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RuthVanita:OnLiterature,SexualityandthePleasureof
PlayingInTheWorld
Mar1
Categories,Interview,WomenandSexuality
Pleasure,Sexuality
ByShwetaKrishnan
RuthVanitaisanacademic,activistandauthor,whospecialisesingenderstudies,lesbianandgay
studiesandSouthAsianliteraryhistory.In1978,shecofoundedManushi:AJournalaboutWomenand
Society.ShehaswrittenabouttheworksofVirginiaWoolf,WilliamShakespeareandUrduPoetsofthe
18thand19thcenturies.Shecoauthored,SameSexLoveinIndiawithSaleemKidwai.Hermostrecent
workisGender,SexandtheCity:UrduRekhtiPoetry17801870.
InthisinterviewbyShwetaKrishnan,shespeaksaboutherwork,herviewsonsexualityandherinterest
ineroticismasplay.
ShwetaKrishnan:Canyoutellusalittlebitaboutyourself?Howdidyoubecomeinterestedin
genderandqueersexualities?
RuthVanita:Iwasinterestedinwomensrightsfromanearlyage.Throughmyworkinthewomens
movementasfoundingcoeditorofManushi,Ibecameinvolvedinthestudyofwomenspredicament,
andreadwidelyaboutgenderandsexualityalthoughthesewerelittlediscussedinthe1980sinIndia.
Simultaneously,asastudentandteacherofEnglishliterature,Igreatlyenjoyedthewaygreatauthors
exploreavarietyofwaystoliveandlove.
SK:Whatdoessexualityreallymean?Thereisatendencytoimaginethatsexualityrefersonlyto
sexualorientationorpreferences,buthowwouldyouexplainsexuality?
RV:Nowordhasjustonemeaning.Freud,rightly,Ithink,saidthatchildrenarepolymorphousintheir
relationtotheworldtheysensuallyenjoyeverythingwithwhichtheycomeincontact.Astheygrowup
theyaretaughtthatsomethingsareforbiddenordirty.Thatistheprocessofbecomingcivilised.Itmay
beanecessaryprocessbutitinvolvesloss.Iaminterestedineroticismasplaythepleasureofplaying
intheworld,whatancienttextscallleela.TheKamasutraviewssexualdesireandpleasurenotas
somethingisolatedfromallotherdesiresandpleasures,butasintegratedwiththem.Itsaysthatagood
loverneedstoknowallthe64arts,everythingfromcookingtoarrangingflowerstodance,music,
cosmetics,dressing,paintingandreadingpoetry.

SK:InaYouTubeInterviewforProjectBolo,you
spokeaboutyourownlifeandsaidyouwerealatebloomer.Ibelievethatwouldresonatewith
severalwomengrowingupinheteronormativesocieties.Whatwouldyousayyoungpeople,
questioningtheirsexualitycoulddo,particularlynowasthereismoreunderstandinganddialogue
aboutalternativesexualities?
RV:Idontlikethetermalternativesexualities.Itsuggeststhatthereisanormandthenthereare
alternativesifyoudontfitthenormordontlikethenorm.SomethinglikevegetarianismintheWest.
Thenormistoeatlargequantitiesofdeadanimalsandthentherearealternativediets.Ithinkwhenone
isyoungoneshouldbeopenoneselftoexperienceandtopleasurewithoutfear,orwithaslittlefearas
possible.
SK:CouldyoutellusalittleaboutyourinterestintheworksofVirginiaWoolfandWilliam
Shakespeareandwhatwecanlearnoffemalesexualityfromtheirwritings?
RV:MyPhDwasonVirginiaWoolfsexplorationoftheeroticlifeandmyfirstpublishedessayon
samesexlovewasaboutRosalindandCeliainShakespearesAsYouLikeIt,aplayItaughtto
undergraduatestudentsatMirandaHouse.IagreewiththinkerslikeColeridge,KeatsandWoolfthatthe
mindandimaginationofagreatwriterispolymorphousandabletoenterintotheexperienceofbeings
entirelydifferentfromhimselforherself.AsKeatssays,Shakespeareisabletodepictexperiencefrom
theperspectiveofasnail.Woolfhad,asweknowfromherletters,passionateloveaffairswithwomen,
andShakespeare,itwouldseemfromhisSonnets,knewallaboutlovebetweenmen.WoolfsMrs
Dalloway,whichIteachnow,containsoneofthemostexquisitedescriptionsofawomansdesirefor
otherwomen(eventhoughthecharacterMrsDallowayhasnotactedonthisdesire)andalsooffemale
orgasm.Shakespeare,inseveralplays,depictsintenserelationshipsbetweenwomen,wholivetogether
andevendieforeachother.
SK:Couldyoualsotellusalittleaboutyourcurrentworkandanynewinsightsyoumighthave
developedontheliteraryhistoryoffemalesexuality?
RV:Mymostrecentbook,Gender,SexandtheCity:UrduRekhtiPoetry17801870isonthedepiction
ofwomenslivesandloves(bothcrosssexandsamesex)inlate18th,early19thcenturyUrdupoetryin
Lucknow.Thisplayful,erotic,funnypoetrylatergetslabelledasobsceneandvirtuallydisappears.I
thinkthattheprecolonialattitudestolifeexpressedinthispoetry,survivetosomedegreeinBombay
cinema.IamnowwritingabookoncourtesansinBombaycinema.Thematrilinealcourtesanhousehold
inprecolonialIndiawasaspacewherewomencouldbehighlyeducated,earnwell,choosetheirown
sexualpartners,andlivewithotherwomen.AfaintshadowofthatlifeappearsinBombaycinema.
SK:Itismyunderstandingthatweoftenunderstandsexualitythroughwhatweseeorread.How
fardoyouthinkbooks,moviesorTVaffectthewayinwhichwe(particularlyyoungpeople)

understandoursexuality?
RV:Ithinkitsnotaonewayprocess.Readersandviewersarenotpassive.Theychoosewhattoread
andwhattoseeornottoreadandnottosee.Also,differentindividualshaveverydifferentexperiences
ofthesamebookormovie.Notallwomenloveorhatethesamebooksormovies.
SK:Inpopularbooks,poetryandinmovies,womenareoftencastasobjectsofthemalegazeand
maledesire.Butconsideringwedohavealternativetextsandviews,howdowepopularisethese?

HindiMovieActorMadhubalainherRoom
PhotographedbyJamesBurkeforLife
Magazine1951
RV:Idontthinkthereisanysuchthingasonemalegaze.Thatsanoutdatedtheory.Abeautifulor
desirablewomaninamovie,say,Madhubala,isnotadmiredordesiredonlybystraightmalespectators.
Plentyofgaymenalsolovesuchfemalecharacters.Andsodomostwomen.Sexualityisnotabsolutely
fixedandrigid.Evenapredominantlyheterosexualwomancouldenjoywatchingabeautifulwoman
perform.Andofcourselesbiansmightenjoythistoo.Istheresuchathingasalesbiangazethatis
somehowcompletelydifferentfromastraightmalegaze?Idontthinkso.Itisimpossibletomeasure
desire.Desireisofitsverynature,fluidandeverchanging.Furthermore,Ithinkthecanon(ofEnglish
literature,ofUrduliterature,ofBombaycinemaandsoon)iswonderfullyhomoeroticaswellas
heteroerotic.Imnotsurewhatcountsasanalternativetextandwhatdoesnt,butIpersonallyfind
plentyofcanonicaltextsveryerotic,forexample,ShakespearessonnetsorGhalibsorInshasghazals
orsongsanddancesinmoviesofthe50s,60s,and70s.Iseverytextbyagaypersonalternative?And
howdoweknowexactlywhowasgayorwhowasntinthepastwhensuchwordsandcategorieswere
notwidelyused?Ithinkweshouldquitworryingaboutwhatisalternativeandwhatisnt,andjustenjoy
whatweenjoy.Itstimetorelaxandshedsomeoftheseironcladtheoriesandformulae.
SK:Dofemaleauthorstendtowritedifferentlyfrommaleauthorsaboutfemalesexuality?Also
howimportantisittohearwhatwomenhavetosay,andforwomensvoicestobepublished?
Thereisnoevidencethatfemaleauthorswritedifferentlyfrommaleonesaboutfemalesexuality.Several
experimentshavebeenconductedtoseewhetherreaderscandistinguishafemaleauthoredtextfroma
maleauthoredoneandthemajorityofreaders(maleandfemale,straightandgay)failtodoso.Insha,
RanginandJurat,theUrdupoetsIwriteaboutandtranslateinmylatestbook,writewithwonderful
lyricismanderoticismaboutmalemale,malefemaleandfemalefemalesexualrelationships,in
particularthelast.
Womenhavehistoricallynothadequalopportunitiestowriteandbepublishedasmenhave.Ofcourse,

mostmenhavenothadthatopportunityeither.AsWoolfwroteinARoomofOnesOwn,onecan
countonthefingersofonehandthenumberofmenfromworkingbackgroundswhodidnotattend
universityyetwereabletowriteandbewidelyread.Butwomenevenofupperclasseshadless
opportunitytowriteandbereadthantheirpeershad.Soobviouslyitisimportantthatallthosewhowish
towritehavetheopportunitytodoso.Timeisthebesttestofwhoactuallywriteswell.
SK:InyourbookSameSexLoveInIndia,youwriteabouthowqueernessisnotnecessarilya
westernoramodernconstruct.Canyouexplainwhyweseemtothinkitisamodern,western
construct?
Wedidnotusethewordqueernessinthatbook.Wewrotethatsamesexlovehasbeenwidelywritten
aboutinIndianandotherAsiansocietiesbutthisparticularaspectofliteraryhistoryhasbeencoveredup
orforgotteninthemodernera.WhenEuropeancoloniserscametoIndia,manyofthemwereshocked
(thoughsomeweredelighted)bythevarietyofsexualarrangementsthattheyfoundhere,andthefact
thatsamesexdesirewasnotunspeakableinIndiaasitwasintheWest.Infact,itwasveryopenly
writtenabout.Forexample,LordByronintheearly19thcenturyhadtochangehetosheinhispoems
beforepublishingthembuthiscontemporariesinLucknowwroteexplicitlyaboutsexualandamorous
relationsbetweenmen.Atthistime,sodomywaspunishablewithdeathinmostpartsofEurope,butin
Indianosuchlawexisted.After1857whentheBritishofficiallytookovertheIndiangovernment,they
changedthelawsandtheeducationsystem.ThisiswhentheyintroducedSection377whichwearestill
strugglingwithtoday,andwhichtheygotridoflongagoinEngland.
DefeatedIndianelites,bothMuslimsandHindus,triedtoremakethemselvesintheimageofthe
conquerors.Partofthismakeoverwaserasingallsexualarrangementsexceptheterosexualmonogamy.
Polygamy,polyandry,courtesans,samesexrelationsallhadtodisappear.Bythe1920ssamesexdesire
hadbecomeunspeakable.WhenHindiwriterUgra,whosestoriesIhavetranslated,wroteaboutmale
maledesireinthe1920s,hewastoldbyalmosteveryeducatedpersonheknewthatthiswasasubject
nevertobementioned.Fromthe1820stothe1920sthisseachangehadcomeaboutinIndianeducated
society.Bythe1960sEuropeanswerechangingtheirminds.Theyabolishedsodomylawsandtoday
mostWesterndemocracieshaveendowedgaypeoplewithfullcivilrights.SoIndianstoday,mostof
whomunfortunatelyknownexttonothingaboutourownhistoryorliterature,nowimaginethat
homosexualitycamefromtheWest(becauseitisnowrelativelymorevisiblethere)andwasunknownin
India(becauseithadbeenrenderedinvisibleinIndiabythemid20thcentury).Thisishowculturescan
undergo360degreechangesandbecomeabsolutelytheoppositeofwhattheywereacenturyearlier.
SK:Onsocialmedia,itisnotuncommontojustifyorrationalisesexualpreferencesand
orientationbyreferringtothePuranasortheHinduEpics.Howdoweusethesetextswithout
fallingintothetrapofHindunationalism?
Thisquestionisagoodexampleofourpostcolonialpredicament.Soshatteredisourselfconfidencethat
weareconstantlydefensive,tryingtoguardourselvesagainstimaginarytraps.ChristianandJewish
scholarshavenohesitationinrereadingtheBibleandotherreligioustextssuchassaintsstoriestofind
positiveimagesofsamesexrelationships.Thatisbecausetheydonotthinktheirreligionbelongsonlyto
fundamentalistsnordotheythinkthatiftheyseeanythingpositiveintheirtraditiontheywillsomehow
fallintothetrapoffundamentalism.Quitethecontrary.
IthinkmosteducatedIndianshavetosomedegreeinternalisedcolonialcontemptforHindusas
backward,primitive,misogynistidolaters.Ifwenowreadourownliterature(howmanyHindushave
actuallyreadasinglePuranaorepicintheoriginaloreventhewholetextintranslation?)weareafraid
ofbeinglabelledHindunationalists(andwithgoodreason,becausemanyofourfriendsoracquaintances
mayactuallylabelusthisway).IdontreadPuranasorepicstojustifyorrationaliseanything.Idont

thinkanyjustificationorrationalisationisnecessary.Ireadourliteratureinordertoeducatemyselfon
myowntradition.Ifthetraditionhappenstobelargelypositiveaboutdesire,weshouldknowthat
insteadofimaginingotherwise.Andwewillknowthatonlyifwefirstfamiliariseourselveswithour
traditionsfromwhichwehavebeenalienatedbyourcolonialpast.
Ifwesetouttouseagreatworkofliterature,wearealreadyinatrapfromwhichitwillbehardtoget
out.Aliteraryworkisnotapotorpantobeused.Itexiststoilluminateandtodelight.Ireadtheepics
andUpanishadsforenjoymentbecausetheygivejoythatnothingelsecangiveinquitethesameway,
ananda.IamnowreadingandrereadingtheUpanishadsintheoriginalalongwithmanytranslations
suchastheIrishpoetYeatssbeautifultranslation,whichhedidwithPurohitSwami.
Tweet

ShwetaKrishnan
AfeministwriterandmultimediaproducerbasedinChennai,India.Shehasabackgroundinclinical
medicineandmedicaljournalism.Throughherworksheexplorestheintersectionofgender,religion
andclass.Shealsoworksfortheinclusionofahumanrightsframeworkintopublichealthservices.

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