Distancia Del Difusor Al Oyente Diffusion - Page 3 - AVS Forum

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Old 02-03-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
Terry,
> So much for a curved panel not being a "real"
diffuser. ;) <
Not hardly. :D
Seriously, from how far away were these tests
made? From across an auditorium, or within the
confines of a typical living room? Also, what
shape was the curved panel? A simple poly or one
of Peter D'Antonio's newer fancy shapes? Below is
one of the newer curved panels I'm referring to,
and these are not a simple poly curve.
But the bottom line is how do these diffusors
sound from a few feet away? You know I'm
objectivist through and through, but the audible
difference between a simple poly curved panel
and a real QRD is so great as to be undeniable.
For the third time, have any of you guys actually
tried listening? :D:D:D
--Ethan
http://www.rpginc.com/products/optic...g/opticur
1.jpg
Hi,
While I share Kevin's views that listening close to a
diffusors really wouldn't prove anything about the
suitability of a given diffusor or "deflector", to use Ethan's
term, in applications where the listener is further away, I
am beginning to share Ethan's skepticism regarding what
can be inferred from these polar diagrams.
I've been trying to make my way through Messrs
D'Antonio Cox's Technical Bulletin on the Design of
Overhead Canopies for Music and Speech Using the
Waveform System. So far I've seen a couple of
references that would suggest we need to exercise a bit of
caution before reaching conclusions regarding these
diffusion diagrams.
Here's an excerpt on what happens when you take these
measurements close to the diffusor (and I'll use that term
broadly because even flat, hard non-absorbent surfaces
will become excellent diffusors at sufficiently low
frequencies.)
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Quote:
Figure 6 shows how the scattered pressure
distribution varies for a high frequency, as the
receiver approaches the panel. At 0.8m from the
panel, the receiver arc diameter is actually
smaller than the panel width. For all receivers on
the 0.8m arc, the scattered pressure is high,
because for every receiver there is a geometric
reflection point on the panel giving a strong
specular reflection. As the receiver arc moves
further from the panel, fewer receivers get a
strong reflection, eventually the far field response
is achieved.
Figure 6 implies that, close to the panel, the
flat surface is good at dispersing sound. In
particular, good coverage is achieved
because all receivers get similar energy in
the reflection. Does this imply that a plane
surface is a good diffuser as it is dispersing
scattered energy evenly to all receivers? The
answer is no, because, in reality, the plots in
Figure 6 are only telling part of the story.
The polar plots of scattered energy do not
show how the direct and reflected sounds
interfere, or the effect this has on the sound
heard by the listener. In fact, a comb filter
response would result, and this is likely to
color the sound due to changes in emphasis
of different frequency components.
Figure 6
Here's an other excerpt regarding cylindrical diffusors.
Quote:
Single simple curved panel response
A single cylinder is an efficient disperser of sound
in one plane, and a single sphere is efficient at
dispersing hemispherically. They generate
responses that mimic the behavior of radiating
line and point sources respectively. Figure 10
shows the scattering from a semicylinder as a
function of frequency. The radial axis range of
this graph is only 20dB, so at all frequencies, the
response from the semicylinder is fairly
omnidirectional. The 400Hz line is where the
wavelength is roughly the width of the
semicylinder, and so some finite width diffraction
lobing effects are seen. The lowest frequency,
40Hz, is not omnidirectional, because the rear of
the semicylinder becomes important. It would be
omnidirectional if a cylinder had been modeled. At
the two highest frequencies, the scattered level
only varies by 2-3dB over the receiver arc.
It might appear that the cylinder is the ideal
diffuser - the Holy Grail of diffuser designs - but
this unfortunately is not the case. A single
cylinder on its own is rarely of much use. The
example given in Figure 10 was 0.5m deep,
already deeper than many architects allow, and it
was only 1m wide, not wide enough for most
applications.
...large cylinders and semicylinders produce comb
filtering similar to that from plane surfaces, albeit
the comb filtering variation is now over a slightly
smaller magnitude range. The comb filtering is
thought to give rise to the harsh sound that large
semicylinders generate, although a more detailed
set of subjective tests would be interesting and
could clarify the situation. Certainly,
semicylinders are an enigma, they appear to
be a near perfect diffuser from dispersion
graphs, but they do not sound like a perfect
diffuser.
post #62 of 67 Old 02-03-2006, 12:31 PM
Figure 10.
Larry
LarryLand Theater
Larry
You need to understand the difference between a small
room and a large room as far as diffuser usage goes.
A large room diffusers are not used to maintain ambiance
- they are used to disperse reflections over a broad
audience or orchestral area - so that everyone can hear
evenly with a diffuse sound field. The danger of creating a
diffuse sound field immediately is that reflections comb
filter with direct sound, but a second violinist needs to at
least hear the oboe...
In a small room your intent with a diffuser is to deflect the
sounds away from a small listening area - exactly the
opposite intent of that in a large room. Your goal is to hold
onto the reflections and disperse them about the room
avoiding the listener in just the earlier reflections. They
are saved for the later reflections to preserve ambience -
had absorbers been used the danger would have been of
going to far. But for early reflections in a small room
diffusers serve the same purpose as an absorber -
eliminate comb filtering by making sure reflections do not
immediately hit the listener at a high level. For surround
you want to eliminate the direct sound path entirely and
promote later reflection paths, for LCR you want to
preserve the direct sound path and diminish immediate
reflections.
You do not want to use the diffusor as sound
reinforcement as it would be used in a large performance
space.
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krasmuzik
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post #63 of 67 Old 02-03-2006, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik
Larry
You need to understand the difference between a
small room and a large room as far as diffuser
usage goes.
A large room diffusers are not used to maintain
ambiance - they are used to disperse reflections
over a broad audience or orchestral area - so that
everyone can hear evenly with a diffuse sound
field. The danger of creating a diffuse sound field
immediately is that reflections comb filter with
direct sound, but a second violinist needs to at
least hear the oboe...
In a small room your intent with a diffuser is to
deflect the sounds away from a small listening
area - exactly the opposite intent of that in a
large room. Your goal is to hold onto the
reflections and disperse them about the room
avoiding the listener in just the earlier reflections.
They are saved for the later reflections to
preserve ambience - had absorbers been used the
danger would have been of going to far. But for
early reflections in a small room diffusers serve
the same purpose as an absorber - eliminate
comb filtering by making sure reflections do not
immediately hit the listener at a high level. For
surround you want to eliminate the direct sound
path entirely and promote later reflection paths,
for LCR you want to preserve the direct sound
path and diminish immediate reflections.
You do not want to use the diffusor as sound
reinforcement as it would be used in a large
performance space.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the helpful explanation.
However, all I was attempting to point out, perhaps just to
the other laypersons reading this thread, is that merely
looking at a diffusion graph by itself won't tell us whether
the diffusor will sound good in our application.
It is for that reason, I have difficulty appreciating Ethan's
suggestion to talk into a diffusor. If I talk to a diffusor, up
close and personal, I have no doubt that even my
untrained, less-than-Golden ears will hear a lot of comb
filtering. Nevertheless, if we were to plot the diffusion
response at that close distance it would look almost
perfect regardless of how good or poor the design was.
Conversely, if we place that same diffusor, with
demonstrated audible comb filtering problems, an
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post #64 of 67
post #65 of 67
Old 02-03-2006, 02:18 PM
Old 02-03-2006, 04:32 PM
adequate distance away from the source and listeners, and
orient it correctly, then it is possible it may no longer
exhibit comb filtering problems.
In short, the point was that the diffusion graphs, by
themselves, tell us nothing about the potential for comb
filtering, and consequently they may not tell us how
"good" it will sound using them, particularly if they are
misapplied.
Larry
LarryLand Theater
Larry,
> If I talk to a diffusor, up close and personal, I have no
doubt that even my untrained, less-than-Golden ears will
hear a lot of comb filtering. <
But that's exactly my point - you won't hear comb filtering
with a real diffusor and you will with a simple curved
surface. I don't see why a "talk into" test is not useful
because diffusors in a small room are always close by. I
never meant you have to stand 2 inches away! Even
several feet away the difference between a real QRD
diffusor and a curved surface is very obvious. I'm
beginning to wonder how many folks here have any
experience at all with QRD diffusors, because the audible
difference is so compelling it makes this discussion rather
silly.
> Conversely, if we place that same diffusor, with
adequate distance away from the source and listeners, and
orient it correctly, then it is possible it may no longer
exhibit comb filtering problems. <
But comb filtering goes away with distance anyway
because the reflection becomes too soft to create
substantial nulls in the response.
> the point was that the diffusion graphs, by themselves,
tell us nothing about the potential for comb filtering, and
consequently they may not tell us how "good" it will sound
using them, particularly if they are misapplied. <
Exactly.
--Ethan
RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Ethan's Audio Expert book
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
> Conversely, if we place that same diffusor, with
adequate distance away from the source and
listeners, and orient it correctly, then it is possible
it may no longer exhibit comb filtering problems.
<
But comb filtering goes away with distance
anyway because the reflection becomes too soft
to create substantial nulls in the response.
Hi Ethan,
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post #66 of 67 Old 02-04-2006, 08:39 AM
There are a few conditions whereby human hearing can
not hear comb filtering even though reflections and direct
sound are present at the listening location, but raw
distance of a reflection is not one of them.
With the exception of extremes distances that render the
sound pressure level of the reflection below the threshold
of hearing, mere distance of a pure specular reflection will
not mitigate comb filtering. It is the relative distance
between the reflection and the direct sound that
determines whether comb filtering will be heard. The total
distance of the reflection to the listener must be about
three times the distance of the direct sound to produce the
9-10 dB difference in relative levels necessary to make the
peaks and nulls inaudible.
As was discussed earlier, the means by which good
diffusors make comb filtering inaudible is that they break
up the incident sound into many random reflections spread
spatially. This greatly reduces the total reflection energy
hitting each listener at a given time in relation to the direct
sound energy. In order for the diffused sound energy to be
sufficiently dispersed in a room to achieve this effect
requires a minimum amount of distance between the
diffusor and listener.
There are other means of mitigating comb filtering. If the
reflection hits a reflective surface at a very shallow angle
such that the total distance traveled by the reflection is
within about 1/3 inch of the direct sound, the first null will
be so high in frequency as to be beyond human hearing.
Likewise, at the other extreme if the delay duration
between the reflection is large in relation to the direct
sound, as in a large concert hall, the peaks and nulls will
be spaced so close together to be beyond the resolving
limits of human hearing.
Larry
LarryLand Theater
Larry,
> raw distance of a reflection is not one of them. <
Of course, it's the difference in distance. I know that. But
with a diffusor on the rear wall, the farther you are from it
the great the level difference because you're closer to the
speaker source and farther from the reflection.
> The total distance of the reflection to the listener must
be about three times the distance of the direct sound <
Right, and this is called the "three to one rule" by
recording engineers because the same problem happens
when more than one microphone captures the same
instrument.
> good diffusors make comb filtering inaudible ... greatly
reduces the total reflection energy <
Yes, and good diffusors also send different frequencies off
in different directions. I think I said something to that
effect back on page 1. ;)
> the first null will be so high in frequency as to be beyond
human hearing. <
Agreed.
> if the delay duration between the reflection is large in
relation to the direct sound, as in a large concert hall, the
peaks and nulls will be spaced so close together to be

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post #67 of 67

Old 02-04-2006, 08:44 AM

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beyond the resolving limits of human hearing. <
Well, at that point I believe it's called echo. :D
--Ethan
Terry,
Sorry, I meant to address this yesterday:
> The only speech sounds which have significant energy
as high as 7.5 kHz are some fricatives, like [s]. There are
no voiced sounds which go this high. <
I agree there is little significant energy that high, but there
is definitely some content at 10 KHz and even higher. Did
you ever boost the treble on a voice recording? A few
minutes with a parametric EQ will prove this.
--Ethan
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