Thesis Females Jazz PDF

Where are the Gi rl s?
A look at the factors that limit female participation in instrumental jazz

Ariel Ann Alexander
January 2011
DMA Jazz Candidate, University of Southern California

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

CHAPTER 1: LITERATURE REVIEW .................................................................................................... 4
THE IMAGE OF JAZZ ..................................................................................................................................... 4
SEX STEREOTYPING OF INSTRUMENTS ........................................................................................................ 7
BEHAVIOR AND SOCIALIZATION .................................................................................................................. 9
CHAPTER 2: RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS ....................................................................... 12
CENTRAL QUESTIONS ................................................................................................................................ 12
PROCEDURES ................................................................................................................................................... 12
SUBJECTS ......................................................................................................................................................... 13
SURVEY DESIGN.............................................................................................................................................. 14
LIMITATIONS.................................................................................................................................................... 14
CHAPTER 3: DISCUSSION AND ANALYSIS........................................................................................... 15
SECTION 1: SCREENING QUESTIONS............................................................................................................... 15
SECTION 2: INTERACTIONS WITH PEERS......................................................................................................... 16
SECTION 3: INTERACTIONS WITH FACULTY ..19
SECTION 4: INTERACTIONS WITHIN THE PROFESSIONAL JAZZ COMMUNITY............................................... 26
CHAPTER 4: TRUMPET HERALD BLOG................................................................................................ 31
CHAPTER 5: CONCLUSIONS...................................................................................................................... 35
SUGGESTIONS FOR EDUCATORS...................................................................................................................... 35
SUGGESTIONS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH........................................................................................................ 37
APPENDIX A: EMAIL TO PARTICIPANTS............................................................................................. 38
APPENDIX B: SURVEY AND RESULTS.................................................................................................... 39
APPENDIX C: TRUMPET HERALD BLOG.............................................................................................. 66
REFERENCES................................................................................................................................................. 100

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Abstract
Although studies have found that females are equally as skilled at jazz
improvisation as their male counterparts, research shows that female instrumentalists are
underrepresented in academic institutions. Therefore, this author has chosen to research
the factors that may deter females from participating in instrumental jazz.
The first part of the authors research will focus on a literature review of the
variables that may limit female participation in jazz. These include the image of jazz,
instrument selection, music preference and behavior and socialization.
The second part of the document will include an original study on gender
discrimination. This qualitative online study will focus on three areas: discrimination by
university faculty, discrimination by university peers and discrimination in the
professional jazz world. Finally, the author will discuss implications of her research for
music educators.

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Literature Review
In a study of 556 junior high and high school musicians at jazz band festivals,
Steinberg (2001) found that only 30% of the participants were females (Steinberg, 2001,
p. v). Similarly, Barber (1999) studied thirty-nine New Jersey high schools and found
that although females made up 48% of the schools bands, they only accounted for 24%
of jazz ensemble membership (Barber, 1990, p. 94). Although we know that females are
participating in instrumental jazz at a lesser rate than males, studies have shown that
females are equally able when it comes to jazz improvisation. Madura (1996) found that
gender demonstrated nonsignificant relationships with achievement in vocal jazz
improvisation (Madura, 1996, p. 264). Similarly, studies by Hores (1977) and Bash
(1984) did not find gender to be significantly correlated with jazz improvisation
achievement (Madura, 1996, p. 265). Wehr-Flowers (2006) states that because research
thus far has failed to find differences in the skills of males and females in the field of jazz
improvisationwe must then look to alternative possibilities for the gender inequality in
the jazz field (Wehr-Flowers, 2006, p.347). This author believes that the main factors
that contribute to lack of female participation in instrumental jazz include the masculine
image of jazz, sexual stereotypes of instruments, the behavioral and social differences
between males and females and sexual discrimination.

The Image of Jazz
Since its inception, the jazz scene has been viewed as a world of men. Jazz history
textbooks tell the story of an exclusive world of male musicians roughing it on the road,
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tearing it up in legendary jam sessions, waxing creative in clubs (Tucker, 1999, p.71).
These masculine stereotypes associated with jazz have likely deterred many females from
participating in instrumental jazz. Dahl (2004) notes the following:
Jazz is full of masculine metaphors, the sense of a fraternity or a male club is
everywhere evokedclearly the qualities needed to get ahead in the jazz world
were held to be masculine prerogatives: aggressive self confidence on the band
stand, displaying ones chops, or sheer blowing power. (Dahl, 2004, pp. ix-x)
Monson also comments that the symbolic intersection of masculinity, music, and race
perhaps explains the persistence of jazz as a fraternity of predominantly male musicians
(Monson, 1995, p. 405). Finally, in a study of teenagers, North, Colley and Hargreaves
(2003) found that gender stereotyping effects were overwhelmingly confined to jazz,
which was also the most sex-typed genre and was perceived as more male (North,
Colley, & Hargreaves, 2003, p. 139).
Another deterrent for women has been the lack of female role models. Throughout
much of the twentieth century, the skills of jazz were often taught and learned in jazz
clubs as opposed to the academic world. The funky and often dangerous playing
atmospheres, nightclubs infested with vice and run by gangsters made it impractical and
unsafe for females to attend late night jam sessions and participate in the jazz community
(Dahl, 2004, p.x). During the early and mid twentieth century, many jazz musicians made
their living by touring with big bands. These bands rarely included female
instrumentalists. Gourse (2000) states that men didn't want women on the bandstands or
in the tour buses. Women could provoke romantic rivalries between band members,
invite problems with men in audiences, and require their own sleeping accommodations
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(Gourse, 2000, p. 1).
Not surprisingly, there are very few females to look to as role models in
instrumental jazz. We know that females in general are largely absent from music
textbooks in general (Koza, 1994). Steinberg notes that most jazz textbooks only
mention women pianists and vocalists (Steinberg, 2001, pp. 16-17). In an interview on
National Public Radio, Beverly Monson and Sally Placksin explained that in early jazz, it
was only acceptable for females to play piano or sing. Monson notes that Nice young
ladies of the nineteenth century played parlor piano and singing in Western culture has
always been coded as a female activity (National Public Radio, para 1). Similarly,
Beverly Placksin explains:
Blowing a horn or making that kind of powerful musical sound was not considered
to be feminine. It was not within the stereotyped view ofwhat was female. The
singers, the pianists, the women were doing things that were considered
acceptable for women, were being coveredbut these other women that were
playing instrumentsdoing roles that were considered non-traditional roles for
women were completely out of the history. They just didnt exist in the pages of
jazz history. (National Public Radio, 2010, para 2)

Research has also shown that female jazz instrumentalists are underrepresented in
the academic world. In the 2003 National Association of Music Education, only 23% of
the teachers who identified jazz as one of their specialties were female (McKeage, 2004,
p.344). This shortage of prominent female figures is problematic because studies have
shown that women are more successful if they are given female role models, especially in
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male-dominated careers. Fisher notes that the quest for role models is about trying to
solve a problemthe problem of how to make a life that is different from our mothers
and perhaps at odds with our contemporaries (as cited in Steinberg, 2001, p. 10).
Similarly, Gould (2000) states that although women chose men as role modelsthese
choices may be simply a matter of necessityWomen performwith greater success
when the role models with whom they interact are women (Gould, 2001, p. 9). Finally,
Tidball (1973) found that females who graduated from womens colleges (and had female
teachers) were about twice as likely to be successful in their careers than those who
attended coeducational colleges (Tidball, 1973, p. 132).
With the masculine stereotypes of jazz combined with the lack of female role
models, young women may simply may not realize that pursuing jazz is an option for
them. However, research indicates that if young girls could identify with female role
models, they would be more likely to pursue jazz.

Sex-Stereotyping of Instruments
In addition to the sexual stereotypes associated with jazz musicians, many studies
have proven that we also associate certain musical instruments with male or female
characteristics. Dahl (2004) notes that the notion that certain musical instruments are
unfeminine appears to be as old as music itself (Dahl, 2004, p.39). Ables and Porter
conducted the landmark study on the sexual stereotyping of instruments in 1978. The
researchers studied adult and child musicians and non-musicians. They found that the
drums, trombone and trumpet were seen as masculine instruments, while the flute and the
violin were perceived as feminine (Ables & Porter, 1978). Ables and Porter also found
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that children are less likely to hold sexual stereotypes about instruments before
elementary school. Finally, they determined that the way in which instruments are
presented to a child heavily influences his or her instrument choice (Ables & Porter,
1978).
Since this 1978 study, more recent researchers have revisited the issue of sexual
stereotyping of instruments. In 1992, Denzell and Leppla recreated the Ables and Porter
study, concluding that instrument positions on the masculine-feminine continuum have
remained relatively stable since the 1978 study (Delzell & Leppla, 1992, p.100).
Similarly, in 1994, Zervoudakes & Tanur sampled six hundred schools to find that there
is no evidence that the proportion female among the people playing "male" instruments
has changed over time (Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994, p. 65). Zervoudakes & Tanur also
found that although more females are participating in college bands and orchestras since
1978, when we take the increased proportion of instrumentalists who are female into
account, the proportion female playing "female" instruments increases over time while
the proportion female among those playing "male" instruments remains the same or
actually decreases (Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994, p. 65).
In a 2006 study, Sinsabaugh researched students who crossed over gender
stereotypes when they selected musical instruments. Sinsabaugh found that for those
students who played a non-typical instrument for their gender, it was important that the
students had music teachers, general teachers, parents, and friends who were supportive
of their instrument selection (Sinsabaugh, 2006, p. 182). Sinsabaugh also noted that the
girl students in the study who crossed over gender stereotypes seemed to enjoy being
different and unique, and liked the attention they received from playing their instruments.
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Their parents were vocal and supportive in helping them feel they could be themselves
(Sinsabaugh, 2006, p. 191).
This author suggests that instrument selection and sexual stereotyping of
instruments has a large influence on female participation in instrumental jazz. Of the
seven typical instruments in a jazz big band, five of these instruments are categorized by
researchers as masculine (Ables & Porter, 1978; Griswold & Chroback, 1981;
Zervoudakes & Tanur, 1994). Unless a band director starts a combo program or
facilitates jazz ensembles made up of non-traditional instruments, it is likely that the
students who do not play masculine instruments simply do not get exposed to jazz in
the educational setting. These students, by default are not given the opportunity to choose
whether or not to pursue jazz. Ables and Porter note, The sex-stereotyping of musical
instruments, therefore, tends to limit the range of musical experiences available to male
and female musicians in several ways, including participation in instrumental ensembles
and selection of vocations in instrumental music (Ables & Porter, 1978, p. 65).

Behavioral and Socialization
The behavioral and social tendencies of females often conflict with the inherent
traits of jazz. Carol Gilligan (1982), found that males and females differ fundamentally in
how they form and develop their identities. While females form their identity based on
connectedness and relationships, males form their identity based on independence and
separation (Gilligan, 1982). Similarly, Madden (2008) notes that females construct their
view of the world around concern for connection, relationships, and responsibility toward
others rather than a concern for autonomy (Madden, 2008, p.33). Researchers have also
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discovered differences in the way men and women identify with music. Christianson and
Peterson (1988) found mens use of music as central and personal and womens as
instrumental and social (Macdonald, Hargreaves, & Miell, 2002, p.125). This female
tendency to define herself based on interaction with others is at odds with the
individualistic essence of jazz improvisation. Ulanov notes that self-identity and self-
expression are some of the most important and defining traits of jazz (Ulanov, 1979).
Similarly, Gennari states that jazz improvisers constantly seek to establish difference- to
distinguish their voice from those of other performers (Gennari, 1991, p.450).
Researchers have also found differences in the way men and women view
motivation and success. Eccles notes:
Women have lower expectations for their success, are less confident in their
achievement-related abilities, are more likely to attribute their failures to lack of
ability, are less likely to attribute their success to ability, and are more likely to
exhibit a learned helpless response to failure. (Eccles, 1987, pp.165-166)
Another factor that may deter females from pursuing jazz is the competitive, head
to head, nature of this art. Many common practices in jazz, such as cutting contests and
trading fours, are based around not only competition, but actually dominating the
bandstand in such a way as to make others back off (Rutkoff & Scott, 1996, p.94). This
emphasis on competition conflicts with female behavior. Eccles (1987) writes that
Femalesappear to find [competitive] environments less motivating than males. In
addition, some females appear to find such environments aversive, leading them to learn
less in such classrooms and perhaps to avoid situations and environments that they
anticipate as being competitive in the future (Eccles, 1987, p.159). Horner (1972) also
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found that women showed a great amount of anxiety about competitive environments,
stating that success in competitive achievement activity, especially against men,
produced anticipation of certain negative consequences, for example, threat of social
rejection and loss of femininity (Horner, 1972, p. 125).
A final factor that may impact the motivation of females as opposed to males is that
females are less likely to see pursuing or studying jazz on having an impact on their
future. In a 2004 study, Mckeage found that women did not see a connection between
playing in jazz ensemble and their success or opportunities in the future. She also found
that women ranked my future in music does not include jazz as the main reason that
they chose to quit jazz ensemble (McKeage, 2004, p.353).
It is no surprise that these various behavioral traits prohibit many females from
playing jazz. Wehr-Flowers (2006) found that while males foresee more positive
consequences from success in jazz improvisation, females are significantly less
confident, more anxious, and have less self-efficacy (attitude) towards learning jazz
improvisation (Wehr-Flowers, 2006, 345-346).

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Research Design and Methods

Central Questions
This author chose to conduct an original study to discover if sexual discrimination
is one of the factors limiting female participation in jazz. This author was not able to find
any previous studies that investigated sexual discrimination in either the academic or
professional jazz worlds.

Procedure
This qualitative research study was conducted over the internet. By conducting
the study online, this author believed that she could obtain many results in a short period
of time. The online research method also allowed study participants to remain
anonymous. Because of the sensitive nature of the study, this author believed that more
females would choose to participate in the study if their identities were unknown, even to
this author. The study was created through the online survey tool, Survey Monkey
(www.SurveyMonkey.com), and responses were collected for seven days.
Participants for the survey were recruited via electronic communication. The
author asked for participation in three main ways:
1. Direct emails sent to female jazz instrumentalists with whom she had had
prior contact. A copy of this email can be found in Appendix A.
2. Emails sent to Jazz Department heads at over seventy universities.
Universities were selected from the Jazz Education section of the
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Thelonious Monk Institutes online Jazz Resource Library.
http://www.jazzinamerica.org/JazzResources/JazzEducation/College
3. Message boards and email lists for several female jazz organizations and
ensembles, including IAJE Sisters in Jazz, DIVA Jazz Orchestra and Maiden
Voyage Orchestra.
Participants were asked to visit the following website to complete the online survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/femalejazz

Subjects
In order to qualify to take the online survey, subjects were asked to fulfill three
qualifications.
1. They were female
2. They were an instrumentalist
3. They had been a jazz major or minor at a university within the last eight (8) years

Out of the subjects (n=155) that took the online survey, (n=17) were not able to continue
the study because they indicated that they not female, (n=5) were not able to continue
because they indicated that they were not instrumentalists and (n=24) were not able to
continue because they indicated that they had not been a jazz major or minor at a
university in the last eight years.

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Survey Design
The survey was divided into four main sections:
Section 1: Introduction, screening questions and definitions
Section 2: Interactions with peers
Section 3: Interactions with faculty members
Section 4: Interactions with members of the jazz community

Each survey question had a Yes/No answer choice. In sections two, three and four,
subjects were given the option to elaborate on their answers via the write-in section. A
copy of the entire survey can be found in Appendix B.

Limitations
There are substantial limitations to this study because the research did not focus
on a random sample of participants. Several factors may have contributed to sample bias.
Firstly, the author did not restrict access to the online survey. Therefore, it is possible that
some of the participants that completed the survey did not fulfill the three qualifications
listed above. Moreover, it is also possible that the specific participants who completed the
survey, especially the written section, were those who were especially interested in
sharing their experiences. It is also possible that those females with more positive
experiences were less likely to have completed the survey. Furthermore, some of the
responses may be fictitious or exaggerated. Finally, this author stopped the study after
seven days, which lead to an arbitrary number of participants. It is important that this
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study be viewed as a qualitative, not quantitative research project. Finally, the data
collected should not be used to draw conclusions about all female jazz instrumentalists.

Results and Analysis
Note that spelling and grammatical errors in participants written responses have not been
edited.

Section 1: Screening Questions
Question 1: Are you a female?
One hundred fifty-five participants chose to answer this question. Out of these
participants, 89% (n=138) answered yes, and 11% (n=17) answered no.

Question 2: Are you an instrumentalist?
participants, 96.8% (n=150) answered yes, and 3.2% (n=5) answered no.

Question 3: Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate
OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in
the last eight (8) years?
participants, 84.5% (n=131) answered yes, and 15.5% (n=24) answered no.

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NOTE: Participants who answered no on one or more of the previous three
questions were not allowed to continue the survey.

Section 2: Interactions with Peers

Question 4: Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from
other jazz majors or minors at your university?
Ninety-eight (98) participants chose to answer this question. Out of these
participants, 35.7% (n=35) answered yes, and 64.3% (n=63) answered no. Thirty-
four (34) participants chose to describe the nature of the discrimination via the write-in
section.
Of the thirty-four written responses, the discrimination reported by study
participants fell into two main categories: sexual harassment and exclusion from peer
groups.
Many of the participants reported sexual harassment from their peers. One
participant noted, fellow jazz majors..made me feel uncomfortable by making gestures
that implied something sexual being done to my body parts. Another respondent
recalled: in one ensemble in particular, I often received inappropriate remarks regarding
my clothing and general appearance. There was always some sort of insinuation that I
was doing something sexual if I happened to be late or had to leave early. A third
participant reported that her peers often made sexually tinged requests and degrading
jokes about women women bands, or female band leaders. Several respondent
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believed that peers were more interested in them sexually then musically. One female
described her peers as concerned with trying to hit on me or sleep with me, and another
noted, it seemed clear that my peers were more interested in me sexually than in playing
music with me.
Many study participants also wrote about being excluded from their peer
groups. Several respondents described being ignored and blown off by most of the
department. Other participants remarked that socially it has been more difficult to hang
out with other jazz majors and I feel like there is an exclusive boys club mentality that
is hard to escape. Several other participants wrote that they were often excluded from
after school musical activities in which their male colleagues took part. One participant
noted, the discrimination I felt was being excluded from jam sessions and musical hang
sessions. The feeling was that guys wanted to hang out with each other, and having a girl
around killed the vibe. Another respondent described being treated as an afterthought
as opposed to being the first one to be thought of for gigs, jam sessions, etc. because I
might not fit into the groups vibe. Finally, one female noted, I was not part of the boys
club, so my peer group was weaker and I did not benefit as much from jam sessions or
practice sessions initiated by other students. It is clear that the females who chose to
answer the write-in section of this questionnaire felt as though their gender greatly
limited them from participating in many musical opportunities in which their male
colleagues took part.

Question 5: Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration?
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NOTE: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on
question four.

Thirty-six (36) participants answered this question. Out of these participants,
13.9% (n=5) answered yes, and 86.1% (n=31) answered no. Seven (7) participants
chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section.
Five participants wrote that they reported sexual discrimination to faculty or
administration at their university. However, three of these five participants noted that by
reporting the incident, they only escalated the discrimination. One participant wrote, the
male faculty I spoke to about the instance told other faculty and made the case even
worse that what it was in the beginning. Another noted that after reporting the incidence,
guys still told dirty jokes as well as the head of the department. A third respondent
described, I reported the incidentsto the dean and after that the ombudsmen of the
school was involved but nothing was ever truly done.

Question 6: Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be
involved in school-related activities?
Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied YES on
question one.

30.6% (n=11) answered yes, and 69.4% (n=25) answered no. Twenty-one (21)
participants chose to elaborate on their answer via the write-in section.
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Several of the participants reported that peer discrimination heavily limited their
participation in school related activities. One participant noted, I became increasingly
turned off to the jazz world as a whole. Another female wrote, everything from
rehearsals and jam sessions to concerts [was] slightly uncomfortable. Other participants
noted that discrimination caused them to go to jazz hangs a whole lot less often, lose
gigs and discouraged [them] from going to jam sessions. Many other participants,
however, showed an admirable sense of resilience. One participant noted, [the
discrimination] made me want to do the opposite and create a scene where kick ass
female musicians are dominating, and another stated in the end it makes me want to
prove myself a little more. One female noted if anything it only motivates me to keep
joining the gentlemans clubs of the music scene at the university, and another recalled
I wanted to experience as much as I could. If I didnt get in a certain group, I made my
own.

Section 3: Interactions with Faculty Members

Question 7: Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from
faculty members at your university?

Ninety-six (96) participants answered this question. Out of these participants,
40.6% (n=39) answered yes, and 59.4% (n=57) answered no. Thirty-six (36)
Many of the participants believed that their gender kept them from being taken
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seriously by faculty members. One participant noted:
Older faculty members condescended to me in a way that Im sure they wouldnt
to a guy my age. The most recent instance happened at a recent audition- I walked
in and and older guy asked me what I played. I said piano, and he said, Well, good
for you! in a tone that would have been more appropriate for someone maybe 12
[years old].
Similarly, another participant recalled that several private instructors have talked to my
like Im a ten year old. This is how we play jazz little girl. Other respondents noted, I
felt that some faculty members simply expected less of me and therefore didn't try to
engage with me as much as my peers who were male, I had a teacher tell methat he
didnt know how to teach me because I had feminine energy, and I could not find a
teacher that took me seriously and demanded from me what he might a male student.
Finally, several participants wrote about being denied opportunities offered to their male
peers. One participant wrote, I do sometimes get the sense that certain male faculty
members are not as willing to start a close mentor-student relationship with me because I
am a female, and another recalled:
A certain faculty member gave a younger male classmate of mine all kinds of
outside opportunities that I would have loved to have a chance to experience and
learn from and get paid for. Since I was more advanced as a player, I wondered
about this so I finally asked the faculty member about it and he said that the other
student needed this experience in preparation for his career.
Over fifteen of the participants wrote that their professors made inappropriate
sexual jokes and innuendos. One participant wrote, he had a habit of making sexual
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jokesI am not the first female that he has discriminated against- I know of two other
females that have shared similar stories. Another wrote: With my majors professor, it
was instances of him including inappropriate references to female body parts or sexual
activities; such as blowing your vagina off or she must have given him a really good
blow job (in the topic of conversation why a soloist was chosen). Several participants
wrote about being alienated in front of their classmates. One participant noted that her
professor made an offhand jokesaying my composition was not so organized because
I am female, and another recalled:
On the first day of class my jazz composition teacher pointed at me (the only
female in the room), asked me my major (jazz voice performance), and stated
unequivocally that I was going to have difficulty in this class because vocalists
don't know how to write. He did not bother to consider that not only was I a multi-
instrumentalist.
Another female noted, one teacher would insinuate that I was dating various members
of the class. A final participant wrote, a tenured faculty membersaid during a big
band rehearsalthat women didnt have the bravado necessary to take impassioned
solos or to be lead trumpet players.
Several participants noted that their professors made inappropriate comments
about their appearance and clothing. Im a pianist, and a teacher once advised me to take
up singing because people like to see a nice looking girl sing and play piano. Another
wrote, my trombone teacher told me I should be a model, and a singer. Others
comments included: A faculty member told me to wear something shiny with bra straps
showing to a gig with a school combo and many jazz professors make sexist jokes and
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remarks, such as talking about putting me on stage in fishnets and stilettos. Finally, one
participant remarked that in my improvisation final, my teacher told me not to be afraid
to dress more femininely."
Several participants reported that faculty members treated them more as dates
and less as students. One participant wrote, a faculty member asked me to close the
door to his office so we could talk, then cracked open a bottle of wine and offered me
some. Others said that professors would offer to have lessons at their place of
residence and one professor insisted on going to dinner in place of a lesson and
regularly made inappropriate innuendos. Finally one participant recalled that she
was hired as secretarial assistant to a jazz professor based on looks and gender
alone. He took me out to an expensive dinner as a "job interview," buying me lots
of alcohol.
Several of the participants reported verbal and physical sexual advances from Jazz
Studies faculty members at their university. They described multiple verbal advances
from a faculty member, inappropriate physical contact from an instructor, and
advancesfrom private instructors on numerous occasionsat least three different
teachers. One participant recalled that a faculty member told me I had sexy legs, among
many other sexual comments. Others noted: I heard a faculty member whistle as I
walked down the hall from my practice room, I was told by a teacher to do my
homework or I would get a spanking, and I was asked for a kissin exchange for the
use of rehearsal space. Participants also reported physical advances. One participant
recalled: One faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage
with oils during an ensemble. Finally, one respondent wrote:
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I had a private lesson teacher who used to hit on me all the time. The first few
lessons went by without a hitch, then he started in. First how pretty I was, and just
small things here and there. By the end of the semester he was actually telling me
he wanted to have sex with me in every lesson.

Question 8: Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or to the
administration?
Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on
question seven.

Thirty-seven (37) participants answered this question. Out of these participants,
24.3% (n=9) answered yes, and 75.7% (n=28) answered no. Ten (10) participants
Two of the participants wrote that they were afraid to report the discrimination.
One participant noted, I could not risk this person ruining my chances in other classes. I
sincerely wanted and need to succeed in my studies and I felt that reporting it might be
detrimental to my future relations with other teachers and perhaps my peers. Another
participant explained, I knew that reporting these incidences would ostracize me even
more from the department. The whole department is a mens club and reporting one of
them would make the rest of them hate me.
Two of the participants reported that the offending faculty member was fired.
However, one of the participants noted: The teacher was fired. However - not without a
debacle, about how they were going to have use my name in a meeting with him to
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explain who had filed a complaint. I expressed extreme concern over this - cause this guy
seemed like he might fly off the handle to me.
Finally, several of the participants reported that after reporting the discrimination to
other faculty members, they were not happy with the results. One participant wrote:
I reported when one faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a
massage with oils during an ensemble. I ended up going straight to the Chair of the
Music Department (she was female). She understood, but ended up telling the
Program Coordinator (who was male), who made me tell him about it (I didn't feel
comfortable talking to him about it in the first place which is why I went to the
Chair), and then he talked to the faculty member about it directly (which is also
what I specifically asked him not to do, because then he knew I complained about
him to administration). The accused faculty member ran for Department Head and
didn't get it. Essentially he was not reprimanded, and I was embarrassed further.
Many male students in the department heard about this and were annoyed that I
might have messed with his election for department head.
Another participant wrote:
It turned out that the faculty who tried to massage my shoulders was known to all
female students in the program as being inappropriate. Almost all of the female
students had reported to the head of the program, but we were very disappointed
to find out that nothing was done to keep him from becoming a tenure at the
school.

25
Question 9: Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain
classes, combos, private teachers, ensembles, etc.?
Note: Participants were only asked to answer this question if they replied yes on
question seven.

52.8% (n=19) answered yes, and 47.2% (n=17) answered no. Twenty-five (25)
In the written section, many of the participants noted that they avoided certain
professors for private lessons. Participants wrote: I wouldnt want to be stuck in a room
alone with creepy guy, I chose not to study with the teacher who had been
discriminating, and I switched teachers after several inappropriate comments. One
participant wrote: Since I have refused to have these lessons at their places of residence,
they have thus refused to teach me.
Many of the respondents also wrote about avoiding certain classes and ensembles.
One female explained: I was determined not to take another class from this teacher, so I
appealed to my advisor to "pass out" of the next requirement taught by him. Two
participants wrote about avoiding ensembles. One noted I have no control over whether
he is my combo teacher or not, but I try to avoid him because he makes me very
uncomfortable and nervous
Finally, two participants noted that the discrimination caused them to change
schools. One described: I was advised not to take certain classes because some of the
faculty members were rumored to say inappropriate things about their female students.
26
Other faculty members openly preferred not have female students. I eventually
transferred universities.

Section 4: Interaction with Colleagues in the Professional Jazz World

Question 10: Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the
professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?

Ninety participants (90) answered this question. Out of these participants, 56.7%
(n=51) answered yes, and 43.3% (n=39) answered no. Forty-nine (49) participants
Many of the females wrote that in the professional jazz world, their appearance is
often stressed over their musical ability. Several respondents described being hired
simply for their looks. One participant notes that she got a gig with another female
musician and was hired without them hearing how we played. Was told basically that we
had the right look. Other respondents described being hired because I am a female and
they wanted me in a dress, overt comments such as just stand there and look pretty
and being requested to 'make sure you dress sexy.' Other participants noted that
audience and band members often focus on their appearance rather then their playing.
One respondent wrote that people are much more likely to comment on how I look
playing, rather than how I sound.
Over fifteen of the respondents described discrimination at jam sessions. One
participant recalled: There was one time at the Smoke jam session I was on the list to sit
27
in and play, and I felt like it had been over and hour and other guys had gone up more
than once to play. Others comments include: at jam sessions, when people don't know
me (before they hear me play), they tend to treat me like I can't play, at jam sessions,
I've heard people whisper "is she good?" before deciding which tune I should play, I
have frequently been put on hold and then asked to play with the weakest, least
experienced musicians in the room and when I go on stage at a session in a city where
Im unknown, people are looking at me as if they cant believe that I can play and ask me
"is a blues in F ok for you?" Finally, one respondent wrote: I guess anything goes at jam
sessions. I've had people be outright offensive to me as in sit down little girl you can't
handle this.
Many of the participants explained that their fellow band mates do not take them
seriously. Comments include: it does seem like I'm not taken seriously at the beginning
of a gig, like people sort of look at me like who's she, when I meet people they
immediately think I can't play anything and kind of laugh in my face, and on several
occasions people have discounted my ability (assumed I couldnt play). Other
participants describe being discounted by audience members. One participant wrote the
audience often makes me feel very uncomfortable. I feel that I get some extra looks and
well... lets see what SHE has to offer. Several respondents also remarked that they are
often mistaken for vocalists based on their gender. One participant described: Often
times I will introduce myself & tell them I'm a pianist. Their follow up
question is usually, "classical?" ...assumption number 1. When I introduce myself
as a musician or as a jazz musician to anyone, first question "are you a singer?"
and even sometimes, how come you don't sing? Another respondent wrote that
28
musicians will often ask what are you going to sing tonight? and i'm like no, I play
piano."
Many participants described the reactions of fellow musicians and audience
members after hearing them play. Some comments include: I've noticed that most
people stare in amazement, simply because they've never seen such a small woman play
such a large instrument and Im confronted often by men that are astonished that
women "can" play jazz. Many of the participants reported comments from audience
members and other musicians such as "I didn't expect you to have such a big sound, it
was so surprising to hear such aggressive playing based on your looks, and you sound
like a 40-year-old, huge black guy." Many of the respondents also remarked that they
have been told that they play well for a girl. One female wrote: I hate hearing, "you
play great for a girl!" or "I wasn't expecting that out of you!!" Another wrote, every time
I step in to play a tune in front of a bunch of strangers, the expectations are so low that
people come to congratulate me with that look you play so nice for a girl! A final
participant wrote "she's a girl BUT... comes up often.
Finally, several of the participants reported that they had been sexually harassed
at gigs. One describes: sexual harassment, groping, unnecessary contact, insulting
phrases, etc. Another wrote:
Working on a cruise ship, I encountered sexual harassment from a bandleader and
sound engineer. This included sexual comments on a daily basis and unwanted
attention. I felt that as the only female in the group, I had to put up with the
attention and be a good sport about it.

29

Question 11: Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your
participation in the jazz community?

Fifty-two (52) participants answered this question. Out of these participants,
48.1% (n=25) answered yes, and 51.9% (n=27) answered no. Thirty-three (33)
Many of the participants described that the discrimination in the professional jazz
world has limited their involvement in the community. One participant wrote,
Sometimes I dread going out, not knowing what will be said, what advances will be
made. Many women wrote about avoiding jam sessions. Some responses included: I
rarely go to jam sessions because of the negative behavior I have experienced at them, I
avoid jam sessions all together. Generally, I feel ostracized from the jazz community
which is a man's world in which I clearly don't fit in, Yes, part of the reason why I
stopped going to jam sessions is because of this, and I think I would be more interested
in participating in jam sessions and soliciting gigs if I didn't have to constantly overcome
the expectation either that I'm a vocalist or a beginner. Other participants believed that
they are often overlooked for paying gigs because of their gender. One participant wrote,
if they are more likely to choose a male counterpart, then what's the point? Other
participants explained: I see that guys tend to pick other guys to play drums with more
often than me, and even if I'm good, they still pick someone else to play with them. I
think it has to do with me being female.
Several of the respondents also showed an admirable sense of resilience. One
30
participant wrote, The very real imbalance of numbers of male versus female musicians
has however been a HUGE motivation for me, I'm determined to help prove that girls can
play and write music just as well as guys. Another participant responded, as tough as it
is sometimes I just keep pushing. I'll never let the fact that I'm a girl stop me from doing
what I want to do.
Finally, a several participants spoke of positive experiences in the jazz community.
Some responses include: Usually we have a mutual respect for each other, and
the vast majority of the jazz community has my back and will call other people out when
those comments come up.
31
Trumpet Herald Blog
One unexpected consequence of this research project was a series of comments,
directed at this author, posted on the trumpet blog, Trumpet Herald
(www.TrumpetHerald.com). One of the blog members posted the following information:

Dear Friends and Colleagues,
As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting
an online survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.

I'm hoping you can do me a favor by forwarding this email on to any female jazz
instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community
college within the last eight years.

The link for the online survey is:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/femalejazz

Thanks very much,

ARIEL ALEXANDER

Following the above post, several bloggers published posts berating this author and
her research. The first response to the original post is as follows:
By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz
college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender
discrimination in instrumental jazz?

Another blogger wrote:

Aren't you ashamed to declare yourself a "doctoral student" while submitting this
simplistic drivel to the worldwide trumpeting community? I sure would be. When
32
my brother was getting his "doctoral" degree in pharmacology, he had to design
experiments testing the effects of various drugs on the brain receptors of epilepsy
patients which involved dozens of staff and hundreds of experimental animals.
Now that he teaches in a medical school, his students, who are learning to be
medical "doctors" must learn to deliver babies and do brain surgery. At M.I.T. and
other such institutions, "doctoral" students are plotting the architecture of the
human genome. And here you are, passing around a politically correct survey that
could have been designed by a high school student in her political science class.
How pathetic. C'mon baby. You and your stuffy professors should get over
yourselves and stop trying so hard to be "relevant."

Posts by other bloggers include the following:

The only discriminating I ever see is based on how you play. Play your ass off,
good things happen.

Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors
should have already pointed this out to you. Go back to the drawing board. Or
better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-earned money during this
time of financial hardship.

Yeah, but WHO CARES! I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the
fishing lure business, the basket weaving business and the pet grooming business.
Boo-hoo!

33
Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohorts
their gender has ever enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous
state of our nation at present. So please--consider getting a real job.

This kind of research resembles something drawn up in the 80's to develop the
employee manuals so many of us sign and sigh over

Several of the bloggers stated that female musicians often capitalize on their
appearance in order to obtain gigs and popularity. Their posts included the following:

I wonder how popular Diana Krall would be if it she wasn't female.

Since female artists NEVER capitalize on their attractiveness

Pretty girl with a great body (who clearly utilizes it to her advantage), BUT....only
marginally good technique, NOOOOO soul and can't improvise... Still on the gig.

Finally, a few of the bloggers did defend this author and her research project. Their
posts include the following:
I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a
reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of
gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in
the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.

34
I hope Ariel doesn't abandon her efforts on our account.

You may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But,
there's no reason to berate her as you have.

Comments
Ironically, the hostile blog responses show the great need for research in the area of
gender discrimination in instrumental jazz. This irony was keenly noted by one blogger,
who wrote:
Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about
the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to
this thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive
and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.

35
Suggestions for Educators
In the last thirty years, jazz has made remarkable inroads in the academic
world (Lutz, 1982, p.53). Because jazz is now viewed as an important part of music
curricula, then educators must strive to make it equally accessible to both males and
females. A number of factors are working against the participation of females in jazz
activities: the masculine image of jazz, sexual stereotypes of instruments, gender
discrimination and the general behavioral tendencies of females. Although educators
cannot re-write jazz history, they can certainly work to break some of the barriers that
stand between females and pursing instrumental jazz.
Perhaps the most important step that music educators can take is to be more
cautious when presenting instruments to young children. Ables and Porter found that
when teachers presented more masculine instruments by showing a picture of a female
playing these instruments, the female students were more likely to choose these
instruments to play (Ables & Porter, 1978).
Many historians stress that jazz is an integral part of American culture (Levine,
1999, p.6). General educators can also make an effort to include female examples in their
discussion of jazz history. When arranging for school performances or field trips,
educators can choose opportunities to see females playing both masculine and feminine
instruments, in a variety of musical settings including jazz.
Sigmund Freud found that in puberty, females develop like a scar, a sense of
inferiority (as cited in Gilligan, 1993, p.11). Research has already proven that
improvisation is an important addition to early music education (Azara, 1993). It is likely
that females would be more interested in jazz if improvisation was included in music
36
curricula before adolescence.
It is important that music educators make jazz accessible to all instrumentalists,
including non-traditional jazz instrumentalists. Music educators can work to expose all
students to jazz by forming non-traditional ensembles such as jazz flute choir or jazz
string ensemble.
1
In addition, some newly developed jazz curricula such as Hal
Leonards Combo Paks
2
and Jamey Aebersolds
3
play-along series can be used by all
instrumentalists. Finally, because females thrive in group settings, educators should work
to incorporate more group improvisation into these ensembles.
Finally, it is necessary that sexual discrimination in the academic environment be
stopped immediately. The above study leads this author to believe that many educators
are not aware of, or do not abide by, their universitys sexual harassment policy. Title IX
of the Educational Amendments of 1972 Prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in
education programs and activities receiving Federal financial assistance (US Department
of Education, para. 3). According to federal law, all colleges and universities have an
obligation under Title IX to prevent and address harassment against students, whether
perpetrated by peers or by employees of the school system (Title IX Info, para. 2). It is
clear from this authors original research that many educators are not even meeting the
minimal obligation of the law to treat students equally. Moreover, when sexual
discrimination is brought to their attention, many educators are failing to take the
necessary steps to address this discrimination and prevent further incidents.

1
Although the International Association of Jazz Educators is now defunct, past IAJE
Journals would be a terrific source for information on jazz string curricula.
2
See www.HalLeonard.com
37
Suggestions for Further Research
There exists little published research on intervention programs, such as the IAJE
Sisters in Jazz Program. In addition, researchers have yet to examine the effects of all-
female jazz bands such as Maiden Voyage and Diva. Future researchers may consider the
improvisational differences of males and females and investigate the correlation between
gender and compositional approach.
Research shows that programs such as Operation SMART Science Programs and
EQUALS (for math) have been very successful in motivating and empowering females
(AAUW, 1995). Perhaps music educators can investigate the implementation of similar
programs in the field of jazz.
This author plans to complete another similar research project using a random
sample of participants. This second study would give thce author a more accurate picture
of the discrimination that females experience in both the academic and professional jazz
worlds.

38
APPENDIX A: EMAIL SENT TO EDUCATORS

Hello Friends and Colleagues!

As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I'm conducting a
survey on gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.

I am hoping you can take a few minutes to complete this online survey. Your responses
will be absolutely anonymous.

I would also MUCH appreciate if you can forward this link on to other female jazz
instrumentalists that have been jazz majors or minors at a university or community
college within the last eight years.

The link for the survey is:

Thank you so much for your time and your honesty.

Sincerely,
ARIEL ALEXANDER
1 of 26
Gender Discrimination in Instrumental Jazz
1. Are you a female?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 89.0% 138
No 11.0% 17
answered question 155
skipped question 2
2. Are you an instrumentalist?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 96.8% 150
NO 3.2% 5
skipped question 2
3. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate
OR graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in
the last eight (8) years?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 84.5% 131
NO 15.5% 24
skipped question 2
2 of 26
4. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination
from other jazz majors or minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS
ONLY-- questions about faculty members will be later in survey)

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 35.7% 35
NO 64.3% 63
Please explain the nature of the discrimination. This may include multiple instances.

34
skipped question 59
5. Did you report any of these instances to faculty or administration?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 13.9% 5
NO 86.1% 31
If yes, please explain the outcome or resolution

7
skipped question 121
3 of 26
6. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be
involved in school-related activities?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 30.6% 11
NO 69.4% 25
Please explain

21
7. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination
from faculty members at your university?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 40.6% 39
NO 59.4% 57

36
skipped question 61
4 of 26
8. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the
administration?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 24.3% 9
NO 75.7% 28

10
9. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain
classes, combos, private teachers, advisors, etc.?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 52.8% 19
NO 47.2% 17
Please explain

25
5 of 26
10. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the
professional jazz world (gigs, jam sessions)?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 56.7% 51
NO 43.3% 39

49
skipped question 67
11. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your
participation in the jazz community?

Response
Percent
Response
Count
YES 48.1% 25
NO 51.9% 27
Please explain

33
1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other
1 It was never super obvious, but there was always this fierce feeling of competition
from some, like, "there's NO way a girl is going to be better than ME". One guy
actually SAID that, he said to me our freshman year "I don't know what I'll do if
girl is better than me"...it was really weird. The rest of it was all very subtle, just a
matter of being ignored and blown off by most of the department. Even when I
changed to a differerent school, still for jazz, it was better, but about a third of the
students there pretty much acted like I didnt even exist.
Sep 12, 2010 11:16 AM
6 of 26
2 It's hard to describe the discrimination. It is more of a feeling that you are always
speaking out of turn, so you better shut up. But I remember a couple times that
were particularly difficult:
-I was coming into the middle of a rehearsal to sub for another sax player, and he
said "She's here to relieve me." The keyboard player said "Right here? We're
rehearsing!" Or something of the sort. Everybody laughed. I felt like shit and it
struck so fast, I couldn't even answer.
-We were playing a school gig and one of the other students had one of those free
newspapers with the ads for hookers in the back. That being bad enough, I still
tried to make conversation about it with one of my fellow students. I don't
remember what I said, but he said something like "I could get a couple brunettes
like you to suck my dick for $300 bucks." It was gross.
Granted, these two guys were assholes to everyone across the board. But here
are some things that happened to me with the nicest of classmates:
-In an improv class where I played a nice solo, the other students agreed that it
was nice cause it was "feminine".
-When sharing some worries with another classmate (about not being able to
make it as a jazz musician) he said that I shouldn't worry so much, because I'm a
girl anyway.
Sep 12, 2010 4:00 PM
3 My drum professor at my masters program was not in favor of women or
minorities. I was his first female drum student and every lesson etc was a very
difficult environment to learn in. He was not helpful in my weaknesses so I had to
seek outside assistance. The discrimination became so badd that we had an
argument that resulted in me getting kicked out of his studio. His disrespect
became words of verbal abuse and he called me a flake. Soon after I won the
sisters in jazz award which place me as the top female drummer in the world and
he could not take credt for any of it.
Sep 12, 2010 4:08 PM
4 I have never experienced overt discrimination, but have had a few instances
where older faculty members condescend to me in a way that I'm sure they
wouldn't to a guy my age. The most recent instance happened at a recent audition
- I walked in and an older guy (older than 60, perhaps near his 70s) asked me
what I played. I said piano, and he said, "Well, good for you!" in a tone that would
have been more appropriate for someone maybe 12 years old or younger. I've
probably experienced a handful of instances like that.
Sep 12, 2010 8:34 PM
5 I have been in 2 university jazz departments. One professor insisted on going to
dinner in place of a lesson and regularly made inappropriate innuendos. In
general, other professors have been very supportive and professional. I have had
several issues with students or alumni making advances or expecting me to
dress/act in a flirtations way. I am not easily offended but it's rather frustrating to
be objectified. Since starting school in 2000, I have noticed a big improvement in
how women are treated, at least in my world.
Sep 12, 2010 9:19 PM
6 I attended a different university for my freshman year studying jazz. At that
university, the man in charge of all the ensembles and also the leader of the top
band that I was performing in would NOT have me solo at all. He always told me I
wasn't ready, but he would let everyone else solo or take the lead in the jazz
band. I was the only female in the jazz band at that time. He had a habit of making
sexual "jokes" that were not appropriate. He also made racial, ethnic and religious
remarks that were not welcomed by our ensemble. I am not the first female that
he has discriminated against- I know of two other females that have share similar
stories.
Sep 13, 2010 12:37 AM
7 of 26
7 when I first got here a few of my male colleges my age used to tease me and
make underhanded sly remarks, that when quoted directly would not seem
offensive, but in context are passive aggressive and indicative that they thought
they were better than me. However I've been here for three years now and I don't
interact with those guys anymore and have made friends and trust people who
don't discriminate based on gender, and just listen to my playing
Sep 13, 2010 2:16 AM
8 It's usually very extroverted, and supposedly to be taken as a joke but at the same
time, there is still that instance of sexual discrimination. It usually includes
remarks of belittlement or teasing which distinctively specifics gender, or the idea
that a girl is doing what a man could be doing in the same spot in the band.
Sexually tinged requests are also included in this idea of teasing, such as asking
the female member of the band to dress provocatively or to "dance" as they solo.
Sexual discrimination also includes the idea that since she is a female, there is a
choice whether or not she can join the conversation depending on the topic at
hand.
Sep 13, 2010 2:18 PM
9 Yes, there were a couple fellow students that were always judging me. Sep 13, 2010 3:29 PM
10 a peer said "you got that gig because you're a girl." Sep 13, 2010 5:21 PM
11 I was the top jazz drummer at Shenandoah University, so I guess they were
intimidated by me, ha! The only thing they would do different was help me move
my drums. People wouldn't help the guys move their drums.
Sep 13, 2010 5:38 PM
12 several instances of my male peers (who i was placed above in auditions for
groups) chosen for small groups
Sep 13, 2010 6:03 PM
13 Making a move on me while on a trip with the big band to a jazz festival. Sep 13, 2010 6:27 PM
14 some people (also teachers) made degrading jokes about women.
the male fellow students have been joking on "women bands" or female band
leader, because they think they are not competent, but selling their "female
looking" or so... and they use a lot of degrading words.
Sep 14, 2010 7:12 PM
15 A common instance is one that many males are not aware of, and it includes
remarks disguised as compliments, such as "wow, you sound like an old black
man", or "wow, you sound great" which is actually the first part of a sentence that
isn't finished such as "wow you sound great, for a girl". Sometimes I heard these
sentences finished. And these comments are always said with much awe and
surprise. "Wow, I've never heard a girl play like that". Really, it is exposing the
person's own ignorance, but it is still a negative comment and annoying to hear. It
is demeaning and shows an example of how we are not considered on the same
level or playing field when being listened to. Also, there are comments such as
"play with balls" or "play like a man" that many students think are harmless figures
of speech but actually end up bringing the gender issue up all the time.
In a more intangible way, I was not part of the "boys club", so my peer group was
weaker and I did not benefit as much from these aspects of music school such as
jam sessions, or practice sessions, initiated by other students. The male students
often offer each other encouragement, tips, or compare different techniques or
equipment, but don't offer this type of conversation with the females.
Also, I think sometimes it is intimidating for a male to be "shown up" by a female,
so these issues are actually worsened if the female player is on a high level.
Sometimes i was ignored more by my peers who weren't quite as good of players.
I am guessing this ties into the fact that men are supposed to dominate in our
culture.
On another note, most college-age males that I experienced were more
concerned with trying to "hit on" me or sleep with me than play music with me or
talk about music. I had the problem of not being taken seriously as a peer
musician because the males were too distracted by trying to be cool or trying to
get me to like them.
Sep 14, 2010 9:39 PM
8 of 26
16 I find I get more attention from some professors and students if I look nice. A lot of
times I feel I have to prove myself more to my teachers to get the same respect.
I'm never asked if I'm an instrumentalist, only a vocalist, and now that I've started
singing everyone assumes I'm giving up saxophone, which I think is only because
I'm a girl. I've noticed that the woman professor at my school gets hit on a lot, and
a lot of her students don't take her seriously or respect her as much, especially if
she looks nice. In jazz band another older female instrumentalist came in to talk to
the band and afterward everyone was giving her shit for looking nice and not
taking her seriously as a musician. I hear a lot of comments from the guys around
me that the female instrumentalists I respect only have their positions because
they are attractive women. Overall, there are a lot of comments or jokes made by
the guys around me that they don't think twice about, but I find surprising. I feel
like I always have to kick ass in order to be taken seriously or given respect.
Sep 15, 2010 12:00 AM
17 Not in my university. But some years before that, when I was still in high school
my arrangement teacher once said to me: "Dont take this too hard, but... you
ARE a girl... Girls always have to be much better than guys before they are taken
seriously..." I had just given up classical studies and switched to jazz studies - I
had a lot of energy and an enormous self confidence which had everything to do
with the fact that I was SO interested in the music that the interest kept me
wanting to constantly learn more. Therefore I just thougt to myself: Ok, thats what
YOU think, I know what Im doing, some day youll see.... After that Ive had many
doubts and lack of motivation, but Im very proud of myself that I spontaniously
thought as I thought after my teachers (a male teacher) comment.
Sep 15, 2010 12:18 AM
18 Mainly just being treated as an "afterthought" as opposed to being the first one to
be thought of for gigs, jam sessions, etc. because I might not fit into the group's
vibe (because of being female).
Sep 15, 2010 2:11 AM
19 Many times I get "Trombones, play with more Balls!...Sorry to Mindy"
You're the only girl I've seen play the trombone
Sep 15, 2010 3:30 AM
20 Moreso with older students- when I met students younger than me they were nit
usually as quick to dismiss me/ my assumed ability
Sep 15, 2010 4:10 AM
21 Yes, whilst studying at City College, NYC, one of the other students (Willie-James
Terrill lll) & I had been in a relationship. After we had broken up he made a pass
at me during class, one time. It was an Improv class & after I had finished playing
I had to walk pass him to get back to my seat. He grabbed my Butt with the most
full-on grab that you could possibly imagine - I mean there was no mistaking this,
he used every inch of his hand to grab as much of my butt as possible. He said
"Mmmmm" as he did it. I turned around & angrily said something to him about it in
front of some other students who were sitting nearby.
A couple of other times in an ensemble class that we had together, he also gave
me overly blatant "looking me up & down" type looks - it got to the stage where I
had to make a concerted effort to avoid eye contact with him, because I knew
what was in store for me if he could see that I was having (or close to having) eye
contact with him. It takes a lot of energy to avoid someone's eye contact, & a lot of
energy to "block them out".
Other incidences happened with this guy, the first one being before I even started
at the school (it was on a gig - "in the workplace"), so that occasion doesn't apply
to this survey.
A few years after I finished at City College I bumped into a girl who'd been in the
same classes - she said that he also hit on her at school
Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM
9 of 26
22 At the school I went to (City College Of New York Jazz Department), even though
I was the only female instrumentalist in the entire class, I did not experience any
discrimination because of my gender. My peers treated me with respect.
I don't know if you will be asking questions about jazz scene outside of academic
education,
but my experience of being a victim of gender discrimination happened once I
graduated college and started hopping into local jazz jam sessions.
I would sit at piano to join the session, and this older saxphone player would go
like
"So, what do YOU wanna play, young lady?" in a little sarcastic way.
Also I have heard my peer jazz musician say "only men can play jazz"
"jazz is the man's world"
It is hard to determine what kind of situations to be considered as discrimination,
but I definitely think that many male jazz musicians have tendency of devaluing
and being more judgemental about female jazz instrumentalist like myself.
I am an Asian female, so it could be racial too, or mix of race and gender, but the
focus here is gender issue.
I find it interesting that in jazz history of united states, there have been a racial
conflict between african-american jazz musicians and caucasian jazz musicians,
but now jazz scene is so gentrified that black-white conflicts rarely happens
anymore, but it is still quite difficult for female jazz instrumentalist to become a
part of jazz scene.
Sep 15, 2010 4:04 PM
23 In one ensemble in particular, I often received inappropriate remarks regarding my
clothing and general appearance. There was always some sort of insinuation that
I was doing something sexual if I happened to be late or had to leave early. I
never felt like I was being taken very seriously.
Sep 15, 2010 4:22 PM
24 One time a fellow classmate asked me to babysit while he was playing in an
ensemble concert. He didn't ask any of the men in the program, just me. As if
because I'm female, I had some sort of "motherly" instinct. This was about three
years ago.
However, if you want to go back further (which may be irrelevant) my peers in the
early 1990s in the undergraduate jazz program I attended were so nasty with me I
transferred to another college to finish my degree. They were condescending,
said inappropriate gender-related things constantly, and were chauvinistic in every
way.
Sep 15, 2010 5:18 PM
25 I have heard men make sexually explicit references, loud enough for the whole
room to hear, when I am the only woman in the room. I suppose that they don't
mean anything by it, but it's uncomfortable for me being the only female in a room
full of guys being "guys".
Sep 15, 2010 10:44 PM
26 Other than passing remarks of a sexual nature ("Whoa, a chick playing
saxophone! That looks goooood"), the discrimination I felt was being excluded
from jam sessions and musical hang sessions. The feeling was that guys wanted
to hang out with each other, and having a girl around killed the vibe for them. It's
the informal events that lead to formal work where I felt most left out.
Sep 16, 2010 2:54 AM
27 Most of this is not overt, however I have to prove myself every I enter a new class,
combo, big band, etc...
Sep 16, 2010 4:24 AM
28 Giving preference to a mail instrumentist Sep 16, 2010 2:43 PM
10 of 26
29 Guys would make sexual jokes all the time, yet they wouldn't do it in part to make
me feel lesser. They just felt like I was one of the guys and they could say any
thing around me. Honestly at the time I wasn't offended but as I neared the end
of my 4 years, I started to feel like , " man this is bullshit".
The main thing that I got me was when I co-founded an all female r&b jazz group
and they guys were like, " you should call it the tittie committe or the vag tag."
Stupid things like that, and it was rediculous because us girls weren't calling these
all guy groups, " the dicks" or we weren't calling them gay for playing with only
guys.
Sep 16, 2010 4:20 PM
30 Not really, although socially it has been more difficult to hang out with other jazz
majors. The male jazz majors tend to form tight-knit cliques, and I often feel
excluded from jazz social life because of my gender. However, I do not feel like
my playing is judged by my gender.
Sep 16, 2010 7:03 PM
31 I have had fellow jazz majors who made me feel uncomfortable by making
gestures that implied something sexual being done to my body part(s). Other
situations include making sexist/degrading jokes around me.
Sep 16, 2010 8:45 PM
32 In many of my interactions with my peers, I felt like there was quite often an
expectation that I was less capable than my male counterparts. Particularly in
jazz, I feel like there is an exclusive "boys club" mentality that is hard to escape
however unconscious it may be, and I felt like this played into our musical
interactions. (To be fair, this was not true across the board, and there were a fair
number of jazz majors who I feel respected me and judged me impartially on my
musical abilities.)
Sep 16, 2010 11:17 PM
33 I checked yes but it was only an issue for me at first, and it was just in terms of
getting invited to do little gigs around campus. Once they realized that they
prefered my playing to the other guy's, the gig distribution became more equitable.
It wasn't really a big deal after that.
Sep 20, 2010 12:24 PM
34 There was just one or two instances where it seemed clear that my peers were
more interested in me sexually than in playing music with me.
Sep 21, 2010 6:09 PM
1 No, I didn't want to alienate myself. These are both students that were better
players/more favored than me.
Sep 12, 2010 4:01 PM
2 I reported the incidents atfirst with him and then to the dean and after that the
ombusmen of the school was involved but nothing was ever truly done about him.
I just hope that my not backing down and standing up for who I am made it bettr
for another female to come.
Sep 12, 2010 4:11 PM
3 During my freshman year at the other university I attended, I told my private
instructor about how my band leader did not give me any chance to work on my
soloing skills. He was very kind enough to help me in that situation and placed me
in a combo where I worked on my soloing skills there.
Sep 13, 2010 12:39 AM
4 No, I did not tell any Faculty members. I went directly to the guy who was giving
me the sexual harassment & addressed it immediately - the instant it had
happened, I spoke to him about it. I didn't waste any time!
Sep 15, 2010 1:46 PM
5 I said no to the babysitting. It wasn't really a big deal, just annoying.
As for undergrad, I said nothing. There wasn't really anyone to say anything to.
Sep 15, 2010 5:19 PM
11 of 26
6 I did let the head of the program know about the " tittie committe" comment so on
the combo night when the whole jazz department was in one room he gave a little
lecture how that is not ok at all. .... guys still told dirty jokes, as well as the head
of the department
Sep 16, 2010 4:21 PM
7 I did not want the instance to be known to the students involved in the case, but
the male faculty I spoke to about the instance told other faculty and it made the
case even worse than what it was in the beginning. I wish I had spoken directly to
the students who made me feel uncomfortable, but I did not have the courage to
do so. I did not want to come across as being prude or unfriendly as a fellow
musician.
Sep 16, 2010 8:48 PM
1. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved
Please explain
1 To be honest, I became increasingly turned off to the jazz world as a whole. The
idea of being in a big band pretty much turned my stomach, both socially and
artistically. I can't say it was all the vibe, a lot of it was my growing and changing
as a player, but I just felt more accepted playing with rock bands than I did in jazz
ones...
Sep 12, 2010 11:19 AM
2 I never agreed to sub for that ensemble again. Or any groups that had that
douchebag on the keyboard.
Sep 12, 2010 4:02 PM
3 It made me want to do the opposite and creat ascene where kick ass female m
usicians are dominating.
Sep 12, 2010 4:13 PM
4 I'm still not sure who this faculty member is (new student at this school, don't know
all the faculty members), but I have avoided talking to him on one occasion and
really really hope I don't end up in an ensemble directed by him.
Sep 12, 2010 8:35 PM
5 I avoided small groups (combos) for a bit in my undergrad because I felt
uncomfortable.
Sep 12, 2010 9:20 PM
6 Because I was told numerous times that I wasn't allowed to solo because I "wasn't
ready," I developed a fear of soloing, thinking that it might be true. I developed
anxiety when soloing and I had less confidence. It wasn't until that I changed
schools and got into a better playing environment that I realized that I could solo
just as good as everyone else.
Sep 13, 2010 12:41 AM
7 It made me not want to be around them- but I love what I do, work very hard, and
my professors and people that are much older than me I hang out with and
appreciate me as a player and a person. It makes me go to jazz hangs a whole lot
less often (like never, except if I specifically go with a good friend because I don't
have a car to go anywhere)
Sep 13, 2010 2:18 AM
8 If anything it only motivates me to keep joining the "gentleman's clubs" of the
music scene at the university. It isn't an everyday occurrence of female members
of the college of music to join these school-related activities so why shouldn't a
female perspective be involved? Yes, in a way she suffers, but this will only build
character and have her gain the experience she wouldn't have had if she didn't
join in the fun.
Sep 13, 2010 2:21 PM
9 At the time it didn't, but I know this experience has affected me in other ways- i.e.
self confidence.
Sep 13, 2010 3:29 PM
10 it was an isolated incident Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM
11 i wanted to experience as much as i could. if i didn't get in a certain group, i made
my own.
Sep 13, 2010 6:05 PM
12 Although it was an experience that was unpleasant, I feel like I am strong enough
to continue what I love to do and not be distracted by men who are inept to
common social behaviors.
Sep 13, 2010 6:28 PM
12 of 26
1. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved
Please explain
13 In terms of ensembles, I tended to put together ensembles that included people I
was friendly with. Classes were much different than ensembles, and most of the
student-related issues were taking place during non-class time.
Sep 14, 2010 9:40 PM
14 It intimidates me a lot, and discourages me from going to jam sessions but that
may just be my personal insecurities as a player. In the end it makes me want to
prove myself even more.
Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM
15 There hasn't been anything major- I just understand that jazz is a man's world and
that I may have to fight to prove myself a little more (which can get annoying) but
it doesnt hold me back.
Sep 15, 2010 2:12 AM
16 I play traditionally male instruments, so I have been around boyish behavior for a
long time. Also, I realize that often times it's a man's insecurity and lack of
character that would motivate him to say something offensive/inappropriate in the
presence of anyone, much less a woman.
Sep 15, 2010 10:46 PM
17 Loss of gigs Sep 16, 2010 2:44 PM
18 Yes I didn't feel like I should play in to the bullshit so I guess I missed out on some
oppurtunities.
Sep 16, 2010 4:21 PM
19 I can't really think of any events or activities that limited me to want to participate
because of the experiences I've had. If anything, it made me not want to speak to
anyone (male, especially) about any minor cases.
Sep 16, 2010 8:50 PM
20 I often felt like many of my peers felt like the ability to play jazz was a means of
asserting one's masculinity and this general attitude and expectation often made
everything from rehearsals and jam sessions to concerts slightly uncomfortable.
Sep 16, 2010 11:20 PM
21 It was just sort of a wake up call, and I began to figure out how to relate clearly
with my peers.
Sep 21, 2010 6:10 PM
1. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from
1 Though this is not an overt instance, I do sometimes get the sense that certain
male faculty members are not as willing to start a close mentor-student
relationship with me because I am a female and because it may come across the
wrong way, and because sexual harassment is such a real threat and how can
they know whether I might misinterpret certain behavior, etc. For example I know
that many male colleagues get to a certain relationship level with their teacher
where they are in frequent phone contact regarding school but also regarding
extra-curricular topics, such as general life or career advice - a sort of an extra
dose of attention/mentoring for "favored" students. I feel that part of the reason I
don't have a close mentor relationship with any of my teachers here is because
they are all male, and that by being a female, it imposes certain social difficulties
on this. I'm not sure if this could be considered sexual discrimination, but it's a
topic I often reflect on, and makes me consider this: if there were a prominent
female teacher in my instrumental field, would it be easier to have a close
student/teacher bond because there would not be any "traditional" sexual
misinterpretations possible? In the field of music, it is often the relationships and
the "connections" we form that move us forward - are females then hindered
because they have less of a chance of forming mentor-type relationships with
their professors? (Understanding that not all students actually do receive this
special sort of extra attention)
Sep 12, 2010 3:42 AM
13 of 26
2 At the second jazz program I attended, one particular teacher made it his personal
agenda basically give me a hard time all year. THis guy is notorious for
psychologically screwing with his students, but for me it came in the form of
insinuating that I was dating various members of the class I was not dating, most
of whom were my friends...like, I can't be FRIENDS with these guys, right? I have
to be SLEEPING with them....it was BS. I was the ONLY GIRL in that graduating
class...it made me feel weird. THEN he'd like, try to svengali me into the kind of
player he wanted me to be, telling me, seriously, how my career should play out. I
was just like, whatever man. He was trying to intimidate me, but thats what those
old jazz guys do....
Sep 12, 2010 11:25 AM
3 Most faculty members were more friendly than fellow students, and I feel like their
mistakes are more just inappropriate mistakes than mean-spirited harassment,
but here are the few I remember:
-A faculty member told me to wear "something shiny, with bra straps showing" to a
gig with a school combo.
-I introduced myself to a faculty member and he said "Nice kitties". I was wearing
a t-shirt with drawing of cats on the front, he said this while looking at my tits.
-A faculty member asked me to wear a tux to a gig (I feel like this is discriminatory
cause you wouldn't ask a guy to cross-dress and wear a gown to a function).
-A tenured faculty member, no doubt fresh from reading some ridiculous evo-psy,
said during a big band rehearsal where I was one of two girls, that women didn't
have the "bravado" necessary to take impassioned solos or be lead trumpet
players. Then she asked our opinion.
-A faculty member asked me to close the door to his office so we could talk, then
cracked open a bottle of wine and offered me some. The talking went fine, but it
felt really weird. I avoided being alone in an office with that faculty member again.
Sep 12, 2010 4:15 PM
4 Yes, so far any of the discrimination I've experienced has only been from faculty
members, because they tend to be on the older side; I think it's a generational
thing.
Sep 12, 2010 8:36 PM
5 See prior answer Sep 12, 2010 9:20 PM
6 My freshman year of college was difficult because my band leader would not let
me solo. He would let others take the lead, but when I asked him to give me a
chance, he would give me music that he knew was impossible for a college
freshman to play. When I couldn't make sense of the elaborate chord changes, he
used that as an excuse to not have me solo AT ALL. His reasoning was that if I
couldn't make sense of difficult chord changes, then I couldn't solo on something
more my level at that time (I was a freshman), like a blues or a standard. He did
not want to teach me anything. I felt as if he was creating unnecessary road
blocks into becoming a better jazz musician.
Sep 13, 2010 12:48 AM
7 I'm a pianist, and a teacher once advised me to take up singing because people
like to see a nice looking girl sing and play piano. He only meant to help my
career, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't advising his male students to do the same.
Sep 13, 2010 1:01 AM
8 I was unfairly graded in evaluations of my performance, as compared to male
counterparts.
Sep 13, 2010 5:19 AM
9 With my majors professor, it was instances of him including inappropriate
references to female body parts or sexual activities; such as "blowing your vagina
off" or "she must have given him a really good blow job" (in the topic of
conversation of why a soloist was chosen). Another instance was when
professors would offer to have lessons at their places of residence.
Sep 13, 2010 2:23 PM
10 i had a teacher tell me in my undergraduate studies that he didn't know how to
teach me because i had "feminine energy."
Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM
14 of 26
11 Again, I was the top player and the teachers actually asked me to play with them
sometimes. Example: Once they were doing auditions for a new jazz ensemble
director. They asked me to play with him since that was part of the audition.
Sep 13, 2010 5:41 PM
12 i guess this would also be related to my answer to #3. Sep 13, 2010 6:05 PM
13 Multiple verbal advances from a faculty member Sep 13, 2010 6:51 PM
14 Inappropriate physical contact from an instructor. He would put his hands on my
shoulders when it was not necessary.
Sep 13, 2010 7:53 PM
15 Advances and special treatment from private instructors on numerous occasions--
at least 3 different teachers.
Scolding in front of class (not usual behavior with other male students), being told
to "smile more.
Sep 13, 2010 11:15 PM
16 not a specific situation, but i get an overall feeling that it is thought that maybe
women are less interesting musically, speacilly when teachers assign solos for
presentations, for instance.
Sep 14, 2010 10:07 AM
17 It seemed that the older generation of males, meaning the teachers, were more
discriminatory than the younger peers, but in a different way.
One time I heard a faculty member whistle as I walked down the hall from my
practice room.
One faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting a massage
with oils during an ensemble.
Many faculty members compare music to women, or dating, or another related
topic when teaching.
One faculty member would look at my friend's rear end when she went to the
blackboard, in front of the whole class. This same person would look at student's
breasts when talking to them.
On the other hand, an older faculty member would be more proper around
females, but say very crude things when they weren't around, to the male
students, which I would hear about later on. These included sexual comparisons
with the music and metaphors for the feeling of a woman and the feeling of jazz.
This also shows how the faculty member was not only saying discriminatory
things to males about females, but discriminating against the females by not really
giving them his all. In addition to not mentioning these rude comments, he wasn't
giving out his knowledge to the fullest level.
I have heard many times during a master class a musician talking about women
and "in their day" the women..... this completely negates their wisdom and makes
me defensive and annoyed.
Sep 14, 2010 9:47 PM
18 Most of them don't. A lot of them seem more hesitant and super careful not to
come across the wrong way, sometimes I feel like they aren't sure how to interact
with a young woman. Only once or twice have I noticed that I'll get more attention
if I look nice. There is one professor who I feel I don't get as much respect from
because I'm a woman. It seems like he's really into his other students' playing
(who I feel I'm at the same level as) but is never excited about what I'm doing. But
I'm sure he would disagree. I played for a show at a fundraiser for his organization
and he was on his phone the whole time outside. But when I played the same
fundraiser with a male front man, he was inside listening intently.
Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM
19 Again, nothing major- just the sense that special remarks or explanations or
treatment was slightly different because I was a girl, possibly because I was one
of so few girls and it might have been uncomfortable for the faculty member. But
mostly this hasnt been an issue.
Sep 15, 2010 2:13 AM
20 An offhand joke that was made, saying my composition was not so organized
because I'm female.
Sep 15, 2010 2:56 AM
15 of 26
21 I was almost always assumed to be a weak player by the older men teaching on
the faculty, that usually changed after I was heard.
Sep 15, 2010 4:11 AM
22 My trombone teacher told me I should be a model, and a singer... Sep 15, 2010 4:58 AM
23 I had a private lesson teacher who used to hit on me all the time. The first few
lessons went by without a hitch, then he started in. First how pretty I was, and just
small things here and there. By the end of the semester he was actually telling me
he wanted to have sex with me in every lesson. I continued to study with him
cause I was learning, and had a lot of male friends who really respected his
teaching. I didn't want to give up. I felt like I should just shrug it off & try and focus
on the music. Also, he was an intimidating guy - the kind of guy who would take
other students lack of practicing or performance errors as a personal offense. He
made people feel like he was going to get angry if you played bad, and also, if you
chose to switch teachers. Eventually, two years after I'd stopped studying with
him, I reported the situation, and learned that I wasn't the first to file a complaint,
and that the jazz director head had been wanting to get him fired for some time
because he felt he was intimidating all his students into continuing to study with
him when it wasn't always the best thing for them.
Sep 15, 2010 1:30 PM
24 Was hired as secretarial assistant to a jazz professor based on looks and gender
alone. He took me out to an expensive dinner as a "job interview," buying me lots
of alcohol even though I am underage. In my improvisation final, my teacher told
me not to be afraid to "dress more femininely."
Sep 15, 2010 3:28 PM
25 I definitely felt that I was being held to a lower standard at my first university.
There was nothing overt, but being the only female brass player in the program
was difficult for me. I could not find a teacher that took me seriously and
demanded what he might from a male student.
Sep 15, 2010 4:25 PM
26 On the first day of class my jazz composition teacher pointed at me (the only
female in the room), asked me my major (jazz voice performance), and stated
unequivocally that I was going to have difficulty in this class because "vocalists
don't know how to write." He did not bother to consider that not only was I a multi-
instrumentalist in addition to my singing, but that I had been writing, composing
and arranging jazz for far longer than he had been a teacher of jazz.
Furthermore, I already had been a university/conservatory professor of jazz and
voice for longer than he had been and the lack of respect based on my gender
and major was unwarranted, unappreciated and discriminatory. There was
another jazz vocal major in the room on that day, but because he was male he
was asked if he played other instruments (he did) and so the discrimination was
not extended toward him. My having played piano since age 5, drumset in school
and french horn for 9 years culminating in an invitation to perform in Carnegie Hall
was information that I did not feel should be necessary to share in order to gain
my teacher's respect, so I did not share it. At the end of the semester, even
though I earned an A in his class, the grade he reported was B+.
Sep 15, 2010 4:38 PM
27 After a class my sophomore year of college (1992-3) I was told by a teacher to do
my homework or I would get a spanking. I walked away thinking that was a silly
thing to say; years later, I realized what he meant and was disgusted.
Sep 15, 2010 5:20 PM
28 One faculty member told me I had sexy legs, among many other sexual
comments. This instructor also made comments about me to my peers.
Several private instructors have talked to me like I'm a ten year old... "this is how
to play jazz, little girl"
One of these instructors is notorious among other females in my department for
making degrading comments.
Sep 16, 2010 4:39 AM
29 giving preference to mail instrumentists Sep 16, 2010 2:44 PM
30 Just by accident, the head is a goof ball and would say some inapropraite things. Sep 16, 2010 4:22 PM
31 Many jazz professors make sexist jokes and remarks, such as talking about
putting me on stage in fishnets and stilettos. I was also asked for a kiss once in
exchange for the use of rehearsal space.
Sep 16, 2010 7:04 PM
16 of 26
32 I have had a comment made to me by a faculty regarding some new clothing
article I was wearing. It was not a sexual comment, but it made me feel
embarrassed to be dressing a certain way because I am a female. I have also had
a faculty who tried to massage my shoulders which stopped immediately.
Apparently, this faculty did not realize the fact that doing such thing to a female
student might be a problem.
Sep 16, 2010 8:57 PM
33 For the most part, I feel like I was blessed with having fantastic faculty members
who treated me with respect and gave me the support I wanted. There were
however, instances were I felt that some faculty members simply expected less of
me and therefore didn't try to engage with me as much as my peers who were
male.
Sep 16, 2010 11:22 PM
34 When loading and unloading equipment or setting up a stage, the director always
asked the boys to carry the risers
Sep 18, 2010 4:04 AM
35 Sometimes, actually many times, I thought it was because the director didn't want
to appear to be giving preferential treatment to a female. Also, gender-based is a
more accurate word in this case than sexual.
As an undergraduate student almost twenty years ago, a certain faculty member
gave a younger male classmate of mine all kinds of outside opportunities that I
would have loved to had a chance to experience and learn from and get paid for.
Since I was more advanced as a player, I wondered about this so I finally asked
the faculty member about it and he said that the other student needed this
experience in preparation for his career. He managed to say in a very subtle way
that it was because he was a guy and that's just the things were out there in real
life. I'm not a person who looks for opportunies to label things as gender-based
discrimination, but in this case it distinctly felt like the career of any less talented
male was more important in the over all scheme of things than that of any female,
at least to this particular faculty member.
Sep 20, 2010 12:47 PM
36 A couple of the male faculty members never learned my name. They would call
me, "baby," and comment on my appearance instead of supporting me musically.
Sep 21, 2010 6:11 PM
1 I complained to other teachers I liked, who basically said, that particular professor
was a dick, and to ignore him. I actually just flat out threatened him, in front of the
class, to take it to the dean, when he made any inappropriate comments about my
personal life. He backed off a bit after that....
Sep 12, 2010 11:27 AM
2 None of this warranted reporting in my opinion, as nothing was very serious. Sep 12, 2010 4:16 PM
3 Yes and my private instructor was kind enough to put me into a combo where I
worked on my soloing skills there instead.
Sep 13, 2010 12:49 AM
4 he was fired Sep 13, 2010 5:22 PM
5 To the head of the program; also the dean and student services Sep 13, 2010 11:16 PM
17 of 26
6 I reported when one faculty member touched my hips and talked about me getting
a massage with oils during an ensemble. I ended up going straight to the Chair of
the Music Department (she was female). She understood, but ended up telling the
Program Coordinator (who was male), who made me tell him about it (I didn't feel
comfortable talking to him about it in the first place which is why I went to the
Chair), and then he talked to the faculty member about it directly (which is also
what I specifically asked him not to do, because then he knew I complained about
him to administration). The accused faculty member ran for Department Head and
didn't get it. Essentially he was not reprimanded, and I was embarrassed further.
Many male students in the department heard about this and were annoyed that I
might have messed with his election for department head.
Sep 14, 2010 9:51 PM
7 The teacher was fired. However - not without a debacle, about how they were
going to have use my name in a meeting with him to explain who had filed a
complaint. I expressed extreme concern over this - cause this guys seemed like
he might fly off the handle to me, and, as a fellow musician, I figured I'd run into
him again. I didn't want that to happen outside of school, when he was angry.
Faculty told me it was policy, that he had a right to know or something like that.
Eventually I learned that the jazz director had pulled some strings and my name
had not been used.
Sep 15, 2010 1:33 PM
8 I reported it in my course evaluation at the end of the semester, but I did not
pursue it further because I could not risk this person ruining my chances in other
classes. I sincerely wanted and needed to succeed in my studies and I felt that
reporting it might be detrimental to my future relations with other teachers and
perhaps my peers.
Sep 15, 2010 4:41 PM
9 I knew that reporting these incidences would ostracize me even more from the
department. The whole department is a mens club and reporting one of them
would make the rest of them hate me.
Sep 16, 2010 4:40 AM
10 It turned out that the faculty who tried to massage my shoulders was known to all
female students in the program as being inappropriate. Almost all of the female
students had reported to the head of the program, but we were very disappointed
to find out that nothing was done to keep him from becoming a tenure at the
school. He just ended up being thought of as the "creepy guy" to all (female and
male) students.
Sep 16, 2010 8:59 PM
1. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes,
Please explain
1 once I was in a program that had optional big bands (it was small ensemble
based, unlik the first school I went to) I was like, HELL NO I do not need to be in
no pissing contest with a bunch of guys....
Sep 12, 2010 11:28 AM
2 I didn't take sax lessons from the "nice kitties" dude until my last year, when I was
sure that he was a nice guy, and not a creep.
Sep 12, 2010 4:19 PM
3 I switched private teachers after several inappropriate comments by a professor. Sep 12, 2010 9:21 PM
4 Nothing will or has ever stopped me from becoming the musician that I am.
People may have tried to slow me down, but all efforts are futile as their
discrimination forces me to become more resourceful and a stronger person.
When I play, there is no gender.
Sep 13, 2010 12:52 AM
5 With certain classes, private teachers, and advisors, yes, because I had heard
stories about particular teachers who gave unfair treatment to women players as
opposed to men.
Sep 13, 2010 5:51 AM
6 Since I have refused to have these lessons at their places of residence, they have
thus refused to teach me. Thus limiting my choice of classes, et al.
Sep 13, 2010 2:24 PM
18 of 26
1. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes,
Please explain
7 in choosing my graduate studies i was much more cautious about who i studied
with, as well as the school environment.
Sep 13, 2010 5:23 PM
8 Absolutely. Sep 13, 2010 11:17 PM
9 As i said eralier, it's more of a feeling than a proved daily situation. In my case, it
makes me stronger to aply for every class i want, and when i get good grades i
feel it as a small victory.
Sep 14, 2010 10:10 AM
10 I wouldn't want to be stuck in a room alone with a creepy guy. So, certain teachers
who may have great musical knowledge that the male students benefit greatly
from, I don't get the pleasure of learning from, but at least I remain comfortable.
Sep 14, 2010 9:52 PM
11 I still took the same professor's classes during the terms after that incident
because I didn't take his remark very seriously. I think it was really just a joke.
Sep 15, 2010 2:57 AM
12 It made things a bit more difficult but I worked harder to prove myself. Sep 15, 2010 4:12 AM
13 I didn't have a choice Sep 15, 2010 4:59 AM
14 I chose not to study with the teacher who had been discriminating, but ultimately,
it didn't feel like a loss, and I didn't feel inhibited in any other way.
Sep 15, 2010 1:34 PM
15 I refused to take the secretary job because I felt uncomfortable about the situation
it put me in.
Sep 15, 2010 3:38 PM
16 I was advised not to take certain classes because some of the faculty members
were rumored to say inappropriate things about their female students. Other
faculty members openly preferred not have female students. I eventually
transferred universities.
Sep 15, 2010 4:26 PM
17 I was determined not to take another class from this teacher, so I appealed to my
advisor to "pass out" of the next requirement taught by him, based on the
arrangements and pieces I had already written in years past. Fortunately, my
appeal was accepted and I did not have to take any more classes from him, but I
felt cheated because the class I would have taken was big band composition and
that was one of the key reasons I wanted this education in the first place. So
because I did not want him as a mentor, I was prevented from exploring that facet
of my education.
Sep 15, 2010 4:45 PM
18 I transferred to another college half-way through my undergraduate studies. Sep 15, 2010 5:21 PM
19 Certainly. My undergraduate degree became very uncomfortable. I've avoided
certain instructors who are known to be sexist. This became awkward when I had
to try to explain to other faculty why I wasn't taking with these instructors.
Sep 16, 2010 4:40 AM
20 He was the head of the jazz department, he didn't mean it , it just came out that
way.
Sep 16, 2010 4:22 PM
21 There is one jazz professor in general who I feel really uncomfortable around (the
one who has made the most sexist remarks and asked for the kiss). I have no
control over whether he is my combo teacher or not, but I try to avoid him
because he makes me very uncomfortable and nervous.
Sep 16, 2010 7:05 PM
22 I have not felt limited to take any courses or ensembles because of the incident,
but I have always felt that being alone with the faculty was not a smart idea. If I
had the option to take a private lesson with him, I would have definitely said no.
Sep 16, 2010 9:01 PM
23 I feel like my choice of musicians to play with in combos may have been limited
because of this.
Sep 16, 2010 11:23 PM
24 It definitely limited some choices I made early on. It was much less of an issue
during my recent stint in grad school.
Sep 20, 2010 12:50 PM
25 Yes, I certainly tried to avoid certain combo coaches and I also felt like I was not
supported as well in certain classes and maybe even given a lower grade for no
apparent reason.
Sep 21, 2010 6:12 PM
19 of 26
1 Got a gig with another female musician and was hired without them hearing how
we played. Was told basically that we had the right "look". Seemed like it was
most important for them to have two young female musicians playing at their
restaurant and that it didn't really matter how we sounded.
Sep 12, 2010 6:01 AM
2 There was one time at the Smoke jam session I was on the list to sit in and play,
and I felt like it had been over and hour and other guys had gone up more than
once to play, so I eventually went up to the guy leading the session and
confronted him, and he mumbled something and I got to play-- I'm not for sure
that this was sex discrimination, it could have just been that I was new to the
session, but it sort of seemed that way.
I don't have any super clear examples, but sometimes it does seem like I'm not
taken seriously at the beginning of a gig, like people sort of look at me like "who's
she" but then after they hear me play, their entire attitude changes and they want
to know more about me and they want my card, etc etc.... there haven't been
many people like this, though, only a few.
I guess I have been really lucky- (or really oblivious, lol!) to have been so warmly
and opened received into whatever community I was entering, was it a school
setting or a new city.
Sep 12, 2010 3:58 PM
3 If anything, I feel like being female gives me a more favorable response from the
audience.
Sep 12, 2010 4:20 PM
4 Sexual harassment, groping, unnecessary contact, insulting phrases, etc. Sep 12, 2010 5:37 PM
5 Sometimes I am expected to flirt with bar goers or pretend to be amused when
other musicians make sexual jokes or references. Occasionally the jokes are
funny, and I am amused, but wonder why people think it is appropriate to say
them at all. In Virginia, many women jazz musicians like the attention of being the
old female and will refuse to share a stage with another women; this perplexes me
and is a regular problem.
Sep 12, 2010 9:24 PM
6 Working on a cruise ship, I encountered sexual harassment from a bandleader
and sound engineer. This included sexual comments on a daily basis and
unwanted attention. I felt that as the only female in the group, I had to put up with
the attention and be a good sport about it.
Sep 12, 2010 11:27 PM
7 When people see me carry my baritone saxophone case into a performance or
jam session, they notice that the case is almost as big as I am. Upon seeing this,
instead of refusing to let me play, most people are curious to see if I could make
noise on the instrument in the first place. That's the impression I get. Once I start
playing, however, I've noticed that most people stare in amazement, simply
because they've never seen such a small woman play such a large instrument
with such force before. I must admit, it is not common for women to play the
baritone sax.
Sep 13, 2010 1:01 AM
8 At gigs, musicians and audience members alike assume I don't know as many
tunes as my male counterparts.
Sep 13, 2010 5:52 AM
9 More often than not, my male counterparts are chosen over me to get the gig; this
I find might be because a female playing on the gig will get more attention thus
taking attention away from what the gig is actually about. Suggestions to dress
provocatively for gigs have been more rampant than anything else.
Sep 13, 2010 2:27 PM
10 Surprisingly enough... there's a woman in town that "has it out for me". I did a
musical gig with her and after the gig she told me that the only way I'd get ahead
was to sleep with everyone. I won't do that of course... she told me off for about
45 minutes. This person is successful as a studio player and my forte is more as
a soloist. I have heard from others that she is jealous of me. I respect what she
does and respect her abilities and success. She's a good 20 to 30 years older
than me and it would have been nice to have her take me under her wing with
encouragement, rather than intimidate and attack me.
Sep 13, 2010 3:34 PM
20 of 26
11 people are much more likely to comment on how i look playing, rather than how i
sound. comments include "you lot hot when you play" or " you should smile more
when you play". either of these comments would rarely be said to male musicians.
Sep 13, 2010 5:24 PM
12 I'm a skinny, 5'6, 22 year old white girl. When I meet people they immediately
think I can't play anything and kind of laugh in my face. But once I start playing
they're taken back and know they're wrong because I can play well. As far as gigs
are concerned, I'm reliable and on time, so they say that I'm different from men
because most of the guy drummers they know are late and not prepared. They
say it's just because I'm a female.
Sep 13, 2010 5:43 PM
13 i hate hearing, "you play great for a girl!" or "i wasn't expecting that out of you!!" i
also feel like i have to be very aware of my attire, otherwise i get more comments
on that.
Sep 13, 2010 6:08 PM
14 Mild comments on the fact that I'm a woman and can play my instrument. Nothing
too harmful, just very slight remarks about how that's not very common, or that
onlookers thought I might be a vocalist instead of an instrumentalist.
Sep 13, 2010 6:52 PM
15 Not from other musicians but from bartenders and bar managers! Sometimes
audience members.
Sep 13, 2010 6:53 PM
16 On several occasions people have discounted my ability (assumed i couldnt play)-
- until they actually heard me. Once I established that I indeed could play, I had no
problems.
Sep 13, 2010 8:14 PM
17 Occasionally, but mostly before I have played. Once people hear that I can play
well and I have "proven" myself, I have a better experience.
Also, it is hard to be taken as seriously-I have witnessed time and time again that
even the greatest women are not thought of first for a position or gig.
Sep 13, 2010 11:19 PM
18 The major example is this duo that I have with this other girl. I play the piano and
she sings and our repertoire is mainly Bossa Nova and Jazz Standards. Among
other situations, there was this horrible bar with a table full of men and they kept
yelling rude commentaries about us during our show. We ended the gig earlier
than usual and the owner of the bar came to the stage saying that he had paid us
to play two straight hours. When we said that we couldn't take that anymore, he
said that there was nothing he could do about it 'cause they where spending a lot
of money in drinks. We had never played there before and we never came back.
Another thing happened to us recently. Me and my friend play together very often
in a restaurant far from our home city. From the first time that we went there, they
put us sleeping in the samen room without even ask. Since we are friends, we
didn't care but the assumption upseted us. The other thing is that the owner is
very kind but he always waits for us to have dinner and most of the times he
brings a friend so it sounds a bit like a date. But he's very kind so we tried not to
think bad things. But last we a friend of ours went there for the weekend to play
and we found out that none of the musicians were charing rooms and that the
owner didn't wait for them to eat. Our friend also told us about the comentaires
that the friend of the owner (the one he takes to have dinner with us) did about us.
None of them about the music, of course.
And men hitting on us after the concert happens everytime. But that happens
since I started to frequent jazz clubes.
Another thing happens in jam sessions. I like to dress myself up, not too much,
but I like to look nice and I think people expect even less of a girl who does that.
Like if we want to take jazz seriously we have to dress like men. So everytime I
step in to play a tune in front of a bunch of strangers, the expectations are so low
that people come to congratulate me with that look "you play so nice for a girl!".
Sep 14, 2010 12:47 PM
19 There are certain bands that I notice never hire women, or if they do it is only one.
At jam sessions, when people don't know me (before they hear me play), they
tend to treat me like I can't play. It reminds me of trying to play a sport with the
guys at recess when I was little, I had to prove myself rather than be accepted
from the get-go. Then when they do hear that I can play, some are cool and
others get very insecure and act very cold toward me.
Sep 14, 2010 4:10 PM
21 of 26
20 When I go on stage at a session in a city where Im unknown, people are looking
at me as if they cant believe that I can play and ask me "is a blues in F ok for
you?". After I played they seem to be surprised.
I also often had the feeling that colleagues think woman do not have so much
energy in their playing. I have to prove myself often. Female instrumentalist
should be a bit "male" in their behaviour, then they get more acceptance or
respect, I think. Thats a pitty.
Sep 14, 2010 7:12 PM
21 More of the same. I would say it is on a larger scale, so the more intangible stuff is
heightened as well, such as : who knows if I would have more recognition or
success if I were male? Or maybe less, but maybe the success I have is for the
wrong reasons? Eventually you have to give in a little to the exploitation and use it
to your advantage to overcome the disadvantages being female brings. One
example: I play in an all-female big band, which further ghettoizes women in jazz,
but also allows for opportunity we aren't getting elsewhere. It may be
sensationalized through this medium, but it also brings us attention. It is a strange
cycle, and has been an issue since jazz began. There were always great female
jazz musicians, we just don't know about them.
Sep 14, 2010 9:55 PM
22 I'm not sure. I know I've gotten gigs because I'm a woman. I've gotten 4 different
gigs because they requested a woman instrumentalist or because I always look
professional. I feel vibed at jam sessions. I wish it didn't get in the way. I wish I
could look nice, go to a jam session, and not feel like I need to prove that I can
play. I think everyone has to prove that they can play at a jam session, but for a
nice looking woman, the automatic assumption is that they can't play as well.
Even if it's music, men don't like being beaten by girls. I'm not sure that I haven't
been called for a gig because I'm a woman though.
Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM
23 I dont think so. Im very happy that all the musicians seem to have no interest
whatsoever in anybodys gender. The audience is another story..... And
sometimes some festival arrangers f.ex. the Pori Jazz arranger who now has
retired has very sovinistic attitude, He sees female musicians as something that is
maybe not so professional, but something that maybe sells. I basicly dont talk to
him anymore.... ;)
The audience often makes me feel very uncomfortable. I feel that I get some extra
looks and "well... lets see what SHE has to offer". And if I play strong, loud and
"ugly" I feel that everybody thinks: "Ooooo, she DOES have some guts too" and if
I play beautifully, soft and sweet I feel that everybofy thinks: "Ok, this is exactly
that kind of "girl-music", with pink sounds and soft touch". I dont know if Im just
imagining - but some other women have said the same thing; that they keep
thinking the same stuff. You can either let yourself bother or just ignore it, but you
have to deal with it somehow anyway, spend energy in that issue, and thats what
is tiring. Also some journalists have been really demanding wanting to know what
is female jazz like. And I have constantly answered that there is NO such thing,
And it is unfare also to male musicians to give all the sweet and soft playing to
girls. I know many male musicians who play so unbeliavably beautiful, soft and
warm and that doesnt make them feminine.
Sep 15, 2010 12:19 AM
24 I don't know if it really counts as "discrimination" but it irks me the number of times
it has been mentioned to me that I'm a girl- it is an unnecessary distinction; it's as
if people are surprised that I am a girl jazz musician and can still be talented.
Sep 15, 2010 2:14 AM
25 I definitely feel like I have to prove myself right from the get go. For example, in a
rehearsal situation if we have a new musician playing then he (so far is has
always been a guy) will automatically look to the other guy in the group for
direction. He will only look to me when I have made a few suggestions or
explained something to show I know what i'm talking about.
Sep 15, 2010 3:19 AM
26 Constant hitting on, or actually being hired because I am a female and they
wanted me in a dress.
Sep 15, 2010 3:31 AM
27 WOW. Yeah I guess anything goes at jam sessions. I've had people be outright
offensive to me as in "sit down little girl you can't handle this."
Sep 15, 2010 4:14 AM
22 of 26
28 People don't accept me as a trombonist, they ask ini can play that thing it must be
too bug for me, am I a singer(with trombone in hand) etc...
It's hard for me to figure out if someone actualy wants to hire me or if they want to
get in my pants...many times. U guve my business card out i get inappropriate
non business messages afterwards...
Sep 15, 2010 5:01 AM
29 - Comments from guys in the band (when dressed up for gigs) saying things like
"oh, you look hot tonight... it's really doing it for me" etc
- Occasionally when being booked for gigs, jokingly being requested to 'make sure
you dress sexy' for the punters etc
Sep 15, 2010 1:25 PM
30 Several times I've been in line at jazz shows in the city - at the jazz standard, or
55 bar, or wherever, and over heard jazz students talking behind or in front of me.
Often times I will introduce myself & tell them I'm a pianist. Their follow up
question is usually, "classical?" ...assumption number 1. When I introduce myself
as a musician or as a jazz musician to anyone, first question "are you a singer?"
and even sometimes, "how come you don't sing?"
Other than that, sometimes I feel like guys can be stand-offish at jam sessions
initially, like they are writing me off before they even hear me...but, generally, after
playing, I feel like any initial discrimination dissipates. Thought, there's a trombone
player I've played with for a while - I know he respects my writing & playing, cause
he has told me & continues to come to my shows. His excitement & interest in my
music seems pretty honest & he calls me from time to time for sessions. Everyone
else at the session is always male, and he seems to get into this kind of macho
show-off vibe. Whenever I solo in these sessions, he actually turns around &
starts a conversation with one of the other horn players & proceeds to talk through
my solo. He doesn't do this during other folks solos.
Sep 15, 2010 1:44 PM
31 As I mentioned in an earlier question, the same guy did the same stuff on gigs. He
was the kind of guy "who wouldn't take no for an answer". It started on the first
night we met, on a gig.
As far as other guys are concerned, I've been very lucky & haven't experienced
sexual harassment from any body else. I've been lucky to have professional
interactions with other guys.
It was only that one guy that I had problems with - & those problems with him
were BAD!!! It even made me turn down gigs - it got to the stage where, if a
bandleader called me for a gig, I would ask "who's playing drums?", if the
bandleader said "Will Terrill" then I wold turn down the gig.
I even turned down a jam session recently, which was being run by one of the
Faculty members at City College - he was inviting past & present students to
these sessions, to give them a chance to network. I saw the potential to end up in
the same room as this "Will Terrill", so I asked the Professor if Will was going to
be there. As it turned out the Professor said "You must be psychic, I was going to
ask Will to be at this week's Jam session", so I explained the situation to this
Professor & told him I would have to decline the session. (The Professor hadn't
yet called Will, so he very kindly called someone else to play the drums for that
week). Whew!
Sep 15, 2010 2:00 PM
32 I explained about this in the earlier question, sorry.
I feel that it happens quite often at jam session settings.
When I joined a professional jazz big band rehearsal to sub for my teacher,
only person who talked to me was a man who wanted to hit on me.
I feel that the only way to make it in jazz as a female jazz instrumentalist is to form
her own band and be a band leader.
Sep 15, 2010 4:10 PM
23 of 26
33 In jam session situations where folks don't know me and have not heard me play I
have frequently been put on hold and then asked to play with the weakest, least
experienced musicians in the room.
People who don't know me will generally resist hiring me for gigs even with a
recommendation. If they have heard me it is a different story.
Sep 15, 2010 4:15 PM
34 Most of the discrimination has come from the business end of things: booking
gigs, etc. If a woman is too direct, she's seen as "pushy".
I do find the straight-ahead jazz scene to be quite the "boys' club". There's not
much room for straight-ahead, female instrumental jazz musicians. To this day,
the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra is all-male, and always has been.
I also had a guitar teacher make so many inappropriate advances towards me
that I had to stop studying with him halfway through my third semester in grad
school. He apologized, but that wasn't enough.
Sep 15, 2010 5:23 PM
35 I find that I'm always treated differently due to the fact that I'm a female drummer.
It's not always in a negative manner ... sometimes all this consists of is people
coming up and patting me on the head after a gig while asking me how I'm such a
powerful drummer and such a small girl at the same time. However, there have
also been instances where I find that an audience simply stops listening when
they see that I am a female.
Sep 15, 2010 6:31 PM
36 I was not called to play with a big band at the officer's club because I was a
woman, even though I was well-qualified to play, and several men in the band
recommended me to the leader. I was later told that the band leader told the guys
that he wouldn't hire me because I was a woman.
Sep 15, 2010 10:49 PM
37 This is a hard topic to prove, but I feel that male sax players at the same playing
level are more likely to be called because they are 'buddies' with the other
musicians.
Sep 16, 2010 2:56 AM
38 Overt comments such as "just stand there and look pretty" and also more subtle
instances where I know I'm not being taken seriously. At jam sessions, I've heard
people whisper "is she good?" before deciding which tune I should play.
Sep 16, 2010 4:41 AM
39 not treated as a musician but female Sep 16, 2010 2:28 PM
40 preference to male instrumentists Sep 16, 2010 2:45 PM
41 Not discrimination but pre judgment. For instance they will be like, " o great so
what are you going to sing tonight?" and i'm like " no, I play piano"
Also when I met this one great saxophone player he was talking to my chest the
whole time.
I met Freddie Hubbard and he told me that I looked like this woman that he once
"knew" in New York and then he gave me a big hug... as flattering as that may be,
it was still a bit disturbing.
Sep 16, 2010 4:24 PM
42 The gender-based discrimination I have experienced has usually taken the form of
verbal "compliments" from audience members and critics. I can't remember
getting them from fellow musicians.
In the U.S. I often hear, "I didn't expect you to have such a big sound", or "It was
so surprising to hear such aggressive playing based on your looks", or "you sound
like a 40-year-old, huge black guy".
In Japan, I have faced more explicit comments like, "although she looks like a
quiet girl, she sounds like a guy", or "you're cute so I didn't expect you to play like
that". "She's a girl BUT..." comes up often.
Sep 16, 2010 6:50 PM
43 I don't think I have sufficient experience in the professional jazz world to judge. Sep 16, 2010 7:06 PM
24 of 26
44 I have had comments made about my ethnicity and gender, my physique,
appearance, or the fact that "I can play well FOR BEING A GIRL." Many males
feel this is a compliment, but to the females it is not at all. Also, often times I tried
to strike up a conversation at a jam session, gigs or any related events, males
would assume that I am interested in them as a male and not just as a musician.
Many males also often try to ask for my phone number or personal information by
disguising as a business offer.
Sep 16, 2010 9:06 PM
45 Surprisingly, I feel that my gender has been less of an issue since I started
performing professionally. I also happen to be in an area with a lot of female jazz
musicians and most of the environments I play in are very laid back and
supportive. I don't know that this would necessarily be true if I moved else where.
Sep 16, 2010 11:25 PM
46 In NYC, they skipped over my name at a jam session to play because they didn't
want to call up a woman.
Sep 18, 2010 3:23 AM
47 Mostly by the audience...I'm confronted often by men that are astonished that
women "can" play jazz or am descriminated against by the instruments I choose.
Most men whether in the band or audience, have some smart remark about the
fact that I play many low end instruments like bass trombone, tuba and string
bass. Usually they stereotype that I should be playing flute or that the instrument
is too big for me.
Sep 18, 2010 4:08 AM
48 I've been at it long enough to look back and realize that it is not much different
than the types of discriminatory behavior that all women experience in all
professions. I don't think any of it was specifically jazz-specific except for some
vibing from female singers.
Even now sometimes when I get called for a gig I'll ask the simple question "suit
or tux?" and the guy will become either aghast or smarmy and I can literally feel
him over the phone trying to figure out what in the world a female would wear to a
gig or even worse, getting all specific with me about how hot or how elegant he
wants me to look in my black dress. Yuck. So once I figure out whether it's suit or
tux, I'll wear a suit or a tux.
I used to wear dresses to gigs when I was younger and cuter, until I noticed that
chick singers would often seem annoyed at my presence on the bandstand. It
really wasn't worth having to deal with that and that's why I started wearing suits
or a tux, depending on the gig. Problem solved.
Sep 20, 2010 1:11 PM
49 I was asked to go on tour with a professional well known musician, not sure if I
should list her name here, but ultimately, she ended up choosing a man to take
my place because all the musicians were going to have to help drive the bus and
she didn't think that women could drive well.
I have played at many gigs where men comment more on my appearance than
my playing, where they avoid eye contact and don't introduce themselves to me
like they do my male colleagues.
I have definitely been in professional situations where it becomes more and more
clear that the male's main interest is sexual and musical. I think I am pretty good
at setting clear boundaries and making it clear that this is not something that I am
interested in.
Sep 21, 2010 6:16 PM
1. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the
Please explain
1 no way. I really think that we as women in jazz cannot make ourselves out to be
victims, and we control our own experience. Sometimes I think women create
these things in their head-- like I play in this all woman band, and often we'll be at
a soundcheck for a show and the sound guy will be being kind of a jerk, and the
woman who sits next to me would always say "he's such a sexist! I can't believe
he's being such a jerk just because we're women." And I'd be thinking to myself,
well, maybe he's a just a jerk! I mean, to everyone! So I tend to just not see those
things, maybe because I choose not to include them in my experience of the world
around me.
Sep 12, 2010 4:01 PM
25 of 26
Please explain
2 I have had to deal with it, and made myself figure out how to cope through honest
statements and often removing myself from situations which were not beneficial to
me.
Sep 12, 2010 5:39 PM
3 See prior answer Sep 12, 2010 9:24 PM
4 I don't encounter discrimination so much from working with musicians in the
community. Usually we have a mutual respect for each other, and if anything,
being young and female has been an advantage for me. People are more likely to
remember you and call you for work. I don't encounter sexual advances often,
and if I do, I find I can deal with it myself.
Sep 12, 2010 11:33 PM
5 It has somewhat because the discrimination turns me off from actually going to
the gigs where I know I can find a spot and play. Because if they are more likely to
choose a male counterpart, then what's the point of going? Tolerance of the
sexual discrimination is limiting, albeit my high level of patience with my male
counterparts.
Sep 13, 2010 2:29 PM
6 Sure, negative experiences have definitely made me very cautious about what
groups I get involved with. These experiences have also intimidated me. It's
harder to take risks and put myself out.
Sep 13, 2010 3:36 PM
7 it's made things difficult at times, but i've learned how to deal with those
comments when they arise, and the vast majority of the jazz community has my
back and will call other people out when those comments come up.
Sep 13, 2010 5:25 PM
8 I see that guys tend to pick other guys to play drums with more often than me.
Even if I'm good, they still pick someone else to play with them. I think it has to do
with me being female. I don't get asked to play too many gigs. I wish they would
because I have a lot to offer musically.
Sep 13, 2010 5:45 PM
9 Not that I have been made aware of-- however, it is possible that others have
limited my involvement
Sep 13, 2010 8:15 PM
10 Sometimes I dread going out, not knowing what will be said, what advances will
be made--I just know to expect something. So, although I have many friends and
am a social person, I find myself keeping my distance from certain musicians.
Sep 13, 2010 11:21 PM
11 I try for that not to happen but the truth is, after these situations, we kind of loose
our interest to play again on some of these places. And we need the money! :)
Sep 14, 2010 12:51 PM
12 I rarely go to jam sessions because of the negative behavior I have experienced
at them.
Sep 14, 2010 4:11 PM
13 I am cast aside as another girl saxophone player. Sep 14, 2010 9:56 PM
14 No, I still feel active in the jazz community. It's motivating to feel like you have to
prove yourself even if it gets tiring.
Sep 15, 2010 12:01 AM
15 Jazz has limited my participation in the jazz community! I don't play strictly just
jazz anymore, tho it really influences the music i play and write. I don't believe this
is due to any discrimination, I just wanted to make new music. I don't feel so much
discrimination in the music scenes that I play in (blues, soul, afro) but I think that
is because i am mostly playing in my band where I am the leader. The very real
imbalance of numbers of male versus female musicians has however been a
HUGE motivation for me, I'm determined to help prove that girls can play and
write music just as well as guys. There should be more of us. I'm not sure why
this imbalance exists and if it is because of discrimination then I think this is a very
important project! I would love to find more solidarity with other women musicians
but sadly I do not come across that many in my genres.
Sep 15, 2010 3:29 AM
16 I don't really like the vibe at jam sessions Sep 15, 2010 4:15 AM
17 I feel like I haven't been a part o the family or included in the same way that men
include each other...I've never had the opportunity to live with other jazz
musicians because thy didn't way to live with a girl...
Sep 15, 2010 5:03 AM
18 Often sexual harassment comments from audience members at clubs/pubs etc Sep 15, 2010 1:26 PM
26 of 26
Please explain
19 Yes, I have turned down some gigs that were offered to me because I knew that
Will had already been booked to play on those gigs.
Also, I have also stopped myself from going to see friends play their gigs,
because I knew that Will would be playing drums on those gigs.
Both of the above situations have occurred on a number of occasions.
Sep 15, 2010 2:14 PM
20 Yes, part of the reason why I stopped going to jam sessions is because of this.
at jam sessions, I think that the competition is so intense that people become
more judgemental about each other,
and I felt numerous times that I was discriminated and isolated from jazz men.
Now I only play at my gigs with people I know.
Sep 15, 2010 4:15 PM
21 I think I would be more interested in participating in jam sessions and soliciting
gigs if I didn't have to constantly overcome the expectation either that I'm a
vocalist or a beginner
Sep 15, 2010 4:16 PM
22 I stopped playing straight-ahead jazz for many years simply because it was
annoying to be an outsider. The avant-garde jazz community is far more open-
minded, and I have never experienced any discrimination whatsoever.
Professionally I still lean towards the more experimental side of jazz. Would it
have been different had I been male? It's hard to say, but often I think it would be.
Sep 15, 2010 5:24 PM
23 As tough as it is sometimes I just keep pushing. I'll never let the fact that I'm a girl
stop me from doing what I want to do.
Sep 15, 2010 6:32 PM
24 I am somewhat introverted by nature, so it's rare that I will "hang out" or go to the
jam sessions. But when I do, everyone there is cool. They treat me well. ;^)
Sep 15, 2010 10:51 PM
25 Nearly all the work I have had in the professional jazz world I have initiated
myself, or I have been hired by other female musicians. It is very rare that I have
been hired by a male bandleader.
Sep 16, 2010 2:57 AM
26 I avoid jam sessions all together. Generally, I feel ostracized from the jazz
community which is a man's world in which I clearly don't fit in.
Sep 16, 2010 4:41 AM
27 it's not very easy to make friends since most of them are male,which does not
help further participation in the community.
Sep 16, 2010 2:32 PM
28 to a certain level. sometimes i feel that certain colleagues of mine prefer a male
instrumentists.
Sep 16, 2010 2:46 PM
29 Some clubs, I feel reluctant to go because of the experiences I've had at their jam
sessions. Other sessions and events also, I don't feel comfortable to go, at lease
by myself.
Sep 16, 2010 9:08 PM
30 I feel intimidated to go to clubs or sessions where I know I will be one of few
women.
Sep 18, 2010 3:25 AM
31 I doubt it, but who knows... Sometimes I think about it. I've had other male
musicians tell me before that there are men that probably descriminate against
me because I'm a woman.
Sep 18, 2010 4:10 AM
32 When I first started signing up to play at public jam sessions in clubs they would
sometimes skip over my name even though they had no idea whether I could play
or not. I never said anything because I was kind of relieved that I didn't have to
play after all.
Female musicians can make their own opportunities as bandleaders. Club
owners are sometimes extra receptive to female based groups because it is still a
little unusual. So we get a little reverse discrimination working for us from time to
time.
Sep 20, 2010 1:24 PM
33 A little bit - it has just become more of a priority for me to seek out people to play
with who are respectful - there are plenty of these people out there too. I have
less and less tolerance for feeling discriminated against, and so I tend to leave
those situations very quickly, even if it could be a good professional opportunity.
Sep 21, 2010 6:18 PM

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Billy B
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Posted: 13 Sep 2010 08:26 Post subject: Survey


As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting an online survey on
gender discrimination in instrumental jazz.

ARIEL ALEXANDER

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Posted: 13 Sep 2010 10:51 Post subject: Re: Survey

By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz
majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging
in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?
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bs
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have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight
years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?

My thoughts exactly....
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trumpet7015
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Posted: 13 Sep 2010 10:59 Post subject:

The only discriminating I ever see is based on how you play.

Play your ass off, good things happen.

Don't, and they don't.

Every band I see is a real mix, and at least out here, the only thing people care about is can you play - and
also that you are not a world class a hole, lol.

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By requesting that we forward this information specifically to "female jazz instrumentalists that
have been jazz majors OR minors at a university or community college within the last eight
years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination in instrumental jazz?

Exactly.

Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already pointed this
out to you.

Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-earned money
during this time of financial hardship.
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RandyTX
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markp wrote:
Your premise is flawed and biased from the outset. Your faculty supervisors should have already
pointed this out to you.

Now you understand exactly how the nightly news broadcasts' "polling data" is collected.
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I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project. He said it is
part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to
find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.
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I wonder how popular Diana Krall would be if it she wasn't female.

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tptptp
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There are certainly those who have "made it" but I suspect it is still harder for a woman to be accepted in
many environments, and harder for a woman to feel equal respect. There's a news story today about a
reporter allegedly being harassed by the Jets.
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markp
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tptptp wrote:
I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a reasonable project.
He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of gender bias in the jazz world, and
it would be interesting to find out how women in the middle of it feel about the issue and how
they have been effected.

Yeah, but WHO CARES!

I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the fishing lure business, the basket weaving business and
the pet grooming business.

Boo-hoo!

I have a daughter in high-school all primed to go into college. I love her with all my heart and want her to
achieve in any field she chooses. If I really believed that her prospects would be diminished by bias, then I
would join in big-time with you wussy liberal bed-wetters and whiners.

But I don't buy it, and neither does my liberal, feminist sax-playing wife.

Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohortf their gender has ever
enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous state of our nation at present.

So please--consider getting a real job.
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Asking how popular Diana Krall would be if she wasn't female is like asking what chairs would look like if your
knees bent the other way.
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starkadder
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If gender discrimination in fact does not exits, won't his research uncover this? And if it does exists, won't it
shed a helpful light on whether it is pervasive or isolated, and just how bad things are?

Now go back to yelling at the kids on your lawn...

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Crazy Finn
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jhatpro wrote:
Asking how popular Diana Krall would be if she wasn't female is like asking what chairs would
look like if your knees bent the other way.

Location: Twin
Cities,
Minnesota

Since female artists NEVER capitalize on their attractiveness...
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Yeah, men never do that.

Oh wait...
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trptdork
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whiners" doesn't make the issue non-existent. It only makes you insensitive.

And to balance this argument, I've certainly seen it go the other way.

Case in point, a scenario we've all seen more than once: Pretty girl with a great body (who clearly utilizes it to
her advantage), BUT....only marginally good technique, NOOOOO soul and can't improvise...

Still on the gig.

Or...Hello? Boat gig? Female leads in the shows are usually ex-dancers, that can only somewhat carry a tune.
Past their dancing prime, but still a sexual commodity.

Wouldn't happen that way with a dude.

Sexism isn't just guys being jerks. It's women thinking about self promotion, men having ulterior motives in
hiring practices, and people not caring about bigger issues. But it's always going to be that way, as long as it's
a "biz".

IMHO

Just sayin'.
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Perfectly reasonable to me. The candidate is likely looking for experiences that are specific to the sample
being studied. None of you know what the survey consists of, and my guess, which is no better or worse than
any of yours, is that the questionnaire regards experiences specific to the target sample.

Anyways, if you don't agree with the methodology, as little as has been divulged here, fine, don't pass it on.
But you have far too little information to go on to condemn it.
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tptptp
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markp wrote:
tptptp wrote:
I must be dense, or maybe I didn't read the post correctly, but it seems like a
reasonable project. He said it is part of his research. I'll bet there has been a lot of
gender bias in the jazz world, and it would be interesting to find out how women in
the middle of it feel about the issue and how they have been effected.

Yeah, but WHO CARES!

I'm sure there has been a lot of "gender bias" in the fishing lure business, the basket weaving
business and the pet grooming business.

Boo-hoo!

I have a daughter in high-school all primed to go into college. I love her with all my heart and
want her to achieve in any field she chooses. If I really believed that her prospects would be
diminished by bias, then I would join in big-time with you wussy liberal bed-wetters and whiners.

But I don't buy it, and neither does my liberal, feminist sax-playing wife.

Females in the U.S.A. today have the greatest prospects for success of any cohortf their gender
has ever enjoyed in the history of mankind--in spite of the horrendous state of our nation at
present.

So please--consider getting a real job.

Wow. Your daughter's prospects will be influenced by bias of many types, because she will deal with biased
people. Since when did gathering information become equivalent to bedwetting and whining? Opportunities in

2010 are available to more people than in the past exactly because some were interested in obtaining and
revealing data, and the data pricked the hearts of enough people to bring about change.
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I think some of you are jumping to conclusions. I'll bet this is for a research design class. It looks like Ariel
(who apparently is a female and NOT Billy B) wants to collect survey data regarding the perceptions of female
collegiate jazz musicians toward issues of gender discrimination. She has determined that she wishes to study
a population of females, has appropriately selected a female sample..... that would make sense. Since online
survey instruments by definition negate random sampling or assignment, that particular delimitation must
have been considered when the survey approach was selected.

If this were for a dissertation proposal, of course the methodology could be problematic, and she'd potentially
lose a lot of data from men that she could use IF her primary hypothesis was found untenable.

Looking at her website, I see that she is pursuing her doctorate at USC. If this was at the heart of a
dissertation proposal, she would most likely already have achieved doctoral candidate status before writing in
earnest... something that doesn't usually happen during the 2nd week of September. Doctoral candidates are
usually quite proud of achieving that status, and would certainly put that on their website if such was the
case. But she did not.

So I'll bet she's getting going on her coursework, and is looking for a little help increasing the size of her
sample. That's all...

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The Kraken
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BeboppinFool wrote:
college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination
in instrumental jazz?

Exactly.


Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-
earned money during this time of financial hardship.

WOW !! Thats RAW !!!
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veery715
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Assuming makes a$$es out of you and me.

Who knows how Ariel is paying for school? Don't assume it is her parents.

If we find the survey plausible, don't assume we are liberals and/or whiners. And don't assume you know how

I have read enough posts and threads on the subject of female trumpet players - Alison Balsom, Tine Thing
Helseth, in particular, to know that those of us who aren't female (maybe I should say who like girls) are
definitely affected by more than just the way they play, though many will deny it. Gender bias is what it is and
will always be what it is because of the undeniable facts that make up the human condition. That we are
sexual creatures is completely inescapable, and it is part and parcel of all we, as humans, do.

I am not really surpirsed at the commotion generated by Billy B's post, because it speaks 100% to my last
paragraph. But a little restraint might be appropriate. However, this is a trumpet players forum, so I guess I
am not being realistic. One thing we are - me included - is opinionated.
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Billy B
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You GUYS should read the survey before shooting off your mouths.

What a bunch of pigs!

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BeboppinFool
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Billy B wrote:


I ask a simple question and am accused of shooting off my mouth and am then called a pig?

Congratulations, Bergren. Any credibility you may have ever had with me is now gone forever.
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veery715
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I don't think he meant you (or me), Rich, but it caught me a bit off balance too.
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The Kraken
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veery715 wrote:
I don't think he meant you (or me), Rich, but it caught me a bit off balance too.

I think he might have been imitating Mel Gibson with that commit!!!
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I can sympathize with the OP, the first bunch of responces were decidedly negative, assumed the worse or
were otherwise critical which kind of took me by suprise too. It's research on a subject I certainly care about
and I think the author of the study deserves the benefit of the doubt. On the up side, since the opening salvos
a majority of responces have been either supportive or neutral. I hope Ariel doesn't abondon her efforts on
our account.
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Combining the first and last OP's posts, here we go:


As part of my doctoral research at the University of Southern California, I am conducting an online survey on gender discrimination in
instrumental jazz.

I'm hoping you can do me a favor by forwarding this email on to any female jazz instrumentalists that have been jazz majors OR
minors at a university or community college within the last eight years.

The link for the online survey is:

Thanks very much,

ARIEL ALEXANDER


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cheiden
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Why the surprise? Billy lets Ariel post a sincere request and initially gets attacked followed by posts about how
female trumpet players cash in on their looks. Billy takes exception to the harsh treatment and posts an angry
retort. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, I was annoyed too.

That said I do hope Ariel and Billy will appreciate that more people then not are indeed supportive.
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etc-etc
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2. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR graduate) or have
you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight ( 8 ) years?

3. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz majors or
minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS ONLY-- questions about faculty members will be
later in survey)




5. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in school-related
activities?

Please explain

6. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty members at
your university?

7. Did you report any of these instances to other faculty members or the administration?


8. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos, private
teachers, advisors, etc.?

Please explain

9. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz world
(gigs, jam sessions)?

10. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz
community?

Thank you so much for your participation. It is much appreciated!

Last edited by etc-etc on 15 Sep 2010 17:52; edited 1 time in total

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markp
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Pig! Pig?

How DARE you sir!

I insist upon being referred to by my FULL title, which must include the following:

racist, homophobe, anti-environment, pro-rich, bigot, clinger to guns and religion, Neanderthal, knuckle-
dragger, etc....

"Pig" doesn't even scratch the surface!

But most of all, call me by my proudest title--POLITICALLY INCORRECT.

OINK!
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The Kraken
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WOW !!

And the hits just keep on coming...........................
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Crazy Finn
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markp wrote:
BeboppinFool wrote:
college within the last eight years," isn't he himself engaging in gender discrimination
in instrumental jazz?

Exactly.


Go back to the drawing board. Or better yet, find a better way to spend your parents hard-
earned money during this time of financial hardship.

Well, I fail to see how this is a flawed premise. Perhaps you folks could explain it to me.

When a person wonders if a group is experiencing discrimination - you have to take a survey of the opinions
of that group, don't you? Isn't this exactly that? It might be interesting to ask the general population of that
area as well about their thoughts, though it's unlikely that they'll feel they're discriminating against anyone,
whether they actually are or not. Who is going to actually admit that, especially nowadays? That'll never
happen. A survey that shows that people feel like they are being discriminated against doesn't prove that it
happens either, but it's a place to start.

Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they know about a thing about
discrimination. Honestly. What a joke.
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Crazy Finn wrote:
Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they know about a
thing about discrimination. Honestly. What a joke.

What makes you think we're all white! I'm offended. No, wait...I am mostly white...nevermind.
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Crazy Finn
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cheiden wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
Also, speaking as a white guy, I find it sad that a bunch of white guys think they
know about a thing about discrimination. Honestly. What a joke.

What makes you think we're all white! I'm offended. No, wait...I am mostly white...nevermind.

Like I said, I doubt white guys know the first thing about bias - since it's highly unlikely they've ever
experienced it in their life. I sure don't.

Perhaps he's right. Is there anything wrong with a survey to find out?
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In 1970, we had a girl bass player in our high school jazz band and a girl drummer in the marching band. This
was the same 1970's that UC Berkley did not allow females to participate in their marching band --period.

The point being, is that there were plenty of very qualified male bass players that wanted to be in the HS Jazz
band back then -- but they selected a female based on her playing skills and performance. There was certainly
no discrimination taking place way back then -- except in the incubator of liberalism -- US Berkely.
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Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy have to do
around here to get your attention?

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We know a lot about bias - from the delivery end, guaranteed. Only thing is, it doesn't feel the same.

Anyway, I much prefer flippers to finns. Get my seal of approval?
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Bruin wrote:
Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy
have to do around here to get your attention?

What politics, Bruin? You are totally off base. Politics was not a part of this thread, with the exception of your
mention.
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veery715 wrote:
We know a lot about bias - from the delivery end, guaranteed. Only thing is, it doesn't feel the
same.

Anyway, I much prefer flippers to finns. Get my seal of approval?

Gee thanks. Heh.

Indeed. I discriminate at the grocery store or Target, by often choosing the line with the cute checkout girl.

Also, I went back and read your long post at the bottom of the last page. Spot on - much better written than
mine.
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Hey, have you guys seen Cece Worrall-Rubin"s new photos an FB? She chose a really good one for her profile
shot. She calls it "Saxual". I bet even her husband likes it! Not so sure about the folks at her church...

Oh, yeah! Tomorrow night at the Famous Jazz club in Thousand Oakes, Cece will be a marquis feature in Rex
Merriweather's "Not Your Daddy's Big Band" along with Anne King on lead trumpet, fresh back from touring
with Rod Stuart.

What were we talking about???

Brian
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Bruin wrote:
Yo (whistle!), Moderator! I thought you have a "NO POLITICS" rule in this joint. What does a guy
have to do around here to get your attention?

Wuss.
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For more information on discrimination, see the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission
(http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html)

1. Are you an instrumentalist?

2. Are you currently a jazz major or minor at a university (undergraduate OR
graduate) or have you been a jazz major or minor at a university in the last eight ( 8
) years?

3. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from other jazz
majors or minors at your university? (NOTE: YOUR PEERS ONLY-- questions about
faculty members will be later in survey)




5. Has this or did this sexual discrimination limit your willingness to be involved in
school-related activities?

Please explain

6. Have you experienced or did you experience sexual discrimination from faculty
members at your university?

administration?


8. Did this or has this discrimination limited your choices on certain classes, combos,
private teachers, advisors, etc.?

Please explain

9. Have you experienced discrimination based on your gender in the professional jazz
world (gigs, jam sessions)?

10. Has the discrimination you have experienced limited your participation in the jazz
community?

Thank you so much for your participation. It is much appreciated!

Aren't you ashamed to declare yourself a "doctoral student" while submitting this simplistic drivel to the
worldwide trumpeting community?

I sure would be.

When my brother was getting his "doctoral" degree in pharmacology, he had to design experiments testing
the effects of various drugs on the brain receptors of epilepsy patients which involved dozens of staff and
hundreds of experimental animals.

Now that he teaches in a medical school, his students, who are learning to be medical "doctors" must learn to
deliver babies and do brain surgery.

At M.I.T. and other such institutions, "doctoral" students are plotting the architecture of the human genome.

And here you are, passing around a politically correct survey that could have been designed by a high school
student in her political science class.

How pathetic.

C'mon baby. You and your stuffy professors should get over yourselves and stop trying so hard to be
"relevant."

Jazz is art. Jazz is fun. Jazz is just a teeny, tiny little dying form of enjoyment that only a microcosm of the
World gives a hoot about.

Go learn a new lick or write and new tune. Leave the navel-gazing to the Womens' Studies department.
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Mark, there is a chance that this survey is an assignment for a survey research course at USC, and/or just

Location: L.A.
No, survey research is not the hard sciences like the kinds you mentioned, obviously. But, it definitely has its
place, and can make significant contributions to our understanding of phenomena, and hopefully helps us find
answers to some of our society's problems.

And, you may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But, there's no reason to
berate her as you have. Refraining from such behavior isn't political correctness, but rather being courteous
and a gentleman; behavior that I assume both you and I would appreciate from men who come into contact
with our high school, and college bound, daughters.
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You sound like a nice cat, Bruin, and you're tugging on my heartstrings and appealing to my better angels.

But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever it rears its
ugly head.

The innocuous doctoral survey of today will give rise to the quotas and mandatory sensitivity training of
tomorrow.

The notion that some schools may institute requirements for concerts--such as at least one
arrangement/composition by a female per concert; or at least two solos by females is not at all far-fetched. In
my own community, the University of California, Riverside is announcing a new push for "diversity." Too many
Asians from what I understand.

Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.

Just for the record, I'd be happy to have any female in my band....as long as she doesn't play better than
me......and if she shaves her armpits.
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shofarguy
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Bruin wrote:
Mark, there is a chance that this survey is an assignment for a survey research course at USC,
and/or just exploratory research to elucidate some cultural domains underlying her qualitative
data for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis of
future, collected qualitative data. Ariel stated that this was "part of her doctoral research" which
could mean anything. I seriously doubt that this instrument is her dissertation; not at USC. Also,
Mark, not all students enter doctoral programs as adept researchers. They learn a great deal
about research design, statistics, etc. during their doctoral years and are - hopefully - carefully
guided by their academic and dissertation advisor(s), which you may know since your brother
earned his doctorate.

No, survey research is not the hard sciences like the kinds you mentioned, obviously. But, it
definitely has its place, and can make significant contributions to our understanding of
phenomena, and hopefully helps us find answers to some of our society's problems.

And, you may not appreciate Ariel's research, and you may critique it as you wish. But, there's no
reason to berate her as you have. Refraining from such behavior isn't political correctness, but
rather being courteous and a gentleman; behavior that I assume both you and I would appreciate
from men who come into contact with our high school, and college bound, daughters.

You GO, Herb! Your mom's smiling (or, is it rolling on a cloud in laughter) right now.

Brian
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To Ariel ( if you are still reading posts on this thread),

I think what you ran into here are reactions based on what is perceived by many as a current cultural
onslaught against the normal, healthy male in society. We are bombarded by messages that tear down our
efforts to provide for our families, parent our children, love our wives, even stand upon our principles, or just
try to get along with people.

In my lifetime, I have seen vast improvements in racial perceptions, the acceptance of women and the
recognition of their value in the marketplace, even the environment. But none of this has resulted in any
praise for our efforts or the obvious results. On the other hand, we are expected to bear up under increased
scrutiny and disgust.

It has become obvious to many of us that there is only a desire to tear down, and no desire to build up, as far
as it concerns those things that make a person a man.

I regret that you received such a vehement rejection from some of our members. We come here to Trumpet
Herald to enjoy camaraderie, a little seclusion from the challenges we face, and to breath a little freer than we
are allowed to do elsewhere. We even love it that there are women members and wouldn't want this
community to be without them.

Your request was made with polity and dignity, but the very premise of the survey you presented furthered
the collective accusations of which we have grown so weary.

Please forgive us our shortcomings. We are not "pigs", we are just men. The same anger you experienced, in
response to your request, has kept your home and country safe and your university free to survey just what
sort of "brutes" we really are.

Brian
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Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original poster, and
are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of the responses would
imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first
place.
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To the OP - unfortunately I'm of no help since I don't know anyone included in your criterion. That says
something, doesn't it?

To the rest - I'm certainly very familiar with man-bashing and I've certainly had to stand up against it from
time to time. But it's a stretch to assume a scholastic survey will result in anything anti-male. Even so, are we
really at the stage of this issue to assume that men in all generality are more victimized by PC zeal than
women are from gender discrimination? Are men all that often chastized for being brutish and insensitive?
Sure. When so accused does that EVER result in anything consequential like personal intimdation or
professional exclusion? I doubt it.
Quote:
But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever
it rears its ugly head.

Intollerance and ignorance are the banes of our society. EXCESS political correctness is just a nusicence that
people like to rail against. And just because it's anti-PC doesn't mean we should all go out and do it.
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Cunuckle
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First off, the last three posts are spot on. Thank you. I feel that the response of some has proven the need for
this type of study.

With respect to the survey methodology used, the student is using acceptable qualitative research methods
here. I expect that this research is at a very early stage and that the student/researcher is attempting to
develop broad themes that will be researched further. To compare this research methodology to
pharmacology research shows incredible ignorance on that poster's part and little to no knowledge of social
research methodology.
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Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with courtesy and
civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an ill-conceived premise, and
it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe. I understand that it is easy to
be angry these days, even though such anger only damages those who harbor it.

An apology is due to Ariel, and to Billy B., especially IMO from markp, who really needs to get over what it is
that is eating at him.
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kehaulani wrote:
Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original
poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of
the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the
purpose of the survey in the first place.

Sexual bias is the dirty little secret of civil rights. Women are paid less for the same work.They are passed up
for promotions more often. But it seems less attention is paid these injustices than when race is involved. I
and every other person on this planet takes note of a person's apearance. But as human beings we should be
able to use our intellect to form an opinion.That is what makes us different from the lower species.

ie Don't think with your dick.
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Crazy Finn
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But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and scorn whenever
it rears its ugly head...

Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you see it.

veery715 wrote:
Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive with
courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what you consider an
ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering, rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face
diatribe.

Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political correctness is
also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.

This really sums it up:
kehaulani wrote:
Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about the original
poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this thread is that many of
the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and well, which gives credence to the
purpose of the survey in the first place.

Actions speak louder than words, but often words speak loudly about the one speaking them.

Good luck in your survey.
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Bill
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Crazy Finn wrote:
markp wrote:
But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and
scorn whenever it rears its ugly head...

Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you
see it.

veery715 wrote:
Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive
with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what
you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering,
rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe.

Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political
correctness is also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.

+1!!!
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bandstand and the classroom, those equal rights are officially extended, but ya know, it's still a man's world
out there and there's a long way to go until the scales tip even.

Over 25 years ago, I was hired to work at a local radio station in Los Angeles. The Gen Mgr, sales mgr., asst
Prog Director and many of the sales staff were women, and we all joked about it, but we on the air staff had
trump cards--- machismo and a microphone. The airstaff was almost exclusively white males, the outreach to
the listening public, and while we were on the tail end of feminine puppet strings, you should of heard some of
the chauvanistic crap coming out of our mouths. A shrink might of told us we were suffering from a form of
gynephobia, and they may not have been far off the mark, but female management not only put up with it,
they tacitly encouraged it!

Nevertheless Ariel, women can reach heights beyond their dreams and a study into discrimination
might/should include some reflections on psychology and other variables, fear, loathing, perceptions, the
times in which we live and jealousy among them. This kind of research resembles something drawn up in the
80's to develop the employee manuals so many of us sign and sigh over. I'm copying one off now for Tine
Thing and Cindy Bradley...

ed

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Bruin wrote:
"for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis "

or did you mean to say "performing an instrument and refining subsequent..." I'm just SAYIN'

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shofarguy
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Billy B wrote:

Sexual bias is the dirty little secret of civil rights. Women are paid less for the same work.They
are passed up for promotions more often. But it seems less attention is paid these injustices than
when race is involved. I and every other person on this planet takes note of a person's
apearance. But as human beings we should be able to use our intellect to form an opinion.That is
what makes us different from the lower species.

ie Don't think with your dick.

Ariel,

Your premise is not "a dirty little secret". I have no idea how old you are, but I'm sure your professors (or
their mothers) remember the days of women burning their bras in protest of what was termed "sexual
discrimination" back in the 1960s. Then again, perhaps they destroyed enough brain cells during those years
that they still think they are in the 1960s. Many of my generation did that sort of thing...

The same old hackneyed mantras are being repackaged and re-promoted because those who thrived on them
in the past have never grown beyond them. Things really are different now.

Case in point: Oprah Winfrey is both a woman and black and is recognized as the wealthiest, most beloved
woman in the entertainment business (at least). No such thing could have happened in the 1960s, 70s, or
perhaps even the 1980s. She makes her living being a woman.

Celine Dion took her talent and, in the middle of a generation of either masculinized women or sluttified girls
(pardon my choice of word inventions, but it's how I look at what happened in that time), made so much of
being truly feminine (actually making men feel special and valuable in our masculinity) that we clamored to
buy her CDs and tickets to her shows where she made untold millions.

I value women who are women. I chafe at women who try to be men. While it may be true that women still
don't get payed as much for the same work as men (somehow, lately I see a trend to hire women over men,
myself), I wonder why women want to do that work so much. Do you have so little respect for the feminine
value of a real lady that you must twist her into some grotesque caricature of a she-man? Personally, I long
for the day when women are free to be women again in America. I miss them.

Brian

p.s. If I wrote, "Don't point your tits at me!" you'd think less of me wouldn't you? Why is it somehow clever of
you, Doctor, to besmirch my anatomy? How does it make you more of a woman?
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EdMann wrote:
Bruin wrote:
"for the purposes of refining an instrument and performing subsequent content analysis "

or did you mean to say "performing an instrument and refining subsequent..." I'm just SAYIN'

Man, Ed (or did I mean to say "Ed Mann"?), I can always count on you for a laugh!

BTW, Brian, Ariel is not Billy B.
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markp
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Crazy Finn wrote:
markp wrote:
But....political correctness, which is the bane of our society, deserves ridicule and
scorn whenever it rears its ugly head...

Nope....here and now is where we make our stand. Wherever you are--whenever you
see it.

veery715 wrote:
Political correctness, or incorrectness for that matter, need not be mutually exclusive
with courtesy and civility. It is one thing to mount your soapbox and rail against what
you consider an ill-conceived premise, and it is another thing to do so in a blistering,
rude, nasty, slap-in-the-face diatribe.

Indeed. Political correctness is often silly and banal. Unfortunately, "outrage" against political
correctness is also frequently just an excuse to act like a complete jerk.

This really sums it up:
kehaulani wrote:
Hmm. Many comments seem to say way more about those commenting than about
the original poster, and are filled with agendas and assumptions. And the irony to this
thread is that many of the responses would imply that sexual bias is surely alive and
well, which gives credence to the purpose of the survey in the first place.

Actions speak louder than words, but often words speak loudly about the one speaking them.

Good luck in your survey.

They said the same thing to my Grandpa Hienrich back in Bavaria in the 1930s. "Heinrich," they said, "don't
be so rude to those nice blond-haired, blue-eyed boys goose-stepping down the street in their brown shirts!"

Tyranny creeps in politely on soft cat paws. But when the jack-booted thugs are kicking down your doors to
verify that you have the requisite number of Maria Schnieder cds in your collection, you'll see what was hiding
behind those soft purrs and cuddly looks.

First, they came for the rude misogynists, but because I was not a rude misogynist, I said nothing.....then
they came for ME!

You guys are just begging for P.E.T.A. to come knocking at the door with their survey about how trumpet-
playing hurts dogs' sensitive ears and causes them emotional distress. Don't say I didn't warn you!

First, they came for the rude misogynists, but because I was not a rude misogynist, I said nothing.....then
they came for ME!

You guys are just begging for P.E.T.A. to come knocking at the door with their survey about how trumpet-
playing hurts dogs' sensitive ears and causes them emotional distress. Don't say I didn't warn you!

I'll keep looking out for your liberty, even if you don't want me to because......

There's a mightly wind a blowin....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0hyExZ9Dfo

...and it's blowin' you and me.
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39
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APPENDIX B: SURVEY AND RESPONSES
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APPENDIX C: TRUMPET HERALD BLOG

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Thesis Females Jazz PDF

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Where are the Gi rl s?

A look at the factors that limit female participation in instrumental jazz

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