe that the possibility is that if there
3 were statements on this account that they would have
4 found their way to Crann & Lennon?
5 A. I believe it is a possibility. They could have come
6 home to my house and we could have sent them on to
7 Crann & Lennon, but I honestly have no recollection
8 at all of it.
9 49 Q. Simply because your interest is not really in things
10 financial?
11 A. Yes .
12 50 Q. Yes, I see, right. This deposit was retained with
13 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust for how long,
14 approximately?
15 A. Again, looking back at the documents that I have, I
16 think it all came back together, the £60,000 and the
17 £30,000, it all came back together in 1989, as far
18 as I can see, when the monies were used to buy some
19 insurance policies, or whatever. As far as I know,
20 that was the end of any involvement of that money
21 overseas, or so it seems to be from looking at these
22 documents.
23 51 Q. Presumably, during the life of the deposit it earned
24 interest?
25 A. In the Cayman Islands?
26 52 Q. Wherever.
27 A. Presumably, yes.
28 53 Q. But you don't know that?
29 A. I think, from talking to my accountants, I think

1 when the money came back it was approximately
2 £38,000.
3 54 Q. Do you know whether that interest would have been
4 returned as part of your income?
5 A. I doubt it very much, sir.
6 55 Q. Why do you say that?
7 A. Well, I do not know that, but I would have thought
8 that the whole purpose of these things was that it
9 was money that was out of the country, that it was
10 not declared to the Revenue. I do not know that,
11 but that is what I would imagine.
12 56 Q. Presumably, your accountants could give a clear
13 answer to that?
14 A. I would imagine so, sir, yes.
15 57 Q. Would you establish that with them?
16 A. Yes. I have problem there, because I did in fact --
17 I found it very difficult to understand all of this.
18 I did not understand why things got split up, the
19 necessity of doing things this way, the gilt that
20 was bought with part of the money. I did not seem
21 to derive any benefit from this and I was unhappy
22 with the whole situation. When the money was
23 re-amalgamated and the things were bought, at least
24 they were names that I knew. Things like Standard
25 Charter and Friends Provident and that, they were
26 things that I knew and I felt a little bit happier
27 about it. But, I did have problems with finding out
28 from my accountants exactly how I stood and I did
29 find it difficult to get some statements about
16
1 various other things from them. I eventually
2 changed my accountants. I just said I am not really
3 happy, I had lost rapport, I had lost a sense of
4 confidence with them. I changed my accountants in
5 1992, to John K. Woods of Woods House down the road
6 here. When he looked at all of this he felt that it
7 was not something that he was comfortable with and
8 he felt that I should not have been comfortable with
9 and he felt that I should regularise it as quickly
10 as I could, which I did, and all of this money that
11 comprised all of these things became known to the
12 Revenue in 1993.
13 58 Q. That was perhaps associated with the amnesty?
14 A. Yes. All of this money became known to the Revenue
15 in 1993, and any other monies that he felt should be
16 known were made known to them.
17 59 Q. I see. Aside from this deposit account, which, as
18 you now appreciate, became an Ansbacher account
19 ...(INTERJECTION).
20 A. To my horror, sir, yes.
21 60 Q. ... did you maintain any other deposit accounts with
22 either Ansbacher, unknowing to you, or with Guinness
23 & Mahon?
24 A. No.
25 61 Q. Forgive me, we haven't had a chance to look at these
26 documents, therefore I am going through the
27 information that we know about.
28 A. May I just talk to Mr. Lavery for a second?
29 62 Q. Yes.
17
1 A. No, is the answer, just the two accounts you refer
2 to there.
3 63 Q. All right. Now, you have indicated to us that you
4 had very substantial loans from Guinness & Mahon for
5 various purposes, not the least of which was the
6 Blackrock Clinic construction.
7 A. Yes.
8 64 Q. Can you tell us just a little bit more about those
9 loans and with whom you dealt in Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. There is a schedule of them there, sir. It is part
11 of my statement to you. In fact, when all of this
12 came about I was asked who I dealt with in Guinness
13 & Mahon, and I know this may seem extraordinary to
14 you, but apart from Mr. 0'Kelly, with whom I didn't
15 deal but whom at that stage I knew through the
16 Blackrock Clinic, the only other person whose name
17 came back to me after 14 or 15 years was Mr. Lanigan
18 O'Keeffe, and the only reason his name came back to
19 me was because we used to talk about fishing. Now,
20 when I went through these, the name of Mr. Chris
21 Waite came to my attention and I do remember the
22 name, although I could not put a face on the man.
23 But, a lot of the talking about the negotiation
24 about these things would have gone on through my
25 accountants rather than through myself.
26 65 Q. Crann & Lennon?
27 A. Yes. Now, if I might make one other point. When
28 Pat Lennon, who was dealing with us mostly at that
29 time, used to come to the house, occasionally he
18
1 would have things for us to sign vis a vis the loans
2 and/or the investments, if you like to call them
3 that, or whatever. Now, he would come at 6.00 or
4 7.00 in the evening, which was a time that I
5 invariably was never there. These were particularly
6 busy years when we were doing the first heart
7 transplants and it really was very, very busy. My
8 wife would sometimes sign these. We absolutely
9 trusted Mr. Lennon and Mr. Crann, and to this day I
10 have no reason to think that they were in fact not
11 serving me correctly. But, I think that accounts
12 for the separation between my wife and myself,
13 because in all our accounts, all our business
14 dealings all our life we have had joint accounts,
15 and these are the first things that have come up in
16 which things are in one name and not in the other.
17 66 Q. What this schedule (Exhibit 4) shows is that you
18 started borrowing from Guinness & Mahon in December
19 1981?
20 A. That would be correct.
21 67 Q. There were a series of loans, with the last one on
22 the schedule being in in July 1988?
23 A. Yes, sir. When I read that loan, when I read the
24 schedule again, it seemed to be far more money than
25 I recollected borrowing. But, apparently, having
26 talked to Mr. Lavery and Mr. Doolin of Woods & Co.,
27 apparently every time they restructured the loan it
28 got a different loan number. So, the sum total
29 borrowed for the clinic was approximately -- now, it
19
1 may be clearer in the document -- approximately
2 £150,000, plus all the interest that would have
3 accrued on it, and then there was the £90,000 which
4 is completely separate and was for the personal
5 borrowing for the house. The initial borrowings
6 would have been tax deductible on a business loan.
7 The second borrowing for the house was not tax
8 deductible nor was it claimed against tax.
9 68 Q. I see. You also mentioned a little earlier that you
10 had some money invested in gilts, I think you said.
11 Can you please tell us a little about that?
12 A. Yes, that was the £60,000 deposit account, account
13 No. 10285008, and that was in Guinness & Mahon and
14 they converted it into a gilt. That also, in 1989,
15 was rejoined with the Ansbacher thing to provide the
16 money for the three insurance policies.
17 69 Q. You deposited money with Guinness & Mahon and
18 someone advised you to buy gilts with that money?
19 A. Yes, but if you ask me who it was, I have no idea.
20 70 Q. The gilts were then used as a security for various
21 borrowings?
22 A. I would assume that is the case, sir. It is not
23 officially designated as such, but I would presume
24 that -- the word that struck me, and always I
25 thought it was an unusual word given in the
26 circumstances, that the word "comfort" was used.
27 Because I had extensive borrowings from them and
28 somebody suggested to me that it would be a comfort,
29 and I always thought that the word was incongruous,
20
1 to the bank to have deposits with them as well. So,
2 I presume that is the case.
3 71 Q. What do you think they meant by "comfort"?
4 A. Well, I would think security, additional security,
5 although it is not mentioned as such in any of the
6 documents. They had all the usual securities,
7 deeds, shares, etc. But, we did owe them quite a
8 bit of money.
9 MR. ROWAN: I don't think I have any
10 more questions at this
11 point. We will adjourn for about ten minutes to
12 have a cup of coffee.
13
14 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. NELIGAN BY MR. ROWAN
15
16 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
17
18 MR. NELIGAN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
19
20 72 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Neligan, just to some
21 matters, when you sent us
22 the document which is a statement of account
23 06040233, the one with "Guinness & Mahon Cayman
24 Trust" on the top, you told us in your letter,
25 Exhibit 1, you said:
26 "I recently became aware of a lodgement

on 20th November to an account entitled
27 'Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust' and I
attach a photocopy of a statement
28 showing this lodgement."
29
21
1 Now, in answer to Mr. Rowan's questions, you said
2 you didn't understand what the letters "MP" were?
3 A. Yes.
4 73 Q. What made you think that it was your statement,
5 Exhibit 2, you sent it to us as being something
6 relevant to an account of yours?
7 A. The first, before Mr. Lavery became involved, when I
8 started to ask the bank for detailed statements, I
9 signed a letter of authority to my accountant,
10 Mr. Woods, and it was he who received this from the
11 bank as part of my file. So, I presumed then that
12 it related to me. I never questioned that, to be
13 honest with you.
14 74 Q. You never questioned it?
15 A. No, Ms. Mackey, I didn't, because he said, "This is
16 what I have got from the bank relating to you," and
17 I accepted that. I didn't have any reason to think
18 otherwise.
19 75 Q. Did he point out to you the significance of the
20 heading on it?
21 A. Ansbacher Cayman? Yes, he did. He said, "Oh, my
22 God, what were you at?" I think is what he said to
23 me, and I said, "John, I haven't the faintest idea
24 what all of this is about." That at the time was a
25 true statement from me, I hadn't the faintest idea.
26 76 Q. But that didn't give you the impetus to query this
27 with the bank and say, 'There seems to be a
28 mistake."
29 A. No, it didn't, because at this stage I had my
22
1 professional advisers doing that for me. It didn't
2 make me feel any happier, I have to tell you.
3 77 Q. That leads me perhaps to another question, because
4 you said, again in answer to Mr. Rowan, that at the
5 time of what you described as the splitting of the
6 monies, the putting of the £60,000 into one account
7 and the £30,000 into, as it now turns out, Guinness
8 & Mahon Cayman Trust, you felt uneasy about that
9 splitting of the monies?
10 A. It wasn't that I felt uneasy. I don't have any
11 recollection of it. It is looking back now at a gap
12 of 13 or 14 years and I don't have any recollection
13 of it. But, looking at it now it strikes me as odd.
14 If there was £90,000 there, why didn't they put it
15 all in the gilt or why didn't they put it all in
16 Ansbacher Cayman, or why was it done this way, and I
17 just don't understand that.
18 78 Q. Did you know at that time that it was done that way,
19 that it was in fact split?
20 A. I have no recollection of that, to be honest with
21 you. In hindsight, it obviously was done that way,
22 but the logic or the reason for it, I have no
23 knowledge of, I have no memory of it and I still do
24 not understand it.
25 79 Q. Going back then to 1992, when you changed your
26 accountants, you told us that you changed them
27 because you were not totally happy with the way
28 things were?
29 A. Yes.
23
1 80 Q. As I understood it, you seemed to say that in the
2 context of the splitting of monies?
3 A. No, it wasn't so much that. It was a general
4 feeling that we were out of sync, that we did not
5 have a rapport that I felt we probably should have
6 had. I was personally acquainted Mr. Woods and I
7 just said I felt I would rather change.
8 81 Q. I think you said then that when you went to
9 Mr. Woods he looked at your affairs and he was not
10 happy with this state of things, which again I took
11 to mean the splitting of the money?
12 A. No, I think what he in all felt was that there was
13 money there which he would find difficult to
14 understand where it came from and he felt that there
15 were irregularities which should be corrected.
16 82 Q. He made you aware in 1992 of irregularities?
17 A. He just felt that there were things that he would
18 find difficult to accept and that I should rectify
19 this in a way that was watertight, that he felt was
20 watertight.
21 83 Q. What did he indicate to you particularly that he was
22 worried about?
23 A. I honestly don't know. I think the whole scenario,
24 in particularly where the three insurance policies
25 had come from, which reverted to me when all the
26 loans were paid off. I remember he said to me,
27 "What is all this about?" I then explained to him
28 about taking out the loan in 1986, and he said
29 something to be effect that "I don't much like that
24
1 and I would find that difficult and I think we
2 better do something about that."
3 84 Q. I think you said that during the amnesty you
4 clarified the matter with the Revenue Commissioners?
5 A. Yes .
6 85 Q. Was that specifically in relation to the interest
7 that had accumulated on this deposit?
8 A. At that stage it was altogether. It had grown from
9 £90,000, which was the original, if you add the 60
10 and the 30. It had grown over the six-year period,
11 it had grown into -- it was meant to be £113,000,
12 the amalgamation of the three things. It, in fact,
13 turned out to be £111,000. That included the 60
14 plus the 30 plus any interest along the line. It
15 wasn't exactly a brilliant investment, I would have
16 to say, which again I think was part of my
17 dissatisfaction. I just felt that I would have been
18 better in the EBS, to be honest with you.
19 86 Q. I am not totally clear about what originally was a
20 £90,000 loan, I think you said, for personal reasons
21 to purchase a property?
22 A. Yes .
23 87 Q. It was this loan, as I understand it, that became
24 divided?
25 A. Yes .
26 88 Q. That loan initially was to purchase a property?
27 A. Yes .
28 89 Q. It does not appear to have been used for that; is
29 that correct?
1 A. No, I think equivalent money was borrowed from the
2 bank to purchase the property. The property was
3 purchased for £90,000.
4 90 Q. Right.
5 A. And that that lay there as comfort, security,
6 whatever, for ...(INTERJECTION).
7 91 Q. What lay there?
8 A. The £90,000, the 60 and the 30.
9 92 Q. Where did that come from?
10 A. That came from overseas, from the Isle of Man. That
11 had nothing to do with Guinness & Mahon. Now, I do
12 not have -- if you look at the very last thing of
13 the preamble I have given, I don't have any
14 documentation in relation to the opening of account
15 No. 10285008 or 06040233. We have requested full
16 details from the company and when we get them we
17 will give them to you. Now, in the immediately
18 preceding paragraph -- no, that is not really -- it
19 is just we have not received the details, but
21 93 Q. I am sorry to cut across you there, Mr. Neligan, but
22 just getting back to this, you borrowed £90,000 for
23 the purchase of a house in Kerry, I think it was?
24 A. Yes .
25 94 Q. Then monies came from the Isle of Man equivalent to
26 that amount?
27 A. Yes .
28 95 Q. Can you tell us about that?
29 A. Well, clearly, if I had £90,000 sitting in an

1 ordinary bank account in Dublin I would have bought
2 the house for £90,000. I did not have it, so I had
3 to borrow the money from somewhere. I remember
4 having several options or discussing several options
5 at the time as to where I bought my own house from,
6 whatever, and somebody at that time suggested to me,
7 "Why don't you borrow it from Guinness & Mahon?" I
8 think that probably was the accountant, but I am on
9 oath so I cannot say that for certain. He said to
10 me, "Why don't you borrow it from Guinness & Mahon?"
11 and Guinness & Mahon were amenable to it. Now,
12 there was, as I have said to Mr. Rowan, there was no
13 absolute requirement that I would put equivalent
14 monies in as security.
15 96 Q. There was no absolute requirement, but
17 A. No.
18 97 Q. ... this is where they suggested to you it might be
19 a comfort?
20 A. The word "comfort", yes, came about.
21 98 Q. Can you remember who in Guinness & Mahon used that
22 word?
23 A. No, I cannot.
24 99 Q. Can you remember who you were dealing with at that
25 time?
26 A. No. The only two names in Guinness & Mahon that I
27 dealt with, that I can remember, were Mr. Lanigan
28 O'Keeffe and Mr. Waite. They are the only two that
29 I can remember.
27
1 100 Q. It may have been one of those?
2 A. It may.
3 101 Q. You don't know?
4 A. It may even have been my accountant who suggested it
5 to me, who used the word.
6 102 Q. Anyway, whoever suggested it, it was suggested to
7 you that it would be a comfort to have money on
8 deposit in Guinness & Mahon equal to the amount that
9 you were borrowing at that time?
10 A. Yes. I could be again wrong here, Ms. Mackey, but I
11 think it was suggested to me -- as you look through
12 those schedules, you will find that in fact I owed
13 them a considerable amount of money, and it wasn't
14 just borrowing for Kerry it was borrowing for the
15 clinic and everything like that. I think it may
16 have been looking at it in an overall context as
17 well, that they would be happier if I had some money
18 in the bank.
19 103 Q. How did you organise that then?
20 A. As I say, the very last thing there, I do not have
21 the full documentation, but I did have money
22 overseas in the Isle of Man.
23 104 Q. Can you tell us where that was?
24 A. In the Bank of Ireland.
25 105 Q. The Bank of Ireland?
26 A. Yes. I would stress that this had nothing at all to
27 do with Guinness & Mahon, but it was money that was
28 overseas. Now, a lot of that -- well, I don't know
29 really if you want to know the genesis of that money
28
1 or it is of any interest to you. A lot of that
2 money was money that was paid to me by patients who
3 were non-Irish. Some of the money came -- actually,
4 £10,000 came in from the Emir of Bahrain. Various
5 people like that. Some of the money was money that
6 would certainly not have been known to the Revenue
7 Commissioners at the time. But, again, like the
8 other money, the whole thing came back in 19
9 whatever it was.
10 106 Q. At the time of the amnesty?
11 A. Everything, yes.
12 107 Q. 1993.
13 A. 1993, yes.
14 108 Q. That money, anyway, how did you physically manage to
15 get that into your account here at the time?
16 A. I don't know. That was done through the
17 accountants.
18 109 Q. Through Crann & Lennon?
19 A. Crann & Lennon, yes.
20 110 Q. Who in Crann & Lennon specifically dealt with your
21 affairs at that time and would have been
23 A. Mr. Lennon, particularly.
24 111 Q. Mr. Patrick Lennon?
25 A. Mr. Patrick Lennon, yes.
26 112 Q. The mechanics then of the transfers of monies were
27 dealt with by whom?
28 A. The mechanics, again, this was -- at the time that I
29 put money overseas, it was a time, if you remember,
29
1 extremely high taxation. I did what I shouldn't
2 have done, but what a lot of other people also did.
3 Initially, Mr. Crann was the person who was dealing
4 with this and he set up some sort of a company in
5 the Isle of Man. In fact, I think at one stage
6 there were two. Again, all of which struck me as
7 being an extraordinarily complicated thing to do,
8 because I had felt that the simplest to do would be
9 to put the money, say, in the Bank of Ireland or
10 whatever. I didn't again seem to benefit me very
11 much, because a lot of this money simply went in
12 administration, in fees, in whatever. I remember
13 becoming a bit annoyed about this and ultimately
14 insisting, "Look, I don't want any of this, I just
15 want the money in a bank," and the money then
16 reverted at some stage in the 80's totally into the
17 Bank of Ireland in the Isle of Man, where it was
18 when it came back to Ireland eventually.
19 113 Q. Prior to that it was with some company?
20 A. Yes. Now, that will become more apparent when we
21 deal with the last two lines of my statement to you.
22 We will have to wait until the documents come in.
23 Again, we think we know, but we are not certain.
24 114 Q. Yes. Can I ask you, Mr. Neligan, did you ever
25 settle monies in a Trust?
26 A. No.
27 115 Q. Or were you ever the beneficiary of an overseas
28 Trust that was set up on your behalf?
29 A. No.
30
1 116 Q. Either in Cayman or the Channel Islands?
2 A. No. I think when you read through my thing, I think
3 I can answer honestly -- I hope I have been as
4 honest as I can be, probably too honest. I think
5 the only thing is under Item 4 there and I think all
6 of these things, where I came into the ambit of
7 Ansbacher Cayman, seems to have been on the loan for
8 the house, and I think everything that says
9 commercial, you have all the documents and all the
10 ledger statements there from Guinness & Mahon. The
11 one thing we don't have from Guinness & Mahon, and
12 we have been trying for a long time now to get
13 documentation, is the opening of those two
14 particular accounts, which are the 60 and the 30.
15 117 Q. That opening was upon the transfer of the monies
16 from the Isle of Man?
17 A. Yes. That has always been -- I am sorry to cut
18 across you now, Ms. Mackey. In the folk memory of
19 my wife and I, we always felt that the security
20 comfort was money that had come from the Isle of
21 Man.
22 118 Q. When that money came from the Isle of Man and when
23 the two accounts were opened, were you aware at that
24 time the two accounts were opened?
25 A. If I was, I have no memory of it. That is the
26 truth. Looking back on all of this, when I am
27 looking at it in the documentation here, it may well
28 be that we received all of this in 2 Rock Road,
29 Blackrock, and transmitted it on to our accountants,
31
1 but we simply did not -- our financial affairs were
2 managed basically by our accountants.
3 119 Q. What is puzzling me is this; that Guinness & Mahon
4 had advanced you £90,000 and what was to be a
5 comfort to them was that an equivalent sum would be
6 lodged with them?
7 A. But I was paying interest on the equivalent sum, I
8 suppose. I was paying interest on what I had
9 borrowed from them.
10 120 Q. Yes, but in fact an equivalent sum does not appear
11 to have been lodged with them. What was lodged with
12 Guinness & Mahon was £60,000. The other £30,000 was
13 lodged, in fact, with Ansbacher?
14 A. Well, I never had any dealings with anybody other
15 than Guinness & Mahon in Dublin. As I say, we never
16 dealt with any individual who said, "I am Ansbacher
17 Cayman," or whatever. Incidentally, I did have very
18 considerable financial dealings with Ansbacher Bank,
19 but that came later. But, that, I am assured, is
20 not the same bank.
21 121 Q. No, it is not.
22 A. That is Henry Ansbacher. That came in the 90's.
23 No, I did not deal with anybody who identified
24 themselves as being Ansbacher.
25 122 Q. I won't ask any more questions, Mr. Neligan. Judge
26 Costello will continue now. Thank you very much.
27 A. Thank you.
28
29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. NELIGAN BY MS. MACKEY
32
1 MR. NELIGAN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE
2 COSTELLO
4 123 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I just want to see if I
5 understand the purport of
6 your evidence, Mr. Neligan. When you borrowed the
7 £90,000 it was for the purchase of your house, to
8 help finance the purchase of the house?
9 A. Yes, your Honour.
10 124 Q. Now, you had considerable borrowings at the time, in
11 addition to the £90,000?
12 A. Yes.
13 125 Q. It was suggested by the bank that there should be
14 these deposits to equal the £90,000; is that
15 correct?
16 A. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it is correct.
17 Both Mr. Rowan and Ms. Mackey asked me could I
18 identify the person who made that suggestion and I
19 cannot.
20 126 Q. No, we needn't go into that. You had this money in
21 the Isle of Man and it was transferred, the £90,000
22 was transferred to Dublin?
23 A. I believe so, your Honour. As I say, we do not
24 exactly have the documentation relating to the
25 opening of those, but that is my memory of it.
26 127 Q. I do not want to go into any great detail about the
27 money in the Isle of Man, but, as I understand it,
28 when the tax amnesty was established in 1992, the
29 fact that you hadn't paid tax on funds that were in
33
1 the Isle of Man was part of the accounts that you
2 gave into the Revenue then?
3 A. Yes, your Honour. I would also point out, and I am
4 sure this is obviously not the Tribunal to do it,
5 but that not all of the money in the Isle of Man, in
6 fact, was money that had not been declared to the
7 Revenue. There had been Building Society accounts
9 128 Q. Fair enough. Well, then, you were the owner of
10 deposits in Guinness & Mahon, £90,000, which was to
11 be used as a comfort, you thought, for the loans
12 that were outstanding?
13 A. Yes, your Honour, but that was not my word.
14 129 Q. That was their word?
15 A. Yes .
16 130 Q. Arrangements were then made as to the use to be put
17 of the money that was on deposit, is that right,
18 gilts were to be purchased by it?
19 A. Yes, and I think there is documentation about that
20 in what we have given you there.
21 131 Q. Did you know about that?
22 A. I presume I must have.
23 132 Q. You must have known then, Mr. Neligan, the amount
24 that was being purchased in gilts?
25 A. I would presume so, your Honour. This may sound
26 very trite, but it is true. What would happen,
27 basically, is that somebody would come to us and
28 say, "Listen, we are doing this, this is for your
29 benefit, sign this," and we would have clearly
34
1 signed it.
2 133 Q. When you say "somebody", do you mean your
3 accountant?
4 A. The account, probably, yes. In my whole existence,
5 I was only in the building of Guinness & Mahon once
6 in my life.
7 134 Q. It looks as if it was the main person transacting
8 this arrangement with Guinness & Mahon was your
9 accountant?
10 A. Yes, he transacted all my business.
11 135 Q. All your business?
12 A. Yes .
13 136 Q. Well, then, you knew then that there was £60,000 of
14 the money that was on deposit going to buy gilts and
15 that was going to help pay the interest on the loan.
16 What did you think was happening to the other
17 £30,000?
18 A. When you say that I knew that the £60,000 -- as you
19 said now and as I look at the documentation, I know
20 it now, but I am not clearly -- if I had not had all
21 these documents recovered from the bank, I would
22 genuinely not have had he faintest idea, and I
23 probably would have told you a completely different
24 story, because I had the very simple impression that
25 we had borrowed this money and that the security for
26 it was money that had come in from the Isle of Man,
27 and I had no idea or had no recollection or if I was
28 told I simply did not understand that part of it,
29 that it had been split in two. I still don't

1 understand the reason for that.
2 137 Q. Yes, we may be able to find that out later, but what
3 I am concerned about now is this; that you must have
4 known then that the money on deposit was earning
5 interest. Were you aware whether tax was being paid
6 on the interest that was being earned?
7 A. As I said to Mr. Rowan, I, in fact, was very
8 dissatisfied with the performance of the whole
9 thing.
10 138 Q. No, no, if you wouldn't mind answering the question,
11 Mr. Neligan?
12 A. I would have assumed, sir, that tax was --
13 certainly, in the reference there, there is
14 reference to DIRT tax when it was being paid.
15 139 Q. Did you know whether tax was being paid on the
16 interest that presumably was being earned on the
17 deposit?
18 A. I would presume not, sir.
19 140 Q. You presume not?
20 A. I presume not, but I do not have certain knowledge.
21 141 Q. It was because of your unease or dissatisfaction
22 that you left the accountants?
23 A. Yes .
24 142 Q. Was this, Mr. Neligan, because you presumed that tax
25 had not been paid and that this was an
26 unsatisfactory situation and you wished to
27 regularise it?
28 A. Partly that, sir. I wish I could put a head on
29 myself and say that. I think it was more a feeling
36
1 of lack of rapport and a feeling that I wasn't
2 getting information. For example, when I wanted to
3 know how exactly the remaining money that I had in
4 the Isle of Man was doing, I used to get little
5 slips of paper rather than ...(INTERJECTION).
6 143 Q. Then it wasn't because of your feeling that it was
7 unwise to retain this position of being liable for
8 tax, it was because of dissatisfaction with your
9 accountants ?
10 A. Yes, there were multiple factors.
11 144 Q. Multiple factors?
12 A. Multiple factors, yes.
13 145 Q. It was when you went to your new accountant,
14 Mr. Woods, that he then advised you that you should
15 avail of the amnesty?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 146 Q. You availed of the amnesty in relation to the
18 interest, the tax on the interest on the deposits
19 and whatever tax liability might have remained in
20 relation to the Isle of Man?
21 A. Yes, your Honour.
22 147 Q. Both of those?
23 A. Everything.
24 148 Q. Everything?
25 A. Yes, everything that went through Guinness & Mahon,
26 the deposits, the interest earned by them and any
27 residual monies that still remained in the Isle of
28 Man.
29 149 Q. Mr. Neligan, I am just wondering why you did not
37
1 tell us in this statement that you handed in this
2 morning that you had availed of the amnesty and that
3 you had come to the view that you hadn't paid tax
4 and that you should have paid it? Why was that
5 omitted from the statement?
6 A. Mr. Lavery has said it is because we were not asked.
7 150 Q. Did you not think it was relevant for our inquiry?
8 A. I thought that you wished to ascertain, sir, exactly
9 what had happened. The fact that I subsequently
10 availed of the amnesty, I didn't know whether it
11 would be in your remit or not.
12 151 Q. Very well. Well, I think that is all. Mr. Neligan,
13 I don't think there is anything further we need to
14 ask you today, but obviously we are going to have to
15 consider these documents?
16 A. Yes .
17 152 Q. We would like formally to go through the matters
18 with your wife tomorrow, since they have been raised
19 today?
20 A. Yes. As I said to you, your Honour, my wife and I
21 shared accounts and everything. She would have done
22 more of the financial ...(INTERJECTION).
23 153 Q. We may be able to get further information tomorrow.
24 In fact, there was another matter I meant to ask you
25 about. If we wanted to contact your accountants,
26 your former accountants, is it Mr. Crann or
27 Mr. Lennon which ...(INTERJECTION).
28 A. Mr. Crann, I think, is the senior partner, but he
29 has been very ill. I must tell you that in the
38
1 course of this, when this began to evolve, I,
2 myself, contacted Crann & Lennon and said, "What is
3 your memory of all of this?" It was Mr. Lennon I
4 spoke to. He said he had very little memory of it.
5 I asked him did he have records and could I have any
6 records from the time and he said, no, he didn't
7 have any records anymore, because I had left them in
8 1992 and they simply did not keep my records beyond,
9 I think, 1998 or 1999.
10 MS. MACKEY: Would they have passed
11 your records on to
12 Mr. Woods?
13 A. Anything that they had relating to that time, we
14 asked them to pass everything to Mr. Woods, and
15 certainly, clearly, from the point of view of the
16 tax amnesty, that was done. But, how detailed
17 whatever they gave Mr. Woods was, I do not know.
18 154 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We can contact Mr. Woods
19 then?
20 A. Yes, Mr. Woods is probably more relevant.
21 155 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neligan. Thank you, Mr. Lavery.
22 A. Thank you, your Honour.
23
24 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. NELIGAN BY MR. JUSTICE
25 COSTELLO
26
27 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED
28
29
39
Appendix XV (96) (1) (b)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF DR. PATRICIA NELIGAN
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 11TH FEBRUARY 2000 1999
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: DR. PATRICIA NELIGAN
Represented by John Lavery
Lavery Kirby & Co
Main Street
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTIONS
DR. P. NELIGAN MS. MACKEY 1-76

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON FRIDAY,
2 11TH FEBRUARY 2 000
4 DR. PATRICIA NELIGAN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
5 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY
7 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Dr. Neligan, as you know,
8 what we are anxious to
9 clarify here is the question of monies coming from
10 an account in your name and going into an account in
11 the name of Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust, which is
12 also known as Ansbacher?
13 A. Yes.
14 2 Q. As you know, we were speaking to your husband
15 yesterday and it appeared from the evidence given by
16 your husband that in some way this Ansbacher account
17 and the sum of money in it is connected with a loan
18 which you and your husband had from Guinness & Mahon
19 in order to purchase a property in Kerry?
20 A. Yes.
21 3 Q. What I really want to try and clarify today is what
22 exactly that connection is, if we can, and what
23 exactly the money is that is in Guinness & Mahon
24 Cayman Trust Limited in the name of you and your
25 husband.
26 A. Yes.
27 4 Q. We can start off, I think, with your account number
28 10285008. Ms. Cummins will give you a copy of that
29 statement, statement No. 1 of that account, and
4
1 which we will call Exhibit No. 1. This is a
2 statement, as you can see there, dated 11th December
3 1986, from Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. Yes.
5 5 Q. Is that a statement of your account?
6 A. The 11th December 1986?
7 6 Q. At the top there.
8 A. Lodged £60,000 and £30,000. Yes, that was to buy
9 the house; is that right?
10 7 Q. I am just asking you first, can you confirm this is
11 your account?
12 A. Yes.
13 8 Q. Now, we have here a number of transactions. The
14 account begins with a nil balance?
15 A. Yes.
16 9 Q. Is this a new account then that was opened at that
17 time?
18 A. I presume so, yes.
19 10 Q. You do not know?
20 A. I do not know. It must have been, yes.
21 11 Q. It is possible that it was an account already opened
22 that had a nil balance in it. I was just wondering?
23 A. I do not know that.
24 12 Q. On 23rd September, then, we have the first
25 transaction across this account, which is --
26 actually, no, sorry, 9th September is the first
27 transaction, which is a credit of £60,000?
28 A. Yes.
29 13 Q. I think the date is not very clear there.
5
1 A. It is not. As I see it here, is it the 23rd -- oh,
2 11th September, £60,000, is a debit, sorry.
3 14 Q. No, the 9th, which is very bad here, up at the top,
4 is the credit, and then on the 23rd you have a
5 debit?
6 A. Right, yes, okay. Sorry, yes, I am with you now.
7 15 Q. This is a credit lodged to your account. Now, can
8 you remember what that credit represents or what
9 that sum of money represents and where it came from?
10 A. Where it came from, to best of my knowledge, was an
11 account we had in the Isle of Man.
12 16 Q. This £60,000 came from the Isle of Man?
13 A. Yes, to buy the house. Can I just put something,
14 rather than get myself totally confused here?
15 17 Q. Certainly.
16 A. We got a loan of £90,000 from Guinness & Mahon to
17 buy this house. It was intimated to us in some way
18 that they would need some money -- I gather it was
19 comfort money, or something, was the word used -- to
20 balance this, and that we would be expected to do
21 this if we had some extra money somewhere, which we
22 did, we had this money in the Isle of Man. We
23 arranged then that £90,000 would come in in some way
24 from the Isle of Man to balance this. That is why I
25 am a bit confused in my head as to which
27 18 Q. Of course. Can I just make it clear here, we are
28 not concerned with the Isle of Man money at all.
29 That is not the concern of this Inspectorate.
6
1 A. Yes. This actually is the money coming as the loan
2 money from Guinness & Mahon; is that correct?
3 Sorry, I am asking you questions. This is money
4 that Guinness & Mahon were giving us as a loan.
5 19 Q. Yes, this money in your account actually came from
6 Guinness & Mahon rather than from ...
7 A. Oh, right.
8 20 Q. No, I am asking you.
9 A. Yes, it did.
10 21 Q. You do not know; is that it? Well, perhaps we could
11 just leave that for a moment and go on to something
12 else. As you said, you got a loan from Guinness &
13 Mahon to buy this house in Kerry?
14 A. Yes .
15 22 Q. The house cost what?
16 A. £90,000.
17 23 Q. Now, we have here a facility letter from Guinness
18 & Mahon in relation to that loan, which Ms. Cummins
19 will pass to you and which we will call Exhibit
20 No. 2. That is dated 12th September 1986.
21 A. Yes .
22 24 Q. That relates to a facility of £60,000?
23 A. Yes, right.
24 25 Q. The loan that you obtained from Guinness & Mahon was
25 a loan for £60,000 initially; is that correct?
26 A. Plus there is was another £30,000 came from Guinness
27 & Mahon.
28 26 Q. That is right, yes, there was, and we have -- while
29 we have not got a facility letter in respect of

1 that, we have the documents from the Credit
2 Application Committee showing that the loan was
3 increased ...(INTERJECTION).
4 A. Yes, to £30,000.
5 27 Q. ... some time later to ...(INTERJECTION).
6 A. This was explained to me, I think, that they were
7 able to produce £60,000 with ease and then there was
8 some other way that they produced the other £30,000.
9 I don't know how, but ...(INTERJECTION).
10 28 Q. The bank itself?
11 A. The bank itself did this.
12 29 Q. I see. Now, at the same time then money came from
13 another account of yours in the Isle of Man in order
14 to provide comfort, as Guinness & Mahon said to you,
15 for this.
16 A. Exactly, yes.
17 30 Q. What happened to that money? Was that money lodged
18 into your account?
19 A. This was obviously brought in from the Isle of Man
20 and the question then was how Guinness & Mahon would
21 use it as -- "backing" seems to be a terrible word,
22 I am afraid to use it now -- but as backing for this
23 loan. It was decided that it seems that £60,000 of
24 it would go into a Gilt.
25 31 Q. This is £60,000 of the Isle of Man money?
26 A. Yes, would go into a Gilt, and £30,000 would go
27 elsewhere.
28 32 Q. Who decided this?
29 A. I cannot say who decided this. It was either the

1 accountants or the bank. We just brought in the
2 money and we were doing what we were told with it.
3 33 Q. You brought it to where?
4 A. Oh, I didn't bring it in personally, the accountants
5 brought it in.
6 34 Q. They brought it into the bank?
7 A. Yes.
8 35 Q. It was decided that £30,000 would go elsewhere?
9 A. Well, I did not decide that. I did not really
10 basically know what was going on. I actually
11 thought that the money was going to stay in the Isle
12 of Man, it would be used there as backing against
13 the loan. If the loan collapsed, that they would
14 take that money. I was quite terribly simplistic in
15 those days and I actually thought -- however, it was
16 brought in, given to the bank in some form or other,
17 and this was the decision of what to do with it.
18 This was enabled by our accountants to the bank.
19 36 Q. When did you learn of this decision?
20 A. Well, I knew that this money was going to be their
21 comfort for this loan and it sort of went from
22 there. There was no sort of flash of light saying
23 this is what is going to happen here. It just sort
24 of ...(INTERJECTION).
25 37 Q. But you were aware that £60,000 in invested in a
26 Gilt. That was through Mars Nominees, I think; is
27 that not right?
28 A. Yes.
29 38 Q. And held in the name of Mars Nominees?
9
1 A. Yes. In fact, these are all -- it had actually gone
2 over my head, obviously. Probably we had signed it,
3 but people put things to us to sign through our
4 accountants and this was money we were not
5 completely happy with anyway, so we signed and it
6 was through the bank and we expected that everything
7 would be done in normal banking ways.
8 39 Q. You were aware at that time that £60,000 was gone
9 into a Gilt?
10 A. Yes .
11 40 Q. Where did you think the other £30,000 was?
12 A. I thought it was being invested in some way in the
13 bank or through the bank.
14 41 Q. But you did not know how?
15 A. I had no idea, now. I had absolutely no idea. So
16 much so that -- I mean, when we heard about
17 Ansbacher and Guinness & Mahon we both laughed and
18 said I wonder what poor fools are stuck in this. It
19 went from there.
20 42 Q. The loan from the bank that came also in two stages,
21 because as you said the £60,000 seemed to be easy
22 enough and then there was a further £30,000
23 . . . (INTERJECTION) .
24 A. I am sorry, that is why I was confused at the
25 beginning, because it seems that they broke down in
26 both ways, both loans broke down in the same way,
27 but coincidentally.
28 43 Q. That money then apparently was lodged to this
29 account of yours here, that we are looking at?
10
1 A. The £30,000?
2 44 Q. The loan money.
3 A. Oh, sorry, the first loan?
4 45 Q. The money from the bank.
5 A. The money we got a loan from the bank was given to
6 the woman we bought the house from.
7 46 Q. Straight to her?
8 A. Yes.
9 47 Q. If I could just pass you now an internal memorandum
10 from the bank again, dated 17th September 1986, from
11 Pat O'Dwyer to Investments Department, and this is
12 Exhibit 3.
13 A. Thank you.
14 48 Q. Can you see there, this is marked "Loan File" and it
15 is headed "Mrs. Patricia Neligan - Call D/A £60,000,
16 No. 10285008", which seems to be the account we were
17 looking at.
18 A. Yes.
19 49 Q.
"It was agreed that the above sum
20 should be withdrawn to pay for a Gilt
purchased by Peter Keane in the name of
21 Mars Nominees Limited. Would you
please note and acknowledge that the
22 Gilt purchased is to be held at all
times to the order of Loans
23 Department."
24
25 That is the £60,000 ...(INTERJECTION).
26 A. That is the Gilt one, yes.
27 50 Q. ... that came from the Isle of Man?
28 A. Yes.
29 51 Q. The reason for the movement in your account at that
11
1 stage was £60,000 came over from the Isle of Man,
2 was lodged there and went out to buy this Gilt?
3 A. That seems to be correct.
4 52 Q. Then, in the case of the £30,000 the amount that
5 went ultimately into Ansbacher, this arrived
6 separately to your account from the Isle of Man; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes .
9 53 Q. It seems to have been lodged -- if you look back at
10 your statement, there the first document I gave you,
11 Exhibit 1?
12 A. Yes, it was lodged separately.
13 54 Q. It was lodged later?
14 A. Yes .
15 55 Q. It was lodged on 6th October?
16 A. Yes .
17 56 Q. There it stayed until it was drawn on 20th November?
18 A. Right.
19 57 Q. With some interest?
20 A. Yes .
21 58 Q. Now, it is that sum with the interest attached that
22 we see appearing in the Guinness & Mahon Cayman
23 Trust statement. (SAME HANDED TO DR.
24 NELIGAN)Exhibit 4.
25 A. Thank you.
26 59 Q. That is the statement that we showed your husband
27 yesterday and it is the statement that in fact he
28 sent to us when we first wrote to him. Have you
29 ever seen a statement like that before?

1 A. Now, I am under oath and I cannot swear that I
2 didn't, but I don't remember. I know statements
3 came in from Guinness & Mahon. I know I was
4 careless; I would look at the top and say "Oh,
5 yeah", put it in the elastic band under Guinness &
6 Mahon and send it up to the accountants. I think I
7 would have noticed if it had Guinness & Mahon. It
8 is just at the bottom "Guinness & Mahon Cayman". I
9 actually don't know if that would have made any
10 impression on. This was money I was not happy
11 about, it had suddenly gone into this thing and it
12 wouldn't really have concerned me -- well, had they
13 arrived. They may or may not have arrived, I don't
14 know. Between all the loans, the loans for the
15 house, the loans for the rooms, the loans to the
16 banks, I don't know how many statements came into
17 our house. I had plastic bags in bands and I just
18 filed it into the plastic bag for Guinness & Mahon.
19 60 Q. Are you able to confirm now that the money in this
20 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust is in fact the money
21 that came over to your account from the it Isle of
22 Man, moved out of your account again and into this
24 A. It didn't come from anywhere else.
25 61 Q. Your husband was explaining to us yesterday that
26 money coming from the Isle of Man and money going
27 into this account would have represented some of his
28 fees. Would it represent any of your fees?
29 A. No. I have seven children, Ms. Mackey, I work very
13
1 much part-time and I sometimes don't get paid for
2 what I work.
3 62 Q. This was a joint account?
4 A. This was a joint account.
5 63 Q. Nevertheless, I didn't actually represent funds
6 contributed by yourself?
7 A. No. Now, I would have is a small salary. It would
8 only be £5,000, £6,000 or £7,000 a year. I
9 frittered it away on shoes for the children and the
10 odd thing like that. "Frittering" is a terrible
11 word to use again for £6,000 or £7,000, but in the
12 context of what we did, what Maurice earned, it was
13 not ...(INTERJECTION).
14 64 Q. It wasn't significant?
15 A. Yes .
16 65 Q. Did you personally have any dealings with Guinness &
17 Mahon Bank?
18 A. Not that I know of. Any dealings I had with
19 Guinness & Mahon Bank were done through out
20 accountants.
21 66 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Desmond Traynor?
22 A. I have spoken with John about this. I cannot
23 remember meeting Desmond Traynor. I have know
24 knowledge of that. If I wasn't under oath, I would
25 say 'no', but what I am afraid of is that somehow
26 something is going to turn up, a photograph of me
27 and Desmond Traynor.
28 67 Q. You don't remember ...(INTERJECTION).
29 A. I do not remember ever meeting Des Traynor or having

1 any dealings with Des Traynor.
2 68 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Padraig Collery of Guinness &
3 Mahon?
4 A. Not that I can remember. We did go into the bank --
5 at least I did. Maurice very often wasn't available
6 and I wandered in, like 'Alice in Wonderland', and
7 signed whatever was there, again for maybe the loans
8 for the house or the deeds of the house and maybe
9 brought in something for Maurice to sign or both of
10 us and sent them back in the post. I think I was at
11 the most in the bank on two occasions for formal
12 things like that. I can actually only remember one.
13 69 Q. Can we just pass you another document which is the
14 statement closing this account of Guinness & Mahon
15 Cayman Trust, which by that time, in 1989, was
16 called Ansbacher Limited, but as you will see it is
17 the same account, simply entitled now "Ansbacher
18 Limited/College Re MP External Call Deposit
19 Account", and the number of the account is slightly
20 different. When it was called Guinness & Mahon
21 Cayman Trust it was No. 06040233 and now it is
22 16040233, Exhibit 5?
23 A. I see that, yes.
24 70 Q. In fact, it is the same account and the same amount
25 with the interest added?
26 A. Yes.
27 71 Q. You will see there that on 18th April 1989 the
28 balance standing in the account was withdrawn?
29 A. Yes.
15
1 72 Q. Leaving a nil balance?
2 A. Yes.
3 73 Q. I just must ask you now, have you ever since that
4 date made use of the Ansbacher account?
5 A. Absolutely no. Again, not to the best of my
6 knowledge. I do not know what bombshell might be
7 dropped on me, but no.
8 74 Q. Well, I am not going to drop any bombshells?
9 A. Yes.
10 75 Q. As far as you know ...(INTERJECTION).
11 A. As far as I know, I did not.
12 76 Q. I don't think I need to ask you any further
13 questions.
14 A. Yes.
15
16 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. NELIGAN BY MS. MACKEY
17
18
19 DR. NELIGAN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE
20 COSTELLO
21
22 77 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a couple of
23 questions, Dr. Neligan.
24 This seems to have been handled almost completely by
25 your accountants; is that right?
26 A. Yes. I hate doing this, but that is the truth.
27 78 Q. No, no, that is perfectly all right, I just want to
28 know what the facts are?
29 A. Yes.
16
1 79 Q. It was handled by your accountants?
2 A. Yes .
3 80 Q. Did you actually talk to the accountants yourself?
4 A. Yes .
5 81 Q. Who were you talking to?
6 A. The two accountants we dealt with were Crann &
7 Lennon. Crann was the principal partner and Lennon
8 was his sort of junior. Maybe that is the wrong
9 word, but he seemed to do an awful lot of the work
10 and he was quite often out in our house. Mostly it
11 was through Mr. Lennon.
12 82 Q. Did he give you any details at all of what was going
13 to be done? Did he tell you what was being
14 proposed?
15 A. No. I mean, we knew that the money was going
16 somewhere to balance this, this other money that we
17 had lent. It did not particularly brother us, in
18 the sense that we felt so long as it was safe and we
19 would get it back at the end or whenever this house
20 loan was paid off. We didn't really care too much
21 what they did with it. That sounds ridiculous now,
22 but that is the way it was. We were dealing with
23 Guinness & Mahon, which is a bank, and I thought
24 banks were great.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well,
26 Dr. Neligan, that is all.
27 Thank you for coming. We will require you and your
28 husband to sign the transcript of your evidence, but
29 that will be arranged through your solicitor.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
18
/V^
JocsO.
Appendix XV (96) (X) (c)
** %
t m \
GUINNESS+MAHON LTD GfM
17 CoHaga Grwn Dublin 2 P.O. Box 58A Tal: 7&S44 <30Unas) BANKERS
Our Ref: PO*D/SC . I2th September, 1966.
Or. Maurice & Dr. Patricia Neligan,

Ben Inagh,
2, Rock Road;
Blackrock,
CO. DUBLIN
Dear Sir & Madam,

Following recent discussions, we have pleasure in confirming that we
are prepared -to-plaoe-at- youp- diapoaal~a facility subject to the following
terms and conditions- vJ^.-j • . •
Borrowers: Dr. Maurice % Dr. Patricia Neligan.
Amount: £60nra6»«a-{Slxty Thousand Pounds) - Irish £.
Purpose: The funds are being placed at your disposal
to assist you In the purchase of a property
in Dooks, Ca Kerry.
Term: In accordance with normal banking practice
ali funds taken up are repayable on demand
but In any case not later than 30th September,
1989. ..
We shall however review your account on an
annual basis.
Interest: We propose charging interest on the loan at
v %j( 1U% p.fl. fixed. Interest will be debited
u ^ jQ i by
uy us
ua to
tu your
your account
account on
on the
toe 30th
dum September,
f ^ if /. p-'*™ annually.
31st December, 31st apply
We shall Marchtoand
you30th June
immediately
. . , after the aforementioned dates for payment of
A .( ul'.c interest due.
Security: As security for your loan we shall require that you
lodge with us by way of Equitable Mortgage the
Title Deeds of the property being purchased, by
you.
T«tav«m>: Mwi.DuWIn. T«l«: «a«7. *««: 73CW1 MukImwiM OlncMni J.H. OiHibum IQufciwnl. 1C. LawJw.. HA Mwti IMlWI. »•*•
OuMIn Oaomnnitotinwna. » .,- —, — — i
Insurance: It Is a condition of the loan that adequate fire insurace
cover in respect of the property being purchased is
taken out for no less than the current market value,
the Bank's interest is to be noted on the relevant
policy document.
We enclose herewith a copy of this facility letter for signature by you
Jointly and return thereby confirming your acceptance of. the loa» on the terms
mentioned. •
We also enclose a signature card-for completion and return.
Yours faithfully,
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.
Pat O'Dwyer,
Banking Manager.
f
C. A. Waite,
Assistant Banking Manager.
Appendix XV (96) (1) (d)
n
MEMORANDUM
t f
To: Investments Department. 17th September, 1988,
* > *
From: Pat O'Dwyer.
da'Nelliran
Mra. Patrida J
Nai<ran -- Call D/A £60,000
Call DA No. 10285008
It was agreed that the above sum should be withdrawn to pay for
a Gilt purchased by Peter Keaae In the name of Mars Nominees Limited.
Wouktfyou please note and acknowledge that the Gilt purchased is to be held
at alt1 times to the order of Loans Department.
PO'D/SC
Appendix XV (96) (1) (e)
G+M
GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
MTOrni • MTMSIA *.rtlC»«. nCrtwdnMOMia —T>li
MM STATiMCNT HQ.
'*6f HC.
a—im I'M* l lWff&O*
LEDGER 11WCS*
BK^S rilW-'.T CALL O/A
o«« wnuM
•bACABCt M0UGHT'F0*MA«0
msi'o ck. l a i t u n mii C H w c c o a.oa
•».«» CROSS '
NEW OCfUMS 0/» *T f.i!
IMcrcm
mEPK TRF TO CtflTJU. A/C to,000.00
OsQCTM lOOCEO user** 40.000.00 0.00
t ? « a v » « cr. i n T c n s r l u r e &.aacm 30.000.00 30,000.00
.12.2} cn.au OTXTIt 30t0aa.w
20NCVB6 o***ta UjQ.jtrwv-
Xtiitiicr. TAX
IWTffMT Ul.lt
IKUOEST EAMU0 l i SUBJECT TO Mttttrio* T « *T i s . 0 0 «

Appendix XV (96) (1) (!)
I G+M
uvMnnnnHit PAI«MM«lna)im
eUIWCM JIAHON CAyylAA TRUST / COLLEGE
statchckt ha. .
IRISH POIMOS
LEDGER 0*(MO*U MCC NO. I
cxtcrnal CALL D/A
2M0Mt
•BALANCE MOUCHT HJRHMO ,

~ MTMST RATE UUNCEDI
W ovtmcss NAHM CATHAj
Appendix XV (96) (1) (g)
w m w UHDtD / a m w
c/o pie
'All CUMi D/A
lNPN|hfc fimri 37*133.1*

11 HU It To lllUXIt na.li
M,4U.N
II Aft II 17i.l(
Lavery Kirby
Gilmartin
solicitors
our ref IL/RC your ref
Office of the Inspectors

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
3 rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
County Dublin 10th December 2001.
Re: Mr. and Mrs. Maurice Neligan
Dear Sirs,
We refer to previous correspondence and in particular your preliminary conclusion

that Mr. Neligan was a client of Ansbacher. We strongly urge that neither the law nor
the evidence supports such a conclusion and the purpose of this letter is to make a
submission to that effect to you and to invite you to draw the final conclusion that
neither Mr. nor Mrs. Neligan were a client of Ansbacher.
The facts do not seem to be in dispute. In 1986, Mr. Neligan entered into a
transaction with Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited ("Guinness & Mahon")
whereby he borrowed money from Guinness & Mahon while at the same time placing
a deposit of £90,000 with Guinness & Mahon, part of which was used to buy gilts for
Mr. Neligan which were held in a Guinness & Mahon nominee account. There was
nothing remarkable or improper in any way about this transaction.
At no time did Mr. Neligan know of or have any dealings with Mr. Des Traynor or
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
The £90,000 was put on deposit with Guinness & Mahon in an account in the name of
Mrs. Neligan. Entirely unknown to her and her husband, it appears that on the 20th
November 1986, just over £30,000 of this deposit was transferred to an account with
Guinness & Mahon which had the name "Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust/College
MP". Neither Mr. nor Mrs. Neligan know why this was done and it was not done
with their knowledge or consent. So far as Mr. and Mrs. Neligan were concerned, at
all material times their funds were on deposit in Mrs. Neligan's name in an account
with Guinness & Mahon. The Neligans' account with Guinness & Mahon was closed
in 1989. They were not to be advised of this as your investigations have shown.
In support of their preliminary conclusion that Mr. Neligan was a client of Ansbacher,
the Inspectors state: (Continued Overleaf)
John L. Lavery B.C.L.

1 Main Street
Ray Gilmartin Blackrock
James Flynn Co. Dublin
Tel: 2888333
Laura McGinley Fax. 2831729
incorporating e-mail: info@laverykirby.ie
Pauline Burke Lavery & Co. V.A.T. No. 9535253R
"The Neligans enjoyed ihe use of the funds on deposit by means of a
service provided, hv Ansbacher whereby they were able to withdraw
funds in Ireland. "
First, it should be noted that the funds were on deposit in the name of Mrs. Neligan
and therefore any conclusion drawn should relate only to Mrs. Neligan.
Secondly, it is not correct, with respect, to say that Mr. or Mrs. Neligan (as the case
may be) enjoyed the use of this money "by means of a service provided by
Ansbacher. " The Neligans did not enjoy this money by means of any service
provided by Ansbacher. They "enjoyed" it in the sense of being able to withdraw the
money on deposit as they wished because they had placed the money on deposit with
Guinness & Mahon and with nobody else. The only service they received was a
service from Guinness & Mahon in the nature of an ordinary call deposit account.
The Inspectors state that it was by means of the service provided by Ansbacher that
the Neligans "were able to withdraw finds in Ireland." Again, with respect, it was
not through any service provided by Ansbacher that the Neligans were able to
withdraw their money. They were able to withdraw it because they had a contractual
entitlement to do so vis-a-vis Guinness & Mahon having placed the money on deposit
with Guinness & Mahon. They neither requested nor received any service from
Ansbacher.
Conversely, it is instructive to ask the rhetorical question as to what was the service
provided by Ansbacher to the Neligans? The fact that, unknown to the Neligans, their
money was placed on deposit in the name of a third party, is hardly a service provided
by that third party to the Neligans. The Neligans derived no benefit from having the
money in an account in the name of a third party, did not request that the money be
held in this fashion and were unaware of the existence or identity of the third party.
Although the Neligans have no knowledge of this matter, we assume, with the benefit
of hindsight, that putting the money on deposit in the name of "Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust/College MP" was done in some way at the behest of Mr. Des Traynor.
Relying on the McCracken Report, one may speculate that Mr. Traynor was seeking
to abrogate as much money as he could in whatever accounts he was controlling in the
name of Ansbacher with Guinness & Mahon, presumably because there was a benefit
to Mr. Traynor and/or Ansbacher in increasing his overall deposit base with Guinness
& Mahon and thereby getting a better rate of interest (see the report of the McCracken
Tribunal, pages 37-38). We emphasise again that none of this was known to the
Neligans. They were not advised as can be seen from all the bank documents. But
assuming that something like this represents the rationale for what was done, it would
seem that the Neligans or their money were pressed into service for the benefit of Mr.
Traynor/Ansbacher rather than the other way around.
(Continued Overleaf)
2
In other words, while no service was provided by Ansbacher to the Neligans, it seems
as if the Neligans were, without their knowledge, put in a position of providing some
benefit to Ansbacher.
In Appendix D in relation to the Inspectors' powers and procedures furnished to Mr.

Neligan under copy of a letter of the 22 nd December 1999, the Inspectors describe
four services apparently offered by Ansbacher to Irish residents in relation to deposits
maintained by Irish residents with Ansbacher. The first of these services (which
seems to be the only one which could conceivably be relevant to the Neligans)
describes a situation where an Irish resident client who deposited money with
Ansbacher "in the Cayman Islands or into an account maintained by the company
[Ansbacher] in its name in another financial institution could request [Ansbacher] to
withdraw funds from a deposit it kept in its own name in Guinness & Mahon (Ireland)
Limited and pay him/her either by cash or by cheque (or to his/her order) the
requested sum. The limit of this facility was the sum deposited by the client with the
company ... It appears to have been an important feature of this service that the
name of the client would not appear in any of the records of Guinness & Mahon
(Ireland) Limited ... "
Neither of the Neligans deposited any money with Ansbacher. The only deposit Mrs.
Neligan made was with Guinness & Mahon.
The Neligans had no facility to withdraw funds from an account maintained by

Ansbacher with Guinness & Mahon because they had no knowledge or contractual
relationship with Ansbacher or with Mr. Traynor and dealt exclusively with Guinness
& Mahon in the ordinary way.
It was not an important feature of the Neligans' banking arrangements that their
names would not appear in the banking records. On the contrary, the deposit account
which Mrs. Neligan had with Guinness & Mahon was clearly in her own name and
likewise, Mr. Neligan's borrowings from Guinness & Mahon were in his name. No
question of secrecy or concealment of names featured in any way in the Neligans'
banking transactions.
We respectfully submit therefore that on the facts of the case, there is no evidence to
suggest that the Neligans or either of them were a client of Ansbacher and that the
evidence is, in fact, coercive in the opposite direction.
There is also the question of what is meant by the expression "client" as used in the
High Court Order. We note in passing that the only source of the obligation to
identify "clients of the company" is the High Court Order itself since there does not
seem to be any such provision in section 8 of the Companies Act 1990 which is
concerned with investigating the affairs of the company and whether "persons
connected with its formation or the management of its affairs" have been guilty of
some form of fraud or misconduct.
The section does not appear to envisage or empower the Inspectors appointed under
the section to identify clients or customers of the company in their report (save and
insofar as the actual identities as distinct from the activities of such clients or
customers may be relevant to properly reporting on the affairs of the company). It is
our submission that it is not necessary to identify any clients or customers of the
company in order to report on its affairs and that insofar as the activities of any
particular client or customer have to be referred to in that context, they can be referred
to by the appropriate letter, number or other symbol.
We appreciate, of course, that the High Court Order (as distinct from section 8) refers
to "clients of the company." It is a matter for the Inspectors to decide how they
should act upon this part of the order having regard to the fact that it appears to be
ultra vires the powers of the court under section 8. For present purposes, we simply
reserve all our rights in relation to our contention that this part of the order is ultra
vires the powers of the court under section 8.
Leaving aside that point, the question remains as to what is meant by the expression
"clients of the company" in the High Court Order. We make two submissions in that
regard.
First, we submit that looking at paragraph (b) of the order as a whole, the reference to
clients of the company is sandwiched between the reference to identifying "all of the
parties who are either officers (including shadow directors) and agents of the
company " and the reference to persons "who otherwise assisted in the carrying out of
the business at the relevant time. "
We respectfully submit that, properly construed, the reference to "clients of the

company" must therefore be construed as meaning clients who were in some way
involved or assisted in the carrying out of the business of the company whatever
formal or informal status those persons may have had. Such a construction appears to
us to follow from a consideration of paragraph (b) as a whole and is also a
construction which brings the order within the ambit of the court's power under
section 8 since section 8 expressly refers to "persons connected with its formation or
the management of its affairs [who] have in connection therewith been guilty of fraud,
misfeasance or other misconduct towards it or towards it members. "
Since it is clear that neither of the Neligans were in any way involved in the setting
up, operation or management of Ansbacher in any shape or form, they obviously
could not come within the reference to "clients of the company" if the construction of
this phrase in the order which we have urged is correct.
Secondly, and in the alternative, since the company in question is a bank, the
reference to clients of the company must mean customers of the bank and the question
arises as to what is meant by a customer of a bank.
It seems to be clear on the authorities that to be a customer of a bank, one must have
some sort of knowing or conscious relationship with a bank which most usually takes
the form of having an account but which might extend to some form of habitual
service provided by the bank even if the person did not have an account with the
bank.
Thus, in Great Western Railway -v- London and County Bank (1900) 2 QB 464, a
country rate collector who was well known to the bank had for several years been in
the habit of taking cheques collected by him to the bank's local branch (where he had
no account) which branch accommodated him by cashing the cheques across the
counter (or, on occasion, crediting the proceeds to the account of one of the local
bodies for which the rate collector acted).
The House of Lords held that he was not a "customer" of the bank, Lord Davey
saying:
"It is true that there is no definition of 'customer' in the Act;' but it

is a well known expression, and I think that there must be some sort
of account - either a deposit, or a current, account, or some similar
relation - to make a man a customer of a banker. "
Ft is clear from the speech of Lord Brampton that the usual sort of bank account is not
a strict precondition defining that a person is a customer:
"It is not necessary to say that the keeping of an ordinary banking

account is essential to constitute a person a "customer" of a bank,
for if it were shown that cheques were habitually lodged with a bank
for presentation on behalf of the person lodging them, and that,
when honoured, the amount was credited and paid out to such
person (whether with or without any profit to the bank for so
presenting them), I would not say that such transactions might not
constitute such a person a "customer" within the meaning of section
82, indeed, I think they would. But as between [the rate collector]
and the bank, the transactions amounted to nothing of the sort. "
If one does not have an account in this sense with the bank, then it would seem that
there must be some element of habitual or frequent commercial or monetary dealings
between the bank and the person if the person is to be regarded as a customer.
The Neligans never opened an account with Ansbacher. Their money was wrongly
and improperly put into the name of a third party (Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust/College MP) whose existence and identity was unknown to the Neligans.
The Bills of Exchange Aet 1882.

No transactions took place between Ansbacher and the Neligans and there were no
frequent, habitual transactions of the sort which would clearly be necessary if the
Neligans were to be regarded as a customer of Ansbacher.
We respectfully submit therefore that both on the facts and the law, there is no basis
for finding that either of the Neligans were a client of Ansbacher.
Finally, and as we know you appreciate, a fundamental concern of our clients is that
to name somebody publicly as a client of Ansbacher is tantamount to a statement that
the person in question was evading tax through the use of an Ansbacher account.
Such a statement would be entirely untrue and unfair in relation to the Neligans. As
Mr. Neligan acknowledged in his evidence to the Inspectors, he did have tax liabilities
(but not connected with Ansbacher) which were fully disclosed in the 1993 amnesty
and by virtue of section 2(5) of the 1993 Act Mr. Neligan is deemed to have satisfied
all his tax liabilities and not to be in arrears of tax. If, despite our submission, you
still conclude that Mr. Neligan was a client of Ansbacher and intend to so report to the
High Court, we would be grateful if you would notify us of this fact before finalising
the form of your report as we would wish to make submissions to you in relation to
the way in which Mr. Neligan might be identified as a client. This is because, in that
event, we intend to apply to the High Court for an order under section 11(4) of the
Companies Act 1990 that the High Court excise Mr. Neligan's name from the report
insofar as the report may be given to any third parties or published in any way. We
wish to ensure that any reference to Mr. Neligan in the Inspectors' report is in such a
way that there will be no particular logistical or administrative difficulties in excising
his name from the report should the court make an order under section 11(4).
If you wish we are quite happy to make these submissions to you personally and you
might afford us the opportunity to do so in the event you still intend proceeding as set
out in your letter of the 24th October
Yours faithfully
L a v e r y Kirby
G i l m a r t i n
solicitors
our ref
JL/RC. F RM C4D1 cvnoTO^M
The Office of the Inspectors

Ansbacher Bank (Cayman) Limited
3 rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
t 1
Co. Dublin. " ' 21st December 2001.
RE: Our client: Neligan
Dear Inspectors,
Thank you for your letter of the 18th December enclosing revised preliminary conclusions in
relation to Mr Maurice Neligan and Dr Patricia Negligan.
We wish to make the following additional comments on the revised preliminary conclusions.
1. It does not seem possible to us for a person to be a client of Ansbacher while at the same
time being unaware of such a client relationship. A client relationship on any definition
(including the definition proffered by the Inspectors) requires some form of consensual
relationship which did not exist in the case of either of the Neligans. Therefore neither of them
should be found to be clients and we request that you alter your preliminary conclusion
accordingly.
2. The factual statement: "The Neligans enjoyed the use of the funds on deposit by means of
a service provided by Ansbacher whereby they are able to withdraw funds in Ireland" is, with
respect factually incorrect. The Neligans did not "enjoy" the use of their own funds by any
service provided by Ansbacher. Dr. Patricia Neligan placed money on deposit with Guiness &
Mahon (Ireland) Limited which account was subsequently closed. Her entitlement to those funds
arose wholly and exclusively because she placed the funds on deposit with Guiness & Mahon
(Ireland) Limited nobody else. She did not enjoy the use of the funds by means of any service
provided to her by Ansbacher.
3. The only connection at all with Ansbacher is the fact that unknown to the Neligans, funds
belonging to Dr. Patricia Neligan were, unknown to her, moved into an account in the name of
Ansbacher. Even on the Inspectors' own reasoning, this was not Mr Maurice Neligan's money
and so there is no basis whatever for concluding that Mr Maurice Neligan was a client of
Ansbacher. (Continued Overleaf)

Main Street
Ray Gilmartin Blackrock
Co
James Flynn - Dublin
Tel: 2888333
, „ _ , Fax: 2831729
Laura McGinley . ^ . .
Incorporating e-mail: info@laverykirby.te
4. I f, contrary to the above submissions, you still conclude that either Dr. Patricia Neligan
or Mr Maurice Neligan were clients of Ansbacher, we request that you amend the latter part of
the conclusion to read "although he [she] was unaware of this". The uncontradicated evidence
before the Inspectors is that neither of the Neligans were aware that the money was moved
without their knowledge into the Ansabacher account. Indeed, in the second paragraph of the
Inspectors' preamble to the preliminary conclusions, the Inspectors so find. There is thus no
warrant for the doubt or ambiguity created by the use of the word "may" and a positive finding
that the Neligans were not aware of the Ansbacher connection is compelled by the uncontradicted
evidence.
5. For the record, we should say that our clients do not accept the definition of a client
enclosed with their letter of the 18th of December which seems extraordinarily wide and beyond
any conventional or commonly understood concept of a client. We would submit to you that
under your finding our client cannot fall within your definition of a client. Our client could not
"directly or indirectly maintain any account which they had no knowledge of'.
As we stated last week, our clients reputation has been severely damaged as a result of the leak,
our client has been unfairly treated in breach of constitutional and natural justice.
We await hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
yî
LAVHRY KIRBY GILMARTIN
G\rc\200l\letter.200l\neligan.m P36-37
Appendix XV (96) (2) (c)
L a v e r y Kirby
G i l m a r t i n
solicitors
our Jref JL/RC. F RM C4D1 C/N03/NSPM

your ref
The Office of the Inspectors

Ansbacher Bank (Cayman) Limited
3 rd Floor •7 . ,
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin. 7 ,h January 2002.
RE: Our client: Maurice Neligan
Dear Sirs,
Your letter of the 21st of December refers.
We think it totally unfair in breach of the tenants of natural justice that you should publish
something to the High Court which will damage our client's reputation.
We have made a very significant and serious submission to you that our client was not aware that
he was a client of Ansbacher even though we dispute the definition of client.
We further make the following salient points:-
1. Our clients could not have "enjoyed the use of the funds" as found by you as the
money was moved without his notice, only a portion of his cash was used in this
transaction, there were no movements in or out of the account and furthermore our
clients loan in relation to the purchase of his property was in September whereas this
money was moved to Ansbacher in November so there was no "enjoyment" of the
funds provided by Ansbacher as we have previously submitted.
2. The Inspectors appear to have lost sight of the relevant and salient facts and this is
caused by having to submit in writing rather than being able to make the appropriate
submissions and question the findings which in all Tribunals, enquiries or
proceedings a person is entitled.
3. Our clients only option as a result of your decision on your procedures is to make an
application to the High Court, this, however, publishes our clients name in the
application and is totally unfair in the circumstances.
4. We have stated previously that under the provisions you have the right to make an
application for directions of the High Court and we would again request that you
make an application and put these points forward and appoint someone to make the
representations on behalf of the "clients" to protect their interests.

Ray Gilmartin Main Street
Blackrock
James Flynn Co. Dublin
Tel: 2888333
Laura McGinley Fax: 2831729
Incorporating e-mail: info@laverykirby.
Page -2-
7 th January 2002.
5. The actions taken by you in your finding do not go sufficient far enough to protect our
clients good name, undoubtedly there are those customers/clients of Ansbacher who
totally co-operated with the members of the Bank in utilizing the schemes, it is quite
clear that our client is going to get tarnished in subsequent reporting on this matter and
our clients name will be damaged.
6. Is this the Inspectors intention? We think it is not, however, this is a natural

consequence and we will put it to you to reconsider this matter fully.
E\rc\2002\letters.2002\negligan P1 -2
Appendix XV (97) Mr Oliver Nicol
Oliver Nicol.
a) Letter of 27 October 1982 - Guinness and Mahon to Orbit Investments

Limited.
b) Letter of 30 January 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
c) Letter of 6 August 1991 - Orbit Investments Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
d) Letter of 30 October 1991 - Orbit Investments to Guinness and Mahon.

n- r
G+M GUINNESS+MAHON LTD

17 <Mta» Onw OmMn 1 P.O. 80* 86A T«t 71WM (17 Unas)
BANKERS
Our Ref: TRL:AB.
27th. October 1982.
The Secretary.
Orbit Investments Limited.
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
P.O.Box. 887.
Grand Cayman,
BRITISH WEST INDIES.
Dear Sir,
Following recent negotiations we confirm that we are prepared
to place at your disposal a facility subject to the following
terms and conditions.
Borrower: Orbit Investments Limited.
Amount : Sterling Guineas 100,000 (One Hundred
Thousand) or its equivalent in U.S.Dollars
or any of the B.M.S. currencies.
Purpose: The funds have been placed at your disposal
to assist in the purchase of bloodstock.
Term: In accordance with normal banking practice
all funds taken up are repayable on demand
but in any case not later than lat.November
1985.
Drawdown: By way of Loan Account in your name.
Repayment: You have agreed to repay the loan out of
cash flow within the period stated.
Interest: We propose charging interest on the loan at
3* in excess of the cost to us of the
relevant funds for the period opted for.
Interest will be debited to the account and
become payable at the end of each interest
period.
*eMM> Mwii OuNft, hIMi H» ««•»»« Ofcmw: JX.OhIwim ictilmwl.ua. fwiM i»n»l. AM. a mm—. Quill Hi.
• w m O t r m - . OCatawOMMiOiMii*. (.Oifc*mfflSm.
*««IHIWOii>»w>lll»««
Security s As security for the loan we shall require
the enclosed Guarantee completed by
Mr.Olivier Nicol. , In addition we shall
require you to deposit such documents of
title that you receive in respect of the blood-
stock purchased.
Insurance: It is a condition of the loan that the
bloodstock purchased be adequately insured
at all times.
Liquidity: If there shall be any Increase in the cost to
us of making or maintaining the loan by an
amount which we deem material resulting from
any changes in the reserve or liquidity
requirements to which we may be subjected*
then we shall be entitled to call for payment
of additional interest of such amount as we
shall certify as the amount required to
compensate for such increased cost with
effect from the date of notification. You
shall be at liberty within one month after
such notification and without payment of any
premium or penalty to repay the full amount of
the facility outstanding together with
interest at the rate applying prior to
notification.
We are pleased to be of assistance to you in making this facility
available and enclose herewith a copy of this facility letter for
signature by your authorised signatories and return thereby
confirming your acceptance of the loan on the terms mentioned. We
shall require a copy of a Board Resolution authorising the borrowing.
Perhaps you would be good enough to also return the enclosed
Guarantee Form duly completed.
Yours faithfully,
FOE"EYIMN5SS_+ MAHON LIMITED.
T.R.LEONARD.
BANKING MANAGER.
PAT O'DWYER.
BANKING MANAGER.
Ends/..
Appendix XV (97) (l)(b)
Wet M m
Pleasereplyto: (M)MMU3/4
42 FtawflUam Sqnsnj IUhb CP 4305
Dublin 2. Ite (M)Mi»7Mf
171T"? r-'^^Ti PQJ) *»M2ST
Tfel: 765144/763065
Fax:612035
tavid Humphries, Esq.,

.or Manager - Operations,
.mess ftMahon Limited,
College Green,
LIN 2.
<ar David,
Duld you please arrange to let me have for collection two
rench Francs Drafts as detailed. The cost should be
ebited to Orbit Investjmnts Limited Account No.04085000 in
ach case.
F.Fes. 29,504.76 payable to Mr. O. Nicol
F.Fes. 263^75 payable to Mr..0. Nicol
Yours sincerel;
J.D. Traynor.
3T/AJN
ORBIT INVESTMENTS LTD
P.O. Box U7
Tfllapbo "M653/4 Grand Cayman
T«t«x: Or aO5 Cayman Mmb
42 FittwiDiam Square, British West IikHm
Dublin 2.
Ttel: 765144/763065
Fn: 612035
6th August, 1991.

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness a Mahon Limited,
17 College Green, .—
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection a
French Francs draft for Fr.Fes.31,685.06 payable to
Mr. Olivier Nicol and debit Account No.04085000.
Yours sincerely,
For ORBIT INVESTMENTS LTD.
JDT/AJW
T
m B I T INVESTMENTS LTD.
. r P.O. Box M 7
T«taphon«: !r-*»53/4 Pleasereplyto: Grand Cayman
Tetex: CP 305 42 Fitzwflliam Square, Cayman Island*
Dublin 2. Brithh Watt Intfw
Tel: 765144/763065
Fix- 612035
30th October, 1991

N. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - operations,
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DOBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection a
draft for F.Pcs.36,376.14 payable to Mr. Olivier Nicol and
debit our Account No.04085000.
Also, could you please arrange to roll the Deposit which
matures on the 8th November for a further aix months.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (98) Mr Michael J O'Keeffe, deceased
Michael J O'Keeffe.
a) Letter of 4 April 1972 - Guinness and Mahon to Michael J O'Keeffe.
b) Telex of 13 July 1976 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
c) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit minute of 18 February 1977.
d) Internal Guinness and Mahonfile note of 24 February 1978.
e) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 18 December 1984 - JD Traynor

to Securities Department.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Michael J O'Keeffe.
a) Letter of 28 December 2001 from KSi Faulkner Orr to Inspectors.

GUINNESS A M A H O N LT° COPY LLTTZ:;
17. COkLCOK QMSCN.

DUBLIN, S.
* HWH> «««M«*M
•AVOWS bVUiVf «««««•••«
Am •»«»*• •• «*Ml«Oft P.O.BOX SSA.
M«M «. •» WIMIfl
m m i («!•»»*
VV.
tMi«««»i «4t», iiwwa
Our Hof: PO'D:acb. 4th April, 1972
Mr. H.J. O'Kecffo,

• St. Kai'garcts,
Dray Rood,
Foxrock,
CO. DUDT.iy.
Dear Sir,
T.'e write to confira our Agreoniont

to sake availablo to you a facility to tho extent
of £^0,000 {fif-y thousand pounds), on tho
following condidons:-
1. All funds to be availed of by you in the

foro of a Loon Account.
3. Ve propose to charge interost on the Loan Account

at 9V3 Pcl* a«nun hut we roservo the right to
review the interest rate at any tine. Zntex*cst
will he debited to tho account on the
51st Docc:r.bcr, 31st March, 30th June and
30th Sc^tci-'bor annually. JTovover, wo will apply
to you for interest on the jlst March annually
only. In other words you nay take It that intorest
will ho debited to the account quartorly and payable
once a year . ',
As security / ...1.
Mr. M.J. O'Xceffo* continuation i*«et n» i.
'ith Anril. 1973
h. As security you undertake to provide us with

quoted Stock Exchange Seeuritios covering this
facility with a aargin of 25£, if called upon
to do so.
/ fc'e encloso a copy of this faollity latter,

herewith, which kindly sign and return to us in
confirmation of your acceptance of the facility
on the tcras aentioned. No doubt you Kill advise
us in due course as to the disposal of the funds
>j being made available. •
7ours faithfully,
for GDINN2SS & MASON' LTD.
2
j GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD
FROM t GUINNESS + MAHON LTD DUBLIN
13TH JULY 1976 "
ATTENTION MIKE SHIELD
RE YOUR LETTER OF 3RD JULY TO RU. I HAVE TRANSFERRED U.S.OOLLARS

127.90 TO^YOUR 7 D/N U.S.DOLLARS D/A IN LONDON AND DEBITED THE
SUNORY SUB CO. | HAVE ALSO DR. 00 10 THE SUNDRY SUB CO.
RE CHARGES FOR STATEMENTS. '
WOULD YOU PLEASE ADVISE ME I? YOU HAVE A U.S. OOLLAflID/A^TURING
FOR MICHAEL O'KEEFFE. I AM 'JNABLE TO TRACE ANYTHING HERE ANO
HE SEEMS TO THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING.
REGARDS HELEN
TIMED ATt ~X i"— •

| 7S 03 ~
305GUINNESS CP
5205 MARS El
A8/EH
Rtoiv 6MI KL*
M. J. O'Keeffe, Ejqutr* - EXTENSION:
Amount: £16,000
Turn One year to 3I*t March, 1978.
Ratas 15% fixed.
Drawdown^ Already drawnfay woy of loan. Balance oufctfondlna
£13,816.
Security; Suitably wcured.
Recommended.
Appendix XV (98) (l)(d)
/ c.c. C.A.W,
PILE NOTE: 24th February 1978
M
RE; MR.^J. O'KEEFFE
Loan 217,037.00
Interest Rate 15% fixed
^ V;,,>J
xj
The above facility falls due for repayment on the 31st
llarcti 1978.
Following a review of the Account it' t w agreed to extend the
facility for a period of one year to 3lst March 1979. The Loan
is "Suitably Secured", all conditions applicable to the facility
shall remain as buJTore,
^ ; '". ^.^•'rz;*: -..•••: -P. OlDwyer.
c.c. U.J.P.i C.A.W.

B.J.D., H.D.
PO' D 'AC
Continued,.......
T,.u J.ij.j 0-j>',»T:>i 1»»»N U-j.i'Vi) !'••-< .vi!'.'. O .••,-: : E

fcj.; I "rOOi-Zf. C• Go ; ,U'..» Cêc'vfcSVV.-O Cf0»n»i ' 0 Cc-v- " I
R'fj y -'eii N ••'•V'if II'..-.' • Hjv ' W !>•• i' vwm*. •"> -' "MJ.t-I •.
<•• •.,'>](/ Of.iHtC- ! 7
T
JtP-T. jftfflrtjlff 18th D*c«ab«r, 1984
Could you plMM anraag* to put th« aoeloaad •nralop*

la aafakMplng under rafwr«nc« O.M.C.T. r» Miohjwl
O'KaafJ*.
JDt/Uf
KSi
Faulkner
OurRef: DDO/COS
Orr
ACCOUNTANTS
TAX ADVISORS
& REGISTERED AUDITORS
Office of the Inspectors,
Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.,
3 r d Floor, I Adelaide C o u r t
Trident House, Adelaide Road
D u b l i n 2 ' Ireland
Blackrock, Tel: (353-1) 475 3100
Co. Dublin. Fax: (353-1) 475 3341
E-mail: info@ksifo.ie
28 December 2001
RE: MICHAEL J. O'KEEFFE, DEC'D

REF.NO. C/0'04/NSP
Dear Sirs,
W e have received your letter dated 10 December 2001 in connection with the above matter and
note your comments together with enclosures.
W e would advise that during his lifetime, the late Michael O'Keeffe outlined the various dealings
in connection with Guinness & Mahon Bankers and his personal investments. At no time
whatsoever did they Include any reference to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited nor any associated
Ansbacher Account.
It has transpired from subsequent meetings with both the Revenue and publicity in the news
media that the late Des Traynor pooled funds in relation to Guinness & Mahon customers and
invested these in Ansbacher (Cayman) without their knowledge. Mr. Michael O'Keeffe was one
of these and in the circumstances, should not in anyway be held liable under the Terms and
Reference of your appointment.
W e await hearing from you further.
Yours sincerely,
David Orr
KSi FAULKNER O R R
D A V I D O R R • DOMINICK TIGHE
C O N O R KENNEDY • DECLAN MULHALL
REGISTERED OFFICE:
I ADELAIDE COURT
ADELAIDE ROAD
DUBLIN 2 • IRELAND
V A T REGISTRATION NUMBER: 9 5 2 8 7 4 3 U
Appendix XV (99) Mr Maurice O'Kelly
Maurice O'Kelly.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Maurice O'Kelly dated 10 April 2000.
b) Statement of Mr Maurice O'Kelly of 9 March 2000.
c) Letter of 7 October 1993 - Hamilton Ross Co Limited to IIB.
d) Letter of 2 September 1994 - Hamilton Ross Co Limited to IIB.
e) Ansbacher Limited statement of 5 October 1992 re a/c no 80001643.
f) Ansbacher Limited statement of 31 December 1992 re a/c no 80001643.
g) Ansbacher Limited statement of 4 January 1993 re a/c no 80001643.
h) Ansbacher Limited statement of 31 March 1993 re a/c no 80001643.
i) Ansbacher Limited statement of 21 May 1993 re a/c no 80001643.
j) Ansbacher Limited statement of 9 June 1993 re a/c no 80001643.
k) Ansbacher Limited statement of 26 July 1993 re a/c no 80001643.
1) Ansbacher Limited statement of 31 October 1993 re a/c no 80001643.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MAURICE 0'KELLY
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 10TH APRIL 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. MAURICE 0'KELLY
Represented by: MR. BRIAN BOHAN
BOHAN SOLICITORS
31a WESTLAND SQUARE
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. M. O'KELLY MS. MACKEY 6 - 34
MS. MACKEY 38 - 39
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY,
2 10TH APRIL 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning.
5 MR. 0'KELLY: Morning Judge.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is
7 Declan Costello and on my
8 right is Ms. Mackey. We are two of the Inspectors
9 who were appointed, as you know, by The High Court.
10 MR. 0'KELLY: Sure.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you
12 Mr. 0'Kelly that this is
13 not a Court. It is not a Tribunal. It is an
14 interview. Ms. Mackey and myself are going to ask
15 you some questions.
16 MR. 0'KELLY: Right.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I want to make it clear
18 however that if you have
19 any problem about the questions that we ask you,
20 that you would like to get advice on, you may
21 consult your solicitor and we will stop asking you
22 questions.
23
24 Similarly, if your solicitor has any problem with
25 questions that we might ask he can ask us to stop
26 and consult with you.
27 MR. 0'KELLY: Sure.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The evidence will be taken
29 under oath Mr. O'Kelly and
4
1 I will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to administer
2 the oath to you.
3 MR. O'KELLY: Sure.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. O'Kelly, I am going to
5 ask Ms. Mackey to ask you
6 some questions.
7 A. Sure.
9 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
10 MS. MACKEY
11
12 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. O'Kelly, good morning?
13 A. Morning.
14 2 Q. You provided us with an agreed statement, an unsworn
15 statement, in writing. I think the simplest thing
16 would be simply to go through that?
17 A. Sure.
18 3 Q. And perhaps clarify some of the matters that you
19 have set out in this?
20 A. Sure.
21 4 Q. However, before I do that, for the record, I would
22 just like to get a brief history of your own career
23 and especially your career in Guinness & Mahon. As
24 I understand it from your statement you joined
25 Guinness & Mahon in 1971?
26 A. Yes.
27 5 Q. Is that right?
28 A. 1971, yes, that is correct.
29 6 Q. Prior to that you were?
6
1 A. Prior to that I qualified as a chartered accountant
2 in 1955.
3 7 Q. In 1955?
4 A. Yes, 1955.
5 8 Q. Yes?
6 A. When I went to -- I went away to Hong Kong.
7 9 Q. Yes?
8 A. My partner there died and I took over the firm,
9 which I then sold in 1967, 49% of it.
10 10 Q. This is in Hong Kong?
11 A. In Hong Kong.
12 11 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I returned to Ireland in 1960 and in 1962 I sold
14 the balance of my firm in Hong Kong.
15 12 Q. Yes?
16 A. And set up a firm in Dublin, Merrion Square, called
17 Commercial Investment Advisers.
18 13 Q. Commercial Investment Advisers?
19 A. Yes, and that was a company that specialised in the
20 mergers and acquisitions field.
21 14 Q. Right?
22 A. And venture capital field.
23 15 Q. Yes. That was in...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. That company...(INTERJECTION).
25 16 Q. 1961 you say?
26 A. 1963.
27 17 Q. 1963?
28 A. Yes. In 1971 that firm was taken over by
29 Guinness & Mahon. The connection there was
7
1 with Des Traynor who had become Managing Director
2 of G & M and he and I were Articled Clerks before
3 we became chartered accountants. We were in the
4 same firm as Articled Clerks.
5 18 Q. In Haughey Boland?
6 A. Haughey Boland, that is right.
7 19 Q. Yes?
8 A. We were both Articled Clerks under Charles Haughey.
9 20 Q. Right?
10 A. Now, my friendship with Des dated from that date,
11 1951 approximately 1952.
12 21 Q. Around 19?
13 A. 1951/52 I joined...(INTERJECTION).
14 22 Q. Haughey Boland?
15 A. Haughey Boland as an Articled Clerk and that was
16 the time I met Des Traynor for the first time.
17 23 Q. Right. It was through your acquaintanceship
18 with Des Traynor that the take over of Commercial
19 Investment Advisers?
20 A. Yes.
21 24 Q. By Guinness & Mahon?
22 A. Yes.
23 25 Q. Came about, is that right?
24 A. Yes. It wouldn't have been a very wise move from my
25 point of view because I certainly would have made a
26 lot more money if I continued to own Commercial
27 Investment Advisersright.
28 A. And continued to practice.
29 26 Q. Yes?
8
1 A. But it was through my friendship with Des.
2 27 Q. With Des?
3 A. That the acquisition of CIA by G & M in 1971.
4 28 Q. Right?
5 A. I joined as Joint Managing Director then in
6 Guinness & Mahon.
7 29 Q. You joined Guinness & Mahon?
8 A. Yes.
9 30 Q. As Joint Managing Director?
10 A. Joint Managing Director with responsibility really
11 for corporate finance.
12 31 Q. Yes?
13 A. That particular side of the bank activities.
14 32 Q. You continued on in Guinness and Mahon then until?
15 A. I resigned from G & M on 30th June 1985.
16 33 Q. 1985. What position did you hold at that stage?
17 A. In G & M?
18 34 Q. Yes?
19 A. Just the same. Just Joint Managing Director.
20 35 Q. Joint Managing Director, that is what you were all
21 the time?
22 A. All the time, yes.
23 36 Q. That is fine. Thank you Mr. O'Kelly. Getting back
24 then to your statement and to what you have just
25 told me, your friendship with Mr. Traynor then dates
26 from the early 1950's?
27 A. Yes, we were in Article's together.
28 37 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
9
1 38 Q. In your statement -- do you have a copy of your
2 statement with you, that you would like to refer to
3 perhaps (Exhibit 1)?
4 A. Yes .
5 39 Q. If you see paragraph 5 of your statement there
6 Mr. O'Kelly?
7 A. Yes .
8 40 Q. At the bottom of the first page?
9 A. Right.
10 41 Q. You say:
11 "All savings I had and proceeds of

sale of shares including (Atlantic
12 Resources) were given to Mr. Traynor
in Guinness & Mahon. I had joined
13 Guinness & Mahon in 1971. I had
certain moneys at that time and this
14 together with subsequent receipts
were lodged with Guinness & Mahon
15 through Mr. Traynor."
16
17 A. Yes .
18 42 Q. If you would tell us Mr. O'Kelly how this first came
19 about? What your first...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. Well, the first -- going back in time I think when
21 G & M bought Commercial Investment Advisers in 1971.
22 43 Q. Yes?
23 A. I owned approximately 70% of the share capital.
24 44 Q. Yes?
25 A. At that time the company was owned by Des Traynor,
26 the late Eamonn Andrews and the late
27 Christopher Gore Grimes, in equal percentages.
28 45 Q. Yes?
29 A. So, very roughly it was sort of 70/30.

1 46 Q. Yes?
2 A. And the proceeds of that sale, my share of the
3 proceeds of that sale -- I am not quite sure -- was
4 in an account which would be like a professional
5 firm's account, rather like partners in a legal firm
6 or partners in an accounting firm.
7 47 Q. Yes?
8 A. If you like an account to my credit.
9 48 Q. Yes?
10 A. With G & M which was paid...(INTERJECTION).
11 49 Q. In Guinness & Mahon?
12 A. Yes.
13 50 Q. Yes?
14 A. And to that account was lodged my salary from G & M
15 and I wrote my own personal -- no -- yes, to that
16 account and then there was a personal account from
17 which I paid bills and that kind of thing.
18 51 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes, and there was debits to that account.
20 52 Q. Yes?
21 A. So, that was the nature of that account, which may
22 seem terribly casual. It may seem very casual to
23 you but I can't explain that other...(INTERJECTION).
24 53 Q. Yes. However, that account was in Guinness & Mahon?
25 A. Yes.
27 A. Yes.
28 55 Q. That was an ordinary account in Guinness & Mahon?
29 A. Well, it was an ordinary -- it was an ordinary
11
1 account. It was an ordinary account in the context
2 of I presume that other people had an account like
3 that.
4 56 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I mean in my case it was in the nature of
6 an account which was a drawing account as well,
7 you know.
8 57 Q. Yes?
9 A. It was rather like if you were a partner in a legal
10 firm.
11 58 Q. Yes?
12 A. Or an accountancy firm.
13 59 Q. Yes. However, in relation to the monies that you
14 gave to Mr. Traynor, when did that arrangement begin
15 and how did that come about?
16 A. That would have been the balance that was due to me
17 from my sale of Commercial Investment Advisers, yes.
18 A. There was an amount due to me.
19 60 Q. Yes?
20 A. Which I can't remember now what it was.
21 61 Q. Yes?
22 A. At the time.
23 62 Q. No, that does not matter?
24 A. But it was probably around £4 0,000/30,000, you know.
25 63 Q. Yes?
26 A. Which does not sound very much.
27 64 Q. Yes. What happened about that? Did Mr. Traynor
28 suggest to you that it be invested or did you ask
29 him?
12
1 A. No, no. Nothing ever happened about it. It was
2 just there. It is just my current account if you
3 like.
4 65 Q. However, may be I am not understanding exactly what
5 you are saying?
6 A. Yes .
7 66 Q. You say here at paragraph 5?
8 A. Right.
9 67 Q.
"I had certain moneys at that time and
10 this together with subsequent receipts
were lodged with Guinness & Mahon
11 through Mr. Traynor."
12
13 When you say "through Mr. Traynor" what do you mean
14 there?
15 A. Well, I think that like -- I am not sure
16 whether that would be correct. I mean you
17 are really talking about the opening of an account
18 in Guinness & Mahon.
19 68 Q. Yes?
20 A. Whether Des Traynor opened the account for me.
21 69 Q. Right?
22 A. Or whether I opened the account after I joined
23 G & M, I am not sure.
24 70 Q. Obviously, what we are concerned here today about is
25 to find out your connection with "Ansbacher" Cayman
26 Limited or "the company" as we refer to it?
27 A. Yes .
28 71 Q. I think we might cut this thing short by saying that
29 it appears that you acknowledge that you had, in
13
1 fact, deposits with "Ansbacher" Cayman, is that
2 correct?
3 A. Well, I don't know what you would mean by having
4 deposits with "Ansbacher". I never opened a deposit
5 account with "Ansbacher" that I can recall.
6 72 Q. It appears Mr. 0'Kelly that in your interview
7 with Mr. Gerry Ryan, the authorised officer to
8 the Minister?
9 A. Yes .
10 73 Q. As a result of which we were appointed?
11 A. Yes .
12 74 Q. That you acknowledged to him that you did have an
13 account with "Ansbacher" Cayman, is that correct?
14 A. I mean I obviously had because I have been told that
15 I had.
16 75 Q. This is what we are trying to get at?
17 A. But I mean I never signed.
18 76 Q. No?
19 A. Put it this way, I never signed a piece of paper
20 saying I wished to have an account.
21 77 Q. Right?
22 A. With "Ansbacher" and I never authorised the transfer
23 of any money to "Ansbacher". I
24 mean...(INTERJECTION).
25 78 Q. What we are trying to ascertain today is, how it
26 came about. Did Mr. Traynor at any stage offer to
27 invest money for you?
28 A. No.
29 79 Q. He did not?
1 A. No.
2 80 Q. Did...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. And I wasn't in receipt of any interest that I know
4 of.
5 81 Q. We will come to that. However, just getting back to
6 the opening of this account, do you say now that the
7 account that you had with Guinness & Mahon is the
8 account that some how or another subsequently was
9 transformed into the "Ansbacher" account?
10 A. Well, all I am saying is that it would appear that
11 an account in my name, which would represent a sort
12 of personal account.
13 82 Q. Yes?
14 A. Was transferred or opened in "Ansbacher" for me.
15 83 Q. Right?
16 A. But I mean...(INTERJECTION).
17 84 Q. You say in your statement here at paragraph three?
18 A. Right.
19 85 Q.
"It appears from my statements from
20 Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited that I
may have had the benefit of a "back
21 to back" facility."
22
23 Do you have statements from "Ansbacher" Cayman
24 Limited now?
25 A. Well, back to back facility, that implies that I had
26 a loan.
27 86 Q. No, no. I am not interested just for the moment in
28 the back to back facility. It is simply your
29 statements. You say here you have statements from

1 "Ansbacher" Cayman. Do you have them in your
2 possession?
3 MR. BOHAN: Will you just give me a
4 few seconds, I may have
5 the them here? I am not sure I brought them from
6 the office. These came late.
7 87 Q. MS. MACKEY: While your solicitor is
8 looking for those
9 Mr. 0'Kelly, where did you obtain these statements
10 from?
11 A. I am sure I obtained the statements from
12 Padraig Collery I would think after Des died.
13 88 Q. Right?
14 A. Des Traynor died in...(INTERJECTION).
15 89 Q. 1994?
16 A. 1994.
17 90 Q. Yes?
18 A. And it was May.
19 91 Q. Yes?
20 A. And I presume Padraig gave them to in after that
21 date.
22 92 Q. Right. (Same handed) (Exhibit 4). Mr. O'Kelly
23 these statements begin in 1992. Do you have any
24 earlier statements?
25 A. Do I have any earlier statements.
26 93 Q. Yes?
27 A. No, I don't have any earlier statements.
28 94 Q. Do you have any other documentation provided to you
29 by Mr. Collery in relation to this account?
16
1 A. By Mr. Collery?
2 95 Q. Yes?
3 A. No, I don't, no.
4 96 Q. Do you have any documentation which Mr. Traynor
5 provided to you?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 97 Q. During the time that you had this account
8 Mr. O'Kelly did Mr. Traynor -- did you receive any
9 statements from Guinness & Mahon about it?
10 A. About my current account?
11 98 Q. Yes?
12 A. No.
13 99 Q. The account that you are talking about here?
14 A. No.
15 100 Q. That you opened?
16 A. No.
17 101 Q. This, you say, as you understood it at the time, was
18 an account in Guinness & Mahon. Would you not
19 normally have received a statement?
20 A. From my knowledge. From my bank, yes, I am sure I
21 would.
22 102 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 103 Q. How did you know at any given moment what state your
25 account was in?
26 A. I just always knew it was in the black. I mean I
27 know this seems extraordinary to you, and I know I
28 am a chartered accountant, and I know I am supposed
29 to be conscious of looking after money better, but I
17
1 didn't really need it at the time. Like the salary
2 which I earned while I was in G & M, and then the --
3 when I set up in private practice as a non-executive
4 Director the income fees etc. were more than
5 adequate, you know.
6 104 Q. Just getting back again to your statement, you say
7 at paragraph five, if you would just look at it
8 again Mr. O'Kelly, you start off that paragraph by
9 saying:
10
"All savings I had and proceeds of
11 sale of shares including (Atlantic
Resources) were given to Mr. Traynor
12 in Guinness & Mahon."
13
14 That on the face of it appears to say that whatever
15 monies you were lodging you gave to Mr. Traynor, is
16 that the way you went about it?
17 A. Had already given him. I mean that was when I
18 joined G & M in 1971.
19 105 Q. You gave them to Mr. Traynor?
20 A. Yes, the balance that I had at that particular time.
21 106 Q. I see?
22 A. Which came from the sale of Commercial Investment
23 Advisers understand.
24 A. Plus the sale of my interest in Hong Kong.
25 107 Q. Yes?
26 A. So, I had a certain amount of money.
27 108 Q. Did you give them to Mr. Traynor personally?
28 A. Well, sure I gave him -- I gave Des a cheque. Well,
29 he would have given me a cheque I suppose for my 70%
18
1 interest in...(INTERJECTION).
2 109 Q. However, what you had you gave to him, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 110 Q. What was he doing with that as you understood it?
6 A. Well, I presume it was on deposit in G & M. I
7 mean...(INTERJECTION).
8 111 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, you say you presume it. However, what
9 did you understand at that time?
10 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
11 112 Q. That you were giving him the money for?
12 A. Again, I presumed. I presumed. I mean that is what
13 I did presume.
14 113 Q. When you handed him the money what did you ask him
15 to do?
16 A. Well, I presumed it was just on deposit in G & M or
17 on an account in G & M. I mean...(INTERJECTION).
18 114 Q. What did you ask him to do Mr. O'Kelly?
19 A. I didn't ask him to do anything.
20 115 Q. You just gave him money?
21 A. And he would have given me some money, wouldn't he,
22 because I sold CIA to G & M? So, he would have
23 given me some money. I would have had money which I
24 gave to him. I had an account with the Bank Of
25 Ireland in Terenure.
26 116 Q. You gave him all your savings, it says here, you
27 say?
28 A. Yes.
29 117 Q. Yes?
19
1 A. That I had at that stage.
2 118 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which were...(INTERJECTION).
4 119 Q. What did you ask him to do with those savings?
5 A. I didn't ask him to do anything.
6 120 Q. What did he tell you he was doing with them?
7 A. I don't think he ever told me what he was doing with
8 them. I mean I never...(INTERJECTION).
9 121 Q. Did you think he was keeping them?
10 A. I am not suggesting...(INTERJECTION).
11 122 Q. For himself personally?
12 A. No, no. I thought they were in the bank in an
13 account in G & M. That is what I assumed.
14 123 Q. Can you remember the conversation you had with
15 Mr. Traynor when you handed him over all your
16 savings?
17 A. No, I certainly can't.
18 124 Q. You cannot?
19 A. No.
20 125 Q. You also say in paragraph 5:
21
"I had certain moneys at that time..."
22
23 You have explained what they are,
24 "...and this together with

subsequent receipts were lodged with
25 Guinness & Mahon through Mr. Traynor."
26
27 What do you mean by "Subsequent receipts"
28 Mr. O'Kelly?
29 A. Well, I would have obtained I presume -- like I made
20
1 money on the shares mentioned above, the Atlantic
2 Resources shares.
3 126 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I can't remember what I made but it
5 was...(INTERJECTION).
6 127 Q. The amount we are not concerned with here?
7 A. Yes, but it was something like £190,000 and I paid
8 tax. After my illness my son paid my income tax.
9 128 Q. Right?
10 A. So, then they were the monies that I am referring
11 to.
12 129 Q. However, what are the subsequent receipts?
13 A. They would have been the salary from G & M, I
14 presume.
15 130 Q. Your salary from Guinness & Mahon was going into
16 this account, is that correct?
17 A. This current account, yes.
18 131 Q. When you say it was going into the current account,
19 what happened with your salary cheques? Were they
20 lodged directly?
21 A. To my current account?
22 132 Q. Or were they given to you?
23 A. I am sure I had a current account with G&M. Of
24 course I had.
25 133 Q. Are we talking about two separate accounts here or
26 one account?
27 A. Well, I am not quite sure but we are probably
28 talking about two accounts. One would be my current
29 account, one would be the balance. I mean I am not
21
1 quite sure. Maybe it was all one account.
2 134 Q. One, you say, might have been your current account
3 and the other might have been the balance?
4 A. It could be.
5 135 Q. By the balance do you mean the balance of the sale
6 that was due to you from Commercial Investment
7 Advisers?
8 A. Yes, plus another company that I owned called
9 Simpsons.
10 136 Q. Yes?
11 A. Which I sold in 1982.
12 137 Q. You think that that might have been in a separate
13 account from your current account?
14 A. Actually, you know, I don't know but I assume so.
15 138 Q. Why would you assume that?
16 A. Well, I would be lodging every month a salary
17 cheque. It would have been transferred to this
18 account by G & M.
19 139 Q. Was the salary cheque that was lodged every
20 month lodged directly by Guinness & Mahon, is
21 that correct, or was it given to you?
22 A. Well, it wasn't given to me. So, I mean it was
23 either transferred. It was either lodged to that
24 current account in G & M or it was transfer to my
25 current account in Bank Of Ireland in Terenure.
26 140 Q. Did you get statements regarding your current
27 account in Guinness & Mahon, regular statements?
28 A. No.
29 141 Q. You did not?
22
1 A. No.
2 142 Q. Guinness & Mahon did not provide you with any
3 statements?
4 A. No.
5 143 Q. When Mr. Traynor died what did you do then in regard
6 to your account?
7 A. When Mr. Traynor died?
8 144 Q. Yes?
9 A. Well, I understood Padraig Collery transferred the
10 balance.
11 145 Q. Just not what you understood, but what did you do?
12 A. I didn't do anything.
13 146 Q. You did not make any enquiries about your account?
14 A. No, Padraig Collery -- I mean Padraig Collery must
15 have contacted me soon, quite soon, after that date.
16 147 Q. Padraig Collery contacted you?
17 A. I am sure, yes.
18 148 Q. Why would Padraig Collery contact you about your
19 Guinness & Mahon account?
20 A. I presume because he was -- he had responsibility
21 for it within the Bank.
22 149 Q. Padraig Collery, I think, was not in the Bank
23 in 1994, is that not correct?
24 A. I am not sure. I am not sure when he left.
25 150 Q. As we understand it Padraig Collery left in 1989,
26 left Guinness & Mahon in 1989?
27 A. 1989, yes.
28 151 Q. Mr. Traynor died in 1994?
29 A. Right.
23
1 152 Q. It is quite clear that if Mr. Collery contacted you
2 at that time you could not have thought it was in
3 connection with Guinness & Mahon business, is that
4 not correct?
5 A. Well, it was. It was about my account.
6 153 Q. What would Mr. Collery, who was no longer working
7 with Guinness & Mahon, have to do with your account?
8 A. Well, he was obviously looking after it. Des or
9 Niall said he was looking after it.
10 154 Q. Would you not find that very strange, Mr. O'Kelly?
11 A. I do find it strange, yes, when I look back.
12 155 Q. Did you not at the time?
13 A. No, at the time. At the time that Des died I was
14 (A) upset with Des, and (B) I just had the stroke
15 about a year and a half at that stage and I don't
16 think I was perhaps handling things too clearly or
17 carefully.
18 156 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, from these statements here, that you
19 have given us, it is clear that interest accrued on
20 your account from time to time. It appears here on
21 the statement?
22 A. Right.
23 157 Q. You acknowledge that I am sure?
24 A. Sure.
25 158 Q. It is here on the face of the statements (Exhibit
26 4) ?
27 A. Yes .
28 159 Q. Did you declare that interest to The Revenue
29 Commissioners ?
1 A. That I don't know.
3 A. No.
4 161 Q. You evidence to us is that you do not know whether
5 you did or not?
6 A. The evidence is that I don't know.
7 162 Q. Right?
8 A. Yes. I don't know whether it is significant,
9 whether the interest was significant or not.
10 MR. BOHAN: We will be clearing that
11 up with The Revenue
12 Commissioners.
13 MS. MACKEY: Yes. However, it is a
14 matter of fact for us.
15 MR. BOHAN: Yes.
16 163 Q. MS. MACKEY: You made certain
17 withdrawals Mr. O'Kelly
18 from this account?
19 A. Yes.
20 164 Q. You refer to one here at paragraph 4 of your
21 statement:
22 "The initial withdrawal of £55,000 I do

not remember..."?
23
24 A. Yes.
25 165 Q.
"... and it may have been arranged
26 through Mr. Traynor while I
requested any other withdrawals
27 through Mr. Collery"?
28
29 A. Yes.
25
1 166 Q. The withdrawals that you requested through
2 Mr. Collery, did you request those before
3 Mr. Traynor's death or afterwards?
4 A. They would have varied I think because my children
5 were getting married. I think I gave a load of -- I
6 have five boys and one daughter and I gave the
7 boys some money on their marriage. I think it was
8 £30,000 each.
9 167 Q. Was that before Mr. Traynor's death, before 1994?
10 A. Well, they got married on different dates.
11 168 Q. However, were some...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. You know we are going back to -- yes, we are going
13 back to like 1988 and 1990.
14 169 Q. What I am trying to ascertain is whether you made
15 withdrawals prior to Mr. Traynor's death?
16 A. Both.
17 170 Q. Both?
18 A. Before and after.
19 171 Q. Those that you made before Mr. Traynor's death, did
20 you make them all through Mr. Collery except for
21 this initial withdrawal, or did you make some of
22 them through Mr. Traynor, or can you remember?
23 A. I would say they are all through Padraig. Maybe the
24 first one might have been -- I might have said to
25 Des when Michael got married -- I might have said to
26 Des -- I can't remember really.
27 172 Q. Could you tell me how -- what you did when you
28 required a withdrawal?
29 A. I just dialled -- told Padraig or Des that -- to

1 transfer money to me, to Bank Of Ireland in
2 Terenure.
3 173 Q. To the Bank Of Ireland in Terenure?
4 A. Yes.
5 174 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. Maybe it was (inaudible) bank and I transferred it
7 to Terenure.
8 175 Q. Yes. Mr. O'Kelly, can I ask you to look at a
9 document. It is page 19 (Exhibit 2) (Same handed)?
10 A. Thanks.
11 176 Q. Actually, perhaps, page 21 as well. No, sorry,
12 Mary. Page 19 for the moment. You see that letter
13 Mr. O'Kelly?
14 A. Yes.
15 177 Q. Which is headed, the heading is slightly blocked out
16 there in the photocopy:
17 "Hamilton Ross Co. Limited, PO Box 887,

Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands"?
18
19 A. Yes.
20 178 Q. I am sorry. The one I am referring to you, the one
21 I am asking you to look at, does not have that
22 heading on it in the photocopy. However, you can
23 see at the bottom it is signed:
24 "For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED."
25
26 Do you see that?
27 A. Yes.
28 179 Q. It is addressed to Ronan Redmond of Irish
29 Intercontinental Bank Limited?
27
1 A. Yes.
2 180 Q. If you look at that letter, which is dated 7th
3 October 1993, it says:
4 "Dear Ronan, Could you please arrange

to let us have for collection a
5 Sterling cheque for Stg.£38,085.88
payable to THE MIDLAND BANK and debit
6 the cost to Hamilton Ross Account..."?
8 A. Yes.
9 181 Q. At the bottom there is a reference:
10
"DPC..."
11
12 Which we understand to be Dermot Patrick Collery,
13 "...Please debit A/A55."
14
15 And then in handwriting:
16 "Cheque posted to MEOK at home..."
17
18 A. Yes.
19 182 Q.
". . .13/10/93"
20
21 A. Right, yes.
22 183 Q. Is that a withdrawal that you recollect receiving?
23 A. Well, I don't recollect receiving it but I mean
24 obviously -- it is obviously related to one of the
25 boys getting married.
26 184 Q. Right?
27 A. And my gift to him.
28 185 Q. To him. Can I pass you another document and this is
29 page 25. (Exhibit 3) (Same Handed)?

28
1 A. Yes.
2 186 Q. This is a letter of the 2nd September 1994. Again,
3 it is signed on behalf of Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
4 and addressed again to Irish Intercontinental Bank?
5 A. Yes.
6 187 Q. With again the reference:
7 "DPC - A/A55"
9 at the bottom?
10 A. Yes.
11 188 Q. This letter asks for Stg.£16,000 to be transferred
12 to The Midland Bank, Poultry and Princess Street,
13 London?
14 A. Yes.
15 189 Q. For credit to the account of M. E. O'Kelly?
16 A. Yes.
17 190 Q. Was that your account in The Midland Bank
18 Mr. O'Kelly?
19 A. I am sure it is, yes. You see The Midland Bank
20 is the -- The Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank took over
21 The Midland Bank.
22 191 Q. You had an account there, with The Hong Kong &
23 Shanghai Bank?
24 A. My account was with The Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank
25 and then they took over The Midland Bank.
26 192 Q. Is that another withdrawal that you would have made
27 at that time?
28 A. I am sure it is, yes.
29 193 Q. Yes?
29
1 A. You see you must remember that around that time.
2 194 Q. Yes?
3 A. 1992/1993 to 1995, that I did resign. I did give up
4 several of my directorships.
5 195 Q. Yes?
6 A. Because of my health at that particular time.
7 196 Q. Yes?
8 A. So, two things happened over that particular period,
9 1993 to 1998. The two significant things, from my
10 personal point of view, were first my stroke.
11 197 Q. Yes?
12 A. And I resigned two or three of my directorships as a
13 result of it.
14 198 Q. Yes?
15 A. And in addition a firm of which I am Chairman in
16 Waterford, Waterford Stanley Limited, the Financial
17 Director lost something like £4.3 million in foreign
18 exchange speculation at that time and there was no
19 dividends in Waterford Stanley for a period of three
20 years. I think it is from 1997 on.
21 199 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, if I — not to interrupt you there?
22 A. Not at all.
23 200 Q. Not to interrupt you there but...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. I am just trying to tell you, explain, why I needed
25 such large amounts that is all.
26 201 Q. Yes. We are not really concerned with the reasons
27 why you needed them?
28 A. Fine.
29 202 Q. Just the fact that, in fact, you made withdrawals?
30
1 A. Sure.
2 203 Q. From this account from time to time?
3 A. Sure.
4 204 Q. It appears that in 1993 your account was transferred
5 from "Ansbacher" to Hamilton Ross & Co. Limited.
6 Are you aware of that?
7 A. No, I wouldn't have been aware of that at the time.
8 205 Q. You were not aware of that?
9 A. I mean -- sorry, I mean I understand how
10 Hamilton Ross came into the picture but I wasn't
11 told it was being transferred there or anything
12 relating to it.
13 206 Q. Yes. Were you aware Mr. O'Kelly that your account
14 was one of the coded accounts in Guinness & Mahon,
15 coded A/A55?
16 A. Well, I am sure I was aware of it but I mean I
17 wouldn't have attached any particular significance
18 to that.
19 207 Q. Yes?
20 A. Like I mean I just thought that was an account
21 number.
22 208 Q. You thought A/A55 was an account number?
23 A. Yes, I mean it wouldn't have registered with me as
24 being peculiar in any way.
25 209 Q. When would you have become aware that
26 was...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I didn't become aware until...(INTERJECTION).
28 210 Q. An account number?
29 A. I didn't make...(INTERJECTION).
1 211 Q. No, no. When were you -- when did the number A/A55
2 become known to you? Were you aware -- did you know
3 it at the time?
4 A. I don't think it ever became known to me insofar as
5 I never made a note of it or anything but I did
6 become aware of the fact that -- subsequently I
7 heard, it must have been from Padraig Collery or
8 somebody, that I was in an account holder, there was
9 other people in the same account or something.
10 212 Q. You became aware that you were in an account with
11 others?
12 A. There was other people in the same account.
13 213 Q. That other people were in the same account?
14 A. I gather.
15 214 Q. Did Mr. Collery tell you that?
16 A. I think it was. It couldn't have been anybody else
17 I don't think.
18 215 Q. When would that have been?
19 A. I don't know. It must have been around about after
20 Des died. It must have been around about 1995/1996
21 when I became aware of the fact that there was
22 some account, either in G & M or in Cayman, where
23 CJ Haughey and myself and somebody else were in the
24 same account.
25 216 Q. You were aware at that stage that it may have been
26 in Cayman?
27 A. No, I wasn't aware it was in Cayman. I was just
28 aware I was in the same account at CJ and somebody
29 else in 1996 or 1997.
32
1 217 Q. Right. What did you ask Mr. Collery about that when
2 he told you?
3 A. I didn't ask him anything about it. There was
4 nothing to be asked about it.
5 218 Q. Did it not seem strange that you thought your money
6 was in a current account in Guinness & Mahon and now
7 it appeared that it was in a joint account with
8 other persons?
9 A. Not a joint account. It wasn't a joint account. It
10 was just that I was in the same account.
11 219 Q. However, can you explain that to me a little bit?
12 A. I can't explain it to you and if you can explain it
13 to me that would be fine.
14 220 Q. However, you must surely have questioned Mr. Collery
15 about that?
16 A. Well, I asked him how did it arise.
17 221 Q. Yes?
18 A. And he said it was for convenience, something to do
19 with the transfers or something.
20 222 Q. That it was something to do with the transfers?
21 A. Yes, like I can't remember in what words he
22 explained it to me but he had an explanation for it
23 at the time, it was convenient for something or
24 other.
25 223 Q. You cannot remember that now, is that right?
26 A. I don't know what the explanation was.
27 224 Q. If I could summarise Mr. O'Kelly, is it the case
28 that you gave money to Mr. Traynor. This, as I
29 understand it, is a summary of your evidence here
33
1 today: You gave money to Mr. Traynor from about
2 1971 onwards; you were not aware of what he did with
3 it; you did not ask him to do any particular thing;
4 it now appears that that money was on deposit with
5 the company known as "Ansbacher" Cayman Limited; the
6 money earned interest over the years; you do not
7 remember whether you declared that money, the
8 interest, to The Revenue or not; you made certain
9 withdrawals by contacting either Mr. Traynor or
10 Mr. Collery, including Mr. Collery at a time after
11 he had left Guinness & Mahon. Would that be a
12 correct summary of your evidence today?
13 A. Well, with regard to it that it seems very
14 extraordinary for a chartered accountant to behave
15 in this fashion then I would believe -- I would
16 agree that it is a correct summary of the events.
17 225 Q. Very good. I have no further questions Mr. O'Kelly.
18 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. MAURICE O'KELLY BY
19 MS. MACKEY
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
34
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 226 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just in relation to the
5 payment of tax
6 Mr. O'Kelly, did you look after your own tax affairs
7 or had you an accountant?
8 A. No, they were always looked after by an accountant.
9 227 Q. Who was that? What was his name?
10 A. Well, wait until I see. There was two. There was
11 the auditors to Simpsons, which was a firm that I
12 bought in 1962. It is a printing firm in
13 Dury Street that I bought before I started CIA and I
14 sold it in 1982.
15 228 Q. Can you remember the name of the firm?
16 A. I am just trying to think. It was...(INTERJECTION).
17 229 Q. What was their...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Dodd. Christopher Dodd, Chris Dodd was
19 the...(INTERJECTION).
20 230 Q. Chris Dodd?
21 A. Yes.
22 231 Q. Who else did you have then?
23 A. But it was Dodd something. Grehan Dodd, sorry.
24 232 Q. Yes?
25 A. G-r-e-h-a-n Dodd. He had died.
26 233 Q. Yes?
27 A. Grehan Dodd & Company. They were in O'Connell
28 Street.
29 234 Q. Yes?
35
1 A. And they were the auditors to Simpsons. So, that
2 was my connection with them.
3 235 Q. They were you own personal accountants?
4 A. They -- yes, they looked after my personal tax, yes,
5 until I left G & M in 1985 and I had my offices. I
6 do still have my offices located in Baggot Street,
7 and in the building of a friend of mine called
8 Brendan Sherry, who operates as a chartered
9 accountant. He has a chartered accountancy firm and
10 I transferred my tax in that year to be looked after
11 by the taxation expert in Sherry O'Connor. I am
12 just trying to think of his name for a second.
13 236 Q. Yes?
14 A. Any way that is the name of the firm that looked
15 after it.
16 237 Q. Either then Grehan Dodd or Brendan Sherry's records
17 would show...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Yes, they complete my annual tax returns every time.
19 238 Q. They made your returns?
20 A. Yes .
21 239 Q. They could establish whether or not there was
22 included in your returns any interest you have
23 earned?
24 A. That is correct.
25 240 Q. Have you made enquiries?
26 A. I haven't made enquiries. I don't think it is
27 material. I don't think it is very large now. I
28 mean -- when I say that I mean it may appear very
29 casual or very careless but I don't think the
36
1 interest that I earned would be substantial.
2 241 Q. There as a fairly substantial sum of money to
3 the credit of this account, "Ansbacher" account,
4 in 1992, is there not?
5 A. Yes, I am sure there is. Is there? I can't
6 remember.
7 242 Q. There is?
8 A. Yes.
9 243 Q. A substantial sum?
10 A. Yes.
11 244 Q. And interest would be substantial on that per annum?
12 A. The interest would be substantial, would it?
13 245 Q. What I am asking is, as I understand it, you do not
14 know whether or not you returned those for income
15 tax?
17 246 Q. Have you made enquiries from your accountants?
18 A. No.
19 247 Q. Yes. Very well.
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
37
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS RE-EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY
4 248 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just one other matter
5 Mr. O'Kelly?
6 A. Yes.
7 249 Q. We required you in our letter to you to produce to
8 us all documents in your possession. Now, in fact,
9 just today you produce to us the statements from
10 "Ansbacher". Have you any other documents in you
11 possession whatsoever?
12 A. I am sorry. I thought you had them.
13 MR. BOHAN: Yes, we did get some other
14 documents. There is
15 roughly the same as you have and now, that was my
16 fault and I apologise.
17 MS. MACKEY: We require everything you
18 possess please.
19 MR. BOHAN: I will get it down to you.
20 I apologise for that.
21 MS. MACKEY: Yes. Thank you very much.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We require every document
23 that Mr. O'Kelly has given
24 to you.
25 MR. BOHAN: Yes. I will make sure you
26 get it today.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
28 250 Q. MS. MACKEY: Have you written
29 Mr. O'Kelly to "Ansbacher"
38
1 Cayman in connection with your account and asked
2 them for documents?
3 A. No.
4 251 Q. Would you do that please?
5 A. Write to "Ansbacher" in Cayman?
6 252 Q. To "Ansbacher" Cayman and to Hamilton Ross and ask
7 them for any documents that they may have in
8 relation to your account, A/A55?
9 MR. BOHAN: Sorry, we will do that.
10 MS. MACKEY: Thank you.
11 MR. BOHAN: Yes.
13 MS. MACKEY
14
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you Mr. O'Kelly.
16 This evidence given today
17 with be transcribed and we would ask you to come in
18 to sign the transcript of the evidence?
19 A. Sure.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would like to stay
21 on now and have a cup of
22 coffee you can, you might prefer to leave however.
23 MR. BOHAN: Thank you very much.
24 A. Thank you.
25
27
28
29
a
V\ ^<Ktwlrs£
\XxVuA
\ ^CMQJCSAQJ- ÔGO
Statement of Maurice O'Kelly for the Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court to
Ansbacher Cayman Limited.
A. I suffered a serious stroke on 18 November 1992. My memory suffered significantly and

is still impaired. I was treated in St James Hospital and by Dir. Karl Cannon. I enclose a
copy of a letter of confirmation from Dr. Cannon.
B. Thefollowing are the specific answers to the questions raised in the letter dated 21
December 1999 addressed to me:-
1. I have no knowledge whatsoever of the operation of Cayman Island Trusts or
Trust Companies. I never executed a deed of trust or other instrument in the
Cayman Island or elsewhere whereby the Company or any person associated with
it was a trustee or managed the trust.
2. I never caused a body corporate to be established in the Cayman Islands to which
money or other assets was or were assigned and which were managed by the
Company or by some other person associated with it or acting at its discretion.
3. It appears from my statements from Ansbacher (Cayman) limited Oat I may
have had the benefit of a "back to back" facility although I did not know of this.
I was seriously ill around the time this happened and I had lost almost all sources
of income.
I withdrew moneys by requesting Mr. Collery to deal with the matter. There
were a number of significant withdrawals but these were mainly for living
expenses (in the absence of a definite income) andfor wedding gifts to children.
Following the death of the husband of my former secretary Carmel Byrne (then
Smyth), I contributed £1,000 p.m. for her maintenance etc. until die remarried.
This is to be repaid to me.
I have a substantial loan (£140,000) with Ulster Bank which is a personal loan
and is not secured by any "back to back" facility.
4. I was not aware or do not remember the use of "back to back" financing.
The initial withdrawal of £55,000 I do not remember and may have been
arranged through Mr. Traynor while I requested any other withdrawals through
Mr. Collery.
The dates of any such withdrawals are evidentfrom the statements.
5. All savings I had and proceeds of sale of shares including (Atlantic Resources)
were given to Mr. Traynor in Guinness & Mahon. I had joined Guinness
&Mahon in 1971. I had certain moneys at that time and this together with
subsequent receipts were lodged with Guinness & Mahon through Mr. Traynor.
6. All lodgements and withdrawals were personal.
7. The bank account numbers and codes are ascertainable from the statements.
Ansbacher Limited Account no. 80001643 AJA5
8. I never availed of or had any dealings with Kreditbank N.V.
9. I did not apply for Exchange Control consent As far as I was concerned the only
money I had outside the country was with HKSC Bank, an account I have had
since I was in Hong Kong prior to my return to Ireland in 1961. I never
considered whether or not I was breaking Exchange Control regulations.
10. I never had any dealing with Channel Island companies.

»
_ 7th Ootobar, 1993.

Ronan Redmond, Baq.»
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
^ 91 Merrion. Square,
DUBLIN 2.
)
Dear Ronan,
Could you plaaae arrange to lat us have for oollaation a
Sterling cheque for Stg.£38,085.88 payable to THS MIDLAND BANK
and debit the cost to Hamilton Ross Aewamt No. 02/0135 4/81.
Toura sincerely,
• «
^ For HAMILTOW ROBS CO. LIMITED
e,
JDT/AJW
DPC - Please debit A/A5S
pottLaL &
n
hffO'K out b * h * ,
)
Ms. Drift Nblan-Casridy. 2nd September, 1994.
Corporate Services,
Irish btercontmental Bank Limited,
91 Morion Square,
D U B L I N 2.
^DearDairat
Could you please arrange to transfer Stg.£16,000,00 to:
Midland Bank
P.O. Box 648
Poultry and Princess Street
London EC2P2BX
Sort Code: 40-03-3QT
fbrcretfitto Account of. M. OTCefly
^ Account Na41474553
..lease debit die cost to Hamilton Bon Account Na02/01354/81.
L- )
Yours sincenfy,
For HAMILTON ROSS CO LIMITED
PPC/AJW
Appendix XV (99) (l)(e)
ANSBACHER LIM ED
PO. Box W7 3 mod Cayman Brftlah Waal Indfw
Talaphona Ho.»• 4683*4
JjObachi
tar United TalaxCPaos CaHaAd*aaaOMilniMM
CayMO
A/AS3
L. J (0001643 M«
•MMMMOHMMAMNk atartlac
1
3/10/91 9/10/93 330000.00

5/10/92 5/10/93 TO nTAY LOAN
3/10/93 5/10/93 IKT ON 530K .
5/10/43 5/10/93 LODGED 3066.94
jH/10/93 33760.09
owatoroawAic
Appendix XV (99) (1) (f)
.'.rto.rerir of- A C C O U N T ANSBACHER LIM "ED
P.O. Box 587 Grand Cayman BfWih Wad India*
TatapiMM Nu. M W H
nubie
bachar Liaittd Taiax CP SOS Cabt* AddraM Otibuiasa
CayMO
K/U5
L. J ACCOUNT NUMB) (0001643
WUMIM—lnMii atarlUg
3
bo/u/92 23760.09
11/12/93 31/12/93 Intaraat to 31/13/93 413.03
24173.
91/12/92
c*owa)ro»w*no
ttai ANSBACHER LIM ED
P.O. Box 867 Oram! Cayman BrWah Waat tadiaa
Talaphona Na 4663M
(CSlLTON BOSS TataxCPSOS Cabia Mdraaa Oubuiaaa
A/A33
L. J aooouu M M
ACCOUNT N U M M M
•MMNMMOWNMSM atarllac
I
1/01/93
M/Ol/93 31/12/93 3*173. U
11/01/93 24173.1*
CIUIIBWWMO
Appendix XV (99) (1) (h)
ANSBACHER LIM: ED
P.O. Box M7 Orand Cayman BritlaA H Indlaa
Talaphona Nc> 8—4*53/4
|C5iI]ILTON K»S Talax CP 306 CaMaAddnaaChilraiaaa
A/ASS
L. J 800016^3 PAM
• A L A N C M SHOWN A M I M : atarllog
24173.14
1/03/93 31/03/93 IntSrS? r to*31/03/93 333.33
>1/03/93 24326.47
CAIWKOPONMAM
Appendix XV (99) (l)(i)
/
I ANSBACHER LIM ED
P.O. Box B«T Grand Cayman BrtUah Waal Indlaa
Talaphena Na 8 MHW
ILTON BOSS TalaxCPMS Cabla Addraaa Oalnoaaa
r A/A9S
J 80001643 ma
(ALAMOalNOWN AMUk
3
173.87 2*700.34
17/08/93 17/08/93 JSSSSR*ffl"W>3/93
21/03/93 17/05/93 BUM 24700.34
0.00
31/05/93
Appendix XV (99) (1) (j)
/
| «Eu2B ANSBACHER LIM' ED

P.O. Box 807 Orand Cayman Mtlah Waal Indlaa
TalaptKHM Nc. 9—4663/4
^HILTON BOSS Talax CP306 Catta Addraaa Ooinnaaa
A/A5S
L J BMANcaaHOaMAMM
00001643 Ma I *
atarllo«
9/06/93 09/06/93 197019.33
197019.33
>0/06/93
cuuuoramum
Appendix XV (99) (l)(k)
ANSBACHER LIMITt )
P.O. Box M7 Orand Cayman British Waal Indlaa
Maphona No. 0—4683M
.ION BOSS Talax CP SOS CaMa Addfaaa OuWraaa
A/A39
L. J ACCOUNT HUMan aoooi643 »ua

MLNiaaaMNMM*N atarliac
SO/06/93 ayxiaOTPowwyo
633.44
17/07/93 30/06/93 Iotarast t o 30/06/93
16/07/93 33/07/93 IB10113.00 9396.79
106009.06
pl/07/93
Appendix XV (99) (1) (1)
ANSBACHER LIM' ED
P.O. Box 667 Grand Cayman Mttih W*at tndlaa
Talax CP 306 Cabla Addraaa Oulnaan
HAMIIOCN BOSS 00. UXRH)
A/A55
J ACCOUNT MUM—I 60001643 MI 6
30/ 9/93 166,066.66

7/10/93 7/10/93 38,066.68
31/10/93 31/10/93 to 31/10/93 3,239.35
v3 1 / 1 0 / 9 3 c««ao>onw*«o 1S3,23».3S
Appendix XV (100) O'Reilly Aerlod (Ireland) Limited
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
O'Reilly Aerlod (Ireland) Limited.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Diarmuid Carpendale dated 8 November

2001.
b) Companies registration details in respect of O'Reilly Aerlod (Ireland)

Limited.
c) Letter of 22 January 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
d) Cheque dated 18 January 1991 in favour of O'Reilly Aerlod Limited.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 8TH NOVEMBER 2001
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: HIS HONOUR JUDGE SEAN 0'LEARY
MS. MACKEY BL
Administrator
to the Inspectors: MR. T. SLEVIN
Interviewee: MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE

I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. D. CARPENDALE JUDGE 0'LEARY
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 8TH NOVEMBER 2 001:
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Good morning.
6 MR. CARPENDALE: Good morning. This is
7 the last place in the
8 world I ever expected to be but that is besides
9 the point.
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. Mr. Carpendale,
11 my name is Sean O'Leary.
12 I am one of the four Inspectors. Ms. Noreen Mackey,
13 on my right, is the second of the four Inspectors.
14 The other two Inspectors are not dealing with this
15 particular matter. So, it is just the two of us
16 at our meeting this morning.
17
18 It is a very informal procedure except under the
19 legislation the evidence has to be given on oath.
20 MR. CARPENDALE: No problem.
21 JUDGE O'LEARY: So, I would ask Mr. Slevin
22 to administer the oath on
23 our behalf.
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY JUDGE 0'LEARY:
5 1 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Mr. Carpendale, the
6 position is that we
7 are investigating the affairs of "Ansbacher",
8 which is a company that was previously called
9 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and had a few other
10 similar names as well.
11
12 One of the jobs which we have been asked to do
13 by the High Court is to find out who the customers,
14 the Irish customers, of "Ansbacher" were.
15
16 The purpose of discussing this matter with you here
17 today is to try to solve a mystery that has being
18 puzzling us for some time.
19
20 Before I ask you about the specific thing, the
21 letter which you already have, and the information
22 you already have could I just find out from you
23 some details? You were, Mr. Carpendale, I think
24 involved in the air transport business, is that
25 not correct?
27 2 Q. And you were with Mr. O'Reilly, is that correct?
28 A. I was with Jackie O'Reilly for ten years.
29 3 Q. Yes?
5
1 A. Around ten years.
2 4 Q. And the business was sold, Mr. Carpendale, is
3 that correct?
4 A. Mr. O'Reilly sold the business; yes, he did.
5 5 Q. Yes?
6 A. In I think -- I can't remember the exact year.
7 6 Q. About 198 ... (INTERJECTION) ?
8 A. 1986 I think it was.
9 7 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Or... (INTERJECTION) .
11 8 Q. It would be before that I would say really?
12 A. 19...(INTERJECTION).
13 9 Q. However, he sold it some years before he died
14 any way, did he?
15 A. He sold it about five years before he died.
16 10 Q. Yes. Did you go with the new organisation?
17 A. Yes, I arranged the sale actually.
18 11 Q. Yes. Did you?
19 A. Yes.
20 12 Q. Yes. To Mainport Holdings in Cork?
21 A. To Irish Mainport Holdings who were at that stage
22 owned by Clyde Shipping in Scotland.
23 13 Q. Yes. Irish Mainport Holdings purchased I think
24 the business rather then the company, is that not
25 correct?
26 A. They purchased the goodwill and trading operation.
27 14 Q. Yes. They did not purchase the business?
28 A. Absolutely not.
29 15 Q. The Company?
6
1 A. No.
2 16 Q. The Company subsequently went into liquidation?
3 A. Yes, exactly.
4 17 Q. And was wound up in the normal way?
5 A. Exactly.
6 18 Q. All right. You worked then for the new company
7 which was called...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. O'Reilly Aerload Ireland Limited.
9 19 Q. Yes, with the Ireland being the additional portion?
10 A. Exactly.
11 20 Q. Yes. You worked in a capacity for them under the
12 Mainport Holdings' banner if you like?
13 A. Exactly.
14 21 Q. And then Mainport Holdings sold it back to the
15 Management, is that correct?
16 A. They sold it back to the Management, yes.
17 22 Q. Including yourself?
18 A. Including myself.
19 23 Q. At what stage did that happen?
20 A. 1989 I think it was. I could be wrong in that.
21 I am not too good on my dates these days but
22 I always -- it was after a long period of
23 negotiations.
24 24 Q. I see. About 1989?
25 A. 1989.
26 25 Q. In fact I think to put the matter...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. It was August 1989 I think.
28 26 Q. Yes. O'Reilly Aerload Ireland Limited was
29 established in 1985?
7
1 A. Exactly.
2 27 Q. So, that would seem to suggest that you were
3 right in your 1985 date?
4 A. That is what I thought, yes.
5 28 Q. Yes. You think about 1989 then it
6 was...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. In 1989 there was a -- we did a Management buy-out.
8 29 Q. Yes. Who was involved in that?
9 A. You had Des Turvey, Gerry Cohen.
10 30 Q. Just one second now?
11 A. Sorry.
12 31 Q. Des Turvey?
13 A. Yes.
14 32 Q. Yes?
15 A. Des Turvey who was the Secretary and Financial
16 Director.
17 33 Q. Yes?
18 A. You had Gerry Cohen.
19 34 Q. Gerry?
20 A. Cohen, C-o-h-e-n.
21 35 Q. Yes?
22 A. You had Tony Kiernan.
23 36 Q. Yes?
24 A. You had Dan Cullinane.
25 37 Q. Yes.
26 38 Q. MS. MACKEY: Cullinane?
27 A. Cullinane, yes.
28 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes.
29 A. And you had a Bill Hennessy.
8
1 39 Q. Yes, and yourself?
2 A. And myself.
3 40 Q. Okay. Were you equal partners?
4 A. No, I owned 37% of the shareholding. The rest
5 were broken down in various tens and fourteens.
6 I couldn't give you the exact...(INTERJECTION).
7 41 Q. I know. However, you were if you like the biggest?
8 A. I was the major shareholder at 37%.
9 42 Q. At 37%. You were the man that was actually
10 operating the business?
11 A. I was the man who was the Managing Director of
12 the business, yes.
13 43 Q. Yes, yes. I think Mrs. O'Reilly has given us
14 evidence on the basis of information which she
15 had that one of the difficulties that arose was
16 that in the original transfer of business money
17 was still coming in for the benefit of O'Reilly
18 Aerload Limited?
20 44 Q. Which was processed by you and lodged to their
21 account, is that correct?
22 A. That is correct and then we did a settlement.
23 45 Q. And did a settlement. I understand?
24 A. We did a settlement after about three months.
25 46 Q. All right. That is grand. So, that was one of
26 the on-going things?
27 A. Yes.
28 47 Q. In that settlement did O'Reilly Aerload Ireland
29 Limited, after the three months, acquire all
9
1 remaining outstanding debts, did they?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 48 Q. Yes. So, I could safely say that from the
4 beginning of 1990 onwards all O'Reilly Aerload
5 Limited debtors were now belonging to O'Reilly
6 Aerload Ireland Limited?
7 A. Yes, except for one thing.
8 49 Q. Yes?
9 A. In that period Mr. Jackie O'Reilly still held on
10 to some refunds that were coming from airlines.
11 50 Q. Yes. Mr. O'Reilly held on to refunds from airlines?
12 A. From airlines.
13 51 Q. All right, okay?
14 A. For about a three month period.
15 52 Q. All right, okay. You have seen the document which
16 we sent to you?
17 A. Yes, I have.
18 53 Q. And this relates to 1991?
19 A. Yes.
20 54 Q. And attached to it there is a -- this is page
21 6 and 7, Mr. Slevin. Have you copies of that?
22 A. No, I haven't but I have seen them all.
23 55 Q. You might give them to Mr. Carpentdale (Same
24 Handed), Exhibit 1?
25 A. Thank you. Yes?
26 56 Q. Were you the Managing Director of O'Reilly
27 Aerload...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. Ireland Limited.
29 57 Q. Ireland Limited at that stage?
10
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 58 Q. And what do you think about that letter?
3 A. This was a matter that was handled by our
4 Financial Director Des Turvey.
5 59 Q. Yes?
6 A. It was an arrangement that he had that bonuses were
7 paid to the Directors in this method.
8 60 Q. What method was that?
9 A. The method that we were dealing with a company
10 called Boardman Air Services in London.
11 61 Q. Yes?
12 A. And they paid us on about six times a year.
13 62 Q. Yes?
14 A. And Christmas bonuses and things like that were
15 handled by this method of receiving this cheque
16 (indicating) and I think Mr. Turvey had set up
17 an arrangement. I cannot remember the name.
18 I think I mentioned it in my letter -- of
19 Business & Enterprise Services. I think
20 it was Clyde Road where they operated.
21 63 Q. Yes?
22 A. And he processed this for us and we obviously
23 were avoiding tax at that stage.
24 64 Q. Yes, I understand that and really that is not
25 a matter for me at all?
26 A. Yes. But -- yes.
27 65 Q. So, you think the money was given by your Financial
28 Director to a man who operated out of Clyde Road?
29 A. Yes, Jack Stapleton was the gentleman.

1 66 Q. Jack Stapleton?
2 A. Yes. I am absolutely -- I know that happened.
3 67 Q. Well, now we have a name that is a slightly
4 different name to that. It is Jack Stakelum?
5 A. That is it.
6 68 Q. Is that it?
7 A. Forgive my...(INTERJECTION).
8 69 Q. Yes?
9 A. Because I never met the person, right?
10 70 Q. Yes?
11 A. Mr. Turvey handled all of these arrangements.
12 71 Q. However, you say in your letter that you recall
13 this cheque which he sent to Mr. Stapleton who
14 handles such matters for him,
15
16 "...and I think the name of the

company was Business Enterprises
17 in Clyde Road."
18
19 A. Yes, because I know it operated in Clyde Road.
20 72 Q. Yes?
21 A. Opposite the -- as far as I know it is opposite
22 the American Embassy.
23 73 Q. So, what used to happen is that the money used to
24 be given to Mr. Stapleton?
25 A. Exactly.
26 74 Q. Mr. Stakelum?
27 A. Yes.
28 75 Q. And drawn down as required?
29 A. Drawn down as required. I don't know -- actually
12
1 it used to be drawn down by Mr. Turvey as required
2 and distributed to the Directors.
3 76 Q. And distributed to the Directors?
4 A. Yes.
5 77 Q. And which of the Directors would have got that
6 money?
7 A. I would say every one of them.
8 78 Q. Yes. So, if I said Mr. Des Turvey?
9 A. Yes.
10 79 Q. Himself?
11 A. Yes, most definitely.
12 80 Q. Mr. Jeremiah...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. Cohen.
14 81 Q. Cohen?
15 A. Yes.
16 82 Q. Where does he live?
17 A. He lives in Swords.
18 83 Q. Yes?
19 A. In River Valley.
20 84 Q. Mr. Tony...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. Kiernan.
22 85 Q. Kiernan?
23 A. Yes.
24 86 Q. I see. Mr. Tony Kiernan. Mr. Dan Cullinane?
25 A. Yes, and Mr....(INTERJECTION).
26 87 Q. Who is Dan Cullinane?
27 A. He is from Limerick. What we had was we broke
28 our Management buy-out up into regions; Shannon
29 and Cork. Bill Hennessy was in Cork.
13
1 88 Q. Yes. So, you have Jeremiah Cohen. Gerard Anthony
2 Cohen I think is his name?
4 89 Q. Is that not correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 90 Q. You have Tony Kiernan?
7 A. Yes. Tony Anthony Kiernan as well I think
8 it is.
9 91 Q. He is Daniel Anthony Kiernan I think, is that
10 correct?
11 A. It could be. I am not sure.
12 92 Q. Yes. You have Cullinane. Daniel James Cullinane,
13 is that the man?
14 A. Yes.
15 93 Q. You have Diarmuid Mary Carpendale?
16 A. That is me.
17 94 Q. That is yourself?
18 A. Yes.
19 95 Q. You have William Oliver Hennessy?
21 96 Q. What about Finbar John McGrath?
22 A. He -- they were not -- they didn't join --
23 become Directors until later.
24 97 Q. Did they not?
25 A. No.
26 98 Q. So, he is out?
27 A. He is out.
28 99 Q. Kenneth Geraghty?
29 A. Out.
14
1 100 Q. Out?
2 A. Yes.
3 101 Q. So, you have Mr. Turvey, Mr. Kiernan,
4 Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Egan, Mr. Cullinane,
5 Mr. Cohen and Mr. Carpendale?
6 A. Exactly.
7 102 Q. Which of those knew about the system which you
8 have now described to me?
9 A. I would say very very few of them.
10 103 Q. Very few of them?
11 A. Very few, yes, because it was Des who set the
12 whole situation up.
13 104 Q. Yes. However, he obviously would have
14 consulted you as the Manager of the Firm?
15 A. We discussed it.
16 105 Q. Yes, the two of you discussed it?
17 A. Yes.
18 106 Q. Yes, yes. For how long did that last;
19 that system?
20 A. I would say for three years.
21 107 Q. Three years, is it?
22 A. Yes.
23 108 Q. Around that time, three years?
24 A. Two to three years.
25 109 Q. Yes. You said in your letter that you were
26 going to discuss the matter with Mr. Turvey?
27 A. Mr. Turvey refuses to take my telephone calls.
28 110 Q. Does he?
29 A. Yes.
15
1 111 Q. Yes, I see. So, obviously you have not
2 really...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. I have contacted him on four occasions in
4 Finnegan Menton and he just...(INTERJECTION).
5 112 Q. Yes, yes?
6 A. He was to arrange to meet me but...(INTERJECTION).
7 113 Q. It never ever transpired?
8 A. It never transpired.
9 114 Q. All right. You did mention to us in the letter,
10 or I think it may have been in a telephone
11 conversation that you mentioned it, the
12 reference DT102875?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 115 Q. What is that?
15 A. I thought that -- I will explain to you.
16 116 Q. Yes?
17 A. Mr. Turvey came to us -- I will give you a
18 little bit of background, right?
19 117 Q. Yes?
20 A. Because...(INTERJECTION)?
21 118 Q. Yes?
22 A. He came to us as Financial Controller in
23 Jackie O'Reilly's day.
24 119 Q. Yes?
25 A. Because he was a personal friend of Jackie's
26 solicitor Liam McGonagle.
27 120 Q. Yes?
28 A. And he was a great friend of I think it was
29 Rue Leonard and all those people in Guinness
16
1 & Mahon.
2 121 Q. Yes?
3 A. And as far as I am aware Des was looking after
4 various matters, that I was oblivious to but
5 was conscious of, for various people.
6 122 Q. Yes?
7 A. Because I think he used to handle the financial
8 affairs of Liam McGonagle.
9 123 Q. Yes?
10 A. And I just always remember Des telling me that
11 he operated on a number system.
12 124 Q. Yes?
13 A. And that is (indicating) what I assumed was Des's
14 number to be very honest with you.
15 125 Q. Yes, I see?
16 A. Because he used to usually work -- Des was one
17 of the people -- I used to start very early in
18 the morning. Dessie always worked between five
19 and seven o'clock in the evening but I think he
20 was still handling -- at that stage he was
21 still a Director of Finnegan Menton.
22 126 Q. I see. So, he was involved in a lot
23 of...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. He was involved in a lot of...(INTERJECTION).
25 127 Q. Of businesses at that stage?
26 A. A lot of business at that stage.
27 128 Q. All right. That is very good. However, you
28 have little doubt that this was the Christmas
29 bonus money?
1 A. I have no doubt in my mind whatever.
2 129 Q. All right. That is grand.
4 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE BY
5 JUDGE O'LEARY:
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
18
1 JUDGE O'LEARY: Have you any questions?
2 MS. MACKEY: Just one.
4 MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
5 MS. MACKEY:
7 130 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Carpendale, you
8 understood at this
9 stage that what Mr. Turvey was doing was he
10 was giving these funds to Mr. Stakelum?
11 A. Yes.
12 131 Q. What was your understanding of what Mr. Stakelum
13 was doing at that time?
14 A. Well, we -- I will explain to you the series.
15 132 Q. Yes?
16 A. The previous year we had made substantial profits
17 and we had paid an absolute fortune in corporation
18 tax because the rate at that stage was absolutely
19 ridiculous.
20 133 Q. Yes?
21 A. And we discussed how in God's name we could get
22 away from paying so much corporation tax. We
23 actually borrowed money, which might sound crazy,
24 to pay the corporation tax.
25 134 Q. Yes?
26 A. And it really bankrupted the Company over a period
27 of time.
28 135 Q. Yes?
29 A. I knew Des -- Des came up with this scenario that
19
1 he had -- through connections he had a very good
2 system of giving us money tax free which we all
3 accept was wrong, right?
4 136 Q. Yes?
5 A. But he made this arrangement then and he said
6 it was a very very good system. It was well
7 recommended.
8 137 Q. Yes?
9 A. And that was basically it.
10 138 Q. Yes?
11 A. That Mr. Stakelum, he said, ran a very good
12 company and I think it goes back to the days
13 of when Des used to be dealing with people in,
14 and whose names I have seen mentioned in papers
15 in the last few years, Padraig Collery and
16 people like that, Deloitte & Touche so --
17 139 Q. Yes. However, was it your understanding that
18 Mr. Stakelum was investing that money somewhere?
19 A. No, absolutely not. My understanding was that
20 Mr. Stakelum was -- I have got to be honest with
21 you, this might sound crazy, I never asked the
22 question about Mr. Stakelum.
23 140 Q. Right?
24 A. I just knew that when we needed a Christmas
25 bonus...(INTERJECTION).
26 141 Q. He was looking after it any way?
27 A. He was looking after it.
28 142 Q. Right.
29 143 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: On your behalf and on
20
1 behalf of the Company?
2 A. On behalf of the Company.
3 144 Q. MS. MACKEY: In other words as far
4 as you were concerned
5 Mr. Stakelum had the money and what Mr. Stakelum
6 did to manage it was...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Was...(INTERJECTION).
8 145 Q. You were...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I have got to say was absolutely...(INTERJECTION).
10 146 Q. You left it to him?
11 A. Was none of my business.
12 147 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I have got to say I didn't have a clue what
14 he was doing with it.
15 148 Q. Right. That is grand. That is grand.
16 A. Right.
17 JUDGE 0'LEARY: That is fine.
18 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much,
19 Mr. Carpendale.
20
21 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. DIARMUID CARPENDALE BY
22 MS. MACKEY:
23
24 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Mr. Carpendale, thank you
25 very much indeed.
26 MR. CARPENDALE: Not at all.
27 JUDGE 0'LEARY: And could I thank you
28 very much for the manner
29 in which you have dealt with us. It has explained
21
1 quite a lot to us and we really appreciate it.
2 MR. CARPENDALE: Has it?
3 MS. MACKEY: It has, yes.
4 MR. CARPENDALE: I hope it has.
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: We really appreciate it.
6 MS. MACKEY: That is grand. Thank you.
7 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much
8 indeed.
9 MR. CARPENDALE: That is no problem.
10 Thank you.
11
12 THE INTERVIEW THEN CONCLUDED.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
22
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IRION
O'REILLY AERLOD (IRELAND) LIMITED

Registration Details
COMPANY NAME O-RELLY AERLOD (IRELANO) LIMITED
PREVIOUS NAME
BUSINESS NAMES
REGISTERED NUMBER 109118
COMPANY TYPE PRIVATE LIMITED BY SHARES
COMPANY STATUS LIQUIDATION
HOLDING COMPANY Labae Limited
ULTIMATE HOLDING COMPANY
REGISTERED ADDRESS: TRADING ADDRESS:
HANOVER HOUSE Room 208, Cargo Tarmlnal,

8W89 SOUTH MAIN STREET Dublin Airport,
CORK. Dublin
TELEPHONE 018444183
FACSIMILE 01 8444282
ACTIVITIES Tha transport of cargo by air.
Financial Details
INCORPORATED 14/08/1985 MDEBTEDNESS AT LAST AR ANALYSED
SHARE
IRP LAST AR PILED 15/07/1902
CAP.CURRENCY
ISSUED SHARE
179000 LAST AR REGISTERED 19/07/1 »«2
CAPITAL
AUDITORS Haughay Boland Daioitta a Touch*,
Earltfort Tairaca,
DUBLIN
BANK All lad lrlah Bank Ptc
SORTCODE
Liquidator / Examiner I Receiver Details

TITLE
TYPE OF APPOINTMENT
APPOINTED 01/03/1999
CEASED
NAME EDMONO P. CAHILL

GRATTAN COURT
29/31 WASHINGTON STREET
CORK
Mortgage Details
MORTGAGE
SATISFACTION Not Satisfied
TYPE LETTER OF SET OFF
CREATION 17/05/1988
REGISTERED 06/08/1988
CURRENCY IRISH POUNDS
AMOUNT DUE No Fixed Amount SpaelfM
AMOUNT SECURED ALL SUMS NOW DUE OR HEREAFTER TO BECOME DUE FROM THE COMPANY TO
THE PERSON(S) E
PERSON ENTITLED ALLIED IRISH BANKS PLC
BANKCENTRE BALLSBRIDGE DUBLIN 4
MORTGAGE 2
SATISFACTION Not Satisfied
TYPE A DEBENTURE
CREATION 12/10/1987
REGISTERED 30/10/1987
CURRENCY IRISH POUNDS
http,.//www.irion.ie/mernbers/details.asp?id»gmlfymxdbajbbih 12/11/01
IRION
Page 2 o f 2
AMOUNT DUE No Flxad Amount SpacMM
AMOUNT SECURED
™ S°E 0 R HEREAFTER TO BECOME DUE FROM THE COMPANY TO
THE rtR30fl(SJ E
PERSON ENTITLED ALLIED IRISH BANKS PLC
BANKCENTRE BALLSSRIDOE DUSUN 4
Members Details
COMPANY SEC Mr. Dasmond Edwin Turvay
DIRECTORS Mr. Daamond Edwin Tutvay
Mr. Kenneth Geraghty
Mr. Flnbar John McOrath
Mr. DanM Anthony Neman
Mr. William Ollvar HannaMy
Mr. Brandan Patrick Egan
Mr. Danial Jamaa Culllnana
Mr. Gerard Anthony Cohan
Mr. Dlarmuld Mary Carpendale
Document History (Latest 15)

E4 • Uquldatora Affidavit A 3.906 Accounts
RECEIVED 18/10/2001 EFFECTIVE 31/08/2001
E4 - Uquldatora Affidavit A S.306 Account*
REGISTERED 30/08/2001 EFFECTIVE 28/02/2001
E3 • Liquidator* Accounts Of Action* * Oaallngs
E3 - Liquidator! Accounts Of Actions <• Deatlnga
E3 - Liquidator* Accounts Of Actions ft Dealings

E4 - Liquidators Affidavit A S.306 Accounts

E4 - Liquidators Affidavit A 8.306 Accounta

REGISTERED 2I/0M20Q0 EFFECTIVE 2U02/2000
E4 - Uquldatora Affidavit A S.308 Accounts
E4 • Uquldatora Affidavit A S.308 Accounts

E4 - Uquldatora Affidavit a S.308 Accounta

A highly detailed c o m p a n y profile can b e ordered from C F I Online,

^ Click here
While historically accurate, users should be aware that company records

may have changed as a result of the recent filing of documents at the
Companies Registration Office. For an up to date report, CFI ONLINE
recommends that a full company search should be completed.
©Copyright CFI Online Limited 1999
http://www.irion.ie/membcrs/details.asp?id-gmlfymxdbajbbih 12/11/01
Appendix XV (100) (l)(c)
Ansbacher Limited
A Htmbcr oftht Henry Ambmdwr HoUUngs PLC Merchant Banking Croup
Please reply to: P.O. Box U7. Giand Cayman, British Wat Indies
Phone: (809) 949-4633/4
42 Fitrwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Fax: (809) 949-7946
(109) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
22nd January, 1991

Gareth Logan, Esq.,
Irish Intercontinental
91 Merrion Square Bank Limited'
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Gareth,
Could you please arrange to lodge the enclosed cheque for
Stg.£6,284.50 to the credit of Ansbacher Limited Account
No. 01 087/02/81.'.
Yours sincerely,
or ANSBACHER LIMITED
/AJW
/
•• '"'llAjjOIBJI
...... y^vpp^ro'Biign
r • •
y -i—»•• •
> '• ^ * • ?I nriiiiiTi 2Sf< - 'CjSSSS; v.'ifiJ.lr. - :
BARCLAYS
or order
Ij^yiais^r-ô ' |
"RVICES > L T D
6 ^jEo^Ng
IRECTOR
fc
)
V •!<• V
» • .'•".••'•••U.'W.I
*»• %
V
Appendix XV (101) Mr Dermot O'Reilly-Hyland, deceased
Dermot O'Reilly-Hyland.
a) Extract of Central Bank Report into Guinness and Mahon as at 30 April

1978.
b) Internal Guinness and Mahon document entitled 'balances as at 17 August

1982'.
c) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 18 April 1977 - JD Traynor to

GB.
APPENDIX TEN TO EXAMINATION REPORT AS AT 30 APRIL 1978
MAJOR LOANS BACKED BY "DEPOSITS" HELD IN CAYMAN/GUERNSEY TRUST
COMPANIES
Bomwar Loan Balaaca Chrtrtaadlag at Dapoatt OOUwra

MAprtl 1971 Cayaan Gaarway
ft 2 1
M4.W7 [47,967
B A L A K C 1 8 AS AT lTM A P 0 P S T. IfljEtt
D. O'Bellly-Hjrland
5
Sterling Loan 107,843.95 Dr.
Sterling Loan 20,818.88 Dr.
Sterling Current Account 8,188.78 Dr.
IBS Loan 52,057.87 Dr.
jJKl P O S I T B I L i l C i a AS AT 1TW A P O P 8 T. 1982
) " •'. '

: 10?>848«S8Cr.
»fl» 20,818.88 Cr.
"J3" 8,188.78 Cr.
"13" 108,488.70 Cr.
-o—o—o—o—o—
r*
J.D.T. to C.B. 18th April, 1977.
a*: D«rmot O'Beilly-Hyland

G.R.A, Shares
* u E t b *F to our discussion today I not* that it in fact

I.C. who wrote to ae on the 13tb April.
X s» attaching hereto the Share Certificates covering an o m
would be grateful if you would
JDT/AJW
• Certificates already handed to you. 'fa
GUINNESS ft MAHON LTD. UMtT ro»

INTtMST HATi •« J
CHAi GES I N S T A T I C DATA CftfOIT 111
ACCOUNT NO. OATC D»WT>Atr*«Ct
Wl |
INTWUT RATI
-
NAME Cf ACCOUNT
DtUT
INTMUT RATI
CHANCCS AUTHOKTMCTIR
CUDIT (l>
1HT1MJT RATI J
MOT8S-
MHITT
CMOIT |1> *
OMIT rOSTINO
INHItlTOft -1
US
Appendix XV (102) Mr Ken O'Reilly-Hyland
Ken O'Reilly-Hyland.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Ken O'Reilly-Hyland dated 22 June 2000.
b) Extract from appendix 3 of Central Bank Report into Guinness and Mahon
as at 30 April 1978.
c) Letter of 24 December 1986 - MJ Pender to BA Ursell.
d) Letter of 11 May 1990 - Martin Lanigan O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.
e) Undated letter of guarantee addressed to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Extract from Central Bank report into Guinness and Mahon.
g) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 29 April 1986.
h) Guinness and Mahon statement of 5 May 1986 re GMCT.
i) Guinness and Mahon statement of 29 April 1986 re Guinness and Mahon

a/c no 03274004.
j) Summary of a/c no 101751506 1985-1986.
k) Letter of 29 July 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
1) Telefax of 22 March 1994 - JA Furze to IIB.
m) Notes to the accounts re GMCT and subsidiary companies.
n) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 17 January 1989.
o) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 25 January 1989.
p) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 26 January 1989.
q) Statement of Ken O'Reilly-Hyland dated 21 June 2000.
r) Telex of 19 May 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.

Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Ken O'Reilly-Hyland.
a) Letter of 11 December 2001 - Whitney Moore & Keller Solicitors to

Inspectors.
b) Letter of 15 January 2002 - Whitney Moore & Keller Solicitors to

Inspectors.
c) Letter of 22 Februaiy 2002 - Whitney Moore & Keller Solicitors to

Inspectors.
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF
MR. KENNETH P. O'REILLY-HYLAND
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 22ND JUNE 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY B.L.
SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS
INTERVIEWEE: MR. KENNETH P.
O'REILLY-HYLAND
REPRESENTED BY: MR. RICHARD LAW NESBITT
S.C.
INSTRUCTED BY: MR. GERARD CARROLL
WHITNEY MOORE & KELLER
WILTON PARK HOUSE
WILTON PLACE
DUBLIN 2.
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 22ND JUNE 2000
5 interview now,
6 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. I will introduce myself, I am
7 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. As
8 you know, we have been appointed Inspectors by the
9 High Court. I should explain to you, as I am sure
10 your legal advisors have already explained to you,
11 this is not a Court, it is not a Tribunal, it is an
12 interview. If in the course of the interview you
13 wish to consult your legal advisors, please tell us
14 and we will stop asking you questions and you can
15 discuss the matter with your counsel and solicitor.
16 If during the course of the questions your legal
17 advisors wish to advise you on any matter, they can
18 indicate the same to us and we will stop asking you
19 questions.
20
21 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, the evidence will be taken
22 under oath and I will ask our solicitor now,
23 Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath to you.
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MR. O'REILLY-HYLAND HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS EXAMINED,
2 AS FOLLOWS, BY THE INSPECTORS
4 MR. NESBITT: Perhaps I could just
5 indicate that
6 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland is under compulsion.
7 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Of course, we understand.
8 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, I
9 would like to begin this by referring you to a
10 document that I know you are familiar with, it is a
11 report of the Central Bank about the loans that
12 Guinness & Mahon had made up to 30th April 1978,
13 Tab 4 in our documents. (SAME HANDED) (Exhibit 1).
14 You see this is Appendix 3 to the Central Bank
15 report, it is the top ten loans of 30th April 1978
16 and it shows at no. 7:
17 "K.P. O'Reilly-Hyland
Beresford Investment Limited -
18 £616,000."
19
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I do, Judge, I do indeed.
22 2 Q. That is used and that is the company with which you
23 were associated?
24 A. That is me, but first I heard of this company was
25 last October.
26 3 Q. We will move on then. Do you see the next page, it
27 says:
28 "K.P. O'Reilly-Hyland
Beresford Investments Limited -
29 £616,023."
4
1
2 It shows then that they have a loan to you, a no. 1
3 account, a no. 2 account and a current account, it
4 shows the total and then it shows Beresford
5 Investments. Then it analyses your loans of
6 £416,467. It says:
7 "The No. 1 account is secured by an

identical deposit held with the wholly
8 owned subsidiary of Guinness Mahon
Dublin in the Cayman Islands."
9
10 Could you explain that to us, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland?
11 A. Well, Judge, first of all, until last October I
12 never heard of Beresford Investments.
13 4 Q. Leave aside Beresford for the moment, just your own
14 personal loans.
15 A. I certainly never hypothecated any of my Trust
16 monies to Guinness & Mahon, never, ever.
17 5 Q.
"No. 1 account is secured by an
18 identical deposit with the wholly owned
subsidiary."
19
20 What does that mean, do you think?
21 A. I would assume that there was a deposit in Guinness
22 Mahon Cayman Trust Company Limited.
23 6 Q. It was used as a security for the loan?
24 A. No.
25 7 Q. Is this wrong then?
26 A. This is not correct.
27 8 Q. I see.
28 A. It is quite incorrect.
29 9 Q. If you just look at the next page, page 79. (SAME

1 HANDED) (Exhibit 1). This says at H:
2 "Loans Backed by deposits
3 The bank engages in two types of loan

under this heading:
4 (1) Normal back-to-bank lending,
(2) Lending back-to-back the bank has
5 the security of a deposit where... .
6 (1) Back-to-Back Loans.

These loans in total amount to
7 approximately..."
Q
o
9 It gives the total.
10 "The major loans are..."
11
12 Then it gives one company and then you, £580,000; is
13 that correct?
14 A. That is not correct, Sir. I never had a
15 back-to-back loan.
16 10 Q. Do you see that the backing deposits are held in the
17 Cayman Islands, is that incorrect?
18 A. That is not correct. Any facilities I have from
19 Guinness & Mahon were backed by securities in
20 Ireland.
21 11 Q. And not by any use of a deposit?
22 A. Not by any use of a deposit in Cayman.
23 12 Q. Or anywhere?
24 A. Or anywhere else.
25 13 Q. I am sure, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, you are familiar
26 with the evidence that has now been in the public
27 domain about the way in which what have been called
28 the Ansbacher Deposits, that is to say deposits of
29 the Cayman subsidiary in Ireland were used as

1 security for loans. Are you aware of that from
2 the...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. Yes, I have read this, Judge, and I am aware of it.
4 14 Q. What was your understanding of what was going on?
5 A. Well, I don't know what was going on, but the first
6 time I saw my name mentioned in this was at the
7 Moriarty Tribunal.
8 15 Q. I just want to leave that aside for the moment, your
9 own personal involvement which we will come to
10 later. I want to find out your understanding now of
11 the use of Guinness & Mahon in Ireland and the
12 deposits which their subsidiary had in Dublin as
13 security for loans, did you know about this?
14 A. No, and they weren't authorised by me.
15 16 Q. Have you learned about it since?
16 A. Only since the Moriarty Tribunal.
17 17 Q. What is your understanding of what was happening?
18 A. My understanding is that Mr. Traynor has said and
19 written things which were false and untrue.
20 18 Q. Tell me what he said was false and untrue?
21 A. We have it here; "the major loans involvement
22 back-to-back, K.P. 0'Reilly-Hyland £580,000," that
23 is not true.
24 19 Q. That loans to you were not secured by either a
25 deposit that was held in the Cayman Islands or a
26 matching sum that was held in Dublin in the name of
27 Ansbacher?
28 A. No.
29 20 Q. You say it was not true?

1 A. No. Judge, may I assist here by saying there is a
2 schedule of securities backing any facilities I have
3 had.
4 21 Q. Pardon, there is a schedule of securities?
5 A. Yes .
6 22 Q. Were you aware of the evidence that has been given
7 and I think has been given in the public also,
8 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, of the use of the phrase in the
9 internal memoranda of Guinness & Mahon of the phase
10 "suitably secured," have you come across that
11 phrase?
12 A. I have come across that in the recent past, very
13 recent past.
14 23 Q. Is it your understanding that the Guinness & Mahon
15 Credit Committee and Board of Directors used that
16 phrase to indicate that the loan was secured by an
17 Ansbacher deposit?
18 A. That is what I have learned in the recent past.
19 24 Q. You did not know that before?
20 A. I did not know that before.
21 25 Q. You say that this is incorrect, this information
22 that the Central Bank have. You say that it was
23 Mr. Traynor who gave it to them and that he was
24 untrue, it was untrue?
25 A. Quite untrue, yes.
26 26 Q. It would not only have been Mr. Traynor who would
27 have been misleading the Central Bank, it would have
28 been the Board of Guinness & Mahon; would it not?
29 A. I would say Traynor and others. Who those others

1 were I don't know.
2 27 Q. Others in Guinness & Mahon?
3 A. Others in Guinness & Mahon, yes.
4 28 Q. Am I not correct, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, that the
5 Central Bank were investigating the activities of
6 this company, this subsidiary and had asked for
7 explanations from Guinness & Mahon about it and
8 actually had interviews with representatives from
9 Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. So I learned on 9th March this year, Judge.
11 29 Q. You did not know that before?
12 A. I did not know that.
13 30 Q. I suggest to you a possibility, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland,
14 namely, that in fact these loans were secured in the
15 way we have been discussing but without your
16 knowledge, is that possible?
17 A. Entirely.
18 31 Q. So they were being secured but you accept they were
19 secured but without your knowledge, is that it?
20 A. Well, if they say they were secured, I don't know
21 how true it is, but I lodged deposits with Guinness
22 Mahon Dublin for secure facilities I got from them.
23 They had no authority whatsoever to use my Trust
24 funds in the Caymans to secure any loan in Dublin or
25 anywhere else because, Judge, this is meant as a
26 hedge against Lloyds.
27 32 Q. Sorry?
28 A. This Trust fund was meant as a hedge against Lloyds.
29 33 Q. We will come to that in a moment. I want you to

1 look at another document, it is an internal (Exhibit
2 2) memorandum in Guinness & Mahon dated
3 24th December 1986. (SAME HANDED). It is from
4 M.J.P to B.A. Ursell
5 "Dear Bruce
6 As requested, I list hereunder

particulars of accounts for which we
7 hold backing deposits with GMCT..."
9 He gives the list.
10 Then at B:
11 "Resident accounts for which we hold

deposits from GMCT to be hypothecated.
12 C.P. O'Reilly-Hyland - £493,296.38."
13
14 Just let's take it in stages. This is clearly a
15 statement by the writer of this memo to Mr. Ursell
16 that your loan was secured by a deposit which was
17 duly hypothecated in the Cayman Islands, that is
18 what it says; is it not?
19 A. That is what it says and that is not true either.
20 34 Q. Just let's get what you are telling us,
21 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. Are you saying that what the
22 author of this memorandum has stated is a lie?
23 A. What the author of this states is what somebody else
24 has told him. The whole purpose of having this long
25 standing Trust was that it stood alone.
26 35 Q. I will come to that later, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland.
27 What I am suggesting to you is that these documents
28 show that these deposits were used in the way
29 suggested. Are you denying that they were used in
10
1 the way suggested?
2 A. I think these deposits according to these papers
3 were wrongfully used.
4 36 Q. I understand now what you are saying. You are
5 accepting that the bank used them but they used them
6 wrongfully, is that what you are saying?
7 A. Largely because I have no option. This is what the
8 document says, but they had no authority from me.
9 37 Q. That is what I want to find out, what your
10 suggestion is. They had no authority to use this,
11 but you are now accepting, are you not,
12 Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland that these documents indicate
13 that this use was made of these deposits but you are
14 saying it was without your authority?
15 A. That's correct.
16 38 Q. Very well. Do you see the figures that I have been
17 quoting to you from these accounts, they show loans
18 in the region of £616,000 in the Central Bank report
19 and in the other report loans of £493,000. These
20 figures are correct, I take it? These are the
21 amounts of the loans that you had then?
22 A. I don't know because this is the first time I have
23 seen these. Certainly I had nothing to do with
24 Beresford as far as I am aware.
25 39 Q. Sorry?
26 A. I don't know because this is the first time I have
27 seen these figures.
28 40 Q. It is a long time ago, but you are not suggesting
29 that the figures are wrong; are you?
11
1 A. Conversely, Judge, I am not suggesting they are
2 right either because I have not seen them before.
3 Beresford Investment, I know nothing of that.
4 41 Q. Doing the best you can is that the sort of figures
5 you were borrowing from Guinness & Mahon at that
6 time?
7 A. It could be.
8 42 Q. It could be, yes. I just want to show you another
9 document, page 41 and 42. (Exhibit 3) (SAME
10 HANDED). This is a letter by Mr. Martin
11 Lanigan-0'Keeffe to Mr. Traynor in May 1990 and he
12 says :
13 "Dear Des
14 I refer to your letter of 17th April.

The attached schedule sets out the
15 account details requested as at 31st
March 1990.
16
I have discussed this briefly with
17 Padraig, but if there are any queries
perhaps you would let me know."
18
19 Then there is a list given. What I suggest to you
20 is that the list is a list of loans which were at
21 that time secured on deposits, Ansbacher deposits.
22 Do you see the figure of £200,000?
23 A. I do.
24 43 Q. Would that be about correct in 1990, do you think?
25 A. I don't know, Judge, but what I do know, Judge,
26 looking at this sheet is the sterling loans to my
27 daughter Aislinn and my son Kenneth, those were not
28 loans, those were guarantees for Lloyds. They were
29 not money and we paid 1% per annum. They were
12
1 definitely not loans.
2 4 4 Q. Were your daughter Aislinn and your son Kenneth
3 subscribers at that time in London and they were
4 guarantees, were they?
5 A. They were guarantees on which we paid 1% per annum.
6 45 Q. Who gave the guarantee?
7 A. Guinness & Mahon.
8 46 Q. What security did Guinness & Mahon require for the
9 guarantee?
10 A. It was on my Irish assets which were quite
11 considerable. It was only £70,000 between the two
12 of them.
13 47 Q. So it was secured. The guarantee that Guinness &
14 Mahon had given for your daughter and son was
15 secured but you think it was not on an Ansbacher
16 account?
17 A. Quite sure it wasn't.
18 48 Q. I want to refer you to some other documents and it
19 is on the same topic, page 86. This is a guarantee
20 that you gave (Exhibit 4):
21 "In consideration of your placing at

the disposal of Beresford Investments
22 Limited... (Hereafter referred to as
"Principals", a loan facility of
23 £72,500, seventy-two thousand, five
hundred pounds) on terms andconditions
24 set out in your letter addressed to you
to the principals. We the undersigned
25 L.G. McGonagle, K.P. 0'Reilly-Hyland,
J.D. Traynor, J.J. Finnegan,
26 S. Stephenson and Arthur Gibney hereby
guarantee to you..."
27
28 There is a guarantee there and it is signed over the
29 page then.
13
1 A. I am just checking, Judge, that this was a guarantee
2 from Guinness & Mahon?
3 49 Q. Sorry?
4 A. This was a guarantee from Guinness & Mahon, was it?
5 50 Q. It is a guarantee for the loan that Guinness & Mahon
6 were giving to Beresford Investments?
7 A. I know that it is fashionable today, Judge, to have
8 occasional amnesia but I don't remember that.
9 51 Q. Let's take it in stages. Mr. McGonagle, the
10 solicitor.
11 A. I knew him very, very well.
12 52 Q. Was he acting as your solicitor?
13 A. Yes.
14 53 Q. At the time?
15 A. Yes.
16 54 Q. Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland then is next. Mr. Traynor, did
17 you know Mr. Traynor?
18 A. Indeed I did.
19 55 Q. That was in 1970?
20 A. Yes.
21 56 Q. Mr. Finnegan?
22 A. Yes.
23 57 Q. Who was Mr. Finnegan?
24 A. Finnegan Auctioneers.
25 58 Q. Stephenson and Gibney?
26 A. Yes.
27 59 Q. You knew them?
28 A. Yes.
29 60 Q. Would you turn over to page 88. (Exhibit 5) (SAME
14
1 HANDED). This is another part of the Central Bank
2 report. It is Beresford Investments £199,556 and
3 this is much later, this is 1978.
4 "Mr. K.P. O'Reilly-Hyland has the

majority shareholding in this company."
5
6 Is that correct?
7 A. I don't think so, I am not positive about it.
8 61 Q. Sorry?
9 A. I am not positive about it, Judge, because I have
10 never heard of any company Beresford Investments
11 although I have signed a guarantee for it. I am
12 totally baffled by this.
13 62 Q. You say you never heard of it?
14 A. Yes, I am totally baffled by it.
15 63 Q.
"The purchase of property comprises of
16 warehouses and some office space in
Capel Street area."
17
18 Were you involved in a development?
19 A. No, I developed no property in Capel Street.
20 64 Q. Then the information in this report is completely
21 wrong then in your view. Did you have any financial
22 arrangements with Mr. McGonagle, Mr. Traynor,
23 Mr. Finnegan and the architects?
24 A. Yes, we had been in Fitzwilliam Lawn Tennis Club and
25 various properties.
26 65 Q. Developing?
27 A. We built a tennis club.
28 66 Q. It was a development company, was it?
29 A. Beresford?
1 67 Q. No, the company that developed Fitzwilliam.
2 A. Yes, was called Malborough Holdings.
3 68 Q. Malborough Holdings?
4 A. Yes .
5 69 Q. Did you have other developments with this same group
6 of people? Was it the same group of people that is
7 named there in Beresford Investments?
8 A. It is the same group, yes, the same group.
9 70 Q. Then you had other developments outside Fitzwilliam,
10 where else did you develop?
11 A. Fitzwilliam only as far as I know.
12 71 Q. Did you not have other joint ventures with these
13 others ?
14 A. Not with these people.
15 72 Q. Can you give me any explanation why the Central Bank
16 report would be wrong then about this company?
17 A. I honestly can't, Judge. Firstly, I don't remember
18 Beresford Investments. Secondly, in a situation
19 like this it is most unlikely that anybody would
20 have a majority shareholding. Thirdly, if
21 Mr. Traynor embarked on this exercise, it would be
22 wearing his New Ireland hat of which he was a
23 director at the time, I think. I think this may
24 have been part of Fitzwilliam, but I have no
25 recollection of Beresford Investments. I certainly
26 never developed any property in Capel Street.
27 73 Q. The signature to the guarantee is your signature, is
28 it not (Exhibit 4)?
29 A. It is, yes.
1 74 Q. So you signed this?
2 A. I did.
3 75 Q. But you cannot recollect it?
4 A. I can't, mind you it is a long time ago. How many
5 years ago is it?
6 76 Q. This was signed 30 years ago.
7 A. It certainly is my signature and such a consortium
8 did exist, but it existed for a different purpose.
9 77 Q. Why I am drawing your attention to it is if you go
10 back to the Central Bank report at C (Exhibit 5):
11 "The loan is 100% secured by deposit

balances held with a wholly owned trust
12 subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon in the
Cayman Islands."
13
14 You know nothing about that?
15 A. Nothing at all, Sir.
16 78 Q. Who was the principal person in this group of people
17 that were involved at that time in 1970 with you?
18 Was it Mr. McGonagle, was it the architects, was it
19 Mr. Finnegan or was it Mr. Traynor? Who was the
20 active person in the group?
21 A. I will explain, if I am not taking up too much time,
22 what happened, Judge. What happened was Basil
23 Goulding made a bid for Fitzwilliam Lawn Tennis Club
24 which backed on to a property owned by Sam
25 Stephenson and Arthur Gibney. I think both of those
26 gentlemen said to Des Traynor, 'you know, this is
27 such a good site that we should put a consortium
28 together for this because there is another site on
29 Appian Road.' I think John Finnegan helped to put

1 this site together on Appian Road which contained
2 some residential housing in poor condition and the
3 idea was to do a swap of a finished tennis club.
4 79 Q. I do not want to stop you Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, you
5 are telling me about the development that you had
6 with these gentlemen and I understand it, but I am
7 not concerned with that. I am concerned with the
8 other developments that you might have undertaken
9 with these other gentlemen, can you recall other
10 developments ?
11 A. I don't think I have undertaken any others with
12 these gentlemen for a variety of reasons, Judge,
13 including clash of personality.
14 80 Q. The clash of personality was not with Mr. Traynor?
15 A. Not at that stage.
16 81 Q. I want now to deal with another matter entirely and
17 that is the payment to you in April 1986 of a sum of
18 £75,000 and I want to show you some documents in
19 relation to it; pages 31, 32, 33 and 34. (SAME
20 HANDED). This was in 1986 and the first document is
21 an internal Guinness & Mahon memo of 29th April
22 1986, and it is £75,000 to the Bank of Credit &
23 Commerce, Leadenhall Street, London, account K.P.
24 0'Reilly-Hyland and then the account in the Marbella
25 branch. Do you remember getting a transfer of
26 £75,000 (Exhibit 6)?
27 A. Frankly, no. If I did, I am wondering what I did, I
28 don't remember it.
29 82 Q. The documents show that you had an account in the
18
1 Bank of Credit & Commerce in Marbella, did you?
2 A. No.
3 83 Q. Did you have any sums at all in any London bank and
4 in Marbella?
5 A. The only London bank I think I had a current account
6 balance were two; I had an account with Guinness &
7 Mahon in London, a current account. I also had a
8 small petty cash account in Barclays Bank at
9 160 Picadilly.
10 84 Q. So you had an account in Guinness & Mahon in London?
11 A. That is my understanding.
12 85 Q. If you just turn to the ledger accounts (Exhibit 7)
13 that we have given you. You see the £75,000 is
14 debited in the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
15 deposit from subsidiary of a sterling account on
16 that date, 24th April. There is a very indistinct
17 photostat of a Guinness Mahon & Company London
18 account -- sorry, the London bank, Guinness Mahon &
19 Company showing its account with the Dublin
20 subsidiary Guinness & Mahon Limited and it shows
21 there a debit of £75,000. Do you see that, do you
22 see your name (Exhibit 8)?
23 A. I do, I see it, Judge, and I see the name Edmund
24 O'Reilly-Hyland. I don't know what that has to do
25 with it.
26 86 Q. Is he a relation of yours?
27 A. He is, he is a nephew of mine.
28 87 Q. That is £50,000, but your name is above that at
29 £75,000?
1 A. All I have is paid cheques, £50,000.
2 88 Q. Page 33, have you got page 33 (Exhibit 7)?
3 A. I am looking at the wrong one. (SAME HANDED).
4 89 Q. This is difficult to read. Do you see the top
5 there, "Guinness Mahon & Co., that is the London
6 bank.
7 A. Yes .
8 90 Q. Do you see on the left-hand side the name of the
9 account holder is Guinness & Mahon Dublin, current
10 account. That is the Dublin branch?
11 A. Yes .
12 91 Q. Do you see three quarters of the way down, and it is
13 very hard to make it out, but you can see Mr. K.P.
14 0'Reilly-Hyland £75,000 and underneath that Edmund
15 0'Reilly-Hyland; do you see that?
16 A. I don't to be quite honest about it.
17 92 Q. We will give you a highlighted one. (SAME HANDED).
18 Do you see now, that they are debiting?
19 A. How much are they debiting here?
20 93 Q. £75,000.
21 A. Is that the £75,000 that is supposed to have been
22 sent to me in Marbella?
23 94 Q. Yes. Then the next document is a Dublin bank,
24 Guinness & Mahon Dublin. It is their sterling
25 account, their Nostro account and the transfer of
26 £75,000 is credited in their Nostro account. What I
27 am suggesting to you is that you got £75,000 and it
28 was charged on the Ansbacher account in Guinness &
29 Mahon in Dublin (Exhibit 8)?

1 A. I knew nothing about an Ansbacher account until the
2 recent past.
3 95 Q. I know that and I know what you are telling me, but
4 I am suggesting to you that these documents show
5 that you got £75,000 and show how it was treated in
6 the bank's records.
7 A. I don't know what the treatment of the account was,
8 Judge, but I thought that my assets situation would
9 stand £75,000 quite easily. How Ansbacher could
10 come into it, I just don't know.
11 96 Q. Can you remember getting the £75,000?
12 A. No.
13 97 Q. You cannot?
14 A. No.
15 98 Q. I want to come to a further sum of money in relation
16 to the payment of Stg£350,000 in July 1991. (SAME
17 HANDED) (Exhibit 10). This is in July 1991, this is
18 is a letter. It is signed by Mr. Traynor and you
19 will see it is headed "Ansbacher" and it gives the
20 address of Ansbacher in the Cayman Islands. Then it
21 says :
22 "Reply to Fitzwilliam Square."
23
24 It is a letter to the IIB and it says:
25 "Would you please arrange a transfer of

the sum of Stg £350,000 to the current
26 account of Paul H. O'Reilly-Hyland at
Hong Kong, Shanghai Bank Corporation in
27 Hong Kong..."
?R
z, o
29 It gives the account number.
21
1 "The funds should be placed on Tuesday
6th August. The debit should be to
2 Ansbacher Limited call deposit
account..."
3
4 It gives the number of the call deposit account. I
5 will deal with the details of this letter in a
6 moment, Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, but could you just tell
7 me about the payment to your son of this sum?
8 A. Yes, Judge, I can do that. Some time in the early
9 1990's when we were extremely short of money to pay
10 these enormous Lloyds debts, I thought we should
11 start using this Trust which Guinness & Mahon had.
12 It was based in Cayman to keep it out of the reach
13 of Lloyds and that we should make a withdrawal from
14 that. He said to me...(INTERJECTION).
15 99 Q. Who?
16 A. Traynor said to me, 'we should pay a capital
17 dividend, not to you, but to one of the other
18 beneficiaries.' I explained to him how our Lloyds
19 position worked and this is precisely how it worked.
20 My daughter Aislinn shared her share with her sister
21 Elsbeth. My son Kenneth shared his share with Paul
22 and Mummy and I used our shares to keep the family
23 going. Now at this time when we were very short of
24 money again, we asked for this money and he said,
25 'no, the way to do this is to pay it by way of
26 capital dividend' or capital something 'through Paul
27 0'Reilly-Hyland in Hong Kong and you can make your
28 own arrangements with him.'
29 100 Q. First of all, where was Paul living?
22
1 A. Paul had just left Hong Kong and he had moved to New
2 York, but I don't think he moved his banking
3 facilities at that time.
4 101 Q. So you discussed the situation with Mr. Traynor and
5 as a result of that a sum of Stg£350,000 was paid to
6 your son Paul?
7 A. That's right.
8 102 Q. What did he do with it?
9 A. He sent it back to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.
10 103 Q. Into whose account?
11 A. To my account.
12 104 Q. What sort of account was this? Was it a resident
13 current account?
14 A. A resident current account, a normal domestic
15 account.
16 105 Q. What did you do with the £350,000?
17 A. Paid Lloyds. I paid Lloyds, Judge.
18 106 Q. So out of the money that was in Cayman you paid
19 Lloyds?
20 A. Yes, in part, there wasn't enough to pay the full
21 Lloyds bill.
22 107 Q. I want to refer to another payment. Sorry, I should
23 have finished with the July 1991 arrangement. Can
24 we just go back to this letter that I referred you
25 to from Mr. Traynor. Have you got it there (Exhibit
26 10) ?
27 A. Yes, I have it, Judge.
28 108 Q. Whilst the money went to Paul and then came back to
29 you when you paid Lloyds with it, can I just draw
23
1 your attention to what happened in here in Dublin.
2 First of all, this money came from the Irish
3 Intercontinental Bank, do you see this letter
4 (Exhibit 10)?
5 A. I do, Sir.
6 109 Q. It came from the Ansbacher Limited call deposit
7 account and it gives a number, is that right?
9 110 Q. The IIB transferred Stg£350,000 to Hong Kong and
10 this amount was debited to the Ansbacher account?
11 A. Yes. May I make a point, Judge?
12 111 Q. Sure, yes.
13 A. It is the first time I have seen any correspondence
14 about Ansbacher. It is the first time I have known
15 the Irish Intercontinental Bank to have any input.
16 I thought it came direct from Guinness & Mahon.
17 112 Q. I appreciate that you did not know how the transfer
18 was made, but is it not clear that the transfer was
19 made by deducting this sum from the Ansbacher
20 account and there was a corresponding deduction then
21 in the monies that you held in Cayman?
22 A. That's right, the Trust money.
23 113 Q. The Trust money?
24 A. Yes, the Trust money.
25 114 Q. We will come to that. I want to refer you to
26 another memo. This memo is signed by John Furze and
27 it is headed a "Trust Group." The photostat is
28 quite bad. It is from the Cayman Islands. First of
29 all, had you met Mr. Furze (Exhibit 11)?

1 A. No, I had not.
2 115 Q. Do you see it is from John Furze and it is to the
3 Irish Intercontinental Bank. It is for the
4 attention of Mr. Redmond and the date is in 1994 and
5 then:
6 "Would you please transfer

GBP£161,376.29 to Guinness & Mahon Ltd,
7 College Green, Dublin 2, Ireland for
the account of Kenneth P.
8 O'Reilly-Hyland by order of Paul M.
O'Reilly-Hyland for value 31 -03-94.
9
Please advise Guinness & Mahon to
10 notify their client of this transfer.
Debit our own account 02/01087/81."
11
12 Do you remember getting this sum of Stg£161,376?
13 A. No, I do not, Judge, neither would my son Paul have
14 my authority to give any such order to anybody.
15 116 Q. It would be a simple matter, would it not, to find
16 out was that sum transferred into your account in
17 Guinness & Mahon Dublin, can you do that for us?
18 A. Yes, Sir, I will indeed and I shall talk to my son
19 Paul, if I may quote this document?
20 117 Q. Of course.
21 A. Because he would have told me, he had no authority.
22 The only person with authority who kept the whole
23 thing was Mr. Traynor. Des Traynor would advise the
24 Trustees or the Trustees would advise him. He made
25 a big who-ha about this, Judge. My son Paul had no
26 authority and wouldn't do anything of this sort.
27 118 Q. I will come to it but as you have raised it now, did
28 any of your family also have Trusts?
29 A. No.
25
1 119 Q. Your son Paul did not have any Trust?
2 A. No.
3 120 Q. And none of your other children?
4 A. No.
5 121 Q. Were they beneficiaries under the Trust?
6 A. Yes.
7 122 Q. As a beneficiary your son would have no authority to
8 make this order?
9 A. He would have no authority.
10 123 Q. You will find this out for us, will you,
11 Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland?
12 A. I most certainly will indeed. May I take this?
13 124 Q. Yes, indeed.
14 A. Thank you. I am quite shocked by this.
15 125 Q. Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, we usually adjourn around about
16 this time for a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, so we
17 might do that for ten minutes.
18
19
20 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)
21
22 126 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will resume now,
23 Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland. I
24 just want to ask you a few questions about a company
25 to which you made some reference, that is Malborough
26 Holdings Limited.
27 A. Yes.
28 127 Q. That was the company that developed Fitzwilliam?
29 A. That's right.
26
1 128 Q. Am I not correct in saying that it also developed
2 other property also?
3 A. No, I know that you must be thinking of Telephone
4 House.
5 129 Q. Yes.
6 A. It was another Malborough company and I can't
7 remember whether it was Malborough Estates or
8 Malborough something, but that did develop that and
9 there were two people primarily involved in that;
10 myself and Liam McGonagle, my solicitor. That was
11 about the middle 1960's. The company you refer to
12 as Malborough Holdings, I think it is called, which
13 was a separate company was part of Fitzwilliam Lawn
14 Tennis Club and there was another one I think called
15 Fitzwilliam Plaza. There was quite a few companies
16 in that.
17 130 Q. I just want to know the development that you have
18 referred to took place in the 1960's?
19 A. That's right.
20 131 Q. Malborough Holdings in fact was a subsidiary of
21 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, was it not?
22 A. No.
23 132 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited owned shares in
24 Malborough Holdings Limited?
25 A. Not that I know of. I thought it was New Ireland.
26 133 Q. If we look at page 98. (SAME HANDED). (Exhibit 12)
27 these are notes to the account of Guinness Mahon
28 Cayman Trust Limited and subsidiary companies, and
29 you will see three investments held by a subsidiary
27
1 Malborough Holdings Limited of £120,000?
2 A. I don't think I have the right page.
3 134 Q. Page 98. Sorry, you have the wrong page, page 98.
4 (SAME HANDED). Do you see investments held by a
5 subsidiary Malborough Holdings Limited of £120,000?
6 A. I do.
7 135 Q.
"The investment in Malborough Holdings
8 Limited Company Incorporated (Ireland)
represents 12% of the equity of that
9 company."
10
11 Did you not know that?
12 A. No, I thought it was New Ireland.
13 136 Q. Mr. Traynor was involved in Malborough Holdings, was
14 he not?
15 A. He was, but I thought he was wearing his New Ireland
16 hat.
17 137 Q. Did that company carry out any further developments
18 to your recollection?
19 A. Not to my recollection.
20 138 Q. Very well. I want to bring you back to a point that
21 we discussed before the break and that was the way
22 in which loans to you by Guinness & Mahon were
23 secured. I want to refer you to certain internal
24 documents of Guinness & Mahon, pages 65, 66 and 67.
25 (SAME HANDED). Do you see this is an application to
26 the Credit Committee of Guinness & Mahon in Dublin
27 in 1989. It refers to you and it refers to the
28 security. Do you see the three paragraphs numbered:
29 "1) Title deeds of 67 Nutley Avenue.
28
1 2) Shares in McDonagh Boland Ltd
2 3) Security is adequate for £310,000."

(Exhibit 13)
3
4 139 Q. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do. May I point out, Judge, an error in
6 items 1 and 2 of the same paragraph?
7 140 Q. Yes, what is the error?
8 A. It was 67 Nutley Road and it was sold for £430,000
9 and the shares in McDonagh & Boland were also sold
10 for £430,000.
11 141 Q. Maybe what they were sold for is different to the
12 valuation that was placed?
13 A. This is a valuation which they put upon it.
14 142 Q. Very well. This is their valuation, the bank's to
15 the Credit Committee and the security is adequate
16 for £310,000. If you turn over the page then, this
17 is the Minutes of the Credit Committee and this is a
18 decision in relation to your loan.
19 "The Submit.
20 1) An explanation of Return on the

capital figure is required.
21
2) Further information on 67 Nutley
22 Avenue required... .
23 3) Is 3 the sum of 1 & 2 or is

this 'adequately backed' to the
24 extent of £310,000 in addition"?
25
26 They are an seeking explanation for the phrase
27 "adequately backed" and that is given at no. 3 in
28 the preceding page and if you look at the next
29 memorandum it deals with this (Exhibit 15).
29
1 "The security held is firstly the title
deeds of the property in Nutley Avenue.
2 The property is held in Trust.... It
does have a tenant but even so Dublin
3 are fairly sure that this £150,000 is a
very conservative estimate of the
4 value. There are the private company
shares with an estimated value of...
5 And thirdly, "adequate security" valued
at £310,000. Dublin are therefore
6 looking at a total security which they
value at a minimum of £610,000."
7
8 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, you did not know anything about
9 this, but I just want to indicate to you what these
10 documents mean. It means that the bank regard the
11 phrase "adequate security" as not just the two
12 securities in no. 1 and no. 2 but something else in
13 addition, £310, 000. I am suggesting to you,
14 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, from the evidence we have that
15 when the bank refers to loans being "adequately
16 secured" they mean secured by an Ansbacher deposit.
17 I take it you know nothing about this?
18 A. Absolutely nothing, Sir.
19 143 Q. Would you mind taking the statement you gave us
20 (Exhibit 16), Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, I would like to
21 go through it with you. You say in 1963 you were a
22 member of Lloyds and then you took advice from
23 Mr. Clifford Turner and approximately £100,000 was
24 paid into a Trust fund in the Bahamas. Who was
25 Mr. Clifford Turner?
26 A. They are now Clifford Chance, they are a law firm in
27 London.
28 144 Q. So you were advised at this stage by a law firm in
29 London?
30
1 A. I would go further, Judge, if I am not taking up too
2 much time. It took me some years to join Lloyds
3 because the whole trick of joining Lloyds was to be
4 able to chose your syndicates, so I was friendly
5 with a man called Bob Waldron, Waldron Scarman, that
6 would be Scarman Lesley L.J., so I was dealing with
7 people of high reputation. Bob Waldron said to me,
8 'if you want to, and you must do this, have an
9 offshore Trust because there are no stop loss and
10 you and your family could end up bankrupt. You must
11 do what most people are doing and that is have an
12 offshore Trust. I will introduce you to Clifford
13 Turner' as they were then and Clifford Chance as
14 they now are. The man I dealt with in doing this,
15 is now a very elderly man, the Honourable David
16 Nicholson, now Lord Carnock. The whole thing was
17 set up very neatly and very properly.
18 145 Q. I just want to ask you about your professional
19 advisors. Your professional advisors were English
20 solicitors?
21 A. Yes.
22 146 Q. The Trust that was set up in the Bahamas, have you a
23 copy of that Trust Deed?
24 A. No, I gave all the information which I got from
25 Clifford Turner to Guinness & Mahon about 1966 or
26 1967.
27 147 Q. The question I am asking is have you a copy of the
28 Trust Deed?
29 A. No.
31
1 148 Q. Where would it be, do you think?
3 149 Q. Do you mean that you gave a copy of the Trust Deed
4 to Guinness & Mahon?
5 A. No, I had an original and a counterpart. The
6 original, I think, was with the attorneys in the
7 Bahamas who were Trustees, whose name I have
8 forgotten, and my counterpart I gave with a large
9 file to Guinness & Mahon.
10 150 Q. When was that?
11 A. I would guess late 1960's, 1966 or 1967.
12 151 Q. When you moved your funds to Cayman, is that it?
13 A. About that time. If I may explain why I did this,
14 Judge?
15 152 Q. I will come to that in a moment,
16 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. Do you remember was it a
17 discretionary trust?
18 A. I don't really know what a discretionary trust is to
19 be frank. It was a Trust to prevent myself, my wife
20 and children being pursued by outside claims from
21 Lloyds.
22 153 Q. I know the object of the Trust. You do not remember
23 whether it was a discretionary trust, whether the
24 Trustees had a discretion or not as to how the funds
25 that were given to them were to be used?
26 A. I understood the Trustees were all powerful.
27 154 Q. Do you remember signing a letter of wishes?
28 A. I certainly remember wishes, the signing of the
29 letter I don't remember, but I do remember being
32
1 asked wishes. Whether I wrote them or signed it, I
2 probably did.
3 155 Q. Were you advised that if a discretionary trust is
4 set up, that the settlor may write a letter of
5 wishes to the Trustees?
6 A. I do remember something about wishes, yes, I do.
7 156 Q. Whatever form of Trust that was established in the
8 Bahamas took, you were able to organise that it was
9 wound up and that the funds were transferred to
10 Cayman?
11 A. I didn't do that, Guinness & Mahon arranged the
12 whole thing.
13 157 Q. But they did it?
14 A. They did it.
15 158 Q. Presumably they did it in a perfectly legal way?
16 A. I have no doubt about that.
17 159 Q. In relation to that, when you decided to move the
18 funds and take up the suggestion that you would move
19 to the Cayman Islands, did you have any professional
20 advice here in Ireland? Did you have your solicitor
21 Mr. McGonagle or anyone?
22 A. No.
23 160 Q. Did you have any tax consultant advising you?
24 A. No.
25 161 Q. Just on that topic, dealing now with the end of the
26 1960's and early 1970's, was Mr. McGonagle your
27 solicitor then?
28 A. He was.
29 162 Q. Did he remain so then up to his death?

1 A. He did.
2 163 Q. Did you have an accountant looking after your tax
3 affairs ?
4 A. I did.
5 164 Q. Who were they?
6 A. In 1948 I made my first return through D.J. Kennedy
7 & Company who subsequently became Kennedy Buckley
8 back then, who subsequently became Butler Chance,
9 who subsequently became Deloitte & Touche.
10 165 Q. They have been your accountants all the time?
11 A. All the time, for over 50 years.
12 166 Q. In relation to the arrangements that were made with
13 Guinness & Mahon and the Cayman Island Trust, you
14 did not consult them at all?
15 A. No.
16 167 Q. I have drawn your attention to the fact that you had
17 signed this guarantee with a number of persons, one
18 of whom was Desmond Traynor in 1970, so you must
19 have known Mr. Traynor in 1970 (Exhibit 4)?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 168 Q. How long would you have known him for?
22 A. Obviously 1970. I met him very briefly in Haughey
23 Boland. It was politic to give some work to Haughey
24 Boland, which I did, and I met him in a very
25 perfunctory way. It was a very small account. They
26 were not my personal accountants.
27 169 Q. That is how you met him first?
28 A. Yes .
29 170 Q. You think that was in early 1970 or so?

1 A. No, I think in Haughey Boland I would guess about
2 1968.
3 171 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Traynor the movement of
4 funds to the Cayman Islands?
5 A. I thought it was John Guinness and an English man
6 because I think it was done by the London office, I
7 think.
8 172 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was not incorporated
9 until 1971.
10 A. Then it must have been 1971 perhaps.
11 173 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, the Trustees of the
12 Trust.
13 A. I will tell you why I think it was the late 1960's.
14 I found having this Trust in the Bahamas expensive
15 because it didn't generate enough income to pay the
16 Trustees secretarial fees and I would have thought
17 it sooner, but obviously if it was not incorporated
18 until 1971, then it must have been that.
19 174 Q. Do I understand your evidence that the Trustee of
20 the Trust was Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?
21 A. I thought the Trustee was Guinness Mahon, Dublin.
22 175 Q. Do you remember signing a letter of wishes in
23 relation to this document?
24 A. No. If I signed one, the only wishes I can recall
25 were the originals ones.
26 176 Q. You do not remember signing a letter of wishes in
27 relation to this one?
28 A. I don't. I may have, but I think it is unlikely
29 that I did.
35
1 177 Q. Where is this document, where is the deed?
2 A. The original deed which has served throughout was
3 the one given to Guinness & Mahon in what I thought
4 was the late 1960's.
5 178 Q. Where is it now?
6 A. I assume in Guinness & Mahon.
7 179 Q. Did you ever get a copy of it?
8 A. No.
9 180 Q. Did you ever see it?
10 A. I think I saw it at some stage because I think I
11 signed it as a settlor.
12 181 Q. I wonder did you?
13 A. I am making an assumption, Judge.
14 182 Q. Yes, you are.
15 A. I assume I signed it.
16 183 Q. You do not remember, do you?
17 A. Not specifically, no.
18 184 Q. Why I say this, why I question you on it,
19 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland is that we have had evidence to
20 indicate that Trusts were established by Guinness &
21 Mahon, by residents in Ireland, but they were not
22 signed by the person who was supplying the funds,
23 but by somebody else as settlor and this could have
24 happened in your case?
25 A. I thought the original one they took as holis bolis
26 from the Bahamas to Guinness & Mahon and I thought
27 it was one Trust Deed which did for the lot.
28 185 Q. Are you saying to me that you have no recollection
29 of signing a second Trust Deed?
36
1 A. No, I haven't.
2 186 Q. A moment ago you said that the original deed was
3 with Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. Yes .
5 187 Q. Is this the one that was set up by the English
6 solicitors ?
7 A. That's right.
8 188 Q. Do you think you signed no second deed?
9 A. I may have, but I don't recollect it. I have a
10 recollection, Judge, about this which occurred to me
11 after I had been at the Moriarty Tribunal and it is
12 this; the Minister of Industry was a man called
13 George Colley and he got into a little of bother
14 trying to bring the Pfizer business to Ireland and I
15 was rather friendly with somebody in J.P. Morgans
16 and I was of some help to him there. Coming back on
17 the plane I was discussing this Trust Fund bearing
18 in mind that he was a solicitor before he became a
19 Minister, and I said to him, 'you know, I may want
20 to discuss this with somebody in Ireland' and he
21 said to me, 'do you know Gerald Sweetman' and I said
22 yes. He said, 'well, why don't you talk to him
23 about it,' but I never did.
24 189 Q. What was the relevance of that, Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland?
25 A. The relevance is that it had crossed my mind that
26 maybe I should have had an Irish lawyer but then I
27 was persuaded that it was not necessary.
28 190 Q. Who persuaded you?
29 A. George Colley was saying to me that I should get an
37
1 Irish lawyer.
2 191 Q. Who persuaded you it was not necessary to do so?
4 192 Q. Who in Guinness & Mahon?
5 A. It could have been John.
6 193 Q. Who?
7 A. It could have been John Guinness, but I am not
8 saying it definitely was.
9 194 Q. Could it have been Mr. Traynor?
10 A. I just don't recall because my principal contact
11 before Traynor was John Guinness. Without John
12 Guinness I wouldn't have been in Guinness & Mahon.
13 It could have been Traynor.
14 195 Q. You cannot assist then in relation to whether or not
15 a new Trust Deed was executed. Have you any
16 correspondence relating to the establishment of the
17 Trust?
18 A. No.
19 196 Q. Did you ever have any correspondence?
20 A. No.
21 197 Q. Would you just look at the fourth paragraph of your
22 statement (Exhibit 16) at the last sentence:
23 "A shelf company was allocated to me to

use, Newport Agencies Overseas
24 Limited."
25
26 Would you tell me about that?
27 A. They said to me...(INTERJECTION).
28 198 Q. Who did?
38
1 199 Q. Who in Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Probably Traynor said that my Trust company in the
3 Bahamas would be absorbed into their one. Newport
4 Agencies Overseas, which was owned by Guinness &
5 Mahon, it was not owned by me.
6 200 Q. You describe it as "a shelf company."
7 A. Well, that isn't my actual choice of words, it
8 should be a company.
9 201 Q. Whose choice of words is it?
10 A. I think, Gerry, was it somebody in the office who
11 used the word "shelf" there. It is unlikely that I
12 did, I think it is a company.
13 202 Q. This is your statement (Exhibit 16).
14 A. It is.
15 203 Q. Is this wrong?
16 A. I would presume that since I didn't incorporate the
17 company and I don't know who did, and it is a
18 curious name, so it is reasonable to assume it was a
19 shelf.
20 204 Q. Alright. What has that to do?
21 A. If it had been my company I would not have used the
22 word "Newport Agencies Overseas."
23 205 Q. What was Newport Agencies Overseas Limited to do?
24 A. It was to take over this Trust, that was its legal
25 identity.
26 206 Q. "A shelf company was allocated to me to use." How
27 were you to use it?
28 A. The answer is I didn't use it.
29 207 Q. How were you meant to use it? This is in your
39
1 statement, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland.
2 A. I wasn't meant to use it, it was an identification
3 for Guinness & Mahon as to what funds they were
4 putting into their subsidiary, Guinness Mahon Cayman
5 and to identify it as a Trust, they used a Trust
6 company.
7 208 Q. Now we have two companies; we have the subsidiary of
8 the Dublin company, Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
9 Limited and we have another company called Newport
10 Agencies Overseas Limited. Was this to be the name
11 of the Trust company?
12 A. That is so.
13 209 Q. Did you ever have any correspondence with Newport
14 Agencies Overseas Limited?
15 A. No.
16 210 Q. Did you ever receive any accounts from either
17 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited or Newport
18 Agencies Overseas Limited?
19 A. Yes, once.
21 A. I would say about 1983 or 1984.
22 212 Q. Where are they now?
23 A. I sent them back to Desmond Traynor because they
24 bore no relationship to my affairs.
25 213 Q. When did you do this?
26 A. Probably within a month or two of receiving them.
27 214 Q. So you got accounts once and you disagreed with
28 them, is that it?
29 A. Yes, I did.
1 215 Q. Did you tell Mr. Traynor that?
2 A. I did.
3 216 Q. Was the matter put right?
4 A. He said something like, 'Furze had got it all wrong
5 and, you know, it is a very simple thing, I will
6 give you what the balances are.'
7 217 Q. I beg your pardon?
8 A. He said, 'I will give you what the balances are.'
9 218 Q. Did he?
10 A. He did.
11 219 Q. Where are they?
12 A. He gave it to me on a piece of paper I have long
13 since destroyed or lost.
14 220 Q. Was that the only time that you got it from Cayman
15 Islands, an account from Cayman Islands?
16 A. No, this was given to me in Dublin from 17 College
17 Green by Mr. Traynor.
18 221 Q. By?
19 A. Mr. Traynor.
20 222 Q. Is that an account in the name of Newport Agencies
21 Overseas Limited or in the same of Guinness Mahon
22 Cayman Trust? How was the account identified?
23 A. I think the account, Judge, said what the balances
24 were, 'the balances in Cayman are X.'
25 223 Q. It was not headed in any way?
26 A. No, it wasn't.
27 224 Q. You disputed this?
28 A. Yes.
29 225 Q. Did you know that the funds in the Cayman Islands
41
1 were kept on deposit in the Cayman Islands?
2 A. Yes .
3 226 Q. In the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Bank? You knew
4 it was in the bank?
5 A. I assumed so, yes.
6 227 Q. For all those years your funds or the funds of the
7 Trust were on deposit?
8 A. I think so.
9 228 Q. They were never invested in any way?
10 A. No.
11 229 Q. You never discussed this or you never suggested they
12 should be invested in any way?
13 A. I was under the impression that I had no authority
14 to discuss it.
15 230 Q. You say in your statement that Mr. Guinness had said
16 to you that he had an excellent investment team and
17 would well advise the transfer of funds. They might
18 have been a very good investment team but they were
19 not investing your money in any way other than
20 leaving it on deposit.
21 A. That is what happened afterwards, yes.
22 231 Q. You accepted that, you did not...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. I didn't know much about this until three years
24 after I left the Central Bank. I was very careful
25 not to interfere with any banking operation
26 whatsoever.
27 232 Q. Three years after you left the Central Bank, when
28 was that?
29 A. I left in 1983, so it would be 1986.

1 233 Q. You then discovered that the money was on deposit
2 all the time?
3 A. Certainly some of the time.
4 234 Q. Not invested, that was the way it was all the time?
5 A. That is what I think, yes.
6 235 Q. If that is so, then the inducement to change from
7 the Bahamas to the Cayman Islands was not realised,
8 you were not getting a better return on your
9 investment, on the Trust funds?
10 A. No, that is not correct, Judge, because to keep the
11 money in the Bahamas was costing me money.
12 236 Q. I see.
13 A. I was told by Guinness & Mahon one of the
14 attractions, and they set up all this for me, was
15 there would be no charge or it would be absorbed by
16 the income over a period of years. That is what the
17 attraction was.
18 237 Q. You say in your statement that it was an "excellent
19 investment team."
20 A. That is what John Guinness said it was.
21 238 Q. Just return to the question of the accounts, if you
22 only got this one statement then in 1986 in Dublin
23 from Mr. Traynor which you understand came from the
24 Cayman, subsequently to that did you ever obtain any
25 accounts from Mr. Traynor?
26 A. No, but I got balances from him occasionally
27 verbally.
28 239 Q. So for all these years then from 1971 or whenever it
29 was this Trust was established in Cayman until 1994,

1 you never got any statement of account other than
2 once?
3 A. That's right.
4 240 Q. In writing?
5 A. That's right.
6 241 Q. How did you know how much was there?
7 A. He would either telephone me or send me a memo.
8 242 Q. What does sending you a memo mean?
9 A. It means 'cash, X pounds.' That is it.
10 243 Q. How often did that come?
11 A. It didn't say 'Dear Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland,' he tended
12 to give them to me when I met him.
13 244 Q. How often did it happen that you got a memo?
14 A. No more than once a year.
15 245 Q. More than once a year?
16 A. No more than once a year.
17 246 Q. Where would you meet him, Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland?
18 A. I have met him in Guinness & Mahon Bank. Very
19 frequently he said, 'I am having lunch in Jurys,
20 that is where you normally have your lunch each day,
21 so I will see you over coffee.'
22 247 Q. Did you ever go to Fitzwilliam Square?
23 A. I did, I went twice.
24 248 Q. So once a year or so you would get a statement or a
25 memo?
26 A. Yes.
27 249 Q. You never got anything in the nature of bank
28 statements, did you?
29 A. No.
44
1 250 Q. When the transfer took place, the funds that were in
2 the Bahamas Trust were transferred to the Cayman
3 Islands bank were on deposit in the Cayman Islands
4 bank?
5 A. Yes .
6 251 Q. It appears from your statement that you paid a sum
7 of approximately £100,000 into the Trust Fund
8 originally in 1964?
9 A. No.
10 252 Q. Paragraph 3.
11 A. That was £100,000 I paid in.
12 253 Q. It appears in the documents that I have been
13 referring you to that the Trust Fund was a great
14 deal more than that in the subsequent years?
15 A. It was and my understanding of it was that the
16 Trustees had pumped up the seed capital, the basic
17 settlement at £350,000 and that the lodgments which
18 they received from me which was my sterling income
19 with United Kingdom tax deducted at source, was
20 added to that by way of loan. I could have made
21 that loan final, I am told, just by a donation.
22 254 Q. I am not following you at all, could you take this
23 slowly. The original Trust was £100,000 in 1964?
24 A. Yes .
25 255 Q. I am pointing out to you that the Trust funds which
26 were on deposit in the Cayman were much more than
27 that?
28 A. Yes .
29 256 Q. I want to know how that came about.

1 A. Would you like to know source accounts?
2 257 Q. No, I do not. I just want very briefly did you
3 transfer funds to the Cayman?
4 A. Oh yes. Well, not to the Caymans, I gave them to
5 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin and they were sterling
6 funds.
7 258 Q. So you transferred sterling funds to Guinness &
8 Mahon in Dublin?
9 A. Yes .
10 259 Q. You told me that you had an account, a current
11 account in Dublin, it didn't go into this current
12 account?
13 A. No.
14 260 Q. They went into, you thought, a sterling account?
15 A. That is what I think.
16 261 Q. The funds then that you gave Guinness & Mahon were
17 funds from English sources?
18 A. That's right.
19 262 Q. You understood that these were to be part of the
20 Trust Funds?
21 A. Yes .
22 263 Q. You know now that the funds that you gave to
23 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin in fact end ended up in
24 the Cayman Islands, on deposit in the Cayman
25 Islands ?
26 A. Yes .
27 264 Q. Did you know then?
28 A. I did. I knew that the sterling money I gave them
29 was to be kept in sterling and it was to be added to
46
1 the Cayman Trust fund.
2 265 Q. So they were going to transfer it?
3 A. They were going to?
4 266 Q. They were going to transfer it?
5 A. Yes.
6 267 Q. Do you remember Mr. Traynor's death in May 1994?
7 A. I do.
8 268 Q. Had you terminated your relationship with Guinness &
9 Mahon before his death?
10 A. I terminated the Trust before his death.
11 269 Q. Did you?
12 A. I did.
13 270 Q. How did you do that?
14 A. I went to see him at Fitzwilliam Square and I said,
15 'now, I want these funds. What they are vitally
16 needed for is the winding up of Lloyds, the winding
17 up of Lloyds' balances.' I owe banks considerable
18 monies for paying off Lloyds.
19 271 Q. You have already referred to the fact that in 1991
20 you had got money from the Trust?
21 A. Yes.
22 272 Q. It had gone to your son and your son had given it to
23 you and you paid Lloyds?
24 A. That's right.
25 273 Q. Did you still owe further sums to Lloyds?
26 A. I owed them to banks who had supported me in Lloyds
27 and I think to Lloyds itself.
28 274 Q. You had debts to banks, is this what you are telling
29 me?
47
1 A. Oh yes, considerable debts.
2 275 Q. You required funds for this purpose?
3 A. Yes, and there was also, Judge, the feeling of
4 dissatisfaction with the way this Trust was being
5 run.
6 276 Q. The winding up of the Trust, how was that effected
7 or how was that done?
8 A. I don't know what the machinery was, but I said, 'I
9 want an end to all this. You have paid out the
10 £350,000 or part of the original capital you say
11 should be capital distribution to my son Paul and
12 the remaining balance I want paid back to Guinness &
13 Mahon in Dublin.'
14 277 Q. If you were not giving them the Trust funds, who was
15 going to get them?
16 A. I gave them to Guinness & Mahon and then I paid
17 Lloyds off and the other banks.
18 278 Q. So with the funds you got they were deposited in
19 your account in Guinness & Mahon?
20 A. That's right.
21 279 Q. You then transferred from your current account in
22 Guinness & Mahon the funds to pay off the debts you
23 owed in London?
24 A. That's right.
25 280 Q. When did that happen?
26 A. I reckon some time at the end of March 1994.
27 281 Q. The end of March 1994?
28 A. I would think so.
29 282 Q. What sums are we talking about?

1 A. In very broad terms sums of £250,000.
2 283 Q. I was asking you earlier about this sum of £161,000
3 that was paid on the order of your son by Mr. Furze
4 and you said you could remember nothing about it.
5 A. Nothing about it.
6 284 Q. That had nothing to do with the payment to you of
7 funds that were in the Trust which you then used?
8 A. No, it is in excess of what I stated. I will have
9 to check the bank statements now.
10 285 Q. The bank statements should show the transfer to you
11 of the funds from Cayman?
12 A. That's right.
13 286 Q. Which you had then transferred on, but in addition
14 this figure of £161,000?
15 A. That's right.
16 287 Q. The date being March?
17 A. Yes .
18 288 Q. The same time?
19 A. Yes .
20 289 Q. Very well, you can send those on to us,
21 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, when you have found them.
22 Perhaps you would tell me why you say you were
23 dissatisfied with the way in which the Trust was
24 being managed?
25 290 Q. I had spoken to other people who had trust funds in
26 London, there were trust meetings and my other
27 colleagues would meet with the trustees. It wasn't
28 just a question of a chap standing outside Jurys and
29 saying, 'you will know this, £312 in that' and
49
1 putting it back.
2 291 Q. Just to come back to your statement, the last
3 paragraph (Exhibit 1) on the first page:
4 "In the course of ... Mr. Traynor I

expressed a wish that the Trust be
5 wound up and that the Trustees would
make a distribution to the
6 beneficiaries. This, I believe,
occurred shortly afterwards."
7
8 The distribution was made to you?
9 A. Yes .
10 292 Q. Nobody else?
11 A. No, nobody else. My son Paul and myself were the
12 only beneficiaries.
13 293 Q. He did not get it, you got it?
14 A. He got the Stg£350,000 which he passed back to me.
15 294 Q. When you told Mr. Traynor then in March, shortly
16 before he died that you wanted to wind this up,
17 there was no problem at all in his arranging that
18 the funds would be put into your account in Guinness
19 & Mahon?
20 A. He seemed reluctant to put it into Guinness & Mahon.
21 295 Q. You asked him to do it and he did it?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 296 Q. When you say that your son Paul was the only
24 beneficiary, is that right? Were your other
25 children not beneficiaries of the Trust?
26 A. Well, they were, but he was keen to have it paid to
27 any one child. He didn't want to split it up.
28 297 Q. Who was keen?
29 A. Traynor.
1 298 Q. Traynor was keen?
2 A. Yes, he said, 'let's pay it to one child and that is
3 it. '
4 299 Q. The other beneficiaries in the Trust then were your
5 daughter and your other son?
6 A. That's right.
7 300 Q. They got nothing out of the Trust?
8 A. Nothing.
9 301 Q. On Mr. Traynor's suggestion?
10 A. Well, it is not quite that simple because I did pay
11 my sons Lloyds liability with what might have been
12 his share.
13 302 Q. Sorry?
14 A. I did pay my son Kenneth's Lloyds liability with
15 this money.
16 303 Q. With which money?
17 A. The money from Traynor to Paul.
18 304 Q. This is Stg£350,000?
19 A. Yes.
20 305 Q. This was a sum, as I understood it, that came to you
21 and you paid your debts. Are you telling me that
22 you also paid debts of your son Kenneth?
23 A. Kenneth, my wife and my daughter, I paid all those
24 debts.
25 306 Q. With the £350,000?
26 A. No, a great deal more.
27 307 Q. I am just asking about the beneficiaries of the
28 Trust?
29 A. They all got looked after in as much as the family
51
1 debt. They did participate in with the profits.
2 308 Q. You have to be a bit more accurate than that,
3 Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. Some of the £350,000 was paid
4 in the way you have described. You then wound up
5 the Trust in March 1990 and it was your debts that
6 were paid with the funds. I am just asking you were
7 all the other beneficiaries named in the original
8 Trust Deed, did they obtain no sum at all when it
9 was wound up?
10 A. No sum at all.
11 309 Q. When you took the decision in March 1994, did you
12 take any legal advice on this?
13 A. No.
14 310 Q. Did you consult with your tax advisors?
15 A. No.
16 311 Q. Have you any correspondence at all in relation to
17 this sum in the Cayman Islands?
18 A. No.
19 312 Q. Did you ever have any?
20 A. No. I may have had some memos some years previously
21 from Traynor, but when I retired at 65, which is ten
22 years ago, I was planning to move office in the late
23 1980's, a great deal of stuff was bluntly destroyed,
24 old bank statements from Provincial Bank,
25 AIB...(INTERJECTION).
26 313 Q. Sorry?
27 A. Old bank statements.
28 314 Q. You destroyed documents?
29 A. Oh yes.
2 A. About 1988.
3 316 Q. Would you have destroyed any documents that you had
4 then in relation to the funds in Cayman Islands?
5 A. Possible, quite possible.
6 317 Q. Since 1988 you would have got occasionally, once a
7 year or so, a memo from Mr. Traynor. Did you keep
8 those or did you destroy those?
9 A. I did keep them, and this sounds extraordinary, I
10 put them in my boiler house with another tea chest
11 and they got soaked in oil. I didn't regard them at
12 the time as very important.
13 318 Q. Are you saying that you had records, that you kept
14 some records and these have been destroyed?
15 A. Yes, unwittingly by the way.
16 319 Q. Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, the funds or the money that was
17 had been transferred to Cayman was on deposit in the
18 bank in Cayman and was earning interest. Did you
19 return that interest for tax purposes here in
20 Ireland?
21 A. Well, I never got any money from Cayman by way of
22 income, but I was supposed to get an offset of bank
23 interest in Dublin and I think I did.
24 320 Q. Is the answer to my question no, that you did not
25 return...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. No, I didn't.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, that
28 is all I wish to ask you.
29 Ms. Mackey would just like to ask you a few

1 questions.
2 321 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just to clarify a few
3 points that were not
4 totally clear to me, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. You
5 mentioned that after the Trust moved from the
6 Bahamas to Cayman, you made some further transfers
7 by transferring money to Guinness & Mahon. How did
8 you do that?
9 A. I wrote to Guinness & Mahon enclosing my Lloyds
10 cheques.
11 322 Q. Who did you write to in Guinness & Mahon?
12 A. I suppose in the early days John Guinness and in the
13 latter days or the middle days or the less early
14 days Desmond Traynor.
15 323 Q. So you would actually send the cheques to
16 Mr. Guinness or to Mr. Traynor?
17 A. Yes.
18 324 Q. Did you ever give Mr. Traynor any cheques on the
19 occasions when you met him to get statements?
20 A. No.
21 325 Q. There was one other matter I was wondering about;
22 when you were talking about the fact that the
23 Trustees in Cayman did not make any investments on
24 your behalf, you said that you felt you had no
25 authority to discuss this matter.
26 A. That's right.
27 326 Q. Then in 1994 you went to Mr. Traynor and you said
28 you wished the Trust to be wound up and the money to
29 be used for what it was originally intended that it
54
1 would be used for.
2 A. Yes.
3 327 Q. Had something changed in the meantime that made you
4 feel you could discuss it then?
5 A. First of all, we were facing this very large Lloyds
6 loss. The children were grown up, they were adult
7 people. I needed and all my family needed this
8 money to meet these debts.
9 328 Q. You also mention in your statement (Exhibit 1) that
10 at the time you wished to wind up the Trust you were
11 surprised that the balance was lower than you
12 expected it to be.
13 A. Yes.
14 329 Q. On that occasion Mr. Traynor told you what the
15 balance was?
16 A. Yes.
17 330 Q. Do I understand from the surprise that you expressed
18 there that on the previous occasion when you had
19 received a balance from him, it had been higher and
20 you had made no transactions in the meantime?
21 A. That was my understanding, but that might all be
22 answered by what I have been shown this morning for
23 the first time. That might be the answer.
24 331 Q. Are you referring to the document from Mr. Furze?
25 A. From Ansbacher in which, according to them, my son
26 Paul authorised a closing payment of £161,000.
27 332 Q. It is marked page 38 at the bottom right hand
28 corner, £161,376.29 (Exhibit 11)?
29 A. Yes, that might well be the sum which I thought I
55
1 was short. That might well be it.
2 333 Q. What I am really wondering, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, is
3 how you knew that you were short? What led you to
4 expect that there would be this extra sum of
5 £200,000?
6 A. I had a note from him the previous year which I gave
7 to Traynor and my recollection is that there should
8 have been nearer to £400,000, not £260,000.
9 334 Q. You gave this note to him at the occasion of this
10 meeting?
11 A. I did, yes.
12 335 Q. Did he offer you any explanation for this shortfall?
13 A. He said, 'you know there is something wrong here and
14 you must have got it wrong.' He was quite upset
15 about this one. I said, 'well, I am going to the
16 States myself this summer' and he said, 'no, I will
17 go down and I will investigate this with Furze.'
18 336 Q. Did anything come of that?
19 A. Nothing until this morning.
20 337 Q. Until this morning. You never heard again from --
21 well, Mr. Traynor died of course.
22 A. No, he died.
23 338 Q. You say you had a note which you showed him on that
24 occasion?
25 A. And gave to him.
26 339 Q. Was that the note he had given you of the previous
27 year?
28 A. No.
29 340 Q. This was your own note?

1 A. It was a note of my own.
2 341 Q. It was a note of what? Of a lodgment you had made?
3 A. It was a note of the last balance and what previous
4 cheques I had sent from London and there were small
5 cheques because I was retired then.
6 342 Q. Just to understand exactly what this was. This was
7 a note you had made of the last balance you had
8 received from Mr. Traynor, is that right?
9 A. The last balance, yes.
10 343 Q. So you had noted down the balance as Mr. Traynor had
11 given it to you plus some small cheques that you had
12 lodged in the meantime?
13 A. Yes .
14 344 Q. Those small cheques would have amounted in total to
15 about £200,000?
16 A. No. I am just trying to put my mind back on this
17 one, the balance according to him opening and
18 closing was £240,000 something.
19 345 Q. On this occasion?
20 A. Yes, this is in March 1994 and I thought that the
21 balance should be nearer £400,000.
22 346 Q. What I really want to find out is why you thought it
23 should be so much higher. The balance that he had
24 given you on the previous occasion
25 . . . (INTERJECTION) ?
26 A. The answer is I cannot recollect why I thought it,
27 but I did think it.
28 347 Q. Would it have been because you believed you had made
29 sufficient lodgments in the meantime to bring it up

1 to that figure?
2 A. I just don't know.
3 348 Q. Were you aware, Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, that your Trust
4 or the account that you held in Guinness & Mahon
5 relating to the Trust in the Ansbacher account was
6 coded A/D and A/Dl?
7 A. No.
8 349 Q. You are not familiar with that?
9 A. No.
10 350 Q. Could I ask you to look at a document, page 25
11 (Exhibit 17). (SAME HANDED). This is a telex sent
12 by Ru Leonard, now deceased, an official of Guinness
13 & Mahon who in the early 1970's looked after the
14 Ansbacher accounts or the Guinness Mahon Cayman
15 Trust accounts as they were then and he has sent
16 this telex to Mike Shield who was an official in
17 Ansbacher in Cayman, in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.
18 This is dated 19th May 1977 and, as you see, it
19 says :
20 "URGENT
21 Beneficiary of Newport Agencies is

meeting with J.D.T..."
22
23 Who is John Desmond Traynor.
24 "... tomorrow and details of all

accounts from 1st October 1976 to date
25 required. I can provide Dublin account
A/D and London A/Dl, but require
26 movements on current account maintained
by you together with any other accounts
27 you may have."
?R
z, o
29 Can I ask you, firstly, do you agree that you were
58
1 the beneficiary of Newport Agencies?
2 A. My family was.
3 351 Q. Newport Agencies is your trust company, as you
4 explained to us?
6 352 Q. So if your family then is the beneficiary of Newport
7 Agencies, was it a member of your family that
8 Mr. Traynor was to meet with?
9 A. No, it would have been me.
10 353 Q. It would have been you?
11 A. Yes .
12 354 Q. Mr. Traynor was meeting with you in May 1977 and he
13 was going to provide you with the accounts of
14 Newport Agencies from October 1976 to date, do you
15 recollect getting those?
16 A. No. I may have, it is 23 years ago.
17 355 Q. I am just bearing in mind that you told us the only
18 account of Newport Agencies you got were in the
19 1980's?
20 A. That was the actual written accounts. I might have
21 met Traynor and he said to me, 'by the way, the
22 figures are so and so and so and so.'
23 356 Q. It goes on:
24 "I can provide Dublin account A/D and

London A/Dl, but I require current
25 accounts maintained by you."
26
27 So this appears to indicate that Newport Agencies
28 had an account in Dublin coded A/D and one in
29 London, which would be Guinness & Mahon London,

1 coded A/Dl as well as a current account in Cayman
2 itself. Can you throw any light on those accounts?
3 A. That conveys nothing to me.
4 357 Q. You cannot recollect the particular meeting that
5 they are talking about there with Mr. Traynor?
6 A. No.
7 MS. MACKEY: Very good. I have no
8 further questions,
9 Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland. Thank you.
10 358 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just to clarify one matter
11 in answer to a question of
12 Ms. Mackey's which you gave. If you go back to this
13 memo (Exhibit 11)from Mr. Furze in which he refers
14 to the transfer of £161,376 to the order of your
15 son. You seem to indicate that that has now thrown
16 some light on the question as far as you are
17 concerned?
18 A. Yes.
19 359 Q. What do you think this means?
20 A. I say in my statement (Exhibit 1) that I think I am
21 £200,000 short in balance.
22 360 Q. Yes.
23 A. If what I say is correct, it would suggest that this
24 £161,000 balance is what I am saying I am short.
25 361 Q. What follows from that and how are you short? This
26 has been transferred to you?
27 A. Yes.
28 362 Q. How are you short, Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland?
29 A. Because I thought all I got from the Trust was
60
1 £240,000, but I thought it should be nearer to
2 £400,000. If we add the £161,000 to the £240,000,
3 we are fairly near to it.
4 363 Q. So what you are saying is that you were probably
5 mistaken then in the figure that you gave to
6 Mr. Traynor because there had been transferred out
7 of the fund this figure that is mentioned in this?
8 A. No, Judge, I am not mistaken, Mr. Traynor was
9 mistaken.
10 364 Q. I am not following how this clarifies for you what
11 the position is. Why does it clarify it for you?
12 A. I say I am £200,000 short and now out of the blue I
13 see this £161,000.
14 365 Q. Yes.
15 A. So that would marry up a great deal of what my
16 thought is. I got the £240,000 something and I
17 thought it should be nearer to £400,000, and now I
18 see £161,000 has been transferred.
19 366 Q. When you had not got any funds when you talked to
20 Mr. Traynor, you say that he gave you the figure of
21 £200,000 which you thought was wrong.
22 A. That's right.
23 367 Q. You had not got any figure, you had not got any sums
24 then, so how does this...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. I had some figures which I had written down and
26 given to Mr. Traynor which was about £400,000 or
27 £380,000 and he said, 'no, that can't be right, it
28 is only £240,000 something.'
29 368 Q. The explanation then, you are now suggesting, is
61
1 that there had been this sum of £161,000
2 transferred?
3 A. That is what I am now thinking.
4 369 Q. It was transferred to your account?
5 A. That's right.
6 370 Q. You had omitted to put that in your calculations, is
7 that what you are saying?
9 371 Q. We have been through this already, that this was on
10 the order of your son Paul. Where is your son Paul
11 now, where is his address now?
12 A. He is in New York. I haven't got his address on me
13 at the moment, but I will furnish it to your office.
14 372 Q. Would you send it to Ms. Cummins, please.
15 A. Yes, I will get somebody to furnish it to your
16 office. He gave no orders what so whatsoever.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then,
18 Mr. 0'Reilly-Hyland, thank
19 you for your assistance. The transcript of this
20 evidence will be typed up and we would ask you to
21 come in to sign it and we will let you know.
22 A. Thank you very much.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.
24
25 END OF INTERVIEW
26
27
28
29
62
CUIHHESS > MAHON LIMITED
APPENDIX 3 '
TOP TEN LOANS AT 30 APKTt. • 1978
fEXCLUOIKS SUBSIDIARIES)
Percentage of
Balance Risk Assets
£'000 .
K.P. O'fteniy-HylafwJ/BertJfortl Investments Ltd. 616 2.4

K.P. O'NeHly Hyland/Beresford ftweitaamts Halted - 1618.023
K.P. O'Reilly Hyland - No. 1 Account - £180,282
- Ho. 2 Account - £232,541
• Currmt * - £ 3,544 £418,487
Beresford Investments United £199,88* '£416,023
K.y. D'mily Hyland - £418.487
Purpose: All the facilities taw been frtnttd fety my of personal loans.
Security: {») The Do. 1 account Is aecured'Van Identical deposit held with.
a Nhftlly owried subsidiary of Sulnness and Mahon, Dublin In the
Ciyaan Islands
(b) A Solicitor's undertaking as to lands held 1s listed as the

security for tha No. 1 account. However, on examination we
found this undertaking could not be located (we understand
that tha undertaking has. bean locattd since completion of our
~7 Q
(h) lows backed by deposits
TIM bank engsges 1» two typ«s of lout under thbbeadlng (D M I W I back-
to-back landlns and (11) ltfxMng where the bank has the security of a
deposit although THA depositor and the lender *ay not ba the SUM person -
the bank calls these "offset" loans.
P(1) tack-to-back loans
These loens fn total mount to approximately £2 (Billion. The najor loans
Involved are:
1870,000
K.P. O'Reilly Hyland £580,000
1450,000
The backing daposlts are held 1n the Caysan Islands.
MJ.P. 'to B.A. Ursell 24th December, /9S5
Brace
As requested I list hereunderparticulars of the Accounts for which we hold backing

deposits from GMCT :
a) Non Resident Acwmts ( which ere .Included ia the full set-.-.ett

category for Central Bank Returns : -
b) Resident Accounts for which we hold deposits from GMCT duly hypothecated : -
K P O'Reilly-Hyland 493,298.34 Stg. X

MLOK/CC 11th May 1990
Mr. J.D. Traynor,

Ansbacher Limited,
c/o 42, Fitzwilliam Square
Dublin 2.
rs
) Dear Des,
X refer to your letter of 17th April. The attached schedule
sets out the account details requested as at 31st March 1990.
I have discussed this list briefly with Padraig, but if there
are any queries perhaps you would let me know.
Yours sincerely.
/
I
Guinness & Mahon Ltd.,
17, College Green,
DUBLIN. 2.
Dear Sirs,
In consideration of your placing at the
disposal of BSBESVOHD IXVBKKBtTS LIMITED 39, Moles worth
Street, Dublin, (hereinafter referred to as
"the Principals", which expression shall include the
successors in title to the Principals) a loan facility
of up to £72,500 (seventy-two thousand, five hundred
pounds) on terns and conditions set out In a letter
dated 5th January, 1070 addressed by you to the Principals,
we the undersigned L.D. McGonAgle, K.P. O'ReillyHyland,
J.D. Traynor, J.J. Finnegan, S. Stephenson and Arthur
Gibney hereby guarantee to you that in the event of the
principals failing for any reason whatsoever to place
you in funds sufficient to repay when due any loan
or loans aade or liabilities Incurred under such loan
facility or failing for any reason whatsoever to pay
you as and when the same ought to be paid any commission,
interest, other charges and expenses, including legal
costs, payable to you under the terns of such loan
facility, we shall forthwith on demand remit to you the
full amount of every loan or loans made or liabilities
incurred then outstanding, together with an amount equal
to all commission, Interest, ether charges and expenses,
including legal costs, unpaid am aforesaid PROVIDED
ALWAYS that the liabilities enforceable against us
respectively under this guarantee shall not exceed la
total 85% of any loss Incurred by you in consequence of
your loan and shall not exceed in the case of any one
of us the sum of £10,OCX).
This guarantee shall not be considered as
satisfied by any intermediate payment or satisfaction
of the whole or any part of any sum-er sums of money owing
to you as aforesaid, but shall be a continuing security
and shall extend to cover any sum or sums of money which
shall for the time being constitute the balance due from
the Principals to you under such loan facility
(including all commission, interest, other charges and
expenses, including legal costs, payable to you by the
Principals) and any admission or acknowledgment in
writing by the Principals or any person authorised by
the Principals of the amount of the Indebtedness of the
Principals to you shall be binding and conclusive against
us or our respective executors and legal personal
representatives.
We undertake this guarantee as principal
debtors and not merely as sureties and this guarantee
and your rights under it shall not be prejudiced or
affected by your enlarging, reducing, or varying the
aforesaid loan facility, or by your holding now or
hereafter any collateral, or other security for all or
for any part of the monies hereby guaranteed or by your
varying, releasing or omitting or neglecting to enforce
any of the terms and Conditions of such loaij facility,
or any securities, or by your Kiving time for payment
to, or accepting composition from 0 r granting any
indulgence to or making any other arrangements with
the Principals or any person liable on any securities
held or to be held by you.
In the event of the Principals going into
liquidation we shall not prove in competition with you •
in such liquidation in raspect of any debt due from the
principals to you as aforesaid, but shall give you the
benefit of any proof which we may be entitled to make
in respect of any part of such debt paid by us until
you have received the full amount of the said debt.
No change whatsoever in the constitution
of your Company or in the constitution of the Principals
shall Impair or discharge oar liability under this
guarantee.
Any demand for the yment of any sum payable
by us hereunder may be made notice sent through the
post and such notice shall emed to have been
received on the day follow! e day on which it was
posted.
In proving that a d was duly made it
shall only be necessary to L .that the notice was
properly addressed, stamped! ted by registered or
recorded delivery mail.
This guarantee 1 ,tion to and not in
substitution for any other given to you by
us or any of us.
Baresford Investments limited - I199.S56
Shareholding: Mr. K.P. O'ttallly Hyland has tho Majority shareholding in
this company.
Purpose: Purchase of property comprising of'a warehouse and some

office space In the Capel Street a m .
Security: (a) Solicitor's undertaking to hold the title deeds of the

property purchased to the hank's order.
(b) A lien on the shares of the company.
(c) The loan 1s 1001 secured by deposit balances held with a

wholly owned trust subsidiary of Guinness I Mahon In tha
Cayman Islands. *
Interest: Interest Is charged at the Bui mess I Mahon base rata and
is payable quarterly.
Comment: The loan was granted In October 1969 and has been extended
yearly since. There have been no capital or Interest
repayaents since the granting of the loan. The company
has received an offer recently of £195.000 for the property.
Appendix XV (102) (l)(g)
nJAWPAYTt | UR08NT 1
DAY WITHOUT CHARMS TO US5- L————™J
n— Mm urn UK
\ l . 173,000- TO aank of Cradtt 6 On—arm, 100 taadwilulX
ItMti London Moowfc K.9. O'ltollly lylaad ^
AwNMufc Ho. 88/813 «L LbalcfextMila tanefa.
-Nr- 16 TO •oyal .lank of Scotland, Mancbaatar, Aoooont
a. <23,188-
Mil Sterays Aoooont in. 1933774 0/0
V>
«. f90,000- «0 Bank of Ireland, City Offlea, a Lombard
n1 -
r* ftxMt, tendon130-16-07) Account
Moount Mo*.
•s
«47U«74 O/P <XN«lv«>.
'rwiiM 11 ftriaT
i
r-
-on Hjli, S. VJttDt fOMTl- S.f*
tUP.OOej trtm trinity lank Publln.

a. i7oo.2io j»a rroM rour«»xv» i«i o/* oâ.
TKSTl
J
G+M
BANKERS
MNWR ctniwcss mum CAVHAH TRUST LTD
""" DCfOSIT FROH SUtSIO
STEXLXKG
LEDGER
P/C CALL 0/4
QUI
WW* MB
•V, *
ISAPRI6 MAUNCS UUWCHT raUMUh-
I22AFRM PEL 40V
paCAovy - .
" 20.000.001
PB&MVV ltTVf.si I
BtfKH.ter^tim - n.
•* ;."
•"i..
«,"t* •: \•»71•% • If S1S*00
E •79*000.00
•nui .. > . gas. ~ - .
Jtlvi 1 .: a> n.
a^ . .in • . Ere* l»»51JiH
KStSi® .. .. 'K* ' A4«»24.T5
V-^RN?. BCQBCNTMSSS MAHON, UVRA ItMQ.OU
PWfAOV. . - • > . .. i . 1 I N 0 « K
MHAT86 EXqi-CUINMESS fUHON'.CJlYM .. 124«*8 I

V ••
02MY06 ra;*iHficg.-. . ..v •32*626.4:
r {
• »•• •MER
: •-Uav -V '• - ».• 4*040.01
KHgXT 'euratess Mtao 60^01
pa
»r sr •
» "i
a.
.r i%
*.v«.
*»kMtM«l
Appendix XV (102)(l)(i)
)
G+M GU1NNESS+MAHON LTD

BANKERS 17Cohg*6iMnOufaaa2PABMB6AT«MwM:79aB44
CUINMEU NMOT « COAMKT LTD STATEMENT N O . 203
PACK N O . I
03274004
STOU.M6
LEDGER " " 29AFRM
MOSTRO ______
171*659.03 : fS
z u m t J «mumce "WJ25/2S2?- 700«Z10.t6
MAPM4 UMN orr mMNSI NANON iiOt00i».co
TUNXTV MNK UMr 31,2M.' 7
'NAT MESf n»in«i«
»IUM« 20.000.ti0l 39fTS4*TT
Mia i 90*000.00
mm o*mxu.v h a m 79*000.00
|«e tm- . 730*000.00
UMN QN GUINNESS MNON *
. t
l ll ill i T«
Appendix XV (102) (1) (j)
T
„ .. •
ltd MUM M1 roses mwsn • ea. VC M. 1C1.W1J0S fM* n
NULWlB^ »•»»—"
C O M B S I MHCM U » * * »
CUMHMt KCCUffM » uga
mm
^ lifllMSffflKW'' MS*
T
Appendix XV (102) (1) (k)
Ansbacher Limited
k* A Mtmbtr oftht Hmry Ambmehtr Holding* PLC Martha* Monkt*g Group
P.O. Box IS7, Quad Gsyana, Biitfck Wm bdl«

Pleasereplyto: ~ O0f)949uM53/4
. ^ J p s // 42 Fitzwilliam Squaxe, Trine CP 4309
... Ftac 009) M9-7M6
. Dublin 1 (109) 949-5367
Tel: 765144/763065
Rue 612035
29th July, 1991

Garrett Logan, Esq., , ,^ „
Irish Intarcontinantal Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
( Dear Garratt,
Would you please arrange to transfer the sun of Stg.£350,000
to the Current Account of
Ha*>te>
Paul H. 0 1 Railly-^Jyland f ^ nj
at the #3>»\«. VUXVA
Bong Kong A Shanghai Banking Corporation Ltd., ° u
Bead Office in Bong Kong.
ifluJbb' C u r A A C u 4/c.
The Account number is 6^0-302533-jgl^ . it.
The funds should be placed "value ltlftftday 6 th August.
The debit should be to Ansbacher Limited Call Deposit Account
Mo. 02/01087/81.
, I would be grateful if you would please confirm.
^ Yours sincerely,
J . D . Travnor.
JDT/AJW - isf^lr'
, \»V<
Appendix XV (102) (1) (I)
O u r m f , UOMC*!, M u r i m * M a o f U M . Baha/u,. C a p i u n t l w a . M f e k V*B»» k d i n d t '
iOlOq |
Appendix XV (102) (1) (tn)
INVESTMENTS
Held by a Subsidiary
Marlborough Holdings Limited 120
The investment in Marlborough Holdings Limited, a

•company Incorporated in Ireland, represents 12% of
P A N N E L U KERR rOFJSTKR ft COMPANY

the equity of that company. Tha investment Is shown
at cost and no market values are available.
PAN N E L L KERR rOHSTKR « COMPANY ..• •.J^'Vi 1 ""'

Appendix XV (102) (1) (n)
CREDIT COMMITTEE APPLICATION
G.6 M. Dublin Minute No: Date: \%
jjyf/RENEWAL/IMCTZX3g/HggtfCTZ0K/XMZNBMBff: Credit Class: Satisfactory
BORROWER/OBLIGOR: X.P. 0 1 REILLY-HYLAND

GUARANTOR:
PROPOSAL & PURPOSE OP FACILITY(S) :Extension of Loan facilities (overdraft
£50,000, loan £406,000) given for personal investment purposes. He repaid
Stg.£600,000 during 1988. During 1989 expects to realist.up to Elm from
sales of Investment properties (our informal valuation March 1988
attributed value £700,000 to customers properties). We have Independent
confirmation that these sales are In fact proposed. Proceeds to be used in
reduction of personal Indebtedness and to take advantage of CAT exemption
iny+rg to transfer assets to his children. See note attached
7HH5S~af Repayment, Repayment Programme & Pinal Maturity: ""
D&rlcl facilities subject to review 30.9.89. Repayment from sale of
investment properties and other personal resources. ;
B>r'M.1 s income (Including Return on Capital):
II, rest at BLR +• 2% (ROC 48%)
Security and Security Margin: ]
(1) Title deeds 67 Nutley Avenue (Held in trust ige XPO'Reilly Hyland II)
value £150,000
(2) 17471 shares McDonagh G Boland Ltd, value estimated £150,000
(3) Security is adequate for £310,000
Dther Conditions Precedent:
Dther Information:
INTEREST ROLL UP PERMITTED
KPORH HAS INDEMNIFIED US IN RESPECT OF LLOYDS GUARANTEE'S STG.£70,000 FOR
•WO OF HIS , CHILDREN ; ;
ANK'S RISK EXPOSURE - Aggregate (inclusive of this proposal) to:
Borrower/Obligor Related Borrower/Obligor
ommitted/Limit: £456,000 o>Hi*»kw?wr _ £85,000
£431,000 ^t&y-K-j £85,000
•Y Risk:
râry Risk: Limit: Country of Primary Risk: IRELAND-
* Commt: Secondary Risk:
Drawn: Domicile:
acv^r Risk:
actor: Limit: ' GM Business Sector:PERSONAL
Commt: CBofI Business Sector:PERSONAL
Drawn: Risk Asset Weighting: 1.0
Itroduced by:CUSTOMER OF LONG . Recommended by: MLOK |
TAND^TG
»clsion;
K
Credit Comm tee Chairman
Minute No: 15?? Minute No:
GM&Co. Date:
Appendix XV (102) (1) (o)
MINUTES OF CREDIT COMMITTEE MEETING
HELD ON WEDNESDAY 25 JANUARY 1989
Present: JOP TW-A />RG MJW JMJQ* KMC

(* Present For 89/66. 89/75. 89/76 only)
BANKING
Amendments:
89/75 K P 0'Reillv-Hvland
Decision: Resubmit.
1) An explanation of the Return on Capital figure
is required.
2) Further information required on 67 Nutley
Avenue. IF held in trust, is this ualid
security? Occupancy of the property is not
stated: the basis of valuation of £150.000 is
required. If tenanted, tilfi" a tenanted
valuation sho.uld be given.
X 3) Is 3 the sum of 1 & 2 or is this 'adequately

backed to the extent of £310.000 In addition?
Appendix XV (102) (1) (p)
MEMORANDUM
GUINNESS HA HON 4- CO LIMITED TO: Credit Committee
OATE: 26 January 1989 fROM:' Michael Whitmarsh
G&M DUBLIN - K P O'REILLY-HYLAND
Referring to application and minute 89/75 submitted to

Committee earlier this week, I can-now supply the follouiing
information.
, The security held is firstly the title deeds of the property in
- Nutley Avenue. This property is held In trust by K P
O'Reilly-Hyland II (the son) for Dublin's customer, the deeds
are informally held and Dublin do not have a mortgage. It does
have a tenant but even so Dublin are fairly sure that this
£150,000 is a very consaruatiwe estimate of the value. There
are the private company shares with an estimated value of
£150.000 and thirdly, ''adequate" security valued at £310^000.
WoTirTTrreH^ReFeTT^ total security which tney"""
value at a minimum of £610,000.
Due to the informal nature of the charge over the property the
security, as Martin Lanigan-O'KeeffeV states, is light.
However Mr O'Reilly-Hyland has been iNcustomer for nearly 20
-years and is extremely well respected locally. He is Chairman
of Burma Castrol (Ireland), Chairman of Friends Provident
(Ireland), a main Board Director of UK Friends Provident and UK
Provident. He is a former Director of the Central Bank of
Ireland.
He is paying 2% over Dublin base rate which, bearing in mind
that Dublin base rate is some 4-% over cost of Funds,
immediately gives this borrowing a margin of 6% (hence the
return on capital of 48%).
Martin feels that this is one.of Dublin's better customers and
the very type of person whom they are trying to attract.
I feel in view of the additional background that we now have,
uie should approve this renewal of facilities.
Appendix XV (102) (1) (q)
21.'06/2000 14:47 UHITNEV. MOORE & KELLER + 2833929 NO. 749
STATEMENT OF KENNETH P. CVREILLY-HYLAXD

1 refer to the request from the Inspectors for a statement providing information in
relation to matters under investigation by the Inspectors. I have prepared this
statementfrom my best recollcction of events going back approximately 37 years.
In 1963 I became a member of Lloyds. A feature of membership was a potential

unlimited personal liability in the event that Lloyds were to make claims against my
assets. Stop Loss Insurance Policies were not available at that time. I received
professional advice from Clifford Turner to the effect that it would be prudent to
establish an off-shoTe trust. The partner in Clifford Turner advising on the matter
was the Honourable David Nicholson (later Lord Camock).
In or about April 1964 a Trust was established in the Bahamas through Clifford
Turner and I paid a sum of approximately Stg.£l00,000 into the Trust Fund. The
beneficiaries of this Trust were to be my family. The Trustees were a firm of
Attorneys in Nassau. The Trustees had complete discretion in the operation of the
Trust.
In early 1966 I mentioned the existence of this Trust Fund to John H. Guinness of
Guinness Mahon Bank. He noted the Bank had in mind establishing a similar fund.
It was put to me by John H. Guinness that he had an excellent investment team and I
would be well advised to transfer ftmds in the Bahamas to Guinness & Mahon. At
some point in the late 1960s I did so. A wholly owned subsidiary was established by
Guinness Mahon and the subsidiary was called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
Limited. This subsidiary was operated and managed by Guinness Mahon, its
registered office would be in the Cayman Islands but its management was part of the
management of Guinness Mahon in Dublin. A shelf company was allocated to me to
use, Newport Agencies (Overseas) Limited.
I gave to Guinness Mahon the documentation that T had relative to the establishment
of the Trust by Clifford Turner, including the Trust Deed. I understood that they
would do and did do whatever was necessary to effect the transfer of funds to
^ Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited. 1 believe the transfer of the Trust Funds
took place in 1969 or at the latest in 1970.
Subsequent transfers were made to the Trust Fund. At this remove I cannot recall
the details.
By the early 1990s Mr. Des Traynor had been my contact at Guinness Mahon for a
number of years. He discussed with me in 1991 a payment out of the Trust Fund by
the Trustees to one of my family, principally my son Paul. I recall that distribution
was made in mid 1991. This money was subsequently loaned to me by my son, Paul,
to meet huge liabilities at Lloyds.
In the early part of 19941 met with Mr. Des Traynor. He told me the balance in the
Trust Fund. I expressed considerable surprise as the sum referred to was a sum short
of £200,000 less than I had anticipated. . In the course of that meeting with Mr.
Traynor I expressed a wish that the Trust be wound up and that the Trustees make
distributions to the beneficiaries. This I believe occurred shortly afterwards.
21/0b/-2008 14:4? WHITNEY. MOORE & KELLER •» 2033329 NO.749 D003
At all times from 1969.1970 onwards, I understood Guinness Mahon to be operating

and managing the Trust Fund held with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
During the life of the Trust I was not aware of any involvement by Ansbacher Bank or
Irish intercontinental Bank. I believed Mr. Des Traynor to be an employee of
Guinness Mahon at all times. All contact T had with Guinness Mahon over the years
regarding the management and operation of the Trust Fund was through Mr. Des
Traynor.
As noted above, the Trust Fund was duly wound up in 1994.

Finally I confirm I did not at any time deposit money with Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited or into any account maintained by that company in its name or in any
other financial institution. I have no knowledge and did not avail of the services that
are referred to and are stated to have beena^kble in Appendix C of the Inspectors'
letter of 21st December 1999.
Appendix XV (102) (1) (r)
w
OO+O
9205 MARS El
t
GA
10+
MOM
INTLX ON 0*4-
rsftw
GETTING TOE NUMBER* tbyiMS
MOM PSE IF I CANT fiAISE I CANT KEEP TRYING
HERE GOES
5205 MARS EI
Xi>wOIWESS CP /,
MARS El UL
TOa MIKE SHIELD, ESQ.. GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.

DATEt I3TH HAY 1977-
URGENT.
BENEFICIARY MH NEWPORT AGENCIES MEETING WITH J.D.T.

TO-MORROW AND DETAILS OF ALL ACCOUNTS FROM 1ST OCTOBER,
1976X TO DATE REWIRED. I CAN PROVIDE DUBLIN X A/D
AND LONDON A/D I BUT REQUIRE MOVEMENTS ON CURRENT ACCOUNT
MAINTAINED BY YOU XMKK TOGETHER WITH ANY OTHER ACCOUNTS YOU
MAY HAVE.
APPRECIATE A REPLY BY RETOAN TELEX. —
^DS RU. L M N M 4 ' .
JI.MEi l6.06 .
<?UlNNESS • MAHON LTD. DUBLIN.
MARS EI
'ILTON PARK HOUSLZ J.P. H A Y E S
.'ILTON P L A C E S.W. R I O R D A N
DUBLIN 2 H.V. T I G H E
P.O. H A Y E S
K.J. P A R K I N S O N
T E L E P H O N E (O I) 5 7 6 0 6 3 1 F.G. O ' R E I L L Y
M.B. RYAN
WHITNEY, MOORE & KELLER
F A X <01) 6 7 6 6 ^ 6 2
E-MAIL: ecommswSwmk.ie G.M. C A R R O L L
D.D.E. 8 0 X MO. 105 C.T. R O C H F O R D
V.M. C A R N E Y
J.K. L Y N C H
M.P. D O R A N
The Inspectors appointed by Order ASSOCIATES

A.M. B E R G I N
of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd. A.E. H A R V E Y
A. M U R P H Y
Third Floor,
CONSULTANT
Trident House, J.P. O ' C O N N O R
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
JS
BY HAND
OUR REF GC7941/1 C/011/NSPM 11th December 2001
Re: Our client - Kenneth P. 0'Reilly-Hyland
Dear Sirs,
We refer to your correspondence with Kenneth P. 0'Reilly-Hyland of the 20th November 2001.
Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland has suffered considerable illness, particularly over the last 12 to 15 months. In
that time he has been obliged to undergo surgery on two occasions. He is under continuous medical
review. We have only had the opportunity to discuss your letter dated 20th November 2001 and its
attachments, with Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland by telephone. Due to the fact that he was obliged to travel
to England last week for the purpose of a further medical consultation with his advisors, we have not
been in a position to meet with him. He fears that arising out of these consultations with his medical
advisors in London further surgery may be required. Clearly we would wish to have the opportunity
to take detailed instructions from our client having regard to the "preliminary conclusions" which
you have reached. It is clear that we will not be in a position to do this until early in the New Year
at best. In the circumstances we ask that the period of 21 days given to our client for the purpose of
providing a written reply to the preliminary conclusions should be extended and he be given until
Friday, 25th January 2002, for the purpose of providing that reply.
In respect of the document described "Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions" a number of preliminary

issues arise.
It is stated that the evidence supporting the conclusions was the evidence given on oath by Mr.
O'Reilly-Hyland together with documents shown to him during the interview.
We are wholly unclear as to the basis of the conclusion you have reached that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland
was a client of Ansbacher.
The term "client" has several meanings. In the context of a relationship between a party and a
professional person where that person is intentionally using the services of the professional person
the term client" is clearly understood. It can also mean "customer". The statement that Ken
O'Reilly-Hyland was a client of Ansbacher does violence to the concept "client". Undoubtedly
Ken O'Reilly-Hyland had money that he put into Trust. The fact that in the course of the
management of the trust funds all or part may or may not have been placed in an Ansbacher account
does not justify the description of Ken O'Reilly-Hyland as a "client ofAnsbacher".
Having perused our note of the attendance before you on the 22 n d June 2000 we cannot find the
evidence that sustains any finding that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland was a client. We can only assume you
have some artificial definition of client. If this is so perhaps you would indicate what it is and we
can consider the matter further.
In respect of the establishment of a trust whilst Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland did give evidence of
establishing a trust for the purposes of protecting himself from liability concerning being a name at
Lloyds he does not accept that he caused a trust "of which Ansbacher was the Trustee" to be
established in the Cayman Islands. Again as it is not possible to understand how you reached this
conclusion on the documentation provided, Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland wishes to be informed as to the
^ basis of this conclusion so that he may have some opportunity of dealing with the asserted
r
conclusion.
In respect of conclusions (c) and (d) they are in part premised on an acceptance of conclusion (b) the
basis of which remains to be explained. Ignoring that issue the position appears to be that you have
chosen to reach conclusions on the basis upon which you believe trust funds were held. Mr.
O'Reilly-Hyland's clear and uncontroverted evidence is that he was unaware of these matters
although he readily accepts having established a trust. What evidence are you relying on?
In so far as Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland is said to have enjoyed the use of the trust funds by means of a
service provided by Ansbacher, whereby he was unable to withdraw funds from accounts in
Ansbacher's name in GMI and IIB, again this preliminary conclusion ignores the state of the
evidence. Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland has given evidence that in so far as he borrowed funds in Ireland
such borrowing was effected on foot of security offered from Ireland.
Whilst it may be the fact that Mr. Desmond Traynor or those who appear to act on his direction may
have made annotations as to Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland's means, when considering loan applications, that
/
"" v does not, with respect, sustain the preliminary conclusions that are mentioned at sub paragraphs
2 (c) and (d). However, as the basis upon which these conclusions are drawn from the evidence that
has been given is simply not explained. All Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland can do is await a proper statement
as the basis upon which the conclusions have been reached.
It seems to us, with respect, that another substantial issue arises in the manner in which you have
stated your preliminary conclusions. Whilst we are unaware as to the manner in which your report is
to be presented the conclusions you have drawn about Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, absent any explanation
as the evidence that was given and the contradictions in that evidence, presents Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland
in a way that does not do justice to the extent of the evidence available. We are entirely unclear why
you have chosen to present the information in this way.
It occurs to us, at this preliminary stage and without knowing the full details as to the rationale which
is supportive of your preliminary conclusions the following might be said of Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland:
1. At a date unknown Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland caused a trust to be established in the

Cayman Islands.
2. The Inspectors investigations establish that, unknown to Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland,

Ansbacher, as that term is defined within the report, were involved with the
operation of the trust through the offices of Mr. Des Traynor.
3. In so far as Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland borrowed money in Ireland from Guinness & Mahon
(Ireland) Limited he may have been assisted, in part, because of Mr. Des Traynor's
knowledge of his trust fund but in circumstances where Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland was unaware of
this reliance or assistance . It is important to note, however, that when Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland
did borrow money in Ireland from Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited he had substantial
assets in Ireland against which such borrowing was secured in the normal course.
As you can see there is a material difference in this presentation. With respect it must be the
appropriate presentation. On the other hand the presentation of your preliminary conclusions
appears to be designed to damage Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland in a manner which is, with respect,
unjustified. We make this statement, of course, in circumstances where no attempt has yet been
made to explain to us the basis of your preliminary conclusions.
We await hearing from you as a matter of urgency. We assume we will get the appropriate
information to allow Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland comment appropriately on your preliminary conclusions.
Yours faithfully,
W I L T C N PARK H O U S E J. P. H A Y E S
WILTON PLACE S.W. R I O R D A N
DUBLIN 2 H.V. T I G H E
PC. HAYES
K.J. P A R K I N S O N
TELEPHONE 101) STS 0631 F.G. O ' R E I L L Y
FAX (01 ) 676 6462 M.B. RYAN
E-MAIL: a c o m m s . v m k . i e
D.D.E. B O X MO. 1 0 S
W H I T N E Y , M O O R E 8c K E L L E R G.M. C A R R O L L
C.T. R O C H F O R D
V.M. C A R N E Y
J.K. L Y N C H
M P. D O R A N
The Inspectors appointed by Order of
ASSOCIATES
The High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd. A.M. B E R G I N
A.E. H A R V E Y
Third Floor, A. M U R P H Y
Trident House, CONSULTANT

J. P. O ' C O N N O R
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
OUR REF GC7941/1 C/011/NSPM 15th January 2002
Re: Our client - Kenneth P. O'Reilly-Hyland
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter dated 18th December 2001 in response to ours of 11th December 2001.
We note the terms of your amended Preliminary Conclusions concerning Mr. Kenneth O'Reilly-
Hyland. We have now had the opportunity to consider your letter dated 18th December 2001 and its
attachments together with Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland and Counsel.
We are far from happy that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland should be considered a client of Ansbacher. It
appears to us that this designation depends entirely upon your artificial definition of "client". We
are of the opinion, and have been so advised by Counsel, that it is wholly inappropriate for High
Court Inspectors to use such an artificial definition for the purpose of then using that definition to
/-v make statements of fact.
It may be your belief, on the information which you say is available to you, that within your
definition of "client" you can use that phrase of Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. We are satisfied that it is
wholly inappropriate that you should either indicate what you are in a position to say as a matter of
fact or opinion by reference to such definition. Your Preliminary Conclusion fails to take into
account the evidence, uncontroverted, that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland had no idea he was a client of any
company that you define as "Ansbacher".
The fact that you have written to Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland asking for his comments indicates that you are
aware that your findings are likely to be damaging to Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland. Indeed this is clear
from your initial letter dated 20th November 2001. In such circumstances it is disappointing that
you would appear to stand over such definition of "client" knowing that it would be damaging to Mr.
O'Reilly-Hyland.
WM&K
Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland is in our submission entitled to know why you insist on taking this position.
This has not been explained to date and we would ask that you explain it without delay.
Yours faithfully,
TNEySVIOORE & KELLER
r
'"'ILTON PAHK hCIJSE
WMfrlv J.P. H A Y E S
.rON PLACE H.V. T I G H E
.8L1N 2 P.C. H A Y E S
K.J P A R K I N S O N
F.G. O ' R E I L L Y
TELEPHONE (Oil j.'-s • H-5C 1 M.B. RYAN
FAX (O I ) >576 -5402 G.M. C A R R O L L
E-MAIL: acomms'^'wrrik.ie
D.O.E. BOX MO. 105 WHITNEY, MOORE & KELLER C.T. R O C H F O R O
V.M. C A R N E Y
J.K. L Y N C H
M.P. D O R A N
The Inspectors
ASSOCIATES
Appointed by Order of the High Court, A.M. B E R G I N
A.E. HARVEY
Ansbacher (Cayman j Limited, A. M U R P H Y
Third Floor, CONSULTANTS
J.P. O ' C O N N O R
Trident House, S.W. RIORDAN
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
OUR REF GC7941/1 your ref C/011/NSPM 22 n d February 2002
Re: Our client - Kenneth P. O'Reilly-Hyland
Dear Sirs,
We refer to your letter of the 8 t h February 2002 acknowledging the contents of the submissions made
by us on behalf of Mr. Kenneth P. O'Reilly-Hyland (Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland) in respect of your then
stated preliminary conclusion in his case.
We are gravely concerned to note that the conclusion is now "final".
We hope that the material we set out hereafter will be deserving of your consideration and lead you
to make certain further modifications to your preliminary conclusions.
^ In the circumstances, it seems to us that the only rational explanation of the evidence available to you
is as already identified in our letter of the 11 th December 2001, in particular sub-paragraphs 1 to 3
contained in that letter.
We might add to those numbered paragraphs that it would be appropriate to describe Mr. O'Reilly-
Hyland as a retired businessman and former name at Lloyds.
We are at a loss to understand why you have given no prominence to the uncontroverted evidence
given by Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland that when he borrowed money in Ireland he did so secured on assets
within Ireland. The thrust of your presentation is that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland's account of the
establishment of his trust and the purposes for which it was used is in some way untruthful. In
particular, it is clear that you are concerned to write a report that suggests that Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland,
having retained the services of Guinness & Mahon, is responsible for the arrangements put in place
within Guinness & Mahon to deliver the services he was entitled to expect.
Your preliminary conclusions, because they fail to attend to any of the points that have been made in
our correspondence or in this letter represent a wholly inappropriate set of conclusions.
We reiterate again our complaint that the definition of "client" is so convoluted that it leads to what
appears to be a simple statement of fact by your good selves when the position is quite different and
not a fact that is to be gleaned from the conclusions you propose to publish of our client.
Given your conclusions can, in certain circumstances, constitute prima face findings of fact against
Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland, it is wholly unfair (in the legal sense) and inappropriate that you should
maintain your conclusions in their present plight.
We are forced to conclude that you would appear to have set your face against any meaningful
interaction as between what you want to say as a matter of fact or opinion and what Mr. O'Reilly-
Hyland has said and/or the evidence you have sustains, represents a failure to offer Mr. O'Reilly-
Hyland fair procedures. We are willing to meet to discuss these matters. If you are not prepared to
meet we reserve our right to be informed of the evidence you say exists to sustain your findings and,
where appropriate, to cross examine such evidence. We note, from your own procedures, that this is
a course which you consider an appropriate entitlement to persons in Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland's
position.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
Appendix XV (103) Mr Michael O'Shea
Michael O'Shea.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Michael O'Shea dated 19 June 2001.
b) Statement of Michael O' Shea.
c) Letter of 16 March 2001 - Michael O'Shea to the Inspectors.
d) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo - JDT to P O'D of 5 September

1984.
e) Letter of 2 May 1985 - DJ Barry to the Greffer' s Office, Guernsey.
f) Letter of 18 May 1992 - Joan Williams to Ronan Redmond, IIB.
g) Statements of Account A/A54.
h) Foreign Dealing tickets - Hamilton Ross.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Michael O'Shea.
a) Letter of 14 December 2001 - Mason Hayes & Curran to the Inspectors.
b) Letter of 15 January 2002 - Mason Hayes & Curran to the Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 19TH JUNE 2001
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: HIS HONOUR JUDGE 0'LEARY
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
Represented by: MR. KEVIN BARRY
McGONAGLE KENNEDY BALLAGH

I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. M. 0'SHEA JUDGE O'LEARY

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 19TH JUNE 2001:
5 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I note your statement
6 with regard to the
7 voluntariness of your attendance and that is
8 accepted, Exhibit 1.
9 MR. O'SHEA: That is accepted.
10 JUDGE 0'LEARY: By the Inspectors.
11 MR. O'SHEA: Thank you. Thanks.
12 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. That is a fairly
13 standard procedure
14 nowadays I think.
15 MR. O'SHEA: It is
16 JUDGE O'LEARY: It is indeed.
17 MR. O'SHEA: It is, yes.
18 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Thank you very much indeed
19 for attending, Mr. O'Shea.
20 My name is Sean O'Leary. I am one of the
21 Inspectors. I do not think we have had the
22 pleasure of meeting before. Ms. Noreen Mackey
23 is the other Inspector.
24 MR. O'SHEA: I have met Ms. Mackey
25 before.
26 JUDGE O'LEARY: You have met Ms. Mackey
27 before.
28 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
29 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, I think she told me
4
1 that.
2 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.
3 JUDGE O'LEARY: The position is that there
4 are, as you know, four
5 Inspectors but only two of the Inspectors will
6 be dealing with any matter touching on anything
7 we talk about here today to you.
8 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.
9 JUDGE O'LEARY: Obviously, we have had to
10 divide up the work and
11 that is the way it is divided so far.
12 MR. 0'SHEA: I understand, yes.
13 JUDGE O'LEARY: The position is that we
14 have a number of questions
15 to ask you both in your own personal capacity as a
16 member of a firm of solicitors and also in your
17 capacity as one of the persons named with legal
18 authority in the Will of the late Mr. McGonagle.
19 MR. 0'SHEA: Indeed.
20 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. So, it is in those
21 two capacities.
22 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.
23 JUDGE O'LEARY: It is a very informal
24 procedure. There is only
25 one formal part of it as you know and that is the
26 question of taking the oath.
27 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes.
28 JUDGE O'LEARY: That is the only formal
29 part of it really.
5
1 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
2 JUDGE O'LEARY: I note that you have a
3 solicitor here with you.
4 You probably will not need it but if you feel like
5 consulting with the solicitor at any time by all
6 means just tell us "Stop" and we will stop and you
7 can of course consult with your colleague.
8 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
9 JUDGE O'LEARY: And similarly if your
10 colleague feels that it
11 is in your interest that we should stop at any time
12 all he has to do is to say "Stop" and we will allow
13 the interruption.
14 MR. O'SHEA: That is why Kevin is here.
15 JUDGE O'LEARY: What?
16 MR. O'SHEA: That is why he is here.
17 JUDGE O'LEARY: That is why he is here,
18 yes. I think you are
19 wise. People are wise always to have another
20 pair of eyes and ears there.
21 MR. O'SHEA: Right, yes.
22 JUDGE O'LEARY: I wonder if you would take
23 the oath now and we will
24 get on to asking you the questions we have.
25 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
26
27
28
29
6
1 MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY JUDGE O'LEARY:
5 1 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. O'Shea, the position
6 is that most of the
7 connections which we have discovered relate, I
8 would think it is fair to say, to the activities
9 of the late Mr. McGonagle?
10 A. Yes.
11 2 Q. I think that is a fair summary. There are however
12 a number of things relating to your firm to which
13 we would also like to refer?
14 A. Yes.
15 3 Q. However, in order to put the matter straight you
16 were appointed under the Will of Mr. O'Shea to be
17 the Executor and Trustee of his Estate?
18 A. Of Mr. McGonagle.
19 MS. MACKEY: Mr. McGonagle.
20 A. Yes.
21 4 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Of Mr. McGonagle I should
22 say?
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 5 Q. You were?
25 A. One of them.
26 6 Q. Yes. One of two of them I think?
27 A. That is right.
28 7 Q. Yes. The other one being a Mr. O'Reilly-Hyland?
29 A. O'Reilly-Hyland.
7
1 8 Q. Did you exercise that power?
2 A. No.
3 9 Q. No?
4 A. No, I renounced my rights.
5 10 Q. You renounced your rights?
6 A. Yes.
7 11 Q. Who in fact exercised the power?
8 A. His widow.
9 12 Q. His widow?
10 A. Barbara.
11 13 Q. Yes. As the heir at law is it?
12 A. As the residual legatee.
13 14 Q. As a residual legatee?
14 A. Yes.
15 15 Q. All right. Did you act in that matter?
16 A. Yes.
17 16 Q. Yes, you did. In a professional capacity for him?
18 A. Yes.
19 17 Q. One of the problems that we have had in dealing
20 with the case of Mr. McGonagle is that we have to
21 accept that the widow of Mr. McGonagle was only
22 very recently married to him?
23 A. That is true, yes.
24 18 Q. And she has sent us in various statements with
25 regard to her state of knowledge which we accept;
26 I mean from a practical viewpoint?
27 A. Indeed.
28 19 Q. You are probably aware of those statements yourself?
29 A. Yes, I am.
8
1 20 Q. Yes?
2 A. I am aware of them.
3 21 Q. I mean from your own personal knowledge are we
4 wise to give credence to those do you think?
5 A. Well, I would have thought so.
6 22 Q. Yes?
7 A. I mean she...(INTERJECTION).
8 23 Q. You...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I mean...(INTERJECTION).
10 24 Q. From your own knowledge does she know anything
11 about the situation?
12 A. Well, I can never be certain but I
13 know...(INTERJECTION).
14 25 Q. Of course I understand that?
15 A. But I know Liam was an extraordinarily close,
16 careful, prudent and secretive man.
17 26 Q. Yes?
18 A. He didn't volunteer information to anybody.
19 27 Q. Yes?
20 A. And least of all to his wife.
21 28 Q. Yes?
22 A. Now, I mean I gleaned information over the years
23 from time to time. I was never told, you know?
24 29 Q. I understand. So, it is entirely consistent that
25 she would not know anything really significant?
26 A. It certainly is, yes.
27 30 Q. All right. We actually accept that?
28 A. Yes.
29 31 Q. And we will of course reflect that in any decision
9
1 which we have to take; of course. That however puts
2 us in somewhat of a difficulty because it would
3 be not unfair to the late Mr. McGonagle to say that
4 his name crops up on a number of occasions through
5 the course of our investigation?
6 A. Yes.
7 32 Q. Both as a solicitor and as an individual?
8 A. Yes.
9 33 Q. I think that...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. I haven't seen...(INTERJECTION).
11 34 Q. You have not seen it; all right?
12 A. I have seen some.
13 35 Q. All right. The problem which we are faced with is:
14 We must identify the clients of the Company we are
15 investigating?
16 A. Yes.
17 36 Q. Which is "Ansbacher"?
18 A. Yes.
19 37 Q. We are not investigating Mr. McGonagle?
20 A. Yes.
21 38 Q. We are not investigating you?
22 A. Yes.
23 39 Q. We are not investigating anybody?
24 A. Yes.
25 40 Q. We were investigating the Company?
26 A. Yes.
27 41 Q. However, one of the jobs that has been given to us
28 is that we must identify the clients of the Company.
29 A. Right, yes, yes.
10
1 42 Q. Obviously, we have to consider whether Mr. McGonagle
2 was a client of "Ansbacher" or not?
3 A. Yes.
4 43 Q. Do you know whether he was or not; directly or
5 indirectly?
6 A. He never told me.
7 44 Q. Yes?
8 A. But I did obviously advise him in a number of
9 respects in connection with a visit to a Tribunal
10 and...(INTERJECTION).
11 45 Q. I do not want to...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. And also...(INTERJECTION).
14 A. I also advised him. So, I am not sure if I
15 can answer that.
16 47 Q. I do not want any information which you got
17 exclusively from giving him advice?
18 A. Yes.
19 48 Q. I do not want that information?
20 A. Yes.
21 4 9 Q. That would be improper and I do not want that
22 information?
23 A. Yes.
24 50 Q. Other than that are you aware of any such
25 connection?
26 A. He would never have told me.
27 51 Q. Yes, yes. Do you know for example of the existence
28 of a company called Camille Investments Ltd?
29 A. Yes, I have heard the name.
11
1 52 Q. Yes. Had you any connection yourself with the
2 Company?
3 A. No, no, but I knew it was an investment company
4 of Liam's.
5 53 Q. Of Liam's?
6 A. Yes.
7 54 Q. Did he own it himself?
8 A. He did.
9 55 Q. He did, yes, yes. It may have been, the shares may
10 have been, in different person's names from time to
11 time but I think he was the beneficial owner at all
12 times?
13 A. I would have thought so, yes.
14 56 Q. Yes?
15 A. I don't think they were in anybody else's name.
16 57 Q. They may?
17 A. But I may...(INTERJECTION).
18 58 Q. They may have been but...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. I mean I wouldn't necessarily know.
20 59 Q. Yes, yes. I will just show you a letter of the
21 30th March 1988, Exhibit 2?
22 A. Yes.
23 60 Q. Which I think is Mr. McGonagle's own acknowledgement
24 that he owns the Company?
25 A. Right, yes.
26 61 Q. Because obviously unless we know who owned the
27 Company we could not proceed on any basis
28 (Same Handed), Exhibit 3?
29 A. Yes, right. Yes, that seems clear.
12
1 62 Q. It seems clear enough?
2 A. Yes, it does, yes.
3 63 Q. And I mean I am just giving you an opportunity of
4 looking at it?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 64 Q. In case you say, "That is all wrong. He only did
7 that because of X, Y or Z"?
8 A. No.
9 65 Q. All right. There are two other pieces of evidence
10 which I want to put to you as a person who might
11 know something about it?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 66 Q. And, of course, I accept you might not also know
14 anything about it as well?
15 A. Yes .
16 67 Q. However, I think in fairness to the late
17 Mr. McGonagle somebody had better be told about
18 these pieces of information because otherwise
19 it would be quite improper and I think you are
20 the appropriate person. There is an internal
21 memo dated the 16th August 1978. When I say it
22 is "internal" it is internal to Guinness Mahon
23 Ireland (Same Handed)?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 68 Q. You may have already seen that in another context.
26 I am not sure whether you have or not?
27 A. I probably have seen this before.
28 69 Q. You probably have seen it?
29 A. Yes .
1 70 Q. There are three matters that I want to point out
2 to you there. Mr. Turvey: Would you explain who
3 Mr. Turvey is to me?
4 A. He is a friend of Liam McGonagle's.
5 71 Q. Yes?
6 A. Was a friend, yes.
7 72 Q. Yes. Is he an accountant or is he...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. He is an accountant; he is.
9 73 Q. Is he?
10 A. Yes.
11 74 Q. Yes?
12 A. Though he has't...(INTERJECTION).
13 75 Q. Has he a Haughey Boland background
14 or...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. No, he hasn't. He has always -- I don't think he
16 has ever practised as a professional accountant.
17 He has always been in business.
18 76 Q. Yes?
19 A. And -- but he was a friend of Liam's since -- from
20 his school days.
21 77 Q. Yes. He seemed to have carriage of a lot of matters
22 relating to Camille Investments Ltd over the years?
23 A. They were very friendly.
24 78 Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge?
25 A. Well, they were friendly, you know?
26 79 Q. Yes?
27 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
28 80 Q. However, do you know whether he had a lot of
29 involvement in Camille Investments?
14
1 A. I think Liam would have relied on him from time
2 to time, yes.
3 81 Q. From time to time?
4 A. Yes.
5 82 Q. Yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 83 Q. There are two other matters I want to refer to you:
8 Do you see the expression:
10 "This is a suitably secured situation"?
11
12 A. Yes.
13 84 Q. We have been informed by Guinness & Mahon that
14 "suitably secured" in that context means the
15 following: That money was being borrowed and
16 it was being borrowed on a back-to-back basis
17 against money which was on deposit outside this
18 jurisdiction. That may have been the North of
19 Ireland. It may have been the Channel Islands?
20 A. Yes.
21 85 Q. Or it may have been the Cayman Islands?
22 A. Yes.
23 8 6 Q. Do you know whether Camille Investments had
24 any such money of your own knowledge?
25 A. I would be very surprised if it had.
26 87 Q. Yes?
27 A. I would be -- Camille Investments was an Irish
28 company.
29 88 Q. Yes?
15
1 A. So, I don't think Camille would have had any
2 funds outside of the jurisdiction.
3 89 Q. Yes?
4 A. But again I can't be certain.
5 90 Q. Yes, I understand?
6 A. But I would be very surprised.
7 91 Q. If it was being backed by funds outside the
8 jurisdiction they were probably held in another
9 name?
10 A. That's a possibility.
11 92 Q. Yes. Because you can see in the bottom that it
12 says :
13
14 "In the meantime I have asked E.McL.

to hold dollars in excess of 300,000.00
15 held on deposit from G.M.C.T to our
order."
16
17
18 A. Yes .
19 93 Q. One of the conclusions the Inspectors might draw
20 from that and of course they can be persuaded to
21 draw a different conclusion if that is appropriate?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 94 Q. One of the conclusions they might draw from it is
24 that Camille Investments and its owner had access
25 to backing deposits in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust,
26 which was an earlier name of "Ansbacher". Do you
27 have any information to confirm or dissuade us from
28 adopting that course of action?
29 A. I would be I suppose giving privileged information
16
1 if I were to do otherwise...(INTERJECTION).
2 95 Q. I am not interested in the privileged information.
3 Other than privileged information...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. I am...(INTERJECTION).
5 96 Q. You can forget you know privileged information?
6 A. I am...(INTERJECTION).
7 97 Q. Forget that?
8 A. I...(INTERJECTION).
10 A. I know I have come across the phrase "suitably
11 secured" on many occasions.
12 99 Q. Yes?
13 A. I know how Guinness & Mahon interpret that phrase.
14 100 Q. Yes?
15 A. I am not sure that it was always interpreted --
16 it always reflected the actual position. I have
17 come across situations where I think it might have
18 been convenient for Mr. Traynor to say to his
19 lending committee, "This is adequately secured".
20 101 Q. Yes, I understand. Yes?
21 A. Whereas in fact it wasn't but he would have known
22 the borrower and would have been quite happy. Now,
23 I cannot give you any instances off the top of my
24 head of that but I certainly have come across one
25 or two instances of that.
26 102 Q. Yes. However, Mr. O'Shea, that line of "Defence"
27 hardly passes muster in this case when in the course
28 of the same memo there is a specific request?
29 A. Yes .
1 103 Q. To set aside 300,000 US dollars, presumably
2 US dollars, which are apparently in G.M.C.T?
3 A. Indeed.
4 104 Q. So, I think that "Defence" which might be open
5 to some people hardly applies to this document?
6 A. Right, indeed.
7 105 Q. You see the point I am making; that is all I am
8 saying?
9 A. I see the point you are making of course.
10 106 Q. All right, grand. The third piece of evidence
11 that we have which would indicate a connection
12 between Camille Investments Ltd and "Ansbacher",
13 and therefore of course indirectly with
14 Mr. McGonagle, is a memo dated or a letter dated
15 the 11th March 1990 from Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe to
16 Mr. Traynor and there is a Schedule attached to
17 that. I think in the case of Mr. O'Shea you can
18 Mr. O'Shea, I am treating you as a solicitor in
19 this regard: I am going to give you the complete
20 document which includes the names of other people
21 (Same Handed), Exhibit 4?
22 A. Certainly, you can take that...(INTERJECTION).
23 107 Q. However, I mean you have to undertake to me not
24 to...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. Yes .
26 108 Q. To abide by confidence in that regard?
27 A. Yes, yes.
28 109 Q. Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe has informed another person,
29 and will in due course no doubt inform us also,

1 that this Schedule was produced by him for
2 Mr. Traynor and it was a Schedule of "suitably
3 secured" loans?
4 A. Yes.
5 110 Q. Persons who had loans through "Ansbacher" that were
6 "suitably secured"?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 111 Q. And they included a number of persons including
9 Liam McGonagle?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 112 Q. All right?
12 A. Yes, clearly the case, yes.
13 113 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 114 Q. Have you any comment to make on that?
16 A. It could be for a number of factors. I can't --
17 obviously it would be speculation -- I think you
18 can speculate; I think may be correctly. I have
19 seen a number of these (indicating), Exhibit 4.
20 115 Q. I can only go on what Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe says?
21 A. Yes.
22 116 Q. That is all I can go on?
23 A. Yes.
24 117 Q. Because I...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. Yes.
26 118 Q. It means nothing to me. All it is is a Schedule?
27 A. Yes, yes.
28 119 Q. If Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe said to me, which I
29 anticipate he will not because he has said it
19
1 differently to another person, but if he in due
2 course says to me, "Well, I don't know what
3 that list is"?
4 A. Yes.
5 120 Q. Well, then I will have to take it to out of my
6 reckoning; do you understand?
7 A. Yes.
8 121 Q. However, if he says what I anticipate he is going
9 to say?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 122 Q. There can be only one conclusion surely; that
12 conclusion is that Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe
13 thought that...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. That these were...(INTERJECTION).
15 123 Q. That Mr. McGonagle had a "suitably secured" loan?
16 A. Indeed, yes.
17 124 Q. Whether that proves it or not; that is a matter
18 of judgment afterwards?
19 A. This was a list of facilities made available by
20 Guinness & Mahon to the individuals.
21 125 Q. With backing?
22 A. With...(INTERJECTION).
23 126 Q. To "Ansbacher"?
24 A. Yes.
25 127 Q. As you will appreciate...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. Yes.
27 128 Q. As you will appreciate if you look at the date,
28 the 11th May 1990, it can hardly be anything else?
29 MR. BARRY: That is a question you
20
1 are asking, Michael, or
2 is that a statement you are making?
3 A. Well, I am...(INTERJECTION).
4 MR. BARRY: Are you saying that that
5 is a list (indicating),
6 Exhibit 4?
7 A. Well, no. I am assuming it is a list.
8 129 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. It is a list?
9 A. It is a list, yes.
10 MR. BARRY: So, it is a question?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. BARRY: Yes, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. BARRY: It sounded like a
15 statement; sorry.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE O'LEARY: I think coaching the
18 witness is neither
19 ethical.
20 MR. BARRY: Excuse me; I am sorry.
21 JUDGE O'LEARY: Or certainly necessary.
22 MR. BARRY: Excuse me.
23 JUDGE O'LEARY: With an expert witness
24 like this.
25 MR. BARRY: Sorry.
26 130 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: However, the reality of
27 the situation as you
28 will appreciate?
29 A. Yes.
21
1 131 Q. Is that on the 11th May 1990 Mr. Traynor no
2 longer had any connection with Guinness & Mahon?
3 A. That is right.
4 132 Q. And he is addressed in the letter as being
5 Mr. J. D. Traynor of "Ansbacher" Limited?
6 A. Yes.
7 133 Q. So, we can take it that it has an "Ansbacher"
8 connection?
9 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .
10 134 Q. We can take it that Mr. Lanigan-0'Keeffe thought
11 it had an "Ansbacher" connection?
12 A. Thought -- well, perhaps he did, yes. Perhaps
13 he did.
14 135 Q. Yes. That is a matter that...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Now, I know from talking to Liam that Liam had
16 always had the assets of Camille securing any
17 borrowings he had personally.
18 136 Q. Yes?
19 A. And including also the Deeds to No. 29 Molesworth
20 Street.
22 A. And insofar as Liam was concerned that was security
23 that they held.
24 138 Q. Yes, I understand that?
25 A. And if there was anything in "Ansbacher" it wasn't
26 necessary.
27 139 Q. That may well be the case?
28 A. Now...(INTERJECTION).
29 140 Q. However, we have found many examples of that?
22
1 A. Indeed.
2 141 Q. Many examples of that?
3 A. But certainly No. 29 Molesworth Street -- I am
4 not sure had it been sold at that time or not but
5 it was substantially more than the borrowing than
6 was there (indicating), Exhibit 4, or the borrowing
7 figure there (indicating), Exhibit 4, and I think
8 also the other assets of Camille would have been in
9 the region of a few hundred thousand pounds. They
10 were basically investments and again they would have
11 been there as security. So, I don't know what else
12 or what other records Guinness & Mahon might have
13 in relation to that type of security.
14 142 Q. Yes?
15 A. And whether they would have considered that to
16 be adequately secured or not but I mean I hear
17 what you are saying, yes.
18 143 Q. You can take it that their evidence to us has been
19 that adequately secured means offshore?
20 A. Yes, offshore, yes, yes.
21 144 Q. It does not necessarily mean Cayman?
22 A. Yes .
23 145 Q. However, it means offshore?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 146 Q. All right. The last thing I want to show you in
26 the Camille mode of this is a document signed by
27 yourself apparently (Same Handed). Is that your
28 signature (indicating), Exhibit 5?
29 A. It is, yes. Yes, it is.

1 147 Q. In what capacity did you sign that?
2 A. I have no idea.
3 148 Q. Whose signature is it underneath? There appear to
4 be two signatures on it?
5 A. Yes. That is Des Turvey's signature.
6 14 9 Q. Yes. That is the one which we have seen in many
7 documents dealing with Camille?
8 A. Yes.
9 150 Q. And we will of course in due course deal with
10 that with Mr. Turvey?
11 A. And that is Mr. Turvey.
12 151 Q. Who were not the auditors?
13 A. No. I haven't seen the Company's file. Was I
14 a Director at some stage of Camille?
15 152 Q. I do not know?
16 A. Yes.
17 153 Q. I am asking you?
18 A. I honestly...(INTERJECTION).
19 154 Q. You told me you had nothing to do with the Company.
20 A. I have...(INTERJECTION).
21 155 Q. And I am just saying to you that I have come across
22 this document (indicating), Exhibit 5?
23 A. I have no idea what -- why my signature is there
24 (indicating), Exhibit 5.
25 156 Q. I wonder if you would have a look at it yourself?
26 A. Yes.
27 157 Q. And if you can come up with any explanation?
28 A. Yes.
29 158 Q. That would be of assistance to us?
24
1 A. Yes.
2 159 Q. We would appreciate it?
3 A. Yes. It is clearly a request to the bank to provide
4 information to Haughey Boland but I cannot tell you
5 in what capacity I signed that (indicating),
6 Exhibit 5.
7 160 Q. Do you see that the document itself says you signed
8 as an authorised signature?
9 A. Yes.
10 161 Q. Were you an authorised signature for that Company?
11 A. I don't believe so.
12 162 Q. Yes. I have come across no information that you in
13 fact were an authorised signature of the Company?
14 A. Yes.
15 163 Q. However, I wonder would you look at it?
16 A. Yes.
17 164 Q. And see whether there is any further information
18 you can give us as a result of your investigations?
19 A. I will certainly check to see was I a Director
20 at that stage.
21 165 Q. Exactly?
22 A. Yes.
23 166 Q. I wonder would you do that?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 167 Q. I think it would be of assistance to us if you
26 did that?
27 A. Certainly, yes.
29 A. Yes.
25
1 169 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about
2 Mr. McGonagle's involvement in any other
3 companies with "Ansbacher" connections other
4 than in a...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Professional?
6 170 Q. Yes; professional capacity?
7 A. I don't think so. Other than in a professional
8 capacity, no.
9 171 Q. Yes. I am not interested...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Not that I --
11 172 Q. Yes?
12 A. I mean a number of companies have come up certainly.
13 173 Q. Yes?
14 A. If you...(INTERJECTION).
15 174 Q. Was he involved in a company called Pine Securities?
16 A. No.
17 175 Q. No?
18 A. He wasn't.
19 176 Q. Was he involved in a company called Beresford
20 Investments?
21 A. I believe he was.
22 177 Q. Yes. Were you involved in the Company called
23 Beresford Investments?
24 A. No, but I remember it through the office. I
25 think it bought and sold a property and I think
26 lost a small amount of money in the process.
27 178 Q. Yes. Do you know who the beneficial owners of
28 that Company were?
29 A. I think there were a number of individuals.
26
1 179 Q. Including Mr. McGonagle?
2 A. Including, yes.
3 180 Q. Yes. Were you a beneficial owner of the Company?
4 A. No.
5 181 Q. That also, according to the records of GMI and
6 that is all I am talking about is the records
7 of GMI?
8 A. Yes.
9 182 Q. Had a "suitably secured" loan?
10 A. Yes, I have seen those.
11 183 Q. You have seen those?
12 A. Yes.
13 184 Q. I have no knowledge as to what that "suitably
14 secured" loan was. I do not have the same knowledge
15 as I have in the case of the previous one that I put
16 to you; do you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 185 Q. Yes. Were you familiar with a company called
19 British Isle Investments?
20 A. I have heard the name.
21 186 Q. Yes. Were you an owner of that Company yourself?
22 A. No.
23 187 Q. Had you any interest in the Company?
24 A. None, none.
25 188 Q. Did Mr. McGonagle have an interest in the Company?
26 A. That would be again information I would have
27 gleaned from Mr. McGonagle.
28 189 Q. In a professional capacity?
29 A. In a professional capacity, yes.
27
1 190 Q. However, other than that information?
2 A. Other than that I wouldn't know.
3 191 Q. You would not know?
4 A. No, I wouldn't know.
5 192 Q. However, British Isle Investments Company or
6 whatever the precise name of it was?
7 A. Yes.
8 193 Q. Was a very famous Company?
9 A. Yes.
10 194 Q. I mean it had been the subject of much speculation?
11 A. Indeed. I think I...(INTERJECTION).
12 195 Q. So, I mean it is not just like a...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I think I -- yes, I think I know what you are
14 referring to.
15 196 Q. Yes. In the United Kingdom?
16 A. That is right, yes.
17 197 Q. There was a company investigation?
18 A. There was.
19 198 Q. And British Isle Investments was at the very centre
20 of that company investigation?
21 A. Yes, that is right.
22 199 Q. Surely at that time quite separate from any advice
23 which you gave him in later life...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. Well, I remember a little bit about that. There
25 were two UK --
26 200 Q. Yes?
27 A. There were two British property developers that
28 Liam had a business relationship with. We -- I
29 think they were involved in a US public -- sorry,
28
1 a UK company called Norwest Hoist Ltd and I think
2 it was in that context that the inquiry arose but
3 I didn't know -- I never knew the details of the
4 inquiry.
5 201 Q. I can assure you I have no interest in the details
6 of the inquiry?
7 A. I know there was a suggestion that in some way
8 they had taken money out of Norwest Hoist and --
9 but I never knew the...(INTERJECTION).
10 202 Q. However, was not the fact of Mr. McGonagle and
11 this British Isle Investments Company central
12 to the issue to be deciding in that inquiry
13 in England and did they not come to Dublin to
14 interview Mr. McGonagle?
15 A. I wasn't aware of that. I thought he hadn't been
16 interviewed but...(INTERJECTION).
17 203 Q. No, he had not?
18 A. Yes.
19 204 Q. Because when they came to Dublin he refused to
20 be interviewed?
21 A. I see, I see. All right.
22 205 Q. However, you surely must have known that?
23 A. It is just that I have heard the name but whether
24 it was a company that was solely controlled by
25 these two English property developers or with
26 Liam McGonagle I don't know.
27 206 Q. Yes?
28 A. It -- I am not sure what the results of the
29 inquiry were either but the...(INTERJECTION).
29
1 207 Q. Yes, I see. However, you do not know anything
2 about that Company as such?
3 A. Other than in the context of professional advice,
4 no.
5 208 Q. Yes?
6 A. I mean I was aware vaguely of the inquiry.
7 209 Q. Yes?
8 A. But I can't say I know anything about it.
9 210 Q. Yes. On the question of professional advice:
10 Ms. Cummins mentions to me, and it is quite true,
11 that the recent law on that matter seems to
12 differentiate between information which a solicitor
13 gets while acting for a Client with regard to who
14 owns a company on the one hand?
15 A. Yes .
16 211 Q. And the advice that he or she tenders to that person
17 arising from that consultation?
18 A. Yes .
19 212 Q. And that all seems to have come down in favour of a
20 solicitor not being able to exercise privilege with
21 regard to information with regard for example to the
22 ownership of a company?
23 A. Well, I think they...(INTERJECTION).
24 213 Q. Is that not the current state of the law?
25 A. I thought it was -- I mean I bow to your knowledge
26 in that regard, Judge.
27 214 Q. Yes?
28 A. But I did look at Judge Kelly's decision in the
29 Miley -v- Miley case and he clearly said there you
30
1 cannot -- you must disclose the name of your client
2 215 Q. Yes?
3 A. And he decided, or he confirmed I think the legal
4 position, that legal assistance isn't privileged.
5 Legal advice is, which I think is the sort of
6 language he used.
7 216 Q. Any way, Mr. O'Shea, I am not going down that road;
8 I can assure you?
9 A. Yes .
10 217 Q. Because with regard to Mr. McGonagle I certainly
11 have enough information to be able to make a
12 decision whether or not he was a client of
13 "Ansbacher"?
14 A. Okay, indeed.
15 218 Q. I may be a bit deficient with regard to being
16 able to precisely define the extent to which he
17 was a client?
18 A. Okay, yes.
19 219 Q. However, I do not think that is sufficiently
20 important to my investigation of "Ansbacher"
21 for me to go to the scaffold over it?
22 A. Indeed, yes.
23 220 Q. Do you understand what I mean?
24 A. Indeed.
25 221 Q. If it was necessary and if it was a matter of
26 life or death I would pursue the matter further
27 with you but I am not interested in pursuing
28 the matter further with you at this stage for
29 that reason?
1 A. Very well.
2 222 Q. All right?
3 A. Thank you.
4 223 Q. I come now to the question of the relationship
5 between "Ansbacher" and your company?
6 A. Yes .
7 224 Q. A firm of solicitors?
8 A. Yes .
9 225 Q. And we have received your statement in that regard?
10 A. Yes .
11 226 Q. And it is helpful and thank you very much indeed
12 for the statement, Exhibit 6. It is of considerable
13 assistance to us. We know that your company acted
14 for Cayman International Bank & Trust Company
15 Limited, which was another of the names of
16 "Ansbacher"?
17 A. Yes .
18 227 Q. And really we are not interested in that. We
19 really have no concerns with regard to that.
20 You are entitled to act for those people if
21 you want. However, we are interested in the
22 1993 situation?
23 A. Yes .
24 228 Q. About this fee apparently that was paid by a UK
25 Client of the firm. What was the amount of that
26 approximately? I do not want the...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. Approximately £40,000.
28 229 Q. £40,000, yes. Do you know how long it was invested
29 somewhere?
1 A. I would hazard a guess and say a number of months;
2 may be up to five or six months perhaps.
3 230 Q. Yes?
4 A. May be shorter.
5 231 Q. Yes. If I was to tell you that our information is
6 that it was in Hamilton Ross rather than Kentford
7 would you know whether that is right or wrong?
8 A. I won't.
9 232 Q. Yes?
10 A. I know the payment came from Kentford.
11 233 Q. Yes. However, I think Kentford was merely a
12 device used for making payments?
13 A. May be so, yes.
14 234 Q. Do you understand?
15 A. May be so, yes.
16 235 Q. It was not an investment vehicle?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 236 Q. Insofar as we have been able to ascertain?
19 A. Yes.
20 237 Q. Kentford was the mechanism by which money was paid
21 to Irish people?
22 A. Yes.
23 238 Q. From money which had been abroad; do you understand
24 what I mean?
25 A. Yes, I do, yes.
26 239 Q. Yes. That was...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I do, yes.
28 240 Q. So, as far as you were concerned it was Kentford?
29 A. Yes.
33
1 241 Q. Do you remember the circumstances in which it was
2 put where-ever it was put; leaving aside for the
3 moment where it was put?
4 A. I think it was probably Liam's idea.
5 242 Q. Yes?
6 A. To route it through Des Traynor.
7 243 Q. Yes?
8 A. And Liam possibly mentioned it to me.
9 244 Q. Yes?
10 A. In any event it happened.
11 245 Q. Yes?
12 A. And subsequently payments were made by Kentford.
13 246 Q. Yes. Were you familiar at that time with where it
14 was going yourself?
15 A. No, I had no idea.
16 247 Q. You had no idea?
17 A. I had no idea.
18 248 Q. When you say it was "Des Traynor" do you think
19 it was coming to Des Traynor in Ireland or it
20 was coming to Des Traynor where?
21 A. Well... (INTERJECTION) .
22 249 Q. Or did you know?
23 A. Obviously, I knew of Des's connection with
24 Guinness & Mahon. I didn't give it any thought
25 as to what other banking connections he had.
26 Obviously, at that time he was no longer in
27 Guinness & Mahon.
28 250 Q. I mean he had left Guinness & Mahon at that stage
29 for five years?
34
1 A. That is true, that is true, but in any event he
2 was happy to facilitate Liam and did and I didn't
3 really think very much about it one way or the
4 other.
5 251 Q. Yes. You are not familiar, are you, with whether
6 or not -- it was then eventually brought into this
7 Country. The money was brought into this Country,
8 was it, and distributed between you?
9 A. It was distributed to the partners, it was.
10 252 Q. And where did it end up? Did it end up in the
11 firm's account or where did it end up?
12 A. No, it ended up in the partner's account.
13 253 Q. In...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. Individually.
15 254 Q. Within the firm?
16 A. Individually.
17 255 Q. Individually?
18 A. Yes, individually.
19 256 Q. Individually, yes, I see. Was it expected that the
20 partners would make whatever returns were necessary
21 arising out of that?
22 A. Yes.
23 257 Q. Yes?
24 A. Well, if they were doing it, yes.
25 258 Q. Yes?
26 A. Yes.
27 259 Q. And was this money earned abroad
28 or...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. It was earned abroad.
35
1 260 Q. Earned abroad?
2 A. Yes, it was a UK Client as I recall.
3 261 Q. Yes, I see, I see. Do you remember the time of
4 the year in 1993 that you received that money?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 262 Q. I wonder could you find that out for us?
7 A. I could.
8 263 Q. Yes?
9 A. Yes, I could. I think there may be some
10 correspondence.
11 264 Q. Yes. Well, that is fair enough?
12 A. But I will certainly see if I can find that out.
13 265 Q. Yes. That would be of assistance to us?
14 A. Yes.
15 266 Q. It always seems to us that there was a small balance
16 remaining in Hamilton Ross after the payment was
17 made even as late as the 31st December 1993 of
18 some £1,240?
19 A. I think there was. I think that may have been
20 interest.
21 267 Q. Yes?
22 A. Which was subsequently divided again.
23 268 Q. At a later date?
24 A. At a later date.
25 269 Q. Yes. I wonder would you just give us the dates
26 of those?
27 A. Certainly.
28 270 Q. It would be of considerable assistance to us?
29 A. Yes.
36
1 271 Q. All right?
2 A. Okay.
3 272 Q. Thank you very much indeed. That is grand.
4 Have I -- from time to time -- as you say in
5 your statement, Exhibit 6: On one occasion you
6 respected the firm and I am not concerned about
7 that November 1993 instruction that you received.
8 Had you ever acted for the Firm before that?
9 A. No, not to my knowledge.
10 273 Q. No, not to your knowledge?
11 A. Yes .
12 274 Q. I see, okay. Had you ever received money from the
13 Firm before that?
14 A. No.
15 275 Q. All right. We have, I have, two other documents
16 to show you. One really is and I want to explain
17 its frailty to you because I do not like making
18 claims for documents that I cannot stand over, as
19 you will appreciate. This is a document at page 28,
20 Ms. Cummins, please (Same Handed), Exhibit 7?
21 A. Thanks.
22 276 Q. This is a memo from Mr. Traynor to Mr. O'Dwyer?
23 A. Yes .
24 277 Q. They were both working in Guinness & Mahon at
25 the time?
26 A. Yes .
27 278 Q. On the face of it it looks just like a
28 Guinness & Mahon payment?
29 A. Yes .
1 279 Q. There are however if you like two aspects of
2 the matter which give rise to some possibility,
3 and I am not putting it any stronger than that,
4 of an "Ansbacher" connection. One is the fact
5 that it was a sterling draft?
6 A. Yes .
7 280 Q. Which was a little unusual if the money was
8 in Ireland in ordinary circumstances, and secondly
9 Redshank Investments. Have you heard of that
10 Company?
11 A. I have heard of that again in a professional
12 capacity, yes.
13 281 Q. Yes. That Redshank Investments, the Inspectors
14 believe, had a connection with McGonagle. The
15 Inspectors believe that?
16 A. Yes .
17 282 Q. We are not asking you to confirm or deny that?
18 A. Yes .
19 283 Q. And that it may well have had an "Ansbacher"
20 connection?
21 A. Yes .
22 284 Q. Do you know anything about that payment?
23 A. I have a vague memory I have to say.
24 285 Q. Yes?
25 A. But only that. I can't say in what context it is.
26 The other people named were partners in the firm.
27 So, it may be in that context that this payment
28 was made but I cannot...(INTERJECTION).
29 286 Q. It is like as if it is a division of some money
38
1 between partners in the Firm with Mr. McGonagle's
2 section going to Redshanks?
3 A. Indeed.
4 287 Q. Is that not what it looks like?
5 A. Indeed.
6 288 Q. The source of that fund, of those funds, are a
7 cause of concern to us. I wonder would you
8 think about that?
9 A. I will, yes.
10 289 Q. And would you revert to us with regard to that?
11 A. Yes, I will.
13 A. I can't recall now.
14 291 Q. Yes, I understand?
15 A. Yes.
16 292 Q. I understand that?
17 A. Yes.
18 293 Q. However, it may be worth while thinking about it?
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Certainly.
22 295 Q. The difficulty about this payment as far as we are
23 concerned is that it mentions you by name rather
24 than the Firm?
25 A. Indeed, yes.
26 296 Q. Of course we have to be very careful and we will
27 be very careful and certainly we will be very
28 careful in respect of any payment of £1,650?
29 A. Yes.
39
1 297 Q. Which is not even in 1984 an amazing sum of money?
2 A. Yes .
3 298 Q. However, at the same time we have to satisfy
4 ourselves that it does not have an "Ansbacher"
5 connection?
6 A. Yes, indeed.
7 299 Q. So, any assistance you can give us in that regard?
8 A. Fine, yes.
9 300 Q. Otherwise we may have to go and investigate it.
10 We have not really investigated it that much at
11 this stage?
12 A. Yes, okay.
13 301 Q. However, if you can satisfy us so be it?
14 A. Very well.
15 302 Q. We will just let it stand at that; all right?
16 A. Certainly.
17 303 Q. All right. That is one -- you might come back to
18 us on that, Mr. O'Shea?
19 A. Yes, I will.
20 304 Q. The other thing is this: I wonder would you just
21 show Mr. O'Shea number 2 9 as well (Same Handed),
22 Exhibit 8? That has -- that shows Redshank
23 Investments as being a Client of College Trustees.
24 You can take it that at that stage our information
25 is that College Trustees' funds, not necessarily all
26 of them but many of the College Trustees' funds
27 which they had invested for clients, were routed
28 for some inexplicable reason through "Ansbacher"?
29 A. Yes, I see.
1 305 Q. So, here you have a situation where we know that
2 Redshank Investments Limited was a College Trustee
3 client. We know that in 1985, which was the year
4 after that, it had informed various parties with
5 regard to the Registered Office and we know that
6 Redshank Investments is connected with the 1984
7 payment. We are of the belief but we cannot
8 mathematically prove it at this stage that Redshank
9 Investments was a Liam McGonagle company but we
10 believe that to be the case. Putting all of
11 those things together we had a certain concern?
12 A. Yes .
13 306 Q. And I will not put it any stronger than that;
14 all right?
15 A. Yes .
16 307 Q. The only other document I want to show you,
17 Mr. O'Shea, is this: It is a 18th May 1992
18 document. It is page 30 (Same Handed), Exhibit 9?
19 A. Thanks.
20 308 Q. That does not appear in your statement, Exhibit 6?
21 A. No, and I have no recollection of it.
22 309 Q. Yes?
23 A. I have no idea what it is for.
24 310 Q. I wonder would it be an earlier part of the £40,000
25 even though the £40,000 was there in December 1992?
26 Could it have been £50,000 and could this be £10,000
27 of it?
28 A. I don't think so.
29 311 Q. You do not think so?

1 A. No, I don't think so.
2 312 Q. You think it is separate from that. You do note
3 that they are talking about "Ansbacher" Limited?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 313 Q. Rather than Hamilton Ross?
6 A. Yes.
7 314 Q. However, you can take it that Hamilton Ross and
8 "Ansbacher" were interchangeable?
9 A. Indeed, yes.
10 315 Q. Names used by these parties?
11 A. Yes, indeed, yes.
12 316 Q. And I would not attach too much significance to
13 that?
14 A. Yes.
15 317 Q. However, you can see that it is a payment not to
16 Mr. McGonagle?
17 A. Yes, Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh.
18 318 Q. But to Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh?
19 A. Yes, I can see that. I can see that. I am --
20 I have no idea what for.
21 319 Q. I wonder could you investigate that? There is
22 bound to be a record of that somewhere?
23 A. Yes.
24 320 Q. It is only 1992?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I agree.
26 321 Q. Yes?
27 A. I agree.
28 322 Q. I wonder could you give us an explanation of that?
29 A. Certainly, okay.
42
1 323 Q. Have you any memory of it yourself?
2 A. None. Not at this point in time any way I don't
3 but I certainly will -- I mean we can check our
4 ledgers and find out from that; hopefully find
5 out from that.
6 324 Q. You see could I explain where we are going,
7 Mr. O'Shea?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 325 Q. So that everybody understands where we are?
10 A. Yes.
11 326 Q. We will have to consider all the evidence as to
12 whether Mr. McGonagle was a Client of "Ansbacher"?
13 A. Yes.
14 327 Q. Obviously I cannot tell you what the result of that
15 conclusion will be?
16 A. Yes.
17 328 Q. However, let us assume for a working hypothesis at
18 the moment that we concluded that he was a Client
19 of "Ansbacher"?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 329 Q. We then have to separately consider whether
22 Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh were Clients of
23 "Ansbacher"?
24 A. Yes.
25 330 Q. It is a separate consideration?
26 A. Yes.
27 331 Q. And we are highly conscious of that?
28 A. Yes.
29 332 Q. Of keeping it separate?
43
1 A. Yes.
2 333 Q. So, that is why we are particularly honing in
3 on this (indicating), Exhibit 9?
4 A. And we can come back to you on that.
5 334 Q. Yes?
6 A. I will come back to you on that.
7 335 Q. Yes. All right. That would be great. I wonder
8 when you are coming back to us on that?
9 A. Yes.
10 336 Q. Would you do us the courtesy of when you are
11 writing to us in the letter would you put a note
12 at the bottom of the letter to say that, "This
13 can be included as part of my sworn testimony"?
14 A. Sure.
15 337 Q. Do you understand that?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 338 Q. That will enable us then not to have you to
18 come back to swear it again?
19 A. Fine, okay.
20 339 Q. Do you understand?
21 A. Certainly.
22 340 Q. I think that may will be in everyone's interest
23 to do that?
24 A. Certainly, okay.
25 341 Q. I wonder could you do that reasonably quickly
26 because we are getting to the end of this phase
27 of our inquiries?
28 A. Yes.
29 342 Q. And we are obviously anxious to tidy it up fairly
44
1 quickly?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 343 Q. I think there is only one other thing that I have
4 to say to you and it is this: That Ms. Cummins had
5 a telephone call with you on the 27th February and
6 that is grand?
7 A. Yes.
8 344 Q. It was only a housekeeping telephone call?
9 A. Yes.
10 345 Q. There is no difficulty about it?
11 A. Right.
12 346 Q. However, the last sentence is:
13
14 "He also told me that Liam McGonagle

had arranged through Des Traynor for
15 a job to be done for the partners and
they were unaware of the extent of it
16 until relatively recently."
17
18 What were you referring to in that?
19 A. I presume we are referring to the payment in
20 1993 of the fee.
21 347 Q. Yes?
22 A. I presume that was it.
23 348 Q. Yes. Could it have been anything else?
24 A. I can't think of anything. No, it wouldn't
25 have been anything else.
27 A. No.
28 350 Q. That is grand?
29 A. Yes.
45
1 351 Q. I just wanted to check?
2 A. Yes, that is my...(INTERJECTION).
3 352 Q. That that was in fact the situation?
4 A. Yes, that is my recollection of it.
5 353 Q. That is your recollection?
6 A. But I mean you surprised me about that other payment
7 in 1984.
8 354 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
9 A. No, I have...(INTERJECTION).
10 355 Q. In 1984 or 1992? Which is more surprising to you?
11 A. No the -- not that one (indicating). The other
12 one in 1984 I think.
13 356 Q. 1984?
14 A. Isn't it the memo?
15 357 Q. Yes, I see?
16 A. On the 5th September 1984, Exhibit 7.
17 358 Q. Yes?
18 A. I am surprised at that. I have no recollection
19 of that.
20 359 Q. You have no recollection of that at all. I do
21 understand how these things can happen?
22 A. Yes.
23 360 Q. Without you having a recollection of them?
24 A. Yes.
25 361 Q. However, I wonder whatever about the 1984 one
26 which is mildly suspicious?
27 A. Yes.
28 362 Q. The 1992 one is a positive connection?
29 A. Yes.
46
1 363 Q. Which has to be explained?
2 A. Sure.
3 364 Q. I mean that is the position?
4 A. Yes, okay.
5 365 Q. All right?
6 A. Well, we can hopefully get that explanation from
7 you.
8 366 Q. Ms. Mackey?
9 MS. MACKEY: No, no questions.
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. O'Shea, thank you
11 very much indeed.
12 A. Thank you.
13 367 Q. That is actually everything we have to say to you
14 and thank you very much for all your cooperation
15 and we appreciate it greatly. We would appreciate
16 early replies. It would facilitate us greatly if
17 you could do that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 368 Q. Obviously part of the process is the signing of
20 the transcript?
21 A. Yes.
22 369 Q. Because it is included in the Legislation?
23 A. Yes, yes. I mean obviously...(INTERJECTION).
24 370 Q. So, in due course Ms. Cummins will be in
25 touch with your firm and you can make the
26 necessary arrangements?
27 A. So, I mean I can come in to sign it whenever
28 it is ready.
47
1 A. Thank you.
2 372 Q. And copies of the transcript can be got for a
3 payment of?
4 MS. CUMMINS: £60.
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Of £60.
6 A. Yes.
7 373 Q. All right?
8 A. Thank you.
9 374 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
10 A. Thank you.
11
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
48
i> v _
"
> VXXV Vts?^
NO'v^W-v
EScUVvYr ±
MICHAEL O'SHEA
I understand that I have been called to give evidence pursuant to the Inspectors'
powers set forth, inter alia, in Section 10(2) of the Companies Act, 1990.
I am here today because of the exercise of the Inspectors' right to compel my

attendance. I am not here voluntarily.
I am not prepared to answer questions voluntarily.
I understand the Inspectors have power to force me answer their questions, provided
always the questions are within the scope of their investigation. All answers I give
today are given as a result of the exercise of the Inspectors of their powers under
Section 10 and/or such other statutory powers as they have to compel answers and not
otherwise.
I have asked the Inspectors not to exercise their power to compel my testimony. They
have insisted I answer all questions under compulsion of law.
KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
INCORPORATING BELL BRANIGAN O'DONNELL & O'BRIEN
S O L I C I T O R S
20 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD DUBLIN 4
TEL 660 9799 FAX 660 9434
EMAIL: info@kmb.ie
www.kmb.ic
The Office of the Inspectors appointed b j J W 5 Our ref: MO'S/DF
High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.
3r d Floor
Trident House , ..
V;,:
Blackrock & ''
Co Dublin
16 March 2001
: Re: Ansbacher (C»vmairi Limited ("the Company")
Dear Inspectors,
I have had no dealings personally with the Company. However I believe the Firm of
Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh in which I am a partner have had the following
dealings.
1. In November 1993 thefirm was instructed by Cayman International Bank and

Trust Company Limited to pursue a guarantor on foot of a guarantee given to
Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited on behalf of a Cayman registered
company called Coral Reef Securities Limited. Proceedings were instituted
against the guarantor and were ultimately settled. Our fee of £3,210 and
outlay was discharged by the Company. The Solicitor who handled this
matter for the Company was Kevin Barry.
2. Also in 1993 a fee paid by a U.K. client of the Firm was lodged by the partner
who acted for this client with the late J.D. Traynor and this fee was
subsequently paid to the partners including me through Kentford Securities
Limited. The partner who handled this matter was the late Liam D.
McGonagle who was a personal friend of the late J.D. Traynor. The U.K.
client was not a client of the Company and did not avail of any of the services
provided by the Company. I believe Mr. Traynor merely facilitated my late
partner, Liam D. McGonagle and neither he nor the Company nor Kentford
Securities were paid a fee for this service. —
3. hi 1995 the Firm advised the Company in connection with a loan granted to
Columbia Investments (an unlimited Irish registered company) and also in
respect of a guarantee and pledge agreement by Columbia Investments
Limited to the Company in respect of loans made by the Company to two
Cayman Island registered companies. The Company discharged our fee of
£6,750 and outlay for this work which was handled by Olivia McCann, a
former assistant in the Finn.
MIl'ilAU. J. 0'M|i:.-\ R(*iliR I'. IJAl.l.AWI K I'KINX'i: li. DIXON Ki:VIN C. I1ARKV CIOUIX)\ J
1 U,t
ASSISTANT: I UI.MA I H:\RY AUUIIA R». I.\VI.OR
C'ONSn.lANTS: I..U'KI:NCT. K HRANKiAV MAKIINA f- o'fitlKMAN
4. Also in 1995 thefirm was instructed in relation to an application by the
Company to the High Court for leave to extend the time for filing Form 47
with the Companies Office in respect of the security referred to at 3 above.
The Company discharged our fee of £400 plus outlay for this work which was
again handled by Olivia McCann.
5. I have personally been involved in advising a number of clients who have had
or have a relationship with the Company and this advice has been given in the
context of McCracken and Moriarty Tribunals and statements and attendances
before you.
The Company has provided no service to me personally and I have not established
any trust managed by the Company nor to my knowledge am I the beneficiary of any
trust managed by the Company.
1 have not deposited any money with the Company or with Guinness & Mahon
(Ireland) Limited however Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh hasfrom time to time used
the services of Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited. It has deposited the Finn's
money and clients' money with that Bankfrom time to time and during one or both of
the Bank strikes it used banking facilities provided by that Bank.
Guinness & Mahon has provided a normal commercial loan to the partners in the firm
including me tofond the purchase of No. 18 Northumberland Road. This loan was
secured against the property purchased and our personal guarantees. It was not
secured on any funds held by the Company.
Apart from the service mentioned at 2 above, provided by Kentford Securities
Limited, no service has been provided to me by any of the other companies listed in
your letter namely, Amiens Securities Limited, Amiens Investments Limited, and
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited. The only services provided by Guinness &
Mahon (Ireland) Limited were those mentioned above in the preceding two
paragraphs.
No service has been provided to me by any of the companies mentioned in your letter
and established in the Channel Islands.
/
.T. ±b P-O'D- 3th September, 1984
Could you please lodge the attached cheque for

£8,250 Sterling to Sundry Persons and rive me fm,^
Iour
Sterling drafts aa follows:-
Michael O'Shea £1,650
1
. • 'i T. Dixon £1,650
Redshank
Investments £3,135
£8,250
I
"S
JDT/AJW
e*U\»\a<5 %
College Taistees Limited
DKA
/ 2nd May, 1985
H. M. Greffier,
Royal Court House,
St. Peter Port,
Guernsey. "~?S'CcQfS
J* -3A
• ii
Dear Sir,
RErnitANK INVESTMENTS LIMITED
The registered office and the post office box'number of the

above companies' was changed on 15th April, 1985. The regis-
tered office is now situated at«-
Plateau Mignot,
Rue des Cornets,
St. Peter Port,
Guernsey.
Correspondence should now be addressed to P.O. Sox 223.
Yours faithfully,
for COLLEGE TRUSTEES LIMITED,
P.O. tt«K 122. Si. /niton* O m n . Si. Julian* Arennc. St. !>i!Ufr Pon. Ouenuey, Channel Manila.
Tuicphinie: tliicrnnjv 2IHWI TVIr»: 4 H I M : ttcgliinftM t Cu«f»«y «7P

Appendix XV (103) (1) (!)
Pleaaereplyto:
42 FJtewflliam Square, Ansbacher Limited
Dublin 2. P.O. Box «I7. Ownd Oyaaa, Qymin htimh. Bririih Wat Indict
Tel: 765144/763065 Telephone:949-8633 Telnc<94305
Fax: 612035 FacrimO* (109!) 949-7946 (809) 9494267
18th May, 1992.

Konan Hedaond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Lialted,
91 Merrion Square,
PPBLIN 2.
C Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let »e havefforcollection anlrish
Poundacheque for IRS10,000 payable to Kennedy KeOonagla Ballagh
and debit the Sterling coat to Ansbaebar Malted Account
No.02/01087/81.
yours sincerely,
7p6<"
JDT/AJW
vS
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Wad Indies
/TirrijfiHiiM- JJmitntf Telephone No. 0—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness
t-T l»,ill
A/AM
J ACCOUNT NUMBER 00001642 p A Q e

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterling
3
i/tri/ iv .in/ 0/92 37.M9.59
37549.59
CARRIED FORWARD
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Waat Indies
Telephone No. 9—4063/4
PAMU.TON KO.Vj
1 Telex CP 306 Ceble Address Guinness
A/A34 .
J ACCOUNT NUMBER 00001.642 PAGE

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterling
4
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SOLICITORS
Office of the Inspectors appointed by the *j *£

High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
3 r d Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
14 December 2001 YOURREF: OURREF: DM/PC
MATTER: Ansbacher
Dear Sirs,
We act for Mr. Michael O'Shea, a partner in Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, Solicitors, 20
Northumberland Road, Dublin 4 who has requested us to write to you in response to your
letter to him dated 23 November 2001.
Having considered the "Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions" we are at a loss as to how the
information (such as it is) or the reasoning (or lack of it) justifies the "Preliminary
Conclusions" reached.
What is clear is that Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh was due a fee and it was paid. The partner
to whom it was paid gave Mr. Desmond Traynor the money and in due course caused it to be
returned to the partner in a manner that divided it between himself and other partners.
It is said the monies, part of which were received by Mr. O'Shea, came from Hamilton Ross
or an entity unknown to our client (a matter you assert but do not sustain by any evidence
disclosed). This does not prove your conclusions even if true (a matter not conceded or
accepted).
In short your "Preliminary Conclusions" that Mr. O'Shea was a client of Ansbacher are ill
founded.
No proof whatsoever has been produced to show that Mr. O'Shea was a client of Ansbacher.
He is not, and never was, a client of Ansbacher. Even allowing for your apparent broad
interpretation of "client", this word quite clearly has a specific meaning as defined in all the
standard dictionaries and under none of these definitions can Mr. O'Shea be held to be a
"client".
6 Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin 2, Ireland, DXI I Dublin, Tel +353 1614 5000, Fax +353 1 614 5001, www.mhc.ie, E-mail mail@mhc.ie
Mauricc R. C u m i n . Maevc Hayes, Anthony Burke, Declan Movlan, I.orcan Buckley, Hmer Ciilvarrv, Paul J. CI. F.gan, Colman P. C u r r a n , N o r a Larkin,
Dcclan Curran, R i d u n i A. Woulfe, Kevin Hoy, Occlan Black, l.iam Brazil, Ailbhe Gilvarry, John Kettle, David O ' D o n n e l l . Niall Michel, John Kehoe, Peter Mclnnes
Senior Assocuiti's Niamh Clarke. Marthcw Wales, Majella Do!.in. Gillian M e N a m a r a , Shane MacSweeney, Susan Ryan an alliance with
Carson McDowell
Carisiiltiints A. Dennor Mason, Conal J. Clancy, Rory I.. Ej;an in Belfast
Therefore we require your confirmation by return that no such conclusion will appear in your
Report.
Yours faithfully,

SOLICITORS
Office of the Inspectors appointed by the

High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
3 r d Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
15 January 2002 YOURREF: OURREF: DM/PC
MATTER: Ansbacher
Dear Sirs,
We write on behalf of Mr. Michael O'Shea.
Thank you for your letter of 21 December 2001 in response to ours of 14 December 2001.
Unfortunately, your refusal to amend any part of your preliminary conclusion is not
acceptable to our client who is outraged by it.
Our client understands the pressures upon you to produce a final report. However we must,
with respect, suggest that the treatment afforded our client is grossly unfair and does not
vindicate his rights in any respect.
Our client communicated with you by letter of 16 March 2001 written in response to a
request by you. The relevant portion of that letter is to be seen in paragraph number 2 in
which the following is said:-
"Also in 1993 a fee paid by a U.K. client of the Firm was lodged by the partner who
acted for this client with the late J.D. Traynor and this fee was subsequently paid to
the partners including me through Kentford Securities Limited. The partner who
handled this matter was the late Liam D. McGonagle who was a personal friend of
the late J.D. Traynor. The U.K. client was not a client of the Company and did not
avail of any of the services provided by the Company. I believe Mr. Traynor merely
facilitated my late partner Liam D. McGonagle and neither he nor the Company nor
Kentford Securities Limited were paid a fee for this service".
Your preliminary conclusion is premised upon a narrative that states as follows:-
6 Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin 2, Ireland, DXI 1 Dublin, Tel +353 1 614 5000, Fax +353 1 614 5001, www.mhc.ie, E-mail mail@mhc.ie
Maurice [I. Curtail, Maeve Hayes, Anthony liurkc, Dec],in Moylnn, Lorcan Buckley, Filler (iilvarry, Paul J. G. F.gail, Colman P. Curran, Nora Larkin,
IX-clan C u r r a n , Richard A. Woulte, Kevin Hoy, llecl.in Black, Liam Brazil. Ailbhe (".ilvarry, J o h n Kettle, David O ' D o n n e l l , Niall Michel, John Kehoe, Peter .Mcinnes
Senior Atsociutes Niainli Clarke, Matthew Wales, Majella Dolan, Gillian M c N a m a r a , Shane MacSweeney, Susan Ryan an alliance with
Carson McDowell
(Aiusulunt* A. Dermot Mason, Conal J. Clancy, Rory L. Egan in Belfast
"Mr. Michael O'Shea, Mr. Roger P. Ballagh and Mr. Terence D. E. Dixon are
Solicitors in the firm of Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, 20 Northumberland Road,
Dublin 4. Their involvement in Ansbacher arose out of their late partner's (Mr. Liam
McGonagle) long-term involvement in offshore banking.
During 1992, fees earned by the firm were deposited, at the suggestion of Mr.
McGonagle, with Mr. Desmond Traynor and ended up in an Ansbacher account. The
sum involved was £40,000 approximately. The money was left on deposit offshore for
some time and then shared out among the partners. The payments were made from a
Hamilton Ross account in Ansbacher. The IIB dealing tickets show that Mr. Ballagh
received over IR£11,530.00, Mr. O'Shea and Mr. Dixon received IR£6,243.00 each
and the firm received IR£4,877.00 and a company controlled by the late Mr. Liam
McGonagle stg£6,701.00.
^ All the partners who shared in that fund were thus clients of Ansbacher. The
Inspectors' formal decision on the late Mr. McGonagle is to be found elsewhere in the
report".
It is said that the preliminary conclusion, which you stand by, is:
"Mr. Michael J. O 'Shea, Mr. Roger Ballagh and Mr. Terence Dixon were clients of
Ansbacher".
The evidence supporting your conclusions is said to be a statement by Mr. Michael O'Shea,
evidence given by Michael O'Shea, the exhibits produced at that hearing (by you) and the
seven further exhibits set out.
Your "Preliminary Conclusions"
On page 10 of the transcript we find that Inspector O'Leary stated:
"We must identify the client of the company we are investigating... Ansbacher".
We note in the "foreign exchange dealing ticket (document 5)" appended to your preliminary
conclusion, it is expressly stated that the customer is "Hamilton Ross".
What Mr. O'Shea has said, which is uncontradicted, is that the fee paid in 1993, by a client of
Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, was subsequently divided among the partners including Mr.
O'Shea. Mr. McGonagle was the person who organised all this. He was the only person who
knew what he did to recover payment and effect a division.
In the circumstances, might we respectfully suggest that a fair analysis of this transaction, if
the transaction has any part to play in your report (which we cannot accept) would be as
follows:
"In 1993 Mr. Michael O'Shea, in his capacity as a partner in his Solicitors' practice,
received part of a fee earned by one of his fellow partners Mr. Liam McGonagle. Mr.
McGonagle took responsibility for recovering the fee from the partnership's client
and making the arrangements for its distribution among his fellow partners.
It now transpires that the payment to Mr. O'Shea was effected through a company
called Kentford Securities Limited. It now appears that the payment in question was
effected by Hamilton Ross drawing on an account maintained with another bank
(possibly Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited).
Mr. O 'Shea was not party to the arrangements that Mr. McGonagle put in place.
Whilst it is clear that Mr. O'Shea received a payment through Kentford Securities
Limited we have not been able to establish whether he was a client of Ansbacher".
We do not believe that there can be any objection to presenting your conclusion in that
manner. We are of the opinion that the current draft goes well beyond the evidence you refer
to reasonably sustains. We say this, subject always to your cogent explanation of the matters
we refer to above.
We have to say that we are gravely concerned by your refusal to engage in any meaningful
dialogue in relation to your preliminary conclusions. As a matter of common sense, your
approach is not fair. We have not seen the context in which the part of your report will be
read and as we detail, the factual narrative is unsound and the conclusion unwarranted and as
a matter of law, it is also a denial of our client's right to fair procedures. The fact that you
have written to our client clearly establishes that:-
(a) You are of the view that your conclusion constitutes "a finding or inference adverse
to Mr. O'Shea's interests, good name and/or reputation";
(b) That Mr.O' Shea has the right to be:
(i) informed in writing of the proposed finding or inference

(ii) informed of the evidence which is thought to justify the proposed finding or
inference
(iii) afforded the opportunity to prepare a written reply to the proposed finding or
inference
(iv) afforded, by way of further examination on oath, an opportunity to introduce
rebutting evidence and/or to address the Inspectors
(v) afforded an opportunity to cross-examine the relevant witnesses.
In circumstances where you have simply failed to engage on the case made by Mr. O'Shea in
response to the suggestion he should be described as a "client of Ansbacher" it is incumbent
on us, for the purposes of protecting his interest, good name and reputation, to take this
matter further.
Please note that we require the following:-
1. The opportunity of producing evidence that in relation to the distribution of the fee,
Mr. O'Shea had no knowledge of the arrangements being put in place by Mr.
McGonagle and absolutely no knowledge that the monies that he received had, at any
time (if that be the case, a matter we do not accept that you have evidence of) been
retained in an Ansbacher account.
2. We also require that we be entitled to address you. Clearly, the procedures you
yourself have adopted provide for the right to have an interplay of views between
yourselves and persons such as Mr. O'Shea for the purposes of permitting him to
appropriately vindicate his interest, good name and reputation.
In the event that we cannot make some headway in dealing with your preliminary conclusion,
^ either by following our procedural rights as identified above, or through some other means,
our client wishes the opportunity to cross-examine such witnesses as you have who can give
relevant evidence that the monies in question were ever in an Ansbacher account. Perhaps
you could identify these witnesses and indicate when they will be made available for cross-
examination and deliver a transcript of the evidence they have given.
We note in your procedures that where issues arise between any person and your good selves,
a procedure of seeking directions from the High Court to resolve issues is referred to. Should
we fail to reach an accommodation in relation to the provisions of your report to which we
refer, we reserve our right to be the subject matter of such application.
You will appreciate the impossible position Mr. O'Shea finds himself in. He is a solicitor
and an Officer of the High Court. He has received a share in a fee due to a legal practice of
which he was a partner. It is said, from circumstances of which he knows nothing, that part
of this money may have been held in an account operated by Ansbacher. We have to say,
with the greatest respect, that to see him designated as "a client of Ansbacher" with the
damage to his interests, good name and reputation that such a designation will bring, is
unfair, unjustified, unnecessary and irrational.
In relation to the monies paid to Mr. O'Shea, he objects to being dealt with in a section of
your report that also deals with other persons, unless you can explain why this should be the
manner of presentation. Further, the proposed draft of your report contains detail quite
irrelevant to your account and the conclusion you threaten to draw.
Finally, it seems to us a brief meeting between the representatives of yourselves (or better
still yourselves) and this office could go a very long way to defusing what on the face of it,
appears to be a confrontation that is entirely unnecessary. Mr. O'Shea has no problem
accepting that he received the payment in question. His objection is to being called a client
of Ansbacher, an institution the services of which he never knowingly utilised or wished to
utilise either personally or for any client
We assume that pending your response to this letter, no report will be published containing
the sections concerning Mr. O'Shea. If this is not to be the case, please tell us and we will
take the necessary action elsewhere.
Yours faithfully,

Appendix XV (104) Mr John Oppermann & Mrs Eileen
Oppermann
John Oppermann & Mrs Eileen Oppermann.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr. John Oppermann & Mrs Eileen Oppermann

dated 10 March 2000.
b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 15 August 1983 - JD Traynor to

Foreign Exchange.
c) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 18 August 1981 - JD Traynor to

Foreign Exchange.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr John Oppermann & Mrs Eileen

Oppermann.
a) Letter of 26 November 2001 from Rochford & Co Solicitors to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (104) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATIONS OF MR. JOHN OPPERMANN
& MRS. EILEEN OPPERMANN
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 10TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY B.L.
SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS
INTERVIEWEE: MR. JOHN OPPERMANN
MRS. EILEEN OPPERMANN
INSTRUCTED BY: MR. JOHN ROCHFORD
SOLICITOR
EQUITY HOUSE
16/17 UPPER ORMOND QUAY
DUBLIN 7.
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON FRIDAY, 10TH
2 MARCH 2 00 0
5 interview then Mr. &
6 Mrs. Oppermann. I am Declan Costello and on my
7 right is Ms. Mackey and we are two of the inspectors
8 which have been appointed by the High Court. I
9 should explain to you that this is not a Court, it
10 is not a Tribunal, it is an interview. What I would
11 propose to do would be to ask Ms. Mackey first to
12 ask you some questions and we will take it in
13 whichever order you like. Will we ask
14 Mrs. Oppermann first and then ask you some questions
15 that you might want to answer, Mr. Oppermann. I
16 should explain to you that if there is any problem
17 about any question that we ask and that you want to
18 get the advice from your solicitor about it, tell me
19 so and I will stop questioning you and you can ask
20 advice. Similarly if your solicitor wishes to
21 advise you on a question, I will stop and your
22 solicitor can then advise you accordingly. The
23 interview that we are going to have is under oath
24 and I will ask now our solicitor Ms. Cummins to
25 administer the oath first to you Mrs. Oppermann.
26
27
28
29
3
1 MRS. EILEEN OPPERMANN AND MR. JOHN OPPERMANN HAVING
2 BEEN SWORN WERE EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY THE
3 INSPECTORS
/i
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I will ask Ms. Mackey to
6 ask you some questions.
7 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mrs. Oppermann, you
8 received our letter of
9 20th January?
10 A. MRS. OPPERMANN: Yes.
11 2 Q. In that letter we asked you to provide us with a
12 statement and some documents?
13 A. Yes .
14 3 Q. We did not receive any from you. Did you intend to
15 give us some?
16 A. Yes, sorry, John...
17 4 Q. Do you want to speak to your solicitor for a moment?
18 A. Yes, may I speak to my solicitor?
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Certainly, yes.
20 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
21 A. I am sorry, that was a misunderstanding because I
22 thought when we gave it to our solicitor that he was
23 going to answer the questions.
24 5 Q. Do you have documents?
25 A. We have no documents at all.
26 6 Q. Do you have any in your possession at home in
27 relation to the questions that we asked?
28 A. No.
29 7 Q. Then what I propose to do is just ask you now the

1 questions we asked in the letter and perhaps you can
2 tell me instead of giving me a written statement.
3 First of all, the first thing we asked you was
4 whether you ever executed or caused to be executed a
5 Deed of Trust in the Cayman Islands? In other
6 words, have you ever set up a trust in the Cayman
7 Islands ?
8 A. Never.
9 8 Q. You never did?
10 A. No.
11 9 Q. As you know we are investigating the affairs of
12 Ansbacher Cayman which previously was known as
13 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. Another question that
14 we asked you in our letter was whether you ever
15 availed of a service that Ansbacher Cayman made
16 available to its clients, namely, the possibility to
17 use deposits in Ansbacher Cayman to lodge or
18 withdraw money here in Ireland, did you ever avail
19 of that facility?
20 A. Yes, we lodged money.
21 10 Q. You did. Perhaps you can tell me about that. Did
22 you actually have a deposit in Ansbacher Cayman?
23 A. I never knew it was Ansbacher Cayman until now, but
24 we gave Des money and as far as I knew he was taking
25 care of it and that was it.
26 11 Q. Maybe we can start at the beginning and maybe you
27 could tell me how did you first meet Mr. Traynor?
28 A. I can't remember how I actually met him. I think it
29 must have been through Johnny because when he came

1 out to the restaurant we became very close friends
2 with himself and his family and it started from
3 there.
4 12 Q. Mr. Traynor came to your restaurant?
5 A. Yes, with his family.
6 13 Q. Perhaps to fill in the background here I should get
7 a brief resume of your own career. You owned a
8 restaurant in Malahide?
9 A. In Malahide, yes.
10 14 Q. That restaurant was known as?
11 A. Johnny's Restaurant.
12 15 Q. Do you still run this restaurant?
13 A. No, we are retired.
14 16 Q. When did you retire and close the restaurant?
15 A. Around about 1989.
16 17 Q. You were running that restaurant from what date?
17 A. Roughly late 1973 up until 1989.
18 18 Q. During that period you say Mr. Traynor came to the
19 restaurant as a customer?
20 A. Yes, but was a friend as well.
21 19 Q. He was already a friend?
22 A. Not before he came to the restaurant, no.
23 20 Q. Tell me how you first came in to contact with him in
24 a business relationship in relation to this?
25 A. I think the business relationship started with my
26 husband and then I followed accordingly.
27 21 Q. Can you tell me at the point where you came into it
28 how that arose?
29 A. I can't really tell you the date but it would have
6
1 been some time maybe in the early 1980's I would
2 say.
3 22 Q. What happened at that time?
4 A. I would cash some of Johnny's salaries and I would
5 keep them and when Des would come out, I would give
6 him the money.
7 23 Q. At that time an account had been opened with
8 Mr. Traynor, is that what happened?
9 A. There was never any document signed. Des would just
10 take the money and that was the last I would hear of
11 it. I would never get a receipt only when I
12 requested it.
13 24 Q. Do you know how this started and is that something
14 Mr. Oppermann can tell me?
15 A. No, Mr. Oppermann might be able to tell you, I
16 couldn't tell you.
17 25 Q. Perhaps it might be opportune to actually ask
18 Mr. Oppermann at this stage to tell us about the
19 beginning of it. I think maybe he knows more about
20 the start of it than you do and we can come back to
21 you, Mrs. Oppermann, if necessary. I think that
22 might be a more useful way of doing it.
23 Mr. Oppermann if I can turn to you and just to get a
24 little bit about your background as well before we
25 begin, you and your wife were partners in this
26 business?
27 A. MR. OPPERMANN: That's right, yes.
28 26 Q. The restaurant was set up in 1973 as your wife says?
29 A. Approximately 1973, yes.

1 27 Q. Until 1989?
2 A. That's right.
3 28 Q. How did you come in contact with Mr. Traynor?
4 A. He used to come out with his family and dine in the
5 restaurant. Previously I think I met him prior to
6 opening the restaurant. Like everything else, you
7 get to know a person, particularly a person that is
8 coming in now and again. I asked him once where was
9 a good place for investment and the answer I got
10 was; "if you have any money, give it to me and I
11 will invest it for you." That is how it started.
12 Over the years we gave him money. They were very
13 small amounts, I wouldn't say at any time it was
14 more than £400 or £500, but we did on one occasion
15 when I had some bonds which were not doing very
16 well, I cashed them all in and gave them to him.
17 29 Q. Yes .
18 A. We never at any time asked him where the money was.
19 In fact, I can tell you at times we didn't know how
20 much we had given him, it was so small. We used to
21 get from him now and again a little piece of paper
22 with just how much we had invested with him and what
23 amount of profit we had made on it.
24 30 Q. Can you describe this piece of paper to me? Had it
25 the heading of a bank?
26 A. It was exactly like what you would get from till,
27 that is it, with nothing on it.
28 31 Q. No heading of the bank?
29 A. No heading, no nothing.
1 32 Q. Or investment company?
2 A. No, and it was type written.
3 33 Q. Had it your name on it, Mr. Oppermann?
4 A. No, nothing.
5 34 Q. Had it any reference number?
6 A. Nothing.
7 35 Q. How did you know it was yours?
8 A. We didn't. Let me say this to you; we had so much
9 confidence in that man that we never queried at any
10 time.
11 36 Q. Would he hand you this or post it to you?
12 A. He would hand it to us.
13 37 Q. When he came to the restaurant?
14 A. Yes. How we first came to know was I was away on
15 holidays and when I came back I had a letter from
16 the Tribunal.
17 38 Q. When was this, Mr. Oppermann?
18 A. It is about two years ago.
19 39 Q. This is the Moriarty Tribunal?
20 A. Correct. At first I asked them why they needed me
21 because I knew nothing about the Moriarty Tribunal,
22 so I went to see them with my solicitor because they
23 said to me, 'I think it would be in your favour to
24 bring a legal man with you.'
25 40 Q. Maybe if I could just cut you short a little bit
26 there and not to cut across you, but that was how
27 you discovered where your money was?
28 A. No, I only discovered afterwards when they sent us
29 some correspondence that I discovered that it was in
9
1 .... (INTERJECTION) .
2 41 Q. Ansbacher Cayman.
3 A. That's right.
4 42 Q. Can I ask you where did you think it was,
5 Mr. Oppermann?
6 A. I had no idea.
7 43 Q. Let me put it another way; did you think it was in
8 Ireland?
9 A. I am on oath and I would have to tell you that I
10 didn't know and it never bothered me because quite
11 frankly it was hard enough trying to run the
12 business and I really didn't think.
13 44 Q. You were telling me there about the money that you
14 would give to Mr. Traynor from time to time, that on
15 one occasion this was bonds that you had cashed.
16 A. Correct.
17 45 Q. On the other occasions what money would you give
18 him?
19 A. Some of my own salary.
20 46 Q. Your salary from?
21 A. From the restaurant.
22 47 Q. In other words, you had a company, had you?
23 A. Yes.
24 48 Q. That paid you a salary?
25 A. Correct.
26 49 Q. Your own position in the company that ran the
27 restaurant was?
28 A. I was managing director.
29 50 Q. So your salary cheques were as managing director?
10
1 A. Correct.
2 51 Q. We have to ascertain for this investigation the
3 nature of the money that was invested in Ansbacher
4 and so on, so I have to ask you whether that money
5 was declared to tax?
6 A. It was tax paid.
7 52 Q. It was tax paid already?
8 A. Yes, but on occasions he had a dinner party in the
9 restaurant, we will say, which was not very often
10 and he would say, 'look, I will lodge that to your
11 account.'
12 53 Q. The money for the dinner party?
13 A. Correct.
14 54 Q. So Mr. Traynor would do this?
15 A. Correct.
16 55 Q. In other words, this would be money that tax had not
17 been paid on and it would go straight into the
18 account?
19 A. Yes.
20 56 Q. When you were lodging the money, you would give Des
21 Traynor the cheque or whatever it was?
22 A. Yes.
23 57 Q. After that you left it to him?
24 A. I had no idea. The only time I knew that it was in
25 the Ansbacher was when I got this letter from the
26 Moriarty Tribunal.
27 58 Q. Yes, I understand.
28 A. That was the first I knew.
29 59 Q. When you got these little statements from time to
11
1 time, they showed you the balance of the account.
2 A. Yes.
3 60 Q. Did it also show you interest that had accumulated?
4 A. Yes.
5 61 Q. It did show you that?
6 A. Yes.
7 62 Q. Did you declare that interest to the Revenue?
8 A. I declared nothing to the Revenue.
9 63 Q. You declared nothing to the Revenue, okay. From
10 time to time you made withdrawals on this, did you?
11 A. I think we only withdrew money twice as far as I can
12 remember.
13 64 Q. Can you remember what those occasions were?
14 A. When we went on holidays.
15 65 Q. To get travellers cheques for example?
16 A. Correct.
17 66 Q. How would you go about that or what would you do if
18 you wanted money?
19 A. We just asked him and told him that we were going
20 away and we wanted some money. He either came out
21 or else we went and collected it.
22 67 Q. You would go where to collect it?
23 A. Into Guinness Mahon.
24 68 Q. Or else he would bring it out to you?
25 A. Correct.
26 69 Q. In what form would that money be given to you?
27 A. Cash.
28 70 Q. Did you ever go to Mr. Traynor's office in
29 Fitzwilliam Square?
12
1 A. Yes.
2 71 Q. To collect cash?
3 A. Correct.
4 72 Q. This was after he had left Guinness Mahon?
5 A. Yes, naturally, yes.
6 73 Q. What would happen when you would go there? Who
7 would you see?
8 A. We would see himself.
9 74 Q. You would see himself?
10 A. Yes.
11 75 Q. You never met anyone else there?
12 A. Except his secretary.
13 76 Q. Joan Williams?
14 A. Yes, Joan Williams.
15 77 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Padraig Collery?
16 A. You asked me something now and I don't know whether
17 it was Collery -- when he died we didn't know where
18 the money was.
19 78 Q. I was going to come to that actually.
20 A. We were told to go up to near Christchurch.
21 79 Q. First of all, can I ask you upon his death what did
22 you do in order to find out where your money was?
23 A. We had to call Joan Williams.
24 80 Q. You contacted Joan Williams of your own volition?
25 A. Yes, sure we didn't know where the money was and it
26 was some months afterwards I think.
27 81 Q. Joan Williams, what did she tell you?
28 A. She told us to go to this office in Christchurch
29 place.
13
1 82 Q. Winetavern Street?
2 A. Yes, Winetavern Street. The point I am getting to
3 is I don't know whether the man I met at that time
4 was Collery or some other man.
5 83 Q. But you met somebody in that office?
6 A. I did, yes.
7 84 Q. What did you say to them or what did they tell you?
8 A. I just went up and collected a cheque.
9 85 Q. This was when you actually wanted to get money on
10 this occasion, it was not to find out where your
11 money was?
12 A. No, I wanted the money to reinvest it.
13 86 Q. You wanted to close the account?
15 87 Q. To just get clear what you did, you contacted Joan
16 Williams and you told her you wanted to close the
17 account?
18 A. We asked her first of all where the money was?
19 88 Q. What did she tell you?
20 A. She said I will arrange for you to collect it. I am
21 not too sure at the time whether she said it is in
22 the Intercontinental Bank?
23 89 Q. Yes, Irish Intercontinental Bank.
24 A. I am not too sure whether she mentioned that name or
25 not.
26 90 Q. When you said to her, 'where is the money', you
27 actually asked her where it was?
28 A. Yes.
29 91 Q. What did she tell you?
14
1 A. She then told us to go and collect it in Winetavern
2 Street.
3 92 Q. She did not tell you where it actually was, did she?
4 A. No, no.
5 93 Q. You told her you wanted to close the account?
6 A. Correct.
7 94 Q. She said she would arrange that and you should go to
8 Winetavern Street and collect it?
9 A. That's right.
10 95 Q. You went there and you met a gentleman?
11 A. Yes, and he gave me a cheque and that is it.
12 96 Q. Did that represent the entire balance in your
13 account at that stage?
14 A. Correct.
15 97 Q. Did you get any documents saying that your account
16 was closed?
17 A. No.
18 98 Q. Nothing, just the cheque?
19 A. Yes.
20 99 Q. You were satisfied that was the full balance of your
21 account?
22 A. Absolutely, we never at any other time suspected
23 anything to be quite frank with you.
24 100 Q. That would be 1994 when Mr. Traynor died?
25 A. That's right, and I collected that money in 1995.
26 101 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death and before you closed the
27 accounts did you make any transactions or did you
28 lodge any money or withdraw any money between his
29 death and the closing?
15
1 A. No, nothing.
2 102 Q. You did nothing after his death?
3 A. No.
4 103 Q. When did you actually open this account, can you
5 remember the date of it?
6 A. God, I will be quite frank with you, I don't.
7 104 Q. Even roughly by reference to when you first met
8 Mr. Traynor?
9 A. Maybe 1974 or 1975, I am just trying to think when
10 we opened the restaurant.
11 105 Q. Mr. Oppermann, I have no more questions to ask you.
12 Sorry, did you want to say something there?
13 A. I was only going to say that the £35,000 we gave him
14 ....(INTERJECTION).
15 106 Q. Which was this £35,000?
16 A. This is what I was trying to say, I had some bonds
17 and at that particular period they were sliding, so
18 I cashed them all in and gave that £35,000 to
19 Traynor to invest.
20 107 Q. If I could just pass you a copy of an Allied Irish
21 Bank draft made out to Mrs. Oppermann (Exhibit 1).
22 A. That's it.
23 108 Q. Can you just confirm that for me? (SAME HANDED).
24 A. That's it.
25 109 Q. So you gave that to Mr. Traynor to lodge to your
26 account?
27 A. Correct, and that was made up of a cheque that we
28 put in for £17,000 and then the other one we cashed
29 with the Eagle Star here was for £20,000 and we kept
1 £3,000 of that and lodged the £18,000, so that made
2 up the £35,000.
3 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much
4 Mr. Oppermann and I have
5 no questions for Mrs. Oppermann either. You have
6 been very helpful.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you Mr. &
8 Mrs. Oppermann. We will
9 require you to come in again when the transcript of
10 this evidence has been typed up. It will all be
11 typed up in a few days time and we would ask you
12 both to come in just to sign the transcript. We can
13 send on a copy of it first to you if you want to see
14 it. Thank you very much.
15
16 END OF INTERVIEW
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
17
END OF INT
ai VlocrcV. 2ooo
.jm^-
£2,700.00v
50:00>;
£2,750.00
27.50
£2,777.s50 t
. •-. fi- v.!:."*'. •:•..

j.D.T. 18th August, 1981
Could yoa pl«u« arrmng* to l«t m bar* toaorrov •oroing

19th Aagnat £1,000 Starling la <60 TntvalLu* Ctuiqacs
la tta« s m of Mrs. B11««D Qpptnuum, 9 St. Jtm&m'm n m e t ,
Ifelabldo, Co. Dublin.
Debit tho co«t to G.M.C.T. A/A7 Account. f - ^ *
JDT/AJ1
\
clok
c
To'
J. J. Rochford B.C.L. JOHN ROCHFORD & CO Telephone 01 - 872 1499
P. A. Gibbons B.C.L. Solicitors Fax 01 - 872 1654

Equity House D.X.F.C. 1015
16/17 Upper Ormond Quay
Dublin 7
OurRef JR\IN\20581 Your Ref: C\006\MLC\MF 26 November 2001
Ms. Mary Cummins,
Solicitor, ^ . ,^
Ansbacher Tribunal, ^ ''
3rd Floor, Trident House,
Blackrock, CO. DUBLIN.
RE Our clients Mr and Mrs. Opperman.
Dear Ms. Cummins,
Thank you for your letter of the 23rd inst. sending me a copy of the Transcript.
This Transcript clearly shows that my clients gave monies to Mr. Traynor and
had no idea where it was invested.
I refer to the Inspector's letter dated 25\10\01 and to the copy documents
enclosed with it. I repeat that the Inspectors have no basis upon which to
conclude that Mr and Mrs. Opperman were clients of Ansbacher and it is clear
they never found out about Ansbacher until after the death of the late Mr. J.D.
Traynor.
My clients gave evidence to the Tribunal on 10\3\00 and on 25\5\01 Judge

Finnegan's Order upon which the Inspectors rely, was granted.
My clients are entitled to their good name. The Inspectors should not do
anything that will affect it.
Yours faithfully,
JOHN ROCHFORD &CO
VAT NO. F12905651

Appendix XV (105) Pettit International
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Pettit International.
a) Telex of 6 December 1983 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
b) Telex of 6 December 1983 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
c) Telex of 12 March 1982 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
d) Telex of 26 May 1983 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
e) Telex of 26 April 1983 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
f) Telex of 27 November 1982 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Pettit International.
a) Letter of 20 December 2001 - Masons Solicitors to Inspectors.
b) Letter of 28 February 2002 - Masons to the Secretary to the Inspectors.

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DATE! 6TH DECEMBER» t983
ATTN!- MIKE SHIELDS
RE! PETTIT INTERNATIONAL
PLEASE TRANSFER DLRS 30,000- (THIRTY THOUSAND US DLRS)

CLIENT'S U.S. DOLLAR HOLD A/C UITH ALLIED IRISH BANK,
BANKCENTREt BALLS8RID6E, DUBLIN «r ACCOUNT AM. 28020632
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A/C UITH ALLIED IRISH BANK, BANKCENTRE, BALLSBRIDGE, DUBLIN 4.
ACCOUNT NO. 28020632.
RE6ARDS,
MARTIN KEANE,
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DATE! 26/4/83
ATTNI- JOHN COLLINS / MIKE SHIELDS
RE! PETTIT INTERNATIONAL
PLEASE TRANSFER US DLRS 60,000- TO CLIENT'S US DOLLAR HOLD A/C NITH

ALLIED IRISH BANK, BANKCENTRE, BALLSSRID6E, DUBLIN 4. ACCOUNT NO.
28020632.
REGARDS,
BRENDA KINS - SECRETARY TO M.C. KEANE.
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MASONS
BY COURIER
Office of the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Your ref C/P08/NSPM
Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd. Our ref DS/RK
DUBLIN.16400.1
3rdrd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
For the Attention of: - His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary

- Ms Noreen Mackey B.L.
- Mr Paul Rowan FCA
- Mr Michael Cush S.C.
20 December 2001
Dear Sirs
PETTIT INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
We are instructed on behalf of Pettit International Limited and E G Pettit & Company in
relation to your letter of 14 th December 2001 in response to which we write.
Since the time of the events addressed in your letter, the ownership and structure of the Pettit
group of companies has substantially changed and the contents of your letter are entirely
new to the present directors and shareholders of Pettit International Limited and its related
companies. It is our clients' desire to assist the High Court appointed Inspectors and to
resolve any possible finding and/or inference which might be considered adverse to Pettit
International Limited.
Pettit International Limited was established by its then owners in 1974 to undertake the
business of providing professional engineering services outside Ireland and the United
Kingdom. The directors of the company during the time relevant to your letter were as
follows;
T. J. Harney, C. A. Odium, T. F. Dwane, P. F. Kelleher, S. F. Kelly, M. L. McNally, C. G.

O'Connell, T. J. O'Donovan.
The shareholders of the company during the same time were as follows;
T. J. Harney, C. A. Odium, T. F. Dwane, P. F. Kelleher, S. F. Kelly, M. L. McNally, C. G.

O'Connell, T. J. O'Donovan.
MASONS 61 Merrion Square Dublin 2 Ireland

T+353 (0)1 638 3838 F+353 (0)1 638 3888 DX 216 Dublin www.masons.com
'13ON BRISTOL EDINBURGH GLASGOW LEEDS MANCHESTER BRUSSELS DUBLIN HONG KONG GUANGZHOU SINGAPORE
ind nationalities are stated overleaf This office is regulated by the Law Society of Ireland
Pettit Internationa! Limited traded as an independent company until 1987. On 31 st August
1987 E.G. Pettit & Company acquired 42.8% of the shareholding of Pettit International
Limited. On the 2 ;,d October 1991 E. G. Pettit & Company acquired the remainder of the
shares in Pettit International Limited and on 7 t h October 1991 Pettit International Limited
became a subsidiary of Pettit Holdings Limited. In 1997 the current owners of the Pettit group
of companies took over the entire business by way of management buy-out, establishing
Pettit Engineering Group Limited for this purpose in 1997. Pettit International Limited is now
owned by Pettit Engineering Group Limited. The former directors and shareholders of Pettit
International Limited mentioned above have had no interest in any aspect of the business
since that time.
The events giving rise to your letter go back almost 20 years and our clients are currently
undertaking an analysis of available information. As you will appreciate the effluxion of time
since the events you raise may mean that some information is no longer available. However
at this time we can give an outline of the underlining circumstances which have given rise to
your letter.
One of the projects on which Pettit International Limited was engaged in the early 1980s as a
specialist engineer in design and supervision was the construction of a large cheese
manufacturing facility in the United States. That project continued for a number of years and
generated approximately US$ 4.5 million in engineering fee income for Pettit International
Limited. The fee income was placed on deposit in the bank account to which you have
referred before being remitted to Ireland and, as far as the present directors can determine,
was fully accounted for in the accounts of Pettit International Limited. At all times Pettit
International Limited has maintained its accounts and lodged appropriate copies of those
accounts with the Registrar of Companies.
We would emphasis that to the best of the knowledge and belief of the present directors all
fee income of Pettit International Limited was generated outside Ireland on international
engineering projects and subsequently repatriated to this country.
Our clients wish, if possible, to resolve this matter in early course and are happy to provide
further assistance for this purpose. We would be grateful if you would let us know if you wish
to consider any further information or clarify any aspects of this matter. It may be appropriate
for a meeting to take place to address any issues you may wish to clarify. However, in the
light of our clients' initial response you may consider it appropriate to review the significance
of your preliminary finding.
We look forward to hearing from you in relation to the foregoing at your early convenience.
Finally, for the avoidance of any doubt, we would be grateful if you would treat this letter as
notice within 21 days of the date of your letter that Pettit International Limited may wish to
provide you with a comprehensive written reply to your preliminary conclusion.
Yours faithfully,
!/.'I / n J:
MASONS
MASONS
BY COURIER
The Office of the Inspectors Appointed by Order Your ref C/P08

of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd ° u r r e f DS/RKiyDUBLiN. 17891.1
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
For the attention of Ms Frances Gaynor
^ 28 February 2002
Dear Sirs
P E T T I T I N T E R N A T I O N A L LTD.
We thank you for your fax letter of 21 February 2002 to which we write in response. W e have
also spoken over the telephone on 20 February concerning the issues raised in our letter of
12 February. We now write in reply to your letter of 21 February 2002.
1. Background to Submission
1.1 As the Inspectors are aware, the points raised in our letter of 12 February 2002 are
of great concern to our client, Pettit International Ltd. Whist we do not wish to
labour the point which has been fully set out in our recent letter, the central and
fundamental concern is that the Inspectors appear to have reached a Preliminary
Conclusion concerning our client and in doing so have determined that their
Preliminary Conclusion involves a finding of fact and /or inference which is adverse
to our clients interest, reputation or good name. The finding and/or inference which
the Inspectors consider adverse to our client's interest has not been specified.
Consequently, as we have explained, our client finds itself in great difficulty in
seeking to respond to the Inspectors as there has been no allegation against it of
malfeasance, wrongdoing or failure by it to comply with any law, regulation or
obligation of any nature either in this country or elsewhere. As we have said, from
our client's perspective, the Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusion that our client was a
client of Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd. ("Ansbacher") appears to carry with it the
presumption of wrongdoing which our client is unable to rebut or address because
no allegation has actually been laid against our client.
1.2 The second paragraph of your letter of 21 February 2002 in the last sentence adds
to our clients' sense of unease about the Inspectors' finding and/or inference which
C/,
iv I
MASONS 61 Merrion Square Dublin 2 Ireland

633 3S3S F <-353 -:0• 1 633 3SS8 DX 2 16 Dublin vvvvvv.masons.com
• , 'M I, •<••: • !Tr. i-UIÊLS /HTILIN HONGKONG GUANGZHOU SINGAPORE

they consider to be adverse to our client, it is stated in your letter that the
Inspectors will consider any further submissions by our client with a view to
finalising their conclusion about our client. The Preliminary Conclusion of the
Inspectors that our ciient was a client of Ansbacher has already, insofar as we and
our client can determine, been finalised. Consequently it is not understood by our
client in what way the Inspectors propose to finalise their conclusion nor is it
understood whether the conclusion referred to relates to findings and/or inferences
considered by the Inspectors to be adverse to our client or to any other matter.
1.3 Our client is, regrettably and with respect to the Inspectors, unable to confirm that it
has had a real and meaningful opportunity to address any conclusion, finding and/or
inference made by the Inspectors concerning our client or its business. Our client is
particularly concerned that it has been told in essence that it must surmise for itself
in what way its interest, reputation and good name are or may be adversely affected
by findings made and / or inferences drawn by the Inspectors.
Our client does not raise the foregoing concerns out of any disrespect for the
Inspectors or the process of reporting which they are undertaking. At no time has
our client sought to obstruct or delay the Inspectors or to obfuscate on any matter
within the its knowledge or that of its officers. On the contrary, our client has sought
to establish what it is the Inspectors wish to know and to provide such information.
As we have previously mentioned, the principal source of our client's knowledge
concerning the matters under investigation by the Inspectors, apart from formal
legal issues, is press comment, which we trust the Inspectors agree is not a reliable
source of information.
1.5 Our client is aware that the Inspectors are investigating the activities of Ansbacher
with a view to determining the extent (if any) to which that company may have
acted wrongfully or illegally in this country in operating accounts and which were or
may have been operated in a manner inconsistent with the Irish tax acts and / or
other legislation. Our client is also aware that the Inspectors, as part of the remit of
their investigation, are seeking to establish the identities of clients of Ansbacher in
this country who may have availed of the services of Ansbacher in a manner
inconsistent with Irish tax legislation.
1.6 The Inspectors' letter of 14 December 2001 provided the first indication to the
current directors of Pettit International Ltd. that the company was an account holder
with Ansbacher during the early 1980s. Since the Inspectors' letter of 14 December
2001 our client has endeavoured to investigate the precise circumstances
surrounding the operation of the said account. In our letter of 20 December 2001 to
the Inspectors our client provided an initial explanation of the operation of Pettit
International Ltd.'s business and of the relevant account.
2. Pettit International Ltd.
2.1 As explained in our letter of 20 December 2001, Pettit International Ltd. was
established by its then owners in 1974 to engage in the business of providing
professional engineering services outside Ireland and the United Kingdom. The
directors and shareholders of the company from its inception until 1987 are listed in
our letter of 20 December 2001. We have also explained the various changes in
the shareholding of Pettit International Ltd. (see the first paragraph on the second
page of our letter of 20 December 2001) which resulted in a management buy-out in
October 1997. Upon the completion of the management buy-out the previous
owners of the company from 1974 to 1997 ceased to have any involvement in the
management, operation or control of the company 1 , all of which passed to the
current directors. Pettit international Ltd. is now owned by Pettit Engineering Group
Ltd.
2.2 As mentioned, Pettit International Ltd. was set up to operate the international
engineering market excluding the United Kingdom and Ireland and for this reason it
was entitled to avail of Export Sales Relief on its business and so profits were not
subject to Corporation Tax.
3. Pettit international Ltd.'s Work in United States of America.
3.1 During the early 1980s, our client undertook work in the United States of America
on behalf of Express Foods Inc. In the first place our client performed engineering
design services for Express Foods Inc. in relation to an existing cheese plant in the
state of Vermont, USA in the early 1980s. At the same time our client entered
discussions with a subsidiary of Express Foods Inc., Carberry Milk Products, in
relation to a proposed Cheese, Whey and Alcohol Plant in the state of California.
Our client agreed to perform engineering services in relation to the plant and
commenced design work on this project in 1980/1981. A final version of the contract
for engineering services to be provided by Pettit International Ltd. on behalf of
Express Foods Inc. was executed in July 1984. The contract was entered into
between Pettit International Ltd. and Corona Constructors Inc., which company was
building the project on behalf of Express Foods Inc. The contract value was in the
region of US$3,646 million. In order to provide site supervision and project
management services locally in California, Pettit International Ltd. engaged
Integrated Project Sen/ices Inc. to act as site supervisor and project manager on
the project. The relevant contract between Pettit International and integrated
Project Services Inc. was entered into in October 1984.
4. Operation of Ansbacher Account.
4.1 As a consequence of our client's professional engineering activities in the United

States of America during the early 1980s it was (insofar as the current directors can
establish) believed appropriate at that time to establish convenient and accessible
US dollar banking facilities. The current directors have not been able to determine
why the account was set up. Logic suggests that exchange control restrictions,
exchange rate and interest rate fluctuations were factors which, at least in part,
motivated the original decision to open an account with Ansbacher.
4.2 A feature of large-scale construction projects such as that on which Pettit

International Ltd. were engaged in California is periodic stage payments for work
undertaken and the need to employ professionals on site away from home. The
Ansbacher account facilitated the operation of our client's United States-based
business in an efficient manner. Money earned by our client in the United States
was deposited in the account and expenses incurred in relation to personal, travel
and accommodation as well as other expenses incidental to Pettit International
Ltd.'s business were defrayed from the account. Fees earned in the United States
after deduction of operating expenses and other incidental costs were remitted to
Pettit International Ltd.'s bank account in Dublin which was an AIB US dollar hold
account.
4.3 As we have previously mentioned the events in question took place approximately
20 years ago and our client is currently undertaking a detailed analysis of all
1 With the exception of the Financial Director, Sean Kelly, who retired in April 2000
Ml
available information concerning the account and project in question in conjunction
with its auditors in order to establish as precisely as possible the full extent of
transactions into and out of the Ansbacher account. As a matters presently stand
our client has determined that receipts into the Ansbacher account amounted to
$2,896,315.77 of which sum a total of $2,494,165.77 was remitted from the
Ansbacher account to our client's US dollar hold account at AIB in Dublin. The
difference between the two sums is accounted for as follows:
(i) Bonus payments US$105,397.00
(ii) Unvouched expenses US$10,400.00
(iii) Airfares US$10,747.00
(iv) Interest disbursement US$45,300.00
(v) Bank charges US$2,713.64
(vi) Loan from Pettit International Ltd

to Integrated Projects Services Inc. US$10,000.00
(vii) Integrated Projects Services Inc. contract

payment US$270,000.00
4.4 To the extent our client and its auditors can identify any matter relating to the
account which may best be addressed with the Revenue Commissioners our client
will raise any such matter with the Revenue Commissioners. This process, as we
have mentioned, is currently ongoing.
4.5 As we have previously mentioned the fee income from the Californian project was
accounted for in our client's audited accounts at the relevant time. We note from
your letter of 21 February 2002 that we may, over the telephone, have given you to
understand that our client had specifically recorded the Ansbacher account in its
company records. We regret any misunderstanding on this issue. The point we
sought to make was that our client had accounted for the contents of the Ansbacher
account in its accounts but the account itself is not specifically referred to in the
company records.
4.6 As we have set out above, our client understands that the main focus of the
Inspectors' enquiries in relation to client of Ansbacher concerns clandestine
accounts which were used to move money out of Ireland and / or in a manner
inconsistent with or in breach of Irish tax laws. Insofar as our client and its directors
can determine its account at Ansbacher had none of the relevant characteristics. In
particular, our client wishes to re-iterate that before receipt of the Inspectors original
letter, they had no knowledge whatsoever of this account. However, after
conducting a thorough investigation, the following facts have become clear:
4.6.1 Our client has never denied that it was an account holder with Ansbacher.
Once the Inspectors informed our client of its Preliminary Conclusion our
client confirmed following the above investigations that it was an account
holder for legitimate purposes.
4.6.2 At all times Pettit International Ltd. operated the account it held at
Ansbacher for normal and lawful commercial purposes and to facilitate its
carrying out a large-scale engineering project in California in the early
1930s.
4.6.3 At no time (in so far as the current directors can establish) did Pettit
International Ltd. operate anything other than a legitimate bank account
with Ansbacher.
4.6.4 At no time did Pettit International Ltd. ever attempted to occlude its
identity as account holder for the relevant account. Pettit International
Ltd. did not try to hide behind an assumed name - the account was
opened in the name of Pettit International Ltd. and operated in the name
of Pettit International Ltd.
4.6.5 Our client understands that one of the characteristics of non-resident

accounts under investigation by the Inspectors is operation of the account
by an intermediary who kept all details of account transactions on behalf
of account holders in this country. At no time did Pettit International
endeavour to conduct transactions in relation to its account at Ansbacher
via any undisclosed or clandestine intermediary or agent. Transactions
were effected through standard banking channels, again with no attempt
on the part of Pettit International to occlude or obscure the nature and
purpose of transactions or its own identity.
4.6.6 Transactions to the account were stage-payments under the above

mentioned construction contract and originated in California/Vermont.
Transactions out of the account either related to the performance of the
engineering contract referred to above by our client or, in relation to the
vast majority, were remittances from the Ansbacher account to our client's
AIB US dollar account in Dublin. Thereafter sums remitted to Ireland were
audited and accounted for in our client's relevant annual accounts.
4.6.7 At no time did Pettit International Ltd. transfer any funds from this country
to its Ansbacher account.
4.6.8 By virtue of Pettit International Ltd.'s tax exempt status for Corporation
Tax, there would appear to be no reason why it would wish to, or benefit
from, any effort to deal with its fee income in a manor inconsistent with or
in breach of Irish tax legislation (or such legislation in any other relevant
jurisdiction).
4.7 We enclose with this submission copies of bank statements from Ansbacher from 1
April 1982 to 30 June 1987. There were, in fact, two accounts, a Call Deposit and a
Current Account. The Call Deposit account earned interest where as the Current
Account was used for payments out of the account. A further record has been
located of transactions on the account from July 1987 to 3 December 1991 on
which date the account was closed, a copy of which is also enclosed. Our client
has made contact with Ansbacher and requested a statement for the period July
1987 to December 1991 which can be provided on receipt to the Inspectors. W e
also enclose bank statements from AIB concerning our client's US dollar hold
account operated between 25 November 1980 and 12 October 1988.
4.8 In our client's respectful submission, the enclosed copies of bank statements verify
the explanation of the operation of the account provided above.
Ml
5. Conclusion
5.1 Our client has been unable to determine any impropriety, malfeasance or
wrongdoing on the part of Pettit International Ltd in relation to the Ansbacher
account which it operated at all times transparently as a regular and legitimate
business bank account.
5.2 Should our client identify any transactions in relation to the Pettit International Ltd.
Ansbacher account which it is unable readily to reconcile it will, if appropriate, raise
the matter with the Revenue Commissioners.
5.3 Finally, we wish to add the very serious concern which our client has as to the
damage which could be caused to its reputation if its name is associated with those
of parties who have been involved in defrauding the Revenue Commissioners. It is
of course vital that the Inspectors do not allow their investigations to operate to
cause prejudice to innocent parties such as our client. There is no suggestion at
present (of which we or our client are aware) that our client is guilty of any
wrongdoing. Whilst Pettit International Ltd. had an account with Ansbacher, the
account has none of the characteristics of the accounts in which the Inspectors are
(quite properly) interested. In the circumstances, our client asks that the Inspectors
take special care to ensure that no 'collateral' damage is caused to it as a
consequence of the Inspectors' investigations and report.
If it appears to the Inspectors that they wish to raise any question or query, or if they wish to
consider any other documentation they consider relevant, our client will endeavour to
respond as expeditiously as possible.
Yours faithfully,
MASONS
End.
Appendix XV (106) Dr Michael Phelan
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Dr
Michael Phelan.
a) Facsimile of 17 December 1993 - JD Traynor to Henry Ansbacher & Co

Limited.
b) Letter of 17 December 1993 - Hamilton Ross & Co to IIB.
c) Letter of 5 July 1994 - Cayman International bank and Trust Company

Limited to Joan Williams.
d) Letter of 4 July 1994 - Joan Williams to Cayman International bank and

Trust Company Limited.
e) Letter of 21 June 1993 - Hamilton Ross & Co to IIB.

TakPB 5144/676 3065
42 FfTZWILUAM SQUARE
61 2035 DUBLIN 2
gACSIMILB T8AMSMISSI0H
Tos Henry Ansbacher & Co. Ltd. ?»* Wo. 0044 71 626 0839
Attention; Mr. Andy Love. SSfefil 17th December, 1993.
From: J.D. Traynor. Total.

(incl.^thla Seat): 1
Or. Michael Phelan, who has called and collected cash from
Hanry Ansbacher on previous occasions, will ring you,
probably on Tuesday next, with a view to calling to your
office at a mutually convenient tine to collect Stg.£5,000
in cash.
Dr. Phelan is the holder of British Passport No.269539U and
he has said he will bring this with hint for identification
purposes.
Arrangements are being made to transfer St9.£5,050 to your
Account at Royal Bank of Scotland, Corporate Banking Office,
Lombard Street.
I would be grateful if you could make the necessary
arrangements to facilitate Dr. Phelan in this way. If
there is a problem, perhaps you could telephone me.
Kind regards.
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
: . •.. - .......
17th Deeeofeer, 1993.
Ranan Redmond, #
Corporate Servioes, ... ... . .. .
Iriah Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Marxian Square,
tSSOSL
'?r«./nor. ......-
Could you plaasa arrange to transfer Stg>C5,0S0.00 a« quickly

as possible to
.o Royal. Sank. of.Spotland
ne;iry ^ Corporate~.»nKiriq Offlea
office .XionamJtf^yStafc'^j;';^- • •
in
: c < i ' : , ; Sort Codet 1 C W V o V n : '' . '
I
for Account} ,; Henitf Ansbacher: * C o * Limited
r: ' a£ Account'jroi2000i 900 •
' • I T J, , *
it •' CHAPSHb.701370 ,, :, •
Xt would be appreciated if thasa funds could be in place on
Tuesday.next.21st.
'. ' T"*u'r-.« i • v ,
Please debitthe coat : to Hamilton Rosa Account Moi 02/01354/81
r
• •> • ••» 4.1 Ji.-i^:.:, ...... ' :

Tours sincerely, n,.
yyr HMtXMOM HOBS CO. K B B B &
DPC . - Please debit A/A20

jpr/AOW
t*0» C.l.tt.l.v.
07/08/94 111 10 tMOO
CMMS^MMI
PAteUr
OmAQmmm
" " S J t IntonMrtloiwrf mvvwMM
NJSX Trust Group TitoilhMwHaMaaaM
TtUttCPOM
ViaFaadxnllB
#011-3531-6612-033
TUspafsadly
3 M y , 1994
JAFal
/"s ifeJoanWBiama
CRHplc
v ) 42HmriDi«nSqpiie
Dublin 2, M a n d
DearJban,
Maqrthaakaftryoarto.
W e Incve made wmnfcmcnttfarDr. 1 M B to pkkrai STF. £10^00000ftomBony
Aubadwr.Loadoavi&Att^Lorve. 8kmH^caaaotboidQi*av«Rd^lB|yBXDr.
F h d m c m i Andy Love literfldiweakfaritemtowtifftwiiabladaiaaaitfmoflortho
cuh to be ooHccted.
I tuggeit yon lodge thofindsto the Suudiy Sub Ckiuniuiji lOCOBnt- 02/01062/81.
HKVB A good holiday -will contact you nponyoar return.

Rofaxds,
OuwnMv.btonMO,MMta* I* tt Urn, fchw* Onww Mm* MWiVWnWw*

Appendix XV (106)(l)(d)
r
/^:«B5144«7630M
m
« 1 203S
. 42 FRRZWLLIAMÔ^
DUBLIN 2
Tot Cayman international Bank tax Bo. 001 809 9495267

and Trust Company Liaitad.
Attentions Mr. J.A. Furze.. Pate? 4th July, 1994.
TEA *»» MIII™. Ita.nhMU, ,
Dear John,
I wonder can you held ae please.
Dr.. Michael Phelan (an old Client for whoa wa have fund*
here) wishes to collect Stg.EI0,000 in cash in London.
The last time ha did this was in December last and at that
tine we sat up the arrangement with Mr. Andy Love in
Henry Ansbacher ftCo. in London.
Knowing tha usual form in Henry Ansbacher there is no point
in as giving thee a'-reqtiest and X wonder therefore if you
could put the necessary arrangements in place for us.
As I say, he has called on-several occasions previously .
^ Re is the holder of British Passport No.269539U and would
bring this with bin for identification purposes. Once
the arrangements are in place X would ask hia to ring
Ansbacher to arrange a mutually suitable tine for hia to
call. '
With regard to the transfer of funds to Henry Ansbacher to
cover this perhaps you could advise whether you would
prefer to do the transfer yourself and X could then arrange
with XXB to reimburse whichever Account you Indicate -
presumably 02/01062/81 - or alternatively! could arrange to
. transfer the 810,050.00 from Imprest Account- and reimburse
i that Account.
' Please advise if you can handle and also bow you wish to deal
with the funds. As X am going on holiday for about tan
, days at the end of this week I would appreciate hearing from
I you soon as possible.
Regards,
Yours sincerely.
s-
21st June, 1993.
Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services*
Irish- Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91- Merrion .Square,."
pqgM*-?^ '
r.irr,f< .At. .
i
i
Q)
-Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to transfer 8tg.E8,050.00 as quickly
as possible to
Royal Bank of Scotland
.ii» ./>-...incorporate Banking Office
: 67.'Lombard Strait "
•K>t>j r ch- ecu. t- 'London *BC3P 3DL'- '
Sort Coda: 16 04 OOT
for' Account':-^ Henry Ansbacher a Co. Limited
Account No.20001900
CHAPS Mo. 701570
It ia Important that these funds should be in place by the end
of.the week ao -your help-would be appreciated.
"O
Pleaae debit the ooat to Hamilton Roaa Account Mo.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
. c. ' - •
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED

1 * • * » •
DPC - Please debit A/A20.
/AJn
Appendix XV (107) Ms Marily Power
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Marily Power.
a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Marily Power dated 14 March 2000.
b) Undated draft deed of settlement - JA Furze & GMCT.
c) Statement of Ms Marily Power dated 29 February 2000.
d) Guinness and Mahon statement of 14 March 1978 re GMCT.
e) Guinness and Mahon statement of 31 January 1970 re GMCT.
f) Guinness and Mahon statement of 15 December 1977 re GMCT.
g) Guinness and Mahon statement of 2 February 1978 re GMCT.
h) Telex of 19 March 1986 - Guinness Mahon London to Guinness and

Mahon.
Appendix XV (107) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. MARILY POWER
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 14TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MS. MARILY POWER

I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MS. M. POWER MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MR. ROWAN
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 14TH MARCH 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning
5 Ms. Power. We will start
6 our interview now. I am Declan Costello and on my
7 right is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan.
8 We, as you know, have been appointed inspectors by
9 the Order of The High Court. This is not a Court,
10 as you know. This is not a tribunal. This is an
11 interview.
12 MS. POWER: Yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is an interview. Your
14 evidence is going to be
15 taken under Oath and I would ask our solicitor now,
16 Ms. Cummins, to administer the Oath to you.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MS. MARILY POWER, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Ms. Power, we have
5 received your statement,
6 which you have given us?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. What I want to do is I want to ask you some
9 questions arising from the matters that are raised
10 in the statement and some questions on some of the
11 documents that we have in the case?
12 A. Yes.
13 3 Q. Perhaps, before I go into any detail you might give
14 us some background, your own personal background,
15 when you first came to Ireland and how you came in
16 contact with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin? Perhaps,
17 you would tell us about that, would you?
18 A. Well, I came into contact with Guinness & Mahon in
19 Dublin through a friend in England who knew somebody
20 who worked there. He was actually a solicitor and
21 he was married to a friend of mine.
22 4 Q. Yes?
23 A. And that is how I got to Guinness & Mahon. I didn't
24 have any connection with them prior to that.
25 5 Q. Have you been living in Ireland all your life?
26 A. No, no.
27 6 Q. Or when did you come to live here?
28 A. No, I came here -- I lived in England my early years
29 and, as I said in the statement, my mother is
5
1 American and I have dual citizenship. You are
2 entitled to be American if you have one American
3 parent. I am sure you know all of this.
4 7 Q. Yes?
5 A. And up until the age I was 26 I must have lived
6 there. I did live there for a time.
7 8 Q. Lived where?
8 A. In America.
9 9 Q. In America?
10 A. Yes.
11 10 Q. Yes?
12 A. And I worked there in New York for a bit and I then
13 -- my parents -- my father was quite a lot older if
14 you like. He ...(INTERJECTION).
15 11 Q. Was he English?
16 A. Well, he was Irish English.
17 12 Q. Yes?
18 A. He was born in England of Irish parents.
19 13 Q. Yes?
20 A. And when he retired they enjoyed their horses and
21 they wanted to have a stud farm here. So, they came
22 over here and at that particular time I actually
23 went to Australia. That was at the end of 1960's.
24 I went to Australia and I was in Australia for three
25 years or so.
26 14 Q. Yes?
27 A. And I enjoyed that very much.
28 15 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I came back to Ireland to see how they were
6
1 doing with their stud farm and I helped them out as
2 best I could but I wasn't sure at that stage where I
3 was going to be but I sort of got dug in at that
4 stage.
5 16 Q. To Ireland?
6 A. To Ireland, yes.
7 17 Q. To living in Ireland?
8 A. Yes and ...(INTERJECTION).
9 18 Q. Yes. We know that you eventually established these
10 trusts and entered into agreements in relation to
11 the trust in 1977. How long before that had you
12 come to Ireland and been living in Ireland?
13 A. Well, I came to Ireland in the middle of 1970.
14 19 Q. In the middle of the 1970's?
15 A. Yes.
16 20 Q. Two or three years before you entered into this
17 arrangement?
18 A. Yes.
19 21 Q. Yes. Were your parents carrying on their stud farm
20 in Ireland at that time?
21 A. Yes.
22 22 Q. What was the name of that stud farm?
23 A. Ashfield.
24 23 Q. Ashfield?
25 A. Ashfield Stud.
26 24 Q. Did that continue on for some years?
27 A. No, my father died in 1978.
28 25 Q. I see?
29 A. And ...(INTERJECTION).
7
1 26 Q. I see?
2 A. We stopped not long after that.
3 27 Q. Because you yourself opened a stud farm, did you
4 not? You started a stud farm?
5 A. Yes. Well, basically I bought horses in partnership
6 with a friend of mine and we called it Suma Stud.
7 We actually had no premises.
8 28 Q. I see?
10 29 Q. I see?
11 A. But it has grown on since then.
12 30 Q. I see. No, it is just I want to get clear there was
13 -- your parents had a stud farm and had land,
14 presumably?
15 A. Yes.
16 31 Q. Where was that?
17 A. Where I live now.
18 32 Q. Yes?
19 A. It is near Navan.
20 33 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 34 Q. What was the name of that house?
23 A. It is Ashfield.
24 35 Q. Ashfield?
25 A. Ashfield.
26 36 Q. Yes?
27 A. Bow Park.
28 37 Q. Yes?
29 A. Near Navan.
8
1 38 Q. Did you live there then after your father died?
2 A. Yes.
3 39 Q. With your mother?
4 A. I still live there.
5 40 Q. You still live there?
6 A. Yes.
7 41 Q. You have been living there since you returned from
8 ...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I live with my mother.
10 42 Q. With your mother there?
11 A. Yes, I am one of four children and the others -- I
12 have two brothers in the States.
13 43 Q. Yes. I just want to get clear, the ownership of the
14 land in Ashfield is that yours or is that your
15 mothers?
16 A. No, it is my mothers.
17 44 Q. It is your mothers?
18 A. Yes.
19 45 Q. However, you carry on this stud farm there on the
20 land, is that right?
21 A. I carry on a stud farm now on her land, yes.
22 46 Q. On her land?
23 A. Yes.
24 47 Q. I want your assistance now about the contacts you
25 made and about the establishment of a trust in
26 the Cayman Islands. Was this as a result -- did you
27 decide or consider doing such a thing as a result of
28 the fact that you became entitled to an inheritance
29 in the United States?
9
1 A. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 49 Q. Would you tell me a little bit about that?
5 A. Well, this was an inheritance. My mother was the
6 last of a -- she was the only remaining person if
7 you like. She had a sister who died when she was
8 young. Her mother had no sisters and she was the
9 last of ...(INTERJECTION).
10 50 Q. Of her family?
11 A. Of her family.
12 51 Q. Yes?
13 A. Until she had the four of us.
14 52 Q. Yes?
15 A. And this trust was established for her by -- I don't
16 even know. I think it was a cousin of her -- I
17 think it was from the -- I don't even know which
18 side of the family it was from.
19 53 Q. Yes?
20 A. But it was established back in the 1930's.
21 54 Q. Yes?
22 A. And at the time it was always felt that she was the
23 last person and she would be the final recipient if
24 you like. It was to be dispersed then.
25 55 Q. Yes?
26 A. But, in fact, there was a different view taken by
27 solicitors, lawyers, in New York and they decided it
28 should be split and that was when we came into it.
29 56 Q. Yes?
10
1 A. And all the family members who were existing at the
2 time received an equal portion of this trust.
3 57 Q. Yes. You became entitled to a part?
4 A. So, I became -- at that stage I didn't know -- I
5 mean we always thought it was my mothers.
6 58 Q. Yes?
7 A. We regarded it as hers in fact.
8 59 Q. Yes. However, you became entitled to a share?
9 A. I became entitled to my share.
10 60 Q. In this trust?
11 A. Yes .
12 61 Q. It was as a result of this you approached
13 Guinness & Mahon then with a view to taking, giving
14 you, advise in relation to the money that you were
15 getting?
16 A. No, I didn't. If I -- to be honest none of this --
17 how can I put it? Somebody somewhere in America --
18 I am not very good on financial matters. Thus I am
19 sitting here.
20 62 Q. Yes?
21 A. Somebody somewhere told me that it was an idea for
22 me to put this money into -- keep it in dollars. I
23 wasn't sure at the time whether I was going to stay
24 in Ireland or whether I was going back to America or
25 what I was going to do.
26 63 Q. Yes?
27 A. I don't even know how Guinness & Mahon's name came
28 up other than the fact that this person said that
29 they had a Bank in Ireland, where I was living, and

1 also in the Cayman. So, I do not even know who --
2 whether it was from Morgan Guarantee or who it was
3 who first got in touch with Guinness & Mahon but I
4 wasn't in touch with them here until after the thing
5 was established over there.
6 64 Q. Where did you get in touch with them then?
7 A. Sorry?
8 65 Q. Where did you get in touch with them then? I mean
9 they must have ...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Well, somebody somewhere in the States, who was
11 distributing or dispersing this on my behalf, they
12 made the arrangements there.
13 66 Q. Where?
14 A. From New York.
15 67 Q. From New York?
16 A. Yes .
17 68 Q. However, they must have been in touch with you in
18 telling you about it, were they?
19 A. Yes, I am sure they were. I just honestly -- as I
20 said somebody must have said that and I really don't
21 know who it was.
22 69 Q. However, you must have agreed to it?
23 A. Yes .
24 70 Q. Yes. However, you mentioned earlier about a
25 solicitor who is married to a friend of yours?
26 A. Yes .
27 71 Q. How did he come into the picture?
28 A. Well, I asked him where he would suggest that I
29 went.
1 72 Q. Yes. He suggested Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. And he said Guinness & Mahon.
3 73 Q. Yes. Did you go to Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. I did subsequently, yes.
5 74 Q. When was the first time you went to Guinness & Mahon
6 in Dublin here?
7 A. I would imagine it was sometime after this trust was
8 established in 1997.
9 75 Q. Yes?
10 A. 1998.
11 76 Q. Yes?
12 A. Early 1998.
13 77 Q. We have correspondance ...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. I only know what I have read since because I only
15 happen to have those things left.
16 78 Q. MS. MACKEY: 1977 or 1978, is it?
17 A. Yes.
18 79 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 80 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The letters which we have,
21 which I think you gave us,
22 are April 1977?
23 A. Right.
24 81 Q. Would that be correct?
25 A. I am sure it is if that is ...(INTERJECTION).
26 82 Q. Was that the first time that you personally made
27 contact with Guinness & Mahon here in Dublin?
28 A. Yes, it would be.
29 83 Q. I want you to tell me what you did? Did you go into
13
1 the office?
2 A. Yes, I would have gone into the office.
3 84 Q. Yes. Who did you see?
4 A. Martin Keane.
5 85 Q. Martin Keane?
6 A. Yes.
7 86 Q. Was Mr. Keane the person that you dealt with in
8 Guinness & Mahon?
9 A. Yes.
10 87 Q. All the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 88 Q. Did you have your own solicitor at the time?
13 A. No.
14 89 Q. Did you have your own accountant at the time?
15 A. No.
16 90 Q. You were dependent entirely on what Mr. Keane told
17 you in relation to this transaction?
18 A. Yes.
19 91 Q. What did he tell you about discretionary trusts?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 92 Q. Sorry?
22 A. I do not remember anything. I can't tell you.
23 93 Q. Had you ever heard of discretionary trusts before?
24 A. No.
25 94 Q. You must have been told something by him about it?
26 A. I don't remember anything that I was told about it
27 by him, you know. I mean ...(INTERJECTION).
28 95 Q. This correspondance that you have given us, have you
29 looked at it recently?
14
1 A. I just glanced through it. As I say I don't really
2 understand it. I mean I have a habit, if you like,
3 of passing over things to other people.
4 96 Q. Were you not told what the effect of this
5 arrangement was to be?
6 A. Well, I understood how it was to work.
7 97 Q. Tell me what you understood?
8 A. Well, that I had these funds there and they would be
9 able to receive them here and I could withdraw the
10 money here in Ireland.
11 98 Q. When you say; "they would receive them here" that is
12 Guinness & Mahon?
13 A. Yes.
14 99 Q. Would receive them here?
15 A. Yes.
16 100 Q. You understood that the funds would be in the
17 Cayman, that they would be transferred to Dublin,
18 and that you could use them in Dublin?
19 A. Yes.
20 101 Q. That was your understanding?
21 A. Yes.
22 102 Q. Could I just go back a little bit in relation to the
23 trust funds that you became entitled to? Do you
24 remember how much was involved? How much money you
25 were coming into?
26 A. Well ...(INTERJECTION).
27 103 Q. About?
28 A. Well, I think there is -- it was all in shares.
29 104 Q. Yes. However, the value, the approximate value?
15
1 A. I think it was approximately $175,000.
2 105 Q. Dollars?
3 A. Yes.
4 106 Q. That you, as one of the beneficiaries, were entitled
5 to?
6 A. Yes.
7 107 Q. They were in shares?
8 A. Yes.
9 108 Q. Do you remember what was the transaction? Were the
10 shares to be transferred down to Cayman?
11 A. I think that is it, yes.
12 109 Q. Yes. They were to be ...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I think that is what is said in the papers there.
14 110 Q. Yes. They were to be transferred to Cayman. Then
15 do you remember about this Jumelol company? Do you
16 remember about this company been established?
17 A. Yes.
18 111 Q. Tell me about that?
19 A. Well, just that they told me that it would be put
20 into a company, which I could rename, which I did.
21 112 Q. Which you did?
22 A. Yes.
23 113 Q. Yes. The shares would be put into the company?
24 A. Yes or, as I say, whatever way they work it out.
25 114 Q. Yes?
26 A. There was -- I think it was a trust company.
27 115 Q. Yes?
28 A. Jumelol Trust.
29 116 Q. You have given us a document here Ms. Power which
16
1 shows that a trust was to be established?
2 A. Yes.
3 117 Q. And who the trustee was?
4 A. Yes.
5 118 Q. Do you remember that?
6 A. Not really.
7 119 Q. Yes?
8 A. I left it all to them.
9 120 Q. Yes. The funds were to be -- the shares were to be
10 transferred to Cayman. The income then from the
11 funds was to be sent to Dublin, is that right?
12 A. Not necessarily.
13 121 Q. If you ...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. If I needed it.
15 122 Q. If you needed it?
16 A. Yes.
17 123 Q. Any time you needed funds they came to Dublin?
18 A. Yes.
19 124 Q. Perhaps, we can just have a look at the documents,
20 just to identify them? Can you see what is called
21 The Deed Of Settlement? This was a draft
22 Deed Of Settlement, which was sent to you (Exhibit
23 1) ?
24 A. Yes.
25 125 Q. Do you see there that:
26 "This is indenture of Settlement made

between John Andrew Furze..."
27
28 A. Yes.
29 126 Q. Then:
17
1 "...of the one part and Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited, a company
2 incorporated under the laws, of the
other part."
3
4 Did you know who Mr. Furze was?
5 A. No.
6 127 Q. The correspondance indicates that an appointment was
7 made for you to meet Mr. Furze. Do you remember
8 meeting him?
9 A. I don't actually remember meeting him. Since all
10 this has happened I have seen from the paper -- I
11 remember -- I think you will find this was actually
12 established before I met him.
13 128 Q. Yes?
14 A. I was told by Guinness & Mahon in Dublin that he was
15 coming over.
16 129 Q. Yes?
17 A. And would I like to meet him.
18 130 Q. Yes?
19 A. And since I had had correspondence it seemed a civil
20 thing to do.
21 131 Q. Yes?
22 A. But I seriously do not remember. I couldn't tell
23 you what he looked like.
24 132 Q. Or the conversation?
25 A. I can't even -- I see from that that I did. I
26 honestly don't remember meeting him.
27 133 Q. Yes. However, what I was wondering was, was it
28 explained to you that, in fact, you were not the
29 settlor of this trust, this Deed, this Indenture Of

1 Settlement, that Mr. Furze was? Was that explained
2 to you why this was to be so?
3 A. No, I just understood that -- I did ask. I remember
4 asking somebody but they said that that was the way
5 they did things.
6 134 Q. Yes. Somebody in Guinness & Mahon told you that?
7 A. Yes.
8 135 Q. Probably Mr. Keane then, was it?
9 A. I imagine.
10 136 Q. Yes?
11 A. He was the one I spoke to all the time.
12 137 Q. Yes, yes. The documents then, that you have
13 forwarded to us, show then that they sent you on a
14 draft letter of who were to be the beneficiaries of
15 the trust. Do you remember that? Do you remember
16 being told. Being given a draft as to who were to
17 be the beneficiaries, do you remember?
18 A. Well, I know that that happened, yes.
19 138 Q. That was part of the arrangement?
20 A. Yes.
21 139 Q. And that you were one of the people?
22 A. Yes.
23 140 Q. Who was to be the beneficiary?
24 A. That was the object of having the money in, you
25 know. It is was for my benefit.
26 141 Q. For your benefit?
27 A. Yes.
28 142 Q. Yes. I would like you now just to look at some
29 documents relating to a loan which you got from
19
1 Guinness & Mahon in February 1979. Would you hand
2 the witness the facility letter of
3 the 26th February 1979. (Exhibit 2) (Same handed)?
4 A. Thank you.
5 143 Q. Do you see it refers to you as the borrower?
6 A. Yes.
7 144 Q. That the amount you were borrowing was £24,500?
8 A. Yes.
9 145 Q. The terms are set out and how the loan was to be
10 drawn down. Do you see it says here:
11 "The funds have already been made

available to you by way of a draft in
12 favour of Steen O'Reilly Trust
Account."
13
14 What is Steen O'Reilly Trust Account?
15 A. They were solicitors in Navan who were acting on
16 behalf of me in the purchase of the land.
17 146 Q. You were buying land?
18 A. Yes.
19 147 Q. Yes. Was that in relation to Ashfield?
20 A. No.
21 148 Q. It was separate?
22 A. No, because I was not an Irish citizen and wasn't a
23 resident at the time...
24 149 Q. Yes?
25 A there was a thing mooted that nobody would be
26 allowed to buy land unless they had completed
27 agricultural training.
28 150 Q. Yes?
29 A. Or unless they were Irish.
20
1 151 Q. Yes?
2 A. So, not knowing whether or not my parents were going
3 to stay in Ireland, or my mother was going to stay
4 in Ireland, I said at the time that -- before this
5 came in if you owned land you were going to be
6 allowed to buy more.
7 152 Q. Yes?
8 A. And so, therefore, I bought a small little place.
9 It is only eight acres.
10 153 Q. I see?
11 A. Just near us.
12 154 Q. Yes. It says in the next paragraph:
13 "Purpose: The funds have been made

available in the form of bridging
14 finance to assist you in the purchase
of eight acres at Johnstown, Co.
15 Meath."
16
17 That is correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 155 Q. Then it deals with interest. Then in paragraph
20 seven, over the page, it refers to "Security":
21 "As security for the loan we shall

require your solicitor's undertaking
22 holding the Title Deeds of the lands
being purchased to our order."
23
24 In your statement you refer to the fact that you
25 thought there was other security as well, apart from
26 that which is stated there, is that not so?
27 A. I am sorry, I don't understand?
28 156 Q. Sorry. In the statement you gave us?
29 A. Yes.
21
1 157 Q. You got a loan, you say, on page 4. Have you got it
2 there? Have you got your statement there (Exhibit
3 3)
4 A. Yes.
5 158 Q. If you look at page 4 of your statement?
6 A. It is not written out like that.
7 159 Q. Is it not? Could you give the witness a copy?
8 A. If you could just tell me what it says.
9 160 Q. "I got a loan of £24,500"?
10 A. Yes.
11 161 Q. "Which was later increased to £31,000"?
12 A. Yes.
13 162 Q. "From Guinness & Mahon in Dublin"?
14 A. Yes.
15 163 Q. In relation ...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. It is all right, I have it.
17 164 Q. I cannot read actually the words here, "to purchase
18 the land"?
19 A. Yes.
20 165 Q. "I think that the deposit that I had in the
21 Cayman Islands was used in some way to provide
22 collateral for this loan"?
23 A. Yes.
24 166 Q. Tell me what you considered was the situation?
25 A. Well, I thought that they were lending me the money
26 against what was in ...(INTERJECTION).
27 167 Q. In the Cayman Islands?
28 A. In the Cayman Islands.
29 168 Q. Yes.
22
1 A. Because that was the only asset I had.
2 169 Q. Yes. In fact Ms. Power money had been transferred
3 to Dublin. I would just like to you to look at some
4 documents. Would you look at tab 6? It is a letter
5 of the 14th May -- sorry, it is a ledger account of
6 the 14th May 1978. (Exhibit 4)(same Handed)?
7 A. Thank you.
8 170 Q. Sorry, it is March 1978. The photostat is difficult
9 to read but would you look at the top? The account
10 was the Guinness Mahon (Cayman Trust) Account. Do
11 you see that on the left-hand side?
12 A. Yes.
13 171 Q. It was in Irish pounds, sundry sub account?
14 A. Yes.
15 172 Q. You see there Ms. Marily B. Power?
16 A. Yes.
17 173 Q. There is a sum of £1,000 debit?
18 A. Yes.
19 174 Q. Does that not appear as if you drew out £1,000 from
20 this company?
21 A. Yes.
22 175 Q. Would I be correct in saying that you did draw money
23 out of the account in Dublin from time to time?
24 A. Yes.
25 176 Q. Did you notice that the account was not in your name
26 but was in the name of Guinness Mahon (Cayman Trust)
27 Limited?
28 A. No.
29 177 Q. Was it in any way explained to you that the account
23
1 in Dublin would not be in your name even though you
2 could be entitled to draw on it?
3 A. I thought that the statements that came to me were
4 in my name.
5 178 Q. Did you obtain statements?
6 A. Yes.
7 179 Q. You did mention to us that you would produce some
8 statements. Have you got any statements?
9 A. No, I didn't bring them because I understood -- I
10 thought actually you would have copies of everything
11 here.
12 180 Q. No, no. I am afraid Ms. Power we would need all the
13 documents that you have in relation to this?
14 A. The statements that I have are from Guinness & Mahon
15 or the Cayman Islands.
16 181 Q. Yes?
17 A. Not from here.
18 182 Q. Yes. We would require those I am afraid Ms. Power?
19 A. Yes. No, that is all right.
20 183 Q. You can give us them?
21 A. I haven't got them with me but I can get them for
22 you.
23 184 Q. Yes?
24 A. My accountant has them at the minute.
25 185 Q. Yes. I want you to give us all the statements that
26 you have obtained from the Cayman Islands?
27 A. Yes.
28 186 Q. But also any statements that you may have obtained
29 in Dublin. Did you obtain any statements from
24
1 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
2 A. There are some statements, yes.
3 187 Q. Yes?
4 A. As I say I thought that you had them. I understood
5 that you had been at the Bank and you had all those.
6 188 Q. No. We require those from you?
7 A. Yes.
8 189 Q. In other words, what I want you to give us Ms. Power
9 is everything you have?
10 A. Yes.
11 190 Q. In relation to this matter?
12 A. Yes.
13 191 Q. Both from Cayman Islands and from Dublin?
14 A. Yes.
15 192 Q. Very well then. Then this is a drawing out from
16 this account by you. There is another one, I need
17 not delay with it, of the 31st January 1979, of
18 another payment out of £500. If you would just look
19 at it and identify it. (Exhibit 5) (Same Handed)?
20 A. Yes. They are still spelling my name wrong I see.
21 193 Q. Yes?
22 A. A different way again.
23 194 Q. Just make it out. Would you just look at two other
24 documents now? At tab 7, please Ms. Cummins? It is
25 the 15th December 1977. (Exhibit 6) (Same handed)?
26 A. Yes.
27 195 Q. This is the same account. If you see Guinness Mahon
28 (Cayman Trust) Limited?
29 A. Yes.
25
1 196 Q. Irish pounds sundry sub account?
2 A. Yes.
3 197 Q. It is the 15th December 1977?
4 A. Yes.
5 198 Q. Do you see the 15th December re Jumelol?
6 A. Yes.
7 199 Q. £2,500?
8 A. Yes.
9 200 Q. That is a credit?
10 A. Yes.
11 201 Q. That is a payment in by you?
12 A. From Jumelol, yes.
13 202 Q. It is a payment into Jumelol?
14 A. Yes.
15 203 Q. To Jumelol's account?
16 A. I never understood it was called Jumelol over here.
17 204 Q. Yes?
18 A. I mean it was my name.
19 205 Q. It was your name?
20 A. Yes.
21 206 Q. However, whether it was Jumelol or whether it was in
22 your name, there was a payment in by you of £2,500,
23 is that not right?
24 A. Well, I would have to check my own things. I mean,
25 as I said, the money came in from Jumelol Trust in
26 the Caymans and I would withdraw it here. It is
27 possible if I had been paid something that I paid it
28 into that account, yes.
29 207 Q. I am just wondering -- you see the next page, if you
26
1 could give Ms. Power the next page please? It is
2 January 1978. (Exhibit 7) (Same Handed).
3 A. Thank you.
4 208 Q. Do you see on the 23rd January -- sorry the payment
5 is the 23rd January but the value is the
6 15th December?
7 A. Yes .
8 209 Q. There is two sums of £2,500 paid in?
9 A. Yes .
10 210 Q. That is £5,000 paid in?
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 211 Q. I am just wondering did you pay money into this
13 account from time to time?
14 A. I know I received some money from the sale of
15 shares.
16 212 Q. I am sorry. I am sorry?
17 A. Yes .
18 213 Q. This is a debit. I am sorry. I have misread it.
19 This is a drawing out. The other one was a drawing
20 in, was a payment in. I am just wondering, can you
21 remember did you pay in from time to time money into
22 this account other than ...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. Yes, I might have paid in a small amount.
24 214 Q. Yes?
25 A. I know one thing I did pay into it was actually some
26 Australian shares that I received. I sold them,
27 some that I had from Australia.
28 215 Q. Yes?
1 216 Q. You paid it in?
2 A. I know that was paid in.
3 217 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 218 Q. Why was it paid into that account? Why did you pay
6 it into the account in Guinness & Mahon?
7 A. To have it there I suppose.
8 219 Q. Did you not have an ordinary bank account in Dublin
9 somewhere?
10 A. I had a bank account in Navan, yes.
11 220 Q. In Navan?
12 A. Yes, I did. I think it was because it was in
13 foreign currency that I did it.
14 221 Q. Was it in foreign currency?
15 A. It was in Australian dollars, yes.
16 222 Q. The payment in is -- it is an account in Irish
17 pounds. I wonder can that be right, do you think?
18 A. Well, it came in here as Australian dollars and I
19 would have paid it into there.
20 223 Q. Did you have other funds that from time to time you
21 may have received and then paid into this account?
22 A. I would have had very small things. I used to make
23 a very small amount in journalism.
24 224 Q. Yes?
25 A. And I may have paid those in.
26 225 Q. Yes. Why would you pay them into this account
27 rather than your own account in Navan?
28 A. Well, I never had very much in my own account
29 in Navan.
28
1 226 Q. Did you find any advantage? Did you think there was
2 any advantage in paying it into this account?
3 A. I can't really answer that. I don't really know why
4 I paid it in.
5 227 Q. Well ...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. If that was the time when I was paying off the land
7 or whatever I might have put it in for that reason
8 because I did pay off some and then I decided it was
9 too expensive.
10 228 Q. The account which you regarded as your money,
11 whether it was in the name of Jumelol or your own
12 account in Guinness & Mahon, obviously earned
13 interest. Did you return the interest on your
14 income tax that you had earned on this?
15 A. I don't really know that. I am not sure of that at
16 all. I understood that my taxes had been paid. The
17 money that I was receiving, I understood the taxes
18 were paid already in the Cayman Islands.
19 229 Q. Does that mean then that you did not return the
20 taxes, the interest?
21 A. Probably not.
22 230 Q. Probably not?
23 A. Yes .
24 231 Q. Yes. There is another document I want to refer you
25 to. It is at tab five please (Same handed)?
26 A. Thank you.
27 232 Q. This is a telex Ms. Power of the 19th March 1986.
28 It is from Guinness & Mahon London, which is the
29 parent company of the Dublin company. It is a telex
29
1 to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin (Exhibit 8)?
2 A. Yes .
3 233 Q. Do you see it is from Guinness & Mahon London and
4 then a reference ?
5 A. Yes .
6 234 Q. Then the text is value and the date is given:
7 "We have credited your account..."

o
o
9 That is to say the Guinness & Mahon Dublin Account.
10 "...with US$9,000..."
11
12 A. Yes .
13 235 Q. And:
14 "Amount being for credit order of

Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust."
15
16 This seems to be a telex telling Dublin that its
17 account in London has been credited with $9,000 in
18 US dollars to your account in London. Is that not
19 correct?
20 A. I have no account in London.
21 236 Q. Can you ...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. I have no idea I am afraid.
23 237 Q. Can you explain this?
24 A. No.
25 238 Q. Was any money transferred on your ...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. It may well have been transferred from Jumelol. As
27 I said I just left it to them and I have no idea
28 what method they used to transfer it. I didn't know
29 it went through this account.

1 239 Q. However, did you have an account in London?
2 A. No, not to my knowledge. I never opened one.
3 240 Q. This was in 1986, is there any way in which you can
4 recall any reason why there should not have been a
5 payment of US dollars in 1986?
6 A. No, not especially.
7 241 Q. You cannot remember anything?
8 A. No.
9 242 Q. You cannot recollect anything which would assist us
10 in understanding what this telex meant?
11 A. I am afraid not, I am totally -- that means that
12 they say I have an account in London?
13 243 Q. That means that the Guinness & Mahon Trust, sorry
14 that Guinness & Mahon in Dublin had an account in
15 London but that you were entitled to share in this
16 account. I am sorry. It seems to be, I am
17 misreading it. It seems to be for your account in
18 Dublin but it was sent to London. You have no
19 reason...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. I don't know why.
21 244 Q. You cannot explain why that was done?
22 A. No.
23 245 Q. Did you have contact from time to time with
24 Mr. Keane about this, about your account, did you go
25 into the bank at all to discuss it?
26 A. Rarely.
27 246 Q. Rarely?
28 A. Yes.
29 247 Q. You think you got some statements from Dublin and
31
1 you are going to produce those to us?
2 A. Yes, I definitely had statements from them. I may
3 or may not have kept them all.
4 248 Q. But what you have you are going to give us?
5 A. Yes, certainly.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well, Ms. Power that
7 is all I wanted to ask
8 you. Mr. Rowan would you like to ask some
9 questions?
10
11 END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. POWER BY MR. JUSTICE
12 COSTELLO
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
32
1 MS. POWER WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN
3 24 9 Q. MR. ROWAN: Ms. Power, you said that
4 when you were dealing with
5 Mr. Keane at the start of all of this, in answer to
6 the question, did you have a solicitor advising you
7 I think you said, no?
8 A. Yes.
9 250 Q. Did you have an accountant advising you, you said
10 no?
11 A. Yes.
12 251 Q. Just to be clear the only advice you took was from
13 Mr. Keane in Guinness & Mahon?
14 A. I have a brother in the business, if you like, in
15 New York. He would have advised me on shares but
16 the only accountant I had would have been my
17 parent's accountants which at that stage were
18 Craig Gardner but they wouldn't have advised me on
19 this. Yes, I think, yes, to your question.
20 252 Q. You did not take advice from a solicitor?
21 A. No.
22 253 Q. And you did not take advice from an accountant?
23 A. Yes, it would have been, yes.
24 254 Q. But essentially the advice you took was from
25 Mr. Keane?
26 A. Yes.
27 255 Q. Mr. Keane was acting for Guinness & Mahon?
28 A. Yes.
29 256 Q. And Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust)?
33
1 A. Yes.
2 257 Q. The trustees in the deed of settlement were also
3 Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust)?
4 A. Yes.
5 258 Q. I suppose that did offer a prospect perhaps of a
6 conflict of interest in some ways in that they
7 were...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. I do remember saying, well I have to trust them but
9 whoever it was said, well that is their business
10 that is in Cayman Islands, that is why they exist.
11 259 Q. It is a little bit of a surprise that you did not
12 think of even getting a little bit of impartial
13 advice from say a solicitor for instance?
14 A. I had advice in America before it went out there.
15 My mother's lawyers out there, they said it was
16 perfectly all right.
17 260 Q. Who were they?
18 A. It is in one of those papers. Basically Silverfelt,
19 Danziger and Bangzer or, you have it there
20 somewhere. They were distributing the trust,
21 Frank Cline was the man at the time. There was a
22 Mr. Danziger in it who was an old friend of my
23 mother's who had been her lawyer for years and the
24 company whose name changed the various partners but
25 I think there is a reference to them in one of those
26 letters.
27 261 Q. Do I take it that you did not actually say to them,
28 here is the proposition which Mr. Keane is putting
29 to me?
34
1 A. No.
2 262 Q. Do you agree that that is appropriate?
3 A. I would not have met Mr. Keane until after the stuff
4 had gone into the Cayman Islands.
5 263 Q. I see?
6 A. I didn't meet him until then.
7 264 Q. Do you still have something in the Cayman?
8 A. Yes, there is a very small amount still there.
9 265 Q. When did you largely reduce it from the, I think you
10 said $175,000 that went in, in the first place, when
11 did it reduce to something much smaller?
12 A. If you live on a farm it reduces very quickly I can
13 tell you. Over a period of time, no major time.
14 266 Q. You have been using...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. I have been using it.
16 267 Q. Your funds to help you operate your business?
17 A. Yes and to live on.
18 268 Q. And to live on?
19 A. Yes.
20 269 Q. More recently I think you said you have an
21 accountant, I presume it is something to do with
22 your farm accounts or something of that sort?
23 A. Yes.
24 270 Q. Have you raised this issue with them at any stage?
25 Has it come up in any advice that they have offered
26 you?
27 A. Recently, yes, in the last couple of years.
28 271 Q. What did they advise?
29 A. She is going through everything to see should I be
35
1 paying tax or something. As I say, I understood
2 that the taxes were paid and that was it. I am
3 afraid I plead very guilty to ignorance on all of
4 this but we are going through it now to try and sort
5 it out.
6 272 Q. When did you become resident for tax purposes in
7 Ireland, Ms. Power?
8 A. When I started Suma Stud, which looking back I think
9 it was about 1980.
10 MR. ROWAN: Thank you.
11
12 END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. POWER BY MR. ROWAN
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
36
1 MS. POWER WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
3 273 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Power, I am still not
4 very clear about how your
5 trust funds initially came to the Cayman Islands,
6 came to Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust). You say
7 that you did not come into contact with
8 Guinness & Mahon here until after the trust was set
9 up?
10 A. That is right.
11 274 Q. How was the trust set up? Who made the first
12 contact and with whom?
13 A. It was set up from New York from the company, from I
14 think it was Morgan Guaranty Trust had the funds and
15 it was sent from there to them.
16 275 Q. It was sent from there but at whose request?
17 A. It would have been mine officially, I mean
18 ultimately.
19 276 Q. You asked them to send the funds to
20 Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust)?
21 A. I imagine I did.
22 277 Q. Where did you get that address from?
23 A. I can't answer that I am afraid. I would if I
24 could. I do know that this friend of mine in
25 England, he must have.
26 278 Q. Can you tell us who this friend was Ms. Power?
27 A. Yes, he is called Simon Smith. He is with
28 Bircham & Company.
29 279 Q. And he advised you?
37
1 A. I could be wrong but, I just, I am afraid I can't
2 answer that, whether it was. As you say, the logic
3 is that it must have.
4 280 Q. Leaving aside that for the moment, someone advised
5 you anyway?
6 A. Yes .
7 281 Q. About Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust)?
8 A. Yes .
9 282 Q. Before you asked Morgan to transfer your funds
10 there, did you yourself get in contact with
11 Guinness & Mahon (Cayman Trust) and ask them if they
12 would open up an account or set up an account?
13 A. I must have done.
14 283 Q. Do you remember that?
15 A. I do not remember it, no.
16 284 Q. You have no correspondence?
17 A. No, the only correspondence I have, that I found, I
18 sent to you.
19 285 Q. You cannot remember getting in touch with them and
20 you cannot remember specifically asking
21 Morgan Trust Company to transfer the funds but you
22 think that was the agreement?
23 A. I am sure I must have done. I know it was my
24 agreement, it wasn't something they imposed on me, I
25 did it.
26 286 Q. It was done anyway?
27 A. Yes .
28 287 Q. Then you told us that after the trust was set up,
29 you came in contact with Martin Keane in
38
1 Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Yes .
3 288 Q. What lead you to come into contact with him or what
4 lead you to go to Guinness & Mahon at all here in
5 Dublin?
6 A. I think that my friend Mr. Smith, his friend was
7 probably higher up in the bank and he referred me in
8 the bank. I was very small fry and he referred me
9 to one of the junior men.
10 289 Q. What I really mean is how did you come into contact
11 with Guinness & Mahon here at all? What lead you to
12 go into Guinness & Mahon here?
13 A. As I say, this chap said that they had a branch both
14 here and in the Cayman Islands.
15 290 Q. Yes and Mr. Smith then...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. I must have known about it before going out there,
17 thinking about it, because otherwise they couldn't
18 have sent it there.
19 291 Q. You must have known?
20 A. I must have had the name of Guinness & Mahon before
21 the trust was distributed.
22 292 Q. Yes?
23 A. Because I must have done.
24 293 Q. What I am not really clear about now and I know you
25 cannot really recollect it in detail?
26 A. It is a long time ago.
27 294 Q. If we could tease it out a little bit?
28 A. Yes .
29 295 Q. The trust was set up, you cannot remember the
39
1 details ?
2 A. No.
3 296 Q. Of how you contacted Cayman Island or Morgan but it
4 was set up there anyway?
5 A. Yes .
6 297 Q. The contact was between New York and Cayman Islands
7 at that stage?
8 A. Yes .
9 298 Q. What I am wondering is where the Dublin contact came
10 in? What lead you at all to approach the Dublin
11 bank, your business was being
12 transacted...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. Because I lived here, because I wanted the money
14 here. I wanted it sent here and I needed,
15 therefore, somebody here you know.
16 299 Q. Why did you think it would be possible to get the
17 money in Ireland?
18 A. Because they were a related branch.
19 300 Q. Someone told you that?
20 A. Yes .
21 301 Q. That it would be possible to get the money here in
22 Ireland?
23 A. Yes .
24 302 Q. Can you recollect who told you that?
25 A. It would have been somebody either in the bank or --
26 I mean I understood that that was why I had gone
27 there originally. In other words, if the money was
28 in one branch if it, it could come to the other
29 branch.
1 303 Q. In another country?
2 A. Yes.
3 304 Q. You think it was possibly Mr. Smith who explained
4 this to you at the beginning?
5 A. He certainly referred me to Guinness & Mahon. It
6 was either him or it was from the States, one of the
7 two.
8 305 Q. Leaving that aside for the moment, you were telling
9 us that the shares that you were entitled to under
10 what was the America Trust as opposed to the Cayman
11 Trust?
12 A. Yes.
13 306 Q. The shares you were entitled to under the
14 America Trust were transferred into the name of
15 Jumelol Limited?
16 A. Yes.
17 307 Q. They took over those shares, through I think
18 Overseas Nominees, is that not correct?
19 A. It says Overseas Nominees on that letter, yes.
20 308 Q. They were transferred into the name of
21 Overseas Nominees?
22 A. Yes.
23 309 Q. Among the correspondence you sent us, there is a
24 letter from your trust company in America?
25 A. Yes.
26 310 Q. Asking you and your solicitor and your brothers I
27 think, if they wished to take a distribution from
28 the trust and you write back and you say to send all
29 future distribution to your account in the
41
1 Cayman Islands?
2 A. Yes.
3 311 Q. If the shares were now in the Cayman Islands, how
4 was the America Trust doing with the distribution?
5 A. I think they took a long time to wind up the trust
6 completely. I think that is what it was.
7 312 Q. From time to time distributions were still being
8 made were they?
9 A. No, it was finally finished whenever it was. I
10 can't answer that. It didn't go on too long as far
11 as I remember.
12 313 Q. Some distributions were made and were passed over to
13 your accountant in the Cayman Islands after you
14 opened it, is that correct?
15 A. After which?
16 314 Q. After you opened that trust?
17 A. Seemingly, yes.
18 315 Q. Who is your present accountant?
19 A. Brenda Aherne, Aherne & Company.
20 316 Q. Brenda Aherne?
21 A. Yes.
22 317 Q. Where are they?
23 A. She is in Morehampton Road, Donnybrook.
24 318 Q. Is it she who is looking through your files at the
25 moment?
26 A. Yes, she could send those up to you as soon as you
27 like.
28 319 Q. Yes, that would be grand?
29 A. Yes.
42
1 320 Q. Did she give you any assistance in preparing for
2 this today? Did she go through the files with you
3 and did you endeavour a little bit to sort out what
4 the situation had been and so on?
5 A. She gave me some help, yes. She referred me to a
6 solicitor. As I say, I didn't understand all of
7 this .
8 321 Q. Did you see a solicitor about this whole matter?
9 A. Yes, I had a consultation with Mr. Shields.
10 322 Q. Mr. Shields?
11 A. Yes .
12 MS. MACKEY: Very good, I do not think
13 I have any further
14 questions. Thank you very much.
15
16 END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. POWER BY MS. MACKEY
17 EXAMINATION
18
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is everything
20 then Ms. Power. We would
21 like these documents, you will arrange to send them
22 on?
23 A. Yes .
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We would require you to
25 come in to sign the
26 transcript of this evidence.
27 A. Yes .
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It has to be typed up and
29 Ms. Cummins will get in

1 touch with you next week probably.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And that can be arranged.
4 Very well. Thank you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
44
i f
i THIS INDENTURE OP SETTLEMENT is made the day of
:A.D. 197 BETWEEN JOHN ANDREW FURZE of George Town, Grand Cayme
I — —
British West Indies (hereinafter called "the Settlor") of the
one part and GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED a company
incorporated under the laws of^the Cayman Islands and carrying
on business therein (hereinafter called "the Trustee" which
term shall also include any eidditional or successor trustee .
or trustees hereof) of the other part.
| WHEREAS the Settlor has caused the property described in the
First Schedule hereto (which together with the money invest-
ments and property for the time being representing the same
and any additions or diminishments thereto and any further
property becoming subject to the trusts hereof is hereinafter
called "the Trust Fund" and shall be known as "the
Trust") to be duly transferred into the name or under the
control of the trusts hereinafter expressed.
i
NOW THIS SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH as follows:
1. The Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust and
during the period commencing on the date of execution of these
presents and terminating on the expiration of twenty (20) years
i
after the death of the last survivor of the lineal descendants
| now living of Uis Late Majesty King George the Fifth or on the
i
| expiration of seventy years fro\it the date hereof (whichever
i shall be the earlier) (said period hereinafter called "the
Accumulation Period" and said termination date being herein-
after called "the Fixed Date") UPON TRUST as to investments
j or property other than money either to permit all or any of
!| the same to remain as invested for as long as the Trustees
!j
I; shall in their absolute discretion deem fit or to sell call
!!
in or convert into money all or any of such investments or
property UPOM TRUST as to money including the money arising
from any such sale calling in or conversion as aforesaid to
*
invest the same in or upon any of the investments hereinafter

authorised.
| 2. THE Trustees may apply or invest the Trust Fund in the
i
purchase of or at interest upon the security of such stocks
funds shares securities options or other investments or property
whether real or personal movable or immovable of whatever
nature and wherever situate (including any fractional or
undivided interest therein and including the purchase maintenance
or improvement of a freehold or leasehold dwellinghouse situate
i anywhere in the world for use as a residence) and whether invol-
ving liability or not and whether producing income or not or
upon such personal credit with or v/ithout security as the
Trustees in their absolute discretion shall think fit with
power from time» to time»to vary such investments for others
of a like nature (yet being under no duty to diversify invest-
ments) and with power to hold cash funds uninvested and other
j non-income producing property to the extent that the Trustees
i:
jshall have the same full and unrestricted powers of investing
jjthe Trust Fund in all respects as if they were absolute owners
M
Ij beneficially entitled PROVIDED however that in the'professed
execution of the trusts and powers hereof the Trustees shall
not be liable for any loss to the Trust Fund arising by reason
of any investments made in good faith or by reason of any
mistake or omission made in good faith by the Trustees or by
reason of any other matter or thing except wilful and individual
fraud or wilful and individual wrong-doing on the part of the
Trustees who are sought to be made liable without limiting the
generality of the foregoing the Trustees are hereby specifically
empowered to make investments and to acquire property without
• any requirement of diversification even though such investments
or property may be highly speculative or not of a type which
are suitable trust investments or holdings in particular the
Trustees may margin or hypothecate trust assets or securities
in whole or in part sell short purchase or sell options puts
calls or other contracts or securities or commodities and carry
on trading activities of every type whatsoever,
3. THE Trustees shall have the power to sell lease or
exchange and to grant options to purchase lease or"exchange
i
I any property movable or immovable (which expression shall be
deemed always to include any part or share of any such property)
which may at any time constitute the whole or any part of the
Trust Fund either at public auction or private sale for such
!| consideration and on such terms credit or security as the
] Trustees may deem advisable and whether for the ourpose of
1
j re-investnent distribution or diversion and no purchaser on
j •
j any sale by the Trustees or other person dealing with the
j
il
Trustees shall be concerned to inquire into the propriety or
validity of any act of the Trustees or to see to the application
of any money paid or property transferred to or upon the order
of the Trustees.
Dt'RIMG the Accumulation Period -#ie Trustees shall stand
possessed of the Trust Fund and the income thereof upon the
following trusts that is to say:-
(a) Upon trust for all or any to the exclusion of the
others or other of the persons described in the Secojid
Schedule hereto (being and hereinafter called "the
j Appointed Class") in such shares and in such manner
i
and subject to such limitations and provisions as the
Trustees in their absolute and uncontrolled discretion
at any time or-times before the Fixed Date by any deed
or deeds revocable or irrevocable without transgressing
the rule against perpetuities may appoint and -so that
by any such appointment the Trustees may confer upon
m
any appointee any valid power or powers of appointment

in favour of any other member of the Appointed Class.
AND it 'is expressly provided (without prejudice to the
generality of the' foregoing) that the Trustees may
ii
i appoint on discretionary trusts and that, such trusts
i
| may include as objects of the powers as regards income
i'
of the Trust Fund any member of the Appointed Class
jj and may dispose of the whole or any part of the Trust
•i
i. Fund to the Trustees of any other Settlement (in
existence at the time of such disposition and whether
in accordance with the laws of the Cayraan Islands or
not) under which any member of the Appointed Class is
a beneficiary to be held as an accretion to the Trust
/
Fund thereof and subject to anf such appointment and so

far as the same may not extend.
(b) Upon Trust to accumulate any income of the Trust
Fund in the way of compound interest by investing the
same and the resulting income therefrom in any of-
the investments hereinbefore authorised and adding
such accumulations and resulting income as accretions
to and as a part of the Trust Fund.
(c) Provided always that the Trustees in their absolute
discretion may jpay or apply, at any time and from time
to time during the Accumulation Period all or any part
of the income or capital of the Trust Fund 'to. or for
the benefit of the members of the Appointed Class and
of more than one for any one or more to the exclusion
of the other or others of them and in such shares as
the Trustees may in their absolute discretion think fit.
(d) Upon the termination of the Trust on the Fixed
Date Upon Trust as to the Balance of the Trust ûnd
to or for the benefit of such members of the Apoointed
Class as shall be living immediately before the Fixed
Date in such shares as the Trustees shall determine
and in default of such determination if more than one
in equal shares absolutely and subject as aforesaid
the Trustees shall hold the capital and income of the
Trust Fund in trust for the Grand Cayman branch of
the British Red Cross Association and the receipts of
the Treasurer for the time beijg? of such Charity shall
be a good discharge to the Trustees.
(e) Any payment or application of the Trust Fund to
or for the benefit of any one or more of the .
parties hereinbefore enumerated may be made either
outright or in trust for the said party or parties
which trust or trusts may be formed by the Trustees
with such provisions and upon such terms and conditions
including trusts and powers exercisable at the
discretion of any person or persons as the Trustees
may in their absolute discretion think f.^t.
5. IN addition to all the powers vested in the TriiStees
expressly or by implication hereunder or by law or statute the
Trustees shall have all the following powers and may in their
absolute discretion exercise all or any of the same from time.
to time in such manner and to such extent if at all as may
i
seem to them desirable.
(a) To receive additional properly or donations by giEt
or will or by the provisions of any other trust or trusts
or otherwise from any person or persons as additions to
this Trust and as part of the Trust Fund and^ to hold the
same upon the Trusts herein set forth and to administer
such additions under the provisions hereof.
(b) With respect to any property constituting the
whole or part of the Trust Fund to exercise all powers
which individual beneficial owners might exercise
without being restricted in any way by the office
of trustee including (without-prejudice to the generality
of the foregoing) the following powers.
(i) To promote and incorporate companies to carry

on any business whatsoever and power to liquidate the
same and distribute their assets in specie or 'other-
wise.
(ii) To vote upon or in respect of any shares
securities bonds notes or other evidence of interest
in or obligations of any corporation trust association
or concern whether or not affecting the security or
the apparent security of any part of the Trust Fund
or the purchase or sale or lease of the assets of
any such corporation trust association or^ concern
and
(iii) To give proxies or powers of attorney with or
without power of substitution for voting or acting
i
on behalf of the Trustees as the owners of any such
property and
(iv) To participate in and consent to any corporate
reorganisation consolidation merger liquidation
dissolution sale or lease or in and to any other
change in any corporation or in its financial
structure affecting any securities or other property
hold hereunder and
(v) To become a party to any voting trust or
deposit agreement and to deposit any securities or
property held hereunder with any protective
reorganisation or similar committee or in any voting
trust or with any depositary designated thereby and
(vi) To exercise or concur in exercising the
voting and other rights attaching to any securities •
for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund
so as to become a Director or other officer or
employee of any company and to be entitled to vote
for and to be paid and to retain for the Trustees'
use and benefit reasonable remuneration for the
Trustees' services.
(vii) To hold or deposit any securities or other
property in bearer form or in the nape of the
%
Trustees or in the name of any one of them'being a

Trust Corporation or in the name of some other
persons or partnership or in the name of a duly
appointed nominee without disclosing the fiduciary.
relationship and
i
(viii) To omit to register bonds or securities and

(ix) To keep the whole or any part of the documents
relating to and the money investments and property
comprised in the said Trust Fund within or without
the said Cayman Islands.
(c) To invest re-invest and manage the Trust Fund either
separately or together with other funds to acquire and
retain the shares or securities of investment companies
or investment trusts whether of the open or closed type
and without notice to anyone to participate in any
common trust fund maintained by any corporate trustee
at any time serving hereunder.
(d) To engage the services of an investment advisor
or advisors at the expense of the Trust Fund and without*
liability to follow the recommendations of such advisor
or advisors even though such recommendations may be
highly speculative or not of a type which would
ordinarily be legal or suitable trust investments.
(e) To borrow or lend money on such terms and from or
to such persons including the members of the Appointed
Class as the Trustees may determine to be reasonable
and proper and without limiting the generality of the.
foregoing to mortgage or hypothecate all or an^*portions
of the. Trust Fund.
(f) To make execute and deliver deeds conveyances
assignments transfers options leases mortgages instruments
of pledge instruments creating liens contracts and
other instruments sealed or unsealed to raze or erect
any buildings or other structures and to make any kind
of improvements which tl\e Trustees deem proper.
(g) Without prejudice to the jurisdiction of the Court
and according to the respective rights and interests
of the persons interested to treat as income or capital
or to apportion between income and capital any dividends
stock dividends rights interest rent issued and profits
derived from any property at any time comprised in the
Trust Fund and generally to determine what part of the
receipts of the Trust is income and what is capital
and whether or not such property is wasting or unproduc-
tive or was purchased at a prfemiura or discount and
notwithstanding the time when such dividends stock
dividends rights interest rent issues or profits were •
earned accrued declared or paid to make such reserves out
of income or capital as the Trustees deem proper for
expenses taxes and other liabilities of the Trust to
pay from income or from capital or to apportion between
income and capital any expenses of making or changing
investments and of selling exchanging or leasing
including brokers' commissions and charges and generally
to determine what part of the expenses tof the Trust
shall be charged to capital and what part to income and
to determine as between separate funds and separate parts
or shares the allocation of income gains profits losses
and distributions.
(h) To carry on participate or invest in any corporation
•
partnership joint venture or co-operative and to enter

into such leases contracts or other undertakings relating
to the Trust Fund or any part of it as the Trustees
shall in their uncontrolled discretion deem advantageous
notwithstanding that such leases contracts or under-
takings extend or may extend beyond the termination of
this Trust.
(i) To institute prosecute and defend any suits or
actions or other proceedings affecting the Trustees
or the Trust Fund or any part thereof to compromise
any matters of difference or compound any debts owing
to them as Trustees or any otter claims and to adjust
any disputes in relation to debts or claims against
them as Trustees upon evidence that to the Trustees
shall seem sufficient and in whole or in part at public
auction or private sale or otherwise and upon sueh terms
and for such terms as the Trustees deem advisable to
make partition with the co-owners or joint owners besides
the Trust having any interest in any properties in
which the Trustees are interested and to make such
partition either by sale or by set-off or by agreement
or otherwise (including where deemed desirable provision
for equality of exchange).
(j) To take the opinion or advice of counsel concerning
any difference arising under this Settlement or any
matter in any way relating to the Trust Fund or to the
Trustees' duties" in connection with the Trust Fund and
»
in all such matters to act in accordance with the opinion

of such counsel.
(k) To employ and pay at the expense of the Trust Fund
any agent in any part of the world whether an attorney
solicitor banker accountant stockbroker or other agent
e
and whether or not being one of the Trustees hereunder

to transact any business or do any act required to be
transacted or done in the execution of the trusts hereof
including the receipt or payment of money and the
execution of documents and no firm association or
corporation any of whose securities are included
within the Trust Fund and no purchaser or other person
dealing with any agent purporting to act under
delegation or authority from the Trustees shall be
required to ascertain or inquire whether a case exists
in which such delegation is permitted or whether such
delegated authority is still subsisting PROVIDED however
that the Trustees shall not be responsible for the
default negligence or fraud of any agent so employed
or for any loss occasioned thereby although the
employment of such agent was not strictly necessary
or expedient. '
(1) Upon and for the purpose of any distribution or
appropriation of the Trust Fund or any part thereof in
their unfettered discretion to place such value on any
and all assets from time to time forming part of the
Trust Fund as to them in their absolute and uncontrolled
discretion shall seem just and proper and any such
i
valuation made in good faith shall be absolutely final
and binding and conclusive on all Beneficiaries hereunder
and further upon any such discretion or appropriation to
determine to whom specified assets shall be given and
to distribute the same subject to the payment of such
amounts as may be necessary to adjust the shares of the
•'»/l3
various Beneficiaries and further that any distributions
of the Trust Fund may be either made directly to any
Beneficiary or applied for his benefit by the Trustees
or during his minority made his duly appointed
guardian or to any person with whom he lives or resides
for the use of said Beneficiary without responsibility#
for its expenditure.
6. WITHOUT prejudice to the generality of Clause 5 iiereof
if the Trust Funds shall include any shares or other interests
in a company the ownership of which gives to them the right
in any circumstances to control the affairs of the Company or
of. any of its subsidiaries the Trustees shall be under no
liability or duty to appoint any representative to the Board
of the said Company or of any of its subsidiaries and further
-.i
shall have no responsibility to enquire into overSee.or take

part in the management or affairs or business of the Company
or any of its subsidiaries.
7. IN addition to reimbursement of their proper expenses
the Trustees shall
• be entitled
^ to remuneration (free of any
probate succession estate or other death duties wheresoever
payable and as a first charge on the Trust Fund) for their
services as Trustees in accordance with their published scale
of fees in effect at the date of appointment subject to any
amendment thereof which may be agreed upon from time to time
in writing between the Trustees and the person or persons for
i| - 14 -
il
II
iii:
:j the tiiue being having power to appoint new Trustees hereof
i,
i PROVIDED however that the Trustees may transact on behalf
o.f or with the Trust or any Beneficiary hereunder any business
I which by their constitution they are authorised to undertake
I upon the same term as would for the
- time being be made with
an ordinary customer and without accounting for any profit
j thereby made and in particular and without prejudice to the
«
| generality of the foregoing the Trustees may retain on current
I account or deposit account or advance at interest all moneys
necessary or convenient to be retained or advanced in connection
with the Trust and may retain for themselves any commission
or. remuneration paid or allowed by stockbrokers insurance
companies or other agents without being liable to account
for any profit thereby made PROVIDED further that the Trustees
may transact business on behalf of the Trust 6t any beneficiary .
hereunder with any corporation or partnership in which the
Trustees are office holders or shareholders or partners or
are otherwise financially interested or with any person or
firm holding shares or being otherwise financially interested
in the Trustees' without being liable to account for any profit
accruing to the Trustees as such office holders shareholders
or partners as a result of such business and the Trustees may
hold office in any corporation shares or securities which
comprise or form part of the Trust Fund and shall not be liable
to account to the Trust for emoluments received by them as such
( office holders.
8. (a) THE Trustees hereof (whether original or substituted)
may at any time or times be removed from their office of
Trustees by a deed executed by the Settlor (hereinafter called
"the Appointor") and delivered to the Trustees and the
Appointor may by deed executed and delivered as aforesaid appoint
any other person or persons whether or not resident in the
Cayman Islands to be Trustees either jointly with any other
then continuing Trustees or solely if after removal there shall
not be any continuing Trustees and thereupon the Trust Fund
shall be by any assurance as may be necessary or expedient
vested jointly in the persons who shall thereupon become the
Trustees of the Trusts hereby created PROVIDED however that an
outgoing trustee who is liable as a trustee hereof or may on
the death of any person become liable as a former trustee hereof
for any income probate estate or other duties fees or taxes
-.1
shall not be bound to transfer the Trust Fund as-aforesaid
• %
unless reasonable security is provided for indemnifying such

outgoing trustee against such liability PROVIDED ALSO that no
removal of trustees by the Appointor shall be effective unless
after such removal (either with or without a new appointment)
there shall remain at least one trustee being a trust corporation
or two trustees being individuals.
(b) Without prejudice to the powers contained in sub-
clause (a) of this Clause if a Trustee hereof whether original
or substituted shall die or being a corporation be dissolved
or shall desire to be discharged from all or any of the trusts
or powers hereof or shall refuse or become unfit to act therein
- 16 - j
;• or become incapable of acting therein then the following

! persons namely:
(i) the Appointor or if he shall be dead or unable |
or unwilling to act j
(ii) the surviving or contiri\$Lng Trustees hereof for the !
i
time being or if there be no surviving or continuing i
i
Trustees ;
I
(iii) the personal representatives of the last surviving
9
Trustee if such last Trustee was an individual btit if

:
such last Trustee was a corporation then such last
Trustee upon retirement may by deed appoint one or more -
other persons or corporation (whether or not being or j
including the persons exercising the power) to be a j
}
Trustee or Trustees in the place of the Trustee so
deceased dissolved desiring to be discharged refusing !
.> >
or being unfit or being incapable as aforesaid. ;
i
(c) The powers in sub-clause (a) of THIS Clause con-
I
tained may at any time be. irrevocably released by a deed J
i
executed by the Appointor and delivered to the Trustees and *
the Appointor may in like manner revocably or irrevocably grant
the said powers to any person or persons to take effect
immediately or after the death or the Appointor as the case
may be.
(d) The Trustees hereof or any of tham (whether original .
or substituted) may if they so desire resign as Trustees hereunder
after 30 days x/ritten notice of their intention so to do sent
by registered prepaid post to the Appointor or such person as
the Appointor may from time to time appoint in writing. Such
resignation shall become effective upon the day specified in
such notice of resignation.
(e) In the event of the resignation of the Trustees
hereof or in case there shall be no trustee hereunder GUINNESS
MAHON JERSEY TRUST LIMITED of Jersey, Channel Islands or their
successors shali become substituted Trustees hereunder.
(f) Upon the resignation or removal of the Trustees as
hereinbefore provided the Trustees shall be entitled to receive
reimbursement out of the Trust Fund for all expenses incurred
by them in connection with the settlement of the account of the
Trustees.
(g) On every change in the trusteeship a memorandum shall
be endorsed on or permanently affixed to this Settlement stating
the names of the Trustees for the time being and shall be signed
•i
by the persons so named and authenticated by a notary or notaries

public and any person dealing with the Trust shall be entitled to
rely upon any such memorandum (or the latest of such memoranda if
more than one) as sufficient evidence that the persons named •
therein are the 'fully constituted Trustees for the time being
i
of this Settlement.
(h) Any substituted Trustees of this Settlement shall have
all the powers conferred upon the Trustees by law and these
presents and any and all banks brokers nominees or other deposit-
ories or custodians of the Trust Fund shall be autllorised to
accept instructions from the said substituted Trustees as to the
dispositions thereof.
9. THE Trustees shall provide for the safekeeping of all
documents of title and securities the subject of this Settlement
and may at the expense of the Trust Fund (which expense may
include any charges for the safe custody of securities and the
collection and remittance of income! deposit the same in the
custody of any bank banking company corporate trustee or stock-
broker in any part of the world that undertakes the safe custody
of securities as part of its business but so that the Trustees
shall not be in any wise responsible for the misapplica'tion of
the same or any of them by such bank banking company corporate
trustee or stockbroker or for any loss which may be occasioned
thereby.
10. EN the event of any income probate estate or other duties
fees or taxes becoming payable in the Cayman Islands or else-
where in respect of the Trust Fund or any parts thereof on the
death of the Appointor or of any member of the Appointed Class
or otherwise the Trustees may at their discretion pay all or
any part of such duties fees and taxes out of the Trust Fund
without recourse against any member of the Appointed Class or
refuse to pay the same or any part thereof unless indemnified
and to determine the time and manner of such payment if any.
11. NO bond shall be required of the Trustues herein named
(whether original or substituted) or if a bond should be required
by law to the extent that a waiver by the Appointor is effective
no surety shall be required on such a bond.
12. THIS Trust shall be irrevocable and the Appointor
expressly waives all right and power whether alone or in
conjunction with any other person to alter amend or.revoke
this Settlement in whole or in part or as to any of its terras.
1 3
• I M Trustees shall not be personally liable on contracts
made by them in the administration of the Trust and persons
entering into contracts with t±ie Trustees shall look solely
to the Trust Fund.
14. WITHOUT prejudice to the right under the general law
of the Trustees to refuse disclosure of any document it is
hereby declared that the Trustees shall not be bound to disclose
to any person any of the following documents that is to say
(1) Any document disclosing any deliberations of the
Trustees (or any of the" Trustees) as to the manner in which the
Trustees should exercise any power or any discretion conferred
* %
upon the Trustees by this Settlement or disclosing the reasons"

for any particular exercise of any such power or any such
discretion or the material upon which such reasons shall or
might have been based
(2) Any other document relating to the exercise or
i
proposed exercise of any power or any discretion conferred on
the Trustees by this Settlement (not being legal advice obtained
by the Trustees at the cost of their trust estate)
AND IT IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED that the TRUSTEES MAY PERMIT
ANY member of the Appointed Class personally to inspect any copy
of this Settlement or any documents relating to the Trust at the
«
principal office of any corporate trustee hereof but shall not
be bound to give any further information to any member of the
Appointed Class relating to the affairs of the Trust or to permit
any member of the Appointed Class to make any copies of any
•
documents relating to the Trust.

15
• THIS Settlement is made under the laws of the Cayman
Islands and the rights of all parties and the construction and
effect of each and every provision hereof shall be subject
to the exclusive jurisdiction of and construed only according
to the laws of the Cayman Islands which shall be the forum for
the administration of this Trust PROVIDED however that the
Trustees may from time to time during the Accumulation Period
by deed declare that this Trust and the rights of all parties
and the construction and effect of the provisions hereof shall
from the date of such declaration be subject, to ^the exclusive
jurisdiction of and construed only according to the" laws of
some other jurisdiction (other than the Cayman Islands) in
which one or more of the Trustees then serving in office is
resident and the forum for the administration of this Trust
shall thenceforth be such other jurisdiction PROVIDED further
i
that the Trustees may not declare that this Trust and the rights
of all parties and the construction and effect of the provisions
hereof shall be subject to the jurisdiction of and construed
according to the laws of a jurisdiction which would cause a
material change in the rights of any member of 'the Appointed
Class hereunder or which would not recognise the validity of
this Trust if such non-recognition would result in the
revocation or termination of the Trust.
IN WITNESS whereof the said JOHN JtfjpREW FURZE has set his
hand and seal and the Common Seal jof GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN
TRUST LIMITED has been hereunto affixed the day and year first
above written.
I]
i;
l!
i
*
»
P R O B A T E
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the day of 19

before me a Notary Public in and for the Cayman Islands personally
came and appeared who on oath swears that
(• he was present and did see JOHN A. J|URZE duly sign and seal, and
as and for his act and deed execute acknowledge and deliver
the within Deed for the purposes therein mentioned.
•
SWORN AND SUBSCRIBED TO before me at George Town, Grand Cayman

this day of 19
Wxtness Notary Public

Cayman Islands
P R O B A T E
BE IT REMEMBERED that on the day of 19

before me a Notary Public in and for the Cayman Islands personally
came and appeared who on oath swears that
he was present and did see and
for and on .behalf of GUINNESS MAHON- CAYMAN
TRUST LIMITED duly sign and seal and as and for its act and
deed execute acknowledge' and deliver the within Deed for the
purposes therein mentioned.
fj SWORN AND SUBSCRIBED TO before me at George Town, Grand Cayman

this day of 19
Witness Notary Public

Cayman Islands
Ii
i
'i
ii
ll
il
Dated&
JOHN ANDREW FURZE
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED

original Trustee
DISCRETIONARY SETTLEMENT
i
ASHFIELD STUD
Telenonat Beauparc,
046-2$TBl Office tc Yard Navan,
31155 Home $ft•. . Co. Meath.
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ASHFIELD STUD
Telephones: Beauparc,
046-24161 Office & Yard Navan,
046-24155 Home Co. Meath.
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ASHFIELD STUD
Navan
046-24161 Office & Yard -
046-24155 Home J Co. Meath.
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c. A, d y ^ M j JUO*,*,*
( ^CCOUA^ COOCJ-X^
rv ASHFIELD STUD
' Beauparc,
Telephones: Navan>
046-24161 Office & Yard T
Co. Meath.
046-24155 Home
) ^ V ft. U+- 4 ixf-Lir.rto ^ ^
j u w L u ^ pLr »,V ft—U I M-wJ.
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^ H-+- C kw^ I>1*—L h* f^-? o-ff H ^

ASHFIELD STUD
046-24161 Office Be Yard Navan,
Co. Meath.
046-24155 Home
RJJL H-U^ ^ / ^ v U vf- Ht.
-fj VW- /-M-^J ^VUTMTVU^J
/» TvwJ/ $ t c trv^jl, ,
Vf—? vo / N A
u
— ^ - S j>trj Tvvi' cVv w^wi.
Hi / ( / tU UwUwLil wL<_t
HH
ASHFIELD STUD
046-24161 Office Be Yard f Navan,
046-24155 Home Co. MeatK.
U-+. of Vt^f- Li t^Wv . f Lfh^* V-^JX*.
^ — f f ^ vw t^dLl Ito fip-^b

0f L A I .
J LcW lo yr^vCvj, «/wl/
G+M
BANNERS *'IM.|fc» v4|lflM C < » M J U > f„un a
• omna
SlfniKR f>
*ccomrr «Ufc»|f» SUM f<j LEDGER
| ?SjAMrv|«E »««ULV
900.001
Appendix XV (107) (1) (0
Appendix XV (107) (l)(h)
) )
X&a U . V i a ^
WANG ORIGINATING DOCUMENT 1464T COST CENTRE G REF NO 3680Y
TOI 6 AND H DUBLIN
ATTN* . PAYMENT SECTION

Ck
FROMI 6UINNF8B MAHON LONDON
REFI CT/CHM/1464T
T EST__ 611D17.. OK_2.QHDO_

VALUE 18/3/86 HE HAVE CREDITED YOUR ACCOUNT WITH USD 9000.00 AHT
BEING FOR CREDIT TO A/C OF MARILY POWER
B/0 GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST.
REGARDS
C/T
^ C V0o OSÔM^CXJ?
D 12(39 19.3.86
1 OI I.
NO 1451-1903-01
S GUIMAN G*
"3 MARS EI
Appendix XV (108) Mr Fernando Pruna & Mrs Eudelia Pruna
Fernando Pruna & Mrs Eudelia Pruna.
a) Ninth memorandum of evidence of Ms Sandra Kells to the Moriarty

Tribunal as adopted by Mr Cathal McCarthy.
b) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 21 December 1984.
c) Letter of 11 December 1984 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Facsimile of 5 March 1985 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
e) Letter of 15 July 1985 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 19 July 1985.

Appendix XV (108) (!) (a)
NINTH
MEMORANDUM OF EVIDENCE
of
SANDRA KELTS
rrrrrvNESS & MAHON (IRELAND! LIMITED
The Bank has beenrequestedby the Moriany Tribunal to consider the following
matters :
1. The general operation of the Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited accounts with the
Bank
2. Details of the balances held in the said accountsfrom 1974 to date
3. Details of how the loans; which were "back-to-back", operated and the
meanings of the expressions "suitably secured** or "considered adequate'*
4. Loans to Pruna and Associates
I set out. hereunder, a brief history of Ansbacher and other relevant subsidiaries of the
Bank:
ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED

In 1969 Guinness ft Mahon Limited (hereinafter called "Dublin") formed a small
investment company in the Cayman Islands. Cn October 1969 John Guinness, a then
director of Dublin, was approached by John Collins, Manager of the Bank of Nova
Scotia, to know if Dublin would be interested infinancing the purchase of some land
in Cayman. This was done and it was the start of Dublin's involvement in Cayman.
In February 1971 Dublinformed Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust aa a bank with a "B"
licence. The issued capital was £10,000. The company was managedfor Dublin by
the Bank of Nova Scotia, with John Collins and John Furze, two Bank of Nova Scotia
officials, responsible. The operation of the Cayman companies' accounts with Dublin
was discussed by Mr. Guinness, Mr. Traynor and other officials in Dublin. This is
reflected in Minutes of a Banking Committee Meeting held on 19th. November 1971.
Onljth March 1971 an instruction was given to all departments of the Bank that no
new Vunent accounts or loan accounts could be opened without prior Board approval
There was a change in the sterling area in June 1972. The effect of this change was
that transfer of monies to Cayman required Exchange Control consent. With the
OB 15th Jemmy 1985 Joint Furze wrote to Dublin, informing it that some time ago
Cayman had act up a 5200,000 loanfor a Cayman entity which was tofollow the
usual "back-to-beck" procedure. Unfortunately, the security was never fUlly agreed
by Cayman's client and, as a result, Dublin was never advised. The loan, which was
made by Cayman, had since been repaid.
Advances wore made as follows:
1.4.84 540,00©
9.4.84 £100,000
3.5.84 560,000.
The loans wen at 14% par anufm, with a 2% differential in the value shared equally
between Dublin and Cayman. Cheques totalling 5327,299.92 wen enclosed with the
letter of 13th January 1985. There were three cheques, all made payable to Dublin.
They were drawn by Maxima Investment Corporation, Florida. Mr. Fernando Pruna
was the President end Chief Executive of the said Maxima Investment Corporation.
On 22nd February 1985 Dublin credited Cayman's account with Guinness Mahon &
Co., Ltd. in London with the sua of 5325,349.96, representing the balance plus
ix*orest on the becking depoafe accountsfor Mixjma ta The net
effect of this, it would appear, was that Cayman entered into transactions, using
Dublin, withom notifying Dublin of thefeet. The three cheques had to be put through
Dublin, as they were made payable to Dublin.
Dublin made a series of loans to Mr. Fernando Pnma and his wife, Edulia. The
maaimum amount outstanding at any one time by them in their own names was
51,068,000. These loans were secured by deposits by Cayman with Dublin.
Dublin agreed to advance the sum of U5.575,000 to a Mr. Jesus and Maria Barrios.
This was secured by a property in Dede County, Florida. A deposit waa also lodged
by Cayman with Dublin as security.
In August 1985 DubUn appeared, according to cotwapondsncat to have offered to
make available to a Mr. and Mrs. Andreas Pnma die sum of U.S.570,000, secured on
a property in Miami Beach, Florida. The Bank has checked the Credit Committee
Minute Booksfor 1985, the Executive Directors Minute Bookfor 1985 and cannot
find any reference to any loan to Mr. and Mrs. Andreas Pnma. The Bank,
fixrthennore, cannot locate any statement of accountfor such a loan. The Bank doea
not believe that such a loan was made by Dublin.
In November 1985 Andreas Pnma wrote to Dublin, saying that he would not be able
to make thefirst interest payment and that he had serious doubts that he could make
the principal payments when they were due. As a solution, he offered to transfer the
deeds of his property in Florida to Dublin in lieu of foreclosure.
InDecenbor 1985 DabHni wrote to Mr. andMn. Andrew Pruna stating that, in lieu of
foreclosure proceedings, tiwy would take is Dublin's name or that of its nominee
company, the title to the property.
In December 1983 Dublin smmgedfor the title to the property belonging to Mr. and
Mh. Andrew Pnma to be registered in the name of MarsNominecs Limited, whkh is
a wholly-owned subsidiary of Dublin. Subsequently, Mr. and Mrs. Pnma tendered a
quit claim deed in favour of Man Nominees.
I believe that Cayman was using the notepaper of Dublin to conduct business and
such notepaper was used in relation to Mr. Andreas Pruna.
Ia December 1986 Dublin agreed to advance to Raymond O. Fitzgerald 1243,000.
Thia Ion was made at die request of Cayman. It replaced a loan of 1243,000 made to
Mr. Fernando Pruna and his wife. The loan was secured by a deposit by Cayman with
Dublin and a moitgage ovcr a property in Florida.
In September 1987 Dublin wrote to an Attorney in Florida, mstroctmg him to draft a
warranty deed, wherein Man Nominees Limited conveyed the property surrender by
Andreas Pruna to Maxia Isabella Moore da Pnma, the wife of Andreas Pruna.
The warranty dead waa duly signed and sealed by an officer of Mm Nominees
Limited on 25th September 1987 in fkvour of Mrs. Andreea Pruna. It was then
returnedtothe Attorney or to Andreas Pruna. It ia not certain who obtained same.
InSepteober 1987 John ItaM wrotetoPadraig Cfelkryreganiing Dublin's advancing
U.S.S2.1 miQkmtohfortfaside ManagementfeDevefepottntCom^^ This company
was involved in a property development in Atlanta, Georgia. Dublin would receive
corporate guaranteesfrom Maxima Investment Corporation, of whkh Mr. Fernando
Pruna was President, as well as Barrows Holding timiferi (a Channel Islands
company). DubBa would alio receive a depositfrom CaymanofU.S.$2.1 million,
which deposit Cayman would hypothecate in favour of Dublin.
On 1st October 1987 Cayman wrote to Dublin, informing it that they had advanced
U.S.S2.1 mflHon, held in escrow, pending the closing on 2nd October of the
transaction in Atlanta, Georgia.
On 1st October 1987 Dublin agreed to advance to Maxima Investment Corporation a
sum ofU.S.S2.1 million. A depoafc was placed by Cayman with Dublin.
On 4th February 1988 Dublin wrote to Cayman, saying that there were no payments
since 28th July 1987 on the Raymond Fitzgerald loan. On 10th February 1988
Cayman wrote to Dublin. They stated that they had received no responsefrom Mr.
Raymond Fitzgerald and suggested that Dublin would write the loan off against the
deposit at a value dated 3rd February 1988.
On 3rd June 1988 the U.S.S700,Q00, being the balance of the ban to Mr. and Mrs.
Fernando Pruna was discharged.
On 9th 1988 •firm of lawyers, Wallace, Engds, Pertenoy, Marin &
Solowsky, based in Miami, Florida, wrote to Cayman. They informed Cayman that
Grand Jury Subpoenas had been served on theirfirm regarding Cayman, Dublin and
Mats Nominees Tim'tr1 The Assistant U.S. District Attorney overseeing the
investigation stated that he was interested in obtaining documentsfrom the three
companies and that he might issue additional subpoenas to the companies themselves
for the production of the documents. The Assistant U.S. Attorney had, apparently,
received information that Mm Nominees Limited was a subsidiary of Cayman and
that it held property in Dade County, Florida. Mr. Wallace of thefirm waa the
Regiatcnd Agentfor Cayman and Dublin and therefore the service of the subpoenas
on him waa valid aa against Cayman and Dublin.
The Subpoenas sought -
1. All documents and records pertaining to loans made to Fernando Pnma,
Andreas Pnma and their wives/or otherfiunily members, including all
correspondence rdatadto such loans.
2. AH documents and records pertaining to loans made to any corporation, other
frnaiiHttf entity to which Fernando Pnma or Andreas Pruna was an officer,
director or major stockholder
3. All documents, cotrcaporvdenca and other records patafniin to any transfer of
property, either real or personal, between Fernando Pnma or Andreas Pruna and
efeher Gotenaaa Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, DnbHn or Mn Nominees
LioutoA
4. All iftwanmwn, cuireapotukmco and records pertaining to Mars Nominees
LnJtfld
5. All records pertaining to any account in name or namea of Fernando Pruna,
or entitiea acting aa nomineesfor any of those named persons, including Without
limitation, (a) accounts statements, (b) certificates of deposit and (c) deposit
tooltSf boos NCQtfdie
6. All (IIHIIIM MMMBIB pnpmd by or on behalf of Fernando Pruna, Andreas
ftuna or any corporation or other business entity in which Fernando Pnma or
Andreaa Prune is an officer, director or major stockholder.
The period covered by the subpoenas was 1st January 1981 to 1st September 1988.
The subpoenaa were to be complied with by 23rd September 1988.
On 20th September 1988 Mr. Wallace wrote to tha Assistant United States Attorney,
raising issues aa to jurisdiction and whether or not the subpoenas were binding on
Cayman, Dublin or Mars Nominees Limited.
On 22nd September 1988 Cayman changed its namefrom Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited to Ansbacher Limited and wrote to the late Desmond Traynor. Mr.
Furze, who was the author of the letter, stated that the Pnma brothers had been clients
for a number'of yees. Although not mentiooed m the correspondence, Cayman was
fairly i^rtm fry* mbject of the Orand Jury invcstiggion was narcotics. This was
because the subpooas were served by a U.S. Federal Customa Agent at weU at local
police kfbnutkm that the Prunaa involvement was with illegal substances.
Mr. Furze stated that Dublin wore involved, since at one time Cayman msintained a
back-to-back situation with Fernando Pnma and his wife, which has been been
cleared by the sale of the property in Miami. Mm Nominees waa involved by virtue
of diefret that Andreas Pnma, tegisMnd the Florida property in thet name, afeet not
known by Mr. Ftoze. Although Mars Nominees executed a transfer over the property
a year ago, apparently the documentation was never registered. Mr. Furze's
understanding was that Andreas Pnma waa h custody in a Federal penitentiary and
that the United Statea Government was pursuing extradition proceedings against
Fernando Pruna, who was in Argentina. Mr. Furze was copying the letter to Padraig
Collery to put him on notice.
On 22nd September 1988 Cayman wrote to Padraig CoQary, enclosing a copy of a
letter to Deamond Traynor. He said that he had discussed the situation with Des
Traynor, as a result of which they were of the view that, if Padraig Collery were
approached by anyperson or entity in relation to die ownership of the property by
Mars Nominees and the intended sale of same, Mr. Collery should merely indicate
that he had received no instructionsfrom his client and was therefore unable to be of
any assistance.
On 27th September 1988 Cayman wrote again to Padraig CoQcrjr and reflated to a
telephone conversation between Mr. Collery and Martin Laatga&O'Keeflfc with Mr.
Furze.
On 18th October 1988 Mr. Wallace of Wallace Engeis wrote to Padraig Collery
regnpding the subpooons* He stated that, unless thsve w o special circBBStsncsSf his
suggestion waa that Dublin inpallt iously (tarnish the records which had been
subpoened.
On 23rd March 1989 Dublin signed a quit claim deed on tfce property in Atlanta,
wherein a loan had been paid by Dublin to Noithaide Management A Development
Company.
On 18th July 1989 Cayman wrote to Dublin, stating that the U.S. Government had
filed an arrest warrant sgaftut die property in Atlanta. Northgate luvaiitniims liu/iifcl
(a Cayman company managed by Cayman) being the nltimsre beneficial owner of the
property had reUnqcdshed any claim which it mijtftt have to die property and did not
intend to contest theforfeiture action.
On 21st Juty 1989 DubUu wrote to the Attorneys acting k Atlanta, inlxiniag the Arm
that DuhHn did not intend to conteat thefoifehure and, accordingly, would be gnteftil
if the Snn of Attorneys would take no action to contest same. Any claim which
Dublin may have had m the property waa thereby relinquished and they would be
gratefelifthe Attorneys couldforward the appropriate quit claim deedfor execution.
ll
On 20th Nonnbar 1989 the Attoneyi in Atlanta received a quit cUtm deed for
submission to Dublin.
On 22nd November 1989 Cayman wrote to Dublin, enclosinf a copy of die latter
from the Attorneys in Atlanta. They stated that Mr. Collery would know the "back-
to-beck" loan waa dischargedfrom the deposit proceeds some time ago. Therefore
the execution of the deed would not now involve Dublin in any (hither participation
with the particular reel estate development
On 30th November 1989 the U.S. States Attorneyfor the Southern District of Florida
served a complaint on Dublin's Secretary. The complaint waafor theforfeiture of the
property previously owned by Mr. and Mrs. Andreaa Pruna in hfiami, Florida.
On 30th November 1989 the U.S. States Attorneyfor the Southern District of Florida
saved a complaint on Msrs Nominees United'* Secretary. The complaint was
seeking theforfeiture ofthe property owned by Mr. and Mrs. Andreas Pruna.
On 8th December 1989 Cayman wrote to Mr. Wa!ta& the Attorney m Florida. They
stated that they wen aware of the property ibifctare notice hot, since tha client was
in Jail and that all Cayman's other records had bean surrendered to the U.S.
Authorities under the Narcotics Agreement in 1984, Cayman suggested that no action
betaken.
On 12th December 1989 Cayman wrote, again, to Mr. Wallace; They said diet in or
around 1984 they had been associated with Andreas Ptuna ad had various business
|f* * ^ y
1
* wwipwy himi— mm B A h b H w Wlm* T im>«rf At the
time of their association Mv Pruna owned the property in WBamL In 1985, unknown
to Cayman, Mr. and Mra. Pruna transferred the property to Mats Nominees I .imited, a
company wholly-owned by Dublin. Cayman waa advised after diefeet and, in
Scptaanber 1986, on instructionsfrom Cayman, Man Nominees Tiimited transferred
title to the oootftv. ovflsacsntiBeunder seal a otsit dams ***** wnice waa delivered bv
John Ftarae to Andreaa Pnma, with instxuetionafor the transfer to be registered. Such
registration, however, did not happen - hence the icfiaeuce to Mars in the arrest
warrant Cayman said that Dublin waa concerned at the allegations that Mara was
owned by I^^qusl Their concerts we that, by mention bomg made in tha complaint,
the BfMt haa frrnrnw associated with Prone* asidefrom the t^fTH"1* diet
the company was owned or controlled by Pruna. Cayman was seeking advice on
three issues-
(0 what acting if any, did Mr. Wallace recommend to be taken to correct the error
in the complaint relative to Mists Nbmmece Limited?
(ii) to what extent might Mars Nominees limited be adversely affected if; in any
ftxtuieuansection in die VS. by virtue of having bean named in die complaint?
(iii) Dublin had bean served with the arrest warrant and complaint, aa naturally had
Mara Nondneea Limited. To what extent should they acknowledge the service
proceaa?
hi January 1990 a pertner of Mfc Wallace, Jay Solowsky, wrote to Cayman and copied
the letter to Dublin. Man Nominees Limited had been listed on the Drug
AAnmMtnrioa. Naddis, computer. He advised that, if Mn Nominees
hadfature transactions is the U.S., it wat
be considered suspect.
On 2nd &tech 1990 Mr. Solowsky wrote to Cayman, saying diet he had spokaa with
the Assistant U.S. Attorney. She had requested that the Attorney prepare aa affidavit
disclaiming any interest in the property. Mr. Solowsky would send the Affidavit to
Cayman shortly. Subsequently, Dublin returned to Mr. Solowsky the Affidavit and
Weivcr of tidnL
On 23rd Mvdt 1990 the United Statea District Judgefar the Southern District of
Florida made an order diet a Letter Rogatory be entered into and that same be
ddhreved to the Assistant United States Attorneyfar transmission to suitable channels
of the appropriate judicial anthoriti«k the Repdifc The lettem Rogatory
stated that the United States Attorney is conducting an investigation of an alleged,
organised crime drugs wwn'^g operation, headed by Fernando Pnma. An
had been handed down and it charged Pnma and the members of his
organisation with crimes including operating and conspiracy to operate a continual
criminal enterprise dedicated to the importation of cocaine and marijuana into the
United Statea,from 1981 to 1988. The U.S. Attorney waa informed that evidence
relevant to the investigation might bt located at a beak in DabUn, Chdnafess & Mshon
Limited, 17 CoUegeOreen, Dublin 2. Evidence that had developed sofa showed that
the alleged organisation utilised several bank accounts located at Guinness & Mahon
and Cayman Trust Limited in the Cayman Islands to deposk profits from alleged drug
smuggling operations and to fhciHtatw the movement of the profits from drug
smuggling to other bank accounts located m countriea throughout the world. This
Cayman Trust was a subsidiary of Guinness Mahon Limited, a Dublin bank at 17
College Green. The Dublin beak had now sold the Cayman Trust to Ansbacher
T,muted The Dublin heedqttarters of Oubnesa St Mahon Limited held certain
fflrtjiyt for die and their aaaociatea snd made loans end hypothecated
deposits made by the Prunes. Correspondence concerning these matters passed
between the TraK in- Grand Cayman end the offices of Pet 0*Dwyer, J. D. Traynor
and Padraig CoQary and others in the Dublin bank. These deposits and transactions
were not onty in die Prunes' namea and their aasociates' namca butriaoin die names
of their nommeea' operations. For example, records show that Guinness St Mahon
Limited held mortgagee or intereeta in Pruna property. The entities and persons that
they were the subject ofthe request were aa follows:
2. Lcora mortgage
3. Andtees Pruna
4. Mats Nominees
5. Westwind Investment : Maiftna Investment : Nortfaside Msnagwnnnt *
Development, Notthgate Investments Limited, Tens ATM Ranch, Barrow
Holdings I imiteri. Westtee Condominium Project
6. Jesus Barrios and Maria Barrioe.
JJ-HE OP APPLICANT Fernando & Mrs. Eudelia Pruna.
ADDRESS : c/o G.M.C.T. P. O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, B.W.I.
BUSINESS / OCCUPATION
AMOUNT : U.S.5I35,000.00
PURPOSE : Personal
TERM : I year maturing 2nd October, 1985.
14% p.a. fixed.
COMMITMENT FEE Nil.
DRAWDOWN : By way of loan account.
SECURITY ! T h e following security held by G.M.C.T. to

our order. 1st Legal Mortgage on 12505 Keystone
Island Drive. No. i Lot 14 Block 2.
Guarantee signe dby them. Security may be
taken as adequate.
See over
BACKGROUND NOTES /
OUTLINE OP PROPOSAL :
' We have been requested by G.M.C.T. to make the above loan available.
T h e deposit will earn interest at 13% p.a. Interest is payable quarterly
in arrears and G.M.C.T. have undertaken to collect interest on our behalf.
See over
RECOMMENDED R E V I E W D A T E :2nd October, 1985.
Recommended
CREDIT COMMITTEE BOARD

DATE
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST UMITED
A Member of tha Gulnneas Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No (808-94) 94853/4 P.O. Box 887
TatMC CP4305 Brand Cayman

C a W Addraaa Qulnnaaa British West Indies
Via courier service

yourraf
our rat JAF/fdef
11th December 1984
:J Pat O'Dwyer Esq • »

Guinness & Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Pat,
I should be grateful if, value 1st October 1984, you would
establish on your books a loan of US$135,000.00 to Fernando
Pruna and his wife Eudelia Pruna in accordance with the attached
copy commitment letter. Our deposit with you is for a like
amount at 13<p.a. reviewable after one yea.-.
1 confirm that we are holding the security outlined in the
copy commitment letter, to your order. However, our client
has requested that you execute the attached discharge of
mortgage and return it to me undated.
There will be no need to issue billings for Interest. We
will take care of this aspect and will send you a cheque
for the interest due at the end of this month.
In due course I should be grateful if you would confirm all
to be inJ order.
"y,
Enc.
B/GM1/18 1OOQ/VOL64 16O
•'t> M&jMHIL tifa&OM bXLL *

ffrnZTmiNTEfiist 6 HE QUE dth"U..$\... (FOUR THOVA^,
SEVEN HUNDRED + TWENTY FIVE) MAS LOST? AND REQUESTED THAT Jt/f.
POSSIBLE YOU LET ME HAVE DUPLfC&TE, /1 UILL thfjEN PAY YQMn, ,UV
7 WN D/A A ffiftl DL MMWoVlf" PWHJUANO ' " ""
HUNDRED MB • mmmsSTT, XN.^&ÂWIMG*
RgCZSSING YOUR X tHOUSANb
r aMSHMMM&ft 1 1
lu. f f
/ y
V
(A V * A I . \A
* i
$JltYER » p
+MAMON LIMIED / DUBLIN Atf
riMk/'ir^ffa ' i i.
2520$ MRS kj#
4 3 0 5 GMCT
'to i h
J t i> t 4 m, \ it> 4
^ frma- #
\ GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Member of the Oulnnees Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No (809-94) 94053/4 P.O. Bo* 887
Tetax CP4305 Or and Cayman
Cable Addrees Quimeee British Weet indies
July 15, 1985
your rat
our ret
JAF/rob
Pat O'Dwyer, Esq.

Guinness C Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Pat:
I should be grateful if you would establish another "back-to-back"
this time for $160,000 value 15th April 1985, security for the loan
being a first mortgage charge over 2351 Keystone Boulevard, Miamij
The loan once again is to Fernando B. Pruna and Eudelia Prunârfta I
will forward the mortgage documentation in due course.
Loan interest is at 11% p.a., a cheque for two months interest being
enclosed. Future interest payments are due quarterly, the next being
^/-v on 15th September 1985.
Interest on our deposit with you will be at 10% p.a. amcyjwefftg to
$2,666.67. Please credit our account in London with^Jbhls amount.
Please let me know if you have any queries.
Yours sincerely,
JOHN A. FURZE
r*
.DDRESS : c/o, G.M.C.T. P. 0 . Box 887, Grand Cayman, B.W.I. %
CA Approval : Yes / No
lU&SSss / . ,, Permission Obtained N A
JCCUPATION : Company Director and wife. Date : '
HIS APPLICATION . ( N j-x S | e t 6 <ts âppropriate )

TYPE • ™n. AMOUNT V'H?. 3 .?ji22?..^ RATE : J . ' f f f , FEE
Loan U.S.$I60,000 * ll%F
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeM* eeee»eee»eeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeoeeeeeeeeee
PURPOSE / DRAWDOWN : If new or increased

facilities, is drawdown j
By way of Loan Accounts permitted prior to
completion of security ?
YES / N O
T E k M OF FACILITIES : REVIEW DATES :

9 months. 3rd March, 1986. M
10 months 15th April, 1986. ^
SOURCE OF REPAYMENT :
Not stated.
SECURITY If additional or existing

facility, ie security in
1st Legal Mortgage over 2351 Keystone Devd, Miami, Florida order ?
taken by G.M.C.T. Security considered adequate.
YES / NO
If No, give detail*
separately.
/-V B A C K G R O U N D N O T E / We have advanced funds to the above in the past on the instructions
O U T L I N E O F P R O P O S A L : 0 f G.M.C.T. We have now received, a further request from G.M.C.T.
to set up the abvoe two loan. A n interest differentiaiwill apply between the loans
and the backing deposits. G.M.C.T. collect the interest on a quarterly basis.
Related Facilities / Borrowers : CREDIT COMMITTEE 1

( Balance or Llfuit, whichever is greater )
Minute Due .lULlJh,T.„ 1
Recommended I
Total Exposure : $395,000.00
• —
e e e e e a e * * B
Approved I
Appendix XV (109) Mr Seamus Purcell
Seamus Purcell.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Seamus Purcell dated 28 June 2000.
b) Cheque dated 26 January 1982 in favour of Ms Seamus Purcell.
c) Guinness and Mahon statement of 20 May 1982 re GMCT.
d) Deposit a/c authorisation of 8 February 1984.
e) Deposit a/c authorisation of 6 February 1984.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. SEAMUS PURCELL
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 28TH JUNE 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. SEAMUS PURCELL
Represented by: MR. KEVIN BARRY
KENNEDY McGONAGLE BALLAGH
2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD
DUBLIN 4
INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. S. PURCELL MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
2 28TH JUNE 2000:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Purcell, we will start
5 our interview then. I
6 will begin by introducing myself. I am
7 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on
8 my left is Mr. Rowan. As you know we are the
9 Inspectors who have been appointed by The High Court
10 in this matter.
11
12 I should explain to you that, as I am sure your
13 solicitor has already explained to you, this is not
14 a Court of law. This is not a Tribunal. This is an
15 interview. We are going to ask you questions.
16
17 If during the course of the questions you wish to
18 take the advice from your solicitor please tell us
19 and we will stop asking you questions.
20
21 Similarly, if in the course of the questions we ask
22 you your solicitor wishes to give you any advice, he
23 can indicate this to us, and we will stop asking
24 questions.
25
26 Mr. Purcell, your evidence will be taken under oath
27 and I will now ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to
28 administer the oath to you.
29 MR. PURCELL: Okay.
4
1 MR. BARRY: Judge, Ladies and
2 Gentleman, obviously I
3 would point out that Mr. Purcell attends pursuant to
4 your powers under Section 10 and not voluntarily.
6 MR. BARRY: And under protest.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is understood.
8 MR. BARRY: Obliged, Chairman. I will
9 hand that in. That is a
10 copy of the statement. We sent a draft out to you.
11 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
12 MR. BARRY: There is one very small
13 amendment, which I have
14 left just marked.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well.
16 MR. BARRY: It is just a word changed
17 to usual.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. SEAMUS PURCELL, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Purcell, could we
5 begin by you giving us a
6 brief account of your career in business, both here
7 and in Northern Ireland, and the companies with
8 which you carried on this business? Just a brief
9 outline of your career in business is what I would
10 like at the beginning?
11 A. Well, my career in business is: I started working
12 in about 1937 with my father.
13 2 Q. Yes?
14 A. I was selling cattle and sheep in Ireland.
15 3 Q. Yes?
16 A. And then times were very bad at the time and there
17 was a big family of us, about ten in the family. At
18 that time then, after a few years, when we started
19 to earn a bit of money I paid off our debts, my
20 fathers debts. Then when I had all that done, we
21 had all that done, I started on my own in
22 about 1943.
23 4 Q. Yes?
24 A. And I looked after the family, all the family, from
25 there on until they all got big and went there ways.
26 So, then in about 1950 I started exporting to
27 England and I worked there until 1970. Then in
28 1970, in the 1960/70, I sent cattle to the Caribbean
29 and to different places, Portugal and different
6
1 places. Then after that I started shipping to
2 the Middle East.
3 5 Q. If I could just pause there for a moment. You said
4 about 1970 you worked there. You were based in
5 Ireland, were you, and exporting to England?
6 A. Exporting to England, yes.
7 6 Q. Then in 1970 you commenced then exporting to the
8 Caribbean, is that right?
9 A. Yes. In the late 1950's, if we go back to the
10 late 1950's.
11 7 Q. Yes?
12 A. I am sorry I am just getting way. At one time
13 Mr. James Dillon, when he was Minister for
14 Agriculture, asked me to go to France and I went to
15 France and I had -- there was a contract there and I
16 took that contract. That was my first time shipping
17 to outside Britain.
18 8 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes .
20 9 Q. Then in 1970 you branched out to the Caribbean
21 and Portugal, is that right?
22 A. In 1960. Yes, in 1970, yes.
23 10 Q. Yes?
24 A. Yes, that is right.
25 11 Q. I interrupted you. If you could just continue now
26 Mr. Purcell?
27 A. Then I exported to the Middle East. From 1980 to
28 1982 or something, in one year, I shipped 317,000
29 cattle from Ireland.

1 12 Q. Yes?
2 A. In about the 1982, I think. I am not quite sure of
3 that.
4 13 Q. Yes?
5 A. And then I did some barter deals. A barter deal for
6 all meat and cattle and sheep; sheep from Australia,
7 meat from Ireland and cattle from Ireland.
8 14 Q. Yes?
9 A. And that was for $155,000, a barter deal.
10 15 Q. Yes?
11 A. And then in 1985, about 1984/85, I bought some meat
12 factories.
13 16 Q. Yes?
14 A. And between the North of Ireland and the South of
15 Ireland we killed 10,000 cattle a week.
16 17 Q. Yes?
17 A. And we shipped every bit of that. We never put one
18 bit of meat into intervention. Then after a few
19 years, after -- at that time, when we were killing
20 10,000 cattle a week, we were shipping 11,000 cattle
21 a week.
22 18 Q. Yes?
23 A. And then unfortunately we had some problem with the
24 Department of Agriculture. They held up a lot of
25 refunds on us and the banks came along then and
26 looked for their money back. I owed the banks 49
27 million and 80 million in bonds. They came looking
28 for everything so I had to sell all the assets and
29 pay them and I paid them.

1 19 Q. When did that happen Mr. Purcell?
2 A. That happened in 1986 or 1987 or 1988. I think
3 1986.
4 20 Q. Yes?
5 A. About 1986 I think.
6 21 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes, and I paid them back the $49 million and I got
8 back all the bonds by January of that year, of the
9 next year.
10 22 Q. Yes?
11 A. So, that is the whole thing. Then I had to fight
12 back and try and come along again, and try and run
13 back and forward like. At the time then the Marts
14 trusted me. Marts trusted me and they gave me
15 credit.
16 23 Q. Yes?
17 A. And that was a big help to me.
18 24 Q. Yes?
19 A. So, I restocked away and shipped them, and got
20 Letters of Credit, and paid the Marts. So, the Mart
21 was still behind me at the time. The farmers were
22 still behind me at the time.
23 25 Q. After these problems in the late 1980's did you then
24 continue the business of shipping cattle?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 26 Q. Yes?
27 A. I never stopped.
28 27 Q. Yes. And you are still. You have not retired?
29 A. I have. Well, I gave it over to my sons.
9
1 28 Q. Your sons. Yes?
2 A. In 1991.
3 29 Q. Yes?
4 A. It think it was something like that.
5 30 Q. Yes?
6 A. But I haven't retired. I work for my sons.
7 31 Q. Yes. I am sure with this large business Mr. Purcell
8 you had a number of companies, incorporated
9 companies. I just wonder was there any main company
10 that you did most of your business through, your
11 export business?
12 A. In the 1970's, around there, I did it in
13 Seamus Purcell's name.
14 32 Q. Your own...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. In my own name.
16 33 Q. Your own private name?
17 A. Yes.
18 34 Q. You own private name. It was not in the name of a
19 company?
20 A. No, Seamus Purcell.
21 35 Q. In the 1970's. Yes?
22 A. In the 1970's, yes, and also into the 1980's.
23 36 Q. Yes?
24 A. I had one big contract in 1980 with Libya to fly
25 meat out everyday and that went on from 1980 to
26 1985, and that was in Seamus Purcell's name.
27 37 Q. In your own name?
28 A. Yes, my own name, yes.
29 38 Q. Yes. When did you start doing business through
10
1 a company?
2 A. Purcell Exports then.
3 39 Q. Yes?
4 A. I think we formed that company in about 197 6 but I
5 never used that company much until about 1983 or
6 1984. I am not quite sure about this.
7 40 Q. Yes?
8 A. Because the contracts were not in Purcell Export's
9 name, they were in my name.
10 41 Q. In your name?
11 A. Yes, in that time and how I remember that so well is
12 just a couple of years ago I introduced this
13 Egyptian man. He came over and I introduced him to
14 Eddie Kearns in Waterford Castle Hotel and he said,
15 "I suppose you know Seamus for a while?" He said, "I
16 have good reason to know him." He said, "I have
17 spent $270,000,000 with him." He was one of the
18 Government men.
19 42 Q. Yes?
20 A. So, that will just tell you the...(INTERJECTION).
21 43 Q. Yes?
22 A. Yes, the type of the business.
23 44 Q. Your carried on business in your own name. Then
24 in the 1980's you started using Purcell Exports Ltd?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 45 Q. Were there other companies too that you carried on
27 this export business?
28 A. No, there wasn't, no. Not at that time.
29 46 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
1 A. Purcell Meats came into it then after that.
2 47 Q. That is what I am coming to?
3 A. Yes.
4 48 Q. That was a Northern Ireland company, was it not,
5 Purcell Meats?
6 A. Purcell Meats, yes.
7 49 Q. Yes?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 50 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. But that was only -- I think that was about 1984 or
11 something like that.
12 51 Q. That was later?
13 A. Yes, later.
14 52 Q. What about Excelsior Enterprises Limited?
15 A. Pardon?
16 53 Q. Excelsior Enterprises Limited, do you remember a
17 company in your group of companies by that name?
18 A. No.
19 54 Q. You do not?
20 A. No.
21 55 Q. It was Ulster Meats Limited then?
22 A. That is correct, yes, Ulster Meats.
23 56 Q. That was the other company?
25 57 Q. Yes. I want you to describe Mr. Purcell, in as much
26 detail as you can, when you first had business
27 dealings with Guinness & Mahon and your meetings
28 with Mr. Traynor?
29 A. Yes. I would say I meet Mr. Traynor in about -- I
12
1 would say it must be the mid 1970's.
2 58 Q. Yes?
3 A. And at that time I met Mr. Traynor then I got an
4 overdraft from him. I got money. I borrowed money
5 from Guinness & Mahon. I got it.
6 59 Q. Yes?
7 A. And I got that on the strength of Letters of Credit
8 like that I would have coming in from different
9 countries.
10 60 Q. You had bankers Mr. Purcell?
11 A. Yes.
12 61 Q. Who looked after your ordinary commercial affairs,
13 did you? What was your Bank?
14 A. My bank at that time was Guinness & Mahon.
15 62 Q. Did they operate for your ordinary affairs as
16 well as all your commercial affairs?
17 A. They...(INTERJECTION).
18 63 Q. Did they?
19 A. Well, they did all my financial affairs.
20 64 Q. Yes?
21 A. They looked after.
22 65 Q. All your financial affairs?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 66 Q. Were looked after by Guinness & Mahon?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 67 Q. Did you have a current account there?
27 A. No.
28 68 Q. What sort of account did you have with
13
1 A. I had an account for Seamus Purcell just. I had
2 just on account. Yes, I had a cheque account there.
3 69 Q. You had a cheque account?
4 A. Yes, certainly, yes.
5 70 Q. That would have been a personal account in your own
6 name?
7 A. Yes.
8 71 Q. In addition then did you have loans from
9 Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. Yes, I did. A lot of loans.
11 72 Q. A lot of loans?
12 A. Yes.
13 73 Q. They would lend you money on the strength of
14 Letters of Credit which you were obtaining?
16 74 Q. From people who were buying goods from you?
18 75 Q. Yes. I would just like to find out how long did it
19 go on that you used Guinness & Mahon exclusively?
20 Did you move to another bank or banks later?
21 A. I used Guinness & Mahon up to 1990 or 1991 I think,
22 something like that.
23 76 Q. We know Mr. Purcell that you also used the
24 Ulster Bank, is that not correct?
25 A. Yes, on the meat business. That is
26 not...(INTERJECTION).
27 77 Q. Yes?
28 A. It was on the meat I was with the Ulster Bank.
29 78 Q. Yes. Are you making a distinction then between the
14
1 meat business and the cattle export business?
2 A. I am dividing the two of them because they are
3 two different... (INTERJECTION) .
4 7 9 Q. Dividing the two of them up?
5 A. Yes, they are two different, two separate,
6 companies altogether.
7 80 Q. Your meat business then?
8 A. Yes.
9 81 Q. Your bankers were Ulster Bank Limited, were they?
10 A. Yes, they were a consortium.
11 82 Q. A consortium of banks?
12 A. Yes, a consortium of banks.
13 83 Q. However, your cattle export business remained with
15 A. That is correct. All my live business remained with
16 Guinness & Mahon.
17 84 Q. Yes?
18 A. And then Guinness & Mahon helped with some bonds for
19 the meat and different things.
20 85 Q. Yes. Not only did you have an account in your own
21 name but you started using the company
22 Purcell Exports Ltd in 1983 or 1984?
23 A. I am not quite sure when that was.
24 86 Q. Yes?
25 A. Whether it was 1982 or 1984 I am not sure.
26 87 Q. I see. However, around about the early 1980's you
27 started using it?
28 A. Yes, something -- I thought it was nearer to the
29 middle 1980's but I am not sure.
15
1 88 Q. I see. Then whatever date it was, did you have an
2 account in the name of Purcell Exports Ltd?
3 A. Yes.
5 A. Yes, I did, yes.
6 90 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes. I am sure I did. I am not quite sure of that
8 but I am nearly sure I did.
9 91 Q. Yes?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 92 Q. The company Purcell Exports Ltd, its address is 14
12 Clyde Road?
14 93 Q. That was Mr. Stakelum's[sic] office, were they?
15 A. There was -- pardon?
16 94 Q. Whose offices were they?
17 A. They were belonging to Mr. Woods I think.
18 95 Q. Mr. Woods?
19 A. Yes, Mr. Frank Woods.
20 96 Q. Who is he?
21 A. He owned the offices. I rented from him.
22 97 Q. Is he an accountant?
23 A. No, I don't think so. I think he was a developer.
24 98 Q. A developer?
25 A. I think so, Mr. Woods, yes.
26 99 Q. Yes?
27 A. Yes.
28 100 Q. You must have had accountants in your business.
29 Yours was a very big business?
16
1 A. Yes, we had, yes.
2 101 Q. You must have had accountants employed in your
3 business?
4 A. Yes, we have, yes.
5 102 Q. Then you would have had accountants acting as
6 auditors of your business as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 103 Q. Who were they Mr. Purcell?
9 A. Well, at the time it was Pat McGuigan.
10 104 Q. Where were they?
11 A. Hugh O'Donnell & Company. They were
12 based...(INTERJECTION).
13 105 Q. Sorry?
14 A. Hugh O'Donnell & Company. They were based in
15 Limerick.
16 106 Q. Yes. Was he your auditors for a good number of
17 years Mr. Purcell?
18 A. He was, yes.
19 107 Q. Yes?
20 A. From — back from the 1950's I think.
21 108 Q. From the 1950's?
22 A. Yes, back from the 1950's.
23 109 Q. What about your own personal tax affairs? What
24 accountant assisted you on those?
25 A. That company.
26 110 Q. Yes?
27 A. That company, Hugh O'Donnell & Company.
28 111 Q. Hugh O'Donnell & Company?
29 A. Yes.
17
1 112 Q. And Mr. McGuigan in it?
3 113 Q. Is Hugh O'Donnell & Company still in practice?
4 A. No, they have changed. You see there (INDICATING).
5 They are -- I think they have changed a couple of
6 times.
7 114 Q. Yes. You say that in your statement?
8 A. Yes, yes, yes.
9 115 Q. You refer to it?
10 A. Yes.
11 116 Q. Yes. However, you still deal with them, do you?
12 A. Yes.
13 117 Q. With the firm that they amalgamated with?
14 A. Yes, the off-shoot.
15 118 Q. Yes?
16 A. That is left. Like if you -- a few fellows that
17 went out on their own out of that company, we deal
18 with those.
19 119 Q. Sorry?
20 A. We deal with the people that left the company, you
21 understand? They were in the company originally,
22 in Hugh O'Donnell's company.
23 120 Q. Hugh O'Donnell, yes?
24 A. And when the company broke up then I think some of
25 them went to Coopers & Lybrand.
26 121 Q. Coopers & Lybrand?
27 A. Yes, that is right, yes.
28 122 Q. I am talking about your own personal tax affairs
29 now?
18
1 A. Yes, but... (INTERJECTION) .
2 123 Q. Are they with somebody in Coopers & Lybrand?
3 A. Yes.
4 124 Q. What... (INTERJECTION) ?
5 A. Not Coopers & Lybrand. What is the name of the
6 company now?
7 MR. BARRY: I think the statement is
8 Grant Thornton, is it not?
9 A. Grant Thornton, yes. That is right, yes.
10 125 Q. Yes?
11 A. Grant Thornton.
12 126 Q. What is the name of the person with whom you are
13 dealing with? Who is handling your own personal
14 affairs?
15 A. What is the name now? Mr. Gleeson. Is it Frank,
16 Frank Gleeson? I am not sure if Frank Gleeson is
17 his name.
18 127 Q. Any way you can recall it later?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 128 Q. And you can let us know?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 129 Q. I want to bring you back...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. No, sorry. I am sorry. Gearoid Costello is the
24 name.
25 130 Q. Gearoid Costello?
26 A. Yes, sorry. That is it, yes.
27 131 Q. I want to bring you back Mr. Purcell to your first
28 dealings with Guinness & Mahon. How were you
29 introduced to Guinness & Mahon, do you remember?
19
1 How did it come about that you took them on as your
2 bankers ?
3 A. At the time I was having contracts and I was getting
4 it very hard to get bonds like. You would have to
5 have may be a bid bond going out for a contract and
6 I was told to go and ask Guinness & Mahon. So, I
7 went and asked. I got an appointment with
8 Mr. Traynor and asked him.
9 132 Q. Who suggested Guinness & Mahon to you?
10 A. It was a friend of mine, a fellow called -- he was a
11 vet. Hanley was his name.
12 133 Q. Yes?
13 A. Noel Hanley.
14 134 Q. Would you explain to me what was required in
15 relation to the bonds? Was this a performance bond
16 that you were required to enter into?
17 A. Yes, first you would have to put down a bid bond.
18 135 Q. Yes?
19 A. And when you -- then if you got the contract then
20 you would have to get a performance bond.
21 136 Q. You would have to get a performance bond by which
22 you would undertake to carry our the contract,
23 is that it?
25 137 Q. What role did the bankers play in assisting you
26 in that connection?
27 A. The banker would put the bond up for you.
28 138 Q. Yes. You would pay the bankers then for
29 this service?
1 A. They would put it up. No, you wouldn't pay the
2 bankers. They would put the bond up. The bond
3 was there and you would get back the bond.
4 139 Q. Yes?
5 A. But if you didn't get back the bond then you
6 were committed for payment.
7 140 Q. They would come to you then looking for it?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 141 Q. Yes?
10 A. Yes.
11 142 Q. However, they would charge you for this service,
12 would they?
13 A. Yes. They would charge you may be a half per cent
14 or 1%.
15 143 Q. Yes?
16 A. Or something like that, yes.
17 144 Q. You went to see Mr. Traynor then?
18 A. Yes.
19 145 Q. You saw him then in the Guinness & Mahon offices,
20 I take it?
21 A. Yes.
22 146 Q. Would this have been in the early 1970's, do you
23 think?
24 A. Yes, the early 1970's. It was, yes.
25 147 Q. Yes?
26 A. It might be. It could be though the mid 1970's. I
27 would say about 1975, yes.
28 148 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. 1975 or 1976.
21
1 149 Q. You got assistance from him in the ordinary banking
2 requirements. You got loans from him on the
3 strength of Letters of Credit?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 150 Q. And the bank entered into bonds on your behalf?
6 A. Correct, yes.
7 151 Q. You did business with them in the ordinary way?
8 A. Yes .
9 152 Q. However, at some stage Mr. Purcell a question arose
10 about transferring funds to the Cayman Islands.
11 Would you tell me about that?
12 A. Yes. In 1981 I asked Mr. Traynor -- I said I wanted
13 to get a dollar account because I would have to have
14 a dollar account. He said, "It is not possible in
15 Ireland," but he said, "I will arrange one abroad.
16 I will have a look at it and I will arrange one
17 outside the Country for you."
18 153 Q. Yes?
19 A. "Because," I said at the time, "I need to send
20 dollars out on commissions".
21 154 Q. Sorry?
22 A. I said, "I need to send dollars out on commission,"
23 like commissions. Like in those countries at the
24 time, in Egypt and those places, you had to have
25 an agent.
26 155 Q. Yes?
27 A. And that agent would get maybe 2% or 3% commission.
28 156 Q. Yes?
29 A. Of the contract.
1 157 Q. Yes?
2 A. So, you had to have dollars to be able to pay those
3 commissions.
4 158 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I had a bad experience in 1981 because I wanted
6 $1.1 million to go out to Egypt. How I remember
7 that so well is that I went to Mr. Traynor and asked
8 him and he said, "Leave it with me." This was going
9 on for about a fortnight or three weeks and I
10 couldn't -- I would ring him up an he wouldn't be
11 there. I went back to him again and I said, "I have
12 to have it," I said, "because I wouldn't get my
13 money. I wouldn't get paid on that Letter of
14 Credit." Hugh Baff[sic] was phoning the Letter of
15 Credit at the time and they were confirming it.
16 Eventually I got it, the $1.1 million but it held me
17 up for -- because President Sadat was shot and it
18 held me up again for about a month after, where I
19 was looking for him to get my $5 million.
20 159 Q. Yes?
21 A. So, that is what happened then. Then he came in
22 1982 and he said to me, "If you get me some dollars,
23 send me some dollars," he said, "I can open a dollar
24 account for you".
25 160 Q. Yes?
26 A. I went to him again in 1982. He didn't come to me.
27 I went to him and I said, "I have no dollars but I
28 might have some dollars," but I was owed dollars in
29 the Canary Islands.
23
1 161 Q. Yes?
2 A. Because I was shipping cattle to the Canary Islands.
3 I was owed that for a couple of years and I got that
4 money, I got it, eventually and I gave it to
5 Mr. Traynor.
6 162 Q. Yes?
7 A. And he said, "Okay. I will open a dollar account
8 for you".
9 163 Q. Yes. Mr. Purcell, this was all still in your own
10 name, was it?
11 A. This was all in Seamus Purcell's name.
12 164 Q. It was business carried on in your own name?
13 A. Yes.
14 165 Q. This was money that you were owed from the
15 Canary Islands?
16 A. Yes.
17 166 Q. It was transferred then to the Cayman Islands.
18 Did Mr. Traynor explain to you about the
19 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?
20 A. No. Mr. Costello would you say that again? I am
21 sorry. Could you explain that?
22 167 Q. Did Mr. Traynor explain to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 168 Q. Where it was going to in the Cayman Islands and
25 about the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?
26 A. No, he did not Mr. Inspector. Mr. Traynor said, "I
27 will open a dollar account for you".
28 169 Q. Yes?
29 A. "It is Okay. You can work away".
24
1 170 Q. Yes. Did he say where he was opening the dollar
2 account?
3 A. He didn't say.
4 171 Q. However, it was outside?
5 A. Outside Ireland. Other than that he never said.
6 172 Q. He said he would open a dollar account for you?
7 A. Yes.
8 173 Q. Did you know that Guinness & Mahon Ireland had a
9 subsidiary in the Cayman Islands?
10 A. No.
11 174 Q. When did you learn that?
12 A. I learnt that later on, may be after -- I didn't
13 learn a lot of things about that dollar account
14 until I got -- from the -- we got -- I think I got
15 it from Guinness & Mahon.
16 175 Q. Yes?
17 A. From when the enquiry came up.
18 176 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 177 Q. However, before that did you know that
21 Guinness & Mahon had a subsidiary company in
22 the Cayman Islands?
23 A. Well, I would be saying wrong if I did. I can't
24 answer you whether I did or not now. I can't say I
25 did. I can't say I didn't.
26 178 Q. Yes?
27 A. I don't know to be quite honest with you.
28 179 Q. Mr. Traynor did not tell you that he had put the
29 dollar account -- he put it out of Ireland?
25
1 A. Yes.
2 180 Q. However, he did not tell you where?
3 A. He didn't tell me. To the best of my knowledge he
4 didn't tell me. He could have told me.
5 181 Q. Yes?
6 A. But I don't know. I can't say yes or I can't say no
7 to that. I don't know.
8 182 Q. What there was was a transfer of funds from the
9 Canary Islands, funds that you personally were owed
10 and were paid?
11 A. Correct, yes, for cattle.
12 183 Q. For cattle?
13 A. Yes, and I will tell you, which is going to be very
14 had to believe, the company that paid me that draft,
15 the banker that gave out that draft, he shouldn't
16 have given it out because the company didn't have
17 the funds to meet it.
18 184 Q. Yes?
19 A. And that is it.
20 185 Q. Yes?
21 A. And I was very lucky to ever get that.
22 186 Q. Very well.
23 A. Yes.
24 187 Q. Approximately what are we talking about? Are we
25 talking about...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. $450,000.
27 188 Q. $450,000?
28 A. Yes.
29 189 Q. You think this was in 1982?
26
1 A. Yes.
2 190 Q. Thereafter, did you give Mr. Traynor dollars to top
3 up the account?
4 A. No. This is what I can't understand. When that
5 dollar account was open, the first dollar payment I
6 was able to get from that account would be $100,000
7 to one person outside. When I asked for that
8 $100,000 they said no, we will give it from Guinness
9 & Mahon, so they gave the $100,000. There was
10 another one of $30,000 and there was another one of
11 $50,000. That was all paid out by Guinness & Mahon
12 at that time. There was maybe $100,000 here and
13 there, I can't go back but I can remember a good
14 few.
15 191 Q. Did Mr. Traynor not explain to you what he was
16 doing?
17 A. No, he did not.
18 192 Q. Did he not explain to you that there were sums
19 lodged in Guinness & Mahon in Ireland, that there
20 was a lodgement here of money on deposit and that
21 you could use it?
22 A. As far as I was concerned that cheque I gave him
23 went outside the country and an account was opened
24 abroad, that is as far as I was concerned, nothing
25 else. Mr. Traynor was a man you could not approach
26 everyday or ring up everyday like that. At the time
27 he was a great help to my business although he sold
28 me a company that I had to let go bankrupt.
29 193 Q. Yes.
27
1 A. It was the Wilson Company.
2 194 Q. Yes .
3 A. The pet food company.
4 195 Q. Yes .
5 A. Maybe he thought it was okay, but the books weren't
6 okay.
7 196 Q. Mr. Purcell, just to come back to the transactions
8 when you were looking for dollars to make payments.
9 A. Yes .
10 197 Q. He told you the payments were going to be made in
11 Dublin?
12 A. Yes, he said, 'yes, it is okay, we'll pay.' That
13 will be what you want. That is all.
14 198 Q. He said, 'what did you want' and you told him. What
15 did you want dollars for?
16 A. I wanted dollars to pay commissions.
17 199 Q. Commissions ?
18 A. At that time when I had a problem with Department of
19 Agriculture I shipped 317,000 cattle in 15 months
20 and there were commissions to be paid on all those
21 cattle, every one of them. I had commissions to pay
22 to the Egyptians on all those cattle. I had a
23 dispute with one because they were charging me the
24 commission on the rates in Ireland and I should only
25 pay commission on the rates in Egypt.
26 200 Q. I am not following, Mr. Purcell, why you could not
27 pay these commissions in the ordinary way from a
28 dollar account in Ireland, why you had to go abroad?
29 A. It was illegal. It wasn't legal to have a dollar
28
1 account in Ireland.
2 201 Q. Who told you that it was illegal?
3 A. The bank told me that.
4 202 Q. What bank?
5 A. Guinness & Mahon told me.
6 203 Q. That it was ... (INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Mr. Traynor told me that it wasn't legal to have a
8 dollar account in Ireland in those days and I am
9 certain that is correct because I checked that with
10 other banks too.
11 204 Q. The illegality then was attached to having a dollar
12 account, was this in respect of payment of dollars,
13 the payment abroad of dollars that you had received
14 abroad, is that what he was telling you was illegal?
15 A. No, you could not have a dollar account in Ireland,
16 you could not hold a dollar account in Ireland.
17 Mr. Inspector, if you go back and check that, I am
18 certain that is so as I had asked many banks at the
19 time.
20 205 Q. Did you know about exchange control regulations?
21 A. Yes, I did, but I left all that to my bankers. My
22 bankers looked after all that, yes.
23 206 Q. You knew there was exchange control?
24 A. Yes .
25 207 Q. You knew that if you got foreign currency as a
26 result of your exports, you then would have to give
27 it to the Central Bank?
28 A. I am sure it is was all looked after, everything was
29 looked after like that.

1 208 Q. Similarly, if you wanted to buy goods abroad with
2 foreign currency, you could apply to the Central
3 Bank for permission?
4 A. Yes, but I didn't want to buy goods. If I was
5 buying abroad, I would have my letters of credit to
6 go abroad, to Australia and other places. I
7 wouldn't be coming to Ireland for that.
8 209 Q. Was there any reason that these commissions were
9 secret commissions? Was that a factor in the
10 situation?
11 A. Some of them, yes.
12 210 Q. Some of them, yes?
13 A. Yes .
14 211 Q. So these were secret commissions which would have to
15 be paid independently of the contract?
16 A. Correct, yes.
17 212 Q. Was this a factor in using the foreign account for
18 making these payments?
19 A. No, it wasn't a factor. It was a factor that you
20 had to use the dollars when you needed them.
21 213 Q. So this was a way of obtaining dollars when you
22 needed them?
23 A. Yes .
24 214 Q. These were dollars which you had obtained as a
25 result of exports to the Canary Islands?
26 A. Correct.
27 215 Q. Were you advised in any way whether or not there was
28 any breach on your behalf of the exchange control
29 regulations by what you were doing?
30
1 A. No, I wasn't advised.
2 216 Q. You were not advised?
3 A. No.
4 217 Q. When you went to make the payments, you were then
5 told that the payments could be made from Dublin?
6 A. Yes, and they were made from Dublin.
7 218 Q. How do you know they were made from Dublin?
8 A. Because I went down to the bank myself and got a
9 draft for $100,000. I went down and got cash for
10 $30,000 and I went down and got cash for maybe
11 $50,000 and I handled all those myself.
12 219 Q. Sorry, when you say $50,000, are these US dollars?
13 A. Yes.
14 220 Q. So you got US$50,000 into your hand?
15 A. Yes, from the bank.
16 221 Q. From the bank?
17 A. Yes.
18 222 Q. What did you do with them?
19 A. I gave it to the man that was with me.
20 223 Q. He was the person who was to get the commission?
21 A. Yes.
22 224 Q. This was a payment of commission. Was he an
23 egyptian person or was he an Irish citizen?
24 A. He wasn't an Irish citizen.
25 225 Q. Very well.
26 A. He was from the Middle East.
27 226 Q. From the Middle East?
28 A. Yes.
29 227 Q. He was entitled to commission from you?
31
1 A. Certainly.
2 228 Q. You paid him in cash?
3 A. Yes. Some of them would take drafts and some of
4 them would want cash.
5 229 Q. These were in US dollars?
6 A. Yes.
7 230 Q. That was your first transaction in relation to
8 payment of commission, were there later ones?
9 A. Yes, there were, yes, a lot of later ones.
10 231 Q. Did they always take place in the same way?
11 A. They did, yes, always took place mostly or you got a
12 bank draft, mostly drafts now.
13 232 Q. That would be a bank draft?
14 A. Yes.
15 233 Q. Payable by Guinness Mahon Ireland in US dollars?
16 A. Yes. Then we would pay some of them maybe from
17 Australia when we had contracts for Australia and we
18 would be working in Australia, we would pay some of
19 those commissions from there.
20 234 Q. So that instead of the sterling fund, the Australian
21 dollars coming back to Ireland, part of them would
22 be channelled off in to the payment of commission?
23 A. Correct, yes, but we would have letters of credit
24 open to Australia.
25 235 Q. Sorry?
26 A. We would have the letters of credit open to a bank
27 in Australia.
28 236 Q. You would go into the bank and get these drafts?
29 A. Yes.
32
1 237 Q. Later did you deal in cash or were drafts
2 sufficient?
3 A. Both in cash and in drafts, yes.
4 238 Q. Who were you dealing with in Guinness & Mahon when
5 you went in?
6 A. I was dealing with a chap called Barry McLoughlin in
7 those days.
8 239 Q. What about Mr. Traynor, were you dealing with him?
9 A. Yes, anything I wanted, a loan or anything like
10 that, I would have to ask Mr. Traynor.
11 240 Q. What about when you wanted to get payment to pay the
12 commission, would you go to...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I would ring Barry McLoughlin and he would ask
14 Mr. Traynor.
15 241 Q. He would ask Mr. Traynor?
16 A. Yes.
17 242 Q. How did the funds which were used for the payment of
18 commission, how were they topped up in the course of
19 the years?
20 A. How do you mean?
21 243 Q. I mean did the US$450,000 that you got initially,
22 did that do for all the period?
23 A. No, it didn't. I owed about $1.5 million at the
24 time in commissions.
25 244 Q. Yes, that is what I would have thought.
26 A. Yes, about $1.5 million commission and Mr. Traynor
27 promised me that he would look after it.
28 245 Q. What did he mean by that?
29 A. He would look after it. He said to me, "How much

1 dollars?" He said, "Get me dollars first, I will
2 open an account abroad for you".
3 246 Q. Yes.
4 A. They were the only dollars I could put my hands on
5 at the time.
6 247 Q. Yes.
7 A. I said, "But I need about $1.5 million," and he
8 said, "Well, I will look after that. That is okay.
9 I'll look after that".
10 248 Q. Did you understand from that that he would be able
11 to put into the fund that he was putting abroad
12 US dollars?
13 A. When I asked him, Mr. Costello, to put the
14 $1.5 million, I was amazed to see on a statement I
15 got that in 1982 on the second of it, I think in
16 February 1982 when I gave him that draft, the other
17 money that he said he would put in never came in
18 until six months after and I can't understand this.
19 249 Q. You are talking, Mr. Purcell, about a statement you
20 obtained of the foreign account?
21 A. Correct.
22 250 Q. You are saying that a $1.5 million came in, but not
23 when you expected it, it came in about six months
24 later?
26 251 Q. Mr. Traynor said he would do this for you and he did
27 it, but he did it late; is that correct?
29 252 Q. Do you know where Mr. Traynor got the money to put
34
1 into this account?
2 A. I don't know, I just don't know and I can't
3 understand the amount of money.
4 253 Q. Wherever he got it from, this foreign account which
5 you now know is in the Cayman Islands, Mr. Purcell,
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes .
8 254 Q. Was increased by US$1.5 million?
9 A. Yes .
10 255 Q. Six months later?
11 A. Yes, I knew that, yes. I know that, but I always
12 thought that it was increased by $1.5 million
13 immediately.
14 256 Q. Yes, I see.
15 A. That is what I thought.
16 257 Q. Mr. Traynor was not using his own money to put into
17 your account, would I be correct in assuming that he
18 obtained the US dollars from the trading which you
19 were carrying on and the payments which were
20 obtained for the trading?
21 A. Yes. At that time that Mr. Traynor gave me any
22 loans, it would be against assets and letters of
23 credit. So whatever assets that I had at the time,
24 Mr. Traynor had.
25 258 Q. I am just asking you about the transfer of US$1.5
26 to your Cayman account, Mr. Purcell.
27 A. Yes .
28 259 Q. Am I correct in saying that that must have come from
29 money which you were entitled to as a result of your
35
1 trading?
2 A. As far as I can understand that $1.5 million, I was
3 borrowing $1 million and putting down $450,000 to
4 pay the commissions.
5 260 Q. Yes .
6 A. That is where I came up with the $1.5 million.
7 261 Q. You think it was money that was lent?
9 262 Q. You think he lent you money?
10 A. Yes .
11 263 Q. On the strength of the $450,000 that you had?
12 A. Yes, yes. He told me at the beginning that I would
13 have to have dollars, give him dollars.
14 264 Q. Yes .
15 A. To open an account and I gave him the dollars, and I
16 told him I wanted $1.5 million. I said, 'I don't
17 want the problem coming up again because those
18 commissions will have to be paid.' He said,
19 'alright, I'll look after that for you.'
20 265 Q. I just want you to explain to us where Mr. Traynor
21 got the $1.5 million from that he put into the
22 Cayman account and you are now telling me that you
23 think he lent it to you?
24 A. There is no thinking at all about it, I am sure he
25 lent it.
26 266 Q. He lent it to you?
27 A. Yes .
28 MR. BARRY: I think the witness has
29 said that he does not

1 know, but he assumes and the rest of this is
2 speculation.
3 A. Yes. I asked him for $1.5 million and I said I
4 would have to have $1.5 million.
5 267 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You referred to the fact
6 that you did not realize
7 that the money was not put in until you had seen the
8 statement, is that the statement that you got
9 recently from Guinness & Mahon in the last few
10 years?
11 A. Yes, it is. Yes, that is the statement.
12 268 Q. This was money that you needed to pay commissions in
13 1982. In the following years you continued on your
14 very large export business and commission was
15 payable. I am just wondering what arrangements were
16 made for putting further money into this off-shore
17 account in the Cayman Islands?
18 A. As far as I was concerned I was covered like with
19 dollars to pay commissions. Anything with the
20 dollar account I don't know what -- I know what
21 happened to it because I see it there on the thing,
22 but it was Guinness Mahon's, that money was Guinness
23 Mahon's, that is that it was.
24 269 Q. It was Guinness Mahon's but you could use it?
25 A. Yes.
26 270 Q. You could go along and you did go along over the
27 years and pay very substantial sums by way of
28 commission, is that right?
29 A. Yes, that's correct.
37
1 271 Q. Per annum what would you have been paying to
2 Guinness & Mahon and paying out from Guinness &
3 Mahon commission? Would it have been $1 million a
4 year or $5 million a year or what would it have
5 been?
6 A. I am not quite sure.
7 272 Q. Approximately?
8 A. It is a very difficult question to answer at this
9 time because I would have to look at the sums and
10 the monies and everything else coming out and take a
11 percentage off it. I couldn't give you a straight
12 answer on that.
13 273 Q. I am sure that is so, it is a long time ago as well.
14 A. Yes.
15 274 Q. Mr. Purcell, I just want to get a couple of things
16 clear. Firstly, you were exporting during the
17 198 0 ' s and in the 1990's?
18 A. Yes.
19 275 Q. Secondly, you had to pay these secret commissions
20 during this period?
21 A. Yes.
22 276 Q. Thirdly, you got the money for the secret
23 commissions by going to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin,
24 is that correct?
25 MR. BARRY: Some of them were secret,
26 not all of them.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, the witness is
28 giving the evidence. If
29 there is a legal point you wish to raise, please
38
1 raise it with me.
2 MR. BARRY: It is merely that the
3 evidence has been given
4 and I wish to make sure that it is correct.
5 277 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you want it corrected,
6 it can be corrected later.
7 If there is a legal point, you raise it with me. As
8 your solicitor points out, some were secret
9 commissions and some were not?
10 A. Yes. Now, the commissions could be paid from
11 Australia, they could be paid from Germany.
12 278 Q. Yes.
13 A. And they could be paid from Ireland and I couldn't
14 tell you actually the amount.
15 279 Q. Just the ones that were paid from Ireland is what I
16 am concerned about at the moment.
17 A. Yes.
18 280 Q. The commissions that were paid from Ireland were
19 paid as a result of you going into Guinness & Mahon
20 and ringing up...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. Yes, certainly, that is correct.
22 281 Q. You would have got a bank draft or sometimes you
23 would have got cash?
24 A. Yes, that's right, and I could not tell you how much
25 it was.
26 282 Q. You cannot tell me how much it was?
27 A. No, I cannot, it is not possible for me.
28 283 Q. Am I correct in saying that the arrangement which
29 you had opened originally with Mr. Traynor stood and
39
1 it was from the off-shore account that these
2 commissions were paid?
3 A. Yes, it was from the off-shore account that those
4 commissions were paid.
5 284 Q. You do not know how he transferred money to that
6 off-shore account to enable him to give it to you in
7 Dublin?
8 A. No, I do not.
9 285 Q. However he did it, you were able to get the money in
10 Dublin?
11 A. That is correct, that is correct.
12 286 Q. Mr. Purcell perhaps we might have a break now if
13 that would be alright? We will have a break for a
14 cup of coffee or a cup of tea. If you stay here and
15 we will be back in about ten minutes or so.
17
18 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
19
20 287 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will resume our
21 interview, Mr. Purcell.
22 Just to clarify what I was talking about before we
23 adjourned, in the years after 1982 you left the
24 problem of getting funds for the off-shore account
25 to Mr. Traynor?
26 A. Yes.
27 288 Q. As far as you know in the years and after 1982
28 Mr. Traynor transferred funds to the off-shore
29 account?
40
1 A. Yes, in 1982.
2 289 Q. But thereafter?
3 A. No, it was six months after I think, was it?
4 290 Q. Yes .
5 A. Yes. I didn't know that. I didn't know that until
6 I saw that statement.
7 291 Q. I just want to get it clear, Mr. Purcell, what
8 happened in the subsequent years. You went to
9 Mr. Traynor and got commissions for the agents in
10 Egypt or wherever?
11 A. Yes, I got different commissions.
12 292 Q. You got different commissions?
13 A. Yes. I was shipping a lot out of Australia at that
14 time, sheep.
15 293 Q. Yes .
16 A. I also got commissions from Australia. Also when I
17 did my barter deal with the $155 million barter
18 deal, I couldn't get any bank, only I was lucky to
19 get a bank in Germany to look after it and that was
20 all in dollars too. The commissions were paid out
21 of that.
22 294 Q. What I want to ask you about, Mr. Purcell, is how
23 did the off-shore account get increased by the
24 amount of dollars that you needed to pay the
25 commissions ?
26 A. When I asked for the account I said I wanted
27 $1.5 million.
28 295 Q. Yes .
29 A. When I gave him the $0.5 million, I was only of the

1 impression that he was putting that millon dollars
2 in.
3 296 Q. You were talking about 1982 when it began.
4 A. Yes, when it began, but he didn't put it in and I
5 never knew that.
6 297 Q. I want you to talk about later years.
7 A. The later years?
8 298 Q. Yes .
9 A. On the commissions?
10 299 Q. Yes .
11 A. Later on in the year?
12 300 Q. No, in late 1983, 1984 and 1985, what happened in
13 those years?
14 A. In those years, you see, all the contracts were not
15 commissioned. It is only compulsory in Egypt that
16 you had to have an agent, you didn't have to have an
17 agent in the other countries that you were dealing
18 with. Therefore, you give $100,000 here and
19 $20,000 there to some of the people that would help
20 you inside in the company.
21 301 Q. Did you have to pay commissions in the following
22 years ?
23 A. Yes, you had to pay commissions, I'm even paying
24 commissions up to today.
25 302 Q. Would you get the commissions by going into
27 A. No, I would get the commissions for whatever bank I
28 would be dealing with.
29 303 Q. I am just wondering, this arrangement that you

1 talked about in 1982 was about commissions?
2 A. Yes .
3 304 Q. Did that finish in 1982, that arrangement?
4 A. No, it didn't. The commissions always stayed on
5 there.
6 305 Q. The off-shore...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Yes, that finished as far as I was concerned.
8 306 Q. Yes?
9 A. Yes .
10 307 Q. You have seen the documents that were forwarded to
11 you by Guinness & Mahon, is that right?
12 A. I did, yes.
13 MR. BARRY: Are we referring to the
14 documents that were with the statement?
16 MR. BARRY: Yes.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 308 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You have seen the
19 documents that they
20 forwarded to you?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 309 Q. Am I correct in understanding that you agree that
23 Seattle Securities Limited must have been a company
24 that was formed in the Cayman Islands, which held
25 funds to which you were entitled?
26 A. I never knew anything about Seattle Securities.
27 310 Q. Yes?
28 A. And I never saw anything about Seattle Securities.
29 311 Q. Yes?
43
1 A. And I just can't understand Seattle Securities and
2 "Ansbacher". I can't understand this at all.
3 312 Q. I know you say that?
4 A. Yes.
5 313 Q. However, looking at it now do you agree that it
6 would appear that these were your funds in the name
7 of that company?
8 A. I left it to Mr. Traynor when I gave him those
9 dollars.
10 314 Q. Yes?
11 A. And I knew that commissions would have to be paid
12 against those dollars.
13 315 Q. Yes?
14 A. And as far as I was concerned so long as I got the
15 commissions to pay that was it.
16 316 Q. However, Mr. Purcell, I am just wondering are you
17 agreeing with me or disagreeing with me that the
18 account in the name of Seattle Securities Limited?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 317 Q. Which now appear from the documents that you have
21 obtained is an account in the name of a company
22 which are your funds?
23 A. Yes, but I had nothing -- no Seattle Securities as
24 far as I am concerned.
25 318 Q. Yes?
26 A. They were there, I see it on the statement, but I
27 knew nothing about Seattle Securities.
28 319 Q. I understand what you are saying to me?
29 A. Yes, yes.
44
1 320 Q. However, I just want to get it clear?
2 A. Yes.
3 321 Q. You said "yes". You are agreeing that they are your
4 funds but you knew nothing about them, is that what
5 you are saying?
6 A. I knew nothing about Seattle Securities.
7 322 Q. However, are you agreeing they are
8 your...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I knew about the funds, the money, I gave on the
10 cheque from Portugal.
11 323 Q. Yes. We will come to that in a moment?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 324 Q. Are you agreeing with me that the funds that were in
14 the account in the name of Seattle Securities were
15 your funds?
16 A. I can't agree with you because I don't -- I know now
17 they are my funds but I couldn't agree with you at
18 the time.
19 325 Q. At the time?
20 A. No.
21 326 Q. Exactly. I understand that?
22 A. Yes.
23 327 Q. You know now that they were your funds?
24 A. Yes, I know now, yes.
25 328 Q. You did not know anything about Seattle Securities ?
26 A. No, no. Nothing at all about it, no.
27 329 Q. You have seen the documents too that there was an
28 account in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin in the name of
29 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust with the code "Y" after
45
1 it?
2 A. Yes.
3 330 Q. Or under it?
4 A. Yes.
5 331 Q. You have seen those documents?
6 A. I have seen that "Y", yes.
7 332 Q. You knew nothing about that account at the time?
8 A. Nothing whatsoever about it.
9 333 Q. Do you accept now Mr. Purcell that they were your
10 funds?
11 A. Well, "Y", it is down on the statement that I have
12 it. I am supposed to have Seattle Securities. I am
13 supposed to have "Y".
14 334 Q. Yes?
15 A. Which I knew nothing at all about.
16 335 Q. Yes?
17 A. Or never even heard it or never heard the name
18 of "Y".
19 336 Q. Yes. I am just wondering do you accept now that
20 they are your funds?
21 A. Well, as far as I am concerned they were
22 Guinness & Mahon's funds.
23 337 Q. Yes?
24 A. Because Guinness & Mahon had them. They had them.
25 338 Q. Do you not accept then that the
26 account...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I don't accept it because -- for the simple reason
28 is that the money that Guinness & Mahon had there,
29 whatever they were doing with it and whatever they
46
1 were not doing with it, I owed it to them. They
2 were giving me -- they were offsetting me.
3 339 Q. Yes?
4 A. And that is what I can read from the accounts.
5 340 Q. We will just refer then to this Madrid cheque to
6 which you have referred?
7 A. Canary Islands.
8 341 Q. Page 45 please (Same Handed) (Exhibit 1)?
9 A. Thank you.
10 342 Q. You will see that is a Banco Intercontinental
11 Espanol - Madrid?
12 A. Yes.
13 343 Q. Spanish Intercontinental Bank - Madrid and it is
14 payable to you personally?
15 A. Yes.
16 344 Q. It is for a sum of US$432,438.24?
17 A. Yes.
18 345 Q. You see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 346 Q. I think somebody had written on that:
21
22
"File Seattle Securities"?
23
24 A. Yes.
25 347 Q. I take it that you have seen what happened to that
26 cheque at page 56. If you would just look at the
27 ledger. It our 56 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 2).
28 MR. BARRY: Yes.
29 A. Thank you.
47
1 348 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Do you see this
2 Guinness Mahon Cayman
3 Trust and then the "Y" after it? It is there on
4 the left-hand side, the top left-hand side. Do you
5 see that Mr. Purcell?
6 A. "Y".
7 349 Q. Do you see Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust? Do you see
8 that typed on the top left-hand side?
10 350 Q. You see after Limited the letter "Y"?
11 A. Yes, I see that, yes.
12 351 Q. You see that?
13 A. Sorry, I see that now, yes.
14 352 Q. That is an account in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
15 A. Yes.
16 353 Q. The account's name is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
17 and there is a "Y" after it?
18 A. Yes.
19 354 Q. Then there is the currency. It is a US dollar
20 account?
21 A. Yes.
22 355 Q. The date is on the left-hand side of the page. It
23 is the 20th May 1982?
24 A. Yes.
25 356 Q. Do you see that?
26 A. Yes.
27 357 Q. Do you see the first credit that is lodged
28 $432,438.24?
29 A. Yes, yes.
48
1 358 Q. It is not a reasonable assumption that was the
2 cheque payable to you?
3 A. Correct.
4 359 Q. Your money was lodged into the Guinness Mahon Cayman
5 Trust Limited account in Guinness & Mahon with the
6 code "Y" after it?
7 A. I see that now, yes.
8 360 Q. You did not know at the time?
9 A. No way. I did not know anything about "Y".
10 361 Q. It is a long time ago Mr. Purcell. However, it is a
11 considerable amount of money. Can you remember
12 getting a cheque for $432,438?
13 A. Yes.
14 362 Q. You can remember it, can you?
15 A. I remember it just the very same as it happened
16 yesterday.
17 363 Q. Tell me what you did with the cheque?
18 A. I gave it to Mr. Traynor.
19 364 Q. You gave it to Mr. Traynor?
20 A. Yes.
21 365 Q. I see. What was it for?
22 A. It was for to pay commissions.
23 366 Q. Yes?
24 A. And to open a dollar account.
25 367 Q. Yes. Where had that money come from?
26 A. It came from the Canary Islands.
27 368 Q. The Canary Islands?
28 A. Yes.
29 369 Q. This was US dollars. You gave him the cheque. This
49
1 was the beginning, was it, of the off-shore
2 arrangement that you had made with Mr. Traynor?
3 A. It was, yes.
4 370 Q. Yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 371 Q. There was a balance brought forward, if you look on
7 the right-hand side, so you had, obviously, put
8 earlier funds in this account?
9 A. I put no earlier funds in this account.
10 372 Q. Yes.
11 A. Definitely not.
12 373 Q. However, any way the...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I put no earlier funds in.
14 374 Q. Does it not appear that the money that you gave to
15 Mr. Traynor, your money, was credited to the
16 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account
17 coded "Y"?
18 A. I don't know nothing about that that. Nothing
19 at all about it.
20 375 Q. I know you know nothing about it?
21 A. No.
22 376 Q. Is that not a...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. Well, I trusted Mr. Traynor.
24 377 Q. Yes?
25 A. Because Mr. Traynor -- if I hadn't Mr. Traynor at
26 the time I couldn't do the business I was doing.
27 378 Q. Yes?
28 A. No way.
29 379 Q. Yes?
50
1 A. But could I do the business and I trusted
2 Mr. Traynor with everything and as far as I was
3 concerned he was the best banker I ever met in
4 my life.
5 380 Q. Yes. I know you left it to Mr. Traynor. However,
6 can you see any other explanation for the transfer,
7 to which I have referred, other than your cheque
8 went into that account?
9 A. Yes, I can't see any other explanation.
10 381 Q. Any explanation?
11 A. I can't. I am sorry that I can't help you with
12 anything.
13 382 Q. Yes?
14 A. I just don't know.
15 383 Q. You left it to Mr. Traynor?
16 A. Yes, yes. I just don't know.
17 384 Q. Yes. I am just wondering about the use of the
18 off-shore account that was then in existence. Did
19 you know that that remained in existence, that
20 off-shore account?
21 A. After about 1982, 1983 or 1984 I had forgotten
22 altogether about that account.
23 385 Q. Yes?
24 A. I had forgotten because Mr. Costello I was away
25 most of the time. I was, I would say, eight or
26 nine months a year out of Ireland.
27 386 Q. Yes?
28 A. And I had forgotten completely about that.
29 387 Q. Yes?
1 A. And at that time I was away all the time. I was in
2 -- I spent seven months/six months in Libya and
3 about three months in Australia in those years.
4 388 Q. Yes. When you returned would you get any statement
5 of account from Mr. Traynor?
6 A. I did the working part Mr. Costello. I worked all
7 the time. I never bothered much looking at
8 accounts.
9 389 Q. Yes?
10 A. Or anything else.
11 390 Q. Yes?
12 A. But in the days when I am telling you about, that I
13 would go to Guinness & Mahon myself in 1982, I
14 didn't want anybody else knowing about those
15 people being given commissions.
16 391 Q. Yes?
17 A. If you understand me?
18 392 Q. So you...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. That is why I did it myself.
20 393 Q. You did it yourself?
21 A. Yes.
22 394 Q. I take it you did not tell your own accountant that
23 you were opening this, that Mr. Traynor was opening
24 this account? You did not tell your accountant?
25 A. At the time I would say I did because I would say he
26 knew at that time that we needed a dollar account.
27 395 Q. Is that your accountant, your personal accountant?
28 A. That is...(INTERJECTION).
29 396 Q. Or your business accountant?
52
1 A. Business accountant.
2 397 Q. Your business accountant?
3 A. Yes.
4 398 Q. I would just like to refer you to another document.
5 It is tab 8. It is page 70 (Same handed). This is
6 an internal document. It is 1984 (Exhibit 3)?
7 A. Yes.
8 399 Q. It is an authorization to open a deposit account?
9 A. Yes.
10 400 Q. Do you see the account name: "GMCT" and then "Y" on
11 the left-hand side?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 401 Q. That is the account to which I referred you to
14 before, the bank statement in 1982. Do you see
15 that?
16 A. Yes.
17 402 Q. "GMCT"?
18 A. Yes.
19 403 Q. And "Y"?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 404 Q. Do you see on the right-hand side:
22
"Back-to-back with GM loan,"
23
24 do you see that?
25 A. GM loan.
26 405 Q. It is hard to make out?
27 A. Yes.
28 406 Q. However, that seems to be what is written there?
29 A. Yes, "Back-to-back with GM loan", yes.
53
1 407 Q. Yes?
2 A. I see that, yes.
3 408 Q. You are very familiar with what a back-to-back loan
4 is?
6 409 Q. Would I be correct in saying that that appeared to
7 be that there was to be a lodgement, which was to be
8 used as a back to back loan, Deutschemark loan?
9 A. Yes, it did. That seems to be the case here but I
10 knew nothing about it.
11 410 Q. I will come to that in a moment?
12 A. Yes.
13 411 Q. Yes. You see the amount there at the end in pounds?
14 A. Yes.
15 412 Q. It is £579...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. It is £5,797,090.
17 413 Q. It is £5 million, sorry. Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 414 Q. It is £5 million?
20 A. Yes.
21 415 Q. Yes. There was to be a back to back loan. This was
22 to be used, this lodgement was to be used?
23 A. Yes.
24 416 Q. Is that not so?
25 A. I am not -- I can't understand this at all.
26 417 Q. Yes?
27 A. I can't. I am very very sorry but I can't give
28 you an answer on it.
29 418 Q. Yes?
54
1 A. It is something -- to me it is amazing.
2 419 Q. Do you see page 143 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 4)?
3 A. Thank you.
4 420 Q. Do you see that this is Purcell Exports Ltd?
5 A. Yes.
6 421 Q. It is:
7
"14 Clyde Road, Ballsbridge"?
8
9 A. Yes.
10 422 Q. Do you see that it is for Deutschemarks,
11 DM6,000,000?
12 A. Yes.
13 423 Q. The review date is the 3rd August 1984?
14 A. Yes.
15 424 Q. Do you recall that at all?
16 A. No.
17 425 Q. You do not?
18 A. This is a mystery to me altogether.
19 426 Q. Sorry?
20 A. It is a mystery to me, this is.
21 427 Q. It is a mystery?
22 A. Because I wasn't dealing in Deutschemarks.
23 428 Q. Sorry?
24 A. I was not dealing in Deutschemarks at the time with
25 any contracts.
26 429 Q. Yes?
27 A. All my contracts were in dollars.
28 430 Q. Yes?
29 A. I just can't understand this.
55
1 431 Q. Yes. I take it that you have had a look at this
2 Mr. Purcell (Exhibit 4)?
3 A. Yes, I saw this.
4 432 Q. Since you got them?
5 A. Yes.
6 433 Q. Would you agree with me that it looks as if this
7 account, the Cayman Islands account that was coded
8 "Y", a deposit was made in the name of that company
9 or $5 million, was used as a back-to-back loan to
10 your company Purcell Exports Ltd?
11 A. I couldn't tell you what they were doing with this.
12 434 Q. Yes?
13 A. I haven't a clue.
14 435 Q. Yes?
15 A. I couldn't give you an answer one way or the other
16 on it.
17 436 Q. Yes?
18 A. I am very sorry but I can't.
19 437 Q. I can understand Mr. Purcell that you might not have
20 been there?
21 A. Yes.
22 438 Q. You might not have been in the Country at this time?
23 A. Yes, but that is beside the point. Why
24 Deutschemarks? What would I be doing with
25 Deutschemarks?
26 439 Q. Yes?
27 A. I wasn't dealing with them.
28 440 Q. Yes?
29 A. What would you be doing with them?
56
1 441 Q. However, be that as it may?
2 A. Yes.
3 442 Q. Your company was Purcell Exports Ltd?
4 A. Yes.
5 443 Q. 14 Clyde Road?
6 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
7 444 Q. It looks as if there was a loan of DM6,000,000?
8 A. Yes.
9 445 Q. You cannot explain that?
10 A. At that time Guinness & Mahon were only dealing with
11 the live business. They weren't dealing with the
12 meat business. It was the Ulster Investment Bank
13 that was dealing with the consortium with the meat
14 business.
15 446 Q. Yes?
16 A. And there was no meat or no live business in
17 Deutschemarks whatsoever.
18 447 Q. What was Purcell Exports dealing with?
19 A. They were dealing with -- no, I am speaking for
20 Purcell Exports too here.
21 448 Q. Yes. They were dealing with live cattle, were
22 they not?
23 A. Yes, they were dealing with live cattle and meat.
24 They were -- Purcell Meats were dealing with the
25 meat.
26 449 Q. Yes?
27 A. They were dealing with live cattle at the time.
28 450 Q. Yes. I am just wondering Mr. Purcell whether or not
29 you may have had an interest in an off-shore account
57
1 before 1982. Is that possible do you think?
2 A. No way. Nothing, no.
3 451 Q. Did Mr. Traynor ever suggest to you that you should
4 have an off-shore account, other than before 1982?
5 A. He never suggested anything to me at all.
6 452 Q. Am I correct in saying that this was merely an
7 off-shore account that was opened, in the way you
8 have indicated, and that you never had any Trust
9 organised by Mr. Traynor?
10 A. No, never.
11 453 Q. I see. As the years past and you went to obtain
12 commissions in the way you have indicated to me, do
13 you remember Mr. Traynor leaving Guinness & Mahon?
15 454 Q. In 198...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. Yes, from 1984 or 1985 on I never had any -- I never
17 met Mr. Traynor much after that.
18 455 Q. After that?
19 A. No.
20 456 Q. Did you ever visit him in Fitzwilliam Square, in his
21 offices in Fitzwilliam Square?
22 A. No, never, no.
23 457 Q. You continued to deal with Guinness & Mahon, did
24 you, after 1984?
25 A. Yes, right up to about 1990 I think.
26 458 Q. Who did you deal with when you went there?
27 A. When I started first?
28 459 Q. No, no. You told us it was Mr. Traynor you dealt
29 with?
58
1 A. Yes.
2 460 Q. Then you have now said that it...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. There was different people then there. There
4 was...(INTERJECTION).
5 4 61 Q. Who do you remember?
6 A. Andy O'Donnell I remember.
7 462 Q. Yes?
8 A. Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Andy O'Donnell.
9 463 Q. Did you meet Mr. Collery?
10 A. No, I don't know him.
11 464 Q. Did you meet Mr. Lanigan O'Keeffe?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 465 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 466 Q. Was Mr. Lanigan O'Keeffe looking after your
16 business?
17 A. He was, yes, some of the time and then Mr. O'Donnell
18 took over from him.
19 467 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 468 Q. Because you, in fact, had a considerable amount of
22 business with Guinness & Mahon, apart altogether
23 from what we have been talking about?
24 A. Yes, I had.
25 469 Q. There were very large sums of money on loan?
26 A. Yes.
27 470 Q. Then you ran into these financial hard times that
28 you have described to us?
29 A. Yes, yes.
59
1 471 Q. Can you tell us when you finished, when you would
2 have ceased, having a backing arrangement with
3 Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. I am not quite sure. It must be around 1990 or
5 something like that I would say.
6 472 Q. Did you cease altogether then?
7 A. Yes.
8 473 Q. You think about 1990?
9 A. I think so, yes. I think so.
10 474 Q. You would not have had any personal account there
11 after that?
12 A. No, I had nothing. No personal account there.
13 475 Q. I see. Your personal account would have been moved
14 to another bank?
15 A. I never had a personal account.
16 476 Q. Sorry?
17 A. Myself, I never had one. For myself, my own self, I
18 never had?
19 477 Q. Sorry, I thought you told me that...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. I never had an account personally. It was always a
21 company account. Like I could write cheques. I
22 never kept one in Seamus Purcell himself, in my own
23 name.
24 478 Q. I misunderstood you. Did you not have a personal
25 account in your own name in Guinness & Mahon in the
26 early days?
27 A. No, I didn't. I never had an account. It was
28 Seamus Purcell & Company, whatever you call it.
29 479 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
60
1 A. Yes, but that was it, Seamus Purcell. I never had a
2 personal account not to the best of my knowledge. I
3 never had a personal account anywhere.
4 480 Q. I may have misunderstood you?
5 A. Yes. I never had a personal account anywhere.
6 4 81 Q. What was the name of the company then?
7 A. Seamus Purcell & Company, that is what it was.
8 482 Q. Was there a company different to Purcell Exports
9 Ltd?
10 A. Seamus Purcell was different to Purcell Exports.
11 483 Q. No. I will have to ask you to be a little bit
12 more accurate?
13 A. Yes.
14 484 Q. I thought that Purcell Exports Ltd was a company
15 that was formed fairly late?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 485 Q. I thought you said that all your dealings were in
18 your own name?
19 A. Correct, yes.
20 486 Q. All... (INTERJECTION)?
21 A. In Seamus Purcell & Company. That was the name of
22 it. That was it. Seamus Purcell & Company.
23 487 Q. Sorry, then perhaps I am again misunderstanding?
24 A. Yes.
25 488 Q. It was just Seamus Purcell & Company?
27 489 Q. However, it was unincorporated. It was not a
28 company, in fact?
29 A. No, it wasn't.
61
1 490 Q. It was just in your name?
3 4 91 Q. Seamus Purcell & Company?
4 A. That is right, yes, and that company -- the meat --
5 we flew meat everyday from Shannon in that company's
6 name for 1980 to 1985.
7 492 Q. Yes. However, it was not a company. It was not an
8 incorporated company?
9 A. No, it wasn't, no.
10 493 Q. It was just your name?
11 A. That is all, yes, Seamus Purcell.
12 494 Q. It was a trading name that you used?
13 A. A trading name, that is right.
14 495 Q. Did you, in fact, register it as a trading name do
15 you know?
16 A. Yes, it would be registered.
17 496 Q. Yes. Whatever the name it was in, let us assume
18 your own personal account was in the name of Seamus
19 Purcell & Co., in Guinness & Mahon?
20 A. Yes.
21 497 Q. Mr. Purcell, did you cease having such an account in
22 Guinness & Mahon around about 1990?
23 A. I would say that ceased about 1985.
24 498 Q. A personal account?
25 A. That Seamus Purcell & Company.
26 499 Q. Yes. Why was that?
27 A. I never had a personal account in my life. I had
28 only a working account, that is all.
29 500 Q. Yes. We may be disagreeing about the meaning of
62
1 words?
2 A. Yes.
3 501 Q. You had an account on which you could draw cheques?
4 A. Yes, for Seamus Purcell & Company.
5 502 Q. When you would want a cheque for your own personal
6 use you would draw it on Seamus Purcell & Company's
7 account?
8 A. Account, yes.
11 504 Q. What I want to know is this account in
12 Guinness & Mahon, Seamus Purcell & Company's
13 account, did it continue to the 1990's or did it
14 finish?
15 A. No, it did not.
16 505 Q. It finished in 1985?
17 A. About 1985. When the Libyan business was over, on
18 that meat contract, because that was in
19 Seamus Purcell & Company's name.
20 506 Q. Yes?
21 A. When that was over, that was over in 1985, then that
22 ceased.
23 507 Q. Yes. That personal account may have ceased.
24 However, your companies had very considerable
25 dealings still with Guinness & Mahon thereafter?
26 A. Purcell Exports had.
27 508 Q. Purcell Exports?
28 A. Yes, yes.
29 509 Q. It was the company which you then owned,
63
1 Purcell Exports Ltd?
2 A. Yes, that is right, yes.
3 510 Q. That had considerable financial dealings?
5 511 Q. The money that Mr. Traynor said he was going to put
6 off-shore for you?
7 A. Yes.
8 512 Q. Would you agree that the documents appear to
9 clearly indicate that it was put off-shore in
10 the Cayman Islands?
11 A. That documents now tell me that.
12 513 Q. That is what you know now. However, you did not
13 know then?
14 A. No, they tell me now.
15 514 Q. Yes. Did you know that it was on deposit somewhere,
16 the money was on deposit somewhere?
17 A. As far as I was concerned the money was put out
18 there to pay commissions.
19 515 Q. Yes?
20 A. In an account.
21 516 Q. Yes?
22 A. And that was all because you could be calling for
23 that money three days after, four days after.
24 517 Q. Yes. However, it would have been on deposit, would
25 it not?
26 A. Well, I don't know what way -- what he did with it.
27 518 Q. Is it likely?
28 A. I know it was up to Mr. Traynor, whatever he wanted
29 to do with it.
64
1 519 Q. It was up to Mr. Traynor?
2 A. So whatever he...(INTERJECTION).
3 520 Q. You left it to Mr. Traynor?
5 521 Q. Would I be correct in saying that whatever it was,
6 if it did earn interest, it was not declared by you
7 in your own personal income tax?
8 A. I never had any benefit from that account.
9 522 Q. Yes?
10 A. Nothing. I benefited nothing from the account.
11 523 Q. The answer is, "No, it wasn't"?
12 A. No.
13 524 Q. I see. Just to come back to Purcell Exports Ltd's
14 account?
15 A. Yes.
16 525 Q. When did it cease to have an account with
18 A. About 1990 I would say.
19 526 Q. About 1990?
20 A. Yes. Maybe earlier. Maybe earlier, I am not sure.
21 527 Q. Yes?
22 A. But about that I would say.
23 528 Q. Did you make any reference to the off-shore account,
24 in the closing of the off-shore account, when you
25 were closing these other accounts?
26 A. I had nothing to do with the off-shore accounts. At
27 that stage I had nothing to do with the off-shore
28 account.
29 529 Q. Yes?
65
1 A. And I was never asked anything about the off-shore
2 account.
3 530 Q. Yes?
4 A. Or never told anything about the off-shore account.
5 531 Q. Yes. So...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. From Guinness & Mahon or from Mr. Traynor.
7 532 Q. However, you knew that he was going to open one some
8 place, you did not know where?
9 A. No.
10 533 Q. However, you did not specifically direct it was to
11 be closed, is that the position?
12 A. No, no. I did nothing at all about it.
13 534 Q. You did nothing about it?
14 A. Nothing at all with that account.
15 535 Q. Yes?
16 A. Good, bad or indifferent.
17 536 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I was told nothing about the account.
19 537 Q. Yes?
20 A. Good, bad or indifferent either, nothing at all
21 about it.
22 538 Q. Mr. Purcell, thank you for your attendance here
23 today. The evidence that you have given us will be
24 typed up into a transcript. We would ask you to
25 come in to sign it when it is available to you. We
26 will let your solicitor know when that is?
27 A. Fine.
28 MR. BARRY: I would say, if I may
29 Judge, that in some of the
66
1 questions, and I apologise for interrupting you on
2 occasion, I felt that some of Mr. Purcell's evidence
3 was summarized in a fashion that was not actually
4 accurate. I would not wish this transcript to
5 effect any approval of the summary but rather to
6 rely upon the original answers given. Forgive me
7 for interrupting you earlier.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. We will
9 adjourn now.
10
11 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
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Appendix XV (110) Mr Diarmuid Quirke, deceased
Diarmuid Quirke.
a) Unsworn statement of Joan Quirke dated 4 May 2000.
b) Cheque in favour of Diarmuid Quirke of 15 July 1991.
c) IIB statement of 31 July 1991 re Ansbacher Limited.
d) Letter of 8 January 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
e) Cheque in favour of Diarmuid Quirke of 8 January 1992.
f) Letter and attachment of 7 January 1992 - Mr Diarmuid Quirke to official

in charge of payment from Bluehill Investments.
g) Deposit dealing ticket no 113281.
h) Guinness and Mahon statement of 23 October 1986 re Amiens S/L.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Diarmuid Quirke.
a) Letter of 10 December 2001 - Mrs Joan Quirke to Inspectors.

UNSWORN STATEMENT OF JOAN QUIRKE
1 I make this statement pursuant to a request from the Office of the Inspectors
Appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited for an
unsworn statement. That request was made by letter in writing dated the 28 th
March, 2000.
2 My late husband, Diarmuid Quirke, died on the 21 81 September, 1994. He was

63 years of age at the time of his death. I beg to refer to a copy of his Death
Certificate which is attached to this unsworn statement and upon which I have
marked the letters and numbers "JQ1". I was the sole beneficiary under his
Will and I took out a Grant of Probate on the 8 t h February, 1995.1 beg to refer
to a copy of the Grant of Probate which is attached to this unsworn statement
and upon which I marked the letters and numbers "JQ2".
3 Throughout our married life I remained at home, and reared our four children
and generally looked after our home and family. My late husband was the one
who worked outside of the home and as a consequence, during all our married
life he looked after all ourfinancial affairs. I was generally aware of what he
earned and what investments he was making. As far as I am aware, he never
kept anything of significance from me. He was employed by CRH pic. He
was, to the best of my knowledge, an Executive Director between the years
1980 and 1991. He retired in 1991.
4 Thefirst time I ever became aware that my late husband might have had any
involvement with what has become known as the "Ansbacher Accounts" was
in September, 1999, when stories to that effect appeared in the media. At that
time I was very concerned as to the accuracy of those media reports because
my late husband never mentioned having been or being the beneficiary of an
Ansbacher account. I would like to add that my late husband knew he was
dying for approximately three months prior to his death and he had ensured his
affairs were in order. At no stage did he identify or bring to my attention any
such account or that he was the beneficiary of any such account. After reading
those accounts in the papers I went through what books and records I had at
home but I was unable tofind any mention of any "Ansbacher Account".
Indeed, when I was administrating my late.husbands estate no such bank
account ever came to light. I beg to refer to a copy of the Inland Revenue
Affidavit attached to this Unsworn Statement and upon which I have marked
the letters and numbers "JQ3". As I have stated, during my marriage to my
late husband I was generally aware of what our assets and liabilities were.
When I was administering my late husband's estate I was satisfied that there
were no bank accounts missing or unaccounted for and what assets I did
identify were what I expected to be in the estate.
Because of these media reports which both linked my husband to those
accounts and informed the public that Inspectors had been appointed, I felt I
should take legal advice. I had no idea how I could confirm the truth or
otherwise of what was stated in the papers and I wanted to know what if any
relevance there was for me in the appointment of the Inspectors. I would also
like to add that those media reports and the alleged association between those
accounts and my late husband was a matter of great upset and embarrassment
to me. I attended on Mr. Stephen Hamilton, Partner in A & L Goodbody,
solicitors who now have their offices at the International Financial Services
Centre, North Wall Quay, Dublin 1.1 believe that Ifirst attended on Mr.
Hamilton in relation to this matter on the 27th September, 1999.1 informed
him of my complete lack of knowledge of any such account and of my
inability to locate or identify any such account. Mr. Hamilton corresponded
with and/or spoke to various parties in an effort to shed further light on the
matter and in particular to Guinness & Mahon Bank, Irish Intercontinental
Bank and solicitors representing Patrick Collery, Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited and solicitors for CRH pic in an effort to identify any such account
and what involvement, if any, my late husband had with such an account. I beg
to refer to a booklet of that correspondence which is attached to the within
unsworn statement and upon which I marked the letters and numbers "JQ4".
The only documents which came to light as a result of the enquiries carried out
by A & L Goodbody on my behalf were two letters which I have pinned
together and attached to the within unsworn statement and upon which I have
marked "JQ5". The letter of 8th January, 1992, was produced to Goodbodys
by Guinness & Mahon. The letter of 7th January, 1992, was produced to Mr.
Hamilton at a meeting he had with solicitors acting for CRH pic. I am not sure
what relevance the letter and schedule dated the 7 January, 1992, has. As
appearsfrom that letter it is signed by my late husband. As further appears
from that letter it refers to a "second statement of sterling expenses for the
calendar year 1991.". I know that my husband during the course of his work
for CRH pic travelled extensively in the United Kingdom and I can only
assume that he drew down what expenses were due to him for such work and
travel at the end of 1991. The other letter is dated the 8 th January, 1992 and is a
request by a J.D. Traynor requesting travellers cheques in dollars.
The sums in thefirst mentioned letter appear to be modest and the letter
requesting payment of them quite clearly identifies the sums as expenses. In
relation to the dollar travellers cheques, to the best of my recollection, after my
late husbands retirement we went on an around the world trip and the dollar
travellers cheques were used on that holiday. While I cannot be certain of it, I
have some very vague recollection of my late husband saying that the
travellers cheques were derivedfrom business expenses.
In relation to the correspondence, I would like to make the following points;

(a) Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited confirmed that they have no record of an
account either at the date of the death of my late husband or at the date of
writing their letter ofthe 17th December, 1999.
(b) Guinness & Mahon confirmed by letter dated the 17th December, 1999 that
they had no other documentation other than the letter ofthe 8 th January,
1992 which they had already provided and a copy of which I have already
attached.
(c) Irish Intercontinental Bank were unable or unwilling to provide any

information.
(d) Padraig Collery was unable for the reasons stated in his solicitors letter to
provide any assistance.
9 Onefinal matter which may or may not be relevant to the Inspector's enquiry
is that when I discussed with my children the results of the enquiries
conducted on my behalf and the matters which the Inspectors required
assistance on, some of them recalled or thought that my late husband had a
Guinness & Mahon bank account and cheque book many years ago. Mr.
Hamilton contacted a Mr. Cathal MacCarthy in Guinness and Mahon who
confirmed by telephone on the 11th October, 1999, that at some time my late
husband did appear to have a bank account with Guinness & Mahon and that it
had only been a small non consequential account and he would let us have
further details. To date no details have been provided though, as appears from
the correspondence at "JQ4" above Guinness & Mahon confirmed by letter
dated the 17th December, 1999, that they had no other documentation other
than the letter of the 8 th January, 1992, relating to my late husband and the
various court orders the subject ofthe present inquiry.
10 There is nothing else which I can think of which might be of assistance. If I

remember anything else of relevance or obtain orfind any relevant documents
I will of course be in contact.
Dated: Hi ktu<
Signed:
Doonbeg,
Silchester Road,
Glenageary,
Co. Dublin.
N:\LITIGATE\WPYJT\JTST0201.05A
60-08-20
National Westminster Bank PLC <!» LStn July, ,.91.
Quernwy Branch
PO Box N o M . 35 HI (ft StrMt, St P»t«r Port. Quomaoy
p«y D.F." Quirke or order
TWo Thousand Eight Hundred and Seven :y-TWo P >unds £2,872.00

FOR AND ON HHALF OF •JJEMILL
INVESTMENT* LIMITED
CCA Auri-sic
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STATEMENT
RECONSTRUCTION IRISH INTERCONTINENTAL BANK LTD.
ANSBACHER LIMITED • 1 MERRION SQUARE
C/O CORPORATE SERVICES DUBLIN 2
Tafcphona: (01)>819744
T«IM: 33322
FaealmHa: (01)8788034
A/C 02/01087/81
GBP
DEP CL OEM NON RES STATEMENT DATE: 31-Jul-91
DATE DETAILS VALUE DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE

u. 1U. DATE
22Jul91 BALANCE FORWARD 11.205.875 87
RENEWAL DEPOSIT ON: 319866 22Jul91 44 94 11,205,920 81
FX OT640247 LODGEMENT 22Jut91 2,699.40 11,208,620.21
FX DT640248 LODGEMENT , 22JUI91 125.97 11.208.746 18
DT10B428 WITHDRAWAL 22JUI91 18.000 00 11.190,746 18
DT108084 LODGEMENT 22JUI91 52.15 11,190.798.33
DT1080S5 LODGEMENT 22Ju»1 44 26 11.190.842.59
FX DT64055S LODGEMENT 22JUI91 115.07 11.190.957.66
FX DT640556 LODGEMENT 22JUW1 153.27 11,191.110 93
23Jul91 DT tODGfccWbNT -r. 30Jun91 248,874 83 11,439,985 76
DTI08452 WITHDRAWAL 23Ju®1 3,000.00 11.436.985.76
DT1084S3 WITHDRAWAL 23JUI91 1,999.56 11.434.986 20
24JUI91 RENEWAL DEPOSIT ON: 999728 24Jul91 18.80 11.435.005 00
FX DT640564 WITHDRAWAL 24JulB1 162.80 11.434.842 20
25Jul91 DT10BSS8 TRANSFER T002/01062/81 25JuB1 155.00 11.434,687.20
DT108559 TRANSFER FROM 02/01062/81 2SJu»1 2.91666 11,437,603.86
FX DT640269 WITHDRAWAL 2SJul91 2.083.33 11.435.520.53
26Jut91 DT108182 LODGEMENT 25Ju»1 154.00 11,435,674 53
DT108575 TRANSFER TO 02/01062/81 26Ju»1 4,996.75 11,430.677 78
29JiK91 DT108195 LODGEMENT 2BJUI91 2,872.00 11.433,549 78
OVERDRAWN BALANCES ARE MARKED DR

r-; •
Please reply to: Lbnltefr
42 Fitzwilliam Square, P.O. Box 887, Onod Cayman, Cayn in Indies 1
Dublin 2.
Tel: 765144/763065 Telephone: (I 79)
Fax: 612035 Facrimik (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
8th January, 1992.

Guinness S Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection
U.S. Dollar Travellers Cheques as follows:
US$2,000 in $100 cheques in name of Mrs. Joan Quirke
US$2,000 in $100 cheques in name of Mr. Diarmuid Quirke
The address of Mr. and Mrs. Quirke is 'Doonbeg',
Silchester Road, Glenageary, Co. Dublin.
I would like to have these collected on Monday next, 13th
January, and I would arrange to let you have the signed
receipts back right away.
The cost should be debited to Ansbacher Limited re Poinciana
Fund No.2 Account No.08428030 and'I would be grateful you
could let me have a note of the amount debited when letting
me have the Travellers Cheques.
Yours sincerely,
.D. Travnor
u a 3®>o
m t/AJW
AMcia»cirTHXAjmMaaaiMn»unoNAi.rKjnaao(voro^
ALSO SiOCAyaaBMttfâBB iAItMM^jlWTjaHVBIOlW BUBS,
National Westminster Bank PLC A
Guernsey Branch
P O Box No56. 35 High StrMt, St P*t«r Port. GutrnMy
; £SL or order -
r in Q^l I
FOR AND ON BEHALF OF BLUEHILL
INVESTMENTS LI KITED
mAi
. ATFTH-SIQ
' AOTH-8IQ
••000 6o«osao«: vo&s&zai?

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Arthur Cox 23/05/00 16:32 PAGE 0 0 4 / 6 RightFAX
DEPOSIT DEALING TICKET

TraaauiyCopy DMIM vc 'l.I'/V
Cuatomw FIXED REPAY
\ \ V >\V
Contract No. 113281
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AUTHORISATION IS REQUIRED
NOSTRO IN—DEPOSIT
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Amount 5.0"l S - Q O "
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NOSTRO OUT—LOAN
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SttftDtfa VL.
Maturity Data
Wawdfcyou* A/C IntorMt Rats
SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS
FleKovr Oaf
Miw Amount
Brofcai 1UW Pbona Rautar
Principal & int.

OUT TO-COanTB hwUvdloiw At Maturity OUT TO (H raquM and not
Clanfs Maturity InstructoM known writ* N)
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MOSTRO Confirmation CaN ParCttaqua

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G+M GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
STATEMENT O f ACCOUNT WITH
I0,
BANKERS 17 College Green Dublin Z P.O.Box 55A. T«lephone:796944
o account AMIENS S/L
namc NO I ACCOUNT STA1EHEMT NO.
CUKKCNCV IRISH POUNOS PACE NO.
ACCOUNT NUMBER 1Q<%07014
otscmmoH RESIDENT CURRENT LEDGER
r% siMiMtMioo.it 230CT86
t
DATE PAMICUIARS VALUE OA1E cneon racamce
*>
16OCT06 ^BALANCE BROUGHT FORWARD 0.00
••1 200CT86 DRAWN 5,0Q0.0C I 5,000.00
21OCT06 LODCEO <il5.QC <>15.00 r
220CT8C OR AWN 10,000.OC
ORAWN 5,415.00 |ir
DRAWN 960.00 17,T60,00DR
Z30CTM LORAMN 1*136.36
OG 50,000.00 31,103.64
>'t
O
1K« mmi b*'><V« iNiwri so (hi* itlliminl ihovU b« *t'i|j«d
iidiht 8mi nocf>*t) ptenioilT of t/iicitoincy OVtnORAWN OALANCtS AM£ MAAKEO 00
Doonbeg,
Silchester Road,
Glenageary,
Co. Dublin.
10th December, 2001
Your Ref. C/QO/1NSPM
Re: Mr. Diarmuid Quirke - Deceased
Dear Sirs,
I am replying to your letter to me of 20th November, 2001.
Please note that my late husband's name is Diarmuid Quirke, not Dermot Quirke.
There are a number of points which I make in reply to your letter:
1. I understand that you accept that you are obliged to afford all fair procedures and
natural justice (together with the opportunity to reply) to those individuals against
whom allegations and inferences are made as a result of your investigation. The very
fact that my late husband himself is unable to reply to the inferences set out in your
Preliminary Conclusions is contrary to these principles of fair procedure and natural
justice. Indeed, based on the fragmentary evidence being put forward by your office, I
do not accept that there are sufficient grounds for you to reach the conclusions arrived
at. For the avoidance of doubt, these inferences are wholly rejected by me - both as
widow of my late husband and also as Executrix to his estate.
2. As currently drafted your Preliminary Conclusions have created unfavourable innuendo

against my late husband's reputation. I am prejudiced in my ability to provide a
comprehensive reply to these conclusions in circumstances where you have only
supplied me with a minor reference in your draft report and in circumstances where
there is insufficient information for me to comment on inferences made. As an
example of the lack of clarity in the documentation provided to me, what is meant by
the allegation that my late husband was "a client of Ansbacher"! Is there a definition
for this expression? Are you willing to provide me with all other sections of your
draft report to which these inferences (and accompanying documentation) relate?
3. With the exception of the letter from my late husband dated 7th January, 1992 (and I
will deal with that below), there is no documentation whatsoever linking him to
Ansbacher accounts. In addition, there is no evidence that, with the exception of this
letter, my late husband ever had sight of any ofthe other documents which you have
sent me. This is a -further example ofthe principles of fair procedure and natural justice
being compromised, the effect of which is to prejudice my late husband's position.
4. Dealing with the letter from my late husband dated 7th January, 1992. In paragraph 2
of page 2 of your Preliminary Conclusions, you state:-
"Ansbacher's service was used to facilitate the purchase of these travellers'

cheques and Mr. Quirke was familiar enough with how the system operated to
direct the incoming funds of Ms. Williams. "
To suggest that my husband was ''familiar enough with how the system operated',
you appear to be wholly reliant on his letter dated 7th January, 1992 where he stated:-
"/ would request that you forward your cheque to Ms. Joan Williams at 42
Fitzwilliam Square who will be authorised to deal with it on my behalf. "
To assume that my late husband's request that a cheque be forwarded to Ms. Joan
Williams makes him' familiar enough with how the system operated' does not bear
scrutiny. The document suggests that Ms. Williams was authorised to deal with the
matter but it certainly does not show that my late husband was familiar with the
workings of Ansbacher accounts. It is unfair to make such an assertion in
circumstances where it cannot be put to my late husband and we are deprived of
explanations which he might have offered as to the background to and the meaning of
the note in question.
5. At paragraph 3 in page 2 of your Preliminary Conclusions you refer to sterling

travellers' cheques of £1,324.59. However you have failed to provide me with any
documentation with regard to this amount. Please let me have a copy of the relevant
documents at your earliest convenience. You should be aware that whilst my late
re- husband retired from insert CRH pic in 1991, he remained Chairman of Irish Cement
Limited (a subsidiary of CRH pic) up until his death in September 1994, a position that
required significant overseas business travel.
6. For your information, I have been advised by CRH pic's solicitors that Bluehill
Investements Limited (a subsidiary of CRH pic which was based in Guernsey) was a
company set up for the purpose of assisting CRH pic in the financing of overseas
acquisitions. I am advised that this company was used to reimburse some expenses
incurred by those senior executives who spent time outside Ireland working on the
international development and monitoring of overseas acquisitions. The statement at
paragraph 5 on page 1 of your Preliminary Conclusions that:
"Bluehill Investments Ltd was a Guernsey company used by CRH for the
making of certain sterling payments to its executives. "
creates further unfavourable innuendo.

In short, there is no evidence that my late husband had any knowledge of or was conscious of
dealing with any Ansbacher account.
I look forward to hearingfrom you.
Yours faithfully,
Joan Quirke
The Office of the Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher
(Cayman) Limited,
3rd Floor,
Trident House
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
By Hand
STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL -

ADDRESSEE ONLY.
Appendix XV (111) Mr Jeremy Robson
Jeremy Robson.
a) Guinness and Mahon internal memo of 4 June 1986 - JD Traynor to P

Scully.
b) Telex of 17 December 1985 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
c) Ansbacher Limited statement of 24 October 1990 re sundry sub co a/c.
d) Telex of 16 January 1990 - Guinness and Mahon to Guinness Mahon

London.
e) Letter of 15 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Letter of 19 February 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
g) A/c statement print-out of 9 April 1997 - Ansbacher Cayman Limited call

deposit a/c.
h) A/c statement print-out of 9 April 1997 - Ansbacher Cayman Limited call

deposit a/c.
i) Letter of 17 October 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
j) Guinness and Mahon ledger statement of 26 March 1987 re

GMCT/Wentworth Trust.
k) Guinness and Mahon ledger statement of 30 June 1987 re

1) Guinness and Mahon copy statement of 30 December 1987 re

m) Guinness and Mahon copy statement of 29 December 1989 re Ansbacher

re Wentworth.
n) Guinness and Mahon ledger statement of 30 June 1987 re

o) Letter of 19 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
p) Letter of 8 February 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

•••••
J.D.T. to P. Scully. 4th June, 1986.
07066
Re: WENTWORTH TRUST
and
JEREMY ROBSON.
I would be grateful if you would please note to advise

John Furze by telefax any time you change currencies for
above. The funds are hypothecated to G.M.C.T. and
therefore I want them kept in the picture.
Although in order for you to do conversions the funds
must at all times remain with us.
JDT
c.c. D.P.C.
JDT/AJW
/Zc<
^ , ^ ^ ^ ^ v - Z c x - O b
TEST 1 5 / 1 1 1 4 HS Ur^/v
GUINNESS MAHON LTD VoVUPv l^"^
DUBLIN 2 IRELAND U U ^
DE MANTRUST NYK 1 2 / 1 7 / 8 5
TRAN 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 5 3 4 C p
/ ^ E D I T E D YOU 1 2 / 1 7 / 8 5 DLRS 6 5 > 5 ?6ME "DAY FUNDS SUBJECT TO
j.NAL SETTLEMENT YOUR REFERENCE CEIVED FROM I R V I N G TRUST
COf'.PANY NEW YORK NEW YORK V I A GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN
TRUST LTD. P. 0 . BOX S87 GRAND R I T I S H WEST I N D I E S . SR
eSI/BNF/ TELEX ADV GMD UPON RE£ J. D. TRAYNOR . OUR
REFERENCE 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 5 3 4 .
19:30*48 17DECS5 254 19:39:06 17DEC85
21:52:43 17DEC#S 2 6 9 2 4 21:52:49 17DEC85
2:.s 54 s 17 1X>EC35 09329 21:56:21 17DEC85

N..NN
S9c:r
30'i MAR:' EI
M H I M LIMITED
uuncimt limited
C/O M J D TVAYNOft
42 rrrzHiUiMt squahs M SUNDRY S i n CO X/C
DUBLIN 2
• M Copy ttatuant
n T t W U U . C A L L D/A
h l a m brought forward S2.774.41

1» OCT >0 BCCH MWMCHBI L I M I T S ) 171.3] ' 4],403.04
34 OCT >0 TUT U J B U M T R0BSOM 4,900.00 SS.703.01
24OCT90
S7
Jl8&4035+
A9k&35 GUI MAN G#
/ 884035 GUIMAN G
/ 93667 MARS EI
160190 16.47
tor* Guinness Mahon A Co., London

from: Guinness & Mahon Ltd., Dublin
date: 16.1.90. •
test: 49 1100
Attn Brenda Bartlett
Value 19.1.90 please debit our a/c with Stg £2,000.00.
Please have cash available at your counters for collection, by Mr
Jeremy Robson. I understand that Jeremy is knoun to you. Therefor
ue have made no arrangements re identification purposes.
Many thanks once again for your assistance. If you have any
queries, do not hesitate to contact me
regards
Una
Guinness A Mahon Ltd., Dublini
884035 GUINAN G
93667 MARS EI
MESSAGE: 293
TO s 051864035+
TRANSMISSION SUCCESSFUL
Please reply to:
«
P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Phone: <809) 949-4653/4
Dublin 2. Telex: CP 4305
Fax: (809) 949-7946
Tel: 765144/763065 (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035
15th January, 1990

M. Lanigan O'Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Martin,
Cbuld you please ask somebody to make arrangements with Guinness Mahon &
Co. London, so that Jeremy Robson may call in on Friday morning next,
19th January, and collect Stg.£2,000 in cash.
The arrangements are usually made through Brenda Bartlett in Guinness
Mahon & Co. and Jeremy is known to her.
Perhaps you could let Joan know when the arrangement is set up so that
she may confirm to Jeremy. He is expecting a 'phone call Wednesday a
The debit should go to Ansbacher Account No. 13154602.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor
/AJW
Appendix XV (111) (l)(f)
limited
A Member of the Henry Ansbacher HolMim-PLC AWHc/wnf Banking Croup
/ ••• •
f~'\ Dl„ao» Mnlv P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, British West Indies
riease reply TO. Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. (809) 949-7946
Tel: 765144/763065 (809,949-5267
Fax: 612035
19th February, 1990,

M. Lanigan-O'Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
17 College Green,
Dublin 2.
Dear Martin,
Could you please have someone make the necessary arrangements
with Guinness Mahon & Co. in London so that Mr. Jeremy C.
Robson may call in on Thursday of this week, 22nd February,
to collect Stg.£4,000 In cash. The debit should be to
Ansbacher Account No.13154297.
Jeremy has called in to London office on previous occasions
and is known to various members of staff there. He is
usually told to ask for Brenda Bartlett and to bring some
form of identification with' him.
—^ Perhaps you could ask whoever makes the arrangement with
^ Guinness Mahon & Co. to give me a ring when everything has been
set in place so that I may advise Jeremy that he should go
ahead and call.
JDT/AJW
|
P r i n t Key Output
5763SS1 V3R1HO 940<XW 1
S44Q1354 09/(14/97
Display Device OPSOISI
User SHELLS
Account Statement 9/04/97 13:17:26
Account! 13151)602 GBP ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) L CALL DEPOSIT
Statement start Date 01JAN87
SeX Value Narrative Poet Amount Balance
18JAN90 DEPOSIT ON ANSBACHER LIMI 135.012.59DR
EXCH ANSBACHER LIMITED 925.00DR
DEJOSIT OFF ANSBACHER LIM 13S.094.64CR 16.478.460.85CR
19JAN90 P1D CREDIT SUISSE 10 000.00DR
DRAWN J ROBSON 2 000.00DR
TRNF FROM 09250050-RE
VENTUOETH 2.000.00CR 16,448,460.85CR
22JAN90 TRFS TO TWINLAKES (JERSY) 2.000.00DR 16,446,460.BSCR
23JAN90 DRAFT IFO FLIGHT
TRAINING INC UK LTD S.OOO.OODR
EXCH ANSBACHER LIMITED S.OOO.OODR
EXCH ANSBACHER LIMITED 3.076.92DR
TRNF FROM 13154297 39.28CR
INTEREST 16.m.a3CR 16.449.89S.06C +
Cad 1 - Exit,
5763SS1 VIRtMO ^ o S 1 " ** ° U t , " t S44013J4
Display Device : OPSOISI
U s e r SHELLS
Account, u u u o z GBP ANslXSiraSS} L CALL DEPOSIT n , 1 < " 1 0
Statement start Date 01JAN87
fMfSg!^™
LETTER 130390 1*2 33CR
TSF EX 1315429? PER "
LETTER 130390 <70 gSCR
1CMAR90K P 0 S 1 T 0 F y UM 527aICE 1S.5U.261.89CR
iwwrau 200 5,000. OOOR
CHGS if0 ,„„
A/l/Qn 3.000.00DR
A.UUI.WUK
CMOS RE J iOBSON 220290 uiowit
JJVpSAL s u m 060290 9M 29CR
2»*R90 ^ U.feS
Ond 1 - Exit
Appendix XV (111) (1) (i)
Ansbacher limited
PLC Merchant Banking Group
Grand Cayman, British Wot India

< f-.: Please reply to! Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam ^qua Telex: CP 4305
Fun (809) 949-7946
Dublin 1 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/76!
Fax: 612035
17th October, 1990.
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David, /
Could you please have someone make the necessary arrangement
with Guinness Mahon & CJB. in London so that Mr. Jeremy Robs
may call there on Thursday of next week, 25th October, to
collect Stg.£6,900 ia/cash. The cost should be debited
Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154297.
Mr. Robson has called to Guinness Mahon & Co. on several
occasions but I snail of course ask him to bring some form
identification with him.
If there is any problem, perhaps you would let me know.
Yours sincenely, ^
f ' * ^
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (111) (l)(j)
Appendix XV (111) (1) (k)
OUIVKEM H n C&YMRB T R U S T / HEVTIiaHTB T B U 8 T
nninas moon ctnu trust / wamtoRTH trust
c/o D.r.c.
Copy 8t a t M o n t
CALL DCMIT
B t l M M brought forward
17 O L T ( 7 EtCH CMCT/HlRMRTll TRUST
104.16 0.00
>4 J L T > 7 n o OHCT/«BnilORTH TRDBT
4«,109.H
io 87 exck wcr/ramorni trust
URHUKT
Appendix XV (111) (1) (m)
H u n a m u wsmwcami
AJfSBACHBJt U XKWnmtTU
C/O Ml J D TUOMlIt
43 FITWILLIA* 9QOAU
DUBLIN 2
' Copy fltafeMMnt
1ST O U D/H
Balaam brought forward },)».»

34 M » »> T»H TO MMMfHTO 1,000.00 f.III.SI
It D*C •> CUR DIMM U K 3,000.00
39 DtC 19 Int. kppliad TO J10KC89
4.595.77
Appendix XV (111) (l)(n)
t%
ii mited
A Member of the Henry Ansba< hel •in l Group
Please reply to:

P.O. E >x 887. Grand Cayman, British We t Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Ptinmi (8M) 049 4653/4
Dublin 2. Telex: CP 4305
Fax: (809) 949-7946
Tel: 765144/763065 (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035
19th January 1990

1
M. Lanigan-0 Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness &raahonLimited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Martin,
Could you please arrange to debit our Amount re Wentworth
Amount No. 09250050 and wredit our Amount No.1 3154602 with
£2,000.00.
Yours sincerely,
J. D. Traynor.
ti
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (111) (l)(p)
Ansbacher Limited
A Member of' rhe Henry Ansbacher Holding$ PLC Merchant Banking Croup
P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. British West Indies

Please reply to: Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Fax: (809) 949-7946
(809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
8th February, 1990.
M. Lanigan-O'Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
17 College Green,
Dublin 2.
Re; Wentworth Trust

Dear Martin,
There is a Fixed Deposit in the above name maturing on the
12th February in the sum of £49,926.85. . „ /Ct)
f* *
At maturity could you please arrange to transfer this balance
to Ansbacher Sundry Sub-Company Account No.13154297 and let
me have confirmation in due course.
Yours sincerely,
c—
J.D. Traynor.
I*
J
JDT/AJW

Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 10

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Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 10

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Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

© Government of Ireland 2002

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Maurice Neligan dated 10 February 2000.

b) Transcript of evidence of Dr Patricia Neligan dated 11 February 2000.

c) Letter of 12 September 1986 - Guinness and Mahon to Maurice & Patricia

e) Guinness and Mahon statement of 11 December 1986 re Patricia Neligan.

f) Guinness and Mahon statement of 20 November 1986 re GMCT/College.

g) Copy statement - Ansbacher Limited/College of 18 April 1989.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Maurice Neligan.

a) Letter of 10 December 2001 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

b) Letter of 21 December 2001 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

c) Letter of 7 January 2002 - Lavery Kirby Gilmartin Solicitors to

ON THURSDAY, 10TH FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. MAURICE NELIGAN

Represented by: Mr. John Lavery

Lavery Kirby & Co

WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTIONS

MR. MAURICE NELIGAN MR. ROWAN 1-71

MS. MACKEY 72 - 122

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 123 - 155

2 10TH FEBRUARY 2 000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will start our

6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on

7 my left is Mr. Rowan, and we were appointed, as you

8 know, by the High Court as Inspectors. Ms. Cummins

9 is our solicitor and she will administer the oath

12 MR. MAURICE NELIGAN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

13 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. ROWAN

15 1 Q. MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Neligan.

17 2 Q. Mr. Neligan, we wrote to you inviting you to come

18 for this interview and we suggested it might be

19 helpful if you were able to provide us with a

20 statement and supporting documents.

22 3 Q. You have not done so?

23 A. No. I did not receive your letter until early

24 January, and I then got on to Mr. Lavery and my

25 accountants, Woods & Co., to prepare the relevant

26 statements and get them back to you. I also rang

27 here to explain that I had done this and I was told

28 to bring it along, if necessary, and to try to get

29 it in beforehand if I could. Now, one of the

2 have had some difficulty in getting all the relevant

3 information from the bank. Originally, I gave a

4 letter of authority to Mr. Woods way back in

5 September, or thereabouts, to get all relevant

6 documents from the bank, and a similar letter to

7 Mr. Lavery more recently. Even to this day, we have

8 not got everything that they feel they need to

9 answer absolutely everything that you have asked me.

10 I am sorry for that, but it has not been for want of

13 A. This is really -- I might hand it over to you --

14 (Documents handed over) there is a preamble and then

15 the supporting documents. Mr. Lavery assures me

16 everything we have at present is there.