Short Time Settings in phase over current 50/51 relay

Muhammad SohailElectrical Design Engineer at Descon Engineering

i have sepam 80 series relay for transformer feeder protection. how can i
set short time settings with instantaneous and time over current settings.
i have already put time over current settings with instantaneous settings
but not finding short time pick up setting option in OCR TAB in ETAP 12.5.
Like
Comment (12)
Share
Follow
Reply Privately
23 days ago
Comments
12 comments Jump to most recent comment

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada

o
o
o
o

What are your objectives, what type of transformer i.e application, size, windings?
The instantaneous overcurrent protection if used is set for fast primary fault protection. You need
to verify your maximum asymmetrical through fault current or inrush current .
The timed overcurrent protection is used for overload protection. The selected protective relay
curve have its pickup and time determined by selectivity requirements (however their are upper
limits) and at the same time should protect transformer in accordance with its fault withstand
curve.
Usually modern relays have various overcurrent functions and curves are available; however, it
depends on your transformer application since it will would impose the selected overcurrent
functions that are required. Some transformers use instantaneous and inverse for HV, inverse for
LV and inverse for neutral. Usually these time overcurrent curves are usually available with ETAP
(function:51)
Modern relays have also thermal and multi levels of OC protection.
Like (1)
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
23 days ago
Muhammad S. likes this

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada

o
o
o
o

I am assuming you are asking for settings applicable to the 50/51 OC functions only at the
secondary side of your transformer only or are you looking at the primary / secondary side also?
what type of relay at the secondary side (Sepam 80?) ? Can you describe your primary side (do y
have line , a circuit breaker and what is the voltage? 33kV?) what voltage? Do you have another
breaker? what MVA, how is transformer grounded? Where have you set instantaneous setting
(instantaneous means 50..no TD), what exactly do you mean and what exactly do you need?
What is your objectives? Do you have other protection scheme to verify?, What do you mean by
short time pick up settings ? (relay can be provided with inverse curve @ secondary side). OC
curves can be selected inverse, extremely inverse.. You do not need long or short relay
characteristic curves since I have already explained to you what type of curves (inverse) can be
selected for a transformer protection . You need to set your pickup and time dial and inverse type
to provide selectivity and acceptable primary and backup OC protection.
The relay located at the LV side can be used to provide backup overcurrent, ground, and sensitive
earth fault protection for a distribution network. You need to figure out yourself the coordination
of phase curves and settings for your 11kV distribution feeder with your coordination study or
plot (need to be clear what you need) and verify upstream/downstream settings.
The transformer overcurrent pickup of the 51 (TOC) curve is set (as explained before)considering
the transformer rating, the transformer damage curve, the maximum load to be supplied, and the
minimum phase to phase fault current at busbar. The pickup is normally set about 1.5 times of
transformer rating (can be higher check NFPA/NEC) if the minimum phase to phase fault current
can be cleared so that as much load as possible can be supplied (in case of failure of another
power transformer). The transformer time multiplier setting is set considering the settings of the
largest distribution feeder (11kV) and additional margin to allow for distribution load growth . You
also need to verify selectivity at the primary side (35 kV ?).
Other than 50/51 you can have complicated scenarios , calculations and other protection
(functions and logic) for setting your relay and verify your bus , line (if you have one),
transformer and fault locations. We are not sure exactly what you need and not sure if you have a
line and what your overall protection criteria you have selected.
Perhaps you need to describe your one line arrangements and electrical ratings then we can try
to give you some recommendations.
Like (1)
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
22 days ago
Muhammad S. likes this

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada

Simarly as many readers are not familiar with the relays you are using (SEPAM 80), you need to
provide a detailed description of your electrical system. You also need to define your distribution
one line correctly and explain your objectives clearly since 50 element can be used to clear faults
instantaneously but also can be provided for the BUS PROTECTION at 11kV. So I am asking you to
clarify and provide the readers what you have exactly "put time overcurrent with instantaneous
settings" ??? . I already explained that 50 does mot mean time overcurrent! and you need to
define your criteria correctly , describe your primary and secondary protection before providing
any setting in your relays !
Like

Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
22 days ago

o
o
o

Aung
Aung Myint
Independent Design Professional

o
o
o
o

>>Suggested RP Recommended Practice:ANSI/IEEE Std 141-1986 Chap 5: Application and Coordination of System Protective Devices:
>>Suggested alternate Software: SKM Inc.; www.skm.com/
>>provided, software is complete with product data (i.e time-current characteristic curves) of
both both protected equipment & protective device etc.>>
Like (1)
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
20 days ago
Muhammad S. likes this

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada
@Sreenivas
This is not 690 volt or 480 volt. The secondary voltage or bus voltage is 11 kV . I do not have any
informations on the primary side. I am only assuming we have a 33kV or higher voltage
distribution line terminating directly into a transformer delta-YG. There is only one relay at the
secondary side and in this case 50 elements (main and feeders) are usually used to provide fast
BUS protection using selected logic when differential protection can not be provided or is not
available (expensive to provide at distribution volt levels). Usually at primary side 50 can be
provided (usually not used @ secondary side of XFMR) ... but there are many informations
missing (what elements are used at primary side, any CT any CB? :do not know) and we do dot
even know the type of relay SEPAM80 used (various relays with various functions are available
from Schneider) . That is why I requested additional informations.
If a large induction motors are fed @ 11 kV we will also need additional protection.

You mention, lower voltage levels....For lower voltage (480 volt or 600 volt) we usually deal with
LV MCC or LV switchgear, Eventhough 50 is not used. However or ideally you also need fast
clearing for fault since also since the LV usually as a 4 cycles or 3 cycles damage characteristics
and there is always compromise between selectivity and protection and other concerns with arc
flash levels ect.. in low voltage as well ... So instantaneous protection should always be
considered also (50 or I). As a resulted modern LVCB are getting their LSIG tripping characteristics
improved to provide faster protection and to satisfy equipment short circuit withstand limits.
Like (1)

o
o
o

Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
20 days ago
Muhammad S. likes this

Charles
Charles Esson
Consulting Electrical Engineer/Computer science. Control Systems and Power
Top Contributor
The conventions for describing protection functions on the LV side and MV side are very different.
The words you are using (instantaneous, short term and long term pick-up) are LV protection
terms. MV talk about ANSI function 50 and 51 and different formulas for the curves.
A sepam 80 is a MV protection relay. There are several different models. It has 8 50/51 functions
across all models (and much more; what depends on the model) so you can set-up the relay
pretty much as you want, you can use it for LV protection but you have to get yourself thinking in
MV protection mode.
To see what you can do get a hold of the software SFT2841, it is the software used to setup the
relay. The google searchwill point you in the right direction.
I use mathcad to setup my relays (no hidden magic) so I can't talk to how etap deals with it.
Regards
o
o
o
o

Like (2)
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
17 days ago
Muhammad S., Manuel Henrquez Santana like this

Matthew
Matthew Pilgrim
Senior Electrical Engineer at Palaris

o
o
o
o

Muhammad, I am not too familiar with Etap, but I regularly use SKM Powertools, which is a similar
package. Based on my experience, relay models, even in-built ones, always need to be checked.
You may need to re-model or modify the library component.
Also, in powertools you can choose whether a particular characteristic is shown by default, or
must be added manually. Perhaps etap is similar and you need to manually turn on this short
time curve.
Like
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
10 days ago


Muhammad
Muhammad Sohail
Electrical Design Engineer at Descon Engineering
Thanks All to guide me.
Actually there was three over current levels (Three Units of 50/51 was activated and having
different pick up and time settings in SEPAM S80 Relay on transformer secondery) in existing
setting document. I was trying to put these over current (50/51) levels in ETAP.
With some deep analysis on ETAP Setting Tab, Now i have understand how can we set over
current setting for different levels.
My system detail is as follow:
Primary Voltage= 33 KV
Secondary Voltage= 11 KV
I have new motors of 450 Kw,3300 Kw and 2600 Kw on 11 KV with breaker and relay
combination.
Whole system is already running and properly protected and coordinated.
I am giving over current setting for newly added motor and trying to alien theses settings with
existing protection philosophy.

o
o
o
o

Kindly tell me setting criteria (Pick up / Time) for over load relay (49) with Locked rotor and too
long acceleration settings (48/51 LR)? Share with me some reference material from international
standards if possible? Thanks
Like
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
7 days ago

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada
On 02/22/15 10:59 AM, Halim Bensmaia wrote:
-------------------Low voltage only: It is a challenge to design low-voltage distribution systems for sensitive arcing
current detection while maintaining
selective coordination. Recommendations for maximum low-voltage feeder-breaker current
ratings that allow a unit-substation secondary-main circuit breaker shorttime or instantaneous
trip to be sensitive enough to detect and trip on arcing currents, while retaining coordination with
the feeder-breaker settings. The recommendations can be organized according to transformer
kVA rating. Also should be discussed discussed are other variables, such as primary-source
impedance, instantaneous pickup, tolerance of the feeder, and transformer ratings.
On 02/22/15 4:52 AM, Sreenivas Suri wrote:
--------------------

Yes we need to have 50 if the fault level exceeds or nears 35kA. I usually don't opt for a 50 in the
downstream for say a 25kA fault level. Once the fault level is higher (say 30kA and above then 50
is preferable to limit the damage by clearing with-in 3 to 4 cycles. Even 3 to 4 cycles is a large
time of 60 to 80 milliseconds. All the while I do opt for a 50 in the upstream of the transformer.
Normally, I set 50 for 10 to 12 times FL current which is usually the inrush maximum. Larger
systems I too recommend all types of different protections. 50, 51, 50N, 51G, 64, etc. +
differential if transformers are more than 4MVA
Reply All
o
o
o
o

Like
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
2 days ago

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada
At MV distribution or transmission voltage level, secondary bus usually you have differential
protection. You still can use 50 as backup. Can you clarify the 35 kA and 25 kA limits? what
voltage are you refering LV, MV or HV?
On 02/22/15 10:40 AM, Halim Bensmaia wrote:
-------------------Yes you are right; it is good to have to limit damage and arc flash (reduce to lower limit say 2 or 1
level). However, there are
different protective levels and considerations when you are at low voltage (compare to MV).
Selectivity can also be an issue at low voltage. I had a paper dealing with LV systems and making
a full assessment on LVCB trip characteristics . I need to find it and we can discuss with further
details

o
o
o
o

On 02/22/5 4:52 AM, Sreenivas Suri wrote:

-------------------Yes we need to have 50 if the fault level exceeds or nears 35kA. I usually don't opt for a 50 in the
downstream for say a 25kA fault level. Once the fault level is higher (skA and above then 50 is
preferable to limit the damage by clearing with-in 3 to 4 cycles. Even 3 to 4 cycles is a large time
of 60 to 80 milliseconds. All the while I do opt for a 50 in the upstream of the transformer.
Normally, I set 50 for 10 to 12 times FL current which is usually the inrush maximum. Larger
systems I too recommend all types of different protections. 50, 51, 50N, 51G, 64, etc. +
differential if transformers are more than 4MVA
Like
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
2 days ago

Halim

Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada

o
o
o
o

I will also provide later settings at 11 kV for the motors as well. For the motors and the impact on
the upstream protection.
Like
Reply privately
Flag as inappropriate
2 days ago

Halim
Halim Bensmaia
Lead Electrical Discipline Engineer at Shell Energy Canada
Muhammad,
You still did not clarify how you are using 50 functions @ main and feeder relays @ 11 kV or
describe your 33vkV line terminate directly without any breaker @ the primary side of your
transformer. It looks like you are trying to find an acceptable protective scheme @ distribution
voltage level. So, you should limit yourself to distribution voltage level and acceptable practice.
For motor protection:
The function of the overload (49) element is to prevent overheating. To understand it you need to
use IEEE C37.96-2000 IEEE Guide for AC Motor Protection and digital relays can allow you to
adjust for any motor acceleration and/or heavy inertia ( it also depend for the standard you have
used to specify your motor ) .
Also, in your setting make sure, you take into consideration the motor contribution for a fault at
the bus when setting 50 elements upstream.