Professional Documents
Culture Documents
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Plaintiff,
vs.
ELTON SIMPSON,
Defendant.
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(Bench Trial)
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APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
Court Reporter:
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206
I N D E X
WITNESS:
Dabla Deng
By Mr. Morrissey
By Ms. Sitton
DIRECT
CROSS
REDIRECT
RECROSS
VD
208
218
E X H I B I T S
NO.
DESCRIPTION
ID
Tape Compendium
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288
299
EVD
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P R O C E E D I N G S
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THE COURT:
Good morning.
the presence of the defendant, his counsel, and counsel for the
United States.
09:47:07
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
10
THE COURT:
11
MR. MORRISSEY:
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
Mr. Deng yesterday had trouble hearing
14
15
16
better, and I would ask that for the portions of the testimony
17
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25
THE COURT:
09:47:23
Of course he may.
09:47:33
208
DABLA DENG,
4
5
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
minute.
Mr. Deng, you've been working with the FBI since 2005;
10
is that right?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And for 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, did the FBI
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
For all of those years did you file your tax returns?
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
09:48:07
09:48:28
09:48:59
09:49:08
209
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
For the years that you did file a tax return, did you
include in your tax return the money that the FBI had paid you?
A.
No.
Q.
When you would meet with the FBI over the last five years,
did they tell you at times that you had to include this money
10
A.
11
Q.
But you did not do that when you filed your returns?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
16
09:49:58
17
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
09:49:28
THE COURT:
microphone, sir.
22
09:51:12
23
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
24
Q.
25
A.
Religion.
09:51:53
Q.
A.
Yes.
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
bit?
A.
09:53:27
A little bit.
8
9
210
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
Yes.
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16
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
17
Q.
18
A.
You go to Iraq.
19
09:53:50
09:54:20
20
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
21
Q.
22
A.
23
09:54:27
24
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
25
Q.
09:57:34
1
2
hear him.
3
4
211
THE COURT:
Can
THE WITNESS:
Check.
THE COURT:
All right.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
10
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
11
Q.
12
A.
13
09:57:49
09:57:57
14
Q.
Mr. Deng, did you meet with Mr. Simpson on October 23rd,
15
2009?
16
A.
09:58:57
Yes, sir.
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18
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
19
Q.
20
A.
Bouncing soon.
21
Q.
22
A.
Me.
23
10:00:43
24
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
25
Q.
10:01:06
A.
2
3
212
Say it again.
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
South Africa.
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11
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
12
Q.
13
A.
14
10:01:27
10:01:50
15
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
16
Q.
17
A.
18
19
10:01:54
20
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
21
Q.
22
A.
23
10:02:18
24
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
25
Q.
10:02:54
A.
Q.
From where?
A.
South Africa.
213
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
Shaitan.
Q.
A.
It means devil.
10
10:03:05
11
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
12
Q.
13
2009?
14
A.
10:04:21
Mr. Deng, did you meet with Mr. Simpson on November 7th,
Yes, sir.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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17
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THE COURT:
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10:05:03
I'm beginning at
All right.
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BY MR. MORRISSEY:
21
Q.
22
A.
It's Ally.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
10:05:26
10:06:04
A.
Yes.
Q.
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
214
Objection, hearsay.
Just one moment.
MR. MORRISSEY:
10:06:23
Sure.
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Is that right?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
MS. SITTON:
14
THE COURT:
10:06:31
Objection, hearsay.
Overruled.
15
heard him say like what's on the tape, he's relaying what's on
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the tape?
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18
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witness?
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
22
10:06:41
10:06:58
just say?
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THE COURT:
Right.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
25
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
10:07:07
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
Me.
Q.
10
A.
Mujahid.
11
Q.
12
A.
Mujahid.
13
Q.
Mujahideen?
14
A.
Mujahid.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
10:07:24
10:08:11
10:08:16
18
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
19
Q.
20
A.
School is a front.
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10:08:39
22
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
23
Q.
24
A.
25
215
10:08:55
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
your role with the FBI, told the group that you won money?
216
MS. SITTON:
Objection.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Yes.
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
Where did you tell them you had gotten the money from?
A.
10
Q.
Did you and Mr. Simpson discuss what could be done with
11
that money?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Can you tell us what Mr. Simpson said about what could be
14
15
A.
16
17
10:09:44
10:10:00
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19
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
20
Q.
21
A.
Travel.
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10:11:03
23
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
24
Q.
25
10:09:33
10:12:11
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
Q.
A.
Rewind, sir.
Q.
I'm sorry?
A.
Q.
Sure.
10:12:26
THE WITNESS:
something else.
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11
BY MR. MORRISSEY:
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
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17
MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
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MS. SITTON:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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MS. SITTON:
25
217
10:12:54
10:13:35
Yes.
No further questions.
10:14:31
All right.
Could you leave that?
You want it up?
Yeah.
10:14:49
218
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. SITTON:
Q.
Good morning.
A.
Good morning.
Q.
that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
A.
Dinka.
12
Q.
Dinka.
13
A.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
In here.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
with English.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes.
10:15:14
10:15:22
10:15:36
10:15:45
10:15:54
Okay.
219
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And I think another time when he asked you what country you
said Arizona.
That's
10:16:18
10
A.
Yes, I understand.
11
so --.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
Christians there?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
25
A.
Yes.
Okay.
10:16:30
10:16:45
10:17:01
10:17:15
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
FBI?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10:17:30
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
2008?
17
A.
I don't remember.
18
Q.
19
220
10:18:00
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And you were getting paid based on the information that you
22
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
10:18:14
10:18:32
221
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
Is it true?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
14
him for -- you were following him for about three years, right?
15
A.
More.
16
Q.
17
right?
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
You were acquainted with him for longer than three years?
22
A.
23
Q.
You got to know him and you hung out with him for more than
24
three years?
25
A.
Yes.
10:18:45
10:18:58
10:19:20
10:19:29
10:19:43
Okay.
222
Q.
Does
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And 2008?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And 2009?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
didn't you?
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
Maybe, yes.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
A.
Long.
20
Q.
They were long ones, right, two and a half, three, four,
21
five hours?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
10:20:04
10:20:21
10:20:36
Those
10:20:49
223
A.
Repeat.
Q.
Sure.
A.
Yes.
Q.
right?
A.
Q.
10:21:05
A couple minutes?
You watched a
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
No.
16
stuff.
17
Q.
18
9-11?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Okay.
10:21:22
10:21:40
It talked about
10:21:54
10:22:13
224
A.
Q.
A.
that.
Q.
In fact, you watched a video with him on July 4th, 2007, about
Okay.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
10:22:37
10:22:57
13
14
A.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
A.
Sometimes.
17
Q.
18
things together?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
A lot.
23
10:23:20
But no movies.
So you did lots of
10:23:36
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
10:23:45
225
right?
A.
Talk a lot.
Q.
I'm sorry?
A.
Q.
And that's because you were telling Mr. Simpson that you
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
17th.
18
remember that?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
24
25
10:23:57
10:24:08
10:24:20
Do you
10:24:55
226
A.
Q.
Okay.
10:25:56
A.
I don't know.
Q.
Do you know that Mr. Simpson was teaching you about the
understand that?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
taught?
13
A.
I understand.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
Did you
10:26:10
16
MS. SITTON:
17
THE COURT:
18
I don't know if I
10:26:21
19
BY MS. SITTON:
20
Q.
21
22
10:28:34
23
Mohammed, right?
24
A.
25
Q.
So when he's talking about living in Abu Bakr time, and Abu
10:28:57
anything now.
227
A.
Q.
Sure.
MR. MORRISSEY:
counsel's presentation.
10
THE COURT:
11
MS. SITTON:
Yes.
10:29:35
12
13
14
10:29:24
15
BY MS. SITTON:
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
Can you hear it well enough or do you want to put the head
19
phones on?
20
21
BY MS. SITTON:
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
What?
25
A.
Abu Bakr.
10:30:40
10:30:49
10:31:03
Q.
A.
Q.
Sure.
228
BY MS. SITTON:
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
No, he's --
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
10:31:27
10:31:32
Not he is currently.
Maybe if you
10:31:44
19
BY MS. SITTON:
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
Abu Bakr time, Abu Bakr would have been our caliph?
10:33:22
10:33:40
229
A.
Yes.
Q.
And then he just said, and if Abu Bakr give you an order to
A.
Sound right?
Yes.
10:34:08
BY MS. SITTON:
Q.
sound right?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
about Islam.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
or more, right?
17
Q.
Right.
18
A.
Tapes.
19
Q.
Does that
Sound right?
We talk a lot more like he mentioned that there was 300 CDs
20
10:34:21
21
A.
Yeah.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Yes.
10:34:52
10:35:09
Q.
A.
What's churches?
Q.
Church.
A.
Oh, yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
THE COURT:
11
12
13
THE WITNESS:
10:35:28
Objection, relevance.
10:35:51
No.
14
BY MS. SITTON:
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
cross?
20
A.
21
Q.
I'm sorry?
22
A.
10:36:06
23
MR. MORRISSEY:
24
25
230
THE COURT:
10:36:39
the bathroom?
231
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
BY MS. SITTON:
Q.
A.
I don't know.
Q.
10
Sure.
10:37:12
the cross?
11
MR. MORRISSEY:
12
THE COURT:
10:37:28
So I'm
13
So overruled.
14
15
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
16
Q.
17
10:37:41
18
MR. MORRISSEY:
19
THE COURT:
That -- sustained.
20
BY MS. SITTON:
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Jesus --
25
Q.
10:38:03
You
10:38:16
232
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Q.
off.
10:38:43
MR. MORRISSEY:
MS. SITTON:
Objection, relevance.
10
11
violent.
12
13
10:38:55
THE COURT:
14
BY MS. SITTON:
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
I'm going to --
24
MS. SITTON:
25
THE COURT:
Jesus was
10:39:13
10:39:26
10:39:55
BY MS. SITTON:
Q.
233
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
10
11
MS. SITTON:
MR. MORRISSEY:
13
THE COURT:
14
MS. SITTON:
15
THE COURT:
16
18
19
10:40:34
12
17
10:40:10
No objection.
It's admitted.
Your Honor, may we publish?
You may.
10:40:41
Is it on over there?
THE PARALEGAL:
screen.
20
MS. SITTON:
21
THE COURT:
10:41:09
22
screen.
It's on.
23
BY MS. SITTON:
24
Q.
25
Okay.
234
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Kind of.
Q.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to get that
distance?
A.
I don't know.
Q.
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And I believe you were looking at a clip and you heard, you
10:42:09
10:42:21
10:42:44
10:43:24
10:43:48
235
from Somalia."
A.
Yes.
Q.
What are some of the names of those people that Mr. Simpson
knows?
10:44:01
MR. MORRISSEY:
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
If he knows.
If he knows, do you know?
I forget it now, but if I can see them.
10
BY MS. SITTON:
11
Q.
So one person?
12
A.
13
Q.
Right.
14
A.
15
16
Street.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
A.
19
Q.
So you know who they are, but you don't know their names?
20
A.
21
Q.
Right.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
10:44:12
10:44:32
10:44:48
10:45:05
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
A.
Yes.
Q.
MR. MORRISSEY:
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
236
10:45:37
BY MS. SITTON:
10
Q.
Has
11
12
conversation?
13
A.
14
Q.
I'm sorry?
15
A.
Battlefield.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
You just listened to that, and you didn't hear him say the
19
20
A.
I'm confused.
21
Q.
22
23
that?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
10:50:32
10:50:48
10:51:08
10:51:46
A.
Q.
A.
Jihad is bad.
Q.
8
9
237
Jihad isn't
This is the
10
Q.
That was you saying they were talking about jihad this
11
morning, right?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And you are the first person that actually brings up jihad
14
15
A.
16
Q.
I'm sorry?
17
A.
10:53:04
18
MS. SITTON:
19
THE COURT:
20
THE WITNESS:
21
22
BY MS. SITTON:
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I didn't remember.
Yes.
10:52:53
10:53:12
10:53:43
238
Q.
that?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10:54:25
You
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And you remember that the time that you -- that -- the
12
total amount of time that you were with him was over five
13
hours.
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
right.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
Repeat?
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
10:54:42
10:54:59
10:55:21
10:55:42
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Q.
conversation.
A.
Q.
Okay.
239
10:56:01
10
A.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
right?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
You never spoke with any Somalian about going over and
20
fighting jihad?
21
A.
Repeat?
22
Q.
You didn't ever speak with any person from Somalia about
23
going and you didn't make any plans to go and fight jihad in
24
Somalia?
25
A.
10:56:21
You never went and bought any guns with Mr. Simpson,
Repeat that?
10:56:52
10:57:15
10:57:30
240
Q.
You never made any firm plans to go to Somalia and go and fight
jihad?
A.
Q.
A.
Repeat again.
Q.
A.
No.
10
Q.
Never tried to get out of your lease so that you could get
11
an apartment to go to Somalia?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
14
it, right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
No.
10:57:44
Never bought
10:58:07
10:58:48
10:59:04
241
Q.
-- to actually do that?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
you heard Mr. Simpson talking about you could sell your car and
Repeat again?
11:00:58
10
A.
11
Q.
12
saying you could sell your car and that's a plane ticket right
13
there?
14
A.
15
Q.
But you never sold your car to get a plane ticket out of
16
the country?
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions about the
19
20
21
right?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
And so --
11:01:19
11:01:34
11:02:08
11:02:28
A.
Q.
I'm sorry?
A.
Q.
A.
I didn't.
11:02:34
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
242
redirect.
10
11
perhaps an interpreter?
12
somewhat with the language, with the English language, and with
13
the testimony.
14
11:02:53
MR. MORRISSEY:
15
Court's statement.
16
17
from --
18
THE COURT:
19
MR. MORRISSEY:
20
THE COURT:
21
22
argument later.
23
necessary.
11:03:13
I said
11:03:22
24
MR. MORRISSEY:
25
THE COURT:
That's correct.
All right.
11:03:35
243
15 minutes.
Thank you.
THE COURT:
All right.
Thank you.
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
11:22:17
11:22:27
11
THE COURT:
All right.
12
MR. MORRISSEY:
13
THE COURT:
14
15
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
16
17
18
MS. SITTON:
19
THE COURT:
20
21
MR. MITCHELL:
22
MR. MORRISSEY:
11:22:33
May he be
Yes.
All right.
You are excused, too.
11:22:59
23
24
25
244
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
All right.
Any objection?
It is withdrawn.
10
11
chief.
11:23:59
12
13
14
15
THE COURT:
16
MS. SITTON:
17
THE COURT:
18
MR. MORRISSEY:
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. MORRISSEY:
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. WILLIAMS:
23
11:23:39
All right.
Any objection?
11:24:15
No objection.
All right, it's admitted.
May I approach your clerk?
You may.
Your Honor, the Government rests.
All right.
11:24:32
Mr. Williams?
24
THE COURT:
Proceed.
25
MR. WILLIAMS:
11:24:58
245
in this case.
terrorism.
regards.
defined by statute.
10
11
12
religious nature.
13
that.
14
15
16
17
18
clips, and we would ask the Court to consider not only the
19
20
21
point that a lot of the things that were being discussed were
22
merely just rhetoric and just talk about the issues of Islam.
23
11:25:33
11:26:09
24
25
11:26:31
246
false statement and one that does not include the enhancement.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
11:27:15
And then
And the
17
18
Mr. Simpson.
19
20
21
22
23
24
indictment.
25
11:26:55
11:27:54
11:28:08
247
8
9
11:28:28
He testified
10
that Agent Turner asked him several times whether or not he had
11
12
13
14
11:28:49
15
16
17
said "no."
18
indicated that he did not ask Mr. Simpson whether or not he had
19
20
21
22
11:29:07
11:29:25
23
24
25
others.
11:29:48
248
false statement.
THE COURT:
10
Mr. Morrissey.
11
the recordings?
12
MR. MORRISSEY:
11:30:30
13
And
14
15
2007.
Should I continue?
16
THE COURT:
17
MR. MORRISSEY:
11:30:51
Yes.
Exhibit 2 is May 29th, 2009.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11:31:23
THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you.
Nonetheless, the
11:31:42
249
day.
challenge?
exhibits.
10
admitted.
11
MR. WILLIAMS:
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. WILLIAMS:
14
THE COURT:
11:32:26
I do understand that.
All right.
And I'm sorry.
15
16
17
18
19
respect to those?
20
11:32:06
MR. WILLIAMS:
There is.
21
22
23
recordings.
24
25
11:32:31
11:32:48
11:33:07
250
and the CD itself would put that into context in that in the
four to five hours that Mr. Deng was reporting Mr. Simpson on
two statements.
the battlefield.
8
9
10
11
12
13
are involved with, that the religion that they are -- that he's
14
trying to teach.
15
16
11:33:54
11:34:15
17
18
19
Somalia to engage in jihad, only that there are hours and hours
20
21
22
focus.
23
11:33:35
THE COURT:
11:34:35
24
25
11:34:51
251
Is there
MR. WILLIAMS:
To the statements?
THE COURT:
The recordings.
10
11
12
13
14
MR. WILLIAMS:
16
17
for trail and did not sit down and try to review the tape
18
19
can only simply say that we cannot stipulate either way whether
20
11:35:33
15
21
11:35:08
11:35:51
We
So --
11:36:16
22
23
24
25
And I just
11:36:33
252
MR. WILLIAMS:
THE COURT:
MR. WILLIAMS:
All right.
Thank you.
establish that.
11:36:42
We
10
11
THE COURT:
12
Mr. Morrissey?
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
11:37:06
Thank you.
14
15
that when the FBI went to talk to Mr. Simpson on January 7th,
16
17
18
19
to Somalia.
20
11:37:31
21
22
Turner.
23
24
Both of them testified that Mr. Simpson was, in their mind, not
25
11:37:58
11:38:30
253
Somalia."
10
The
11
13
false statement.
14
false.
15
16
overseas.
17
18
other people.
20
21
11:39:08
12
19
11:38:43
THE COURT:
the testimony.
MR. MORRISSEY:
11:39:51
22
23
24
testimony.
25
11:40:11
254
1
2
ahead.
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
on the recordings.
10
11
denied that to the FBI agents, that that was a false statement.
12
The second --
13
THE COURT:
14
15
The false
17
18
in the Indictment.
20
21
That's within
to Somalia.
23
25
11:41:21
22
24
11:40:58
16
19
11:40:40
11:41:37
11:41:54
255
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
My recollection --
I might be --
MR. MORRISSEY:
But
11:42:11
THE COURT:
10
11
12
MR. MORRISSEY:
14
Right.
16
17
18
Somalia.
19
MR. MORRISSEY:
I guess not.
11:42:49
I don't really
20
21
testified.
22
23
24
25
11:42:32
13
15
Mr. Deng,
Mr. Deng
11:43:07
THE COURT:
And
11:43:28
256
that correct?
And I
11:43:55
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
11
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
14
THE COURT:
15
16
though, to see whether or not I'm right on that with Mr. Deng
17
18
19
Right.
I'm sorry.
I understand that.
MR. MORRISSEY:
21
22
THE COURT:
23
MR. MORRISSEY:
24
THE COURT:
11:44:25
20
25
11:44:14
Okay.
11:44:40
Sure.
11:44:56
257
4
5
6
MR. MORRISSEY:
So is it your
I -- if I can look at
my trial memorandum.
11:45:21
It is my contention that in
resolving this case, the Court should follow the Ninth Circuit
well, which says that the defendant must act willfully, that is
10
11
12
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
I would also note that the materiality
15
element, that the hard copy book of the 2003 jury instructions
16
is out of date, and that the current one is only on the Ninth
17
18
it's Peterson that says that it's not plain error to use the
19
20
21
22
23
11:46:18
11:46:37
11:47:02
24
for materiality and that we should not use the Ninth Circuit
25
11:47:25
258
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
11:47:55
11:48:22
We can make it
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
On June --
25
THE COURT:
11:49:11
11:49:33
259
MR. MORRISSEY:
and Yahya were talking about him going to South Africa and
brothers.
jihad.
9
10
11:50:10
11
11:50:34
12
13
initially.
14
15
16
Somalia.
17
18
or 101, shows that the way to get to Somalia from South Africa
19
20
11:51:02
21
22
23
24
Sabari.
25
11:51:23
260
1
2
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
undisputed that the FBI was investigating Mr. Simpson and his
I think that
10
11
12
Government.
13
11:52:31
14
15
16
17
11:52:09
11:52:51
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
11:53:10
11:53:29
261
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
No.
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
11:53:44
simply free speech, that they were having discussions, that the
10
11
MR. MORRISSEY:
11:54:05
12
13
that this was -- it's fine to talk about support for jihad.
14
15
16
11:54:35
17
Mr. Williams argues that the Government has not put in proof of
18
willfulness.
19
recordings themselves, this Court knows that this was the most
20
21
22
heaven.
23
24
America?
25
This, by the
As he says in one of
11:54:55
It's
Can we do that in
11:55:13
262
going out.
2
3
4
and he said he did not want to talk about Abu Jihaad they
about that.
10
This Court also knows from the November 7th tape where
11
they talk about -- the group talks about what we would say if
12
13
14
15
16
these questions?
17
11:55:51
11:56:12
18
19
20
21
11:55:35
11:56:29
22
the evidence that Mr. Simpson knew that he didn't have to talk
23
24
25
statement.
11:56:55
263
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MR. WILLIAMS:
No.
Mr. Williams?
That is part of the problem that we had
and taken them out of context and given them the definition
10
11
12
13
14
the Government.
15
16
is a good one.
17
11:57:09
11:57:29
Obstruction
18
a martyr and the only way that he could get to jannah would be
19
20
21
Islam worked and how someone could get to heaven, certainly not
22
the only way and certainly not any way that Mr. Simpson
23
24
25
11:58:08
It is just merely
11:58:34
264
9
10
THE COURT:
11:59:13
13
MR. WILLIAMS:
14
THE COURT:
15
11
12
Thank you.
All right.
16
11:58:54
11:59:32
17
18
both sides.
19
20
lunch hour.
21
much.
11:59:49
We will be in recess.
22
23
THE COURT:
Thank you.
The record
24
25
13:47:17
265
lunch you had -- the Government rested and you indicated that
MR. WILLIAMS:
THE COURT:
8
9
10
Is there anything?
No, Your Honor.
All right.
time?
MR. WILLIAMS:
THE COURT:
We do.
11
12
closing arguments.
13:47:49
Mr. Morrissey.
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
14
15
2007 that if he chose not to speak to the FBI, that they would
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
international terrorism.
25
13:47:39
13:48:15
13:48:41
13:49:03
266
into whether or not Mr. Simpson and his associates was going to
Somalia.
that.
10
That is in Exhibit 1.
11
heard from the defense in the argument for the motion for
12
13
14
13:50:00
15
16
recordings was taken out of context and did not say what they
17
plainly said.
18
13:49:33
13:50:25
19
20
21
22
23
13:50:46
That is what is on
24
25
MR. MORRISSEY:
13:51:44
267
brother.
conversation.
fighting.
13:52:00
10
11
12
13:52:21
13
14
15
16
17
MR. MORRISSEY:
13:52:38
18
19
20
21
may not have been practical, it may not have been the best
22
23
It
13:55:09
24
25
MR. MORRISSEY:
We can
13:55:43
268
battlefield.
3
4
travel to Somalia.
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
That is the
13:56:20
Because, and
13
14
Government's argument.
11
12
MR. MORRISSEY:
15
THE COURT:
16
MR. MORRISSEY:
Correct.
Okay.
13:56:33
17
18
19
20
Now --
21
THE COURT:
22
13:56:00
9
10
7
8
5
6
13:57:01
I understand that.
23
MR. MORRISSEY:
Go ahead.
24
25
Somalia.
13:57:22
269
Somalia.
Somalia.
10
11
12
14
then to Somalia.
15
THE COURT:
Is
17
18
19
20
21
13:58:02
13
16
13:57:41
MR. MORRISSEY:
13:58:40
22
23
terrorism.
24
25
It
This also
13:58:58
270
international terrorism.
conversation.
8
9
10
THE COURT:
Okay.
13:59:20
11
MR. MORRISSEY:
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. MORRISSEY:
13:59:35
No.
Okay.
No.
All right.
Proceed.
16
17
18
19
20
about fighting.
13:59:45
He also speaks
14:00:15
21
The Indictment --
22
THE COURT:
23
MR. MORRISSEY:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
All right.
14:00:22
271
contexts.
of the five exhibits, and the Court will never find an instance
himself.
violent context.
8
9
Now, what steps did Mr. Simpson take to put any such
plan into effect?
10
11
12
13
14:01:10
14
jihad.
15
16
17
18
Somalia from there, and then when he is asked about the FBI --
19
20
21
22
14:00:44
And he can talk about his views that sharia law should
14:01:38
14:02:06
23
There's no
24
25
As I
14:02:31
272
Mr. Deng, tells Mr. Deng who else he had talked about going to
Somalia with.
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
11
12
13
14
15
THE COURT:
14:02:56
14:04:52
And this is
And for context -You said this Exhibit 4, what date does
16
17
United States means to him and means to Mr. Deng, who's playing
18
his role as a person for the FBI learning from Mr. Simpson and
19
20
14:05:05
21
22
MR. MORRISSEY:
14:05:29
23
24
25
And it's
14:06:04
273
is what he is discussing.
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
11
12
13
was actually his plan and, of course, shows why this was a
14
15
16
14:07:11
14:07:39
But there is
14:08:06
17
discussion with Mr. Deng and in the presence of Mr. Yong, there
18
19
and fighting.
20
front.
21
School is a front.
He says it twice.
14:08:37
22
South Africa.
And if I am given an
23
24
25
leave.
14:09:03
274
to roll.
8
9
14:09:22
He would
10
11
12
13
His
14
15
Your Honor.
16
terrorism.
17
18
19
20
21
14:09:50
14:10:13
But
Get to
That's what
14:10:36
22
2009.
23
are in evidence.
24
25
14:11:02
275
1
2
3
4
tapes.
Agent Hebert testified that he had listened to the
tapes and it is Mr. Simpson's voice on those tapes.
Mr. Simpson's own words are proof of what he had
discussed.
10
11
13
14
15
traveling to Somalia.
That statement was material to the FBI.
14:12:14
It not only
17
18
19
20
21
22
14:11:48
12
16
14:11:21
They were
14:12:40
23
24
25
14:12:59
276
1
2
3
get to Somalia.
And when Mr. Simpson lied about that statement, that statement
10
11
international terrorism.
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. MORRISSEY:
14
THE COURT:
Yes.
someone who you submit not only was under investigation for
16
14:14:13
18
clarification?
19
20
21
and proof.
22
should find Mr. Simpson guilty not only of false statement, but
23
24
25
14:13:52
Mr. Morrissey?
15
17
14:13:26
14:14:44
THE COURT:
Okay.
I appreciate that.
14:15:05
277
that.
no-fly list?
14:15:30
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
Yes.
And here's --
10
MR. MORRISSEY:
Absolutely.
11
12
Agent Turner was asked what the criteria was to get placed on
13
14
objection.
15
16
17
18
14:15:50
19
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
14:16:14
14:16:33
22
23
to aviation itself.
24
25
278
1
2
very bad to that airplane, you don't get on the no-fly list.
10
11
12
international terrorism.
13
THE COURT:
14:17:16
So there
14
you sit down in your closing statement here, you have charged
15
16
17
14:17:39
MR. MORRISSEY:
14:17:59
Why
18
19
20
21
international terrorism.
22
23
24
25
14:18:22
It goes to 2332.
And so
No.
I
14:18:53
279
terrorism.
6
7
THE COURT:
Do you know?
I mean,
8
9
14:19:15
MR. MORRISSEY:
Let
10
11
12
Yes.
13
14
15
that you would find Mr. Simpson guilty of false statement, just
16
17
Is
If this Court found that the statement was false and met
THE COURT:
19
20
MR. MORRISSEY:
21
THE COURT:
14:19:55
If it's an
18
22
14:19:29
Yes.
14:20:12
as opposed to --
23
MR. MORRISSEY:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. MORRISSEY:
14:20:20
280
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
4
5
that.
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
10
11
12
13
14
15
14:20:57
16
17
Court would not have to find that the Government had shown
18
19
what his mode of entry into the country was, and that by lying,
20
21
THE COURT:
14:20:26
All right.
14:21:20
The
14:21:44
22
23
24
25
14:22:07
281
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
Yes.
All right.
14:22:29
10
or kidnapping.
11
12
13
14
It goes on.
15
16
17
14:22:48
14:23:18
18
19
memorandums very -- both of them were very thin from each side
20
21
22
Ninth Circuit.
23
Ninth Circuit.
24
25
14:23:37
14:23:51
282
Circuit, or elsewhere.
MR. MORRISSEY:
there is.
8
9
10
Court, because I think the Court's going to start and stay with
11
the statute and its words and its meaning and its legislative
12
history.
13
of first impression.
14
15
16
THE COURT:
All right.
Sure.
14:24:41
18
Mr. Simpson had plans that involved violent acts that are a
19
20
21
22
23
25
14:24:28
17
24
14:24:06
THE COURT:
That is,
14:25:07
I mean, we
14:25:36
283
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
-- for -- for the Court to ask me to
6
7
THE COURT:
14:25:48
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
10
I do think it is.
All right.
MR. MORRISSEY:
Go ahead.
11
12
support.
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Federal Government.
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to the present.
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violent acts.
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That's
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THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
Government's argument.
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
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Yes.
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says:
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Yes.
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No.
They only fight you when
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to them.
connection.
That is the
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THE COURT:
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According to --
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
preceding it.
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lines that Mr. Simpson says, "I'm telling you, man, we are
about Somalia.
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very confident that the Court will find that the context is as
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laid out.
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THE COURT:
And I'm
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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coercion?
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MR. MORRISSEY:
response to that.
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THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
14:32:46
terms --
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
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rephrase it.
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just -- you say that with such confidence that I don't think
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other.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
14:32:57
I'm
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what I was trying to say was, I believe that the May 29th,
288
If the Court
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Absolutely.
14:34:01
it's very clear from context, that when Mr. Simpson talks about
going to South Africa and then making his way to Somalia, and
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Going on missions.
And Mr. Deng and Mr. Simpson talk about, well, if your
14
intention is clear, then it's okay that that's far away, that
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is supporting evidence.
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third.
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THE COURT:
All right.
14:35:05
Mr. Morrissey.
MS. SITTON:
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and --
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THE COURT:
which agent?
MS. SITTON:
THE COURT:
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MS. SITTON:
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informant.
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him.
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questions.
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And the FBI is using Mr. Deng and his summaries of the
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14:37:01
That's
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he was doing well or not, that was how much -- that was what he
money.
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14:37:49
And
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gone over this, Mr. Williams went over it in the Rule 29.
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is the question?
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question is.
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14:38:15
And we've
What
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stand yesterday.
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recorded 330 body wires between Mr. Deng and Mr. Simpson.
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what the agents said, and they can't even agree on what they
25
asked.
But
We just have
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Somalia, repeatedly.
Somalia.
Somalia.
Twice?
Was it knowing?
That's it.
10
willful?
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detention hearing.
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He misspoke at the
Why is he
14:41:01
Why is that?
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conversation and told him what the name of the school was in
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remembered.
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Why
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conversation.
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Mr. Simpson
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admitted that.
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him.
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Agent Hebert
They don't tell him why they were there like they did the
They just
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they put forth an elaborate ruse, $10,000, Mr. Deng won $10,000
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in a lottery.
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14:42:08
He said:
14:43:14
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Indictment.
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But it doesn't.
He admitted it himself.
It
14:44:51
There's violence
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crucifixion of Jesus.
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Mr. Deng
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terrorism.
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14:44:30
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ridiculous.
It's absolutely
talks a lot.
to Kabob Palace.
Mr. Simpson
He watches
They go
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false statement.
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Somalia.
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to go is Palestine.
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Palestine?
19
And in
14:46:57
No.
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reason?
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the snippet.
23
that's what they are assuming that that's what it's about.
25
14:46:35
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14:45:54
Oh, to do jihad.
14:47:21
It's not in
14:47:42
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of Somalians.
No.
Why?
No.
We know lots
Who knows.
He also said that Mr. Simpson said that Mr. Deng could
No.
No.
No.
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14:48:32
Does
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No.
No.
Here, he's
14:49:15
Is there
Is there a war
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There are wars being fought, but they are not literal
wars.
against people who are afraid of Muslims when they are praying
in the airport.
about fighting.
10
It's rhetorical.
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12
noninnocent way.
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him?
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Did you hear one clip where he asked about where he said the
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about the violence that went up to and that still exists in the
Muslim religion.
blood, violence.
It's a struggle.
And they
He's talking
Jihad is a struggle.
10
talking about the caliphate, you hear him talking about Abu
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we couldn't listen.
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tape says.
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Then
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if you go to Somalia?
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What if?
Their question
What
298
go home tonight?
That
anywhere.
What
Getting a visa to go
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We don't
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evidence.
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We have to have
They don't
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material support.
25
299
false statement, and they don't have enough to prove that the
or international terrorism.
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
Thank you.
violence.
10
Court if the Court plays the June 17th, 2009 tape at 17:03
11
where Mr. Simpson says that he sent Yahya, he sent John Sabari
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And
300
a minute.
outside.
Well, wait
Allah, says:
what I mean.
You know
10
twice and she references the May 29th and the October 23rd
11
conversation.
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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That's in 2007?
Correct, that's the July 31st, 2007
conversation.
THE COURT:
opposed to two?
MR. MORRISSEY:
Yes.
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THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
All right.
say "jihad"?
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2009.
MR. MORRISSEY:
Oh, my gosh.
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MS. SITTON:
The
And if there
That's burden
shifting.
MR. MORRISSEY:
rephrase it.
THE COURT:
the Government, you would have pointed it out in those other -MR. MORRISSEY:
22
exhibits is in evidence.
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302
that Mr. Simpson had spoken very close in time to January 7th,
when he was asked about that by the FBI, that he made a false
THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
the false statement was January 7th, 2010, and whether or not
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300 tapes.
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If that --
THE COURT:
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discussions.
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taped conversations.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
Yes.
All right.
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reference to the Court the discussions that you think are the
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MR. MORRISSEY:
24
THE COURT:
25
That is correct.
All right.
303
MR. MORRISSEY:
It's easy.
There is no inconsistency.
testimony.
he said no.
jury.
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13
answer.
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On
Both
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answer directly.
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given.
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Mr. Simpson:
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There is no inconsistency.
THE COURT:
inconsistency.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
13
THE COURT:
Yes.
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travel to Somalia.
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grand jury.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
25
Because
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That he specifically
jury.
I do.
THE COURT:
Yes.
305
MR. MORRISSEY:
"QUESTION:
traveling to Somalia?"
"He was."
10
THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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"He was.
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"ANSWER:"
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to Somalia?"
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jury.
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He asked "yes" or
If
306
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3
THE COURT:
jury, too.
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
Yes.
All right.
based on what was submitted, it appears the only time when the
MR. MORRISSEY:
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11
THE COURT:
No.
12
MR. MORRISSEY:
13
trial that the "yes" or "no" question was not asked in compound
14
fashion.
15
THE COURT:
Okay.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
17
THE COURT:
So he --
Can I --
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And that was more close in time to when he would have asked the
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MR. MORRISSEY:
24
THE COURT:
25
Sure.
Sure.
He was asked -- he
All right.
Chronologically, yes.
Okay.
307
previous times?
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MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
Please respond.
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way undermined.
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THE COURT:
14
Agent Turner, a
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MR. MORRISSEY:
16
THE COURT:
No.
Okay.
No.
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ahead.
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So
But go
Please proceed.
MR. MORRISSEY:
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He said, yes,
He spoke about
308
response to a question:
fashion.
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THE COURT:
compound.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
11
THE COURT:
Well --
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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THE COURT:
And the
All right.
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travels to Somalia.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
No, no.
309
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question.
THE COURT:
Correct.
All right.
MR. MORRISSEY:
a lack of clarity.
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
12
testify, he told --
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
15
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When?
Today in -- not today, yesterday in
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THE COURT:
Yes.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
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understand I may not have spoken properly at the grand jury and
25
And that's
310
That is
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it.
13
And
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it was asked.
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asked.
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
So
Okay.
311
1
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because that's part of what that trial was about, to test Agent
THE COURT:
All right.
You said
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very helpful if you can shed light for me on what your position
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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Court's questions.
312
THE COURT:
All right.
that, let me just ask you this question, and that is:
was the compound question that was asked, does that affect your
case?
MR. MORRISSEY:
If it
only said no, when asked have you discussed traveling to or are
the testimony of Agent Hebert and Agent Turner, that that was
the only way the question was asked and a responsive no answer
10
was given, you would still not find that the Indictment was
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THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
The argument --
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THE COURT:
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willful?
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did.
was previously.
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
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intent.
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THE COURT:
Right.
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MR. MORRISSEY:
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heaven.
19
about.
THE COURT:
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MR. MORRISSEY:
23
This was
It is all he talked
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314
Mr. Simpson.
two factors.
didn't have to talk to them and he would -- and that they would
go away.
10
decision.
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13
it right back at them and ask them, ask the authorities why
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THE COURT:
19
evidence you base your assertion is that that's why the Court
20
21
didn't mis- --
22
MR. MORRISSEY:
23
24
of travel to Somalia.
25
once.
He only answered
315
He said:
that the FBI indicated to him that they knew from others that
8
9
I don't know
10
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That is
13
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statute.
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can't take that money, and that he -- and the Government would
18
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that money.
21
factually in error.
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THE COURT:
25
On the factual -- on
316
money?
3
4
MR. MORRISSEY:
questions of that --
THE COURT:
Oh, okay.
MR. MORRISSEY:
Mr. Deng.
that they are -- and you can play all of it, you can play more
10
11
find is the discussion was Mr. Deng could not use that money,
12
13
determination.
14
THE COURT:
15
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MR. MORRISSEY:
My
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THE COURT:
It
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indeed, you know, try to get him to take this money so that he
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MR. MORRISSEY:
He didn't bite.
317
Mr. Deng was also that in fact Mr. Simpson did want some of
that money.
control.
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
10
THE COURT:
Please.
11
MR. MORRISSEY:
12
South Africa.
13
He had a visa.
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So he didn't -- he
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brothers.
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support.
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He's charged
318
If the Court
reviews the November 7th, 2009 tape, Mr. Yong is talking about
how he will say that his friend won the lottery when they are
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talk.
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THE COURT:
And
If
20
Mr. Simpson had been asked -- I'm just curious what your
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had ever talked about violent jihad with his friends, and he
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MR. MORRISSEY:
319
And he
10
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been charged.
13
Could that
And I would note that Mr. Simpson lied more than once
14
in that interview when he's assuring the FBI that, oh, don't
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He was not truthful with the FBI about whether or not they
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THE COURT:
25
MR. MORRISSEY:
Okay.
Thank you.
320
THE COURT:
worthwhile or not.
looked into this area of the law involving the -- what's been
any other guidance out there for the Court case wise to shed
light on how other courts have interpreted that term and the
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MR. MORRISSEY:
13
looking.
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THE COURT:
MR. MORRISSEY:
20
THE COURT:
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I'm going to
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But if the
Okay.
days?
MR. MORRISSEY:
321
sounding like I'm telling the Court how to act like a trier of
fact, I would only point out that within a week, the transcript
THE COURT:
Thank you.
10
circumstance.
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MR. WILLIAMS:
13
THE COURT:
No?
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C E R T I F I C A T E
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Arizona.
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S/Merilyn A. Sanchez
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