132-3-31-08 Day 7 PM

**NO COPY OF THIS TRANSCRIPT MAY BE MADE PRIOR TO 03-30-09
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA *
* 07-CR-189-01, 02,
v. * 03-GZS
* March 31, 2008
DANIEL RILEY, ET AL * 12:15 p.m.
*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL

DAY SEVEN - PM SESSION
BEFORE THE HONORABLE GEORGE Z. SINGAL
APPEARANCES:
For the Government: Arnold H. Huftalen, AUSA

Robert M. Kinsella, AUSA
U.S. Attorney's Office
For Mr. Riley: Sven D. Wiberg, Esq.

Wiberg Law Office
For Mr. Gerhard: Stanley W. Norkunas, Esq.

Norkunas Law Office
Liam D. Scully, Esq.

Aruri & Scully
For Mr. Gonzalez: David H. Bownes, Esq.

Bownes Law Office, PC
Court Reporter: Susan M. Bateman, CSR, RPR, CRR

Official Court Reporter
United States District Court
55 Pleasant Street
Concord, NH 03301
(603)225-1453
2
I N D E X
WITNESS: Direct Cross Redirect Recross
ROBERT WOLFFE:
By Mr. Huftalen 03 112, 137
By Mr. Scully 26 132, 139
By Mr. Wiberg 27 126
By Mr. Bownes 73 129

3
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE COURT: Please swear the witness.
3 ROBERT WOLFFE
4 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
5 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell
6 your last name for the record.
7 MR. WOLFFE: Robert Wolffe, W-O-L-F-F-E.
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Huftalen.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. HUFTALEN:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Wolffe.
14 A. Hello.
15 Q. I'm going to ask you to please keep your
16 voice up and speak into the microphone in front of you
17 so that everyone can hear you. Mr. Wolffe, what's
18 your home address?
19 A. 22 Highland Avenue, Randolph, Vermont.
20 Q. Do you know an individual named Jason
21 Gerhard?
22 A. Yes, I do. An acquaintance.
23 Q. Has Jason Gerhard ever lived at 22 Highland
24 Avenue, Randolph, Vermont?
25 A. No, he hasn't. No.

4
1 Q. Mr. Wolffe, do you know Edward and Elaine
2 Brown?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you characterize yourself as a
5 supporter of Ed and Elaine Brown?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you first meet them?
8 A. January '07.
9 Q. When did you last see them?
10 A. August '07.
11 Q. Between January '07 and August of '07
12 approximately how many times did you see the Browns?
13 A. I would say 25 to 30 times.
14 Q. And where was it that you saw them?
15 A. At their home on Center of Town Road.
16 Q. In Plainfield, New Hampshire?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On those occasions when you went to the
19 Browns, were you armed with a firearm?
20 A. Yes, I usually carried a 9 millimeter
21 handgun.
22 Q. Were you ever stopped by law enforcement
23 either entering or leaving the Brown property?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever stay, and by that I mean sleep

5
1 over on the Brown property?
2 A. One night I had my camper. My wife and I
3 were heading out for a long weekend and stopped there
4 on our way out.
5 Q. Other than that, were your trips day trips?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. About how far a drive is it from your home in
8 Randolph, Vermont to Plainfield, New Hampshire?
9 A. Just under 40 miles.
10 Q. Did you know when you saw the Browns between
11 January and August of '07 that they had been convicted
12 of federal felony offenses?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. When you went to the Browns, did you ever
15 conduct any counter surveillance on behalf of Mr.
16 Brown?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Very briefly, what did you do?
19 A. Just during one of their parties walked up
20 the driveway and -- to see who was up -- what law
21 enforcement was up at the end of the driveway,
22 marshals or local police officers.
23 Q. Did you ever drive into town near the Browns
24 to monitor any activity by law enforcement?
25 A. Yes, I did.
6
1 Q. Tell us what you did, please.
2 A. Another supporter who was living at the
3 Browns at the time was out in town shopping, and I was
4 nearby. I got a call from him that said that the
5 marshals were following him around in a store so I
6 went to see where the marshals were, and I followed
7 the marshals following Mr. Hobbs, who was the person
8 they were following.
9 Q. And did you report that information back to
10 Mr. Brown?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Would it be a fair statement to say that at
13 times you provided armed security at the residence?
14 A. Since I had a 9 millimeter on me, yes. I
15 guess you would, yes.
16 Q. When you were at the Brown property in that
17 time frame -- all of my questions relate to the
18 January '07 to August '07 time frame. When you were
19 on the Brown property during that time frame, did you
20 ever see any weapons there other than the one you had?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. What other types of weapons did you see?
23 A. .50 caliber rifles, AK-47s, a couple mini
24 14s, numerous handguns.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Wolffe, you're here today wearing an

7
1 orange jump suit and an orange jacket, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You are currently being held in custody in
4 jail; are you not?
5 A. I am.
6 Q. And what jail facility are you being held at?
7 A. Merrimack County.
8 Q. You're being held in jail because you were
9 arrested with respect to your activities concerning
10 Mr. and Mrs. Brown, correct?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. How long have you been in custody?
13 A. Since September 12th. A little over six and
14 a half months, maybe.
15 Q. Mr. Wolffe, you've been charged with three
16 crimes related to Mr. Brown and Mrs. Brown, correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Is it fair to say that you have been charged
19 with conspiracy to prevent officers of the United
20 States from discharging their duties in arresting Mr.
21 and Mrs. Brown?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it also fair to say that you've been
24 charged with conspiracy to commit other offenses
25 against the United States, as well?

8
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And finally, is it fair to say that you've
3 been charged with being an accessory after the fact --
4 helping Mr. and Mrs. Brown?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And have you pled guilty to all three of
7 those charges?
8 A. I have.
9 Q. After you were arrested --
10 THE COURT: Just a second. Counsel, do you
11 wish for a limiting instruction? Mr. Wiberg? Mr.
12 Norkunas? Mr. Scully?
13 MR. SCULLY: Yes, we do.
14 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen,
15 the fact that this defendant has pled guilty to
16 whatever offenses you just heard should not be
17 considered as substantive evidence of any defendant's
18 guilt here. In other words, you're not to think he
19 pled guilty, therefore somebody else must be guilty.
20 Absolutely not. The pleas that you heard about are to
21 be considered only as evidence relative to his
22 credibility as a witness.
23 You will hear more discussion about that, but
24 it is not to be used by you as proof of guilt of any
25 other defendants that he pled guilty. Do you follow

9
1 what I'm saying? Everybody understands. They're
2 shaking their heads. Very good. You may proceed.
3 Q. Thank you, Judge. Mr. Wolffe, I'm going to
4 hand you a document which has been marked as
5 Government's Exhibit 20 for identification purposes
6 only. I would like you to take a look at it, but
7 please don't read out loud anything in that document.
8 THE COURT: Exhibit what?
9 MR. HUFTALEN: 20 ID.
10 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
11 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that, Mr.
12 Wolffe?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. Have you seen that document before today?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. When did you first see it?
17 A. It was in September '07.
18 Q. Do you know the date?
19 A. The 18th -- 17th.
20 Q. September 18th '07. Mr. Wolffe, that's a
21 letter that you signed, that I signed and that your
22 lawyer signed; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And that letter contains terms by which you
25 agreed to sit down and talk with law enforcement --

10
1 MR. WIBERG: Objection, your Honor. It's
2 leading.
3 THE COURT: I know it's leading.
4 MR. HUFTALEN: It is leading.
5 THE COURT: You're going to rephrase it. Go
6 ahead. Rephrase.
7 Q. Without disclosing the contents, tell us
8 generally what that letter was for.
9 A. Generally, that I would discuss with you what
10 occurred over at the Browns, what I saw, who I saw
11 there, and that I would tell you the truth about that
12 and if anything -- if I was to lie on this, it would
13 be perjury, as well.
14 THE COURT: You may proceed.
15 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, after you had signed that letter, your
17 lawyer and I signed it, you met with federal law
18 enforcement officers on a couple of occasions; did you
19 not?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And without getting into the specifics, which
22 we will get into, generally speaking, what did you
23 tell them?
24 A. I pretty much told them what I had done at
25 the Browns. I told them about the people that I had

11
1 seen at the Browns. What -- you know, what the
2 feeling was. The attitude of people there.
3 Q. Do you recall when it is you met with federal
4 law enforcement officers you met with?
5 A. In September. It was shortly before.
6 Q. In September of 2007 after you signed that
7 letter?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you met and spoke with law enforcement
10 officers, were you completely truthful in every
11 respect?
12 A. Yes. Except there was one instance where I
13 didn't -- I didn't tell them that the power had been
14 restored at the Brown residence.
15 Q. In fact, did you say something that was a bit
16 misleading in that regard?
17 A. Well, we had been discussing the power that
18 the Browns had. They had wind power, solar power,
19 generators, and I failed to mention -- you know, since
20 they were asking questions about those power -- the
21 power that they had, I didn't bring up the fact that
22 the power from the grid had been restored.
23 Q. Okay. There was a question about whether the
24 power had been cut off, right?
25 A. Yes.
12
1 Q. And would it be fair to say that you left the
2 issue hanging that the power was still cut off?
3 A. I did, but then as soon as I was done with
4 that -- I mean within a few seconds I brought it up,
5 but I probably should have mentioned it, you know,
6 first off.
7 Q. And you did at that point clarify the issue?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Now, you pled guilty to these charges that we
10 discussed very briefly earlier in January of this
11 year, 2008, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when you pled guilty, did the
14 government, the prosecutor's office, promise you
15 anything in exchange for your plea of guilty?
16 A. No. Nothing.
17 Q. You're here testifying today, obviously,
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you been promised anything in return for
21 your testimony today?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What have you been told will happen to you
24 with respect to your case after testifying today?
25 A. Well, if I lie, then I will be charged with

13
1 perjury or further charges.
2 Q. Have any promises been made to you concerning
3 a lighter sentence?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Cirino Gonzalez at the
6 Brown property?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Do you recognize Mr. Gonzalez in the
9 courtroom today?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Can you identify where he's sitting and tell
12 the members of the jury what he's wearing?
13 A. He's sitting right at the front table there
14 with his right arm raised.
15 Q. You said the front table. You mean the back
16 table here?
17 A. Back table. Second table, yes.
18 Q. With the blue shirt on. When did you first
19 meet Mr. Gonzalez?
20 A. Early April '07.
21 Q. And where was it you met him?
22 A. At the Browns -- actually at the dental
23 clinic -- dental office that the Browns owned.
24 Q. Did Mr. Gonzalez ever -- let me ask you,
25 about how many times after you first met him did you
14
1 see Mr. Gonzalez?
2 A. Three or four times.
3 Q. When you met Mr. Gonzalez, or shortly
4 thereafter while he was at the Browns, did he tell you
5 why he was at the Browns?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. What did he say?
8 A. He was there as a former military with
9 security background to help the Browns in the security
10 of their home and property.
11 Q. When you saw Mr. Gonzalez on the Brown
12 property, did you ever see him armed with a weapon?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'm going to hand you what is in as a full
15 Government Exhibit 17-B-1 and ask you to take a look
16 at it. Would you please take a look at the firearm
17 that I am holding in front of you?
18 A. Yes. That looks like the one that Mr.
19 Gonzalez had, yes.
20 Q. Are you familiar with firearms of this type?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What type of firearm is this that I'm
23 holding, Government's Exhibit 17-B --
24 A. It's a Walter P22 semi-automatic.
25 Q. All right. I'm still holding that, and I'm

15
1 taking that from you. On how many occasions did you
2 see Mr. Gonzalez with that firearm or with a firearm
3 similar to 17-B-1?
4 A. He had that on usually whenever I was there.
5 I mean it was on his shoulder holster. Sometimes it
6 was hidden.
7 Q. Shoulder holster -- under which of his arms?
8 You made a gesture.
9 A. Left arm.
10 Q. Under his left arm?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did Mr. Gonzalez ever say anything to you
13 while you were at the Brown property about any other
14 weapons?
15 A. Yes. He had a .50 caliber that he owned that
16 he brought with him there.
17 Q. There, meaning where?
18 A. To the Brown residence.
19 Q. Now, let's move to Daniel Riley. Had you
20 ever met an individual named Daniel Riley?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Where did you meet him?
23 A. At the Brown residence.
24 Q. Do you see the Daniel Riley you met at the
25 Brown residence in the courtroom today?

16
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Can you please identify the clothing he's
3 wearing, and tell us where he's seated?
4 A. Third table back on the left side there.
5 Light-colored shirt on.
6 Q. The gentleman here at the back table on the
7 far side of the courtroom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When did you first meet Mr. Riley at the
10 Brown property?
11 A. I believe it was late April of '07.
12 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here today,
13 approximately how many times you saw Mr. Riley at the
14 Brown property?
15 A. Three or four times.
16 Q. Did Mr. Riley ever tell you that he was
17 involved in any Internet dealings on behalf of Mr.
18 Brown?
19 A. Yes. Him and a fellow named Shaun Kranish
20 ran a website that supported the Browns, and I think
21 another one called "Make the Stand".
22 Q. There's been some prior testimony in this
23 case concerning devices that have been referred to in
24 some instances as zip guns, spring guns or booby trap
25 devices. Are you familiar with any of those phrases?

17
1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. Did you see on the Brown property anything
3 that fit that description as you would define it?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Very generally, what would you describe that
6 you saw on the Brown property that might be a zip gun,
7 a spring gun or a booby trap device?
8 A. In their -- Ed's garage they had some black
9 iron pipe pieces and -- again, with some springs and
10 pins -- firing pins in various assembly. Some were
11 put together fully. Others were just the pipe parts.
12 Q. Now, you said they had in Mr. Brown's garage,
13 I believe you said. Who were you referring to when
14 you said they had?
15 A. Ed Brown and Danny Riley.
16 Q. Did you see both Ed Brown and Dan Riley
17 together with these things in Mr. Brown's garage?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did Mr. Riley talk to you about what these
20 devices were?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Tell us what he said, please.
23 A. They would be placed around the property with
24 blank charges, 12-gauge charges in them, and they were
25 going to -- as a warning so that if anybody came

18
1 through the woods to the Brown residence, they would
2 hear it.
3 Q. Did Mr. Riley say anything about where they
4 would be located other than in the wood line -- how
5 they would be affixed?
6 A. Oh, they were going to use what we call a
7 C-clamp -- a two hole C-clamp that you could nail into
8 a tree or a stump at whatever angle that would be
9 convenient.
10 Q. Are you familiar with a product called
11 tannerite?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How is it that you're -- have you seen or
14 heard of tannerite on the Brown property?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Tell us what you know about tannerite on the
17 Brown property.
18 A. I know that Danny had some delivered. It
19 comes in two packages -- a mixture that you make to
20 get it to detonate.
21 Q. Did you see any tannerite on the Brown
22 property?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Who did you see holding it or touching it?
25 A. Danny Riley.
19
1 Q. Did Mr. Riley tell you what it was used for?
2 A. Well, what it did -- what it was used for,
3 yes. For explosives.
4 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Riley exploding any
5 tannerite?
6 A. Yes. Him and Ed Brown were -- it detonates
7 through kinetic energy. Basically, a shot from a gun,
8 and they had some in a firing pit that they used and
9 shot bullets at it to get it to detonate.
10 Q. Did they shoot different rounds -- different
11 types of ammunition at it?
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 Q. Tell us what you recall and what rounds they
14 shot at it.
15 A. It started with a .22 caliber. The
16 .22 caliber didn't set it off, but from a .223 -- a
17 .223 round did set it off. They made another mixture,
18 and I believe it was a .308 that they shot into that
19 mixture and that set it off so I saw them detonate two
20 containers of it.
21 Q. Were there other people present when you saw
22 Mr. Riley and Mr. Brown detonating tannerite with
23 rifles?
24 A. Yes, there was.
25 Q. Can you tell us who?

20
1 A. I don't recall. There was probably 15 or 20
2 people at the house at that time.
3 Q. Did Mr. Brown ever tell you where he intended
4 to utilize -- let me strike that and ask a different
5 question. Did Mr. Brown ever say what he intended to
6 do with the tannerite?
7 MR. WIBERG: Objection. May we approach?
8 THE COURT: Of course.
9 (SIDEBAR)
10 MR. WIBERG: Yes, Judge, there's an issue
11 here with Mr. Brown's statements in that the
12 government has suggested and maybe even said outright
13 that Mr. Brown is an unindicted co-conspirator here so
14 we've got some issues with regard to what he said
15 about what he was going to do with these things.
16 It implicates Crawford. The Sixth Amendment.
17 I know that there is a co-conspirator exception.
18 However, the dust has not settled from Crawford yet
19 and Crawford basically said no --
20 THE COURT: There's First Circuit law that
21 says Crawford is not implicated in Petrozziello. It's
22 a decision. I have to go by what the First Circuit
23 says, don't I?
24 MR. WIBERG: I understand, Judge, but there
25 is a division amongst the circuits so I have to

21
1 preserve it, as well.
2 THE COURT: You're free to do that. I will
3 permit it under Petrozziello. Counsel, remember to
4 make the appropriate objection at the appropriate
5 time.
6 MR. HUFTALEN: Your Honor, on another issue,
7 so we don't come back in 30 seconds, as soon as I
8 finish this question, I'm going to go into Mr.
9 Gerhard. There are only going to be three questions
10 of Mr. Gerhard. One of them will be, what did Mr.
11 Gerhard tell you, and he will say, Mr. Gerhard told me
12 that he had joined the Army. He was joining the Army
13 to learn military tactics and about demolition and
14 explosives.
15 THE COURT: That's fine. Go ahead.
16 MR. SCULLY: That statement would be over
17 objection, Judge, obviously.
18 THE COURT: You jump up and object.
19 MR. SCULLY: Okay, and I would join the
20 objection raised by counsel.
21 THE COURT: On Petrozziello. Very good.
22 (CONCLUSION OF SIDEBAR)
23 THE COURT: The pending objection,
24 Petrozziello, is overruled, subject to meeting
25 necessary conditions by the close of evidence.

22
1 Q. Mr. Wolffe, let me ask you the question
2 again. Did Mr. Brown ever say anything to you about
3 what he intended to use the tannerite for?
4 A. He was going to hang it in trees -- the
5 perimeter of the woods surrounding his house.
6 Q. Was Mr. Riley present when he told you that?
7 MR. BOWNES: Well, I'm going to just object
8 and ask for a specific time frame, if he knows.
9 THE COURT: Pin it down. Month, season,
10 whatever you can do.
11 Q. To the best of your recollection, when was it
12 that Mr. Brown told you he intended to put the
13 tannerite where he said he intended to put it?
14 A. This was early August '07.
15 Q. And was Mr. Riley present when Mr. Brown
16 spoke with you about the placement of tannerite?
17 A. I don't remember. I don't recall that he was
18 there, no.
19 Q. Did you ever see tannerite hanging from any
20 trees at the Brown property?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Presumably in August or later of 2007?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 MR. WIBERG: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.

23
1 Q. When you saw it, was it something you
2 observed, or did someone bring it to your attention?
3 A. Ed Brown brought it to my attention.
4 Q. Now, have you ever met Jason Gerhard?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. When did you first meet Mr. Gerhard?
7 A. I believe it was mid-June of '07.
8 Q. Where did you meet him?
9 A. At the Brown residence.
10 Q. And do you recognize the Jason Gerhard you
11 met at the Brown residence in the courtroom today?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Would you please identify him by describing
14 what he's wearing for clothing and where he's sitting?
15 A. Blue shirt. Second table.
16 Q. The gentleman over here on the right side of
17 the courtroom at the front table?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall when you first met Mr. Gerhard
20 at the Browns?
21 A. Yes. It was -- there was a party there. I
22 believe it was mid-July, June sometime, and it was at
23 that time that I met him.
24 Q. Did you observe Mr. Gerhard doing anything to
25 assist Mr. Brown around the house?

24
1 A. Jason took care of a lot of little things
2 around the house, you know, trash removal and cleaning
3 up.
4 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Gerhard about
5 firearms?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall any conversations in particular
8 you had with him about firearms?
9 MR. BOWNES: Objection. Petrozziello. I
10 know he hasn't asked that question yet. Secondly, the
11 time frame?
12 THE COURT: Get a time frame. Just reask the
13 question. Go ahead.
14 Q. When did you talk to Mr. Gerhard about
15 weapons?
16 A. It would have to be towards the end of August
17 of '07.
18 Q. What did Mr. Gerhard tell you about weapons?
19 A. Well, he was --
20 MR. BOWNES: Objection.
21 MR. WIBERG: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. You can
23 answer. That means you can answer.
24 A. He was trying to buy some weapons for Ed
25 Brown, and there was a dealer in town that he had been

25
1 buying weapons and some ammunition from, and this
2 dealer decided he wasn't going to sell him anymore
3 guns.
4 Q. Did you have any conversations with Mr.
5 Gerhard about what his future plans were?
6 A. Yes. He was going to join the military.
7 Q. Did he tell you what his intentions were with
8 respect to the military?
9 A. He wanted to go into the engineers so he
10 could learn --
11 MR. WIBERG: Objection, your Honor.
12 MR. SCULLY: Objection, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer.
14 Q. You said he wanted to go into the engineers
15 to learn -- and then you stopped.
16 A. To learn military tactics, demolitions and
17 explosives.
18 Q. Mr. Wolffe, I have one more question. I'm
19 going to hand you what's been marked as Government's
20 Exhibit 21 for identification only. Please take a
21 look at it, but don't read the contents.
22 A. This is my plea agreement with you.
23 Q. Would you look at the last page and tell me
24 whether or not it bears any signatures?
25 A. Yes, it does. My signature, yours and my

26
1 attorney's.
2 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you very much. Your
3 Honor, at this point I have no further questions of
4 Mr. Wolffe.
5 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Norkunas or Mr.
6 Scully? Mr. Scully. Cross examination.
7 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, your Honor.
8 CROSS EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. SCULLY:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
11 A. Hello.
12 Q. You just testified that -- you said that
13 Jason told you he was trying to buy weapons for Ed
14 Brown at one point, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that there was a dealer in town who was
17 not selling them to him, right?
19 Q. And you think that that conversation occurred
20 in August of 2007; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Now, you have testified in this case at the
23 grand jury, right?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. You didn't tell the grand jury that specific

27
1 statement; isn't that true?
3 Q. And you met with the government agents and
4 spoke with them at length twice before that, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in neither of those conversations did you
7 say that Jason had told you that he had tried to buy
8 guns for Ed Brown, right?
10 Q. So that's your testimony today, but it was
11 not said at the grand jury, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And not said in either of those proffer
14 sessions, right?
16 MR. SCULLY: No further questions, your
17 Honor.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg, cross examination.
19 MR. WIBERG: Thank you, your Honor.
20 CROSS EXAMINATION
21 BY WIBERG:
23 A. Hello.
24 Q. Fair to say you were friends with these
25 gentlemen?
28
1 A. Acquaintances, yes.
2 Q. You weren't friendly with them?
3 A. On friendly terms, yes. We were just
4 acquaintances.
5 Q. And out of the three, you were the one that
6 was there the longest -- for the longest period,
7 correct?
8 A. Well, I lived in the area, yes.
9 Q. No, but I'm saying you got there before these
10 guys?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were there at least as long as
13 anybody who is sitting here, correct?
14 A. Yes. That's correct.
15 Q. Now, you've been in a tough spot now, haven't
16 you?
17 A. Yes, I have.
18 Q. It hasn't been fun, has it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In fact, you don't like what you have to do
21 here, do you?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Let's talk a little bit about what you
24 thought you were doing there. You went to support Ed
25 and Elaine because you believed in their cause,

29
1 correct?
2 A. In the income tax fraud, yes.
3 Q. Right, and in fact when you went up there,
4 you believed that they had committed no crime,
5 correct?
7 Q. And in fact, you maintain that belief till
8 today?
9 A. Well, it gets kind of technical because they
10 have been convicted. So technically until we, the
11 people, gather up and make the IRS own up to the fact
12 that there is no law, then they are convicted felons
13 and I can't change that so --
14 Q. Right, but you never changed your opinion
15 that they didn't commit a crime.
16 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection. Asked and
17 answered.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. You were never served with the warrants for
20 Ed and Elaine Brown, were you?
21 A. Served the warrants? No.
22 Q. Shown the warrant that they were wanted?
23 A. Oh, no.
24 Q. As far as you know, nobody there was given a
25 copy of the warrant.

30
1 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection. Calls for
2 speculation.
4 Q. Do you know?
5 A. I don't know. I haven't seen it.
6 Q. But you didn't?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Same thing with a record of convictions. You
9 didn't get a copy of the convictions, did you?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Now, we've heard about meetings that you had
12 with the government. These meetings were all after
13 you were arrested in September, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how many times have you met with the
16 government?
17 A. Twice. In the proffers, twice.
18 Q. How many times since then?
19 A. I guess it was just twice.
20 Q. You met with the government today, haven't
21 you?
22 A. Well, with the prosecutor, yes.
23 Q. How many times have you met with the
24 prosecutor?
25 A. Once with the prosecutor.

31
1 Q. Just once?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Just twice with the government agents?
4 A. There was another time in June -- I think it
5 was -- that I met with some agents near my house.
6 Q. Okay, and weren't these prosecutors in -- one
7 or both of them in on the proffer sessions?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. Okay. So you've met with them more than
10 once?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in fact, you continued to meet with them
13 right up until today, haven't you?
14 A. Well, I had a meeting with them a couple
15 weeks ago, yes.
16 Q. Was that another one?
17 A. No. That was before the jury selection -- or
18 right after the jury selection.
19 Q. Okay, but even before these folks walked in
20 the door just now, you were, you know, conferring with
21 Mr. Huftalen, weren't you?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Getting some last minute instructions?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay, and when you met with the government

32
1 each one of these times, there was no tape recorder
2 going, was there?
3 A. They said there was not, yes. That's
4 correct.
5 Q. No videotape?
6 A. No videotape, no.
7 Q. No audio tape that you know of?
8 A. Well, I assumed they were audio taping it,
9 yes, but my attorney told me they were not.
10 Q. Okay. You've never seen or heard of any
11 tapes of these meetings you had with the government?
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. You heard some tapes of calls that you were
14 making in and out of jail, correct?
15 A. I have not heard any of those, no.
16 Q. You know that they exist, correct?
17 A. No. I do not know they exist.
18 Q. You don't know that?
19 A. I mean they tell you that they record the
20 phone conversations, but I have not heard any.
21 Q. Okay. Let's talk about -- was there a
22 transcriptionist there? Was there somebody
23 transcribing what you were saying to the government
24 and what the government was saying to you?
25 A. No, there was not.

33
1 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that
2 your purpose there the whole time was not offensive,
3 correct?
4 A. Purpose where?
5 Q. While you were supporting Ed and Elaine
6 Brown.
7 A. Not offensive. That's correct.
8 Q. In fact, the standing instructions were that
9 nobody was to fire unless they were fired upon,
10 correct?
12 Q. And even in situations where people thought
13 they had been fired on, nobody fired back, correct?
14 A. Those are just hearsay, and nobody did fire
15 back that I know of.
16 Q. As far as you know?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. That's right, and in fact that was the
19 standing plan, wasn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There was no other plan, was there?
22 A. No.
23 Q. There was no conspiracy, was there?
24 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection.

34
1 Q. Was there any agreement, you know, where
2 everybody sat down and said, let's do these things
3 that you guys got charged with?
5 THE COURT: Overruled. The question is, did
6 people sit down and say, let's do these things,
7 sitting down together. That was the question.
8 A. No, they did not.
9 Q. Okay, and in fact, you guys weren't even
10 there all of the time together, correct?
11 A. Right. I mean I only saw each of them three
12 or four times over six or seven months.
13 Q. Right, and in fact, you were a part of this
14 group, weren't you?
15 A. A part of this? What do you mean by that?
16 Q. You were charged at the same time these guys
17 were, weren't you?
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 Q. And in fact, nobody was to attack anybody in
20 this situation, were they?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The only time -- as a matter of fact, the
23 idea was that everybody was waiting for the
24 government, through its agent, to show Ed and Elaine
25 the law, correct?

35
2 Q. We've seen this in some of the other things
3 that have been presented here. Was that your
4 intention, as well?
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. If they had come, nobody there was there to
7 physically interfere with them doing their duty if
8 they could show you the law, correct?
11 Q. Correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In fact, you were there when Ed Brown said,
14 if they showed him the law, he would pay the money,
15 correct?
16 A. Oh, yes. Ed said that repeatedly.
17 Q. Even after -- and you started with Ed and
18 Elaine in January of '07, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that Danny came, you believe, in
21 April. Could it have been later? May?
22 A. Oh, it was sometime towards the end of April.
23 I know it was -- again, the dates kind of blend in.
24 There was warm weather when I first saw Danny there
25 so --
36
1 Q. Now, you did this grand jury testimony. You
2 recall that, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Actually, let me ask you a few more in this
5 same vein. The entire time you were there nobody took
6 a shot at any official, did they?
7 A. Not that I know of, no.
8 Q. Nobody took any offensive action against any
9 official?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Nobody agreed to take some offensive action
12 against any federal or state official?
14 Q. Now, you did the proffer letter, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you talked about how that says that --
17 well, did you actually read that with your attorney?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. You did? In fact, you didn't want to be
20 represented, did you?
21 A. I did not, no.
22 Q. And in fact, you believed that your attorney
23 was trying to get you to plead guilty, correct?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And you, in fact, didn't want to have him as

37
1 your attorney, correct?
3 Q. And you eventually reached a conclusion that
4 you had no alternative but to plead guilty, correct?
5 A. Yes. That's correct.
6 Q. And you're charged with three charges, and
7 you've pled guilty to three charges, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But during these proffer sessions -- you
10 testified about the answer to the question, had the
11 government promised you anything. That's not exactly,
12 correct, is it, that they didn't promise you anything?
13 A. They just promised me that if I lied, then I
14 could get charged with perjury.
15 Q. Well, let's talk about that. Who decides if
16 you lied when you're on the stand?
17 A. I wouldn't know.
18 Q. Well, who is the person who charged -- who
19 are the people who charged you?
20 A. The government.
21 Q. Right, and who decides whether or not you
22 lied to bring the perjury charge? The government?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay, and didn't they also tell you about --
25 wasn't there a series of indictments involved in the

38
1 case?
2 A. From the first indictment to a superseding
3 indictment to a second superseding -- yes.
4 Q. Right. Okay, and that indictment changed
5 over time, didn't it?
6 A. Yes, it did.
7 Q. Didn't they, in fact, tell you that if you
8 got in on cooperating with them, that they would stick
9 with what they charged you with?
10 A. No. Nothing like that. I mean I was
11 involved with just bringing the issue out to the
12 public, and I never got involved with -- I didn't
13 supply any weapons. I wasn't there to, you know,
14 provide security, as such, you know, on a basis like
15 that. I just wanted to bring it to the public's
16 attention so I didn't have the same involvement as the
17 other fellows.
18 Q. Sir, you told these folks that you brought
19 weapons to the property, didn't you?
20 A. A 9 millimeter gun that I carry. I mean I
21 live in Vermont, and I always have a gun in my truck
22 or on my belt. Going to the Browns wasn't any
23 different than going anywhere else that I go.
24 Q. So that's not your AR-15 in the pictures from
25 the party?
39
1 A. No, it isn't.
2 Q. But you're holding it and firing it, aren't
3 you?
4 A. No. I never fired -- saw pictures of me
5 firing an AR-15.
6 Q. You don't recall firing right next to the
7 house? Well, let me back up.
8 A. Yeah. I went there and I did do some target
9 shooting, but I don't recall -- well, maybe it was. I
10 did own an AR-15, but I had sold that.
11 Q. So you don't think that it was you?
12 A. I didn't see that picture. I don't know
13 which one you're talking about.
14 Q. You don't remember a time when Ed Brown was
15 in the house, itself, kind of leaning out of that
16 portion that was being finished, and you were standing
17 in front of him?
18 A. I would have to see the picture. I don't
19 recall.
20 Q. You don't remember that picture?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember that Ed had one of those
23 Serbu .50 calibers?
24 A. I did see him with one of those, yes.
25 Q. And you were holding the AR-15?

40
1 A. Again, I don't recall that instance, no.
2 Q. And you fired?
3 THE COURT: Ask a question.
4 Q. And did you fire that AR-15?
5 A. I did fire an AR-15 there, yes.
6 Q. Right. Now, that was perfectly okay, as far
7 as you were concerned, because there was a range on
8 the property, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, for instance, the tannerite was bought
11 because that's a good thing to have when you're doing
12 long distance shooting, correct?
13 A. I would presume. I never did any long
14 distance shooting, but it does sound plausible, yes.
15 Q. Well, you knew that it was for exploding
16 targets, right?
17 A. Yes. I did see an exploding target, yes.
18 Q. Right, and if you're just plinking and
19 there's a target a couple hundred yards down, you
20 might not even see where it hit, correct?
22 Q. But if you've got a weapon that can shoot
23 that far and you have the tannerite, you can see when
24 you've hit the spot, right?
25 A. Yes. I certainly could.

41
1 Q. Okay. Let's go to your grand jury testimony.
2 Well, before we do that, we were talking about what
3 you were charged with. You didn't get charged with a
4 weapons charge, did you?
5 A. I did not, no.
6 Q. No. So do you know what the maximum you
7 could get for the charge that you've pled guilty to
8 is?
9 A. 52 1/2 years.
10 Q. Okay, and what's the minimum?
11 A. I guess I could be let out on time served.
12 Q. And in fact, you think that you're going to
13 be getting out in a couple months, don't you?
14 A. It certainly would be nice, yes.
15 Q. No, but you think that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told your wife that you expected to be
18 out in that short time, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, why would you think that?
21 A. My attorney and I went through the sentencing
22 guidelines, and that's the range for what I was
23 charged with.
24 Q. But how would you think that since when you
25 do your plea, you talk to the judge and the judge

42
1 indicates, you know --
2 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg, how his attorney
3 thinks, that is not an appropriate question.
4 MR. WIBERG: I'll move on.
5 Q. You actually got that from your meetings with
6 the government, didn't you?
7 A. No. I got that from my attorney when we went
8 through --
9 THE COURT: All right. Stop. You're not
10 supposed to talk about what your attorney told you.
11 Mr. Wiberg won't ask you, either.
12 Q. You got that --
13 MR. WIBERG: I wasn't saying, Judge, his
14 attorney. I was saying these attorneys.
15 THE COURT: I understand.
16 Q. Now, you believe that you're going to get out
17 in a couple of months, and who is going to decide
18 that, do you think?
19 A. The judge.
20 Q. Yes, but to do that, aren't you expecting a
21 motion from these folks?
22 A. I really don't know how the system works.
23 I've never been involved in it before so this is all
24 new.
25 Q. Okay. Now, you know because they told you

43
1 that if you didn't cooperate, they could add the extra
2 charges that these guys got, correct?
4 THE COURT: Sustained. It's been asked.
5 Move on.
6 MR. WIBERG: Judge, may we approach?
8 (SIDEBAR)
9 MR. WIBERG: I believe that's actually the
10 first time I've asked that specific question.
11 THE COURT: You asked it in a different way,
12 but I'm going to let you reask it. Reask it.
13 MR. WIBERG: Okay. Thank you.
15 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Wiberg. Rephrase.
16 Q. You were told that there were additional
17 charges that could be brought, correct?
18 THE COURT: Who? I want to exclude
19 conversations. Do you understand what I'm saying?
20 MR. WIBERG: Yes.
21 THE COURT: All right. Let's try it again.
22 Q. Did anyone on the government's side give you
23 reason to believe that there might be other charges
24 that could be brought if you didn't cooperate?
25 A. Do you mean besides perjury charges if I lie?

44
1 Q. No. I'm talking about the weapons charges.
2 THE COURT: What he's asking you is, did
3 anyone from the government tell you that weapons
4 charges would be brought against you if you didn't
5 cooperate. Is that what your question was?
6 MR. WIBERG: Yes.
7 A. No. I don't recall that, no.
8 Q. But you weren't charged with the weapons
9 charge. You understand that the weapons charge
10 carries a minimum, correct?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. What's that minimum?
13 A. It's a minimum. I don't know. It's more
14 than what I want.
15 Q. And you know that the destructive device
16 carries an even higher minimum, correct?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. Do you know what that minimum is?
19 A. I do not.
20 Q. But you're not getting those charges, are
21 you?
22 A. No, I'm not.
23 Q. And that will never happen because you've
24 already pled guilty to your charges, correct?
25 A. I don't know, but I wasn't involved with the

45
1 making or anything of those --
2 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained. The jury will
4 disregard what he just said. Next question.
5 Q. Well, you handled weapons on the property,
6 correct?
7 A. My weapons.
8 Q. You carried weapons on the property.
9 A. My weapons.
10 Q. You handled the tannerite.
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. You handled the pipe bombs.
13 A. No pipe bombs, no.
14 Q. You had to think about that for a second.
15 Why?
16 A. Well, what are you calling a pipe bomb? I
17 saw a picture with a bucket full of pipe bombs, which
18 is what you would think, a pipe with two caps screwed
19 on, and then the zip guns with the spring mechanism on
20 them have been referred to as pipe bombs but --
21 Q. Okay. So you handled those?
22 A. One of those I did, yes.
23 Q. But you didn't get charged for that?
24 A. Well, no. I was just being shown that by Ed
25 Brown.
46
1 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the grand jury.
2 You went to the grand jury, and that was after the
3 debriefing, correct?
4 A. After a debriefing?
5 Q. After your proffer sessions.
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. And you were told about this thing where you
8 heard the prosecutors telling the grand jurors that,
9 you know -- or question you about, you understand you
10 won't be prosecuted unless you tell some lies in here,
11 correct?
12 THE COURT: Rephrase that. I'm sorry. I
13 didn't hear what you said.
14 MR. WIBERG: I'll withdraw it, Judge.
15 Q. And you have this thing that's called a
16 cooperation agreement. You were asked about that at
17 the grand jury, correct?
18 A. I'm not sure what you're talking about there,
19 either.
20 Q. Your proffer letter.
21 A. Oh, yes.
22 Q. You were asked about that at the grand jury,
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were told that what you said there in

47
1 the grand jury and what you said during the proffer
2 sessions couldn't be used against you in a prosecution
3 that you were already facing, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that they wouldn't bring new charges out
6 of what was said during either the proffer session or
7 the grand jury, correct, unless you lied?
8 A. Yeah, okay.
9 Q. But once again, who is going to decide
10 whether you lied?
11 A. I presume the government agency.
12 Q. The prosecutor. Okay. Who decides what the
13 truth is?
14 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection, your Honor.
16 Q. They asked about the fact that you were
17 involved with the Constitution Rangers, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you admitted that you had been even
20 before you were involved with the Browns, correct?
21 A. I did not, no.
22 Q. You hadn't been involved with that before you
23 met the Browns?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And the reason you went to the Browns was

48
1 because you read about their trial, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you actually visited their property
4 before they had been convicted and before they had
5 been taken into custody, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That's before any of these gentlemen were
8 involved, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you stuck with them the whole way through
11 until at least the end of August of '07, correct?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And in fact, you agreed that you worked to
14 help see that supplies were delivered to the Browns
15 during this period, correct?
16 A. Limited, yes.
17 Q. Okay, and in some cases you effectuated
18 delivery of items to your address for you to take them
19 to the Browns, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you mentioned before that the weapons you
22 remember bringing there were your pistol, correct?
24 Q. Which was what?
25 A. A 9 millimeter handgun.
49
1 Q. Okay, and that was all that you brought to
2 the property?
3 A. Yes. I went there one time and did some
4 target shooting, and I had a .306 hunting rifle and an
5 AK-47.
6 Q. And you had seen .50 caliber rifles that Mr.
7 Brown himself owned, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He owned Serbu rifles, right?
10 A. I don't know the brands. I know he had a .50
11 caliber.
12 Q. He had more than one, didn't he?
13 A. Well, he said he had two. I saw one that he
14 had.
15 Q. Now, you indicated during your grand jury
16 testimony that you never observed anybody making the
17 zip guns, correct?
18 THE COURT: Is that what you said to the
19 grand jury, is what he's asking you?
20 A. Yes. When I got there, they were already
21 partially assembled on his workbench at the Browns'
22 house.
23 Q. On the Browns' workbench?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in fact, you knew that they were to be

50
1 used with blank 12 gauge shotgun shells, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they were to make noise, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in the grand jury you didn't tell anybody
6 anything different. You didn't say that they were
7 there to injury anybody, correct?
9 Q. They were noisemakers, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So they weren't booby traps, were they?
12 A. Who makes up the decision what a booby trap
13 is? That's conjecture. I think a booby trap could be
14 different things.
15 Q. And in fact, you weren't the only one who
16 shot on the property, were you?
17 A. No, I wasn't.
18 Q. Lots of folks shot there because a lot of
19 people who came there were gun enthusiasts, correct?
20 A. Most everyone who showed up had some sort of
21 weapon, yes.
22 Q. And most of them were gun collectors, as
23 well, weren't they?
25 Q. And there was a wide variety of weapons that

51
1 people would bring in just to shoot on the shooting
2 range, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in fact, you never saw Mr. Riley with a
5 .50 caliber, did you?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. You saw a .50 caliber in Ed Brown's house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you don't recall Mr. Riley ever talking
10 to Mr. Brown about running any trip wires through the
11 woods, do you?
12 A. Well, the day they showed me the zip guns, I
13 think it was -- no. I don't recall a specific
14 conversation, no.
15 Q. Well, do you recall being asked that specific
16 question?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall Mr. Riley talking with Mr.
19 Brown about running trip wires through the woods?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. And your answer at that time was?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. WIBERG: May I approach the witness,
24 Judge?
25 THE COURT: You may.

52
1 MR. WIBERG: Page 16, for counsel.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you -- do you recognize this
3 question and do you recall being asked that question,
4 and I'm directing you to 16 here, and in particular
5 down here to the question that I asked you right here.
6 What was your answer right here? Now, don't read it
7 out loud. Just the portion I'm directing you to.
8 Does that refresh your recollection as to
9 what your answer was?
10 A. Well, it says here, but I don't recall that I
11 was asked that specific question so it's a little
12 nerve racking.
13 Q. You don't recall that? You don't doubt that
14 this is your transcript, do you?
15 A. Well, you're telling me that's from the grand
16 jury transcript?
17 Q. Well, let me get the full sized version. You
18 haven't had a chance to look through your grand jury
19 transcript?
20 A. I guess I haven't, no. I don't recall.
21 Q. It says, In Re: Riley. It was on January
22 9th; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you see at the end here where it's
25 certified that the court reporter went through it and

53
1 reported it accurately?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 16 again, and I'm
4 just going to ask you -- I just want you to read it to
5 yourself. Did I read that question correctly? I'm
6 going to read it out loud.
7 "Do you recall Mr. Riley talking with Mr.
8 Brown about running trip wires through the woods?"
9 Did I read that correctly?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the answer is no?
13 Q. And in fact you, yourself, provided some of
14 those pipe components, didn't you?
15 A. Yes. Some nipples and some caps.
16 Q. The ones that were found on the property,
17 correct?
18 A. It could only have been a few of those.
19 Maybe six or eight pieces of pipe that I brought to
20 Ed.
21 Q. You're the pipe man, aren't you?
22 A. I saw a lot of pictures of an awful lot of
23 pipe there.
24 THE COURT: He's asking you if you're the
25 pipe man. Are you the pipe man? That's what he's
54
1 asking you. Answer the question he's asking you. The
2 question was, are you the pipe man.
3 A. Am I the pipe man? No.
4 THE COURT: Next question.
5 Q. I don't mean to be flip. You were asked, "Do
6 you work with pipe in your business?"
7 A. Oh, yes. I do.
8 Q. Because you're a heating, ventilation and
9 air-conditioning contractor, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you have access to all that kind of, you
12 know, hardware, correct?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. The clamps, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The nipples?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The end caps?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The pipes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All of the items that were supposedly used to
23 make those what they called zip guns?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Or spring guns?
55
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that all came from you, didn't it?
3 A. No, it didn't.
4 Q. It didn't. Now, talking about the
5 tannerite -- you said that you saw the tannerite
6 there. You didn't have anything to do with bringing
7 it there, correct?
9 Q. And you said there were some things that were
10 put out that were tannerite explosives?
11 A. Mixed tannerite.
12 Q. And you talked about things with nails on
13 them that Ed put together?
14 A. I was asked if I had seen any of that, yes.
15 Q. And?
16 A. I had not seen any of those, no.
17 Q. You hadn't seen any?
18 A. No.
19 Q. At the time that you left the property at the
20 end of August, none of those things were up around the
21 area, were they?
22 A. Actually the end of August is when Ed pointed
23 them out to me, yes.
24 Q. Okay. So you actually saw them before you
25 left?
56
1 A. I saw the tannerite hanging in the trees.
2 Q. The tannerite hanging in the trees?
3 A. Nothing with nails attached to it or anything
4 like that.
5 Q. You didn't see anything with fuses in it, did
6 you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You didn't see any cans of anything with
9 nails attached to it, did you?
11 Q. And you denied at the grand jury that you had
12 seen anything that resembled pipe bombs in the house,
13 itself, correct?
14 A. That is correct, too.
15 Q. But you actually had, hadn't you?
16 A. No. I've never seen any pipe bombs in the
17 house.
18 Q. Have you ever been in their bedroom -- the
19 Browns' bedroom?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you ever been in their closet?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And you helped provide security?
24 A. In a way, yes.
25 Q. Same as you said somebody else here did,

57
1 correct?
2 A. The same as what?
3 Q. You said somebody else -- one of these folks
4 did that, as well, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in fact, you described the tannerite as
7 similar to a flash bang grenade, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you never saw Daniel Riley make any kind
10 of a dangerous explosive out of that, did you?
11 A. Any explosion can be dangerous. I'm not sure
12 where you're going.
13 Q. Well, you drew the distinction and you said a
14 flash bang grenade, correct?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. And that's mostly for the noise and the
17 flash, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you said that you had no deal with the
20 government, but you're expecting something, aren't
21 you?
22 A. I'm not expecting anything.
23 Q. Well, they let you plead guilty to some
24 charges but not others, didn't they?

58
1 THE COURT: Basis?
2 MR. HUFTALEN: Assumes facts not in evidence.
3 It's not what the witness has testified about.
4 THE COURT: He's asking the witness.
5 A. I pled guilty to what I was guilty of in this
6 whole thing.
7 Q. Now, they also told you -- did you think it
8 was odd that they wouldn't just sentence you when you
9 pled guilty?
11 A. No.
13 Q. Well, didn't they let you know that it would
14 hurt your value as a witness if you got your deal now?
16 THE COURT: I'm going to -- rephrase. I'm
17 going to sustain the objection based on the form. Ask
18 another question.
19 Q. Okay. You know who decides whether you get
20 some sort of benefit out of your testimony here today,
21 don't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. These guys decide whether or not what you
24 said was okay to have them file one of those 5K1.1
25 motions, correct?
59
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, in fact, there was more to -- actually,
3 let me withdraw that for a moment. One of the reasons
4 you're doing this is because you believed that they
5 were going to prosecute your wife, correct?
6 A. Why I'm doing -- yes.
7 Q. You actually don't believe in what you're
8 doing here today at all, do you?
9 A. Well, that's kind of vague. I'm here
10 because --
11 Q. Do you know Keith Champagne?
12 A. Yes. I've conversed with him, yeah.
13 Q. And you corresponded with him lately, as
14 well, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you told him that you didn't believe in
17 what you did, pleading guilty, correct?
18 A. Well, again, that's technical. The Browns
19 are still convicted, and I'm guilty here. If we can
20 eliminate the income tax and the IRS, then I'm not
21 guilty.
22 Q. In January you told Mr. Champagne in a letter
23 to him that the plea deal sucks, correct?
24 A. Well, any plea deal really kind of sucks.
25 Q. And you blamed it on the legal system,

60
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you blamed it on your defense lawyer,
4 saying that he works for the Court, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you believe that you shouldn't have to
7 plead guilty to this because you weren't guilty of
8 anything, correct?
9 A. Well, again, you know, you're splitting hairs
10 because until the Browns are found not guilty, then
11 I'm guilty of what I did, you know. Whether or not
12 it's actually illegal, you know, after that is
13 something else.
14 Q. You told Mr. Champagne that you felt that the
15 Feds were ruthless and determined to bury us, correct?
16 A. Well, you've got to understand that we, the
17 people, you know, like the jury -- the jury is
18 literally the government of this country, and those
19 who want to bury us, the people, is the bureaucracy
20 that we're forced to live under.
21 It's not anything other than that, and a lot
22 of the federal marshals feel that we're trying to
23 overthrow the government, when in fact it's just
24 controlling the bureaucracy is what we are trying to
25 do.
61
1 Q. You're trying to restore the government is
2 what you believe, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You're trying to restore the actual law,
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in fact, you complained right from the
8 get go that you hadn't been able to get your discovery
9 from your lawyer, correct?
10 A. It did take a while, yes.
11 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection. May we approach?
13 (SIDEBAR)
14 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you, Judge. I object.
15 Mr. Wiberg is now going and attempting to put in the
16 belief in taxes case that I believe he's already told
17 the Court it was not his intention to do. It's beyond
18 the scope and it's improper.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg, I specifically
20 indicated we're not going to try the legality of the
21 income tax laws.
22 MR. WIBERG: I understand but this --
23 THE COURT: The questions I've just heard is
24 an exposition of political beliefs with regard to who
25 is in charge of the government, the income tax laws

62
1 and issues that have no bearing whatsoever on guilt or
2 innocence in this case.
3 MR. WIBERG: They bear on the credibility of
4 this witness, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: We are not going to engage in an
6 exposition of the ideas of whether the income tax laws
7 or the bureaucracy runs this government or not, and
8 you should not have asked those questions. They're in
9 because they weren't objected to, but watch your step.
10 MR. WIBERG: Judge, let me make an offer of
11 proof. The fact is that you're right. You ruled out
12 this as a defense, but this goes to this man's state
13 of mind and his believability. He is confessing on
14 the stand, as he has in these letters, that he did
15 this not because he was guilty or believed he was
16 guilty but because he thought he had to. That's
17 proper cross.
18 THE COURT: I will look at that and make a
19 determination. I haven't seen anything like that.
20 You can ask him if he pled guilty because he felt he
21 was guilty. He's answered that question several
22 times. If you want to ask him that again, you're free
23 to ask him that again. I'll take every question,
24 question by question. I'm not going to give advance
25 rulings. My earlier ruling on the record stands.

63
2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, some of you
3 may have been wondering who this woman is that comes
4 up to the stand each time. She's my law clerk who
5 works for me and helps me do research -- just so you
6 know who has been coming up here every time.
7 Mr. Wiberg, you may continue.
8 MR. WIBERG: Thank you, your Honor.
9 Q. In fact, back in January, not long after you
10 had your -- let's see, your proffer session was
11 January 9th. You have a letter dated January 31st to
12 Mr. Champagne where you indicate there that, "The Feds
13 did threaten to indict Val if I did not accept the
14 plea agreement.", correct?
16 THE COURT: Overruled. Did you write that?
17 THE WITNESS: I wrote that, but that was in
18 reference to the proffer, actually. Not the plea
19 bargain. See, at that time Keith didn't know that I
20 had signed a proffer agreement, and that's just --
21 that was a letter to him just so he would, you know,
22 think --
23 Q. Mr. Wolffe, you knew you had signed it.
24 A. The proffer agreement, yes.
25 Q. You sign it before the grand jury, correct?

64
1 A. Signed what?
2 Q. The proffer agreement.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Because you had the proffer -- the grand jury
5 is January 9th, correct?
6 A. The proffer was September.
7 Q. Right. Months earlier.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you just tell this jury that --
10 THE COURT: The jury knows what he said. Ask
12 Q. Did you say that the reason you said this to
13 Keith Champagne was because he didn't know what you
14 said before? I don't quite understand that. Could
15 you explain?
16 A. Well, Keith was -- see, over the months Keith
17 said that -- the first thing I heard was that Danny
18 had made proffers and had said everything that I had
19 said in the proffers that I made, and he had made
20 mention that, you know, unfortunately Danny had spoke
21 about all of these things.
22 MR. SCULLY: Objection.
23 THE COURT: What's the basis?
24 MR. SCULLY: A hearsay statement of Daniel
25 Riley.
65
1 THE COURT: He's asking him why he did
2 something. Am I wrong?
3 MR. SCULLY: I think so.
4 THE COURT: All right. Let me see you.
5 (SIDEBAR)
6 THE COURT: You know, this is what happens
7 when you ask those kind of questions is you get this
8 kind of answer -- asking why he did certain things.
9 He's got now -- it is my clear understanding you asked
10 him why he wrote this if he was now giving
11 information.
12 MR. WIBERG: I understand.
13 THE COURT: This is what happens, and I'm
14 overruling your objection.
15 MR. SCULLY: I would move to strike, and I
16 would ask for a curative instruction.
17 THE COURT: I will not do that. That was a
18 question that was asked unobjected. I'm going to let
19 it stand, but this is what this leads to.
21 Q. Sir, isn't it fair to say that this letter at
22 the end of January is you telling Keith that you
23 didn't believe you were guilty and you were sorry you
24 had pled guilty?
25 A. No. That was telling Keith that -- you're

66
1 still referring to the point where the government
2 threatened my wife so I signed that? That was -- that
3 has nothing to do with my plea agreement. That was
4 referring in my mind back to my proffer, which I
5 didn't want to basically tell them that I had signed
6 the proffer.
7 THE COURT: Go ahead. Ask another question.
8 Q. But the proffer you signed, and then you made
9 true statements; is that what you're saying?
10 A. Yeah. The proffer that I signed was, I felt,
11 signed because my attorney had come to me and said, if
12 I don't sign the proffer, they will charge my wife
13 with a gun violation.
14 Q. So in other words, you gave up the
15 information not freely and voluntarily but because you
16 were worried they were going to charge your wife?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That was true, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You talked about your beliefs before. We
21 won't go into the details, but you never changed your
22 mind about your beliefs, have you?
23 A. Well, I mean I've seen the irrefutable
24 evidence that --
25 THE COURT: Hold it. The question is yes or

67
1 no. Have you changed your mind?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 THE COURT: There you go. Next question.
4 Q. And in fact, you wrote again on March 20th,
5 correct, to Keith?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told him at that time that you can't
8 wait for this to be over with -- your plea bargain --
9 correct?
11 Q. And you said, I should be out sometime within
12 the next 45 days.
13 A. That's wishful thinking, yes.
14 Q. And in fact, you believed that the worst you
15 would get would be 8 to 11 months?
16 A. No. That's the -- that's what the sentencing
17 guidelines come up with my attorney were.
18 Q. 8 to 11 months?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So that's what you think is what you would
21 get without your cooperation?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. WIBERG: Judge, may we approach?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 (SIDEBAR)
68
1 MR. WIBERG: Judge, I'm going to offer both
2 of these in as full exhibits because -- although he
3 just answered and said -- I'm sorry. I'm going to
4 offer both of these in. One, the January 31st as
5 Riley Exhibit T for ID. I would ask that that
6 actually be put in as a full exhibit, and Riley U as a
7 full exhibit. That's the March 20th letter.
8 The reason why, Judge, is because although he
9 finally said out of context in answer to one of my
10 last questions that he had never changed his beliefs,
11 he did, in fact, testify totally differently at
12 various points during my cross examination so these go
13 to his credibility, and although they may touch on
14 some of those areas you're talking about, they show
15 that this man is doing what he's doing for the reason
16 of getting the benefit. Not because he believes he
17 was guilty.
18 THE COURT: Okay. The government's position?
19 MR. HUFTALEN: I object. They're hearsay.
20 MR. BOWNES: I object.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Bownes objects on what basis?
22 MR. BOWNES: I object as to hearsay, number
23 one. Number two, I think he can review with the
24 witness what the statements were and use them perhaps
25 for impeachment purposes with respect to other

69
1 witnesses, but I think the rule limits him -- and I
2 think it's 603 or 604 -- to allowing the witness an
3 opportunity to review them and explain them, but I
4 don't think that they're admissible in and of
5 themselves at this point in time.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Norkunas or Mr. Scully?
7 MR. SCULLY: No objection, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Let me just take a look at it,
9 okay? All right. My ruling is that I'm excluding
10 these under 403. I believe that they touch on areas
11 that lead to a waste of time and confusion of the jury
12 in terms of the multiple issues that these exhibits
13 cover.
14 Mr. Wiberg, you are fully able and have up to
15 now done an excellent job on impeachment, and you can
16 continue to do that, but I'm not going to put them in
17 wholly because they contain too many irrelevant and
18 403 issues.
19 MR. WIBERG: Judge, can I just, so that I
20 have preserved it properly, ground this on the Sixth
21 Amendment right to cross examination, as well as the
22 Fifth Amendment right to due process?
23 THE COURT: You can ground it on whatever you
24 state on the record. They're excluded.
70
1 THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Wiberg.
2 Q. Sir, you indicated in response to I think it
3 was Mr. Huftalen's questions about your proffer
4 sessions that you were completely truthful except for
5 this one area?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that one area wasn't that very
8 consequential, was it?
9 A. Well, I didn't think it was at the time, no.
10 Q. Right, but in fact, they told you at the time
11 that they didn't believe you, correct?
12 A. That they didn't believe that I what?
13 Q. They told you they didn't think you were
14 being truthful through your proffer.
15 A. Well, no. Just at one point. They told me
16 specifically that they felt that I was being truthful
17 except for that one point.
18 Q. So if they said otherwise, then their
19 recollection is incorrect?
20 A. I guess so, yes. They might have questioned
21 the rest of it. They said once all of the other
22 evidence --
23 Q. There's no question pending at the moment,
24 sir. Now, we asked you about the range, and I asked
25 you about shooting next to the house. There were

71
1 other places on the property that people would go
2 target shooting, weren't there?
3 A. That one spot and maybe -- there's another
4 spot maybe a hundred feet from that to the left.
5 There's two ranges that he had set up. Both in the
6 same general area.
7 Q. You've never been to Danny Riley's house,
8 correct?
9 A. No, I haven't.
10 Q. Have you been in the service before?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. Okay. So you had that in common with all of
13 these gentlemen, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sorry, your Honor, if I could have a minute?
16 THE COURT: Take your time.
17 Q. You were aware of Mr. Riley's arrest at the
18 beginning of June, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it fair to say -- whereas before that, it
21 had been pretty uneventful, correct? After that
22 things got a little excited?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And people were worried even more than they
25 had before that there might be some kind of invasion,

72
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in fact, there was at least one incident
4 where everybody thought that there was an attack going
5 on, correct?
6 A. I doubted that one.
7 Q. You doubted that one?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But other people thought that there were
10 shots being fired by somebody other than the people
11 around you and your friends, correct?
12 A. That's what I heard, yes.
13 Q. You have said you would do anything to get
14 out of jail, haven't you?
15 A. I probably have, yes.
16 Q. You said it to your wife in one of those jail
17 telephone calls that was recorded, didn't you?
18 A. If it's recorded, then I guess I did say it,
19 yes. It's kind of a stressful time. I don't recall
20 everything that I've said.
21 Q. So you think you've said it more than once?
22 A. I'm sure I have. I talk to my wife quite
23 frequently.
24 Q. You would do anything to get out of jail,
25 correct?
73
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that includes saying anything you need to
3 say about these gentlemen, correct?
4 A. Anything that's the truth.
5 Q. Anything?
6 A. That's the truth.
7 THE COURT: Just a second. You answered the
8 question. Next question. Go ahead, Mr. Wiberg.
9 MR. WIBERG: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing
10 further.
11 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Mr. Bownes,
12 questions?
13 MR. BOWNES: I do, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Go right ahead.
15 CROSS EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. BOWNES:
18 A. Hello.
19 Q. My name is David Bownes, and I represent Mr.
20 Gonzalez. Do you recognize Cirino?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Okay, and I just want to understand where we
23 are in terms of what you recall about Mr. Gonzalez,
24 okay? Let's focus on that first.
25 As I understand it, you were involved with

74
1 the Browns from January of 2007 through August of
2 2007; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is.
4 Q. All right, and January to February did you
5 have occasion to visit the Brown residence?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And how many times did you visit the Brown
8 residence in those months? Infrequently, right?
9 A. Yeah. It was just a few times then.
10 Q. As I understand it, you went there over the
11 course of your association with the Brown residence
12 between 25 and 30 times, right?
14 Q. That's a ballpark. It could be 35. It could
15 be 20, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you usually went with your wife; is that
18 right?
19 A. No. I usually went alone.
20 Q. How often did your wife come with you to the
21 Brown residence?
22 A. Maybe 10 or 12 times.
23 Q. Okay. So half the time or slightly less than
24 half the time Valerie would come with you. Valerie
25 Wolffe is your wife, correct?

75
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As I understand it, you saw Cirino, Mr.
3 Gonzalez, there three or four times; is that correct?
5 Q. And you saw him there in the April, May, June
6 time frame; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if -- you tell me if I'm right, but
9 there were really two planned events that actually
10 occurred at the Brown residence that I'll call
11 jamborees. Do you know what I'm talking about when I
12 speak about jamborees?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. I'm talking about a gathering of folks who
15 come to the Brown residence to show their support for
16 Ed and Elaine and the issues that they were trying to
17 bring forward, right?
19 Q. And you recall two jamborees occurring in the
20 summer of 2007, don't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. One occurred in July of 2007 and one occurred
23 in June of 2007, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall a Jose Gonzalez, Mr.

76
1 Gonzalez's father, ever being at the Brown residence?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall Romero Gonzalez, Mr. Gonzalez's
4 half brother, ever being at the residence?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Okay, and that would have been at the June
7 jamboree, correct?
8 A. It was in that area -- in that time frame,
9 yes.
10 Q. Well, it was at the time of the jamboree, was
11 it not?
12 A. I really don't recall. I remember they were
13 there. I saw them one day when they were --
14 THE COURT: Hold it. He answered your
15 question. Ask another question. Don't wander after
16 you answer the question. If you don't recall, say you
17 don't recall. He'll ask you another question. Go
18 ahead.
19 Q. Let's try it this way. I'll ask you a
20 question and you give me a yes or no answer, and if
21 you think you need to explain it or have other
22 information, I'm sure the Court will allow you to do
23 that.
24 You don't recall whether it was, in fact, at
25 the June jamboree that you saw Mr. Gonzalez's father

77
1 and brother at the residence, correct?
3 Q. All right. Was it during those party
4 festivities in June that you recall seeing them?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And you would agree with me that after the
7 jamboree in June of 2007 that you never saw Mr. Cirino
8 Gonzalez at that residence again, right?
10 Q. And you would agree with me that there was
11 some kind of discussion between Mr. Ed Brown and the
12 Gonzalez family, and that after that discussion that's
13 when the entire Gonzalez family left the Brown
14 residence in Plainfield, New Hampshire, correct?
16 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge as to
17 what that discussion was, do you?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. You didn't participate in it. You didn't
20 hear it, correct?
22 Q. So it must have been prior to that June
23 departure that you saw Mr. Cirino Gonzalez at the
24 Brown residence three or four times, right?
25 A. Yes.
78
1 Q. Okay, and I think what you said was that Mr.
2 Gonzalez told you he was providing security?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, would that have been the same kind of
5 security that you provided; yes or no?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You provided counter surveillance security,
8 didn't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Gonzalez didn't do any
11 of that, did he?
12 A. I don't have any knowledge of that, no.
13 Q. Mr. Gonzalez didn't erect any barriers at the
14 premises, did he?
15 A. I don't know of any, no.
16 Q. Mr. Gonzalez didn't build any bombs at the
17 Plainfield residence, did he?
18 A. I don't know anything about that, either.
19 Q. As a matter of fact, while you were there
20 before that June departure by the Gonzalezes, there
21 weren't any bombs or any bomb making material at the
22 Brown residence, were there?
23 A. I never saw any.
24 Q. So you saw that bucket of what we'll call
25 spring guns or zip guns or booby trap parts sometime

79
1 in August of 2007 in Ed Brown's garage; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever go down into his cellar?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were down in his cellar, did you see
7 gasoline cans taped with nails?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You certainly never saw any gasoline cans in
10 an abnormal abundance prior to the Gonzalez departure
11 of June of 2007, did you?
12 A. I never saw any, no.
13 Q. Okay. You never saw Mr. Gonzalez put up any
14 trip wires outside the residence at the Brown
15 residence, did you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. As a matter of fact, there weren't any trip
18 wires or any kinds of devices at the Brown residence
19 prior to the Gonzalez departure in June of 2007; isn't
20 that true?
21 A. That's true.
22 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you what's marked as
23 Government's Exhibit 4. Maybe if I could just hold it
24 up this way, as I did before, with the Court's
25 permission. Do you recognize that?

80
1 A. Okay. The pond is quite a bit larger but --
2 THE COURT: He's just asking you if you
3 recognize it.
4 Q. Do you recognize that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That's kind of a diagram of the Brown
7 residence, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. In June of 2004 -- through the end of
10 June of 2004, there weren't any devices hanging in any
11 trees that are marked in purple, were there?
12 A. No, there wasn't.
13 Q. There weren't any booby trap devices that are
14 marked in blue at the Brown residence, were there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Prior to the Gonzalez departure in
17 June of 2007, there was what I'll call unfettered --
18 do you know what that word means? Anybody could go to
19 the Brown residence without being stopped by law
20 enforcement, correct?
22 Q. There weren't any marshals patrolling the
23 yard outside, correct?
24 A. That's incorrect.
25 Q. Incorrect. Are you referring to the June 7th

81
1 event with Mr. Riley?
2 A. No. You said there weren't any marshals
3 patrolling the ground.
4 Q. I don't know whether you're agreeing with me
5 or disagreeing with me. Were there any marshals
6 patrolling the Brown residence on the perimeter prior
7 to the Gonzalez departure in June of 2007 that you're
8 aware of?
9 A. Yes. They were in and around, sure, but not
10 on the property. I think it was just the road leading
11 to the house.
12 Q. Okay. Did anybody stop your access in June
13 of 2007 to the property?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. When you say that Mr. Gonzalez was
16 providing security -- in terms of providing security,
17 he had that pistol on him that you identified,
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He didn't set up watches in the towers or
21 telescopes to observe what was going around, did he?
22 A. I don't know. He just said he was a security
23 expert with military experience.
24 Q. That's what he told you he was?
25 A. Yes.
82
1 Q. A security expert with military experience?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Did he tell you that he was providing
4 security?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay, and was it that same conversation that
7 he said that I'm providing security, I'm a military
8 expert and a security expert?
9 A. Yeah. I would say he did, yes.
10 Q. Okay, and how many conversations did you have
11 with Mr. Gonzalez? I'm talking about Cirino now.
12 A. Very few.
13 Q. Very few?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So he never asked you to do anything to
16 provide security at the residence?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And the request that you talked about in
19 terms of counter surveillance, did they occur in June
20 of 2007?
21 A. I think that was in --
22 Q. July?
23 A. -- July. Yes.
24 Q. You talked about I think somebody following a
25 supporter in a store -- U.S. marshals following a

83
1 supporter in a store?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you responded to that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you boldly confronted the U.S. marshals
6 in this matter?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was in July of 2007?
9 A. I'm pretty sure it was July. Yes.
10 Q. Okay, and Mr. Gonzalez had nothing to do with
11 that, correct?
12 A. No. He wasn't there.
13 Q. He was gone at that point, wasn't he?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With respect to providing security to the
16 Browns in the April, May, June time frame of 2007, you
17 can't identify one specific act that Mr. Gonzalez did
18 other than carry around a shoulder holster with a
19 pistol in it, correct?
20 A. I did see him and Ed Brown go off with rifles
21 at one point.
22 Q. You saw them shoot rifles?
23 A. No. They were patrolling the property with
24 rifles.
25 Q. You say patrolling the property. What were

84
1 they doing?
2 A. Well, somebody had heard a noise, and they
3 went -- grabbed their rifles and went up the driveway
4 and they came back around.
5 Q. On how many occasions did that occur?
6 A. I saw that one time with Ed and Cirino and
7 maybe Danny and then another one later on with Jason
8 and Ed and Danny.
9 Q. One time with -- well, I'm confused.
10 A. Once Cirino was there.
11 THE COURT: That's not a question. I'm
12 confused is not a question.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: Ask a question.
15 Q. One time with Cirino?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE COURT: Wait.
18 Q. Anybody else involved in that one time?
19 A. Ed Brown.
20 Q. Ed Brown. Anybody else involved in that one
21 time?
22 A. Danny Riley.
23 Q. So it was Danny Riley, Cirino, Ed Brown and
24 anybody else?
25 A. No.
85
1 Q. Okay. When did Jason Gerhard get there?
2 A. I first met him I think it was either at the
3 first party in June or sometime thereafter before
4 July.
5 Q. When you talk about the first party, you're
6 referring to what I call the jamboree in June of 2007,
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Other than what you've just described of
10 somebody hearing a noise -- gunfire? What was it?
11 A. Somebody --
12 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Rephrase your
13 question. That's three questions.
14 Q. You say you observed Mr. Gonzalez, Danny
15 Riley and Ed Brown walking the property with a gun; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. What kind of gun did Mr. Gonzalez
19 have?
20 A. It was a rifle. I'm not sure what kind it
21 was.
22 Q. Was it a .50 caliber rifle?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know what -- can you identify what
25 type of rifle it was; yes or no?

86
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I know it wasn't a .50 caliber.
4 Q. That occurred in June, I take it, of 2007,
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know?
8 A. It must have been early June. Before the
9 jamboree.
10 Q. Did it occur as a result of a specific event
11 that you recall?
12 A. Yeah. A noise in the woods.
13 Q. A noise in the woods?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Did you see any U.S. marshals that
16 day?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you see any of those three -- did you see
19 Mr. Gonzalez point any weapons at anything that day?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Gonzalez point a weapon
22 at any human being in your entire time frame that you
23 knew him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Gonzalez threaten

87
1 anybody at any time during the entire time frame that
2 you knew him?
3 A. No.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Bownes, slow down, please,
5 because the court reporter is trying to take this
6 down. Slow it down.
7 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Mr. Gonzalez threaten
8 anybody during the entire time frame that you were
9 with him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't have -- you didn't discuss or have
12 an agreement with Mr. Gonzalez to do anything, did
13 you?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. In the June time frame do you -- let me ask
16 you more specifically. Do you know a Lauren Canario?
17 A. I met her, yes.
18 Q. When did you meet her, sir?
19 A. I met her January when I -- the first time I
20 was there.
21 Q. Has Lauren Canario been a visitor to the
22 Brown residence?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how often has she visited the Brown
25 residence?
88
1 A. I've seen her there three or four times.
2 Q. Do you know a James Johnson?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you observe Ms. Canario in the company of
5 an individual -- male individual on occasions?
6 A. I don't recall, no.
7 Q. You don't recall. That's okay. I don't
8 recall is a good answer, Mr. Wolffe. Okay.
9 THE COURT: The jury will disregard. Next
10 question.
11 Q. As I understand it, you had contact with a
12 Mr. James Hobbs; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Hobbs was there after the Gonzalez
15 departure in June of 2007, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In fact, he lived up in the trailer?
18 A. Motor home.
19 Q. The motor home up at the top of the driveway
20 at the Brown residence, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right, and when I say the top of the
23 driveway, if I may, I'm talking in this area up in
24 here, correct?
25 A. No, his motor home was parked by the garage

89
1 here.
2 Q. Down here by the garage?
3 A. By the garage.
4 THE COURT: What exhibit were you just
5 showing, for the record?
6 MR. BOWNES: Exhibit 4-A, for the record.
7 THE COURT: Very good.
8 Q. Did you ever meet a woman by the name of
9 Corinna Cooper?
10 A. Corinna -- that sounds familiar. I can't
11 picture who she is but --
12 Q. Do you recall whether she was at the first
13 jamboree in June of 2007?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Would you agree with me, if you know, that
16 the first jamboree occurred the weekend of June 23,
17 2007; do you know?
18 A. I don't know. I thought it was earlier, the
19 week before but --
20 Q. A week before what?
21 A. The 14th. I thought it was on the 14th
22 but --
23 Q. Well, I believe that what you're referring to
24 is the second jamboree that occurred on July 14, 2007.
25 There were two that summer; were there not?

90
1 A. Yes.
2 THE COURT: The jury will disregard the first
3 part of that question. The answer as to whether --
4 the last answer was there were two. You're making a
5 long predicate and then asking a different question.
6 Q. Okay. There were two jamborees in the summer
7 of 2007, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One in July and one in June, correct? The
10 one in July -- Mr. Gonzalez, as we already know, was
11 not there for that July jamboree, correct?
13 Q. Is it fair to say that the July jamboree was
14 more well attended than the June jamboree?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. And they had people there from all over the
17 country, didn't they, in July?
18 A. Around the world. I met some people from
19 Germany and England that had come up here.
20 Q. And they had people playing music, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. They had a band?
23 A. Five bands.
24 Q. And they did that in both July and June of
25 2007, correct?
91
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of
3 Terry Melton?
4 A. No. I know him, but I don't know the name.
5 Q. Do you recall if there was an individual who
6 came to the June jamboree and the July jamboree who
7 videotaped or recorded with a video the events of
8 those celebrations, I'll call them?
9 A. There was quite a few people with video
10 cameras there then.
11 Q. Were you present at the Brown residence the
12 day that Dan Riley was taken into custody or arrested?
13 Do you recall -- were you there then?
14 A. I wasn't there that day. I think I came by
15 the next day.
16 Q. You responded to the Brown residence because
17 of what occurred when Mr. Riley was arrested; is that
18 right?
19 A. Uh --
20 Q. Or did you just happen to --
21 THE COURT: Hold it. That's a second
22 question. Start again.
23 A. I don't think I --
24 THE COURT: Hold it. He's going to start
25 again. Ask another question.

92
1 Q. Did you go to the Brown residence because you
2 heard about Mr. Riley's arrest?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you go to the Brown residence shortly
5 after Mr. Riley's arrest and hear about it then?
6 A. I knew about it previously, but I just went
7 there -- I was planning on visiting anyway.
8 Q. Okay. When you went there, was that so --
9 when you were driving there, you knew that Mr. Riley
10 had been taken into custody, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. When you went there, were there
13 any U.S. marshals or law enforcement stationed out in
14 the driveway?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was there any impediment to you entering the
17 premises?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How many people were there at that time?
20 A. There was quite a few. There was probably
21 ten or twelve people there at that time.
22 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Gonzalez there at that time?
23 Cirino.
24 A. I don't recall seeing him, in particular, but
25 he might have been.

93
1 Q. He might have been standing around?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It's fair to say that whatever he was doing
4 didn't attract your attention, particularly, correct?
6 Q. He wasn't out patrolling the perimeter with
7 his rifle or anything like that, correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And he wasn't up in the tower. You know what
10 I mean by the tower. Like looking over all of the
11 events, correct?
13 Q. If he was there, he was just sort of there
14 with everybody else, correct?
15 A. He was usually on his computer when I was
16 there.
17 Q. Now, we've heard some evidence with respect
18 to what has been described as a red alert on July 29th
19 of 2007, and I think there were extensive radio -- I'm
20 just telling you this so you're familiar -- radio
21 interview of Mr. Riley at a station down in Texas.
22 Have you ever heard of that radio interview before?
23 A. No, I haven't.
24 Q. Okay. Do you know what I'm talking about?
25 A. Yes, I do.
94
1 Q. And were you there at that time?
2 A. No, I wasn't. No.
3 Q. So you don't know what happened, correct?
5 Q. Did you respond to the red alert that Danny
6 Riley put out that night?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Did you respond the next day to the red alert
9 that Danny put out that night?
10 A. I didn't know anything about a red alert, but
11 I was there the next day, yes.
12 Q. Didn't you tell the investigators that you
13 think that you and Valerie were the only ones who came
14 to respond to the "red alert"?
15 A. Well, we were the only ones that showed up
16 after that event. The red alert -- again, that was
17 something that I heard about later.
18 Q. Okay. I just want to understand the sequence
19 of statements, and I know I'm going to repeat
20 everybody else a little bit, but you were arrested on
21 September 12th of 2007, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You know that Mr. Gerhard and Mr. Riley and
24 Mr. Gonzalez were also arrested on September 12th of
25 2007, correct?
95
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. On Tuesday, September 18th of
3 2007, you were interviewed by the United States
4 Attorney right here in Concord in this building,
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it was at that time that you were worried
8 that your wife was going to be indicted, also,
9 correct?
10 A. No. It was before that when I was first --
11 the day I was indicted with the proffer signing.
12 Q. When you went in to speak with the U.S.
13 Attorneys on September 18, 2007, you were worried that
14 Valerie was going to be indicted, weren't you?
15 A. No. It was only the day before when I signed
16 the proffer. I signed the proffer to keep that from
17 happening.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. BOWNES: Could I see 20-H?
20 THE COURT: It's not in evidence. 20-H?
21 MR. HUFTALEN: It's just 20.
22 THE COURT: Is that what you're holding, sir?
23 MR. HUFTALEN: 20 ID.
24 THE COURT: Be aware it's not in evidence.
25 MR. BOWNES: I understand.

96
1 Q. I just want to ask you, that letter bears a
2 date; does it not?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. And that date is correct as to when you
5 signed the proffer, correct?
6 A. Yes. I guess it is.
7 Q. Okay, and that was September 18th of 2007,
8 correct?
9 A. Oh, okay. The proffer that I signed -- I
10 don't know. There was another document that I signed
11 on the 12th.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I'm not sure what that -- what either has to
14 do with --
15 Q. Well, I'm just asking you, this document
16 bears your signature?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. And it has the date of September 18, 2007,
19 correct?
20 A. Yes, it does.
21 Q. On September 18th United States marshals
22 specifically asked you if you're aware of any imminent
23 threats to any U.S. marshals, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right, and you told them that you

97
1 weren't, but that Ed Brown had his own secret hit
2 list, correct?
4 Q. And that was between Ed Brown and his God,
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that you didn't know anything about it,
8 right?
10 Q. And as far as you knew, nobody else knew
11 anything about a secret hit list for U.S. marshals or
12 anybody else, correct?
14 Q. Okay, and that secret hit list --
15 MR. WIBERG: Your Honor, may we approach?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 (SIDEBAR)
18 MR. WIBERG: Judge, it's very difficult with
19 the speed that we're having this cross and the fact
20 that this stuff comes tumbling out. I object to
21 anything further about the --
22 MR. BOWNES: I'll slow down.
23 THE COURT: I'll listen to every objection
24 counsels wants to make. Right now there's no
25 objection pending.
98
1 MR. WIBERG: Well, I object to this.
2 THE COURT: There's no question pending.
3 MR. SCULLY: Judge, I would move to strike
4 the last set of testimony as irrelevant.
5 THE COURT: What's the relevance?
6 MR. BOWNES: It goes to his credibility, your
7 Honor.
8 THE COURT: It's credibility.
10 Q. Let me see if I can ask you this in a
11 different way. This secret hit list nobody knew about
12 except Ed Brown. Not even you, correct?
15 Q. You're not aware of any way in which Mr.
16 Gonzalez was ever involved in any kind of a hit list
17 or threat to do harm to anybody, are you?
18 A. No, I'm not.
20 THE COURT: Hold it. The jury will disregard
21 that answer until I've ruled.
22 MR. WIBERG: Foundation, relevance, hearsay.
23 THE COURT: The jury will disregard the
24 answer. Ask another question.
25 Q. On September 18th of 2007, do you give a

99
1 truthful if only partial statement to the U.S.
2 Attorney's Office?
3 A. Partial in what way?
4 Q. Did you include everything that you knew on
5 September 18, 2007?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. They bring you back to the U.S. Marshal's
8 Office on September 21st of 2007; do they not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Three days later, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay, and they first interview you at
13 10:30 a.m., correct?
14 A. I don't recall the time exactly.
15 THE COURT: The answer is yes. I don't
16 remember, no.
17 A. I don't remember.
18 THE COURT: Don't add because no one knows
19 whether they can object if they don't know what you're
20 going to say because it isn't responsive to the
21 question so listen to the question and just answer the
22 question. If he wants to ask another question, he'll
23 ask.
24 Q. I'm going to show you a report that indicates
25 a time on the first sentence.

100
1 THE COURT: What are you showing him?
2 MR. BOWNES: A report of that --
3 THE COURT: Exhibit?
4 MR. BOWNES: It's not an exhibit, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Use a sticker.
6 MR. BOWNES: I think I've got it identified
7 as a sticker.
8 THE COURT: Is this a Gonzalez exhibit?
9 MR. BOWNES: It is.
10 THE COURT: While he's doing that, ladies and
11 gentlemen, I'm going to try to finish this witness
12 before we finish for the day. I may keep you longer.
13 I haven't asked you about the 3:00 o'clock yet.
14 MR. BOWNES: I've already got it identified.
15 THE COURT: As Gonzalez?
16 MR. BOWNES: As Gonzalez Exhibit L-3 for ID.
17 THE COURT: Gonzalez L-3. Go ahead.
18 MR. WIBERG: Is there a Bates number? Excuse
19 me, counsel. Is there a Bates number?
20 MR. BOWNES: Yeah. 2227.
21 MR. WIBERG: Thank you.
22 Q. L-3 for ID, just refer to the top sentence,
23 if you would.
24 A. Do you want me to read it?
25 THE COURT: No. Don't read anything. He

101
1 just said look at it.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Let us know when you are done
4 looking at it.
5 THE WITNESS: I am done.
6 THE COURT: You can ask a question.
7 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
8 what time of the day you were interviewed at that
9 particular time?
10 A. Yes, it does.
11 Q. What time was it?
12 A. 10:30.
13 Q. Now, they brought you in because they had
14 some more questions for you from the 18th of 2007,
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. They weren't -- to paraphrase,
18 they weren't trusting the information that you gave
19 them on the 18th; is that correct?
22 Q. They had follow-up clarification questions
23 for you on September 21st regarding the information
24 you had given them on the 18th, correct?
25 A. No.
102
1 Q. Okay. After they interviewed you at 10:30,
2 they then interviewed you again that same day, didn't
3 they?
4 A. I think I was there most of that day.
5 Q. Okay. There are actually two reports made on
6 that day. One starting at 10:30, and the second time
7 they brought you back to testify, right?
8 A. Was there a 10:30? I assume I left sometime
9 at --
10 THE COURT: The question is, were there two
11 reports that day?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know what they
13 reported, no.
14 THE COURT: Very good. Next question.
15 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you what's been
16 marked as Defendant's Exhibit L-2 for ID.
17 THE COURT: Gonzalez L-2.
18 MR. BOWNES: Let me get the Bates stamp
19 number, if I may, your Honor.
21 MR. BOWNES: Bates stamp 0135.
22 A. Okay. This is --
23 THE COURT: He hasn't asked you anything yet.
24 Go ahead, Mr. Bownes.
25 Q. The first question says what?

103
1 THE COURT: No. That's not in evidence.
2 You're not going to have him read it.
3 Q. Okay. Read the first sentence.
4 THE COURT: Don't read it out loud. This is
5 not in evidence. You can't read from an exhibit not
6 in evidence. Ask another question.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to how
9 many interviews occurred on September 21st of 2007?
10 A. Just the one. The other one was September
11 18th.
12 Q. Let's do it this way. I'm going to show you
13 what's been marked for ID Exhibits L-3 and L-2, all
14 right? I'm going to ask you if you would please
15 review those, sir. Don't testify what's in them.
16 THE COURT: Just take a look at them. Let us
17 know when you're done. Jury, feel free to stretch or
18 not.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a series of
21 questions about this. You were first interviewed on
22 September 21st at 10:30 a.m., correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then you were reinterviewed on that same day,
25 correct?
104
1 A. I never left but --
2 THE COURT: The only question he's asking you
3 is if you were reinterviewed.
4 A. I would have to say no. I thought it was all
5 one interview.
6 Q. That's not how it's described in the reports,
7 correct?
8 A. Right. Again, I'm not familiar with how they
9 do paperwork so --
10 Q. All right. The second interview -- or what
11 I'll call the second part of the long interview that
12 happened all day had to do with the power at the Brown
13 residence, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. They wanted to know how the power got to the
16 residence, what they were using, that kind of stuff,
17 correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Gonzalez, to your knowledge, had
20 nothing to do with any power at the Plainfield Brown
21 residence, did he?
22 A. No.
23 Q. He didn't set power up. He didn't connect
24 anything. He didn't have anything to do with that
25 stuff at all, did he?

105
1 A. As far as I know, he did not.
2 Q. Okay. With respect to -- did you observe any
3 motion lights at the Brown residence in the June time
4 frame of 2007?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Gonzalez didn't have anything to
7 do with any motion lights or you didn't see him
8 setting up any motion lights in terms of --
9 THE COURT: Hold it. One question at a time.
10 One question. Start again.
11 Q. Mr. Gonzalez didn't have anything -- strike
12 that. Let's start again.
13 MR. BOWNES: Thank you, Judge, for your
14 patience.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 Q. You didn't see Mr. Gonzalez involved with any
17 of the mechanics of the motion devices at the Brown
18 property at any time during the times you observed him
19 there, did you?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. You didn't see him install any monitors at
22 the Brown residence, did you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't see him wire any monitors at the
25 Brown residence, did you?

106
1 A. No.
2 Q. You didn't see him do anything with respect
3 to the power, as I think we've talked about, at the
4 Brown residence, correct?
6 Q. The Browns had solar heating panels out at
7 their residence, didn't they?
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. And were they active in June of 2007?
11 Q. Okay, and were you familiar with the power
12 source for the solar powered panels or where they put
13 their energy into? Were you familiar with the
14 batteries?
15 A. I know where the batteries are, yes.
16 Q. Where were they?
17 A. In the garage.
18 Q. Were there a whole bank of batteries?
19 A. Yes, there was.
20 Q. Were those batteries there when you first got
21 to the residence in January of 2007?
23 Q. So that wasn't something installed as a
24 result of this movement, so to speak, was it?
25 A. No, it wasn't.
107
1 Q. Now, you indicated lots of individuals were
2 carrying lots of guns on the property; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right, and with respect to those
6 individuals, did any of them use their weapons in a
7 threatening way?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did any of them say, we're going to shoot
10 U.S. marshals if they come on the property?
11 A. I --
12 Q. The only one who said --
13 THE COURT: Hold on. Is your answer no?
14 A. No.
15 THE COURT: All right. Next question.
16 Q. The only one who ever hinted at that or said
17 that was Ed Brown?
19 THE COURT: Basis?
20 MR. SCULLY: Hearsay.
22 MR. WIBERG: Objection, your Honor. May we
23 approach?
25 (SIDEBAR)
108
1 MR. WIBERG: Judge, I agree with background,
2 but we're back to this issue of the unindicted
3 co-conspirator. Although he hasn't even been named
4 specifically by the government as the unindicted
5 co-conspirator, it's obvious, and unless the
6 government is going to grant Ed Brown immunity, we
7 won't be able to cross examine him even if we bring
8 him in here ourselves.
9 THE COURT: Petrozziello doesn't require you
10 to be able to cross examine the co-conspirator, does
11 it? Is the document alleging that the Browns are one
12 of these co-conspirators named in the indictment?
13 MR. HUFTALEN: Yes.
14 THE COURT: I just heard the government say
15 yes. It's obvious since the beginning of the case so
16 why isn't it admissible? I'm willing to learn,
17 gentlemen.
18 MR. WIBERG: Actually, he's not named in the
19 indictment. He's talked about as a --
20 THE COURT: It says conspirators known and
21 unknown -- co-conspirators. You guys should talk to
22 each other. One of you is opening up issues on
23 others. I don't know what to tell you.
24 MR. SCULLY: I would also add as an
25 objection, Judge, that the witness was asked whether

109
1 anyone ever made any comments about shooting U.S.
2 marshals if they came on the property. The answer to
3 that was no. Now this follow-up question about Ed
4 Brown, it assumes facts not in evidence and I would
5 object.
6 THE COURT: Wait a second. It is in evidence
7 if he testified to it.
8 MR. SCULLY: He did not. I think he
9 testified --
10 THE COURT: One at a time. Speak here.
11 MR. SCULLY: He was asked that question in
12 general terms, did anybody -- I presume anybody
13 includes Ed Brown -- and he said no, and I think that
14 should be the last question on that line.
15 THE COURT: But then he asked another
16 question, didn't he?
17 MR. SCULLY: Well, then what counsel did was
18 he included Ed Brown and said, I believe and --
19 MR. BOWNES: Look, all I want to state is --
20 THE COURT: So the witness has said both
21 things. At the best of your position, he said
22 inconsistent things. Isn't that a jury issue?
23 MR. SCULLY: That would be if that's what
24 he's saying.
25 THE COURT: I cannot, as the judge, tell a

110
1 lawyer that he is opening up doors. That's not my
2 job. Tell me what I'm supposed to do, gentlemen.
3 MR. WIBERG: I mean this is the obvious
4 prejudice of having the consolidated trial, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Three defendants are fully able
6 to be tried together. We're not dealing with a burden
7 issue here. We're dealing with different trial
8 strategy in some respects. That happens in many, many
9 cases. Right now there's nothing pending before me.
10 Let's get to work.
11 MR. WIBERG: Judge, just so I make my full
12 record, once again I think Crawford covers this
13 because the dust hasn't settled in Crawford.
16 THE COURT: Let's move on.
17 Q. Did you become familiar with Elaine Brown?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you consider her a friend?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. She never threatened anybody, did she?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I just want to cover the bases. Do you know
24 a woman by the name of Lisa Mullinex?
25 A. No.
111
1 Q. Do you recall whether -- well, do you recall
2 Randy Weaver being there at the June jamboree?
3 A. I remember Randy Weaver being there, yes.
4 Q. Randy Weaver was one of the people who was
5 charged with federal offenses out of Ruby Ridge; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right, and Mr. Weaver came to the Brown
9 residence in that June time frame of 2007, didn't he?
10 A. Yes, he did.
11 Q. He was kind of a rally speaker for everybody,
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In terms of the discovery, did you ever
15 review a video with Mr. Gonzalez and Mr. Weaver and
16 Elaine Brown on the porch of the Brown residence? Did
17 you ever see that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I'm not going to show it to you now. You
20 don't know a woman by the name of Lisa Mullinex?
21 THE COURT: You asked him that question.
22 MR. BOWNES: All right. May I have a moment,
23 your Honor?
25 (Attorney Bownes confers with Mr. Gonzalez)

112
1 MR. BOWNES: Thank you, Mr. Wolffe.
2 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Government?
3 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Redirect.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. HUFTALEN:
7 Q. Mr. Wolffe, were you ever charged with any
8 gun violations in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you ever told that you would be charged
11 with gun violations in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. When you pled guilty, were there any charges
14 that were dismissed?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever bring guns and leave them in Mr.
17 Brown's house?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever bring any explosive devices to
20 Mr. Brown's house?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever manufacturer any explosive
23 devices at Mr. Brown's house?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever bring tannerite to his house?

113
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever assemble any spring guns at his
3 house or other places?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever place any destructive devices on
6 his property?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did Mr. Brown ever ask you to get a gun for
9 somebody on his property?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did he ever ask you to get a gun for his
12 wife, Elaine?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Why not?
17 A. It just -- I didn't want to be involved in
18 that way in his standoff.
19 Q. Mr. Wiberg asked you some specific questions
20 about your grand jury testimony, and with the Court's
21 permission I'm going to walk up next to you because I
22 want you to look at something as I ask you a question.
23 THE COURT: Go ahead.
24 MR. SCULLY: Could we just get a page and
25 line before you ask the question, please?

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1 THE COURT: Is there a --
2 MR. HUFTALEN: Page 16, line 18, continuing
3 on to page 17.
4 MR. SCULLY: Could I just have one second,
5 please?
6 THE COURT: Just a second. Let counsel find
7 it.
8 MR. HUFTALEN: Certainly.
9 MR. SCULLY: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Wolffe, let me represent to you that
11 this is a transcript of your grand jury testimony of
12 January 9, 2008. Do you recall being there?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Do you recall testifying under oath before
15 the grand jury?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Wiberg asked you whether or not you
18 recall this question and this answer, starting at line
19 18 on page 16.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "Let me ask you specifically, do you recall
22 Mr. Riley talking with Mr. Brown about running trip
23 wires through the woods? Answer: No." Do you recall
24 that question being asked and that answer being given?
25 A. Yes.
115
1 Q. And you're the one who gave the answer,
2 right?
3 A. I am.
4 Q. Do you recall the following question being
5 asked: "Do you recall Mr. Hobbs discussing that with
6 him?", and the following answer by you being given --
7 MR. BOWNES: Well, he is reading the
8 transcript, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: I understand that. Go ahead.
10 Q. "I am pretty sure we were all, you know, on
11 the porch at one point, and I'm not sure in the
12 presence of the explosive devices. I don't recall. I
13 know we did talk about it, but I'm not sure what the
14 time frame was." Do you recall that question being
15 asked and that answer being given by you?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And do you recall the next question being
18 asked: "Let me ask it a different way."
19 MR. WIBERG: Objection, your Honor.
21 MR. WIBERG: A, it's leading, and B, it's
22 discussing a question --
23 THE COURT: Why don't you ask him -- read the
24 question to him. You can ask him if that question was
25 answered and refresh his memory.

116
1 MR. WIBERG: Judge --
2 THE COURT: Don't show it to him. Go read
3 the question to him. Ask if he remembers that
4 question.
5 Q. Do you recall being asked the following
6 question: "Let me ask it a different way. You don't
7 have any doubt that Mr. Riley talked with Mr.
8 Brown --"
9 MR. WIBERG: Judge, objection. The original
10 question was leading. This question is leading. It's
11 introducing facts that are not in evidence.
12 THE COURT: Ask him a summary of whether he
13 knows that, and then you can use it depending on how
14 it's used.
15 Q. Do you recall being asked a follow-up
16 question about Mr. Riley's involvement with certain
17 things at the Browns?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall being asked the following
20 question then: "Let me ask it a different way. You
21 don't have any doubt that Mr. Riley talked with Mr.
22 Brown at some point about the placement of traps and
23 explosives?" Did you answer that question?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. WIBERG: Judge, objection. May we

117
1 approach?
3 (SIDEBAR)
4 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg, go right ahead.
5 MR. WIBERG: I move for a mistrial because
6 that's absolutely inappropriate.
7 THE COURT: Go ahead. Put it on the record.
8 MR. WIBERG: Here is the thing. You've got a
9 grand jury proceeding where there's no lawyer even
10 allowed to be there. We don't have an opportunity to
11 confront it at that time. The prosecution is leading
12 all through the grand jury transcript because it's not
13 getting all of the details it wants and it's allowed
14 to do that, but to allow that to be introduced here
15 through Mr. Huftalen's leading questions is absolutely
16 a double violation.
17 THE COURT: First of all, Mr. Bownes opened
18 the door. Second of all, your motion for a mistrial
19 is denied. Third of all, ask him what he knows about
20 it. Don't just read him the transcript. Ask him --
21 if you need to use it for refreshment or any other
22 reason, I'll rule on it at that time, but just ask him
23 the information.
24 MR. HUFTALEN: Your Honor, with due respect,
25 I think it was Mr. Wiberg who, in fact, read the

118
1 question and the answer.
2 THE COURT: And you read the next question
3 and answer.
4 MR. HUFTALEN: Leaving the sense with the
5 jury of what I believe was a false sense. I'm
6 offering these questions and answers as substantive
7 evidence. I'm offering them as prior consistent
8 statements to rebut the inference of recent
9 fabrication, which Mr. Wiberg has left with the jury,
10 and I think I can read the question and the answer in
11 their entirety.
12 MR. WIBERG: I have the answer to that. If
13 it's a prior inconsistent statement, it has to occur
14 before the justification or the reason for
15 falsification. This is obviously not the case. That
16 doesn't apply. To do a rehabilitation --
17 THE COURT: The fabrication event is today.
18 MR. WIBERG: No. That's not what I'm talking
19 about. To introduce it as a prior consistent
20 statement he has to have a motivation at that time
21 that he's not facing any retaliation, and in fact,
22 clearly he's got a motivation to help the government
23 at that time because he's being prosecuted.
24 THE COURT: It's late. Start again. You
25 lost me.
119
1 MR. WIBERG: That exception to the hearsay
2 rule -- if I haven't been arrested yet, for instance,
3 on something and I say -- make a statement before I've
4 been arrested, then I can use that statement because I
5 don't have the motivation to fabricate, but once I've
6 been arrested and once I'm in the process of being
7 prosecuted, prior consistent statement doesn't even
8 apply.
9 THE COURT: I'm not going to allow these
10 questions. There's not an adequate foundation.
12 Q. Mr. Wolffe, did you have conversations with
13 Mr. Riley about the placement of traps and explosives?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you discuss the placement of traps and
16 explosives on the Brown property with Mr. Riley while
17 you were on the property with Mr. Riley?
18 A. Yes. I'm pretty sure we did.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to the
20 questions that you were asked concerning your wife and
21 potential charges against your wife, let me ask you a
22 few questions. Was your wife ever charged with any
23 violations in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you aware that your wife had been

120
1 interviewed by the Marshal Service and had made
2 certain statements?
3 MR. WIBERG: Objection. Assumes facts not in
4 evidence.
5 THE COURT: He's asking him if he knew. You
6 can answer the question.
7 MR. WIBERG: It's also leading, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Yes or no?
9 A. At that time I'm not sure if I did or not.
10 THE COURT: Next question.
11 Q. Do you know whether your wife spoke to the
12 Marshal Service?
13 A. I know it now, yes.
14 Q. Do you know if she spoke to them about
15 firearms?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know whether she talked to them about
18 firearms being brought to the Browns?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. WIBERG: That's a way of introducing
21 hearsay, Judge.
22 MR. HUFTALEN: I don't know how else to --
23 THE COURT: Let me see counsel.
24 (SIDEBAR)
25 THE COURT: Who raised the objection?

121
1 MR. WIBERG: I did.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg, your objection is
3 hearsay?
4 MR. WIBERG: Yes.
5 THE COURT: My understanding is -- I
6 understand your objection. It is hearsay. My
7 understanding is that the government is not putting
8 this in for the truth. It's putting it in for his
9 state of mind of why he cooperated and that's not
10 hearsay, and I'll give the jury a limiting
11 instruction. Does anyone disagree with that?
12 MR. WIBERG: No. That's fine.
14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, what you're
15 about to hear in terms of what his wife may have said
16 or whatever is not to be considered by you for the
17 truth of what she said. It's to be considered only as
18 to his motivation -- why he did certain things or
19 didn't do certain things. In other words, knowing
20 what he thought his wife said, he may have done
21 certain things. He may not have done certain things.
22 That's the only reason you are to consider it. Not
23 what he says his wife said was actually true or false.
24 You may continue. Does anyone want more than that?
25 MR. SCULLY: No, your Honor.

122
1 MR. WIBERG: No, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I don't hear anybody. Okay. Go
3 ahead. You can redo the question.
4 Q. Do you understand that your wife spoke with
5 the Marshal Service shortly after your arrest
6 concerning firearms?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. About bringing firearms to the Brown
9 residence?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you concerned in light of that that she
12 may be charged with firearms offenses?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did that enter your mind when you made the
15 decision to speak with the government by way of the
16 proffer agreement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that motivated in part because you wanted
19 to explain the facts?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And to explain her non-involvement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Has she ever been charged?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You entered a plea agreement in this case on

123
1 January 22, 2008, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in that plea agreement you agreed that
4 you were guilty; did you not?
6 Q. Do you recall at that plea agreement whether
7 or not the judge asked you while you were under oath
8 whether there were any threats or coercion exerted
9 upon you that caused you to plead guilty?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was your answer under oath at that
12 time?
13 A. No coercion.
14 Q. You pled guilty because you were guilty,
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the time you pled guilty you understood
18 that the penalties that you faced were a maximum of
19 six years on Count 1, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Five years on Count 2?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And 42 1/2 years on Count 3, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There were no promises in that plea agreement

124
1 by the government to file a motion to reduce your
2 sentence, were there?
3 A. No, there wasn't.
4 Q. There was a provision that said the
5 government may file to reduce your sentence, correct?
7 Q. But there were no guarantees?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. The plea agreement also said that you
10 understood that the determination of whether to file
11 such a motion was within the sound discretion of the
12 U.S. Attorney's Office, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. WIBERG: Judge, these are all leading.
15 THE COURT: Yes, they are leading. Objection
16 is sustained. There was no question pending. Ask
18 Q. Did anyone from the government ever tell you
19 that the government could control what sentence you
20 got?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who is going to control -- which officer will
23 control what you get, the government or someone else?
24 A. Someone else.
25 Q. Who?
125
1 A. The judge.
2 Q. You understood that when you pled guilty,
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As we stand here today, has the government
6 made you any promises in exchange for your testimony?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What has the government told you would happen
9 if you lie?
10 A. I could be charged with perjury or other
11 charges.
12 Q. The spring guns, the booby trap devices, if
13 you will, when's the first time you ever saw one of
14 those?
15 A. I think it was the first week in August.
16 Q. Where were you when you first saw it?
17 A. First saw it?
18 Q. First saw it.
19 A. At my house.
20 Q. How is it that you saw it at your house?
21 A. Danny had come by to pick up a box of items
22 that someone had sent, and he had a box of these guns
23 in a box, and he described it as a project that him
24 and Ed had designed or came up with.
25 Q. And then later you saw them again?

126
1 A. In Ed's garage, yes.
2 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you. Nothing further,
3 Judge.
4 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Huftalen. Mr.
5 Scully?
6 MR. SCULLY: Could I have just one moment,
7 your Honor?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. SCULLY: No questions, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Wiberg?
11 MR. WIBERG: Just briefly, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: All right. Recross.
13 RECROSS EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. WIBERG:
15 Q. Sir, you just answered questions by Mr.
16 Huftalen by saying that you and Mr. Riley discussed
17 placement of traps and explosives. Do you remember
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You didn't say that in your prior testimony,
21 did you?
22 A. I might have if I thought Ed was involved in
23 that, too, yes.
24 Q. But you said you weren't involved in any of
25 that.
127
1 A. No. That was the day that I saw them that
2 they were putting them together they started
3 discussing where they were going to put these items.
4 Q. Wait, sir. You just said they discussed it,
5 but in your answer you said you and Dan Riley
6 discussed it.
7 A. It was in a conversation when they showed me
8 the devices, what they were going to do with them,
9 where they were going to place them and how they were
10 going to set them off.
11 Q. But you were directly involved; is that
12 correct?
13 A. No. I was just being told what was already
14 planned.
15 Q. You understand if you were directly involved
16 with the placement of the explosives or traps, that's
17 the destructive device language from the other
18 indictment that you didn't get, right?
19 A. No. I don't understand all that, no.
20 Q. You know that those are the basis for the
21 other charges you didn't get?
22 A. No. I don't know that. I was --
23 THE COURT: Hold it. Another question.
24 Q. You were discussing with Daniel Riley --
25 according to you now -- the placement of traps and

128
1 explosives.
2 A. They were telling me what they were going to
3 do with these devices once they had them built.
4 Q. Is it they, or is it Daniel Riley?
5 A. Well, Danny and Ed Brown.
6 Q. Oh, okay. Let's go back a second because
7 you -- there's another question. You were asked about
8 seeing Cirino walking patrol. At first you answered
9 about Cirino. Then you added Ed Brown. Then you
10 added Mr. Riley. Which of those was true?
11 A. There was two occasions.
12 MR. HUFTALEN: Objection. It's
13 argumentative. It's been asked and answered.
14 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead and answer
15 it.
16 A. There were two occasions that I saw them
17 patrolling.
18 Q. You said you saw him -- you said you saw
19 Cirino Gonzalez patrolling only once.
20 A. Right, with Ed Brown, and then there was
21 another occasion, Ed Brown, Danny Riley and Jason.
22 Q. Now you've added the fourth party.
23 THE COURT: Just hold it. Hold it. That's
24 not a question. Stop it. Stop it. Ask a question.
25 Q. You didn't mention Jason in your previous

129
1 answers, did you?
2 A. I don't recall now.
3 Q. In fact, you know that there's a lot more
4 time that would have faced you for the explosives than
5 what you're facing now, correct?
6 A. If I was charged with it, yes.
7 Q. You know how much, too, don't you?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 MR. WIBERG: Nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Wiberg. Mr.
11 Bownes? Recross.
13 BY MR. BOWNES:
14 Q. Just so I understand this, first, in terms of
15 your statements to the government in September, you
16 don't make any mention to Mr. Gonzalez patrolling with
17 a gun; is that true? Yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. With respect to your grand jury
20 testimony, you don't make any mention of Mr. Gonzalez
21 "patrolling with a gun", as you use the term, with Mr.
22 Ed Brown; is that true? Yes or no?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. In fact, it's here that you first say
25 that it was Mr. Gonzalez and I thought Mr. Riley that

130
1 were doing that. Now it's not?
2 A. There was three of them on one occasion.
3 Four of them on another occasion.
4 Q. All right, and has that changed -- do you
5 think that's changed from the original direct
6 testimony that you gave here today?
7 A. No. Because in the proffer they didn't ask
8 that and the grand jury they didn't ask that.
9 Q. Do you think it's changed from the questions
10 that I asked you on cross examination regarding those
11 discrete inferences? Do you think your testimony has
12 changed from the time that I was up here just a little
13 while ago asking you questions about that; do you
14 remember that?
15 A. Yes. No, I don't think it has changed.
16 Q. You don't think it has changed. All right.
17 I'm a little confused.
18 THE COURT: The jury will disregard that.
19 Q. You brought your personal weapons onto the
20 property, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was more than one weapon, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you would bring them out, carry them
25 around with you on the property, correct?

131
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. You would walk with them in your hand
3 with Ed Brown as you toured the property, correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You would walk with them with anybody else or
6 just with you?
7 A. No. It was just the firing range right by
8 his porch on the house.
9 Q. Okay, and you recall the series of questions
10 that Mr. Huftalen asked you as he first got up to what
11 I'll call redirect you -- what we call redirect
12 examination; do you recall those questions?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let me remind you. The question was, did you
15 ever buy any guns for the Browns, and the answer was,
16 no, correct?
18 Q. Are you aware of any guns that Mr. Gonzalez
19 bought for the Browns?
20 A. No.
21 Q. The question was, did you ever leave any guns
22 at the Brown residence; do you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the answer was, no, I didn't, correct?
132
1 Q. Are you aware of any evidence that Mr.
2 Gonzalez left any guns at the Brown residence?
3 A. I'm not aware of any, no.
4 Q. I think your testimony was that those were
5 the reasons that you wouldn't be charged with what
6 I'll call a gun charge, correct, because you didn't do
7 anything about the guns, right? You just carried them
8 out there and fired them there, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So that's not a gun charge for you, is it?
11 A. No.
12 MR. BOWNES: Okay. Thank you.
13 THE COURT: Government?
14 MR. HUFTALEN: No, your Honor. Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Scully?
16 MR. SCULLY: Yes, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Recross.
19 BY MR. SCULLY:
20 Q. Sir, you just testified that there was an
21 occasion when you saw Jason Gerhard and you used the
22 word patrolling on the property with Ed Brown, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Well, you didn't say that to the U.S.
25 marshals or to the government in your first proffer

133
1 session, right?
2 A. They didn't ask that, yes.
3 Q. Okay, but they asked you about Jason Gerhard,
4 right?
5 A. I don't recall what they asked about Jason.
6 Q. You didn't say it in the second proffer
7 session with the U.S. marshals or the U.S. government,
8 right?
9 A. They didn't ask me that, either.
10 Q. Okay. Then you went to the grand jury at
11 some point, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they asked you, did you ever see Jason
14 Gerhard at any time possessing or carrying or using
15 any firearms, right?
16 A. I don't recall that question, in particular,
17 but yes. If they asked it, yes.
18 MR. SCULLY: Can I approach?
20 MR. SCULLY: Page 18. Line 10.
21 Q. Just take a look at that. Read it to
22 yourself, and tell me when you're done and read the
23 answer that you gave to yourself.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Have you read the answer?

134
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Now, here you are under oath at the
3 grand jury, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were asked, did you ever see him at any
6 time -- right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- possessing guns, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Possessing, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right, and you said, yes, and you went on
13 to describe one time where he was target shooting,
14 right?
15 A. I don't recall that, no.
16 MR. SCULLY: May I approach?
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. Just take a look at page 18. Your answer
19 was -- there was a question on line 10. Your answer
20 on 13. Question on 14, and then your answer on lines
21 15 through 17. Just read it to yourself, and tell me
22 when you're done.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Okay. Your answer to that question, "Did you
25 see him at any time possessing a firearm?", was, "Yes.

135
1 Target shooting.", right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay, and that was under oath, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right, and that was after you had met
6 with your lawyer to prepare for this testimony, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you had talked to the government before
9 this testimony, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right, and you did not mention in that
12 testimony or at any other time that you saw him
13 patrolling around with a gun, right?
14 A. Nobody ever asked that particular --
15 Q. Well, you were asked, at any time did you see
16 him possessing a gun, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So that would be the perfect time to say what
19 times you saw him, right?
20 A. Under the conditions, I didn't recall that so
21 they asked about target shooting.
22 Q. That's right. At the time you didn't recall,
23 right?
24 A. What was that?
25 Q. At the time you didn't recall that you saw

136
1 him with a gun, right?
2 A. Well, I didn't think about it.
3 Q. And when Mr. Bownes asked you if you ever saw
4 Cirino Gonzalez with a gun, you said, yes, and then
5 you said, I think there was a time where you might
6 have seen Jason, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then after Mr. Bownes asked you
9 questions --
10 THE COURT: Slow down. Slow down.
11 Q. -- the government asked you questions, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Right, and then I didn't ask you questions,
14 right, and now Mr. Wiberg asked you questions, and for
15 the first time you say, yeah, I saw Jason Gerhard
16 patrolling with a gun, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. That's the first -- nowhere did
19 you ever put that in writing, right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And you didn't say that at any other time to
22 any government official in any questioning that they
23 gave of you, right?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 MR. SCULLY: No further questions.

137
1 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Wiberg?
2 MR. WIBERG: No, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Bownes?
4 MR. BOWNES: No, thank you, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Government?
6 MR. HUFTALEN: May I?
7 THE COURT: Well, re-redirect.
8 RE-REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. HUFTALEN:
10 Q. Mr. Wolffe, I'm going to hand you a copy of
11 your grand jury testimony. Don't read it out loud. I
12 just want you to read a question and answer that Mr.
13 Scully was just asking you about.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Have you read that to yourself?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The question that he asked you about and the
18 answer you gave was an example of Mr. Gerhard shooting
19 at the Browns, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What were the circumstances surrounding that
22 example? What did you see?
23 A. What I just read?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. That was --
138
1 MR. SCULLY: Objection. I think the question
2 was what did he see on the property.
3 Q. What did you see on the property when --
4 THE COURT: That's all right. That was not
5 an objection yet. You go ahead and answer it.
6 A. That Jason had a firearm and he was with --
7 target shooting.
8 Q. Shooting what?
9 A. The tannerite.
10 Q. Is that the same tannerite you talked about
11 earlier?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The same day they were shooting it --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Excuse me. Let me finish. Shooting it with
16 different caliber rounds to see which would cause it
17 to explode?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. WIBERG: Objection, your Honor. Leading.
20 Leading again and again.
21 THE COURT: Raise your objection before he
22 answers. I would be happy to rule on them. Go ahead.
23 MR. HUFTALEN: No other questions. Thank
24 you.
25 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Scully?

139
1 MR. SCULLY: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Re-recross examination.
3 RE-RECROSS EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. SCULLY:
5 Q. Today when you came in under oath and you
6 were questioned about testing -- about people that
7 were firing at the tannerite, you didn't say that
8 Jason Gerhard was involved, right?
9 THE COURT: All right. Let me see counsel.
10 (SIDEBAR)
11 THE COURT: Whether he said it or he didn't
12 say it is for the jury. Whether he said it before or
13 he didn't say it before, they know what he said. They
14 know what he didn't say. I'm happy to let you
15 continue, but every time one of you fellows go up
16 there, you open up another door, and we go around
17 another barn. It's entirely up to you.
18 MR. SCULLY: I think this is the last round.
19 MR. HUFTALEN: No. There are a lot more.
20 THE COURT: That's perfectly fine. I am
21 going to do it question by question. I am not
22 inhibiting anybody in any way. You go ahead and ask
23 your questions.
24 MR. SCULLY: I know. I appreciate that.
140
1 THE COURT: Mr. Scully, you are the
2 questioner. Reask your question.
3 MR. SCULLY: Judge, thank you. No further
4 questions.
5 THE COURT: And Mr. Wiberg?
6 MR. WIBERG: No, your Honor. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Bownes?
8 MR. BOWNES: I'll sit down, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: All right. That means you don't
10 have any questions. You're done, too?
11 MR. HUFTALEN: Yes, I am.
12 THE COURT: All right. Very good. Ladies
13 and gentlemen, it's almost 3:00 o'clock. Is anyone
14 violently opposed to going until -- I'm talking to the
15 jury, for the record -- until 3:00 to try to get as
16 much trial testimony in as possible? Try to arrange
17 your schedules when I let you go today. It's only an
18 extra half hour, but I think it's important that we
19 work as hard as we can.
20 All right. I'm going to excuse you for the
21 day. Remember that you're not to discuss the case
22 with anyone, read anything about the case, form any
23 opinions or do any research whatsoever with regard to
24 this matter during this recess or any other recess,
25 and with that, have a pleasant trip home. The jury is

141
1 excused, and I'll see counsel at 3:30, please.
2 (RECESS)
3 (Chambers conference with counsel)
4 THE COURT: All right. We're all here.
5 We've got counsel in chambers.
6 Now, we're going to go till 3:00 every day
7 just so you're all -- I think, depending on what I
8 hear today. How many more witnesses for the
9 government?
10 MR. KINSELLA: Judge, I think we've decided,
11 once again, to call Mr. Dorothy. I just spoke with
12 him, and I have to tell you that I feel very confident
13 that we can make sure that his testimony is limited to
14 Riley said that he did certain things and not refer to
15 other individuals at all. I feel very confident about
16 that.
17 THE COURT: Very good.
18 MR. WIBERG: Judge, I just called off a
19 witness for that.
20 THE COURT: You have to get on the phone.
21 All right. Mr. Dorothy.
22 MR. KINSELLA: After that Ken Nunes.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. KINSELLA: We were thinking about calling
25 someone from the jail just to establish that Mr.

142
1 Dorothy was there when he said he was, but we probably
2 won't have that person testify. I think we'll rest
3 after Ken Nunes.
4 THE COURT: Okay, and then who is first for
5 the defendants?
6 MR. NORKUNAS: Me. We are, Judge. We have
7 two.
8 THE COURT: You are going to have them ready,
9 right?
10 MR. NORKUNAS: I told them to be here at 8:00
11 tomorrow.
12 THE COURT: Okay, and who do you have? Is it
13 a secret?
14 MR. NORKUNAS: No. Actually, we're calling
15 two ATF guys, Mr. Leo and Mr. Futrell.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Futrell.
17 MR. NORKUNAS: And I believe that's all.
18 THE COURT: That's it for you?
19 MR. NORKUNAS: That's it.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Who is after you? Who is
21 next? Mr. Wiberg. What do you have at this point for
22 witnesses? I don't want any secrets. All you have to
23 do is tell me, I don't want to tell you.
24 MR. WIBERG: No. That's okay. It's the
25 Marshal and a couple other agents.

143
1 THE COURT: The U.S. Marshal?
2 MR. WIBERG: Yeah, and a couple other agents.
3 THE COURT: How long is that all going to
4 take?
5 MR. WIBERG: I can't say until I hear what
6 these guys get out of their guys.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Tops?
8 MR. WIBERG: Three hours, and maybe one other
9 beyond that. Well, actually now I've got to get the
10 other witness back so that's -- but that would be --
11 that would only be like a half an hour.
12 THE COURT: So five hours?
13 MR. WIBERG: Yeah.
14 THE COURT: All right, and Mr. Bownes, you're
15 bringing up the rear here.
16 MR. BOWNES: I'm bringing up the rear.
17 THE COURT: And?
18 MR. BOWNES: I've got Mr. Melton, who I think
19 is here in New Hampshire. I'm not sure.
20 THE COURT: Who is he?
21 MR. BOWNES: He's the -- I referred to him
22 today. He's the guy who did the videotaping and went
23 to the June, July concerts. He did the videotaping
24 and had conversations with all those people. He's the
25 fellow from Austin, Texas.

144
1 THE COURT: He videoed the jamboree?
2 MR. BOWNES: Yeah, he videoed the jamboree.
3 THE COURT: Are we going to be watching a
4 three hour video of the jamboree?
5 MR. BOWNES: No. We're going to be watching
6 maybe a five minute video of the jamboree -- some
7 other portions of the video that he did. I need to
8 coordinate --
9 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. Off the
10 record.
11 (Off the Record)
12 THE COURT: Go ahead.
13 MR. BOWNES: Here is the status as far as I'm
14 aware of -- the witnesses that I have.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Bownes, your witness
16 is Mr. Melton, who is going to do an edited video?
17 MR. BOWNES: An edited video and talk about
18 some of the events that occurred June 23, 2007.
19 THE COURT: Okay, and what else?
20 MR. BOWNES: Nebeil Al-Oboudi, I believe is
21 how it's pronounced. He's from Houston. He is going
22 to testify about his contact with Mr. Gonzalez after
23 he left the Brown residence in the July, August time
24 frame down in Texas.
25 THE COURT: Okay.

145
1 MR. BOWNES: Mr. Hearington is here. I've
2 talked to both the prior witness and Mr. Hearington.
3 Mr. Hearington is going to talk about his contact with
4 Mr. Gonzalez just prior to coming up to New Hampshire,
5 and he traveled with Cirino part of the way.
6 I'm not sure of the status of Corinna Cooper,
7 but I believe, according to the Marshal, she was
8 served. She lives in Los Angeles. I assume she's
9 here now. I don't know.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. BOWNES: Lisa Mullinex, who was the girl
12 in the video on the porch. She was -- they tried to
13 serve her at her last address, and her last address
14 was no good. I gave the marshals another address on
15 Friday, and I have to check with respect to her
16 availability.
17 Mr. Jose Gonzalez and Mr. Romero Gonzalez
18 were served. They weren't able to get a flight until
19 Wednesday so they won't be here until Thursday.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Anyone else?
21 MR. BOWNES: Other than we're reserving the
22 defendant's choices with respect to this matter.
23 James Johnson and Lauren Canario and Keith Champagne
24 have been served. They can get to the Court whenever,
25 as I understand it, we give them a call and tell them

146
1 to come so that's it.
2 THE COURT: Has everyone talked about whether
3 anyone has any objection to any witnesses?
4 MR. KINSELLA: We were just beginning to do
5 that.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel, work on that. I
7 don't want to hear about it beforehand.
8 MR. BOWNES: Okay.
9 MR. SCULLY: Judge, I've spoken to Terry
10 Melton, and he did bring up whether or not he might
11 want a lawyer to represent him.
12 THE COURT: Whether he might take the Fifth?
13 MR. SCULLY: Whether he might take the Fifth.
14 THE COURT: If that's the case, I want to
15 hear about it in advance.
16 MR. SCULLY: So I think there's at least a
17 maybe up there on that. I don't know what we need to
18 do to be ready for that.
19 MR. BOWNES: He's waffled back and forth.
20 THE COURT: That may be on Thursday or
21 Wednesday?
22 MR. BOWNES: I think Mr. Melton is here so if
23 we had a lawyer, we could go forward with him on
24 Wednesday.
25 THE COURT: What's his first name?

147
1 MR. BOWNES: Terry.
2 THE COURT: All right. I want to know about
3 it in advance.
4 MR. KINSELLA: No Elaine Brown?
5 MR. BOWNES: Oh, I'm sorry. Elaine Brown is
6 on the witness list. I think she's here. The
7 marshals asked me about when she would be coming on.
8 I said Wednesday or Thursday.
9 There's obviously a Fifth Amendment issue
10 with that, and I don't think that she's spoken to a
11 lawyer. She declined to have a lawyer back in the
12 fall. That's when we interviewed her. She is not --
13 I don't know what her position is as to whether she
14 wants a lawyer.
15 THE COURT: Is she here?
16 MR. KINSELLA: I thought that she was here.
17 I don't know for sure.
18 THE COURT: I want to see her tomorrow after
19 the jury is out -- see if she is going to claim the
20 Fifth.
21 MR. BOWNES: Maybe I could get Mr. Melton
22 here tomorrow afternoon, also.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know if we're
24 going to go through the week or not. If we're going
25 to, Friday is open. You may be arguing Friday. I

148
1 don't know. If not -- if we go through half of Friday
2 or whatever, we'll argue Monday. We're not going to
3 start --
4 MR. BOWNES: I'm honestly crossing my
5 fingers, and I know I'm being optimistic, but I'm
6 crossing my fingers for getting this case in from
7 everybody's perspective on Thursday and arguing on
8 Friday.
9 THE COURT: Good. Good. Yes?
10 MR. HUFTALEN: Two of your witnesses, David,
11 Jose and Romero Gonzalez, we had talked previously,
12 and you had said there might be Fifth Amendment issues
13 with each of them, as well.
14 MR. BOWNES: I don't think Romero has a Fifth
15 Amendment issue, and I don't think that --
16 THE COURT: It isn't a question whether you
17 think he has a Fifth Amendment issue.
18 MR. BOWNES: I don't think he's going to
19 assert a Fifth Amendment issue.
20 THE COURT: I want all counsel to talk to
21 their witnesses. If there's any issue, I want them
22 available the day before, after the jury is excused,
23 so I can discuss that with them, make them aware of
24 the issues and appoint counsel if I think it's
25 appropriate. I don't want them getting up in front of

149
1 the jury and taking the Fifth.
2 MR. BOWNES: I didn't mean to tell you that I
3 was making decisions for these witnesses, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: I understand.
5 MR. BOWNES: All right.
6 THE COURT: All right. Anything else?
7 MR. BOWNES: Yes. Could you do something
8 about the snow?
9 THE COURT: I'll issue an order.
10 MR. HUFTALEN: We have some minor evidentiary
11 stipulations that at some point tomorrow before we
12 rest we're going to need to read into the record.
13 THE COURT: Have you reached an agreement?
14 MR. HUFTALEN: We have all reached an
15 agreement.
16 THE COURT: That's fine. You can do it in
17 front of the jury. I don't remember -- is one of the
18 exhibits here the arrest warrants?
19 MR. KINSELLA: Yes. The first two.
20 MR. SCULLY: 1.
21 MR. KINSELLA: 1 and 1-A.
22 MR. BOWNES: Exhibit 1 and 1-A.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else, counsel?
24 MR. SCULLY: No, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Thank you very much.

150
1 (Conclusion of bench conference)
4 C E R T I F I C A T E
8 I, Susan M. Bateman, do hereby certify
9 that the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate
10 transcription of the within proceedings, to the best
11 of my knowledge, skill, ability and belief.
12
13
14
15 Submitted: 12-30-08 /s/ Susan M. Bateman

SUSAN M. BATEMAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL

For the Government: Arnold H. Huftalen, AUSA

For Mr. Riley: Sven D. Wiberg, Esq.

For Mr. Gerhard: Stanley W. Norkunas, Esq.

Liam D. Scully, Esq.

For Mr. Gonzalez: David H. Bownes, Esq.

Court Reporter: Susan M. Bateman, CSR, RPR, CRR

WITNESS: Direct Cross Redirect Recross

By Mr. Huftalen 03 112, 137

By Mr. Scully 26 132, 139

By Mr. Wiberg 27 126

By Mr. Bownes 73 129

2 THE COURT: Please swear the witness.

4 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

5 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell

6 your last name for the record.

7 MR. WOLFFE: Robert Wolffe, W-O-L-F-F-E.

8 THE COURT: You may proceed.

9 MR. HUFTALEN: Thank you, Judge.

10 THE COURT: Mr. Huftalen.

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Wolffe.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you to please keep your

16 voice up and speak into the microphone in front of you

17 so that everyone can hear you. Mr. Wolffe, what's

18 your home address?

19 A. 22 Highland Avenue, Randolph, Vermont.

20 Q. Do you know an individual named Jason

22 A. Yes, I do. An acquaintance.

23 Q. Has Jason Gerhard ever lived at 22 Highland

24 Avenue, Randolph, Vermont?

25 A. No, he hasn't. No.

1 Q. Mr. Wolffe, do you know Edward and Elaine

4 Q. Would you characterize yourself as a

5 supporter of Ed and Elaine Brown?

7 Q. When did you first meet them?

9 Q. When did you last see them?

11 Q. Between January '07 and August of '07

12 approximately how many times did you see the Browns?

13 A. I would say 25 to 30 times.

14 Q. And where was it that you saw them?

15 A. At their home on Center of Town Road.

16 Q. In Plainfield, New Hampshire?

18 Q. On those occasions when you went to the

19 Browns, were you armed with a firearm?

20 A. Yes, I usually carried a 9 millimeter

22 Q. Were you ever stopped by law enforcement

23 either entering or leaving the Brown property?

25 Q. Did you ever stay, and by that I mean sleep

1 over on the Brown property?

2 A. One night I had my camper. My wife and I

3 were heading out for a long weekend and stopped there

4 on our way out.

5 Q. Other than that, were your trips day trips?

7 Q. About how far a drive is it from your home in

8 Randolph, Vermont to Plainfield, New Hampshire?

9 A. Just under 40 miles.

10 Q. Did you know when you saw the Browns between

11 January and August of '07 that they had been convicted

12 of federal felony offenses?

14 Q. When you went to the Browns, did you ever