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UNITED STATES SENATE

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Select Committee on Ethics
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Washington, D.C.
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IN RE: ENSIGN INQUIRY
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CONFIDENTIAL DEPOSITION OF
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Thursday, April 21, 2011

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Hart Senate Office Building
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Suite 220
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REPORTED BY:
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IM-SSCE0001228
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Deposition of

called for further

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examination pursuant to notice of deposition, on
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Thursday, April 21, 2011, in Washington, DC, at the
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Senate Select Committee on Ethics, Hart Senate
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Office Building, Suite 220, at 10:02 a.m., before
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a Notary Public within and for the
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District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of

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the respective parties:

9
ESQ.
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ESQ.
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ESQ.
12

ESQ.
13

United States Senate Select

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Committee on Ethics
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220 Hart Senate Office Building

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Washington, DC 20510
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202-224-298
1
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IMMIN
@ethics . senate. gov
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIpethics.sena
te.gov
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alliEl
@ethics . senate . gov
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIkethics.sena
te.gov
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On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee

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-- continued --
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NIM-SSCE0001229
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APPEARANCES (Continued):
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ESQ.
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K&L Gates
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1601 K Street, NW
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Washington, DC 20006-1600
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202-
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIkklgates.c
om
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On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee

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11

ESQ.
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DLA Piper US LLP

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500 8th Street, NW

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Washington, DC 20004
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202-
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@dlapiper.com
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On behalf of Witness
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1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 3 0
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
: Thanks for returning. So
3
this is a continuation of the deposition that we had
4
last year. As we told you then, we hoped that we
5
wouldn't have to bring you back, but we knew we'd be
6
getting a lot more documents.
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THE WITNESS: Sure.
8
Unfortunately we have some
9
that we need to go over with you. Being a
10
continuation of that deposition, all the same rules
11
and laws apply. In particular, this is a sworn
12
deposition. We will swear you in again even though
13
it's a continuation. And so the penalties of
14
perjury apply, obstruction of Congress and making
15
false statements. All of those laws still apply in
16
full force.
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THE WITNESS: Okay.
18
Whereupon,
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20
was called as a witness and, having first been duly
21
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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EXAMINATION (Continued)
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BY
24
Q
Do you understand the rules of perjury,
25
obstruction of Congress and making false statements
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-SSCE0001231
1
apply to this matter?
2
A
I do.
3
Q
Again, as with last time, if you or your
4
counsel wish to come in and review the transcript
5
afterwards, just let us know. It's usually a day or
6
two before it's ready.
7
A
Got it.
8
Q
Okay. And let's just get up to speed with
9
you.
10
A
11
12
A III
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14
15
16
A
17
Okay. All right. So let's
18
get to the heart of the matter, then, unless you all
19
have any questions before we start.
20
: No.
21
BY
22
Q
Last time we were together, you had
23
discussed some conversations that you had both on
24
the 16th and 17th of June 2009 and also around the
25
time of The New York Times article in October of
26
280
1
2009. You had some conversations with Senator
2
Ensign,
3
A Uh-huh.
4 Q
We asked for the substance of some of
5
those.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
A Okay.
20
Q
But we're going to focus today entirely on
21
those two time periods*.
22
A
Okay.
23
Q
June 16/17, possibly 18 of 2009 and then
24
September/October of 2009, okay?
25
A
Great.
26
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-SSCE0001233
1
Q
And maybe some related questions about
2
things that have happened since.
3
A
Sure.
4
Q
All right? So why don't we start right
5
off by going back to the public disclosure. Before
6
we start getting into the documents, what I would
7
like to do is ask for your recollection before we
8
review these documents about any conversations that
9
you had with the Senator

on June 16,
10
2009 or soon thereafter, within the following few
11
days. And why don't you start by sharing that with
12
us.
13
A
The day of the announcement, which is the
14
16th, correct -- or no, that was -- 16th was when he
15
told us. 17th is when he actually made the
16
announcement; is that correct?
17
I believe the evening -- the record
18
suggests that the evening of the 15th, that was the
19
late night that the C Street meeting happened.
20
A
Got it, okay.
21
Q
And then on June 16, he had a press
22
conference.
23
: That would have been the
24
evening of the 15th, morning of the 16th, because it
25
was really --
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IM-SSCE0001234
1

: Exactly. And we have a

2
calendar here if you need to check anything.
3

THE WITNESS: Okay. So let's see, so then

4
the 16th when he made the actual announcement, he
5
was on a plane in the morning and that was, I
6
think -- he wrote the statement that he was going to
7
give at the podium. And that's when
at the time, put it on -- transcribed it
9
onto e-mail and sent it out to us. And I think -- I
10
can't remember who was on the e-mail, but I know
11
that
got
hands on the e-mail. I'm
12
assuming it was from
13
So as I remember it, he -- let's see.
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Right before he was about to go up to the podium,
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-SSCE0001235
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Q

Let me ask a couple of questions about

that conversation.
A
Sure.
Q
A
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1111.11-SSCE0001236
1
Q
And you believe this was right before he
2
went up to the podium?
3
A
I do, yes.
4 Q
I'm going to proffer to you just to see if
5
it refreshes your recollection, and my colleagues
6
will tell me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is
7
that we have a copy of the teleprompter version
8

of a teleprompter version of the statement that does

9

not have any reference in it.

10

Would it have been in time to change that

11

version as well?
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A
13
14
15
16
17
18

And did he say why he wanted to talk about

19
it?
20

A
He said he thought

was important to get

21
it all out. He wanted to get all the information
22
out.
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Q Okay.
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A
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all-SSCE0001237
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2
3
A
I don't remember. I don't remember.
4 Q
Okay. All right. So what do you recall
is the next conversation about this issue?
6
7
A
The next conversation about it. Well, it
8
would probably be now that he had given a statement
9
and not said it, I know that at some point, we
10
huddled to say, okay, we still have this issue of
11
this information. What are we going to do with it?
12
But I don't remember at what point it came
13
up again. I mean, it was obviously, you know, that
14
day. But at that point, it was only a small group
15
of people that knew about it, so I wasn't dealing
16
with any press questions on it.
17 Q
All right. Why don't we just go to the
18
documents at this point, then.
19
A
Sure.
20 Q
See if they refresh your recollection.
21
I'm going to start with an exhibit.
22
We're going to continue the numbering of
23
the exhibits, I think we're on 19; is that right?
24
(Exhibits II[19A and111119B identified.)
25
BY
26
SSCE0001238
1 Q
This is a two-page exhibit, 19A and B. It
2
bears a Bates stamp of 43143, for the record. The
3
first page is the full page, but it's printed very
4
small. So the second page is just an enlargement of
5
that text.
6
Copy for counsel. Just let us know when
7
you've reviewed that. You might want to read it on
8
the next page, unless you've got phenomenal eyes.
9
(Witness reviewed the document.)
10
A Okay.
11 Q
Do you recall this e-mail?
12
A I do.
13 Q
Have you seen this e-mail since that time?
14
A
When I -- yes.
15 Q
Okay. Have you seen it recently?
16
A
Not recently.
17 Q
Okay. Other than if it was with your own
18
counsel, when was the last time that you saw this?
19
A
It wasn't other than with my own counsel.
20 Q
All right. That's fine. So in this --
21
: Just to be clear, it
22
wouldn't have been since the last time we were here;
23
right?
24
THE WITNESS: No, no.
25

So it's been a year.

26
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SSCE0001239
BY
THE WITNESS: Right.
2
3
4
5
6

A Yes.
7

And did you have any further discussions

surrounding this e-mail with anybody else?
9
A
Regarding this e-mail, no.
10 Q
Do you believe that you sent this to
11
anyone?
12
A
I don't remember.
13 Q
That's fine.
14
A
Yeah, I don't remember.
15 Q
Okay.
16
17
A
Regarding the potential criminal issues?
18 Q
Correct.
19
A No.
20 Q
Okay.
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111M-SSCE0001240
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2
3
4
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: Do you know what MIN
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meant?
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THE WITNESS: No. I mean, I guess -- I'm
11
not even going to speculate. I don't know.
12
BY
13 Q
So you don't have any -- did you discuss
14
with
what III meant?
15
A No.
16
Q
Okay. And when
wrote that
17
parenthetical --
18
19
20
Yeah,
21
thank you.
22
THE WITNESS: I don't. Yeah, I don't.
23
BY
24 Q
When MI wrote that parenthetical -- first
25
of all, do you recall if you read this e-mail when
26
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-SSCE0001241
1
it was sent to you?
2
A
If Senator Ensign read the e-mail?
3 Q
If you read the e-mail.
4
A Do I --
5
6
7
A
Yeah, yeah. No, I read it, yeah.
8 Q
Do you know if Senator Ensign read it?
9

A
I don't know.
10
11
12 Q
Okay.
13
14
A
15 Q
Okay. All right.
16
A Uh-huh.
17 Q
And did you understand

to mean all the

paragraphs of this or any particular paragraph?
A
I don't know.
Okay. So I just want to ask you about the
parenthetical in that last sentence,
A
I'm sorry, restate that question.
290
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-SSCE0001242
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Did you -- if you read that parenthetical
again,
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Q Okay.
14
A
15
16
Q
But did it
if you recall now, do you
17
recall thinking at the time that it was different
18
from or inconsistent with the Senator's original
19
written statement?
20
A
I think I remember thinking it was a
21

different way to put it.

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SSCE0001243
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A
292
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A
I think that we had very quickly gone over
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a timeline. I don't think at that point I was
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thinking of the timeline for the two.
16
Q
Okay. That's fair. And so, once again,
17
does this refresh your recollection, did you have
18
any further discussion --
19
20
21
A
Correct, correct.
22 Q
Other than that, did you have any further
23
discussions of this e-mail with anybody else?
24
A No.
25
Q
Okay. That's fine.
26
-SSCE0001244
: Okay. Thank you.
BY
I'm going to move on to an exhibit -- why
293
1

just to follow up.

2
BY
3
4
5
6
7
8

A
As I remember it, yes.
9

Do you know if he had seen this e-mail or

10

something similar? Did he tell you that?

11
A
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
don't you hold on to those, put them in front of
24
you, because we might compare exhibits at some
25
point.
26
MIN-SSCE0001245
Okay.
1
I'm going to hand you an exhibit I'm going
2
to mark III-20A and B. It's a two-page document. It
3
bears a document ID number of 507216.
4
(Exhibits 11120A and 11.1 20B identified.)
5
(Witness reviewed the document.)
6
BY
7 Q
It's a two e-mail chain, first from you to
8
a number of people. I'm going to refer loosely to
9
them as the core group, and I know it changes over
10
time.
11
And then from
back to you and
12
the core -- a core group.
13
Do you recall this e-mail?
14
A Yes.
15 Q
Have you seen it since our last
16
deposition?
17
A No.
18
19
20
21
22
A Yes.
23 Q
Does that appear to be correct?
24
A Yes.
25
26
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IIMISSCE0001246
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2
A
Well, we -- let me see if I can remember
3
the timeline here.
4
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 Q
Okay. So in other words --
17
A
18
19
20
21
22
A
23
24 Q
Okay. And --
25
A
And, you know, this group. But --
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1 Q
So I mean a larger group within the
2
office.
3
A
5
6
7
Right.
Okay. And -- okay.
A
Of this e-mail, I do not.
9
10
11
12
13
A
No, I don't. I don't remember.
14
15
16
17

A No.
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20
21
22
A
I did not, no.
23
(Exhibit 11121 identified.)
24
BY
25
Q
Okay. I'll show you Exhibit 21. It's a
26
SSCE000I 248
296
A
That's right.
So that could have been 2:00 p.m. Las
one-page document bearing a document ID 43981.
2
(Witness reviewed the document.)
3
I'd also like you to compare the time
4

stamps between this document and the previous one,

5
in terms of your e-mails.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
Vegas time?
15
A
Right.
16 Q
Is it your recollection that the press
17
conference happened around 3:00, 3:30 Vegas time?
18
A
19
20 Q
So this Exhibit 21 is about 15 minutes
21
later,
22
23
24
25
Right?
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A Right.
Just the wire statement.
A
Right, exactly.
So now, does this refer to the
A
This is what he read at the podium, right.
Okay.
1
A Right.
Q
Okay. So in the first one, Exhibit 20,
3 you say
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14

Yes.
15

And what were the responses that you got

16

to that?
17

I do not remember.
18

Okay.
19
A

Unless I've got them -- it would have been

20
on e-mail, so --
21
Q
Well, were you in an office with
22
at this time?
23
A
24
25
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11.1.11-SSCE0001250
1
2
3
4
5

6
AVaguely.
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8
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10
11
12
13
14

15
A
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300
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A
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BY
If you go back to the time stamp on the
12
original Exhibit 19, it looks like that was about
13
3:30 possibly local time?
14
A
Yes, so that was much earlier.
15
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20
A
21
22
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24
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-SSCE0001252
1 Q
Let me ask one other question about this
2
Exhibit 21. If you notice, the only person who this
3
is directed to, as opposed to cc, is the Senator
himself; is that correct?
5
A Right.
6
Q
And so do you know if the Senator
responded to this?
8
A
I don't remember.
9
lo
11
12
13
A
No, I don't.
14
: Let's move to Exhibit 22.
15
It's a one-page document, document ID number 43987.
16
(Exhibit 111-22 identified.)
17
(Witness reviewed the document.)
18
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
19
BY
20 Q
This is about 13 minutes after the e-mail
21
in Exhibit 21.
22
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24
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1 1 1 1 1 1 1 S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 3
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A I don't.
3
Q
Okay. Do you recall -7- this is from you
4
to the Senator; is that correct?
5
A Yes.
6
7
8
A Right.
9 Q
10
11
A
12
13 Q
All right. So do you have any reason to
14
believe that it was anything other than taking that
15
line out?
16

A
I don't have any reason to believe that
17

it's --
18
19
20
21
Right, thank' you.
22
23
24
25
A
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1 .1 .1 1 -S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 4
1
2

Does it refresh your recollection about

3
another phone call with the Senator?
4
A
Not at all, no.
5 Q
Since you don't recall the phone call, I
6 won't ask --
7
A
Yeah, sorry about that.
8
9
10
So let's move on to 23.
11
(Exhibit III-23 identified.)
12
BY
13
Q
23 is another one-page document bearing an
14
ID of 44156. As
always does, I apologize for
15
throwing these at you.
16
And you know what, that reminds me, I
17
forgot to put on the record who among us is in the
18
room. You've met me and chief counsel and staff
19
director
my colleagues
and
20
and
is with the special
21
counsel in this matter from K&L Gates.
22
Good morning.
23
THE WITNESS: Good morning.
24
BY
25
Q
All right. So now we're on 23. This
26
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 5
3 0 4

1
appears to be several hours later, after the public

2
announcement. Is that -- is that correct?

3
A
Yeah, it looks like it.

4 Q
Do you recall this e-mail?

5
A No, I don't.

6 Q
You don't recall ever seeing it?

7
A
In the flurry of e-mails, no.
8

9
So

10
this is -- yeah, I don't remember any of this stuff.

11 Q
Okay. In particular, obviously, as you

12
might have guessed, I want you to focus on the

13
second -- third sentence.
14
15
16

A Uh -huh.
17
18
19
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21
22
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-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 6
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2
3 A
Everybody was digging into i
4
5
A
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 A I think so.
17 Q
All right. And -- but in exhibit
18
Exhibit 20, on the second page --
19
: Which one is 20?
20
: 507216.
21
: These don't have Bates
22
stamps on them.
23
: 20 does.
24
: Oh, does. Mine
25
don't. All right. Which one is --
26
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..1 1 -S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 7
1

THE WITNESS: It's that e-mail, the

2 timeline.
3

: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4

BY
5 Q
Is it your understanding that at that
6
point, that was the only background that you all
7
were going to give out?
8
A
To the wire reporter, yes.
9 Q
But that doesn't preclude giving out more
10
background?
11
A
Exactly. I think that we dealt with the
12
wire reporter with this, and then I think it was
13
probably a whole new ballgame after he gave his
14
podium statement, televised statement.
15 Q
Okay. So back to --
16
A
This e-mail?
17 Q
-- this e-mail, what are we on, 23.
18
19
20
21
22
A
I -- I can't draw that conclusion from
23 this.
24
25
26
ME-SSCE0001258
1

2 Q
That's really why I'm going through these

3
e-mails with you.

4 A Sure.

5 Q
To kind of refresh your recollection of

6
just how much of an issue it was at the time, to see

7
if that helps you recall any further conversations

8
about that issue.

9 A Right.

10 Q
It seems to us, particularly from these

11
e-mails, that there was a lot of questions about it.

12
So we would imagine that there were a lot of

13
discussions about it.

14 A Right.
15
16
17
18
19
20
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22
23
24
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-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 5 9
A Right, right.
Okay.
A I don't.
Okay.
A
And this looks like it's at about 7:00?
9:00, I think.
A 9:00?
9:55, 10:00.
A
Yeah. I was -- yeah.

You did not go to bed that night?

A
1
2
3
4
5
6 Q
And just to be clear, this wasn't to a
7
large group;
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
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1
2
3
Q Let's move on.
4
(Exhibit-24 identified.)
BY
6 Q
so Exhibit 24 is a one-page exhibit. It
7
has a Bates stamp of 43140, and that Bates stamp is
8
cut off on our copies, but it is marked on the
9
exhibit. It's a July 16 e-mail from

to
10
You are actually not on this e-mail.
11
A
Now that I'm remembering the timeline, the
12
night before we had gone over at 11:00 at night and
13
stayed there until 4:00 a.m., so I probably was in
14
bed at 9:00 that night, now that I think about it.
15 Q
Could be. Or 10:00.
16
A Okay. Sorry.
17
(Witness reviewed the document.)
18 Q
We'll note for the record that you're not
19
on this e-mail, but I do want to ask a couple of
20
questions to see if you are aware of it or the
21
inquiry in general.
22
I also note, it appears to be dated July
23
16, 9:52 a.m. However, the e-mail from
24
begins with "on June 17, The New York Times wrote."
25
So, you know, I'm not sure if
26
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-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 61
1
had a typo. And it also appears to quote an article
2
that we found to have been published on June 18. I
3
don't want to represent to you --
: It's July, July 16.
5
BY
6 Q
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
7
When was the article?
8
The article is June 18.
9
The article is the next exhibit, I'll give you that
10
now if you'd like it now.
11
: When was that published?
12
June. June 18. This one I
13
did get --
14
: So the typo is, you're
15
saying --
16
THE WITNESS: The 17th?
17
BY
18 Q
Yeah, that could be the typo. It's a
19
really -- let me give you the article now, Exhibit
20
25A and B. It's a two-page exhibit. It's The
21
New York Times article from June 18.
22
(Exhibits II 25A and II 25B identified.)
23
BY
24
Q
They might have had a version on the 17th,
25
for all I know. Let's see, the quote

referring
26
310
S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 62
1
to is the fourth full paragraph on the second page.
2
Feel free to read it all.
3
(Witness reviewed the document.)
4
Timeline is a little messed up from my
5
date of the error on the
e-mail. Let me
6
start with Exhibit 25. Do you recall that article?
7 A Yes.
8 Q
What do you recall about it?
9 A
I guess reading it. Is there --
10 Q
Did you -- did you or do you know of
11
anybody who talked to The New York Times before the
12
article came out?
13 A
No, I don't know.
14
15
16
A
17
18
19
20
Q
Well, let me focus on that line. It's the
21
fourth full paragraph on the second page. It's the
22 line that
quotes a month later. "A person
23
close to Mr. Ensign's family who spoke only on
24
condition of anonymity said the Senator had
25
confessed the affair to his wife many months ago and
26
311
1 .1 .1 1 -S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 63
1
upon reconciling with her and attending counseling

2
dismissed Ms. Hampton from his political team with a

3
severance that he paid from his own pocket."

4
Do you recall that quote when this article

5 came out?

6
A No.

7 Q
Do you have any -- do you know who that

8 source is?

9
A Not at all.

10 Q
Do you have any reason
any educated

11
guess about who that source is?

12
A
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A Yeah.
23
24
25
26
312
EMI-SSCE0001264
1 A
I don't know of anyone -- I certainly have

2 not. I don't know anyone who has.

3 Q
Have you ever heard that discussed as a

way to go?

5 A No.

Q
And do you recall whether you or anybody

7
made any inquiries as to who that source was after
this article came out?

9 A
I did not, and I don't remember

10
discussions about who it could have been.

11 Q
Okay.
1 2
1 3
1 4
1 5
16

17 A
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Q
I'm going to -- I'm going to show you
26
313
1 1 1 .1 1 -S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 65
314
1
again from the -- from last year, on the first day
2
of this deposition, Exhibit
It's 3A, B and C,
3
three pages. I'm going to ask you to focus on 3C,
4
which appears to be --
5

: A, B, C?
6

: Yeah, first page is A,

7

second is B, third is C.
8

BY
9

So 1111-3C appears to be the first iteration

10
of the statement.
11
12
13
(Witness reviewed the document.)
14
THE WITNESS:
15
16
BY
17 Q
So do you recall that now?
18
A
19 Q
Yes.
20 A Yes.
21 Q
So again, let me come back to The New York
22
Times article and that line.
23
24
25
26
1 1 .1 1 1 -S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 66
1
2
3
4
A
315
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17 A Not at all, yeah.
18
Q Okay.
19
20
21 A Yes.
22 Q
Do you know if that background was given
23
out by your office?
24 A
25
26
IMS S C E 0 0 0 1 2 67
1
2
3
4
5
6

7
: That's much later, though.

8
THE WITNESS: Okay. That was much later.
9
10
11
12
13

14
BY

15 Q
Let me go off timeline a little bit and go

16
to Exhibit 24. And again, this was my error to put

17
it in the timeline here, but I think we can just get

18
rid of it.

19
When was it that you came back to the

20 office again?

21 A Say that again.

22
23
24

25 A Exactly.
26
3 1 6
1 =-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 68
1

I don't remember.
2 Q
Okay. I think you testified late July
3 last year.
4
A Okay.
5 Q
so
let's just deal with 24. Very quickly.
6
Do you recall ever discussing this inquiry of
7
8 A
I don't remember specifically this one,
9 no.
10
11
12 A
I did, but it wasn't a lot.
13
Q Okay.
14
15
16
A
I don't remember specific conversations or
17 inquiries.
18 Q
All right. Let me -- let me get back on
19
the timeline here. We'll go to Exhibit 26.
20
(Exhibit 11126 identified.)
21
: This is a two-page exhibit
22
bearing a document ID number of 507351.
23
: 507351?
24
: Yes.
25
BY
26
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 69
3 1 7
A Uh -huh.
1 Q
Now we're back to June 17.
2
(Witness reviewed the document.)
3
Do you recall these e-mails?
4
A
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Q
Do you recall where these questions were
13 from?
14 A
I don't remember specifically if they were
15
questions that all of us had kind of discussed and I
16
was trying to put them into one spot or if they were
17
reporter questions. I don't remember.
18 Q
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
318
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 70
319
1

I don't remember.
2
3
4
5 Q
By the second day --
6
A Yeah.
7 Q
-- they were excluding -- okay.
8
Do you recall whether there was a
9
resolution to the questions that you had?
10
A
I don't remember.
11
12
13
A I don't.
14
15
16
17
A I don't.
18 Q
Okay. Did you -- did you read, I think it
19
was around last -- this past December the article
20
about the FEC opinion -- the FEC dismissing the
21
claim against Senator Ensign?
22
A
I remember hearing about it. I didn't
23
read any articles on it.
24 Q
Did you read the opinion of the FEC?
25
A No.
26
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 71
320
1

Q Okay.
2
3
5
6
7
: Fourth full paragraph on
8
the second page, "a person close to Mr. Ensign's
9
family spoke only on condition of an anonymity,"
10
et cetera, et cetera.
11
BY
12
13
14
A
I don't remember that, no.
15 Q
Have you ever discussed with anybody other
16
than your own counsel the FEC opinion or the
17
dismissal of the FEC claim?
18 A No. -
19
: Any questions in this time
20
frame? Okay.
21
BY
22
23
24
25 A Uh-huh, yes.
26
IIIIMIS S C E 0 0 0 1 2 72
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8 A Correct.
9 Q
Okay. Before we get to your notes on
10
that, I want to address one specific e-mail chain,
11
and it's going to be Exhibit 27A and B.
12
Before I show it to you, let's see if you
13
have a recollection independent of it.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
A Oh, yes. Yes.
22 Q
And tell us what you recall about that
23 exchange.
24 A
25
26
321
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 73
1
2
3
4

5 Q
Just to keep the timeline straight, I

6
think we're talking about two different things.

7
That occurred in late October, actually.

8 A
So then I went to him.

9
(Exhibits III-27A and-27B identified.)

10
BY

11 Q
So why don't you go ahead -- just to help

12
you out, then, I'll give you Exhibit 27. It's a

13
two-page document, 27A and B, and bears the document

14
ID number at the top of 104382.

15
(Witness reviewed the document.)

16
A
Okay. Yeah, I remember this.

17 Q
So you do recall this e-mail?

18 A Yes.

19 Q
Have you seen this e-mail since it was

20
since it happened?
21 A No.
22
23
24
25
26
322
-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 74
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
Well, I mean, II was certainly a part of
the conversation when we were --
Who is
A
A Yes, yes, yes.
A
A
324
S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 76
1
2
3
4
5
6
Q All right.
7
8
9
10 A
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
A No.
21 Q
Are you aware of any other missing e-mails
22
or gaps in any saved e-mails that you heard about in
23
relation to this matter?
24 A I don't recall.
25
26
325
SSCE0001277
1
was searching, in those collections, were you ever

2
made aware of any specific gaps in the time frame of

3 those, date range?

4 A Not that I remember.

5 Q
Okay.
6
7

8 A
And I'm sorry, what was the question? Do
9

10 Q
Do you remember --

11 A

12 Q
Did you have a response to how can lawyers

13 not have?

14 A No.

15 Q
And did you discuss that further with

16
anybody else, to your recollection?
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A Not that I remember.
(Exhibit 11128 identified.)
BY
Q
So first I'm going to give you Exhibit 28.
This is A through V. And it's 22 pages.
326
1 1 1 1 .-S S C E 0 0 0 1 2 78
3
4 Q What we'd l i k e t o do w i t h t h i s i s --
5 you're f r e e t o take as much time as you need t o
6 review them, but what we'd l i k e t o do i s s t a r t by
7 having you read a l l t h i s i n t o the r e c o r d w i t h o u t
8 i n t e r r u p t i o n , j u s t so we have a clean record as t o ,
9 you know, your t r a n s c r i p t i o n of t h i s .
10 A Read a l l the notes?
11 Yeah, read through t h i s so we have a
12 record of -- because we can't read e v e r y t h i n g here
13 obviously.
14 A Sure.
15 Q I t ' s p r e t t y good. We can read a l o t . But
16 l e t ' s j u s t have one clean record. And then w e ' l l go
17 through and ask s p e c i f i c questions about some of
18 them. But t h i s way, w e ' l l make sure t h a t we have a
19 clean record. I f you want t o read i t t o y o u r s e l f
2 0 f i r s t , t h a t ' s f i n e . Whenever you're ready, w e ' l l
21 j u s t ask you t o read i t i n t o the record.
A So you want everything, even s t u f f t h a t
23 doesn't have a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h because
24 obviously, there were other issues --
Q No, our understanding i s t h a t s t u f f t h a t
26

328
1 has n o t h i n g t o do w i t h t h i s has been You
2 might n o t i c e , f o r instance, on t h i s f i r s t page, i t
3 appears t h a t t h e r e i s something covering the top of
4 the
5 A I see.
6 Q I b e l i e v e we've been informed t h a t t h i n g s
7 t h a t are completely u n r e l a t e d t o t h i s matter may
8 have been redacted?
I've to say,
10 were t o l d t h i s was going t o be, l i k e , a two-hour

12 Yeah, I don't t h i n k t h i s
13 should take v e r y long, should i t ?
Okay. I don't know. I t
15 looks l i k e a l o t of --
16 THE WITNESS: Let me s t a r t .
17 Let's see. I don't t h i n k
18 i t should take more than f i v e minutes t o
19 read t h i s i n t o the record.
THE WITNESS:
26

5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q What you don't have t o do r i g h t now i s
e x p l a i n what you meant on any of t h i s . That w e ' l l
j u s t do s e l e c t i v e p a r t s .
A
Q Your best a b i l i t y t o read. I f you can't
read something, j u s t make t h a t record.
A

330
335
t r y and get through t h i s q u i c k l y . We have some
h i g h l i g h t s we want t o get your response t o .
THE WITNESS: Sure.
Q Let's go t o the second page, 43190,
l a b e l e d page 5. The top h a l f under t h a t 169 l a b e l ,
what do you b e l i e v e t h a t t o be from?
(Witness reviewed the document.)

338
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A Yeah, a t t h a t p o i n t --
Q But a t some p o i n t , t h a t question came up?
A Sure, because t h a t was The New York Times
I mean, they were asking.
Q A l l So w e ' l l come back t o t h a t .
A
Q
A
Q


339
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A Well, i t r e f e r s t o what i s behind t h a t
blank spot so
Q I t has nothing t o do w i t h t h i s case o r --
A I t does .
Do you guys need a minute?
THE Apparently, yes.

BY
Q Okay. We were on page 9, 43192.
A
Q What can you t e l l us?
Q
A So t h a t ' s what i t r e f e r s t o .

8 A
9 Q What were the responses?
13 (Witness reviewed the document.)
14 Q So the next page are the responses t o
15 those questions?
16 A Are h i s answers, yeah. Yeah.
17 Q So the comments on t h i s page, next page,
18 43193, are the Senator's answers?
19 A Uh-huh, yes.
2 0 Q Next page, marked 11, or 43194.
26

10 Q There i s a redacted s e c t i o n below t h a t , i t
11 appears, because you've got some s c r i b b l i n g a t the
12 end. Do you know i f t h a t had anything t o do w i t h
13 f u r t h e r i n g of t h a t conversation?
14 A I don't.
BY

SSCE0001295
9 Q Why don't we go through t h i s , because i t
10 seems t o me t h a t some of the questions get answered
11 as we go through, and we're marking what we come
12 back t o , and at the end -- l e t ' s work through
13 i t .
14 A Okay.
15

okay?
BY

18 Q Let's go t o what's marked as page 12,

2 5 Q Who s a i d i t was a problem?
26

Q And d i d you discuss whether or not i t was
a problem w i t h anyone?
Q Did the Senator address whether i t was a
problem?
A I don't remember s p e c i f i c conversations on
t h a t lunch a t t h a t time. I j u s t knew t h a t the
p e r c e p t i o n looked bad.

347
348
1 Q Let's go t o page 15, 43198.
6 THE WITNESS: To be honest, I t h i n k t h i s
7 has always been a b i g question mark f o r me, t h i s
8 I
BY
10 And then two l i n e s down i t says
and
12 A Right.
13 Q Do you have any idea what you were
14 t h i n k i n g ?
A I
2 0 Okay. Sorry.
22 That's okay. On the next page, 43199,
24 A No.
2 5 No. Do you know what they are from?
26

349

3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Okay.
Q So you don't have any r e c o l l e c t i o n about
any such conversation?
A I
Q Let's go t o the next page. I t ' s 19. At
the bottom,
A
Q

A Let me remember.

353
354
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

24
25
26
Q Did anybody on s t a f f ever l e t ' s get the
d i s t i n c t i o n .
A
Q Was anybody w o r r i e d t h a t t h a t c o u l d be
true?
A Well, sure
Q Did anybody ever express any reason t o
doubt t h a t ?
A
Q And the next page -- next page i n the
second paragraph,

1 A
2
4
5

Yes.
6

If you go two pages on to the page marked

7 22,
8
9
10
11

12

A As I recall, yes, because that's what this

13

would mean.

14 Q
Okay.
15
16

17 A
18
19
20
21

22 Q
Well, let's explore that. What's the

23 contradiction?

24 A
25
26
356
EIM-SSCE0001308
1
2

3 Q
4
5

6 A Say that again.

7 Q
8
9
10

11 A Correct. Right, correct, correct.

12 Q
13
14

15 A Yes.

16 Q
And why was that decision made?

17 A
18

19 Q
20
21
22

23 Q
24
25
26
357
SSCE0001309
358
26
SSCE0001310
1

2 A
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12

13 A
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

23 Q Do you remember getting an answer?

24 A
25
1
2
3

4 So to this day, you're not aware of any

5 information as to whether the Senator ever knew

about --

A
8

9 A I don't know.
10
11
12

13 A
14
15
16

17 Q Okay.
18
19
20
21

22 A
23
24

25 Q
Right.
26
359
-SSCE0001311
5
6
7
Q
8 A
9
10
11
12 Q
In fact, Ethics had given general guidance
13 on --
14 A You're right.
15 Q Right?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q
18
19
20
21
22
23 A
24
25 Q
26
-SSCE0001312
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Yes.
361
A
9
10
11

: I think a better question

12 might be whether it was comfortable or not, would
13 you have somehow brought it -- raised the issue.
14

BY
15
16
17
18 A Right.
19
20
21
22
23 Q
And why wasn't it expressed?
24 A Because we all worked for him.
25 Q
And was there any concern amongst the
26
-SSCE0001313
1 staff about telling the Senator that either he or

2 someone in the staff had done something wrong with

3 regard to ethics?

4 A
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

14 A
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22 A No.

23 BY

24
Q
What facts came out later that made you

25 uncomfortable making that statement?

26
362
MISSCE0001314
1 A
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14

15 BY
16
17
18

19 A I did not personally.

20
21
22
23

24 A Yes.
25
26
363
SSCE0001315
1
2
3
364
SSCE0001316
4
5
6

7 A
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16

17 page number on it. Do you have that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Okay.
20
21

22 A
23
24
25
26
each time you use discussed it?
A Yes.
BY
Q Very close. Next page, 43205, there's no
Q But did he have the same kind of statement
1

2
Q
You don't remember whether he said yes or

3 no.

And, in fact, it looks like there may be a

redaction below that.

A Uh -huh.

Do you have any idea whether there was

8 anything else written on that page?

9 A
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

24 A I don't remember specifically.

25
26
365
-SSCE0001317
1
2

3 A Well, there were e-mails about -- either

4 they had just played golf or -- I don't remember the

timeline of it, though.

6 Q Okay. All right.

7 A
8

9 Q
I want to try and finish today, so I've

10
got two more things. I'm going to show you Exhibit

11 29A, and we are not going to go through this whole

12
thing. I'm going to refer you to two points in

13 this.

14 (Exhibit 11-29 identified.)

15 BY
16
17
18
19

20 A

21 Q
Okay. So I want to go to -- turn on the

22
bottom there to Bates stamp -- this is 29A through

23
H, it's eight pages, the bottom there, Bates stamps

24 43211 through 43218.

25
Let's quickly turn to 43214. At the top
26
366
MIIIIIII-SSCE0001318
1
2
3

A Yes.
6
7
8

Do you see that?

10

A Yes.

11

Do you have any idea what that's about?

12

A Let me read this.

13

Sure.

14

(Witness reviewed the document.)

15

A I don't know what -- I mean, I generally

16 understand as far as

17 Q
Well, let me ask you this.
18
19

20 A I don't.
21
22
23
24

25 A
26
367
=I-SSCE0001319
1
2
3
4 Q
Let's go to the very last page, 43218. MM.
6
7
8
9
10 A
We had a bunch of calls, so I --
11
12
13
14
Do you recall any conversations in which
15 those were discussed?
16 A I don't.
17 Q Okay.
18
19
20
21
22
23
Do you recall that?
24
A Uh-huh.
25 Q
Was that a planned statement or was that
26
368
-SSCE0001320
1 him off the cuff?
A That was him. off the cuff.
3
4
5
6

7 A I did not. I don't know if anyone else

8 did.

9
Q
Okay. Do you recall dealing with that

10 statement of his?

11 A
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21 Q And you don't recall whether anybody else

22 said anything to that effect to the Senator?

23 A I don't recall, no.

24 Q All right. That wraps up all the

25 documents that we need to go through with you. I

26
369
-SSCE0001321
1 think you've gotten the gist of what we've been

2 talking about today,

3
4
5
6
7

8 A
9
10
11
12

13 A No.

14 Q
Okay. Let me just ask this one last

15 question.
16
17
18

19 A You mean just any ethics?

20 Q
Yeah, just do you have any knowledge of

21 what happens when you go to the Senator, saying

22 either you or somebody else did something wrong?

23 A Oh. I'm not, yeah.

24
So unless you have anything

25 else that you believe to be relevant that we haven't

26
370
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1 asked you or that you want to share with us, then
2 we're done. I'm sorry, we did push right up to the
3 two hours, but thank you.
4 (Whereupon, at 12:02 p.m., the deposition
5 was concluded.)
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IMI-SSCE0001323
1 I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read this

2
transcript of my deposition and that this transcript

3
accurately states the testimony given by me, with

4 the changes or corrections, if any, as noted.

5
6
X
8
9
10

11 Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of

12 , 20
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15

16 X

17
Notary Public
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21 My commission expires:
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SSCE0001324
CONTENTS
2
3
WITNESS
EXAMINATION
4
5 by
279
6
7
8
9
10
11
EXHIBITS
12
EXHIBIT NUMBER
IDENTIFIED
13
Exhibits
19A andIIII19B identified
286
14
Exhibits
20A and 1111120B
identified
294
15 Exhibit
21 identified
296
16 Exhibit
22 identified
301
17 Exhibit 23 identified
303
18
Exhibit
24 identified
309
19
Exhibits I1[25A and I1125B identified
310
20
Exhibit 11126 identified
317
21
Exhibits IMU27A and
-27B identified
322
22 Exhibit
28 identified
326
23 Exhibit 29 identified
366
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