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I WAS INFORMED THAT A HINDU BROTHER HAS MADE SEVERAL OBJECTIONS ON THE
UNCREATEDNESS OF QURAN. I WAS ASKED TO MAKE A THOROUGH REFUTATION OF
HIS BASIC ARGUMENTS.
THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED TO READ HIS OBJECTIONS ARE REQUESTED TO VISIT
THE PAGE:=
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-2
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-3
OBJECTION#2:=
Is this tantamount to saying that Quran, Allah's words, are not eternal? If the Quran is not eternal, it is not the
truth - for truth has necessarily to be eternal.
ANSWER:=
1]IF VEDAS ARE NOT ETERNAL THEN ACCORDING TO THE OBJECTIONAL MAKER THEY MUST NOT BE
TRUE.
A NUMBER OF HINDUS BELIEVE THAT VEDAS ARE TEMPPORAL [ NOT ETERNAL]
BUT IS GITA ETERNAL . IF NOT THEN IT IS NOT TRUTH. THE SAME QUESTION IS ABOUT MAHA
BAHRATA MANU ETC.
ANY HOW THE CLAIM THAT FOR TRUTH IST IS NECESSARY TO BE ETERNAL IS FALSE AND A
FALSE DOGMA.
WHAT ABOUT THE HUMAN BODY OF KRISHNA . IS IT ETERRNAL OR NOT.
2] IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A THING TO BE TRUTH, THAT IT MUST BE ETERNAL.
ETERNITY IS JUST THE SUFFICIENT CONDITION FOR A THING TO BE TRUTH , NOT
NECESSARY.SO THIS OBJECTION IS IN CORRECT.
OBJ3ECTION#3:=
If the Quran is Allah's words and Allah is eternal, then His words are eternal. It makes absolutely no sense to
draw a distinction between God and God's words. The same can be said for God and God's thoughts. Are
God's thoughts not eternal because that would violate the "only God is eternal" axiom? Of course
not. You cannot separate these two things in the same way that you cannot separate God from His power.
ANSWER:=
1]IT MAY NOT MAKE ANY SENCE TO SOME PERSONS BUT IT DOES ABSOLUTELY MAKE SENSE TO US:
IF THOUGHTS OF DEITY ARE ATTRIBUTE OF DEITY THEN THIS IMPLIETH NECESSARILY THAT
THOUGHT OF DEITY IS NOT THE DEITY [THOUGHT IS NOT IDENTICAL TO THE DIVINE ESSECE.]
SAME IOS TRUE FOR OTHER DIVINE ATTRIBUTES.
TO CLAIM THAT IT DOETH NOT MAKE ANY SENSE IS FALSE.
A BETTER CLAIM WOULD HAVE BEEN THAT IT IS THE SENSE OF CONTRADICTION , RAITHER THAT IT
IS WITH OUT SENSE..MUTIZILAH HAVE MADE THIS CLAIM THAT THERE IS A CONTRADICTION OR A
CONTRADICTION IS IMPLIED . BUT NO CONVINCING PROOF HAS BEEN PRESENTED SO FAR.
IT IS A PROOFLESS DOGMA THAT IT MAKETH NO SENSE AT ALL.
THE SENSE IS CLEAR . EACH DIVINE ATTRIBUTE IS ETERNAL AND NO DIVINE ATTRIBUTE IS
IDENTICAL TO THE DIVINE ESSENCE [ I.E DEITY]. EACH DIVINE ATTRIBUTE DOETH SUBSIST IN DIVINE
ESSENCE. TO THE CLAIM THAT IT ABSOLUTELY DOETH NOT MAKE ANY SENSE IS FALSE AND
UNTRUE. AT MOST IT CAN BE CLAIMED THAT THIS CLAIM IS EITHER A CONTRADICTION OR IT SOME
HOW IMPLIETH A CONTRADICTION. BUT THIS REQUIRETH A PROOF. WE ASK FOR A PROOF.
BUT THERE IS NO PROOF AT ALL FOR THE CLAIM ABOVE. ALL THE POSSIBILE ASPECTS AND WAYS
OF THE ALLEGED PROOFS HAVE BEEN STUDIED.SO THIS IS A FALLACY. DIVINE POWER MAKETH NO
EXCEPTION. ALSO NEITHER SEPARATE NOR IDENTICAL IS NOT SEPARATE, LAW OF EXCLUSION OF
MIDDLE IS NOT APPLICABLE IN THIS REGARD.
A GENERAL DISCUSSION:-
IT IS REQUIRED TO SHEW THAT THIS DOES MAKE APERFECT SENSE SO THAT ONE
MAY SEE THAT THE CLAIM THAT IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MAKE A SENSE IS
FALSIFIED.
A DISCUSSION ON THE AXIOM:=
IF A STATEMENT IS AN AXIOM THEN EITHER IT IS AN INDEPENDENT AXIOM OR NOT.
IF IT IS NOT THEN ACTUALLY IT IS A THEOREM WHICH IS POVEABLE BUT , IT IS
TAKEN WITH OUT ANY PROOF. IF IT IS AN INDIPENDANT AXIOM THEN IT IS
IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE IT IN THE SYSTEM . WE SHALL USE THE WORD AXIOM AND
ITS DERIVATIONS IN THE SENSE OF INDEPENDENT ONE FROM NOW ON.
OBJECTION #4:=
Allah created by willing creation into existence. Since Allah is eternal, his power to will would also be
eternal. So what He has willed once he can always will again. Quran accepts this when it says that though
you and I would die, Allah would will us back to life on the day of judgement - and then we would live
forever, either in heaven or hell. Therefore if Allah is eternal, his creation is also eternal. Allah and his
creation are one and the same. This notion of separateness (maya in Hindu parlance) exists as a part of
Allahs celebration of Himself (leela in Hindu parlance).
ANSWER:=
THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE AND ABSURD.
SINCE DEITY ALL-H IS NOT A CREATION. DEITY IS ETERNAL AND CREATION IS NOT ETERNAL.
ETERNAL AND NON ETERNAL CANNOT BE SAME SINCE IT IS NOTHING BUT CREATION IS NOT A CREATION.
DEITY IS NOT A CREATION , AND A CREATION IS NOT A DEITY.
EVEN ARYA SAMAJIS ALSO AGREE ON THIS POINE. SO THE OBJECTION MAKER IS A PANTHEIST. NO THING NEW,
HE REPEATS AN OLD ARGUMENT.
IF DIVINE CREATIONS ARE ETERNAL THEN THEY ARE NOT CREATIONS. THE BASIC AXIOMS ARE AS FOLLOW:=
1] GOD\DEITY IS NOT A CREATION.
2] DEITY IS ETERNAL
3] CREATION IS NOT ETERNAL.
4] CREATION IS NOT DEITY/GOD.
SO THIS CLAIM REDUSES TO THE CLAIM EVERY THING IS DEITY . THERE IS NO CREATION
WHY TO CALL A THING A CREATION IF IT IS ETERNAL.
THUS EVERY THING REDUCES TO THE BELIEVE :=
EVERY THING THAT DOES EXIST IS GOD .
THIS IMPLIES ONLY ETERNAL GODS EXIST AND ONE THAT IS NOT ETERNAL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO EXIST AT WORST OR
DOETH NOT EXIST AT BEST.
NOT EVEN ALL HINDU SECTS AGREE WITH SUCH A BELIEVE AND THIS IS A BELIEVE OF JUST A MINORITY OF
HINDUS [ONE LIKE THE OBJECTION MAKER] REJECTED BY A GREAT MAJORITY OF HINDU CULTS AND SECTS.
OBJECTION#5:=
This conundrum would not arise in Hinduism because of its vision of the creator and created being one in essence.
ANSWER:=
THIS CONUNDRUM IS INVALID:=
QURAN IS ETERNAL JUST LIKE OTHER ATTRIBUTES OF DEITY LIKE OMNIPOTENCE , OMNISCIENCE ETC.
THE OBJECTION THAT QURAN IS COMPOSITE REQUIRETH SOME DETAILS. THAT SHALL BE GIVEN SHORTLY.
LET THE OBJECTION OF TWO DEITES [ TWO ALL-H s , AL AYAZ BILLAHI TAALA] IS DISCUSSED PRIOR TO IT.
THE OBJECTION SEEMS TO BE AS FALLOW:=
IF QURAN IS ETERNAL AND NOT IDENTICAL TO THE ESSENCE OF DEITY THEN IT IS A DEITY.
THUS THE NUMBER OF DEITIES BECOMETH TWO.
IT MUST BE NOTED THAT QURAN IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF DEITY. A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE DOETH SUBSIST NECESSARILY IN THE DIVINE
ESSENCE.
DIVINE ESSENCE [ I.E DEITY ] IS PER SE SUBSISTENT AND A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE IS NOT PER SE SUBSISTENT BUT IT SUBSISTETH IN
DIVINE ESSENCE. ONLY DIVINE ESSENCE IS DEITY. SO PLURALITY OF DETIES IS NOT IMPLIED.
THE AXIOM THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL IS FALSE. IT IS REPLACED BY THE AXIOM THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE ETERNAL
ESSENCE. REASON CITED:=
IT APPEARETH THAT THE NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT CONDITION ACCORDING TO THE OBJECTION MAKER IS TO BE A DEITY
\DEUS\THEOS IS .TO BE ETERNAL. BUT THIS IS A FALSE CLAIM.
[ MONO- ETERNALISM IS DIFFERENT FROM MONOTHEISM]
COUNTER ANSWER:=
This conundrum consists of five statements. If this conundrum is not valid
on Hinduism just because some Hindu sects [Not
All] believe that God and His Creations Are One In Essence then this
means that If God [Barmh\Brahman] and His
Creations are One In Essence then Each one of the statements of
Conundrum is invalid in the said case.
Is the Qur'an eternal or created?......[Part One Of Conundrum].............P-1
If the Qur'an is created, then it is subject to corruption just like all of creation.---[Part Two Of The Conundrum]
-------------P-2
But if a thing [say or thing] and God are One In Essence then the
Conundrum is Invalid for the thing regardless of the
case whether is Created or Uncreated
BS-1
If ALL VEDAS ARE CREATIONS [S-2] THEN EACH ONE OF THE FOUR VEDAS IS
A CREATION.
But according to the Objection Maker this Conundrum is invalid in the Case
God and His Creationsare One In Essence,[ Refer Basic
Supposition.BS-1]
This Means The Statement #1 is invalid in the if Each One Of The Four
Vedas Is A Creation, as according to the Objection Maker,
Just Because Creation Of God [Bramh or Brahman] are One in Essence.
If statement #1 is invalid for four Vedas in the case stated above under the
Supposition Vedas are Creations then it is implied
that :=
If Each One Of The Four Vedas Is A Creation, and If All Vedas and God are
One In Essence then Each One Of The Four Vedas Is
Not Subject To Corruption. [This is result one] .R-1
Thus S-1 IMPLIES R-1 according to the believes of the Objection Maker .
[Under the given SuppositionsConditions etc.]
LET IT BE SUPPOSED THAT EACH ONE OF THE FOUR VEDAS ARE
ETERNAL.S-2
Then according to the views of the Respectable Objection Maker [ SEE C- Of
The Conundrum] :=
Each One Of The Veda is Either God / Bramh or No Veda is God/Bramh.
LET IT BE SUPPOSED THAT EACH ONE OF THE VEDAS IS GOD.
.C-2
If Each One Of The Veda is Composite then God Brahmh /Brahman is
Composite.
But the P-4 of Conundrum is Invalid because according to the Objection
Maker Vedas and God are One In Essence.
If Each One Of The Four Vedas Is Composite and If Each One Of The Four
Vedas Is God namely Barmh or Brahman Then God
Brahman / Barmh is Not Composite.R-2.
Since each One Of The Four Vedas and God are One In Essence .
Thus S-2 IMPLIES R-2. [UNDER THE CONDITION GOD AND HIS CREATIONS
ARE ONE IN ESSENCE and EACH ONE OF THE VEDAS IS
GOD]
P-4 Of the Corundrum Is Invalid In The Case.
LET IS BE SUPPOSED THAT NO VEDA IS GODC-3
If None Of The Four Vedas Is God Barmh /Brahman then under S-2 and P-5
there are five Gods [ Brahmans or Barmhs].
Each One Of The Four Veda is a God and God , thus Five Gods /Brahmans/
Barmh.
But once again the Conundrum is invalid just because Each One Of The Four
Vedas and God are One In Essence as according to
Respected Objection Maker.
Thus If Each Veda Is Eternal and No Veda Is God Then There is One God
Barmh/Brahman, Since Each Vedas and God are One
In Essence.R-3.
Thus C-3,S-2,P-5 Implies R-3
In All of These Discussion an Independent Axiom Is Used Which is Stated As
Follow:=
IF A THING AND GOD ARE ONE IN ESSENCE , NO STATEMENT OF THE
CONUNDRUM IS VALID REGARDLESS OF THE CASES WHETHER
THE THING IS CREATED OR ETERNAL.
NOTE : For the sake of brevity we the case that some Vedas are creations
and some Vedas are Eternal is not discussed.It can
be shewn that in this case the Conundrum is Invalid for those Vedas which
are Eternal and for those Vedas which are
Creations.
It is left as an Exercise for those readers and studiers who are interested do
so.
GENERAL DISCUSSION ON THE CONUNDRUM ACCORDING TO THE STANDARD
OF OBJECTION MAKER.
There are Four Types Of Things:1] God.
2] Attributes Of God
10
Invalid Since :=
Attributes Of God ,Acts Of God and God All Are One In Essence.
HINDU SECTS AND CULTS:=
There are several Hindu sects and cults and the do differ about the Eternity of Vedas, Oness Of Essnce God
and His Creations etc. So Not All Hindus Agrree with the objection makers.
Some Muslims How Ever Believe That God and Creations are One In Esse.
If the Objection /Conundrum becomes invalid if God and Creations are Supposed to be One In Essence, It Is
Absolutely Logical that the Objection /Conundrum becomes Invalid if God and His Creations Are One In
Esse.
Some Muslims believe that God is the Essence of all of His Creations, Attributes, Acts Since:=
[In these cases such conundrums do become become invalid. ]
11
12
I understand, it just doesn't sit well in my brain, when I imagine an eternal text i.e. one that existed
before man existed and will do after he is gone, I see it as being a sort of timeless narrative or set of teachings,
whereas in the Qur'an I see speeches being given by the Prophet to people about specific things in specific
times - which doesn't fit for me, but perhaps that is just me being odd.
ANSWER:=
THIS OBJECTION IS INCORRECT. SINCE THE RESPECTED OBJECTION MAKER DID NOT
PROVEDTHAT SUCH A THING IMPOSSIBLE AND ABSURD , SO THAT IT MUST EXCLUDE DIVINE
OMNIPOTENCE.
IF IT IS NOT ABSURD AND NOT IMPOSSIBLE THEN IT IS POSSIBLE AND CONTINGENT.
AT BEST THE OBJECTION MAKER MAY SAY THAT SUCH THINGS ARE POSSIBLE AND
CONTINGENT BUT IMPROBABLE.
BUT DEITY HAS OMNIPOTENCE OVER POSSIBLES AND CONTINGENTS EVEN IF THEY ARE
IMPROBABLE. BUT IT IS JUST A PERSONAL INCLINATION TOWARDS IMPROBABILITY ,EVEN
IMPROBABILITY IS NOT PROVED. IT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE WORK TO INDULGE IN THE
DISCUSSION , WHAT SITS WELL AND WHAT DOES NOT SIT WELL IN THE MIND OF THE OBJECTION
MAKER, SINCE IN IS A NON ENDING AND USE LESS WORK TO DISCUSS INDIVIDUAL MINDS AND
BRAINS, LIKENESS INCLINATIONS ETC.
ANSWERING THE OBJECTIONS ON URL:=
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-2
OBJECTION#7:=
THIS OBJECTION MAY BE DIVIDED IN TWO PARTS:=
1] Allah cannot create anything eternal for the simple reason that eternal means uncreated.
2] This is similar to the error in the Quran when it says Allah created life. (This issue I had taken up in
another thread, where you had participated prominently. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/generalreligious-debates/63041-did-allah-create-life.html) .
Life cannot be created because if there was no life at one point of time, who would have been alive to have
done any creation? Allah islife. And life in many forms is the existence of Allah. This is exemplified by the
imagery of the dancer and his dance. You cannot separate the dancer from his dance. Likewise with the
creator and creation. Likewise with Allah and his word. Quran is eternal but its form would change as it had
changed previously. Forms are corruptible. But the spirit is reborn in another form.
ANSWER:=
RESPONSE TO PART ONE:=
13
AS FOR THE FIRST PART , IT IS CORRECT THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY ASBURD AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CREATE AN
ETERNAL.
RESPONCSE TO PART TWO:=
THERE IS CERTAINLY A MISCONCEPTION ABOUT QURAN IN THE MINDS OF OBJECTION MAKERS:=
DIVINE LIFE [ DIVINE VITA] IS UNCREATED AND ETERNAL. THE LIFE WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION IS THE NON
-DIVINE LIFE. IT SIMPLY MAY BE SEEN THAT LIVING THING [ VITAL THINGS] BORN AND DIE. LIFE OF A LIVING
CREATED SUPPOSITUM IS CREATED SINSE EVERY ATTRIBUTE OF A LIVING CREATED THING OR VITAL CREATED
THING IS CREATED. ONE MUST DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE ETERNAL LIFE OF DEITY , AND NON ETERNAL LIVES
OF ALIVE CREATIONS.WHEN IT IS SAID DEITY MADE LIFE IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT DEITY MADE ALL LIVES
INCLUDING HIS OWN LIFE. SIMILARLY OF IT IS SAID THAT DEITY DID MAKE ALL ESSENCES , IT DOES NOT MEAN
DEITY MADE HIS OWN ESSENCE AS WELL. THERE IS A RATIONAL NECESSARY EXCEPTION FOR THE DIVINE
ATTRIBUTES. IF IT IS NEGLECTED THEN DEITY CANNOT EVEN BE OMNOSCIENCE SINCE THERE IS A STATEMENT
X= NO ONE KNOWETH THAT X IS A TRUE STATEMENT. IT IS ARGUED THAT THIS STATEMENT CONTRADICTS
DIVINE OMNISCIENCE. THE ANSWER IS THAT DEITYS OMNISCINCE IS A SELF NECESSARY EXCEPTION FROM THIS
SENTENCE.
LIFE OF DEITY IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF DEITY AND EXISTENCE IS AN OTHER ATTRIBUTE OF DEITY. A NUMBER OF
THEOLOGIANS MAKE A SEPARATE CASE OF THE EXISTENCE /ESSE OF DEITY.
SINCE IF IT IS SAID THAT THE ETERNAL ESSENCE IS NOT ALIVE BUT EXISTS IT THOUGH IMPLY ABSURDITIES
BUT MORE ABSURDITIES ARE IMPLIED IF IT IS SAID ETERNAL ESSENCE DOES NOT EXIST, BUT IS ALIVE.
PROBLEM OF DANCE AND DANCER:
DANCE IS AN ACT OF THE SUBJECT DANCER. THE WORD SEPARATE IS USED IN DIFFERENT MEANINGS:=
IT MAY BE USED IN THE SENSE OF TWO INDEPENDENT THINGS, IT MAY BE EVEN USED FOR THE DISTINCTION OF
AN ATTRIBURE FROM AN ESSENCE , OR AN ACCIDENT FROM A SUBSTANCE.
NEITHER AN ATTRIBUTE IS PER SE SUBSISTENT NOR AN ACCIDENT IS PER SE SUBSISTENT. BOTH OF THEM
SUBSIST IN SOME THING PER SE SUBSISTENT. THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT SUBSTANCES
,ACCIDENTS,ESSENCES AND ATTRIBUTES . INTERESTED PEOPLE MAY SEE SUCH DISCUSSIONS WHICH ARE
PRESENT IN THOUSAND AND THOUSAND OF PAGES. TO DISCUSS HERE IS JUST TO WASTE THE TIME OF THE
REDERS. INTERESTED PEOPLE MAY SEE THESE TOPICS FROM PHILOSOPHICAL WORKS BOTH CLASSICAL AND
MODRERN. ONE EVEN USE A GOOD SEARCH ENGINE TO STUDY THE TOPIC AS WELL.
HOW EVER ASSUMING THAT THIS TOPIC MAY BE NEW TO SOME OF THE READERS A VERY BRIEF DISCUSSION IS
GIVEN BELOW:=
1] A SUBSTANCE IS A THING WHICH SUSTAINS AND SUBSISTS ONLY IN IT SELF.
2] A SUBSTANCE IS A THING WHICH CAN NOT BE PRADICATED TO ANY THING EXCEPT IT SELF. [ NOTE THE
NECESSARY EXCEPTION].
3] ACCORDING TO SPINOZOA:=
A SUBSTANCE IS ONE THAT IS CONCIEVED IN IT SELF BY IT SELF.
14
ACCIDENT:=
1] AN ACCIDENT IS A THING WHICH SUBSISTS AND SUSTAINS IN SOME THING ELSE.
2] AN ACCIDENT IS A THING WHICH CAN BE PRADICATED TO A SUBSTANCE.
3] AN ACCIDENT IS ONE THAT IS NOT CONCIEVED IN ITSELF BY IT SELF.
THEOLOGIANS DIFFER WHETHER THE WORD SUBSTANCE CAN BE USED FOR DIVNE ESSENCE OR NOT.
A LARGE NUMBER OF THEOLOGIANS BELIEVE THAT SUBSTANCE DETERMINES AN ESSENCE IN NON DIVINE
CASES.SOME THINK THAT DIVINE ESSENCE AND DIVINE SUBSTANCE / OUSIA ARE ONE AND THE SAME. A NUMBER
OF THINKERS EVEN DENY SUBSTANCES OR ACCIDENTS. THERE ARE VARIETIES OF THOUGHTS ON THE ISSUE.
ANY HOW AN ACT IS AN ACCIDENT WHETHER IT IS THE ACT OF DANCING OR ACT OF RUNNING ETC.
IN WHAT SENSE IT IS SEPARATE FROM THE SUBJECT IS THAT IT IS NOT THE SUBSTANCE BUT THE SUBJECT
[ DOER/ACTOR] OF THE ACT IS A SUBSTANCE.
STRANGELY THE OJECTION MAKER DISCUSSES THE ISSUE AS IT IS A NEW OBJECTION , WHERE AS IT HAS BEEN
DISCUSS SINCE AGES.
PROBLEM OF DIVINE ATTRIBUTES:=
THE STATEMENT GIVEN BELOW HAS MANY PROBLEMS:=
You cannot separate the dancer from his dance. Likewise with the creator and creation. Likewise with Allah
and his word. Quran is eternal but its form would change as it had changed previously. Forms are corruptible
but the spirit is reborn in other forms.
FIRST:= THE PROBLEM OF SUBSTANCE AND ACCIDENT STATED ABOVE.
SECOND:= ATTRIBUTES OF DEITY AND ESSENCE OF DEITY [GODHEAD\DIVINITY]
ATTRIBUTES OF DEITY ARE NOT SEPARATE AS IF EACH ONE OF THEM IS A DISTINCT ESSENCE. THESE ATTRIBUTES
ARE SELF ASSOCIATED WITH THE DIVINE ESSENCE , SUBSISTS IN DIVINE ESSENCE , ARE SUSTAINED IN DIVINE
ESSENCE AND ARE INSEPERABLE FROM IT.
YET THEY ARE DISTINCT FROM THE ESSENCE IN THE SENSE AN ATTRIBUTE OF DEITY IS NOT THE ESSENCE OF
DEITY. OTHER WISE IF EACH ONE OF THE ATTRIBUTE IS THE ESSENCE OF THE DEITY THEN ALL THE DIVINE
ATTRIBUTES ARE THE ESSENCE OF DEITY, IMPLYING PLURALITY IS SINGULARITY AND SINGULARITY IS PLURALITY.
A LOGICAL CONTRADICTION. SINCE SINGULARITY IS NOT PLURALITY AND PLURALITY IS NOT SINGULARITY.THAT
IS THE REASON A NUMBER OF THEOLOGIANS REJECT THE CLAIM THAT THE ESSENTIAL ARRIBUTES OF DEITY ARE
IDENTICAL TO THE DIVINE ESSENCE. BUT AN OTHER NUMBER OF THEM ACCEPT THE IDENTITY.BUT THEY DO
NOT SAY THAT IT IS MEANING LESS RAITHER THEY ATTEMPT TO PROVE IDENTILY PROVIDING ATTEPTED PROOFS
AND THE DEBATRE GOETH ON. ONE SHOULD TRY TPO PROVE THE CLAIM INSTEAD OF CLAIMING THAT THIS IS
MEANING LESS. EVEN THE MEANINGS IMPLYING CONTRADICTIONS ARE NOT MEANING LESS.IT WOULD HAVE
BEEN BETTER TO SAY THAT ITS MEANING IS OF A CONTRADICTION OR ITS MEANING IMPLIES A CONTRADICTION
RAITHER THEN TO CLAIM THAT IT IS MEANING LESS. AT LEAST NOT IN ARGUMENTS OR DEBATES.
15
IT APPEARS THAT THE LEARNED OBJECTION MAKER BELIEVES THAT CREATIONS EXIST AND SUBSIT IN ALIO, IN
THIS CASE SUBSIST AND EXIST IN DIVINE ESSENCE I.E DEITY.
BUT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT DEITY AND HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE.
MEANING OF CREATION:=
ABILITY TO CREAT I.E CREATIVITY IS A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE AND ONE THAT IS CREATED IS A CREATURE . THE
WORD CREATION IS SOME TIME USED IN THE MEANING OF ABILITY TO CREATE , WHICH IS A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE.
SOME TIME IT IS USED IN THE MEANING OF ONE THAT IS CREATED .
SIMILARLY THE WORD SEPARATE IS ALSO USED IN DIFFERENT MEANINGS AND SENSES.
DEMAND:=
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT DEITY AND HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE. IF SOME ONE BELIEVES THAT DEITY
AND HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE , THEN THE NECESSARY PREREQUISIT OF THIS CLAIM IS IT IS
POSSIBLE THAT DEITY AND HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE IN ESSENCE. ONE HAS TO PROVE THAT THIS IS POSSIBLE?
A POSSIBLE OBJECTION:=
IT MAY BE RESPONSED THAT IT IS THE IMPOSSIBILITY WHICH REQUIRETH PROOF NOT THE POSSIBILITY. SIMPLY
THE ABSENSE OF PROOFS OF IMPOSSIBILITY PROVES ITS POSSIBILITY.
NOTE THERE IS NOTHING NEW:=
Aristotle there are 10 categories into which things naturally fall. They are AS FOLLOW:=
1] SUBSTANCE.
2] ACCIDENTS like Quality, Quantity, Relation,Action,Passion,Time
,Space,Arrangement,Rainment. So to discuss what so ever is discussed since centuries as if it is
some thing new is not correct. Every Student Of Philosophy Knows that Substance is not
Accident and vice versa, now call it Separate or coin an other word for it , the meaning is same.
Note :A large number of theologians and Philosophers do divide creations in two types.
1] Essences. 2] Attributes.
If Creations Exist in Divine Essence then Created Essences also Exist In Divine Essence.This
implieth plurality Of Essences in Divine Essence.
This is impossible since Divine Essence is Per Se Exclusive to Essences to be in It.
16
Some time the term Essence is also used in this meaning. But in this work the Term Essenceis not used in this
meaning.
ANSWER:=
1] WE REJECT THIS THEORY AND OPT FOR A PROOF ON EACH ONE OF THEM.FIRST PROVE THE DOGMA THEN
ARGUE BY THE DOGMA. [ THIS IS THE MATHEMATICAL APPROACH ]
2] IF IT IS ACCEPTED THAT ABSENCE OF PROOFS OF IMPOSSIBILITY IS A PROOF OF POSSIBILITY IN GENERAL,
EVEN THEN IN REGARD TO THE DIVINE ESSENCE THERE IS A NECESSARY EXCEPTION.
3]IF DEITY AND CREATIONS EXIST AND SUBSIST IN ONE AND THE SAME ESSENCE , EVEN THEN IT IS ACCEPTED
THAT DEITY IS INFALLABLE AND CREATIONS ARE FALLABLE AND DEITY AND CREATIONS ARE NOT EQUAL]
4]MATHEMATICALLY: DEITY=/= CREATIONS.
.
5] LET DEITY AND ANY ONE OF THE CREATION SAY C ARE IN ONE ESSENCE. A MORE POWERFUL AND STRONGER
CASE THAN THEY ARE JUST ONE IN ESSENCE.
NOW THERE ARE JUST TWO OPTIONS:
1] CREATION C IS DEITY .
2] CREATION C IS NOT DEITY.
IF CREATION C IS DEITY THEN AS CREATION C IS FALLABLE THE DEITY IS FALLABLE.
IF CREATION C IS A SUBJECT OF FALLABILITY THEN THE DEITY IS ALSO ITS SUBJECT. BUT THIS IS DENIED BY
THE OBJECTION MAKER.
IF CREATION C IS NOT THE DEITY AND IS FALLABLE THEN IT MEANS THAT THINGS SUBJECT TO FALLABILITY AND
CORRUPTION CO-EXIST WITH DEITY IN ONE AND THE SAME ESSENCE. THE EXISTENCE IN ONE AND THE SAME
ESSENCE DOETH NOT MAKE CREATIONS INFALLABLE AND UNCORRUPTABLE.
WHAT SO EVER IS TRUE FOR THE STRONG CASE IS DEFINITELY TRUE OF THE WEAKER CASE THAT CREATIONS
AND DEITY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE. SO IF CREATIONS AND DEITY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE EVEN THEN CREATIONS ARE
SUBJECT TO CORRUPTION AND FALLIBILITY. THIS REFUTES THE PART OF CONUNDRUM .
If the Qur'an is created, then it is subject to corruption just like all of creation.---[Part Two Of The Conundrum]
17
This conundrum would not arise in Hinduism because of its vision of the
creator and created being one in essence.
Now the entire conundrum is valid even for Hinduism. If Vedas are Creations then this part of the
Conundrum is valid even if Vedas and Deity are Supposed to be one in essence. If Gita is a Creation Or
Manu is a Creation , even then this conundrum is valid. If Bodies of Krishna are Creations then this part
of the Conundrum is valid to each body of Krisna, whether it has two hands or four. This Part of
Conundrum is valid of S-RTI AND SMR-TI if they are creations , even if they and Deity Are One In
Essence or even in the stronger case , they all are In One Essence. Thus being Homousia does not save
them from this part of the conundrum.Further this implieth that all the Fallibilities and Corruptions
Subsist and Exist in Divine Essence whether Directly or Indirectly. This is Impossible. It must also be
noted that Deity is beyond Parts so it is Impossible that Creations are parts and parcels of Deity.There
is no such Possibility. One who claims such a possibility is asked to provide proofs [ at least one ] for
the possibility or contingency or both of this. [ See stated above Reason for the demand of proof].
CREATIONS ARE FALLABLE WHILE DEITY IS NOT , THEN THESE ARE SOME
DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THE DEITY AND HIS CREATIONS. THE WORD SEPARATE MAY
BE USED EVEN FOR THIS TYPE OF DISTINCTION.
AS OUR DISCUSSION IS JUST ON THE QURAN NOT ON ITS FORMS IT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF DISCUSSION TO
DISCUSS ITS FORMS. HOW EVER IT IS LIKELY TO DISCUSS THE PROBLEM OF FORMS LATTER.
BUT IT MAY BE NOTED THAT THE WORD FORM I USED IN VERY DIFFERENT MEANINGS. SOME TIME IT IS USED IN
THE MEANING OF ESSENCE , SOME TIME IT IS USED IN THE MEANING OF OUSIA, SOME TIME IT IS USED IN THE
MEANING OF NATURE WHETHER THE NATURE IS PER SE SUBSISTENT OR NOT, SOME TIME IT IS USED IN THE
MEANING OF ESSENCE, SOME TIME IN THE MEANING OF A CREATED SUBSTANCE, SOME TIME IN THE MEANING OF
SHAPE OR FIGURE ETC. ONE NEED TO SPECIFY THE MEANING TO THE WORD PRIOR TO THE USE OF IT IN
THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSIONS.
OBJECTION#8:=
I understand that in the sense that God is one with His energies, therefore we are one with God.
However, this is not to say that we are equal to God in all respects.
Nor do I subscribe to the monist philosophy that says all individuality is Maya and therefore the ultimate reality
is a single, homogenous Self or Brahman. We are eternally individuals, part and parcel of God. God is achyuta
(infallible) whereas we are fallible, as we can currently see.
ANSWER:=
THIS IS IN A CLOSE APPROXIMATION TO ONE OF THE SEVERAL APPROCHES TO SPINOZA:
Only the Being of DEUTY is Substance. All things are accidents or in the attributes of God.
This is one approach to Spinozism.
NOTE: THIS DIRECTLY IMPLY THAT CREATIONS ARE NOT THE DEITY SINCE CREATIONS ARE
NOT THE SUBSTANCE. THIS IS VERY ANALOGOUS TO THE OBJECTION MAKERS VIEW.
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NOTE: THIS DIRECTLY IMPLY THAT CREATIONS ARE NOT THE DEITY SINCE CREATIONS ARE
NOT THE SUBSTANCE. THIS IS VERY ANALOGOUS TO THE OBJECTION MAKERS VIEW.
Note:= If a Creation is Composite, If the Creation and Deity are One In Essence and If the
Creation is Eternal ,then the Creation is the Deity, This Implieth
That THE DEITY IS COMPOSITE RIGHT IN DIVINE ESSENCE [In other words God Is Composite
In His Godhead].
A very incorrect Result.
Pantheism in general states that:=
God and the world are one. NOTE : IF ONE THEN ONE IN ESSENCE.
Whether One says All Created Things are One In Essence With God Or Say World is One In
Essence With God are almost one and same thing with some slight differences.
. The doctrine is fond in Ancient Egyptian Religion and early Indian philosophy; it appears
during the course of history in a great variety of forms, in the strictest sense, i.e. as
identifying God and the world. Some types of Pantheism are simply Atheism. Many forms of
Pantheism generally involves Monism, but the latter is
not necessarily pantheistic. Emanationism may easily take on a pantheistic meaning and as
pointed out in the Encyclical "Pascendi dominici gregis", the same is true of the
modern doctrine of immanence.
IT APPEARS THAT THESE OBJECTION MAKERS DO BELIEVE THAT CREATIONS EXIST IN
ALIO , I.E CREATIONS OF DEITY EXIST AND SUBSIST IN THE ESSENCE OF DEITY. BUT THIS
IS INCORRECT AND IMPOSSIBLE. ANY THING WHICH SUBSITETH AND EXISTETH IN DIVINE
ESSENCE IS PROCEEDTH AND ISSUETH IMMENENTLY AND NECESSARILY WITH OUT ANY
POSSIBILITY OF NON IMMENECE AND UNNESSACITY. THUS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE OF ANY
CREATION TO BE IN THE DIVINE ESSENCE. AS EVENTS ARE ALSO CREATION IT IS
IMPOSSIBLE THAT AN EVENT OCCURS IN DIVINE ESSENCE. THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF
AN EVENT IN DIVINE ESSENCE.
It may be noted that if Divine Essence is also the Essence of Creation even then the self of a
creation cannot exist in the Divine Essence. So it is Distinct from the Divine Essence. So the
selves of creations exclude Divine Essence even if Divine Essence is also the Essence of the
Selves of Creations.
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Note1: If the creation has no Existence a part From Deity it is not implied that the
creation subsists in Deity or in Divine Essence. The same is true for the Divine
Essence, since Majority Of Theologians, and Philosophers believe that Divine
Essence and Divine Existence are One and the Same.That is why they do not
include Existence as an Attribute Of Deity but as the Essence Of Deity in every
regard.
NOTE2:- If the Divine Essence is the Essence Of All Creations, then the Self Of Each
Creation Becometh a Non Essence in It self, which reduceth each Creation to an
Accident . This implieth that No Creation is an Essence. Now as Essence of Any
Creation is Not a Creation, the accident either Subsisteth in the Divine Essence or It
is Distinct from the Divine Essence. Former requireth that there are possibilities of
Bringing the Accidents stated above from Non Existences to Existence, in the
Divine Essence. But there is no such possibility in the Divine Essence. A APossibility
of Bringing a thing from nothingness to thingness and DivineEssence Exclude Each
Other.
NOTE3:=
IF IT IS ARGUED THAT ALL NON ETERNAL THINGS SUBSIST , OCCUR AND EXIST IN
DIVINE ESSENCE THEN ITS PREREQUISIT IS THAT THEIR SUBSISTENCE ,OCCURRENCE
, EXISTENCE AND SUSTAINMENT ARE POSSIBLE AND CONTINGINT IN DIVINE
ESSENCE. BUT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLESINCE ANY THING WHICH EXISTETH OR
SUBSISTETH ETC IN DIVINE ESSENCE SUBSISTETH OR EXISTETH WITH INTRINSIC
NECESSITY AND IT IMMENENTLY SUBSISTETH WITH OUT ANY [POSSIBILITY OF
NEGATION OF NECESSICITY ,SUBSISTENCE [SUBSISTENS] ETC.
NOTE 4:=
IT MAY BE ARGUED THAT DEITY IS INFINE AND IF A CREATION EXISTETH OUT OF
DEITY THEN THERE IS A LIMIT OF DEITY AND DEITY BECOMETH FINITE.
ANSWER. DEITY IS NOT INFINITE IN THE SPETIAL SENCE OR IN THE VOLUMATERIC
SENCE AS IT IS ASSUMED IN THIS OBJECTION.
DEITY IS INFINTE IN EVERY KIND OF DIVINE PERFECTION, AND EACH PERFECTION IS
INFINTELY PERFECT. THE INFINTY OF DEITY REQUIRETH A SPECIAL DISCUSSION BUT
IT IS INFINITELY INCORRECT TO ASSUME THAT DEITY OCCUPY THE INFINITE SPACE
INFINITELY.
A VERY WRONG INTERPRETATION OF INFINITY OF DEITY.
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I understand that in the sense that God is one with His energies, therefore we are one with God.
However, this is not to say that we are equal to God in all respects.
POINT TO BE NOTED:=
1] THESE STATEMENTS CONFESS THAT THERE IS A PLURALITY OF ENERGIES OF GOD, NOT A
SINGULARITY OF ENERGY. NOW IF THESE ENERGIES ARE GOD THEN ONCE AGAIN THE
CONTRADICTION PLURALITY IS SINGULARITY IS IMPLIED.
2]WE ARE NOT DIVINE ENERGIES BUT CREATIONS. SO IF DIVINE ENERGIES ARE ONE IN ESSENCE
WITH GOD IT IS NOT IMPLIED THAT WE ARE ONE IN ESSENCE WITH GOD.
3] UPNISHAD SAY :=
A] WHOLE WORLD IS BRAHAMAN. AS BRAHMAN IS GOD, THEY WHOLE WORLD IS GOD.
IF WHOLE WORLD IS GOD \BRAHMAN THEN THE WORLD IS NOT JUST EQUAL TO GOD / BRAHMAN
BUT THE VERY GOD/ BRAHMAN HIMSELF.
B] IT IS NOT JUST THE WORLD BUT EACH AND EVERY THING IS GOD AND GOD IS EACH AND EVERY
THING FROM A DARK BLUE BIRD TO A GREEN PARROT ETC.
ONE MAY NOTE THAT THIS IS ALSO THE VIEW OF THE LEARNED OBJECTION MAKER.
NOW WE COME TO SEE THE PROBLEMATIC VIEW OF THE OBJECTION MAKERS.
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HE SAYS:-
Is creation and creator one and the same thing? Yes. [SEE OBJECTION 16, Also
see objection#5]
THIS MEANS THAT DEITY AND CREATION ARE NOT JUST TWO DISTINCT BEINGS IN ONE AND SAME ESSENCE BUT
THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME INDIVIDUAL. AND ONE AND THE SAME BEING. IF THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME
BEING THEN THE ESSENCE IN THE BEING IS ALSO ONE AND THE SAME..
A CONUNDRUM:=
If Two or more things are one in Essence then they are either In One Essence or Not.
If they are then the Essence is some thing other then ALL OF THEM.
In this case the Essence in Which Deity and Creations are in,is some thing other then the Deity. In other words
Godhead Of the God is other than the God.
As this is a Separation, and the Learned Objection Maker does not believe that Divine Attributes are Separate from
Deity, it is likely that he shall not believe that Divine Essence is Separate from the Deity on Primary Grounds.[Also
See page 10]
If All Creations and Deity are not in one and the same Essence then EITHER some of the CREATIONS AND DEITY are In
One and the Same Essence , while some Creations and the Deity are not in One and the Same Essence OR NONE OF
THEM are in One and the Same Essence..
In the first case some of the creations and the Deity are are not one in Essence.
In the Second case they are not One In Essence.
A Possible Argument
Creations and Deity are One in Essence but not in One Essence.
ANSWER:=
THE CONUNDRUM DOES WORKS SINCE IT PROCEEDS AS FOLLOW:=
IF CREAION ARE ONE IN ESSENCE THEN THERE ARE ONLY TWO CASES. :1] THEY ARE IN ONE ESSENCE. 2] THEY ARE
NOT IN ONE ESSENCE. [SEE THE CONUNDRUM]
NOW SEE THE STATEMENT WHICH IS GIVEN BELOW:=
THE OBJECTION MAKER SAYS:=
I agree [with ] such statements because they imply that Allah, Krishna etc. are only names of the same phenomenon. We verily
have no existence independent of God because we are God in essence. The enquiry after God is as well accomplished by the
enquiry of the "I" which we are.
ANSWER
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IT IS CORRECT THAT NO CREATION HAS ANY EXISTENCE INDEPENDENT OF DEITY BUT IT IS EQUALLY INCORRECT THAT DEITY AND
HIS CREATIONS ARE ONE , OR DEITY AND ALL OF HIS CREATIONS DWELL IN ONE AND SAME ESSENCE.SUPPOSE THAT DEITY IS THE
ESSENCE AND ESSE OF ALL OF HIS CREATIONS EVEN THEN NO CREATION IS IN THE DIVINE ESSENCE BUT DISTINCT FROM THE DIVINE
ESSENCE.
IT MUST BE NOTED THAT IN PANTHEISM DEITY IS IMPERSONAL , AND THE SAME IS THE VIEW OF THE OBJECTION MAKERS,
SINCE A PERSONAL DEITY MUST BE DISTINCT FROM ALL CREATIONS AND CREATED WORLDS.
NOW COME TO THE POINT THAT ALL-H [SVT] IS THE PROPER NOUN OF A PHNOMENON [AL AYAZ:. BILLAH TAA:LA:]
IT IS AN INFINITELY FALSE CLAIM. SINCE ALL-H IS THE PROPER NOUN OF THE ESSENCE THAT IS SELF NECESSARY IN EXISTENCE.
EVEN THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES CANNOT BE CALLED BY THIS PROPER NOUN EVEN IF THEY ARE BELIEVED TO BE LOGICALLY DISTINCT
FROM THE DIVINE ESSENCE. THE SAME IS TRUE FOR THE NOUN OF YAHVAH. IT MAY BE NOTED THAT THE DIVINE ESSENCE IS NOT
EVEN LOGICALLY DISTINCT FROM ITSELF. SO THIS ASSERTION IS DUE TO THE MISCONCEPTION OF SEMETIC RELIGIONS.
I PESONALLY THINK THAT EVEN IN HINDUISM THE NOUNS LIKE B-R-M-H OR B-R-H-N ARE NOT THE NOUNS OF ALLEGED
PHENOMENA.THE OBJECTION MAKER IS NOT DEFENDING ANY HINDU SECT BUT EXPRESSING HIS OWN IDEAS.
OBJECTION#9:=
Question...Does God's words being eternal necessarily mean that those words (in the form of a law, per se) apply eternally and in
all cases?
Answer is:= Actually all words in all scriptures are man's words. But since such enlightened people have
reached the higher dimensions of knowledge, it is right to say that they are God's words - for what is God but
divinity in absolute terms? About eternal words applying eternally, it was colourfully put in the Bible, The
letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.
ANSWER:= ALTHOUTH THIS QUESTION IS NOT RELATIVE TO THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION AND OUGHT TO BE LEFT
OUT YET FOR SOME REASONS SOME COMMENTS ARE NECESSARY .
LET CHRISTIANS EXPLAIN THE EXPRESSION. THERE ARE GOOD COMMENTARIES OF HEBREW BIBLE AND GREEK
NEW TESTAMENT. ONE MAY REFER TO THEM BEFORE QUOTING THEM IN HIS OWN FASION.WORDS SPOKEN BY
MESSIAH CANNOT KILL BUT GIVE LIFE.IF LIFE IS GIVEN THEN IT IS NOT ETERNAL. THE WORD SPIRIT MAY
CORRESPONDS TO THE THIRD HYPOSTASIS IN THE GOD THE TRINITY, NOT TO THE HUMAN SOUL. IT IS A
DIFFERENT CASE.
ANSWER:=
AT LEAST THIS IN NOT THE CASE WITH QURAN. IT IS NOT THE SPEECH OF ANY CREATED SUPPOSITUM SAY
HUMAN OR ANGEL OR WHAT SO EVER.
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran-created-or-eternal.67549/page-3
OBJECTION#10:=
When all Muslims proclaim that Quran is the word of God, naturally it has to be assumed that the Quran is
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eternal. But Islamic theology might have some difficulty in explaining how there could be the phenomenon
of two eternals. The question of ‘shirk’ then arises. I thought this was an interesting subject
from the academic point of view. Of course I am aware that just as they say love is blind, likewise faith also
does not require any explanations.
OBJECTION#11:=
When all Muslims proclaim that Quran is the word of God, naturally it has to be assumed that the Quran is
eternal. But Islamic theology might have some difficulty in explaining how there could be the phenomenon
of two eternals. The question of ‘shirk’ then arises. I thought this was an interesting subject
from the academic point of view. Of course I am aware that just as they say love is blind, likewise faith also
does not require any explanations.
ANSWER:= [AN ANSWER TO ONJECTION# 10 AND OBJECTION#11]
TO CLAIM THAT PLURALITY OF ETERNALS IS A SHIRC IS DUE TO MISCONCEPTION OF THE ISLAMIC TERM SHIRC.
IT IS NOT TENTAMOUNT TO THE TERM POLYTHEISM. IT REQUIRES A DISCUSSION OF IT SELF.
The claim of DIFFICULTIES is not correct.
OBJECTION#12:=
What I meant was that anything that is a divine expression of other religions is shrugged off as 'shirk' by
Islam. It inevitably turns out to be a case of throwing the baby away with the bathwater. That is, all
religions, except Islam, are treated as being totally in error - when there could be so many things in other
religions that Muslims could learn to admire though there many be differences on some fundamental issues.
This way, a culture of inclusiveness could be encouraged in Islam, leading to a brotherhood of all believers not just a brotherhood of Islamic believers.
ANSWER:=
NOTE. THE ANSWER IS JUST RESTRICTED TO THE THEOLOGICAL PROBLEM OF SHIRC\SHIRK\SCHIRK.
SHIRCK IS A VERY TECHNICAL TERM OF ISLAMIC NOMENCLEATURE. IT IS A MISCONCEPTION THAT IT IS
ALTERNATIVE TERM OF POLYTHEIM. A NUMBER OF BELIEVES MAY BE TERMED AS SHIRK, BUT NOT AS
POLYTHEISM. THERE ARE MANY BELIEVES WHICH ARE TERMED AS SHIRC. FOR EXAMPLE:=
1] PLURALITY OF DEITIES.
2] PLURALITY OF ETERNAL ESSENCES.
3] PLURALITY OF INFINITE ESSENCES.
4]PLURALITY OF ETERNAL PER SE SUBSISTENTS.
5] EXISTENCE OF CREATIONS IN DEITY OR DIVINE ESSENCE.
6] EXISTENCE OF DEITY IN CREATIONS.
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OBJECTION#14:=
We use the word God or Allah or Krishna when we anthropomorphise the phenomenon called life and thereby
often forget that God, however called is but life or existence. Forms may change (die) but life is eternal and
ever celebrating its potency in various and endless forms and names.
ANSWER:=
DEITY HAS NO FORM. THE WORD FORM IF USED IN CASE OF DEITY ONLY MEANETH DIVINE ESSENCE. SO THERE
IS NO FORM OF DEITY EXCEPT DIVINE ESSENCE. THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE DIVINE NATURE. IN CASE OF DEITY
ESSENCE AND NATURE ARE ONE AND HAVE THE SAME MEANING. IF IT IS SUPPSED THAT DIVINE ETERNAL
ATTRIBUTES HAVE DIFFERENT NON ATTERNAL FORMS EVEN THEN IT IS NOT IMPLIED THAT THE DEITY I.E DIVINE
ESSENCE HAVE DIFFERENT ETERNAL FORMS. BUT LET IT BE SUPPOSED THAT THE DIVINE DEITH HATH SOME NON
ETERNAL FORMS, THEN NO FORM IS DEITY,EACH FORM IS A NOT-DEITY , A NOT-GOD.SIMILARLY NO FORM OF
ANY DIVINE ATTRIBUTE IS A DIVINE ATTRIBUTE.
Note Only Divine Vita [Life] is Eternal, Not Divine Life is Not Eternal.
Also Non Eternal Lives are corruptible. The number of people Die each day is a Certain Proof of the Claim.
But Deity Cannot die, since this is Absolute -Absurd.
The Problem Of Noun Krishna. If the word Krishna is used for the Divine Essence i.e Deity like Barmh or
Brahman then it would have been a different case. But Krishna is a proper noun of a human being , who
claimed to be a Divine Incarnation . So it is a problematic noun. Even Dayanand the founder of Arya Samaj
sect do not call God as Krishna or Rama etc . [ If he calls God by these Nouns Please QUOTE HIS OWN WORK]
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So it is a different case. Attempts are made to equate Jesus and Krishna but even this is not successful in
the least sence.When it is Impossible to say Jesus and Krisna are One it is primly Impossible to say God and
Krisna are one. Some Hindu Missionaries have tried to equate Jesus and Krishna to target some Christians but
not even a single attempt was successful. The natures of incarnation of Jesus as according to RC is very
DIFFERENT from the nature of Incarnation im Major Hindu sects. ANY HOW KRISHNA IS NEITHER JESUS NOR
YAHVAH, SIMILARLY KRISHNA IS NEITHER ALL-H NOR YAHVAH.WHAT SO EVER IS TRUE FOR KRISHNA IS ALSO
TRUE FOR RAMA. HINDU REFORMIST PANDIT DIANAND ALSO DENY INCARNATIONS AND HE BELIEVE THAT
NEITHER KRISHNA IS GOD NOT RAMA IS GOD.
What is the actual point, the point it is not just easy to make such great claims which cannot be proved. If
some one takes them AXIOMATICALLY others reject this Axiom.
OBJECTION#15:=
Can we here consider the issue as to whether the Quran was created by Allah or is it the uncreated eternal word of Allah? I
personally believe that the Quran cannot be an uncreated phenomenon unless it is propositioned that the Quran is Allah.
ANSWER:=
THIS OBJECTION HATH BEEN ANSWERED. THIS IS JUST A REPEATATION. FOR DISCUSSION PLEASE SEE ABOVE.
Note : it is better to say Quran is Speech Of Deity then to say Quran is Word of Deity. The word Calam means Speech and he
words cal-mah and lafz: mean word.
Any How phrase word of Deity is not incorrect, but the Phrase Speech Of Deity is preferable.
OBJECTION#15:=
Quran was communicated to Mohammad by Gabriel in the form of spoken Arabic. It was later consolidated into the form of written Arabic. In
what form would it have been communicated to Gabriel by Allah? Maybe in the seedform of language or mantra, as the Hindus call it. And in what form
would Allah have retained it? In the eternal formless silence, of course.
ANSWER:=
IT CAN BE COMMUNICATED DIRECTLY. SINCE THE ACT OF SPEAKING IS NOT ETERNAL. BUT THIS IS ONLY A CORALLERY OF A
MORE FUNDAMENTAL PHILOSOPHICAL PROBLEM. THE EMANATION OR ISUUANCE OF DIVINE ACT OR DOINGS FROM DIVINE
ATTRIBUTES OR QUALITIES.
THE WORD SCILENCE IS USED IN SEVERAL MEANINGS. IN GENERAL A PERSON WHO HAS NOT STUDIED THEOLOGY AND
PHILOSOPHY DOES THINK IT IS JUST ABSENCE OF [KNOWN] SOUNDS. A THEOLOGICIAN MAY CONSIDER SCILENCE AS ABSENCE OF
SPEECH OR ABSENCE OF WORDS.
SO IN THE FORMER SENSE ON MAY TERM IT AS FORM-LESS SCILENCE. BUT IN THE LATTER STATED SENSE , A SPEECH WHAT SO
EVER IT IS NOT SCILENCE.
OBJECTION#16:=
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The formless eternal silence takes on the form of ephemeral sound. Ephemeral creation is the celebration of the eternal Creator. The creator is the
celebration - the eternal creator’s endless ephemeral celebrations.
ANSWER :=
THIS IS SOME WHAT A COMPLEX OBJECTION.
THE QUESTION Is
sound and silence one and the same thing?is discussed above. See
Objection #16.
THE QUESTION WITH AN ANSWER:=
Is creation and creator one and the same thing? Yes.Is also discussed above.
Now we come to the most new part of the Objection.
The Objection Maker says:=
The formless eternal silence takes on the form of ephemeral sound. Ephemeral creation is the celebration of the eternal Creator. The creator is the
celebration - the eternal creator’s endless ephemeral celebrations.
IF EACH CELEBRATION IS ETERNAL THEN NON ETERNAL EVENTS ARE IMPOSSIBLE. IF EACH CELEBRATION IS NOT ETERNAL, THEN
THEY ARE CORRUPTIBLE, FALLABLE, EVEN IF THEY ARE ONE IN ESSENCE OF DEITY
OBJECTION#17:=
So is the Quran created or eternal? The Quran is the created form of the eternal uncreated formless silence. Ditto other scriptures.
ANSWER:=
ONE MAY CALL IT ETERNAL DIVINE SPEECH AS FORMLESS SCILENCE IF HE OR SHE LIKES IT BUT ONE MAY
NOT CALL IT SO IF ONE MAY NOT LIKE IT. AS FOR THE OTHER SCRIPTURES , IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT
THEY ARE ALSO LIKE QURAN. SEE THE WORKS OF HADIS, THE SCRIPTURES YET NOT DIVINE SPEECH.
QURAN IS NOT THE ONLY MUSLIM ARABIC SCRIPTURE, BUT BOOKS LIKE BUKHARI , MUSLIM, MUVATTA,
TARMIZI ETC ARE ALSO MUSLIM SCRIPTURES . THOUGH INITIALLY THEY WERE ORAL TRADITIONS BUT
ONCE WRITTEN THEY DO BECOM SCRIPTURES. SO NOT ALL SCRITURES ARE SPEECH OF DEITY.
OBJECTION #18:=
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Search
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It follows, therefore, that the Vedas cannot be non-eternal simply because the acts
of teaching and learning and the books are non-eternal. The knowledge of God is
eternal and infallible and, therefore, the relations between the letters, words and
meanings in the Vedas subsist for all times. They are the same in the present kalpa
as they were in the past and shall remain the same in the future also.
Hence it is said in the Rigveda 8:8, 48. The great Creator, made the sun and the
moon just as He had made them before! The words the sun and the moon in the
verse are class names and their meaning is that the plan of the names and their
meaning is that the plan of the creation of the sun and the moon in the present
kalpa is the same as that which existed in Gods knowledge in the previous kalpa,
because His knowledge is not liable to increase or decrease or variation. The same
is true of the Vedas, for, they too, are the products of His knowledge.
We shall now give some quotations from the works on the science of grammar, etc.,
which go to prove the eternalness of the Vedas. Sage Patanjali, the author of the
Mahabhashya, says, The words are eternal. Eternal words must needs consist of
unchangeable and immoveable letters which are not subject to elision,
augmentation or substitution.
This remark occurs in many places in the Mahabhashya from the 1st anhika
onwards. There is also the following observation which occurs in the commentary on
the aphorism ANEUN, A word is that which is perceived with ear, understood by the
intellect, rendered perceptible by being pronounced and which inheres in space.
The meaning is that all words are eternal whether they be Vedic (peculiar to the
Vedas) or Loukika (used by the generality of mankind), because they are composed
of letters which are imperishable and immoveable and are not subject to elisions,
augmentation and substitution. Words are eternal because in them there is neither
apaya = elisions, disappearance, nor, upajana = augmentation, nor vikaraa =
substitution.
The author of the Mahabhashya anticipates the objection that words cannot be
eternal because there are rules for their elision, etc., in the Ganapatha, Ashtadhyayi
and the Mahabhashya.
In the commentary on the aphorism DAADHAADHVADAADOU, he observes as
follows:- In the opinion of Panini, the son of Dakshi, complete words are substituted
for complete words, because if the change had taken place in one portion only the
eternalness (of words) would not be established. It means that whole groups are
substituted for other whole group of letters, i.e., specified groups are
substituted for other specified groups, e.g., the place of the word-group VEDAPAAR
+ GAM = U + SU + BHOO + SHAP + TIP. They are mistaken who thing that in this
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Q But the word also like the action of speech comes into existence when it is
pronounced. How can it, then, be eternal?
A. ~ A word, like space (Akasha), remains unmanifested in the absence of means,
although it is pre-existent. It becomes manifest through the action of breath (prana)
and speech. For example, in pronouncing the word GOU: so long as speech is
engaged with the letter G it has nothing to do with the letter OU and when it is
engaged with the letter OU it has no concern with the visargah.
It is therefore, the act of speech and pronunciation which is subject to elision and
augmentation and not the word itself which is indivisible, uniform and available
everywhere. Where there are no acts of speech and air, words can neither be
pronounced nor heard. We, therefore, conclude that words are eternal like space.
According to the grammatical science all words are eternal, what to say of the Vedic
words.
The sage Jaimini also has established the eternalness of words. Says he, in his
Purvamimansa I.1;18. It (the word) is surely eternal because it is manifested for the
sake of others. The meaning of the aphorism is this.
[The word surely is used with a view to remove doubts about the non-eternalness
of words.]
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This goes to show that the Shastra of the Omniscient God must needs be eternal
and must contain knowledge of all things. In the same chapter of the Vedanta
Shastra occurs another aphorism, viz, And for
purport of which is as follows:- God, is Omnipresent, etc., and pervades all things on
all sides. There is not a single atom (paramanu) in which He is not present. He is the
maker of the whole universe. He is mighty and possessed of the threefold body, the
gross, the subtle and the causal. Even an atom (paramanu) cannot penetrate Him.
Being impenetrable, He is incapable of receiving a wound.
He is not bound by the bonds of arteries, etc., and hence nothing can bind or throw
a veil over him. He always remains away and aloof from such defects as ignorance,
etc. He is never touched by sin, nor does He ever commit a sinful act. He is
Omniscient; He bears witness to and is the knower of the minds of all. He is without
the three causes, the efficient, the material and the general.
He is the universal father, but of Him the generator there is none. He always exists
by His own might, God, the supreme Self, is all existence, all consciousness and all
bliss. He imparted the true knowledge of things to his eternal subjects in the
beginning of creation by revealing the Vedas. Whenever he creates the world He
vouchsafes the Vedas, the repositories
of all knowledge, to His creatures for their benefit.
Everyone should, therefore, believe that the Vedas are eternal. They are Gods
knowledge always remains uniform and unchanged.
The Vedas can, with as great certainty be shown to be eternal on reason as on
authority. One should acknowledge the eternalness of the Vedas according to the
maxim that something cannot come out of nothing and nothing cannot produce
something. That alone will exist in future which exists at present.
It is impossible that a thing which has no root should have branches. To hold the
contrary opinion would be like seeing the marriage of the son of a sterile woman. If
she has a son she cannot be sterile and if she has no son no one can see his
marriage. Those very considerations apply to the case in hand. If God be devoid of
infinite knowledge, He would not be able to impart it to others, no one would be
able to acquire knowledge and experience; for, nothing can grow which
has no root. Nothing is seen in the world which has been produced without a cause.
We shall now state what is the actual experience of all men. We retain the
impressions of that only which has been the subject of our direct cognition and we
remember and know that only of which we retain the impressions.
This knowledge alone supplies us with the motives of action and inaction.
(attraction and repulsion). It cannot be otherwise. Whosoever reads Sanskrit gets
the impressions of that language only and of no other.
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In this way if God had not instructed and taught men in the beginning of creation no
one would have been able to come by experience that is requisite for acquisition of
knowledge.
Without such experience there would have been no impressions and without
impressions there would have been no remembrance and without remembrance
there would have been no knowledge, not even the semblance of it.
[THE SAME CANBE SAID FOR QURAN AS WELL. POINT TO BE NOTED PANDIT
DIANAND DID NOT USE THE DOGMA THAT CREATIONS EXISTS IN DIVINE ESSENCE. IF
SOME STATEMENTS ARE NOT TRUE FOR QURAN , IT MAY NOT CAUSE ANY PROBLEM.
THE BASICS MAY BE COSIDERED.]
Q. But why? Men have a natural bent to act and in their activities they experience
pleasure and pain. So, gradually and in course to time they must increase their
stock of knowledge. Why should it then be believed that the Vedas were produced
by God?
A. ~ We refuted this objection while treating of the origin of the Vedas. We proved
there that even now no one acquires knowledge and is able to increase it without
receiving instruction from others; so, man could not have made progress in learning
and knowledge without having received instruction from God in the beginning
through the Vedas.
There we illustrated our meaning by the case of children kept in a wilderness
without instruction and also by the cause of the dwellers of forests. We sat that such
children and dwellers of forest so could neither acquire knowledge, nor, learn the
use of human speech, without instruction let alone the question of the origin of
knowledge (through experience).
Therefore, the knowledge contained in the Vedas, which has proceeded from God,
must needs to be eternal like all of His attributes. The name, the attributes and the
actions of an eternal substance must themselves be eternal, because their
substratum itself is eternal.
existence of producer and if the producer itself happens to be the result of
combination it will have its own producer and so on ad infinitum. That which itself is
the product of combination cannot have the power of combining prakriti or the
atoms (paramanus); for, the latter will be subtler than itself. The subtler is the Atma
(pervader) of the grosser; for, the former is capable of penetrating into the latter as
fire penetrates into iron.
As fire, on account of its subtle composition can enter into the hard and gross iron
and separate its particles from one another, so, water, being subtler than earth, can
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enter into its particles and combine them into a ball or separate them from one
another.
God is above conjunction and disjunction and is all-pervading. He is, consequently,
able to bring about conjunction and disjunction according to law. It cannot be
otherwise.
We being ourselves within the sphere of combination and disjunction are unable to
combine or separate prakriti or paramanus. If God also were within that sphere He
would be, like us, incapable of bringing about combination and disjunction proceed,
being
the first cause of the things coming into existence by means of combination and
disjunction, is not under their sway. Without the first cause there would be no
beginning of combination and disjunction. The Vedas having been revealed by, and
having always existed in, the knowledge of God who is the first cause of
combination and separation, who remains ever unchanged in His essence, who is
without a beginning, eternal, unborn, and whose might endures for ever, their
eternalness and the truthfulness of the knowledge contained in them are
established.* [THE SAME CANBE SAID FOR QURAN AS WELL. POINT TO BE NOTED
PANDIT DIANAND DID NOT USE THE DOGMA THAT CREATIONS EXISTS IN DIVINE
ESSENCE].
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