BorgesandGod

JorgeLuisBorgesandOsvaldoFerrari
InMarch1984,JorgeLuisBorgesbeganaseriesofradio
dialogueswiththeArgentinianpoetandessayistOsvaldo
Ferrari.Fortyfiveofthemhavejustbeentranslatedinto
EnglishforthefirsttimebyJasonWilsonandwillbepublished
thismonthbySeagullBooksasConversations,Volume
1.WhatfollowsisBorgessconversationwithFerrariabout
theexistenceofGod.TheEditors

OsvaldoFerrari:ManypeoplestillaskwhetherBorges
believesinGod,becauseattimestheyfeelhedoesandattimes
thathedoesnt.
JorgeLuisBorges:IfGodmeanssomethinginusthatstrives
forgood,yes.Ifhesthoughtofasanindividualbeing,then
no,Idontbelieve.Ibelieveinanethicalproposition,perhaps
notintheuniversebutineachoneofus.AndifIcouldI
wouldadd,likeBlake,anaestheticandanintellectual
propositionbutwithreferencetoindividualsagain.Imnot
sureitwouldapplytotheuniverse.IrememberTennysons
line:Natureredintoothandclaw.Hewrotethatbecauseso
manypeopletalkedaboutagentleNature.

JorgeLuis FerdinandoScianna/MagnumPhotos
BorgesattheruinsofSelinunte,Sicily,1984

Ferrari:Whatyouhavejustsaidconfirmsmyimpressionthat
yourpossibleconflictaboutbeliefordisbeliefinGodhastodowiththepossibilitythatGodmaybejust
orunjust.
Borges:Well,Ithinkthatitsenoughtoglanceattheuniversetonotethatjusticecertainlydoesnotrule.
IrecallalinefromAlmafuerte:Withdelicateart,Ispreadacaressoneveryreptile,Ididnotthink
justicewasnecessarywhenpainruleseverywhere.Inanotherline,hesays,AllIaskisjustice/but
bettertoaskfornothing.Alreadytoaskforjusticeistoaskformuch,toomuch.
Ferrari:Yet,youalsorecognizeintheworldtheexistenceofhappinessinalibrary,perhaps,butother
kindsofhappinesstoo.
Borges:That,yes,ofcourse.Iwouldsaythathappinesscanbemomentarybutthatitalsohappens
frequently,itcanhappen,forinstance,eveninourdialogue.
Ferrari:Theresanothersignificantimpacttheimpactthatpromptsmostpoetstoholdontothenotion
ofanotherworld,aworldapartfromthisone.Becausetheresalwayssomethinginthepoetswordsthat
seemstosendusbeyondwhatismentionedinthewriting.
Borges:Yes,butthatbeyondisperhapsprojectedbythewritingorbytheemotionsthatleadtothe
writing.Thatis,thatotherworldis,perhaps,abeautifulhumaninvention.

Ferrari:Butwecouldsaythatinallpoetrytheresanapproximationtosomethingelse,beyondthe
wordsandthesubjectmatter.
Borges:Well,languagedoesnotmatchuptothecomplexityofthings.Ithinkthatthephilosopher
Whiteheadtalksoftheparadoxoftheperfectdictionary,thatis,theideaofsupposingthatallthewords
thatadictionaryregistersexhaustreality.Chestertonalsowroteaboutthis,sayingthatitisabsurdto
supposethatallthenuancesofhumanconsciousness,whicharemorevastthanajungle,canbe
containedinamechanicalsystemofgruntswhichwouldbe,inthiscase,thewordsspokenbya
stockbroker.Thatsabsurdandyetpeopletalkofaperfectlanguage,ofarichlanguage,butin
comparisontoourconsciousnesslanguageisverypoor.IthinkthatsomewhereStevensonsaysthatwhat
happensintenminutesexceedsallShakespearesvocabulary[laughs].Ibelieveitsthesameidea.
Ferrari:Throughoutyourwriting,youhavereferredtowhatsdivine,includingthesupernatural.You
havealsoaccepted,inoneofourdialogues,Murenaswordsaboutbeautybeingabletotransmitan
otherworldlytruth.Thatis,youseemtoadmitthattranscendenceexistsbutyoudontcallitGod.
Borges:IdothinkthatitssafernottocallitGod.IfwecallitGod,thenwearethinkingofanindividual
andthatindividualismysteriouslythree,accordingtothedoctrineoftheTrinity,whichtomeisquite
inconceivable.Ontheotherhand,ifweemployotherwords,perhapslesspreciseorvividones,thenwe
couldapproachthetruth,ifanapproachtotruthispossible.Oritcouldbesomethingthatweignore.
Ferrari:ThatsexactlywhyonecouldthinkthatyoudonotnameGod.Eventhoughyoubelieveinthe
perceptionofanotherreality,besidestheeverydayone.
Borges:Iamunsureifthisrealityisaneverydayone.Wedontknowiftheuniversebelongstoarealist
genreorafantasticone,becauseif,asidealistsbelieve,everythingisadream,thenwhatwecallrealityis
essentiallyoneiric.Schopenhauerspokeoftheessence(oneiricsoundspedantic,doesntit?).Letssay,
Thedreamlikeessenceoflife.Yes,becauseoneiricsuggestssomethingsadlikepsychoanalysis
[laughs].
Ferrari:Besidesfaithoritsabsence,anotherquestioniswhetheryouconsiderloveinuniversalterms,as
apoweroranecessaryforceforthefulfillmentoflife.
Borges:Idontknowifitsnecessarybut,yes,itisinevitable.
Ferrari:Idontmeanlovebetweentwohumanbeingsbutwhatmenreceiveordonotreceive,asthey
receiveairorlight.Alovethatiseventuallysupernatural.
Borges:AttimesIfeel,howcanIputit?Mysteriouslygrateful.WhenIhaveanideathatwilllater,
sadly,becomeastoryorapoem,Ihaveasensationofreceivingsomething.ButIdonotknowifthat
somethingisgiventomebysomethingorsomeoneorifitburstsoutonitsown.Yeatsheldadoctrine
ofagreatmemoryandthoughtthatitwasntimportantforapoettohavemanyexperiencesbecausehe
inheritedmemoryfromhisparents,hisgrandparents,hisgreatgrandparents.Thismultipliesitselfin
geometricprogressionuntilheinheritshumankindsmemoryandthissomethingisrevealedtohim.
Now,DeQuinceythoughtthatmemoryisperfect,thatis,IhaveinmyselfeverythingthatIhavefelt,
everythingthatIhavethoughtsincechildhood.Buttheremustbeanadequatestimulustofindthis
memory.HethoughthewasaChristianthatwouldbethebookusedintheFinalJudgment,thebook
ofeveryonesmemories.AndthatcouldleaduseventuallytoHeavenorHell.But,deepdown,that
mythologyisalientome.
Ferrari:Howodd,Borges,itseemsthatwearetalkingconstantlythroughmemory.Sometimes,our
conversationsremindmeofadialoguebetweentwomemories.

Borges:Infact,thatswhatitis.Ifwearesomething,weareourpast,arentwe?Ourpastisnotwhat
canberecordedinabiographyorinthenewspapers.Ourpastisourmemory.Thatmemorycanbe
hiddenorinaccurateitdoesntmatter.Itsthere,isntit?Itcanbealiebutthatliebecomespartofour
memory,partofus.
Ferrari:Aswehavetalkedaboutfaithoritsabsence,Iwanttomentionsomethingaboutourtimesthat
seemsstrangetome.Overthecenturies,menintheProtestantandCatholicWesthaveworriedaboutthe
dilemmaofthesoulssalvation.Butitseemstomethatrecentgenerationsdonotthinkthatitisevena
dilemma.
Borges:Thatseemsprettyserioustome,thatapersonorpeopledonotpossessanethicalinstinctor
sense,doesntit?Moreover,theresatendency,orahabit,ofjudginganactbyitsconsequences.Now
thatseemsimmoraltome,becausewhenyouactyouknowifyouractsareevilorgood.Asforthe
consequencesofanacttheyramifyandmultiplyandperhapsbalanceoutintheend.Idonotknow,for
example,iftheconsequencesofthediscoveryofAmericahavebeengoodorevil,becausethereareso
many.Evenaswearetalking,theyaregrowingandmultiplying.Thus,tojudgeanactbyits
consequencesisabsurd.Butpeopletendtodothis.Forexample,acontestorawarisjudgedaccording
tofailureorsuccessandnotaccordingtowhetheritsethicallyjustified.Asfortheconsequences,asI
said,theymultiplyinsuchawaythat,perhapsintime,theybalanceoutandthenbecomeunbalanced
again.Itisacontinuousprocess.
Ferrari:Withthelossoftheideasofsalvationanddamnation,theresthelossoftheideasofgoodand
evil,sinandvirtue.Thatis,theresadifferentversionofthingsthatexcludestheearlierworldview.
Borges:Peoplenowonlythinkaboutwhethersomethingisadvantageous.Theythinkasifthefuture
doesntexist,orasifthereisnofutureotherthananimmediateone.Theyactaccordingtowhatcounts
inthatmoment.
Ferrari:Andthatwayofbeing,ofbeingpreoccupiedwithimmediacy,hasturnedusintoimmediate
beings,perhapsevenintofutileones.
Borges:Icompletelyagree.
November4,2014,1:15p.m.