Transcript (Day C061) 3 February

ROYALCOMMISSIONINTOINSTITUTIONAL
RESPONSESTOCHILDSEXUALABUSE
PublicHearingCaseStudy22
(DayC0061)
Court3.3,CountyCourtofVictoria
250WilliamStreet,Melbourne
OnTuesday,3February2015at10.00am
Before
ThePresidingMember:JusticeJenniferAnnCoate
Commissioners:MrRobertFitzgeraldAM
MrAndrewMurray
CounselAssisting:MsMariaGerace
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C6068
Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation
1 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Goodmorning,MsGerace.
2
3 MSGERACE: Goodmorning,YourHonour. Couldwestart
4 thismorningbycallingwitnessZephaniahWaks,please.
5
6 <ZEPHANIAHWAKS,affirmed: [10.02am]
7
8 <EXAMINATIONBYMSGERACE:
9
10 MSGERACE: Goodmorning. MrWaks,yourdateofbirthis
11 22June1949andyouraddressisknowntotheRoyal
12 Commission. YoupreparedastatementfortheRoyal
13 Commissiondated27January2015andIunderstandthereare
14 somechangesyouwanttomaketothatstatement;isthat
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Thankyoutoyourcounselwhohasprovidedthattome.
19 Soinparagraph7whereyousay"StKildaYeshivah
20 College",youwanttosay"StKildaEast"?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. Paragraph23,whereyoureferto"Kramer"inthefirst
24 sentence,youwishforKramertobereferredtoas"Rabbi
25 Kramer"?
26 A. Yes. There'sreasonsforbothofthose. It'snot
27 justgratuitous.
28
29 Q. That'sokay. Whenwegettothatpartofyour
30 statementwewillgothroughit. Thenparagraph33you
31 wanttodeletetheword"admitting"inparagraph33;is
32 thatright?
33 A. Yes,ofcourse. It'snotdeleted. It'schangingit
34 totherewasanotherwordthere. Allright. Imadea
35 statement"thathewas". Okay,yes,sorry.
36
37 Q. Theninparagraph47
38
39 MRBARKER: Sorry,whatisthechangeto33?
40
41 MSGERACE: Justdeletingtheword"admitting",soit
42 reads"Mannymadeapublicstatementthathewassexually
43 abused"
44 A. Yes. "Admitting"impliesthathedidsomethingwrong.
45
46 Q. Thenparagraph47there'sjustanincorrectspelling
47 oftheword"chiyuvum"?
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 A. Yes,yes,"I"insteadofa"U".
2
3 Q. Andtheninparagraph64thewords"thatmyfamily
4 faced"shouldbe"my"ratherthan"may"?
5 A. Yes.
6
7 Q. Saveforthoseamendments,isthecontentofthis
8 statementtrueandcorrecttothebestofyourknowledge
9 andbelief?
10 A. 100percent,yes.
11
12 Q. BeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,MrWaks,youare
13 thefatherofMannyWaks,whoweheardfromyesterdayand
14 alsothefatheroftwootherboyswhowereabusedwhilst
15 theywerestudentsatYeshivahCollege?
16 A. Yes,correct.
17
18 Q. Andyouarethefatherofhowmanychildren?
19 A. Seventeen.
20
21 Q. AndyouhavebeenpartoftheChabadLubavitch
22 movementfromthetimeofyouryouth;isthatright?
23 A. Icametoitlater,butforthelast45yearsorso.
24
25 Q. AndpartoftheYeshivahcommunityfromthetimeyou
26 movedtoAustralia;isthatright?
27 A. Evenoverseas,thewholetimesincethenfrombefore
28 IleftAustralia.
29
30 Q. Andwasacentralpartofthatmovementyour
31 involvementwiththeYeshivahCentreinMelbourne?
32 A. Yes,ofcourse. Welivedrightopposite. Webought
33 theplacethereespeciallyforthat. Thekidswentto
34 schoolwithoutcrossingtheroad. Allthefacilitieswere
35 there,thesynagogue,theschool,boysandgirls,mikveh.
36 Everythingwasthere.
37
38 Q. Didallofyourchildrenattendschoolatthe
39 Yeshivah?
40 A. Yes. CanIaddsomethingtothatbecauseit's
41 somethingthatpeopledon'tcompletelyunderstand. Asa
42 memberoftheChabadmovementyoureallyhadtosendyour
43 childrenjusttothatschool. InMelbourne,eventhough
44 therewasatleastoneotherschoolthatwouldhavebeen
45 suitableonareligiouslevel,sociallyitistotally
46 unacceptabletodoit. Soanysuggestionthatyoushould
47 havetakenyourkidsoutoftheschoolordonesomething
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 else,itwouldhavemeantleavingAustralia,notjust
2 Melbourne. There'snowhereelseyoucouldsendyourkids
3 toschool. Itwasn'tanoption.
4
5 Q. Wasanaspectofthefaith,theultraOrthodoxfaith
6 withinChabad,thatyourchildrenshouldbeeducatedina
7 particularwayreligiously?
8 A. Yes,notevenjustreligiously,butparticularly
9 withintheChabadframework,veryparticular.
10
11 Q. Afocusinthewayinwhichreligiousstudieswere
12 undertaken?
13 A. Correct.
14
15 Q. Andafocusonthewayofpracticeofdaytodayfaith
16 ofstudents?
17 A. Exactly. Aparticularemphasis. Exactly.
18
19 Q. Sowasitexpected,isthatyourevidence,that
20 parentswhohadchildrenthattheywantedtorearwithin
21 theultraOrthodoxortheChabadcommunityeducatedthemat
22 aChabadinstitution?
23 A. Only,andRabbiGronerwasveryballisticaboutpeople
24 whotookkidsout. That'sabsolutelyIknowone
25 particularcase,Ihadonekidthatlearntsomewhereelse
26 butonlybecausehewasexactlyinanagegroupwherehe
27 couldn'tyetgototheoldergroup,YeshivahGedolaiswhat
28 it'scalled,andhedidn'thaveaclassathisagegroup
29 learningonlyreligiousstudiesintheschool. Sothere
30 wasnooption. Theycouldn'tdoanythingelse. Sohewas,
31 unwillinglyorwhatever,butallowedtogosomewhereelse
32 withoutanymajorproblembeingraised. Butnobodyelse
33 coulddoit. OneotherpersonthatIknowdiditbecause
34 ofaveryinterestingreasonwhy,buthesentthekidsto
35 Adass,theotherultraOrthodoxschoolinMelbourne,andhe
36 wasessentiallyoutoftheChabadcommunityeventhoughhe
37 wasstillChabadandsomeofhiskidswenttolearnin
38 Chabadinstitutionsoverseasafterwards,butwithinChabad
39 Melbourneitwasjustdespised.
40
41 Q. Whatwouldyousaytothesuggestionthenthatit
42 wouldappearthattobepartofthecommunitytherewere
43 expectationsonmembersaboutthewaytheydidcertain
44 thingsandoneofthemiseducatingtheirchildrenwithina
45 Chabadschool?
46 A. There'sexpectationsonalmosteverything. That's
47 fairenough. It'snotlookedatasaparticularlyonerous
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1 thingwhenyouarepartofthatgroup.
2
3 Q. Justifyoucouldhelpusunderstandalittlebit
4 aboutwhatitmeanttobeChabad. Wherewasthefocus
5 withinChabadon,say,religiousstudiesoradherenceto
6 OrthodoxpreceptsorthewayinwhichChabadapplied
7 Orthodoxprecepts? Couldyouhelpusunderstandwhatthat
8 meantformembersofthecommunityonadaytodaybasis,
9 forinstance?
10 A. Okay. Again,togetitclear,theschoolandthe
11 centreisreallybrokenupintoprobablythreegroups.
12 TherearepeoplethatarehardcoreChabad,withlongbeards
13 andeverythinglikethat. Thentherearepeoplethatare
14 stronglyreligiousandthentheyattendthesynagogueand
15 everythinglikethat,buttheyarenotChabad,buttheydo
16 sendtheirkidsthere. Thentherearepeoplealso,groups
17 fromwithinMelbourne,theyreallyaren'taffiliatedwith
18 Chabadatallandsomeofthemaren'tevenreligiousand
19 theyalsosendtheirkidstothatschool. Sothereare
20 threegroupslikethat. Sowithinthegroupthatare
21 actuallyhardcoreChabad,thereisaparticularapproachto
22 Judaismwhichisbasedverymuchonaverystrict
23 interpretationandfulfillingthecommandmentsandJewish
24 lawandeverythinglikethat,withaparticulartwistof
25 verymuchintooutreach. It'savery,youknow,niceidea
26 andpeopletakeitveryseriously. Havinganopenhouse,
27 dealingwithpeoplethatarenotreligiousandtreating
28 themverynicely,notlookingdownonthem,assomeother
29 groupsdo.
30
31 There'sstillanelementofcomplacencyandfeeling
32 youareabithigher,butingeneraltherewasdefinitelya
33 goodsidetoitofgoingoutandbringingotherpeople
34 closetoJudaism. ThelateLubavitchRebbewasvery
35 strong,thataftertheHolocaustyoureallyhadtodo
36 somethingwiththelittlebitthatwaslefttokeepJewsto
37 beJewish,otherwisethewholethingwoulddieout. Sohe
38 wasverymuchintothat,thatevenpeopleattheirown
39 expenseofdoingwhattheywoulddoandotherpeople
40 learningalotanddelvingintotheJewishlawandstudy
41 it,hewouldbeplacingtheemphasisongoingoutin
42 outreach,goingandlivinginplaceswheretherewereno
43 otherJews,veryfew,noamenities. Ihaveakidnowin
44 Americalivingonacampus. Therearenoamenitiesinthe
45 townandthereareJewishstudentsthere. Thatiswhyhe
46 hasgonethere. Butthattypeofthing.
47
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Whenyousaidearlier,yousaidthe"late
2 Chabad/Yeshivah",wereyoureferringtothelateLubavitch
3 Rebbeandhisfocusofoutreach?
4 A. Yes,hewasverystrongonthat,morethananyother
5 personandmorethananyotherLubavitchRebbe. Buthe
6 reallyputtheemphasisonthat,onoutreach.
7
8 Q. Andwasyourunderstandingofhismissiontocreate
9 theoutreachfocustoprovideandstrengthentheJewish
10 movementaftertheHolocaust?
11 A. Yes.
12
13 Q. Andwhenyoudescribeoutreach,doyoumeanboth
14 charityaswellasbringingpeopleclosertoJudaismordo
15 youmeanbringingpeopleclosertoJudaism?
16 A. Whateverisrequiredtobringpeoplecloserto
17 Judaism. OthergroupsdidplaceIwouldsayastronger
18 emphasisoncharityandvisitingthesickandeverything
19 likethat. Hereeverythingwasgearedtowardsthat,ina
20 goodway. I'mnotevensayingitinanegativewayatall.
21 Thepeoplethatdiditatleast,theleadersI'mabitmore
22 scepticalaboutnow,butthepractitionersweredoingitin
23 atheyfelttheyhadtodoitanditwastherightthing
24 andtheyunderstood.
25
26 Q. SothefocuswasonstrengtheningtheJewish
27 community?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. BringingpeopleclosertotheJewishcommunity?
31 A. Jewsthathadlosttheirwayorhadneverbeen
32 educated,peoplewhohadcomefromRussiathathadnever
33 hadachancetodoanything,peopleborninAustralialike
34 myself. Icametoitatage20,let'ssay,exactlyfrom
35 thattypeofthing,someonewhohadgoneout. Aprofessor
36 ofmathematicsinSydney,Iwenttoatalkofhisand
37 that'showIbecameinvolved. Ihadbeentotallysecular
38 untilthen.
39
40 Q. IntermsofbringingthemclosertoJudaism,wasthe
41 focusofthemovementtobringthemclosertoOrthodox
42 JudaismaspractisedwithinChabad?
43 A. Correct.
44
45 Q. Earlierinyourevidenceyoudescribed,perhaps
46 loosely,yourowndescriptionofhowpeoplewithinChabad
47 wereIthinkyouusedtheword"hardcore",thosemore
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 moderateormiddleoftheline,andthosewhoperhapswere,
2 whatevertheirmanifestationoffaithwas,alittleless
3 thanmiddleoftheline. Whenyouhadyourchildrenatthe
4 YeshivahCentre,sogoingbackwhentheywereyoungerand
5 wereatschool,wherewouldyouhaveclassifiedyourself
6 withinthatcategory?
7 A. Rightuntilvery,veryrecentlyIwashardcoreChabad,
8 totallyintoeverything. WhenIwasintheprivatehearing
9 Istillhadalongbeard. Ihavespecificallytakenitoff
10 nowandthatmakesastatement. I'mnothardcoreChabadat
11 allnow.
12
13 Q. Whendidthatshift,thatchangefromhardcoreChabad?
14 A. Formyself?
15
16 Q. Foryourself?
17 A. Overtheselastfouryears,onceIrealisedthat
18 peopleweren'tgoingtochange,anditwasn'tjustthe
19 leaders,thecommunitiesthemselvesweren'tgoingto
20 change,Ijustreallywasn'tinterested. SoI'mstilla
21 practisingOrthodoxJew,butnotinthatstrainanymore.
22
23 Q. Whenyousaythelastfouryears,areyoutalking
24 abouttheeventsthatyoudescribeinyourstatement?
25 A. Correct.
26
27 Q. FromthetimeofMannyWaksdisclosinghisabuse?
28 A. Correct.
29
30 Q. JustbeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,couldyou
31 helpustounderstandwhatitmeant,thedaytoday
32 practiceforyouwithinChabad,withinthehardcorearea,
33 whatwasthefocusofeachdayorwasthereaparticular
34 focusinthewaythefaithwasexercised? Couldyouhelp
35 ustounderstandwhattheinvolvementintheYeshivah
36 communitymeant?
37 A. Theprayerinthemorningisanhour,let'ssay,let's
38 sayforhardcorepeople. Prayerisstressed. Let'ssay
39 it'sanhourinthemorning. LaterinthedayIworked
40 fromhome,soIwouldnormallygo,Iwouldhaveanotherone
41 ortwohoursofJewishlearningduringthedayandit's
42 rightacrosstheroad,sothat'sanothertwohours. Inthe
43 afternoonservice,anotherthreequartersofanhour.
44 Ioftenusedtolearnbetweentheafternoonandtheevening
45 serviceandthenthenightservice. Intheafternoon
46 there'sanotherhourandahalf,twohours. Soit'savery
47 significantpartoftheday. Imighthavedoneabitmore
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1 thanotherpeoplebecauseIhadtheluxuryofworkingfrom
2 home,butmanypeoplewouldhavehadaverysimilarthing.
3 ThenyouhavethefocusoninvitingpeoplefortheSabbath.
4 Wehadanopenhome. Itwaswellknowninthecommunity.
5 Mywifewasinvolvedinevenatthetimewhenshewas
6 bringingupallthekidsshewasheavilyinvolvedinthe
7 women'sorganisation. Shewasthepresidentatvarious
8 times. Sheusedtoorganisemanyofthefunctions. She's
9 averygoodorganiserandverycharismatic. Thatwasour
10 wholelife. Welivedthere. Allourfriendswerefrom
11 there. SometimesIusedtobeasked,"Doyouhaveany
12 peopleoutsidethecommunity? Doyouhaveanygentile
13 friends?" Isaid,"Ireallydon'thavetimeforit."
14 Idon'thaveaproblem,butthere'snotime.
15
16 Q. WoulditbefairthentodescribetheYeshivahCentre
17 andthevariousactivitiesundertakenintheYeshivah
18 Centretohavebeentheepicentreformanyoftheir
19 daytodaylifewiththeChabadcommunity?
20 A. 100percent. ThepeoplethatIwouldcallhardcore,
21 thatwouldbetheirepicentre. Exactly. Theirkidsare
22 allgoingtoschoolthere. Inmanycasesbothparentsare
23 teachingthere. Alltheiractivitiesarethere;exactly.
24
25 Q. Justbecauseyouhaveraisedacoupleoftermsthat
26 perhapsoutsideofthecommunitymaynotbewidelyknown,
27 youtalkedaboutShabbat?
28 A. Yes.
29
30 Q. Couldyoutellusalittlebitaboutwhat
31 A. TheSabbathisfromFridaynightuntilSaturdaynight.
32 Youdon'tdriveinyourcar. Youdon'ttravel. Youdon't
33 useanyelectricalappliances. It'sjustforprayer,
34 learningandbeingwiththefamilyandeatingplenty.
35 That'swhatit'sfor,andit'sthetimewhenyouhave
36 guests. Sowealwayshadwehaveatablethatseats
37 about20people,whichevenatthetimewhenwehadmany
38 lesschildrenthat'swhenwegotitbecausewewouldoften
39 haveatablewith20,25peopleatthetableonaFriday
40 night. Peoplethathaveneverhadachancenotjust
41 friendsatall;therewouldalwaysbepeoplewhohad
42 nothingtodowithJudaismintheirpast. Sothatwouldbe
43 thefocusoftheSabbath.
44
45 Q. Intermsofthedinner,isthatsomethingthat's
46 referredtoastheShabbatdinner?
47 A. Yes.
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1
2 Q. AndisthatthecommunalaspectoftheShabbatdinner,
3 invitingguestsandIassumebeinginvitedinturntoother
4 people'shomes
5 A. Wewereneverinvitedbecauseofthenumberofkids.
6 Untilalmosteverybodylefthome,wewereneverinvited,
7 ever,anditwasn'tbecauseweweren'tfriendly.
8
9 Q. Youjustcouldn'tbeaccommodated,isthatright?
10 A. Yes,itwasverydifficult.
11
12 Q. Atleastthenfromyourperspectiveinvitingpeople
13 over
14 A. Yes,it'sfunnyyouaskthat. Itwasahighlight,the
15 firstinvitationwegot,youknow,wasonlyafewyearsago
16 whenweonlyhad,let'ssay,twokidswithus.
17
18 Q. Youwerealittlebiteasiertofitinthen?
19 A. Mmmhmm.
20
21 Q. Butthataspectofcommunityaspractisedbyinviting
22 peopletoShabbatdinner,isthatanimportantaspectof
23 beingwithintheChabadcommunity,thesenseofconnection
24 withothers?
25 A. Yes.
26
27 Q. Andthesharingofthatreligioustimewitheach
28 other?
29 A. That'sright,becauseItoldyouinChabadit's
30 outreach,sothat'stheperfecttimetodoit. Coming
31 along. Seeingthecandles. Everybodyhastimetosit
32 togetherandtalk. Soitisaveryauspicioustimetobe
33 abletodooutreachinaverynaturalway. That'swhy
34 IparticularlyFridaynightisaparticulartime. Wedid
35 itperhapsalittlemorethanothers,butmany,manypeople
36 doit. It'saverywidespreadthing.
37
38 Q. Allright,MrWaks,Iwilltakeyoutoyourstatement.
39 BeforeIdothat,YourHonour,couldItenderthestatement
40 ofZephaniahWaks,27January2015.
41
42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Exhibit225.
43
44 EXHIBIT#225STATEMENTOFZEPHANIAHWAKS
45
46 MSGERACE: MrWaks,couldIaskyoutoread,please,part
47 ofyourstatementfirstlystartingfromparagraph3andup
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 toandincludingparagraph10,stoppingjustbeforethe
2 disclosureofabusebyKramer,please?
3 A. MyfullnameisZephaniahWaks. Mydateofbirthis
4 22June1949. IammarriedtoHayaWaks. Wemetatthe
5 headquartersoftheChabadLubavitch(Chabad)movementin
6 CrownHeightsinBrooklyn,NewYork,UnitedStatesof
7 America. WemarriedinIsraelin1974. Ourfamilythen
8 movedtoSydneyin1984andthentoMelbournein1985.
9 UponmovingtoVictoriamyfamilyandIlivedinStKilda
10 EastdirectlyacrosstheroadfromtheYeshivahCentre
11 Melbourne. Ourfamilyhomeiscurrentlyonthemarketfor
12 sale.
13
14 HayaandIhave17children,comprisedofsix
15 daughtersand11sons. AllofmysonsattendedYeshivah
16 CollegeinStKildaEast,Melbourne. YeshivahCollegeisa
17 JewishdayschoolforboysrunbytheYeshivahCentre.
18 YeshivahCollegeandtheYeshivahCentresharethesame
19 grounds.
20
21 Threeofmysonsweresexuallyabusedbymembersof
22 theYeshivahCollegeandCentrecommunity. Myeldestson
23 MannywasabusedbyDavidCyprysand[AVP]. Twootherof
24 mysonswereabusedbyDavidKramer,orRabbiDavid
25 Kramer
26
27 Q. MrWaks,couldIaskyoutojustslowdown,forpeople
28 followingandalsothoserecording?
29 A. Sorry,sorry. Thebusinessabouttherabbi,youare
30 goingtoaskmeaboutthatlater,areyou?
31
32 Q. Iam,yes?
33 A. Ifirstbecameawareofallegationsofsexualabuse
34 againstCyprysinlate1991orearly1992,whenDetective
35 DonahuefromtheVictoriaPolicechildexploitationsquad
36 rangme. HetoldmethatManny'snamehadcomeupin
37 relationtoaninvestigationintoCyprysandheaskedmeto
38 speakwithMannywithaviewtofindingoutifheknew
39 anythingaboutCyprysandtoletMannyknowthatthepolice
40 wereinterestedinspeakingwithhim. Ididspeakwith
41 Manny,whosaidhewasnotinterestedinspeakingtothe
42 police. IassumedthatMannywasawitnessinrelationto
43 anassaultonanotherboy. ItoldDetectiveDonaghuethat
44 Mannydidnotwanttospeakwithhimandleftitatthat.
45
46 NotlongafterwardsIbecameawarethatCypryshad
47 beenchargedwithindecentlyassaultingaboywhohadbeen
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1 atschoolwithManny. Irecallthatthebarristerwho
2 representedCyprys,RobertSeifman,wasacongregantatthe
3 YeshivahSynagogue. ThechargeandthefactthatCyprys
4 receivedagoodbehaviourbondwaswidelyknownandtalked
5 aboutintheYeshivahcommunity.
6
7 Q. Thankyou. MrWaks,Idon'tknowwhetheryouhavehad
8 theopportunitytoseethepseudonymlist,buttheperson
9 yourefertointhisparagraph10,theboywhoyouhad
10 heardabouthadbeenassaultedbyCyprys,wasthatthe
11 witnessreferredtointheseproceedingsas[AVR]? Doyou
12 haveacopyofthepseudonymlistinfrontofyou?
13 A. Yes,butIdon'tevenknowwho[AVR]is.
14
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. ItringsI'mprettysurethatthat'sthename,yes.
17
18 Q. SodoIunderstandthenwhenyousayherewhatyou
19 heardwasthataboythathadbeenatschoolwithMannywas
20 aboywhohadbeenassaultedbyCyprys?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. Butyouweren'tpreciselysurewhoitwas?
24 A. Ididn'tknowthepersonandIthinkthekidsall
25 saidtheyprobablysaidhisnameatthetime. But
26 Ididn'tknowthepersonandIdon'tthinkhewasinthe
27 classwithanyofmykids. Ihadsixboysinarow,so
28 IhadkidsinclasseswithalotofpeoplebutIdon't
29 thinkhewasintheclass. It'snotsomeoneIknew.
30 Iwouldn'thaverecognisedhim.
31
32 Q. Didyoucomeacrossthisinformation,thisknowledge
33 thatCypryshadbeenchargedandreceivedabond,justbya
34 conversationinthecommunity?
35 A. Correct. Itwaswidelyknown. Itwasnotknownby
36 everybody,Ibelieve,butitwasknownverywidely.
37
38 Q. Andeventothepointofknowingwhatheactuallygot
39 whenhewenttocourt;isthatright?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. Andthiswasataboutthetimeofthecharge;isthat
43 whatyouaretalkingabout?
44 A. Yes,somethinglikethat,yes. Yes,ifitwasexactly
45 thenoramonthlaterorsomething,itwasaroundthen.
46 I'mprettysureweknewaboutitbeforehewenttocourt
47 andeverythinglikethat. I'mprettysure.
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1
2 Q. AnddidyouknowRobertSeifman?
3 A. Ididn'tknowhimpersonally,butIdidn'thavea
4 particularlygoodopinionofhim,no.
5
6 Q. Leavethataside.
7 A. Okay,sorry.
8
9 Q. Butyouknewwhohewasfromthesynagogue,didyou?
10 A. Yes,Iknewhewasinthe....
11
12 Q. Yes?
13 A. Justthathelookedlikeabarristerthatyes.
14
15 Q. Wewon'tgothere.
16 A. No,wewon'tgothere.
17
18 Q. CanItakeyoutoparagraphnumber8,please. Inthis
19 statementyouamendedittoreadyouwantedtosay
20 somethingaboutDavidKramer,referringtohimasRabbi
21 Kramer?
22 A. Sorry,justwhatIsaidbefore,whenIsaidwhat
23 Ithoughtofhim,Ididn'treallyknowhimbeforethat,but
24 whenIheardthatsomeonedefendedthatguyinthatwayand
25 gothimoff,thatmadeaverystrongimpressiononmeat
26 thetime. EventhoughIdidn'tknowanymore,Iwasvery
27 troubledbythat.
28
29 Q. Allright. Iunderstand. Itwasn'tpersonal,just
30 therole?
31 A. No,Ididn'tknowhimatall.
32
33 Q. Thankyouforclarifying. Canwecomebacknowto
34 DavidKramerandlateroninyourstatementyousaidyou
35 wantedtorefertohimasRabbiKramer?
36 A. Yes.
37
38 Q. WhatdidyouwanttotelltheCommissionaboutthat?
39 A. Well,becausethishasbeenpartofthewhenthings
40 havecomeouthesuddenlybecomesunrabbiedandthisis
41 somethingallovertheworld. ShouldIlookonlyatyou
42 or
43
44 Q. No,feelfree.
45 A. Itisveryimportanttounderstandthatinthe
46 Yeshivahitselfandeverywherejustaboutintheworldthey
47 trytoafterwardssuddenlyarabbiisnotarabbiand
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 theywillfindatechnicalreasonwhyhedidn'tpracticeas
2 arabbi. Buthewasarabbi. He'scalledrabbi. Hewas
3 knownasrabbiatschoolandit'sabsolutelywidespread.
4 HewasknownasRabbiKramer. Hehadordination. He
5 wasn'tpractisingasarabbiandthereareplentyofpeople
6 likethat. Butforallnormalconnotationsit'sjust
7 tryingtogiveasnowjobonpeopletonotcallhimrabbi,
8 andit'sparticular. It'snotanomission,it'svery
9 particular. It'sallpartofthisthing,inmyopinion,of
10 denyingliability,whitewashing. "It'snotus. It's
11 somebodyelse. He'snotarabbiandhe'snotthis. It's
12 somebodyelse." It'snot,"Wewouldneverdothistypeof
13 thingandwedon'tallowit." Andit'sjustincorrect.
14
15 Q. Socertainlyatthetimeyoutaughtyourchildren,you
16 andyourchildrenasfarasyouareawarealwaysreferred
17 tohimasRabbiKramer?
18 A. Yes. Wewerepersonalfriends,sowewouldhave
19 calledhimDavidaswell. Buteverybodyreferredhewas
20 knownasRabbiKramer.
21
22 Q. Ithinkyougointothatlateroninyourstatementas
23 partofthesurpriseforyouinthedisclosuresbecauseat
24 thetimeRabbiKramerwasyourfriend?
25 A. Correct.
26
27 Q. Andyouhadalottodowithhisfamily?
28 A. Mmmhmm.
29
30 Q. IncludingcelebratingtheSabbath?
31 A. Mmmhmm. Theywerebothfromoutoftown. Hiswife
32 wasIsraeli,aswasmywife. Hewasn'taclosepersonal
33 friendofminebecausehewasmuchyoungerthanme. Butwe
34 werefamilyfriendsandthefamilieshadafewkidsofthe
35 sameage. AsI'msaying,itwasparticularlyfromthe
36 wivesandthefactthattheywerestrangersfromoutof
37 townaswell. Theyhadonlyrecentlycome.
38
39 Q. IfIcanaskyounowtogobacktoyourstatementand
40 readusthatpartofyourstatementthatdealswiththe
41 disclosurebyyourchildrenoftheabusebyRabbiKramer?
42 A. OnFridaynightin1993Ioverheardtwoofmysons
43 arguing. Iaskedthem,"Whatareyoufightingabout?" The
44 elderofthetwoothersonssaidtomethatmyyoungerson
45 "issayingthatRabbiKramertouchedhim". Kramerwasa
46 teacheratYeshivahCollege,Melbourne. Atthistimemy
47 sonswereagedapproximatelyeightyearsandnineyears
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6080
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 old. Thisargumentoccurredasthefamilywereaboutto
2 sitdownforourSabbathmeal. Iwasinastateofshock.
3 Wedidnotdiscussthedisclosureoftheabuseanyfurther
4 atthistime. Kramerwaslovedandrespectedbyall
5 membersofthecommunity. Hewasprobablythemostpopular
6 teacherintheschoolatthetime. Kramer'swifewasfrom
7 Israel,asismywife,andourfamilywerequitecloseto
8 hisfamily. Kramerandhisfamilywouldvisitmyhomemany
9 timesforSabbath,festivalmeals,etcetera. The
10 closenessofthefamiliesmadethisdisclosureallthemore
11 shocking. Keepgoing?
12
13 Q. Keepgoing,please,nextparagraph?
14 A. Ilaterfoundoutafewweekspriortomyson's
15 disclosuretomethathehadmadethesamedisclosuretomy
16 wife. Mywifetoldmethis,butsaidthatthe"wordswent
17 inoneearandouttheother"becauseitseemedsooddand
18 sounusualtousatthetime.
19
20 Q. Thatmusthavebeenindeed,MrWaks,somevery
21 difficultinformationforyoutoprocessatthetime,to
22 haveyourchildtellyousomethingaboutsomeonewhoyou
23 knewandrespected?
24 A. Yes,well,whenIsayastateofshock,itwasshock
25 notinthewaythatIwasshockedtohearthatthishad
26 happened. Itwasshockalmostjustshockofthefirst
27 thing,IthinkIsayitlatersomewhere,aboutnotreally
28 knowingwhethertobelieveitandthefirstadvicewe
29 soughtwaswhethertobelieveiteven,becauseitwasjust
30 sounbelievable. Thatwastheshock. Notshockthatthis
31 couldhavehappened;wedidn'tgettothatyet.
32
33 Q. Itwastheshockofcoulditevenbetruethat
34 A. Yes,itwasmorejustshockthattheyweresayingthis
35 andcoulditbetrue,butnotatthedepthof"thishas
36 happened,howshocking,"notatthatlevel.
37
38 Q. Ithinkyougoonnowinyourstatementtotalkabout
39 whatyoudidinresponsetothatinformation. CouldIask
40 youtotelltheCommission,please,readingyourstatement
41 fromparagraph13andIwillstopyouataconvenienttime?
42 A. Okay. OnSundaymorningIspoketotheschool
43 principalofYeshivahCollegeatthetime,RabbiAbraham
44 Glick,RabbiGlick. Itoldhimwhatmysonshadsaid.
45 IcannotrecallexactlywhatIsaidtoRabbiGlick.
46 IrecallhavingconcernsastowhetherI,oranyoneelse,
47 wouldbelievemysons'account. RabbiGlicktoldmethat
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6081
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 hewouldspeaktoKramer. Afewhourslater,RabbiGlick
2 toldmethatKramerhadpartlyadmittedtowhathad
3 happened. Thisadmissionwasahugeshocktome,
4 especiallygivenmyinitialconcernsastowhetherIor
5 anyoneelsebelievedmysons'account.
6
7 ThefollowingdayontheMondayInoticedthatKramer
8 wasstillteachingattheschool. IconfrontedRabbiGlick
9 andsaidtohim,"What'sgoingon? Howisitpossiblethat
10 he'sstillhere?" ShouldIcommentorjustread?
11
12 Q. Yes,ifyoufeeltheneedtocomment.
13 A. InthepreviousparagraphIshouldcomment,whenIsay
14 ifanyonebelieved,ontheSaturdaynightwewerestillin
15 thisstateofshockwhethertobelieve. Ispoketotwo
16 verygoodfriendswhethertobelieveornot,psychologists.
17 Theysaid,"Look,wedon'tknoweither,butyoushould
18 definitelyspeaktoRabbiGlickaboutit." Becausethe
19 questionwasevenwhethertodoanything. Anyway,they
20 said,"Yes,itmaybetrue." Thatwasthat. Thenextone
21 iswhenIsay,"Howisitpossiblethatheisstillhere,"
22 sothatnooneshouldgettheimplicationthatIsaid"Why
23 didn'tyousendhimaway?" No,Ijustmeant"Whyishe
24 stillteachingattheschoolafteryouknowthis?" So
25 IsaidRabbiGlickrespondedwithwordstotheeffectthat,
26 "ThepsychiatristhasconcludedthatKramerallowedhimself
27 tobecaughtbecausehewantedtobestopped. Thereis
28 dangerofselfharm. Sowecan'tfirehim."
29
30 Ithoughtthiswasabsolutelyoutrageous. However,if
31 Ireportedmatterstothepolice,Iwouldbeinbreachof
32 theJewishprinciplemesirah. Ishouldagainpointout
33 herethatitwasn'tthatIthought,"Iwanttoreportitto
34 thepolicebutIcan'tbecauseit'smesirah." Thiswasthe
35 reason;mesirahandthewholecommunityculturewasthe
36 reason,notthatIsaid,"I'mgoingtoreportittothe
37 police." Itdidn'tevengettothat. OfcourseIknew
38 thatacrimehadbeencommittedhere,butyoujustdidn't
39 gettothatstage. Iknowitishardforpeopleto
40 comprehendthis.
41
42 Q. MaybeIcanexplorethatwithyou. Whenyousay"it's
43 hardtocomprehend",isitthattheexpectationwasatthat
44 timethatitwouldbedealtwith,ifitcouldbe,within
45 thecommunity;isthatwhatyoumean?
46 A. That'sputtingapositivespinonit. Iwouldsay
47 justdoinganythingaboutitourselveswasanono. What's
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6082
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 goingtobedoneisaseparatematter.
2
3 Q. Whenyousay"doinganythingaboutit"yourself
4 personally,doyoumeanthatyouneededsomekindof
5 permissiontodothatorthatyoufeltthatyouwouldneed
6 toinvolvetherabbisbeforedecidingwhattodo?
7 A. Yes,yes,yes,theywouldhavetobetotallyinvolved.
8 Itwasn'tjustamatterof,"Iwanttogotothepolice.
9 Iwillgoandgetpermission." No. Itwouldhavetobe
10 somethingthat'sreallyagreedtobyeverybody.
11
12 Q. Beforewegototheconceptofmesirah,soIcan
13 understandthat,Ithinkwehavealreadyheardyour
14 evidencethatatthistimeyouconsideredyourselfpartof
15 perhapsthehardcoreormorestrictlyadherentwithinthe
16 Orthodoxfaith. Andwehaveheardsomethatwouldmean
17 takingdirectionfromarabbionlotsofthelifedecisions
18 thattheymadeonaneverydaybasis;"Whatschool? What
19 shouldIdo? WhoshouldImarry? WhatshouldIdowithmy
20 work?" Wouldyouputyourselfinthatcategoryatthe
21 time?
22 A. 100percent. Again,toseparateouttwothings,the
23 Hasidicmovementalsohasthere'sthenormalconceptof
24 Jewishlawwhereyouareaskingarabbiforalegalopinion
25 aboutthings;daytodaythingsifyoudon'tknowthem
26 yourself. Ifyouknowwhatthelawisaboutsomethingyou
27 don'task. But,ifitissomethingthatyoudon'tknowor
28 theremaybeambiguity,youask. Thenthere'saseparate
29 conceptamongHasidimofaRebbe. Itsoundsthesamebut
30 it'snot. Rebbe. That'sthespiritualleaderofthewhole
31 movementwhoispurportedtohavespecialspiritualpowers.
32 Thereyouwillbeaskingmajorlifedecisions,before
33 gettingmarried,even,"ShallIgooutwiththisperson?"
34 Sorry?
35
36 Q. Goon,please?
37 A. "Thedoctor'srecommendedmetodothisoperation.
38 ShouldIdoit?" Etcetera. Everysortofmajordecision
39 inlife. Anything. Everything. Mywifeoncehadalittle
40 growthonherfinger,andthedoctorwantedtodoabiopsy.
41 Sowewroteinforthat. That'salreadyamedical
42 procedure,notjustgoingandseeingthedoctor. Wedidn't
43 getananswer. Icheckedacoupleoftimestoseeifwe
44 hadgotananswer. Therewasnoanswer. Sowedidn'tgo
45 ahead. Thedoctorwasfurious. Hehadalreadybookeda
46 room. Wedidn'tgoaheadanddoabiopsy. ThankGodthat
47 was30yearsago. She'sfine. Butitwasdowntothat
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6083
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 level.
2
3 Q. WereyoureferringtheretotheLubavitchRebbe?
4 A. Correct.
5
6 Q. Wasitcommonthenforpeopleinadditiontoseeking,
7 say,arabbi'sinterpretationofthelaw,Jewishlaw,to
8 lookspecificallytotheLubavitchRebbeforguidancein
9 allofthosedaytodaydecisions?
10 A. Again,it'snotthedaytodayones. Therearesome
11 fanaticalpeoplethatmightdoitonweusedtoalmost
12 jokeaboutit,thelevelsofwhattheybeforetheywent
13 tothetoilettheywouldaskhim. ButI'mnottalking
14 aboutthem. ThetypeofthingsI'msaying,beforeyougot
15 anewbusiness,beforeyoumovedcountriescertainly.
16 BeforewemovedbacktoAustraliaIaskedmanytimeswe
17 didn'tmovebackwithoutgettingactualpermissionand
18 blessingtocomebacktoAustralia. Itriedformany
19 years. Allmajordecisionsoflife.
20
21 Q. AndthereforeIassumethenthattheLubavitchRebbe
22 hadagreatcapacitytoinfluencewhatwashappeningwithin
23 thecommunity,firstlyhimselfthroughhislifetime?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. And,secondly,mayIaskwasthereaparticular
27 respectpaidtoemissarieswhohadbeenchosenbytheRebbe
28 tobesenttothecommunity?
29 A. Yes,theywouldbebecausethere'saconceptin
30 Jewishlawthatanemissaryisconsideredasthesender
31 themselves,andthatwasverymuchstressed. Itbecamea
32 problemsometimesifonedidn'treallyregardtheemissary
33 asbeingonthesamelevelasthesender. Butthatwasthe
34 game.
35
36 Q. Andsowastheroleoftheemissarythentostandin
37 theplaceoftheLubavitchRebbewithintheterritoryin
38 theChabadcommunity?
39 A. Yes,butagainitwouldn'tbeatthelevelyou
40 wouldn'tbegoingaskingtheemissarythesetypesof
41 questions. ThatwouldbepurelyjustfortheRebbe
42 himself,eveninpersonifyoulivedinAmericaorfrom
43 hereitwouldbefaxorbytelephone. Itwasavery
44 regularoccurrence. Youhavetounderstanditmeansall
45 thesepeopleallovertheworld,tensofthousandsof
46 people,askingallthesetypesofquestionseveryday.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6084
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. WehaveseensomeevidencethatsuggestsRabbiGroner
2 wastheemissarysentbytheRebbetoMelbourne?
3 A. Yes,that'saveryinterestingthingand,without
4 goingintointernalpolitics,thereissomedisagreement
5 aboutexactlyhowthathappenedinthisparticularcase.
6 RabbiGronerwasaveryhewasverydeterminedtobethe
7 emissaryandIcan'tvouchforexactlythewayitwas. But
8 heoriginallycametoAustralianotastheemissary. He
9 cameinadifferentcapacityaltogether. Hewas
10 apparentlyheadmasteroftheschoolorsomethinglikethat.
11 Thereissomecontentionastowhathappened,howhegotto
12 beinchargeofthewholething.
13
14 Q. Soinorderfortheretobecontention,therewasat
15 leastapremisethathewasinfacttheemissary,although
16 somepeopletooksomeissuewiththat;doIunderstandthat
17 evidence?
18 A. Whenyousayapremise,atonestageitmorphed
19 whateveritwasmorphedintotheactuality.
20
21 Q. Andtheactualitybeingthathewastheemissaryof
22 theRebbeforMelbourne?
23 A. Yes,atsomestagehedefinitelydidbecomethe
24 emissary,yes.
25
26 Q. Thesemajorlifedecisions,aftertheLubavitch
27 Rebbe'spassing,whohadresponsibilitythenforproviding
28 thecounselinrelationtothesemajorlifedecisions?
29 A. Thisisveryembarrassingforme. Essentiallyit
30 brokeintotwocamps:thosethatsaidtheRebbeisno
31 longerhereandthenIdon'tknowwhatalotofthose
32 peoplewoulddo,andsomepeoplewentalongwiththeidea
33 thathe'sreallystillaround,totally,andbyopening
34 booksofhisyouwillgetanswers,especiallymanybooks
35 werepublishedwithlettersofhis. So,theideawasthat
36 youwouldopenabookandgetananswertoexactlyyour
37 question. Peopleeventookittotheextenttheywould
38 say,"TheRebbetoldmetodothis,"andIwouldhaveto
39 checksometimesifthepersonwasacertainagegroup,
40 whethertheyhadactuallybeenaroundwhentheRebbewas
41 thereandtheRebbetoldthemtodothisoriftheyare
42 sayingitbecausetheyopenedabookandtheyperceivedan
43 answerthereontheirown. Butthere'sanabsolute
44 there'sabitofadichotomyastowhat'sgoingon.
45
46 Q. CanIcomebacknowto
47 A. Thereisnophysicalperson,though,thatyougoto
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6085
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 anymore. That'sarealproblem. Thereisnoleadership

2 inthatrespect.
3
4 Q. CanIcomebacktomesirah,butjustsaybeforeIask
5 youtoreadonaboutthat,atleastatthetime,onceyour
6 sonshadspokentoyou,youhadspokentoyourwife,you
7 thenspoketoapsychologistwhosaid,"Youshoulddo
8 something,atleastspeaktoRabbiGlick,"andthenyou
9 spoketoRabbiGlickandhetoldyouthathewouldspeakto
10 Kramerandhedoesthatandcomesback?
11 A. Mmmhmm.
12
13 Q. Atleastatthatstageyoufeelthatsomethingshould
14 bedone,buteventhenfromyourownperspectiveisyour
15 evidencethattherewasnorealabilityforyoutohave
16 decidedyourselfjustthereandthentogoofftothe
17 police?
18 A. Yes. Whenyousaynoability,Imeanitwasataboo,
19 likeincestoranythinglikethat. Itwasthatbiga
20 taboo.
21
22 Q. Canyoupleasegoonandreadforusalittlebitmore
23 abouthowyoudescribemesirahandyourunderstanding?
24 A. MesirahisaJewishprinciplewhichstatesthatone
25 Jewishpersoncannotreportontheconductofanother
26 JewishpersontononJewishauthorities. Ifyouwantto
27 approachnonJewishauthoritiesorgotoanonJewish
28 court,youneedtoreceivepermissionfromyourrabbi.
29 Fromarabbi,reallyitshouldbe.
30
31 Myunderstandingisthathistoricallymesirahapplied
32 toavoidpersecutionofJewishpeopleatatimewhenJewish
33 peoplewerenotaffordedafairtrial. Itisbasedonthe
34 beliefthatbringingthe"dirtylinen"ofJewishpeopleto
35 thebroadersocietywouldjustifyantiSemitismandbring
36 shameandgriefontheJewishcommunity.
37
38 Apersonwhobreachesmesirahisconsideredan
39 informer,calledamoserorrodef. Amoserisstrictlythe
40 personthat'sdoingmesirah. Arodefisevenmoregeneral.
41 Rodefmeanssomeonewhoisliterallychasingaftersomeone.
42 Sosomeoneischasingafteryoutokillyou,heiscalleda
43 rodef. Chasingiswhatitmeans. Soamoserisconsidered
44 apersonthat'schasingyoutokillyou. Now,onthis
45 secondterm,soamoserisarodef. Rodefisamore
46 generalterm. Infact,arodef,initsmostextremeform
47 Jewishlawsanctionsthevigilantekillingofapersonwho
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6086
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 breachesmesirah. Notjustmesirah,anyrodef. Thatmeans

2 justbecauseapersonisdoingmesirahasifheischasing
3 afteryou,andanyonethat'schasingafteryoutokillyou,
4 youcankillhim. Attheveryleast,thebreachofmesirah
5 almostalwaysleadstoshunningandintimidationwithinthe
6 Jewishcommunityandwouldalmostcertainlydamagethe
7 marriageprospectsofyourchildrenasmarriageswithinthe
8 Chabadcommunitywere,atleastthen,almostalways
9 arranged. Disapprovalofafamilybythecommunitywould
10 havedireconsequencesforthemarriageprospectsofthe
11 children.
12
13 Soagaintomakeitclear,becauseithasthis
14 backgroundofvigilantekillingevenifsomeoneisan
15 rodef,evenifitisnotbeingclaimedthatthatImyself
16 wasnotinfearofthat,butthestigmaattachedtoitand
17 theapprobationandeverythingattachedtothatremains
18 today. That'sveryimportanttounderstand.
19
20 Q. CanIaskyouthis,then. Labellingsomeoneamoser
21 isnotsomethingdonelightly?
22 A. No,ingeneral. Whenitisdoneseriously,no. It's
23 very,veryserious. It'smorethancallingthemaratbag
24 oraBoranothertypeofBoranfingB. It'sworsethan
25 anyofthosethings.
26
27 Q. Ifacommunitycametoviewsomeoneasamoser,was
28 yourunderstandingthatthatwouldleadtocommunity
29 ostracisation?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. Aninabilityordifficultyingettingyourchildren
33 married?
34 A. Everything.
35
36 Q. Affectingyourwork?
37 A. Everything.
38
39 Q. Affectingyourrelationshipswithotherpeoplewithin
40 thecommunity?
41 A. Everything.
42
43 Q. CanIaskyoutoreadonfromparagraph19,please?
44 A. ItwasunderstoodatthetimethatRabbiGroner,
45 YeshivahandChabadingeneralwereallagainstreporting
46 tothepolice. IshouldsayultraOrthodoxherein
47 general,notjustChabad. MuchlaterIwasinformedbya
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6087
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 friend,MosheNeubauer,thatRabbiGronerhadannounced
2 thatnoonewaseventotalkaboutwhathadhappened.
3
4 Q. WithKramer?
5 A. Yes. OnthatsamedayanotherparentandIsothis
6 isthatMondaydecidedtoholdameetingwithother
7 parentsofchildrenwhowerecurrentstudentsofKramer.
8 Wearrangedforthemeetingtobeheldatapproximately
9 7pmatmyhouse. Wedividedthelistofparentsinhalf
10 andtelephonedapproximately15to20peopleintotal. The
11 purposeofthemeetingwastodiscusswhetherthepolice
12 weretobeinvolved. Weweregoingtodiscussputtingto
13 theleadersoftheYeshivahCentrethatalltheparents
14 wouldgotothepoliceenmasseifKramerwasnotfired.
15
16 Soitwasn'ttosaywhetherthepoliceshouldbeinvolved.
17 Itwastosayenmasse,decideiftheydon'tfireKramerwe
18 aregoingtogotothepolice. Thatwasthedecision.
19
20 Q. Atthistimewastheregeneralconcernbytheparents
21 aboutthefactthatKramerwasstillteaching,obviously?
22 A. Yes,that'swhytheywereallgoingtothat'showwe
23 gotthemeetinggoingandthat'swhatmadetheotherperson
24 willingtocooperateandeverything,assaidlater. He
25 deniesitnow. Butthat'swhythewholethinggotgoing.
26 Everybodywasabitoutragedaboutit.
27
28 Q. Allright. Whenyousayeveryone,howdidtheycome
29 toknow? Twoofyoursonshadtoldyouaboutwhathad
30 occurred. Didyoucometoknowaboutothercomplaints
31 against
32 A. Iimmediatelyheard,probablyonthatsameSunday
33 Iheardaboutotherthings,anditgotoutimmediately
34 becausehehadadmittedit,sotherewasnomoreany
35 problemofallegationsoranything. Sothewordhadgot
36 outprettyquickly,eventhoughmanypeopledidn'tbelieve
37 it,evenafterhehadalreadyadmittedit. Irememberone
38 particularpersonIwenttointhelearningplaceand
39 Itoldhim,youknow,"KramerhasjustadmittedtoRabbi
40 Glick." TheguythoughtIwasmakingitup."It'snot
41 possible. You'relying." Butitwasknownalreadyonthe
42 Sunday. Sootherpeoplewouldhaveheardandthenmight
43 haveaskedthekids. Idon'tknowhowitcameabout,but
44 parentsstartedtoknow.
45
46 Q. Yousayyoudon'tknowhowitcameaboutthatpeople
47 cametoknowabouttheadmissions?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6088
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 A. Aboutyoumeanabouttheirownkids? Theymight
2 havejustthoughtwemighthavejustsaid"There'smore
3 kids,weknowaboutmorekids." Maybeeveryonethathada
4 kidintheclassaskedtheirkids. Idon'tknowhowit
5 camethattheseparentswereprepared,ifitwasbecause
6 theyknewfromtheirownkidsorjustbecausetheyhadkids
7 intheclassandtheysuspectedtheremaybeaproblem.
8 Idon'trememberthatdetail.
9
10 Q. Justbeforeyougoonfromthere,canIaskforthe
11 documentattab208,OPP.3016.002.0105_ERtobebroughtup.
12 Imightaskyouthis. DoyouknowapersoncalledRamon
13 Lewis?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. Haveyoueverseenthisdocumentbefore?
17 A. No.
18
19 Q. PerhapsIwilljustreadthistoyou,MrWaks. This
20 wasastatementpreparedbyProfessorLewisforthepolice
21 intheinvestigationofRabbiDavidKramer:
22
23 In1992,althoughIcannotrecalltheexact
24 date,Iwasaskedbyamemberofthe
25 YeshivahCentretospeaktoRabbiKramerin
26 ordertodetermineifhehadacted
27 inappropriatelytowardssomeofthe
28 children. Thiswasbecausethepersonwho
29 askedmetointerviewRabbiKramerwas
30 tryingtoascertainifhehadsexually
31 molestedanyoftheboys. Iwasaskedto
32 dothisbecauseofmyinvolvementwiththe
33 centreinthepast. Mybackgroundisin
34 educationalpsychologyandIhadtrained
35 someoftheirteachersandworkedwiththe
36 Yeshivahschoolinothercapacities. This
37 iswhyIwasaskedatthetime. Ican't
38 recallthepersonthataskedme.
39
40 IwenttoRabbiKramer'shometheevening
41 afterbeingbriefed. RabbiKramerlivedin
42 anapartmentbuildingoppositetheYeshivah
43 CollegeinHothamStreet,EastStKilda.
44 Hisapartmentwas[redacted]. Ibelieveit
45 was[redacted]. WhenIgotthereIwent
46 insideandspokewithRabbiKramerinthe
47 loungeroom. Ibelievethathiswifewas
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6089
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 intheapartmentatthetimebutwasnot
2 presentIspoketohim. Theconversation
3 startedbymetellinghimwhyIwasthere
4 andIaskedhimifhehadanysexual
5 involvementwithanyoftheboys. Rabbi
6 Krameradmittedtomethathehadtouched
7 theboysbuthewasquiteclearthatthe
8 boyshadinitiatedthetouchingandthatno
9 harmwasdone. Heindicatedabeliefthat
10 theboyshadenjoyedit. Thetoneofhis
11 admissionswerequitedisturbingtomeas
12 Icouldseethattherewasnocontrition.
13
14 WhenRabbiKramerstatedthathehad
15 touchedtheboys,hedidn'tmentionthe
16 numberofboyshetouchedbutIfeltlike
17 hewasdescribinganumberofboysthathe
18 hadtouched.
19
20 Iwentbacktothepersonwhoaskedmeto
21 conducttheinterviewandtoldthemwhat
22 wassaidbyKramertome.
23
24 Wewillleavethat. Thatinfactseemstocorroborateina
25 sensewhatyousayRabbiGlicktoldyou?
26 A. Exactly.
27
28 Q. ThathewouldspeaktoRabbiKramerandthenatsome
29 stagehecamebacktoyouandsaidthatKramerhadmade
30 someadmissions?
31 A. Heevenactuallyalsomentionedtomethat,"Kramer
32 hadtoldme,like,itwasonlyabouthalfthepeopleand
33 onlyabitofthingsandthattheboyshadinitiatedit."
34 Heactuallytoldmethat. Glicktoldmethataswell.
35
36 Q. AndthisconversationthatyouhadwithRabbiGlick
37 wherehemadethoseadmissionswasontheSundaybeforethe
38 followingdaywhenyounoticedRabbiKramerstillatthe
39 school?
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. Andthatwasinresponsetotheadmissionandthen
43 goingtotheschoolthenextdayandseeingRabbiKramer
44 therethatledyoutospeaktoRabbiGlickandsay,"What's
45 goingon? Howisitpossiblehe'sstillhere?"?
46 A. Yes.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6090
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Andhetoldyousomethingtotheeffectthattherewas
2 someconcernaboutselfharm?
3 A. Itwasthosewords. Theyhadbeentoldbya
4 particularpsychiatrist,whoIknowwhoitis. Ithinkhe
5 hassincedeniedit,butanyway.
6
7 Q. Allright. IfIcantakeyoubacktoyourstatement,
8 please. Youwereabouttoreadthataspectofyour
9 evidenceyousayoccurredinthemeeting. DoIunderstand
10 ittobethatitwasunacceptabletoyou,followingthose
11 admissionsandthefactofthecomplaints,thatRabbi
12 KramerwasstillattheschoolontheMondaywhenyouwent
13 toseehimandthatalsoitwasalsounacceptablethat
14 RabbiGlickdidnotappeartobepreparedtodoanything
15 aboutit?
16 A. Correct.
17
18 Q. Wasthatwhatledtothismeetingwiththechildren?
19 A. Correct.
20
21 Q. Ortheparents?
22 A. Correct. Thespecificreasonofthemeeting,itwas
23 toagain,wewenttothisridiculousextremebecauseof
24 theproblemofbeingworriedwhatwillhappen. Twopeople
25 wereinvolvedinevencallingthemeetingandthenthe
26 meetingwascalled,theexpresspurposewouldbethatwe
27 woulddecidetothreatentogotothepoliceiftheydidn't
28 getridofhim. Thatwasall.
29
30 Q. Wasitthesensethatyoufeltthatifitwasa
31 communaldecisionnoonepersoncouldbeblamed?
32 A. Couldn'tbepickedoff,that'sright,ortherewould
33 bemuchlesschance. Therewouldbesomanypeopleit
34 wouldbealreadyproblematicalanditwouldbeknown,
35 etcetera,etcetera.
36
37 Q. CanIaskyoutoread,andIthinkyouwereaboutto
38 saythat,actually. "Ibelievethatifwemadethe
39 decisionasagroup"Idon'tknowifyoureadit,butif
40 youcanreaditfromthere?
41 A. Ibelievethatifwemadethedecisionasagroup,no
42 oneindividualwouldbeblamedforbreachingtheprinciple
43 ofmesirah. Notjustmesirah,reallyit'swiderthanthat
44 again;goingagainstthistaboo,whichincludedmesirah,
45 obviously.
46
47 Q. Butthetabooofgoingtothepoliceortaking
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6091
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 somethingoutsidethecommunity?
2 A. Yes,yes,goingtothepolice. Theparentwhohelped
3 mearrangethemeetinghassincedeniedhisinvolvement.
4
5 Q. Keepreading.
6 A. Shortlybeforethecommencementofthemeetingatmy
7 homeIreceivedatelephonecallfromHershCooper,Cooper,
8 whowasaseniorlawyerandchairmanoftheBoardof
9 ManagementoftheYeshivahCentreatthetime. Coopersaid
10 wordstotheeffect,"He'sbeenfired. Calloffthe
11 meeting." IcannotnowrecallhowCooperknewofthe
12 meeting. IbelieveCoopermadethistelephonecallto
13 avoidmattersspreadingwithintheYeshivahcommunity,and
14 tostopusreportingtothepolice. Afterthetelephone
15 callendedwithCooper,Iimmediatelycalledallthe
16 parentsandinformedthemthatthemeetinghadbeen
17 cancelled. Wedidnotmakeapolicecomplaintatthis
18 time. IdidnottellRabbiGlickaboutmyconversation
19 withCooper. BecauseGlickalreadywasn'tinvolvedinthis
20 wholeproceeding. Imean,Ihadgivenuponhim,soIhad
21 noreasontoringhim.
22
23 Q. AndHarryCooperwaswellknowntoyouatthetime?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. Anddoyousayoneoftheparentswhowasinvolvedin
27 this,inarrangingthismeeting,hassincedeniedhis
28 involvement?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. Withoutnamingthatperson,didtheytellyou
32 A. Theydidn'tspeaktome. Theydenieditobviouslyto
33 thepolice.
34
35 Q. Someoneelse. Allrightthen. CanIjustaskyouto
36 holdforonesecondbeforewemoveonfromthere.
37 A. I'mnotgoingtodoit,butit'sjustashamethatthe
38 personcan'tbenamed,isallIcansay.
39
40 Q. Justreadonforme?
41 A. Sorry?
42
43 Q. Justreadon?
44 A. That's22. InowfeltthatIhadablackmarkagainst
45 mynamewithintheYeshivahcommunityfororganisingthe
46 meetingatmyhouse,andbeingtheinstigatorofthe
47 possibilityofinvolvingthepolice.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6092
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 AttheendofthatsameweekInoticedthatKramerwas
3 absentfromsynagogue. Kramerwasalsoabsentfrom
4 Sabbath,whichwasmostunusual. Itwascommonknowledge
5 atthistimethattheYeshivahCentrepaidforMrKramerto
6 leaveAustralia,orRabbiKramer,andtraveltoIsrael.
7 Thatwasthenextweek. ThefirstSabbathwenoticedhe
8 wasgone,notaround,butitwasonlythenextweekthatwe
9 foundoutthathewasactuallyoutofAustralia.
10
11 Uponbeinginformedofthis,whenIheardthathehad
12 actuallygone,IapproachedMrShmuelGurewicsz,whowasa
13 goodfriendandtheprincipalofBethRivkahCollege
14 Melbourneatthetime. BethRivkahistheJewishday
15 schoolforgirlsrunbytheYeshivahCentreandisthe
16 schoolmydaughtersattended. IsaidtoGurewicsz,"What's
17 goingtohappen? He'sgoingtooffendinIsrael."
18 Gurewicszrespondedwithwordstothefollowingeffect:
19 "No,no,no. Don'tworryaboutit. I'mlookingafterit.
20 RabbiGronerhasmademeresponsibletolookafterit
21 overseas,tomakesurethateverybodyknowsaboutitandhe
22 won'toffendanymoreandwe'regoingtogethimtreatment
23 andeverythinglikethat."
24
25 ApproximatelysixmonthslaterIspoketoGurewicsz
26 again. Irecallhesaidwordstotheeffect,"Kramer's
27 beentoapsychologistandhe'sfinishedtreatment." Iwas
28 doubtfulthatthishadoccurred. Thereasoninparticular
29 Iwasdoubtful,Ihaddonealittlebitofresearchafter
30 allthiscameoutandIsawsuccessratesoftreatmentand
31 recidivismandeverythingandIwasextremelydoubtfulon
32 thebalanceofprobabilitiesthatthiswastrue.
33
34 IremainedconcernedthatKramercontinuedtoposea
35 dangertothecommunity. Threetofouryearslater
36 IvisitedIsraelandinquiredaboutKramer. Ispoketo
37 peoplewholivedinthecitywhereKramerresidedand
38 eventuallyreceivedhiscontactdetails. Itelephoned
39 Kramerandexpressedmyconcernthathecontinuedtoposea
40 risktothecommunityandIwantedtoconfirmthathehad
41 infactreceivedtreatment. Ireceivedpermissionfromhim
42 tospeaktohispsychologistinIsrael,andhesaidhe
43 wouldactuallyspeaktothepsychologistandlethimknow
44 thatIwasgoingtoringhimandhegavemehisnumberand
45 everything. HesaiditwasAharonRabinowicz.
46 ItelephonedRabinowiczandheinitiallydidnotwantto
47 speaktome. Eventhoughheknewthathehadbeen
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6093
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 contactedbyKramer,hestilldidn'twanttotalktome.
2 Isaidwordstotheeffect,"Justanswermeonethingthen.
3 Kramerhastoldmehe'sfinishedacourseoftreatmentwith
4 you. Isthattrue?" Rabinowiczlaughedandsaid,"Heran
5 outofmoney." Apparentlyheonlyhadafewsessions.
6 Like,itwasjustacompletejoke. Continue?
7
8 Q. No,juststopthereforasecond. Iwilltakeyouto
9 theconvictionofKramer. Oneofthethingsyousaidthere
10 inyourevidenceisthatyouasoneoftheparentswanted
11 Krameroutoftheschool?
12 A. Mmmhmm.
13
14 Q. Whatdoyousaytoanysuggestionthatyouhad
15 suggestedthathebesentawayorsentoverseas?
16 A. Alie. Acompletelie,andnooneeverthoughtabout
17 itatthetime. Wewereallshockedwhenwefoundhehad
18 goneoutofthecountry. Whatdidwethinkwasgoingto
19 happen? Wedidn'tthink. It'sridiculous. Didwethink
20 theyweregoingtogotothepolice? Weprobablythought
21 no. Idon'tknow;wedidn'tthink. ButIknowwewereall
22 shockedandI'mfriendlywithaguywhosefatherownedthe
23 apartmenthewaslivingin. Hedidn'ttellmeatthetime
24 buthetoldmelaterthathehimselfwasshocked. Noone
25 knew. Noonewasexpectingit. Noone. Hewentandtold
26 hisfatherinlawontheThursdayorsomethinglikethat,
27 "Guesswhat? Yourguy'sgone." Andtheguythatownedthe
28 propertycouldn'tbelieveitandhewasworriedwhat's
29 happenedtohistenant. Hetoldmethatthe
30 fatherinlawspoketoRabbiGronerandRabbiGronertoldhim,
"Don't
31 worry,we'regoingtolookafterpayingforthe,youknow,
32 thefactthatyoudon'thaveatenantnow. Wewilllook
33 afterit."
34
35 Q. ButthelandlordtoldyouthatRabbiGronerhadsaidto
36 him
37 A. Thesoninlawofthelandlordtoldmethatherang
38 RabbiGronerbecausehewasworriedtheguyhadsuddenly
39 disappeared. Sothefatherinlaw,worriedaboutnot
40 havinghistenantnow. Idon'tknowifthefatherinlaw
41 knewwhatthewholestorywas,buthistenanthasgoneand
42 heringsRabbiGronerandsays,"Don'tworry,we'lllookafter
43 payingwhateverwehavetopaybecausehehasdisappeared
44 withoutbeingnotified." I'mbringingthisuptoshow
45 nobodyknewhewasgone. Wesawhewasn'tinsynagogue.
46 Wethoughtthatwasprobablybecausehewasembarrassedor
47 somethinglikethat,butwedidnotknowhehadgone
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6094
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 overseas. ThesuggestionthatIsaidthatisjustabsurd,
2 especiallywhenyoulookthatafterwardswhatIdid
3 physically,"Hey,he'sgoneoverseas. What'sgoingto
4 happen?" Itjustdoesn'taddup. Iwastheonlypersonas
5 farasIknowthatdidanything. SothatIwouldhave
6 exactlybeenthatpersonwhichiswhat'sbeingclaimedby
7 somepeopleispurelymalicious.
8
9 Q. Youweretold,though,thatsomethingwouldbetaken
10 careof,thatsomeonewasgoingtospeaktosomeone
11 overseasor
12 A. Yes,Gurewicszwasgoingtodoitbecausehe'dlived
13 inIsrael,hiswifeisIsraeli. HewasseniorinChabad,a
14 wellknownfigure. Principaloftheschool. Hewouldbe
15 theperfectpersontodoit,that'scorrect.
16
17 Q. I'mgoingtoask,please,ifdocument78ofthe
18 proposedtenderbundlecouldbebroughtup. Itisdocument
19 OPP.3016.002. ItisastatementofHarryCoopermadeto
20 thepoliceintheinvestigation. Haveyouseenthis
21 statementbefore?
22 A. No. Whenwasthismade?
23
24 Q. It'sdated1December2011?
25 A. Sothiswasmadeaftertheinvestigationstartednow,
26 notthen.
27
28 Q. Yes. Notthen,no. Ijustwantedtoreadpartofthe
29 statementtoyouandthenaskyousomequestions:
30
31 AtthetimeKramerwasteachingatthe
32 school
33
34 ThisisastatementmadeinrelationtoDavidKramer:
35
36 Iwasamemberandexecutiveofthe
37 YeshivahCollegeanditsunofficial
38 chairman.
39
40 A. "Unofficial". Imean,whatIjoke.
41
42 Q. MrWaks,isthisHarryCooperthepersonyouhave
43 referredtoinyourstatementasHershCooper?
44 A. Yes.
45
46 Q. Doyoubelievethisisthesameperson?
47 A. Itis,yes.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6095
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. Youknewhimastheofficialchairman,isthatright?
3 A. That'scorrect. Everybodydid.
4
5 Q. Hisrolewastochairexecutivemeetingsoftheschool
6 boardwhoweretheadviserstothedirectorofallYeshivah
7 institutions,RabbiIsaacGroner. Theexecutivecomprised
8 fiveorsixmembers. Anyway,thisisdealingwiththe
9 complaintin1992. MrCoopersaysthefollowing:
10
11 Ican'trecallhowIfirstbecameinvolved
12 withtheincidentsinvolvingKramer,butit
13 waseitherPinchasAshorRabbiGroneror
14 threeparentswhofirstnotifiedmeofan
15 issuewithhim. Thosethreeparentswere
16 ZephaniahWaks,[redacted]andIbelieve
17 [redacted]. I'mnotsurewhetherIspoke
18 of[anotherpersonaswell]
19
20 A. ShouldIsaysomethingnow?
21
22 Q. Iwillgiveyouanopportunity:
23
24 Itwasthechildrenoffourofthose
25 parentsthatwerethesubjectofthe
26 complaint. Thechildrenwere[redacted].
27 Idon'tknowtothisdaywhatKramerwas
28 actuallyaccusedofinspecificdetail.
29 IthinkitwasPinchasAsh,thethen
30 headmasteroftheprimaryschoolatthe
31 YeshivahCentre,whofirstinformedmethat
32 therewasanissuewithKramer,whohad
33 beenaccusedbytheparentsofmessing
34 aroundwiththeirchildren.My
35
understandingofthiswasthatitrelated
toinappropriate sexual behaviour. Neither
36
the parents,nor Rabbi Groner, ever
37
specificallyspelt out the particulars of
38
the allegedmisbehaviour.
39
40
Imetwiththree of the parents I met
41
withZephaniah Waks and [two other persons
42
who havebeenredacted]. They were very,
43
veryirate. They accused Kramer of sexual
44
molestationof the above children and
45
demandedthatthe school immediately sack
46
Kramerandget rid of him. I understood
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6096
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 thattheseincidentshadoccurredinthe
2 classroom,soIthereforebelievedthatit
3 wasn'tactualsexualrelations.
4
5 A. WhatcanItellyou? "Isaythatwasokay,becauseit
6 wasnotactuallypenetration. Thatwasreallyokay".
7
8 Q. Diditappeartoyouatanytimethattherewasalmost
9 aminimisationofthecomplaintsthatyouweremaking
10 againstRabbiKramer?
11 A. No,itwasn'treallydiscussed. But,Imean,no,
12 Iwouldn'tthinkthatIthoughtaboutthat. Ijustthought
13 thattheyweredoingtheircourseofactionforthereasons
14 thattheyweredoing;notthattheywerethinkingabout
15 whateverhappenedatall. Imean,theywerethinking,the
16 wayIthoughtofitatthetime,thattheywereprotecting
17 theschool,thename,theinstitution,everythinglikethat
18 andIliterallythoughtatthetime,"Bethekids,"ifyou
19 knowwhatImean. Couldn'tcareaboutthekids. "Weare
20 protectingtheinstitutionatallcosts." Theyweren't
21 goingintodetails. Noonewasthinkingwhathadhappened
22 tothekids. Itwasjustthereactionitwasveryblack
23 andwhite.
24
25 Q. MrCoopersaysorsaidtothepolicethattheparents
26 toldhimtheywantedthematterkeptconfidentialsothat
27 thechildrenwouldnotsufferastigmainclass. Whatdo
28 yousayaboutthat?
29 A. Idon'trememberthatatall. Ifinditdifficultto
30 believebecauseweknewandnotonlyweknew,afterwards
31 I'vegotsomeonethatwasinaroomwhenCoopercameinin
32 Groner'shouseandtoldhim,"Wehaveinvestigatedandwe
33 found60victimsofKramer." Sotheyknewtheextent. We
34 alreadyknewthereweremany,manyvictims. Sowhatstigma
35 wouldtherebeifthewholeclasshadbeenmolested?
36 Idon'trememberthatandIfinditalittlebitdifficult
37 tobelieve.
38
39 Q. Yourevidencewasthattherewasameetingofsome,
40 what,20parentsplanned?
41 A. Correct.
42
43 Q. Andtheyallknewthereasonwhytheywerecoming?
44 A. Ididn'tknowexactlyatwhatstage. Someofthem
45 wouldhavenodoubtspokentothekids,theywouldhave
46 heard,someofthemmighthaveknownabouttheirownkids.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6097
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Wereyouinvolvedincallingparentsaswellto
2 organisethismeeting?
3 A. Yes,wesplitthelist,meandbytheway,Isee
4 fromthatthattherewasobviouslyatleastoneother
5 personthat'sadmittedmeetingCooperorCooperadmitsmet
6 withhim. Sothatnodoubtwouldhavebeentheother
7 person.
8
9 Q. Andintermsofthepeopleyoucalledonthelist,did
10 youtellthem,"Youneedtocometohaveameetingsowe
11 cantalkaboutwhatwearegoingtodoaboutRabbiKramer"?
12 A. Yes,Iwouldhaveexplainedtothemwearedoingit
13 fortheexpresspurposethathe'sbeingsacked. Thatwas
14 thepurposeofthemeeting.
15
16 Q. Andifwegodowntoparagraph10,MrCoopersaidthis
17 tothepoliceatthetime:
18
19 Inmymind,theparents'mainconcernwas
20 immediateaction,andprotectingthe
21 reputationsoftheirchildren. Theparents
22 alsosaidthatiftheschoolwasnottodo
23 anythingtheywouldcallanimmediate
24 meetingofalloftheparentsofthekids
25 intheclassinordertogetsomeaction.
26
27 A. Idon'tunderstandwhatthishasgottoreputations
28 oftheirchildrenandgettingaction. Idon'tunderstand
29 howthetwothingsgotogether,actually.
30
31 Q. Inanyevent,thesecondpartofthatevidencethat
32 MrCoopergavetothepolice,that"theparentsalsosaid
33 thatiftheschoolwasnottodoanythingtheywouldcall
34 animmediatemeetingofalloftheparentsofthekidsin
35 theclassinordertogetsomeaction,"thatstatementis
36 consistentwiththeevidenceyouhavegiventoday,andin
37 factwhatyoudiddo,yousetabouthavingameetingtoget
38 someaction?
39 A. Yes. Yes. Again,thenextsentence,"Theydidnot
40 stateorimplythattheywantedthepolicetobeinvolved."
41 Again,basedonwhatIhavetoldyouthewholetime,that
42 reallywasn'tpartofthewholeequation,willwegotothe
43 policeornot. Itwasonlygoingtobeusedasatool,as
44 alastresorttooliftheydidn'tgetaction,theother
45 action,whichmeantstoppinghimteaching,andwhatever
46 elsewasgoingtohappen,wedidn'tthinkfurtherthanthat
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6098
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Youjustwantedhimoutoftheclassroom?
2 A. Correct,asastart. Wedidn'tthinkfurtherthan
3 that. Itisnotthatwethought,"Wewillgethimoutof
4 theclassandthenwe'llshiphimout,"or"We'llgethim
5 outoftheclassroomandwedon'tcarewhathappensto
6 him." Wewereworriedwiththemostimmediatething,
7 becausethewayIthoughtofitwasthekidsnowknowthat
8 theschoolknowswhat'shappened,somethingwhichhasbeen
9 ahushedupthingforallthistime,theschoolknowsand
10 it'sbusinessasusual. Whatarethekidsgoingtothink?
11 It'sjustabsurd.
12
13 Q. IwillreadonfromthefollowingpartsofMrCooper's
14 statement:
15
16 Aftermeetingwiththeconcernedparents,
17 Idiscussedthematterimmediatelywith
18 RabbiGronerandtoaminorextentwith
19 RabbiAvrohomGlickandPinchasAsh. After
20 discussingthematteratlengthwithRabbi
21 Gronerandreviewingallofthealternative
22 coursesofaction,RabbiGronerdecidedto
23 actimmediatelyandremoveDavidKramer
24 fromtheclassasrequestedbytheparents.
25
26 RabbiGronerwasconcernedwhetheritwas
27 propertoconvictthesuspectwithouta
28 fairhearingandwhethertheschoolwould
29 beliableforunfairdismissal. Inviewof
30 thefactthatKramerwasarecentimport
31 andhadnotiestothecommunity,andin
32 viewofthefactthatthefourparents
33 concernedwerelongstandingandreputable
34 membersofthecommunity,Gronerresolved
35 thattheircomplaintshouldbebelievedand
36 Kramershouldgo.
37
38 A. Ihaveacoupleofcommentsthere. Iwanttoseewhat
39 happenedjustbefore. Isitpossibletogetahardcopy,
40 becauseIwanttogobacktothewordsthatwerewritten
41 andIcan'tseethem.
42
43 Q. CanMrWaksbegivenahardcopyofthestatement?
44 A. ThisisthefirsttimeIhaveseenthisstatementand
45 itisextremelyinterestingtome. First,I'mhappytosee
46 thatI'mnowoneofthe"longstanding,reputablemembersof
47 thecommunity"becausethat'sbeenchallengedinthelast
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6099
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 fouryears. ThisisastatementmadeIdon'tknowifhe
2 meantnow,thatI'mstillreputablenoworIwasreputable
3 then. Butanyway. Itwas11,wasit?
4
5 Q. Andthen12Iwasreading?
6 A. Yes,yes:
7
8 RabbiGronerwasconcernedwhetheritwas
9 propertoconvictthesuspectwithouta
10 fairhearing.
11
12 Allotherevidenceishehadalreadyadmittedstuff,so
13 Idon'tquiteunderstandwhatthatmeans. Idon't
14 understandwhatthatmeansatall. Andtheotherpart
15 Ihavealreadytoldyou,thatI'mnowoneofthefour
16 longstandingandreputablemembers.
17
18 Ialsoamsurprisedtohearthatearlierhecan't
19 rememberinparagraph4hedoesn'trememberhowhefirst
20 becameinvolved,butitwaseitherPinchasAsh,Rabbi
21 Gronerortheparentswhonotifiedhim. I'mshockedto
22 hearthatbecauseIspoketoRabbiGlickandIdon'tknow
23 whyRabbiGlickwouldn'thavebeeninvolved. Hewasthe
24 principalofthewholeboysschool. RabbiAshwasthe
25 principaloftheprimaryschool,whichitistrueRabbi
26 Kramerworkedfortheprimaryschool. ButIwouldbe
27 extremelysurprisedifRabbiGlickwasn'tinvolvedthere.
28 SoIdon'tunderstandhowthisslippedout. But,anyway.
29
30 Q. AccordingtoMrCooper:
31
32 RabbiGroneralsoadvisedthatprovision
33 shouldbemadeforthefourchildrentobe
34 counselledbyMrsSearby,anoutside
35 independentchildpsychologistuponwhomhe
36 regularlyrelied.
37
38 MrWaks,couldIaskyoudidtheschoolofferforyour
39 childrentobecounselledbyMrsSearby?
40 A. RabbiAshdidringmeandIthoughtaboutit,but
41 basedonthewaywethoughtinthosedaysandIhadaworry
42 thatifhegotintothatsortofthing,thepsychologist,
43 thatitmightmakeitworseandI,withmywife,wedecided
44 onacourseofaction,sincehehadcomeforward. Imean,
45 itwasmysonthatwastheonethatbrokethenews. So
46 Ialreadythoughtthathemightbeoutofitabitandby
47 continuallytalkingabouthim,whichiswhatIdid
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6100
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 adnauseamatthebeginning,tolethimgetitout,
2 Ithoughtthatmightbeenough. Ididn'tunderstandenough
3 aboutitinthosedays. Therewasanoffermade. It
4 wasn'tpursued. Itwasjust,"Wouldyouliketodoit?"
5 "No,Iwouldn'tliketodoit,"andIthinkImighthave
6 givenareasonandthatwasit. Therewasneveranymore
7 discussed.
8
9 Q. Thatofferwasmade,nonetheless?
10 A. Correct. WhenIthinkaboutitnow,apropercourse
11 ofactionbythesocialworkerorthepsychologistofthe
12 schoolwouldhavebeentosuggestthattheymetwithmeand
13 perhapsdiscusseditwithme. Itwasverystrangetothink
14 thataparentunderthesecircumstanceswouldimmediately
15 knowwhattodoandknowtherightcourseofaction.
16 Ithinkthereshouldhavebeensomeprovisionmadetospeak
17 totheparentaswell,notjustthechild. Anyway.
18
19 Q. Allright. Butinanyeventtheschooldidoffer
20 counsellingbut,leavingasidewhateverreason
21 A. Yes,itwasn'ttakenup.
22
23 Q. Iwilljustreadon:
24
25 IrelayedtheinstructiontoRabbiAshwho
26 carriedoutthedismissalofRabbiKramer.
27
28 ThenIreadfrom15:
29
30 IwasthencontactedbyDavidKramerwho
31 vigorouslyprotestedhisinnocenceandsaid
32 therewasawitchhuntagainsthim. Itold
33 himthatasfarastheschoolwasconcerned
34 inaccordancewithRabbiGroner's
35 instructionsthatwewerenotpreparedto
36 takeanyrisksinviewofthefactthat
37 fourparentshadcomplainedagainsthim.
38
39 Kramersaidthatitwasn'ttrueandthathe
40 wouldfighttheunfairdismissal. Igave
41 himachoice. Theschoolwaspreparedto
42 payhisticketbacktoIsraelifheleft
43 immediately,orhecouldstayandfightthe
44 schoolandbeartheconsequences. Inother
45 words,hecouldproveunfairdismissaland
46 getdamages,ortheallegationswouldbe
47 sustainedandhewouldgetnothingandface
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6101
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 legalaction.
2
3 Haveyouheardthatbefore,MrWaks?
4 A. Neverhearditbefore. Itanswersmyquestionof
5 suddenlynowwhythiswholethingisbroughtin. Inmy
6 opinion,it'sjustacompletethisnowgivesareasonwhy
7 theygothimoutofthecountry. Theywerejustdoingit
8 toprotectthemselves. Ithinkit'swonderful. I'msorry,
9 I'mextremelycynicalaboutthis. Neverhearditbefore,
10 no.
11
12 Q. NotwithstandingRabbiKramer'sprotestationsof
13 innocenceatthetime,youknow,don'tyou,MrWaks,that
14 whenhewasultimatelyextraditedbacktoAustraliaand
15 couldnolongerescapethecharges,hepleadedguilty,did
16 henot?
17 A. Correct. ButIdon'tevenunderstandthiswholething
18 becauseeverybodyknewthathehadalreadyadmittedhalf
19 thestuff. Howcanheprotestinfact,thisactually
20 backsupmycynicismjustnow. HowcanCooperreallywrite
21 thisnonsensewhentheguyhasadmitted? Whywouldn'the
22 justtellhimback,"Butyouadmitted." Hesaysit'sa
23 witchhunt,unfairdismissal. Whatunfairdismissal? "You
24 havealreadyadmittedeverythingtoGlick." Howcouldthis
25 wholestorypossiblybetrue,really?
26
27 Q. Wereyouawarethattheschoolhadpaidfor
28 A. Aftertheevent,yes. Ialsonoteherein17:
29
30 Hebeggedmetolethimstaytowinduphis
31 affairs,andtravelback
32
33 Andeverything. Ionlyfoundoutayearagothatinfact
34 peopleintheschool,highuppeople,hadhelpedhimsell
35 allhisthingsandeverythinglikethat,alldonesecretly.
36 Onlycertainpeopleknewaboutit. AsItoldyou,thebulk
37 oftheschoolcommunity,everybodywasshockedwhenhe
38 left. Butpeoplerelatedtoandinvolvedwiththehighup
39 peoplewereinvolvedinhelpinghimsellhiscar,sellhis
40 furniture,someofthemevenboughtthethingsthemselves.
41 That'swhysomeofthembecamesomalicioustowardsme.
42 TheymusthavethoughtIknewaboutitandIdidn'tknow
43 aboutitatthatstage. Ionlyfoundoutmuchlaterthat
44 someoftheworstoffenderstowardsmewerepeoplewhowere
45 involvedinactuallyhelpinghimdisposeofhisproperty
46 beforeheleft. Soherewenowhaveamagicalreasonwhy
47 theydidthis. Thiswasallconnectedwithunfair
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6102
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 dismissalandeverything. Isitjustbogglesthemind.
2
3 Q. Allright. Iwillleavethatstatementforthe
4 moment. Youweregoingoninyourstatementtotalkabout
5 theconvictionofKramer,butIwilltakethatpartofthe
6 statement. YousayKramerresidedinIsraelforseveral
7 yearsandhewasinfactthenhedidtraveltothe
8 UnitedStateswhereheabusedanotherchildandwas
9 convictedofthoseoffences,servedasentenceandthen
10 chargeswerelaidmuchlaterinAustralia. Hefought
11 extradition,asyouknow,andthenpleadedguiltytothe
12 offencesagainstyoursons,twoofyoursons,andwas
13 sentencedtoimprisonmentforthoseoffences.
14 A. Mmmhmm.
15
16 Q. Anditwouldappear,ifIgobacktoMrCooper's
17 statement,thatinfactafterheleftAustraliahetriedto
18 seekemploymentinnorthernIsraelasateacher. If
19 Icouldreadparagraph19ofMrCooper'sstatement:
20
21 Sometimelaterwereceivedacallfroma
22 schoolinnorthernIsraelenquiringabout
23 Kramerasaprospectiveteacherandwe
24 advisedthemnottoemployhimandthathe
25 hadleftMelbourneunderacloud.
26
27 Ifthatisinfactwhatoccurred,thatsomeonewastold
28 thatateacherhadleftunderacloudratherthantelling
29 anotherschoolthathehadbeenaccusedofsexually
30 assaultingchildrenandhehadmadeadmissions,whatdoyou
31 thinkaboutthat,MrWaks?
32 A. Again,themindboggles. IwasintouchIhadsome
33 relativesandthenafriendwhoIgotinvolvedintheplace
34 hewaslivinginIsrael. It'snotexactlynorthernIsrael.
35 Idon'tknowifhewasinvolvedeverasateacherthere.
36 Hewascertainlyinvolvedasamajorcharismaticfigurein
37 thesynagogueandinchargeoftheyouthgroupinthe
38 synagogue. Ieventuallyconvincedthisfriendofminewho
39 livedthereofwhathadhappenedhere. Heatthebeginning
40 couldn'tbelieveit. Hecouldn'tbelieveitbecausethe
41 guywassocharismatic. Hewastheguywhocalledpeople
42 uptothereadingoftheTorah. Hewasamajor,respected,
43 reputablefigurethere. Theycouldn'tbelieveit. This
44 guy,friendofmine,actuallytoldtherabbithereandthey
45 couldn'tbelieveiteitherbecausetheysaidiftherehad
46 beensomeproblemlikethistheywouldhavebeennotified
47 byAustralia. Forgetaboutaschoolringingup. Therewas
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6103
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 alsoalltheseotherthingsofyouthgroups,contactwith
2 kids;nothingwaseverdone. Ittookafewyearsbefore
3 theyactuallybelievedthatanythinghadhappened.
4
5It'smyimpressionnowthatthat'sonlybecausehe
6 actuallyoffendedandactuallyIknowonevictimofrape
7 ofhisinIsrael. SoIjustfindthisIfindit
8 offensive,thisthingthattheywererungupandtheytold
9 themandthenheleftandtheydidn'temployhimor
10 whatever. Itwasjustacompletelackofdoinganything
11 whilehewasthere.
12
13 Q. Wewillexplorethatlaterinthisinquiry,MrWaks.
14 AfterthetriptoIsraelthatyoutalkaboutandthen
15 speakingtoRabbiKramer'spsychologist,wasthatthelast
16 thingyouhadtodowithRabbiKrameruntilthe
17 investigationmuchlateron?
18 A. I'mnotcertain. No,it'snotthelasttime. No,it
19 definitelywasn'tthelasttime. Atonestageoneofhis
20 victimswasinthearmyinIsraelandhestartedtoget
21 thoughtsactuallyverymuchasMannydescribedyesterday
22 afterwardsinthearmyandeverythinglikethat. He
23 startedthinkingoftheideaofactuallyexposinghimin
24 Israelorgettinghimtogobacksomethinglikethat.
25
26 Soagainwehadeitherdiscussionsorspoketopeople.
27 Idon'trememberwhattheoutcomeofitwas. Ithinkin
28 theendhedidn'twanttoproceed. Buttherewas
29 definitelymoremovementandthought. Idon'tknowhowfar
30 itgot. Idon'trememberiftherewerephonecallsmadeto
31 people. Ithinkatonestagemaybethreatsweremadeto
32 Kramer,"Ifyoudon'tcomeforwardyourself"Idon't
33 rememberwhereitwent. Buttherewasdefinitelyanother
34 periodbetweenthosetwotimes. ButIdon'tknowwhatcame
35 ofit. Intheendnothingcameofit.
36
37 Q. IaskedyouearlieraboutRamonLewisandyouhavegiven
38 someevidencethatyouspoketosomepsychologists?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. Washethepsychologist?
42 A. Himandhiswife. Ididn'twanttosaytheirnames.
43 Theywereverygoodfamilyfriends,aswellasbeing
44 perfectpeopletospeakto:aprofessorofpsychologyanda
45 practisingpsychologist. Theywerejustreallyasshocked
46 asme,exceptthattheygavethe,"Okay,youreallycan't
47 takeitasnothing,"buttheyweren'tanymoreconvinced
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6104
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 thanIwasthatreallyanythinghadhappenedbecauseitwas
2 justsounbelievable. Thethingwas,"Isitokayevento
3 goandspeaktoRabbiGlick? Thisisjustsofarfetched.
4 Shallwedoanythingaboutit?" "Yes,youhavetogoand
5 dosomethingaboutit."
6
7 Q. Wearenowgoingtomoveontothepartofyour
8 evidencethatdealswithManny'sdisclosureofabuse.
9 Inotethetime.
10
11 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. Perhapsit'sanappropriate
12 timetogiveMrWaksabreak. Sowewilltakea15minute
13 breaknow.
14
15 SHORTADJOURNMENT
16
17 MSGERACE: YourHonour,justbeforegoingbackto
18 MrWaks,couldItender,please,document208,whichwas
19 thepolicestatementofProfessorRamonLewisreDavid
20 Kramerdated24May2011.
21
22 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: 226.
23
24 EXHIBIT#226POLICESTATEMENTOFPROFESSORRAMONLEWISRE
25 DAVIDKRAMERDATED24MAY2011
26
27 MSGERACE: CanItenderthedocumentattab78,whichis
28 thestatementofHarryCoopertothepolicedated
29 1December2011.
30
32
33 EXHIBIT#227POLICESTATEMENTOFHARRYCOOPERDATED
34 1DECEMBER2011
35
36 MSGERACE: CanItendertwodocumentsthatwerereferred
37 toyesterdayinevidence,onebeing32,extractsfrom
38 CommitteeofManagement;minutesoftheYeshivahCommittee
39 ofManagement. TheywerereferredtolateinMrWaks's
40 evidence.
41
43
44 EXHIBIT#228EXTRACTSFROMCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT;
45 MINUTESOFTHEYESHIVAHCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT
46
47 MSGERACE: Iwillleavetheremainingtender. MrWaks,
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6105
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 canInowaskyou,please,togiveyourevidencetothe
2 CommissionaboutManny'sdisclosureofhisabuseandask
3 youtoread,please,paragraphs30,31and32ofyour
4 statement?
5 A. InDecember1996,afterthecommencementofOperation
6 Paradox,acommunityawarenesscampaignagainstchild
7 sexualabuse,mysonMannytoldmethathehadbeen
8 sexuallyabusedbyamannamedDavidCyprysfor
9 approximatelyoneandahalfyearswhenhewasan
10 adolescent. IunderstandthatCypryswasapproximately
11 20yearsoldatthetime. Cypryswasasecurityguardat
12 theYeshivahCentreandthelocksmithattheYeshivah
13 College. Cypryswasalsoinvolvedinafterschool
14 activitieswiththechildren,includingmartialarts.
15 Cypryshadunfetteredaccesstotheentirepremisesofthe
16 YeshivahCollegeandYeshivahCentre.
17
18 Atsomestageinthe1990sItriedtorestrict
19 Cyprys'saccesstotheYeshivahpremisessothathewould
20 onlybeallowedtobethereduringprayertimes. Icannot
21 nowrecallifthiswasbeforeorafterMannytoldmethat
22 hehadbeenabusedbyCyprys. Idrewupadocumentfor
23 CyprystosignrestrictinghisaccesstotheYeshivah
24 premisesessentiallytoprayertimesonly,butCyprys
25 wouldn'tagreeanddidn'tsign. Irecallspeakingtoother
26 membersofthecommunity,includingRabbiGlick,aboutthis
27 matter. RabbiGlicktoldmethatRabbiGronerwasalso
28 againstsuchrestrictions. Nooneelsewaspreparedtodo
29 anythingandIwastoldthatCypryswasnowcured,so
30 Ileftitatthat.
31
32 AssoonasMannytoldmeabouttheabusewereported
33 ittothepolice. On17September1996Mannymadea
34 statementtothepoliceabouttheabuse. Cypryswas
35 subsequentlyinterviewed. Thepoliceinformedusthat
36 CyprysdeniedManny'sallegationsandthatitwasacaseof
37 Manny'swordagainstCyprys'sword,andthatthecasewould
38 remainopenuntilfurtherevidencecametolight. The
39 matterdidnotproceedanyfurtheratthistimebecauseof
40 alackofcorroboratingevidence.
41
42 Q. MrWaks,youspoketoRabbiGlickaboutrestricting
43 DavidCyprys'saccesswithinthepremises. Youcan't
44 recallwhetherthatwasbeforeorafterMannyspoketoyou
45 abouthavingbeenabusedby
46 A. Correct,Icannotrecall. ButIremembertheevents
47 veryclearly.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6106
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. Toexplorethepossibilitythatithappenedbeforeyou
3 spoketoMannyorbeforeMannyspoketoyou,didyouhave
4 anyotherinformationthatsuggestedDavidCyprysshouldbe
5 restrictedfromhavingaccesstotheYeshivahCentre?
6 A. Well,weknewabouttheearliercase. Everybodyknew
7 aboutthat. Whyitwouldhavesuddenlycomeup,Ijust
8 maybeittookayearortwo,maybeIdidn'tknowaboutit
9 instantlyatthetime,maybeit'swhenIheardaboutit.
10 It'sfeasiblethatitwasbeforethatitwouldhavebeen
11 related. Howmanyyearsbeforewastheearliercaseto
12 the
13
14 Q. In1992DavidCypryswasconvictedoftheindecent
15 assault,andin1996yoursondisclosedtoyouthat
16 A. Fouryears. Itcouldhavebeenthatweonlyheard
17 aboutittwoyearslater. Idon'trememberthetimeframes.
18 Pureconjecture.
19
20 Q. OneofthethingsweheardfromMannyWaksyesterday
21 wasofwhatareliefitwaswhenhedisclosedtoyouhis
22 abuseandyouimmediatelybelievedhim. Itwasadifferent
23 positionwithMannythanithadbeenwithyourearlier
24 children?
25 A. Exactly.
26
27 Q. Earlierdisclosures?
28 A. That'scorrect. Eventhoughpeoplethinkit's
29 wonderfulthatIbelievedhim,butunfortunatelyitwasthe
30 background,yes.
31
32 Q. Wasittheearliercomplaintsbyyourotherchildren?
33 A. Well,itwasn'tconscious,Idon'tthink. But,
34 Imean,itwasnolongeritjustwasn'tlikethefirst
35 time,especiallysinceIhadalreadyseenwhathadhappened
36 afterwards;nothing. BythatstageIthinkIwouldhave
37 alreadyknownthathewasoffendingthatKramerwas
38 alreadyoffendinginIsrael. So,youknow,itwasavery
39 differentsetofcircumstances.
40
41 Q. Whatwasitlikeforyouastheparenttohavetodeal
42 withManny'sdisclosure?
43 A. Thatwasworsethanthefirstcasebecauseitwasvery
44 bad. IfeltIhadfailedhim. InthefirstcaseIknew
45 thatthewholeprobablythewholeoftwoclasses,maybe
46 therewere60victims. HereIonlyreallyknewabouthim
47 whenhetoldme,andI'dfeltIhadfailedhim,yes.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6107
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. YouwereinvolvedinthedecisionwithMannyonthis
3 occasionafterhisdisclosuretoimmediatelygotothe
4 police?
5 A. Yes,itwasanobrainer. That'swhyIsaidbefore
6 thattheconceptofthiswasjustthetaboohadbeen
7 brokenandIdidn'tthinkaboutitasecondanymore.
8 Ijustknewithadtobedone. Therewasno...
9
10 Q. Wasthatinpartinformedagainbythisknowledgeof
11 whathadhappenedwhenKramerwentbacktoIsrael?
12 A. Thewholeyes,everything,andseeingthatnothing
13 hadbeendoneandpeoplehadalreadychangedtheirstories.
14 Isawhowithadbeendealtwith. Itwasn'tevena
15 consciousdecision. Itwasjustassoonashetoldme,
16 that'sit.
17
18 Q. Howdidyoureacttohearingthatthepoliceweren't
19 goingtoproceedfurther?
20 A. Iwasupset,butIunderstoodthem. Iknowhowthings
21 weredone. Ibelievedwordagainstwordwasaproblem.
22 Ijustdon'trememberifatthetimewewerethinkingit's
23 strangebecausethere'sbeenthisprevioushistory;Idon't
24 rememberhowweifweignoreditwhywewouldhave
25 ignoredit. Maybeweeventoldthemandtheysaidthey
26 can'tbringitin. Idon'tknowwhat. Itlookstomevery
27 strangenowwhyitwouldn'tbeabasisofgivingabitmore
28 weighttoonesidethantheother.
29
30 Q. CanIaskyouyousaythatCypryswasasecurityguard
31 attheYeshivahCentreandalocksmith. Wasthatsomething
32 youhadseen?
33 A. Yes,everyoneShomerSecuritywaswrittenupin
34 Yeshivah. Itwascommonknowledge.
35
36 Q. Didyouoftenseehimonthecentreornot?
37 A. Allthetime. Yes,hewasalwaysaround. Hehadthe
38 perfectalibi.
39
40 Q. Leavingasidethat,butIjustwanttogobacktowhat
41 yousawaroundthistime,andyoudescribingaround
42 September1996,andI'maskingyouabouteitherthatperiod
43 ortheyearsbefore,saybetween1992andnow,didyousee
44 DavidCyprysthereatthecentre? Didhelooklikehewas
45 standingsecurityoutsidethesynagogueorforthecentre?
46 A. No,notlikeinthesedays,notlikelater. Hewas
47 knownasthenotinthesamewayasalaterstagewhich
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6108
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Mannydescribedit. Hewasdoingtheyhadsecurityon
2 thepremises. Hewasthesecurity. ShomerSecurity,you
3 wouldseethestickersupeverywhere. Andalsothekeys.
4 Youjustknew. Hewasaroundallthetime.
5
6 Q. Didhehaveasortofroleasacaretakeralmost?
7 A. Itwasalmostthatsortoflevelofhimbeingthere.
8 Hewasthereallthetime,andespeciallyatoddhours,
9 yes.
10
11 Q. Allright. Ithinkyouthengooninyourstatement
12 todescribeManny'spublicstatementabouttheabuse,and
13 I'mgoingtoaskyounowtoreadonfromparagraph33,
14 please?
15 A. InJuly2011Mannymadeapublicstatementthathewas
16 sexualabusedasateenagerattheYeshivahCentrein
17 Melbourne.
18
19 BeforeMannymadethestatementhesaidtome,"I'm
20 thinkingofgoingpublic,whatdoyouthink?" Thefirst
21 thoughtthatIhadwasthatoneofmydaughterswasof
22 marriageableageandIwonderedifitmightaffecther
23 marriageprospects. HoweverIdidnotpreventMannyfrom
24 makingthestatementbecauseIknewhowimportantitwas
25 forhimtomakethestatementaftersomanyyears. Iwas
26 notgoingtostandinhisway.
27
28 AtthetimeIthoughtMannygoingpublicmeantjust
29 talkingtopeopleaboutit. Ididn'trealisehemeant
30 makinganofficialpublicstatementinthemediaand
31 everything. IfIhadknownhewasgoingtomakean
32 officialpublicstatementImayhaveexpressedmyconcerns
33 tohimmorestrongly. Eitherway,Iwouldnothavestopped
34 himfrommakingthestatement.
35
36 AfterManny'spublicstatementIexperienced
37 intimidationandisolationfromtheYeshivahcommunity.
38 Ifeltthatleaders,membersandmanythenfriendsfromthe
39 YeshivahCentrecommunitytalkednegativelyaboutmebehind
40 mybackandwereveryunapproachable. Asdetailedbelow,
41 IwasexcludedfromChabadcustoms,refusedspiritual
42 blessingsbyseniorYeshivahleaders,physicallyassaulted
43 inthesynagoguebyamemberoftheYeshivahcommunityand
44 IlostmanypeoplethatIconsideredtobegoodfriends.
45 IdetectedachangeinbehaviourtowardsmebyYeshivah
46 communitymembers. IamnolongerapartoftheYeshivah
47 community. However,Idonotfeelthatthiswasbychoice.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6109
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Iamhappytobeoutofitnow,butitwasdifficulttoget
2 tothatstage. DuringthetimewhenIwastryingtostaya
3 partoftheYeshivahCentrecommunityitwasvery
4 difficult. Thattimewasparticularlydifficultformy
5 wife,Haya,asshewasveryinvolvedinthesocialaspect
6 oftheYeshivahCentrecommunity.
7
8 AssoonasMannywentpublicIwasconcernedaboutthe
9 consequencesforourfamily. On11July2011Isentan
10 emailtoNechamaBendetattheYeshivahCentreshewas
11 thegeneralmanageratthetimewhichIaskedhertosend
12 ontoeveryonewhoshouldseeit. IaskedfortheYeshivah
13 leadershiptowritetothecommunitysayingthattheydo
14 notblameMannyforgoingpublic,thattherestofhis
15 familyhadnothingtodowithhimgoingpublicandnotto
16 blamethem,andthattheyreallydowantpeopletofully
17 cooperatewiththepolice. Ireinforcedthisrequestin
18 furtheremailsoverthenextfewdays,askingfor
19 unequivocalleadershiptotakethepressureoffmyfamily.
20 AlthoughIreceivedbriefresponsesfromDonWolf,the
21 communicationIhadaskedforwasnotsent.
22
23 Q. CanIaskyounowaboutthat. Didyousufferan
24 almostimmediateresponsefromthecommunityfollowing
25 Manny'spublicdisclosureorthearticleappearinginthe
26 newspaper?
27 A. Yes. ThearticleappearedIthinkcameoutThursday
28 nightorFriday. WewereinCanberra,wherehewasliving
29 atthetimebecausehehadwhat'scalledopsherenish,the
30 firsthaircutatage3,andwewerethereforthatSabbath.
31 Peopleimmediatelyconnectedthatwehadranawayforthat
32 Sabbathbecauseitwasinthepaper. Totallynonsense,but
33 anyway. SoIdidn'tcomebackuntiltheSundayorthe
34 Monday. AssoonasIwalkedintothesynagoguethefirst
35 timeIcouldjustfeelarrowsaimedatme,anditjustwent
36 onfromthereuntilthefirstSabbathwhenIwasback. So
37 thatmeansaweeklaterthatwasthefamoussermon.
38
39 Q. Iwilltakeyoutothesermoninaminute. Interms
40 ofyourexperienceofcomingback,letmeexplorethata
41 littlebitmore. Wasitsomethingpeoplesaidorwasit
42 somethingpeopledidn'tsay? Didyouhavefewerpeople
43 sayinghello?
44 A. Both. Ican'trememberanyparticularthings,but
45 peoplemadecommentstomebothactivelyandpassively,
46 yes.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6110
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Intermsofpassively,diditconsistofpeople
2 perhapsnotsayinggoodmorningor
3 A. Yes,notsayinggoodmorning,lookswhichcouldkill,
4 becausethiswasreallymajor. Itwasthefrontpageof
5 TheAgeanditwasTheAgeisnotit'sconsideredby
6 themanantiSemiticnewspaper,whichshallIgoon?
7
8 Q. Well...
9 A. It'sveryamusingbecausethat'sbeenusedasa
10 reason,"WhydidhegotoTheAge?"TheAgewasnogood.
11 TheJewishNewsisnogoodbecausethat'santireligious.
12 Soitreallyturnsout,"Thereisnonewspaperyoushould
13 havegoneto." Buteachthingwasusedateveryparticular
14 stagetoattack,tovilify.
15
16 Q. Didpeopletellyouorsay,"WhyTheAge?"
17 A. Theymayhavehadreasonsornot. Ithadbeen
18 antiIsraelatdifferenttimes. Whatever. Ireallydon't
19 know. AlreadyfromthatstageItrustedhisjudgmentin
20 havingspokentothatjournalist,andsincemeetingher
21 afterthatIknewshewasnotantiSemitic. Ihavenoidea
22 aboutthepaper. Ididn'tbuythenewspaper. Idon'tknow
23 it. Idon'treallyreadnewspapers. Iknowthatshe's
24 dealtveryhonourablyandverytruthfullythewholetime.
25 Sothatwasjustacompletefurphy.
26
27 Q. CanIaskforthedocumentattab44tobebroughtup
28 whichisreferenceYSV.0001.001.0425,whichisaseriesof
29 emails,andaskthatwegotopage3,abouthalfwaydown
30 thepage. Thiswasanemailthatwassentbyyouto
31 NechamaBendetandalsocc'dtoWaksML;isthatManny?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. AndScottDwyer;isthatthepolice?
35 A. Hewastheleadinvestigatoratthetime.
36
37 Q. Andtheheading,"Pleasemakesurethisemailgetsto
38 whoeveritshould". Youwrote:
39
40 Withaheavyheart,withsometrepidation,
41 andwithoutmywife,Haya's,knowledge
42 Iwritethisemail.
43
44 Whywasitimportanttoprefaceit"withoutyourwife,
45 Haya's,knowledge"?
46 A. BecauseasImyselfwasinvolvedandaswewere
47 holdingontostayingwithinthecommunity. Youknow,that
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6111
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 wasit. Soshedidn'twantmetodoanythingwhichwould
2 antagonisepeople. Ateverysinglestageitwaslikethat.
3 Idon'tblameher,butshewasholdingmebackallthe
4 time. WhateverIdid,shewasmuchmoreconservativethan
5 Iwasinthesematters.
6
7 Q. Wereyouconcernedthatinsendingthisemail,rather
8 thangettingassistance,youmightactuallygettrouble?
9 A. Whatdoyoumean"gettingassistance"?
10
11 Q. Youarewriting,areyounot,togetsomehelpfrom
12 theleadershiptosay,"Canyoumakepublicstatements
13 supportingwhatMannyhasdone"?
14 A. Yes,sure.
15
16 Q. Andyouprefaceyourfirstlinewith,"Withaheavy
17 heart,withsometrepidationandwithoutmywife,Haya's,
18 knowledge",andI'maskingyouarethoseexpressionsbeing
19 madebecauseyouhavesomeconcernthatbyevenraising
20 thisasanissuetheremightbefurtherconsequences?
21 A. Well,yes,especiallywhenyoureadwhatIwrote
22 insidetherebecauseI'mthreateningthem. I'mthreatening
23 themherethatiftheydon'tdosomethingIhaveasked
24 nicelyseveraltimes. Ithinkbefore,I'mnotquite
25 sure
26
27 Q. Arethereearlieremailsthatgobeforethis?
28 A. Maybenot. Isthisthefirstemail
29
30 Q. Itappearstobethefirstemailsentat1o'clockin
31 themorningonMonday,11July. Havealookatitandtell
32 meifthereissomeearlieremail?
33 A. Iwouldn'tknowoffhand.
34
35 Q. Letmereadittoyou. Itsays:
36
37 I'vehadenough. Frompastexperience(two
38 orthreetimesIbelieveinthelastfew
39 years),youknowwhatIdowhenI'vehad
40 enough,whenIhavebeenpublicly
41 maligned:Igopublicly,ferally,virally
42 ballisticand...tellthefactsasIknow
43 them. Inthepastitwasviaemailtothe
44 community,alwayswithplentyofwarning
45 andchancestostopit.
46
47 AsyouknoworatleastasInotifiedyou
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6112
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 atthetimeIhadnothingtodowiththe
2 restartingofthepoliceinvestigationinto
3 Kramer.
4
5 Letmestopyouthere. Wasitbeingsuggestedthatyouhad
6 reagitatedtheKramerinvestigation?
7 A. Yes. Wewereblamedthewholetimethrough,and
8 Ishouldpointouttoyouthatthewholetimethrough,
9 rightuntiltheendandevenwhatwasshowninyesterday's
10 thing,wewereconflated. Thatmeansifhemadea
11 statementtothepoliceitwasasifIhaddoneit. Ifhe
12 didsomething,Ididit. IfIdidanything,hedidit. On
13 theblogsitwasdonethatwayaswell. Sometimesitwas
14 writtenIwasrunninghimandsometimeshewasrunningme.
15 Nothingcouldbefurtherfromthetruth. Wespokeabout
16 things,buthehaddifferentwaysofapproachingthings
17 thanIdid.
18
19 Q. Butitwasbeingsaidtoyouorthatyouweresomehow
20 responsibleforwhateverMannywasdoing
21 A. That'sright.
22
23 Q. Andtheattitudewas,"IfoneWaksisdoingit"if
24 Mannywasdoingit,youweredoingit?
25 A. That'sright. Theworstofeachthing. Anythingbad
26 thatwasbeingdone,itwasbothofus.
27
28 Q. That'satleasthowyoufeltatthetimeintermsof
29 thewaythingswerecomingtoyou?
30 A. Itwasquiteopen. Itwasbeingitwasn'tparanoia.
31 Itwasopenlybeingsaidlikethat. Peoplewouldcomeup
32 tomeandsay,"WhydidyouwhydidManny? Whydidyou
33 gotothenewspaper?" Theywouldevensayitsometimeswhy
34 amIdoingit. Iwouldsay,"Ididn'tdoit. Hedidit.
35 Whyareyoucomingtomefor?",whichwassoridiculous
36 becausehewasn'tinthecommunityatallalreadyatthis
37 stage. Whyaretheycomingtomeforabouthimgoingto
38 thenewspaper?
39
40 Q. Iwillgoon. Soyouwrite:
41
42 Ihadnothingtodowithrestartingthe
43 policeinvestigationintoKramer. Idonot
44 knowwhodidstartit. Ireallydon't
45 care,exceptthatIthinkweallowethe
46 personadebtofgratitude. Ididnot
47 approachthepolice,theyapproachedme.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6113
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 ButoncethathappenedItoldyouopenly
2 thatIwouldcooperateandthatIhopedyou
3 wouldtoo,whichyouassuredmewasthe
4 case. Youhadapparentlyknownaboutthe
5 newinvestigationforsometimepreviously.
6
7 Doesthatsuggestyou'vehadsomeearliereither
8 discussionsoremailswhereyoutoldthemthatyoudidn't
9 gotothepolicebuttheyhadcometoyouandyouhad
10 cooperation?
11 A. Yes,Idefinitelytoldthemthatrightfrom
12 thebeginning. ThefirstthingIdidafterIgotoffthe
13 phonewiththepoliceIthinkwastoringthembecause
14 Iknewwhatwasgoingtohappen. NowwhenIseethenext
15 line,"Youhaven'tdonewhatyousaid",thereare
16 definitelyphoneconversationsandtheremayhavebeensome
17 moreemails. ButitisobviousfromherethatIhavehada
18 series,notjustone,andtheyhaven'tdonewhatIhave
19 asked. Itisquiteobviousfromhere. That'stheway
20 Irememberit. Ididn'tgoherejustcomingoutofthe
21 bluefiring,youknow,missilesthefirstthing. Itwasn't
22 likethat.
23
24 Q. AnddidIunderstandyourevidencethentobethatas
25 soonasyoumadeapolicestatementinthematterofKramer
26 yourangthemanagementatYeshivah?
27 A. Instantly,yes.
28
29 Q. Doyouknowwhoyouspoketo?
30 A. NechamaBendet.
31
32 Q. Andthisisanemailthenyousenttoher,andyou
33 say:
34
35 Youhaven'tdonewhatyousaid. Whatever
36 youmaytellthemedia,thepoliceor
37 others,Iknowyouarenotcooperatingin
38 anymeaningfulway. Iknowthatonly
39 probablylessthan50percentofkidswho
40 shouldhavereceivedthepoliceletterdid.
41 Iknowthisbyspeakingtopeopleinthe
42 community. Kidsintheaffectedgroupall
43
knowthisalso.
A.
Can I?
44
45
Q.
Yes.
46
A.
Thiswasmuchlater now.
This wasn't atthebeginning
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6114
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 atall. Ifitisaftertheletter,thatmeansthat's
2 severalmonthsafterthethingstarted. Thatmeansthere
3 mustbetonnesofemails. Thisisnotthefirstemail
4 betweenmeandthemtodowithcomingforward. Absolutely
5 not. There'slotsofthem.
6
7 Q. MaybeIcanexplainitthisway. Doyouseemto
8 recalltherebeingapolicenotificationthatwassentto
9 thecommunityseekingassistance?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Thatwasemailedoutbytheschooltopersonswho
13 mightberelevanttothatinvestigation?
14 A. No. Theywereonlyapparentlyrestrictingit
15 theoreticallyonlytoparentsthathadkidsinthose
16 classes. Buteventhatwasn'tdone. Iknewforsureit
17 hadn'tbeendone. Iknewplentyofkidsandonlyprobably
18 50percentofthemonlyreceivedemails. Thatmeansthey
19 weretheoreticallyhelpingthepolice. That'swhyIsay
20 thisstatement;that'swhyIknowforsure. Iknewone
21 personinparticularthatwasateacherattheschool,and
22 hewasinthatclassandhedidn'treceiveanemail,and
23 someothersaswell. That'soneparticularperson. They
24 don'thaveaproblemfindingoutwhereheisoranything,
25 andhedidn'treceiveanything,anycommunication. It's
26 beenlikethatthewholetimethrough.
27
28 Thatwasjustoneexample. Therewereotherexamples.
29 Itgoesbacktothestatementitself. Whenthestatement
30 cameoutandIfirstsawitIthinkIwasshownbeforeit
31 wassentbutafteritwasalreadyfinalised. Andinfact
32 Ishouldgobackevenonestepfurtherbecauseforthe
33 purposesoftheinquiryit'sveryinteresting.
34
35 WhenIknewtheyweregoingtosendoutaletter
36 Iwarnedthepolicethattheyshouldaccompanytheletter
37 withareligiousverdictfromrabbis,areligiousruling
38 fromagroupofseriousseniorrabbis,pointingoutthat
39 thewholethingofmesirahdoesnotapplyinthissituation
40 andthatpeopleshouldgoforwardandshouldcooperate.
41 AndIwastoldthattheygaveittothepolicelegal
42 departmentandthatitwasvetoedasthatwouldbe
43 consideredsolicitingorwhateverthewordwouldbethat
44 theywouldbetryingtoinfluencewitnessesorsomething
45 likethat.
46
47 AndIknewthatifitwentoutwithoutsomesortof
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6115
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 verynotjusttheRabbiTelsnersayingsomething;it
2 wouldhavetobemorethanthateven. Iwantedittobeat
3 averytoplevel,likeagroupofrabbisfromAmericaor
4 whatever,tosaythatitdidn'tapplyhereandIknewthat
5 wouldbetheonlywaythatthatletterwouldbemeaningful.
6 That'sthebackgroundtoit. Thepolice,Icouldn'tget
7 themtounderstandthatculturallyitwasn'tgoingtowork.
8
9Then,secondofall,whenI'mtalkingabout
10 cooperationandtheywouldhaveknownthisaswellas
11 Idid,theyknewthatsendingoutalettersothat'sbeen
12 myclaimthewholewaythrough. Thatmeanssayingthe
13 rightwords,ifthesubtextissomethingdifferent,means
14 nothing. Itismeaningless. Youcansayalltheright
15 words,butifthesubtextisstillthereandlefttobe
16 thereitwon'tmatterwhatyousay.
17
18 Thesecondthingwaswiththeletteritself. When
19 IsawtheletterthefirstthingIdidwasringthecopand
20 tellhim,"Thisisridiculous. Iknowwhat'sgoingto
21 happenhere." Becauseitwaswritten"YeshivahCentre
22 Elsternwick". Everybodythatknowsitdoesnotthinkof
23 YeshivahCentreElsternwick. Withinafewminutesafter
24 thethinghadbeenreceivedbypeopleIstartedhearing
25 chatter,orontheinternetorpeopleringingsaying,"It
26 mustbeAdass. Itmustbeadifferentschoolbecause
27 YeshivahCentreisnotinElsternwickandthereisanother
28 schoolwhichisinElsternwick. Sotheymusthavegotit
29 mixedup. Itisnotthatschool. ItisnotYeshivah."
30
31 Thecopwhenheheardthis,hebangedIcouldhear
32 himthumpingonthetableinhisoffice. Hesaid,
33 "Ishowedittothemtoreadthroughandseeiftherewere
34 anyerrors." Itisimpossibleitwasanoversight. Itis
35 justimpossible. Anybodywhoreadsitandsees"Yeshivah
36 CentreElsternwick",it'snotlikeStKildaandEast
37 StKildaorStKildaEast. Itisadifferentsuburb.
38 NobodythinksofitasYeshivahCentreElsternwick. Sohe
39 understoodrightfromthebeginningalsothattheywere
40 skatingonthethinnestofice.
41
42 Q. MrWaks
43 A. Sorry.
44
45 Q. CanIaskforthedocumentattab36A,document
46 IND.0214.001.0172,justtoputincontexttheemailsof
47 July2011thatIhadtakenyouto. I'mgoingtohighlight
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6116
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 someofthethingsthatappearedontheevidenceofthe
2 personbeforehand.
3 A. Buttheremustbesomethingwrongherewiththedates
4 becauseIdon'tunderstandhowthatcouldhavebeenJuly.
5
6 Q. Letmeassist.
7 A. Sorry,okay. Sorry.
8
9 Q. Thisweunderstandtobethepublicassistance
10 requestedbyVictorianpolicewhichwasissuedinJune
11 2011. Youwillseetherethesecondlinereferstothe
12 YeshivahCollegeinElsternwick. Doyouseethat?
13 A. Yes. Differentplace. Differentschool.
14
15 Q. Yes,butthat'stheevidence
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Yousawthisnoticeandwereconcernedthatpeople
19 wouldnotbeabletorespondadequatelybecauseYeshivah
20 Collegewasbeingmisdescribed?
21 A. No. Iftheysentittothestudentstheywouldknow
22 whoitwas. ThiswasaPRjobfortheoutside. Anybody
23 thatsawthismightthinkanditisinfactwhat
24 happened,theywouldthinkitwasadifferentschool. This
25 wouldeventuallybecomepublic,whichitdid.
26
27 Q. Shortlyafterthisdocumentwasissuedbythepolicea
28 witnesstobeknownas[AVB]intheseproceedingsissuedan
29 emailtomembersofthecommunity. CanIaskfordocument
30 36,please,YSV.0001.001.0512_R. That'sanemailto
31 membersofthecommunitywhichwitness[AVB]issuedto
32 variouspeopleacopyofthepolicenoticeandanother
33 documentwhichIwilltakeyouto. Wereyouarecipientof
34 thisemail?
35 A. Idon'tremember.
36
37 Q. Sothoseeventsappeartopredatethoseemails. Then
38 canIaskyoutohavealookatdocument37,
39 YSV.0001.001.0338. ThisisaletteronYeshivahCollege
40 prepareddated21June2011. Itsaid,"Dearparents." It
41 says:
42
43 Asyoumaybeaware,theVictorianPolice
44 arecurrentlyinvestigatingsexualassaults
45 thatmayhavebeencommittedinYeshivah
46 College1822yearsagobyapaststaff
47 member,between1989and1993.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6117
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Atthetime,backin2011,didyoueverseethisletter?
3 A. Ijustdon'tremember. Ifitbecomesimportant,
4 Iwillbeabletofinditonmycomputer. Butnotonthe
5 spot. Ijustdon'tremember. Thereweresomanyletters.
6
7 Q. Rightnowlookingatit,itdoesn'tringabell?
8 A. "Structuralmeasuressuchasthat",yes,itringsa
9 bell,itringsabell. Icouldhavereceivedit. Iwas
10 focusingonadifferentwordthere,theword"thatmayhave
11 beencommitted",whichtheyknewfullwellithadbeen
12 committed. Whyaretheywriting"may"?
13
14 Q. Wereyouawarein2011,backatthattime,thatthe
15 RabbinicalCouncilhadissuedaresolutionwhichhadbeen
16 publishedexpresslydisavowingtheapplicationofmesirah
17 toreportsofchildabuse?
18 A. Itwaswrittenaswhatever. That'showItreatedit,
19 aswhatever.
20
21 Q. Butwereyouawarethenthatithadbeenissued?
22 A. Idon'tremember. Itwasn'tthatwellpublicised. It
23 wasn'tserious.
24
25 Q. TheRabbinicalCouncilofVictoriaisnotYeshivah
26 College,isit?
27 A. That'sright. Anditisalsonotparticularlywidely
28 respectedwithintheultraOrthodoxcommunity.
29
30 Q. DoestheultraOrthodoxcommunitystandasideorstand
31 apartfromotherJewishcommunityorganisations?
32 A. Correct. Yeshivahwasn'tevenaffiliatedasfaras
33 notwithwiththeJCCV. Theydostandapart,yes,both
34 YeshivahandAdass. ThetwoultraOrthodoxonesdostand
35 apart.
36
37 Q. JustsothatIunderstandyourevidence,atthetime
38 ofthoselateremailsthatIhavetakenyoutoinJuly,and
39 Iwillgettothem,doyourememberornotwhetheryouhad
40 seentheRabbinicalCouncilofVictoria'sresolutionon
41 childabuse?
42 A. Ijustdon'tremember.
43
44 Q. IfIcanassist,itwouldappeartheevidencesuggests
45 thatMannyWaks's,yourson's,articleinTheAgeappeared
46 on8July2011?
47 A. Thedatescouldn'tberight. Itmustbeamistake.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6118
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. Thenyouremails
3 A. Actually,sorry. Iunderstandwhythatcouldbe
4 right,becausehisstatementonlycameoutwellafterthe
5 investigationhadstarted. Sorry,yes,Irealisenowmy
6 mistake. I'msorry. Everything'sprobablyright. His
7 publicstatement,thepolicethingcameoutsoonafter
8 evenbeforethatorafter. Sorry,I'vebeenveryconfused.
9 I'msorryforcausingyoutroublethere.
10
11 Q. No,that'sokay.
12 A. TheinvestigationstartedinaboutAprilorsomething
13 likethat. Soallmystuffwiththemwentonaperiod
14 betweenAprilandJuneorJuly,wheneverwasthis. The
15 publicstatementnowwastakingittoanewlevel. Iknew
16 assoonasevenjusttheinvestigationstartedthatthere
17 wasgoingtobetrouble. Obviouslyhimgoingpublic
18 broughtthattroubletoawholenewlevel. That'sright.
19
20 Q. SoIcanputitintocontextyourevidenceabout
21 havingmadeastatementtothepoliceandtellingNechama
22 Bendetaboutit,thatwasbeforeyoubelievethe
23 publicationofMannyWaks's
24 A. Yes,itdefinitelywas. Itwasthesameday. Minutes
25 later. AssoonasIgotoffthephonewiththepolice.
26
27 Q. IfIcanthencomebacktotheemail. Let'sdealwith
28 theemailswehavehereandifinthemeantimesomething
29 elsesurfaceswewilldealwiththat. Iwasreadingfrom
30 thethirdparagraph,IthinkIhavegottothat,andthen
31 Iwillgotothefourth:
32
33 Youhaven'tdonewhatyousaid. Whatever
34 youmaytellthemedia,thepoliceor
35 othersIknowyouarenotcooperatingin
36 anymeaningfulway. Iknowthatonly
37 probablylessthan50percentofkidswho
38 shouldhavereceivedthepoliceletterdid.
39 Iknowthisbyspeakingtopeopleinthe
40 community.
41
42 Itakeitfromthatthat,one,youwereawarethatthe
43 schoolhadsentoutaletter?
44 A. Yes,becauseacoupleofmykidshadreceivedletters
45 athomeanditwasCOme.
46
47 Q. Careofyou?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6119
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Athome?
3
A.
Yes.
4
5
Q.
And,secondly, you had been speaking to othersinthe
6
7 communityabouttheletter?
8 A. Mmmhmm.
9
10 Q. Andweresomeofthosepeoplepeopleyoubelievehad
11 kidsintheaffectedagegroupand
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. Theyweretellingyouthattheyhadnotreceivedthe
15 correspondence?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Whodidyouunderstandtheletterwastogoto?
19 A. IthoughtitwasgoingIdon'trememberifIthought
20 thatitwasgoingtotheparentsortothekidsorboth.
21 Ijustdon'tremember. ButIrememberhavingdiscussedit
22 withthepoliceatthetime,andIofferedmyhelptogo
23 throughthelistswiththem. Butagainthatwasn'ttaken
24 upunfortunately. Ithoughtmaybeitwasprivacyor
25 whatever. ButIknewthatifitwasn'tdonethatway,
26 someonewhoknewwhatwasgoingonwouldknowwhoshouldbe
27 included,Iknewitwouldbedonethewrongway. Andit
28 definitelywasdonethewrongway. Ibelievethat
29 afterwardsitallbecameamisunderstanding;thattheywere
30 reallycooperating,theyjusthadn'tunderstoodexactly
31 whatthepolicewereaskingfor. Yeah,right.
32
33 Q. Wewillexaminethatinthisinquiry. IfIcancome
34 backtoyouremail:
35
36 Youhaveneverseenfittosenda
37 meaningfulemailtothegeneralYeshivah
38 populationorpostsomethingonyour
39 websiteorsendaphysicallettersignedby
40 DonWolf,RabbiTelsneretceterawhichhas
41 beenthenormalprocedureinotherserious,
42 importantmatters. Ratherthecurrent
43 principal,whowasakidhimselfatthe
44 timeofsomeoftheoffences,andisreally
45 notyetamajorplayerinYeshivahaffairs,
46 "fluff"somehavetermedit,wasleftto
47 communicateornot.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6120
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 AtthetimeyousentthisemailtheYeshivahCentrehada
3 website,didit?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Diditfromtimetotime,asfarasyouwereaware,
7 postnoticesonthatwebsite?
8 A. Postednoticesandsentoutemailsonaveryregular
9 basis. Wheneverthere'sanythingimportanttheysendout
10 anemail.
11
12 Q. Towhoeverwasontheiremaildatabase?
13 A. Yes. Well,youcouldsubscribetodifferentareas,
14 andsomethinglikethisIwouldhaveassumedshould
15 betheyknewwhotosendit. Theyhadadatabaseand
16 theyhadeverythingtheyneeded.
17
18 Q. CanIaskyoujusttoassistmetounderstandthis?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. Didtheysendnotices,say,abouteventsthatwere
22 happeningattheYeshivahCentre?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Didtheysendeventsaboutcommunityannouncements
26 likebirths,deaths,marriages?
27 A. Correct,yes.
28
29 Q. Changes,activitiesthatwereavailable;aretheythe
30 sortsofemailsthatweresentoutbytheYeshivahCentre?
31 A. Exactly,aswellasspecialthings.
32
33 Q. Whenyoureferto"specialthings"whatareyou
34 describingthere?
35 A. Well,Idon'tknow. "Aspecialpersoniscomingfrom
36 overseas. Wearegoingtobehavingsuchandsucha
37 meeting,"orthere'saspecialdinnerbeingcalledfor
38 something;anythingoutoftheordinary. Sotherewouldbe
39 ordinarythings,youknow,theregularthingswithinthe
40 community. Therewouldbethingstheyhadtheirlists
41 dividedintogeneralandthereweredifferentschoollists
42 thatrelatedtothedifferenttherewereconsideredtobe
43 fourschools,really. Seniorandjunioroftheboys;
44 seniorandjuniorofthegirls. Thenthere'sthesynagogue
45 andthegeneralcommunity. Sotheremighthavebeenfive
46 orsixorsevenoreightor10differentliststhatyou
47 couldbeticking. Iwouldhaveexpectedthislettertogo
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6121
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 toperhapsevenallthelistsorcertainlyalargenumber
2 ofthoselists.
3
4 Q. SowastheYeshivahemailsystemonethatwasusedas
5 farasyouwereawaretokeepmembersofthecommunity
6 informedaboutwhatwashappeningwithinthecommunityboth
7 ondaytodayeventsandsignificantorotherevents?
8 A. 100percent.
9
10 Q. Youreferhereto"sendingaphysicallettersignedby
11 DonWolf,RabbiTelsner,etceterawhichhasbeennormal
12 procedureinotherseriousimportantmatters". Whatare
13 youreferringtothereinthisemail?
14 A. Fundraising. Fundraising.
15
16 Q. Soiftherewasafundraisingdrivewouldaletter
17 A. That'sright. Ifthere'sgoingtobeabigdinneron.
18 Anythingreallyimportant. Notsexualabuse.
19
20 Q. Butwasitthecaseinyourexperienceasin2011that
21 theywouldsendaletteriftherewasafundraisingevent
22 anditwouldbesignedbythechairman,theheadrabbior
23 whoeverelsewasinvolvedintheactivityasameansof
24 notifyingthecommunityastowhatwashappening
25 A. Yes,andbuildingupit'simportance,showingthe
26 relativeimportanceofthething;exactly. Soifthe
27 seniorguyssignedititisveryimportant. Ifyouleave
28 ittoanunknowntosignititain'tthatimportant. The
29 subtext,asImentionedbefore,isquiteclear.
30
31 Q. Areyouexpressinghereyourcriticismofthefact
32 thatmeanswhichhadbeenadoptedintheposttonotifythe
33 communityofimportantdevelopmentswerenotbeingtakenby
34 theschoolinresponsetothepoliceinvestigation?
35 A. Correct.
36
37 Q. Turnoverthepage:
38
39 AstheKramerinvestigationgotgoing,
40 Ibelievemanyothernamescameup,sothat
41 thepolicearenowlookingdownmanydark
42 avenues. Atsomestage,mysonMenahemwas
43 intouchwiththepolice.
44
45 MenahemisManny?
46 A. (Witnessnods)
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6122
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q.
2
WhereagainIbelievehewasinfactcontacted
3
bythem,healsocooperatedfully. Ataneven
4
laterstage,inordertobringothervictims
5
forwardtohelpthepolicethemselves,and
6
preventnewvictimsheconsideredthe
7
possibilityofgoingpublic. Hediscussedthis
8
withme.
9
Icautionedhimastothetypeofflakhewould
10
encounter. Butbecauseofthepublicgoodthat
11
wouldbeservedandthemoral
12
dutyhefeltIdidnotsay,"No,donotdo
13
it." Heandhiswifemadethedecision.
14
Theformofgoingpublicwasnotdiscussed.
15
Itellyouallthisnottodistancemyself
16
fromhisdecision,butjustsothefacts
17
areclear. Ibelievethatpartofhis
18
decisionwasspurredonbyhisperception
19
ofYeshivah'sinaction(andworse,as
20
above)thistimearound,manyyearsafter
21
thefirstinactions(andworse).
22
23 Sowereyoutheretryingtoletthemanagementknowthat,
24 whilstyouhaddiscussedMannygoingpublic,youdidnot
25 knowthewayinwhichhewasgoingtodoit?
26 A. Yes. Eitherinpreviousthiswasasummaryof
27 thingsthatIdiscussedwiththemeitheronthephoneorin
28 otheremails,justsettingitalloutproperlyforthem,
29 remindingthemthatIdidn'tsendhimtogoforward,
30 Ididn'tknowhewasgoingtogoforwardinthewaythathe
31 did,butjustsettingitoutagain.
32
33 Q. Ithinkyoureferredearliertosomeevidencethat
34 peopleweretalkingorthescuttlebuttwasthatyouhad
35 gonetoCanberratoescapethepublication. Youthengoon
36 toexplain:
37
38 WehavebeeninCanberrawithMenahemand
39 someofthefamiliesforthelastfewdays
40 fortheopsherenish
41
42 Andthat'sthehaircutthatyoureferredto?
43 A. Festiveevent. Festive,ritualevent,yes.
44
45 Q.
46 ...ofhisyoungestchild,&returned
47 tonight.Severalthingshavenowcometomy
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6123
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 knowledge:Onvariousblogs,iambeing
2 accusedbysomewriters(inastyle
3 suspiciouslysimilartosomecommembers)
4 ofbeinginvolvedinsomewaywithgoingto
5 theage,tryingtobringdownyeshiva,
6 everyoneinthecommunitythinksthisetc.
7 menahemisbeingblastedforitbysome,
8 wheretheyimputetohimunknownmotives,
9 accusehimofdistortionetc.Theicingon
10 thecakewasarelativeofsomeyeshiva
11 mainplayerswritingfilthagainstme&
12 myfamilyonatleast2blogsintheus
13
14 Youfoundoutwhohewasandthenthreatenedlegalaction.
15 HeapologisedtoMenahemandhadthemremoved,butnot
16 beforethemhavingbeenviewedbythousandsofpeople.
17 Iaskyouaboutthisbecausethisissomeevidencethat
18 appearstocomeforwardinthisinquiryinparticularin
19 thestatementsproduced. Inthewakeofthepolice
20 investigation,inthewakeofManny'spublicationorthe
21 publicationofthearticleinTheAgeon8Julydidyou
22 observethatanumberofblogsorJewishblogswerewidely
23 criticalofManny'sstanceandthenattackingyouandyour
24 familyintheprocess?
25 A. Yes. Theanswertothequestionisyes. Thatwasall
26 understoodthatthatwasgoingtohappen. Iwasn'tquite
27 preparedfortheviciousnessofitandthefilthofitand
28 theeverythingofit. Itwasabsolutelypredictableand
29 predictedbecause,asyoucansee,itwaspredicted. What
30 canItellyou?
31
32 Thiswasallunexceptional. Thethingtomewasit
33 wasviewedbyasI'vesaid,whateverhappensheretoday
34 isbeingviewedoverseasandit'sgoingtohave
35 ramificationsoverseas. Iknowthat'snotyourbrief,but
36 Icanassureyouthatthefindingshereinrelationtothis
37 communityaregoingtohavehopefullypositive
38 ramificationsoverseasaswell;becausethecommunitiesare
39 similar,theyaretiedtogether. Itwillnotonlybethe
40 Chabadcommunitythatwillbeinfluenced. Itwillbethe
41 widerultraOrthodoxcommunityintheworld,especiallythe
42 USA,butIsraelaswell. Andthat'sthewayitworkshere.
43
44 Q. Someoftheseattacks,asweheardfromManny,werein
45 factverypersonalaboutfamilyandwhatthefamilyhad
46 doneornotdone?
47 A. Yes. It'sjust
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6124
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. AndyouwereputtingthemanagementoftheYeshivah
3 Centreonnoticeofwhatwasactuallyhappeningtoyouin
4 thecommunity;isthatpartofthepurposeofthisemail?
5 A. It'sputtingthemonnoticeandstillagainbegging
6 themtodosomethingtohelpme. Theycouldhavedoneit
7 likethat;thatmeanscomingattherightlevelwiththe
8 rightbackgroundsaying,"Stopthis." Everybodywouldhave
9 knowniftheywerereallycooperatingwiththepolice,and
10 everybodywouldhavechanged. Ifitbecame,"That'sthe
11 thingtodoandyouarenotgoingtobeshunnedbygoing
12 forwardandhelping,"that'swhatwouldhavebeendone.
13 Allright. Idon'twanttopreemptI'mabit
14
15 Q. ButifIcanaskyouaboutthat. Yousaiditcould
16 havebeenstoppedinasecond.
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. WhatdoyouthinkYeshivahCentreshouldhavedone
20 whentheybecameawareofwhatwashappeningontheseblogs
21 andinthecommunityandtoyouandtoManny?
22 A. Atthatstage,iftheywouldhavealreadydonewhat
23 I'msayingthen,theyknewwhosomeofthepeoplewere,
24 theywouldhavestoppedthem. First,theyhadtodothe
25 firstthing. Theyfirsthadtocomeforwardinapositive
26 wayandactuallyputforward,"Nowwereallymeanit. We
27 havesaidituntilnowthatyoushouldcooperate. Nowwe
28 reallymeanit. Weknowthatyouknowwedidn'tmeanit
29 untilnow. Butnowwereallydo. Startcooperating",and
30 theyshouldbedoingperipheralthingswherepeoplewould
31 understandthattheymeantitseriously. Thatmeans
32 Idon'twanttopreempt
33
34 Q. Letmetakeyoutothissectionofyouremailwhere
35 yourequestanumberofthingsbedonebythecommunity.
36 Theyareasfollows:
37
38 Irequestaproperemailtogoouttoall
39 theyeshivamailinglist,letterstothose
40 whodon'thaveemail,apostingonyour
41 website,onthenoticeboardetc.The
42 contentwillincludethatyoudonotblame
43 thevictim,menahem,forgoingpublic,even
44 ifyouareunhappywiththisstep.Thatthe
45 restofthefamilyhavenothingtodowith
46 himgoingpublicsoyoudon'tblamethem.
47 Thatyoureallydowantpeopletofully
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6125
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 cooperatewiththepolice,inawaythatis
2 believablethatyoumeanit.Ihopei
3 haven'tleftanythingout.Iwouldexpect
4 ustoagreeonthecontentbeforeyousend
5 it,sothattherearenomisunderstandings.
6
7 A. Icouldhavewrittenthismyselfeven.
8
9 Q. Youdid.
10 A. WhatcanItellyou?
11
12 Q. MrWaks,isthisnotyourexhortationtothecommittee
13 andtotheleadershiptogotothewidercommunityandsay,
14 "Please,tellthemtostopblamingthevictimandthe
15 family"?
16 A. 100percent. It'sexactlywhatitis. Everyword
17 hereIstandbynowandIsaytoyouthatifitwouldhave
18 beendonetheYeshivahatleastwouldn'tbesittinghere
19 today,ifitwouldhavebeendoneproperly.
20
21 Q. Andthatwastheemailyousenton11July2011,and
22 youendwiththis:
23
24 Iwillwait48hours.Ifthematterisnot
25 resolved,theniwillgopublicmyself,no
26 holdsbarred,subjecttotheconstraintsof
27 theinvestigation,soasnottojeopardise
28 anything.Iamnotgoingtostandby&
29 watchavictim&hisfamily(mine)being
30 victimisedagain.Ifiamforcedtogo
31 public,youwillhavenoonetoblame
32 butyourselves,again.Idohopeyou
33 realisehowthisisallbeingperceivedin
34 thewiderjewish&nonjewishcommunity.
35 Thesupportmenahemhasreceivedhasbeen
36 overwhelming,&wehavealsoreceived
37 numerouscommunications.Infact,even
38 membersoftheyeshivacommunity,inthe
39 under40agebracket,arelargely
40 supportiveofmenahem.Thesilencefromthe
41 oldergroupinyeshiva,however,hasbeen
42 deafening(withsomeexceptions),&i
43 attributethisinlargemeasureto
44 yeshiva'sofficialsilence.Icanonly
45 imaginehowallthiswilllookifigo
46 publicalso.
47 hopingforaspeedy&sensibleresolution,
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6126
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 zephaniahwaks.
2
3 A. Prophetic,wasn'tthat? "Icanonlyimaginehowthis
4 willalllookifIgopublicalso." Well,hereweare,and
5 howdoesitlook?
6
7 Q. CanItakeyounowtotheresponsefromMrWolfon
8 12Julyat11.17whichisatthetopofpage3inthat
9 email. ThatwasthefirstresponseyoureceivedfromDon
10 Wolf:
11
12 DearZephaniah,
13 Weunderstandthattheallegationsare
14 beinginvestigatedbyVictoriaPoliceand
15 theschooliscooperatingfully
16 withthePolice.
17
18 IncircumstanceswherethePolice
19 investigationisinprogress,itis
20 inappropriatefortheCollegetocomment
21 furtheratthistime.
22
23 A. Sothisisinresponsetomyemail?
24
25 Q. Itappearsso. I'maskingyou. Youremailwassent
26 onMonday,11July2011at1.01am. Twodayslater,
27 Tuesday12July2011at11.17amsorry,onedaylater
28 youreceivedthisresponsewiththesamesubjectheading,
29 "Pleasemakesurethisemailgetstowhoeveritshould".
30 A. Ican'tseetheemail. Thebottomemailthere,that's
31 theemailwehavebeendealingwithnow?
32
33 Q. That'stheemailwehavebeenreading,yes.
34 A. That'sfine. Sohehasansweredmethere. That's
35 fine. That'sjustridiculous,obviously. That'sjust
36
37 Q. Wereyouhappywiththatresponse?
38 A. Ofcoursenot. "Weunderstandthattheallegations
39 arebeinginvestigated." Okay,Iunderstandthat. "The
40 schooliscooperatingfully." Well,Ijusttoldthemthat
41 theyarenot. "Sowhyareyouansweringmethat?
42 ObviouslyIdon'tagreewithyou. Ifthat'stheanswer,
43 forgetit." Thentheyjustsay,"Itisinappropriateto
44 comment." Fine. Whatever. Itwasanonanswer.
45
46 Q. SocanItakeyouthentowhatappearstobeanemail
47 sentbyyouthesameday,afewhourslater,toDonWolf,
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6127
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 NechamaBendetandScottDwyer. ThiswasonTuesday,
2 12July2011. Thatisatpage2,please. Ifwecould
3 bringthatupalittlebit. Thisisyourresponse:
4
5 Don&nechama,thanxforpromptreplies.
6 Also,attheoutset,letmereiterate,
7 b"h
8
9 Whatdoes
10
11 A. "ThankGod".
12
13 Q. Thankyou:
14
15 Inmelbournewehavebeenabletoseparate
16 people'scommunalroles&relationships
17 withtheirpersonalones.Let'skeepit
18 thatwaywhateverelsehappens.Anyofmy
19 anger&criticismisatthecommunalroles,
20 notprivatepeople.
21
22 Soyouweren'tangryatNechamaorDonWolf,butintheir
23 roleasmanagers;isthatwhatyouaresating?
24 A. Atthatstage,yes. It'ssinceshifted.
25
26 Q. Let'sjusttalkaboutthisemailatthisstage?
27 A. Okay. Sorry.
28
29 Q. Yousay:
30
31 Concerningcommentsaboutthecasein
32 particular,youarenodoubtcorrect
33 regardingthepoliceinvestigation.Iam
34 talkingaboutsomethingdifferent.
35
36 Beforemenahemwentpublic,noserious
37 effortwasmadeby[theYeshivahCentre]
38
39 Whatdidyoumeanby"YC"?
40 A. YeshivahCollege,YeshivahCentre. Itisallone
41 thing.
42
43 Q.
44 Togetpeopletocomeforward.Thisisnot
45 amatterofdiscussion,it'safact.
46 Menahemgoingpublic,&especiallytothe
47 age,hasmovedthepolicecaseonto
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6128
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 anotherlevelwiththepublicityit
2 brought,buthasgeneratedcriticismofmy
3 familywithintheyeshivacommunity.Even
4 thoughimaynothavegonedownthatpath
5 (totheage),noonehastherightto
6 tellhim,avictim,whattodointhis
7 matter.Norhasanyonesuggestedhowelse
8 thecontinuednoncooperationofyccould
9 bechanged,withoutseriouspublicity.The
10 onelinerputupbytelsnerthentaken
11 downontheycnoticeboardwashardlyvery
12 inspiring,whencomparedwithperceptionof
13 thedroshotheshabbosbefore.Inshort,
14 whatirequireissomethingpublictothe
15 yccommunitythatycunderstands
16 menahemgoingpublic,eventhoughtheywish
17 hehadn't,thattheydon'tblamehimfor
18 it,&thattheyvigorouslyencourage
19 victims&anyonewithknowledgealiketogo
20 tothepolice.Sinceme&myfamily
21 havealsobeenattackedincertain
22 quarters,somethingaboutthatmustalsobe
23 included,eventhoughihadnothingtodo
24 withit.Anythinglesswilllooklikeit's
25 onlyforshow,&that'swhyiwouldliketo
26 seeitbeforepublication.
27
28 Victims,&evenjustplainoldpeoplewith
29 seriousknowledge,requireclear
30 instructionsfromtheycleadership&
31 rabbisetc,thatit'snoonlyokfor
32 victims&peoplewithinfotocomeforward:
33 Alpihalocho
34
35 A. AccordingtoJewishlaw.
36
37 Q.
38 Theymustcomeforward.Incaseyoudon't
39 understand,acasestudy,fromthismorning
40 acertainindividual
41
42 Thenyoudescribethecircumstance. Wewon'tgointothat
43 purposehere. CanIaskyouthis. Inthisemail
44 A. Itisashameyouwon'tgointoit,butitshowsthe
45 depthofhowfarthecoverupwaspreparedtogo.
46
47 Q. Iwanttojustfocusonthethingsyouarewritingto
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 theYeshivahCentrejustforthemoment?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Firstly,therewasaperceptionbysomeandothers
5 thattheYeshivahCentre,rightlyorwrongly,werenot
6 cooperatingfullywiththepolice?
7 A. (Witnessnods).
8
9 Q. Accuratelyorinaccurately,thatwastheperception?
10 A. Mmmhmm.
11
12 Q. Doyouagreewithmethatthatwastheperception?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 Q. That'swhatyouareseekingtoconveytothemhereand
16 inyourearlieremail?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 Q. DoIunderstandyouwantedthemtomake
20 A. CanIjust
21
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Iwasn'tsortofconveyingtothemanynew
24 information. IwasjustsettingdownwhatIknewthatthey
25 knew,becausetheyweredoingit,andIknewtheyknewthey
26 weredoingit,andtheyknewthatIknewthattheyknew.
27
28 Q. MrWaks,Ijustwanttofocuswewilllookat
29 whetherornottheevidencesuggestsYeshivahCentre
30 cooperatedornot?
31 A. Okay.
32
33 Q. ButIunderstandfromyourevidenceyoubelievethey
34 hadn'tandyoubelievethattheyknewthattheyhadn't?
35 A. (Witnessnods).
36
37 Q. DoIunderstandcorrectly?
38 A. Yes,youdo.
39
40 Q. Andyouweretellingthemthatinthisemail?
41 A. Yes.
42
43 Q. Andyouarealsosaying,"Youneedtocomeforwardas
44 leadersandtellthiscommunity"thethingsyouhaveset
45 outinthisparagraph?
46 A. Yes.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6130
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Wasitthehopethatindoingthatpeoplewouldstop
2 attackingyouandMenahemandyourfamily?
3 A. Yes. Also,eventhoughitmaysoundstrange,Ialways
4 hadthetwothingsrunningparallelorthreethings. One
5 wasprotectingmyfamily;onewashelpingthepoliceor
6 helpingthecurrentvictimtogetmorepeopletocome
7 forward;andgettingpeopletocomeforwardaboutother
8 perpetrators,whichIknewtobe. Soallthetimeit'snot
9 justaboutprotectingme. It'sthewholethingofgetting
10 peopletocooperate,withallthatthatentailed,andsome
11 ofitwasinparticulartohelpusasafamily;butitwas
12 thewholedeal.
13
14 Q. Whywasitimportantforyouatthistimeforthe
15 leadershiptocomeforwardandsay,"Stopcriticising
16 Manny. Hehasn'tdoneanythingwrong"? Whydidyouthink
17 thatwasimportantforothervictims?
18 A. BecauseknowingthecommunityIknewthatitwould
19 becomeanybodyelsethatcameforward,thiswouldbe
20 theirfearormyperceptionoftheirfearthattheywould
21 knowultimatelythatitwouldbecomepublic. Andtheyhave
22 seenwhathappenstosomeonenow. Soitwillhappento
23 them. Sothisissomethingthatwouldstopthemcoming
24 forwardasvictims. Anditwouldstopsomeoneelsea
25 parent. "Seewhathappenedtotheparent?" Itwillstopa
26 parentgettinginvolved. Theywilladvisetheirchild,and
27 itwilljuststopthewholething,whichisexactlywhatit
28 did,andit'sbeenconfirmedsincemanytimestomany
29 people,verballybymembers.
30
31 Q. CanIaskyouthenaboutsomethingelseyoureferto
32 inthisemail,andyourefertoaonelinerputupby
33 TelsnerthentakendownontheYC. That'showyoudescribe
34 him?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. Wasitdeliberateinthisemailtonotrefertohimas
38 RabbiTelsner?
39 A. Solet'sgetitclear,becauseIknowwhat'sbeing
40 said,thatIshowedhimdisrespect. AfterthatSabbath,
41 theSabbathaftertheweekafterMannywentpublicandhe
42 didwhathedidtomeinpublicandmywifewalkedoutwith
43 sevenoreightwomen,thenIdefinitelyIstopped
44 referringtohimasRabbiTelsner. So,yes,itwas
45 deliberate.
46
47 Q. CanIsuggestperhapsthatinfactitisafterthese
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C6131
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 emailsthatRabbiTelsnerdeliversthesermoninwhichhe
2 isitpossiblethatitwasafterthisdate? Wouldyoulike
3 tosee?
4 A. Itdependsonthedate. Itisveryeasytofindout.
5 AllyouhavetodoislookatthedatewhenMannywent
6 public. Manny'swasThursdayorFriday. Soeightdays
7 laterwasthesermon. Soit'sjustamatteroflookingat
8 thedates.
9
10 Q. Soit'sabout16July2011. Soit'safterthese
11 emailsthatyouhavesenttomanagementofYeshivahand
12 thenthesermonontheShabbat. Letmetakeyoutoit. If
13 youlookatparagraph38ofyourstatement. Doyouhavea
14 copyofyourstatementinfrontofyou?
15 A. Yes.
16
17 Q. Havealookatparagraph38?
18 A. Yes,16th,allright. Yes. What'sthedateofthat
19 email?
20
21 Q. 12July.
22 A. Allright. I'msorry,Ihavemisledyou. Ididn'tdo
23 itonpurpose. Itwasn'tafterthesermon,butitwas
24 obviouslyafterseeingthatnothingwasbeingdone. Itwas
25 seeingthatnobodywasanswering. Hedidn'tanswerme.
26 Ihadassumedthathewouldbeoneofthepeopleincluded.
27 Idon'tknowifyouwantmetobringupanothermatterthat
28 happenedwithhiminthepastbeforethat.
29
30 Q. Canweleavethatforthemoment. Wewill,maybeif
31 counselcomebacktoitinasecond. Idon'twanttolose
32 whereweareat. Wewillcomebacktothatissue. Wewill
33 comebacktotheissueofwhetheryouhadanypersonal
34 issuewithRabbiTelsneratanothertime. Iwanttojust
35 focusonthemessageherethatyouaresendingto
36 management?
37 A. Okay. I'msorry. Ididn'tmeantomisleadanybody.
38
39 Q. No,that'sokay. IwanttocomebacktowhatIwas
40 actuallyaskingyouaboutwastheoneline. Now,wasthat
41 sentdidyouseethatonthenoticeboard?
42 A. Yes.
43
44 Q. Wasitsenttoanyone? Wasitemailed?
45 A. Idon'tremember. Idon'tbelieveso. Idon't
46 believeso.
47
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Andisyourevidencethatitwasputupandthen
2 removed?
3 A. Yes. ItwasputupinsuchawaythereasonIsay
4 "oneliner"iswhenIspokebeforeaboutthesubtext,it
5 wasquiteobviouswhatthatmeant. Ifyouputupanotice,
6 afullA4pageandjustonelinesaying,"Pleasecooperate
7 withthepolice,"that'snothowyoudoit. Everybody
8 understandsthat. Anybodythatwouldbedoingit,even
9 withoutallthepressuresofcommunitythatIhave
10 describedtoyou,anyplacethatwasseriousaboutitwould
11 describetheproblemwithvictimsand,"It'salongtime
12 ago,weknowthat,butcomeforward." Youwouldgivesome
13 backgroundtoit. Youwoulddosomethingtoreally
14 encouragepeople. Youwouldgointodetailabouthow
15 Jewishlawreallymandateddoingit.
16
17 Q. CanIaskfortab34,RingtailYSV.001.001.0268_R.
18 Havealookatthisdocumentforme,MrWaks?
19 A. Yes,that'sprobablywhatwasup. Iimaginethat
20 wouldhavebeenup.
21
22 Q. Isthatwhatyouarereferringtoastheoneline
23 document?
24 A. Yes. Sorry,itwasthree.
25
26 Q. Leavethataside. Isthisthedocumentyouare
27 referringto?
28 A. Yes,Iwouldbelievethat;yes. Iwouldbelievethat
29 andIwouldsay,eventhoughitsaysallthesewords,
30 "Istateemphaticallythattheyshouldfullycooperate,"
31 Imaintainthatyoumustnotlookatthewordsinavacuum.
32 Youhavetolookattheminthecontextofthecommunity,
33 whatthatmeans.
34
35 Q. Iwillcometoexplorethat. Butinanyeventthis
36 documentisdated16June2011. Iwilltenderthat
37 documentwhileI'monit.
38
40
41 EXHIBIT#229DOCUMENTYSV.001.001.0268_R
42
43 MSGERACE: Q. ThatdocumentisdatedJune16,2011,and
44 yourevidenceisthatyousawitatsomestageonthe
45 noticeboardandthenatanotherstagesawithadbeen
46 removed?
47 A. Yes.
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C6133
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
2 Q. Andyourevidenceisthat,betweeneventhatdateand
3 followingthearticleaboutMannyon8Julyandinthe
4 backgroundtotheseemailsthatwearetalkingabout,you
5 andyourfamilywerebeingcriticisedandostracisedor
6 A. Yes,sure.
7
8 Q. Isthatright?
9 A. Yes,that'scorrect. Rightfromthefirstdayofthe
10 articleappearingintheAge,thatsealedourfate.
11
12 Q. Icancomebacktotheemails. Sowearenowatthe
13 secondlengthyemailwehavebeenexaminingwhereyouask
14 yetagainfortheretobeapublicstatementsayingthat
15 thevictimsshouldn'tbeblamed,norshouldthefamily.
16 Thentheresponsethatyoureceivedtothat,ifwecould
17 justgotothebottomofpage1,please. Youcansee
18 there,MrWaks,downthebottomthelastfivelinesbegin
19 "From:DonWolf. Sent:Tuesday,July12,1.40pmto
20 ZephaniahWaks,cc'dtoNechamaBendet. Ifwegooverthe
21 pagethatwouldappeartobetheemail. Isthatthe
22 responseyougot?
23 A. Yes,that'sright. That'swhyjustbeforethatwas
24 myresponsethenbacktohim,wasit?
25
26 Q. WoulditbeeasierifIgetyouacopyoftheemailso
27 youcanseethemintheirformratherthan
28 A. PerhapssothatIcanIdon'tknowwhatcomesabove
29 it. Thisishisemail,andmyresponsewaswhatweread
30 before,thatit'sunsatisfactory?
31
32 Q. No,thatemailwereadbeforeissenttoDonWolf
33 beforethisresponse. Thisisthesecondresponseyouget
34 fromDonWolfthatappearsinthatemailchain?
35 A. Yes,sothatmeanshewritestheresponsebacktome
36 was,"Thecollegeintendstowriteafurtherletter",and
37 Iwritebacktohim,"Thanksforyourswiftreply." Itwas
38 withinanhourortwo.Isaid,"It'stoomuchupintheair
39 anddoesnotsuffice,"that'sall. Exactlyright. That
40 meansitwasanonanswer. Herepliedpromptlybutdidn't
41 doanything. Hewasgoingtowritealetterinthefuture,
42 youknow. Thereisnomentionofhimshowingmetheletter
43 oranythinglikethat,whichIknewthatwithoutthatwould
44 bemeaningless.
45
46 Q. Infactyouweren'thappyaboutthat,soyousenthim
47 anotheremailon14July,twodayslater,at1.35pmwhich
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 isatthetopofthatpage1.
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Iwillreadthatresponse:
5
6 Unfortunately,whatIwasworriedaboutas
7 detailedintheemailexchangesbetweenus
8 attachedbelow,happenedintheYeshivah
9 thismorning. Iwasverballyattackedin
10 frontofotherpeoplebyaprominentmember
11 ofthecommunity,accompaniedbylooksthat
12 couldkill. WhenIaskedwhatIhaddone,
13 thepersontoldme,"Youknow"andIasked
14 again,"Whatinparticular?"Theperson
15 wouldnotelaborateandwalkedoff.
16
17 Hadanythinglikethathappenedtoyoubefore,being
18 attackedintheYeshivah?
19 A. No,thiswasanewlevel. DidIsaythat? Itwasa
20 newlevel. Thiswasthenextstep. Iwasattacked
21 verbally. Thisguyatthetimewas,like,thepresident
22 theguyinchargeofthesynagogue,thepresident. Hewas
23 alsothebrotherinlawofRabbiGlickandNechamaBendet.
24 Sohehadskininthegame.
25
26 Q. Howwereyoufeelingatthisstageafterbeing
27 attacked?
28 A. Inpublic,like,inthosewords,itwasverybad. It
29 wasvery,veryembarrassingandveryandalso
30 Iunderstoodthere'sawaronnow. That'stheway
31
32 Q. Isthatthewayyouwoulddescribeit? Isthatwhat
33 itfeltlike?
34 A. Yes. IfeltlikeI'mbeingopenlyattacked. There
35 areotherpeoplestandingaround. Nooneissaying
36 anything. I'mbeingdemeanedandattacked,forwhat,in
37 public,andIcanseethatit'sonlygoingtogetworse
38 becauseallthethingsthatIhadbeenexpressinguntilnow
39 werehappeningonebyone. SoIhadnoreasontothink
40 thatmyworstfearswouldn'tberealised. Thisstillwas
41 beforethesermonthen,wasit? Gosh. Allright. Okay.
42
43 Q. Yougoontorefertothe"letterfromtheprincipal
44 thismorning,whilelongoverdue,waswelcome". Soyouhad
45 receivedorhadbecomeawareofaletterfrom
46 theprincipal;isthatright?
47 A. TheonewhichIsaidIwasn'tsurebutIrecognised
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 somethinginit. Yes,ifthedatesarerightitmustbe
2 thatletter;yes.
3
4 Q. CanItakeyoutoadocument,please,whichistab43,
5 YSV.0001.001.0339. Justtakethetimetoreadthat.
6 Idon'tknowwhetheryouhaveseenitrecently. Wasthat
7 theletteryouwerereferringtoinyouremail,doyou
8 believe,"theletterfromtheprincipalthismorning"?
9 A. Ifthedatesgorightandhe'stheprincipal,Iassume
10 itwouldbe. WhatdoIsayhere?
11
12 Q. Ifyouarenotsurethat'sokay. Youweresending
13 thisemailon14Julyat1.35pm. Youarereferringto
14 "receivingaletterthismorning",andthisletterisdated
15 13July2011addressedto"Dearparents"?
16 A. Yes. Thatmakessensethatitwouldhavebeenthat.
17 AgainIgothroughthesethingshere. It'satotally
18 differentsetofissues. Theyhaven'ttouchedtheissues
19 whichImentionedhere. Soitcompletelymakessensetome
20 thatthatwouldbetheletter,yes.
21
22 Q. SothethingsthatyouhadaskedtheYeshivah
23 community,thattheyhadspokenoutplainlyandstrongly
24 thatvictimsshouldnotbeblamednorshouldtheir
25 families,thatit'sokayforvictimsandpeopletocome
26 forward,thattheylegallymust,essentiallylookingfora
27 vigorousandstrongsupportofthestancetakenbyMenahem
28 andperhapsotherswhomightwanttotakethat,youfelt
29 thisletterdidn'taddressthoseconcerns?
30 A. Absolutelynot. Aswellasevenwithoutthefact
31 thatit'smissingthosethings,it'salsoridiculousfor
32 itselfbecauseitspeaksagainabout"stuffmayhave
33 occurred","we'reofferinghelptopeople"andeverything
34 likethat. Whathelp? Where? What? Allrubbish.
35
36 Q. Whatdidyouthinkabout,ifIcanaskyouthis,if
37 youthoughtanythingatall,inthefirstparagraph"is
38 furthertomyletterofJune21I'mwritingtoprovideyou
39 withafurtherupdate",thenextparagraphsays:
40
41 Asyouareawaretherehasbeenmedia
42 attentiondirectedtowardsYeshivahCollege
43 regardingallegationsconcerningevents
44 around15to20yearsago. TheVictoria
45 Policeareinvestigatingtheallegations
46 andtheschooliscooperatingfullywith
47 thepolice. Inrelationtothemorerecent
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6136
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 allegationsreportedinTheAgeonFriday
2 July8th
3
4 Didyouunderstandthat,firstly,torefertoMenahem
5 A. Iimaginethat'swhatitwouldhavebeen,lookingat
6 itnowwithoutknowinganything. BecauseIrememberatthe
7 timethat"itwasn'tamemberofstaff;hehadnothingto
8 dowithanything". Ofcoursenot.
9
10 Q. Whatdidyouthinkaboutthatstatement,ifanything?
11 A. Alie. Againalie.
12
13 Q. Soinresponsetoreceivingthatletter,ifIcango
14 backnow,please
15 A. Actuallyit'sveryinteresting. Wewereactually
16 awareatthetimeofthefactofwhowaswritingletters.
17 That'sanotherlittlebitofintrigue. Herewasthe
18 principalwritingtheletter. Wasthistheprincipal?
19
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Sohewouldhavebeennotamemberofstaffofthe
22 school,that'scorrectoftheschool. Hewouldhavebeen
23 probablyanemployeeoftheYeshivahCentre. "Nothingto
24 dowithus." Thisishowthiswasperceivedbypeoplewho
25 wereinvolvedinthething. Againshiftingblame,hiding,
26 covering.
27
28 Q. Iwilltendertheletter. Iwilltendertheseriesof
29 emailsattab44,YSV.0001.001.0425_R.
30
31 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Thatbundleofemailswillbe
32 2210.
33
34 EXHIBIT#2210BUNDLEOFEMAILS
35
36 MSGERACE: AndtheletterfromYeshivahCollegeaddressed
37 to"Dearparents"dated13July2011,whichappearsattab
38 43,YSV.0001.001.0339.
39
41
42 EXHIBIT#2211LETTERFROMYESHIVAHCOLLEGEADDRESSEDTO
43 "DEARPARENTS"DATED13JULY2011
44
45 MSGERACE: Inotethetime. Isthatconvenient?
46
47 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. MrWaks,wewilltakethe
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6137
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
lunchadjournmentnowuntil2.
2
<THEWITNESSWITHDREW
3
4
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT
5
6
<ZEPHANIAHWAKS,recalled:
[2.03pm]
7
8
9 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Thankyou,MsGerace.
10
11 MSGERACE: Thankyou,YourHonour. Beforethebreak,
12 MrWaks,weweretalkingaboutIwasaskingyouquestions
13 aboutsomeofyouremailswiththeYeshivahmanagement
14 expressingyourconcernsaboutthingsthatwerehappening
15 inthecommunity. Wewerelookingatadocument,your
16 emailof14July2011,2210. Ithinkwegotasfaras
17 discussingthefactthatyouhadbeenattacked,verbally
18 attacked,bysomeoneyouconsideredtobeaprominent
19 memberofthecommunity,accompaniedbysortofstrange
20 looks.
21
22 Youthensetoutinyouremailarequest. Yourefer
23 totheletterfromtheprincipal,butthensetouta
24 requestthatmanagementclarifywhatyouperceivedtobe
25 communitymisunderstandings. DoIunderstandittobethat
26 youunderstoodthosemisunderstandingswereleadingpeople
27 toattackyourfamilyandtreatyouinthewaythatyou
28 werebeingtreated?
29 A. Yes.
30
31 Q. MayIaskthis. Itmaynothavebeenentirelyclear
32 fromyourevidenceearlier. Areyousayingthatasa
33 resultofthearticleaboutMannyinthepaperthatthere
34 wasaverymarkeddifferenceforyouinthewayyouwere
35 beingtreatedbymembersinthecommunityandasyouwent
36 aboutyourdayattheYeshivahCentreandinteractedwith
37 variouspeople?
38 A. Yes. Instant.
39
40 Q. Instant?
41 A. Yes,thefirsttimeIcameback. AsIsaid,wewere
42 awayinCanberra. TheSundaynightorMonday,wheneverwe
43 came,whenIwalkedintothesynagogueforthefirsttime,
44 obviouslyIhadsometrepidationmyself,butitwasn't
45 misplacedtrepidation.
46
47 Q. InthisemailwhenyouwrotetoDonWolfandNechama
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Bendetyouaskedthemtoactuallyyouwerejustadvising
2 themthattheletterfromtheprincipal,whilelongoverdue
3 waswelcome,butdidnotaddresswhatwereyourconcernsat
4 thetime?
5 A. (Witnessnods).
6
7 Q. Yousetoutthoseconcerns,whichwere:One,thatyou
8 didnotinitiatethecurrentpoliceinquiries,butyou
9 shouldnothavetobedefensiveaboutitevenifyouhad?
10 A. Iknow,itseemsabsurdthatIhavetosaythat. It
11 looksjustridiculous,butit'strue.
12
13 Q. And,secondly,thatyouyourselfhadnotgonetothe
14 media,butagainthatyoushouldnothavetobedefensive
15 aboutitevenifyouhad?
17
18 Q. Three,thatyoudidn'tencourageanyoneelsetogoto
19 themedia?
20 A. Mmhm.
21
22 Q. AndyouwantedYeshivahtosaywhetherornotthey
23 likedit,thatitwasunderstandablewhyMenahemhadgone
24 tothemedia?
25 A. Mmhm. Thesearepuremotherhoodstatementstome
26 now,lookingatthem. Sototallyobvious.
27
28 Q. Youbelieved,didyou,asyousetoutlateron,that
29 "Someinthecommunityareobviouslysufferingunder
30 misapprehensionswhichonlyyoucanclearupinanemailto
31 thewholecommunity"andyoudemandedthatbedone?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. Whydidyouaskthem,asyousetoutthere,that"It
35 probablyshouldnotmentionthenameWaksatall,but
36 shouldbestressingdon'tblamethevictimorhisfamily"?
37 A. Again,that'sinterestingbecauseIwanttokeepthe
38 nameWaksoutofitandalsoIcan'tthinkwhyIwouldhave
39 saidthat. MaybeIjustwantedtokeepthenamethename
40 Wakshasbeenoutintheblogsandeverythingenoughnow.
41 Justkeepthatoutandjustsayingeneralitshouldbe
42 becauseagain,asIsaid,partofmymotivationinthe
43 wholethingwasalsothinkingaboutothervictimsandother
44 familiesandifyoujustmadeit,"TheWaksesareokay,but
45 ingeneralifanyonegoestothemediaoranyonedoes
46 anything,thatwouldbenogood." Sotheonlymeaningful
47 waythatitwouldbewasifitwascompletelygeneral,
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 statementoffact,"Thisisthewaythingsareandthisis
2 thewayit'sgottobenow,"essentiallysaying"Wehave
3 changedourtunefrom20yearsago." Thatiswhatit
4 requiredandithadtobesobroadastobemeaningful,or
5 tobemeaningful. Ithadtobesobroadtobemeaningful
6 otherwiseitwouldbeperceivedasjustbucklingunder
7 threatsorsomethinglikethat;Idon'tknow.
8
9 Q. Doyoumeanyouwantedittolookasthoughitwas
10 beingwillinglygivenfromthemanagement?
11 A. Yes,thattheyhadactuallyhadachangeofheart,
12 exactly. Evenifnotwillingly,atleastitwasgenuine.
13
14 Q. Didyoubelievethatifthemanagementdidthese
15 things,wentoutinthisbroadwayandsaidthethingsthat
16 youhaveaskedforinthisemailinthepast,doyou
17 believethatmayhavechangedthewaymembersofthe
18 communitydealtwithyou?
19 A. Ihavezerodoubt. Zerodoubt. Itwouldhavechanged
20 everything. Iftheymeantitandwroteit,thetwothings.
21 Notjustwroteit. Butifithadbeenknowntheymeantit
22 andithadbeenwritteninsuchawaythatpeopleknewthey
23 meantit,IhavenodoubtIwouldn'tbesittingheretoday,
24 nodoubt.
25
26 Q. Letmeaskyouthis,MrWaks. DidtheYeshivah
27 managementrespondtothisemailinthewayyou'daskedby
28 sendingouttothecommunity
29 A. No,neveratanystage,theyneverdidanything. They
30 didn'tdoanythingclosetowhatIasked,notevenhalfof
31 it,notevenaquarter,nothing.
32
33 Q. Thatemailwassentbyyouon14July2011,inwhich
34 youagainappeartoaskforthingsrequestedbyyouinyour
35 earliertwoemailsofboth12Julyand11July. CanIask
36 youtonowreadyourstatementfromparagraph38onwards
37 abouteventsyousayoccurredon16July?
38 A. Yes. On16July2011atthesecondSabbathafter
39 Mannymadethepubliccomments,RabbiZviTelsner,Rabbi
40 Telsner,theheadrabbioftheYeshivahCentreandthelate
41 RabbiGroner'ssoninlawdeliveredasermoninMelbourne
42 fromthepulpitabouttheevilsoftalkingtothoseoutside
43 oftheYeshivahCentrecommunityaboutmatterswhichmight
44 besmirchtheYeshivahCentrecommunity.
45
46 Withoutnaminganynames,RabbiTelsneraskedthe
47 audience,"Whogaveyoupermissiontotalktoanyone?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Whichrabbigaveyoupermission?" Hewasfrothingatthe
2 mouthalmostatthetime. RabbiTelsnerthensaid,"The
3 rabbishavethepowertoexcommunicatepeoplewhenthey
4 disobeytherabbis"andwentthroughandenumeratedallthe
5 differentlevelsofexcommunicationthatareavailablein
6 Jewishlaw. Therearedifferentgradationsofit. Healso
7 said,"Theworstsinisbesmirchingthenameofthelate
8 RabbiGroner." Ibelieve,andIbelievedthen,thatRabbi
9 Telsner'ssermonwasdirectedatme. Ifeltthreatenedand
10 outraged. Iwalkedoutofthesynagogueandapproximately
11 eightwomenwalkedoutwithmywifeinsupportofher.
12 Continue?
13
14 Q. Yes,orIwilltakeyouonfromhere. Onthatsame
15 dayyouwroteanemailtoSergeantScottDwyerfrom
16 VictoriaPolicesettingoutthosedetailsandquotesfrom
17 thesermon. CanIbringupthatemail,document
18 YSV.0001.001.0465. Tab45. Canyouseethat,MrWaks?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. It'squitesmall,butisthistheemailthatyouare
22 referringtoinyourstatementyousentfollowingthat
23 sermon?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 Q. ThatwastoScottDwyeratthepolice?
27 A. Hewasinchargeoftheinvestigationatthetime.
28
29 Q. Youwereinquiringaboutwhetheranychargescouldbe
30 laidagainsttherabbiinrelationtoyoursermon?
31 A. Hissermon,yes.
32
33 Q. Hissermon. Yousetouttheresomeofthethingsthat
34 weresaidsorry,yousetouttherequotes,doyou,from
35 whatyouheardinthesermon? Couldwegoupalittlebit?
36 A. Yes,yes,obviouslyI'mreadingithereandifIwrote
37 itthen,that'swhathappened. Irememberit. Iamjust
38 takinghiswords. Eventhoughhedidn'tmentionmyname,
39 hesaysthere,"Inthelastfewweekspeoplehaveargued
40 aboutwhoImeantinmysermons,"becauseweekspreviously
41 hemadeasermonpeopleunderstoodtomeansomebodyelse
42 aboutsendingemails,notme. "NowIamsayingclearly,if
43 youthinkitreferstoyou,itdoes. Don'tthinkitmeans
44 someoneelse." Well,Ithoughtitmeantmeandhetoldme
45 nottothinkitmeantanyoneelse. ThenItoldhim,"Who
46 gaveyoupermission. Rabbishavethepowerto
47 excommunicate." SoIsenthimthemainpointsthere.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6141
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 That'scorrect.
2
3 Q. Hadyoubeenatthisearliersermonthat
4 A. Ibelieveso,andIbelieveitwasaboutemailsthat
5 hadbeensentoutbyaguycalled[redacted],whoatthat
6 timewasabigfighteragainstthem,whoonlybecametheir
7 goodfriendwhenhestartedattackingme.
8
9 Q. CanIjustaskyou,withoutnamingnames,doyou
10 believeitwasemailsthatweresentoutthatwasin
11 responsetoemailssentoutabouttheissueofchildabuse,
12 ordoyoubelieveit'ssomeoneelse?
13 A. Ijustdon'tknownow. Idon'tknow. ButIdidn't
14 thinkthattheywerereferringtome.
15
16 Q. Theearliersermon?
17 A. Theearliersermon,yes,Ididn'tthinkitwas
18 referringtome.
19
20 Q. Withoutsayingthen,canIjustaskthis. Youdid
21 hearanearliersermonbyRabbiTelsnerandyoubelievedit
22 wasdirectedagainstsomeone,didyou?
23 A. Yes.
24
25 Q. Whyisthat? Didtherabbidothatoftenorwasthis
26 achangeor
27 A. Didthatrabbidoitordootherrabbisdoit?
28
29 Q. DidthisRabbiTelsner. Whydidyouthink
30 A. Yes,hehaddoneitbefore. Evenbeforethattimehe
31 haddoneotherthings.
32
33 Q. Sowheneveryouheardwasthisasermon,mayIask
34 you,aboutanegativereport,asermontalkingabout
35 someonehavingdonesomethingandcomparingittothe
36 eventsthathadledtotheJewishpeoplebeinginexilefor
37 40yearsorwasthisanothersermon?
38 A. Ijustdon'trememberifitwasinthatcontextor
39 not.
40
41 Q. Allright. Butinanyevent
42 A. IbecamequiteemotionalatthetimeandsoImight
43 havehadimmediateamnesiaofsomeoftheotherparts. The
44 partsthatIfocusedonweretheseparts.
45
46 Q. ItenderthatemailfromZephaniahWakstoScottDwyer
47 attab45.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6142
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
3
4 EXHIBIT#2212EMAILFROMZEPHANIAHWAKSTOSCOTTDWYER
5
6 MSGERACE: CanIaskyouthis. Youreadthebitsofthat
7 statementthatappeartoquoteRabbiTelsnerina
8 particularway. Doesthatreflecttheforceinwhichthose
9 wordsweredeliveredinthesermon?
10 A. AsIsaid,yes,itdoes,andIbelievehewasalmost
11 frothingatthemouth. Hewasveryangry. Topointout
12 thesortofwayitwastaken,thefactthateightwomen
13 walkedoutwithmywife,it'sunheardof. Idon'tbelieve
14 anybodyhaseverwalkedoutinYeshivahinasermonbefore
15 orafter. Idon'tbelieveithaseverhappened,ever.
16 Icertainlydon'tknowaboutitandifsomeonecontradicts
17 meIwouldliketoknowaboutit. Butitisahighly
18 unusualevent,justunheardof,soithadtobethat
19 strong. Andoneofthepeoplewhowalkedoutwasactually
20 amemberofthecommitteeofthesynagogue,awomanmember
21 ofthecommittee. Soithadtobeveryunusual.
22
23 Q. Allright. Wewillcomebacktothesermonina
24 littlewhile,butcanIaskyoutothendescribesomeof
25 theeventsthatyousayoccurredfollowingthesermon. If
26 youcouldreadonfromtheexclusion,please,paragraphs41
27 andfollowing?
28 A. InapproximatelyMay2012IwastoldbyGurewicz,with
29 whomIstillhadastrongfriendshipthat'sjumpinga
30 longwayaheadnow,it'sjustbeenbuildingandbuilding.
31 Obviouslyafterthissermonthat'sacarteblanchefor
32 anybodytodoanythingalreadyandwehadalreadyseeneven
33 beforethesermonthatIwasverballyattackedvery
34 viciouslyinfrontofpeople,but
35
36 Q. Iwillstopyoutherethen. Didthingsescalateafter
37 that?
38 A. Yes,itwasjustacontinualescalation,"boom,boom,"
39 justlikethis. Ionlygettohereinthestatement
40 obviouslybecausethiswasamajorturningpoint. Aguy
41 thathadbeenbehindmeandheactuallyresignedatone
42 stage,Idon'trememberthechronology,butheresignedat
43 onestagefromthespiritualleadershipcommitteein
44 supportofme. Soheactuallydidputhimselfouttherea
45 drop,butIjustdon'trememberthechronology. Anyway,
46 that'swhyIwouldhavejumpedtohim,becausethisisa
47 majorthing. Aguythathasbeencontinuingtolearnwith
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6143
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 me,whenotherpeoplehavebeenmuchmorenegative,wehave
2 stillgonealongandyetnow.
3
4 Q. Whenyouweresayingpeoplecontinuingtolearnwith
5 you,didsomepeoplestopcontinuingtowanttolearnwith
6 you?
7 A. Yes,hisbrotherinlaw. Ilearntregularlywithtwo
8 people. Onewashimandonewashisbrotherinlaw. His
9 brotherinlawhadalreadyceasedearlier. Yes,yes. His
10 brotherinlawhadceasedearlier. Thatwouldhavebeenin
11 theinterimperiod. Thatmeansseveralmonthsbefore.
12
13 Q. Ifyoucouldreadonaboutthiseventthen?
14 A. InapproximatelyMay2012IwastoldbyGurewiczwith
15 whomIstillhadastrongfriendshipandwithwhom
16 IstudiedreligiousstudieswithattheYeshivahCentre,
17 thateverydayhewasapproachedbyotherswithinthe
18 communityurginghimtoendourfriendshipandcease
19 religiousstudieswithme. Iknowthiswasduetomy
20 involvementwiththepoliceinvestigationandManny's
21 publicity.
22
23 Ishouldalsoaddhereevenbeforeitcametothishe
24 mentionedtomeallthetime,fromthetimethatMannywent
25 public,hewasmentioningafteraboutaweekhesaid,
26 "Okay,heshouldstopnow. It'senoughalready. People
27 aregettingsickofit,"becausehehadFacebook. Sohe
28 wastellingmeallthetimeandhewasjustreferringtome
29 obviouslywhatotherpeopleweresaying.
30
31 Q. TheyweretalkingtoyouaboutwhatMannywasdoingon
32 hisFacebook?
33 A. Ofcourse,that'sforsure. WhatMannyisdoingand
34 theyaregettingthemessagetomeandIwasthinkinga
35 differentpointbutyoubroughtupagoodpoint. Again
36 conflatingthetwoofus. Butthesecondthingisitis
37 afteraweek,afterthree,"Itisenough,peoplearesick
38 ofit,stopitalready,"oneweek,threeweeks,eachtime.
39 Sothisthinghadbeengoingonthewholetime. Sonowwe
40 getuptohere.
41
42 ThatsamedayIrequestedameetingwiththe
43 leadershipoftheYeshivahCentretoputanendtothe
44 tensionIwasfeelingbetweenmyfamilyandtheYeshivah
45 Centre.
That'sabitofanunderstatement. Itwasn'tjust
46 tension. Anyway. Imadenumerousrequestsforthis
47 meeting.
Ithinkpreviouslyaswellandcertainlyafter
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6144
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 this. However,myrequestswereultimatelydenied. The

2 meetingdidnottakeplace.
3
4 ImustsaythatIofferedthatmeetingunderanysort
5 ofconditionswhichseemludicrousnow. Isaid,"Iwill
6 comeonmyownandyoucanhaveasmanyguysasyouwanton
7 yoursideandyoucanhaveQCstherewithyouandIwillbe
8 onmyownagainstyou,"becauseIhadreallynothingto
9 fear.
10
11 Q. Whodidyouaskaboutthosemeetings?
12 A. Gurewicz,becausehewasaseniormemberofthething
13 andhewastheprincipalofthegirlsschool. Hewasolder
14 thananyoneelseinthatmanagementteam. Hewasthe
15 oldestChabadmember,seniorChabadmemberthatwas
16 involvedintheschoolandinthething. Therewasnoone
17 olderthanhim. Hisfather,hislatefather,hadbeenthe
18 chieffundraiser,hadbeenoneoftheinitiatorsofthe
19 YeshivahCentre,sohewastheman. Apartfrombeingmy
20 friend,hewastheperfectguytodoit. Hewas
21 theoreticallyongoodtermswiththem,hewastheprincipal
22 andhisfatherhadthisconnectionandhehimselfwason
23 thespiritualcommittee,eitherthenorbefore,Idon't
24 rememberwhenhegotoff,sohewastheperfectguytotry
25 toarrangethismeeting. Andheactuallyagreed. Isaid
26 tohim,"Andyoucantapethemeeting,youknow,therewill
27 benoproblem. Youcantapeit." Hesaid,"Oh,yeah,
28 that'sagoodidea." Iwasthinkingtomyself,"That's
29 funny,they'renotgoingtowanttotapethismeeting." He
30 said,"Yeah,theycantapethemeeting. Thatmeansthey
31 willagreetodoit,becausetheycantapethemeetingso
32 therecanbenomisquotingaboutwhatwesaid." Obviously
33 hethoughtitmightactuallygoaheadandthatwouldputa
34 stoptoallthis. Buttherewasnomeeting.
35
36 Q. Youofferedtogoonyourownandyouofferedforthem
37 torecordit?
38 A. Yes. Iwantedthemtorecordit. Ididn'tjustoffer
39 it. Iwantedtorecordit. IwasthinkingIwantedto
40 recorditandIwasthinkingtheywillsay,"No,no,no,we
41 willhaveameetingbutnorecording"andhethoughtitwas
42 abrilliantideatorecordit.
43
44 Q. Inanyevent,whatdidheconveybacktoyou?
45 A. No,they'renotinterested. Justtotalk. Themind
46 boggles. I'msorry,IgetemotionalwhenIthinkaboutit.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6145
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Whatwastheemotion?
2 A. Theemotionwasitwasdisappointment,rage,every
3 possibleemotioninthatgamut,andIknewalsofear
4 becauseIknewIsawtheprogression. Ihadseenthe
5 progressionfromdayonewhatwouldhappenanditwasall
6 justhappeninginfrontofmyeyes.
7
8 Q. CanIaskyousomething,MrWaks,somethingIshould
9 haveaskedyouearlier. InthesermonyousaidRabbi
10 Telsnertalkedaboutvariouslevelsofexcommunication.
11 Areyouabletorecallnowwhattheywere?
12 A. There'safewlevelsIcanremember. Cherem,nidui,
13 shamta,therearedifferentnamesandthey'vegotdifferent
14 levels. Oneofthemisjustnotcallingoneofthemis
15 notgivingaliyah,notgivingthehonoursinthesynagogue.
16 That'sonelevel. Anotherlevelisnottalkingtothem.
17 Anotherisnotincludingtheminaquorum. Adding
18 differentthingseachtime,differentlevels. Itisreally
19 veryspecifictogetcontroloverthecommunity.
20
21 Q. Sothisisinthesermonyousayoccurredon16July
22 thatthesedifferentlevelsofexcommunicationoccurred?
23 A. Yes. Hedidn'thementionedthenamesofthemas
24 farasIremember. Hedidn'tgointodetailbecause
25 everybodyknowswhattheyare. Theymightnotknowthe
26 details,buttheyknowtherearedifferentlevelsandthey
27 knowitisserious. Theonepeopleknowingeneralis
28 cherem,puttingsomeoneincherem. Cheremmeanstheyare
29 excludedcompletely,andifyouareinacheremit'sabig
30 problem. Peoplecan'treallytalktoyou. Idon'tknow
31 exactlywhattheJewishlegalexactboundariesare,butit
32 meansyoucan'tdoanything. Youcan'thaveanythingtodo
33 withthematall,talktothemeven.
34
35 Q. Justgoingbacktothesermon,Ijustwanttobeclear
36 whatyourevidenceis. RabbiTelsnerreferredtothe
37 differentlevelsofexcommunicationbyname?
38 A. Yes.
39
40 Q. Butwithoutdescribingwhattheywere. Sohecalled
41 them. Hesaidrabbihasthepowertoexcommunicateandcan
42 dothis,thisandthis;isthatright?
43 A. Hedidn'tusetheword"excommunicate". Hesaid,"The
44 rabbishavethepowerofthisandthisandthis." Theword
45 excommunication,I'mputtingthatintoEnglish. That's
46 whatitmeans.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6146
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Wewillasksomeoftherabbistocomealongand
2 describesomeofthoseconcepts. ButIthinkyoujust
3 mentionedafewtypesofexcommunicationyouknew?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Whatwerethey?
7 A. Shumta,nidui,cherem,theyarethethreethatcometo
8 mind.
9
10 Q. Andcheremiscompleteexclusion?
11 A. Ibelieve. Again,I'mnotcertainifI'mnot
12 certainoftheorder,butthat'stheonecheremisthe
13 onethatmostpeopleeverybodyknowsthatword. The
14 othertwoareabitmoreesotericorabitmorefor
15 learners.
16
17 Q. Wasyourevidencethattherewasatypeof
18 excommunicationthatinvolvedyounotgettinganyaliyahs
19 ortheexcommunicationthatsomeonewouldnotgetaliyahs?
20 A. That'sdefinitelypartofoneofthelevelsandwhen
21 thatactuallyhappenedtome,itdidn'thappenimmediately,
22 butwhenitactuallyhappenedtomethenIsawthatas
23 beingjust,"Hello,hedoesn'thavetosayanything.
24 That'spartofthis."
25
26 Q. Wewillgotothatshortly.
27 A. Imean,hedidn'tgotothefulllevellaterfor
28 chiyuvim,forsomethingthatIactuallyhadtohave,
29 Idon'tthinkhesaid,"Wearenotgoingtogiveyou
30 there." Butforanythingthatwasatalloptional,not
31 strictlybythebooknecessary,thenheexcludedmefrom
32 that. Soitwasinthatdirection,butnotdirectly,you
33 know,didn'tfitintoaboxwhereyoucouldsay,yes,you
34 areexcommunicatedhere. Itwasn'tlikethat,butthe
35 intentwasveryclear.
36
37 Q. Wewillcometothatinaminute. TheGurewiczyou
38 refertohereinparagraph41,"InapproximatelyMay2012
39 IwastoldbyGurewicz,"whatwashisfirstname?
40 A. Shmuel,orSamueltheother.
41
42 Q. Andheisthesamepersonyouhadtheseconversations
43 withtryingtosetupameetingtodiscuss?
44 A. Correct.
45
46 Q. AndIthinkhadwegottoparagraph43ofyour
47 statement?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6147
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 A. Yes. Doyouwantmetoread?
2
3 Q. Yes,please?
4 A. Gurewiczeventuallyendedourfriendship. Ibelieve
5 thiswasadirectconsequenceofthepressureshefeltby
6 othermembersofthecommunity. Thiswasaverydifficult
7 timeforbothmywifeandI. Wefeltourworldalsohis
8 wifewasIsraeliaswellandthatwasanother,youknow,an
9 extrathing. Wefeltourworldwasflippedupsidedown.
10 EveryaspectofourlivesinvolvedtheYeshivahcommunity.
11 Welivedacrosstheroad. Itfeltlikeweweresuddenly
12 reducedtonothing,andhadlostallourfriends. Canyou
13 pleasereadthelastsentence?
14
15 Q. Yes,Iwilltakeover:
16
17 Thiscausedimmenseemotionalpainand
18 traumaforme.
19
20 WithintheYeshivahCentrethereisa
21 publicSabbathreadingoftheTorahscrolls
22 everySaturday. OntheSabbathof9June
23 2012IwasentitledbyChabadcustomto
24 haveareading,asmyJewishbirthdaywas
25 duringthecomingweek. Chabadisvery
26 particularaboutthiscustom,asopposedto
27 otherJewishgroups. On8June2012Iwas
28 toldbyRabbiTelsnerthatIwasnotgoing
29 tohavethereadingonthenextday.
30 Isaidtohim,"Whatisthereasonfor
31 that?" Hereplied,"Idonothavetogive
32
youareasonformydecisions."
33
Afewdayslater Rabbi Telsner stated in an
34
interviewonJWire, an internet based
35
JewishNewsservice, that "There is no
36
obligationtogrant someone an aliyah. The
37
decisionismade in our congregation by the
38
rabbiandthegabais. To give Mr Waks an
39
aliyahwasnot deemed appropriate." I was
40
toldbyMordyEngel, a member of the
41
Yeshivahcommunity and the person who
42
advisespeople that they are to receive an
43
aliyahpriorto synagogue, and by Hershel
44
Herbst,thehead of the Yeshivah Shule
45
Committee,that Rabbi Telsner had given a
46
psaknottogive me an aliyah. As I had
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6148
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 heardthemediareportandhaditconfirmed
2 byEngelandHerbst,Irealisedthatindeed
3 thiswasadeliberatesteptowards
4 excommunicationfromtheYeshivah
5 community. Thishascausedimmense
6 emotionalpainandtraumaformyfamilyand
7 me.
8
9 IfIcanjustask,youunderstooda"psak"tobea
10 ruling,didyounot?
11 A. Yes,psakisjustawordforareligiousdecision.
12 Whenyouask,"Isthelawthiswayorthatway,"that's
13 whatitis. Sotheywouldhavegonetohim. Theywould
14 havebeenafraidtodoitontheirown,perhapsinonecase
15 afraidtogivemeandperhapsintheothercaseafraidnot
16 togiveme. Anyway,soletitbeontherabbi'shead. He
17 willgiveaJewishlawdecision.
18
19 Q. IfRabbiTelsnerhadasheadrabbigivenapsak,that
20 wouldprohibitthegivingofanaliyahbythecommittee?
21 A. Yes,itwouldcoverthemandprohibitit,yes.
22
23 Q. Theword"gabai"thatisreferredtohere
24 A. Abeadle,awarden. Thewarden. Igavealistof
25
26 Q. Yes,Iknow,Ihaveit. Iwasjustaskingyoutosay
27 it?
28 A. Sorry.
29
30 Q. Allright. Doyouwantmetoreadon?
31 A. Yes. Isthatokay?
32
33 Q. That'sperfectlyfine. Doyoufeelokaytogoon?
34 A. Yes,I'mfine.
35
36 Q. Youstate:
37
38 On3March2013,Irequestedanaliyah,the
39 ritualhonourofgettingcalleduptothe
40 TorahontheSabbathfollowingthebirthof
41 mygrandchild.
42
43 On11March2013Ireceivedanemailfrom
44 theYeshivahShuleCommittee. Itstated
45 thatthecommitteewouldnotgivemean
46 aliyah. Theemailsaidthat,"Theblatant
47 disrespectthatyouhaveshowntoRabbi
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6149
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Telsnerincludingregularlywalkingout
2 duringhisdroshosandreferringtohimon
3 numerousoccasions,includingmost
4 recently,inanopenlettertothe
5 community,as"Telsner"asopposedtoRabbi
6 Telsner,isoneofthefactorsthatthe
7 GabboimandShuleCommitteewilltakeinto
8 accountinallocatingaliyahsthatarenot
9 chiyuvum.
10
11 Whichmeansnotrequired?
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. CanIaskfortab105,documentYSV.0001.001.0442to
15 bebroughtup,please. Thisistheemailyourefertoas
16 havingreceivedastheirresponsetowhyyouweren't
17 gettingthehonours?
18 A. Mmhm.
19
20 Q. CanIaskyouthis. IntheJewishfaithistheTorah
21 itself,thebookitself,consideredverysacred?
22 A. Yes,themostholy. TheactualTorahscrollis
23 unbelievablyholy,yes. Youdon'teventouchit,like,
24 directly.
25
26 Q. Soistheprocessofbeingcalleduptoreadfromit
27 consideredanimmensehonourorsomebighonourthatis
28 grantedtopeopleinthecommunity?
29 A. Yes. Thetruthofthematteristhatthesedaysit
30 becomes,youknow,peoplearen'tsortofsitting
31 thereonceyou'reinanultraOrthodoxcommunityyou
32 don'tthinkaboutitsomuchthatway. It'sanhonourand
33 it'ssomethingthat'sgoodtodo,butyoudon'tperhaps
34 havethesamehugethingthatsomeone,anonregulargoer,
35 mighthave. Butit'saveryimportantthingandthe
36 refusalofitishuge. Itisverygreatintrinsicallyand
37 it'sveryimportantandtheword"aliyah"itselfmeans
38 goingup,andit'stakentomeannotjustbecausetheplace
39 whereyougouptoisaraisedplace,soyouareactually
40 walkingupforthereading,butitalsohasaconnotation
41 ofaspiritualelevation. Soit'sjustagreatthingand
42 youalwaysdoitbeforeyougoawayonatriporbefore
43 allsortsofnotjustfestiveoccasionsbutimportant
44 occasions,comingbackfromatrip,goingawayforatrip,
45 beforeanoperation,youwouldalwaysgetthis,ifatall
46 possible,iftherewasextraonesavailable.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6150
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Andthereforewhatdoesitmeanorwhatdiditmeanto
2 younottobepermittedornottobecalledup?
3 A. Itwasonmanylevels. Oneisthatyouarenot
4 gettingthisgoodthing,andthesecondthingisitisan
5 absoluteslapintheface. It'sunderstoodthere'sa
6 problem. There'saproblem. Butithasalreadybeen
7 statedopenlythattherewasaproblemwithme. Iwas
8 inappropriate. Soit'snotnews.
9
10 Q. Let'sexaminewhattheresponsewas. Thisisthe
11 emailfromtheYeshivahshul:
12
13 DearZephaniah,thankyouforyouremail
14 dated3March.
15
16 Youhaveaskedforanassurancethatyou
17 willbetreatedthesameasallothersin
18 theShulewithregardtoreceivingan
19 aliyahfollowingthebirthofagrandchild.
20
21 Backin2013howmanygrandchildrendidyouhavethen?
22 A. Quiteafew.
23
24 Q. Roughly? Twenty,30?
25 A. Eighteen,somethinglikethat,yes.
26
27 Q. Onprioroccasionshadyoualwaysbeengrantedan
28 aliyahonthebirthofyourgrandchild?
29 A. Withoutfail,withintheconstraintofthereareonly
30 eightandweneveraddanyextraones. Someotherplaces
31 do. Sothereareeight. Sopeoplethathavetoaccording
32 toJewishlawget,getfirst. Butbyusthenextoneis
33 probablyabirthday,butthebirthofagrandchildisalso
34 rightupthere. Sothisisoneofthenormalones. It
35 neverhappenedbeforethatiftherewaseightandifIwas
36 inthelistofpeoplethatcouldbegettingit,Iwouldbe
37 consideredjustlikeanybodyelse.
38
39 Ishouldpointoutthatthiswasverycarefully
40 scrutinisedwhogotandwhodidn't,becauseIcanthink
41 aboutinterestingtimeswhere,forinstance,ifitwas
42 betweensomebodywhohadabirthofagrandchildandlet's
43 sayaverywealthymemberofthecommunitythatwasgoing
44 awayonatrip,sowhatwouldyoudobetweenthosetwo?
45 Iwillletyouguess.
46
47 Q. Allright. Therearethensome,whatarecalled
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6151
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 mandatedaliyahs?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Mustbegiven. That'stheonecalled"chiyuv". I
5 willreadon:
6
7 ThepolicyoftheYeshivahShuleisto
8 allocatealiyahstomispallelimwhoarein
9 apositionofachiyuv. Theallocationof
10 othernonchiyuvaliyahsisatthe
11 discretionoftheGabboimandShule
12 Committeeandtheytakearangeoffactors
13 intoaccountinexercisingthatdiscretion.
14 Inthissituation,theblatantdisrespect
15 thatyouhaveshowntoRabbiTelsner
16 includingregularlywalkingoutduringhis
17 droshosandreferringtohimonnumerous
18 occasions,includingmostrecentlyinan
19 openlettertothecommunity,as"Telsner"
20 asopposedtoRabbiTelsner,isoneofthe
21 factorsthattheGabboimandShule
22 Committeewilltakeintoaccount.
23
24 Firstly,didyouwalkoutofRabbiTelsner'ssermonsdid
25 youwalkoutduringhissermons?
26 A. Okay. Ihavetomakenowpriortohisbigsermon
27 againstme,priortothatandafterthat. Afterthat,
28 IthinkingeneralwheneverhemadeasermonImadeapoint
29 ofwalkingout,regardlessofwhatitwas,andthat's
30 afterwardsandthat'sunderstandableandIdon'trecoil
31 fromthat. TheproblemisthatbeforethatIdidwalkout
32 plentyoftimes,butthatwasbasedonarequestfromhim.
33 IhadpreviouslyIalwaysusedtostayinpresermonsand
34 Iprayatadifferentspeed,thisiswellknown. Thereare
35 afewothersinthecommunitythatdoit,butIprayata
36 differentspeed,abitslowerthanothers,andoftenit
37 wouldbethere'spartsoftheprayerwhereyouhaveto
38 standandpartswhereyousitdown. Soitcameoutoften
39 thatwhenhissermoncameattheendoftheprayers,Iwas
40 stillinprayersanditwouldbeatatimewhenIhadto
41 standuporsitdown. Sothat'swhatusedtohappen.
42
43 Atacertainstage,beforethewholebusinesswith
44 troublestartedherewithus,oneofthemembersofthe
45 Shulecommitteewroteanarticleinoneofthetheyhada
46 synagoguejournalthatusedtocomeout,withinteresting
47 articles,generalarticlesorparticulararticles,and
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6152
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 someonewroteanarticletodowithlackofrespectbeing
2 showntotherabbianditwasmentioningapersonthatused
3 tostandupduringtherabbi'ssermonasamarkof
4 disrespecttohimandeverythinglikethat. WhenIsawit,
5 Isaid,"Oh,that'sfunny." Ididn'tthinkitmeantmeat
6 all. Thisguywasafriendofmine. Ithoughthewould
7 havespokentomeifthat'swhathemeant. Isaidtothe
8 guy,"Idon'tknowwhoyoumeant,"butIsaid,"ButI'm
9 doingthat." Hesaid,"No,Ididn'tmeanyou." This
10 personstandsuptheplacewherehestandsupislikein
11 themiddleofthesynagogue,soanybodylookingatthe
12 rabbiwillseehimstandingupinfront. I'mrightonthe
13 rightattheveryfront,soI'mnotinthesameviewandit
14 won'tbetakenthatway. Isaid,"Youknow,isthatwhat
15 theywant,theydon'twantthepersontostandup?" Sothe
16 twoofus,asfarasIremember,thetwoofuswent
17 togethertoaskRabbiTelsner,youknow,"Thisisan
18 articlewritteninthejournal. Doyouwantmetogoout?"
19 Hesaid,"Yes,IwouldpreferyoutogoIwouldlikeyou
20 togooutoftheroom. Aplacewhereyouhavetostandup,
21 ifyouknowyouaregoingtohavetostandupatacertain
22 placeinprayer,betteryougooutofthesynagogue." So
23 that'swhatIstarteddoingafterthat. IfIknewIwas
24 goingtohaveto,Iwouldgooutthenbeforehissermon,
25 andifIknewIcouldstayinIwouldsometimesstayin,be
26 prayingbutsittingdown,dependingwhereIwasandIknew
27 howlong,moreorless,thesermonwouldbe. Sothiswasa
28 requestfromhimtogooutforthesermons,atthatstage.
29 Notlater,that'strue.
30
31 Q. Sobeforethebigsermon,asyourefertoit,this
32 processofdependingonwhereyouwereinyourprayercycle
33 mayhavenecessitatedorledtoyouleaving?
34 A. Fiftypercentofthetime.
35
36 Q. Duringthatperiodwereyoustillreceivingaliyahs?
37 A. Yes,ofcourse.
38
39 Q. Afterthesermon,thebigsermonasyouhavecalled
40 it,youthenmadeapointofleavingwhenevertherabbigot
41 up?
42 A. Correct. Ifeltcompletelyjustifiedinthat.
43
44 Q. Fromthattimeondidyoureceivealiyahs?
45 A. Ican'tremember. Oneofthemwouldhavebeenalmost
46 forsure,yes. Ijustdon'tremember.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Butatthetimeofthisemailin2013,inMarch,at
2 thatstageyouwererequestingaliyahsonevents
3 A. Yes.
4
5 Q. attimesandyouwerenotgettingaliyahsthen?
6 A. Correct,correct. Isaidthatitwentbygradation,
7 justthethumbscrewswereturningthewholetime,because
8 theyweren'thavingthedesiredeffect. That'sthewaywe
9 sawit. Becauseotherpeoplehavetoldmeaswellinthe
10 communitythattheythoughtthatwe'dbackdown,youknow,
11 fromdayone,abitofpressurehere,awarningabout
12 excommunication. That'showitwasseenbysomepeople.
13 "Putthepressureon. Theywilldisappear. Itwillgo
14 away."
15
16 Q. Isthathowitwasseenbyyou?
17 A. Thattheythoughtthat?
18
19 Q. Ordidyouthinkthattheywereescalatingpressureor
20 didyouthinkthingswerebeingescalated?
21 A. IjustsawitaswhatIexpected. Ididn'treally
22 thinkofitasescalation. Ijustthoughtitwas
23 escalationinonlythatnewthingsgotaddedwhenthey
24 came. Sowhenitcameasarequestforanaliyah,that's
25 nowaddedtoit. I'mnotsayingtheydecided,"Todaywe
26 willgivehimanaliyahforthatandtomorrowwewon't."
27 It'sjustanythingnewthatcameup,itjustgotescalated.
28
29 Q. Inthisemaildidthecommitteeadviseyouthatthey
30 wouldnotprovideyouwithanynonchiyuvaliyah,inthe
31 thirdparagraph?
32 A. Yes.
33
34 Q. Soanythingotherthanwhatwasstrictlymandated
35 A. Whichwasonceayearformyfather'sanniversary.
36 Thatwouldbetheonlymandatedone,onceayear.
37
38 Q. Soweretheytellingyouthat,otherthanthat,you
39 wouldgetnodiscretionaryaliyahs?
40 A. "Doesnotproposetoprovideyou." That'swhatit
41 sayshere,yes. Becausethatwouldhavebeenastepfor
42 them,torefusethemandatoryone. Imean,thereIcansay
43 tothem,"Hey,whatareyoudoing?"Thentheywouldhave
44 hadtomakeanopendecision,perhaps,ofsaying"Weare
45 puttingyouinthis." Soitwasplayingbothsidesof
46 theyes.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6154
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Thentheysayfurther:
2
3 Wecanassureyouthatanyothermispallel
4 whohadshownsuchdisrespecttotherabbi
5 oftheShulewouldbetreatedthesameway.
6 However,ifyouweretocommittochange
7 yourbehaviouranddemonstrateappropriate
8 respecttotheRabbioftheShule,that
9 wouldbefavourablytakenintoaccountby
10 theGabboimandShuleCommitteein
11 exercisingtheirdiscretioninallocating
12 aliyahsthatarenotchiyuvim.
13
14 Pleaseletusknowifyouarepreparedin
15 futuretoactinarespectfulmanner
16 towardsRabbiTelsnersothatthismatter
17 canberesolvedinatimelyfashion.
18
19 A. Mmhm.
20
21 Q. Didyourespondtothecommittee?
22 A. I'mprettysureIdid. Ican'tseeitinfrontofme,
23 butifyoushowme.
24
25 Q. CanIshowyouyouremailof11March2013,tab106,
26 andRingtailYSV.0001.001.0443?
27 A. Isitverysoonafter,justtomakeiteasyforme?
28
29 Q. Itellyouthedates. Iknowitisdifficult. Their
30 emailisreceivedat2.18pmintheafternoonandat6.21
31 pmthatnightyousentthat,sofourhourslater?
32 A. SoIrespondedprettyquicklytowhatevertheywere
33 askingfor,becausetherewasprobablysomelevelof
34 urgencytoit,yes.
35
36 Q. Yourespond,asyouhaveindicatedinyourevidence
37 here,explainingfirstly,ifyoucanjusthavealookat
38 paragraph1,Iwon'treadthewholedocumentout,thatyou
39 donotwalkoutduringhisdroshos,youwalkoutbeforehe
40 starts. What'sthedifferencethere?
41 A. Well,Iwasn'tgettingupinthemiddle. That
42 wouldbeveryobvioustoeverybody. Beforehestarts,they
43 havejustputtheTorahscrollsbackintheark. Everybody
44 isstandingupandwanderingaround. Plentyofother
45 peopleareleavingthesynagogue. Imusttellyouthatas
46 well. Peopleatthebackaremakingthemselvesgoingand
47 thatbecameawholeproblem. Theyweregoingandtheywere
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 goingandeatinganddrinkinginanotherroom,even
2 peopleIthinkIsayitlatersomewheresomeoneonthe
3 boardorontheboardoftheShulecommitteewasgoingout
4 andtakingpartinthis. Thatwasblatantdisrespect,to
5 nothearthesermon. Iwasdoingitforacompletely
6 differentreason. Soitwasn'tnoticeablethatIwasgoing
7 outunlessyouwerelookingforit,becausealotofpeople
8 werewalkingaroundandgoingoutandwalkinginandoutof
9 doorsuntileverythingquieteneddownandhegotuptomake
10 thesermon.
11
12 Q. Butinanyeventyouwere,accordingtoyourown
13 evidence,sincethebigsermonmakingapointofleaving?
14 A. Correct.
15
16 Q. Inparagraph2:
17
18 IampreparedtocommittotreatingRabbi
19 Telsnerwithrespectduetohimin
20 accordancewithShulchanAruch.
21
22 A. Yes. ThatmeansthebookofJewishlaw.
23
24 Q. Yes:
25
26 AndIwillalsorefertohimpubliclyas
27 RabbiTelsnerinfuture,allprovidedyou
28 settlethematter
29
30 inaccordancewithwhatyousayinparagraph3below.
31 CanIaskyouthis:Whatwasthispubliccorrespondencein
32 whichyourefertotherabbias"Telsner"ratherthan
33 "RabbiTelsner"? Doyouknowwhatthatwas?
34 A. Idon'tknow,butIcanonlyassumecertainlyafter
35 thebigafterthebigdroshaIhadnoqualmsabout
36 referringtohimdifferently,notasRabbiTelsner,and
37 therehadbeenanissueinthepastwhereImayhavealso
38 donethesamething. I'mnotcertain.
39
40 Q. Couldyoureadthepartofyourparagraph2fromthe
41 thirdlinedown,commencing,"Iwouldliketoplaceon
42 record"?
43 A. Yes:
44
45 Iwouldliketoplaceonrecordthatany
46 disrespectshownRabbiTelsnerwasin
47 responsetomebeingtheobjectofpublic
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6156
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 abuseinafieryShabbesdrosho,andmy
2 hearingthatRabbiTelsnerhascalledmea
3 "moser". CouldIpleasehaveinyour
4 writtenresponseadeclarationfrom,oron
5 behalfof,RabbiTelsnerthatIamnota
6 moser. Ifthisundertakingcannotbemade,
7 thenIwishtoproceedtoaDinTorahon
8 thismatter.
9
10 ThatmeansacourtofJewishlawonthismatter. Isit
11 possiblejustsothatIcanlookback?
12
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. Isitpossibletogethardcopy?
15
16 Q. Yes,Iwillgetyouahardcopy. It'smucheasier.
17 Wewillhandthatovertoyou.
18 A. Andtherequestthatthiswasinresponseto. Ineed
19 bothofthem. Whereistheoriginalone?
20
21 Q. Doyoumeanyourinitialrequestforaliyah?
22 A. No,okay,don'tworryaboutit. I'mwritingtohim
23 andI'mwantingtheirwrittenresponsetome. Okay,that's
24 fairenough. Idon'tneedtoseeanythingmore. That's
25 fine. SoI'mcommittingheretotreathimwithrespectdue
26 toShulchanAruch. It'squitecarefullywordedandit
27 wasn'ttobetrickyoranythinglikethat. It'sjust
28 ShulchanAruchhasacertaindemand. Hehadtheandmany
29 rabbisdo,manypeopledohewantedperhapsextrahonour
30 giventohim,whichwasn'tdemandedbyJewishlaw. Well,
31 youknow,that'suptome. IfIthinkhe'saniceguyand
32 Iwanttogivehimextra,Ido,butthenyoucan'tgoand
33 punishmeifIdon'tgivehimwhatI'mnotrequiredtogive
34 him. That'swhatthatwasallabout. What'srequiredby
35 JewishlawIwillgivehim. What'snotdemandedIdon't
36 committogivehim.
37
38 Q. Yes,Iunderstand. Hadyouheardinthisemailyou
39 write"andmyhearingthatRabbiTelsnerhascalledmea
40 moser"?
41 A. Yes,Idon'trememberthat. ButifIhavewrittenit
42 here,ithappened. Someonemusthavetoldmethathehas
43 actuallyreferredtomeinconversationwithsomeoneasa
44 moser. Yes,Idon'tknow;Iassumethatitwasadifferent
45 occasion,yes. Idon'tknowwhenitwasandwhatitwas.
46
47 Q. YouaskedforadeclarationfromoronbehalfofRabbi
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Telsnerthatyouwerenotamoser?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Didyoueverreceivethat?
5 A. No,whichspeaksvolumes.
6
7 Q. Andyousaidthatifyoudidnotgetthatundertaking
8 youwishedtoproceedtoaDinTorah?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 Q. Andthenyoudealfurtherinparagraph3
12 A. Doyouunderstandtheimplication? That'savery
13 majorthing. Thatmeans,"Youareaccusingmeofthis.
14 I'mgivingyouatotallyJewishlawanswertoit." Quite
15 reasonableandcompletelywithinaccordanceofJewishlaw,
16 whichcanbeconfirmedbytherabbis. Idon'tgetan
17 answeronitandtheydon'tdoit. Afterwards,whenIdo
18 trytogotoaDinTorahwiththemonwhateveritis,they
19 justignoreit. Theyarenotinterested.
20
21 Q. Wasthatinrelationtoyourbeliefthatyouwere
22 entitledtoanaliyah? Isthatwhatyouwantedtotaketo
23 theDinTorah?
24 A. No,no,no. No.
25
26 Q. Orinrelationto
27 A. No,inrelationtohimcallingmeamoser. That's
28 exactlywhatitwasabout,notaboutIwantedthemto
29 givemeadeclarationtheyaregoingtogivemeanaliyah
30 andeverythinglikethat. ThatIdon'tneedaDinTorah
31 about. ButifhepersistsinnotwantingtosaythatI'm
32 notamoserandgivingafatwathatI'mnotamoser,then
33 IwanttogotoaDinTorahwithhimtogetadeclaration
34 fromaJewishcourtthatIamnotamoser,whichwouldhave
35 beengiven.
36
37 Q. Wasitofgraveconcerntoyouthattheheadrabbiof
38 thecommunityinwhichyoulivedwascallingyouamoserto
39 otherpeople?
40 A. 100percent,atthesametimewhenheissayingasif
41 "Gotothepoliceandhelpthem." Exactly. Andeverybody
42 isbuyingthestory. Thatwasparticularlyfrustrating.
43 Andtheyareputtingouttheprincipalisputtingout
44 memossaying,"Wearecooperating. Wearedoing
45 everything." Andyouhavethesetwoseparatestrandsgoing
46 atthesametime. Thisinfactisoneofthereally,
47 reallyimportantthings. Isaid,"SayI'mnotamoser.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Makeitpublic,orlet'sgoanddoaDinTorahifyouthink
2 Ireallyam." Andnothingisdone.
3
4 Q. Wewilltalkaboutthatprocessbecauseyouinfactdo
5 gobackandtrytogetthisprocesstoaDinTorah,don't
6 you?
7 A. That'sright. Exactly.
8
9 Q. Thenyougoontodiscusstheissueofyouraliyahand
10 seekingvariousguaranteesinrelationtothealiyahifyou
11 behave. ButIwanttocomenowifIcan,please,tothe
12 issueoftheDinTorahsinceit'sbeenraised. Yousayin
13 yourstatement,paragraph49andfollowing,andIwilltake
14 youtoit,thatinMarch2013youtriedtomediatethe
15 matterinrelationtoyourdisputewithRabbiTelsnerand
16 Herbstinarabbinicalcourt?
17 A. I'msorry?
18
19 Q. Paragraph49ofyourstatement?
20 A. Sorry. Yes.
21
22 Q. Whathappenedwhenyouaskedtotaketheissuethat
23 hadarisenforyouabouthearingyourbeingcalledamoser
24 toaDinTorah?
25 A. Well,theydeclinedtoparticipate. Idon'tremember
26 ifitwasbecausetheysaidnoortheyjustdidn'tanswer.
27 Idon'trememberwhatitwas. IthenapproachedRabbi
28 YosefBlau,whoisaspiritualmentoratYeshivah
29 UniversitywhichisaseriousuniversityinNewYork,very
30 serious,andheisaveryseniorrabbiinAmerica. The
31 reasonIapproachedhimwasthatIknewthathehimself
32 understoodtheseissuesverywell,havingmadeamistakeas
33 ajudgeonaJewishcourtseveralyearsearlierwherethey
34 excludedevidencemorethan10yearsold,notrealisingthe
35 lengthoftimethat'srequiredinsexualabusecases,
36 especiallyofmen,andsothattheyunwittinglyalloweda
37 perpetratortocontinueoffending,andonceherealised
38 that,hedidwhatwastherightthing. Herepentednot
39 onlyinhisheart,buthetookitonhimselfinfutureto
40 actuallyhelpwhereverhecouldincaseswherethissortof
41 thingwashappening,whereguyswouldbegoingfreeor
42 what. Heundertooktohelptopointoutclearlywhatthe
43 positionofJewishlawwas,togiveadvicetopeople,to
44 helptheminanywaypossible.
45
46 SoIknewthathehadthissituationandIknewalso
47 hewasaveryseniorrabbi,thatevenhewasn'tfrom
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Chabad,theycouldn'tjustbrushhimoffasanothing,he
2 wasn'tfluffatall,andthat'swhyIapproachedhim.
3 Miraculouslyhedidn'twanttotakeitonbecausehesaida
4 lotoftimeswhenpeoplegototheDinTorahyousee,the
5 typeofDinTorahalso,it'scalledazablo. It'snotthat
6 there'sastandingcourt. It'slikeanadhoccourt,you
7 wouldsay. Ihaveadisputewithyou,Ipicksomeone,a
8 judge,youpickajudgeandthetwojudgespickathird
9 guy,sowenowhavethree. It'squiteaniceidea. So
10 Ipickedhimandhesaidthatpeoplemisinterpretandthey
11 thinkbecausehe'stheguythatIpickedhemaygoalong
12 withme. Isaid,"No,Iunderstandthat. Ijustwantyou
13 todotherightthing. I'mpickingyoubecauseIrelythat
14 youaregoingtodotherightthing."
15
16 Soheeventuallyagreedwithme,eventhoughhedidn't
17 wanttodoit,buthesaid,"Yes,Iwilldoit." Sohe
18 agreed. Weputout,notinstrictlythetotally
19 100percentlegalform,butitwasenough. Imean,emails
20 arenewandeverythinglikethat. SoifIwriteonhis
21 behalfandheiscc'din,eventhoughtechnicallyheshould
22 havewrittenit,he'saverybusymanandIdidafavourby
23 mewritingtheinvitationforthemtocometotheDinTorah
24 andhewascc'din,andthatwasonlyusedlaterasan
25 objectionastowhyitwasn'taproperinvitationtothe
26 BethDinwhichtheycouldthenrefuseandinsistona
27 differentthingaltogether.
28
29 Q. Whatyouwantedwastohavesomeoneassistyouwith
30 whatwasdevelopingintoareallybigproblemwiththe
31 YeshivahcommitteeandRabbiTelsner?
32 A. Well,hewasn'tthepersonwhowasgoingtoassistme.
33 HewasonlygoingtobeIwantedtoconveneaJewish
34 courtthatwouldgivethisclearpsakdin,cleardirection
35 inJewishlawthatIamnotamoser. Ifhewouldhavedone
36 it,Iwouldn'thavehadtodoallthis.
37
38 Q. IwillaskyoutohavealookatyouremailofI
39 willleavethat. Wasitalsotoresolveboththemoser
40 issueandalsotheissueoftheallocationofaliyah,both
41 issues?
42 A. Ican'tsaythatthesecondonewasonmymindsomuch
43 becauseitwouldhavedroppedaway. OnceIdidn'tbecomea
44 moser,whatgroundswouldtheyhaveImean,Ihave
45 alreadymentionedthebusinessaboutwalkingout,andif
46 Iwasn'tamoser,sowhatwouldbethegrounds?
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6160
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 Q. Sotheoriginalconcernyouhadwasaliyahandthen
2 youheardaboutbeingcalledamoserandthenthemoser
3 becamethemotivatingfactor?
4 A. 100percent. Itbecamenowareasontogetitoutin
5 theopenandsettlethismatteroneandforall,which
6 Iknewhadtobesettled. Itwasn'tjustforme. Itwas
7 quitecleartomethewholewaythrough,andespecially
8 afterhearingthis,andifthat'swhathe'sdoingandeven
9 ifheisputtingthingsonthewall,ifhe'ssayingI'ma
10 moser,asRabbiGlickoncesaid,"Someonesneezesin
11 Yeshivahandeverybodyknowsaboutit,"soeverybodyis
12 goingtoknowhe'ssayingthataboutmeandaboutmyson
13 andsotheyarenotgoingtowanttocomeforward. It'sas
14 simpleasthat. Soitwasjustthewholesituationwas
15 ridiculous.
16
17 Q. Soletmeunderstandtheprocessthen. Youaskedfor
18 thistogotoaDinTorah. Theyrefusedtoparticipate.
19 Youthenseekpermissiontogooutsideofthe
20 A. That'sright. WehadafewinterchangesIthinkof
21 emailsandRabbiBlautherewasatimeconstraintbecause
22 Iwantedtogetallthisresolvedbeforethealiyah. The
23 aliyahwasjustthetrigger. Beforethealiyah,whenit
24 wouldbetoolate,soiftheyweren'tgoingtodoit,
25 that'swhytherewasatimelimitonitandifthere
26 wasn't,theydidn'tcomeback,soRabbiBlausaid,even
27 thougheverythingwouldberesolvedafter,hesaid,"Yes,
28 youcangoahead,"andhetoldmethat,"Theyarenot
29 serious. Whicheverwaywemove,theyarenotgoingto
30 come. Theyarejustnotinterested."
31
32 Q. CanIhavealookatdocument104,YSV.0001.001.0444.
33 That'sinfacttheemailyourefertoreceivingfromRabbi
34 Blau?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. Givingyoupermissiontogooutsidethenormal
38 rabbinicalchannelstohavethisdisputedetermined?
39 A. That'scorrect. NowI'mrememberingIhadsaid,
40 "Unfortunatelyyouwereinformedthattheywouldn'ttake
41 thecase,"soIthinkMelbournesaidtheydidn'tdoit,I
42 thinkSydneycouldn'tgetinvolved. Sothenormalstanding
43 rabbinicalcourtswouldn'tdoit.
44
45 Q. Justanswermethis,ifyoudon'tmind. The
46 rabbinicalcourtswereaplacewhereJewishdisputescould
47 bedeterminedwithinthecommunity?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6161
Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 A. Correct.
2
3 Q. Andyouwereseekingtoinvitetherabbiandthe
4 committeetothatprocesstoresolvethisdisputethathad
5 arisenforyou,firstlyinrelationtothealiyahand,
6 secondly,whichmaybethensupersededyourconcerns,
7 hearingyouwerebeingcalledamoser,butthat'swhatyou
8 wantedto
9 A. Youbringupthebusinessaboutthealiyah. Ijust
10 don'tremember.
11
12 Q. That'sokay. Leavethedetail. Butinanyeventyou
13 wantedtoinvitetherabbiandthecommitteetoparticipate
14 inthisrabbinicalcourttohelpyoudetermine,togeta
15 properdeterminationaboutwhetherwhatwashappeningwas
16 permittedaccordingtoJewishlaw?
17 A. Correct. Itwouldhavedealtwitheverything,that's
18 correct.
19
20 Q. Andtheyrefusedtoparticipate?
21 A. Correct.
22
23 Q. Whotoldyoutheywouldn'tparticipate?
24 A. I'mprettysurethere'sanemailaboutsomewhere.
25
26 Q. Doyourememberwhotoldyouornot? Iwilltakeyou
27 toitifyoudon't;that'sfine.
28 A. Ijustdon'tremember.
29
30 Q. Letmebringup,please,theresponseofthe
31 committee,signed"YeshivahShuleCommittee",tab108,
32 please,documentYSV.0001.001.0446_R. Iwillreadthe
33 document:
34
35 DearZephaniah. Asexplainedearlier,the
36 policyofYeshivahShuleistoallocate
37 aliyastomispallelimwhoarein
38 apositionofachiyuv. Theallocationof
39 other"nonchiyuv"aliyasisatthe
40 discretionoftheGabboimandShule
41 Committeeandtheytakearangeoffactors
42 intoaccountinexercisingthatdiscretion.
43 Wearethereforenotinapositionto
44 guaranteetoanymispallelthattheywill
45 haveanaliyawhentheyhaveasimchaor
46 returnfromoverseas. Inrelationtothe
47 writtenstatementthatyouareseeking,we
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 arenotinapositiontomakea
2 declarationaboutaperson'sactions.
3
4 That'swhatyouunderstoodareferencetoyourrequestthat
5 therebeadeclarationthatyouarenotamoser?
6 A. Yes,thattheyshouldsayitaswell,that'sright.
7
8 Q. Continuing:
9
10 TheShuleCommitteehasmadeitsposition
11 onaliyasverycleartoyouandnouseful
12 purposecanbeservedbyacontinuationof
13 correspondencebetweenusregardingthis
14 matter. Pleasenotethattherequestto
15 attendaDinTorahthatyouissuedwasnot
16 aproperHazmonah. Shouldwereceiveany
17 Hazmonah,asaChabadLubavitchinstitution
18 weinsisttohavethismatterheardbefore
19 theVaadRabboneiLubavitchHaKlollitobe
20 conductedinMelbourne. Pleasealsonote
21 thattheShuleisconsideringitsposition
22 inrelationtoYorehDeahSiman243,a
23 matterwhichwedonottakelightly.
24
25 Whatwasthatareferenceto?
26 A. That'sthedeferenceandhonourduetoascholar,
27 abouthonouringascholar,whichImentioned,perhapsmaybe
28 makingareferencetothat,whenIsaidaccordingto
29 ShulchanAruchorJewishlawIwillgivehimthehonour
30 required. Sotheyareconsideringthat'sinteresting.
31 "PleasealsonotethattheShuleisconsideringits
32 positioninrelationtothat",honouringthescholar,"a
33 matterwhichwedonottakelightly."That'swhattheyare
34 referringto,butIdon'tknowwhattheymeanbythat.
35
36 MSGERACE: YourHonour,couldIjusthaveamoment? An
37 issuehasjustarisenattheBartable. Thereisawitness
38 ImentionedtoYourHonourwhohassomedifficultyandwe
39 needtointerpose. I'mproposingperhapswemightstopat
40 3.30. WouldYourHonourmindifweinterposethewitness
41 [AVC]at3.30pm?
42
43 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Areyouallrightwiththat,
44 MrWaks?
45 A. Yes.
46
47 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Youappreciatethatwhatthatwill
.03/02/2015(C0061)
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 meanisthatinalllikelihoodyouwouldberequiredto
2 returntomorrow?
3 A. Yes. Iwilldomybest.
4
5 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Thankyou.
6
7 MSGERACE: Wewillseehowfarwegettothisafternoon,
8 YourHonour.
9
10 Q. Yousaidthatthereferenceinthisemailtothe
11 requestwas"notaproperHazmonah". Doesthatreferto
12 theformorthedocument
13 A. It'snotaformbuttheformalprocedure. Youknow,
14 youhavetotickthatbox,thatbox. Itwasn'tasItold
15 you. ItwasIwroteitratherthanhim,butIhavegiven
16 thereasonswhy,andhewascc'din. SoI'mnotputting
17 outmaybeIcouldwritesomeoneinsomeone'sname.
18 That'swhatitwasallabout.
19
20 Q. Butitwassomethingabouttheformoftherequest
21 A. Purelytheform,theexactform. Butitwasnottaken
22 seriously. Weallunderstoodthatitwasn'tserious. It
23 wasn'tthereason.
24
25 Q. Inanyevent,goingbacktoyourstatement
26 A. Imean,whattheyproposed,theplacetheyproposedto
27 gowouldbelike,whatcanIsay,it'sabunchoftheir
28 friends. That'swhowewouldbedealingwith,hisfriends.
29 TheVaadRabboneiLubavitchHaKlolli,thatmeansthe
30 generalrabbinicgroupwithinChabad. Sotheyaregoingto
31 besittingwhenhe'sarguingwithmeandthey'regoingto
32 giveitifthereisanydoubthowit'sgoingtogo,itis
33 notimpartialatall,andinfactwithinChabaditselfin
34 CrownHeightsacoupleofyearsago,whentheyhada
35 problembetweentwomajorgroups,theywentoutsidethe
36 communitytogetajudge,arabbinicaljudgeoutsideofthe
37 community,becauseeverybodyunderstandsit'svery
38 difficulttodoitwithinthecommunity. Everybodyhasall
39 thesethingswe'vebeentalkingabout,therabbisaswell.
40 Theyhavethesamepressuresonthem. Soitwasnonsense.
41 TherefusalbecauseofHazmonahwasnonsenseandthe
42 suggestiontheymadewasnonsense. Itwasjustall
43 nonsense.
44
45 Q. Soyourconcernatthisstagewastheonlyplacethey
46 wouldhavethisDinTorahwasbeforeagroupthatyou
47 consideredtobeverycloselyconnectedwithRabbiTelsner?
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
DoIunderstand your concern?
3
A.
That'scorrect.
4
5
6
Q.
Andyoufelt,yourconcernwasthatitwouldnotbe
7 impartial?
8 A. No,andwhatIhadproposedwasaverystandard
9 method. I'mgettingoneguy,they'regettingoneguyand
10 they'llpickathirdguy.
11
12 Q. Buttheywouldn'tagreetothatprocess?
13 A. No,theydidnotagree. Thatwouldhavebeenthe
14 Jewishlawpositionofdealingwithit. That'swhyItook
15 upafterwardsTelsner,thefactthateitherthereor
16 before,hehadformonthisandinfacttherearerabbis
17 thatcanconfirmthattheyhaveaproblemwithgoingto
18 Jewishcourtsoflawevenwhentheyshouldaccordingto
19 Jewishlaw.
20
21 Q. Youattemptthen,don'tyou,afterreceiving
22 permissionfromRabbiBlau,togooutsidetherabbinical
23 processandtrytocommenceproceedingsbeforethe
24 VictorianEqualOpportunityandHumanRightsCommission,
25 CivilandAdministrativeTribunal,andwhilstbeforethe
26 VictorianCivilandAdministrativeTribunalHumanRights
27 Divisionyousoughtlegaladviceandtheadvicereceivedby
28 youwasthatthattribunalhadnostanding,therewasno
29 remedythatcouldassistyouinrelationtothat?
30 A. Yes,wewouldn'tgetanywhere. Wecouldbringitup
31 anditwasn'tgoingtogoanywhere.
32
33 Q. Thepeoplefromwhomyougotadviceissetoutat
34 paragraph53ofyourstatement. CanItakeyouthentotab
35 114,please,afurtheremail. On29May2014youemailed
36 theYeshivahShule,NechamaBendet,RabbiGlickandRabbi
37 Telsnerandonceagainrequestedanaliyahforyour
38 birthday?
39 A. Yes.
40
41 Q. Wasitcustomaryforyoutoreceiveanaliyahonyour
42 birthday?
43 A. Yes,absolutely. Thereneverwouldhavebeenacase
44 whenIdidn't,andthatwasevenstrongerthanagrandchild
45 inChabad,becausetheRebbemadeaparticularthingabout
46 birthdays,gettinganaliyahforabirthday. TheSabbath
47 beforeorifapersonhadabirthdayontheSabbathitself,
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 theywouldgetonetheweekbeforeandontheSabbath
2 itself. Itwasthatimportant.
3
4 Q. Ithinkyousetouttherethatyouthought:
5
6 Itwouldbeanicegestureofgoodwillto
7 givemeanaliyathisShabbosinthemain
8 shulformybirthdayon25Sivan,asisthe
9 normalChabadcustomasemphasisedbythe
10 Rebbe.
11
12 A. Yes.
13
14 Q. ThatwassomethingthattheRebbehimselfhad
15 emphasised?
16 A. Absolutely. It'sverywellknown.
17
18 Q. Yousayinherethatyouhavenothadanaliyahfor
19 thelastfourbirthsofyourgrandchildrenoryourbirthday
20 theyearbefore;isthatright?
21 A. Itsaysitthere,soI'msureitwasaccurateatthe
22 time,yes.
23
24 Q. Andyouaskthemtorespondtoyouremail. Yousayin
25 yourstatementthatyoudon'trecalleverreceivinga
26 response;isthatright?
27 A. Mmhm.
28
29 Q. CanIask: Followingthisemailon29May2013,did
30 youreceivethealiyahforyourbirthdaythatyouhad
31 requested?
32 A. Idon'tthinkIdid. IjustIdon'tremember. But
33 Idon'tthinkIdid. Itmustbedocumentedsomewhere.
34
35 Q. Allright.
36 A. ThatIdidn't. IthinkIdidn't.
37
38 Q. Let'sgotothesectionofyourstatement,paragraph
39 55andfollowing. Ifyoudon'tmindreadingthataboutthe
40 physicalassaultintheYeshivahCentre?
41 A. On15May2013IwasattheYeshivahCentresynagogue
42 formorningprayersforaJewishfestival,Shavuot. Iwas
43 confrontedandphysicallyassaultedbythemanwhorents
44 thetwoseatsnexttome. Heaccusedoneofmysonsin
45 NewYorkofmakingtroubleforhischildren. Hesaid,
46 "Iwantyoutotalktohimandgethimtostop,I'llget
47 himoverthere. Hewillsuffer,besureaboutthat. I'll
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 gethim. Youthinkyoucandowhateveryouwantaround
2 here."Thatwasthekeybit. Ibelievethiswasa
3 referencetomycooperationwithpoliceinvestigationsand
4 mysupportingMannyspeakingoutpublicly. Thatlast
5 sentence.
6
7 Soagainheretherewasaconflationbetweenmyson,
8 anothersoninNewYorkandme,tothelevelwhereIcould
9 beassaultedinthesynagogue. Thatwasokay. Doyouwant
10 metocontinuenow?
11
12 Q. Yes,please?
13 A. Acoupleoftimesduringthisincidentandshortly
14 thereafter,thesamemanphysicallypushedpastmeusing
15 hishipandshoulder. Hedidnotcausemeanyinjuriesbut
16 Ifeltthathewasusingstandovertacticstointimidate
17 me. Itcausedmegreatemotionaldistress. Bythispoint
18 IfeltveryostracisedfromtheYeshivahcommunity. Ifelt
19 anxiousaboutthisandmadeastatementtopoliceaboutthe
20 incident.
21
22 IwasagainpushedbythesamemaninAugust2013and
23 Ifeltintimidated. Heisaverybigguy. Ibroughtthis
24 incidentandmyconcernsupwiththerelevantleadership
25 personnelinthesynagogueviaemail. Icannotrecallthe
26 individualswhoIsenttheemailto. Idonotrecall
27 receivinganyreply. I'malmostsureIdidnotreceivea
28 reply.
29
30 Imadeafurtherstatementtopoliceinrelationto
31 thisincidenton6August. InthatstatementIsaidthat
32 basedontheexperiencewiththewitnessestotheprevious
33 assaultIwasnotexpectinganyoneinthesynagogueto
34 assistpolicewiththeirinquiriesorconfirmthatthey
35 werewitnessestothisincident.
36
37 Q. Doyoubelievethattheassaultsthatoccurredwere
38 encouragedbywhatwashappeningotherwisewithinthe
39 synagogue?
40 A. Yes,Ibelievethathewasgiventhisisastandover
41 guy. Peoplesaidtomeafter,"Oh,he'sahothead. Just
42 ignorehim." Buthewasastandoverguywithahothead.
43 Hewantstoprovethathe'sreallyfortheorganisation,so
44 he'sgotcarteblanchetodoit. RabbistillconsidersI'm
45 amoserbecauseherefusestogiveanythinginwritingthat
46 I'mnotoreventheydidn'tevencomebackandsay,"He
47 willtellyoubuthewon'twriteit." Nothing. They
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 refusedtogotoaJewishcourtoflaw,soIamamoser.
2 AsIpointoutsomewhereelse,theramificationsofbeinga
3 moseroriginallywere,andithappened;ifyou'rearodef,
4 youareconsideredsomeonewhoischasingaftersomeone
5 else. Youcanbekilledwithoutanyjudicialinterference
6 atall. Thatstigmastillcontinues.
7
8 Q. Allright. Youwrotetothecommitteeandaskedfor
9 themtointerveneanddonotbelieveyoureceivedany
10 response?
11 A. Correct.
12
13 Q. Canyoureadnowonfromparagraph59dealingwith
14 Cyprys'sconvictionandhowthatfeltforyouatthetime?
15 A. Okay. InMay2012Cypryswascommittedtostandtrial
16 inrelationtohisoffencesagainstMannyandothers. He
17 ultimatelypleadedguiltyto12ofthecharges.
18
19 InDecember2013hewassentencedtoanonparole
20 periodoffiveyearsinrelationtothesechargesandfor
21 fivecountsforwhichhehadpreviouslybeenfoundguilty
22
23 Althoughourfamilywasrelievedfollowingthe
24 sentencingofCyprys,becausepeoplehadn'thadtotestify
25 andeverythinglikethat,itwasrelievedinthatrespect,
26 itfeltlikeemptyjoy. Ourfamilywasnoweffectively
27 ostracisedfromtheYeshivahcommunity. Justicewas
28 achievedthroughthecriminalcourts,howevermyfamilyand
29 Iwereleftfeelinghollow.
30
31 Inadditiontotheimmenseemotionalpainandtrauma
32 formeandmyfamilydescribedabove,duringourtrialmove
33 toIsraelinearly2014,thatwasayearago,broughtabout
34 bytheeventsdescribedabove,Isufferedaheartattack,
35 requiringemergencyopenhearttriplebypasssurgeryin
36 Israel,twoweeksbeforewewereduetoreturn. Atthe
37 timeIwasveryfitandapparentlyhealthy,withnoknown
38 medicalconditions. AGP,acardiologistanda
39 psychiatrist,afriend,notatreater,whoknowmewell
40 haveallexpressedtheviewthattheyhavenodoubtthat
41 theeventsdescribedabovecontributedsubstantiallytomy
42 medicalcondition. Infact,Icheckedthatwiththe
43 psychiatristbeforeIinsertedthis,andhestandsbythat
44 statement.
45
46 Q. Readon,ifyouwouldn'tmind?
47 A. Myrecommendations. Takingintoaccountthelong
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 historyofreligiouspersecutionagainstJewishpeople,
2 IamparticularlywaryoftheStateinterferingin
3 religion. However,inmattersoflifeanddeath,including
4 childsexualabuse,thisrulemustbebroken,albeitwith
5 propersafeguards. Ifa"religious"communityhidesbehind
6 false,exaggeratedorevenrealreligiouspreceptsto
7 seriouslyharmpeople,especiallychildren,Ibelievethe
8 Statemustinterfere. Thismayinvolvetreatingthe
9 communityanditsleadersasbeinginvolvedincriminal
10 conspiracyandtheStateshoulddealwiththemasitshould
11 dealwithanyothercriminalconspiracy.
12
13 Thedirectorofthedocumentary"Codeofsilence",
14 AssociateProfessorDannyBenMoshe,haspubliclystated
15 thatseveralpeoplehespoketointhecourseofmakingthe
16 documentary,whichwonaWalkley,toldhimthatthe
17 Yeshivahhadmishandledthewholesexabuseproblemand
18 someexplicitlysaidtheysupportedmyfamily. These
19 peoplewouldnot,however,publiclymakethosestatements
20 orgoontherecordinthedocumentarybecausetheydidn't
21 wanttofacethesameconsequencesthatmyfamilyfaced,
22 namelybeingostracised. Iunderstandthisismorea
23 culturalproblemthanalegalone. Well,Iunderstandthat
24 thereactioniscultural,butIthinkthattheresponse
25 shouldbeperhapslegalifnecessary.
26
27 Somesortofwitnesscompulsionshouldbeconsidered.
28 Inthecaseofanassaultagainstmeinafullsynagogue,
29 whichatthetimecausedsomecongregantstotryandget
30 peopletogooutsidetocontinuetheargumentsthat's
31 whenhewasscreamingatmeandstandingovermealmost
32 everyonesawandheard"nothing". Onewitnesswashonest
33 enoughtotellpolice,afterbeingaskedseveraltimeson
34 thephonebythemtogiveevidence,totellthemthathis
35 answertothemultimatelywas,attheendofaweek,he
36 couldnotgetinvolved. Helaterexplainedtomethathe
37 hadchildrentomarryoff. That'swhyhecouldn't. He
38 didn'tdeny. Hedidn'tanything. Hehadchildrentomarry
39 offandcouldn'tevenspeaktothepolice. NeedIsay
40 more.
41
42 Somethingshouldalsobedonetoensurethat
43 institutionsarefinanciallyandlegallyresponsiblefor
44 theconsequencesoftheiractionsinfailingtoactupon
45 andpreventchildsexualabuse. Theremaybearolefor
46 theAustralianTaxationOfficeinensuringthatthis
47 occurs. IwouldremindpeoplethatAlCaponesatontax
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 chargesratherthanmurder.
2
3 Q. Oneofthethingsforyou,MrWaks,isthatpeoplewho
4 mighthaveprivatelysupportedyouitappearedtoyouwould
5 notcomeforwardpublicly?
6 A. Yes,theycouldn'teventalktomeinthesynagogue.
7 Itwasdangerous.
8
9 Q. Andisthatoneofthereasons,theseeventsthatwe
10 havetalkedabout,ostracisation,peoplenotspeakingto
11 you,isthatwhatledtoyouleavingthecommunity?
12 A. Correct,andultimatelyhavingtoleaveAustralia,
13 becauseMelbourneisverysmall. Everybodyknows
14 everybody. ThereareonlytwosynagoguesinMelbourne
15 Icanfeelcomfortablein. Oneofthemisrunbymyson
16 andoneofthemisadifferentplace,butit'snotvery
17 religiousandit'sadifferentsideoftown. Thereis
18 nowhereinMelbourneIcangowhereIfeelcomfortable
19 wherethereisnotatleastoneortwoorthreepeople
20 lookingatme,talkingtosomebodythroughthesideof
21 theirmouth. InIsraelitselfIhavetobecarefulwhere
22 Igo. Idon'tmixwithAnglosandIdon'tsetfootina
23 ChabadsynagoguebecauseIjustcan't. Ihavehadacase
24 wheremybrotherinlawcametome,helivesinBneiBrak,
25 wheresomeonecametohiminthesynagogueandsaid,"Your
26 brotherinlawisdestroyingtheChabadinMelbourne."
27 Okay? Yougetthepoint.
28
29 Q. Ido. Lastly,justonematterthatcameupyesterday
30 andIwilldealwithit,throughthecommittee. Youhad17
31 children,mostofwhomwereeducatedforthemostpart
32 throughtheschool. Wasitthepracticeatthetimefor
33 theschooltoofferdiscountsinorderforlargefamilies
34 tobeableto
35 A. Yes,inthebeginningtheywerecalleddiscounts. At
36 alaterstageacleverlawyergotinvolvedandtheybecame
37 feedeferments,whereifyoueverhadawindfallyouwould
38 repay. Peopleusedtojokeaboutthis. Peopleunderstood
39 veryclearlywhatthismeant. Youknow,thatmeansifyou
40 owe$1millionnow,whichyoucouldeasily,basedonthe
41 numberofchildrenIhad,andyouwonamilliondollarsin
42 theLotto,youmighthavetopaythewholelot. Itwas
43 justcompletelyundefined. Youmighthavetopayitall
44 over. AsfarasIknow,noonefromcoreChabad,which
45 Iwas,hadeverbeenaskedtopayanythingback.
46 Ibelievedthatitwasjustsomethinggoodforthemtohave
47 therewhichtheymayuse,andtheymayuseitespecially
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 againstnoncoremembersbecauseIhadheardinthepast
2 fromsomeoneveryseniorthattheyweregivingitto
3 onechildfamilies,immigrantsthattheyweretryingto
4 help,thattheywereinfactspendingmoreondogfoodthan
5 theywereoncontributiontoschoolfeesandtheydidn't
6 likethat,andthat'sfine. Idon'thaveanyproblemwith
7 that. Soiftheyfoundoutthatwashappening,itwouldbe
8 reasonableforthemtoaskforsomethingback. Butinour
9 case,asIsaidbefore,youhadtosendyourkidtothat
10 school. Youhadnochoice. Theschoolfeesdidn'trelate
11 atalltothecostofwhatitwascostingtoeducatethe
12 kids. Themoneywasitwasonebigpot,asyouhave
13 alreadyheard. YeshivahCentre,YeshivahSchool,Beth
14 Rivkah,allthesemyriadorganisations,andwhenafriend
15 ofminehadtriedtogetthemtohewantedtopaythe
16 fullamountofschoolfees,buthedidn'twanttheother
17 bitsin. Hewasevenpreparedtopayit,buthewanteda
18 taxfreedonationfortherest. Theyweretalkingabout
19 somethinglike25,000,Ithink,andhesaid,"My
20 calculationisthat,basedonwhatyougetfromthe
21 governmentandwhatitcoststoyou,itshouldbeabout20.
22 SoI'mpreparedtogivetheotherfive,even,butIwanta
23 taxdeductiblereceiptonthatbecauseit'sgoingtoother
24 things." Theyrefusedtodoit. Again,itisonebigpot.
25 Wecouldn'tdoanything,andthat'sthefees,takeitor
26 leaveit.
27
28 Q. MrWaks,canIaskyouthis. Youheardsomeevidence
29 yesterdaythatcausedyousomeconcernaboutnotes,
30 minutes?
31 A. Oh,yes.
32
33 Q. Inameeting?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Iwillbringup,please,thedocumentattab32,
37 YSV.0001.001.0417. Page3. Alotofwhatyourevidence
38 todayhasbeenpage5,please,atthebottom,"Claimby
39 victimsofsexualabuse". Youhavetalkedthroughyour
40 evidencetodayaboutpeopleconflatingManny'sactionswith
41 yourown?
43
44 Q. Whatwasyourreactiontoseeingintheminutesofthe
45 meeting,minutesofthecommitteemeetings,thatin
46 responsetoyoursonissuinglitigationorothersissuing
47 noticesofclaimtotheYeshivahcommunity,asuggestion
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Z WAKS (MsGerace)
1 thatadvicebetakenregardingtheheavilydiscountedfees
2 providedtoyou?
3 A. Imean,again,there'stheconflation. Buttomeeven
4 thebiggerproblemwasthefactthatsomethingthat
5 I'dsuspectedthewholetimeandI'dgiveninevidence,but
6 Ineverhadanyconcreteevidenceofitbecauseitisvery
7 hardtocomeby,thelasttwolinestherewherethey
8 suggestobtainingadviceregardingtheheavilythatwere
9 providedtomeovertheyears. Theimplicationhereisnot
10 onlythattheconflatingmewithhim,butthereare
11 consequences,andthisiswhat'sbeenatthebackof
12 people'smindsthewholetime. Eithertheywereworkingin
13 theschoolortheyhavefamilytiesintheschoolor,as
14 99percentoftheotherpeopleintheschool,theyhave
15 discountedschoolfees. Everybodydid. Iwouldchallenge
16 thattherewouldbemorethanafamilyofsevenIthink
17 thenumberwouldbeseven,Ipickthatarbitrarily,there
18 maybeoneperson,perhapstwo,inthewholeofYeshivah
19 historythatwouldpayfullschoolfees. Sothisbusiness
20 aboutdiscountingschoolfees,it'sjustabsurd. Butthis
21 iswhat'shangingoverpeople'sheads,unspoken,andhere
22 suddenlyit'sconfirmedthatthisisarealpossibility,
23 "Youmayfacetrouble." That'sall,andtheconflation
24 obviouslytheconflationisalso. Ihavegivenevidence
25 manytimesthattheconflationwashappeningandthefact
26 thatthetwothingscomeoneaftertheotherisjustmanna
27 fromheaven. WhatcanItellyou.
28
29 Q. MrWaks,Iapologise,butjustbecauseofsomeother
30 difficultieswewillneedtoaskyoutostepdown. Your
31 Honour,Iinterposewitness[AVC]atthemoment. Isthat
32 allright,MrWaks?
33 A. That'sabsolutelyfine. Ishouldatthisstagethank
34 theCommissionforgivingmethisopportunitytogetall
35 thisout.
36
38
39 <THEWITNESSWITHDREW
40
41 MSGERACE: CouldIcallwitness[AVC].
42
43 <[AVC],affirmed:[3.25pm]
44
45 <EXAMINATIONBYMSGERACE:
46
47 MSGERACE: YouwillbereferredtoasAVC,soforgiveme
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C6172
[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 forcallingyouthat. Butyourdateofbirthisknownto
2 theCommission. It'sbeenredacted. Youarecurrently
3 39yearsofageandaschoolteacher?
4 A. Yes.
5
6 Q. Youarethewifeofthewitnesstogiveevidencein
7 theseproceedingslikelytomorrow,[AVB]?
8 A. Correct.
9
10 Q. [AVB]isawitnessinrespectofwhomhewassexually
11 abusedbyDavidCyprysandDanielGugHayman?
12 A. Correct.
13
14 Q. YouhavepreparedastatementfortheRoyalCommission
15 dated20January2015?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 Q. Isthatstatementtrueandcorrecttothebestofyour
19 knowledgeandbelief?
20 A. Yes,itis.
21
22 Q. Couldyoureadyourstatement,please,fromparagraph
23 4?
24 A. Iamthirdofsixchildren. IgrewupinanOrthodox
25 JewishhomewithintheYeshivahMelbournecommunity. In
26 1997Imarried[AVB]. Wehavefourchildrentogetherwho
27 attendJewishdayschoolsinMelbourne. [AVB]andIreside
28 at[redacted]Melbournewithourfourchildren. Iamhere
29 toprovidecontextandunderstandingoftheprofoundimpact
30 thatchildsexualabuseandthefailuresoftheJewish
31 communityleadershiphaveonthespousesandfamiliesof
32 thevictimsofchildsexualabuse.
33
34 [AVB]'sdisclosureofabusebyDavidCyprys,Cyprys,
35 andDanielHayman. Ifirstlearnedaboutmyhusband's
36 sexualabuseinaround1998. [AVB]toldmehewassexually
37 abusedbyCyprys. Atthattime,Cypryswasasecurity
38 guardandlocksmithattheYeshivahCentre. [AVB]didnot
39 gointodetailwithmeabouttheextentornatureofhis
40 abuse.
41
42 InMay2011[AVB]disclosedtomethathewasalsoa
43 victimofchildsexualabuseperpetratedbyHayman,whohad
44 beenayouthleaderandvolunteerwiththeYeshivaBondi.
45 [AVB]madethedisclosureinthecontextofhisreportto
46 SergeantScottDwyerofVictoriaPolicesexualoffenceand
47 childabuseteam. [AVB]couldn'tverbalisewhathad
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[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 happened,hemerelystoodupfromthecomputerwherehewas
2 typinghisstatementforpoliceandtoldmetoreadit.
3
4 InMay2011[AVB]alsomadeareporttoScottDwyerof
5 VictoriaPolicesexualoffenceandchildabuseteamin
6 relationtoassaultsperpetratedagainsthimbyCyprys.
7
8 VictoriaPolicesexualoffenceandchildabuseteam
9 asked[AVB]forhisassistanceinrelationtotheir
10 investigationsintochildsexualabuseintheJewish
11 community. [AVB]feltagreatsenseofobligationand
12 endeduphavingregularandongoinginteractionwith
13 VictoriaPolicesexualoffenceandchildabuseteam. We
14 keptthisinteractionwithpolicetoourselves,asthe
15 communityfrownedupondisclosureofthisnaturetothe
16 authorities.
17
18 Theresponseofthecommunity. IfIwasmerelyan
19 anthropologistobservingtheimpactofchildsexualabuse
20 revelations,Iwouldbeintriguedbytheresponseofthe
21 Jewishcommunityleadership,theinterconnectedfamilies,
22 thevictimandhisfamilyandwhatitsaysabouthuman
23 nature.
24
25 ButIamnotmerelyanobserver. Iamawifeand
26 motherandwatchwithhorrorasmycommunity,theJewish
27 community,hasrespondedtotheknowledgeofchildsexual
28 abusewithatypeofmoraldestitution. Ourcommunityhas
29 becomeareincarnationofSalemMassachusettsof1692and
30 thedeviliseverywhere.
31
32 Ioftenwonderwhatitmustbeliketoobservethis
33 responsethroughtheeyesofmychildren. Manytimesthey
34 havereturnedfromtheYeshivahShule,thesynagogue,
35 bearingtheweightofnewobservations. TheYeshivahShule
36 hasbecomethearenaforaccusationsandsuspicionstobe
37 expressed. UnderthewatchfulgazeoftheYechiHamelech
38 (longlivethekingMessiah)sign,rabbispreachagainst
39 mesirah,informingonaJewtononJewishauthorities,
40 preachinghellfireanddamnationforthosewhohaveletthe
41 secularworldin,wheretheyhavefailed. Iwonderatthe
42 effectallofthiswillhaveonmychildren,Myson'sashen
43 faceashereturnedfromtheYeshivahshuleandthe
44 revelationthataman,[redacted],whoheconsideredan
45 extensionofourfamily,raisedhishandathimandthen
46 slammeditdownontheshtender(prayerlectern)tostopmy
47 sonfromsittingdownnexttohim. Mychildrenhave
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[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 watchedasanotherupstandingmemberofthecommunity,
2 BarryBendet,husbandofNechamaBendettheGeneralManager
3 atYeshivahCentreMelbourne,calledmyhusbandan
4 arsehole,whenheextendedhishandtowishhimmazeltov
5 (congratulations). Smartquips,clipsontheshoulder,
6 viciousaccusationsshoutedoutintheYeshivahshule,all
7 deliveredinthepresenceofmychildren. Recently,the
8 nightbeforemydaughter'sBatMitzvahparty,mydaughter
9 wasverydistressedandtoldmethateveryonehatesus
10 andthatshewasnervousthatnoonewouldcometoherbat
11 mitzvahparty.WhenIaskedherwhohatesus,shesaid
12 '[redacted]'.
13
14 Nodoubttherehasbeenthephysicalexpressionofthe
15 anxietytheseexperienceshavecaused,intheformof
16 stomachachesandheadaches,somethingIhaveexperienced
17 myself. Irememberinmy31stweekofpregnancy,mybody
18 wentintoearlylabour;aresponsetohearingmyhusband's
19 experiencesandreadinginthepaperofabuseofchildren
20 atthehandsofthechurch.Theaccountsofthesevictims
21 resultedinmybodywantingtopurgeitself. Suddenlythe
22 worldwasfilledwithpredators,leeryeyeshauntedmy
23 sleepandechoesofmyhusband'sexperiencesrepeatedinmy
24 nightmares;alockedroom,anisolatedcampsite...I
25 rememberdetachingmyself,crawlinginsidemyself.
26
27 AfriendlostherfatherandIcouldn'tfacevisiting
28 herorseeingotherpeople. Ifoldedinonmyself,amazed
29 atthecrueltyofpeopleandthepowerofanactofabuse
30 torippleoutandaffectthelivesofsomany.
31
32 Theworldhadsuddenlyturnedfrightening,malicious,
33 evil. Myfamilydidn'tknowhowtorespond. Howmuchdo
34 wetellthem,howvulnerabledoesthisknowledgemakethe
35 victim,myhusband,feel,yethowdoesthefamilydealwith
36 thisvoid,thisanger,thisdespair? Icancountmygood
37 friendsononehand;thebeautifulfriendwhokeptinviting
38 meover,weekin,weekout,sensingthemiasmaofhorror
39 aroundme. Themagnificentfamily,towhomIowemy
40 sanity;thehusbandwhowouldsingtomybabyandholdhim,
41 thebabymyhusbandcouldnotbondwith. Thewifewhose
42 constantloveandnourishmenthelpedmethroughatimewhen
43 myownsiblingswereconfusedbythesituation;tryingto
44 protecttheirsisterontheonehandandempathiseinthe
45 abyssofsilenceandgrief.
46
47 AndIcouldn'tstopimaginingallthesevictimsas
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[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 littleboys,confused,hurt,ashamedatwhathadbeendone
2 tothem.IwouldlookatthemenIknewhadbeenhurtas
3 childrenandtheirfaceswouldmorphbeforemeintothe
4 horrifiedfacesoflittleboys. Boyswhokepttheirsecret
5 orwhotoldtheirrabbi,onlytobemetwithbewildering
6 andtactlessquestionsortheresponsethattheyshouldn't
7 telllies. Andwhatdidthoseboysthinkwhentheir
8 abuser,Cyprysremainedinshule,remainedatthecamps
9 theyattended,guardedtheirentryintotheirshuleeach
10 week? IwashorrifiedwhenIsawCyprysvideoingtheLag
11 B'OmerParadeof2011,aspartofthesecuritygroup
12 monitoringthesafetyofthepublicproceedingsonHotham
13 StreetoutsideYeshivashule. Icouldn'tfathomhowCyprys
14 couldstillbeinvolvedinCommunalevents,inthecapacity
15 ofsomeoneseekingtoprotectthecommunityfromterrorist
16 orantiJewishattacks,whenhehadrippedapartthelives
17 ofsomanyboysintheYeshivahcommunity. Iremember
18 feelingphysicallysickanddizzyathispresencethere,
19 whichwouldhavebeencondonedbytheleadershipofthe
20 YeshivashuleandtheJewishcommunityasawhole.
21
22 Thecommunity'sresponsetotheirawakeningtothe
23 childsexualabuseriddlingthecommunityistoturnonthe
24 victimandmakethemthesubjectofsuspicion. Underthe
25 guiseofmoralopprobrium,thecommunityiscomingapartat
26 theseams. Pettyvengeanceandopportunismareatplay
27 here. Suddenly,everyaccusation,everyevilthathappens
28 inthecommunityisassignedfalsely,toyou. Myhusband
29 andbyextensionourfamilyhavebeenaccusedofbeing
30 primarilyresponsiblefortheclosureofanillegalback
31 packer'shouse,operatedbyamemberoftheJewish
32 community. TheaccusationthatRabbiGlickwasguiltyof
33 childrapehasbeenfalselyattributedtomyhusband;Redacted
34 [ Redacted]
35 [ Redacted]
36 [ Redacted]
37 [ Redacted] Indeedtheblogsechoandpander
38 theseideas,whoringthesalaciousgossiptothosewrapped
39 upinthegleefulfrenzyoftheaftermath. Nomanis
40 safefromtheanonymous,maliciousposts. Thecruellerthe
41 posts,themoregratifiedthepatronandindeeditshosts.
42 [Redacted]and[redacted]haveattemptedtohavemyhusband
43 firedonmultipleoccasions,andpostundertheveilof
44 anonymity,maulingmyhusband'scharacterandspreadingthe
45 wildfireofgossip,richwithsensationaldetail,sothat
46 peoplewhoonceinvitedustotheirweddings,yomtov
47 (festival)table,sentusshalachmanot(giftsoffoodon
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6176
[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 thefestivalofPurim),nowignoreusaswewalkpastthem.
2 Myhusbandreportedaconversationbetweenhimselfand
3 HershelHerbst,amemberoftheYeshivahshulecommittee,
4 whotoldmyhusbandthathedidn'thaveanypersonalissues
5 withhim,buttorememberthatheworetwohatsinthe
6 communityandthatassociatingwithmyfamilyhadruined
7 otherfriendships,hiswife'sprofessionalrelationships
8 anddidn'tlookgoodforhisfamily. Indeed,weshould
9 havebeenmoresensitive,hehadchildrentomarryoff.
10
11 TheJewishcommunitydealsbetterwhenthereis
12 someonetoblamefortheconfusionwearefacingasa
13 community. PerhapsitiseasierforJewishcommunity
14 leaderstodeflecttheirresponsibility,theirmishandling
15 ofthesituation,byperpetuatingthemyththatoneman's
16 desire,myhusband'ssupposeddesiretodestroythe
17 community,isbehindallthesechildsexualabuse
18 accusations.
19
20 Whatisalsointerestingishowtheideals,moralsand
21 beliefsyougrowupwithbecomesubvertedinyourmind.
22 Surelypeoplewillstandupforthetruth,recognise
23 slanderasfalseandultimatelycareforthosechildrennow
24 men,theyhadfailed. Imistakenlybelievedthatthose
25 heroesyoureadaboutinbooks,thoseteachersandleaders
26 whotaughtyoutoalwayssupportthetruth,careforthe
27 vulnerableandseekjustice,wouldstepupandspeakout.
28 Buttheyarejusthumans,weak,frailandsoterribly
29 concernedwiththemselves. NowIknowwhystoriesof
30 courageandbraveryaresoprized,itisbecausetheyare
31 sorare. Ihavecometounderstandthatselfpreservation,
32 one'sstandinginthecommunity,preciousyichus
33 (pedigree),isthemainconcernforalmostallIhave
34 encounteredinthecommunity. Peoplewillalmostalwaysdo
35 whatisexpedientforthem.
36
37 Andsothewordsofmyparents,theguidinglight
38 throughallmyexperiences,torespondwithgraceandtodo
39 whatisright,hasnotserveduswell. Wehavebeenquiet
40 upuntilnow,andpeoplehavetakenthissilenceas
41 ownershipofallthesefalseaccusations. Howdoyou
42 respondtocharacterassassinations,abuseandisolation?
43 Attemptstotalktothosespreadingtheserumourshavebeen
44 metwithrefusalortheresponsethattheywillnotrecant
45 theirrumoursuntiltheyhavebeenprovenwrong. Inthe
46 meantime,justliketheoldhassidicstory,thefeathersof
47 dangerousgossiphavebeenletlooseinthecommunityand
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6177
[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 itisimpossibletoretractthemall.
2
3 Wellbeyondthehorribleactsoftheperpetrators,
4 HaymanandCyprys,againstmyhusband,thatrippedtherug
5 ofsecurity,certaintyandinnocenceoutfromhis
6 childhood,wearebeingscrewedoncemore,bythe
7 adolescent,selfservingandcallousresponseofthe
8 community. Atatimewhensupportandloveareneeded,we
9 arefacinghateandvitriol. Noonecaresaboutwhatis
10 right,theyonlycareforexpediency. AsIwatchthe
11 rabbis;RabbiKluwgant,RabbiTelsner,RabbiFeldman,
12 RabbiLeschesandRabbiGlick,railagainsttheuseofthe
13 secularcourtsandnewspapersoneday,thenusethose
14 selfsameoutletsthenext,oncetheaccusingfingeris
15 pointedatthem,Ifeelthatthefundamentalprinciples
16 thatIgrewupwith,espousedbytheJewishCommunity
17 leadershipIoncerevered,havebeencompromised.
18
19 Asaspouseofvictimandwhistleblower,Ifeelhated
20 andisolatedinmycommunity. Ihavelostfaithinthe
21 leadershipoftheJewishcommunity.
22
23 Q. YourHonour,Ihavenoquestionsforwitness[AVC].
24 Iwouldseektotender[AVC]'sstatement,saveforthe
25 following. Inparagraph19,twonameswerereferredtoat
26 thetop. Justwhileissuesarebeingdetermined,Iwould
27 seekanorderforthenonpublicationofthenames
28 [redacted]and[redacted]. Thereareissuesarisingthat
29 needtobedetermined.
30
31 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. Iwillmakethatorder.
32
33 MSGERACE: Thankyou,YourHonour.
34
35 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Youotherwisetenderthat
36 statement.
37
38 MRVANDEWIEL: CanIaskwhytheyberemoved? People
39 havevilifiedmyclientformorethan18months,andIask
40 thattheynotberemoved.
41
42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: LetmejusthearfromMsGerace
43 aboutthatapplication,MrvandeWiel.
44
45 MSGERACE: YourHonour,IthoughtIhadmadeitclear.
46 It'sonlyatemporaryorderbeingsought. Whiletheissues
47 arebeingdetermined,theapplicationhasbeenmade,I'mprepared
to
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6178
[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 havetheargument,buttheyarestillinprocessandweare
2 gettingthematerialtogether. Soatthisstageitisonly
3 atemporaryorderbeingsought.
4
5 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Togivethosepartiesthe
6 opportunitytorespond.
7
8 MSGERACE: Togivethepartiesanopportunity. The
9 mattershaveonlyjustcomeinlastnightandtodayand
10 theyhaven'tbeendistributed,sowejustneedtimetodeal
11 withtheissues.
12
13 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Soitisonlyatemporaryorder,
14 MrvandeWiel,whilethat'sbeingdone.
15
16 MRVANDEWIEL: Ifyouplease.
17
18 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Iwillmarkthestatementas2213.
19
20 EXHIBIT#2213STATEMENTOF[AVC]
21
22 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MsRichards?
23
24 MSRICHARDS: Noquestions.
25
26 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: AnyoneatthebackBartable?
27 Thankyou,Ms[AVC]. Thankyouforyourattendanceatthe
28 Commissionandyouarenowotherwiseexcused.
29
31
32 MSGERACE: CouldIrecallZephaniahWaks.
33
34 MRBARKER: Myattentionhasjustbeendrawntothelast
35 pageofthelastwitness'sstatement.
36
37 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Youjustneedtogetyourself
38 clearlyinfrontofthemicrophonethere,MrBarker. Itis
39 alittlebithardtohearyouuphere.
40
41 MRBARKER: AsYourHonourheard,thewitnessreferredto
42 anumberofrabbis,includingRabbiFeldman. Thereis
43 nothingintheevidencesofarthatweareawareofthat
44 suggestsheisinanywayaninformerorapersonintenton
45 diminishingJewry.Inmyrespectfulsubmission,thatname
46 oughttobeexcluded.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6179
[AVC] (MsGerace)
1 MSGERACE: YourHonour,couldImakethesameapplication
2 forthepurposesofmattersgoingforward,thatwemakea
3 temporaryordersuppressingthenameofRabbiFeldmanand
4 thentheapplicationscanbepreparedandbroughtback. We
5 willcirculateapositiontothepartiesandthenfurther
6 partiescanmakeapplicationinduecourse.
7
8 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. IunderstandthatRabbi
9 Feldmanisonthelistofwitnessestobecalled.
10
11 MSGERACE: Heis.
12
13 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Soheisinadifferentsituation
14 tothosepersonsthatwerenamed.
15
16 MSGERACE: Heis.
17
18 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yourclientobviously,MrBarker,
19 willbeinapositiontorespondtothat,soI'mnotquite
20 surewhatthebasisoftheapplicationwouldbe.
21
22 MRBARKER: YourHonourheardtheserabbislistedas
23 thosewho,asfarasthewitnessisconcerned,are
24 responsibleforsocialdislocation.
25
26 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes,Iunderstandthatadverse
27 commentisbeingmadeaboutyourclient. ButasIhave
28 justindicated,itistheintentionofCounselAssisting,
29 asIunderstandit,tocallyourclientbeforethe
30 Commissionandatthatpointhewillhavetheopportunity
31 torespondtoadversemattersraisedbyhim. Icanonly
32 repeatmyselfthatthat'sadifferentsituationtothose
33 othertwonamesthatatthemomentarebeingtemporarily
34 directednottobepublished.
35
36 MRBARKER: YourHonour,whileI'monmyfeet,mayIraise
37 somethingperhapslesscontentious. Ihavespokento
38 MsGeraceaboutthisacoupleoftimes. Ihaveaserious
39 problemonFridaythat'sbeenknowntoMsGeraceforsome
40 time. Itinvolveshalfaday'scourtcommencingearly. As
41 YourHonourdoesn'tintendtositonThursdaymorning
42
43 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Wearestartingat11.30on
44 Thursday.
45
46 MRBARKER: ItwouldhelpmeifwecouldhaveThursday
47 off.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6180
1
2 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: That'snotgoingtohappen,
3 MrBarker. Butifwhatyouareindicatingisthatyouhave
4 difficultyonThursdaythenI'msureifyouhavea
5 discussionwithMsGeraceaboutyourclientnotbeing
6 calledonthatdayI'msureMsGeracewilldoherbestto
7 makesomearrangements.
8
9 MSGERACE: Ihaveindicatedthatwewilldowhatwecan.
10 Thereissomedifficultyineachoftheavailabilitiesof
11 thewitnessesfromYeshivaBondi,RabbiPinchusFeldman,
12 RabbiMosheGutnickandtoalesserextentRabbiYosef
13 Feldmanhaveallindicatedvariousdifficultiesoftheir
14 availabilitythisweek. AsIhaveindicatedtoallofthe
15 representatives,itisnotpossibletoaccommodateeachof
16 thosedifficulties. IwasawareoftheFriday,and
17 Iunderstoodmylearnedfriendtohaveapreferencefor
18 gettingawayThursday. Butatthisstagethat'stheonly
19 assuranceIcangive. Asof,mightIindicate,twohours
20 agoIwasn'tevensurehisclientwasgoingtobehere.
21 ButinanyeventIwillhavethosediscussionswith
22 MrBarker.
23
24 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Wedon'tneedtooccupyhearing
25 timenow. I'msureMsGeracewilldoherbest,MrBarker,
26 toaccommodateyourconcerns.
27
28 MRBARKER: I'mindebted.
29
30 MSGERACE: CanIrecallZephaniahWaks,please.
31
32 <ZEPHANIAHWAKS,recalled: [3.51pm]
33
34 MSGERACE: YourHonour,thatconcludesthequestions
35 IhaveforMrWaks.
36
38
39 MSRICHARDS: YourHonour,Ihavesomebriefquestionsbut
40 Iwouldliketogolast.
41
42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. MrStrickland,doyouhave
43 anyquestionsforMrWaks?
44
45 MRSTRICKLAND: No,thankyou.
46
47 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrBarker?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6181
Z WAKS
1
2 MRBARKER: No.
3
4 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrNoonan?
5
6 MRNOONAN: No.
7
8 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrDanos?
9
10 MRDANOS: No.
11
12 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrNeil?
13
14 MRNEIL: No.
15
16 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrvandeWiel.
17
18 <EXAMINATIONBYMRVANDEWIEL:
19
20 MRVANDEWIEL: Justtheconceptofthemesirah,whendid
21 youlearnofthisconceptintermsofyoureducation?
22 A. WhenIlearntaboutmotherhood.
23
24 Q. Sorry?
25 A. WhenIlearntaboutmotherhood. It'sanabsolute
26 everybodyknowsaboutit. Youdon'thavetogoandlearn
27 aboutitinparticular. It'sknown.
28
29 Q. Wereyoutaughtitbyanyparticularrabbis? Wereyou
30 givenitintermsofanypieceofscriptureordocuments?
31 A. No,it'sevenmorebasicthanthat. It'sjust
32 absolutelyknown. Noonewouldgooutandsay,
33 "Listen,youcan'tdothat"becauseeverybodyknowsit.
34 Evenpeoplethatarenotsoreligiousknowaboutit.
35
36 Q. It'scertainlyarumour,butisthereactuallytoyour
37 knowledgethatyouhaveeverseenanyscripturalwritings
38 aboutit?
39 A. Scripturalnot,that'sforsure. Scripturalnotabout
40 mesirah. Abouttheconceptofrodef,theotherone,there
41 isscriptural. Thereismesirah,asIsaid,thatis
42 dobbingsomeoneintothesecularauthorities. Heisthen
43 placedinthecategoryofarodef,someonewhoischasing
44 youtokillyou. Forthatthereisscriptural. Theother
45 oneIassumewaswhat'scalleda[Hebrewspoken]. Itwas
46 addedbytherabbisatacertainstageduringhistorywhen
47 therewasperhapsalotofthingsgoingonwhereJewswere
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6182
Z WAKS (MrvandeWiel)
1 dobbingeachotherinanditwascausingtroubleforthe
2 community. ButIdon'tthinkIhaveeverseensourcesfor
3 it,no.
4
5 Q. Theconceptoftherodefisreallynomorethanan
6 extensionoftheconceptthatweallunderstandtobe
7 selfdefence.
8 A. Correct.
9
10 Q. Orthedefenceofothers?
11 A. Correct.
12
13 Q. Butthatisonlyallowedtobeapplied,asyou
14 understandit,inasituationwherethereisaclearand
15 presentdangertootherpeople,totheirphysicalsafetyor
16 thattheyarecommittingsomeabuseofsuchanaturethat
17 ithastobestopped?
18 A. Yes,it'snotevenjustsomephysicalthing. Ithas
19 tobeessentiallyhe'sgoingtokillyou. Evenaminor
20 thingwouldn'tjustifyyoukillinghimasarodef. Arodef
21 iswhenheisrunningafteryoutokillyou;notjustto
22 assaultyou.
23
24 Q. It'saserious,significant
25 A. Veryserious.
26
27 Q. dangerwhichisposedtosomememberofthe
28 community?
29 A. Yes,clearandimmediatedanger.
30
31 Q. Whichenablessomemembersofthecommunityora
32 personwhowitnessesthistointerveneandtopreventthe
33 continuationofsuchactivity?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Let'stakeitfurther.
37 A. I'msorry?
38
39 Q. Let'stakeitfurther.
40 A. Yes.
41
42 Q. Thisconceptasyouunderstandit,I'mtalkingnow
43 aboutyourculturalunderstanding,notanyHalachic
44 pronouncement,becauseyouareaneducatedmanwithinthese
45 concepts,youhavelivedwithinthecommunity,doesthat
46 extendtoanyphysicalactivitybetweenmembersofthe
47 religiousgrouptowhichyoubelong?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6183
1 A. Sorry,Idon'tquiteunderstandthequestion.
2
3 Q. Allright. Wehaveherethisinstancenowof
4 perpetratingsexualabuseonchildren?
5 A. Right.
6
7 Q. Now,obviouslywecangetlevelsofsexualabuse,but
8 themajorityoftheonesthatwehavebeendiscussingto
9 datedealonlywithaphysicalmanipulation;doesn't
10 endangertheirlife,doesit?
11 A. No.
12
13 Q. Itisjustabreachofanyconceptofappropriate
14 behaviourbetweenanadultandachild?
16
17 Q. Clearlytheconceptofrodefdoesn'tapply,doesit?
18 A. 100percent.
19
20 Q. IfIextenditfurther,achildperpetratorwho
21 actuallyrapesachild,plainlyanactionwhererodef
22 conceptscomeintoplay;correct?
23 A. Correct
24
25 Q. ThebreachissogreatthatJewishlawwouldpermitme
26 toexecutethatperson?
27 A. No.
28
29 Q. No?
30 A. No.
31
32 Q. Whynot?
33 A. Becausehe'snotgoingtokilltheguy. Herapedhim.
34 That'sit. I'mlookingatitnowinaculturalconcept.
35
36 Q. Yes.
37 A. Hewouldn'tbeabletokillhimforthat.
38
39 Q. Wouldn'tbeallowedtokillhim?
40 A. No.
41
42 Q. Wouldhebeallowedtoreporthimtothepolice?
43 A. Well,that'sindebatehere. That'sindebate.
44 Imean,areyouaskingmeortellingme? Thereseemstobe
45 somedisputehere.
46
47 Q. I'maskingyoubecauseyouhavethisknowledgeandyou
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6184
1 havegrownupinthisculture. I'maskingyoutotellthis
2 Commissionwhatyoubelieve.
3 A. WhatIbelieveisthathewouldnotbeabletokill
4 thatguy. Again,I'mnotanexpertinrodef. That'snot
5 somethingyougoaroundandlearnallthetime. Ibelieve
6 thatpeoplewouldthinkthatyouarenotallowedtokill
7 himbecauseheisnotactuallychasingafteryoutokill
8 you. It'schasingafteryoutokillyou. Soevenifhe
9 rapedtheguyyouwouldn'tbeabletokillhimandstop
10 him.
11
12 I'mactuallyveryamusedatthat. Thisisaquestion
13 Ihadoncewantedtoaskofpolice,thisexactsituation,except
14 onawoman,notonaman;ifyouinsecularlawwouldbe
15 abletokilltheperson. Iwasgoingtoaskexactlythat
16 question. It'sonmylistoftodos. MyanswerinJewish
17 law,thewayIunderstandit,Imaybewrong,andIthinka
18 lotofpeoplewouldunderstandalsothathewouldnotbea
19 rodefandyouwouldnotbeabletokillhim. Butif
20 Ithinkyouaregoingwhereyouaregoing...
21
22 Q. Don'tworryaboutwhereyouthinkI'mgoing.
23 A. Good.
24
25 Q. Justwaitformyquestions,ifyouwouldbesokind.
26
27 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: I'mworriedaboutwhereyouare
28 going,MrvandeWiel.
29
30 MRVANDEWIEL: WhatI'mgoingtoisthis,andIwill
31 takeyoustraighttoit. IfIjustcommitaphysicalact
32 ofassaultagainstyouwouldyoubepermittedinJewishlaw
33 toreportthattothesecular
34 A. InJewishlaw?
35
36 Q. Yes,tothesecularauthorities?
37 A. JustanactofassaultinJewishlaw,andhe's
38 askingwhatIthinkpeoplethink;there'sdefinitelya
39 questionaboutthat. Atthetimewhenithappenedtome,
40 Idon'twanttosaywho,butarabbi,apractisingrabbi,
41 rangmeandsaid,"Didyougetrabbinicpermissionto
42 reporttheguytothepolice?" Sotherearedefinitely
43 rabbiswhothinkyoucan'treportevenanassaultto
44 police;assaultsonmewhichIdidreporttopolice. Rabbi
45 Blausaidthisisnonsenseofcourse. Sothereareeven
46 rabbis. Ifyouareaskingaboutiftherearerabbisthat
47 thinktwodifferentversions,don'treallyhaveaproblem
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6185
1 withthatbecauseJewishlawislikethat,extremeto
2 extreme,buttherearedefinitelygoingtobepeopleinthe
3 communitywhothinkyoucan'treportittothepolice,yes.
4
5 Q. Theserabbiswhotoldyouthatyoucouldn'treportit
6 tothepolice,aretheywithintheChabadculture?
7 A. Yes.
8
9 Q. Theyare?
10 A. Yes.
11
12 Q. Sotheyareteachingthistomembersofthe
13 congregationthatyoucan'tevenreportaphysicalassault?
14 A. Yes. Thereisabsolutelynodoubtthatthereare
15 peoplethatthinkthat,yes. Thereisnodoubtaboutthat.
16 Evenifit'snotthelaw,itdoesn'treallymatter.
17
18 Q. Andtheypurporttosaythatonthebasisofreligious
19 learning?
21
22 Q. AndthatisastatementofJewishlaw?
23 A. Becausethatwouldbemesirah. Thatwouldbemesirah,
24 exactly. Ithoughtthiswaswhereyouwereleading. A
25 moserisarodef,remember. Someonethatsnitchesisin
26 thecategoryofapersonthatischasingtokillyou. So
27 wehavethisridiculoussituationthatinfacttherapist
28 Iwouldn'tbeabletokillhimtostophim,buttheperson
29 thatwentandreportedtherapistwouldbeabletobe
30 killedbysomebodyelseasarodef. That'stheabsolutely
31 amazingsituation. DoyouunderstandwhatI'msaying?
32 It'sabsolutelyabsurd,butyouareright. Isthatwhere
33 youwereleading?
34
35 Q. That'sexactlywhereweweregoing.
36 A. Good.
37
38 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Nothingarisingoutofthatfor
39 you?
40
41 MSRICHARDS: Nothingarising,althoughIdostillhave
42 somequestions. IanticipateIwillbeabout15minutes.
43
44 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: YouhaveheardMsRichardsjust
45 indicateyouwillbeabout15minutes,MrWaks.
46 A. I'mfine.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6186
1 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Itis4o'clock. Wouldyouprefer

2 thatwegoonandfinishnow,ifMsRichardsiscomfortable
3 withherestimate?
4
5 MSRICHARDS: I'mwilling. It'samatterforthe
6 Commission.
7 A. I'mcertainlymorecomfortable,butI'mnotgoingto
8 imposeonanybodyelse.
9
10 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Andnothingoutofreexamination?
11
12 MSRICHARDS: No.
13
14 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Let'sseeifwecanfinishwith
15 MrWaks.
16 A. Thankyouverymuch.
17
18 <EXAMINATIONBYMSRICHARDS:
19
20 MSRICHARDS: Q. MrWaks,doyouhaveapapercopyof
21 yourstatementwithyou? Coulditalsobeprovidedupon
22 thescreen?
23
24 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MsRichards,canwegetyoutojust
25 pullyourmicrophoneupalittlebit. Wearejusthavinga
26 littlebitoftroublehearingyou. Thankyou.
27
28 MSRICHARDS: Iaskyoutogotoparagraph10ofyour
29 statement,MrWaks.
30
31 MRVANDEWIEL: Stillcan'thear.
32
33 MSRICHARDS: Areyoulookingatparagraph10? Iseewe
34 havethatonthescreen.
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. Inthatparagraphyoudealwithyourawarenessin1991
38 or1992ofindecentassaultchargesthatwerebrought
39 againstDavidCyprysinrelationtoaboywhohadbeenat
40 schoolwithyoursonManny?
42
43 Q. HaveIunderstoodyourevidenceearliertobethatyou
44 didn'tknowtheboybutyouheardasamemberofthe
45 communityabouttheindecentassaultcharge,thefactthat
46 amemberofthecongregationwasrepresentingMrCyprysand
47 thesentencethatMrCyprysreceived?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6187
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 A. Yes.
2
3 Q. Didyoulearnwhethertheboyremainedastudentat
4 YeshivahCollege?
5 A. Irememberthatweknewthathe
6 disappeared;disappearedfromtheschool,andweunderstood
7 thathesortofitwasatthetimeIwasgetting
8 informationoutofalotofboysandtheywereverythey
9 heardthings,andIknewalotofthings;someofthemwere
10 true,someofthemweren't. Butweheardthathehadbeen
11 sentaway. Didn'tknowwhy,butweheardthathehadbeen
12 sentaway. That'sthewayIheardit.
13
14 Q. Anddidyouunderstandanymoredetailaboutwhat
15 becameofthatboyatthattime?
16 A. No.
17
18 Q. Iwouldliketomovetoparagraph21ofyour
19 statement,whereyoudescribeaconversationthatyouhad
20 withHershorHarryCooper?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 Q. Ianticipatefromotherevidencetobegivenby
24 MrWolfthathisevidencewillbethatMrCooperleft
25 AustraliaforIsraelin1997or1998. Toyourknowledgeis
26 MrCooperstillliving?
27 A. Yes.
28
29 Q. AndstilllivinginIsrael?
30 A. Yes.
31
32 Q. Therearejustacouplemorematters. Yourecallat
33 theendofyoursonManny'sevidenceyesterdayhewastaken
34 toanextractfromtheCommitteeofManagementmeeting?
35 A. Yes.
36
37 Q. ACommitteeofManagementmeetinginMay2014?
38 A. Isawthatearliertoday,yes.
39
40 Q. Andthatextractwasbroughtuponthescreentowards
41 theendofCounselAssisting'squestioningofyou. Justto
42 beclearaboutthat,theminutewasthattherewasa
43 suggestionthatadvicebetakenaboutdiscountedfeesthat
44 hadbeengrantedtoyouovertheyears. Haveyouheard
45 anythingfromanyoneassociatedwithYeshivahCollege
46 askingyoutopayfeesthathavebeendeferredoverthe
47 years?
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6188
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 A. No.
2
3 Q. Sotherehasbeennocontactdirectlywithyouabout
4 thatmatter?
5 A. No,butwhenIsawitonthescreenIwasdistressed
6 yesterday,asyouwellknow.
7
8 Q. Areyouconcernedaboutthepossibleimplicationsfor
9 youofthatadvicebeingsoughtandfollowedthrough?
10 A. Yes,andIevenconsideredandsuggestedandspoke
11 withotherpeopleaboutthepossibilitythattheCommission
12 wouldinfactevenmakeadeclarationofsometype.
13 Idon'tknowifitispossiblebut,especiallybasedon
14 everythingtheyaregoingtohear,thatwouldbesomething
15 thatwouldactuallymakemefeelmuchbetterattheendof
16 thething.
17
18 Becausethewaythatit'swrittenthere,theyplace
19 thetwothingsdirectlyineachother,andIthinkitwould
20 absolutelyeventhoughwesigneddocuments,everybody
21 signeddocumentsatthetimeoffeedeferment;soasIsaid
22 legallytheymayhavesomelegtostandon. AsIsay,
23 Idon'tbelieveanybodyhaseverhaditdoneagainstthem,
24 outofthegroupofpeopleI'mtalkingabout,anditwould
25 beabsolutelyperverseiftheywereabletoexecutethat
26 typeofarrangement. Ifit'spossibleatalltoaskfor
27 thatsortofindulgence. Anyway.
28
29 Q. Sojusttobeclearthefinancialimpactonyouand
30 yourfamily,canyougiveusanideaofthedimensionsof
31 it? Werethecollegeto
32 A. Itwouldprobablybeintoday'smoneyamillion
33 dollarsorsomethinglikethat. Imean,17kidsintoday's
34 terms,mostofthemgoinguptoyouknow,theboysupto
35 acertainhugeintoday'smoney;huge. Isawthenumber
36 onceyearsagoofbecausetheyusedtoputitatthe
37 bottomofstatementstomakesurethat"youreallydoknow
38 aboutthis",youknow,asifyoucandoanythingaboutit.
39 Itwasatonestagemaybe400,000"amountdeferred". They
40 usedtoactuallyputitonthestatement. Icanfindone
41 ifnecessary. Absurd. Iassumedalwaysthatsincetheguy
42 thathadframeditIbelievewasaveryhighleveltax
43 lawyer,Iassumedthatitwasdonetoleavethethingopen
44 andhaveitalldocumentedandeverythinglikethat.
45
46 Q. WasthatMrCooperyouwerereferringto?
47 A. Iwouldthinkso,yes,astheyorganisedalltheother
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C6189
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 shieldsandeverythinginthecommunity.
2
3 Q. Youhaveaconcernforyourselfandyourownfamily's
4 finances. Isthereawiderconcernthatyouhave?
5 A. Amuchwiderconcern,asIhaveclaimedallalongin
6 myevidence,beforeIknewthis. Thiswasjustthefinal
7 stroke,seeingitinblackandwhite. ButIalwaysknew
8 thatitaffectedeverybody'sperceptionofthematter.
9 Everybodyperceivedthatthiswasapossibility.
10
11 Infactsomeonecamearoundtomelastnightafterthe
12 evidenceandtheyhadseenthisandtheycongratulatedand
13 gavemeahug,someonethat'sneverdoneitformallybut
14 hasdoneitonblogs,defendedus,andwhenIsaidtohim,
15 "Weren'tyoushockedbythis,"hesaid,"Whatareyou
16 shockedabout? Everybodyknowsit." That'showitisunderstood
17 ThisisaDamoclesswordhangingovereverybody.
18 Lestyouthinkdifferently,asfarasteachersoutofall
19 ourfriends,50percentwereteachersattheschool,good
20 friends,andtheyhadtostopsupportingmywifein
21 particularbecauseoffearoflosingtheirjobs. Oneof
22 themsaidtomeexplicitly,"Ihaveamortgage. IfIdon't
23 havemyjob,whatwillIdo?" Thisistheotherone.
24
25 Q. SeeingintheminutesanoteofyoursonMannytaking
26 legalactionagainsttheYeshivahCentre,coupledwitha
27 suggestiontotakeadviceaboutactionthatmightbetaken
28 againstyouinrelationtodiscountedfees,yourevidence
29 isthatthathasawiderimpact
30 A. Yes,100percent,aswhatIhaveclaimedallthetime
31 andnowitisinblackandwhite. Anybodythathearsit,
32 anditistheproblemIhavehadthewholetimethemore
33 noisewemakeinwantingtobringitoutIhavealways
34 hadtobecognisantofthefactthatotherpeoplearegoing
35 toseethisandsay,"Ah,wearerighttobeafraid,"and
36 ithasbeenaproblemthewholetime. Butwecametothe
37 conclusionthattheonlyothersideisjustleavingitall
38 quietandnotdoinganything. Soitisthelesseroftwo
39 evils. That'sallIcansay.
40
41 Q. ThelastareaIwouldliketotakeyouto,MrWaks,is
42 somethingthatarisesfromastatementthattheCommission
43 hasprovidedtothepartiesfromRabbiZviHershTelsner.
44 Ifthatstatementcouldbebroughtuponthescreen,
45 please. ThedocumentnumberisSTAT.0456.002.0001. Ifwe
46 couldgotoparagraph22onthefourthpageofthat
47 document,please.
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6190
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1
2 SointhispartofRabbiTelsner'sstatement,as
3 Ireadit,he'srespondingtotheissuethatyouraised
4 aboutnotbeinggrantedaliyahfrom2012onwards. At
5 paragraph22hesays:
6
7 Someofthiswasindeeddoneinthecontext
8 ofthesexualabuseissues,whichhe
9 describedas"rampant",butitwasamore
10 generalpatternofconduct:Amongother
11 things,hetooktowalking
12 outonmysermonsanddidnotrefertome
13 bythetitleof"Rabbi".
14
15 Youhaverespondedtothatinyourevidencealready:
16
Thosematters, and others instances of
17
disrespectordenigration, lead to friction
18
inMrZephaniah Waks' relationship with
19
myselfandother members of the Shule. Even
20
beforethesexual abuse matters arose there
21
weredifficulties in the relationship
22
betweenZephaniah Waks, and Yeshivah
23
Centre,including regarding planning
24
matters(MrWaks is a near neighbour of the
25
26 YeshivahCentre)andhisdemandsfor
27 discounts(whichweregenerallygranted)
28 onfeesforhischildren'sschooling,fees
29 forcampsandothermatters.
30
31 ItisthelastsentenceIwouldliketoaskyouabout.
32 HaveyouhaddifficultieswiththeYeshivahCentreover
33 planningmattersinrecenttimes?
34 A. Yes,inthepast. I'manearneighbour,andother
35 peopleinthecommunityhaveunderstooditwhenwell,one
36 personI'mthinkingofinparticular,averywealthymember
37 whoisnotbeholdentothem,heinfactsaid,"Ofcoursea
38 neighbourhasarighttodefendhisproperty." AndIwent
39 onestepfurther. Whentherewasfrictionwetriedto
40 solveiteitherbytalkingdirectly,whichwasrefused,and
41 Ihavethatinwriting,verballyandalsoanofferwasmade
42 togoagaintoaJewishcourt. Sotheresponsewasagain,
43 "NoJewishcourt,notalking,butyoucan'tgotothe
44 secularauthorities. Theendresultofifyoudowhatwe
45 sayisjustsuckit."
46
47 Q. Wasthereaparticularplanningapplicationmadein
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C6191
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 relationtoaproposedbuildingontheYeshivahCentreland
2 inabout2008?
3 A. Yes. Thisbuildingwasalargebuilding,andthat
4 botheredmeasaneighbour. Buttherewasevenabigger
5 problemwithit. Thiswasabuildingthatwasgoingtobe
6 supervisedbyitwasinfactcalledonhisname;thiswas
7 calledtheMosheKahnbuilding. Heistheheadofthe
8 ChabadYouthorganisation. Hejusthappenstobethe
9 soninlawofthechairmanoftheboard,ormysteriously
10 Iheardyesterdayheisnolongerthechairmanofthe
11 board. Nobodyknowsaboutit. Hewasgoingtobein
12 chargeofthis.
13
14 ThiswasgoingtobenotonlyforChabadYouth,
15 meaningessentiallywhatyouwouldthinkofastheschool,
16 buttheproposedusewasinfact,evenaccordingtowhat
17 theyclaimed,whereasotherpeoplethoughtitwasactually
18 goingtobeahallthatwasrentedout;butaccordingto
19 theirownclaimitwasgoingtobeusedforuniversity
20 students,outreachingeneral,notjustatallforthe
21 kids. Thiswouldhaveinvolvedareligiousproblem
22 because,asyouhavealreadyheardfrommyson,thereare
23 verystrictboundariesbetweenmenandwomen. Thisison
24 theschoolgrounds,youhavetounderstand. Itwouldhave
25 beentotallyinappropriateonreligiousgroundstohave
26 singlemaleandfemaleuniversitystudentsmixingina
27 socialsetting,whichiswhatthiswouldhavebeen,onthe
28 Sabbath,onSundays,duringtheweek. Itwouldhavebeen
29 totallyinappropriate. Thatwasthegroundsunderwhich
30 Iraisedtheobjection. Itwasgenuinelytheonlygrounds
31 underwhichbecausetheyweren'tpreparedtoaddressit
32 properly,onceIwasforcedintodoingitviaasecular
33 authoritythenIbroughtuptheotherthings,becausethe
34 secularauthoritywouldnotbeabletohearofthatasa
35 ground.
36
37 Q. Andtherelevantsecularauthority,tobeclear,was
38 theCityofGlenEira?
39 A. Correct. Itisnotevenacourt. Iactuallygota
40 rulingfromRabbiMordechaiGutnick,whoatthetimewas
41 therabbithatIusedtoaskthingswhenIhadreligious
42 questionsofthistypeofnature,aJewishlegal"Can
43 IdoitorcanInot?"ThebrotherofRabbiMosheGutnick,
44 whoperhapsatthetimewastheheadoftheRabbinical
45 CouncilofVictoria,he'saseniorrabbiinMelbourne,and
46 hesaid,yes,Icandoit.
47
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C6192
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 Q. SoyouasaneighbourofYeshivahCentrelodgedan
2 objectiontoaplanningpermitapplicationthathadbeen
3 made
4 A. Aftertryingtoexhausteverythingelseandinfact
5 aftergoingtoRabbiGlickwhenIfirstdidthisIwent
6 toRabbiGlickandItoldhim,"Thisisinappropriate. You
7 shouldcarebecauseitisyourschoolandyouaregoingto
8 haveallthisstuffgoingonwhichisjustinappropriate."
9 Ifanybodyelsedidittheywouldhavescreamed. They
10 wouldhavebeenthefirsttoscream. Hewastheheadof
11 thespiritualcouncil,whichIthinkhestillit. Isaid,
12 "Goandgiveittothem." ThatincludesRabbiTelsnerand
13 awholebunchofotherpeople. "Putthistothemthatthis
14 isjustinappropriate,whatisgoingtobehappening."
15
16 Alsoatthattimeonthespiritualcouncilmyfriend
17 MrGurewiczwasalsoonthat,andheclaimedtohaveno
18 knowledgeofwhatthepurposeofthebuildingwas. Infact
19 hewentfurther. HesaidtheyweremisledbyMosheKahn;
20 thattheyweretolditwasgoingtobejustforthekids
21 andeverythinglikethat. Whentheyfoundoutthatitwas
22 goingtobeusedforuniversitystudentsaswell,they
23 realisedalsowhattheramificationswere. SoRabbiGlick
24 saidthatnotonlydidhehearwhatIsaidandbelievedme;
25 hetoldmeIshouldpresentthistothespiritualcouncil.
26 Isaid,"YoucandowhatIhavetoldyou." Hesaid,"No,
27 youwillgiveamuchmorecompellingversionofit."
28
29 Q. MrWaks,I'mnotwantingyouto
30 A. Sorry.
31
32 Q. gointotheinsandoutsoftheplanningandthe
33 meritsoftheplanningdispute. Ijustwantedtogetan
34 ideaofthesequenceofevents.
35 A. Sorry.
36
37 Q. Thiswasin2008thatyoumadethisobjectiontothe
38 GlenEiraCouncil?
39 A. Yes. ButthebackgroundofwhatIgavetoyouwas
40 justtoshowitreallywasn'taplanningdisputeassuch.
41 Itwasreallysomethingelsewhichhadtobedisguisedasa
42 planningdispute,otherwiseIcouldn'thavedoneanything.
43
44 Q. Yourobjectionwasprimarilyareligiousone?
45 A. Correct. Ifithadbeenpurelyontheotherone
46 Iwouldn'thavemadetheobjection,andItoldthemthat.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6193
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 Q. Didyoutakeyourobjectiontothebuildingany
2 furtherthantheGlenEiraCouncil?
3 A. No.
4
5 Q. Youdidn'tgotoVCATaboutit?
6 A. No.
7
8 Q. Wasthereanyconsequenceforyouasacommunity
9 memberhavingraisedthatplanningobjectionwiththeCity
10 ofGlenEira?
11 A. Yes,therewas,amajorproblem. Ataschoolcampin
12 Juneofthatyearorstraightafteritweputinthe
13 applicationontimeforschoolcampforthekids,and
14 Ididn'tgettheokayback. Whenitwasadaybeforeor
15 somethinglikethatIsawithadn'tcomeback. SoIrang
16 upandthesecretarytoldmeIsaid,"What'shappened
17 withtheapplication? Thekidshaven'tgottheformsor
18 whatevertheyneedforcamp." Shesaid,"It'snotso
19 simple. YouhavetospeaktoRabbiKahn."
20
21 RabbiKahntoldme,"Yes,itisabigproblem. Weare
22 debatingwhethertoletyourkidsgotocamp." Isaid,
23 "Whatdoyoumean?" Hesaid,"Well,youknow,youare
24 makingtroubleforYeshivah. Idon'tthinkitisreally
25 appropriate. Wedon'thavetoletyourkidsgotocamp,
26 andweareconsidering." Thisislikeadaybefore;
27 considering,considering.
28
29 Iwasabsolutelyoutragedbythisidea,thatbecause
30 ofsomeproblemtheyhavewithmetheyaregoingtotakeit
31 outonmykids. SoIimmediatelyrangRabbiTelsner.
32 RabbiTelsner,thinkingthathewouldhavesomecontroland
33 takenmysideandsay,"Yes,thisisreallynoton."Insteadhis
34 answertomewashepausedforasecondandhesaid,"Well,
35 ifyoustartupwiththe[Hebrewspoken],withthe
36 institutions,whatdoyouexpect?"
37
38 IputthephonedownandrangNechamaBendet. Bythis
39 timeIwasfuming. SheknewthatIwasfumingbecausewe
40 werefamilyfriendsandIspokesoftly,sosheknewIwas
41 reallymad. Itoldher,"Youknow,thisbetterchange
42 withinacoupleofminutes." WithinfiveminutesIhada
43 callback. Iexplainedtoher,"Thisisnoton,"andshe
44 agreedwithmeandeverythinglikethat. Becausethen
45 IwasimmediatelypreparedwithoutaskinganybodyIwas
46 goingtodoeverythingpossible,gotothemedia,gotothe
47 educationdepartment,whateverIhadtodobecause
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6194
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 Iconsideredthisabsolutelyatrociousbehaviour,and
2 withinfiveminutesIgotacallback,"Theyareincamp."
3 That'sthewayitworks. SoIhadsomethingnow,andIwas
4 abletoexerciseitimmediatelyandeverythingwent
5 smoothly.
6
7 Q. Andyourchildrenwenttocamp?
8 A. Theywenttocamp,yes.
9
10 Q. Andyoupursuedyourplanningobjectionasfarasthe
11 decisionmadebyGlenEiraCouncil?
12 A. Yes,Ididn'tchangethat. LaterIthenaskedfor
13 apologiesandIaskedforRabbiTelsnertoensurethat
14 RabbiKahnwouldbedisciplined,thatyoucan'tactlike
15 this. Nothingwaseverdoneaboutthateither. Absolute
16 refusal.
17
18 Q. Justtobeclear,afterthatdisputeandyour
19 expressionofdispleasureattheconsequencesbeingvisited
20 onyourchildren,wasthereanychangeinthepatternof
21 youbeingcalledtotheTorahinsynagogue?
22 A. Notatthatstage,no,Idon'tbelieveso.
23
24 Q. AndthefinalmatterIneedtoaskyouaboutconcerns
25 yourdemands,itsaysinthisparagraph,fordiscountson
26 feesforyourchildren'sschooling,campsandother
27 matters. Didyoudemanddiscounts?
28 A. No,absolutelynot. Igaveyouanexampleofafriend
29 ofmine. Hedemanded. Hesaid,"Eithertakeitdownto
30 20,000andgivemea$5,000thingorI'mnotpaying." That
31 wasademand. Ididn'tdothatatall. Ipresentedforms,
32 standardformsthatareprintedup. Youfillouttheform,
33 youanswertheinformationandyougetaletterback. They
34 havedecidedthisandthat,andthat'swhereitends.
35 That'swhereitalwaysended. Inevermadeanobjectionto
36 theirfinding. Ijustleftituptothem. Infactlater
37 intimeIusedtojustfillouttheformsaying,whenthey
38 askedforhowmuchyougethereandwhatyougetthere,
39 Isaid,"Everythingisaslastyear. Nothing'schanged.
40 Youdecidewhateveryouwant." Ineverarguedwithit.
41 That'sabsolutelytheoppositeofdemand,istheway
42 Iwouldcharacteriseit.
43
44 Q. Sotherewasanestablishedprocessthatyoufollowed?
45 A. Absolutelyestablished. Youhaveseentheforms
46 yourself.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6195
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 Q. Wasthereeveradisputeabouttheoutcomeofthe
2 A. NotasfarasIknow.AsIsaidIneverquestionedit.
3 ThereasonIdidn'tquestionitwasevenareason,because
4 thenitwouldbeasifI'mtryingtoextractandpretend
5 I'mpoor. ThereisaparticularthinginJewishlaw. If
6 youpretendyouarepoorandyouarenot,therewillbea
7 visitationuponyouofbeingpoor. SoIdidn'twanttoput
8 myselfoutas"Thisiswhatthesituationis. Youdecide
9 whattodo." Ileftituptothem,intheirhands.
10
11 Q. Thankyou,MrWaks.
12
13 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Anythingarisingoutofthat?
14
15 MSGERACE: Nothingarisingoutofthat.
16
17 MRNOONAN: Thereisforme. Itisnotsomuchaquestion
18 butreallyjusttosetMrWaks'smindatease. Iwill
19 confirmtheseinstructions. Therewillbenoonechasing
20 thefees.
21 A. I'msorry,Ididn'thearthat.
22
23 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: MrNoonan,whorepresentsthe
24 YeshivahCentre.
25
26 MRNOONAN: Yes. Therewon'tbeanyonethefees
27 certainlywon'tbepursued.
28 A. Thefeeswillnotbepursued,ever. Okay. Thankyou.
29 Thathassomesortofstatus,doesit,thefactthatithas
30 beenstatedhere?
31
32 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Itisontranscripthere,MrWaks.
33 A. Thankyou. That'sexcellent. Thankyouverymuch.
34
35 MSGERACE: MightMrWaksbeexcused?
36
37 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes,MrWaks. Thankyouforyour
38 attendanceattheRoyalCommission.
39 A. Andthankyouagainvery,verymuch.
40
42
44
45 MSRICHARDS: MightIthanktheCommissionforsitting
46 on.
47
.03/02/2015(C0061)
C6196
Z WAKS (MsRichards)
1 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. 10.

2
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1 anymore. That'sarealproblem. Thereisnoleadership

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1 breachesmesirah. Notjustmesirah,anyrodef. Thatmeans

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