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1 UNI TED STATES DI STRI CT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DI STRI CT OF NEWYORK
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3 UNI TED STATES,
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4 Pet i t i oner ,
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5 v. 90 CV 5722 ( RMB)
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6 DI STRI CT COUNCI L, et al . ,
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7 Def endant s.
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8 New Yor k, N. Y.
9 Sept ember 30, 2014
9 11: 30 a. m.
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10 Bef or e:
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11 HON. RI CHARD M. BERMAN
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12 Di st r i ct J udge
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13 APPEARANCES
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14 PREET BHARARA
15 Uni t ed St at es At t or ney f or t he
15 Sout her n Di st r i ct of New Yor k
16 BEN TORRANCE
16 TARA LaMORTE
17 Assi st ant Uni t ed St at es At t or neys
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18 BRI DGET ROHDE
18 DENNI S WALSH
19 Revi ew Of f i cer
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20 SPI VAK LI PTON LLP
20 At t or neys f or Di st r i ct Counci l
21 BY: J AMES M. MURPHY
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22 KAUFF McGUI RE AND MARGI KUS LLP
22 At t or neys f or Di st r i ct Counci l Benef i t Funds
23 BY: RAYMOND McGUI RE
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25 ( Appear ances cont i nued on next page)
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1 APPEARANCES ( CONTI NUED)
1 HOLLAND AND KNI GHT LLP
2 At t or neys f or I nt er venor Bui l di ng Cont r act or s Associ at i on
2 BY: LOREN L. FOREST, J R.
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3 ZUCKERMAN SPAEDER
4 At t or neys f or Uni t ed Br ot her hood of Car pent er s
4 BY: BARBARA J ONES
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1 THE COURT: A coupl e of t hi ngs t o st ar t . I have a
2 l unch t hat I need t o go t o at 1: 00. I f we don' t f i ni sh bef or e
3 t hen, I wi l l ask you, i f you can, t o come back. You al l br eak
4 f or l unch, and we come back and f i ni sh i n t he af t er noon. I
5 t hi nk we mi ght be abl e t o f i ni sh bef or e t hen, but not t o r ush
6 i s t he poi nt .
7 The second t hi ng t hat I want ed t o say i s t hat I was
8 ver y happy t o r ecei ve - - t hought t hey wer e qui t e i mpr essi ve - -
9 t he af f i davi t s f r ompeopl e who wor k at t he Di st r i ct Counci l ,
10 f r omMr . Lei ght , Mr . Wal ker , and Mr . Dani el son; ver y hel pf ul .
11 What I ' mt hi nki ng, whi ch woul d be r eal l y hel pf ul t o me and i f
12 i t i s okay wi t h you, I ' mpl anni ng t o schedul e i n ear l y
13 November somet hi ng l i ke - - not t o be smar t - - a
14 st at e- of - t he- uni on conver sat i on wi t h t hose peopl e i f t hey woul d
15 be agr eeabl e. I t hi nk I woul d get a much bet t er handl e or a
16 good under st andi ng of how t he Di st r i ct Counci l oper at es. I t
17 wi l l be i nf or mal , i t wi l l be i n cour t . I guess we coul d
18 devel op an agenda, but I t hi nk t hat woul d be somet hi ng usef ul .
19 Al so have someone f r omt he benef i t f und at t end and t al k about
20 t he pr ogr ess bei ng made at t he benef i t f unds, and al so t he
21 chi ef f i nanci al of f i cer may be hel pf ul unl ess t hat i s somet hi ng
22 t hat t he chi ef oper at i ng of f i cer can handl e. I t hi nk t he
23 f i nanci al aspect woul d be usef ul t o me.
24 I di d pr epar e some openi ng comment s t hat I want ed t o
25 make t o set t he st age and t hen hear f r omt hose of you who wi sh
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1 t o be hear d who have submi t t ed wr i t t en submi ssi ons i n advance.
2 So my comment s ar e t hese: Fi r st of f , I appr eci at e t he
3 gover nment , t he Di st r i ct Counsel , and t he RO br i ngi ng t o my
4 at t ent i on t hese i mpor t ant mat t er s, and par t i cul ar l y st ar t i ng I
5 t hi nk ear l i er i n t he year i n Mar ch. The t hr ust of t hei r
6 submi ssi ons i s t hat si nce t he Cour t ' s adopt i on of t he J une 3,
7 2010 st i pul at i on and or der - - and you al l know t he hi st or y of
8 t he adopt i on of t hat st i pul at i on and or der - - t he Di st r i ct
9 Counci l has made st r i des, t o be sur e, wi t h t he assi st ance of
10 t he RO, Mr . Wal sh, i n becomi ng a mor e pr of essi onal and
11 l aw- abi di ng or gani zat i on. These st r i des i ncl ude, among ot her
12 t hi ngs, t he i mpl ement at i on of var i ous f i nanci al cont r ol s,
13 i ncl udi ng t he hi r i ng of a chi ef account ant and i ndependent
14 account i ng f i r m, and t he est abl i shment of an audi t commi t t ee.
15 They al so i ncl ude t he est abl i shment of t he of f i ce of i nspect or
16 gener al of t he Di st r i ct Counci l , and t hey i ncl ude t he r et ent i on
17 of a chi ef compl i ance of f i cer , t he hi r i ng of a human r esour ces
18 di r ect or , pr ovi di ng i ncr eased t r ai ni ng t o Di st r i ct Counci l
19 busi ness r epr esent at i ves. They al so i ncl ude t he Di st r i ct
20 Counci l ' s begi nni ng t r ansi t i on t o el ect r oni c r ecor di ng of j ob
21 si t e i nf or mat i on, whi ch st i l l r equi r es, I under st and, a
22 si gni f i cant amount of t echnol ogi cal - i nf r ast r uct ur e- r el at ed wor k
23 t o r each i t s f ul l pot ent i al as an ant i - cor r upt i on t ool . These
24 st r i des al so i ncl ude t he i mpl ement at i on of new byl aws, whi ch
25 t ook ef f ect on August 5, 2011.
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1 At t he same t i me, al l t he par t i es seemt o suggest and
2 agr ee - - t hat i s t o say, t he gover nment and t he Di st r i ct
3 Counci l and t he RO - - t hat t he uni on, quot e, st i l l f aces gr ave
4 danger s f r omext er nal f or ces and r i sks f r omwi t hi n.
5 I don' t have t o r emi nd anybody t hat as r ecent l y as
6 August of 2013, t he RO had vet oed and t he Cour t sust ai ned t he
7 vet o of t he Execut i ve Secr et ar y- Tr easur er Mr . Bi l el l o.
8 Dur i ng t he t i me per i od of t he 2010 st i pul at i on and
9 or der , whi l e i t ' s been i n ef f ect , t he pr i nci pal - - I wi l l cal l
10 t hemsuppl ement s or l osses upon Di st r i ct Counci l
11 sel f - gover nance have i ncl uded t he f ol l owi ng: The appoi nt ment
12 of t he r evi ew of f i cer , who has been Denni s Wal sh; t he
13 st i pul at i on and or der ' s r equi r ement t hat t he Di st r i ct Counci l
14 gi ve t he RO pr i or not i ce of and obt ai n t he RO' s cl ear ance or
15 appr oval f or al l expendi t ur es and i nvest ment s, al l cont r act s or
16 pr oposed cont r act s, al l pr oposed appoi nt ment s t o of f i ce or
17 empl oyment , and al l pr oposed changes t o t he byl aws, and any
18 ot her r ul es, pol i ci es, or pr act i ces. I t al so i ncl uded t he RO' s
19 aut hor i t y t o vet o t he Di st r i ct Counci l ' s act i on, pr oposed
20 act i on, or l ack of act i on wi t h r espect t o any of t he
21 af or ement i oned cat egor i es, i ncl udi ng t he aut hor i t y t o vet o t he
22 ser vi ce of Di st r i ct Counci l of f i cehol der s.
23 I n poi nt of f act , t he RO, i n r esponse t o my r equest ,
24 has demonst r at ed a usef ul char t - - at l east i t was usef ul t o
25 me - - dat ed Sept ember 26, 2014. The RO has exer ci sed hi s vet o
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1 power a t ot al of 25 t i mes. I t hi nk, i n my est i mat i on, t hat i s
2 a r el at i vel y economi cal use of t he vet o power . I don' t know
3 t hat he has done any vet oes f or t he l ast appr oxi mat el y 12
4 mont hs or so.
5 I s t hat r i ght , Mr . Wal sh?
6 MR. WALSH: Cor r ect , your Honor .
7 THE COURT: So 10 of t hose 25 vet oes, appr oxi mat el y 40
8 per cent , wer e appeal ed t o t he Cour t , t o me; and i n each
9 i nst ance, I uphel d t he RO' s vet o. So t hat i ncl udes t he
10 deci si on and or der of December 21, 2010, whi ch I af f i r med t he
11 RO' s vet o of uni on of f i ce hol di ng by Messr s. Wi l l oughby, Hol t ,
12 and Dal y. I t al so i ncl udes a deci si on and or der by me dat ed
13 May 16, 2011, af f i r mi ng t he RO' s vet o of t wo di nner
14 expendi t ur es t ot al i ng $2, 569. I t al so i ncl udes t he deci si on
15 and or der agai n by t he Cour t of Oct ober 23, 2012, af f i r mi ng t he
16 RO' s vet o of uni on of f i ce hol di ng of Messr s. Nee and Messenet t i
17 and Hol ness. I t al so i ncl udes t he opi ni on and or der of mi ne
18 dat ed Apr i l 5, 2013, af f i r mi ng t he RO' s vet o of di sci pl i nar y
19 char ges br ought by a uni on member agai nst Mi chael Bi l el l o. And
20 i t al so i ncl udes a deci si on and or der dat ed J une 5, 2013,
21 af f i r mi ng t he RO vet o of uni on of f i ce hol di ng by Mr . Passer o.
22 And f i nal l y, a deci si on and or der dat ed August 5, 2013,
23 af f i r mi ng t he RO vet o of uni on of f i ce hol di ng by Execut i ve
24 Secr et ar y- Tr easur er Bi l el l o.
25 I n par t , i n subst ant i al par t , t o acknowl edge t he
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1 pr ogr ess t hat has been made by t he Di st r i ct Counci l dur i ng t he
2 cour se of t he oper at i on of t he RO and t he st i pul at i on and or der
3 and i n or der t o encour age t he Di st r i ct Counci l t o t ake st eps
4 f ur t her demonst r at e i t s pr of essi onal i smand t he absence of
5 cor r upt i on and, i mpor t ant l y, at t he par t i es' r equest , t he Cour t
6 t ook what I bel i eve t o have been a ver y i mpor t ant st ep t owar ds
7 t he Di st r i ct Counci l ' s i ndependence, and appr oved i n an or der
8 dat ed Mar ch 17 of t hi s year , 2014, t he el i mi nat i on of t he pr i or
9 not i ce r equi r ement s cont ai ned i n t he st i pul at i on and or der . As
10 I say, i n my vi ew, i n any event , I t hi nk t hat t hat was a
11 subst ant i al st ep t owar ds sel f gover nance; and i t i s one, as we
12 go on i n t hi s hear i ng her e t hi s mor ni ng, whi ch I ' mgoi ng t o ask
13 t he RO, among ot her s, how t hat has wor ked out i n pr act i ce.
14 As t he par t i es ar e awar e, Mr . Wal sh' s t er m, whi ch
15 under t hi s 2010 st i pul at i on and or der was or i gi nal l y set t o
16 expi r e i n J anuar y of 2013, i t has been ext ended sever al t i mes
17 by t he Cour t , pr i nci pal l y at t he par t i es' r equest , and now
18 ext ends t o December 31, 2014. The pur pose of t he l at est
19 ext ensi on i s t o al l ow f or t he or der l y t r ansi t i on f r omt he
20 cur r ent posi t i on of t he RO t o what t he par t i es have t er med an
21 i ndependent moni t or . I n t hi s connect i on, t he Cour t - - and I
22 know al l of you and t he par t i es wi l l agr ee - - I expr ess
23 consi der abl e gr at i t ude t o t he RO, t o Mr . Wal sh, f or hi s
24 di l i gence, har d wor k, pr of essi onal i smand, above al l , hi s
25 dedi cat i on t o t he r ul e of l aw. Al l of t he posi t i ve changes at
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1 t he Di st r i ct Counci l whi ch I have ment i oned have come about
2 dur i ng Mr . Wal sh' s t enur e as RO and pur suant t o t he aut hor i t y
3 gr ant ed t o hi mi n t he 2010 st i pul at i on and or der .
4 The l ast t hi ng I wi l l say at t hi s poi nt i s I ' mqui t e
5 f ami l i ar wi t h t he wor k and t he char act er of t he pr oposed
6 successor t o t he RO, Mr . Gl en McGor t y. I n par t i cul ar , I have
7 seen Mr . McGor t y' s wor k f i r st hand when he ser ved as an
8 Assi st ant U. S. At t or ney f or t he Sout her n Di st r i ct of New Yor k,
9 and I wi l l have no hesi t at i on i n appr ovi ng Mr . McGor t y as a
10 ver y wor t hy successor t o Mr . Wal sh. As t he par t i es have
11 agr eed, Mr . McGor t y' s t er mwi l l l ast 18 mont hs unl ess i t i s
12 ext ended.
13 I have a f ew ot her i deas, but I t hi nk t hat i s enough
14 f r omme at t hi s poi nt . Why don' t I t ur n t o you, par t i cul ar l y,
15 t he gover nment . I have r ead al l t he submi ssi ons. They' r e ver y
16 hel pf ul . I f t her e' s anyt hi ng you want t o pi npoi nt or
17 par t i cul ar l y br i ng t o my at t ent i on, I wi l l pr obabl y have some
18 quest i ons f or each of t he gover nment , t he Di st r i ct Counci l , and
19 Mr . Wal sh.
20 I t hi nk we wi l l st ar t wi t h t he gover nment .
21 MR. TORRANCE: Thank you, your Honor .
22 Benj ami n Tor r ance f or t he gover nment .
23 Fi r st of al l , I t hi nk t he Cour t cl ear l y under st ands
24 our posi t i on f r omyour Honor ' s openi ng r emar ks. One t hi ng i n
25 par t i cul ar I want ed t o echo, t hough, i s not e t he gr eat pr ogr ess
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1 t he uni on has made and not e t he gover nment ' s appr eci at i on f or
2 Mr . Wal sh' s t enur e and hi s har d wor k and r eal l y excel l ent
3 st ewar dshi p of t hi s i mpor t ant j ob. We have sai d t hat much i n a
4 l et t er t o t he Cour t , but I want ed t o say i t i n open cour t , as
5 wel l , t oday.
6 We ar e her e, of cour se, t o ask t he Cour t t o ent er t he
7 r evi sed st i pul at i on. Our posi t i on i s set f or t h i n our
8 memor andumof l at e May. Ther e may be some modi f i cat i ons t hat
9 ar e r equi r ed t o si mpl y updat e i t f or t he passage of t i me. We
10 can submi t t he mi nor modi f i cat i ons we t hi nk necessar y, most l y
11 t o j ust updat e a f ew dat es and what not .
12 The ot her t hi ng, t he Cour t had expr essed some concer n
13 about t he pr ocedur e f or t he i ndependent moni t or ' s, t he pr oposed
14 i ndependent moni t or s' s abi l i t y t o st op a uni on act i on shoul d he
15 f i nd i t t o be i n vi ol at i on of t he t er ms of t he st i pul at i on or
16 of t he l aw. We hope t hat our l et t er of Sept ember 22 i s
17 accept abl e t o t he Cour t . We do not t hi nk t hat t hat wi l l be a
18 par t i cul ar l y di f f i cul t pr ocedur e t o under t ake. We do not
19 expect t hat i t wi l l be heavi l y used. We t hi nk t he Di st r i ct
20 Counci l woul d be ver y much i l l - advi sed t o f or ce t he i ndependent
21 moni t or t o use t hat wi t h any f r equency at al l . We woul d be
22 sur pr i sed i f t hat wer e t o happen. Hopef ul l y, our l et t er and
23 pr oposed modi f i cat i on woul d assuage t he Cour t ' s concer ns on
24 t hat f r ont .
25 Ot her t han t hose poi nt s, I t hi nk we wi l l r ef er agai n
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1 t o our memor andumof l at e May and be avai l abl e t o answer any
2 quest i ons f r omt he Cour t .
3 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . I do have some quest i ons. I
4 do have quest i ons about t he l et t er , as wel l . That i s st i l l a
5 sour ce of concer n t o me, t he pr ocess, but bef or e I get t o
6 t hat - - and I agr ee, f r omt he submi ssi ons - - t he quest i on I
7 want ed t o ask you i s what , i f any, met r i cs you have used or
8 come t o your mi nd t o assess t he pr ogr ess of t he uni on dur i ng
9 t he per i od of t he st i pul at i on and or der . Obvi ousl y, you' r e
10 suggest i ng we move t o l ess - - I don' t know i f " r egul at i on" i s
11 t he t er m, I guess i t woul d suf f i ce f or now, or l ess over si ght .
12 Do you have any met r i cs par t i cul ar l y t hat you woul d r ef er t o,
13 t o measur e t hat pr ogr ess?
14 MR. TORRANCE: I t i s har d, your Honor , t o come up wi t h
15 a f or mul a i n a sense, i n t hat sense of t he wor d " met r i c, " but
16 our goal s i n t he 1990 compl ai nt , i n t he 1994 consent decr ee,
17 and i n t he 2010 st i pul at i on wer e t he same. They wer e t o ensur e
18 t hat t hi s uni on i s oper at ed l awf ul l y i n t he i nt er est s of i t s
19 member s and wi t hout i l l egal out si de i nf l uence. Those ar e st i l l
20 our t ouchst ones f or det er mi ni ng whet her t he uni on has made
21 adequat e pr ogr ess. So we ar e encour aged by speaki ng t o t he
22 r evi ew of f i cer i n r ecent mont hs t hat t her e ar e no l onger
23 compl ai nt s of or gani zed cr i me and t hat he has not i dent i f i ed
24 any such i nf l uence.
25 We ar e encour aged t hat t he st r uct ur es ar e i n pl ace t o
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1 pr event t hat ki nd of i nf l uence f r omoccur r i ng agai n; t hat
2 st r uct ur es ar e i n pl ace now t o make sur e t hat t he r unni ng of
3 t he uni on i s not up t o any i ndi vi dual who mi ght be cor r upt or
4 unl awf ul l y i nf l uenced. Ther e ar e now checks and bal ances.
5 Ther e ar e now st r uct ur es t hat woul d ser ve i f t hey' r e kept i n
6 pl ace and oper at e ef f ect i vel y t hat woul d ser ve t o pr event t hat
7 ki nd of i nf l uence and t hat ki nd of oper at i on of t he uni on f or
8 t he benef i t of one or a smal l handf ul of peopl e r at her t han f or
9 t he benef i t of t he member shi p as a whol e. We' r e encour aged
10 t hat t he el ect i ons have been r unni ng smoot hl y. Uni on democr acy
11 i s al so an i mpor t ant aspect of mi ssi on i n t hi s RI CO case, an
12 i mpor t ant aspect of f eder al l abor pol i cy.
13 I t i s di f f i cul t t o quant i f y, but i t al l comes down t o
14 speaki ng wi t h t he Cour t ' s appoi nt ed of f i cer t o det er mi ne how
15 much pr ogr ess has been made. As I sai d, we ar e encour aged by
16 what we hear .
17 THE COURT: I was t hi nki ng per sonal l y, f or me, a
18 met r i c i s i t i s r eal l y t he mechani smof how mat t er s come t o me,
19 but t he vet oes ar e a met r i c i n a way. They t el l me, i t s a
20 snapshot . I t i s not , by any measur e, a pi ct ur e of what t he
21 whol e uni on i s about , what i t i s doi ng; but i t i s at l east some
22 snapshot of some f or mof di sci pl i ne. The pr ocess i t sel f has
23 been wor ki ng, as f ar as I amconcer ned, t he vet o pr ocess. How
24 i t i s used and t he f act t hat i n t he l ast 12 mont hs or so i t
25 hasn' t been used at al l i s al so a met r i c. The number of cases
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1 i s somet hi ng of a met r i c, and al so t he sever i t y or t he ki nd of
2 case. I n f act , most of t he vet oes t hat have come t o my
3 at t ent i on - - t her e wer e seven al t oget her - - f our pl us had t o do
4 wi t h peopl e i n of f i ce. So t hat ' s one measur e.
5 MR. TORRANCE: Ri ght . I woul d agr ee wi t h t hat , your
6 Honor . I t hi nk t hat i f one wer e t o l ook at t he cr i t er i a f or
7 vet o i n Par agr aph 5( b) ( 3) , essent i al l y t hey accor d wi t h t he
8 ki nd of ant i - cor r upt i on and oper at i on i n accor dance wi t h t he
9 i nt er est s of t he member shi p, oper at i on i n accor dance wi t h t he
10 f i duci ar y dut i es expr essed bef or e. I t hi nk t hose ar e
11 essent i al l y al ong t he same l i nes.
12 I mi ght not e, i f your Honor i s l ooki ng f or mor e
13 speci f i c met r i cs l i ke t hat , I ' mt ol d t hat t he hot l i ne has not
14 had any si gni f i cant compl ai nt s i n appr oxi mat el y a year . The
15 hot l i ne was cer t ai nl y what Mr . Mack, wi t h t he cour t - appoi nt ed
16 of f i cer , was a f r equent sour ce of compl ai nt , of f - t he- book wor k
17 and ot her t ypes of war ni ng si gns and act ual evi dence of
18 i l l egal i t y, f r aud, and or gani zed cr i me i nf l uence. That
19 hot l i ne i s now qui et , and t hat i s ver y encour agi ng t o us.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I ' ma l i t t l e of t he mi nd - - you may
21 be get t i ng t hi s - - t hat j ust wi t h r espect t o t hi s vet o pr ocess,
22 I ' ma l i t t l e bi t of t he mi nd t hat i f i t ai n' t br oke, why f i x i t
23 i f , i n f act , t he met r i c or t he syst emi s t el l i ng us t hat t her e
24 ar e no vet oes. We hope t her e ar e no vet oes. I f t her e ar en' t
25 or f ewer , t hen t he l anguage changes and t he bur den of pr oof
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1 changes and t he pr ocess changes woul d be i r r el evant , r i ght ? I f
2 t her e wer e no vet oes, i t woul dn' t mat t er who had t o br i ng t he
3 case or who had t o def end t he case or what t he bur den of pr oof .
4 I know t hi s al so, of cour se, because you br ought i t t o my
5 at t ent i on; i n your l et t er , i n t he l ast par agr aph, you' r e sayi ng
6 t hat even among your sel ves - - I don' t know, per haps t her e have
7 been f ur t her changes - - but t her e' s st i l l f l ux as t o whet her
8 wi t h r espect t o peopl e hol di ng of f i ce, how t hat wi l l be
9 handl ed. I guess t her e i s mor e t o come. I guess you al l ar e
10 t al ki ng about t hat .
11 MR. TORRANCE: I t hi nk t he answer t o bot h of t hose i s
12 si mi l ar . I t hi nk t hat i t i s i mpor t ant f or t he gover nment not
13 t o be i n t he busi ness of per pet ual over si ght of a l abor uni on.
14 A l abor uni on i s supposed t o be an i ndependent or gani zat i on r un
15 by i t s member s and f or i t s member s. I t i s i mpor t ant t hat i t
16 event ual l y achi eve f r eedomf r omt hi s moni t or shi p.
17 I t hi nk t hat gi ven t he pr ogr ess t hat has been made, i t
18 i s appr opr i at e f or t he gover nment , i n agr eei ng t o t he r evi sed
19 st i pul at i on, t o si gnal t hat we ar e st eppi ng t hi ngs down; t hat
20 i f t her e have been no vet oes, t her e has been no pr oven need f or
21 a vet o, t hat we wi l l si gnal t hat we ar e movi ng away f r omt hat
22 and al l owi ng t he uni on t o gover n i t sel f i s a mor e f ul l way.
23 THE COURT: Why woul dn' t t hat be si gnal enough, no
24 vet o?
25 MR. TORRANCE: I amt ol d by t he Di st r i ct Counci l t hat
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1 t hat i s an i mpor t ant change f or t hemi n t er ms of not f eel i ng
2 t hat t her e i s someone l ooki ng over t hei r shoul der al l t he t i me;
3 t hat i t i s i mpor t ant f or t hemt o f eel t hat i ndependence. That
4 i s somet hi ng t hat Ms. J ones can addr ess bet t er t han I can. We
5 accept ed t hat concer n. I n t er ms of t he l ast par agr aph of our
6 Sept ember 22 l et t er , I do emphasi ze t hat t hat i s st i l l i n
7 di scussi on. We don' t know whet her t hat i s st i l l goi ng t o
8 happen. But I t hi nk t hat i t i s al ong t he same l i nes of sayi ng
9 t hat , l ook, i f pr ogr ess cont i nues t o occur and i t can be
10 measur ed and demonst r at ed, we woul d be wi l l i ng t o st ar t
11 st eppi ng down. We don' t t hi nk t hat a col d t ur key appr oach t o
12 endi ng t he moni t or shi p i s t he r i ght way t o go.
13 THE COURT: We' r e cl ear l y not doi ng t hat .
14 MR. TORRANCE: Ri ght .
15 THE COURT: Cl ear l y, as we' r e sayi ng, f i r st of al l ,
16 t he not i ce, t he pr i or not i ce i s gone. I t hi nk t hat i s a bi g
17 st ep. I ' mgoi ng t o have no pr obl em, i f you need my - - I guess
18 you do - - aut hor i zat i on t o have Mr . McGor t y st ep i n i n somewhat
19 of a di f f er ent capaci t y but anal ogous t o Mr . Wal sh. I t i s j ust
20 t hi s l anguage, t hi s i s l anguage, but i t has si gni f i cance i f i t
21 comes i nt o pl ay. I r eal l y don' t get i t .
22 I wi l l hear f r omMs. J ones.
23 MR. TORRANCE: I ' mnot sur e I have much t o add except
24 t hat I t hi nk i t i s i mpor t ant t o say t o t he uni on t hat we' r e
25 wi l l i ng t o shi f t t he bur den away f r omt hemas an i ndi cat or - -
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1 THE COURT: Cl ear l y, we' r e al l sayi ng t hat .
2 MR. TORRANCE: I mean i n t hi s - -
3 THE COURT: I know. Okay. I get i t .
4 MR. TORRANCE: Thank you, your Honor .
5 MS. J ONES: J udge, t he r eason why t he uni on was ver y
6 concer ned about t r ansi t i oni ng away f r omt he vet o was because
7 j ust t he t hr eat of a vet o i s somet hi ng t hat hangs over peopl e' s
8 heads and - -
9 THE COURT: That ' s exact l y what i t i s supposed t o do.
10 MS. J ONES: Ri ght . I agr ee wi t h you, your Honor . But
11 my t hi nki ng i s t hat we' r e i n a st age now, or at l east we wi l l
12 be, wher e we' r e at t empt i ng t o demonst r at e t hat we can r un
13 our sel ves. The power t hat i s l ef t wi t hi n t he f our cor ner s of
14 t hi s st i pul at i on gi ves t he moni t or and t he gover nment ampl e
15 aut hor i t y t o come i n i f somet hi ng i s happeni ng. To have a vet o
16 hangi ng over your head I t hi nk - - and I bel i eve t he member s of
17 t he Di st r i ct Counci l , cer t ai nl y t hose who have exper i enced t hi s
18 or t hought about i t or been concer ned about i t , i t has a
19 chi l l i ng ef f ect . I t i s har d t o demonst r at e t hat you can gover n
20 your sel ves when, t o some ext ent , you r eal i ze t hat i f you
21 di sagr ee or don' t agr ee wi t h t he suggest i on, t hat t her e i s a
22 possi bi l i t y of a vet o.
23 THE COURT: I don' t get t hat . I f you do somet hi ng
24 you' r e not supposed t o do, yeah, t her e i s a possi bi l i t y of a
25 vet o, i f you have an unl awf ul expendi t ur e or i f you mi suse
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1 uni on f unds. Ther e i s not hi ng t r i vi al i n t he cases t hat we' ve
2 had. They shoul d be chi l l ed not t o vi ol at e t he byl aws and t he
3 consent decr ee and t he st i pul at i on, no quest i on. Now I wi l l
4 get i nt o t he speci f i cs because I don' t even know how i t wor ks.
5 When I say " I don' t know, " I t hi nk I do know and amnot so
6 comf or t abl e wi t h how i t wor ks, t he mechani sm.
7 MS. J ONES: I ' msor r y. Woul d you l i ke me t o t al k
8 about t he mechani sm- -
9 THE COURT: Sur e.
10 MS. J ONES: - - t hat t he gover nment and we have
11 pr oposed?
12 THE COURT: Let ' s t ake a hypot het i cal exampl e. Let ' s
13 say t hat t he I M i s of t he opi ni on t hat an of f i cer of t he
14 Di st r i ct Counci l has done somet hi ng whi ch vi ol at es t he byl aws
15 or t he st i pul at i on or f i duci ar y dut y. Okay, so t hen what
16 happens?
17 MS. J ONES: The I M woul d do what t he RO has done,
18 whi ch woul d be t o i nvest i gat e, t o cr eat e a r ecor d, t o pr obabl y
19 i nt er vi ew t he per son, as has been done bef or e wi t h t he r i ght t o
20 br i ng counsel i n i f t hey so choose.
21 THE COURT: I ' mal l f or t hat .
22 MS. J ONES: Then, t he I M woul d not i f y t he per son t hat
23 he i nt ended t o pet i t i on t he Cour t t o f ol l ow what woul d be i n
24 hi s pet i t i on, whi ch woul d be a r ecommendat i on t hat t hi s per son
25 l ose hi s posi t i on or l ose hi s j ob.
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1 THE COURT: That ' s t he par t wher e I have t r oubl e,
2 because i f I under st and t hat st at ement , so t he RO or t he I M
3 r eal l y can' t do anyt hi ng but make a r ecommendat i on, and so
4 l et ' s say - - i f I under st and t he pr ocess - - t he I M pet i t i ons
5 t he Cour t , says t hi s i s what I have f ound. Let ' s say t he
6 r ecommendat i on i s t hat t hi s per son be r emoved. Hypot het i cal .
7 MS. J ONES: Ri ght , and t he pet i t i on t hat woul d come
8 bef or e t he Cour t f r omt he I M woul d demonst r at e subst ant i al
9 evi dence of wr ongdoi ng.
10 THE COURT: Can' t be ar bi t r ar y, capr i ci ous, al l of
11 t hat .
12 MS. J ONES: Al l of t hat . And t hen your Honor woul d
13 have essent i al l y t he same t ype of hear i ng or pr ocess t hat you
14 had i n t he past .
15 THE COURT: Ri ght . But her e' s t he pr obl em. So I
16 t hi nk what t he I M woul d be aski ng t he Cour t was t o t ake an
17 act i on t hat pr evi ousl y was t he f unct i on of t he RO. So t he RO
18 i n t he past woul d say, I f ound al l of t hi s and you ar e out as
19 what ever , what ever of f i ce you' r e hol di ng. Then t he per son who
20 was out , r i ght l y so, has t he abi l i t y t o appeal t o t he Cour t ,
21 and I woul d r evi ew t he RO' s act i ons, make sur e t her e was
22 subst ant i al evi dence t hat i t wasn' t ar bi t r ar y, et c.
23 I t st r i kes me t hat under t he new pr ocedur e - - and t hi s
24 i s t he par t t hat I ' mnot comf or t abl e wi t h - - t he act i on t hat i s
25 t o be t aken i s t aken by t he Cour t i n t he f i r st i nst ance. I t i s
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1 movi ng i n exact l y t he opposi t e di r ect i on of wher e I t hi nk i t
2 shoul d move; t hat i s t o say, I t hi nk t he act i on shoul d be a
3 uni on act i on. I don' t r un t he uni on. I don' t know t he
4 day- t o- day af f ai r s. I t hi nk, under your pr ocess, you' r e aski ng
5 me t o say or not say - - but l et ' s say I deci de t hat I amdoi ng
6 t he r i ght t hi ng - - t hen I ' mt o af f i r mt he r ecommendat i on, and
7 now, t hi s per son, you' r e out . Then, i f t he per son who i s out
8 doesn' t l i ke t hat r esul t , t hey appeal t hat t o t he Cour t of
9 Appeal s, I guess. Ri ght ?
10 MS. J ONES: Yes, your Honor . You woul d be af f i r mi ng
11 t he deci si on.
12 THE COURT: No, I woul dn' t . I woul d be t aki ng t he
13 deci si on. I woul d be af f i r mi ng t he r ecommendat i on, but I woul d
14 be t aki ng t he deci si on, because under t he way you phr ased i t ,
15 t he I M has no aut hor i t y or no power t o t ake t hat act i on. And
16 t hat , I t hi nk, i s a mi st ake.
17 MS. J ONES: Wel l , I t hi nk t he goal her e - -
18 THE COURT: Not a mi st ake. I don' t t hi nk t hat i s t he
19 r i ght way t o go about t hi s. I t hi nk i t i s movi ng t he aut hor i t y
20 i n exact l y t he wr ong di r ect i on. I t hi nk t he aut hor i t y i s best
21 i f kept i n t he uni on.
22 Now, don' t get me wr ong. Ther e i s some di scussi on
23 goi ng on t hat i t won' t be f or t he Cour t at al l . My f eel i ngs
24 wi l l not be t he l east bi t hur t i f i t get s moved t o t he t r i al
25 commi t t ee or some ot her mechani sm. I t i s not a quest i on of me
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1 want i ng t o - -
2 MS. J ONES: And I t hi nk your Honor has under st ood
3 qui t e wel l what t he goal i s her e.
4 THE COURT: I get t he goal .
5 MS. J ONES: The ul t i mat e goal i s no cour t r evi ew.
6 THE COURT: Ri ght .
7 MS. J ONES: Ri ght t hr ough t he uni on pr ocess.
8 THE COURT: That ' s f i ne. Li ke I say, t hat i s not
9 somet hi ng t hat per sonal l y woul d bot her me i f you al l concl uded
10 t hat t he t i me was r i ght f or t hat . Thi s i nt er i mst ep i s what I
11 don' t r eal l y f eel i s advi sabl e. Li ke I say, I do under st and
12 t he i mpor t ance of sendi ng si gnal s; and I t hi nk f r ommy poi nt of
13 vi ew, as I sai d bef or e, t he bi ggest si gnal was el i mi nat i on of
14 t hi s pr e- cl ear ance. That must have been a bi g pai n i n t he
15 neck. And al so admi ni st r at i vel y, t hat r equi r ed a l ot of ef f or t
16 t o say, bef or e I si gn t hi s cont r act , I have t o cal l Mr . Wal sh,
17 see i f i t i s okay, bl ah, bl ah, bl ah. That ' s an enor mous, I
18 t hi nk, si gnal of sel f gover nance.
19 Al so, t he i nt r oduct i on of an I M f ol l owi ng t he RO, wi t h
20 somewhat a l ess r ol e, because you have al l t hese ot her
21 wonder f ul peopl e wor ki ng her e who ar e ver y pr of essi onal and by
22 al l account s doi ng a good j ob, but t hat one st ep, l i ke I say, I
23 t hi nk i s goi ng i n t he wr ong di r ect i on.
24 MS. J ONES: I t hi nk t he gover nment has somet hi ng t o
25 of f er her e.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MS. J ONES: Mr . Tor r ance.
3 MR. TORRANCE: I j ust passed a not e t o suggest t hat i f
4 I ' munder st andi ng t he Cour t ' s concer n about act ual l y maki ng t he
5 deci si on, you know, I t hi nk t hat per haps we coul d wor k on t he
6 wor di ng and say t hat t he i ndependent moni t or makes t he deci si on
7 af t er t hi s pr ocess but - -
8 THE COURT: And t he per son i s out .
9 MR. TORRANCE: - - but i f t her e i s goi ng t o be
10 enf or cement and i f t he uni on obj ect s t o t hat deci si on, i n or der
11 t o enf or ce i t , t he i ndependent moni t or woul d have t o come t o
12 cour t and say - -
13 THE COURT: That ' s t he second par t t hat I don' t t hi nk
14 i s t he r i ght pr ocess. I don' t t hi nk t hat t hat per son has t o
15 appeal hi s own deci si on. I t hi nk t hat hi st or i cal l y i n our
16 syst emwher e someone doesn' t l i ke what t he I RS says i s my t ax
17 bur den, i t i s not t he I RS t hat goes t o t he hi gher aut hor i t y and
18 says, we know we char ged t hat per son t he r i ght amount of ext r a
19 t axes, i t i s t he per son who was char ged. So i t st r i kes me t hat
20 t he I M i s not t he per son t o appeal hi s own deci si on. I f he has
21 act ed pr oper l y and had subst ant i al evi dence and he r emoved
22 someone f r omt he posi t i on, t hen i t r emoves t hat per son, and I
23 t hi nk t hat hi st or i cal l y t he r esponse has been pr et t y qui ck t o
24 wher e t her e i s an appeal . But I t hi nk i t behooves t hat per son
25 t o appeal t he deci si on.
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1 MR. TORRANCE: I woul d not e I t hi nk t hat i s cor r ect
2 wi t h r espect t o, f or exampl e, t he I RS; but my under st andi ng i s
3 t hat some ot her agenci es, f or i nst ance t he NLRB, has t o
4 pet i t i on t o enf or ce i t s or der s. So I t hi nk t hat t her e ar e
5 anal ogues. I ' mnot a l abor l awyer - -
6 THE COURT: Nei t her amI .
7 MR. TORRANCE: - - but I do bel i eve t her e ar e some
8 gover nment act i ons t hat t he gover nment does have t o go t o
9 cour t .
10 THE COURT: Maybe t her e ar e.
11 MS. J ONES: J udge, one qui ck t hi ng. The mai n r eason
12 why t he Di st r i ct Counci l want ed some t r ansi t i on away f r omvet o
13 was r eal l y, one, a si gn t hat we have made pr ogr ess. I t hi nk
14 you' r e r i ght about t he pr e- not i ce. We coul d not be out
15 happi er , t he Di st r i ct Counci l i s t hr i l l ed t hat t hat i s gone.
16 I t was an admi ni st r at i ve bur den. Mr . Wal sh has expr essed how
17 wel l ever ybody i s doi ng wi t hout i t .
18 THE COURT: That i s a r eal oper at i onal mechani sm.
19 Thi s one you' r e pr esent i ng - - I get i t - - i s somewhat of a
20 psychol ogi cal - -
21 MS. J ONES: And i t came f r omt he concer n about bei ng
22 t hr eat ened wi t h somet hi ng t hat t ook ef f ect i mmedi at el y, and
23 t hen t he bur den was on t he per son i n t he Di st r i ct Counci l t o
24 possi bl y get a l awyer , possi bl y cr eat e a pet i t i on and come i nt o
25 cour t . Thi s does put mor e bur den on t he moni t or ; but on t he
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1 ot her hand, we t hi nk t he val ue of t hat i s mor e i mpor t ant , and
2 t he val ue bei ng, yes, psychol ogi cal among ot her t hi ngs. But
3 al so we' r e i n a wor l d wher e t her e hasn' t been, as you suggest ed
4 or sai d, a vet o i n over a year .
5 THE COURT: That ' s t he bot t oml i ne. That ' s what I ' m
6 sayi ng. I f t her e i s no pr obl em, why f i x t he pr obl em? The r eal
7 i ssue t hat ever ybody agr ees i s t hat you hope t o put t he
8 moni t or , t he RO, and t hen t he I M out of busi ness so t her e won' t
9 be any vet oes, t her e won' t be any pet i t i ons, ever ybody i s goi ng
10 t o f ol l ow t he r ul es, et c. , et c. I t i s headi ng i n t hat
11 di r ect i on, no quest i on about i t . You get what I ' msayi ng.
12 MS. J ONES: I do.
13 THE COURT: I don' t t hi nk i t i s wi se t o st ar t a new
14 r egi me f or a pr obl empar t i cul ar l y t hat you al l ar e - - and I am,
15 t oo - - t hi nki ng i s goi ng away. And i t i s not j ust a new
16 r egi me; i t i s one t hat I t hi nk goes i n t he wr ong di r ect i on.
17 MS. J ONES: I cer t ai nl y - -
18 THE COURT: I say t hat most r espect f ul l y.
19 MS. J ONES: I know. I under st and, J udge.
20 Your Honor , we woul d l ove t o be at a pl ace at a t i me
21 wher e we go r i ght t hr ough t he di sci pl i nar y pr ocess.
22 THE COURT: Sur e. Al l r i ght .
23 I do have a coupl e f or you, Mr . Wal sh, i f you don' t
24 mi nd.
25 Fi r st of al l , can you t al k t o us about t he el i mi nat i on
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1 of t he pr i or not i ce, how t hat has been i mpl ement ed, and does i t
2 wor k?
3 MR. WALSH: I can t el l you t hat t he Di st r i ct Counci l
4 has spent ever y one of i t s dol l ar s si nce t he el i mi nat i on of t he
5 pr i or not i ce met i cul ousl y, accor di ng t o pr oper pr ocedur e, wi t h
6 an eye t owar ds savi ng what ever possi bl e money t hat i s t he
7 pr oper t y of t hei r r ank and f i l e member s. The l ocal uni ons have
8 al so been met i cul ous i n t he way t hey have spent t hei r money. I
9 t hi nk t he r emoval of t he pr i or not i ce r equi r ement has been a
10 si gni f i cant success.
11 I t hi nk t her e i s a bi t of a t ensi on i n t r yi ng t o f i nd
12 a met r i c t hat wi l l r eal l y accompl i sh t he si gni f i cant next st ep
13 t hat i s necessar y i n t hi s pr ocess. The uni on has made i t pl ai n
14 t hat t hey want ed t he el i mi nat i on of t he vet o f or some t i me now,
15 goi ng back t o t he ear l y spr i ng. I suppor t t he i dea of
16 el i mi nat i ng t he vet o and maki ng i t pl ai n t hat what ever f ol l ows
17 i s not somet hi ng t hat di sgui ses, t hat i t i s st i l l a vet o.
18 We had a meet i ng yest er day, I at t ended a meet i ng wi t h
19 t he counsel f or t he uni on and f or t he gover nment wher e we di d
20 have a ver y const r uct i ve di al ogue about al t er nat i ves t o t he
21 mechani smt hat was pr oposed i n t he st i pul at i on t hat was
22 submi t t ed i n May.
23 I al so, at t he r equest of t he Cour t , submi t t ed a
24 bl ack- l i ne ver si on, r espect i ng t he uni on' s st r ong desi r e t o get
25 r i d of t he vet o. The r eason I suppor t r emovi ng t he vet o i s
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1 t hat i t gi ves us a vi ew as t o whet her t he r ef or ms wi l l st i ck,
2 t hat t hey wi l l l ast , t hat peopl e woul d r espect t hei r f i duci ar y
3 obl i gat i on under 29 U. S. C. 501, t hat t hey wi l l adher e t o t he
4 byl aws, t hat t hey wi l l spend money and conduct t hemsel ves i n a
5 pr oper way. I f t her e i s i nst i t ut i onal conduct , t hat needs t o
6 be cl ear l y def i ned as i nst i t ut i onal conduct . I f t her e i s
7 i ndi vi dual conduct , wher e an of f i cer or an empl oyee has done
8 somet hi ng wr ong, as t he par t i es have of f er ed, i f i t i s an
9 empl oyee or of f i cer of t he counsel or l ocal uni on, t he moni t or
10 can br i ng a char ge i n t he t r i al commi t t ee t hat wi l l be hear d by
11 t he t hr ee j udges of t he t r i al commi t t ee, and t hat ver di ct under
12 t he pr oposal wi l l be appeal ed t o t he Cour t , but i t may not be
13 appeal ed. The concept boi l ed down t o don' t t ake t he I M' s wor d
14 f or i t . Thr ee l ear ned l awyer s who ar e r unni ng t hi s t r i al
15 commi t t ee have f ound t hat t her e i s subst ant i al evi dence t hat
16 t he conduct occur r ed.
17 Hi st or i cal l y, when I assi st ed Kennet h Conboy, when he
18 was t he I RO, when he was f i r st ext ended, t hose char ges wer e
19 pr esent ed di r ect l y t o t he r ank and f i l e member s of t he t r i al
20 commi t t ee. That was a mi st ake, havi ng been i n t hat f or um, but
21 we have t aken car e of t hat or t he par t i es have t aken car e of
22 t hat by pr esent i ng t hose char ges t o t he t hr ee l awyer s who r un
23 t he t r i al commi t t ee wi t h a r i ght of appeal t o t he Cour t .
24 THE COURT: That i s pr oposed, because I have never
25 got t en anyt hi ng f r omt he t r i al commi t t ee - -
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1 MR. WALSH: I bel i eve i t does aut hor i ze t he
2 i ndependent moni t or t o br i ng char ges agai nst i ndi vi dual s who
3 ar e member s of t he uni on, or of f i cer s of t he uni on. I t must be
4 uni on member s t o use t hat mechani sm. I t i s not goi ng t o have
5 any f or ce and ef f ect wi t h r espect t o t he benef i t f unds. They
6 ar e out si de of t hat scope. But wi t h r espect t o i ndi vi dual
7 conduct of of f i cer s and member s, t hat coul d be an ef f ect i ve
8 mechani smt o deal wi t h t he i ndi vi dual conduct .
9 THE COURT: Thi s i s pr ospect i ve?
10 MR. WALSH: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Thi s i s not hi st or i cal ?
12 MR. WALSH: No. I do poi nt out t he hi st or i cal
13 anal ogue t hat Mr . Conboy f aced, but we f i xed t hat pr obl em. I t
14 i s al l an at t empt t o put t he bur den on t he uni on mechani sms t o
15 sol ve pr obl ems t o get i t out si de of a moni t or and RO and t he
16 di st r i ct cour t .
17 THE COURT: To my knowl edge, not hi ng ever has come
18 f r omt he t r i al commi t t ee t o t he di st r i ct cour t . I t st ops at
19 t he l evel of t he t r i al .
20 MR. WALSH: Ri ght . Those appeal s, under t he cur r ent
21 st i pul at i on and or der , ar e t aken t o t he UBC execut i ve commi t t ee
22 i n Washi ngt on. I have onl y used t hat mechani smt hr ee t i mes,
23 and t hat was ear l y i n my t enur e.
24 Wi t h r espect t o t he i nst i t ut i onal i ssues t hat mi ght
25 ar i se - - and I r eal l y t hi nk t hat t hey won' t - - t her e i s
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1 somet hi ng t hat i s i n t he pr oposal under t he r ecommendat i on
2 aut hor i t y of t he i ndependent moni t or t hat mi ght usef ul her e,
3 and we di scussed t hi s yest er day; t hat t he I M wi l l br i ng t he
4 pr obl emt o t he at t ent i on of t he r esponsi bl e body and say, l ook
5 i t , I have done my i nvest i gat i on, her e' s t he r ecor d, t hi s i s
6 what you need t o do or i t wi l l be my vi ew t hat you have
7 vi ol at ed t he st i pul at i on and or der , you have vi ol at ed t he
8 f eder al l aw, t he consent decr ee, what ever combi nat i on of
9 t hi ngs. The onus wi l l be on t hemt o adopt what i s, i n essence,
10 i s hi s r ecommendat i on. I f t hey don' t do t hat , whi ch I t hi nk
11 woul d be a huge mi st ake, under st andi ng t hat t he I M wi l l be
12 met i cul ous i n t hi s r egar d, t hen t hat wi l l open t he door f or t he
13 I M t o pet i t i on t he Cour t t o say adopt my r ecommendat i on.
14 So t her e ar e al t er nat i ves. To use a col l oqui al
15 phr ase, what wal ks l i ke a duck and quacks l i ke a duck, what
16 l ooks l i ke a vet o may be per cei ved by many t o be a vet o.
17 THE COURT: Al l I ' msuggest i ng, t hat we cal l i t a vet o
18 because i t has a pr ocess, a f unct i on, and hopef ul l y i s never
19 used, i nst ead of t r yi ng - - whi ch i s what we' r e t r yi ng t o do - -
20 t o sor t of t wi st ar ound, come up wi t h ot her mechani sms. I r ead
21 i t pr et t y car ef ul l y. The act i on i s t aken by a cour t , i t i s not
22 t ake by t he uni on. I t st r i kes me t hat i t shoul d be t aken by
23 t he uni on, whet her i t i s t he I M or t he RO or t he execut i ve
24 commi t t ee. The Cour t , i n my opi ni on, shoul d be i n t he busi ness
25 of r evi ewi ng somet hi ng t hat t he uni on has done, not di r ect i ng
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1 what t he uni on shoul d do. Ei t her way of t hose al t er nat i ves,
2 any of t hese al t er nat i ves don' t accompl i sh t hat . That ' s wher e
3 I am. I amsayi ng, i f i t ai n' t br oke, don' t f i x i t . Ther e i s
4 a pr ocess. Don' t use i t . I woul d onl y be t oo happy i f t he I M
5 never uses i t , i f he doesn' t have any occasi on t o use i t .
6 Then, i t ' s not hangi ng over anybody' s head, but al l t hese ot her
7 measur es ar e t r yi ng t o make a duck, i f you know what I mean,
8 and t hat ' s t he way i t i s comi ng out . To me, anyway. I don' t
9 need t o beat t he dead hor se.
10 Ther e i s one ot her concer n t hat I have, whi ch I don' t
11 under st and. I t i s, agai n, i n t he cat egor y of , i f i t ai n' t
12 br oke, don' t f i x i t . So now you - - as nobody knows bet t er t han
13 you - - you have t he aut hor i t y t o not qual i f y someone who i s
14 r unni ng f or of f i ce. Ri ght ? They have t o go t o you. You
15 scr een t hemand you det er mi ne. And t her e' s br oad aut hor i t y and
16 br oad l anguage t hat gi ves you t he abi l i t y, non- r evi ewabl e dut y
17 t o do t hat . I n t he pr oposal , t her e' s a l i st of t hr ee or f our
18 t hi ngs now t hat ar e I guess sor t of aut omat i c. I don' t
19 under st and, honest l y, why we need t hose t hi ngs, ei t her , added.
20 Agai n, because, t he way i t was happeni ng bef or e, i t di dn' t seem
21 t o pose any pr obl emt o me. I don' t know why we woul d pi ck out
22 t hose f our ver sus f our ot her t hi ngs. The mor e you add l anguage
23 t o t he st at ut e, t he mor e i nt er pr et at i on and compl exi t y, and I
24 j ust don' t under st and t hat change. Those ar e t he t wo concer ns
25 t hat I have, t he vet o pr ocess and t he di squal i f i cat i on - -
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1 MR. WALSH: Your Honor , I wi l l cer t ai nl y def er t o t he
2 par t i es on t he subst ant i ve aspect of t hat .
3 Wi t h r espect t o t he el ect i on cycl e t hat i s happeni ng
4 r i ght now, t he pet i t i on deadl i ne has passed, and t he pet i t i ons
5 t hat wer e submi t t ed ar e bei ng r evi ewed. Ther e i s a sl at e of
6 i ncumbent s headed by J oseph Gei ger .
7 THE COURT: The i ncumbent .
8 MR. WALSH: Yes.
9 No one f i l ed ei t her an i ndi vi dual or a sl at e pet i t i on
10 t o chal l enge Mr . Gei ger , and no one f i l ed a pet i t i on t o
11 chal l enge Mr . Cavanaugh, t he vi ce pr esi dent . A member has
12 submi t t ed pet i t i ons whi ch ar e under r evi ew t o chal l enge
13 Mr . McI nni s as t he pr esi dent .
14 THE COURT: So I t hi nk I r emember , t he EST i s t he t op
15 of f i ci al . The second t op of f i ci al i s not t he pr esi dent ?
16 MR. WALSH: Wel l , t he pr esi dent convenes, conduct s al l
17 of t he meet i ngs, t he execut i ve commi t t ee meet i ng, t he del egat e
18 body meet i ng; and t he vi ce pr esi dent per f or ms t hat f unct i on
19 when t he pr esi dent i s not avai l abl e. The byl aws do pr ovi de f or
20 t he EST t o del egat e hi s aut hor i t y t o r ecei ve t he assi st ance of
21 t he pr esi dent and t he vi ce pr esi dent on a sal ar y basi s, and
22 Mr . Gei ger has done t hat . He has cont i nued t he del egat i on of
23 aut hor i t y f or bot h Mr . McI nni s and Mr . Cavanaugh.
24 The l anguage goi ng f or war d, based on t he pr oj ect ed
25 t er mof t he I M, i s i n f act not goi ng t o come i n pl ay based on
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1 t he el ect i on cycl e. I t i s an 18- mont h t er m, and we have got a
2 t hr ee- year t er mf or t he execut i ve br anch. That wi l l gi ve t he
3 uni on and t he gover nment enough t i me wi t h t he I M t o di scuss
4 what changes need t o be made, whet her t he appr oval pr ocess
5 i ndeed may even be necessar y.
6 THE COURT: The el ect i on i s when?
7 MR. WALSH: The mai l bal l ot s wi l l be sent out i n t he
8 ear l y par t of December , and t hey wi l l be count ed bef or e t he end
9 of t he year .
10 THE COURT: I n any case, as you poi nt out , t hi s
11 el ect i on i s under t he st i pul at i on and or der so t o speak and not
12 i mpact ed by t he di scussi on we' r e havi ng.
13 MR. WALSH: Ri ght .
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. TORRANCE: I can br i ef l y addr ess t he 5J el ect i on.
16 I t hi nk t hose cr i t er i a, f r omt he gover nment ' s vi ewpoi nt , ser ve
17 t o i ncr ease t r anspar ency, ef f ect i vel y codi f yi ng t he cr i t er i a
18 t hat t he r evi ew of f i cer has used, t he non- r evi ewabl e power
19 t o - - I don' t want t o use t he wor d " vet o" - - To pr event someone
20 f r omr unni ng f or of f i ce i s an ext r aor di nar y power . I t i s a
21 ver y st r ong power . We t hought t hat i t woul d be usef ul t o st at e
22 what t he most common cr i t er i a ar e, agai n t o i ncr ease
23 t r anspar ency i n t hat r egar d, par t i cul ar l y gi ven t he st r engt h of
24 t hat power .
25 THE COURT: I t hi nk t her e i s some cat chal l t her e i n
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1 any event .
2 MR. TORRANCE: Ther e i s.
3 THE COURT: Af t er al l i s sai d and done, I st i l l have
4 t he aut hor i t y t o st op you f r omr unni ng.
5 MR. TORRANCE: That i s t r ue, but I do t hi nk i t hel ps
6 t he publ i c under st andi ng and t he member shi p under st andi ng of
7 what i s goi ng on her e t o st at e what common cr i t er i a ar e.
8 THE COURT: What I t hi nk mi ght be - - you don' t have t o
9 r espond now - - mor e hel pf ul or mor e pal at abl e i f i t i s sai d t he
10 I M may t ake i nt o consi der at i on f act or s such as t he f ol l owi ng
11 i nst ead of maki ng t hemaut omat i c, because you t hen gi ve hi mt he
12 over al l aut hor i t y anyway, r i ght . So i f you want t hose out
13 t her e as t hi ngs t hat may cause a pr obl em, I t hi nk I woul d st at e
14 i t t hat way. Per sonal l y, I don' t t hi nk i t i s necessar y t o have
15 t hemat al l .
16 MR. TORRANCE: Ri ght . Under st ood. I ' mnot sur e what
17 t he pr ocess goi ng f or war d i s. I t hi nk t her e do have t o be some
18 amendment s, as I sai d, t o account f or t he passage of t i me. I
19 don' t know t hat we wer e cont empl at i ng t hat t hi s woul d be an
20 edi t i ng t ype of exer ci se. I f t he Cour t i s aski ng us t o make
21 speci f i c changes or - -
22 THE COURT: I ' mt r yi ng t o per suade wi t h my
23 per suasi veness, t o see i t f r ommy per spect i ve, i s al l . I want
24 you al l t o come up wi t h a st i pul at i on. I t hi nk t hat woul d be
25 bet t er . I ' mj ust poi nt i ng out how I per cei ve t hese t hi ngs t o
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1 be pr obl ems.
2 MR. TORRANCE: Ri ght . What I woul d not e i s t hat
3 account cr i t er i a one and t wo, r eal l y, ar e pr oper l y mandat or y,
4 pr ohi bi t ed by f eder al l aw.
5 THE COURT: Whet her i t i s i n or i t ' s out , i t doesn' t
6 mat t er anyway.
7 MR. TORRANCE: That i s t r ue. I t ' s a t r anspar ency
8 exer ci se.
9 THE COURT: Wel l , i t i s and i t i sn' t . I t doesn' t
10 mat t er , r i ght , because i f i t i s i l l egal , i t i s i l l egal . At t he
11 end of t he day, t he I M or t he OR has t he aut hor i t y t o keep you
12 out . To me, i t doesn' t seemt o make t hi ngs mor e t r anspar ent .
13 That ' s al l .
14 MR. TORRANCE: I under st and.
15 MS. J ONES: Your Honor , wi t h r espect t o t he l anguage
16 you' r e t al ki ng about , we negot i at ed wi t h t he gover nment about
17 t he ent i r e st i pul at i on. I don' t t hi nk t hat we t hought t hat
18 t hese ki nds of ext r a qual i f i cat i ons or pr ohi bi t i ons wer e
19 necessar y. They seemt o be a bi t i n t he weeds f or t hi s ki nd of
20 a document .
21 THE COURT: That ' s what I ' mt hi nki ng.
22 MS. J ONES: However , you don' t al ways get ever yt hi ng
23 you want when you negot i at e a st i pul at i on, so t hey wer e
24 accept abl e t o us and we agr eed t o i t .
25 THE COURT: You wer e j ust as happy wi t h t he exi st i ng
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1 l anguage, or amI mi si nt er pr et i ng you?
2 MS. J ONES: I have t o go back and l ook, but yes, I
3 t hi nk so.
4 I guess, r eal l y, what I woul d l i ke t o ask t he Cour t i s
5 t hi s: I f your Honor i nt ends t o r ul e, i f you know now havi ng
6 hear d t he par t i es, t hat our 5( b) ( 3) pr ovi si on, as cr af t ed, i s
7 unaccept abl e, t hen I assume t hat we woul d r ever t t o t he
8 or i gi nal document f r omJ une 2010. Assumi ng t hat af t er
9 di scussi on wi t h my cl i ent t hat was somet hi ng t hat we r ecogni ze
10 as an i nevi t abi l i t y, we woul d l i ke t o have t he oppor t uni t y
11 t oday t o at l east move f or war d i n a coupl e of ar eas because I
12 don' t know whet her your Honor i s pr oposi ng we go back, t he
13 gover nment and t he uni on, and negot i at e some mor e or , accor di ng
14 t o some of your Honor ' s r eact i ons, make some changes t hat may
15 not be di f f i cul t or maybe.
16 THE COURT: I was hopi ng t hat t hat woul d happen.
17 MS. J ONES: Okay. That sounds t o me l i ke what I am
18 hear i ng f r omyou.
19 What I woul d hope t o do t oday - -
20 THE COURT: I ' mdoi ng i t wi t h a f ul l under st andi ng of
21 why t he vet o, f or exampl e, why peopl e don' t l i ke i t . I r espect
22 t hat posi t i on. I don' t t hi nk, f r ommy poi nt of vi ew, t hi s
23 hel ps even t hat . Ot her wi se, I woul dn' t be f eel i ng so st r ong
24 about i t .
25 MS. J ONES: I under st and, your Honor .
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1 What I was hopi ng t hat we coul d achi eve t oday, t hough,
2 was - - and I t hi nk your Honor has sai d you ar e goi ng t o appr ove
3 our choi ce of a moni t or .
4 THE COURT: I am. I t hought I woul d do t hat by or der .
5 MS. J ONES: That woul d be gr eat .
6 THE COURT: Does hi s t er mst ar t at t he end of
7 Mr . Wal sh' s?
8 MS. J ONES: Or i gi nal l y, yes. I t st ar t ed at t he end of
9 Mr . Wal sh' s. Ther e was, of cour se, t hat t r ansi t i on per i od,
10 whi ch was t o l ast f our mont hs.
11 THE COURT: Ri ght .
12 MS. J ONES: You know, what we bel i eve now i s, yes, i t
13 woul d st ar t at t he end of Mr . Wal sh' s. I t hi nk your Honor has
14 al so r ul ed t oday t hat Mr . Wal sh' s t er mshoul d ext end t o
15 December 31.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MS. J ONES: Under t hat ci r cumst ance, wi t h t hat r ul i ng,
18 t hen Mr . McGor t y' s t er mas i nt er i mmoni t or woul d begi n
19 J anuar y 1.
20 THE COURT: I have no pr obl emwi t h t hat .
21 And you ar e al l comf or t abl e - - hi s t er mi s shor t er
22 t han Mr . Wal sh' s - -
23 MS. J ONES: Yes. I t hi nk Mr . Wal sh hi msel f poi nt ed
24 t hi s out , but when t he uni on ent er ed i nt o t he st i pul at i on and
25 or der , we agr eed t o 18 mont hs f r omt he dat e Mr . McGor t y
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1 st ar t ed. At t he t i me, t hat woul d have been Sept ember 30t h or
2 Oct ober 1st . Mr . McGor t y wi l l not be st ar t i ng now unt i l
3 J anuar y 1. That 18 mont hs f r omt he dat e he st ar t ed i s now
4 15 mont hs. That i s accept abl e t o t he gover nment . I t means t he
5 end dat e f or hi s t er mi s t he same as i t woul d have been, but he
6 i s get t i ng t hr ee mont hs l ess of a t er m.
7 THE COURT: I t coul d be ext ended?
8 MS. J ONES: I t can al ways be ext ended by t he Cour t .
9 THE COURT: I woul d have sai d, sor t of l i ke l aw
10 cl er ks, when t hey' r e gr eat , you want t o keep t hemas l ong as
11 you can so t o speak, so I woul d not have had a pr obl emi f hi s
12 t er mwer e t wo year s, even. That ' s up t o you. I cer t ai nl y
13 woul d go al ong wi t h what ever t er myou do come up wi t h.
14 MS. J ONES: The gover nment and t he Di st r i ct Counci l
15 ar e i n agr eement t hat i t woul d be a 15- mont h t er mst ar t i ng i n
16 J anuar y.
17 THE COURT: That ' s f i ne.
18 MS. J ONES: Real l y, t he Di st r i ct Counci l i s a
19 di f f er ent pl ace now. I t hi nk your Honor r ecogni zes t hat .
20 We' r e not expect i ng t her e t o be any vet o- t ype act i vi t y. We' r e
21 expect i ng t hat wi t hi n mont hs, a f ew mont hs, a coupl e of mont hs,
22 we wi l l have moved t o t he st age wher e t he gover nment wi l l be
23 cont ent , once t hey have r ecei ved an assessment f r omMr . Wal sh
24 and possi bl y t hen Mr . McGor t y, t o go t o t he ki nds of mechani sms
25 t hat wi l l l et us do our own di sci pl i ni ng.
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1 THE COURT: I nt er nal l y.
2 MS. J ONES: I nt er nal l y. Our i dea i s t hat we want t o
3 moni t or our sel ves. That i s what we' r e headi ng t owar ds.
4 THE COURT: I ' mi n f ul l agr eement wi t h t hat .
5 MS. J ONES: I t hi nk at t hi s poi nt maybe t he smar t
6 t hi ng t o do her e i s f or t he par t i es t o t al k f ur t her , me t o t al k
7 t o my cl i ent s, but t o l eave wi t h t he under st andi ng t hat - -
8 wel l , I guess t her e i s one ot her i ssue, whi ch i s i n t he st i p,
9 but per haps your Honor coul d j ust r ul e on i t now, and t hat
10 woul d be we woul d l i ke Mr . McGor t y' s begi nni ng dat e t o come i n
11 f or t r ansi t i on t o be November 1st - -
12 THE COURT: That ' s f i ne.
13 MS. J ONES: - - i f t hat i s agr eeabl e t o your Honor .
14 THE COURT: Why don' t you al l submi t a pr oposed or der ,
15 a ver y shor t one, cover i ng t he t er m- -
16 MS. J ONES: Cover i ng Mr . McGor t y - -
17 THE COURT: What ever you agr ee t o.
18 MS. J ONES: Al l r i ght . Thank you.
19 THE COURT: Yes. Anybody el se want t o be hear d?
20 MR. NEE: Good af t er noon, your Honor .
21 THE COURT: Good af t er noon.
22 THE WI TNESS: Pat r i ck Nee.
23 Mr . Wal sh di d submi t a l i st of t he vet oes he has
24 t aken. I know t hat l i st i s not compl et e because I know he
25 vet oed my appoi nt ment s f or del egat es, whi ch i sn' t on t he l i st ,
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1 and I al so know because I happened t o be st andi ng behi nd t he
2 per son - -
3 THE COURT: Because what ?
4 MR. NEE: I was st andi ng behi nd t he per son when t hey
5 t r i ed t o ent er t he del egat e body. I bel i eve i t was J ohn
6 Gaf f ney. Nei t her of t hose ar e on. I don' t know how many
7 ot her s ar e mi ssi ng. Ther e ar e some t hat ar e suspect ed, peopl e
8 who got el ect ed and suddenl y di dn' t t ake of f i ce, but t hose ar e
9 t wo t hat I know of .
10 THE COURT: Okay. We don' t need t o go back and f or t h.
11 I f t he l i st needs t o be suppl ement ed, I ' msur e Mr . Wal sh - -
12 MR. NEE: I was j ust poi nt i ng t hat out . My case, as
13 you know, you deci ded i t was moot , whi ch I st i l l - -
14 THE COURT: What we don' t want t o do i s t al k about
15 your case because your case has been appeal ed, r i ght , a not i ce
16 of appeal has been f i l ed?
17 THE WI TNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: So we' r e not t al ki ng about your case
19 because i t i s not i n t hi s cour t anymor e. You t al k about i t i n
20 t he Cour t of Appeal s, not her e.
21 Anybody el se?
22 Okay. I t hi nk t hi s i s ver y pr oduct i ve. I mi ght say
23 t hat i f you need t o r each out t o us or have an i nt er medi ar y
24 meet i ng, we woul d be happy t o, you know, meet wi t h you sooner
25 or t al k on t he phone or phone conf er ence or what ever .
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1 MS. J ONES: May I have one mi nut e, J udge, bef or e you
2 l eave?
3 THE COURT: I ' mnot goi ng. I was goi ng t o ask you
4 al so what you t hought about what I had at t he begi nni ng, how I
5 woul d r eal l y bot h enj oy and t hi nk i t woul d be ver y hel pf ul f or
6 me t o meet somehow wi t h t he peopl e who wr ot e t hese af f i davi t s
7 and whoever el se you want and someone f r omt he benef i t f und, t o
8 hear oper at i onal l y wi t hout t her e bei ng any compl ai nt s or
9 what ever , how t hi ngs ar e goi ng, and who t he peopl e ar e who ar e
10 oper at i onal l y r unni ng t he show t o speak.
11 MS. J ONES: That was exact l y what I want ed t o ment i on.
12 The ent i r e l eader shi p of t he Di st r i ct Counci l i s her e,
13 i ncl udi ng J oe Gei ger , of cour se. You j ust hear d t hat he i s
14 r unni ng unopposed r i ght now. He wi l l be t he EST f or t he next
15 t hr ee year s. He al so submi t t ed an af f i davi t , al ong wi t h
16 Mr . Lei ght , Mr . Dani el son, and Mr . Wal ker . We have al most al l
17 t he di r ect or s of t he Di st r i ct Counci l her e. We have t he head
18 of t he busi ness r epr esent at i ve cent er . And we have our
19 di r ect or of communi cat i ons, our chi ef account ant , al l of t hem
20 her e. And your Honor , I t hi nk t hey woul d be eager t o accept
21 your i nvi t at i on t o come i n November t o di scuss t hi ngs i n a l ess
22 f or mal manner .
23 THE COURT: Gr eat . You al l coul d hel p devi se an
24 agenda, who goes f i r st . I woul d j ust l ove t o hear how t hey do
25 t hei r wor k.
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1 MS. J ONES: We woul d be happy t o do t hat . I f your
2 Honor had asked, we woul d have been pr epar ed t o r espond t oday.
3 THE COURT: I knew you woul d be. I ant i ci pat ed t hat
4 t hey woul d be her e, but t hen I t hought l et ' s make t hat
5 separ at e.
6 MS. J ONES: Thank you.
7 MR. WALSH: Your Honor , j ust br i ef l y, I woul d l i ke t he
8 r ecor d t o not e t hat I amhumbl ed and deepl y gr at i f i ed by t he
9 Cour t ' s ver y ki nd r emar ks about my ser vi ce, as wel l as t he ki nd
10 r emar ks of t he gover nment , I t hank you.
11 THE COURT: I t i s not an easy j ob t o have, but I t hi nk
12 you have done i t ver y wel l . Pl easur e t o wor k wi t h you.
13 You wi l l submi t a pr oposed or der f or Mr . McGor t y. Let
14 me gi ve you a suggest ed dat e. We have, as avai l abi l i t y, i f
15 t hese wor k f or you, ei t her Oct ober 30, or act ual l y i t woul d be
16 a l i t t l e bet t er , mor e f l exi bl e t i me- wi se, November 18. The
17 f i r st one i s a Thur sday, t he ot her one i s a Tuesday. So t her e
18 may be oper at i onal r easons why one i s bet t er .
19 MS. J ONES: Your Honor , we had hoped t o have
20 Mr . McGor t y abl e t o come i n and t r ansi t i on November 1.
21 THE COURT: That ' s f i ne. I ' mt al ki ng about - -
22 MS. J ONES: The di scussi ons, I ' msor r y.
23 THE COURT: No, no, t hat i s what I was t al ki ng about ,
24 i f one i s bet t er t han t he ot her . You t el l me.
25 MS. J ONES: I t hi nk November 18t h, your Honor .
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1 THE COURT: At 11. I don' t want t o st op t he uni on i n
2 i t s t r acks f r omr unni ng, but I ' mgoi ng t o l eave t he cal endar
3 open f r om11 af t er .
4 MS. J ONES: I t wi l l be wel l wor t h our whi l e, I am
5 sur e, J udge.
6 THE COURT: Gr eat . We' l l t al k bef or e about a pr oposed
7 agenda - -
8 MS. J ONES: We' l l send an agenda.
9 THE COURT: I t hi nk t hat i s gr eat , ver y hel pf ul ,
10 excel l ent meet i ng, conf er ence, or hear i ng, what ever t hi s i s
11 cal l ed t oday, and I wi l l l ook f or war d t o get t i ng t hat pr oposed
12 or der f or Mr . McGor t y.
13 MR. TORRANCE: I f I may cl ar i f y what t he Cour t expect s
14 us t o do. We wi l l set a pr oposed or der t hat si mpl y set s f or t h
15 t hat Mr . McGor t y i s appoi nt ed as of t he dat e.
16 THE COURT: Mr . McGor t y i s her eby appoi nt ed. I don' t
17 know what you' r e goi ng t o cal l hi mi n t he or der si nce we don' t
18 have an I M at t hi s poi nt .
19 MR. TORRANCE: Ri ght .
20 As f or t he st i pul at i on i t sel f , t hough, as I under st and
21 i t , your Honor i s aski ng us t o go back and di scuss what has
22 come up t oday but has not made a r ul i ng or anyt hi ng on anyt hi ng
23 t hat i s unaccept abl e. I woul d j ust not e - -
24 THE COURT: I haven' t made a r ul i ng, but t her e ar e t wo
25 ar eas t hat I f eel f i r ml y ar e not goi ng i n t he r i ght di r ect i on.
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1 MR. TORRANCE: Under st ood.
2 I t hi nk t he el ect i on t hi ng wi l l pr obabl y be f ai r l y
3 easy t o deal wi t h, and I do t hi nk we wi l l t ake ver y ser i ousl y
4 t he Cour t ' s concer ns.
5 I do want t o not e, t hough, t hat about a week af t er our
6 memor andumof May 27t h, t he Second Ci r cui t deci ded t he SEC v.
7 Ci t i bank case, whi ch set f or t h a new st andar d f or appr ovi ng
8 consent decr ees, whi ch r ecogni zes t hat i t i s per f ect l y
9 appr opr i at e and, i n f act , a good i dea f or t he Cour t t o expr ess
10 concer ns but does set f or t h a def er ent i al st andar d.
11 THE COURT: I woul d say, you know, you get a panel of
12 t hr ee, t hr ee of t he smar t est peopl e you coul d ever i magi ne,
13 each of t hemhas f our l aw cl er ks, so t hat ' s what ever , so I ' m
14 al ways gr at ef ul f or havi ng t he benef i t of al l of t hat wi sdom
15 and i nt el l i gence t o hel p me l ook over my wor k or what ever , but
16 I do f eel st r ongl y about t he poi nt s I was t r yi ng t o make.
17 MR. TORRANCE: Under st ood.
18 I woul d j ust ask t hat when we do submi t , t her e wi l l
19 have t o be a r evi si on, of cour se, t hat t he Cour t wi l l consi der
20 i t under t hat st andar d, whi ch of cour se was not addr essed i n
21 our memor andumof May- -
22 THE COURT: Ar e you suggest i ng t hat I mi ght consi der a
23 st andar d ot her t han t he l egal st andar d t hat appl i es i n t he
24 Second Ci r cui t ?
25 MR. TORRANCE: I ' mmer el y poi nt i ng out a deci si on t hat
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1 post dat es our submi ssi on.
2 THE COURT: I under st and you, and I t hi nk you and
3 Ms. J ones ver y much under st and me.
4 MR. TORRANCE: Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Gr eat . Thanks ver y much. Gr eat t o see
6 you al l .
7 ( Adj our ned)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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25
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