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. . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
Detectable warnings in parking lots
. . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
CS
. . . . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
01/31/2007
. . . . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
Are DW allowed to mark the transition from sidewalks onto parking lot surfaces
. . . . Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances
onsite? Because I just counted 5 onsite curb ramps with DW on all of them and
. . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances
all ramps transition only into the parking lot area, not the street. The FHWA
. . . . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances
language "from the sidewalk to the street" or "between the sidewalk and the
. . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
street" is being translated and implemented in a way perhaps unintended or even
. . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
harmful to persons with vision problems.
. . . . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
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. . . . Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
Detectable warnings in parking lots
Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
Detectable warnings in parking lots
Holly Henriksen
Detectable warnings in parking lots
02/01/2007
Detectable warnings in parking lots
The FHWA language also references the ADAAG guidelines, which require DW where
Detectable warnings in parking lots
a pedestrian route crosses or adjoins a vehicular way with no curb or railing
Detectable warnings in parking lots
as separation. By that definition, DW would be required on site as well as at
Detectable warnings in parking lots
street crossings. A "vehicular way" could be a street, a parking lot, an access
Detectable warnings in parking lots
drive, etc.
Detectable warnings in parking lots
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Detectable warnings in parking lots
Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots
Robert Burns, bobb@cedar-rapids.org
02/09/2007
By this definition could not every driveway be considered a location for a DW ?
If the sidewalks are seperated and at a different grade (2% vs 6%) would that
not be seperation enough.
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

Dennis M Cannon, Access Board, cannon@access-board.gov
02/12/2007
No, because most driveways that cross sidewalks are not vehicular areas, even
though some may be hazardous if drivers aren't paying attention. Those
driveways are pedestrian areas over which vehicles are permitted to cross,
under imited conditions and the vehicle operators are responsible for watching
out for pedestrians and pedestrians have the right-of-way.
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

Robert Burns, bobb@cedar-rapids.org
02/13/2007
Thank you Dennis, this is the way we have been interpreting this issue.
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

Clifford Payne, ADA, Inc., cpayne@adaconsults.com
02/19/2007
This is in many ways a new topic area for me, and I apologize in advance if my
questions are not up to par.

The idea that parking lots may not be "hazardous vehicular areas" is
fascinating to me. I have seen a number of lawsuits and other legal actions
based on the view that lots are in fact such areas.

Can anyone offer comment on why they may not hazardous areas?

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Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances

Linda M. Osiecki, Delaware Department of Transportation, Linda.Osiecki@state.de.us
02/23/2007
After speaking to people at the Access Board and the U.S. Department of
Justice, the guidance that was developed for the Delaware Department of
Transportation to define driveway entrances that are "hazardous vehicular ways"
(interpreted as including driveway entrances that operationally function as a
street) was the following:

• Signalized entrances;
• High volume entrances with ADT greater than about 400;
• Entrances with a vehicle operating speed of 25 m.p.h. or greater through the
pedestrian area.

The reasoning behind this was that driveway entrances with high vehicle
volumes, speeds, and/or signalization essentially function like an intersection
of streets. This would cover large shopping malls or high volume generators of
traffic (like a Wawa or frequently visited convenience store), but would

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exclude small businesses and residences.

Once PROWAG goes through the rule-making process and is adopted as a standard
by federal agencies, our guidance will be modified per those guidelines.
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Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances

Steve Oosting, City of South Haven, MI, soosting@south-haven.com
10/17/2008
Would it be appropriate for me to use that 400 ADT as a criteria for evaluating
residential alleys?
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Re: Detectable warnings for driveway entrances

Linda M. Osiecki, Delaware Department of Transportation, Linda.Osiecki@state.de.us
10/27/2008
What we have done is that if the alley is a named street, then detectable
warnings are placed no matter what the ADT. If the alley is not a named street,
then it really is operating as a driveway entrance for multiple residences, and
then we apply the ADT criteria, etc.

Once PROWAG is a final rule, we will change this, but until that happens we
still have to go with the "hazarous vehicular way".
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

Lois Thibault, US Access Board, thibault@access-board.gov
02/09/2007
We will soon begin the transition from ADAAG (1991), the current standard,
which requires DWs at 'hazardous vehicular areas', to PROWAG (draft 2005),
which will require them at streets in the right-of-way. When the rulemaking is
complete, the new ADAAG (2004, but not yet adopted by DOJ) will apply to work
on sites (no DWs, except at transit) and PROWAG (200?) will apply to projects
in the right-of-way (DWs at street crossings but not at driveways unless the
driveways have stop or signal control).

If the parking lots are 'hazardous vehicular areas' (they may not be), then the
current standard calls for DWs, even though we know that the soon-to-be-adopted
standard won't require them at those locations.

FHWA's recent action including on-site roadways in MUTCD coverage means that
the distinction between a location on a site and a location in the right-of-way
must be made clear for ADA purposes.

There is (and will be) no prohibition against using DWs in parking lots, and
many users would probably hope to find them there, even if not required. In our
rulemaking, we saw the rights-of-way safety issues as paramount and wanted to
avoid overuse of DWs in ways that might make their message less clear. A
difficult issue is commercial driveways, which may operate almost like
streets. If there are a lot of driveways along a walking/rolling route, it may
complicate wayfinding to have paired DWs at such frequent intervals that
tracking their meaning takes concentration away from other cues.
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

fred schwar, harley ellis devereaux, fcschwar@hedev.com
10/14/2008
We often encounter situations in parking lots either not addressed by ADA or if
they are, are not very conclusive. Case in point: there is no definition
anywhere of "vehicular way" or "hazardous vehicular way", which leaves it wide
open to interpretation. From other correspondance on this forum, I see that
some agencies, after confering with DOJ, have established their own
interpretation or definitons based upon signage, traffic signals, speed, ADT
counts, etc. Intuitively, it makes sence that some crossings should be treated
like an intersection with all that entails. My quandry is that local reviewing
agencies are consistently inconsistent in interpreting where to use DW's on
site, especially in parking lots. For instance, we often locate the PH parking
stalls along a sidewalk close to the building entrance. We feel this is in the
spirit of the ADA, and in order to avoid a bunch of curb ramps along with the
resultant up and down sidewalks, we prefer to make the sidewalk flush with the
pavement . We do not view this situaton as either "hazardous" or interpret it
as being adjacent to a "vehicular way". It's only parked cars. However, some
agencies have required full length DW strips along the sidewalk and some don't.
Another frequent situation is when there is a passenger dropoff lane in front
of the building entrance, usually under a canopy. These are typically low speed
areas and certainly not hazardous in our opinion. Again, some reviewing
agencies require DW strips at the perimeter of the flush roadway and some
don't. What is your take on all this and, more importantly, is it addressed
anywhere?
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

KC Hemry, bumps@suredome.com
10/15/2008
In several instances in Arizona, when handicap parking is along the sidewalk of
the building leading to the parking lot, between each parking stall on the
sidewalk there is a ramp with detectable warning. In large parking lots where
areas go between the lot and a thoroughfare there will be detecable warnings at
the end of each curb.
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Re: Detectable warnings in parking lots

Mary S Smith, Walker Parking Consultants, mary.smith@walkerparking.com
07/16/2009
It seems fairly clear that the intent of the Access Board when ADAAG 2004 was

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published was not to require detectable warnings at every curb ramp, every
where (such as in parking lots) but to require them at curb ramps and
crosswalks without curb ramps in the public right of way. Where ADAAG 2004 is
in force such as under GSA regs, they are clearly not required now. The DOT in
adopting ADAAG 2004 on Nov 1 2006 however added the application to sites, and
implied that perhaps DOJ and the Access Board intended to do so at some future
date. However it was not in the DOJ NPRM for adopting ADAAG 2004. This
discussion of hazardous vehicular areas seems to imply that they really aren't
needed within parking lots, which typically have even less activity in any one
aisle than at the driveway. Is there any update?
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