DownesWiley

AConversationonOpenEducationalResources

DavidWiley
BrighamYoungUniversity
StephenDownes
NationalResearchCouncilCanada

Introduction

CoverphotobyDArcyNorman.http://www.flickr.com/photos/dnorman/3812258149/

PartOneProviding,Supportingand
ProducingOERs

Segment1(9:0010:30)
Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley1.mp3

WhatareOERsandWhydowewantThem?What'sOurObjectiveHere?
ProvidingLearningvsSupportingLearning
PerspectivesonOERs:UsersandProducers
OERsCreatedbyProvidersvs.CreatedbyCommunity

Moderator:ChrisLott

Chris:Wehavefoursessionsplannedtoday,sotheroadmapisthatwe'llstartwithproducing,
supporting,creatingOERmaterials.Whatdoesthatmean?Whatisit?Talkingabout,thesecondsession,
educationlicensing.We'llthenmoveontoinstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism,andwhatdoes
thatwholeproblematicentail?Eachofthesecouldbeafulldaylongeasilyandfinally...
Stephen:Asemesterlong.
Chris:youknow,what'snextyeah,awholesemester,awholeclasswhat'snextandwhydowe
botherwiththisandwherearewehappy?WhichIthinkthisconversationisuniquelypoisedatthe
beginningofthisimportantconferencefollowingthisconversation,soitwillbeinterestingtoseehowit
playsout.DavidandStephenreallydon'tneedmuchintroductionfromme,butjusttoquicklynote:
StephenDownesisSeniorResearcherfortheNationalResearchCouncilofCanada'sInstitutefor
InformationTechnology,whichispartoftheLearningandCollaborativeTechnologiesgroup.Ihadto
writethatdown,Icouldn'trememberit.Youprobablyknowhimfromextensivekeynotes,
presentations,OLDailyofcourse,whichyoushouldbesubscribedtoorreadingifyou'renotalready,
hardtobelieveanyofyouwouldn'tbe.
AndthenwehaveDavidWiley,who'stheAssociateProfessorofInstructionalPsychologyand
TechnologyatBrighamYoungUniversity,ChiefOpennessOfficerofFlatWorldKnowledge,andfounder

oftheOpenHighSchoolofUtah.SoyoucanfindDavidatopencontentdotorg,andyoucanfind
StephenDownes,ofcourse,atDownesdotCA.Soifyou'renotreadingthemalreadyyoushouldbe.And
withthatIwillkickitoff,handitovertoStephenandDavidtogetstarted.Again,usethehashtagand
Twitterifyouhaveanycommentsorquestionsandwe'llworkthemintotheconversation.That'sit,it's
allyou.
David:Whoismoderatingthisfirstblock?
Chris:Iam.ChrisLott.
David:Verygood.
Chris:Yes.We'llhavedifferentmoderatorssittinginthehotchairoverthere,tryingtoworkinthe
conversation,butyoucanalwayscometomeifyouhavequestionsoranythingonthelogisticsofwhat's
happeningheretoday.
David:Nowwe'resupposedtotalktoeachother..
Stephen:Forhowmanyhours?
Chris:Ninetyminutestostart.
Stephen:Okay,I'llgetstartedhere.Those,thoseofyouwhoknowDavidormyselfknowthatwesharea
greatdealincommon,andinparticularadedicationtowardopeneducationalresourcesandopen
educationgenerally,alongwithahostofotherthings.Thoseofyouwhoknowusalsoknowthatfor
whoknowshowmanyyearsnowwe'vehadaninterminableseriesofargumentsaboutsomebasic
conceptsrelatedtoopenness,opennessineducationandalloftherestofit.
LastMay,duringoneofthose...
David:Youfoundthedate.
Stephen:Ifoundthedate,Iactuallyfoundthepost..andnowI'velostit.Ohwait,hangon.Last,last
May,Mayseventhtobeprecise,Iposted,andIquote:DavidWileyrespondstocommentsincluding
oneofmineandinthecommentsIstrivetofindthefundamentaldisconnectbetweenWiley'sviewand
myown.Hereplieshere,there'salinkthereinmypost,leavingmewithanumberofpointstoanswer.
Whatthetwoofusreallyneedtodoofcourseistositdownforadayorthreeandhaveaconversation
abouttheseissuesandthenhaveittranscribedandpostitasanopenbook.I'dmakethetime.
Nowit'sreallyeasytothrowsomethinglikethatoutwhenit'slateandyou'retryingtogetanewsletter
outfortheday.SurprisinglyDavidwritesbackandsays'I'lldoit.'
David:I'mcomingtoCanada,Vancouver'sclosebecausethat'sinCanada,let'sgettogether.
Stephen:TheothersideofCanada.Anyhow.Sothat'sthegenesisofthis,isoneofourinterminable
disputes.We'vesetupthescheduleandthe,thescheduleisavailableonline,ontheopeneducation
conferencepages,thewebsite.

Androughlywe'vebrokenthediscussionintofourmajorsegments:thefirstsegmentonproviding,
supporting,producingopeneducationalresources;thesecondoneducation,learningandlicensing;the
thirdoninstitutions,accreditationandcommercialism;andthenfourthonwhat'snext,whybother?
Ineedtosetthisupalittlebittoobecause,nottodiscountthepeopleintheaudience,butthisis
intendedasaconversationbetweenDavidandmyself.Andwe'vedeliberatelynotpromoteditallover
theplacebecausewedidn'twanttocreatesomesortofspectacle.Andsohereweareinthisbeautiful
courtroom(laughter)withanaudienceandlivestreaming.
Butthatbasicallyisgoingtobetheformatandsowereallydowanttoreiterate,feelfreetoleaveatany
pointifyoufindmoreurgentbusinesslikewatchinggrassgroworwhateveroutside,wewon'tfeelatall
insulted.WearegoingtobemonitoringtheTwitterbecauseifyou'resittingthereandhavetogeta
commentoutanddon'twanttobelikecompletelyfedup,wewillbemonitoringitsoyourcomments,
oratleastahundredandfortycharactersofit,willbeseenandheard.Thesameforpeoplewhoare
watchingthelivestreaming,bothofyou.
WewillbewatchingtheTwittersoyoucangetcommentsintous.Theremaybetime,shouldthe
conversationlagatanygivenpoint,forthe,forsortofdiscussion.Youknow,wemayatthatpoint
entertaincommentsandsuggestions,etcetera,fromtheaudience.ButreallythepointhereisforDavid
andmyselftoengageina,inasustainedexaminationoftheseissues,togetasdeeplyintothemas
possiblethroughdialogue,andperhapseventoresolvethedifferencesthatwehavebetweeneach
other.ThatwouldbeprettycoolandIholdouthopethatthatispossible.
Youknow,despitethefactthatwecomefromverydifferentstartingpointsIthink,andIreallydothink
wecomefromlikecompletelyoppositeendsofthespectrumasastartingpoint,despitethatIdothink
thatthereiscommonground,andindefiningthatcommongroundwecancomeupwithsomesortof
ideaofwhatthewholeconceptofopeneducationalresourceslookslike.
Thefirstitemontheagendathereforeis:whatareopeneducationalresourcesandwhydowewant
them?What'sourobjectivehere?Ithinkthat'sprobablyagoodplacetostartbecauseeventhereIthink
wemaybecomingfromadifferentplace,andmypresumptionrightoffthebat,you'recomingfroma
universitybackground,you'reaworkingacademic,aprofessor;me,althoughIhaveanacademic
background,I'mnotinauniversitynow,I'mthinkingoutsidetheuniversitycontext,andindeedwhat
happensoutsidetheuniversitycontextisveryimportanttome.ButI'llturnitovertoyounowbecause
I'vetalkedmytwominutes.Andwhatdoyouthink?Whatis,whatareweupto?
David:LetmestartbysayingthatIdothinkthatwehaveexactlythesamegoal,whichIthinkiswhat
producesthecommonrespectthatwehaveandourwillingnesstositdown,eventhoughwearguedfor
yearsandyears,becausewearetryingtogetatthesamething,Ithink,whichiseitherincreasedor
universalaccesstoeducationalopportunityforpeople.Andeventhoughwecomefromdifferent
trajectoriestowardit,that'ssomethingwebothcarereallypassionatelyabout.Sothat'swhatmakesit
interestingtome,becausehowmanydifferenttotallycontradictorysetsof,youknow,tacticscanyou
useandstillarriveatthesamegoal?

Sowhatisitwe'reupto?Thereisadebateaboutwhetheraccesstoeducationalopportunityisreally
sufficientornot,peoplelikeKatarinaTomasevski,whopassedawaylastyearortheyearbefore
(October4,2006ed1),whodidrighttoeducation.org,reallyarguedagainstaccessasaconstruct,and
reallywantedtoseemandates.Accesstoprimaryeducation,forexample,isn'tgoodenough,wehaveto
mandateitandwehavetorequireit.
AndinmybrainI'veneverbeenabletogetallthewaytothemandate,maybeIwilleventually.Ijust
thoughtweneedtoprovideaccess,provideoptions,provideopportunitiesforpeople,andthenasthey
choosetotakeadvantageofittheywill,andiftheydon't,theywon't,andI'mnotgoingtomeddlein
whethertheyshouldhavetoornot.ButIthink,likeyousay,IthinkIthinkmoreabouthigher
educationandKatarinawastalkingmoreaboutprimaryschoolone,andsecondaryschoolandthings
likethat.
Tomewhatitiswe'reaboutiswe'retryingtogeteducationalopportunityinfrontofpeoplethat,for
whateverreason,didn'thaveitbefore.AndIthinkthedistanceeducationtraditionispeoplewhoare
timeboundorplacebound.Ithink,andIguesswhatyou'dcallanopenuniversitytraditionhastodo
withtimeboundandplaceboundandmaybeevenqualificationbound,ifwecancallitthat,right?And
IknowyouhavethisherefromtheOpenUniversitySummer,youknow,theonlyrequirement'syou
havetobeoveracertainageandifyou,youknow,youmeetthatcriteriathenyougetin.Sothere's
placebound,there'stimebound,there'sprerequisitebound,andIthinkwhatwe'retryingtoaddon
topofthatwithopeneducationismaybeanideaofbeingfinanciallyboundsomehow.
Youknow,therearepeoplethatdohavethetimeandpeoplethatreallywouldliketoincreasetheir
education,whetherit'sformallyintermsofcredentialsortheyjustwanttopickupadditionalskills,but
theycan'tafforditorit'snotavailabletotheminawaythattheycanunderstand,becausemaybeit's
onlyavailableinEnglishorit'sonlyavailableinMandarinorsomething,theyreallyneedsomebodytogo
andlocaliseitforthemtobeabletouseit.But,butIthinkwhatwe'reaboutistryingtoincrease
opportunity.
Stephen:Okay.Ithink,okay,toacertaindegreeI'mgoingtoagreewiththat,andsoawaywego.
First,let's,let'sremoveoneissueoffthetable,Ithinkwherewewillfindsomeagreement,andthisis
theideaofmandate.Assoonaswegetintothetopicofmandatesmandatedthis,mandatedthatwe
moveintoanareathatI'mnotcomfortablewith.And,andIwillincludeinthatprimaryeducation,
secondaryeducation,aswellaspostsecondaryeducation.
Itmayseemirrationaltosaywell,howcanyounothaveamandateforprimaryeducation?Idon't
believeit'sirrational.Ithinkifweanalysewhatismeantbyamandateforprimaryeducation,whatis
reallymeantisnotthatchildrenofprimaryschoolagebecomeeducated,becauseit'simpossiblenotto
dothat.Theywillbecomeeducated,that'sbecausetheyareliving,breathing,learningmachines,thisis
whatchildrendo,probablybetterthananythingelseintheuniverse.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/216723/116055195197.htm

Themandatefocusesonwhatsortofthingstheyoughttolearn,somesortofcommoncoreorcommon
curriculum.It'sthis,inacertainsense,anattempttocreateconformitywithacertainperspectiveon
what,quote,tobeeducated,unquote,means.AndI'mnotcomfortablewiththat.Ithinkitistrue
probablythattherewerethingsthatmostifnoteverychildrenshouldlearn,but,youknow,Ioftenecho
theremarksofSeymourPapertwhenquestionedonthesubjectoffoundations:ifsomethingisindeed
foundationalthentheneedforitwillcomeupintheprocessofwhateverlearning...'Or,sorry,'inthe
processofwhateverdoingthechildmayhaveinmind.2
David:Sowecanputmandate...
Stephen:Wecanputmandatetotheside.
David:Weagree.
Stephen:Weagreeonthefirstpoint.
David:See,thatonlytooktenminutes.
Stephen:Yeah.Well,yeah,butIthinkwe'vejusthitapointwherelikeninetypercentofthepeople
listeningtousmaydisagree,so...Butnonetheless,butIthinkthere'sacrucialpointthatneedstobe
underscoredasaconsequenceofthisfirstpoint,andthatisopeneducationentailschoice;it'snot
simplycreatingopportunities,it'salsocreatingcapacities,creatingempowerment.Tohaveopen
educationmeansthatapersonisabletochoosethecourseoftheirownlearning.
And,andIthinkthatisgoingtobecertainlyoneofthemajorthemesI'llreturntooverandoverand
overaswegothroughtheday.Whatisanaccess,whatisaccesstoaneducationopportunity?Whatis
accesstoaneducation?Youknow,becausewhenyoutalkaboutit,youtalkaboutcredentials,youtalk
aboutskills,youknow,again,IkindofwanttobracketthecredentialingalthoughIknowhowimportant
thecredentialingis.
David:Forthetimebeing.
Stephen:Forthetimebeing.
David:Itmaynotbeimportantinthelongterm,butIexpectwe'llgettothat.
Stephen:Andsimilarly,youknow,skills,youknow,the,theideathatapersonseeksaneducationin
ordertoobtainacredentialorinordertoobtainaskillisarepresentationthatwehaveofitbecausewe
haveasystemthatisbasedaroundcredentialsandskills,moreandmoresoaswemoveintotheeraof
competenceframeworksandthingslikethat.But,again,Idon'tthinkthatpeopleenterintoeducationin
ordertogetthosethings,thosethingsaresteppingstonestothethingsthattheyreallywant.Andwhat
theyreallywantofcoursevariesfrompersontopersontoperson,butitissomethinglike,ifyouwill,
thegoodlife,whateverthatis.Anddifferentpeoplehavedifferent,differentdefinitionsofwhatthe

http://www.downes.ca/post/41

goodlifeis.Butthey'retryingtoleadtheirlives,they'retryingtomaketheirwayintheworldto,todo
thethingsthattheywanttodothrough,asMillsays,pursuetheirowngoodintheirownway.
AndIthinkthat,certainlythatunderliesmyownphilosophyofeducation:educationisn'tabout
acquiringskillstome,educationisn'taboutobtainingcredentials,itisn'tevenaboutthecontentofthat
education,educationisaboutpursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.It'saboutempowerment,
aboutbeingabletosetthedirectionofone'sownlife.Andhere,asyouknow,I'mechoing,well,people
likeFreireand,Illichandtherest.That'snotanewperspectivebyanymeans.So...
David:Sowhileyoucatchyourbreath,Iwouldn'tdisagreewithanyofwhatyou'vejustsaid.IguessI
wouldsaythatmypersonalemphasis,withformaleducationbeingsuchabigsystem,withittouching
andimpactingsomanypeople,andbeingsointegralandtosomany,youknow,everythingfrom
employmenttowhatever,whileIagreewithwhatyousaidmypersonalfocusisonmoreformal,you
know,kindsofeducation.Becauseitseemstobeindesperateneedofsomekindofhelporreformor
supportorsomething.
Andso,andI'msureithelps,likeyousaid,thatI'mafacultymemberworkinginsideofinstitutions,so
that'swheremybrainspendsmostofitstime.But,butIwouldn'tdisagreewithyouthatthe,theendof
educationis,ispursuingthegoodlife,whateverthatmeanstoyou.Foralotofpeoplethatmeansthey
wanttobeemployedatsomepart,somepoint,sotheycanfeedtheirfamilyanddocertainthings.And
ifemploymentrequiresacredential,thenyoustartbackchainingfromthegoodlifeand,foralotof
peopleatsomepoint,theytouchformaleducationthatway.
Stephen:Ateachstepinthebackchainthough,youneedtobeclear,thesearen'tinherentconstraints
thatareafactofnature,thesearethingsthatwecreate.
David:Ohabsolutely.
Stephen:Youknow,thefactthatyouneedtoobtainemploymentinordertosustainyourselfisan
artificeofsociety;it'sthewaywe'vebuiltsocietyandnotafactofnature.Andsowecouldconceiveat
leastIsawatleastonepersonwithaMaoTshirtintheaudienceconceiveofaworldinwhichthatis
notnecessarilythecase.Buttoreframeaweebit,doyouthinkthatprovidingpeopleaccesstothe
universityisthesameasprovidingaccesstoopeneducation?
David:Wellifyou'redrawingaVenndiagramobviouslythere's,openeducationisthebigbubbleand
thekindsofopeneducationmaterialsyouproduceinsidetheuniversityareasmallerbubbleinsidethe,
thebigbubble.Thereareallkindsof,takeWikipediaforexample,allkindsoflarge,veryvaluable
resourcesthatyoucanuseeducationally,andherewegetbacktothedefinitionofwhat,whatan
educationalresourceis,allkindsofthingswouldbeusefulinthiswaythatdon'tcomeoutofthe
university.Butjustbecauseit'struedoesn'tmeanthattheuniversityhasnothingtoaddofvaluetothe
bodyofthingsthatareoutthere.

Stephen:WellI'mnotgoingtocharacterisemypositionassayingthatuniversitieshavenothingtoadd,
thatwouldbekindofamisrepresentation,but,butlet'sbeclearaboutwhatuniversitiesareaddingand
whatthey'renotadding.
AndGeorgeSiemens,lastyearwhenwedidourConnectivismcourse3,Ithoughtdrewitoutreallynicely
byidentifyingthreemajoraspectsofopenness,right?There'stheopencontentisthefirstthing,
whateverthatmaybe,andwe'llcomebacktothat.Thenthere'stheopendelivery.And,again,thatmay
beanynumberofthings,but,butit's,youknow,soI'lljustusetheworddeliveryfornowandleavethe
definitiontilllaterifitcomesup.Andthenthethirdthingisopenaccreditationorevaluationor
assessment,etcetera.
Now,whichofthosedoestheuniversityprovide,whichofthosethree?Andwhichofthosethreeisit
necessaryfortheuniversitytoprovide,andwhichifanyofthosethreecouldwedowithout?Youknow,
thecontent,andweliveintheworldoftheInternetnowandwecanseethatcontentcanbeproduced
insidetheuniversity,contentcanbeproducedoutsidetheuniversity.Soclearlywecanenvisionaworld
withouttheuniversityandstillhavethecontent.Similarly,Iwouldsaywithdeliveryit'slessobvious,
but,youknow,especiallyonceourconceptofdelivery...JustwaitforDavetoremountthemicrophone.
David:Lookslikeasmallfirtreehere.
Stephen:Notthatsmallafirtree.Youknow,youknow,asweexpandourconceptofwhatdeliveryis,
youknow,Imeanitusedtobedeliveryofaneducationwassomeguystandinginfrontoftheroom
lecturing,that'sdelivery.
David:Nowit'stwoguys.
Stephen:Nowit'stwoguys.Sowe'retwiceasgoodnow.
David:Exactly.
Stephen:Butweexpectthere'sstillmore.Butofcourse,youknow,Imeanlearningisbecomingmoreof
acommunity.Whenwestartedthatcourse,GeorgeandI,theConnectivismcourse,wewerethinkingof
modelsforlearning,thefirstmodelthatsprungtomymindinterestingly,welltomeanyways,wasthe
oldCambridgemodel,theoldOxfordmodel,whereinfactthestudentsmanagedtheirownlearning,
theywouldformlearningclubsorlearningsocieties.4Andprofessorswouldinteractwiththembut
typicallyonapersonalbasis.Andacourse,quoteunquote,was,wasacourseoflectures.Ifaprofessor
thoughthe,anditwasalwayshealmost,hadsomethingtosayhewouldgiveacourseoflecturesor,if
challengedbyoneofthesestudentclubs,wouldgiveacourseoflectures.
Butitwasn'tallstructuredandflakedandformed.Andtheideawasthatthestudents,toalargedegree,
wouldorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.Andwe'reseeingmoreandmoreofthatonline
now,wherepeopleorganisethemselvesintoalearningcommunity.

3
4

http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/
http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/connectivism/?p=49

Youmayrememberthe,theOpenEdconferencethatIattendedin,inUtahanumberofyearsago.Erin
Brewer'stalk,talkingabouttheYahoo,groupsandbeekeepers 5andpeopleorganisingtheirown
learningintheseYahoogroups,wastheonethatstuckinmymind.Idon'tknowwhybutitdid.Sowe
canconceiveofawayforlearningtohappenwithoutithappeningintheuniversity.
David:Absolutely.
Stephen:Sothatleavesuswiththeonlyessentialfunctionofuniversitiesasbeingthemarking,the
credentials.Andthat's,anditseemstomeandI'veoftenmadethepoint,ifyouremovethemonopoly
thatuniversitieshaveoncredentials,theuniversitysystemwouldbasicallycrashandburn,because
peoplewouldn'tseethevalueinpayingtensofthousands,hundredsofthousandsofdollarsfora
credentialwhentheycouldgetonefromMcCredentials.
David:Right.AndsoifyoulookinthetechnicalareasMicrosoftCertification,CiscoCertification,Red
HatCertification,whateveritisyouknow,ifyou're,ifyou'rehiringapersontorunandsecureyour
networkandyou'vegotsomebodywithaBSincomputerscienceandsomebodywithacertificationin
theplatformthatyou'rerunningyournetworkon,that'snotevenachoice,you'regoingtotakethe
credentialpersontentimesoutoftenoverthepersonwiththeBSincomputerscience,whatever.
SoIagreewithyourpointbutIthinkit'sactuallyfurtheralongthanyoujuststated.Ithinkthe
universities'monopolyonthecredentialisalreadywellunderattackandthatfront'sbeencompletely
breachedincertainareas,liketechnicalones.IdothinkthingslikeWesternGovernorsUniversityarea
reallyinterestingexampleof,here'sacompletelyaccreditedonlineuniversitythatoffersnocourses
whatsoever,allthattheyofferareassessments.
Isthatastatementontheirpartthatthey'vefiguredoutthatthat'swheretherealvalue,youknow,in
theuniversityis?Youknow,Idon'tknow,wouldbe,maybewegetBobonthephoneorsomethingand,
andaskhimbut...
Stephen:IsBobonlinehere?
David:Theydon'tcarewhereyoulearnedit,theydon'tcarehowyoulearnedit,theydon'tcareifyou
werebornknowingitsomehowortookitatMITopencoursewareorlearneditfromWikipediaor
whatever.Whenyoushowup,ifyoucandemonstratethatyouknowitthenthey'llcredentialyou.
Stephen:Youvegottopaythem.
David:Youpaythemforthecredentialingservice,yes.But,butthey'reanaccrediteduniversitythat
offersnocourses,theyonlyofferassessments.Andsothatseemstome,youknow,thatphenomena
plusthephenomenaofthetechnicalcertificationsseemstometosaythatthere'salotalready
happeningthere.AndI,Iagreewithwhatyou're,whatyou'resayingtheretoo.

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Stephen:Okay,wellgiventhatWesternGovernorsUniversityexists,whyisanyonepayingwhoknows
howmuchforuniversity?
David:Socomingbacktoyourcommentabouttheselforganisinggroupsversusthefacultymember
whoimposesthestructureanddoestheseotherthings.Charlie(Raguwith?),who'saneducational
theoristinmyworld,becausewe'rebotheducatorsbutwelivein(talkingtogether)fairlydifferent
worlds,Charlie'soneoftheoutsidereadersonmydissertationandhemadeaninterestingcomment
that'sstuckwithme,sayingthat:youknow,youcancutthegrassinyourfrontyardwithapairof
scissors,youcancutthegrassinthefrontyardwithtweezers.
Itturnsouttherearemoreefficientwaystodothingsandlessefficientwaystodothings.And
sometimesyoucareaboutefficiencyandothertimesyoudon'tcareaboutefficiency,sometimesit's
aboutthewalkthroughtheparkandtakingyourtimeandsmellingtherosesandjusthavingthat
experience,andthereareothertimesyoujust,youknow,maybesomebodylovestocutgrass.There
aresomethingsthatyoujustwanttogetdoneasfastasyoucangetthemdoneandasefficientlyasyou
can.
AndIthinkthattheparallelthereisontheonehandifyou'reinyourlearningexperienceforthesakeof
learning,andsomepeoplewhoareinuniversityalsohavetheseoutsidethingsthattheyactuallydojust
becausetheycareaboutlearningandtheyenjoyitasahobbyorbookcluborwhatever,youknow,then
youspendthetimeandyougetintotheflavourandtherichnessandyouwanttosavouritand,you
know,milkitforallit'sgot.
Butontheotherhandifyoujustneedacredentialsothatyoucanbeemployed,wellyoumightwant
thiskindof,theruthlessefficiencyofMontyPython'sSpanishInquisition,right?Justasfastaspossible,
asefficientlyaspossible,getmethroughand,andifyoudon'tknowthedomainhavingsomeoneelse
setupastructureandsetupapaththat'srelativelyfreeofobstaclesandthingslikethatisusefulfor
you,toincreasetheefficiencyofthat,youknow,trajectorythroughthere.
SoIthinkthere'sroomforbothandIthinkit'sreallyaquestionofwhat'syourendgoal?Areyoulooking
forthemostefficientpathpossiblethrough,eitherthroughasetoflearningexperiencesorapathtoa
credentialorwhateverthatis?Andifyouwantthatefficiencythenyouprobablyneedsomebodyto
helpyouputthattogetherthatknowsmorethanyoudoaboutit,becauseifyouknewenoughaboutit
tostructureitinamaximallyeffectivewayyouprobablywouldn'tneedtolearnalotaboutthedomain.
Orisitsomethingthatyoujustwanttospendsometimeinandspendsometimewithandabsorbmore
about?
AndsoIthinkuniversitiesarereallygoodforthiskindofhighlystructured,veryefficient,youknow,
here'showyoudoit,here'sthesupport,here'swhatever.AndIdon'tthinkuniversitiesare
particularlygoodplacestospendalotoftimereallysoakingupalot,youknow,that's,that'ssomething
thatyouwoulddooutsideofthescheduleandthepaceandthewhatever,theuniversitywhichseems
tobeaboutefficiency,andsometimesyouwantthatandsometimesyoudon'tIguessishowI'd
respond.

Stephen:SeeI'm,I'mstill...Tome,collectingahundredthousanddollarstopayforauniversity
educationseemstobeabouttheleastefficientwayofgoingaboutdoingit.So,andthat's,that'sthe
thingthatsortofsticksinmymind.I'mpuzzledathowyoucanhaveWesternGovernorsUniversity,
whichwillaccredit,orcredentialpeople,presumablyforanominalfee,Idon'tknowwhatthefeesare
so...
David:It'ssignificantlylowerthan...
Stephen:Yeah.Andyetthere'sallthisactivityintheotherspace.ButIthinkthat's,that'sprobablyalso
partofwhatwe'retalkingabouttoo,is,youknow,ontheonehandyouhavethelowcost,freeoption
whichispresumedtobebarebones,andontheotherhandyouhave...
(Phonerings)
David:Firstoneoftheday.
Stephen:Allright,youshouldgivethemaprize.Thehighcostoption.And,youknow,wehavethis,you
know,ifIhadadegreefromWesternGovernorsandyouhadadegreefromHarvard,whogetsthejob?
Youknow,soiftheobjectiveiscredentialingandiftheobjectofcredentialingistogetajob,thenit
seemstomethattheWesternGovernorsUniversityapproachisgoingtobelesseffectivethanthe
Harvardapproach,andthatistheeffectivenessthatpeoplearebuying.
David:Wellinamarketthat'sverycompetitivethatwouldbetrue,buttakeamarketliketeacher
educationinastateorregionthatisjuststarvedforqualifiedteachers,isemployingteacherspossibly
evenoutsidethelawbecauseatleastthey'rewillingtocomeinandwork,buttheydon'thavethe
credentialthattechnicallythey'rerequiredtohave.Now,ifinsteadofsendingthemthroughsixtyhours
ofschool,ifwecanjustgivethemsomeassessmentstoletthemdemonstratethatcredential,sothat
legallynowtheycanhavethisjobofbeingateacher,then,thenthat'sareallyusefulthingtobeableto
do,right?AndtheWesternGovernorscredentialisjustasgoodasanyothercredentialbecauseI'mnot
competingwith,youknow,athousandotherpeopleforthisoneposition.I'minapositionwherethe
lawsaysIhavetohaveacertainpieceofpapertowork,there'snobodyinthis,youknow,ormaybe
nursing,there'snotenoughpeopleinthisspacebutyouhavetohaveadegree,sowhat'sthemost
efficientpaththeycandofromhere?Dothey,orsothatIcandothatthingIwanttodo,thatpeople
wantmetodo,butthelawsaysI,nowIhavetohavethiscredentialbeforeIcanpractice.
Stephen:Ithinkwecantakeoutof,we'lltakeoutofthisfornow,Ithink,the,theassessmentpartofthis
andIthinkwecantaketheassessmentpartandputittooneside.
David:Yeah,becauseIthinkit'sonthescheduleforlateranyway.
Stephen:Isit?Idon'tknow.
David:Ithinkthat'sthethirdhour.

Stephen:Thirdhour,hourthree,yeah.
David:Ifyou'regoingtochangetopicsletmejustgetonemorethingin,becauseyousaidearlierthat
openeducationmeanschoicetoyou,andIwantedtocomebacktothat,andasonlyanacademiccanI
wanttotakefiveminutestoagree.Idon'tknowif,there'sa,there'sabookabout,abooktoteachyou
theRubyprogramminglanguagecalledWhy'sPoignantGuidetoRuby6,doyouknowthisbook?
Stephen:I'vereadit7.
David:Okay.So...AndWhyisWHY,forthoseofyoufollowingonathome,Whytheluckystiff.Ifyou
tooktenbooksofftheshelfatBordersthatwerebooksaboutteachingyourselftowriteinRuby,what
you'dfindisifyoutorethecoversoffofthemyoucouldn'ttellanydifferencebetweenthematall.
They'retheexampleshavenoflavour,they're...Andbasicallywhat'shappeninghereisyou'vegota
bookthatyouwanttoaddresstoasbroadanaudienceaspossible,soyoutakeouteveryexample,
every,anythingthatwouldmakeitfeellikeitwasreallytargetedatacertaingroup,youtakeallofthose
interesting,useful,cultural,contextualthingsoutandyouleavebasicallywhatlookslikean
encyclopaedia,somethingthat'scompletelydecontextualised,sothatwhenapersonpicksitupthey
don'tseeanythingthatoffendsthemandmakesthemthinkthisbookisn'twrittenforme,it'swritten
forsomeoneelse.Sotodothatyouhavetomakeitasblandashumanlypossible.
Tome,openeducationisaboutchoicebecausenowIcanwritesomethingfulloflocalflavour,fullof
localcontent,reallytargetitatmykidsortargetitatwhatevergroupIwantittobetargetedat,
somethinglikeWhy'sPoignant...YoupickupWhy'sPoignantGuide,youknowwithinthirtyseconds
whetherthisisabookthat'sforyouornot,andifit,ifyoulikechunkybaconthenthat'sabook,you
know,that'sforyou.Ifcartoonfoxesmakeyouangrythenyoudon'twanttolearnRubyfromWhy's
PoignantGuide.But,butthetenbooksontheshelfatBordersparadeaschoicewheninfactthere'sno
meaningfuldifferencebetweenanyofthem,exceptifyoulikeanimalsonthefront,youknow,youbuy
theO'Reillyoneorwhatever.ButwhenthingsareopenyoucanhavesomethinglikeWhy'sPoignant
Guide,notthatit,Idon'twanttomake,saythatit'sanexampleofthebesteducationever.
Stephen:No,butit'sagoodexample.
David:Butitrepresentsachoice,becauseit'ssodifferentfromeverythingelseitactuallyisameaningful
choicefromtheothertenbooksontheshelf.Andwhenmaterialismadeopenlyyoucanputallthat
flavourandpersonalityandstuffinthere,andthenwhenIshareityoucanpickitupandsay,youknow,
thisisgreat,theexamplesdon'tquiteworkforme,butIhavepermissiontochangethemsothatthey
meetmyneeds,right?Andsoit'stheabilitytoincludethatflavourandcontextandculture,butknow
thatsomeonethat'snotinyourtargetgroupcanstilltakeitandmakesomethingusefuloutofitanduse
it,thatistheinterestingpartofchoiceinopeneducationtome,becausewecanprovideaseriesof
thingsthatactuallyaremeaningfulchoicesfromeachother,andthenyoucantakethemanddowhat

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youwanttoitattheendoftheday.IthinkWhy'sPoignantGuideis,isagreatexample,notthe,maybe
notthebestonebutthat'soneofthethingsthat'smostexcitingabout,tome,onthechoiceside.
Stephen:Now,oneofthethingsthatoccurredtomeasyousaythatisthe,the,theveryfactthatwe
havethesecommercialRubybooks,thisbook,thisbook,youknow,makessomethinglikeWhy'sless
likelytohappenbecause,youknow,ittakesalotofworktoproduceaguidetoRubyoraguideto
anything,andpeoplearelesslikelytodoitwhentheredoesn'tseemtobeaneedtodoit.
David:Orafinancialincentive,isthat,isthatwhereyou'regoingorareyouconsidering...
Stephen:Wellno,because,because,becausethemorenicheyourmarketisgoingtobe,whichiswhere
thischoicecomesfrom,thelessyourfinancialincentiveisgoingtobeinanycase,right?Youknow,you
can'tmakealivingwritingforlefthandedalbinos,it'sjust,there'snotenoughofamarketthere,right?
Andindeedassoonasyoubringinthecommercialelement,assoonasyoubringintheideaoffinancial
incentives,you'repushing,youcreateasystemwhichhasasoneofitsbasicimpulsiveforcesapush
towardthatkindofblandtextbookthat'swrittenforeveryone,becausethat'stheonethatisgoingto
sellthemost.And,andsoyougettheseblandtextbooksandtheseblandtextbooks,because,you
know,nowthey'resubsidisedbycommercialsalestheyexist,theytakeupthespaceinthebookshelf.
AnditreallytakessomeonespecialtocomealongandwriteaWhy'sbecause,youknow,themarketis
saturated,themarketissaturatedwithbland,notrealchoiceoptions.Andsothevery,thevery
existenceofthefinancialmotivetocreateitselfarguesagainstthepossibilityofchoice.
David:Andsointheearlydaysofthefieldwhenpeoplesaidohwe'lljustgooutandwe'llfund,you
know,thebestalgebracourseintheworldandwe'llfundthebestgeometryandthebestAmerican
literatureandwhatever,thenitjustmakesyouwanttoputyourheadthroughawallandsayno,we
needahundredalgebracoursesorweneedathousandalgebracourses,andeachoneofthemneedsto
betargetedatarealgroupandtheyneedtoactuallybemeaningfullydifferentfromeachother,and
whenIlookatthemIwanttobeable...WhenIseetheonethat'sformeIwanttorecogniseitwhenI
seeit.Not,youknow,one,certainlynotone,andnottenthataretotalclonesofeachother,thatare
notmeaningfullydifferent.
Stephen:Yeah.Theclone,yeah,theclonecourses,there'snopointtothem,itbecomesallabout
brandingandmarketingwhenit'stheclonecourse.
I'mnotsure.Yousaytenalgebracourses.I'mnotevensureweneedtenalgebracoursesinthesense
that,youknow,eventhesamenessinherentinthedescription'algebracourses'istoomuchofa
cloning.But,but,again,that'sprobablytakingusoffintoanotherdigressionbecause,wellbecausewe...
AnotherofthethingsthatDavidandIhavedisagreedaboutovertheyearsisthenatureoflearning
objects.
David:Oh,thattookalmostanhour.
Stephen:Yeah.Well,but...

David:Butit'susefulbecausetalkingaboutopeneducationalresources,andtalkaboutduckingabullet
orgettingoutofthequestionwithoutreallyansweringit,Ithinkagoodwayofdescribingopen
educationalresourcesis,oraopeneducationalresource,aneducationalresource,isalearningobject
plusanopenlicense.
Stephen:Yeah,that'sonewayoftalkingaboutit.
David:AndnowI'vedefinedatermwithanothertermthatnooneknowswhatitmeanseither.
Stephen:Well,justtobringusfullcircle,myowndefinitionoflearningobjectisanythingthatcanbe
usedforlearning.Whichbringsuscompletelyfullcirclebacktowherewestartedbecausebythat
definitionanything,utterlyanything,canbealearningobjectprovidedthatsomewhere,sometime,
someonehasinfactusedit.Andindeedwecangowiththemobileversionofthatdefinitionhasthe
potentialtobeused.
Butitdoesraisethis,thispicture.Wethinkoflearningcontent,wehavethispictureinourmind,it
needstobecourses,itneedstobetextbooks,itneedstobe,youknow,organisedandsetup,andI
don'tthinkso,andIdon'tthinkthatyouthinksoeither.Ithinkthatyoucanliveinaworldwherea
pictureofaduckisalearningobject,properlysocalled,andwhereapictureofaduckisanopen
educationalresource.
Andgiventhatthereare,Icancheck,butprobablytensofthousandsoffreelylicensedpicturesofa
duckonline,wedon'tinfacthaveashortageofopeneducationalresources.Sotheproblemisn'tthat.
Theproblemissomethingelse.
Andpartofmyargumentistheproblemisthestructuresthatwehaveinplace,includinguniversities,
thatpreventusfromtakingthepictureofaduckandinsomewayforourselvesassembling,ifyouwill,
ourowneducation.Andtherearethesebarriersallthewaydowntheline,fromtheverydefinitionof
openeducationalresourcesandlearningobjects.
Youknow,onmymorecynicaldays,andI'manticipatingsomeoftheargumentthatwillcomeuplater,
onmymorecynicaldaysIthinkthattheconceptoflearningobject,withitseightysevenfieldsinthe
learningobjectmetadataandcontactpackagingandallofthat,wasdeliberatelydesignedinorderto
preventtherebeingopeneducationalresources,becauseitbecomessohardtocreatethemandto
mountthemandtousethem.Andreallyallweneededwerepicturesofducks.
Andifwehadsetupoursystemdifferently,wherewecreatedsystemsthatempoweredandenabled
learnersinsteadof,youknow,runningthemthroughthecattlechute,wecouldhavehadbynowa
mechanismwherepeoplecantakethesepicturesofducks,picturesofcowsand,youknow,and,with
theircommunities,createtheirownlearning.SowhenIlookatwhatarewetryingtodoinopen
educationalresources,andit'slikethatOECDconferencewewereatinMalmo8,where...

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/12/46/36162143.pdf

David:Don'teverconveneaconferenceinMalmoinFebruaryagain,please.
Stephen:Yeah,thatwaskindofamistake,wasn'tit?Andoneofthequestionsthatcameupwas,you
know,whatneedstobedoneinordertosupportopeneducationalresources?ThepositionIadvanced
thereandIcontinuetoadvancehereis:getoutoftheway.Youknow,it'snotaquestionofproviding
things,it'saquestionoftakingawaybarriers,takingawayrestrictions.Andthatrunsinmymind
completelycountertoanythingthatresemblesacommercialmarketplaceforlearningmaterials.
David:Iwaswithyourighttothatlastphrase,althoughIthinkwearegoingtouncoveradeeper
disagreementhere,usefully.Soletmebacktrackforasecondtoworkuptoit.
Idoimagineaworldinwhichapictureofaduckisalearningobjectandanopeneducationalresource.
ButIwouldalsosaythatacoursecouldbealearningobjectfullystructured,syllabus,exams,the
wholeshebangandthatthatfullcoursecouldalsobeanopeneducationalresource.Andthatthereis,
dependingonthenuanceyouwanttogivetotheconversation(Ihaveahunchwhichdirectionwe'llgo),
youcouldrefertoiteitherasanecologyorasamarket.
Buttherearesomepeople,comingbacktothepointImadeearlier,andI'lltrynottodothattoooften,
therearesomepeoplethatwantastructured,efficientpaththroughthe...Infact,theydon'twanttobe
runthroughthechutelikecattlebecausethatimpliesothercows.Getoutofthewayandletmerunas
fastasIcandownthispath.Therearepeoplethatwantthat,andtherearepeoplethatwanttheother.
Andsoweneed,dependingonwhetheryouwanttocallitamarketwithseveraldifferentthings
competingwitheachother,orjustanecologywheretherearedifferentalternativesthatallkindof
coexist,youneedthepictureofaduckandyouneedwhatever,butyoualso,toservethepersonthat
wantsthemoreefficientpath,youwantthecourse.
Sotome,whenyoutalkaboutalearningobjectoranopeneducationalresource,andyousaid,yousaid
alearningobjectisany,anyresourceIcanusetolearn,orsomethinglikethat,orthatIcoulduseto
learninthebroaderdefinition.
ThisisoneplacewherewehavedisagreedbecauseI'vealwaysinsertedtheword'digital'intothat
definition,becausethethingthatstartedmeonthisjourney,partofwhereIcomefrom,isthis
realisationthatwhenaresourceisdigital,thatbandwidthandRAMoverlooked,youknow,basicallyan
unlimitednumberofpeoplecanallusethatresourceatthesametime.Andthereisnoprintingcostand
warehousingcostanddistributioncostandreceivingcostandwhateverelse;it's,it'ssomethingthatI
canwriteonceandthatIcancopybasicallyforfree,giveawaybasicallyforfree,andabunchofpeople
canuseitbasicallyforfree.
Andthatnonrivalrousnatureofthedigitalresourceissomething,tome,thatseemsimportantto
enablelargescale,lowcostornocost,access.SowhenLTSChadthisdefinitionoflearningobjectsthat
includedpeopleandplacesandhistoricaleventsliketheWarof1812theeventwasalearningobject,
orJoanofArc,theperson,isalearningobjectitmademealittlecrazybecauseIthoughtwe'regetting

awayfromthespecialthingthatenabledthelargescale,lowcostdistributionthatIthinkis,Ithought
waswhatwewereafter.
Sothatdigitalpiecewas...Nowitdoesn'tmeanthatyoucan'ttakedigitalandthendomoreofaprint
ondemandordo,ordodifferentthingswithitinordertogetittothepeoplethatneedit.Butinterms
offreecopy,freedistribution,freewhatever,itbeingdigitalhasbeenimportanttomefromthe,from
thebeginning,asAnya,Anyawroteaboutthestoryofthecalculatortheotherday.
Stephen:Okay,thenletmejuststopyouhere.Ontheonehandyousayafullcoursecanbeanopen
educationalresource,ontheotherhandyousayithastobedigital.Soyou'resayingafullcoursecanbe
digital?
David:Ooh,youmayhavecaughtme,letmethink.Yeah,sobyfullcourseIguesswhatImeanttosay
wasthefull...WhatdidImeantosay?Certainlythefullcollectionofcontentthatyouuseforthecourse,
obviously.Butincreasingly,mostorallofthehumaninteractionyouhavearoundthatcontentcanbe
digitalaswell.ButIdon'tknow,I'mnotsurehowfarIwanttogodownthatpath.WhenIsaidit,Iwas
talkingaboutthefullcontentofthecourse.
Stephen:Yeah,yeah,you'vegottomeansomethinglikeacoursepackage,andtherearedifferentways
ofstructuringthesethings,right?
David:Whichcouldbeapictureofaduckandapictureofacowthatsomeotherpersonthathassome
expertiseinfarmanimalhusbandryhasfoundandputtogetherinastructuredwayformesothatI
didn'thavetospendmytimegoingandfindingthosethings.Atthebottomitmaybethesamevery
looselyknitcollectionofresources,it'sjustthatbecause,ifIcareaboutefficiency,maybeI'mwillingto
paysomeoneelsetofindthemandstructurethemformeinsteadofmehavingtodoitmyself.
Stephen:Yeah.I'mgoingtothat'sanotherthing,you'vehitthispointafewtimes,thecoursebeingthe
mostefficient.
David:Notthemostefficient,moreefficientthanmeflounderingaboutinadomainIknownothing
about.
Stephen:Whatwouldbethemostefficientthen?
David:Idon'tknowwhatwouldbethemostefficient.
Stephen:Well,Imeanbecauseyou'retheone,itseemstome,who'sbeensayingthecourseisthemost
efficient,andthenyousaymoreefficientthanflounderingaround.Well,thoseclearlyaren'ttheonly
twochoices.
David:No,absolutelynot.
Stephen:Okay.Moreefficient,well...Eventhere,youknow,efficiencyisaratioofobtainingsomesort
ofendorobjectivedividedbycost,okay?Ifyoudefineefficiencythatwayit'shardtoseehowacourse,

whichcomesinatthousandsandthousandsofdollars,isefficient.Butthat'sanaside,arelevantaside
butnonethelessanaside.
WhatI'mwonderingherethoughis,whenyousayacourseisthemostefficient,whatcanthisgoalor
outcomebethatthecourseisthemostefficientpathto?Nowatthebeginningofthisthingwesaidour
objectiveis,youknow,thegoodlife,pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway.Isacoursethemost
efficientwaytothat?
Onewonders,well,whydon'twejusthaveacourseofreachingthegoodlifeanddispensewithallthe
restofit?Itprobablyisn't,youknow,ifpeoplethoughtthatacoursewouldleadthemtothegoodlife
theywouldn'tdoalltherestofthestuffthattheydo.Andthis,thisiswhyIchallengeyouonwhata
courseis,becausewhatacourseisnotjustthematerials,notevenjusttheorganisationorpresentation
ofmaterials,butallthediscussionandthedialogueandthecommunitythathappensaroundthese
things,right?
David:Thatcanhappenaroundthem.Imeantherearehonestlycourseswherethere'snodiscussionor
dialogueoranythingthathappens.
Stephen:Well,yeah,andthenonewonderswhethertheyareefficient.Youknow,wehavetheone
pictureoflearningwherewecandefineefficiencyastakingxcontentandmovingitfrominstructorA
andinsertingitintostudentB.Idon'tthinkthat'samodeloflearningthateitherofushas.
David:Well,I'llarguewithyouaboutthatinaminute.
Stephen:Ohokay,right,okay.We'regoingtohavelotsoffunwiththat,aren'twe?Ithinkthatamore
appropriateaccountoflearning,andindeedanaccountthatismorealignedwithanobjectivelike
pursuingone'sowngoodinone'sownway,isnotacquiringknowledgeasthoughitweresomesortof
objectbutactuallyreshaping,remodellingthat'sabadword,ithassomanyconnotationswith,you
know,remodellingyourlivingroombut,butgrowing,developing,becomingacertainsortofperson.
And,inmymind,there'sarealdisconnectbetweenacoursepackageandthatresult.Andpartofthe
discussionaboutopeneducationalresourceshasbeen,inmymind,almostacommodificationof
learningasthiskindofthing.Youknow,ifonlywehadthesecontentpackageswecouldmost
efficientlygetthemintopeople'sheads.Andthatcertainlydoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersare
lookingfor.Maybeitis,itdoesn'tseemtobewhatthelearnersarelookingfor,anditcertainlydoesn't
seemtometobethemodeloflearningthatwewanttobeworkingwith.Whichmeansthatwhenwe're
talkingaboutopenlearningandopeneducationalresourcesweneedtohaveamorenuancedviewof
whatopenlearningactuallyis,andnotjust,youknow,awarehouse,let'sshipitoutlikeitwastext
books.
David:SoI'mnotembarrassedtosaythatIthinkyouprobablyreadevenmoreoftheresearchthanIdo,
becauseyouseemtoneversleep,alwaysbereadingorwritingsomething.Andyou,youcanthrow
studiesoutifyouwanttotakeissuewiththewaytheymeasurewhetherlearninghashappenedornot,
butIdon'tthinkthatyou'lldisagreethatthere'sstrongconsensusintheliteraturethatthere'saletme

saythiscorrectlyaninverserelationshipbetweenaperson'sknowledgeofadomainandtheirneedfor
structuretofurthertheirlearninginthedomain.
SoifI'macompletenovice,ifI,ifI'veneverheardtheword'geometry'beforeifIdon'tknowapoint
fromalinefromaplaneIneedalotofhelp.IfI'vetakenacoupleofcoursesingeometry,nowI'm
maybeinaMastersprogrammeinmathorsomething,youcanprobablysetmelooseonthewebtogo
findresourcestoteachmyselfandIcan,andIcantakemytimeandIcanhavethisotherkindof
experience,whichwasreallynotpossibleformewhenIknewabsolutelynothingaboutthedomain.
So,again,comingbacktothisideaoftheecologyorthemarketorwhatever,andtodisagreewithyour
pointaboutFreire'sbankingnotionofeducation 9,aboutjustpouringstuffintopeople'sheadoraboutit
beingabouttransfer,wesaythat'snotthekindofeducationthatwe'relookingfor,justtransferring
knowledgefromthefacultytothestudent,fromtheteachertothestudent.Eventuallyit'snot,butI'm
notsurehowelseyoubegin,unlessyou'rereallywillingtodedicatealifetimetosomehowrediscovering
foryourself,throughadiscoveryprocess,youknow,thefundamentalaxiomsofgeometryorsomething.
Now,there'svalueinthatexperience,therearepeoplewhowouldliketohavethatexperience,that
wouldchooseto,soweneedtoprovideresourcestosupportthembecausechoiceispartofwhatwe're
talkingabout.Buttherearealsopeoplethat,forwhateverreason,justwanttogetabasichandleon
geometryandreallydon'twanttospendmorethanfifteenweeksonit,andthey'rewillingtopaythree
hundredandfiftydollarsacredithourforsomebodytohelpthemdoinfifteenweekswhatwouldhave
takenthemtwoorthreeyearsorwouldhavebeenimpossibleforthemotherwise.
SoIthinkthatthisisacontinuum.AndIthinkIhatethesetermsmorethanyoudoeven,butI'mgoing
tousethemanywaybecausethey'rejusttheeasiestshorthandtouseanovicejustneedsmore
support,needsmorestructure,needsmorehelp.Andasthatpersongrowsinexpertiseinadomain
thentheyreachapoint,somewhereinthemiddlemaybe,wheretheycanstarttolearnontheirown
withoutthatcoaching,withouttheguidance,withoutsomeoneelsestructuringitforthem.Until
eventuallytheyreachthepointwherethey'reactuallygeneratingnewknowledgeinthefield;that,that
it'snotstuffthey'velearnedanywhere,thisissomethingthatthey'vereachedsuchamasterythatthey
can,youknow,theycangeneratenewinsights,newusefulthingsthatpeoplehaveneverseenbefore.
SoIdon'tthinkit'sfairtosaythatwedon't,wedon'twant'bankingeducation'kindofeducation.
AlthoughnowI'mbeingstreamedasdisagreeingwithFreireIwon'tbeabletosleeptonight.ButIdo
thinkatsomepointtherearesomepeople...Imeanifyou'regoingtocomeintobiologyorgeometry
youjusthavetomemoriseallof,there'sawholevocabularyyouhavetoknoworyoujustwillnotbe
workableinthefield.Andwetalkaboutgrowthlearninganddrillandkillandwhatever,webelittleit,
butItellyouwhat,ifyoudon'thavethatbasicunderstandingofvocabulary,thetermsandthe
meaning...
OnemorestorybeforeIletyourespond.Igot,IgotinaprettygoodfightwithTomDuffyatareception
atARAacoupleofyearsback,onthistopic,aboutmultiplicationpapers.Tom'swhatIwould

http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/education/freire/freire2.html

characteriseasamoreradicalconstructivist,maybenotcompletelyradicalconstructivist.Buthewas
sayingtome:it'sunconscionablethatweaskpeopletomemorisemultiplicationtables.Whatwe
shoulddoissomethinglikeweshouldsetupastoreintheschoolclassroom,weshouldhavepeople
buy,kidsshouldbuythreeapplesandthentheyshouldbuyfiveorangesandthey,theyshouldhavethis
experience,youknow,somanytimesthateventuallyitjust,youknow,thattheylearn,theydiscoverfor
themselves,whatever,theycometoamasteryofthemultiplicationtablesthroughthisprocessofdoing,
andnotjustsittinginacornerwithachartandmemorisingmultiplicationtables.Andinfact,ifyou
memorisethemultiplicationtablesit'simpossibleforyoutoactuallyunderstandwhatmultiplicationis
andmeans.AndIsaidTom,Imemorisedmymultiplicationtables.Andhesaidtomeyoudon'tknow
whatmultiplicationisorwhatitmeans.Sorry,itseemedrelevant.
Stephen:Andit'sanicereductio.Okay,coupleoflineshereofreasoning.AndIwanttobeclearfirstof
allthatI'mnotinapositionwhereI'madvocatingapurelyconstructiviststancetolearning,Iamnot
advocatingapurelydiscoverylearningmodel,andIwanttobecarefulnottobecaricaturedasthat,
okay?Now,it'sthe,thewhole,youprobablysawthestuffIwroteaboutKirschner,ClarkandSweller10,
and,youknow,it's,it'satacticthatthatsortofgroupuses,right?Ohyouhavetodiscovereverything
foryourself,youhavetoreinventmodernphysics,whichisabsurd,right?Yeah.Tookusthree,four,
whatever,thousandsofyears,ahumanisn'tgoingtodothatintheirlifetime.
AndanotherthingIwanttosay,andbereallyclearabout,memorisationworks,weknowthis,right,we
havetonsofempiricalevidence,youcanindeedmemoriseyourmultiplicationtables.AndIwill,Iwill
sayveryclearlythatIthinkyoustillcanunderstandwhatmultiplicationmeanseventhoughyouhave
memorisedthemultiplicationtables,althoughitmaytakeyoualifetimeofclosestudyinordertogetat
that.Ioncetooka,aclassinthephilosophyofmathematicsand,youknow,sittingtherequestioning
likethebasicprincipleofsubstitutivity,Canyouactuallyputafiveinthisplacewhereyouhadafour
before,isthatalegitimatemove?And,youknow,wellthat'sagoodquestion,right?Justbecausethis
formulaworkswithafive...Anyhow,totallyaside.
Sograntthat,okay,wecangrantthat,peoplecanlearnbymemorising.Thatthat'sinfacttheproblem,
peoplecanlearnanythingbymemorising,doesn'tmatterwhetherit'strueorfalse.Andinfactthe
unrestraineduseofmemorisationinlearninghas,asitsmostdevastatingconsequence,notthefactthat
peoplefailtolearn,butratherthefactthatpeoplelearnthingsthatareverydamaginglike'myraceis
thebest,'or...
David:Indoctrinationorpropaganda.
Stephen:Yeah.Soontheonehand,yeah,memorisethemultiplicationtables,okay,fairenough.But
thereisn'tmuchfurtherbeyondmultiplicationtableswhenlearningbecomesnotsimply
straightforward,axiomaticfact.Thequestionsofvaluebegintocomein,andtocomein.Andthenthe
modeloflearningasbeingguidedtakesontwoaspects:oneaspectis,youknow,theacquisitionof
knowledge,whateverthatmaybe;andtheotheraspectisofcoursetheacquisitionortheforminginto
apersonofacertaintype,andteachingbecomesapracticeofreplicatingthattypeofperson.

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David:Soareyouagreeingthatasyoumovefrombeingacompletenoviceandgrowinexpertisethat
thatstructurethat'snecessaryforyoudoesfade,canfadeaway?
Stephen:No,allofwhatIsaidnowisapreludetoaddressingthenovicequestion,okay?And,andI'llsay
it,I'llsayitthestridentwayfirst,andthestridentwayisthatoneofthemostsignificant
accomplishmentsoftheeducationalsystemthatwehavehasbeentoconvincepeoplethattheyare
novicesfromearlychildhoodallthewaythroughintomidadulthood,theyneverstopbeingnovices.
Youknow,I...
David:Theydon'tactuallyeverstopbeingnovicesorweconvincethemthattheyneverstopbeing
novices?
Stephen:Weconvincethem.Afteragesthreeorfourthey'vestoppedbeingcompletenovices,right?At
threeorfourIcanunderstandyou'regoingtohavetogivethemsomeguidancebecausethey'llwalk
ontotheroad,theyreallyarethatilleducated,right?Andsoweneedtopreventthemfromwalking
ontotheroad.ButImean,youknow,youhaveapersonwhoisenteringuniversity,they'reeighteen
yearsold,they'vegonethroughtwelveyearsofformalschooling,eighteenyearsofinformallearning,
andyouturntothemandsayyouareanovice.Thereactionofthispersonquiteproperlyshouldbe
whatworldareyoulivingin?Youknow,sothefact,ifitisafact,thattheyarenovicesastheyenter
universityisanartefactofoureducationalsystem.Wehavecreatedthissituation.
David:SocanIpushonyouwithanexampleortwo?
Stephen:Goforit.
David:IwasgoingtouseSpanishbutthat'sunimaginableintheUnitedStatesrightnow.SoI'venever
heard,neverread,neverseenRomanianspoken,writtenasanexample.Igotouniversity,Idecide
I'mgoingtotakeacourseinRomanian.NowIdobringacertainamountofknowledgeaboutmyown
languagetothatexperience,butwithregardtoRomanian,amInotactuallyacompletenoviceatthat
point?
Stephen:DependsonhowyoudefineRomanian,right?IfyoudefineRomanianasthesetoffactsrelated
tothelanguage,spokenandwritten,of...
David:Thevocabulary,thegrammar.
Stephen:Right,thenyouareanovice.ButifyourepresentRomanianasasystemforcommunication,
onehumantoanother,you'vegotninetypercentofwhatyouneedalready,theonlythingmissingisthe
littlecodethattheyusetoexpress'I'mhungry'insteadofthecodethatyouuse.Youknow...
David:Iknowwhatnounsare,Iknowwhatverbsare,Iknowwhatpunctuationmeans,I,Ihaveallthat
backgroundfromEnglish.

Stephen:Yeah.Soyou'rereallynotanovice,youcouldinfactpickupRomanianremarkablymore
quicklyinfactthananativeRomanianspeaker,becauseittookthenativeRomanianspeakertenyears,
fifteenyears,tolearnRomanian,you'regoingtodoitinacoupleofyears.
David:Weren'ttheyspeakingitbythetimetheywerethreeorfour?AndwillIeverspeakaswellas
theydo?
Stephen:WellImeanIthinkafterevenayearofRomanianlessonsyou'regoingtospeakRomanianas
wellasafouryearoldRomanian,it'sempirical,wecouldtestthat.But,youknow,tobecome
conversant,ImeannobodywouldsaythatafouryearoldRomanianisconversantinRomanian,right?
Theycangetbybut,youknow,askthemaquestioninmetaphysics,they'llbestumped,right?
David:Sonooneisacompletenoviceinanythingbeyondtheageofthreeorfourbecausethere'ssome
lifeexperienceyou'vehadsomewherethatyoucansomehowmeaningfullybringtobearonwhatever
contentareayoumightenterinto,istheargument,right?
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Now,additionally,themechanismthatwehaveofdeliveringlearning,firstofallorganisedinto
coursesscience,art,psychology,biology,whateverandthensegmentedintoclasses,again,
perpetuatesthisthing,thisideathatpeoplearenovices,becausetheygettobeanoviceevery
September,right?There'sawholenewcourse,right?Andwhentheygotouniversityit'sevenbetter,
there'sawholenewsubject,entiresubjectareasthatdidn'texist.Butthisisaccomplishedagainby,by,
byreshaping,Iusethephraseinmyheadbyflakingandforminglearningintothesepackagesand
deliveringittothemasthoughitwere,youknow,Kraftdinner.
Infact,youtalkabouthowsomebodyneedstoknowthevocabulary,how,howtheycan'teven
communicateunlesstheyknowthewordsandwhatthewordsmean.Wecanand,and,andshould,and
insomecasesdo,putpeoplefromveryearlyagesintocommunitieswheretheyspeakusingthoseterms
andthatterminology.Now,again,thinknotaboutareaswhereyou'reanovice,thinkaboutareaswhere
youhavesomeexpertise,somepractice,especiallyifit'snotatraditionaloneofthesubjects,right?
Maybeit'sahobbyorsomethinglikethat,andthinkbackabouthowyouacquiredyourknowledgein
thatarea.Andofcoursebydefinition,becauseIjustdefinedit,youdidn'ttakeaclassinthat,butrather
youpickeditupbytalkingtopeoplewhoarealreadyinthatcommunity,thetradingcards,right?There
areno,Iassumetherearenoformalclassesintradingcards,right?Or,or,youknow,oreven,youknow,
baseball,right,okay,thereareclassesinbaseball,butnobodytakesthem.
David:Orprogramming.
Stephen:Orprogrammingisanothergoodexample.Andwhathappensispeoplestartplayingbaseball
orprogrammingcomputersfromanearlyage,butnotsimplydoingthat,theyengageinthis
conversationwithotherpeoplewhodoit.Andit'sintheprocessofthisconversationthattheyacquire
theknowledge,theyacquirethelanguage,theexpressions,and,youknow,throughpersonal

communicationwithotherpeoplemoreandlessexpertthanthemselvestheygraduallyacquirethis
expertiseinthedomain.So...
David:SoIwouldn'tdisagreethere,butIthinkbaseball,andIdowanttotakeusbacktoopen
educationalresourcesandtrytobridgeback.
Stephen:Andbaseballisatleastascomplexasmathematics.
David:Yeah.ButIthinkyoucansee,youcanseeexamplesofkidswhostartplayingbaseballatfiveor
eightorlittleleague,whateveritis,andtheyplayforfouryears.Andyouputtwoteamstogetherand
onejustbeatstheheckoutoftheotherteam,andthere'sobviouslybeenadifferenceintheefficiency
ofthetrainingthat'sgoneonduringthatsameperiodoftime,okay?Becauseinthesamefouryears
you'vegotsomekidswhohavelearnedtoplaybaseballalotbetterthananotherteamofkidswho've
beenplayingforthesamefouryears.
Andyouwouldassumethedifferenceisinthecoaching,inthestructureofthepractices,inthekindsof
exercisestheydidinpractice,andthewaythecoachstructuredtheexperiencesthatthosekidshad.If
allofthesekidsarereallybetteratbaseballthanalloftheseandthey'vebeenplayingforthesame
periodoftime,youhavetoattributethatdifferenceto...Imeanifthere'sonekidwho'sreally,you
know,who'sreallyastarandhe'smoreathleticorwhatever,butifyou'vegotawholeteamwith
superiorskillswhichyoucanseebythetimetheygettotwelveorthirteenandtheystartplayinginter
leaguekindofgames,youreallydostarttoseethedifferenceaneffectivecoachhasversusaguylike
mewho,youknow,coachesmyboy'sbasketballteam,butit'sreallyaboutgettingthemexcitedforthe
gameandmakingsuretheyenjoyit,andthere'snotthisemphasisreallyonskilldevelopmentand
conditioningandsomethingelsethatmaybeanothercoachdoes.
Stephen:Well,whatyou'vemadethestatementissomethingalongthelinesof:'allotherthingsbeing
equal,coachingmakesadifference,'right?Allotherthingsarerarelyequal.
David:Allotherthingsbeingequalenoughthough,Iwouldsay.
Stephen:Well,youthinkthat'strue?
David:Yeah,Imeanthecommunity,thecommunitythatIliveinnowcertainlyisavery,agroup,isa
placewherealotofpeoplearelikealotofotherpeopleinthiscommunity.Andalotoftheseteams,if
youjustlinedthemupandlookedatthem,ifyoureadtheirSES(SocioEconomicStatus)dataor
whatever,youwouldsayIdon'treallyseeadifference.They'reallaboutthistall,they'reallthisracial
background,they'reallthisSES,they'reallwhatever.Andthenoneofthemjustbeatsthesnotoutof
theother.
Stephen:Becausewhenyou'vetakenalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequation,thenthesignificant
differenceistheteacher,right?But,youknow,takingalltheseothervariablesoutoftheequation
simplymagnifiestheimpactofthatteacher.
David:Areyouarguingagainsttheimpactofteaching?

Stephen:Iam,becausethere'sawholelineofreasoningthat'splaysarolehere.Ithinkthatteachingis
onefactorintheattainmentoftheirbaseballskills,orwhateverskills,Idonotthinkitistheonlyfactor.
David:Idon'tthinkthatanybodywouldarguethatit'stheonlyfactor.
Stephen:Idon'teventhinkit'sthemostimportantfactor.AndinfactIthinkthatouremphasison
teachingasbeingreally,reallysignificantherecomessimplybecausewecontinuallyexaminestatesof
affairswheretheyareasyou'vedescribed;they'reallthesamesocioeconomicbackground,they'reall
thesameage,they'reallthesamerace,etcetera.
David:Ifyoudidn'tisolatethosevariablesthough,howwouldyoustudythecontributionofteaching?
Stephen:Whyisitimportanttostudythecontributionofteachinginisolationfromalltherestofthose
things?
David:Iassumeyouwanttoknowifit...Rhetoricalquestion?
Stephen:Well,well,alittlebitbecauseitsuggeststhatteachingcanhaveanimpactindependentofall
ofthoseotherthings,itsuggeststhatthe,the,theactoflearningissomethingthatcanbebrokendown
intoitsconstituentcauses.Butthisisreallyamultipledependentvariablesituation,where,youknow,
taketheverysameteachingandputitintoaclassroomintheDominicanRepublic,maybe,or...
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Right.So,youknow,youisolateforallyourvariables,thenyoulookatyourteaching,your
teachingworksbutonlyinthecontextwhereallofthesevariablesaresuchandsuch,changethese
othervariablesandtheverysameteachingbecomes,youknow,probably...Well,notprobably,Idon't
know,butcouldbeanegativeinfluence.Sowe'recreatingafiction,aren'twe,when,whenwedothese
studiesandisolatealltheseothervariablesandsayooh,thisisgoodteaching,thisisit.We'vecreated
thisfiction,it'snotevenknowledge,notevenafact,andwhenyougetgoodenoughatthesestudies
youcomeupwiththefactsfirst,thatyouwant,andyousetupyourstudyandthenyouextractthem.
David:I'masbig,canyoubeabigunfan?ButwhatamItryingtosay?
Stephen:You'reasscepticalas...
David:I'massceptical,thankyou,asanybodyaboutthingsliketheWhatWorksClearingHouse11,andI
hadalittleblogtiradingthatwholeparadigmofresearchrecently.12ButI'mnot...I'vegottwothings
competinginmymindhere.Idothink,Idothinkthattherearethingswecanlearnbystudyingteaching
thatcanmakepeoplemoreeffectiveteachers.Andwhatmoreeffectiveteachersmeansisthateitherin
thesameperiodoftimeastudentcanlearnmoreandrememberitlonger.Youcouldcomeupwitha
numberofdefinitions,butIdothinktherearepeoplewhowanttohaveamoreefficientexperience
thantheywouldhavebythemselves.Andifthat'strue,ifit's,ifit'struethenthere'sawholerangeof

11

http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/
http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/980

12

efficienciesImightbeabletohave,Imighthavetopaymoreforsome,themostefficientonesmightbe
free,Idon'tknow.
ButifIhaveasensethatthere'ssomebodyouttherethat,asI'msittinghereI'veignoredthe
repositoriesandI'vegonetoGoogle,I'veignoredLTSCLOMandI'veusedRSS,I've,youknow,I'vegone
onthesimple,highlyadoptedsideofthiswholething,notonthetechnicallearningobject,I'vegone
withthesimple,winningtechnologies.IfoundallthethingsIcanfind.
Icangiveyouagreatexamplethatisdrivingmeinsanerightnow,ItoldyouearlierI'mworkingonthis
analysisofcovarianceofsomedataI'mlookingat.Itookaclassinthistenyearsago,Ipassedtestsin
thistenyearsago.Ispenthoursyesterday,Ispentonehouractuallywiththeconsultantforthe
statisticsprogramme,andthenseveralhoursinGooglegoingthroughalltheseresources.Andthisis
theoreticallysomethingIknewatsomepointinthepast.I'mdiggingaround,I'mdiggingaround.Ispent
Idon'tknowhowmanyhourslastnight.Itwashighlyinefficient,itwasveryfrustrating.It'ssomething
that,intheory,Ididhavesomeexpertiseinatsomepointintime,andIwouldhavegivenjustabout
anythingifIcouldhavegottenahumanbeingtherewhocould'veincreasedtheefficiencyand
decreasedthefrustratingness,ifthat'saword,ofmyexperience.Iwantedthat,anditwasmidnightand
therewasnowayformetogetitandIgaveupandwenttobed.ButIwouldchalkthatuptomybeing
sortofnoviceyinstatistics,nothavingdonealotwithitfortenyears,sinceItookthatseriesofcourses
thatIhad,andnotevenhavingenoughbasicknowledgetogointotheresourcesthatareavailable,and
there'sgoodresourcesthere,andcomeoutontheothersideabletodothekindofanalysisthatI
wantedtodo.It'sinefficient,it'sfrustrating,Iwantedateacher.
Stephen:Ijustwanttosayonethingbeforethebreak.Ithinkalot'sgoingtohingeonthisdefinitionof
efficiency,Idon'tthinkyoucansustainitpersonally,andIfinditironicthatthestuffthatyoutooka
seriesofcoursesinisthethingthatyounowfindyourselfanovicein.SoIthinkthatthere'sefficiency
andefficiency,andwhatyoubelievedonceuponatimewasyourobjective,andthequickestwaytoget
there,wasinfactawayofmisrepresentinglearningthatyouhad,thatledyoudownafalsepath.You
wentveryquicklyinthewrongdirection.
David:IwouldargueIwentveryquicklyintherightdirectionandInevertoucheditagainfortenyears.
Youignoreanythingfortenyearsalmostanything,maybenotridingabikeyouignoreanythingfor
tenyearsandyou'regoingtobeworseatitthanyouwere.
Stephen:Ridingabikeislikeaskill,it'slikegrowing,wecomebacktowhatIthoughtlearningwas.Let's
takeourbreakandwe'llcomebacktoit.
Chris:Wehaveafewminutes,we'llcontinueafterthebreak,we'llhaveaboutfifteenminutes.
David:You'reagreatmoderatorbytheway.

PartTwoEducation,Learningand
Licensing
Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley2.mp3

EducationvsLearningandthe'EducationalLicense'Debate
'Enclosure',orNonLicenseMethodstoBlockAccesstoOERs
TheNCClauseofCreativeCommonsLicenses
MixingContent,MixingLicenses

Moderator:PaulStacey

David:SothewholereasonthatItookusdownthethirtyminutenoviceexpertpaththerewhichI
don'tthinkIapologiseforwasjusttosaythatIthinkthereisroomintheworldandvalueforopen
educationalresourcesthatarehighlystructured,thatlooklikeacourse,andonesthatlooklikeaduck
becausetherearedifferentkindsofpeoplewithdifferentneeds.Iiftheydon'thavedifferentneedsthey
mighthavedifferentpreferences,andwhoarewetotellthem,youknow,youcan'thaveanythingofa
structureputtogether,youhavetoassembleeverythingyourself?Orwhoarewetotellthemyoucan
onlyhavefullcourses,youcanneverhaveaccesstoindividualcomponents?
Ithinkthewholepointofthis,particularlyfromtheproductionside,isthatwewantpeopletoshare
whateverthey'rewillingtoshareandcomfortablesharing,andifyouwanttoshareyourpictureofa
duckthenthat'sawesome,ifyouwanttoshareyourcoursethat'sgreat.Andtheworldisabigenough
placethattherewillbepeoplewhofindvalueinwhateveryoushare.Partlybecauseofthedifferent
needstheymighthavebasedonpriorknowledgetheyhavecomingintothatexperience.Thatwasthe
wholepointofofthat.
Stephen:AndifIwantedtoestablishonething...Iwantedtoestablishmanythingsofcourse...
David:Onedaywon'tbeenough.We'llbebacktomorrow.
Stephen:ButonethingIwouldliketodrawoutofthatdiscussionisthatopeneducationalresourcesare
notnecessarilystructuredcoursesand
David:Absolutely.
Stephen:itisnotnecessarytomountthesecoursesinordertoprovideOERs,inordertoprovideaccess
tolearning.That'snottosaythatIwould,well,raisesomesortofinjunctionagainstuploadingcomplete
courses,thatIwouldmarchtoOpenUniversityandgoYou,you'redoingitwrong.WellImightbut,
butnot,notatthemoment.It'snotnecessaryinordertomaketheposition.Soifpeoplewanttoupload

fullcoursesortobemorepreciseinourlanguage,fullcoursepackages,becauseofcoursethecourseis
theinteractionaswell,fine,goforit.
Butitisnotarequirementandinmywayofthinkingitwouldworkjustaswell,ifnotbetter,ifthat'snot
whatwearedoing,ifinfactwhatwewereuploadingwerepicturesofducks,tocaricaturethatabit.But
moreaccurately,ifwewerewildlyandfreelyuploadingresourcesofwhatevertype.Andthenwemove
intothenextpartofprovidingaccesstolearningonline,whichis,provisionoftheresourcesor
mechanismforcommunitytoformaroundforthoseresources.
Andpartofmyconcernaboutthemodelofopeneducationalresourcesascoursepackagesisthatit
leadsusawayfromthatpictureofcommunityformingaroundtheresourcebaseandtowardsthisidea
thatlearningproperlysocalledwithabigLissomethingthatcanbe,youknow,assembledand
packagedandmountedasafullcoursepackage.Andinourdiscussiontofollowwewillfind,Ithink,that
thereareadditionalproblemsthatarecausedbythat,notrelatedtolearning,butcausedwithrespect
totheobjectiveofprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Goodenoughsofar?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Okay.
David:IactuallywanttotakeamomentandsaysomethingniceaboutMITOpenCourseWare.
Stephen:Allright.
David:Whichisn'tthevoguethingtodoIunderstand.
Thankyou(asifonqueuesomeonefromMIThandsmeabottleofwater).
Guest:Idon'tworkforOpenCourseWare.
David:YouknowIrealisethatsomeofthereasonthatpeoplecometoMITopencoursewareisbecause
oftheMITbrand.
Stephen:Right.
David:HoweverIthinkthestrokeofgeniusinMITOpenCourseWare,comparedtowhatweweredoing
withlearningobjectsinthedecadeleadinguptothat,isthatwhenyoufoundalearningobjectinits
contextfreerepositorywithitsnicelongmetadataandwhateverelse,youlookedatthatandyouhada
hardtimeimaginingallthethingsyoumightdowithit,how,orsometimesimagininganythingyou
mightdowithitwhenyousawit.
ThethingaboutMITopencoursewareisthatIthinkit'sactuallyasituationwhichyoucanbothhave
yourcakeandeatitaswell,becausehereareallthesethingsputtogetherinawaysothatyoudon't
findtheminarepositorydevoidofanycontext,youactuallyfindthemembeddedinaparticularcontext
thatisprobablyuseful.Butyoufindthemwithpermissionforyoutotakethembackoutofthatcontext
anddosomethingelsewiththem.

It'sjustlikefindingitintherepositoryinthatyoufinditandyoucantakeitanddosomethingwithit.
Butitalsohasanexamplecontextthatgivesyousomeideasabouthowyoumightuseit.That,
structuringthosethingsasacoursebutgivingpeoplepermissiontothenimmediatelytakethemapart
againIthinkiswhatmadethatsomuchmoreusefulandintriguingthatjustlearningobjectrepositories
outthereintheworldbefore.SoIthinkthatpartwassomethingthattheydidwell,thatwasuseful.
Stephen:Well
David:Idon'twanttosoundlikeI'malwayscompletelycriticalofMITOCW
Stephen:SeewhatI,IthinkofMIT,IthinkthatOpenCourseWarewasamarketingstrokeofgeniusand
hadverylittletodowithprovidingaccesstoopeneducationalresources.That'sjustahappysideeffect.
Whattheywantedtodoandwhattheywereveryclearaboutdoing,astheywentthroughtheprocess
oflaunchingOCW,wastosayThisisn'taneducation.Ifyouwantaneducationyouhavetopaytheten,
twenty,hundredthousanddollarsandcometoMIT.
David:Wheredid(Anya?)go?Hundredeightyninethousand,Ithink,iswhatAnya(Spurrier?)said.
Stephen:Ahundredandeightynine?
David:Yeah,forthefouryears.
Stephen:Okay,soI'mactuallyunderestimating.Right,that'sastrokeofgenius.They'veconvinced
peoplewhobeforewerethinkingtheinternetkillerappwillbeeducation(rememberJohnChambers?)
withthestrokeofapen,almost,theyundercutthatideaandsayNo.Educationiswhathappensat
MIT.Andsotheyreinforcedthebrandofcourse,butreinforcedtheideathatyoucan'tgetan
educationonyourown,youhavetocometoMITandlearnfromwhoever'satMIT.
David:Wellisn'tthatreinforcingtheideathatthedialogueandthediscussionandthediscourseareall
criticallyimportantpartsofthe
Stephen:Wellthoseareallcriticallyimportantpartsbutitdoesn'thavetohappenatMIT,right?Andso
it'sarebranding,butit'salsoaconceptualisationoflearning.Learningistheorganisationofmaterialsin
thiswaysuchthatitcorrespondswiththisdialoguethattakesplacewhere?AtMIT.Idon'tknowwhere
wegowiththatbut
David:Yeah.Nothat,wellIstartedwithakindofrandomdisconnectedthoughtandnowit'sendedup
disconnectedsoweshouldn'tbesurprised.
Stephen:Weshouldn'tbesurprised.
[Nexttopic]:Educationandlicensing.Forthose,forthatonepersonwhoisnotfamiliarwiththepointof
disputehere...
David:Ithinkthisisgoingtobethemostsurprisingoneofall.
Stephen:Becauseyou'regoingtoagreewithme?

David:We'llsee.
Stephen:We'llsee.
David:Maybeyou'regoingtoagreewithme.
Stephen:Ithinkthatwewillfindsomecommongroundbutwe'regoingtohavetokeeptherestofthis
stuffinthebackgroundbecause,anyhow,becauseIthinkit'simportant.
Youknow,likeIthrowglibremarksaroundlikeframingandcommercialisingandsoonbutyouknow,I
tryinthefirstsegmenttorepresentthesystemoflearningonlypartiallyasasystemoflearningbutalso
asasystemofmarketing.Andwhenyousayacourseisthemostefficientwaytogettosay
David:Imustobjectthatit'samoreefficientwaythandoingitcompletelyonyourown.
Stephen:I,well...I'llgowithmoreefficient,thekeywordhereisn'tmost,ormore,thekeyword
hereisefficient,right?Andyousayacourseisthemoreefficientwayofgettingtoaknowledgeof
geometry.Irepresentthatinmymindassomethingalongthelinesof,they'vegotyoufooledinto
thinkingyouneedaquoteunquoteKnowledgeofgeometry.AsIremarkedrightattheendofthe
previoussegment,they'vegotyougoingveryquicklydownthewrongroadandIthinkthat'sreally
important.
David:Theroadisthetopicofstudyiswrong?Idon'tneedtoknowgeometry,isthatwhatyou're,I
wanttounderstandwhatyou'resaying.
Stephen:Wellmostlyyoumightnot,geometrymightbeabadexamplebecauseitissofoundationalto
manyotherthingsthatwedobut,butyouknow,ImeanIcanimagineentirelifetimeslivedwithouta
needtoaccesstheprinciplesofgeometry,alawyermaybe.Idon'tknow.Okay,maybethat'saglib
remarkaboutlawyers,butyouknowwhatImean.Imean,it'sgoingtocomeupinalotofcontexts,but
inothercontextsit'snot.
Butevenmorefundamentally,therepresentationofaknowledgeofgeometryasthatwhichisattained
afterhavingcompletedageometrycoursetomeisamisrepresentationofwhatcouldpossiblybe
construedasaknowledgeofgeometry.Andyouyourselfprovidedtheexampleofhavingtakenallof
thesecoursesinwhateveritwas,factoring
David:Statistics.
Stephen:Yeah,andstillnotbeingabletodowhatitwasthatyoutookallthesecoursestolearnhowto
doandhowcouldthathavebeenefficient,youknow?Icouldimagineyoumaybenotbeingabletodoit
nowaswellasyoucouldtenyearsago,buttobestymiedandfeelinglikeanoviceagainisalmost
incomprehensible.AndsoIlookatthatandI'dsayWellyoudidnotinfactactuallylearnthesethings.
AndwhenIsaythat,ImeansomethingalongthelinesofYourbraindidnotgrowsufficientlysoasto
besomethingthathaslearnedstatistics,orthisparticularaspectofstatistics,thatyoumayhavehad
some,touseanoldstyleterminology,superficialimpressionsthatweresufficienttogetyouthrough

testsbuttheactualformationthatwouldhavetakenplacethroughanalternative,moreimmersive,
moreengagedprocessthansimplytakingacoursewouldhavebeen...mysentenceisfallingapart,but
thatalternativeprocesswouldhavebeenlearning.Thiswasn'tlearning,andthereforewasn'tmore,
muchlessmost,efficient.
David:SoIwilldisagreewithyouonthesegrounds.Likemyknowledgeofstatistics,atonepointIwasa
veryfluentJapanesespeaker.Icouldpassonthephoneasanativeandmeetpeopleandtheywouldbe
surprisedthatIwasagaijin.NowIdon'tusethatskillhardlyatallanymore.It'sbeenfifteenyearsnow
sinceIreallymadeheavyuseofitandnowIamnotafluentJapanesespeaker.Icansortofgetby.Ican
orderinrestaurantsanddothebasicthingsbutIdon'tthinkthat'sbecauseIdidn'tactuallymaster
JapaneseorIlearneditinasuperficialway.Ithinkit'sbecausewhenyouletadecadeoradecadeanda
halfpasswithoutusingamoderatelytechnicalskillthatyouloseitifyoudon'tpractiseitandstayupon
it.Idon'tthinkit'sthatIdidn'tunderstandJapaneseandthatIhadn'treallymasteredJapanesefairly
deeply.IthinkIjustletitgetoldanditkindofrottedbecauseIneverdugitupandpractised.
Stephen:IthinkthatyouwouldfindthatyoureacquireyourJapaneseremarkablyquicklyifyouwerein
aJapanesespeakingenvironment.Ithinkthat,youknow,Idoubt,orIcantestyourcontentionthatyou
don'tactuallyanylongerknowJapanese.
David:Thebasics,yes.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Themoretechnicalstuffno.Andthisisthesamestatisticsexample.Icanstilldobasicstatistics
butthiskindofstatisticsI'mtryingtodoisfairlytechnicalandfairlynuancedandtherearealotof
assumptionsandIjusthaven'tusedthemintenyearsandI'veforgottenthem.Andreadinguponthem
hasn'tbeenenoughtoputitallbacktogether.Youknow,Ineedapersontotalk',Ineedapersonto
helpmethroughthisprocess;justthematerialisn'tgettingitdoneforme.So,Idon'tthinkthatisa
commentaryonthecourses,Ithinkit'sacommentaryonwhathappenstothedecayofaskillordecay
ofknowledgeorforgettingorwhateverovertimeifyoudon'tpractise,youloseaccesstothatexpertise
orknowledgeorverybasic.
Stephen:WellIcanstilldrawthesamepointoverbecausewespendtwelve,sixteenyearsofourlives
takingcoursesandthenwestoptakingcoursesatacertainpoint.Iwouldarguethatinthetenyears
thatfollow,wedon'tuseninetypercentofthestuffthatwasinthosecourses,right?Solet'stakeyour
pointofviewasgiven,thataftertenyearsofnonuseyounolongerknowthestuff,I'lljustacceptthe
factasapointofargument.Sotenyearsafteryoureducationyounolongerknowninetypercentof
whatyoutookfromyoureducation.Howthen,Iask,isitthatyoureducationwasefficient?Imeanat
bestyouhavetenpercentleftandyouonlyhavethattenpercentbecauseyouspentthetimebetween
theendofyoureducationandnowactuallyusingthattenpercent.Sotherestofit,youcan'thaveit
bothwaysright?
David:Actuallyitsoundslikeyou'rehavingitbothways.

Stephen:WellI
David:Ithinkyou'remakingaveryutilitarianargumentaboutifyou'renot.Ifwhatyou'relearningisn't
somethingyou'regoingtouseinyoureverydaylife,you'regoingtouseitveryregularlyandvery
frequently,thenit'spointlessforyoutolearnit,istheargumentIhearyousaying.WhydidIspend
ninetypercentofthetimelearningallthisotherstuffifIwasnevergoingtocomebacktoit?
Wheremyperspectivewouldbe,IcutaprettybroadpaththroughmygraduateprogrammesothatI
couldlearnaboutmanydifferenttypesofresearchthatIcoulddoandIgotworkableenoughinallof
themtothenmakeaninformeddecisionaboutwhichkindofresearchIwantedtodoandIwentdown
thatpathandIleftacoupleofothermethodstotheside.I'dlearnedenoughaboutthemtobeableto
makeaninformeddecisionabout,youknow,whetherthatwasthekindofresearchIwantedornot,
decideditwasn'tandI,youknow,usedadifferentsetofmethodologies.
NowIwouldnottradehavinghadthatexperienceandmakinganinformedchoiceforsomeonesaying,
youknow,Icantellthatyou'regoingtodothiskindofresearch,sowe'lljusttrainyouinonetechnique
andyoudon'tneedtoevertakeacourseintheothersbecauseyou'reneverreallygoingtousethem
anywaybecauseIwantedtomakethatchoiceformyself.AndyoumightsayHowisthatefficient?but
Iwanttomakethatchoiceformyself.
Stephen:Butthat'sadifferentefficiencyIthink.That's,youknow,we'renotonthecorecurriculumkind
oftrackanymore,we'reontheDavidwantstoexplorekindoftrack,rightand
David:Becausewhenyou'redoingaPhDyou'repastthenovicepartandmoreinsortofexpertsortof
rangeIwouldargue.
Stephen:Wellifyou'redoinggradeeightgeographyyou'repastthenovicepart.
David:Let'scomebackaroundtoOER.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Wecandisagreeabouttheseotherthingslater.
Stephen:Wellbutitmatters.Butyeah,we'llcomebacktothis.
Allright,thelicensingdebate.Intherealmofcontent,whichiswhatopeneducationalresourcesare
presentedasnoticehowcarefulI'mphrasingthisopenlicensingistypicallyaccomplishedusingeither
CreativeCommonsorthe,ortheGNUFreeDocumentationLicencelessfrequently,andthat'sit.Ican't
reallythinkofotherswell,exceptyouropenlicenceaswell.
David:Yeah,althoughthankfullythelastholdoutswhoareRedHatandsomeofthoseotherfolksare
talkingfinallyaboutmigratingoffofthattotheCreativeCommonslicencesoIthinkwecanfinally
almostlaythewholemattertorest.

Stephen:AndtoalargedegreeIthinkthat'swhatwe'reseeing,theCreativeCommonslicensingisthe
defactostandardforopencontent.
David:Yeah,Ithinkthat'saccurate.
Stephen:WhichsoundsfineexceptofcourseCreativeCommonsisnotasingleentitybutratherasetof
licences,andthesetoflicencesiscreatedbyallowingthelicensor(thepersonwhoownstheresource
andisofferingthelicence)tomakeasetofchoices.
Andthechoicesare:attributionversesattributionnotrequired...
David:Actuallythat'snolongerachoice.That'srequiredoneverylicencenow.
Stephen:Ididn'tknowthat.Isn'tthatinteresting?
David:Becauseinversiononeofthelicencesitwasninetyeightpercent,doessomebodyknow?[pause]
Ninetyeightpercentofeverybodywassayingyouhavetoattributemeanywaysofromversiontwo
forwardtheyjustsaid,youknow,Forgetit,we'llputattributionineverylicence.
Stephen:Showsyouhowlongit'sbeensinceI'veupdatedmylicences.Ididn'tknowthat.That'snewsto
me.Ohwell,youlearnsomethingeveryday.Thiswastoday'slesson.
ThewayCreativeCommonsoriginallybeganwasyoumadechoices,attributionornonattribution.The
secondchoiceIthinkisstillextant,youcanchoosebetweencommercialandnoncommercial,share
alikeandnotsharealikeandthen,morerecently,derivativeuseornonderivativeuse.
David:Wellsharealikeandderivsarekindofoppositeseachotherbecause
Stephen:Yeah,againthat's,itdependsonyourperspectiveonthesethings,etcetera,etcetera.Butthe
mainpointispeoplecanoptfordifferentlicences.MyowncontentonmywebsiteiswhatIcallopen
content.ItislicensedunderCreativeCommons,attributionbecauseIstilluseversiononebecauseI'm
astickinthemudsharealike,noncommercial.Idon'tcareaboutthederivatives.
Buttheargumentpresentedisthatthisisnotreallyquoteunquote,free,thatfreelicensingwould
be...I'llturnittoyou.
David:Sothisargumentisveryconfusingtomebecauseyouwouldthinkthatthefreestlicencewould
bethelicencewiththeleastrestrictionsontheperson,sosomethinginthepublicdomainwouldbe
freerthansomethingthat'scopyrighted,offeredunderalicence,somethinglicensedCCzero(which
basicallysaysIgiveawayalltherightsI'mpossiblyallowedtogiveawaybylaw,)wouldbeafreer
licencethansomethingelse.
Butthereareanumberofpeopleintheworldwhowillarguewithyouthatattributionsharealike
licenceisactuallythefreestlicencebecausewhatwe,wedon'tcareaboutfreedomoftheuser,the
downstreamuser.Whatwecareaboutisthelongtermfreedomofthecontent.SoifIsayattribution
sharealikethenthatguaranteesthatcontentandallofitsderivativeswillalwaysbeavailableforfree.

Andweshouldprivilegeongoingfreedomofcontentoverthefreedomofthedownstreamusertomake
choicesaboutnowthatI'vemadethisderivative,doIwanttouseadifferentlicence,doIwantto
commercialiseit,doIwanttodothis,doIwanttodothat?
Andthisisn'ttalkedaboutalotinthelicensingdebate(welltherearepeoplethatargueaboutwhich
licenceisthefreestlicencebutwedon'tgettothenuance).Dowecaremoreaboutthefreedomofthe
onesandzerosinhereordowecaremoreaboutthefreedomofpeoplewhoaregoingtomakeuseof
thoseonesandzeros?IguessI'mgivingawaymyownbiasinthewayI'mframingmycomments.But
therearealargegroupofpeoplewhofeellikethesharealikelicenceisthefreestlicencebecauseit
guaranteesthefreedomofthecontentforever.Thereareotherpeoplewhofeellikethefreestlicenceis
theonethatprovidesthemostfreedomtothedownstreamuserofthematerialtodowithitwhatthey
will.
Stephen:Okay,thatwasadirectiontakenthatIwasn'texactlyanticipatingbutthat'scool.FirstIwantto
bracketsomething.Ijustwanttojustmakeaparentheticalremarkabouttheformofanargumenthere.
Gobacktolearningobjectsandthereusedtobe,maybetherestillisinsomecircles,abigdebateabout
whatkindofobjectcouldbealearningobjectandtheargumentwasapictureofaduckcouldn'tbea
learningobjectbecausetherewasnolearninginthe
David:Therewasnoinstructionhappening.
Stephen:Therewasnoinstruction.
David:Happening.
Stephen:Right?
David:Right.
Stephen:And,ofcourse,myposition,whichIarticulatedinthefirsthalf,wasthatwhatmakesita
learningobjectisifitisusedforlearning.That,theideaofhavinglearningintheobjectitselfisa
misconstrualofwhatwemeanbylearning.Nowwecomeback,comebackhere
David:Therearepeoplewhocalltheminstructionalobjects.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Bytheway.
Stephen:Yeah,andtheymaybe,theycanusewhateverdefinitionofinstructiontheywantandcall
theminstructionalobjectsbutagain,whatisthat?Well,isitanobjectthatinstructs,doesitperform
somekindoffunction,isitanobjectthatisusedtoinstruct,youknow,Imeanwerunintothesamesort
ofthing.Youknow,ifyoucallitinstruction
David:...sorry.

Stephen:No,that'sfine,butthiscautionwithterminologyisimportanthere,youknow,Iknow
sometimesitmakesmeseemabitpedantictogetintothat
David:No,becauseourlaterargumentsarealwaysaboutthewords.
Stephen:Theyare.
David:Solet'sdoitatthebeginninginstead.
Stephen:Andthewords,roughlyspeaking,representwaysofseeingtheworldandsowhenI'marguing
aboutthemeaningsofwordsI'marguingaboutwaysofseeingtheworldandonewayofseeingthe
worldistoimbueobjectswithhumancharacteristics.Thechairissitting,right?Thetreeisleaningover
andwantstofalldown.
David:Informationwantstobefree.
Stephen:Informationwantstobefree.Butofcourse,weknowthattheseareobjects.Theyarenot
capableofhavingthesepropertiesbecausetheyarejustnottherightkindofthings.Achairisnotthe
kindofthingthatsits,youknow,sittingissomethingthathumansdo.Ifyoudon'tlikethatexamplethen
informationwantingtobefree.Towantistobeinaparticularcognitivestateandinformation,eventhe
mostcomplexinformationthatwecanimaginejustisn'tcapableofbeinginthatstate.Solearning
objects,thelearningcan'tbeintheobject.Thelearninghastobe,inmymind,intheperson.
David:Iwon'targuethatwithyou.
Stephen:Ah,butyoumighthaveatonepoint.Butnowwecometothepresentdebate,samestructure
ofargument,right?Whereisthefreedom?Okay?Informationwantstobefree.Wellinformationisn't
thesortofthingthatcanwanttobefree.Informationisn'teventhesortofthingthatcanbefreeinany
senseoffreedomthatwehaveinmind.Attheveryleasttheonlysensethatwecanmakeoutofthe
sentenceInformationisfree,orcontentisfree,isthatthepersonwhohascontent,thepersonwho
hascontentisnotchargingmoneyforitbecause,youknow,theideaof,youknow,Ijusthavethis
pictureofcontentroamingfreelyovertheveldt,youknow,like,sotherepresentationofcontentas
beingfreeis,inmymind,misconstrued.
Ithinkthatthedistinctionthatyoudrewisusefulbutincorrectlystated,andthecorrectstatementis
thefreedomof,shallwesay,usersofthecontentorletus,tobemorepreciseagain,thefreedomof
peoplewhodonotyethaveaccesstothatcontent,versusthefreedomofpeoplewhocurrentlydohave
accesstothatcontent(andI'mseparatingbetweenproduceranduser,butthewordsproducerand
userbringinawholemythologythatIdon'twanttobringin).
David:It'sfine.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Idothinkyou'remakingadifferentpointthough.I

Stephen:ButIthinkI'mmakingamoreaccuratepoint.
David:Idisagree.IthinkthatthepeoplethatIknowinthisconversationreallythinkthatcontentis
moreimportantthanpeopleandtheycareaboutthecontentretainingacertainsetoflicencesoverits
lifetimemorethantheycareaboutthepeoplebeingabletomakeawiderrangeofusesofthatcontent.
Anditkindoftroublesanddisturbsmethatitreallyisclearthattheyprivilegethecontents'rightsover
itslifetimeifwecansaycontenthasalifetime,overaperson'srights.
Stephen:Ithinkit'sinterestingthatyoufindthatthelicenceisapropertyofthecontentratherthanthe
propertyofaperson.
David:Youdon'tlicencepeople.
Stephen:Peoplehavelicences.
David:Peopleapplylicencestocontent.Theydon'tapplythemtothemselves.
Stephen:Suretheydo.Ifthelicenceattachedtocontentdidnotapplytopeopleinanywaytheentire
discussionwouldbecompletelymoot.
David:Butitonlyappliestoapersonwhentheyareinteractingwiththecontent.Right,the,the
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Idon'tputtheCreativeCommonsbadgeonmyself,Iputitonmywebpage,right?Iputalicence
onthecontentthattellsyouwhatrightsyouhavewithregardtothecontent,notwhatrightsyouhave
withregardtome.I'mnotlicensingme.Youdon'tlicenceaperson.Youlicenseapieceofcontent.
Stephen:Butaperson,thelicencethatIhavetouseapieceofcontentisnotgrantedtomebythe
content.
David:No,it'sgrantedtoyoubyaperson.
Stephen:Right.Alicenceisanagreement,howeveropenended,betweentwopeople.
David:Right.
Stephen:Withrespecttocontent
David:Inthiscase.
Stephen:butitisnotapropertyofthecontent.
David:It'sapropertyofapersoninstead?Orit'snotapropertyofanything?
Stephen:Ifitistobesaidtobeapropertyitisapropertyofaperson.
David:Idon'tfollowyou.

Stephen:Okay.
David:Iunderstandit'sapersonwhomakesthechoiceofwhichlicencewillbeappliedtothecontent
butattheendofthedaythelicenceisappliedtothecontent,Icansay,what'sthelicenceforyourblog?
Stephen:Icanrespondinoneoftwoways.IcansayitisCreativeCommons,noncommercial,share
alike.
David:InwhichcaseIwouldsaythatit'sapropertyoftheblog,it,theproperty'slicence()
Stephen:ButwhatImeanwhenIsaythatisIallowpeopletousemycontentnoncommercially.
David:Right.
Stephen:ThestatementofthelicenceismeaninglesswithouttheadditionofthephraseIallow.Okay?
David:Agreed.
Stephen:Thatistheessentialcomponentofthelicences,meallowingyoutodowhatever.
David:Right,withthecontent.Notallowingyoutodowhatever.
Stephen:Right.
David:Todowhateverwiththecontent.
Stephen:Withthecontent.
David:Yourlicenceisastatementabouthowpeoplecanusecontent.
Stephen:It'sastatement.Thisismyproperty,thisismystuffandIletyoudowhatever,certainthings
withit.
David:I'mgivingyouthesepermissionswithregardtothestuff.
Stephen:Right,okay.So...
David:Butifthepermissionsarewithregardtothestuff,howcanthosepermissionsnotbeaproperty
ofthestuff?Idon'tknow,I'mnottryingtobeamoron,I'mjust
Stephen:No,no,no,Iunderstand,Iunderstandexactlywhatyou'resaying,it'sdefinitelynotmoronic.
It'strickyandagainanditdoes,itverymuchisyouknow,it'sperspectivekindofthing,youknow,
lookingatitthiswaywecansayOhyeah,itmustbeaproperty.Lookingatitthisway,it'slikeWell
it'snotaproperty,it'ssomethingthatpeoplearedoing.
David:SoifIchoosetoletyoupurchaseaniPodforacertainprice,Imakeanagreementwithyouthat
I'llgrantyoucertainrightsinthisiPodifyoumeetcertainconditions,paymeapriceinthiscase.Then

you'resayingthepriceisn'tapropertyoftheiPod,thepriceisapropertyofyouand,someagreement
thatwemakewitheachother?
Stephen:Let
David:I'mtryingtofindanotherexample.
Stephen:Strictlyspeaking,yes.Imean,becausetheverysameiPodundereversoslightlydifferent
conditionswouldn'thavethatpropertyatall.Youknow,attheverymostit'savery,verycontingent
propertyofaniPodandapropertythatcanexistonlywithrespecttotheinteractionthatwehavewith
ourselves.
David:Agreedthatitonlymakessenseinthecontextoftheinteractionoftwopeople,it'sjust
Stephen:Soletmebeclearerbecausealotoftheconfusionismenotbeingsufficientlyclear.
David:Itmightbemejustbeingthickheaded.
Stephen:No,itisn't,becauseeveryoneelseisinthesamestateofconfusionregardingmyremarks.
That'sasign.It'sasignIseealot.
Becauseapartoftheproblemis,Iusedaverygeneraltermlikeproperty,right?Andofcourse
anythingcanhaveproperties,right?Thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingwhite,right?Andsopropertyis
oneofthosewords,it'sveryopenended,youcanuseit,thiscuphasthepropertyofbeingownedby
me,right?SowhatI'mtryingtogetatwithmyremarksisnotthatthecupispropertyfree.Thatwould
besilly,right?Andit'snoteventhesensethatthecupcannothavepropertiesthatarespecifictomy
owningofthecup.Thatistrue.
ButIhavepropertieswithrespecttothiscupthatthiscupcannothavewithrespecttome.Wecan
createinverseproperties,Iownthiscup,thiscupisownedbyme,right?ButIcan'tgivethiscupthe
samepropertythatIhave.Iownthiscup.IcannotsaythiscupownsmebecauseI'mahuman,I'mthe
sortofthinginthisworldthatcanownthings.Wehavetwothingsthatcanownthings,well,threeif
youcountgovernments.Persons,corporationsandgovernments,right?Idon'tthinkthereisanything
elsethatcanownthings.Cupscan'townthings,right?
Wecometofree.I'mapersonthatcanbefree.Mycupcan'tbefree.Youknow,freedomisn'tthesort
ofpropertyweattachtoacup.
David:Freedomofaction,freedomofspeech
Stephen:Yeah.
David:freedomof
Stephen:Theonlysenseinwhichthewordfreemakessenseiswithrespecttoprice,right?
David:Mmmhmm.

Stephen:Icouldsay,now,andallofasuddenourlogicinverts,right?Thiscuphasnoprice.Thiscupis
free,okay,thatmakessensebutnowIcan'tsayofmeIhavenoprice.I'mnotthesortofthing,atleast
underourcurrentlaws,thankgoodness,Iamnotthesortofthingthatcanhaveaprice.Okay?
Sothere'sadisconnect,afundamentaldisconnectbetweenusingthewordfreetorefertoboththe
personandthecontent.
Itmustmeandifferentthings.Sowecan'tsimplysaythefreedomoftheuserversusthefreedomofthe
content.They'redifferentconcepts.Theymustbedifferentconceptsbecausecontentisn'tthesortof
thingthatcanbefreeinthewayahumancanbefree.
David:SoshallIrestate?
Stephen:Goforit.
David:Soinsteadofsayingthattherearesomepeoplewhoprivilegethefreedomofthecontentlet's
saytherearesomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttheongoinglicensingstatusofthecontentandallits
derivatives.
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay?Andthereareotherpeoplewhocaremoreaboutthefreedomoftheuser,let'ssaythere
aresomepeoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsauserhaswithregardstocontentoranyofits
derivatives.Whataretheyallowedtodowithit?
Stephen:Yousee,Istillwanttorepresentthisasaclashbetweentherightsofthepersonwhohas
ownershipofthecontent...
David:Ofwhichweassumethere'sone.
Stephen:Right.
David:Wellthere's
Stephen:Forthesakeofargument.
David:()Okay.Andthenthere'severybodyelseintheworld.
Stephen:Sure.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Okay.So,thepeoplewhoarguethatthenoncommercialclausepromotesmorefreedomare
thepeoplewhoaremostconcernedwiththerightsofthepeoplewhocurrentlyhavethecontent,who
currentlyownthecontent.
David:Aretherenowyou,nowyoureallyaregoingtothinkI'manidiotaretherepeoplewhoargue
thatlicencesthatuseNCaremorefreethanonesthatdon't?

Stephen:Yes,me.That'swhywe'rehavingadispute.
David:Okay.
Stephen:That's,that's
David:Ireallyamdisconnected.
Stephen:Well,likeIsaid,youknow,itgoesbacktome.It'saquestionofperspective.
David:Okay,sorestatewhatyoujustsaid,peoplewhocare,peoplewhoargueinfavouroftheNC
licence.
Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicence.
David:OhagainsttheNClicence,okay.
Stephen:PeoplewhoargueagainsttheNClicencearepeoplewhocarepredominantlyaboutthe
freedomofthosepeoplewhocurrentlyhaveorownthecontent.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Thecontentprovidersifyouwill,quoteunquote.
David:Andforthesakeofargumentlet'stalkabouttheauthorandeveryoneelseintheworld,justto
keepit,Irealiseit'smorenuancedthanthat,butjusttokeepit
Stephen:It'saterminologicalconventionthatwe'reusing.
David:tokeepitcleanlet'ssaypeoplewhocaremoreabouttherightsoftheauthor.
Stephen:Right,()it'sonlyaconventionbecauseasyouknow,mostofthepeoplewhohavethese
licencesarenotinfacttheactualauthor.Right?
David:Understood.
Stephen:Myperspectiveistheperspectiveofthepersonwhodoesnotyethaveaccesstothatcontent.
David:Everybodyintheworldexcepttheauthor.
Stephen:Everyone
David:Inourcaricature
Stephen:Inourcaricature,everyoneelseintheworldexcepttheauthor.
David:Okay.
Stephen:Okay.Theydonothaveaccesstothecontent.

David:Untiltheauthordecidestolicenseittotheminsomeway.
Stephen:Right.
David:Right.
Stephen:Okay.Now,tothosepeople
David:...whocareabouteveryoneelseintheworldmorethantheauthor...
Stephen:Right.Iftheperson,iftheauthorchargesmoneyforthecontent,thecontentisnotfree.Soa
licencewhichallowstheauthortochargemoneyforthecontentislessfreethanalicencewhichdoes
notallowtheauthortochargemoneyforthecontent(youseewhythewordauthor'ssomisleading
here)?
David:WellIthinkthereallyproblematicwordisthewordallow,becausethere'snolicencethat
disallowstheauthorfromchargingmoneyforthecontent.
Stephen:Yeah,wellagainthat'stheuseofthewordauthor,hasthrownusoff,right?That'swhyIsay
thepersonwhoiscurrentlyinpossessionofthecontent.
David:Yeah,butthere'snolicencethatpreventsthepersonwhoistherightsholder,there'snolicence
thatpreventsthatpersonfromchargingmoney.
Stephen:Agreed.Iunderstandthat.
David:ButIthink,Ithoughtwhatyoujustsaidwasthat...
Stephen:Buttherearelicencesthatpreventpeoplewhohavethecontentfromchargingmoneyfromit,
forit.
David:Youmeaneverybodyelseintheworld,oncetheygetaccesstoit,chargingforit?
Stephen:Right.
David:Okay,yes.
Stephen:Sotheauthorisaverysingularcase,right?
David:Let'ssaytherightsholderinsteadoftheauthor.
Stephen:Let'ssaytherightsholderinsteadoftheauthorbecauseit,youknow...
David:Itcouldbeacorporation.
Stephen:Yeah,becausethereisthismythicalprelicencestatethatcontentmayhave,youknow,and
eventhatisnotagiven,right?Imeanlikewemadeadecisionasasociety,Idon'tknow,twenty,
twentyfive,thirtyyearsagotochangethedefaultfrom,youknow,contentthatcomesintotheworld

doesnothavealicencetocontentthatcomesintotheworlddoeshavealicencebydefault,allrights
reserved,right?Thatwasn'talwaysthecase.But,youknow,Icanimaginesocietiesinwhichyoucannot
sellthecontentunlessgrantedspecialpermission,say,soeventhat'snotoutsidetherealmof
possibility.Youknow,thecaricaturecommunistsocietiesthatsomepeoplerepresent,Ohthere'sno
property,youcan'tsellanything,right?Youknow,wecanpicturethatsoit'snotunimaginable.Butthe
conventionofsocietytodayisthatapersonwhocreatescontent,createsprettymuchanything,cansell
it.
David:Sowhatisthedisagreementbetweenyouandme?Iwouldliketoknow.
Stephen:Allright.Youarguethatwell,I'veseenyouargueitandifIhavetoI'lllookitupeveryone
shouldlicencetheircontentunder,notunderanoncommercialclause.
David:Ihavearguedthatinthepast.
Stephen:Youhavearguedthat.Whydon'tyoustatethatargumentsothatit'saccuratelyrepresented?
David:Yeah,goodidea.AndIwillstate
Stephen:CosI'vebeentryingtofishitandjustwant,let'sbringitout.
David:And,soI'mgoingtoaddsomenuancetoitaswellhopefully.
Stephen:Ilovenuance.
David:Solet'sgobackelevenyearsbecauseyoucanactuallyblameme(wellnotjustme,I'mgoingto
throwsomeoftheblameonEricRaymondhereaswell).
Stephen:Sure.
David:Butthereisahandfulofusyoucanblameforthenoncommercialclause,andit'snotLarryand
it'snot(JamieBoyle?)oranyofthoseotherpeopleatCreativeCommons.Thisallhasitsrootsinthe
(OPAL?)okay?
Stephen:Andthenoncommercialclausewouldhavehadtoofbeeninvented
David:Atsomepoint.
Stephen:iftheyhadn'tofdoneitbecauseyoulookatthesurveys,thebigthingthateveryone's
concernedaboutisyouknow,peopletakingtheirstuffandsellingit.
David:Sothat'spartofthestoryIwanttotell.
Stephen:Right.
David:Soaswestarteddoing...sothere'sactuallyalicencebeforetheOPALinninetyninecalledthe
opencontentlicencewhichwasjusttheGNUchangedaroundtotakeallthesoftwarespecificlanguage
outbutcontentlanguagein.AndIpromotedthatforalittlebitoftimeandtheneventuallybeingan

academicIthoughtIreallywantjournalsandtextbooksandotherthingslikethistousetheselicences.
SoIguessIneedtotalktoapublisheratsomepointtofindoutwhattheirconcernswillbeifthe
journalsevertoadoptanopenlicencelikethisorifatextbookisevergoingto.Bestcasescenario,
(something)everybodyintheworldcanunderstand.Who'sapublisherthatunderstandsopenness
betterthananybodyelse?I'mgoingtotalktoTimO'Reilly.
SoinconversationswithTimandAndy(Orham?)whowasa,andIthinkstillisaneditorthere,andthen
withEricRaymondandsomeotherpeople,therearefourorfiveofusinthisconversation.Tim,ifyou
weregoingtoopenlylicenceabook,whatwouldittakeforyoutobewillingtoputabookunderan
openlicence?OrmaybeitwasAndywhoresponded.Anyway,thequestion'sdirectedatO'ReillyCorp.
Stephen:sure.
David:Youknow,whatwouldittake?Andtheresponsewas,Well,there'salotof,itcostsalotof
moneytofindauthors,tosupporttheminwritingcontent,togetitcopyeditedwell,tolayitout,it
costsalotofmoneytodoallthisupfrontstuff.Andwhatwewouldn'tbewillingtodoiswewouldn'tbe
willingtomakethatbiginvestmentonthefrontendandthenhaveBob'spublishingdowntheroadjust
photocopyourbookandsellittendollarscheaperthanusafterwecomeouttomarketbecausewe
makealltheinvestmentandthenwe'renotabletorecoupanyofourcosts.
Stephen:Right.
David:Sotheopenpublicationlicencehadaclausethatsaid,whichyoucouldchoosetoinvokeornot,
youcannottakethismaterialandpublishitintraditionalprintformforaprofit.Youcantrytosellit
digitally,youcantryanddowhatever,butthiswasalicencetargetedspecificallyatpublishersandwhat
theywantedprotectionfromwasprintundercuttingbythenextguydowntheroadbecausetheyfelt
likeiftheymadealltheinvestmentinthebooktheyshouldhavesomeabilitytotrytorecoupthatcost
andbedefendedfromotherpeopleundercuttingtheminsomeway.
Stephen:Wellletmejuststopthatbecausethat'saveryfunnysortofthingbecauseitallowsthemto
printitoutanddistributeitforfreewhichisasmuchundercuttingasit'spossibletodobutassoonas
theychargeonecentforit,whichislessundercutting,thenthey'reviolatingthelicence.
David:Right,right.
Stephen:It'saninterestinghistoryofit,isn'tit?
David:InfactIthinkyoucouldprobably,youcouldprobablyprintitoutandchargeyourcostfor
printingandbeincompliancewiththelicence,Ijustdon'tthinkyoucouldsellaprintedcopyforaprofit.
Stephen:Soit'sprotectionfromtheotherprofitmakingentities.
David:Right.
Stephen:So

David:Notprotectionfrompeoplethatjustwanttosharewitheachotheror,that'snotwhothey're
tryingtoprotectthemselvesfrom.
Stephen:WhichIthinkisreallysignificant.
David:Yeah,andsomethingthatgotlostinthetranslationfromtheopenpublicationlicencewhichhas
averyspecificaudienceandtargetofbookpublishers(journal?)publishers,whateverintoa,because
theclausesintheOPALwereattribution,derivativesornotandnoncommercialor,youknow,thisprint
forprofitprintrestriction.
Stephen:Soyou'resayingLawrenceLessigdidn'tjustinventallofthisfromscratch?
David:AndneitherdidI,youknow,EricRaymondhelped,theguysatO'Reillyhelped,whatever,but
whenyoutakethatandyougeneraliseitupaleveltosayNowwe'regoingtomakeagenerallicence,
definewhatyoucan'tdo,youcan'tdoanythingcommercial.Youknow,thenitgetstobe,youdon't
understandwhy,it'sconfusing,whatever,IthinkthatclauseinOPALmadealotofsense.There'sa
reasonforit,there'sapopulationthatsaidtheywanteditandtomeaskindofthedriverbehindthe
licenceitwaslook,ifthat'swhatpublisherswant,thatifthere'snot,noneoftheircontent'severgoing
tobecomeopen,thenthat'saconcessionthatweneedtomaketothemsothatatleastpeoplecan
shareforfreeallthestuffthattheyhaveevenifotherpeoplecan'ttrytosellit.
Stephen:Right.
David:I'mnevergoingtobeapublisher,whatever,wasmythinkingatthetime,right?Sowiththatas
background,there'sthenoncommercialclauseintheCreativeCommonslicences[and]thereare
peoplethathaveamoralissuewiththeclause.IwishIcouldgettothepointofhavingamoralissue
withtheclausebutthere'ssomanytechnicalproblemswiththeclausethatIcan'tevengetroundto
havingamoralissuewithitbecausenooneknowswhatitmeansandifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,
howcanIhaveamoralissuewithit,exceptmaybeIhatethingsthatarevague,morally,youknow.
Sotherearepeoplewhomakeanargumentthatsaysifthatlicenceisgoingtopreventmefromselling
ataprofitthenwhenI'mtryingtostartmylittlemicrofranchisebusinessinJo'burgorsomeplace,
sellingcopiesofCreativeCommonsmaterial,whatyou'retellingmeisit'sokayifIlosemoneydoingthat
oryou'retellingmeit'sokayifIjustbreakevendoingthatbutwhatyou'retellingmeisI'mnotallowed
tomakealivingformyselfbyhelpingotherpeoplegetaccesstothismaterial.
Stephen:Funnywayofputtingthat.
David:Butthat'stheargument,right?Iwanttoprintthisstuffout,Iwanttodothisserviceforpeople,I,
ifI'mgoingtospendallmytimedoingthatandI'mnotgoingtobegrowingmygardenordoing
whateverelse,I'dliketoatleastbeabletoeatoffofthatactivity,andyournoncommercialclauseis
morallyreprehensiblebecauseitmeansthatIcan'tmakealivingtryingtohelppeoplegetaccesstothis
material.That'sthemoralityargumentaroundnoncommercial.
Stephen:Okay,canwedealwiththatquicklyfirst,dispensewith?

David:You'rewelcometohaveago,sure.
Stephen:Well,becauseIhearthatonealotandyouknowitmakesmesoundlikethebigmeanguy
who'stryingtopreventpeoplefrommakingagooftheirlivesinSouthAfricaandlike,youknow,which
isn'tmeatall.ButimaginealawthatsaidIcan'tgointoyourappleorchardandtakeyourapplesandgo
ontothestreetandsellthem,alright?
David:Don'twehavethatlaw?
Stephen:Wedo,butthatlawpreventsmefrommakingabusinessofsellingyourapplesforprofit.Now
there'sreasonswhywehavethatlaw,right?Like,foronething,they'reyourapples.
David:Right.
Stephen:And,youknow,oneofthefundamentalprinciplesofpropertylawisthat,youknow,property
iscontinuousuntilvoluntarilydischarged,mostly.Inotherwords,youknow,youcan'tstealother
people'sproperty.Sothat'sfind,we'reallprettycomfortablewiththatlaweventhoughitmeans
somebodycan'tmakealivingsellingyourapples,right?Andnobodysays,Ithink,thatwearelessfree
becausesomeguycan'tcomeandtakeyourapplesandsellthem.Infactwe'dsaytheopposite,weare
morefreebecausewecanhavesecurityinourownpersonandproperty,right?
Sothemoralargumentdoesn'tcarryweighthereinthatthere'sanynumberofthingsyoucan'tdoin
ordertomakealiving.Youknow,wedon'twantpeopletopractisepiracyoffthecoastofSomalia,
right?Althoughfromtheperspectiveofthepirates,we'rejustimpingingontheireffortstomakea
living.SoshouldthepeopleinJohannesburghavethecapacitytomakealivingforthemselves?Sure.
Absolutely.ThatmoralprincipleIgrant.Shouldthatcapacityextendtothesellingofthesethings?No,
thatdoesn'tfollow.Sothemoralityonlycomesintoplayinsofarasitaddressestheneedofapersonto
maketheirownliving,butitdoesn'textendtotheneedofapersontomaketheirownlivinginthisway.
David:Iwillmakeanoteandthenleaveittotheside.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Thatyourargumentsaroundrealpropertymakesenseinthecaseofrealpropertybutinthecase
of,Iwon'tevensaytheotherphrase,inthecaseofdigitalmaterialswhichIcanmakeaperfectcopyof
atnolosstoyou,Ithinkthatargumentbecomesproblematic.
Stephen:Well
David:Idon'tknowthatthat'swhatwewanttospendourtimearguingaboutthough.
Stephen:No.
David:ButIdowanttobringitup.AndIthinktheotherpieceofthisis,yes,therearelawsbydefault
thatsayIcan'twalkinanddowhateverbuthere'samovementofpeoplewhoclaimtobeopenand
claimtowanttoshareandthey'recreatingthesespeciallicencesinordertodothisthingandwellnow

you'reabighypocritebecauseyou'reassociatingyourselfwiththismovementthat'sallaboutopenness
andloveandwhateverandnowyou'reputtingthisparticularrestrictiononme.Mostproblematic
becauseyou'reinviolationofoneofthetenrulesofBruce(Perren's?)definitionofopensource,which
isnondiscriminationagainstgroupsofpersonsorfieldsofendeavouroroneofthesethings,and
becausethoseareasetoftencommandmentsthatweholdinviolate,ifyoudiscriminateagainsta
groupofpeoplewhowanttomakealivingwithaparticularclauseinyourlicence,youhavebroken,you
know,you'renotinconformancewiththeopensourcedefinitionwhichweholdsacredandholyand
thoseprinciplesshouldbeinviolateandyou'reviolatingthemsoyou'reanimmoralperson.That'sthe
kindofthinking.
Stephen:Iknow,Iunderstandthethinking.Idon'tthinkthat,wellit'scertainlynotalineofreasoningI
wouldacceptforavarietyofreasonandthewayyou'representingitIdon'tthinkyouacceptiteither.
David:Yeah,soletmecomebacktoaccuratelystatingmypointofview.SoI'vearguedagainstthenon
commercialclauseinthepast.Idon'tknow,Idon'tthink,althoughIwouldbehappytobeproven
wrong,Idon'tthinkI'veeverarguedagainstitonmoralgrounds.IthinkI'vealwaysarguedagainstiton
technicalgrounds.Ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans
Stephen:Well,youhaveadvancedtheargumentontechnicalgrounds,noquestionaboutthat.
David:Yeah,ifwedon'tknowwhatitmeans,whywouldweadoptthisclause?IfIdon'tknowifyoucan
comebackandsuemeornotorifsomeoneelsecanorwhateveryouknow,iftheauthorofthelicence
can'ttellmewhatthisclausemeans,whichtheycan't,thenwhywillIfeelcomfortabletryingtoprotect
myinformationwiththisinstrumentthatevenitscreatordoesn'tknowhowitfunctions?Allweknowis
thatthere'ssomecommonsenseagreeduponnotionofwhatcommercialmeansthatweshouldall
assumeeveryoneelseisgoingtohavethesamedefinition,whichwedoknowtheydon't,basedonthe
stuffthat'scomingoutofthesurveythatCreativeCommonsisdoing(whatdoesnoncommercialmean
toyou),andit'snotoneunifiedvoicespeakingclearlyaboutwhatcommercialisationmeans.SoI'mjust
goingtotrustthatwehavethesamedefinitionofcommercialandnoncommercialandwhenIlicenseit
toyouthisway,you'regoingtodobasicallywhatIassumedyouwereandifyoudon't,whatrecoursedo
Ihaveifeventhepeoplethatcreatedtheinstrumentcan'ttellmewhatrestrictionI'veactuallyplaced
onmymaterialotherthansomeveryhighlevelcommonsenseykindof?
Stephen:Well,ifyouputthatconstraint,let'saddressthisatacertainmetalevelfirst.
David:Allright.
Stephen:Becauseifyouputthatconstraintonthingsthennobodycandoanything.OrmaybeIshould
usethat,usesomething.Suppose,say,Igiveyouthiscamera,alright?Solet'spretend,andI'mnot
actuallydoingit.
David:No,it'sonvideo,you'regivingmethecamera.
Stephen:Okay,so

David:It'sminenow.
Stephen:let'spretend,okay,thatIsayIamgivingyouthiscamera.Now,doIknowwhatthat
means?Doyouknowwhatthatmeans?
David:Itmeansit'smine.Mytwoyearold,sorry,Ihaveyoungkids.
Stephen:Well,yeah,but
David:It'smine!
Stephen:Butthat'sfine,right?
David:Uhhuh.
Stephen:Nowassoonaswe'vepushedthiswecangetintosomenuance.Forexample,unknowntome,
Ihavegivenyouthecamerawiththeflashmemorystillinitandwithpicturesontheflashmemory.
HaveIgivenyouthosepictures?
David:Givenmeanswhat?
Stephen:Exactly.
David:You'vetransferredthemtomephysically.
Stephen:Yeah,but,but
David:Butyouholdthecopyrightonthemastheirauthor.
Stephen:SomaybeIhaven'tgiventhemtoyou.
David:Right.
Stephen:Soassoonas,yousee,youcan'tjustsay,Wellbecausewedon'tknowwhatitmeanswecan't
doit.Right?Thatargumentdoesn'thold.
David:Iwoulddisagreeinthecontextoflicensing.Imeanthat's
Stephen:Whatismorebasictolicensingthanthetransferofacamerafrompersontoanother?
David:fifteen,twenty,fortypageslongbecausetheycovereverysynonym,everypossibility,every
whateversothatnorightthinkingpersoncanstandinfrontofwhoever,standinfrontofyoulikethis
andsayOh,whenitsaidpromises,covenants,contracts,agreements,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,
blah,blah,blah,whatever,Ididn'trealiseitmeantthisthingthatIsaidIwoulddo.
Stephen:Okay,youknowandIknowthatwhentheysayIdidn'trealise,they'relying,right?Andyou
knowandIknowthatthelicences,thethirty,fortypagesaremechanismstoallowforthiskindoflying
tobecomeinstitutionalised.BecauseyouknowandIknowIgiveyouthecamera,that'saperfectly

straightforwardtransactionthatdoesnotinfactneedfortypages.AndyouknowandIknowthata
definitionofnoncommercial,verysimplelikeyoucan'tmakemoneyoffofitissomethingthatyouandI
canbothunderstandinlessthanaparagraphofdefinition.
David:Idisagree.So
Stephen:Butnotreasonably.
David:No,IbelieveIreasonablydo.Soforexample,Itake
Stephen:I'mtakingmycameraback.See,Ididn'treallygiveittoyou.
David:Youdidn'treallygiveittome.
Stephen:Sure,so
David:Soforexampleyou,ifItookyourcontentfromyourwebsite,reproduceditonmyownwebsite,
ranGoogleadsonthatwebsite
Stephen:Thenyou'remakingmoneyoffit.
David:ButnotifIonlyrunads'tilI'vecoveredmyhostingcostsforthemonthbecausethecostforme
toprovidethatcontenttotheworldismyhostingcostssoIdon'tprofituntilI'vecoveredmycost.So
I'monlygoingtoselladsuntilI'vemadethesevenninetyfiveamonththatIneedtopayformyhosting
andnowIhaven'tprofitedfromyourcontent,allI'vedoneiscovermycosttoprovideittoother
people.HaveIuseditcommerciallynowornot?
Stephen:Sowhenyoumakeyoursevenninetyfiveyou'regoingtotaketheadsoffor
David:Yeah.
Stephen:...you'regoingtotellGooglestoppayingmenow?
David:No,I'mjustgoingto
Stephen:Doesanybodyeveractuallydothat?
David:WhatI'msayingis
Stephen:Becausewe,youknowaswellasIdothat
David:No,no,no.
Stephen:theadsdon'tjustcoverthehostingcost.
David:Alotoftimestheydon'tevencoverthehostingcostbutthisis
Stephen:ThatisGoogle,yeah.

David:Thisisoneofthemainpointsofargumentinthecommunity.AmI,ifIcovermycosts,amI
makingacommercialuseornot?
Stephen:Right.
David:Andit,there'sverylargegroupsoneithersidewhosayYes,ifyou,ifapennycomestoyouasa
resultofyouruseofthatcontentyou'vemadeacommercialuse.Andthere'sanothergroupofpeople
thatsaysLook,ifItakeitdowntoKinkosandtheychargemethirtydollarstoprintitalloutandIpay
themjusttocoverthecostforprintingorwhatever,that'snotacommercialusebecausetheyhaven't
profited.Andthereare,there'saveryreasonable,rightthinkingdisagreementaboutthis.IfIcovermy
cost,isthatacommercialuseornot?IfIprintitoutforyouandcharge,orifIburnRedHattoadvd,
wellRedHat'ssoftware.Anyway,iscoveringmycostacommercialuseornot?Theworld'ssortof
evenlysplitonthatquestionsowhenyoulicenceyourstuffwithNClicenceyouhopethepeoplethat
useitaretheoneswhoagreewithyourviewoftheworldandabouthalfofthemmaybedon't.
Stephen:No.But,no,it'snotthatsimple.See,your,howdoIwanttopresentthis?Thesimplefactthat
somepeoplethinkcoveringyourcostsmakesitacommercialactivitydoesn'tentailthatinfactcovering
yourcostsmakesitacommercialactivity.SoIdon'tneedtodefendtheperspectivethatcertainpeople
havesimplybecausetheyhaveit.Ithinkthatshouldbeclear.
David:ButyouunderstandthatwhentheyseetheNCclauseonyourblog,that'swhatthey'regoingto
understandittomeanandthey'regoingtogocovertheircosts,they'regoingtogogeneraterevenue
fromyourcontentandyou'reokaywiththat?
Stephen:Generate,well,but
David:Notprofit,revenue.
Stephen:Butthethingis,okay,let'sbackup,let'sbackup,okay?
David:Andtheworstpartofmystory'syettocomeso
Stephen:No,no,no,I'mfinebecause,themistakethat'sbeingmadewiththissortofcharacterisationis
thepresumptionthatwecandistinguishbetweencommercialandnoncommercialusingsomeessential
featureoftheactivity,right?It'scommercialbecauseyoudidthis.It'snoncommercialbecauseyoudid
notdothis,right?So,andinthiscasewehavethecasewhereapersonissayingIt'scommercial
becausetheychargedmoney,asopposedtoIt'scommercialbecausetheymademoney.Okay?Buta
commonsenseunderstandingofcommercialisn'tonebasedonthisonefactor.
David:No,therearemanyotherfactorstheydisagreeonaswell.
Stephen:Yeah,but,buttheconceptcommercialisacombinationofalargenumberofpractices,one
ofwhichismakingmoney,anotherofwhichis,say,derivingalivelihoodfrom,anotherofwhichis
settingyourselfupasacertainkindofentity,aka,acompanyoracorporation.DoyouseewhatI

mean?AndIarguethatareasonablepersonwho'snotcaughtuponthisonefactordefinitionof
commercialcanlookatanactivityandsaywhetherornotit'scommercial.
David:Soit'sapornographytest?It'sIknowitwhenIseeitbutit'simpossibletodefineaheadof
time?
Stephen:Exactly.
David:Isthatwhatyou'resaying?
Stephen:Anditisamistaketoattempttodefineitaheadoftime,andevenmoresignificantlythe
attempttodefineitinvariablyleadstoloopholesthatareusedbypeopleattemptingtosubvertthe
intentofthedefinition.Youknow,It'snotreallycommercialbecauseeventhoughI'vesetupa
companyandeventhoughI'mchargingmoney,IhadsuchabadyearIdidn'tmakeadimesoit'snot
commercial.It'sjust,youknow,Ourcompanylostfiftymilliondollarslastyearsoit'snotcommercial.
Right?Wellweknowwhatcommercialiswhenwelookatit.Andwehaveagoodcommonsense
understandingofthedistinctionbetweenaprivatedomainandevenaphilanthropicdomainanda
commercialdomain.Andthesearesufficientlywellunderstoodthatwedon'tneedtoappealtoa
certainnecessaryorsufficientconditiontoestablishthatitisso.
David:Sotwocomments,thebrieferonefirst.Itseemslikeifyoucan'tdefineasetofpermissionsthen
it'soddtotrytoputtheminadocumentwhichspecifiesthepermissionsthatyou'regrantingtoa
personifyoucan'tdefinewhatthepermissionsare.
Stephen:Thepermissionisyoucan'tusethiscommercially.Your,ifImaysay,errorissayingthatmy
conditionisreductivetoanadditionalsetofconditions.Thereisnoreductiontoanothersetof
conditions.Right?Thereisonlyusingitcommerciallyornotusingitcommercially.Andthenyouusethe
testofreasonableness,thewaywedoinlaw,todecide,right?
David:So,so
Stephen:Nobodywouldeversaytheftconsistsofthisandthisandthisandthisaction.Firsthehasto
breakintothestore,thenhehastoactuallypickupthe,youknow,youdon'tdothat.Youlookatthe
totalityofhisactionsandyouask,wasthattheft?
David:SotakeCreativeCommonsitself,theorganisation.TakeMITOpenCourseWare,bothofwhomwe
wouldthinkofasbeingreasonableentities,intelligentpeople,theyevenshareacommonboard
member,etcetera.SoyoucangototheMITopencoursewarewebpageandI'llgetitwrongifIdon't
sopermitmejustafewsecondsYougototheMITopencoursewarewebpageandreadontheirterms
ofusewhatnoncommercialmeansandtheysaynoncommercial,thecommercialversusnon
commercialjudgementhasnothingtodowiththeuserandthenatureoftheuserwhetherit'san
individualorforprofitornonprofitorwhatever,it'sallaboutthenatureoftheuse.Okay,soitis
completelypossibleforIBMtouseMITOpenCourseWarelicensedstuffforinternaltraining,for,well
internaltrainingcoversalotofstuff,orientation,fortrainingtheirownpeoplebecausethey'renotout
theretryingtoprofitfromit.They're,sothey'renotusingitcommercially.

Stephen:Sure.
David:AtCreativeCommons,it'sdefinedbythenatureoftheuse,notthenatureoftheusers.
Stephen:That'sfine.
David:Now,onCreativeCommonswebsiteforaperiodoftime,althoughuntil,onceIpointeditoutit
wasquicklytakendown,therewasaroughdefinition,here'swhatwethinknoncommercialusemeans.
Itsaidithasnothingtodowiththenatureoftheuse,it'sabouttheuser.Soareyouaforprofit
corporation?Yes?There'snopossiblewayyoucanmakeanoncommercialuse.Areyouaneducational
institution,alibrary,whatever,andtherewasthisflowchart.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Andherearetwovery,Ithink,veryreasonablegroupsofpeoplewhohavethemost
fundamental,youcouldn'thaveadisagreementmorecontradictoryaboutthedefinitionofnon
commercialusethantheydid.OnesaidIt'snotaboutX,it'saboutY,andtheothersaidIt'snotabout
Y,it'saboutX.Andthesearetwo,Ithink,veryreasonable,intelligentgroups.SoIdon'tthinkwecan
appealtoacommonsenseunderstandingbecauseevenintelligent,reasonablegroupsthatsharepeople
ontheboardcometotheexactoppositeconclusionaboutwhatnoncommercialmeans.
Stephen:Wellifyou'regoingtostartreducingnoncommercialtothesecomponentparts,you'regoing
togetthatkindofdisagreement,right?Lookatthewayyousetitup.Right,Ijustfinishedsayingthere
arenosubpartstononcommercial,yousaidWelllookatthisexamplewheretherearesubparts,there
wasaproblem.Wellyeah.Right?Becausesomebodymade
David:Reasonablepeoplearethinkinginsubparts.Creativecommonsisthinkingaboutthelicencethat
theyofferinsubparts.MITopencoursewareisthinkingaboutthelicencetheyadoptedinsubparts.
Stephen:Anditis
David:Whetherwewantthemtoornot,eventhepeoplethatcreatedthelicencethinkaboutitinthose
ways.
Stephen:Reasonablepeoplecanthinkaboutthingsinsubpartsbutyoucan'ttakethatreasoningto
becomedefinitiveoftheconceptthatyou'reattemptingtoworkwith,right?Isaytoyou,Youruseof
mystuffwascommercial.Yousay,Wellwhatdoyoumeanitwascommercial?Isay,Welllook,you
didthis,youdidthis,youdidthis.Right?Thatdoesn'tsuddenlyconstituteadefinitionofcommercial.
WhatI'mdoingisdrawingouttheevidencewhichtomesuggeststhatitwascommercial.
So,youknow,everythingwasfine,youknow,ifyoustartsaying,welllookatthenatureofthe
institution,lookatthenatureoftheuse,right?Andpeoplewouldwritethisdown,awellmeaning
personwrotenoncommercialcompanyontheCreativeCommonswebsite.Finesolongashedoes
that,butassoonashesayOhthat'swhatwemeanthat'sdefinitiveofcommercial,that'swherethe

problemcomesin.Andthat'swheretheproblem'salwaysgoingtocomeinwhenyoutrytodefinethese
intosubsetsofnecessaryandsufficientconditions,becausethesearecomplexconcepts.
David:Soyou're,you,atadeeplevel,you'reactuallyhappyandthinkit'sapreferredstatetohavethe
definitionbe,tohavenoncommercialbeundefined?
Stephen:RightandinfactIwouldgofurther.Themoreyoudefineit,themoreyouhavecreatedroom
forabuseofit.Thecrooksdependonyoudefiningitbecauseit'sthecrooksthatarelookingforthese
loopholes,right?
David:Butifyoudon'tdefineityoudon'thaveanyguaranteethatwhenyougotocourtthatanything
willhappen.Youcanpresentanargumentthatyouthinkisreasonabletoyoubutitalldependson
who'ssettingupthereandyoumight
Stephen:Wellifyoudon'thaveamilliondollarlawyeryoudon'thaveanyguaranteebutthatdoesn't
meanhavingamilliondollarlawyerispartofthedefinitionofnoncommercial.Youknow,Imean,there
arenoguaranteeswhenwegotocourt,period.
David:ButIthoughtlicencesweresupposedtobeaboutgivingmeconfidenceandgivingmeguarantees
thatIdohaverightstodocertainthings.
Stephen:Wellthat'spartofthecon.Toputitbluntly,that'spartofthecon,right?It'spartofthis,you
know,it'spartofthelegalisticcon,it'spartofthecommercialcon,right?YouknowandIknowina
commonsensesortofway,whensomebody'stakingyourstuffandusingitcommercially.Weknow,we
seeit,wecanrecogniseit.
David:WellwhenIthinkthey'reusingitcommerciallybuttheymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.
Stephen:Andiftheyare,andthenifthereis,well,theymayhaveaverydifferentdefinition.
David:Andtheymayberightthink',ImightbeCreativeCommons,theymightbeMITOCW,wemight
betworightthinkingpeoplewithverydifferentdefinitionsandIcandisapproveandtheycansayNo,
thewaywereadit,thisis...
Stephen:ButIwouldsuggestthatthat'sverymuchtheminorityofthecasesandIthinkthatthoseare
thesortsofcaseswherethereisagenuinedisagreementthenyousitdownaroundthetableorifthe
stakesarehighenoughinaformalenvironmentlikeacourtroomandyougetabunchofother
reasonablepeople,youtalkaboutit,youthinkaboutitandthen
David:Andthenyougetprecedentandnow...
Stephen:Andyou'vecreatedcommonlawbecauseprecedentguidesbutitdoesnotdefine.
David:Soletmecomeroundtothemostdistastefulpartofmystory...
Stephen:Ohgoody.

David:ofallwhichisthataftermakingalltheargumentsI'vejustmadearoundnoncommercial,Flat
WorldKnowledge13,thetextbookcompanythatIworkwith,usesthenoncommercialclauseontheir
textbooks.
Stephen:Becauseyoureapublisher
David:AfterallthoseargumentsIjustmadeabouthowundefinedandwhateverelseitis,becausethat's
thebestmechanismavailabletous,themostwidelyrecognised,themostwhatever,tosharethisinthe
waywe'retryingtosharethismaterialwiththeworld.There'snotabetterone.There'snotabetterone
that'saswellrecognisedbecausetome(andthisisprobablyaplacewherewealsohavesome
unspokendisagreement)thepointofthelicenceistocommunicateveryquicklytomeinabasically
frictionlesskindofwaywherethere'snoadditionalexchangeneeded,youhaveourpermissiontodo
thesethings.Youdon'tneedtoaskus,youdon'tneedtotalktous,we'vegivenyouallthese
permissionsrighthere.Runawayanddoallthesethingsandthepointof,insteadoftherebeingthirty
openlicenceswithCreativeCommonsandGFDL?andOPALandwhateverelse,thattheusefulthing
abouttheworldstandardisingonadefactosetliketheCreativeCommonsonesisthatnowinsteadof
havingtounderstandthedifferencebetweentheBSDandtheApacheandGPLandwhatever,youknow,
whenyouseeit,it'stheonethateverybodykindofuses,youknowwhatitmeans,youknowwhatrights
youhaveandyoucangoawayandbeconfidentinexercisingthoserights.
SoifFlatWorldhadcreatedsomeboutique,oneoffspeciallicenceforourtextbooks,evenifthe
languagehadalmostmirroredexactlyby(CreativeCommons)NCSA,peoplewouldlookatitandsay
SowhatamIallowedto...?Imean,ifthey'dusedCreativeCommons,IwouldhaveknownwhatIwas
allowedtodobutnowyouknow,youusethisotherthing.
SoIguessItoldthatstoryatthebeginningaboutO'Reillytocomebackround,youknow,toFlatWorld.
Textbookdevelopmentcostsalotofmoneyandtheywanttomakethosetextbooksandtheywantto
share,they'rewillingtosharethemwiththeworldforfreebuttheydon'twanttogetundercutinthe
commercialmarketsotheyusethisnoncommercialclausebecauseasbadasitis,it'sthebestthingwe
haveavailable.
Stephen:Soifyouweresomebody,say,livinginJohannesburg,tryingtogetyourlittlemicropublishing
thingofftheground,reallythethingtodoistousethenoncommerciallicence.
David:Ifthey'retryingtogetifofftheground,ifthey'retryingtosellcopiesofthings?
Stephen:Wellyeah.Becausethat'showtheyprotecttheirmarket.Because,asyousay,isn'tthatwhy
O'Reillywanteditinthefirstplace?
David:Wait,youmeanifthatperson'sproducingtheirowntextbooksthentheyshould,theyshouldput
thenoncommercialclauseonit?

13

http://www.flatworldknowledge.com/

Stephen:Well,ifthatpersonisattemptingtostartabusinesssothattheycansupportthemselves.I'm
nottalkingaboutwhattheydo.
David:ButwhattheydoisimportantbecauseNConlyappliesifwhattheydoisthey'reproducing
content.
Stephen:Okay,so,nevermind.Let's
David:Okay.
Paul:Wejusthaveacoupleofminutesbeforelunch,IthinkifIcanhearJack,aninterestingquestion
seemstobearoundwhetherthenoncommercialisallowingfinancialtransactionsofanykind.AndI
knowfrommyownsituationthatanissuehascomeuparound,doeschargingtuitionforusinganOER
resourceconstitutecommercialuse?Eveninapubliclysubsidisedinstitutionwhereit'snotthatthey're
forprofitinstitutionandIjustwonderifyouwouldperhapswrapupthissegmentaroundsomeofthat.
Stephen:Yeah.Theshortanswerformeisyes.
Paul:Itconstitutescommercialuse?
Stephen:Yeah,nowthat'stheshortanswer.It'sinterestingbecause,youknow,education,whenwe
weretalkingaboutthedefinitionofcommercial,IrememberwhenDavid,youwantedtosetupan
educationalconditionunderCreativeCommons,rememberthat?
David:Waybackintheday,yeah.
Stephen:Yeah,andofcoursethequestionthereiswhatconstituteseducationaluseandthedefault
underUSlawwassomethingalongthelinesofusebyaneducationalinstitution
David:Orapersonaffiliatedwithone.
Stephen:Right,whichmeantthat,okay,it'sfreeforthepeoplewhopaidtuitionbutthepeoplewho
didn'tpaytuition,thereforewerenotpartofaneducationalinstitutioncouldn'tuseit.Whichislikea
nightmarescenario.It'sinstitutionalisingtheexistenceoftheseeducationalinstitutionsthatcharge
tuition.
David:Whichiswhyweabandonedthatoncewegottotheproblem.
Stephen:Originally,itwouldhavebeenniceif,nevermind.BecauseyouknowIneverdidgettheemail
sayingYouwereright,butthat's
David:I'msureyouwererightatsomepoint,Iwilladmit.
Stephen:Butwhenwelookateducationalinstitutions,andofcoursethesituationisverydifferentin
CanadathanintheUS,nonetheless,torepresenttheseinthenormalcourseoftheirbusinessasnon
commercialentitieswouldbeamisrepresentation.Iknowtheyare,quoteunquote,nonprofit,butI
thinkveryclearlytheyareoperatinginacommercialfashionandtheevidencethatthey'reoperatingin

acommercialfashionistheleveloftuitionthattheychargethepeoplewhodaretodreamofaccessing
theselearningresources.
Whatwouldconstituteanoncommercialusebythesesameinstitutionswouldbeifwhenthey
mountedthesecontentsontheirwebsitetheydidnotputinaloginwithyouruniversityIDand
passwordtoaccessthem.Soauniversitycanusematerialsnoncommerciallybyusingitinsuchaway
thatitdoesnotrestrictaccessonlytothosepeoplewhohavepaidtuition.Assoonasyoumakepaying
tuitiontheconditionforaccessingthisstuff,nowyou'reusingitcommercially.You'reusingaccessto
thisstuffasthewayyoumakemoney.Sothat'showIwouldrespondtothat.
David:IwouldsayIdon'tknowwhatIthinkanditdoesn'tmatterwhatIthink.No,itreallydoesn't
becauseI'veheardpeoplearguethatUtahStateUniversitycouldusethingsnoncommercially,witha
noncommerciallicence,buttheUniversityofPhoenixcouldnotbecausethey'reforprofit.Nowwe're
backtoadefinitionaroundthenatureoftheuser.I'veheard,I'veheardeverybodysayeverythingunder
thesun,andtheonlythingthatmattersiswhattherightsholderimaginedintheirmindwhenthey
appliedthenoncommercialclausetotheirmaterialandtheniftheyfindyoudoingsomethingoutside
ofwhattheyimaginednoncommercialmeantthentheysendyouaniceemail,thentheysendyoua
ceaseanddesistorwhateverhappens.
Itdoesn'tmatterwhatIthinkbecausethereisnodefinitionandthere'snowaytoknowaheadoftime
whetherwhatyou'redoingviolatestheimaginedcriteriainthemindofthelicensor.Andsothisiswhy
youhearpeoplesaythingslike,IwouldnevereverusenoncommerciallylicensedcontentbecauseI
can'tprotectmyself.Idon'thavespelledoutformewhatI'mallowedtodoandwhatI'mnot.Idon't
knowwhat'sbeenimaginedinhismindwhenhesaysnoncommercial.SoIcan'tcomply.OrIcan'tbe
surethat,Icantrytocomplyinmycommonsensewaybut,Ithinkonethingthatwedoknowisthat
differentpeoplehavedifferentcommonsenses.Sothere'sawholegroupofpeoplewhowillsayIwill
nevertouchitwithatenfootpole,andifyouwerereally,reallyworriedaboutbeingsuedthat'sthe
onlystanceyoucouldtake.WhatIthinkdoesn'tmatter.It'swhatthepersonwholicenseditthinksand
thatmeansthereisamilliondifferentdefinitions.
Paul:Iwonderifwecouldjusttakelikefifteenminutes,hearanythingfromanybodywho'sbeen
listeningtoyoubothaboutwhatwasconvincingoneitherthisissueorsomeofthepreviousonesthat
they'vebeendiscussing,anythingthattheyfoundparticularlycompellingorconvincing?
[pause]
Stephen:Sowe'vespenttheentiremorningandnobodyhasfoundanythingconvincing?
David:You'reaskingthemtotakesideswhich
Stephen:Pickmyside.
Paul:Maybetheytokindofreflectonwhatthey'rehearingandseewhethertheyagree.Allright,we'll
takeabreakforlunch,we'llpickupagainatonethirty.

Stephen:Onethirty.
David:Andwedowanttocomeroundtoenclosure.Wedidn'tgetthereyet.
Stephen:Yeah,absolutelybecausethat'skey.
David:That'strue.
Stephen:Well,andthewholetuitionthingisrelatedtothat,yeah.
(Applause)
David:Ithinkweshouldapplaudtheendurance.
Stephen:Nokidding,yeah.
David:ImeanIhopeyou'reFacebookingorreadingyouremailordoingsomething.
Stephen:Wedidkidbeforethestartthatweweregoingtodotheentirethinginmonotonejustforfun,
seehowlongyouallendured.
David:Iwasgoingtodomybestprofessor()I'dliketowelcome()

PartThreeInstitutions,Accreditation
andCommercialism
Segment3(1:303:00)
Recordedaudio:Recordedaudio:
http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley3.mp3

Commercialvs.NoncommercialOERProduction
IntrusionofCommercialvaluesintopersonalandnonCommercialspace
OpenEducationandtheLongTermRoleofInstitutions
ModelsforOpenAccreditation:CanTheywork?

Moderator:JeffMiller

Jeff:Werealmostreadytostartthisnextsession,whichmeansIllquicklyintroduceeverybodyasItalk
andgetitoutoftheway.Justincaseanyoneiskeepingtrack,currentlyonGoogleyoucanfindtwelve
million,threehundredthousandpicturesofducks,sowe'remakingsomeprogress,maybewithour
effortswecangetituptotwelvemillionfourhundredthousandandifweputourcollectivemindat
work.
Someone:Wow.
Someoneelse:Well,yeah,lets...
Someone:(Laughs)
Jeff:Sotheresonesuccessoutofthis.So,allright,inthisnextsessionwe'regoingtotalkabout
institutions,accreditationandcommercialismandperhapspickingupalittlebitonwhatweleftoffwith
thismorning,startingwithcommercialversusnoncommercialopeneducationalresourceproduction
andI,Iassumeproductionasopposedtolicensing,theintrusionofcommercialvaluesintothepersonal
andnoncommercialspace,openeducationandthelongtermroleininstitutionsandmodelsforopen
accreditationandthequestion,cantheywork?Sowe'll,we'lltakethisuntilthreefifteen.Thankyou.
Stephen:Well,yeah,me,guesswhowrotemostofthetopicsinthissegment.
(Shortlaugh)

David:Andlet'snotforgetenclosurebeforewe...
Stephen:Yeah,and,andwedidn't,thatwasontheprevioussectionwasn'tit?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:Yeah.Welllet,letmesketch,becauseIthinkitisanimportantargument,soimportantthatit
getsmusicalaccompaniment.
(Shortlaugh)
Stephen:Sorry,Iloveworkingthosein.Overtheyearsitbecomesachallenge,howcreativelycanyou
workin...
David:Incorporatethephoneringing.
Stephen:So,here,letmesetthisup,becausetheargumentisoftenmadethatiftheresourceis
availableinanopenmanner,thatis,youknow,openlyavailable,howeverwedefinethat,thatitdoesn't
matterthatthere'snocommercialversions,becauseeventhoughtherearecommercialversionsofthe
resource,youcanalwaysaccessthenoncommercialversion.Anditseemslikeaprettyappealing
argument,right,andyeah,onthefaceofitweshouldsortofbesuspiciousbecause,youknow,onthe
faceofit,welliftheverysameresourceisavailableforfreewhywouldanyonepayforit?
Okay,goaheadDavid.
David:Convenience.
Stephen:Right.
David:SoI'vepaidforDVDs,LinuxdistributionsIcouldhavedownloadedforfreeifI'dwantedtowait
fourgigabytesworthoftimeforittocomedown,andI'vealsopaidforprintedoutversionsofthree
hundredandfifty,fourhundredpagebooksIdidn'twanttoreadallthatonthescreen,Iwanteda
printedcopyofit.Becauseeventhoughthefreeversionwasavailable...
Oh,andinthecaseofFlatWorld,theopentextbookpublishingcompany,youcan'tbuythecommercial
bookwithoutgoingtothefreebookpagetobuytheprintedbook,andstilloversixtypercentofthe
studentsbuyaprintedbookbecausetheywant,presumably,theconvenienceofholdingitintheirhand
andnothavingtoreadtheentirefreethingonline.SoIthinkconvenienceisonereasonthatpeoplepay
forstuffthatisavailabletothemforfree.
Stephen:AndIthinkyou'reprobablyright,butyouknow,convenienceisoneofthesethingsthat'svery
malleable,andI'mtrying,tryingtothinkcarefullyabouthowIphrasethisbecause,because,well,I'm
justtryingto.
David:Yeah.

Stephen:The,theargumentthatIwouldliketoofferhereis,let'staketheconveniencething,ifyou
haveacommercialresourceandanoncommercialresourceandyou'rethevendorofthecommercial
versionoftheresource,whatyouwanttodoismaximisesales.Ifconvenienceisthethingthat
maximisesyoursales,thenwhatyouwanttodoismaximisetheconvenienceofyourresource,right?
Well,butconvenienceisarelativething,right?Convenienceisnotanabsolute.Yourresourceis
convenientonlywithrespecttotheotherresource.Right,iftheother,ifthefreeresourceexisted...
David:It'scomparative.
Stephen:Yeah,it'scomparative,sothatmeansthattherearetwowaystomakeyourresourcemore
convenient.Onewayistomakeyourresourcemoreconvenient,theotherwayistomakeaccesstothe
openresourcelessconvenient.Itturnsoutthatthelatterisamuchmoreeffectivewaythantheformer,
it'scheaperandeasiertomakeithardtogetthefreeresource,thefreeversionoftheresource,and
thereareallkindsofwaysthatcompaniescandoit,allkindsofwaysthattheyactuallydodoit,andit
waskindoffunnybecauseIwassortofthinking,wealmosthaveananalogyforthatinoursessionhere
today,oursessionisfree,it'sreallyhardtogetto.
(Shortlaugh)
Stephen:Butthat'sjustanaside.WhenyouthinkaboutitIalludedtothisbeforethebreaktheway
openeducationalresourcesbecamelearningobjects,theywereappropriatedbypublishersandturned
intopublications.Youknow,it'sfunny,it's,it'sasimpleconcepttobeginwith,youknow,afreelearning
resource,butthentheygotattachedtoeightysevenorwhateverentriesoflearningobjectmetadata
whichinSCORMareallrequired,theSCORMbeingthemorecommercialsideofthings.
Andthencontentpackagingandthen,youknow,the,theideathatthesethingswouldbe,actuallybe
zipped,soalearningpackageisnolongersimplyvisibleinthebrowseryou,youhavetodownloaditand
thenextractitbeforeyoucanactuallyuseit,and,andzippingitalsocreatesahurdleifyou'recreating
somethingyourselflikea,apieceofsoftwareorsomethingthatwilluseit,it's,particularlyback,you
know,tenyearsago,itwasn'tstraight,sostraightforward,youjustaddanunzipmodule,youactually
hadtodoawholepileofworktogetyoursoftwaretounzipthisstuff.
Andthenlegalrestrictions,thewholefear,uncertainty,doubt,Icanmakeandtherewassomeallusion
tothisbeforethebreakaswellIcanmakeyouropenresourcelessconvenientsimplybythreateninga
lawsuit.Idon'tevenhavetoactuallythreatenalawsuit,allIhavetodoisactuallysuggestthatalaw
suitisapossibilityandthenallofasudden,useoftheopenresourceinvokes,youknow,scenariosof
lawyersandlegalcases,Imightaswelljustpay,sobecausethisisthecase,the,thecommercialisation
oflearningresources,the,theuseofcommercialversionsofagivenresourceactuallypushesustoward
ustowardthatcommercialuseandpushesawayfromtheopenuse,makesitharderandharderto
accesstheopenversionoftheresource.
There's,there'sallkindsofexamples,youknow,andtheO'Reillycaseisagoodone,becauseO'Reilly
knewthisortheO'Reillycompanyknewthis,right,youallowcommercialuseofyourpublications,other
peoplewilltakeadvantageofthatandactuallypushyouasideifthey'rebigger,morepowerful,theycan

justwipeoutthemarketplace.Ialluded,again,beforethebreak,toanotherinstanceofthis,wherethe
publicationofcommercialRubytextbooksmakesitlesslikelythatanyonewillbotherproducinganopen
versionofaRubytextbook.
Ihadabitofanexampleofthisinmyownlife,Icreatedaguidetothelogicalfallaciesandforyears,it
wastheonlyguidetothelogicalfallaciesonline.Theproductionofacommercialguidetothelogical
fallaciesitselfwoulddissuadepeoplefromcreatingopennoncommercialversionsofthatguidetothe
logicalfallacies,sofloodingthemarket.
Andweseethiseventodayinjournalpublicationsandtextbooksand,youknow,andit'sreallyhardto
evengetoffthegroundwithopentextbooksbecauseoftheexistenceandtheprevalenceofthe
commercialmarketplaceintextbooksmakesitseemsofutiletodoso.
TherewasoneotherexampleI'mtryingtothinkofhere,ohyeah,theWikipediaexample,nowI'mjust
waitingforthistohappen,therewasatime,it'snotthecaseanymore,buttherewasatime,anytimeI
wouldsearchonGoogleforagivenWikipediaarticle,I'dgetoneofthesecommercialclonesof
Wikipediaandbasicallywhattheywoulddois,they'd,they'dtakeWikipedia'scontent,whichyou're
allowedtodo,putitonlinewithawholebunchofadsaroundit,andthenusesearchengine
optimisationtodrivepeopletotheircontentratherthantoWikipedia,andforawhilethere,until
GooglechangedandGoogleactuallyhadtointerveneandchangethealgorithmbutuntilthen,that
wasallyoucouldfind,youcouldneverfindtheactualWikipediaarticle,you'dgetthisthingpolluted
withalltheseadvertisementsonit.
Andwhenyouaredrivingrevenuefromyourclonedversion,youcanspendmoneyonsearchengine
optimisation,youcanspendmoneymakingithardertogetthefreelyaccessiblecontent,andyoucan
spendmoneytomakeitprettymuchimpossible(toaccess).
WesometimestalkaboutthecaseofopeneducationalresourcesinAfrica,andyou'veheardthe
argumentandI'veheardtheargumentwherethereareplacesinAfricawhere(thereareplaces
everywherebuttheargumentusuallyaddressesAfrica)internetaccessandindeedevencomputer
accessisveryhardtocomeby,andsoyouneedtoprintthestuffoutand,andcarryitinandthat'show
peoplecangetaccesstoopeneducationalresources.Except,youknow,thisalwaysinvolvesagreat
cost,andthereforeneedstobecommercial.Otherwiseitsimplywouldn'tbedoneatall.Butthething
is,whathappensinthesortofenvironmentwherethere'sacommercialindustryhastakenaholdisthat
theynowhaveanincentivetodissuadegovernmentfrominvestingininternetaccessbecausetheir
marketdependsontherenotbeinginternetaccess,sotheexistenceofacommercialmarket,
particularlywherethecommercialmarketistheonlyaccess,actuallypreventsthedevelopmentofan
openmarket.
Youknow(andIhesitate,butnotverymuch)tostepintotheUShealthcaredebate,butweseethe
samesortofthinghere,wheretheexistence,themereexistenceoftheprivatehealthcareshereisin
itselfbeingusedtocreateanentirecampaignagainstapublicoption.TheUSisjustbeingpresented
withapublicoption,right?Notevenlikewhatwehaveherewhereit'spublichealthcareperiod,buta

publicoptionandthey'resaying,No,youcan'tdothat,andthelinewealwayshearisquoteunquote,
Unfaircompetition.
InBritain,theBritishBroadcastingCorporation,BBC,asyouknow,putsmaterials,learningmaterials
online.There'sahugelobbyfromthepublishersandtheprivatebroadcastersinBritainagainstthat
becauseBBCisofferingunfaircompetitiontotheireducationalmaterials.Soagain,privateindustry
willlobby,willtakesteps,willtakeactionsinordertopreventtheproductionanddistributionofopen
educationalresources.
Sothisis,allofthistogetheriswhatIcalltheenclosureargumentandtheideahereisthat,evenif
openeducationalresources,opencontent,freecontent,exists,ifyouhaveanenvironmentwherethe
commercialalternativetoaccessthesamecontentisinplace,theprovidersofthiscommercialaccess
willattempttoenclosetheopencontent.Andtheyencloseinawidevarietyofways,makingit
essentiallyimpossibletogettothatcontentwithoutpayingforit.
Artworksinmuseums,youknow,somethingpaintedinthe1200s,presumablycopyrighthasexpiredbut
youstillcan'tgetacopyofitwithoutpayingforit,becausealthoughtheartworkispublicdomain,no
photographsareallowedinthemuseum,sonopersonhasthecapacitytoactuallygointhereandgeta
copyofthisthingwithoutbreakingthelaw.Andyouseethesamesortofthingtechnologicallywith
devicessuchastheKindle.
The,theotherpointIwanttomakethoughtooisthatwhenwehavethiskindofsetupwiththe
commercialmarketplaceandtheopencontent,thetendencyistosqueezeoutandsqueezeoutand
squeezeouttheopencontent.LookatthebookstoreI'msurethere'sabookstorearoundhere
somewhereinthemiddleofVancouvergotothebookstore,seehowmanyfreebooksyoucanfindin
thebookstore.Therearenone,allright,andtherearenonenotbecausetheydon'texist,notbecause
theywouldn'texist,butbecausethebookstoreresolutelyrefusestoallowthem.
Andsimilarly,youknow,and,andwhetherornotitisinfactthecasethepotentialisforittobethecase
withmarketplaceslikeiTunes,withmarketplacesliketheKindle,whereshouldtheyachieveanything
likeubiquity,itwillbeimpossibletogetfreecontentonthem.Somepeoplehavebeenpublishingtheir
blogonKindle,Iaskedthem,IsitpossibletopublishyourblogforfreeonKindle?,apparentlynot,
nowthismayormaynotbethecasetoday,whoknows,thingschangesomuch,but,butthatisstillthe
directionwhichthistravels.
ThisiswhywhenIproduceopencontentforlearning,IthinkthatIampromotingmorefreecontentfor
learning,bymakingitnoncommercial,becauseassoonthecommercialsideofitcomesintoplay,as
soonasthere'sacommercialversionofthiscontentwe,westarttheclockonhowlongit'sgoingtobe
beforetheycloseoffaccesstoallthenoncommercialpartofthecontentandwecomebacktothe
originalstartingpoint,wheremypositionisIamthinkingoffreedomasitimpactsthepeoplewhodo
notyethaveaccesstothecontent.
And,youknow,Idon'tcare,frankly,howfreeornonfreethepersonwiththecontentfeels,Idocarea
greatdealabouthowfreeornonfreethepersonwhodoesnothaveaccesstothecontentfeels,

becausethetheprinciplesdon'tmatterthe,thenamingdoesn'tmatter,ifasamatterofpragmaticfact
youcannotaccessthecontentwithouthavingtopay,withouthavingtogothroughawholelotof
contortionsorwhatever,thenitisnotopenandifitisnotopen,you,yourfreedom,yourcapacityto
becomeeducated,tomakesomethingofyourself,tohavethegoodlife,isimpaired,andsothat,that's
whyItaketheattitudethatIdo,andthatinanutshellistheenclosureargument.
David:So,quickresponseandthenweshouldgetontothesupposedtopicofthis.
Stephen:(Laughs)(...)thisisaprettycoretopic.
David:Yeah,yeah,noIthinkthisimportanttoo.IguessontheonehandI'mnotsure,Iseehowit's
easierforanevilperson(let'sjustcharacterisethem)whowantstocomeinandoverwhelmyouropen
contentandmakesurenoonecanfinditandthattheybuytheirproprietaryversionandnottheopen
version,itisslightlyeasierforthemifyouallowcommercialusesofyourworksotheycanjustpickitup
anduseitagainstyou,butiftheyreallyhaveamotivationforpeopletobuyfromtheminsteadofusing
yoursforfree,they'lljustcreatetheirownversionorgolicenseitfromsomeoneelseorfindit
somewhereandcompetewithacopyrighted(content).
Youknow,theRubybooksinthestore,theO'ReillyRubybookwillbemarketedanditwillcompete
againsttheopenRubybooks,eventhough,youknow,some,the,ithadtobecreatedfromscratch,it
wasn'tleveragedfromexistingopencontentbackagainsttheoriginalauthorortherightsholder.
WhenyouthinkaboutthingslikeOpenOfficeversusMicrosoftOfficeortheGimpversusPhotoshop,
andif,ifyoudon'thavetheresourcestodoSEOyourself,tocompetewiththecommercialpublisher
who'sgoingtoinvestinSEOagainstyou,youstilldon'thavetheSEOresourcesevenifthatperson'snot
there,soif,ifyoudon'tknowhowtomakeyourstufffindable,evenifyouproduceitunderanopen
licenseif,ifyou'renotwillingorableorcapableorwhateverof,ofusingSEOonitthatway,it'snot
goingbeeasilyfindable,whetherthere'sacommercialcompetitorornot,Ithink,there'sjustsomuch
stuffoutthere.
IfpeopleknowhowtousetheadvancesearchinGoogleorsomething,youknow,tolookforopenly
licensedthings,thenthey'llfindit,butthosepeoplewillfindstuffevenif(itsenclosed),they'regoingto
findstuffanyway.SoIunderstand,now,whereyou'recomingfromintermsofenclosure,butI'mjust
notsure.IcanseehowusingtheNClicensemakesitalittleharderforthenextguy,becausenowhehas
toproducehisowninsteadofjustreusingyours,butusingtheNClicensedoesn'tpreventthemfrom
buyingsomebodyelse'scontentorlicensingitorproducingtheirownanddoingthesamethingtoyou
anyway,itjustmakesitalittleharder,Ithink,wouldyouagree?
Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Ihavetoagreebecausethatpartofit'sprettyobvious.
David:WellsomethingsIthinkareobviousareapparently(not?).
Stephen:WellImeancouldsomebody,couldacommercialcompany,producearesource,yeah.Right.
Couldacommercialcompanyproducearesourcethatiskindoflikeyours?Well,yeah,right,andsothat
partofit'sprettyobvious.

David:If,ifthemarket'sbigenoughforthemtowanttotakeyourmaterialanddosomethingelsewith
it,ifthey'regoingtogotoallthateffort,becausethere'senoughofamarketthere,Ithinkthey'dalsobe
incentivisedtoproducetheirowntocompete.
Stephen:Well,yeah.Butthere'sabig,bigdifferencebetweenjusttakingwhatyou'vedone,copyingit
andputtingitoutthereandcreatingyourown,as,youknow...
David:Mmmhmm,admittedly.
Stephen:...becauseyouknow,ifwejustlookat,onecompany,oneperson,wellyeahokay,itsnota
reallybigchallengeforthecompany,butifyoulookatthebalance,onecompany,fivehundred
thousandpeople,nowallofasudden,thefivehundredthousandpeopleproducingopenresourcesare
amassingresourcesthatthecompanycan'tmatch.Right?Fivehundred,youknow,nocompanycan
producethatkindofcontent,it'slikeWikipedia.Whatcompanyintheworldcouldpossiblypaypeople
toproducethatmuchcontent?Itsjust,justbeyondthescaleofcomprehensionofanycompany.
Theycancertainlycopyit,it'sjustsomesimplelittlecomputerprogramme,right?Read,write,read,
write,realsimple,youcandoitinoneline,socopyingisreallyeasy,recreatingfromscratch,alot
harder.Oncewegetintothesortofeconomicsofmassproductionofopencontent,it'snotaboutmeas
anindividualfacingoffagainstJoePublisher,whomayormaynotbeevil,wecanactuallyleavetheevil
partofitout,right,it'sjustJoePublisherdoingbusinessaspublishersdobusinessinthetwentyfirst
centuryWesterneconomyandthis,thiswholemarketplacemanipulationispartofnormalbusiness
practice.IsometimesrefertoShaperoandVarian,InformationRules 14,theymapallofthisout.Noneof
theseare,areunusualtactics,illegal,they'renotevenunderhanded,they'reopenlydone,it'sjustthe
wayyoudobusiness.
David:But,butifanopencontentproducerisn'twillingtoengagewiththosethings,whyshouldthey
expecttoshowupabovethecommercialpublisher.
Stephen:Typicallyyouwouldn'texpectthecommercialpublishertoevenhaveaversionofwhatthe
openpersonisdoing,okay,rememberwe,we,wetalkedearlier,rightattheverybeginningofthe
sessionaboutthespecificityoftheresourcethatyoucangetatwithopencontent,right.
David:LikeWhys,mmm.
Stephen:Exactly,right,now,imaginethevariouspeople,howevermanypeoplewhoareoutthereinthe
community,doingtheirowntakeonRuby,right,apublishermightmatchoneortwoofthem,buta
publisherisn'tgoingcreateaversionofeverysingleoneofthem.It'sonlyifthepublishercancopyand
repostthattheycanproduceversionsofalloftheworksthatarecreatedbypeopleinthecommunity,
soyourtypicalwayofreachingthetopofthesearchengineis,thereisnocommercialresourceofthat
typeavailable,andtheonlywaythatthat'sthecaseisifthepublisherfacesthesamesortofbarrierthat
youdid,theactualbarrierofcreatingtheresource.Doesthatmakesense?

14

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David:It,itdoesmakesensebutI'mtryingtothink,soit,itactuallyparallelsalittlebitargumentswe've
beenhavingaboutdraftopentextbooklegislationintheUS,ithasn'tbeenintroducedyet,we'restill
workingonit,butthereisaquestionthereaboutwhichlicensewouldbethebestlicensetousefor,say
thegovernmentwasgoingtocreateacompetitiveprogrammeandawardgrantspeopletocreateopen
textbooksand,andwhat,shouldwerequireaspecificopenlicense?Andwhenwedidthat,thefeeling
wasyes,okay,sowhichopenlicenseshouldwerequirethemtouse,andsomepeopleimmediatelysaid
wehavetodononcommercialandallthisotherstuff,andotherpeoplesaidwellattributionisenough,
ifthepeople'staxmoneypaidforit,itoughttobeavailabletoallthepeopleonthesameterms,it
belongstothemand,eventually,me.
The,thepartofthatargumentthatwasmostinterestingtomeisgoingandlookingatRich
(Bearnecks?),DSPtextbookinConnexions,whichisthe,thecorepieceof,the,theoriginalpieceof
contentinConnexions 15.
Stephen:Right,Connexions,forpeoplewhodon'tknowisRiceUniversity'sConnexions,spelledwithan
X.
David:WithanX,right.So,hereandRichisaNationalScienceFoundationcareerawardwinnerandall
theseother,theseoutstandingelectricalengineer,reallygoodqualitytextbookonDSP,it'sbeenin
Connexionsforlikeeightyearsnowunderthemostliberallicensepossible,justattribution,andinthat
eightyearperiodoftimewiththisreallygreatqualitypieceofcontent,there'sneverbeenapublisher
pickitup,republishitandtrytosellitanywhereandinfactofalltheopenlylicensedtextbooksthat
existintheworld,like,youknowtheLightMatterseriesorwhatever,thathaveliberalopenlicenses
thatwouldallowapublishertoscoopthemupandrepublishthemandtrytoburytheopenversion,it
hasn'thappenedasingletime,andsomeofthemarelikeRich'sbookislikeeightyearsoldnow.
Andsointheargumentaboutwhatwasappropriateinthelicense,westartedaskingthisquestionof,
obviouslythiscouldhappenanditwouldbeveryeconomicalforapublisherjusttoscoopupthat
content,reformatitand,youknow,startsellingitanddoSEOthingstoburythefreeversion,whatever.
Stephen:AnditdidhappenwithWikipedia.
David:Welltheydidn'tburythe,accesstoWikipedia,youknow,Imeanpeoplehavescoopeditupand
triedtoresellaccesstoit.
Stephen:They,theyburyitintheGooglelistings.
David:The,thetextbookpublisherswetalkedtosaid,youknow,the,youknowthecontent'sdone,
thereisafairlysignificantinvestmentintaking,gettingitreformatted,itwouldneedsomeartwork
added,needsomestuffdone,butbecauseithasthatreallyliberallicense,wecouldn'tgetanexclusive
angleonit,andsoit'snoteven,it'snotworthourtime,becauseifitbecamereallypopular,everyother
publisherwouldjustgopickupthattextanddothesamethingandthere,there,there'snorealwayfor
ustocompetewithitbecausethelicenseistooopenonitsowejust,wewouldnevertouchit,it'snot

15

http://cnx.org/

worthinvestingthemoneyin.Andjustas,asactual,youknow,notquiteadecadebutactualyearsof
livedexperienceofpeopleavoidingitandreportingtheiravoidingitforthatreason,itseemslikean
interestingcounterargumenttotheenclosuremodelthatyou'reputtingforth.
Stephen:I,Ithinkmaybeyou'remoretrustingofwhatpublisherssaythanIam,because...
David:WellbutRichcantellyou,there,thereisnocommercially(talkingtogether)versionof...
Stephen:OhIwouldfreelybelievethat,thatpartofitIhavenoproblembelieving,thereisnopublished
versionofthiscourse,right.
David:Youthinkit'snot,ithasn'tbeenpublishedforadifferentreasonthantheonethat's...
Stephen:...it'snot,it'snotsomethingthatwouldbepopularenough,it'snotsomethingthatwouldhave
awideenoughmarket.Publishers...
David:EveryengineeringstudenttakesDSPthough,Imeanasfarastextbooksgo,that...
Stephen:Butnoteveryengineeringstudenttakesthattextbook.
David:Right.
Stephen:So.
David:Butthatdoesn'tstopeachpublisher...
Stephen:...theyalreadyhavetheirowntextbooks,right,so,theydon'tneedthisparticulartextbook,
theyalreadyhavetheirown.Imeanthe,the,thesuggestionthatthepublisherwouldn'tpublishit
becausetheycouldn'thaveexclusivityisnotbelievableonthefaceofitbecauseweknowthat
publisherspublishbookshaveformanyyearsbeeninthepublicdomain,liketheIliad,right,wegoto
theselfsamebookstore,wecanfindacopyoftheIliad,published,probablybyPenguin,right,and...
David:Whatabout,but,butthesebookscostlikefivebucksandit'snotatextbook.
Stephen:Buttheystilldoit.All,allIhavetoshowisthattheydoit.Sopublishersdopublishbooksthat
areinthepublicdomain,thattheydon'thaveexclusivity,sowhenthepublisherssaytheywon'tpublish
bookswheretheydonthaveexclusivity,it'snottrue.
David:Welltheysaytheywon'tbecausethere'stoomuchinvestmentneededtotakeitfromwhereitis,
toturnitintoaqualitytextbook,whereaswiththeIliad,youjustputacoveronitandpublishit.You
don'thavetodoalottoit,yousay,hey,thisistheIliad,youknow,andthenpeoplewillbuyitforfive
bucks.
Stephen:Ourmoderator'stryingtogetourattention.
Jeff:I'dliketotaketheprerogativeinbeingthemoderator,butjustaskforapointofdistinction,we're
talkingalotaboutpublicationsintermsofnowtheIliad,books,monographsandsuchandcouldyou

offerussomedistinctionbetweenpublicationsthatareopeneducationalresources,courses,learning
resourcesandsuchandthekindofissuesthatcomeupintermsofwhatweconsiderpublicationthere
asanimperative,thingsthatlike,textbooks.Itsadifferentthingthanpublishingacourse,andthatthe
publicationofacourseisperhapssimilarordifferentthanthepublicationofamanuscript.Canyou
perhapsnarrowinalittlebit,onthatdistinction?
Stephen:WellnowIthinkthatmightbetheanswertowhywedon'thaveapublicationofthiscourse,
it'scourse,it'snotabook,right,and,andthecontentonConnexions,youknow,isn'teasilydraw
uppable,we'llpretendIdidn'tsaythat...
Jeff:Oh,Ijustwroteitdown.
Stephen:Ohoh,it'son,it'salreadyonTwitter,it'stoolatenow,youknow,cannotbeeasilydraw
uppable,beturnedintoabook.
David:Well,actuallyIthinkthere'sabuttonyoucanpushthatwillgeneratethewholethingasaprint
readyPDFsoIthinkit'sactuallyinthecaseofConnexions,Ithinkit'sveryeasily,infactIthinkit'sas
easilydrawuppable,assumingthepossible,inthecaseofConnexionsbutformostotherplacesit,it's
not,really.
Stephen:Then,youseenow,yousee,justafewminutesagoyousaidthepublishertoldyouthey'dhave
todoallkindsofthings,andnowwehearthethingsthattheyhavetodoispushabutton.
David:Oh,no,no,no,no.
Stephen:Well.
David:Todrawitup,tohaveitinPDFsoyoucanprintoutisabuttonpush,butifyoulookatthat,I
mean,it'snotlaidout,it'sjusttextonthepage,there'snotanydesignworkoranythingputinto
makingitlooklikesomethingthatifyouhadachoicebetweenthatandfourothercommercial
textbookslaidoutinfrontofyou,ifalltheydidwasprintwhatcameoutofConnexionsandjustsetit
there,you'd,you'dflipthroughitlikethisandthenyou'djustpushitasidebecausethere'snocolour,
there'snothis,there'snothat,there'snoneofthecoachingandguidinganddesignthatgoesintowhat
weexpectoutofaqualityresource,it'sjustbeenbundledupandmadeeasyforyoutoprint.There'sa
lotofdesignworkonthe,onthebackendofpublishingsomethingthatlookslikeadecentquality
textbook.
Stephen:And(Pause),howwillI,willIputthis,seeagainit'sthe,you'rehavingitbothwayskindof
thing...
David:WellIliketowhenIcan.(Laughs)
Stephen:Yeah,it'sreally,reallyeasytoprintthisoutbutit'swaytoofarfrombeingatextbook,you
knowwhatImean,it'sjustlike,thelicensethingsaredifficulttorespondtobecausethey'remushy,and
IknowI'mthelastpersontoaccusesomebodyofbeingmushybut...

David:WellwetotallyduckedhisquestionbutIthink...
Stephen:Yeah.
David:...we'restartingtoanswerit.
Stephen:Well,yeah,Imean,Imeanlet,let,let'scometothiswholethingof,ofcoursesor,orevenwhat
you'vejustsaid,youknowlike,liketake,takethosesortsofstatements,andanalysethem,it'sgotto
havethis,it'sgottohavethat,it'sgottohavecolours,it'sgottohavelayout,it'sgotto,whatbeprinted
inTimesNewRoman,whatever,ifit'sacourseit'sgottohavethis,it'sgottohavethat,youknow,even,
youknow,the,theConnexionsstuffhasalotofthisstuffbuiltintotheenginesothatyoucanputinall
theseaspectsofacourse,orifyoucreateacourseonMoodle,youknow,you'vegotyourdiscussion,
andyou'vegotyourresources...
David:Yourstandardsetoftools.
Stephen:Yeah,andthere'sthispresumptionthattheproductionoftheseresourceswillinvolveallof
that,it'syour,Ohit'ssoexpensiveandhardtoproducekindofargument,youknow,youknow,we,
Wewouldn'tevenbotherunlesstherewasenoughofareturnbecauseit'ssohardtodo,youknow
whatImean,I'm,I'mcaricaturingit,italittlebitbutthat'sbecauseIwanttocontrastthat,againwith
mypictureofaduckwhichasitturnsoutisremarkablysimpletoproduce,thereare,howmany?
Jeff:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandone.
Stephen:Twelvemillion,threehundredthousandandonepicturesofaduckavailableontheinternet
and...
David:Thesearetheopenlylicensedones.
Jeff:But,butonlyninemillionpicturesofcows,so,there'sworktobedone.
(Laughter)
Stephen:So,there'scorrespondinglymoreofamarketforpublisherstoproducepicturesofcowsthan
picturesof,nevermind.Now,but,soifyouwanttospecialiseintheproductionofpicturesofducksasa
commercialenterprise,right,merelyproducingapictureofaduckisnotgoingtobesufficientanymore,
right,ithastobehardtodo,itmustbeamallard,itmustbeSeptember,thetwelfth,from,youknow
whatImean,it'slikeyougetmore,andanythingthatisn'toneofthoseisalowerqualityduck.Aswell,
theduckmustbemetataggedanditmustappearintheregistryofduckphotographs,forwhichyou
mustpayand,Icouldgoon,but,butyousortofgetthepicturethatI'mdrawinghere?The,this
presumption,this,thisargumentthatyouneedtodothis,youneedtodothis,youneedtodoallof
thosethingsandthephrasingwasthat,youknow,I'mparaphrasingyou,thatpeoplewouldassociate
withagoodtextbook,alotofthatisinvention,alotofthatisexpectationsthathavebeencreatedfor
us.

David:That,that'sabsolutelytrue,butwhenthestatereviewboardsitsdowntodecidewhich
textbooksthey'regoingtoallowtobeadoptedstatewide,ifyourthingissofaroutinleftfieldthatit
doesn'tevenlooklikewhatwe'reconsidering,thenthechancethatyou'regoingtohaveabigimpacton
alargegroupofpeopleisverysmall.Andthat'sokayifyoudon'twanttohavealargeimpactonthat
particulargroupofpeoplebutifyouwanthighschoolstudentstosave,ifyouwantschoolstosave
money,becausetheyadoptedthisopenresourceinsteadofpayingfortextbooks,thenyouhavetodo
whatneedstobedonesothatthatopenresourcefeelsacceptabletothepeoplethatmakethat
decision.
Stephen:Well,letmeseeifIcan'tfindithere...
David:Andyoudon'thaveto,butifyoudon'tmakethateffortyoujustcan'tcomplainwhentheydon't
adoptyouropencontent.
Stephen:Letmeseehere,I'mjustlookingforthisbecausethiscameup,okay,it'shardtoreadandtalk
atthesametimebut,therewasthe(Longpause)...
David:Wewouldtalkwhileyou'researchingbutIwouldprobablychangethesubject(...).
Stephen:Yeah,sorry,wellthisisoneofthethings,thisisoneofthereasonswhywe'retakingthetime
todothis.
David:Right.No,whatIwouldsayisthatifyougointoGoogleandusetheiradvancedsearchtofind
onlyCreativeCommonslicensedphotosofducks,you'llseethatthefirsttwo,andthreeofthefirstten
arephotographsofHowardtheDuck...
Stephen:(Laughs)
David:...comicbookcoverswhichareclearlycopyrightedandyetthesephotoshavebeenpostedwith
theCreativeCommonslicenseonthemwhichisslightlyproblematic.Anyway.
Stephen:Withthataside,yeah.
David:Justanasideasyousearch...
Stephen:It's,it'sallthedatathatthey'renotallowingcommercialuse,Imeanyouknow.That'sthe
thing,yougetintocommercialuseyougetintoallkindsofliabilitiesandyouknow.ThisisMaysixth 16
actually;thisisthethingthatactuallypromptedmetosaysomeofthisstuff...
David:Areyougoingtoreadmebacktomenow?
Stephen:No,I'mgoingtoreadmebacktoyou,yougotitworse.
David:Okay,good.(Laughs)

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Stephen:Ah,okay,here,I'lljustreadit,it'sfaster,DavidWileyproposestorevamplegislationthat
wouldproduceopentextbooks,nowI'mquoting,Thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefunding
opportunities...rightoffthebatit'sabitofaredflagforme,butthat'sacompletelydifferentissue
thelegislationwouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunities...,becausethere'sthispresumption
thatcompetitionactuallyproducesbetterresultsbut...sorryDave.
David:(Laughs)
Stephen:...wouldcreatecompetitivefundingopportunitiestocreateopentextbooksinanycontent
area.Thesewouldbemultistagegrants(liketheSBIRprogram),withadditionalfundingtiedtothe
successfulcompletionofinitialprojectgoals."
Okay,nowthisismeagain,peoplewouldfile,I'mparaphrasingwhatyousaid,peoplewouldfile
proposalsansweringkeyquestionssuchasthenatureofthebook,thecostofexistingbooks,
management,marketingplans,andaproposedlicensingscheme,disbursementwouldbeincremental
basedonmeetingprojectgoalsand,quoteAcontentcompleteversionoftheopentextbookmustgo
onlinewithalltext,images,andotherfeaturesoftheprintedversionavailabletothepublicforfree,
unrestricted,unfetteredaccess,unquote,okay,nowmeagain,IammostlyinagreementwithWiley's
proposal(Iopposethe(quote)letterofsupportfromareputablepublisherasthiswouldtorpedothe
wholeproject),andwouldsupportasimilarmechanismhereinCanada.
Thinkaboutwhatyou'vejustdonewiththat.Thepublishersaresupposedtowritetheselettersof
supportfortheseopenresources,right?Myfirstquestion:whatincentiveintheworldwoulda
publisherhavefordoingsuchathing?Andtheanswerofcourseisnone,butevenmoretothepoint,
whatthepublisherwilldoisdemandtheproductionofresourceintensive,veryspecific,well,youknow,
like,youknownatureofthebook,costofexistingbooks,marketingplans,management,allofthose
elements,right,the,thepublisherbasically,inacasewhereyoudidn'treallyneedanythingtoofancy,
thepublisherwouldrequirethisCadillacversionofatextbookandthatiswhatwouldcountasquality
andonlythatwouldbeadmissibleforthesestatewidethings,thestatewidedeploymentandofcourse
thosearerequirements.
It'swhatIcallthehighbarrequirement,right?Yousetthebarsohighthatnogenuineproduceroffree
andopencontentcouldevermeetsucharequirement,butit'snotagenuinerequirement.It'sgenuine
inthesensethatthestateactuallyasksforit,butthestate'saskingforitontheadviceofpublishersso
thepublisherisofferingthesortofadvicethatmostpromotesitsownbusiness,so...
David:SoshallI?
Stephen:Yeah,okay.
David:So,Brandon,howmuchmoneyhasNSBLspentthelastfifteenyears?
Brandon:Abouttwohundredmilliondollars.
Stephen:Howmuch?

David:Twohundredmillion.
Stephen:Twohundredmillion.
Brandon:Yeah.
David:US,yeah...
Brandon:Whichvariesovertime.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:Yeah,yeah.SoyoulookatHewlett?,and(Andey?)howmuchhasHewlettinvested(onyour?)?
Sixtyeightorsomething?
Andy:Yeah.
David:Anyway,so,frommyperspective,wehave,sothisisjustoneNSFprogrammethatwe're,results
largelyintheproductionofopeneducationalresources,yeahifHewlettfundinggoingintothingslike
Connexionsandtheotherprojects,thisis,bevery,veryconservative,takethosetwonumbers,round
off,andsaythreehundredmilliondollarsofpublicorphilanthropicmoneyspenttoproducecontent
thatshouldostensiblybeopen.
Stephen:Andyet...
David:Ifyoucomeback,ohit,it's,it'sopen,whatit'snotdoingisifyoulookatelementaryschools,
middleschools,publicschools,universities,it'snotdisplacingcommercialcontent.
Stephen:Ofcoursenot.
David:Andthereforeit'snotsavinganyoneanymoney.Sowhatwetry,andI'mstillnotandsothisis
thelegislationIwastalkingaboutbeforeI'mstillnotsurewhatit'sgoingtolooklikeattheend,whenit
doesgetintroduced,whatwewantedtosaywas,weonlywanttogiveyoufundingthisifIwaskingof
theworld,thisisthewaythegrantpartwouldworkyougooutandyoulookandseehowmany
studentsbuyatextbooklikethisinthecourseoftheyear,what'stheaveragenewcost,what'sthe
averageusedcost,whatdostudentsintheUSinthiscase,spendonthistextbookeveryyear,that'sthe
opportunity,that'sthemoneysavingopportunitythatwehavewithanopentextbookthatcould
displacethat.
SostudentsareblowingfivehundredmillionayearonAlgebraOne,orcalculustextbooksorsomething.
Thatcomparedtoalittlegraduateleveltextonanalysisofcovariants,wherepeoplespendtwohundred
andfiftythousanddollarsayearonthistextbook,sothat'sonemetricofwhichonewewouldwantto
investin.Howmuchmoneycouldwepossiblysavepeople,ifwedothisright,becausethiswouldbe
governmentmoneycomingthrough.
Stephen:Right.Andthispresumesaneducationalsystemotherwiseunaltered.

David:Right,thisiswhatcanwehack,howcanwehacktheexistingsystemnow,asopposedtotryingto
docatastrophicreformofthesystem.Thisisoneplacewherewediffer,you'reacatastrophicreform
guy,I'maverysmallincrementofwhatcanwecanhackintotheexistingsystem...
Stephen:No,you'rea,you'reacatastrophicstatusquoguy.
(Laughter)
David:Oneofthethingswewantedtodo,orthatIwoulddo,ifIwaskingoftheworldIshouldsay,is
thatasyouproducethisopencontent,you'dhavetopartnerwithacommercialpublisherthatknows
howtomarket,knowshowtodistribute,knowshowtosetgoalsonforecastsales,andcancomeback
withareasonableestimatetosayifthisbookturnsouttobeanykindofqualityatall,wecanahundred
thousandunitsofitinthefirstyear,andifit'sfreeonlinetoeverybody,for,wellahundredthousand
unitsmeans,ahundredthousandstudent'sworthoffacultywhoadoptthetextbookastheofficial
textbookfortheirclassbecauseifthefacultymemberdoesn'tadoptit,youhaven'tsavedanybodyany
money.
Stephen:Nowlet's,let'sanalysethis.
David:Now,nowletmefinishandthenyoucananalysethewholething.
Stephen:I'llforget.
David:Allright,goahead.
Stephen:Wellbecause,I'll,I'llsayitverybrieflyandthen,thenyoucancontinue,wewereatthevery
beginningofourtalk,talkingaboutveryspecific,verynicheorientedmaterials,andthatwasthe
strengthofopeneducationalresources,butnowwe'reintomarketingplansandmassproductionand
replacingentirestatesworthoftextbookswiththisonething,twoverydifferentthings.
David:Yeah,andIwouldconsiderthemdifferentbecauseoneistheidealandoneiswhatyoucan
actuallygetdonetomorrow.
Stephen:Exceptthegettingitdone,howmuchmoneyhasbeenspentandthey'restillnotreplacingthe
textbook,soagainthisisthisefficiency,you'regoingreallyfasttonowhere.
David:Wellithasn'treplacedanytextbooksbecauseallthefundingthatwe'vedoneinthepasthas
beentothreefacultymemberswhoknowtheircontentandcanwriteagood,agreat,textbookbut
don'tknowhowtomarket,don'tknowhowtogetitinfrontofotherfaculty,otheruniversities,they
lackallofthebusinessexperience,businessexpertise,businessprocesstogetthattextbookinfrontof
anotherfacultymember,sothatheorshecanadoptit,sothatitdisplacesthetextbookthatprofessorX
iscurrentlyusing.
Sowe'vewastedhundredsofmillionsofdollars,wehaveawebfullofgreatcontentthathasn'tsaved
anybodyanymoney,intermsofformaled,andhere'sanopportunityifyoutookopencontentandyou
broughtthepublisherinasapartnertogooutandsay,hereitisafreelyavailableonlineandit's

inexpensiveinprint,whatever,thirtybucksinsteadofahundredandfiftyorsomething,andyousayin
thefirstyear.
Sooneofthethingswe'vebeencalculatingwithFlatWorldKnowledgeishowmuchdowethinkwe're
goingtosavepeoplethiscomingfall,takingthetextbooksthatwe'vedone,weknowhowmanyofthem
aregoingtobuyaprintedversion,howmanywe'rejustgoingtouseonline,weknowwhatbooksthey
werebuying,howmuchtheycostandwe'reguessingthatwe'regoingtosavestudentsintheUS
betweentwoandtwoandahalfmilliondollars,justthisfallbythefacultyadoptinganopentextbookas
opposedtoadoptingthePearsonthattheyusedtoadopt.
Andsothatmetricofhowmuchmoneycanweactuallysavepeoplegoingtoschoolwhoarepaying
outrageoustuitionsandwhateverelse,thatmetricseemstomelikeoneweshouldcareabout,andif
wecontinuetodoitthewaywe'vedoneitforthelasttenyears,justproducingcontentandthrowingit
onwebsitesandprayingthatsomebodycomesandfindsitandadoptsit,whenthatcommercial
publisher'sputtingreviewcopiesoffourdifferentbooksontheirdesk,it'snotgoingtodisplaceanything
andasfarastheimpactonformaleducation,it'sgoingtocontinuetobezero,so,thisproposalwasone
wayofsaying,howcanweactuallygetopencontenttodisplaceexpensivetextbooksandhaveopen
contentactuallysavestudentsmoney?that's,that'sthegoalofthatproposal.
(HandUp)
Stephen:Yeah,goahead.
Questioner:Isthattosetanexampleoristhattomovethatacrossasforbeforebecauseoneofthe
greatthingsaboutwhatthatdoesissomethingpeoplecanunderstand,andthenschooldistrictscan
actuallypointtoyou,soifyou'vegotanagentofchangeinaschooldistrictsomewhereinMichiganwho
goes,Lookatthedollarfigurethatwe'vegothere,youcanactuallypresentthatdollarfiguretothe
administrationandthenstartdoingotherthings.Thegoalsgrowifyou'redoingtheirfurtherpaths
whereyouare,like,ifyouhaveoneprimarygoalprocessyou'redoing,isitmoreaboutsettingan
exampleofthepossibleorisitforwardingtheactualprojectthatyouhavethere?
David:WellI,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningful,Ithinkit'sonlyameaningfulexampleofwhat'spossibleif
youreallymakethatprojectsucceed.So,ifthe,ifthefirstgoalisn'ttomakethespecificprojectsucceed
thenthereisnodownstreambenefits.
Questioner:I'msorry,Imeangettingthenumbersuptothebillionswhereitwouldneedtobetomake
amassive,widechange,becausethat'swhatwe'retalkingabouthere.
David:Wellit,Ican'tchoosebetweenthesetwochoices(...).
(Laughter)
Questioner:Youdonthaveto.

David:Imeanit,soIdon'tthinkoneprojectcanscaletosolveallthoseproblems.ImeantheUSnow,is
itfivehundredmillion,somebodyhelp,inthenewObamaeducationplan,overthenext...
Questioner:Yeah.
David:...tenyears,fivehundredmillion,overthenexttenyearsforopencourses,openmaterial,
whatever,forhighschoolandcommunitycolleges.
Stephen:Happilythat'sstillabitundefined.
David:Yeah,Imean...
Stephen:Isayhappilybecausetheinitialpresumptionwas,ohit'llbelikecourseware,buthopefully
not.
David:Orliketextbooks.It'shardtosaywhereitsgoing,butatsomepointthoughthey'regoingtohave
todispersethemoney,andbeforethathappensitwillhavetobedefinedandthere'llhavetoberules
forwhogetsit...
Stephen:Becauseeverytimeyouinvolvemoneythat'swhathappens.
David:Right.Sothatanswertoyourquestions:both.Itneedstosucceed,itneedstoreachadecent
numbertosetanexampleforotherstogetinvolvedindoingitbecauseit'sgoingtotakealotofpeople
workingonthatmodeltoreachthescaleyouwant,but,andmaybe,youknowI'mjusttooeasily
pleasedorI'mtooconservativebut,butIthink,kindoffirstitsimportantforFlatWorldtosavetwoand
ahalfmillionbucks...
Questioner:That'sareplicablemodel.
David:...isa,wellit'sareplicablemodel,butIalsothinkthat'sadecentfirstsemesterforacompany.Oh
yeah,ifyouwantedtobeabletosay,not,that'snotthebottomlineofhowmuchmoneythey(get?),
it'showmuchmoneytheysave,it'sadoublebottomlinethat,youknow,thattheycallit,what'sthe
socialgoodthatwedid,inadditiontomakingenoughmoneytokeepthebusinessgoing,youknow,so...
Stephen:But...there'sacertainpointatwhichthat'smoremarketingthanitisreal.
David:More...
Stephen:Because,Imean,Iput(sawstartsinthebackground)mythingonStephensGuidetoLogical
Fallacies17,in1995andsincethen,Idon'tknow,demonstrablytenthousandpeoplehaveusedthat
insteadofatextbook,thereforemyresourcehassaved,youknow,howevermanythousandsormillions
orwhateverofdollars.
David:Don'tyouwishyouhadabetterhandle,don'tyouwishyouactuallyknew,orhadabetter
estimateof?

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Stephen:Nobecauseit'sjustmadeup...
David:How,how,howisitmadeup?
Stephen:...madeup,it'smadeupinthesamewaythat,youknow,the,thesalesfiguresthatCD
companiessaythey'velosttopiratesismadeup.It'smoneytheythinkthattheywouldhavemadehad
thesethingsotherwisenotbeenshared.It'smoneythatwasnotactuallyspentbutthroughsome
calculationtheysayitwouldhavebeen,andit'sthewouldhavebeenpartthatmakesitmadeup.You
see?Alternativescenario,right?FlatWorlddoingwhateveritdoes,savestwoandahalfmilliondollars
overthecourseofayear,right?Isthattheonlywaytoreplacethattextbookcontent?Wellprobably
not,therearemaybeotherwaysthatsaveevenmore,andmaybehadoneofthoseotherwayscome
intoplaceinsteadofFlatWorld,that'swhatactuallywouldhavebeenspentthatyear,right?Andso,if
weapplyourhypotheticalthatway,theuseofFlatWorldactuallycostmoney.
David:Right,butthat'sahypotheticalandthisissomethingthat'sactuallyhappening.
Stephen:Butnotnextyear.
David:Thisfall.
Stephen:Thisfall,it'sinthefuture,ithasn'thappenedyet.
David:Thefacultymembershavealreadyadoptedthetextbooks,Imeanthat,thatallhappenedin
MarchandApril.
Stephen:Yeah,butit'safutureevent,itcouldhavecomeoutdifferently.
Jeff:There'sanotherquestion...
(Laughter)
Questioner:...roleofinstitutionsandmodelsforaccreditation,cantheywork,soperhapsafteryour
questionyoucangoontothoselasttwotopics?
Stephen:Iprobablydon'twanttothrowoffaccreditationuntillaterbut...
Questioner:Yeah,sure.
Stephen:...I,Ithinkthere,thereisanimportantpointhereandthatI'mreallystrugglingtobringout,but
Iexpectsuccessatsomepoint(Shortlaugh)but...
David:Ireallyamtryingtounderstand.
Stephen:Yeah,no,that'sfairenough.
Questioner:Idowanttoreallypointitout,commercialentities,becausewe'rekeenonwhatyou're
doing,becauseforourproject,formyuniversity'sprojectthatwassomething,thatwasariskand...I
guesswhatI'mreallycuriousaboutisforcourseslikeaspecialistartanddesign,mediaandperformance

institution,sowedon'treallyhaveanyuseoftraditionaltextbookskindofinthewaythat,thatyou
woulddiscuss.Wouldyouuseamarker?I'mjustwonderinghowto,inadifferentcontext,whatyou
mightthinkconcernsforothermediais?Imeanforus,whatwe,whatwedoiscreatefullunitsof
courses,notanentirecoursebutfullunitsandmakethemfreelyavailable,soit'sthelectures,it'sthe
videos,it'sabasisforstudentstoputuptheirworkandtocollaboratewitheachotherand....
David:And,andwhat'stheriskthatyou'reperceiving?Imjustwonderingifthere'saparallelriskto,
again,possibly...
Stephen:Yeah,letme.I'mnotgoingsayrephrasebecauseI'mnotrephrasingwhatyousaid,butI'm
interpretingitinaway.Let'stakethecoursethatGeorgeandIdidlastfall18,andwhatGeorgeandIdid
lastfallisinsteadofdoingitthenormalcoursekindofwayweopeneditupandsaid,Anybodywho
wantstocanparticipateandshareallthecontentandalltheresources,veryOERthatsortofmodel,
butalsothe,thequoteunquoteinstruction,andwhathappened,andthisisreallyimportant,isthat
thenatureoftheinstructionchangesandsoalso(asanaside)thenatureoftheassessmentchanges,
butkey,thenatureoftheinstructionchanges,becauseit'snolongeracaseofaninstructortryingto
leadacohortthroughabodyofmaterials.It'smoreGeorgeandIsortof,Idon'tevenwanttousethe
wordorchestratingbecausethat'stooorganisedaword,butwealmostbecameliketwoamongthis
massofpeopleworkingwithalloftheseresourcesandworkingwithallofthisconversationandthere,
thereisn'tevenacentretothecourse,it's,it'sdistributedacrossdifferentapplications,different
platforms,differentlanguages(becausewehaveastrongSpanishlanguagecomponenttothecourse)
andsowhathappenedhereis,theverymodelofyourtypicaluniversitycoursebreaksdown,nowthisis
thesortofthingthatworksbestandpossiblyonlywithoutthecoursetextbook,withoutthestandard
curriculum,withoutthetrappingsofthemodelthatisbeingpreservedthroughthetwoandahalf
milliondollarsavings,right.
David:SoyouandGeorgedidn'tsetoutasetofreadingsandasuggestedorderinwhichpeoplehadto
readthosereadings?
Stephen:Wesetout,wellIwanttobecarefulherebecauseinasensewedid,wesetoutsomereadings,
wecertainlydidn'tsaythatpeopleshouldreadthereadings,wesuggestedinfactthatpeopleshould
pickandchoosefromamongthematerialsthatwesuggested,orthatotherpeoplesuggested,there
wasnosenseofabodyofcoursecontentthattheywereexpectedtomaster.Infactwesaidvery
specifically,Isaid,andIthinkGeorgeechoed(maybenotasdirectly),selectthematerialsthatare
relevanttoyou,toyourowncircumstance.Weexpectpeopletoeachhavereaddifferentthings,
becausethere'ssomuchstuff,right?Andwhathappensis,peoplereaddifferentthingsandthenwhen
theyinteractwitheachother,that'swherethenewknowledgeiscreated,wherethelearninghappens
becauseeachpersoncomesintotheconversationwithadifferentperspective,adifferentpointofview,
sotherearereadings,thereisanorder,butthereadingsareentirelyoptionalandtheorderismostly
optionalaswell,doesthatmakesense?So,the,theidea...
David:Soundsalotlike(Long?)actually,there'salotofstructurebuteverything'soptional.

18

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Stephen:LikeLong?
David:Lotsofstructure,everythingoptional.
Stephen:Yeah,exceptthestructureexistedonlybecausewehadtoputitonawebpage.Imean,the
structureisanaccidentalfeatureofthepresentationandnotanessentialfeatureofwhatwewere
tryingtocreate.Whatweweretryingtocreateisthisnetwork,andtheprocess,allweweredoing,was
attemptingtoconnect,andmostlywewereattemptingtoconnectnotbyinstructingpeopleonhowto
connectbutbydoingitourselvesinanenvironmentwhereotherpeoplecouldtakepartandshare.
David:Somodellingitratherthantalkingaboutit.
Stephen:That'sright.Okay,now,youmaythinkthat'sagoodwayoflearning,youmaynotthinkit'sa
goodwayoflearning,theremaybeotherbetterwaysoflearningthatcomealong,that'sfine,thepoint
is,isthatthingsthatacttopreservetheexistingstructureoflearningmakethingsliketheConnectivist
courselesslikelyand...
David:D'...
Stephen:...that,that'sreallybadlyargued.(Shortlaugh)Idon'twanttosayitlikethatbecausethat'snot
whatImeanbecausethenI'minthepositionofhavingtodefendthislittlecausalargument,right?I
don'twanttodefendthislittlecausalargumentbecauseit'snotagoodcausalargument,but,butIdo
wanttosuggestthat,when,whenyoudothingsthathelpentrenchtheexistingmodeloflearningwith
existingcoursesandexistingresourcesliketextbooks,likecourses,youknow,allthesecoursepackages,
andsay,thisisthebarwemustsetforlearning,andthisisthethingthatpeoplemustdoinorderto
qualifyforfundingor,or,orevenqualifyforbeingallowedtodoit(whichisreallywhatitis,because,
youknow,youpulloffwhatGeorgeandIdidwithverylittlefunding)youknowyoulockyourselvesinto
thismodelwhichreallyisaveryexpensivewayofdoingit,thismodelofhavingaclass,ofmarching
throughatextbook,ofhavingateacher,ofhavingassignmentsthattheymark,isaveryexpensiveway,
thatmodelisexpensive,andsavingtwoandahalfmilliondollarsoffofafivehundredmilliondollar
modeldoesn'treallycutit.
David:OhIagree,that's...
Stephen:Youknow...
David:...Imeanthat'sthefirstsemesteroutofthechutewithonlysixtextbooksand...
Stephen:Yeah,butnonetheless,preservingthatmodelisn'tgoingtosolvetheproblemthatI'mtryingto
address,andtheproblemthatI'mtryingtoaddressisaccesstoeducationforallthosepeoplewhodon't
haveaccesstoityet,notsavingmoneyfor,forlargecommercialinstitutionsthatareofferingitto
peoplewhoareabletopaytuition.
David:Ohtheinstitutionsdon'tsavemoney,the,thestudentsdo.

Stephen:Buttheystill,youknow,theyonlysavemoneyifthey'reinthisprogrammeandpayingtuition,
so,youknow,youhavetoberichenoughtosavethatkindofmoney.
David:YouknowIwonderifohand,sorry,Iacknowledgeandunderstandthe,thehypothetical
enclosurerisksthatStephenwastalkingabout,Ihaven'tseenthemplayoutineightorsoyearsof
workingwithlicensedstuff,Iwouldn'tworryaboutitalotbutStephenwillworryaboutitalotsoyou
getnoconclusiveanswerfromthetwoofus.
Stephen:Butyou'reworkingfromwithintheenclosure,ofcourseyou'renotgoingtoseeit.
David:Right,that'swhatIwasjustabouttosay,insomewaysit'slike,and,andmakingthisargument
doesn'tbodewellforme,butifyouthinkaboutthereformationofthechurchacoupleofcenturiesago,
youhadpeopleinsidethechurchworkingtoreformitandthenyouhadpeoplethatjustpunchedout
andsaid,Forgetit,we'rejustgoingtogodoourownthing,andyoueventually,youknow,something,
nowthereis,Idon'tknowifyou'dcallitamarket,maybe,maybeecologyisabetterword,butthere's
somepeoplethataremembersofthischurchandsomethatarewiththatchurch,whatever.
ButsomethingthatIthinkthisdialogueishelpingmeunderstandisI,IthinkI'msomewherebetweenan
informal,internalreformerandhackeroftheexistingsystemwehave.Andyouremorelikethe
PresbyteriansortheLutheransortheMethodists,I'mjustgoingpunchoutandgostartsomething
better,kindofapproach,soisthatafaircharacterisation?
Stephen:Ithinkit'safaircharacterisationexceptthatIdon'twanttojustsetupanotherchurch,you
know.ImeanIthinkthat'sreallyimportant,so,Imeanthat'spartofthereasonthis,ofthereformation
argumentis,youknow,allwegotoutofitwasmorechurchesand...
Jeff:YouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou.
Stephen:AndyouneedaGermanprincetoprotectyou,youknow,andthat,that'snotreally,you
know...
It'smorelikereading,therewasatimewhenonlypeopleinthechurchwereabletoreadand,and
maybeafewselectedfewnoblesprovidedtheyhadallegiance,andreadingwasthesecretgatewayto
theknowledgeoftheothersandallofthat,andifyou'reanaverageperson,yousimplydidn'treadand
probablythebigchangethatLutherbroughttothechurchwas,wasnotLutheranism,butthe
movementofthelanguageofthechurchfromLatintoGerman,andeventuallytoEnglishaswell,the
movementand,andthecapacityforpeopletobeabletoreadtheGospelsforthemselves.Itwasalways
thecasethattheydependedontheprieststoreadtheGospels,right?Andyouhadtohavethis
intercession.
David:Wellandifyouthinktwentyninethousanddollarsforoneninetyninecentsongisaharsh
penalty...
Stephen:Yeah,yeah.(Laughs)

David:Okay,thisisatopicIknowalittlebitabout.SothereweretimeswhenjustpossessinganEnglish
copyoftheScriptures...
Stephen:Absolutely.
David:...wouldnotonlycostyouyourlife,life,butyou'dalwaysforfeitland,goodsandlifefromyour
heirs,soyou...
Stephen:Yeah,youloseeverything.
David:...havetheEnglishScriptures,youdie,yourfamilydies,werepothefarm,allthecattle,
everything.ImeanyouthinktheDMCAisharsh.
(Laughter)
Stephen:So...
David:It'sgotnothingontheearlychurch.
Stephen:Soyoucanseewhyworkingforwithreformwithinthechurchontheonehandpeoplewould
seetheadvantagesofthat,butontheotherhand,therewasgoingtobeacertainlimittowhatyou
couldaccomplish,youknow,andeventoday,Imeanthere,it'sstillLatin,wellnonotreallyanymoreis
it,but,butwasupuntilnottoolongago...
David:Itdependsonwhereyouattend.
Stephen:Yeah,that'sright,.AndIthinklearningisthatwaynow.Comparelearningnowtoliteracyinthe
past.Nowyouneedtogotothechurch,akatheuniversity,andhaveyourlearningmediatedforyou,
andwhetherthatmediationtakestheformofacoursepackageoratextbookoraprofessor'slecture,
nonethelessthemodelstillisthat,andtherereallyisn'tverymuchtinkeringyoucandowiththe
mediation,maybeyoucanmakethemediationalittlebitmoreefficient,maybeyoucanmakethe
mediationalittlemoreresponsivetotheneedsofthepeasants,butit'sstillmediation,andwhatwe
needistofindawayofmovingbeyondthatbecausemediationisaveryexpensivewayofenablinga
populationtolearnandithasthedangerofbeingusedinthesamewaythatthePopewasused,not
simplyto,tospreadtruthbutalsotospreadpoliticsandpropagandaandtherest.Ithasthepotentialof
beingabused.
David:Sure,everythinghasthepotentialofbeingabused.
Stephen:Youknow,no,notsomuch,but...
David:Isn't,isn'tonlinecontentjustanasynchronistmediation?
Stephen:Wellnow...

David:BecausesomebodyelseisgoingtoproducecontentandI'mgoingtositdownandI'mgoingto
usethatcontent,it'snotfreeofpoliticsandbias,amongstotherthingssuddenlyjustbecauseit's
asynchronous.
Stephen:Butnowwearein,nowweareintoamuchmoreinterestingdiscussion,right?Becauseifan
OERissomethingthatwaspaidforthroughhundredsofmillionsofdollarsofgovernmentorfoundation
moneyandwascreatedbysomeuniversityprofessorinhisofficeaccordingtosomesetofstandards,
thenyes,it'sexactlythat,it'saunitofmediation,ifontheotherhandanOERisaresourcecreatedby
andformembersofacommunity...
David:Itdoesn'tmediatethelearningprocess?
Stephen:Notinthesameway.Imean...
David:How,how'sthat?
Stephen:Not,wellImeannotremotely,Imeanit'slikeyou'resaying,tojustdrawaparallelofyour
argument,I'mcomplainingthattheGospelshavebeenmediatedbecausethey'recomingtomethrough
thelecturesofpriestsorthingslikethat,andI'msaying,reallyweshouldbeabletoreaditforourselves,
inourownlanguageandyou'resaying,Wellisn'tlanguagekindoflikeamediationtoo?,andwell,
yeah,itis...
David:NoI'msayingit's...
Stephen:...butit'sanorderofmagnitudedifferent.
David:I'msayingthattheScripturesarethemediationandwhetheryoutalktoapriestaboutitor
whetheryoumeetwithbunchofotherpeoplelikeyouinBiblestudyandtalkaboutit,that,thatcontent
ismediation,itwaswrittenbysomebodyatsomepoint,yousitdown,you'restudyingit,you'reeither
hearingitinterpretedbyanexpertoryou'retalkingwithagroupofyourpeersaboutit,butthefocusof
thatwholethingisthepieceofcontent,andwhetherit'sproducedbyaprofessororbyJoBobin
wherever,there'sthispieceofcontentnowsittingonmyscreenthatI'mlookingatandI'mhavinga
discussionwithotherpeopleaboutthatcontent'samediating...
Stephen:Butit'saverydifferentthingforyouandyourcommunitytobesittingtheremessingaround
withthelanguageoftheScriptureitself,andforyoutobesittingthere,takingsomeguy'swordforit
thatthisiswhattheScripturesays,twoverydifferentthings,andthesameistrueforopeneducational
resources,ifmembersofthecommunityarecreatingthese,usingthese,sharingthese,doingwhatever
withthese,that'sverydifferent,tohavedirecthandsonaccesstothisknowledge,tothisdomain,very
differentthandependingonsometrustedexpert,professororwhatevertobesaying,Thisiswhat
knowledgeinthatdomainis.
David:Butistheonlydifferencetherewhetheryoutaketheperson'swordforitornot?Oristhatthe
primarydifference?

Stephen:If,ifthepersonistrustworthy,right?Well,goodquestion.Iwasgoingsay,ifthepersonis
trustworthythenreallyitboilsdowntothesamething.ButIdon'tthinkso,because,Imean,Ithink,the
provenanceoftruthmattersasmuchasthecontent,youknow,beingabletoseeforyourselfisworth
morethanbeingtoldbyatrustedpersonthathesawsuchandsuch...
David:Right,but,but(talkingtogether)...
Stephen:YoumaybelievethatPinbothcasesbutthere'ssomethingdifferent.Seeingitforyourself,
evenifyoucometothesamebelief,hasmoreofameaninginyourlifethancomingtothatbelief
throughthemediationofsomeotherperson.
David:Butifyou'vecometothatexperienceoryou'vecometothatconclusionoryou'vedrawnthat
meaningfromapieceofcontent,thenwhetherthatcontentwascreatedbyaprofessionalorbyapeer,
thatpieceofcontenthasstillhasstillplayedthatcriticalroleinyourmakingofthatmeaning.
Stephen:Yeah,butit'sthedifferencebetweenonevoiceandathousandvoices,youknow,likethe,the
professorwillusewordsandyourfriendswillusewordsandthosewordsareinbothcasesmediations
ofwhateverisoutthere,butyourprofessorhasonepointofviewandyourfriendshaveathousand
pointsofviewandevenifthetwomechanismsresultinthesamebelief,themechanismthatresulted
fromathousandeyes,athousandvoicesisgoingtobemorereliable,goingtomeanmorethanthe
mechanismthatreliesonsetofeyesandonevoiceand,anditneedsmore,notsimplybecauseyou
thinkit'smorelikelytobetrue,whatevertheresultingfactis,right,you,youcanbelievethatPjustas
stronglyinbothcases,butinthecaseofthecommunity,youareapartoftheproductionofthe
knowledge,thatP,andinthecaseoftheprofessor,youarenotapartoftheproductionofthat
knowledge,andconsequently,yourrelationtothatknowledgeisverydifferent,thisknowledge,where
youarepartoftheproduction,alsoservestoempoweryou,thisknowledgemakesyouapassive
recipient.
David:Nowtherearesomeassumptionsthereaboutthekindofinteractionsyouhavewith...
Stephen:Absolutely.Thereareassumptions.Butwe'rebeingwrappedup.
Jeff:Itstimewewrappedup,wedidnotgettoaccreditationandtranssubstantiationbut...
(Laughter)
Jeff:Weneedtopickupatthreefifteenso,takeabreak,getsomeairandwe'llcontinuethiswonderful
conversation,thankyou,thanks.
David:WellIdidn'tthinkIwasnearthat.
Stephen:Therearelotsofthingswedidn't...
(Laughter)

PartFourWhat'sNext?WhyBother?
Segment4(3:154:45)
Recordedaudio:http://www.downes.ca/files/audio/downeswiley4.mp3

RatesofOERReuse:IsAlltheTroubleWorthIt?
IsitEverOKnottobeOpen?
WhatNeedstoHappenNextfor/to/withOpenEducation?

Moderator:DaveCormier

DaveCormier:Welcometosessionnumberfour.Imthemoderatorforsessionnumberfour,myname
isDaveCormier.Inormallygetchosenforthesesituationswhensomebodywantssomeoneto
aggravatesomeoneelse.Iamuniversallyknownasthatkindofaggravatinginfluence.ButImgoingto
try,givenagreementfromthefellowsoverhere,thataskforthirtyminutesofthenexthourandabit,to
tryandaggravatethem,andaskaspecialkindofquestion.
IthinkitwasonSaturdayIgotthepiecesforthispartanditwasWhataboutOERreuse?AndIthink
thatsmostlyamathematicalquestion,wekindofprettymuchknowtheanswertothatquestion.
Wheredoesitgofromhereandwhydoesitmatter?Ithoughtitmightbeinterestingtohaveacouple
offiveminutegoesatthreesuccessivequestions.ThefirstoneisLookintothefuture,andimaginethe
mostdystopicsituationpossibleforOER,whatareyouafraidofhappening,ifthisthinggoesthewrong
way?
WhenIthinkaboutthat,IsortofcontextualisethatquestionbyWhatsgoingonintheUKrightnowto
mymind?WhichistheBritishgovernmenthasstartedtotalkaboutputtingoutOERinasenseof
raisingEnglandsstatus.AndtheresaconnectiontherethatIfindpotentiallydistracting.Andcertainly
theresacontrollinginfluencetherethatmaybeoneofthosepotentialdystopicfutures.
ThesecondquestionisWhatdoyouexpecttohappen?andthethirdoneisImaginethewonderful
future,withtheperfectthingthatwillneverreallyhappen,butyoudreallyliketohavehappen,would
actuallyhappen.Daviddidtouchonthatalittletinybit,butIwonderifwecouldexplorethatquestion
alittlebitfurther.Becausethereareacoupleofothertopicsonthetable,Imnotaskingfortheentire
hour,fifteenminutes,butratherfortwenty,twentytwo,twentythreeminutes.Three,fourfiveminute
piecesfromeachofyou.Andthenyouguyscangetbackandwrapstuffupattheend.Howdoesthat
sound?Thatsoundlikefun?

David:Soundslikeyouredictatingthetermsofourconversation.(smiling)
Dave:Imjustsuggestingapossiblealternative,inafriendlyopenway.
David:No,soundsgood.
David:Okay.Dystopicfirst.
Stephen:Sogoahead.
David:Imtryingtodecidewhataretheawful,awfulfuturescenarios.Sooneawfulfuturescenario
wouldbeIthinkitwouldbeanawfulfuturescenarioifOER,ifsomeversionofOER,saythisOERthat
ObamaisfundingnowintheUS,becamesopopularthatitbecamethedefactokindofstandards.
Theresonlyonealgebracoursethatanyonereallyevertook.Andeventhoughitwasopen,youdidnt
messwithitbecauseitstheonethatwasdesignedbytheexperts.OERsomehowturnedintosomekind
ofanationalcurriculum.ThatsadisasterfutureforusIthink.
Isupposeits,Iusedthewordecologyearlierintheday,inthesamewaythatIthinkthatwehaveLinux
andOSXandWindowsinanecologyofcompletelyopen,completelyclosed,someclosedstuffbuilton
someotherstuffthatwasopen,kindofspreadacrossthecontinuumthere.IseeOERincommercial
content,inaminuteImgoingtosayIthinkreallytheyjustkindofbalanceout,andsomepeopleadopt
theopenandsomeadopttheclosedandwhatever.
ButIsupposethereissomekindofscenarioequivalenttothenonnativepredatorbeingintroduced,
thatcomesinanddestroyseverythinginthenaturalenvironment.WhereOERcansomehowputallof
thecommercialpublishing,thecommercialpublishersoutofbusiness.Whichwouldthenhavean
impactonotherthings,whichwouldthencollapsedownandwould,youknow...StephenhasajobandI
haveajob,butwerepaidtodoonething,butwegettoproducealotofOERontheside,andjustcallit
partofwhatwedoandwegetourrentpaidanyway.Isupposetheressomecatastrophicchainreaction
thathappensasOERcannibalisescertainthings,thatmakeitsothatevenStephenandIdonthavejobs
anymore.Andwereleftwithoutrealcommercialalternatives,andwithoutalotofpeoplethatcan
actuallycreateOER,andthewholethingjustcompletelycollapsesinonitselfintoablackhole
somehow.Sortofsimilartowhatmayormaynotbehappeningwithnewspapersrightnow,sopeople
aresiphoningoffnewspapercontentordoingwhateveryouwanttocallit.Ifthenewspapersactuallyall
wentoutofbusiness,wouldthebloggersbeabletoreallygenerateenoughnewsoftheirown?Instead
ofjustpointingtoothers?Ifthatcollapsed,andthenthisbecameunstable,andthenitcollapsedaswell,
thenwhatareyouleft,startingoverfromscratchagain.Icanimagineyoureaskingforworstcase
scenario.Icanimagineonelikethatintheworldofeducationalcontent.
Dave:Thatssuitablydystopic.Thankyou.IknowthiswillbeastretchforyouSteven,canyouimagine
dystopic?
David:AndIvetakentheeasyonessofar.

Stephen:Yeah,hestakentheeasyones.Imean,oneOERforallisprobablyasbadasoneringfor
all,19youknow.Sothatobviouslyisaprettybadfuture.Therearevariationsonthatbadness,ifyoucan
believeit.Becauseyouknow,justlikethedictatorship,whereyouhaveonerulerforallright,youcan
havebenigndictatorshipsandyoucanhavetrulyhorribledictatorships,andtheneveryshadein
between.AndsowecanimagineaversionofoneOERforallwherethepurposesofthatOERare
genuinelyevil.Youknow,whereitsnotsimplyoneOERforall,butoneOERina1984ishsense,where
thepurposeofeducationbecomesnotlearningandedification,anddevelopmentofyourownpersonal
good,butrathersubserviencetothestate,orsomecorporaterepresentativethereof.Youknow,the
sacrificeofyourowninterestforthegoodsofthemany,asdefinedasthegoodoftheonepersonwhos
inchargeofeverything,youknowwhatImean.SoImean,andthisiswhywequiterightlyareafraidof
oneOERforall.Itsnot,Imeanitsnotanumberthing,itsnotthatonenessisinherentlybad;itsjust
thatwhentheresonlyone,whenitgoesbad,itreallygoesbad,youknow.Andtheresnowayout,and
itcangosouthinahurry.SoIthinktheresthat.
Dave:IsgoingsouthareferencetotheUS?
Stephen:No,goingsouthButitcouldbe,itcouldbe.AlthoughweliketothinknowthattheUnited
Stateshasturnedandisgoingnorth.Althoughthatsnotnecessarilyagoodthingeither,now,never
mind.
Soletmefocusontheotherdystopianfuture,becauseitstheonewhereallthepublishersareputout
ofbusiness.Anditstheonewhere,likewithnewspapers,theyrecannibalisedbytheblogs.Andthat
wasrepresentedasabadthing.Andyouknow,theworldwherethesepublishersandthesenewspapers
aretheoneswhoactuallyprevail,andtheirviewoftheworldbecomescurrent,seemstometobethe
badthing.
Overtime,andtherearesomesciencefictionbooksthatdealwiththis,andforthelifeofmeIcant
rememberatitleIvebeentryingheremoreandmoreandmoreofourcommonordinaryeveryday
livesbecomecommercialised.Somuchsothattheverywordsthatweuseinourconversationarein
factownedbyconsortia.Andsoformetobespeakinglikethis,Iwouldactuallyhaveapocketmonitor
thatrecordseverywordthatIsay,anddeductsanamountoutofmybankaccounttopaytotheowner
ofthatword,fortheuseofthatword.
Andnotjustwords.Wordsrepresentsimplythefirstelementofthissystemofpropertyownership.But
alsosequencesofwords.SoifIusedthephrasesequencesofwords,IhavetopayMicrosoftforthe
useofthewordsequencesbecausetheyobviouslyownsequences.Of,thatgoestoCocaCola.And
wordsgoestoWebsters,right.ButthenIhavetopayinadditionforthephrasesequencesofwords
IhavetopayAppleforthat.Thatwouldbeworse.
Anditsworsebecausewhatitmeansis,youknow,theverycapacityforthoughtthatImayhaveispre
owned.Youknow,Icannothaveanythingthatisnotalreadyownedbysomeoneelse.Anditsnot
simplythatIhavetopaythemmoney.Itsthatbecausetheyownthesewords,notonlycantheycharge

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memoneyforthem,buttheycanregulatetheappropriateuseofthosewords.Solikesequenceof
words,thatphrase,therewouldbeattachedtomyuseofthatphrasesequenceofwords,aclick
throughlicenceifyouwill,thatallowsmetousesequenceofwordsonlyincontextswhereIam
referencingorsupportingthecommercialuseofthephrasesequencesofwords,andnotinanyway
criticisingorsuggestingsomealternativetotheownershipofthatphrasesequencesofwords.
Andyoumightthinkthatsprettysilly,butthatstheAppleAppstorenow.Soitsnotthatfarfetched.I
thinkthatsworseeventhanoneOERforall.IfwehadoneOERforall,butitweretrulyandgenuinely
shareableandwecoulddowhateverwewantedwithit,thatwouldntbeasbadasthisworldinwhich
everythingisowned.Andthenfinally,whatwouldbereallybadwouldbetogobacktothatworldin
whichourunderstandingoftheworldiscreatedforusstrictlyandsolelybypublishersandnewspapers.
Itsnotthatfar,itsnotthatlongagothatthatwasourworld.AndImoldenoughtorememberit.
David:Imnot.
Stephen:No.AndIwasactuallygoingtosaysometimeduringthesession,youknowweweregoingto
saywerebeingveryciviltoeachother,butthatsbecauseImolderthanyou.
David:Respectforelders.
Stephen:No.Youregoingtooutliveme,whichmeansIhavetobenicetoyou,ormyreputationwillbe
trashedafterImgone.
David:Putdowns.IrememberIcanusethatone.
Stephen:Butyouknow,Imean,theGulfofTonkinincidentoryouknow,alloftheserealitiesthatwere
createdforusandshapedforusbymedia,andthenpresentedtousastruth,orattheveryleastas
objectiverepresentationsofthestateofaffairsoftheworld.Which,asweknownow,turnedouttobe,
toalargedegree,false.Eveninthisdecade,therepresentationofthingslikeweaponsofmass
destructioninIraq,right?Imean,thatwaswhatwewerebeingtold,period,endofstory.Ifyoudidnt
believethat,youwereacommunistoranAlQaedasympathiserorsomethinglikethat.Certainlynoone
tobetrusted,muchlessallowedtopublish.Sothatwouldbeworse,ifourknowledgeoftheworldcame
fromthesesourcesthewayitusedto?Canyouimaginethiscenturybeinglikethelast?Likewereally,
reallydontwantthat.
David:Atthesametimeifthe,ifyoujustturnthetablesandyoureplaceifinthenameofdiversityof
perspectiveanddiversityofviewpoint,westompedoutnewspapersormagazinesortelevisionor
whatever,Iwouldthinkthateventhoughyoucanarguerathereasilythattheperspectivesthey
representarebiasedinonedirection,orbiasedinanother.
Stephen:Orboth.
David:Whatever.Both.Idothinkthattheyrevaluablecontributionstotheconversation,aslongasyou
areparticipatinginaconversationjustnotwatchingFoxnewsallnightlong.SoifOER,ifyouendupina
worldwhereonlyjustlikeoneoddortwooddguyswerejusttalkingaboutstuffandyoudidnthave

biggerpeopledoingmoreindepththings,regardlessofwhatbiastheybroughttoit,Ithinkthatwould
beaworseworldthanwehaverightnow.
Dave:JonStewartisverywellservedbymassmedia.
David:JonStewartsgoingtobepresidentintenyears.
Dave:Ithoughthewasalready.
David:Official.
Stephen:Afterhelosestheshowandheslookingfornewwork.Itsgoingtobethebesthecanfind.
Dave:Iwanttogetyouguysbackontrackeventuallytotheend,wrapuptheotherconversation.So
maybeitseasierifweaskthethirdquestionnext,aboutthespeculativeawesomefuture.Andthengo
backtoexpectationsofthefutureandallowyoutowrapupthecoupleofquestionsthatwerelagging
fromearlier.
Stephen:CanIsayjustonething?
Dave:Sure.
Stephen:Thankyou.Ithinkthisisareallyimportantlinktodrawjustatthispointintime.Thedystopian
futurethatIdepictedwherecompaniesownallofourwords.Ivesaidonanumberofoccasions,and
otherpeoplehavemadethesamepointaswell,thatourlanguageoftodayisamultimedialanguage,
thatpeoplecommunicatetodaynotonlyinwordsanymore,butinthesemultimediaartefacts.These
multimediaartefacts,picturesofducks,arethewordsthatpeopleusetocommunicatewitheachother.
So,anditistheownershipofthesewords,thesemultimediawords,thatwearedebatingatthispoint.
Andsothats,thedystopianfuturemightseemreallyfarfetched,thatyouhavetopayforeveryuseof
yourword,butifthewordisanimage,nowthatjustisthesortofschemethat,youknow,Associated
Pressforexamplerightnowishatching.Whereyouknow,youusetheirphrases,youusetheirpictures,
youregoingtobemonitoredandcharged.
David:Thatsthedangerofthesemanticweb.
Stephen:Itis,seriously.Everythingispartofthegreatconversation,andeverypartofthegreat
conversationisownedbysomeone.Andthatsomeoneisnotyou.Sorry,Ijust,Ineededtothrowthatin,
becauseweneedtounderstandwordsinawidercontext.Becauseotherwisetheargumentseemsreally
absurdwhoownswords?Butthatswhatdidworkinthepast,andthatsexactlywhatpeopleare
tryingtobreakaboutthefuture.SorryIjustImdone.
David:Youhavetogofirstontheperfectfuturevision.
Stephen:Me?
David:Please.Iwentfirstonthelastone.Ibetneitherofushaveactuallyspentverymuchtimethinking
aboutthis.

Stephen:Iactually
Dave:IaskedbecauseIvebeenfollowingtheconversationbetweenyouguysforyears.Itsjust
occurredtomethat,havingthehappyconversationbetweeneachothermaybeoneyouvenever,ever
heardbefore.AndIthoughtitmightbeinteresting.
David:ThatswhatImsaying.
Stephen:Imeantherearedifferentperfectfutures,right.Theresmyperfectfuture,oneinwhichIlive
forever.
(laughter)
Dave:Youcouldmakethathappenifyoureallywantedto.Itsinyourcontrol.
Stephen:Yeah,andthentherestheperfectfutureofsocietyasawhole.OneinwhichwealloutliveI
dontknowIwasgoingtosayFrankSinatra.Itsbeenalongday.
David:Yeah,itsgettinglate.
Stephen:Butno,ifIhadtocharacteriseitinaphrase,IdwimpoutandquoteJohnStuartMill,asIhave
already,Eachofuspursuingourowngoodinourownway,insuchawaythatwedonothinderothers
pursuitoftheirowngoodintheirownway.Whatdoesthatmean?Imeanformethatsaworldof
maximalexperience,maximalenjoymentoflife.Aworldinwhichwerenotstrugglingforsurvival
anymore,butratherweareconcerned,ifwedefinegoodinthisway,tobecomethemostofwhatwe
canbe.Whateverthatis,whateverwethinkthemostof.
Andtherewillbepeopleoutthere,andIcelebratethemforthis,whodefinethatasdrinkingthemost
beertheypossiblycan.Andthatsokay.Becausetherewillbeotherpeoplewhodothesamethingby
tryingtobethefastesttheypossiblycan.Orgothefurthest,orthinkthedeepest,orsolveFermatslast
theorem(exceptthatsbeendone20,becausesomebodyactuallydiddefinethatastheirowngoodin
theirownway).Soitsaworldofselfdetermination.Itsaworld,wellitsaworldoffreedombasically.
AndIseeopeneducationresources,Iseealltheseresourcesastherichexpressivelanguageand
tapestryinwhichwemanifestthisfreedom,inwhichwemanifestourselves.Inwhichweproject
ourselves,ourexperiences,ourvalues,ourbeliefs,toourfriendsorfamily,totherestoftheworld.To,
youknow,asmuchoraslittleaswewant.SoIseethisasaworldinwhichweareimmersedand
engaged,youknow,asfullyaspossibleinallthepotentialpossibilitiesofexperience,ofbeinghuman.
AndIknowthatyouaskedforautopia,soyougetthatkindofutopiawhenyoupushmeonit.You
askedmetogofirst.
David:Istilldontknowwhattosay.Iwasstallingbyaskingyoutogofirst.IfIanswerthequestionof
what,whattheutopiawouldlooklike,Iwillendupwaxingspiritualveryquickly.Soforthebenefitof
everyoneintheroom,Illjustpassoverthatpartofit.ButwhatstheutopianendallforOERorforthe

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openeducationmovementorsomethinglikethat,isstillsomethingIdontknowtheanswerto.OhIm
goingtototallycopoutwithagreatquote.
Dave:YoucanquoteStephennow...
David:No.ImnotgoingtogotoMill,ImgoingtogotoLinusTorvaldsactually.So,sointalkingabout
thedesignofsoftware,Linussaidthat,saidDonteverthinkthatyoucandesignsomethingbetterthan
whatyougetfrommassivelyparalleltrialanderrorwithafeedbackcycle.Becauseitsgivingyour
intelligencewaytoomuchcredit.
Stephen:Yeah.
David:AndIknowtherearepeopleintheworldthathaveagoalofthewaythattheythinktheworld
oughttolookandthewayitoughttowork.Andtheywork,theyworkthemselvessillytowardthisgoal
thattheythinkisthisusefulthing.Imgoingtoendupwaxingslightlyreligiousanyway,so
Stephen:Goforit,Idontmind.
David:ImaMormon,sothatswhatyougetwhenImatthefrontoftheroom.Myapproachtolifeis
verymuchIrolloutofbedeverydayandwhateveritfeelslikeGodwantsmetodothatdayiswhatIm
goingtodo.Andifitmeanschanginguniversities,orchangingfieldsorchangingmyresearchdirection,
whatever.WhateverfeelstomelikeisthethingthatwillbemostusefultohimiswhatImgoingtodo.
AndsoIthinkthatwayofthinking,combinedwiththisviewofLinussaboutDonttrytohavethisend
planthatyoudriverelentlesslytoward.Buttrytofosteralot.Beopentoallthesepossibilitiesofthings
thatcanhappen.Andpeopletrythingsandsomewillfailandsomewillsucceed.Andifyoumakethat
experimentationlowcostenoughandlowriskenough,thenmorepeoplecanengageinit.Andthe
morepeopletry,themorewillfail.Andthemorefail,themoreitwillsucceed.
Andtome,OERisinterestingbecause,asaplatform,Ithinkitlowersthecostanditlowerstheriskto
differentexperimentsineducation,withdifferentmodelsofyouknowJimleft,blowingupthe
university,anddoingsomethingcompletelyontheoutside.Wellthatwouldbereallyexpensivetodoif
youdidntjusthappentohaveallofMITopencoursewarebootstrappedforyou,orsomethinglikethat.
SoinasmuchasOERwouldfacilitatealloftheseexperiments,thevastmajorityofwhichwouldfail,
someofthemwouldbereallyuseful.
AndweokayImnotgoingtospeakforyouIveseenthings,IveseenOERsthatIvemadeopen,the
mostinterestingthingshaveeverbeendonewiththemwerethingsInever,everanticipated.Butthats
whathappenswhenyoureopen.SoformetheutopiangoalforOERisthatOERactuallyprovidesthis
lowrisk,lowcost,veryinvitingplatformforlotsofexperimentsandlotsoffailure.Whichleadstothen
success,whichturnsouttobeprogresstowardaccesstoeducationforeveryone.Whichthengoesyou
know,justbeingeducatedisnttheendgoal;theresotherideasabouthaving,livingthekindoflifethat
youwanttolive,andthingslikethat.ThereisasayingthatifyouwanttomakeGodlaugh,tellhimyour
plan,youknow.WhichIlike.IthinkthatsaJewishsaying.Idbehappytobecorrectedbysomeonein
theTwitterverseorsomething.Thatsverymuchmyapproachtoit.

Imgoingtokeepdoingexperiments.Thevastmajorityofthemaregoingtofail.Maybetheopen
conduitthingistheonethinginmylifeIllgetright.Orthatwasuseful,youknow,thatmadea
contribution.ButImgoingtokeeptryingbecauseitsfun,anditswhatIdo.AndifOERmakesit
possibleforlotsofpeopletodothat,thenweeventuallymakesomestepsforward,thenIthinkthats
thebestwecanaskfor.
Stephen:Yeah,Ithinkthatsactuallyapointofcommonality.Andthecommonalityistherecognition
thatwerenotgoingtobeabletomanageororganiseorplanourwaytothisfuturestate,whateverit
happenstobe.AndnotonlyGodlaughs,butnaturelaughswhenyoutrytoplan.BecauseImean,
theresacertainsenseinwhichitsimpossible,therearesomanythingsthatcouldhappen.Andtheres
acertainsense,amoreimportantsensethattheactofplanningisatthesametimeanactoffooling
ourselvesintobelievingthatwehaveacausalagencyandindeedanimportanceinthecourseofhistory
thatwedontinfacthave.
ImveryinfluencedrightatthismomentbecauseIvebeenreadingWarandPeace21.AndImalmost
doneWarandPeace,whichisoneofthesethingsIneverdidplanwouldactuallyhappenbutitlookslike
itsgoingtohappen.AndoneofthethemesofWarandPeaceyouknow,ofcourseWarandPeaceis
abouttheNapoleonicWarsandallofthat.AndNapoleoncausedthis,Napoleoncausedthat.And
TolstoylooksatitandsaysyouknowWhatcausedtheinvasionofRussia?WasitjustNapoleonsaying
onedayImgoingtoinvadeRussia?Wellno,obviouslynotbecausealltheindividualpeople,the
hundredsofthousandsofmeninhisarmyeachhadtohavesomemotivationformarchinginthatarmy
andbeingpartofthatinvasion.Anditisnotpossibletoevenimaginethefullscopeofthathundred
thousandsetsofmotivations.Imean,Tolstoystruggleswithadozen,andtakesalmostathousandpages
justtocoveradozenofthesepeopleandtheirmotivations,muchlessahundredthousand.Sowe
cannotpossiblyimaginethatwecanplanoutthisfuturesociety.Whichmeans,asyousay,wehaveto
trymanythingsandfailcheap.AndactuallyTerryAndersonandRandyGarrisonhaveawholetheoryof
organisationaldevelopmentthattheyadvancedalongthisideaof,youknow,beingabletofail
cheaply22,andhaving

A2:failfast.

A3:andfailfast.Sothatmeansthat,youknow,themoreorganised,themorestructured,themore
setupthesethingsarethatwerecreating,themorelikelyitisthatweregoingtofailexpensiverather
thanfailcheap.SoImeanabigpartofthepicturethatIhaverevolvesaroundthat.ItslikeIjusthavea
mistrustinthesetheoriesoforganisation,thesetheoriesoflearningthatsayWeregoingtomanage
ourwaytosuccess.Weregoingtomanageourwaytoaneducatedpopulation.Wearegoingtodoit
foryou.Justgiveusenoughmoneyandwewillhaveaplan,right.Andweknowthroughhistorythat

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22

eventhingsliketheinvasionofRussiafail.AndifyoucantdothatwellIshouldntsayitlikethat,but
youknowwhatImean
David:CanteveninvadeRussia!Whatsinterestingisthatlineofthinking,whichIthinkwehavein
common,leadsyoutothatconclusion.Theconclusionitleadsmetois,Icantseefarenoughintothe
future,(a)becausetherearesomanyvariablesandbecause(b)IdontreallyunderstandwhatIthink
Godsplanformeallthewaydowntheroadis.WhatIcanseeiskindofthenextdoorthatopenstome.
Youknow,thenextopportunitytodosomething.Andyouknow,Itrytotakethoseopportunitiesand
thatresultsinmetaking,youknow,whatIwouldcharacteriseaskindofpragmatic,withinthesystem
kindofhackishapproachestotryingtomakeprogressfrominside,becausethatsthenextopportunity
thatpresentsitselftome.Thatswhatlookslikecouldbedone,andsoyouknowthatstheconclusion
thatitleadsmeto.Butitleadsyoutoaverydifferentone.
Stephen:Yeah,becauseIseethoseascoursecorrectionsintheTitanicaftertheiceberg.SorryIdont
meantobutsometimesthesephrasesjustcometome.
David:No,youreallowedtobeaspessimisticaboutthatnotthatyoureapessimistingeneralabout
thefutureofformaleducationasyouwant.Ithinkitcontinuestobeavaluablepartofamoredynamic
ecosysteminthefuture.Ithinkitsworthdoingwhatwecantosave,becauseIthinkitmakesa
valuablecontribution.
Stephen:ButtheresadifferencebetweensayingIcantmanagethefuture,andIcanknownothing.
Andwecouldmessaroundwithdifferentmeaningsofthewordknow,butIwontgetintothat,
becausewevealreadydonesemanticsandtheology;wecanleaveepistemologyoutofthisfortoday.
But,butwhatwecanknowinapragmaticeverydaysortofwayis,wecanhavesomesenseofhowdo
Iwanttoputthis?Imean,ifyouwerebuildingabridge,youwouldprobablybuildyourbridgebasedon
fairlysimpleNewtonianmechanics,right,forcesandstressesandmaterials,propertiesandthingslike
that.Andalthoughyoucouldntseeeverythingthereistoknowaboutthebridge,youknow,willitbe
usedto,Idontknow
David:invadeRussia.
Stephen:invadeRussia,orwillitbeusedtosendRussianwheattoFrance,whoknows,right?
Nonetheless,youcanstillcomeupwithsomeideaaboutbuildingbridges,andhowtobuildabridge
thatwilllast,versushowtobuildabridgethatwillcollapse,youknow.Dependingonyourintention,
youmightwantoneortheother.
AndIthinkthesameistrueoforganisationsandstructuresandsocieties.AndIthinkthatthereare
corollariestothestatementthatWecantmanageourwaytothefuture.Weneedmanyvoices,
thingslikethat.Ithinkthatwecanstructureoratleastdothesmallthingsthathelpstructureour
systems,oursocialsystemsandourinstitutions,insuchawaythattheydontdependonsomebody
doingthisplan.

Asimpleexample:courses.Openeducationalresources.Ifyourebuildingopeneducationalresources,
andyouwantthemtobereused,doyoubuildsomethingreally,reallycomplexandveryspecific,ordo
youbuildsomethingfairlygeneralandnonspecific?Andyoualreadyknowtheanswertothatquestion,
becauseyouwroteapaperaboutit.23Themorecomplex,themorespecific,themoretightlydefined
theresourcethatwerebuilding,thelesslikelyweregoingtouseit.
David:If,andthisisveryimportant,ifitdoesnthaveanopenlicence.Ifitdoeshaveanopenlicence,
nowthatcomplex,veryspecificthingiswideopen.Anditssomething,sothisisatenyearoldlearning
object,sorry,forthoseofyoujustjoiningusathome.Ifthisresourceisveryspecificandvery
contextualisedandtalksaboutlastnightsFriendsepisodeorwhathappenedonLostorsomething,put
inthisveryspecificcontext.AndIdonthavepermissiontomakeanychangestoit.
AndthiscomesbacktomyOERasalearningobject,plusanopenlicence.IfIdonthavepermissionto
doanythingwithit,thenIlookatthat,andtheoddsofitbeingperfectformeareverylow,soIpasson
it,justpuntonit.Butifyougiveanopenlicence,thenyoucanaddallthisflavourofthetelevisionshow
andthisandwhatthecurrenteventswerewhenithappened.AndIcansayNotsomuchofthecartoon
foxes,mykidswouldprefercartoonokapis.Mydaughtersanutforokapis 24.
Stephen:AndIdontevenknowwhattheyare.
David:Theresweetheart,Isaidokapisforyou.Theyrerelatedtothegiraffe.
Stephen:Okay.
David:Anyway,Icantakethefoxesout,putokapisinandshewouldlearnRubylikeamadman,because
itwouldbesomethingcoolforher.Thatpaperthattalksabouthowyoucantusethingsthatarereally
specificwaswrittenbyme,authorofoneof,youknow,opencontentlicences,justassumingthatyou
canneverchangeanythingyouhadtouseitthewayyoufoundit.Nowwhenyouaddtheopen
licence,itchangeseverything.
Stephen:Nowletsconceptualisethat.Ilovedoingthat.Because,now,whatisoneoftheseresources?
AndImmentioningthis,Imgoingthisway,becauseIwanttobringinthecontextofmixinglicences.
Becausewehaventaddressedthatatall.
David:AndIhaveonequestionIreallydowanttoaskbeforeweredone.SoImgoingtoholdontothat,
dothenextonefirst.
Stephen:Allright,soBecausewecouldlookatWhysGuideasasingleundifferentiatedentity,in
whichcasealicencethatappliestothewholemust,bydefinition,applytoeverypart,right.Buttheway
youvejustdescribedit,andIthinkthisistrue,weshouldntreallythinkofitasoneindividual,one
singleentity,asabunchofthingsbroughttogether.Bitsofwhichcanbeswappedoutasneeded.Really
WhysGuideis,youknow,firstparagraph,secondparagraph,image,anecdote,soonandsoforth.Allof

23

http://cnx.org/content/m11898/latest/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi

24

thesethingscombined.Thethingasawhole,justaswithanassemblageofwords,hasanidentity,it
mayhavealicenceattachedtoit,butthatlicencedoesnotapplytoeachindividualwordinthe
document,nordoesitapplytoeachindividualentity,picture,whateverinthedocument.
SoIthinkweneedtothinkofthesethings,youknow,theseresourcesthatweputtogether,notas
single,undifferentiatedwholes,butascollections,whereitstheorganisationofthesepartsthatmay
havealicenceattachedtoit.Butthatlicencedoesnotnecessarily,andshouldnotapplytothe
individualparts.
Ifthatstrue,thatfirstofallgivesmethewordsthatIneedformyconversationforustohaveinorder
todevelopasalearningcommunity.Becauseeachoneofthesepartsnowconstitutesawordinthat
conversation,andaguidelikeWhysGuideissomebodysayingsomethingwiththesethings.Butalsoit
addressesthequestionofmixinglicences,becauseitdoesntmatterifthepicturehasalicenselikenon
commercialandthefirstparagraphhas,youknow,whatever.Itdoesntmatterbecausethelicence
doesntapplytothosepartsitappliestothewhole.Doesthatmakesense?Isaythatwhenitbeganto
trailoff.
David:Ithinktheresapossibleworldinwhichitmakessense.Doesthatmakesense?
Stephen:IfyoureRobertStalnaker25itmakessense.
A2:...orifyoureTedNelson 26.Ithinkifyoureallywantaworldinwhicheachparagraphandeach
licenceandeachwhatever,hasitsowncopyrightattachedtoit,andyourenot
Stillifyoutakeabunchofthingsandputthemtogethertoproducesomethingnew,thatnewthingthat
youproducedisathing.Andnowitsgoingtobecopyrightedandyouregoingtohavetotalkabout
howyouwanttolicenseit,becausethatsjustthewayitworks.Butthatdoesntmeanthatthelicence
forthewholethinghasyoucansayyouknowthisparticularsequenceofthings,thisorganisation,this
wayofdoingthingshasacertainlicence.Butifyoulookdowninsideit,theindividualpartsmayhave
varyinglicencesorsomethinglikethat.Ifyoureally,ifyoudidntwanttocombinethemintoawhole.
Stephen:Yeah,Isee,itswhenwetreatthesedigitalresourcesasthoughtheywerephysicalthingsthat
yougetintotrouble.Whenyoutrytogatheritalltogether,andproducethispackagethatyoullputon
theshelf,thatswhenyougetintotroubleforlicences.Butyouknow,ifwejustliveinaconnected
world,thenyoucanassembleyourresourcethewayGeorgeandIassembledourclasswedidntmove
prettymuchanydigitalresourceanywhere,wejustlinkedtothem.Andsowhenyoujustlinktothem,
theresourcesitswhereitsits,ithasthelicencethatithas,andtheonlylicencethatwehaveappliesto
thesetoflinks,ifyouwill.Nowitswhenwetrytogatherthingsinandtreatitasthoughitwereaprint
resourceandhastobepackagedandboundandshippedoutincontainersthatwegetintolicence
problems.
David:Illagreewiththat,butno,Illagreewiththatand

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26

Stephen:Iseeyouvebeenthroughtheprogramme.
David:Thankyou.AndIthinktherearetimeswhenitisvaluabletopullthingstogetherandgatherthem
togetherandpresenttheminaunifiedpackage.Soincaseswhenthatstrue,thenyouhavetodealwith
licencecompatibilityissues.
Incaseswhereitsnot,youjustlinktoeverything,andifthenavigationisdifferentandthecolouris
differentandthisishere,butitsontherighthandsideonthispageandthelefthandsideIfalearner
hasenoughsparecyclestonavigateallthedifferentnavigationschemesandlookforthingsherewhen
theywerethereonthelastpageandwhatever,thenyouregreat.ButIthinkifyoureinasituation
wheresomuchisbeingdemandedcognitivelyofthestudentalready,thatalackofuniformityinthe
interfacemakesthemthinkenoughthatitdistractsmeaningfullyfromwhattheyretryingtolearn,then
Ithinkyoudohavetodealwithpullingthingstogether,puttingtheminaunifiedpackage,unifyingthe
navigationprocessandtryingtosimplifythatforthem.
Imnotsayingthatyoualwayshavetodothis,butImsayingthattherearesomecaseswhereyoull
wantto.Andinthosecases,youwillhavetodealwithlicencecompatibilityissues.Buttheopencourses
thatIvedone,IvedoneexactlythesamewayyouhaveIveleftthingswheretheyare,theyhavethe
licencestheyhave,Iproduceasetoflinkswithannotations.Lookforthiswhenyouread,youregoing
toanswerthesequestionswhenyouredone.Thathasalicenceofitsownanditdoesntoweanything
tothatcontentthatsstillouttherelicensedthewaythatitslicensed.Soitcanbeavoided,butit
probablycantalwaysbeavoidedwell.
Stephen:Imnotsuchabelieverinthethesisthatthereisalimitedcognitiveloadthatthestudentcan
handlesowehavetogetridofalltheextraneousstuffandfocusrightinonthecontent.
David:Soyoubelieveinunlimitedcognitivecapacity?
Stephen:No,Idontbelievethatfocussinginonthecontentsomehowlowersthecognitiveload.Ithink
thatthewholeactofgettingtothecontent,thedifferentways,ispartofthelearning.Rememberwe
weretalkingearlieraboutwhatisittoknowasubject?Andweweretalkingabout,andyouactuallysaid
it,youhavetoknowwhatthewordsmean,youhavetoknowhowtheyreused?Allofthatisthe
differentkindsofnavigation,right.Yougoseetheseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironment,ifyouwill.
Thatislearningaboutthedomain,theseresourcesintheirnaturalenvironmentistheseresources
presentedastheywouldbefoundbypractitionersinthedomain.Thatispartofthelearning.
David:Itspartofthelearning,butIwouldsayitsconstructirrelevant.Ifyouretryingtolearnmathand
alsosooneofthethingsIhateisyougetthesewordproblemsinmathandifyoudontreadEnglish
verywell,thennowyouremarkeddownonmath.AndyourabilitytoreadEnglishreallyisconstruct
irrelevant,ifwhatIwanttounderstandishowgreatamasteryofmathyouhave.Sonowifpartofmy
successinbeingabletonavigatethewebcomesintomygradefortrigormygradeforUShistory,my
abilitytonavigatethewebreallyisnotrelevanttomymasteryofhistory.

Stephen:Youvejustsketchedaworldviewinwhichyouhaveagradefortrigoragradeforworld
history.Withsomeveryfewexceptions,nobodygoesouttolearntrigjusttolearntrig,right.Ivestarted
itfourtimes,andThatwasajoke.
David:Youfinallygotitrightfourtimes.
Stephen:Ifinallypassedit.No,actuallyIpasseditallfourtimes.ActuallyIpasseditthefirstthreetimes
andthefourthtimeIstudieditwasonmyownandthatswhenIunderstoodit.Soitsactuallyagood
story,butitsirrelevanttothiscurrentcontext.
But,Imean,againwhatisanunderstandingofmath?Isitthisunderstandingofthispureformalismina
contextfreedomain?Independentofwordproblemsorlanguageorusageoranythinglikethat?Maybe
thereisasensetobemadeofapersonwhoselatercareerinlifeisgoingtobethatofapure
mathematician,inwhichthatmightconstituteunderstandingofmath.Buttheydstillhavetobeableto
communicatewithothermathematicians.Ormaybenot,theyremathematicians.ButyouknowwhatI
mean.
Fortherestofus,understandingmathjustisbeingabletodothewordproblems.Becausetheword
problemsareallthereisofmathtous.Andwithoutthewordproblems,therestofitiscompletely
superfluous.Youwouldntcare,youdontcareabouttherelationbetweenxandybeingthirtymilesan
hourandfortymilesanhour,unlesstherestwotrainsheadedstraighttowardseachother.Thatswhen
itreallymatters.YouseewhatImean?
Sowevetakenthesedomainsofknowledgeandslicedthemanddicedtheminwaysthatarevery
advantageoustothepublishingindustry,butnotadvantageoustoourcomprehendingwhatitisthatwe
needtocomprehend.Wedontneedtoknowtrigonometryproperlysocalled,weneedtoprevent
trainsfromcrashingintoeachother.Wedontneedtoknowgeometry,weneedtoknowhowmuch
mulchtoputontopofourgarden.Thosearethethingsthatweneed.
Andthecontexthere,youknow,thecontextofthelearning,inmymind,oughttobeyouknow,the
learningofhowtomanagetrains,orthelearningofhowtomanageagarden.Andthemathisjust
incidentaltothat.Thetakingofthismathematicalcontentandarrangingitintotheselargepredefined,
almostindivisiblestructuresactuallymakesithardertogoaboutdoingthethingsthatwewanttodo.I
justwanttorunagarden.Wellyouhavetotakefortyhourcourseinmath.Itmakesnosense.
Andtogobackeventothediscussionthatwehadearlier,weregoingtotakethiscourse,thefortyhour
courseinmath,ninetypercentofwhichwewillneveruse,atleastnotinthenexttenyears.Andwhich
thereforewillbecompletelyforgotten,andthenweregoingtocallthatefficient.Soitsnotmaking
sense.Itsnotefficient.Toalargedegreeitsnotlearning.
David:Sodoyouthinkaboutliberalartseducationasbeingefficientorlearning?Becauseitseemsto
methatheressomethingverybroadrangingwhichmayormaynothaveanydirectapplicabilitytoyour
life,butIwouldexpectyouwouldbeaproponentforverybroadranging,lotofphilosophyand
literatureandsomethingelse.

Stephen:Well,letstakeWarandPeace.WarandPeaceisprettyrelevanthere.ImreadingWarand
Peace.ImnotreadingWarandPeacetorememberit,whichisagoodthing.ImreadingWarandPeace
becauseIwanttoimmersemyselfinthisexperience.Sotheimmersingmyselfinthisexperience,thatis
thethingIvalue.ThatstheliberalartsthingthatIvalue.AndthecontentthatIgetoutofWarand
Peace,isntsomethingthatsgoingtobecontainedinWarandPeace.Itsgoingtobewhatbecomesof
meafterIreadWarandPeace.Soyouknow,wetalkaboutefficiency,saywellIsWarandPeacethe
mostefficientwaytogetto,well
David:Whateveritis,theanswersno.
Stephen:Wellwhat
David:Athousandpages.
Stephen:Wellnoteventhat.Thequestiondoesntevenmakesense.BecauseIdontknowwhatthe
resultsoftheexperiencewillbe.Itdoesntmakesensetotalkofhavingefficientexperiences.Isan
experienceofcampinginthemountainsmoreefficientthantheexperienceofwalkingthroughaforest?
Makesnosense.Aretheyeducational?Unquestionably.Whyaretheyeducational?Notbecausewe
remembersomecontent,althoughthatmightbeanepiphenomenonofthis,butbecauseofwhatwe
becomeforhavingdoneso.
David:SodidIbecomesomethingusefulfortakingastructuralequationmodelinclass,eventhough
nowIdontrememberthespecificsofit?
Stephen:Didyoubecomesomethingthatyouwantedto?
David:Ithinkso.
Stephen:Youthinkso.Imean,Idontevenknowwhatyoubecameasaresultofthat.
David:This.
Stephen:This.Well
David:Yeah,wellmaybeyoubetternotcomment.
Stephen:Iwasjustabouttosay,rightsomethingthatisnotme,okay.
David:CanIcomeroundtomyquestionbecausewererunningoutoftime.
Stephen:Yeah,absolutely.
David:Soasyouknow,Iknowyouknow,becauseyoucoveredit,astudentofmineatUtahStatejust
didthisstudyoftheratesofreuseofopeneducationalresourcesintheConnexionsrepository27.Andfor
thoseofyouwhohaventreadthedissertation,whathefoundisthattheresbasicallynoreuse.By

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reuseImean,Ishouldsaytheresno,norevision,noremixing,notranslation,noenactingoftherights
grantedbytheopenlicencebypeoplewhocometovisittheseresourcesbasically.Soinacollectionof
fiftyfivehundredsomemodules,Ithinkhefoundtenthathadbeenchangedinanywayfivetimesor
more.Andthisisoneofthebetterestablished,oldercollectionsofmaterial.
Andinadditiontohavingthematerialonthesite,thesitealsohasallthetoolsyouneedtomake
changesanddothings,andittracksitallautomatically.AndwethoughtIfwereevergoingtofindit
anywhere,thissiteiskindof,insomewaysthebestcasescenario,ofgoingtolookforhowmuchreuse
isreallyhappening.SowhenIstartedquotingnumbersinthesubonepercentrange,Ihadanotvery
briefpanicattack.AndIsaidBasicallyyestherearehalfamillionpeopleeverymonththatcometothis
site,whatever.Andtheyuseandreusethismaterialjustexactlythewaytheyfindit,whichisinnoway
anydifferentfromthewayinwhichtheyinteractwithCNN.com,ortheBBCswebpage.Theycome,its
free,theyreadit,theygoaway.
WegotoallthisextratroubletoscrubIPanddoallthesethings,sothatwecanapplyanopenlicence,
andthenitturnsoutthatbasicallynooneactuallyenactsanyoftherightsthatwegavethembyallthis
hugeadditionaleffort.TheyuseMITopencourseware,theyuseConnexons,theyusecoursewarethe
samewaythattheyuseCNN.comwhichistheycome,itsfree,itdoesntcostanything.Theyreadit,it
mightbefullycopyright,itmightbeopen,theydontknowtheyusetheminthesameway,theyjust
readitandtheygoaway.SoIaskedmyselfifthisisthebestcasescenario,isitevenworthit?Isallthe
troubleofopenlylicensingeducationalmaterialsworthit?Becauseitseemstomethatwegotoahuge
amountoftroubleandeffortandthenbasicallynoonedoesanythingwithit.
Nowyoucan,thereareacoupleofthingsyoucanargue.(Aroshbiss?)willarguewithmethathalfaper
centisahugenumber.Whichisonewayoflookingatit.Anotherwayoflookingatitisevenifonlyone
persondoesit,thenthatsincrediblyvaluable,becausetheycouldneverhavedoneitbefore.ButIreally
spentaperiodoftimeIthinkImkindofoverthecrisisoffaithstageofit.AndnowImjustintothe
howmuchsensedoesthisreallymake?stageofit.
Stephen:Myinterpretationofthatisthatitisthesystemworkingasitwasdesignedtowork.Youvegot
peopleouttherewhoarebeingtoldthatundernoaccountshouldtheyreusethings.Right,sothe
meetingupofcontentwhichtheycanuseistheexceptionratherthantheruletoalargedegree.And
itsnotevencontentthattheylike(nothingpersonaloranythinglikethat).ButImean,theyremuch
moreinterested,asamI,inmusicandcinemaandtelevisionandbooksthantextonwhatever.You
know,soitsnotupthereinmylistofthingstobereusing.IfIwasgoingtoberewritingsomething,Id
berewriting,Idontknow,WarandPeace,andnotatextbookonstatistics.
So,themainthingis,Ithinkwerelookingstillatagenerationthathasbroughtupthinkingoflearningas
somethingthattheyreceivepassively,ratherthansomethingthattheyareengagedintheprocessof
creatingforthemselves(Iverydeliberatelydontusethewordconstructing,becauseImnotgivinga
constructivistdiscoverylearningtheoryhere).ButIdobelievethatovertime,ifweworktowardthesort
ofeducationalsystemIthinkthatweneedtoworktoward,peoplemoreandmorewillbecomemore
responsiblefortheirownlearning.Andforthesimplepragmaticreasonthatwecannotafford,asa

society,asaglobalsociety,toprovideitforthemitsjusttooexpensive.Wedonthavetheresources
ontheplanettodoit.
Soanywayofaccomplishingeducationforallisgoingtobepeoplecreatingtheirownlearningfor
themselves.Butwearealongwayfromthat,andwearestilltoalargedegree,anditvariesabitfrom
societytosociety,buttoalargedegree,stillpresentingeducationassomethingthatweprovideforyou.
Andyouastherecipientquietlyandpassivelyreceive.Andsothatshowtheytreatopeneducational
resources.Ofcoursetheywould.Thatshowtheytreatmovies,thatshowtheytreattelevisionshows.
Thatshowtheytreat,underpenaltyoflawsuit,music.
Youknow,Imeanweshouldntexpectanythingelse.Sotheresachallengeinherentintheentire
projectofopeneducationalresources,notsimplytomakeresourcesopen.Andagain,ifwegotothe
Internetwecanfindtwelvemillionpicturesofducks,fivemillionofwhichareopen.Orwhateverthose
numberswere,Ivenomemorywhatsoever.ButyouknowwhatImean?Itsnotsomuchthat,as
fosteringthisenvironmentwhereitsokaytocreatenewthingsoutofexistingthings.Justasyouknow,
whenasasocietywewerebecomingliterate,wehadtogothroughastagetoconvincepeopleitwas
okaytomakenewcreationsoutofpreexistingwords.Youknow,eventhenovelisarelativelyrecent
invention.Andthewholeideayouknowitsfunny,novelstillmeanslongishbookandsomethingnew.
Theresaninterestingcoincidencethere.Imnotsuretheresanysignificancetothatcoincidence,but
itsthere.ButdoyouseewhatImsaying?
David:Yeah,itsoundstomelikewhatyouresayingisYesitsworthit.Davidyoujustneedtobe
patientforpeoplesmindsetandculturetocatchupwiththe,excusemeforsaying,affordancesofopen
educationalresources.
Stephen:Notjustthat,thatbutalsodontbesoconcernedtobuildreallybeautifulcourses.Because
especiallynowitsanawfullotofworkforsomethingthat,asyouquiteproperlypointout,isntgoingto
bereused.
David:ButtheConnectionsstuffisjustmodulebymodulebymodule.Insomecasesthosemodulesare
putintosomethingthattheycallacollection,whichisroughlyanalogoustoatextbook,butthisisreally
aseriesoffiftyfivehundredmodulesnotcourses.Thesearemuchmorebazaarthancathedral28,and
yetstill
Stephen:Yeah,wellbut
David:nothing.ItskindofAndtenyears
Stephen:Butpeoplestill,they
David:stillisntlongenough.

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Stephen:theyhavetodotheirlearninginsidethesecontentenclosureswheretheypaytuitionand
theysitpassivelyandthatshowtheylearn,right.Imean,nowondertheresnothing.Theonlypeopleat
thismomentwhoaregoingtoreusethesethingsareuniversityprofessors,andtheyactuallyhavean
incentivenottousethesethings.
David:SoifMITopencoursewarewerefullycopyrighted,butfreelyavailable,youcouldgothere,you
couldsurfit,youcouldreadit,youcoulddoeverything,youjust,itdidnthaveCreativeCommonson
thebottom,itjustsaidcopyrightonthebottom,whatinthelasttenyears,wouldtheworldhavelost?
Stephen:WellPardon?
Dave:SlightlydifferentinChina.
Stephen:BedifferentinChina?
Dave:TheresalotoffarrangingconsequencesIthinktothatthatarentsomuchaboutthereuseof.
David:AlthoughIcantellyoucanIsaythiswhilewererecording?
Stephen:Goforit.
Dave:Icanturnitoff.
David:Yourenottheonlyonerecording.Inanearlymeeting,thiswouldbelike2002to2003,where
twelveorsopeoplewereinaroomtogether,andtalkingaboutopencoursewareandtherewere
representativesfromdifferentprojects.Thereisarepresentativewhowillremainunnamedfroma
Chinesegroupofpeopleandarepresentativeofopencoursewarethatwillremainunnamed.Asweall
wentaroundcomplainingaboutOhmygoshyouknow,IPandcopyrightclearanceandopenlaw,that
wholepartislikehalfortwothirdsthecostoftheseprojectsthatwedo.
TheguyfromChinajuststartedlaughingandsaidWedontcare.AndweallthoughtOhhes
caricaturingyouknow,hesmirroringbacktousourstereotype,wealllaughedathisjokeandthenhe
wasntjoking.Andifyouthinkthatthecostissomewhereintheneighbourhoodofmaybehalfofan
institutionalproject,thatMITisfourmillionayear,roughly,theongoingcost.Youredroppingtwo
grandover,twomillionayear,justonIPclearance.Andthenwhatare,whatarepeoplemakingofthis
twomilliondollarsthatyearafteryearafteryearyoureinvesting?Theyrenotexercisinghardlyanyof
therights.
Stephen:Idont
David:withtheobviousexceptionofpeoplewhotranslatedirectlyintoanotherlanguage.Whichto
meisnotthemostinterestingkindofrevisionorremixing,itsjust
Stephen:Letsthinkaboutthis,ImeanthisismoneyspentonIPclearance,itskindoflikeforeignaid
moneythatsspentinNewYork.Imeanitslike,itsbeingsentdirectlytothepeoplewhoneeditthe
least.Imean,whyspendthismoneyonIPclearancetobeginwith?Imean

David:ThisisthequestionImasking.
Stephen:Imean,ifIweredesigninganopeneducationalresourcesystem,Iwouldnotbetryingtoclear
IPfromcommercialcontent.Idtrashthatseriously.Youknow,wevegotawholecommunityof
peoplewhocancreatethings,createcapacityforthatcommunity,inordertocreate.Andforgetabout
clearingIP.Imean,thatsridiculous,itsatotalwasteoftime.
David:Justcreateitfromscratch.
Stephen:Justcreateitfromscratch.DoyouthinkWikipediaspendanytimeclearingIPonstuff?You
knowImean,theyhaveyouknowafterthefact,youknow,ifsomebodyuploadssomething,theylltake
itdown.Butyouknow,theydontprescreenalloftheircontent.Theprojectwouldhavebeen
impossible.Itwouldhavecosthundredsofmillionsormore.
David:ItwouldhavebeenNewpedia.29
Stephen:WouldhavebeenNewpediaexactly,youknow.
David:Thatwasajoke.
Stephen:Yeah,butyouknow,againitsthisopeneducationalresourcesattemptingtoreplicatewhat
wastherebefore.Forgetwhatwastherebefore.Wedontneedtoreplicatetheentirepublishing
structure,youknow,wedontevenneedWikipediaforthatmatter.EvenWikipediaisabittoomuch
liketheexistingthereisanencyclopaedia,itistherepositoryforobjectiveneutralpointofview
knowledge.WhichintheendwillbethedeathofWikipedia.Butthatsalsoaseparateissue.Wedont
needtoreplicatewhatwastherebefore.AllweneedtodoissayWearegoingtocreateopencontent
andthenjustcreateitasacommunity.Butwehavetogetpastthisideathatthereareexperts,and
theseexpertswillbetheoneswhocreatethecontent,andthenwelldisseminateitouttothemasses,
andwewillpaytheexpertsoutofthesefoundationgrantsandallofthat.
David:Isnttheresomethingveryoddaboutamovementwhosegoalisreusablematerial,thatcant
reuseanymaterial,andhastocreateeverythingfromscratch?Isntthatweird?
Stephen:Youknowitwouldseemodd,exceptthepeopleweareentrustingtodothisarethepeople
whobenefitleastfromopencontent.Soyouknowitslikeentrusting,youknow,aproperty
managementcompanytomanageyourfreehousing,right.Whattheyreallywanttodoisgetpeople
intothepaidhousing.Sotheylldoalittlebitoffree,butreallythebigIdontknow,thatanalogyis
fallingapart.
David:Likemostfreehousingactually.
Stephen:Wellyeah,becauseweuseconstructioncompaniestobuildfreehousing,ratherthanthe
peoplewhoaregoingliveinit.Iwouldbetyouifpeoplewhoweregoingto,welllikeHabitatfor

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Humanity30,wherepeopleactuallydoparticipateintheconstructionoftheirownhomes,thosehomes
arentfallingapart.Andthosehomesarentabandonedtheminutetheyreuninhabited.
David:Buttheydoneedtomakecode,andtheydoneedtodosomethingsthatrequiresome,forgive
meforsayingit,expertise.
Stephen:Yeah,butthe
David:Soyoucanusealargearmyofvolunteersandwhatever,butatsomepointyouvegottohavea
coupleofpeoplewhoknowwhattodo.
Stephen:Butagain,theentireworldisnotmadeupofnovices,right?Thereisahugebodyofexisting
expertiseintheworldnow.Andforthatmattercodeexistsinhousesmostlytoprotectpeoplefrom
commercialhousebuilderswhocutcorners.Youknow,codedoesntexisttomakeitharderfor
somebodytobuildtheirownhouse.Althougharguably,alotofcodefunctionsinexactlythatway.Ifwe
wereanationwherewebuiltourownhouses,ourentirehousingcodewouldbedifferent,right.And
inspectionsandcodesandallofthatwouldhelppeoplebuildbetter,ratherthanpreventingcrooksfrom
cheatinghomeowners.
Dave:GentlemenImsorry,wehavetwocompetingschedules.Oneofthemsays4.30,oneofthemsays
4.45,so
David:Minesays5oclock.
Stephen:Thereisarequesttoatsomepointtalkaboutaccreditationandweshouldprobablyaddress
that.Somaybe
David:Okay.SoletmerestatewhatIthinkyouresaying.Ithinkyouresayingthatopeneducationis
somethinggoodandweoughttokeepdoingit,butwedontnecessarilyneedformalinstitutions
involved;itshouldbesomethingthatsdonebylooseknitnetworksofpeopleandformaledshouldstay
overhereandopenedcanbeoverhere.
Stephen:Andalso,tomakethepointevenmorestrongly,formalinstitutionsandactualpublishershave
todatebeenswallowingandabsorbingmostoftheresourcesthatwevebeenspendingonopen
educationalresources.Andthisisnotagoodthing.
Itskindoflikewehavethisbigvacuumofcommercialenterprise,suckingallthemoneyawayfrom
openeducationalresourcesandprofitingthemselves,andwestilldonthavetheresourceswewanted.
Andhundredsofmillionsofdollarshavebeenspent.Anditdidntgotothepeoplewhocouldbe
producingtheseresources;itwenttocommercialpublishers,institutions.Thinkaboutit,ImeanMITgot
fundingtodoopencoursework.MIT!Imeantalkaboutinstitutionsthatdontneedmoremoney.
David:Itsstunning,whenIfirstwasthinkingaboutdoingopencontent,IsentanemailtoEricRaymond
andanemailtoRichardStallmanandIsaidHeyIhavethisidea.Doyouthinkitwouldbeuseful?Do

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youthinkweshoulddoit?EricimmediatelysaidYes,andyoushouldcallitopenanything.And
RichardsaidYes,youshouldcallitfreeanything.Idontcarewhatthesecondwordisjustmakesure
youcallitfreeActuallyEricwasntnearlysodogmatic.ButRichardscommenttomewasYoushould
doit.Youshouldcallitfreewhatever.Andifyouactuallycareaboutit,youneedtodropoutofyour
PhDprogramme,youneedtogetoutofacademia,youneedtodowhatever.Becauseallofthatstuffis
justgoingtogetinyourwayand.Look,wouldLinuxhaveeverhavehappenedifIdidaPhD?Richard
saystome.Youneedtoabandonthatwholething,justgetoutofallofitandcome,liveinthewoods
ordowhateveritisthatRicharddoes.AndhetoldmethatifIdidntdothat,Iwasntamoralperson,
andyouknowtheseotherthings.Sowedontspeakmuchanymore.
Stephen:IgotintoanargumentwithhimwhenIwasinBarcelona,andhesaidAnddoyouknowIhave
anofficeatMIT.Isawit,itsacardboardsign.Andpeoplesaythingsanddothings
David:ButifIcansaythiswithoutmakingitsoundpersonal,thenfromyourperspective,Ishouldget
outofthebusinessofopeneducationaslongasImpartofthesystemofformaleducationandhavean
academicappointment.Andanswerthatwithoutconsiderationsofpersonalfeeling.
Stephen:Wellno,Imean,itstheold,allleftistsmustbeinpovertyargument.Ihearthatalot,being
someonefromtheleft.
David:Ihearyouresaying,butyouresayingformaledjustneedstostayoutofthisbusiness,andIma
formaled,forbetterorforworse.
Stephen:No,whatImsayingis,inyourroleasformaled,thatisyouknowprofessorofaninstitution,or
theownerofapublishingcompany
David:Letsbeclearemployeeofapublishingcompany.
Stephen:Oh,Ithoughtyouownedit.
David:Notanowner.Imnotoneofthefounders.
Stephen:Allthatstreetcredthatyoubroughtin,youcouldntgetownership?
David:No,Ihavealittleownership,butImnotafounder.
Stephen:Yeah,butanyhow,inthoseroles,ifyouaredivertingfundingforopeneducationalresources
to,say,youruniversity
David:andawayfrom
Stephen:awayfrom
David:woulditgotoJoe?
Stephen:LetssayJoe.

David:JoesgoingtosendaproposaltoNSFortheHewlettFoundation,sayingIcandosomething.
Stephen:No,ofcoursenot.Theentiremechanismofsendinginproposalscreatesasysteminwhich
peoplewhobecomeexpertatsendinginproposalsgetfunded.Andthattendstobepeoplewhowork
atuniversitiesorpeoplewhoworkatcompanies.
David:Idontthinkthatfundingisdiverted.IdontthinktheresanychanceofJoereceivinganyofthat
funding;Idontthinkyoucanargueitsbeendivertedawayfromhim.Therewasneveranychanceof
himreceivingit.
Stephen:Heneverhadachance.Yeah,therewasnochanceweweregoingtogiveJoedemocracysowe
dontliveinfascism.
David:Yeah,absolutely.Iwasjustthinkingthatmyself.
Stephen:Yeah,okay.
David:Poorlydonebuteffective.
Stephen:Oursystemofaccreditationinasensemirrorsoursystemofopeneducationalresource,well
oursystemofeducation,right?Accreditation,educationanditsnotsurprisingthattheparallelsthere,
becauseitsallpartofthesamesystem.Andweworkwithasystemofaccreditationwhichfunctions
verymuchasshorthandforit.YouhaveaBachelorofArts,yourepresumedtoknowsuchandsuch.
And,whereamIgoingwiththis?WhereIwanttogoisontheonehand,thecurrentsystemistoo
clumsy,itstoocoarselygrained.Ontheotherhand,thecurrentsystemperpetuatesastructureof
learningthatisitselftoocoarse(Idontwanttosaytooinefficient,havingspentalmostanhourtryingto
undercutthatconcept).ButyouknowwhatImean?
David:Imean,tomeaccreditationisaboutprovingtosomeoneelsewhatyouknow.Butactually
studieshaveshownratherconsistentlythatyouhaveaverypoorideaofwhatyouactuallyknow.You
dontactuallyknowwhatyouthinkyouknow.
Stephen:Right.Andthelessyouknow,themoreyouthinkyouknow.
David:Yeah,andviceversa.
Stephen:Viceversa,yeah.Whichexplainsalot.
David:Itseemstome,andIwillgostraighttoit,itseemstomethataccreditationisaboutefficiency
andscale.
Stephen:Wellyeah,itisaboutefficiencyandscalethatstrue.
David:IamIBM,Imgoingtohirefivethousandpeoplethisyear.Imgoingtohavetwentyfivehundred
peopleapplyforeachposition,andIjustcannotreviewaportfolioofauthenticexperiencesand
argumentsprovidedbyeachoneofthem.Iwantanobjective,supposedly,thirdpartytomakesome

representationtomeontheirbehalfthattheydohavethesetofskillsthatIneedinthisposition.Andif
theressomebodythatswillingtoplaythatrole,nowIcanhavealotmorepeopleapplyformyjob,I
canmakethehiringprocessalotmoreefficient,Icanscaleit.
Andtheuniversitysroleasanaccreditorissimplythat.Becauseifyourejustgettingadegreesoyou
cansayYay,Ihaveadegree,youwouldntpaythemoney.Youdjustreadthestuff,youddo
whatever.Thevastmajorityofpeoplewantthedegreeasthatobjective,thirdpartyrepresentationto
anemployer.SothefutureofaccreditationquestionformeisWhoelseandinwhatotherwaycanyou
fillthissupposedlyobjectiveroleofthirdpartyrepresentationtoanemployer?Ithinkthatsthewhole
gamerightthere,asfarasaccreditationgoes.
Stephen:Wellyes.ShallIsayandorbut?
David:Sayand.
Stephen:Andwhatwealsogotforourmoneywasasystemthatprescreensoutforusallthepoor
peopleandalltheforeigners.
David:Wellnottheforeigners.
Stephen:Yeah,becauseifyoudonthaveaUSdegree,IBMwonthireyou.Unless
David:ThereareforeignerswithUSdegrees.
Stephen:Yeah,butthosearetherichforeigners.Andbythetimetheyvecomethrough,theyrealmost
notforeignersanymore.
David:WellImnotgoingtogotherewithyou.
Stephen:But
David:Youreonyourownwiththat.
Stephen:ButImeanifitwas,iftheintentoftheuniversitysystemwassimplyandtheaccreditation
wassimplytodeterminewhohasandwhohasnttheknowledge,therewouldntbetherequirementof
payingwhatwasit?Ahundredandeightyninethousand?
David:andeightyninethousandforMIT.
Stephen:Imeanbecauseweknowthatitdoesntcostthattodeterminewhetherornotsomebodycan
programmeacomputer,evencreatively.And,buttheguysatIBMaregoingtolookatthatMITdegree
andtheyregoingtosayScreenhimin.
No,notbecausetheyhaveknowledge,becausetheMITdegreeisneithernecessarynorsufficientto
establishthatthepersonhastheknowledgethatyouneed.Notnecessaryobviouslybecauseyoucould
havetheknowledgeelsewhere.Andnotsufficient,becausetheknowledgethatMITtaughtyoumight

notbetheknowledgethatyouneedonthejobtheremightbeamismatch.Youdontknowbecause
youhaventlookedatit.
David:Oryoumighthavecheatedyourwaythroughclassortheresall
Stephen:Yeah.Whatyouarebuyingwith,whenyouhirethepersonwiththeMITdegree,isthat
personssocialstanding,thatpersonsconnectionsinthecommunity,thatpersonsdemonstrated
capacitytoraiseahundredandeightysomethousanddollars,tobuysomethingthathasnoinherent
value.
David:Orthebravadotogointotwohundredthousanddollarsindebtoversomethingthathas
Stephen:Wellyouhavetohavemorethanbravadotogettwohundredthousanddollarsindebt.You
havetohaveahouse.
David:Maybethisyearyoudo.Youdidnthavetolastyear.
Stephen:Yeah.No,wellthatmayhavebeentrueintheStates,butyouknowintherestoftheworldyou
actuallyhadtohavesomeassetsbeforeyouwenttwohundredthousanddollarsintodebt.Inthe
UnitedStatesapromissorynoteandadog,thatwouldhavedoneit.Andthedogwasoptional.
David:Theinterestingquestiontomeisif,IthinkWesternGovernorsisaveryinterestingmodelofnext
generationaccreditation,becauseintheUSrightnowitsrealpopularforcompaniestotrytobundle
phone,TVandInternetallinapackageandbuythewholepackage,andwhatever.Whichinsomeways
istheuniversitymodelWecanprovidethecontent,weprovidethetutor,weprovidethe
assessment,itsallinabundle.Andyoueithereatthewholething,oryoudontgetanyofit.Whereas,
whenItalkedaboutthedisaggregationofhighered,Imtalkingaboutthoseindividualpiecespullingoff
intodistinctunits.
Stephen:Sure.
David:WesternGovernorsdoesntofferanycourses.Theyprovidesomekindofadvisingitsnot
contenttutoring,butlike,thesearethethingsyouhavetodoifyouwanttogetthisdegreekindof
leveladvising.Andtheyreallyarejusttheaccreditationpiece,theyrenotthecourses,theyrenotthe
otherthings.Anditseemstomelikethenextstepinthis,howthisunfoldsispeoplepullingIcan
imaginepeoplethatoffercourseswithnoaccreditation.Justaseasilyasyoucanimagineauniversity
thatoffersaccreditationwithnocourses.
Stephen:Ivedoneit.
David:Alotoffacultieshavedoneitactually.
Stephen:Imean,eventheConnectivismcourse,forthenonsigneduppeople,isacoursewithout
accreditation.Thisraisesthequestionbecauseaccreditationisstillmonopolyeconomicswhether
WesternGovernorsUniversitywillgivecredittoanyparticularstudentwhosatisfiesthecriteria.ButI

cantofferacourse,orno,moreaccurately,Icantofferacredentialthatcanbeofferedthrough
WesternGovernorsUniversity.Doesthatmakesense?
David:Yeah.
Stephen:SoIcantoffermyowncredentials.
David:ThroughWesternGovernors.Youcanofferthemon
Dave:Ahem,summaryremarks?(Voicestalkingtogether)
Stephen:Imnotsurethatthatslegal.
Dave:Iknow.ItsalmostlikeImthemoderator.
Stephen:Imean,(laughter)thereexiststothisdaynonetheless,governmentsanctionedmonopolieson
credentials.Icannotofferauniversitydegree.Idliketo.Itwouldbeagoodsourceofrevenue.Icould
probablyretireoffoftenstudents,especiallyatMITrates.AndmaybeIcouldevenfindpeopletopay
that,butIdprobablyhavetowork.ButinfactIcant.Ithinkwithinourlifetimesthatwillchange.Ithink
thatwithinourlifetimesthegovernmentsanctionedmonopolyonuniversitycredentialswillbelifted.
AndinterestinglyIthinkitwillbeliftednotbecauseitsunfair,notbecauseitkeepsoutthepooror
anythinglikethat,butasawayforgovernmentsnolongertohavetopaytofundtheuniversitysystem,
whichtheywontbeabletodo.
David:Welltheyregoingtonamethemderegulationoranticompetitiveness...
Stephen:Wellthats,yeah,everythingispassedinthenameofderegulation.Butwhatitusuallymeans
ismoremonopoly.Butreally,thereasonwhytheylldoitistheydontwanttopayfortheuniversity
systemanymore.BecausewhatisitthatyoubuywhenyougotoMIT?Itsnotthelearning,itsnotthe
instruction,itsnoteventakingatestandhavingitmarked.Itsthebuddybuddynetwork.Andpeople
dontwanttopayforthebuddybuddynetwork.
Ivesaidsometimessomethingslike,thatIvewritteninthepastgovernmentsarentgoingtowantto
payforsocialclubsforrichpeopleanymore.AndIthink,especiallyasfinancesgettighter,thatsgoing
tobecomemoretrue.Andweregoingtoseethemonopolyoncredentialinglifted.Thatswhenyoure
goingtostartseeingyourreuse.Thatswhenyouregoingtostartseeingtheseopeneducational
resourcesactuallymeansomething.
David:ButIthink,soIagreewiththat,but
Stephen:Notand?
David:Notand.Iagreewiththelastpartyousaid.IthinksocialclubsforrichpeopleareYaleand
HarvardandStanfordandMITandtheseplacesthatthegovernmentgivesthemnomoney.Theyrenot
publiclyfunded,theyreprivate,oftenendowment.IfyoucometoUtahStateUniversity,whereits,well
usedtobemajority

Stephen:IthinkitsquaintyouthinkMITandHarvardandallthatgetnogovernmentmoney,butwell
leavethataside.
David:YouunderstandwhereImcomingfromthough?
Stephen:Yeah.ButIstillthinkitsaquaintbelief.ItslikesayingBoeingdoesntgetgovernmentmoney.
David:No,no,no,thatsunderstood.ButyoucomparetoUtahState,orArizonaStateorsomething
else,whereitsprimarilypubliclyfunded.Anditsnotrichkidsgoingtoschoolthere.NotlikeitisatMIT,
Yaleand
Stephen:Butitsnotpoorpeopleeither.
David:theseotherplaces.Youdbesurprised.
Stephen:ItsUSpoor.Notworldpoor.
David:ButtheschoolsareintheUS,why
Stephen:Yeah,butthereisntaUtahStateinJohannesburg.
David:No.
Stephen:Andprobablyneverwillbe.
David:Probablynot.
Stephen:TheremaybeanotherMITorHarvardetcwhichwillsuckasmuchgovernmentmoneyasit
can,but
David:Didyouwantsomekindofsummaryremark?
Dave:Itriedto,Isaidsummaryremarksandyoucalledmerude.
David:Iwasonlykidding.
Dave:Youhurtmyfeelings.
Stephen:SowhatweveestablishedisDavidsanutterfailureasNo,Imjustkidding.
Dave:...anunusualpunishment.
Stephen:Okay,actuallyyeah,wedoneedtowrapup,andfirstofallIcantbelieveyoureallstillinthe
room.
David:Icanteither.Itsatestamenttotheenduranceofthehumanspiritthatyoureallstillhere.
AudienceMember:Weheardtherewasaraffle.

(laughter)
Davvid:Mustbepresenttowin,exactly.DinnerwithStephenactually,datelatertonight,itswhatwere
rafflingoff.
Stephen:Wedid,wehavegifts.Sothankyoutothemoderators.
David:Thankyousomuch,wereallyappreciateit.
(applause)