A Special Interview with Ori Hofmekler

Under-Eating and Exercise

By Dr. Mercola
DM: Dr. Joseph Mercola, DO
OM: Ori Hofmekler
OM: Its a very interesting phenomenon, people who are hungry and exercise. Look
what happens when they find out f I take Joe, right now, and you did not eat but you are
a trained person, you are a tough guy and you go and do an exercise, you will break
protein. But interestingly enough, the body has a preservation mechanism that protects
your active muscle from wasting itself. In fact, youre going to break other tissues not
the active muscle.
Basically, we can design ourselves but we need the combination of under-eating,
hunger, and exercise together. Most people today do not know hunger. They dont know
what it does but there is another element. As we get older, our tissues are becoming
older -- the muscle fiber, the skin, the whole body.
The body has mechanisms to keep you from getting older, to preserve itself. And one of
them is the recycling of amino acid. The mechanisms take that broken protein, tumor,
sick cells -- take them, digest them, and recycle the amino acid to build back the
muscle. Its a phenomenon. As we get older, this mechanism becomes very intense. Its
the reason why as we get older, we tend to waste tissues.
Partly in my opinion, the body biologically starts to scavenge to find all the sick cells and
tissue and destroy them. When that happens, lag time of lack of food -- time of hunger
and lack of food -- this cleansing mechanism, this recycling of unwanted protein in the
body, is happening massively, and if you are exercising at the same time, it spares the
muscle tissue. Yes, it will take away broken fibers or broken protein, but it will spare the
muscle tissue. You can actually build muscle tissue while under-eating. Its an amazing
phenomenon.
DM: Its somewhat of a tangent but I think an important one. There are many people
who believe in fasting, that it has great value. And certainly there is a wealth of scientific
evidence to support the value of having minimal calories to improve longevity. I mean,
there is lots of science -OM: Calorie restriction (CR).
DM: Calorie restricted diet. Im wondering in this process -- my concern is that people
who are actively exercising, or people who are designed to eat more protein and fat, if
theydo this without paying attention to that, if it may cause problems. Im wondering if
you can address that.
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What are your views on this especially as a lacto-vegetarian? Do you think its okay to
just do it without calories, or do you think if youre going to do something like that you
need to address those protein intake requirements, especially the leucine at 3 gm per
day? (indiscernible 2:58).
OM: A very good question. I address it in my new book The Muscle Gene. There is
more science behind calorie restriction than any diet in the world today. There are many
scientists and scholars in the world that would use the calorie restriction guides to
(indiscernible 3:13) show how in animals it can extend life.
However, there are side effects to calorie restriction. One of them, the body becomes
cold, your thyroid goes low and in my opinion, testosterone will follow soon. Even insulin
is high. You start to lose some very important element of human life and human quality.
I doubt if you can build lean muscle mass and be strong on a calorie restriction. You
may be of some durability. I personally dont think this is the ideal way. There is a lot of
science behind it. We can take advantage of the science but this is not the right way.
The studies on intermittent fasting have shown that even animals can benefit by
(indiscernible 3:59) some period of under eating - that means a lack of food, and
overeating - that means you eat a lot. So in the end of the 24 hours, you dont eat less
than other people only the timing is different.
Also, there is more and more evidence that, yes, when we eat right, theright food, we
can overeat. We can eat 2000, 2500 calories a meal over extended periods of time. It
has been done in the past. I wrote about it with a lot of evidence, how Roman people,
the Roman soldier was 125 lbs to140 lbs only. The cavalry men were not more than 125
lbs. The mighty Roman soldier used to eat a lot, over 3000 calories a day.
There were also others besides(indiscernible 4:48) the Romans and the Roman warrior.
The Greeks used to eat supper as the main meal of the day. During the day, they ate
very little, munching on fruits, vegetables, whatever was accessible. There was no time.
They were nomad people. They would mobilize armies during tough terrain, sometimes
during the winter when food was not even accessible. They got used to it. But supper
was the main meal of the day. Breakfast did not exist in that time. Even in the Bible it
did not exist. I mean, Im not Christian but even Jesus has his last supper, not his last
breakfast. It just did not exist.
Biologically, its not how many calories we eat per day. We can eat a lot of calories.
There is no question that you are right about this assumption, to build muscle, you need
calories. You need energy. You cannot just live on protein alone. The evidence shows
that the food that we do better with than carbohydrates is fat. In my opinion, yes, during
the 70s and 80s, there was a lot of talk(indiscernible 6:00) that a high fat diet causes
cancer, but it was wrong, there was no evidence.

In fact, other research, other scholars say that protein can cause pressure on the
kidney, and a high protein diet can cause kidney insufficiency. But that is wrong too,
there is not even one bit of scientific evidence to show that protein can cause damage
among healthy people, not even one. In fact there is research that shows that it doesnt.
Dr. Mercola, you can eat 2.5 gm up to 3 gm, I would say, 2.5 gm of protein per kilogram
of body weight. Thats a very high protein diet.
DM: Per day?
OM: Per day and still there is not a risk of kidney insufficiency. If we are talking about
sick people already with kidney insufficiency or diabetic people then (indiscernible 6:51)
I agree. These people have to be careful with protein, people who have gout and stuff,
but these are clinical cases.
Were talking about the society who does not suffer from chronic diseases -- athletes,
fitness people -- regardless of age. Do not be afraid of quality protein. In fact, we have
very well adapted. There were times that people just ate meat and vegetables or fish
and vegetables and nothing else. We adapted to that.
We all have the biological system to accept such a diet. Fat fuel has been proven
effective. Evidence is coming more and more that its the kind of fat that you eat that
can either benefit you or damage you. So all processed vegetable oil, all of these other
fats, besides olive oil, are adverse. The high omega-6s have been shown on animals
and humans to cause serious effects.
First of all, it stimulates the female hormone estrogen. Thats the last thing that we want.
In both males and females, over-estrogenic activity is bad. We know that omega-6 does
stimulate it. It does stimulate cancer. When we lose the balance between omega-6 and
omega-3, we really put strain on our body. So its not just putting omega-3 in the body,
its avoiding the high omega-6.
DM: And much of the omega-6 that we eat in processed foods is damaged because its
not an essential fat, but it has double bonds and it can go rancid.
OM: Its polyunsaturated. There is a big argument that we do well with polyunsaturated
fat as a fuel, but we dont. We need to use monounsaturated and saturated fat. The
body can use saturated fats well. If you eat butter, if you eat milk fat, although you
know, Im not for that -- even if you eat meat fat or lard, you can utilize it. In fact they are
pretty much resilient to damage, and relatively more.
Its better to cook with butter than cooking with canola oil. People need to know the
truth. If you suffer from high cholesterol and stuff, thats a different story but as a healthy
person, you can utilize it.

Coconut oil is one of the best oils in the world. It has a magnificent ratio of fat proven to
be utilized very efficiently by the body. I mean, we can find a good fat, but overall we
need to avoid high omega-6. Get some good omega-3 ideally in my opinion; ideally
from plants. This is why.
We dont need so much omega-3 as people think. We need it but not so much. We are
one of the only species who carries the esterase enzyme. We can produce exactly the
amount of EPA and DHA, the active polyunsaturated fatty acid that we need. If you eat
chia seed then you get a plant omega-3, and you can convert exactly the amount that
you need.
Fish oil is a different story. I personally am against it because of the way they are
processed. I dont know how much of it is rancid. Second, we never adapted to get such
a massive amount of fish oil to our system. When we eat fish, its a different story. There
is plenty of evidence. I can show you that by putting fish oil in the body, although there
are benefits definitely of the DHA, there also is the amazing rate of rancidity and
accumulation of free radicals that means that damage can happen.
So we can do very well on a balanced diet.
DM: Thats the conclusion I reached. Our initial studies suggest that the majority of fish
oil is rancid before you even open the bottle or the capsule because there is no
protective antioxidant there, unlike krill which has astaxanthin.
OM: Its a very interesting point. I always believe that you should smell, even taste food
before you swallow it. If it smells stinky, funky, dont eat it. Dont trust it.
DM: Its a good principle. The one challenge with that though is fish have this -- and it
could be a sign of rancidity but there is a chemical when fish expire which causes the
fish to smell, and which isnt very good smelling. Its there even though there is no
documented rancidity. (indiscernible 11:23).
OM: It could be. You are right, there are some exceptions because there are
individualistic tastes, and some of the greatest herbs have aftertaste and smell.
However, overall, when its coming to food -DM: Smell is a good indicator.
OM: Smell and taste. I always say both of them. If you eat fish and its gummy, and it
smells too fishy, dont take a risk. Look at fish oil, I know that today they put a deodorant
in it to take away the smell, but some of it does still smell, and why would you put a
chemical to take away the smell? Its a huge industry. Not a good idea in my opinion.
Now, omega-3 oil is very important here because omega-3 oil activates all these
prostaglandins which are anti-inflammatory. So talking about injury is a must. If you
have a good source of omega-3 oil from food or any kind of food based source, it is a
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good idea to increase the consumption if you have an injury and especially people who
exercise.
You really need to be careful with the amount of antioxidant and the omega-3 that we
consume. We cant allow ourselves to be deficient. I think a study that was published
about 10 years ago show that the first thing that the muscles lose is actually omega-3.
Omega-3 is being lost very fast. So that should be part of the diet.
But the most important thing is what I said before, good protein sources. Good protein
sources and good timing of meals. Milk and milk proteins are the best protein for human
fitness. It is the only protein, milk and milk products including raw milk, cheese
especially, and whey. They have all shown more records of building muscle and losing
fat at the same time than any other protein.
DM: Im speaking for many people who just heard that and would have vigorously
objected. Theyre saying no because their argument is going to be, what other species
drinks milk as adults when theyre grown up? Thats a common argument; probably the
most common objection or justification people use to oppose that statement.
OM: It is a silly question. We save animals. We have animals, dogs and cats.
DM: Animal rescue is part of your life.
OM: Yes, I really love animals.
DM: Youre fond of animals. Thats one of the reasons why you choose not to eat them
as part of your -OM: The only reason, the main reason I dont eat meat is because I love animals. I
have some experience in my life so I just dont eat meat. That has to do with a humane
reason. Im talking about the subject objectively now.
DM: I would never argue that for anyone. Even if I know their life depended on it. Its a
spiritual reason and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. (indiscernible 14:19)
OM: The rest of my family still eats meat. Its me, and thats the way I am. The animals
that I save also eat meat. So the point is this, all the species that I know -- my brother is
also big time in animal saving for all his life -- all of them virtually without exception love
to drink milk. In fact, they have a good sensitivity.
We need some (indiscernible 14:41) study. I want to do some videos of how animals
know how to choose between good dairy and bad dairy. I mean, you give them
commercial GNC whey, commercial whey, versus grass-fed cow whey, you can
immediately see the difference. Especially cats, they are very sensitive.

Let me tell you, whey is a super food. Dairy has been eaten by other species for many,
many years. If you give them the opportunity, they would love it. They would take
advantage of it.
I totally disagree (with the objection to dairy products). I heard about this opinion it is
wrong. In fact, science showed the opposite and scientists today are puzzled with the
idea of human breast milk. Its a super food. It helps a baby that has almost no immunity
to grow and develop into a healthy adult.
Does it fit adult women? Well, forget about the moral connotation of having human
breast milk. Scientists worldwide have started to believe that its very possible that if we
can find a way to mimic breast milk with a food of some kind, that it will feed any age
including the elderly. In fact its a super food.
Our body constantly needs to grow. Not that we are growing big, we recycle tissue, we
rejuvenate tissue. One of the most important elements of anti-aging is to give your body
the chance to recycle the tissue, to destroy the sick cells and recycle them.
A good whey protein and milk protein have both shown to support your body in this
regard. They have amazing bio active compound that do not appear in any other protein
food.
DM: I just have to comment on the breast milk. I believe personally thats the ideal
human food. There are human breast milk banks primarily for women who donate itfor
infants, premature newborns that really are sort of between life and death. The
unfortunate challenge though -- you probably know this -- is they pasteurize that breast
milk. They take the best food and they seriously damage it.
OM: Thats horrible. I can tell you that you can get good raw milk products today. Raw
milk itself has largely been questionable because of bacterial contamination. So you
really need to know your source, but there is amazing knowledge today about how to
produce raw milk products, especially cheese.
DM: Thats the other justification many people have against raw milk, and one that we
have reviewed many times on the site is this risk, this concern, this public health threat
that youre going to introduce some potentially very serious infectious disease risk if you
drink raw milk.
Yes, thats possible but most of those risks are a result of the really poor hygiene and
farming practices that are done during regular commercial dairies which are targeted
toward pasteurized milk. But they can get away with all that stuff because they know
the animal going to be killed.
OM: Youre very right, if you look at U.S. regulations and the scrutiny on raw milk
cheese In California for example, people in that state are allowed to produce raw milk. I
know that even here maybe its allowed too. The scrutiny of the government on this type
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of farm is the highest. So when you look at the bacterial count of the raw milk, it actually
has to be lower than the pasteurized milk. I dont know why people are so afraid
because if its an officially approved, brave I would say, company that wants
(indiscernible 18:22) to produce raw milk -DM: The concern is that most people dont get it in California, they get it in other areas
like here, I get regular -OM: But they have to be under the regulation usually.
DM: I think actually most of them are not. I guess some of them. I just dont know the
specifics but many people sell it locally outside the guidance of the protection of the
local health authorities.
OM: The people who produce raw milk are usually people who take care of the cows
and have concern about the consumer.
DM: So their cows are not going to be sick. Theyre not going to get infection
secondarily, and theyre not going to be under antibiotics and the risk is pretty remote.
OM: Yeah, they dont feed them Roundup feed like other cows, which is one of the most
detrimental things. Grain and Roundup feed could be detrimental to the cow. If you want
to go to the good side, go to those manufacturers who really try to provide you with top
wholesome nutrition. Raw milk is one of them, definitely one of them.
DM: Clearly another option that people can do, as well as many people who are
interested in building muscles -- especially weight trainers -- have used branched chain
amino acid supplements and pills that they can easily swallow. Im wondering if you can
comment on that versus getting it from a whole food.
OM: That is a very interesting phenomenon and I think science is still in the infancy of
understanding it fully. When you infuse or administrate to your body free forms of amino
acids, particularly branched chain amino acid, they do signal the muscles to grow.
DM: When you say free form, this is the type you would find in a supplement?
OM: Yes. I.V. administration -- infusion of amino acids, can turn you diabetic. They
cause such a level of insulin resistance that not even fructose can cause.
DM: I wasnt aware of that. So even worse than fructose is if you have a branched chain
amino acid supplement -- orally or intravenously, its going to be more dangerous and
detrimental than fructose.
OM: Here is the thing. The study was done on intravenous injection of the amino acids.
They were not done free form. However, when you check all the signs -- lets be clear
about it, whey proteins have the fastest ratio of amino acid release to the blood.Some
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scientists believe too fast. I disagree. I think it can be used perfectly. Free form amino
acid administration is even faster, much faster than whey.
Somebody should study how the rate of appearance of free form amino acid in the
blood is very similar to administration of amino acid. Why would you take a risk? What
Im talking about is fact. Its not even arguable.
All amino acids including the most beneficial ones administrated I.V. to the circulation -I would say up to 30 gm is not such a large amount is thought to cause six times more
glycemic impact. And inactivated or not (indiscernible 21:21) this still is six times more
than administration of 30 gm of glucose. This is how bad it is.
Actually scientists are still puzzled about how this happens. They believe that this amino
acid, the rate of appearance, the magnitude of appearance, is something that you may
never adapt to. We always eat whole foods, so the release of protein is actually slow.
Its not that fast. What it does, it shuts the insulin system. It activates certain amino
acids including leucine, and works on the pancreas directly on the beta cell to release
insulin. But at the same time it also deactivates the system whenever it appears in that
amount, the insulin activity. This is a fact.
When you take free form amino acid as a supplement, you put yourself in a risk of
having a similar effect. Why would you risk it? The one thing that nobody argues about
is the opposite effect on blood glucose levels that happen when you eat the same
amino acid as part of a whole food. Then this amino acid has an amazing glucose
sparing effect, a blood sugar stabilizing effect.
In fact old research shows that good quality protein food from meat -- Im not a meat
eater compared to whey food has a positive effect on blood sugar, building muscle
changing body composition, and sparing muscle while losing fat. Its just an amazing
simple phenomenon. You cannot make money on that.
You cannot just say I have a meat that will build muscle and burn fat, and you dont
have a meat like this. No, its just pure topnotch information that people know. Choose
quality protein -- that you must. It has nothing to do with our selling you anything. Its a
fact. Prepare your meal in the right ratio.
One more very important element is the timing of the meal. The best time to eat an
anabolic meal is actually after exercise. After exercise, the muscle becomes extremely
recipient to assimilate nutrients, especially protein. As ironic as it is, exercise totally
inhibits the mTOR or the mechanism that builds muscle. You cannot build muscle while
you exercise. It just doesnt happen.
DM: During the exercise?
OM: During the exercise. As you exercise, there is total inhibition of the mechanism that
builds protein. In fact, proteins are breaking down. But whats interesting is there is a
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compensation mechanism right after exercise. If you take advantage of it and eat your
protein meal, low glycemic, no sugar added, right after the exercise, the compensation
is swift. Protein breakdown stops immediately, and there is a shift toward the build up
that can last massively for four hours after every exercise. Some scientists say 24 to 28
hours after exercise.
If you are smart with your protein meals or recovery meals, you can do not just one, you
can do maybe two or even three recovery meals after the exercise, get an impact I
would say of 90 gm of net protein utilization. Its phenomenal.
DM: 90 gm over the three meals?
OM: Over a period of four to five hours. It could be phenomenal. Maybe Im
exaggerating a little bit because it takes a lot to eat three meals, but you dont want to
exceed the 30 gm of protein per serving.
DM: Per serving is the limit.
OM: Yes.
DM: Is there a significant difference in weight? So if there is a 90-pound woman who is
exercising versus a 250-pound NFL linebacker who is doing it.
OM: Obviously there is a difference because it has to be based on lean muscle mass.
But based on scientific research the difference is not that big. Quite honestly, due to
many other elements which Id like to talk about, even a 135 pound woman can benefit
from two recovery meals rather than one, and a 200-pound muscleman may need one
more meal ahead of that. The difference is not that big.
The point is this, its not so much the amount of protein that you need to deposit in the
muscle, its how much protein was broken down, and how much you need to first of all,
cover the body. Its almost like an accounting, and then it deposits more.
I want to emphasize it again. Coming back to leucine, this amino acid that signals
branched chain amino acid leucine, valine and isoleucine. All of them are very unique.
The body looks at them as top priority. When you eat protein, the nine essential amino
acids and some non-essential amino acid, look at what the body does. Most of the
amino acids including essential are degraded. Up to 50 percent or 60 percent of them
dont even leave your stomach. They are degraded.
DM: So theyre digested in the stomach.
OM: Yes. But branched chain amino acids are not digested. They reach the circulation
at over 80 percent. The reason is that both the liver and the stomach are lacking a
certain kind of enzyme that break the branched chain amino acid. The body is like

nature. Itsees it as a top priority that only the muscles can utilize them. The muscles can
utilize them more than just building blocks. It also activates the protein synthesis.
But as a top priority, the body wants to use first of all, all amino acids as a building
block. You cannot allow yourself to destroy tissues. You need to first of all supply
enough leucine for maintenance, which is at least 3 gm a day in my opinion. They say 1
to 3, its about 3 gm per day including for a small woman.
DM: Thats just maintenance.
OM: Just as maintenance.
DM: Even if youre not interested in strength training, youve got to maintain that level.
OM: Yes. And then, after that,give the extra leucine, because the other function is partly
glucose homeostasis. Leucine supports the production of alanine to support the alanineglucose cycle. It basically recycles the carbon from protein to glucose, to produce the
glucose. But most importantly, it does this to signal and activate the mTOR to build
protein synthesis in the muscle. Thats very important.
For that reason, a high protein breakfast is very important. What you want to do, if you
are into good fitness, is have a good high protein low glycemic meal to cover at least the
leucine requirement early in the morning. Its also good for your energy. Its good for
your health. If you want to lose body fat its a very good way to do that. Once you cover
the basic requirement, every other meal is becoming anabolic. Its a fantastic
phenomenon.

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