When designing combination systems, it is typical that the sprinkler system demand

including the NFPA 13 hose allowance is NOT the most demanding system, the
standpipe system IS, so there is an over design, a cushion if you will.
As an example, let's say you have a light hazard sprinkler system with a theoretical
water demand of 150-gpm (.10/1500) and a hose alowance of 100-gpm, for a total
of 250-gpm. A building with even just 1 standpipe would have a standpipe system
design/demand of 500-gpm, which exceeds the sprinkler system demand by 250gpm (not to mention the 100-gpm allowance in the sprinkler demand).
If you had a building with multiple standpipes and had a system "maxed" ou at a
1000-gpm standpipe system demand, there would be at least 750-gpm left over for
the hose streams, in addition to the sprinklers.
So the point is that there already is some overlap built into the designs of these
systems within the 2 standards. The fire department will have enough water to
apply their hose streams from a properly designed standpipe system, and still leave
the sprinklers in service, or they may decide to shut the sprinklers off. either way,
this is already unstated, yet built into the standpipe system stadard's design
criteria.
Building size has very little to do with whether or not you need a fire pump. I
recently looked at a 2500 SqFt tire installation shop that had a water demand (flow)
greater than a 1.8 million sqft high rise that I am currently evaluating. The high rise
has a 1000 gpm demand, most modern warehouses have a demand of 1400 gpm to
2000 gpm. The same gpm is required whether the warehouse is 5,000 sqft or
500,000 sqft. The pressure required would be the same also, all other variables
being equal (building height, hazard, storage configuration, main length, etc.)
2. Fire pumps are needed where water supplies are inadequate. Evaluation of the
water supply not only includes the flow information (Static Pressure & Residual
Pressure at some Flow) but also the available amount of water for fire protection
use. In other words, you could have 150 PSI Static with 140 PSI @ 1500 GPM
flowing, but if the supply was only good for 10,000 gallons, you would need a pump
and water storage. Small pumps are routinely installed in single family homes, with
a demand of 50-60 gpm. (13D)
3. Many jurisdictions would require more than Ord GP II for the storage, and the
display center at first look seems to be mercantile - which is ordinary GP II.
4. You could be doing your client a huge dis-service by specifying an ordinary group
II density in an area with 32 ft. deck height. The building would have very limited
use if they were to re-sell later. I always try to consider an exit strategy at first look
and at least give the client the option. Little or maybe no extra installation cost
could result in a lot of building value.

5. Pipesandpumps is right, these basic questions show that you are in over your
head. But, maybe you are just concerned with budgeting or you are checking on
something you have been told, or whatever, so, to answer your questions... #1 Most
likely not, but maybe. #2 Not usually, but maybe.

When sizing a water storage tank for exclusive fire protection use, and fed by a fire
pump, should the tank be sized on 150% of pumps rated capacity (at the req'd
duration)or just the fire sprinkler demand + inside hose?
Fire sprinkler demand + inside hose x duration= tank capacity. If u have any dry
pipe or preaction system then as per NFPA 13 u have to add the gpm required to fill
the systems for your total gpm for the tank.
If you have standpipes per NFPA 14, you have to consider the flow/duration for
those - if it exceeds what the sprinklers require.
It is my opinion that the water tank is to be sized for the greatest demand. If you
have hydrants, that is often your greatest demand. Second is usually standpipes,
followed by sprinklers. If you have a pump taking suction from the tank, you want
to be sure you have enough water in the tank to be able to complete the pump test.
Travis, so what do you think in this case - make the tank able to supply 30 minutes at 150%
capacity + 30 minutes at 100% capacity and compare that with the sprinkler + hose demand at
60 minutes and see which is greater?
1500 gpm pump @ 150% = 2250 gallons X 30 minutes = 67,500 gallons
+
1500 gpm pump @ 100% x 30 minutes = 45,000 gallons
--------------------------------= 112,500 gallons
compared to sprinkler demand (+ hose stations inside) = 1,642 gpm X 60 minutes = 98,520
gallons
Of course the pump test durations were just arbitrary - not that anyone is going to need the
pump running at 150% for 30 minutes to test it... but it would be embarassing to run out of water
for the pump test and the above seems to dictate at least a 100,000 gallon tank.
If fire flows are an issue I could calculate it for my own purposes but would want verification by a
PE or FPE before proceeding. After reading everything about it I could find I concluded ISO fire
flows are an area sprinkler layout technicians aren't qualified to navigate. What the heck, a set of
plans with $300 or so on a $10 million project could save me a lot of headache down the road so
why take the risk?
Why the 1500 gpm pump on a project that requires but a 30 minute supply? Sounds light hazard
to me unless there are ISO fire flows involved.

From NFPA #20 appendix A-2-3

A stationary pump for fire protection should be selected in the range of operation from 90 percent
to 150 percent of its rated capacity. The performance of the pump when applied at capacities
over 140 percent of rated capacity can be adversely affected by the suction conditions.
Application of the pump at capacities less than 90 percent of the rated capacity is not
recommended.

Seems a 500 gpm pump would handle anything up to OH2.

My understanding the correct way is to calculate total sprinkler demand plus hose stream
allowance for whatever time requirement there was. 400 gpm sprinkler + 250 hose = 650 gpm
which would call for a 39,000 gallon water storage regardless of the pump size.
Personally I like to size the tank for the pump at 150% for whatever time is required. In the case
of a 500 gpm pump I prefer to size the tank at 750 gpm for 60 minutes and provide a 45,000
gallon tank. Come on, the cost difference between a 39,000 gallon and 45,000 is very minimal.
What are we talking about, $6,000 more on a project that might be sellign for $10 million?
I've always been able to offer it to the owner as an alternate which they always accept when you
explain the larger tank would take care of any additions or a density increase should something
change down the road.
But the answer to the question (not addressing ISO fire flows) is sprinkler demand plus inside and
outside hose stream allowance if any.
See Table 11.2.3.1.2 in NFPA 13, 2007. This lists Water Supply Duration Requirements by
occupancy type.

the table you mentioned will give me the Hose allounce and the duration. should i
consider density/area curve to figure out the water demand for sprinklers. have you
used this density/area curves before, can you explain how to use these curves
We are not trying t design the system, the project is in planing phase we need to
allocate the space for storage tank, i like to have some storage tank size the fire
protection will be performance spec item
Assume Ordinary Group I occupancy due to the labs. To find the amount of water
needed you would take 0.15 gpm x 1,500 sq ft (as shown in Figure 11.2.3.1.1) which
comes out to 225 gallons. The amount of water multiplied by 60 minutes comes out
to 13,500 gallon. This would be your tank size. Section 11.2.3.1.2 states that you
only need to take the minimum duration.
In NFPA 13, 2002 you have to account for outside hydrants if you water service is
energizing outside hydrants. Not sure why this was removed in 2007 but it was (or
it was placed where I didnt see it).
Thanks MechEng2007, Do we need to include hose stream allownce for storage
water calculation

If you are supplying outside hydrants, you may need to look at site fire flow
requirements in the IFC. That could be significantly more volume than the fire
sprinkler demand.
If you are not feeding hydrants from your tank, then you don't need to include the
hose allowance.
Not sure if you need to figure the hydrants. I didnt see it in the 2007 edition. If you
are supplying hydrants and the applicable standard is 2003 you have to. You may
need to use IFC if the local AHJ requires it.
Assuming that this project is in an area covered by the I-codes, you first look to the
IFC to see what to do, as the codes will override the standards.

Often times, we sprinkler guys, don't worry about the site fire flow requirements
because that is being handled by the civil guys. But, if you are in a rural area and
the tank for the sprinklers is to supply the hydrants, then you may need to get into
site fire flow requirements. That is in Appendix B of the IFC, if I recall correctly.
There were some threads on here a while back about the site flow demands vs
sprinkler demands. Traditionally, site flows are much greater than sprinkler, but
sprinkler pressures are much greater than the site pressure requirements.
This project will not be covered by IFC and it's highly unlikely outside hydrants will
be an issue either. The NBC will reference NFPA 13 1995 edition. I have done many
projects throughout NWT and Nunavut that are almost always tank based. The tanks
will invariably be installed in a heated mechanical crawlspace, usually multiple
tanks where you would have say 3 x 5000 gallons for fire water and 1 x 5000 for
domestic depending on the building occupancy. We've also installed tanks where
one of the fire water tanks is fitted with floats to allow for a percentage to be used
for domestic purposes but we are getting away from that. We are also getting away
from installing hose cabinets for occupant use in the Territories, but your AHJ will
have to address this and if they are required, then you will have to allow for hose
streams.
My most important question is: When calculating the water supply required for this
system do we assume that the sprinkler system and the standpipe system will
operate simultaneously and thus design the system to accommodate both? Or
maybe the sprinklers and the inside hoses?
Supposedly they are not assumed to operate simultaneously, my understanding so
far is the following:

1- I calculate the system to meet the NFPA 14 regulations regarding the water
supply and the pressure required for the most hydraulically remote hose and thus I
have a gpm and psi values that my pump has to meet.
2- I calculate the sprinkler system down to the pump and see whether the sprinkler
system requirements exceed those of the hose system. Usually the sprinkler
demand will be less than that of the hose demand. If that is the case then then my
work is done.If the sprinkler demand is higher then my water supply has to meet
the sprinkler demand. I am talking here about the supply GPM and PSI. It is a given
that that the tank must hold enough water for both systems.
Is this methodology correct?
My other question is this: Under table 11.2.3.1.1 NFPA 13 there is a part about inside and outside
hose. What exactly are these two hoses? Are these two hoses (1.5" and 2.5") the hoses mentioned
under the ClassIII in NFPA 14?Correct, you do not have to add the sprinkler system demand to the
standpipe demand. The only caveat being that if the flow demand for your sprinkler system is higher
than that of your standpipe you must use the sprinkler demand value in your calculations instead.For
your second question, inside hose deals with 1 1/2" hose stations within a building, connected to your
sprinkler system. If there are none, do not add an inside hose. Outside hose will be determined be
occupancy classification.