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APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG

November 6, 1991 10 PM ET
Topic: GS Music Programs - Noisetracker and MusicStudio
Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM),
Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene)
Forum Consultants: Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt
(AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS)
Copyright (c) 1991 America Online
All Rights Reserved
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AFC Eddie Greg, how's your MS problem coming?

ELECTMUSIC Need further consulting... Joyce :)

AFL JoyceM What is the MS problem, Greg?

ELECTMUSIC Have you used the D5 for Midi Input into MStudio?
I seem to get the default note value for any rhythm I input?
ie. If I have a quarter note selected and play a whole note...
only a quarter note will appear on the screen

AFL JoyceM Rhythm from the D5 disk or your own rhythm input?

ELECTMUSIC My own rhythm

AFL JoyceM Hm....I will check that out. Don't remember it being a problem

ELECTMUSIC Yet my other Midi instrument works fine

AFL JoyceM I know I didn't have problems with the Yamaha. But will re-check
the D5.

ELECTMUSIC Yep, I didn't have any problem with my Yamaha either

It was just with the Roland

AFL JoyceM Eddie, do you have problems with your Roland and MStudio?

AFC Eddie No, not at all.

ELECTMUSIC Eddie... do you have any Yamaha equipment?

AFC Eddie I've used it with MStudio rarely, but without problem.
No Yamaha stuff, sorry.

AFL JoyceM Dan, we we will be discussing what is in our libraries tonight and
any other subject that arises.

AFC Eddie Bet Gene knows the answer to this one!

ELECTMUSIC Yea, I think so...Gene, quick question for ya

AFA Gene ok :)

ELECTMUSIC I tried to Midi in a D5 into MStudio and all it would display is

the default rhythm value...Example: If a quarter note was
 selcted and I played a whole note it would only display a
quarter note. Any ideas?

AFA Gene This is a problem with the MIDI signal that the D-5 sends. There's
really nothing that can be done about it that I know of. I've
used my D-5 that way since I first got it, and I've never been
able to find a way to get around the problem. It only occurs with
Music Studio, no other program.

ELECTMUSIC Its alos curious that Mwriter works fine. Ok... Thats good new..
well sort of

AFL JoyceM Greg, what happens if you you select an 8th note...I remember
doing that to solve a problem that I can't remember now why :)

ELECTMUSIC I was wondering if it was the computer or the setup

AFA Gene Actually, it's probably a problem with Music Studio's algorithm
for processing MIDI data, because as far as I know the D-5's MIDI
functions are 100% compatible with the industry standard.

ELECTMUSIC It will only display an eighth notethen, Joyce

AFC Eddie Then why no problem with the Yamaha or the D20?

ELECTMUSIC The Problem was when MStudio was developed the Midi standard was
still DEVELOPING :)

AFA Gene Dunno. No problem with any other commonly-used keyboard, either.
Strange.

AFL JoyceM Does a MIDI driver change this problem?

ELECTMUSIC Gene, I have heard of a couple other people who had this problem,
but its the first time it happened to me.

AFC Eddie Are you using MS's MIDI driver?

AFA Gene It's just something with MS (the actual code) and the D-5 that
doesn't jive perfectly.

ELECTMUSIC Yep, I agree Gene

ELECTMUSIC Remember when we had ALS online and they explained that they send
a Midi signal out to make sure an instrument is hooked up :)
Thats what caused Joyce's Yamaha to have MStudio crash

AFL JoyceM Yes....and I had one devil of a time getting the two to speak
(with the Yamaha) and had to count before I turned on the
Yamaha...16 - 20 seconds actually. It was a real hit and miss
proposition.

AFC Eddie A & L ?

ELECTMUSIC Audio Light and Sound

AFC Eddie Thanks.

AFL JoyceM Greg...I will try it out...also going to look at a note I have
about that..

AFC Eddie What did they produce?

ELECTMUSIC Developed MStudio for Activision

AFC Eddie Oh! I knew the name was familiar!

ELECTMUSIC That was the golden age of the GS :)

AFL JoyceM Remember, that Big Red Computer Club is soon to release
MusicStudio.. :)

AFC Eddie BRCC's add for Noisetracker talks about a manual!

ELECTMUSIC How about a discussion on NTracker

AFL JoyceM A manual for NoiseTracker,Eddie?

AFC Eddie That's what the add says. The program, a song disk and manual =
$10.

AFL JoyceM Where did you see the ad, Eddie?

AFC Eddie The latest InCider. Dec. issue. Page 67.

AFL JoyceM Oh, haven't gotten my inCider yet.

AFL JoyceM We will have BRCC here in AMS in January maybe

AFC Eddie Lots of good Apple II stuff in this issue. A complete index of
Apple II software released in 1991.
ELECTMUSIC Yea, I thought I detected a slow change over

AFL JoyceM Finally!

ELECTMUSIC Hey, Maybe I might renew my subsription

AFC Eddie I've heard a rumor that it will go back to all Apple II.

AFL JoyceM Like that rumor!

ELECTMUSIC I do like the glossy look...if it goes back to An Apple II mag

AFC Eddie I really like GS+ magazine.

ELECTMUSIC But. its not glossy :)

AFC Eddie One of these days I'll get around to writing a MIDI article for
it. It's never had that.

AFL JoyceM Great, Eddie.

AFC Eddie They asked me for one.

AFL JoyceM Let's talk about NoiseTracker if you all want...or whatever.
Still looking for my Ms notes
ELECTMUSIC Yea... I have a few questions Whats the story with the sound in
Ram? How do they get it there

AFA Gene You know the 64K DOC RAM? NoiseTracker stores its instruments in
regular RAM, therefore instead of a 64K limit, the limit is your
free memory! (so if you're someone like joyce, you can have a 4
meg grand piano sample!)

ELECTMUSIC But, I also see instruments in DOC Ram, Gene

AFC Eddie Why didn't anyone think of that before?

AFL JoyceM :)

AFA Gene NoiseTracker tries to place the instruments in the DOC ram when it
asks that question "Should 'I' try to move sounds into the
DOCRAM" or something like that. You can actually hit "cancel" on
that dialog and nothing will matter, cuz the program reads from
the system RAM for those songs. (You can hit the button labeled
"Ensoniq Soundram" and it will flip to system ram -- suddenly
you'll see like 12 instruments when only 4 could fit in the DOCram

AFC Eddie Thanks!

AFA Gene the cool thing is that MOD files have been around on the Amiga for
a loooong time, so there are a lot of good ones available. (there
are also a lot of duds too tho.)

ELECTMUSIC Gene...who and how is it determined the instruments go into Doc

Ram The user? or the composer

AFA Gene The program. :) Those music files were not made for the GS,
remember :)

AFL JoyceM Question. Can one create a MOD file without having an already
made file from say an Amiga?

ELECTMUSIC Oooooohhhh....I see, it only works with Amiga files

AFA Gene Nope. Once the "Load" and "save" options are implemented, we might
be able to.

AFC Eddie Can you compose on NT, as in SS?

AFA Gene Well, it also works with regular NoiseTracker files, but so far
there aren't that many and they were all made from within
NoiseTracker, so it was just a matter of loading the insts
straight into DOCram.

AFC Eddie How about SS songs on NT?

ELECTMUSIC Are the Amiga sound files ASIF? Yep, I tried SSMith into NT and it
worked fine and SSmith used ASIF

AFA Gene Dunno what format the amiga sound files are. Jim probably knows
more about the MOD file structure than I. Yep, NT is made to
handle SS directly.
AFC DYAJim MOD's are their own format - not asif or aiff...But I have heard
that AIFF is popular on the amiga, perhaps the instruments that
are combined in MODs were once individual AIFF's.

ELECTMUSIC Could we go back to MOd's on the Amiga for a second....

AFL JoyceM Sooo, we need a conversion program to convert SS, SL, etc files to
MOD or NT?

AFA Gene GMTA Jim, just about to say that.

AFC DYAJim We need several conversion programs right now :)

NT -> SS (if no ram based insts)

NT INST -> ASIF/AIFF

ELECTMUSIC On the Amiga... what do they use to reproduce sound? Also... is

the GS capable of better sound with the Ensoniq?

AFL JoyceM Could one just rename the file type to MOD and see what happens,
say with a MIDI file? or the like?

AFC DYAJim I doubt you can load midi files into nt :)

AFL JoyceM Gene, Greg...do you remember that program that Dennis was working
on to do some conversions...wonder it that would work? it was a
beta version and never was released?

AFA Gene In either case Greg, you're dealing with digitized samples, so it
would sound the same on either machine.... in fact, i'm not sure
on this, but it might...scratch that... the songfiles would
almost definitely sound a bit worse on the GS cuz they've gone
thru a conversion process that I'm not sure is 100% accurate.

ELECTMUSIC Is the Amiga 8 bit?

AFC DYAJim amoeba = 65k

AFC DYAJim How do you know they're converted? I've just heard lots that the
fidelity of the amoeba music chip is slightly cleaner and
clearer, but it can only do 4 oscs at once.

AFA Gene I mean when NT loads them in, it's converting the crunched sound
file format. (Not sure at all on this, just speculating)

AFC DYAJim Crunched sound file format ?

AFA Gene Whatever..... the mod :)

ELECTMUSIC Ahhhh... So the Amiga has a an amoeba nusic chip...

AFC DYAJim MODs aren't packed in any way to my knowledge

AFC Eddie CFF, haven't you heard, Jim?

AFC DYAJim CFF?

AFC Eddie Crunched File Format!

AFC DYAJim lol Eddie! :)

AFA Gene There goes that theory, then... dunno... all I know is that some
songs seem to sound clearer on the Amiga.

ELECTMUSIC what music software is being used on the Amiga to create these
files?

AFC DYAJim I think it's the amoeba sound chip, Gene. Clearer and cleaner, but
less powerful overall.

AFA Gene Maybe they're comparing it to a standard GS without noise

reduction. I'm sure with an Audio Animator's noise reduction the
GS has to sound sharper (than the Amiga, I mean :)

ELECTMUSIC Anyone know what music software is being used on the Amiga?

AFC DYAJim I mean, you can play the same digital waveform on two different
sound chips and chances are they'll play it slightly differently
due to different things in the chips.

ELECTMUSIC I am not too impressed with AAnimators quality Gene. They limit
frequency response.

AFA Gene I'm just talking about the noise reduction, not the digitizing
greg

AFA Gene Agreed Jim, which basically means the last 3 minutes of banter
were complete gibberish. :)

AFC DYAJim :)

ELECTMUSIC I feel the best digitizing is FSound

AFC DYAJim Too bad it went bye bye Greg :(

AFL JoyceM And you can'g get Fsound anymore!

AFA Gene I saw the logon.... weird, it said "COMPUTING's music and sound"
as if the Forums were a magazine or something.

ELECTMUSIC Isn't that the way...

AFC Eddie Yes, Gene, I saw that in a previous AMS banner.

ELECTMUSIC Soo... does anyone know what music software is creating these
files on the Amiga?

AFL JoyceM Weird, but no wyrm/banner? Sorry, Greg, I don't know.

AFC DYAJim I don't have an amoeba so I don't know

ELECTMUSIC Geez... some of the discussions in our forum seem be to from users
that know both computer platforms, as if they can create these
files and then port them over to the GS
AFL JoyceM So right now there is no way to convert to MOD files unless you
have an Amiga?

Drib do any of you guys have a Sonic Blaster?

ELECTMUSIC I have

AFC Eddie Many of us, do, Drib.

Drib figured, but I have to ask who

AFC Eddie Got a problem with it?

Drib Is it easy to digitize sounds>?

ELECTMUSIC I really like the concept of RAM based instruments!

AFC DYAJim IBM's can play MODs with soundblaster

AFC Eddie Real easy, if you have a microphone.

Drib I don't have one, but I want one, and am thinking about getting
one.

ELECTMUSIC Convenient is a better word

Drib okay, any microphone will do right?

AFC Eddie Yes, or another connection from your sound source to the
Blaster.

ELECTMUSIC OK, Jim that explains the interest MSDOS users have

AFC DYAJim Yep.. they have to buy addn'l hardware to play 'em; we don't :)

ELECTMUSIC :)

Drib and Do the speakers that you plug into them need to be self
powered?

AFC Eddie Right, Jim!

AFL JoyceM Another feather in the GS' hat!

AFC Eddie No, Drib, Blaster gives them Plenty of power!

Drib okay, guess I will go ahead and get one then

ELECTMUSIC In summary then...

AFA Gene Wondering... are there many Amiga users online wearing PCAO
clothes?

AFL JoyceM Great, Drib...and if you have problems, we are here to help you.

AFC Eddie Drib, I love my Sonic Blaster. You can get one for $59!
ELECTMUSIC only Amiga users can create the music and sound for Mod files

Drib Eddie, where? New????

AFL JoyceM $59 - where?

AFC Eddie Preferred Computing. 1-800-327-7234. $59.95 that is. New.

ELECTMUSIC we have NTracker to convert these files for Listening only

AFA Gene Exactly, greg... in its current form it's best suited as a
playback module.

Drib software and all right?

AFC Eddie Yes.

AFL JoyceM Good questions, Greg....and we have to rely on others to give is

these MOD files?

Drib great! I found one for $75 used! that's way more

AFL JoyceM The classical MOD file (can't remember its name) is good.

AFA Gene If AO didn't screw up we could simply tell users to use keyword
PMU and grab as many MOD files as they want.

AFC DYAJim Exactly Gene..

AFL JoyceM If one downloaded MOD files from, say an Amiga BBS, no conversions
needed? but can they be put on a regular ProDOS disk? and the
used with NT?

AFA Gene Yep.

AFC DYAJim I've downloaded MODs from an IBM bbs with no problems.

AFL JoyceM Ah...we have a big Amiga BBS here....hm...now if I can just find
the time :)

ELECTMUSIC Its interesting the FTA saw the need for this... speculating
why????

AFL JoyceM Jim, you going to write a MOD conversion program for us? hint
hint

AFC DYAJim Not enough time ! :) Who knows, really .. but not till next year
at least

AFA Gene FTA's always been into the Amiga.... this is just their first
major cross-over project.

AFC DYAJim Convert what exactly tho?

AFA Gene Nothing to convert with mod files, that's the beauty of it :)

AFC DYAJim I think FTA released it to go against the commericialization of

soundsmith
AFL JoyceM Converting SS and SynthLAB files to NT/MOD files. I like players
like NT, etc, but want to be able to compose files too.

AFC DYAJim Compose with SS, import into NT.

AFC Eddie Agreed, Joyce.

AFL JoyceM Right, Jim.

AFC Eddie SS is not really composing software. But maybe with MIDI...

AFL JoyceM right

AFC Eddie Then a conversion to NT might be something!

ELECTMUSIC Jim... how will SndSmith allow for Ram Based instruments when
converted into NT (in other words having a GS user break the 64k
barrier DOCRAM)

AFC DYAJim It won't. Lay down your midi in SS, then import to NT and add
embellishments (I.E. up to 7 normal ram tracks)

ELECTMUSIC SndSmith still limits the import of ASIF sounbd files to 64k,
right? <---- Not a real sndsmith user

AFC DYAJim Of course

ELECTMUSIC Geez, I would like to see the Amiga Music software they use to
create these Mod Files.

AFC Eddie -----------------------LOG OFF-------------------------