'.

"I was attached to this city as upon a grea.

andnoble horse, which was somewhat sluggish because of its size and needed to be
stirred lip by a kind of gadfly."
-Sccrates in The Apology 30.J.

Q)

.c:
...,

A UVM Student
Newspaper

Right-Wing
Being Formed

Family Task Force

In Chittenden County

Margaret Martin
The Eagle Forum has landed in the
Burlington area and it's not a pretty
sight. Phyllis Schlafly's proteges and
co-conspirators-Ied
by Nancy Stringer, the woman who brought you
the death of Vermont's ERA-have
taken the form of the Vermont Task
Force on Families in Crisis. Their
stated mission is to combat domestic
violence and preserve the family unit.
Their actual mission-despite
public
statements
to the contrary-is
to
counter nationwide the strong and
growing network of services for victims of abuse, and simultaneously
send
women
somersaulting
backwards
into the "homes" they
finally had the strength to leave.
Essex junction was chosen as the
group's fifth "experimental site," and
since May of 1986, when the program
recerveo a

$62.2,905

U.S. Department

grant

from

the

of justice, the TFFC

has lost no time in infiltrating

the
communities of Seattle, Honolulu, Indianapolis,
and Bossier City, Loui-

siana. The grant is to be given in two

parts, with the second part contingent
on the "success" of the programs
which have been implemented to that
point. Previous projects have succeeded in drawing much criticism and
providing more than enough impetus
for groups such as the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence to
create a special committee to monitor

When questioned as to the sort of

(him) so much" since "it's not a daily,
training
that the older couple would
ongoing thing." Voth then went on to
receive with respect to the emotionalgive a specific example of the sort of
ly delicate
nature
of domestic
interaction
which might take place
violence and the accompanying
inbetween the couples: an older woman
tricate cycle of abuse, Voth answered
might say to the younger one "Well,
that "their training is life." He said
honey, can't you see that when you
that he sees this process replacing
say these things to your husband that
counseling and therapy, and cautionit makes him angry?" When a female
stopped.
ed, when questioned further, that the
The presentation
panel at the member of the audience asked if he
key was lack of rigidity, adding "If it
Radisson was made up of five men believed that a man was justified in doesn't work, you'll know it."
he assured her
and two women and provided
a hitting a woman,
As Paul Hegstrom stood up to take
("No,
my
dear")
that
the wife merely
highly representative
smattering of
continued on page 15
the TFFC Cast of Characters. Four of needs a maternal figure showing that
she
is
pr~voking
her
husband.
these are especially worth description: Dr. Harold Voth, the man who
developed the theory on which the
project is based; Paul Hegstrom, a
reformed batterer whose theories are
also part of the project; Tottie Ellis,
president and executive director of

and implement prevention strategies"

seems to be simply another wellintentioned effort to reduce the problem of domestic violence. It isn't until the various individuals involved in
the project reveal themselves and
open their mouths that it becomes
evident who and what must be

the TFFC and vice-president of the

Eagle Forum; and, last but not least,
the chosen site director of the Essex
Project, Nancy Stringer.

Interview With
Bernie Sanders

Dr. Voth. who is Chief of Staff at

Colmery-O'Neil
Medical Center in
Topeka,
Kansas,
a retired Navy
Reserves
rear
admiral.
and
a
"psychiatrist
and
psychoanalyst,"
was the main speaker of the evening
and began by stating that our society
is "riddled with immature people who
don't have personal strength," then
explained that this leads to a high
divorce rate which, in turn, "forces

TFFC ideologue Harold Voth stated, "the

violence part (of family life) doesn't
bother me so much" since "it's not a daily,
ongoing thing.

Cruic Photo

r r

the TFFC's activities. News of impending danger travels quickly, even in a

country the size of the United States,
and, as a result, there was no lack of
hostility in the air at Burlington's
Radisson Hotel on October 29 when
the Essex junction project was introduced in a "community forum."
The forum followed an exclusive daylong planning conference to which
few of the leading local domestic
violence counselors had been invited.
Packets presented to those attending the evening public forum were
chock-full
of statistics relating to
spouse abuse and to family violence
in general. followed by emphatic
statements like "IT MUST BE STOPPED!" Also included was an explicitly
vague outline of the project's goals.
At first glance, the TFFC's threeprong plan to "raise community
awareness,
discover
and develop
private sector resources," and "design

Chrissie Damon

women to work when they could be Gadfly: How did you in your youth
taking care of the kids." Voth con- view electoral politics, both on a natinued by saying that "Every time a tional and on a local level?
family breaks up you're creating the Sanders: I don't think any differently
tragedies of tomorrow," referring tC: than anybody else in my family, my
the children of divorced parents, all family was a reasonably non-political
family. So the issue: electoral/nonof whom end up leading tragic adult
electoral was not relevant.
When I
lives, of course.
was
a
kid,
!
think
!
was
reasonably
The main idea behind Dr. Voth's
program is that there simply aren't .sensitive to the plight of the underdog.
Both within the context of
enough professionals
to efficiently
classrooms
as well as nationally:
work on the problem and that the
'black
people,
native americans, these
very simple solution is to find older,
sorts
of
issues.
more experienced and mature couples
Gadfly: When you ran for student
who have had successful marriages
body president in high school. did
and match them up in a counseling
you view yourself as a serious consituation with a young couple whose
fender or were you running for some
marriage
is
on
shaky
of the same reasons you espoused
ground-"asssuming
that they have
sense enough to look for help." He later with Liberty Union, as a gadfly
of sorts?
suggested that the project begin with
Sanders:! was a child thenl ... No, incouples who aren't physically violent
terestingly enough, in running ... (and
to show that it can work, because
! did not win); in running ! was
"the violence part doesn't bother

The Gadfly Dec. 1, 1987

serious.

Gadfly: When you turned 21 did you

vote7

Sanders: Actually, ! didn't. Politics

interested me in the sense of basic
social issues such as social justice,
poverty, the condition of black people or war and peace issues, but !
would
say, I certainly
did not
gravitate towards electoral politics. I
think probably, I won't swear to it,
that the first time ! voted was in the
state of Vermont,
probably
for
myself.
Gadfly: When you were involved in
politics in college; the civil rights
movement etc. did these activities
complement a commitment to change
within the existing system or were
you already committed
to radical
change through other channels 7
Sanders: When! went away to colcontinued

on page 17

Page 1

t LRT.

Family Task Force

continued from. p~~e 15 .

ffed and surprised at that remark,

nsidering the fact that he mention. several times what great effort he
rd gone to to get here and present
e program. Did Stringer really need
, have him come all the way to Veront to tell her about the program?
e presented it earlier this year, in
pril, in Shreveport, Louisiana (the
irger city next door to Bossier City)
t that community's TFFC public
)ru~. The ."possibility" of using
amllres Helping Famllres must have
een quite strong when the TFFC inromation card (included in the hand'lit packets) was sent off to the

Interview
continued from page 1

other programs such as the United

Way. Some local programs, such as
DAIP and WHBW, do not receive
federal funding to begin with. In addition, the TFFC could be a project
simply for the sake of a project, and
the participants will sit around congratulating each other while Nancy
Stringer will have another antifeminist job for which she will
receive $8000.
The other possibility is far less
benign. Greene thinks the community
may see more battering and more
deaths, literally and figuratively in
the courts as women are left without
money and options such as the.safety

lege, I did not know a whoie lot about

politics, I was not particularly widely
read. And in fad it was at the
University of Chicago where "1 began
my political education by reading
rather carnivorously, everything I
could get my hands on; psychology,
economics, political science, history,
etc. etf:. That is where I developed my
political background. I did not learn
a whole lot in classes at the University
of Chicago , that's not very unusual,
is it?
But I did learn a whole lot off campus. The Hyde Park campus, had a
long tradition of progressive activity.
There were people there who were
communists, there were people there

Bob Green fears that TFFC will place

responsibility on the victim when, in actuality, "battering is not an interpersonal
problem. Change must be incumbent on
the abuser."
of shelters. He fears that TFFC will
place responsibilty on the victim
when, in actuality, 'battering is not
an interpersonal problem. Change
must be incumbent on the abuser"
rt is understandable that Stringer
Pat Faye-Brazel al 0
1 . t
.
h
di
.
h
If's
a counse or a
uld WIS to rsassocrare erse
the Center Eor Change and project
n a "military man" like Dr. Voth. cordinator for DAIP, agreed saying
less ish
easy
to understand
whyf hshe that "the b a tt erer IS. so I eyaccounta
'bl
'd
t d
th
e

in the civil rights movement, and

there was a group called the Student
Peace Union, which you have never
heard of I am sure. This group began
at the University of Chicago, and
went on to became a national movement of some degree. And also the
Congress On Racial Equality, an

W
0 . 0 so WI
one 0 er for his actions. "
Porum sls~ers, namely
ottie
The simplistic fact that souse
J.1I.hen, dunng. phone
tnterb
be
P
~
........ ~
FraIn Toll.
II u~ must
stopped is obvious.
s;,..rt T<Jltdlyopinion StrJ.na-r BuI"~ptloc.-oF~irvI'h.
__ ..
_ ..... _.
'" t ~
re th fa
that th way
....
~
\n wN<:h _
~\
\0
..\ \\ ";''/h.
"""
.. aM ~
_'-. \fte\<r
~w.m.
\ . endint!.
h
M' nd h
_._~ aww.ve \Tea_en\ m a spouse) has a
o~e\ ~n a
er own O-p\- great eUec'l on their personal ~\ation';"_ _~.~ e two ~~~en
are ships and, ultimately, the structure of
lu.:TS U1. U\e same \:.asw;.,
'[orce an d h
.
.
.
t h
h d
k
t e sOCletym which we live. Nancy
.
ave
a
\:.0 wor
together Strin er kno
thO
d al h

older

\ewhat intimately on at least one clai';s that ~~m \s~.an . It ough she
\:.0

prepare for the local con-

.. ~.

es

1~ VlO.

ence

1S

an

ence. Either there lacks a great deal ~~o~~~cal~ssue:n~ .Just simply must
communication
between the
. ppe -w IC It must and is the
,rious participants in this national ~~~ad co;cern-there. are diffe~ent
:ganizatlon or Stringer has been
0 s 0 accomplishmg that fmal
eglecting to keep up with her goaL One IS to offer the victim
,ading of the lengthy TFFC Newslet- nothmg more than temporary-if
er she undoubtedly finds in the any-asylum
from her relationship
nailbox next to her monthly cop of WIth an abuslv~ spouse and one corrhe Phyllis Schlafly Report.
y
rect way of hfe m the traditional
What specific effects will the TFFC ~~n;,I1Ystructure, all the while "helplave on domestic violence and the g her to beheve that she is
,resent network of services in the s~~eho,;" responsible for her and her
lrea? Bob Greene, who works at the c I dren s sItuation. The other is to
:enter for Change in Burlington sur- off~r the vICtimevery possible oppornises that there are two 'main tumty for real freedom from her
.ossibilities. The first is basically dbesltructlveSItuatIon and help her
,
, e leve that h d'd
lone, aside from the fact that it could..
~ e I not create that
[rain away possible funding from fSltu~tlonand IS'~ no way responsible
or It.
.

the_FINALCONFLICT

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POCKETBOOKS.

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19t;

16

The Gadfly
,"1

8.

people themselves actually owned the

community. Seeing that type of relationship exist and the fact that these
units in the kibbutz were working
well economically, made a strong impact on me. I learned that in a small
way, you had an economic unit that
educated its kids well, where there
were no "bosses" and there were no
"workers",
and that was very
democratic. Women were in a much
better position there than they were
in the US at that time. It was not
unusual for women there to be in
leadership positions.
It was a precedent from a social
point of view. I saw people there forty or fifty or sixty years of age, who
were very alert intellectually. They

I would like to see local government

become strong in the state of Vermont,
because
local government
is a
manageable level,

rinter, since it describes both Voth

nd his program with Nancy Striger's name and the local TFFC ad'ess and phone number right below

:asion

-V2

The Gadfly Dec. I, 19M7

..

organization,

developed

had discussions, they were part of the

socialist movement in Israel, people
wrote for newspapers,
debated,
thought.
So the level of consciousness was pretty impressive. So
I would say that if I would compare
the quality of life that I saw on that
kibbutz, compared to the quality of
life that I would see in the

chapter at the University of Chicago,

neighborhood

which became one of the more active

northern civil rights organizations.

superior on the kibbut.z.

The campus chapter worked with

black groups in the city of Chicago.
And so at that point, what was important to me, to my education, was
in a sense, going from, if you like,
liberalism to radicalism. What I learned at that time, finally, was that all of
these issues: nuclear proliferation,
war and peace, civil rights and environmental issues are related. They
are not separate issues. And that you
have to ask yourself questions such
as: who owns the country? who in
fact develops the policies that we
fight?
President Kennedy was elected
while I was at the University of
Chicago, that was 1960. I remember
being- physically nauseated -by his
speech and that doesn't happen very
often.He debated Nixon on Cuba.
And their hatred for the Cuban
Revolution, both of them, was so
strong. Kennedy was young and appealing and ostensibly liberal. but I
think at that point, seeing through
Kennedy, and what liberalism was,
was probably a significant step for me
to understand
that conventional
politics or liberalism was not what
was relevant.
Gadfly: From there you spent time on
an Israeli kibbutz,
after you
graduated.
Sanders: Yes, after I graduated, my
wife and I went to Europe and to
Israel and we spent some months on a
Kibbutz.
Gadfly: Did that affect your political
views in terms of governing systems
or was it mainly an experiencing of
alternative lifestyles or alternative
types of societies?
Sanders: What I learned, a long time
ago, about 1964, is that, in fact, you
could have a community in which the

Brooklyn,

that I grew up in, in'

it

was

significantly

In terms of what I learned, people

looked younger, they were in better
physical condition, they were in better mental condition, they had a sense
of purpose, they were striving for
something. It was not unimpressive.
Gadfly:
How did you become involved in the Liberty Union party?
Sanders:
What happened was
Senator Winston Prouty died, and as
a result there was a special election
held in the end of 1971. I ran against
Robert Stafford, who was then in
Congress, on the Liberty Union ticket
for US Senate. Then in Nov. 1972
there was a regular election in which I
ran for Governor.
Gadfly: Why did you join the Liberty
Union party?
Sanders: Essentially because of Jim
Raider, a good friend of mine who is
now our City Clerk. Jim knew some
people who were involved in Liberty
Union and asked me if I wanted to go
to their convention with him at Goddard. So I went down there, and
because I am a slightly crazy human
being, I decided to declare myself a:
candidate. There were about forty
people in the room and they announced that they had to stand candidates for the special election.
Nobody even knew me, with the exception of Jim, but I went up there,
and I gave a speech. That is how I
became a candidate for the Liberty
Union party.
Now what happened, of course is
that after that I ran for the Senate,
then for governor. I eventually
became chairperson of the Liberty
Union. I'm very proud, in fact, that
Liberty Union still exists today. I
think it's a very different type of party than it was then. But what Liberty
Union did was to use the electoral

process and other areas, such as utili- every direction that you can move in.
ty rates, to educate people and to
For example, and I throw this out
organize people.
hypothetically do I think that in the
From that point on, in every single great scheme of things, it is terribly
place, people would hear not only important who becomes student
from a Democrat or a Republican, council president of the University of
but hear form a progressive as well. Vermont? Obviously in one sense it
We had some really outstanding can- doesn't, the issues student council
didates. Michael Parenti, Nancy Cof- presidents deal with are not the burnfman, Martha Abbott, someone from ing issues of our time. However, if a
the trade unions ran for Lt. Gover- serious group of students at UVM
nor, etc. We had a number of ar- wanted to compete in that arena and
ticulate and bright people who could won the presidency and then used
use the debate formats, radio, televi- that office to make radical demands
sion and newspapers, to offer the on the University of Vermont, as to
people of the state of Vermont an what kind of University it could be I
alternative vision. The early years think that would be a fine effort. Is
had focused primarily on the opposi- that the only thing they should do?
tion to the war in Vietnam, and a No.
need for radical changes in the
So I guess the answer to electoral or
economic structure of the country.
non-electoral, is that nobody has conWhen people ask how I became vinced me that it is not sensible for
mayor, I stress that the election in people to enter that arena if you can
1981 was proceeded by over ten years educate people, if you can show up
of very hard work on the parts of a the contradictions of the system, if
lot of people in this state to educate you have the opportunity to debate
the public' not only about political, against democrats and republicans.
social and economic issues but about This media is very tightly controlled
the fact that there was an alternative in the United States. It is very hard to
to the democratic and republican par- get out an alternative point of view.
ties. And that third party tradition The electoral system is one means by
has gone 'on in the state of Vermont which one can do that. Occasionally,
for twenty years. The people of Ver- very rarely, a progressive will win.
mont have twenty years of knowing
In the United States today, we
there is an alternative
to the believe we are the only third party in
democrats and the republicans. The office in the entire country. It doesn't
people who founded Liberty Union in happen every day. Was it good or
the late sixties deserve a lot of credit, was it bad that we won? I think what
they were a small group of people and history will show, what the acthey did a good job.
complishments of the last six years
Gadfly: Todd Manley of the Liberty will show is that in many areas it was
Union said in 1973 that; "The Liberty important that we won. Not only for
Union does not believe electoral the specific concrete achievements
politics offers a real chance of solving that we brought about which improvVermont"s
problems,

or Americas fundamental

ed the lives of people, but as a means

but we do see electoral to use the forum of mayor or board

of

work in Vermont as a legitimate Aldermen to educate people. We get

course of action for serious work.
involved, talk about national issues,
Did you endorse this view that. it was stat.e-wide issues, we are now \:.alking

to raise awareness, to educate and not

to win, electoral office?
Sanders: Well when you run for office and peopl~ ask are you running
to win the answer is of course you
are ~ning to win. Would you reject
it if you won more votes than your
opponent? No of course not.

about health care.

In my view,
because of the issues we have raised
here in Burlington on health care
these will be important issues that the
governor and the Vermont State
Legislature wi.lI--have to deal With:
We need a n~tlOnal health program In
the United States. We are talkmg

One of the things that amuses me is that

half the people on the left spend all their
time critizing the other half. ..

However, when you understand that about that, uniquely now. People are
you are going to be out spent by one going to start picking that up. If I
hundred to one, you realize it's a long were not mayor of the city of Burlshot. I think what Todd was saying ington, we could not do that.
was that nobody in the Liberty
The state of Vermont now has
Union, nobody that I know now in three Congresspeople, all of whom
the progressive movement, thinks are voting again.st contra aid. My
that electoral politics is the only guess is that the people of Vermont
answer. One has got to be an idiot to by a pretty strong vote would be
believe that.
against contra aid. That did not hapThere is no one way. Not to use pen in a vacuum, it happened because
electoral politics in this country as a many people in the state of Vermont,
means to educate people, for exam- including myself for the last five years
pie, to use the opportunity of have spoken out on that issue. We
challenging
the' democratic
or uSe this office not only to deal with
republican opponents, to use the the day to day problems that we have
newspapers ... is absolutely stupid.
to deal with, and I think we do a pretOn the other hand, if someone says; ty good job on that, but we use it also
"I believe in electoral politics, but I as a educational forum to talk about
don't believe in building a mass. why things are the way they are.
movement, and a grass roots move- Gadfly: Some would say that while it
ment to deal with the basic social con- may be effective to work in electoral
f1ictsthat exist in this country", ",ell, . politics on a local level either for exyou gotta be crazy not to understand ample, in student government or in
the importance of that.

The Gadfly Dec. I, 1987

You move in

continued on page 18

Page 17

R.".nlnc:. TtL

-----

.v

think what Todd was referring to, is

Interview
continuedfrom page 17
Gadfly: Perhaps I should not bring up
the Mayors office, on other levels, Murray Bookchin as he is frequently
such as within national politics, elec- accuse of being a left basher, yet he
toral politics is not effective.
suggested a couple of weeks ago that
Sanders: That is a valid point. These perhaps because of the fact that you
are very difficult questions and I have were elected there are not more peoto tell you at the start I don't have all pIe involved in Burlington politics.
the answers.
But I am not sym- Sanders: Let me tell you the danger of
pathetic to people who think they do that argument. It smacks of the arguhave all the answers.
ment that took place in the late twenTo give you an example; is Jessie ties and the early thirties, in GerJackson's presence good or bad? I many. Communists were saying/it
think you would have to be crazy to is better Hitler than the socialists
not understand that Jackson has had because now the air is clear and we
an important impact on the American know which side we are on." There
political scene. I am not a member of are those people who hold that type
the rainbow coalition I am a member of a view.
of the progressive coalition. I do not
Here we have double the voter turagree with Jessie Jackson on all of his nout in the city of Burlington, we
issues by any means and I disagree have involved significant numbers of
with working within the democratic people, this is clearly the most
party. O.K.? But when you have a politically conscious city in the state
person who commands a national au- of Vermont, by many, many times.
dience, talking about Nicaragua, We have increased the voter turnout,
talking about the basic inequities we have educated people about
which exist in our country, talking political issues there are real debates,
about environmental protection or we have started neighborhoodplannthe progressive point of view and ing assemblies. Are we perfect? No.
communicating to millions of peo-' But compare us to who? So to say
ple .... Is this important, or is this not that it is too bad that they got elected,
important? I think it's important.
doubled
the voter
turnout,
But it is much simpler, no question significantly increased voter turnout
about it, dealing on a local level.
because if they had not got elected by
I am not a great fan of the situation God then .... What would have hapin the left today. The left is not in par- pened? Well, I don't know what
ticularly good shape in America, (ob- would have happened. But that is the
viously and it goes without saying) argument that says it is better for bad
and it hasn't been for many, many people to be in office than it is for
years. And one of the things that good people to be in office and I don't
amuses me is that half the people on accept that.
the left spend all their time criticizing Gadfly: Another goal of the Liberty
the other half of the people on the left Union Party spoken about by Todd
and they are all sure they have the Manley, was towards building a
magic way in their particular move- radical party with revolutionary aims
ment to solve all of the problems of instead of reinforcing the reformist
the world. I disagree very strongly democratic party. Could you define
with that and I try to function and those revolutionary aims?
our movement tries to function in as Sanders: Flaming rhetoric Todd usnon-sectari~ way as we can.
edt It is hard for me to go back fifteen
One of the areas that the left in my years. But I am pretty sure I know
view, has not paid enough attention what he was talking about. What we
to, is the whole concept of local were saying then, I say we but we
government. I am disappointed that were different people and I don't
after being mayor of this city for speak for everyone, is that from an
seven years, still as I look around the economic point of view to start with,
state of Vermont, I do not see a this nation has the resources to promovement inany other community in vide a decent standard of living for
this state. And I can not tell you why every man woman and child. Pover-

democracy. Democracy is pretty

r~volutionary.
What democracy
means to the greatest extent possible
is that people have the right to control their own lives.
And again, nobody but an idiot has
.a blueprint of how you bring that
about in a country of two hundred
and thirty million people in a highly
complex economy. We do know a
direction in which we should be moving. Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it means decentralization, in
means 'involving people in their
work. Rather than having bosses and
workers it means having democratic
control over the factories and shops

first place. While Burlington h

.
.
as not
reso Ive d t h e situatIOn
of h
homeless, it has not been for lac~
effort. Within the last three y
'
h
.
ears
BIur ington
as spent more than
450,000 dollars on programs for th
hungry and homeless.
'
e
The issue of GE is a good example
of where my politics differ with those
of some of the left or peace move~ent. My concern with what is going
on at GE, is that I don't believe that
the closing down of the GE plant here
in Burlington, and the throwing of
two thousand people out of work and
the replacement of that plant in the
south with non-union labour, is going
to be a very positive development in
terms of building an anti-war move-

tolerated within the

C'Ul"re.I1t

continued

o~

from page 24

and Israel. joined the Unites State .

.
h
s In
opposing t e resolution calling on all
states to adhere to international

That was last year. On Nove:~r

12, 1987 the U.N. General' Assembly
once' again voted. on that resolun IOn.
(Th 15 was not reported in the press).

This time only one other states joined

the U.S. in opposing it. Since it was
not reported in the press, I'm not cer-

American presidents did reach the

Guatemala City Agreement.
The
events since then have been interesting. If you read the Guatemala
Agre?,ents, you'll discover that they
mention one indispensable element
toward the achievement of peace in
the region. That element is the termmatlOn of any aid on the part of
any regiona
.
I or extra-regional
powers--the United States--to any ir-

Essentially th~ issue in Congress is: (are

the C~ntras) inept or are they successful

ment. In fact the result would be that

you would have two thousand very
bitter people who in fact would probably swing to the right and believe
that the peace movement is out to
destroy their economic existence. Yet
their kids are the ones who can't afford housing. Those workers know
that their kids are the ones who are
going to get killed in the jungles of
Nicaragua. Its not going to be the
college 'kids who are going to go.
Think about it. They know what the
issues are. Around all of the issues,
philosophically
and ideologically
they are opposed

to Reaganism. So I
when .s a result

political: get very discouraged

system? What would be the reaction' of people pointing the finger of guilt
01 the ruling elites nation-wide iI the at them, they suddenly become proLiberty Union or any other third Reagan because they see a segment of
party" s goals were taken up by this city or of this society, threatening
them with their job existence.
Vermonters?
The way to stop the war machine is
Sanders: It is difficult. For example,
taxation. We believe in progressive to change the, government. I think
people lose sight of what the real issue
taxation. The legislature has refused.
Why?
The legislature
gives is. The real issue is power, who has it
cockanany reasons. If we broke the who is using it. And what we know,is
dependence on property taxes, we of course that it is not discussed. How
would be an example. We attempted many demonstrations take place in
a couple of years back to change, to front of the banks, in front of the
restructure electric rates. We were television stations? That is where
shot down. I ran for governor so that power really is, with people who
Vermont could set an example. Ver- have money. Two percent of the
mont could set an example to the rest population controls one third of the
They will
of the nation similar to the type of ex- wealth in this country.
determine
whether,
we
have
afforample Nicaragua is setting for the rest
dable
housing,
they
buy
and
sell
canof Latin America. And yes, the
didates,
democrats
and
republicans,
Reagan administration
would be
they own the media, they own the
concerned.
Gadfly: To get back to the Liberty Burlington Free Press.
The issue is not to me all of the
Union party, why did you leave
good
causes, there are thousands of
L.U.?
good
causes
out there from save the
Sanders: The L.U. was successful to a
whales
on
up.
And they are all right,
ty, racism,
sexism,
could be certain extent in educating people but
and
they
are
all
good. What has got
eliminated. I can't fly to the moon, it we were not successful in bringing
to
develop
is
a
mass movement,
would be silly for me to say that I together large numbers of people.
which
seeks
to
change
the control of
could, but you can have a society That's basically it.
the
economy
from
billionaires,
from
where people have decent housing, Gadfly:What does it do to you moralcorporate
executives,
from
banks
decent income, decent health care, ly to have to take positions that opto a
pose those you believe in? For exam- from large corporations,
decent educational opportunities.
Where you can have people con- ple not being able to take a strong democratic type of society.
trolling their own lives rather than stand on GE's production of the Gadfly:1 think a lot of people are starworking for other people. Fewer peo- Vulcan mini-gun an 'issue that began ting to understand that now but in
ple now control the system than ever in 1983, your decision to back Mon- order to protest the whole system you
before. It is not like the rise of the dale/Feraro in 1984 or the current do have to raise awareness on specific
gigantic corporations but you are see- decision to remove the homeless en- issues. How do you raise issues of
militarism without bringing up GE
ing through the control of - the campment from City Hall Park.
media .... we used to have lots of Sanders:First of all to begin with the and how do you bring up the issue of
media, well now you don't. Increas- issue of the homeless; I get very upset GE without alienating workers?
Sanders: I think you need to do
ingly you have CBS, NBC, ABC, few when people make these accusations.
people with the power, other people Would Madaline Kunin have remov- several things. The last rally held, the
did very well, the
become docile and follow instructions ed them from the lawn of the State Moratorium
You
whether they are workers, TV con- House7 No. Because Kunin would literature was exactly right.
continued on page 19
sumers or consumers in general. So I never have let them be there in the

tain what the other state was, but I

presume it was Israel. [imagine El
Salvador dropped off, giving at least
the formal show of acquiescence to the
Central America Peace Agreement.
That's not even worth reporting in the
U.S. But the day before that, there
was, howver,
a U.N. Gen~'ral
Assembly decision that was worth
noting, and the New York Times correspondent had a long article about it.
That was the U.N condemnation of the
Soviet Union for violating International law by invading Afghanistan.
That's ideologically serviceable, and
therefore worth reporting ....
U.S. Assault on Central America
Peace Agreement
In

August

1987,

the

Central

regular or insurgent forces. And as a

corollary, the states of the region
commit

themsleves

to not

permit

their territory to be used for such

forces for attacking some other country. Actually, that indispensable element was redundant because a higher
authority
than Central American
presidents have already determined
that that is a requirement, namely,
the International Court of Justice.
Just as the United States disregarded the decision of the World Court,
so it has disregarded the Central
American Agreements,
and once
again did so with the complete acquiescence of Congress and of liberal
opnion.
which simply have not
mentioned-or barely mentioned--the
immediate move by the U.S. to
undermine

the accords

the indispensable

force, including continuous penetration of Nicaraguan air space (of

course, 'illegal) on supply flights,
surveillance operations, coordination
of military activites, and so on .... All
of this in a committed and dedicated
and successful effort to ensure that
the accords cannot be implemented,
at least in terms of their actual
content.
The CIA, immediately after the accords were signed, approached
Miskito Indian leaders, offering them
$3,OOO-a-month bribes to continue
the conflict instead of accepting the
peace settlement that was taking
shape in the Atlantic Zone. Again,
not reported; it is again assumed.
Remember, we are assuming that the
.in Congress: are they inept or a-ie United States has the right of forceful
they successful terrorists?
intervention and violence that's acNotice,
incidentally,
that it's cepted on all sides.
agreed on all sides, at least tacitly, the
Contras don't even have the remotest Unmentionables:
Honduras,
El
resemblance to a guerrilla force.
Salvador, Guatemala
Nobody flies daily supply flights to
authentic guerrillas--for example in El
The U.S. client states indicated at
Salvador. No, this is a mercenary aronce that they would not abide by the
my; it's- a proxy army which can be
accords. Honduras, the major United
maintained in the field only by the
States military base, made this quite
overwhelming use of Unites States
continued

continued

d?J1arsare going

Nicaragua. That

The Gadfly Dec. 1, 1987

!O kill

IS

Being a mayor is very very dif-

the people oE

the contrast you ficult. It i~ especially hard because it

is in tne cities and town~ o\. J\:met\ca

Another issue you have to talk where

about is that there are mmions of

workers who are scared to death of
peace. They are afraid of losing their
jobs. So what you need right now is a
massive effort on the part of the
federal government to convert the
weapons factories the whole armaments industry into peaceful production '. It is not easy but that is the
task which has to be undertaken so
the workers will understand. The

.'
.

the

problems

manl.\est

themselves. But on the other hand

the cities and towns do not have the
tools, the financial resources to deal
with these problems. The governor
announced the other day that she has
a twentyfive million dollar surplus
because she has a dozen broad based
taxes. We have the God damned property tax which is a regressive way to
raise revenue. So we have the problems and they have the revenues.

Capitalism as an economic system has to

be radically altered and changed,
average worker here would just as
soon be producing refrigerators as
guns if the wages were the same and
we have got to do that.
Gadfly: How do you counter the
argument that by participating in
electoral politics you are legitimizing
. the system?
Sanders:
You used the example
before about my campaigning for
Mondale which in fact was a very difficult thing to do. So do you know
what you do 7 When I'd go around
talking about Walter Mondale I
would say ihat if elected president, I
felt, Walter Mondale was going to be
a pretty bad president. But I was doing this because I am concerned about
nuclear war and I am concerned
about the destruction of the people of
Nicaragua. And that is why at that
moment I explained that I thought
Mondale would be superior to
Reagan. Of course you are honest
with people! Now sometimes you
may have to make painful decisions.

The Gadfly Dec. 1, 1987

Page 18

Sanders

from page 18

make.
.:

-~'
. -

on page 20

know how you do it? You say to the If you go around saying that Mondale
people, the reason your property would be a great president you would
taxes are so high, the reason you be a liar and a hypocrite. That is not
can"! afford health care, the reason what I was saying. Now there has
that your streets are not paved, the been terrible pain and suffering in
reas~n your ki?s are not getting the Nicaragua, with Mondale, would it
quality education they deserve, is have been any different?
Who can
because of all your God-damn tex say?

by violating

element: For peace in

I ran for governor so that Vermont could

set an example ... to the rest of the nation,

that is so. I can't tell you why in Brattleboro or in South Burlington, there
has not been a greater grassroots
movement to involve people in local
politics. What we have done here in
Burlington among oiher things' is
double the voter turnout. Twice as
many people now vote in local elections as did before I became mayor. I
would love to see that type of movement spread out I would like to see
local government become strong in
the state of Vermont because local
government is a manageable level.
People can be involved. We try and
involve people in the process and we
are a city of forty thousand.
You
have a city of two thousand, you can
involve people, people can serve on
the board of selectpersons. And we
have not done enough of that.

the region.
Immediately after the accords were
signed, the CIA began rapidly increasing its daily level of supply
flights to the forces it maintains in the
field in Nicaragua. They have doubled since September, and they have
probably about tripled by October.
Daily U.S. supply flights, if not more,
were already being flown by the time
of the so-called Spring Offensive that
was designed to cause enough terror
and murder and destruction to what
are called "soft targets," like health
clinics and cooperatives, so as to convince Congress and liberals that the
Contras would be violent and
murderous enough to merit further
funding. That's essentially the issue

terrorists?

We use this office not only to deal with

the day to day problems,., but also as an
educational forum,
to as great a degree as you can. It
means people actually participating
in the political life of their country
rather than sitting back and listening
to thirty second TV adds as a basis
for electing their government.
This was what Todd was talking
about, that we can fundamentally
remake the society to make it a just
society.
And certainly
that
capitalism as an economic system has
got to be radically altered and changed. And that we have to move into a
new type of economic relationship in
order for that to come about.
Gadfly: Are third party candidates

Chomsky

'<:

r :..

_ I'.'

"

, .l'~.'.'

t";

The people look to city hall and

they say, "my god there is problem
three blocks away, do something
about it." So to conclude; I am very
proud of what this city has done in a
wide variety of efforts. We have
made progress not only in cleaning up
the Lake, but in opening up the lake
front to people of all different parts of
the town. There is the bicycle path,
we have increased park facilities, we
have worked on zoning which is going to discourage poor development.
I am proud of many of the things that
we have done. It is too easy to say
"all of that is irrelevant, we know
what the issues are." The real truth is
that you have to spread it out every
single day and do the best that you
can, raise peoples consciousness,
educate people to what are the basic
causes of social problems.
It is not easy. I said before, you are
up against a system which is spending
tens of billions of dollars to lie and to
obfuscate what the real issues are.