Ok,

So to Jake and all, I apologize for such obsessive questioning I have a good
excuse: I want to get it right!

So, as discussed in my last message, the next new moon falling on a Tuesday
is this upcoming March the 16th after that the next one isn't until August
10th! Now, at the very least I will either purchase a wood handled knife on
the 16th ( I've found a great one at a store nearby, so hopefully it's still there
on the 16th) , and I'll simply have to wait until August to prepare it, unless
you guys think it's ok to engrave it then and then prepare it another day
( meaning other than August 10th) as I wont have an asperser and aspergilius
ready until after the 16th . This raises another issue though: I haven't seen
any mention in the book of what is to be used to engrave the wands, the
knives or the asperser vessel ! What did you guys use to engrave it? Just any
old dremmel, irrespective of when it was purchased, and without any prep
done to it? And of course, what the hell did you all use in place of mole blood
and juice of pimpernel for `quenching' the other knife ( the one used for the
circle and cutting the wands).

IF it were spring, I could perhaps find a pimpernel somewhere around here,

and crush a number of them it and use the juice.. but that would still leave
me without moles blood and what the hell is mole blood anyways, if it's not
blood from a little varmint?

For Virgin Spun thread, I'm at a loss! Daniel posted ( Jan 5th '09) that he
acquired some, but no mention of where BUT I thought that perhaps I could
place some silk thread ( if I can find it in white or black) and either and/or
wrap it around a Sun Talisman ( cause it says in the book that the spirits of
the Three have an affinity with spirits of the sun) or place it on my ancestor
altar for 3 days and say prayers over it.

I've decided that I am going to probably end up growing some Mint, Marjoram
and Rosemary for the aspergillus, but that will of course take a while so for
now, for the prep of the instruments, I'll buy pre-cut stalks of the three at the
supermarket. When I grow it, I'll either pay someone at a community garden
to do it, or hook up three little pots on the inside of my window sill.

And while I have your attentions ;-) are we to wear the figure of the Spirit
whose Spirits we are going to pact with for a certain amount of time before
we begin the manufacture of the instruments, or before we actually do the
conjuration? It would make sense to me that it is to be done before the actual
conjuration, as the instruments would be used theoretically eventually for the
Spirits of all three of the Big Three but things are trickier then they seem,
and for all I know we are supposed to make separate instruments for each of
the Big Three!

So, there you are!

The quick version of my questions for this round are:

Virgin thread source or substitute?

Pimpernal and Moles blood WTF?

Graver no mention in the book ( that I've seen) so any tips re what to use
and if special prep is needed?

Sacrificial knife engrave it on the day purchased and then asperse it another
random day? Or Engrave it the same day it is aspersed and wait to do so
when the moon is again new on a Tuesday?

Wearing the figure of the Spirit for how long, and before either the beginning
of the manufacture of the instruments, or before the date of the conjuration?

Hopefully these posts are helpful to other members In the same place I am in
terms of prep work

- Ray ( who has changed his name due to privacy concerns re nosy muggles)

On 8 March 2010 05:00, neptunetrinemoon <neptunetrinemoon@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Ok,
> So to Jake and all, I apologize for such obsessive questioning I have a
good excuse: I want to get it right!
>

s'okay Ray, you're obviously putting energy in too. ;)

> So, as discussed in my last message, the next new moon falling on a
Tuesday is this upcoming March the 16th after that the next one isn't until
August 10th! Now, at the very least

New Moon/Crescent Moon are interchangeable terms in these old books.

Read it as 'increasing after New Moon' and you'll find such Tuesdays
are not quite so rare.

> I will either purchase a wood handled knife on the 16th ( I've found a great
one at a store nearby, so hopefully it's still there on the 16th) , and I'll simply
have to wait until August to prepare it, unless you guys think it's ok to
engrave it then and then prepare it another day ( meaning other than August
10th)

see above,

> as I wont have an asperser and aspergilius ready until after the 16th .

}8^>

>This raises another issue though: I haven't seen any mention in the book of
what is to be used to engrave the wands, the knives or the asperser vessel !
What did you guys use to engrave it?

the knife, it has no sigils on its handle because it is the 1st tool,
the one you make sigils with. Or you can use a burin, which I just
happen to have one of, prepared years ago according to instructions of
the KoS, but that's another story.

> Just any old dremmel, irrespective of when it was purchased, and without
any prep done to it? And of course, what the hell did you all use in place of
mole blood and juice of pimpernel for `quenching' the other knife ( the one
used for the circle and cutting the wands).

well, as you're not making it yourself, there's not a lot of need for
quenching... ;)

pimpernel is interesting stuff mind, must be as I happen to have some

in the kitchen - and the mole is a beast of Saturn, which might be
worth knowing for selecting substitutes should you want to have some
mix for a token quench..

> IF it were spring, I could perhaps find a pimpernel somewhere around here,
and crush a number of them it and use the juice.. but that would still leave
me without moles blood

see above, pimpernel is a sort of magical herbalism staple, be worth

some hoodoo research.

>and what the hell is mole blood anyways, if it's not blood from a little
varmint?

it is, blood quenching of newly tempered metal is an extremely ancient

practice.

> For Virgin Spun thread, I'm at a loss! Daniel posted ( Jan 5th '09) that he
acquired some, but no mention of where BUT I thought that perhaps I could
place some silk thread ( if I can find it in white or black) and either and/or
wrap it around a Sun Talisman ( cause it says in the book that the spirits of
the Three have an affinity with spirits of the sun) or place it on my ancestor
altar for 3 days and say prayers over it.
>

why not, or buy a religious/magical pendant or similar on a cord and

use the cord.

> I've decided that I am going to probably end up growing some Mint,
Marjoram and Rosemary for the aspergillus, but that will of course take a
while

'there are means and means', buy the herbs at the right time, pour
boiling water over them and let it infuse - the results are - if
anything - better than the sprinkler, you can then flick this around
with your fingers. Unless an aspergillus happens to turn up.

>so for now, for the prep of the instruments, I'll buy pre-cut stalks of the
three at the supermarket. When I grow it, I'll either pay someone at a
community garden to do it, or hook up three little pots on the inside of my
window sill.
>

now that's smart thinking, I'm guessing you currently live in a

flat/apartment. I used to have a herb garden, but now I live in a town
flat I've taken on an allotment for growing herbs (lots of herbs!)

> And while I have your attentions ;-) are we to wear the figure of the Spirit
whose Spirits we are going to pact with for a certain amount of time before
we begin the manufacture of the instruments, or before we actually do the
conjuration? It would make sense to me that it is to be done before the actual
conjuration, as the instruments would be used theoretically eventually for the
Spirits of all three of the Big Three but things are trickier then they seem,
and for all I know we are supposed to make separate instruments for each of
the Big Three!

Hey champ, one set of instruments will do! It doesn't say so but wear
the sigil - of a relevant chief or deputy - for as long as possible
before hand, I took to wearing pocketed shirts for this, and when
going to bed put the shirt under my pillow (nothing like an article of
clothing sticking out to remind you to put it back on in the morning).
A week, two weeks, even a month, (all divisions of lunar time, more or
less).

> So, there you are!

>

> The quick version of my questions for this round are:

>
> Virgin thread source or substitute?

your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant

(unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy virgin...)

> Pimpernal and Moles blood WTF?

non-essential, but worth researching and thinking about the symbolism.

> Graver no mention in the book ( that I've seen) so any tips re what to
use and if special prep is needed?

the smaller of the two knives.

> Sacrificial knife engrave it on the day purchased and then asperse it
another random day? Or Engrave it the same day it is aspersed and wait to
do so when the moon is again new on a Tuesday?

assuming you have all the kit at once, you can do it the same day
(maybe a subsequent hour of Mars) or if not possible, another such day
& hour with crescent (= increasing) Moon.

> Wearing the figure of the Spirit for how long, and before either the
beginning of the manufacture of the instruments, or before the date of the
conjuration?
>

certainly in advance of the conjuration - wouldn't hurt if it preceded

at least some of the instruments (not all of course, as some are
needed to make it).

> Hopefully these posts are helpful to other members In the same place I am
in terms of prep work

make sure and keep this message handy!

> - Ray ( who has changed his name due to privacy concerns re nosy
muggles)

noted.

ALWays

Jake

Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

Show message history

New Moon/Crescent Moon are interchangeable terms in these old books.
I think it is a little more than interchangeable: what we call the New Moon
was not considered such, probably not until the Roman period, or maybe not
until Ptolemy (around 200 AD I believe). Astrology used to be completely
observational, and the Babylonians left a very clear record of how things were
done. Things mattered like the first star or planet to appear at night, and the
last to disappear in the morning, the helical phenomena, phases, retrogrades,

whether a planet was visible or invisible (and when it would reappear after its
period of invisibility - things like that made up the core of their system. The
month began on the New Moon, and by this, they specifically meant the first
appearance of the Lunar crescent after the dark of the Moon. There are
various mythological and metaphysical reasons and rhymes for this. One of
the best current sources in the world for understanding their system is
Rumen Kolev. You can google him.

If one feels a need to be exact, math is required, because these phenomena

are specific to your longitude and latitude. Some think clouds or other sky
positions affected the quality of the New Moon as well. Until the Greeks came
along with their obsession with symmetry, no one would have thought of
calculating the exact moment of the Sun and Moon reaching the same
zodiacal degree as the New Moon, because that (the syzygy) was considered
a different phenomenon; let's say that they were significant when they were
eclipses. The easiest way to deal with this is to think in terms of nature. We
generally divide up the daylight and evening hours as they appear in nature.
Much of the work we do has to do with nature. So why jump to an idealized
and artificial consideration when it comes to something as obvious as the
Moon? That's my reasoning anyway.

> > Virgin thread source or substitute?

>
> your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant
> (unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy virgin...)

I use a woven silk cord procured from and specially blessed by Tibetan
Buddhist monks - these blessing cords are usually given to devotees to tie
around their neck or wrist after a vajrayana ceremony or vow taking
ceremony. Many Tibetan buddhist centers hand these out to interested
people, so if you have a centre near you, it might be worth investigating. I
happened to have had two that were given to me by friends. It certainly
seems to fit the virgin thread category in my book!

I 'quenched' my blade with my own blood. The mole's saturnian association

didn't occur to me, but seeing as the operator's blood is called for with some
regularity, it seemed that it would be a good substitute for this gesture in any
case. I looked at this more as an offering to the spirits with regards to my
sincerity in the tool's consecration than a true quenching of the blade, which
would obviously require metalwork!

St.B
http://gnostic-conjure.blogspot.com/

Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

Show message history

I should have been a little more specific, but it was very late. The syzygy (the
point where the Sun and Moon are in the same "degree" of the ecliptic) has
been called the New Moon in very old texts (like the Uruk Omen text etc.), but
the Babylonian month starts with the first appearance of the New Crescent,
and no activities that one desired success in were begun until that first
crescent was visible. To them, the day started at Sunset, and this tradition
was translated into the Hebrews as well. The Hindus measure the 12 degree
separations of the Sun and Moon as Tithis, and consider the same time as
being unfavorable for beginning new activities as well. Some destructive acts
are favored under certain constellation/weekday combinations, and there are
other astrological factors that neutralize an unfavorable combination (Yoga)
involving the New Moon. But going back to the first crescent, these 12 degree
separations let us know that the day after the calendar New Moon is going to
be, at least some of the time, the appearance of the first crescent. It appears
somewhere around 15 degrees away from the Sun (the greater the
separation, the more favorable the month).

Since the Moon moves an average of 13 degrees a day, unless the time of the
New Moon is after noon, chances are good the next day will be the first
crescent. The Moon moves faster in some signs than others, but all of the
astrological guidebooks with an ephemeris give the "daily motion", to give
you a round figure you can rely on to experiment with the first crescent and

the beginning of the Babylonian/Hebrew month. If we think about the

shamanistic cultures, they would work on the basis of visual phenomena
related to the sky, but how much can we really know about that? Apparently
Jerome Cardan had it right when he separated the New Moon (Syzygy) from
the "orison", but that particular part of his work did not catch on too well,
since the majority of astrologers were following Arabic/Ptolemaic,
Aristotelian/idealistic methods by then.

Roy

Hi Roy,

thanks for the quality posts. The most detailed Solomonic astrology is
in KoS, it advocates astrological knowledge, but gives the
practitioner advice that is very much days and hours with Moon in an
appropriate sign, which is considered adequate. For real astrological
grimoire work the only major example is the Picatrix, which is on a
completely different level; by comparison the Solomonic literature is
very much 'rule of thumb'. Much as I approve of astrology to optimise
results, the absence of ideal conditions should not leave the magician
without recourse.

Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

Hide message history
Much as I approve of astrology to optimise
results, the absence of ideal conditions should not leave the magician
without recourse.
Agreed 100%! Unless one is doing strictly astrological workings as in Picatrix,
IMHO a glance at the sky or the calendar is all that is really needed. I've

always been about working with nature, and there is always a way: my
guestimation method is simple, though - if the (local) "New Moon" (Syzygy)
falls well before Sunset on day A, then the crescent will most likely appear on
day B (at Sunset). If it happens near or after Sunset on day A, then catch the
wave on day C. These are days that begin at Sunset. The Hindus have some
very interesting rules for using their almanac to select the best time for
activities - getting into the "every act is a magical act" idea made this a
pretty natural thing for me to investigate years ago - but when you get into
their actual systems of magic, the timing and practices may deviate
completely from the astrological method. Same with the Tibetans.
that is to say, when it says New Moon in the grims, it means crescent,
and by crescent it means increasing from New. Originally this may have
been close in meaning to your definition, but it is best taken to give
some leeway, so that operations specified for a Tuesday and Wednesday
can be performed on consecutive days, rather than in consecutive
months.
Thanks for that. I need to say that I am coming off a long-term anti-Grimoire
bias. I got fed up with the religiosity (even among translators and members of
the cult of the most charismatic leader etc.) and stuff like the above, which I
thought was just getting in the way. I thought many magicians were creating
a library of ready-made excuses for why their magick isn't working, because
that's all many folks I attempted to "fellowship" with had. I spent many years
wondering while no one had pieced together the basically universal nature of
spiritism, and the similarity of magical tradition around the world. That's what
attracted me to the group here. Thanks to the research of brilliant
practitioners like yourself, I've let go of most of that bias and am back into
the Grimoire Tradition again.
see above, New Moon, as the ephemeris defines it, is not what is intended.
The whole idea of universal calendars and time systems, IMHO, is kind of
problematic for magickal practice, because it enforces "unnatural" rhythms
on people and sets us up with subconscious expectations that mess with our
heads (like old enough to drink, it's going to happen too soon LOL) - this
includes the ephemeris which is a one-parent child of the divorce of
observational astrology from mathematical astrology. Fortunately it isn't too
traumatized to get useful information from, if you know where to look.
in 'rule of thumb' 12 degrees is approx 24 hours, and this is possibly

better practice than almost immediately after New Moon. Just the same,
when looking for a window of opportunity, some hours after New for
beginning and a window of some days (ie, before 1st quarter, when Moon
is no longer 'crescent') to complete some tasks is likely closer to
the spirit of these Anglo/European texts.

ALWays

Jake
In the study of the link between the breath, prana, and the Moon the Pandits
of India use the rule that days 1, 2, and 3 are the favorable days after the
calculated New Moon. Favorable, in this case, means that the Lunar current
(Ida, one of the three main channels of the "Psychic Nervous System") is
dominant at Sunrise, which enables you to take advantage of the Moon's
regulation of solar energy etc - all Yoga metaphysics. This has nothing to do
with birthchart astrology, etc. this is about working with the two main
currents of Prana - which run in synch with the Solunar rhythm. But that's
their metaphysics.

I can see a situation where the 3rd day could be the 1st crescent, if the Moon
is in a slow part of the zodiac and the astrological New Moon fell shortly
before local sunrise - in which case the First Crescent would be at a great
distance from the Sun, making it a very favorable month according to the
Babylonians. I believe that's how that lore got into the grimoires - when I look
east at sunset after the New Moon and there is no crescent (if there is
adequate visibility), the next day should be good for a powerful operation, if
there is a crescent, time to whip out the words and fire.

I like to think of using the environment in this way as part of one's offering to
the spirits, in that a "good" lunar tide may mean something special to them,
just as certain aromas and sounds do. I don't know, but my magick
operations have always been more effective at those times and other days
that follow solunar current theory (not the waxing/waning theory). I should
imagine that after introduction and agreements have been made, one could
make calls for "aggressive" or "fiery" purposes on days when the Solar

current dominates and so on. I think it's a worthwhile experiment to try at

some point, after I talk to some of them about it.

Thanks,

Roy

Hi Roy,

thanks for the quality posts. The most detailed Solomonic astrology is
in KoS, it advocates astrological knowledge, but gives the
practitioner advice that is very much days and hours with Moon in an
appropriate sign, which is considered adequate. For real astrological
grimoire work the only major example is the Picatrix, which is on a
completely different level; by comparison the Solomonic literature is
very much 'rule of thumb'. Much as I approve of astrology to optimise
results, the absence of ideal conditions should not leave the magician
without recourse.

Hide message history

On 8 March 2010 22:21, Roy <roy@...> wrote:
> Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

>> New Moon/Crescent Moon are interchangeable terms in these old books.

that is to say, when it says New Moon in the grims, it means crescent,
and by crescent it means increasing from New. Originally this may have

been close in meaning to your definition, but it is best taken to give

some leeway, so that operations specified for a Tuesday and Wednesday
can be performed on consecutive days, rather than in consecutive
months.

> I should have been a little more specific, but it was very late. The syzygy
(the point where the Sun and Moon are in the same "degree" of the ecliptic)
has been called the New Moon in very old texts (like the Uruk Omen text
etc.), but the Babylonian month starts with the first appearance of the New
Crescent, and no activities that one desired success in were begun until that
first crescent was visible.

see above, New Moon, as the ephemeris defines it, is not what is intended.

> To them, the day started at Sunset, and this tradition was translated into
the Hebrews as well. The Hindus measure the 12 degree separations of the
Sun and Moon as Tithis, and consider the same time as being unfavorable for
beginning new activities as well.

in 'rule of thumb' 12 degrees is approx 24 hours, and this is possibly

better practice than almost immediately after New Moon. Just the same,
when looking for a window of opportunity, some hours after New for
beginning and a window of some days (ie, before 1st quarter, when Moon
is no longer 'crescent') to complete some tasks is likely closer to
the spirit of these Anglo/European texts.

ALWays

Jake

>Some destructive acts are favored under certain constellation/weekday

combinations, and there are other astrological factors that neutralize an
unfavorable combination (Yoga) involving the New Moon. But going back to
the first crescent, these 12 degree separations let us know that the day after
the calendar New Moon is going to be, at least some of the time, the
appearance of the first crescent. It appears somewhere around 15 degrees
away from the Sun (the greater the separation, the more favorable the
month).
>
> Since the Moon moves an average of 13 degrees a day, unless the time of
the New Moon is after noon, chances are good the next day will be the first
crescent. The Moon moves faster in some signs than others, but all of the
astrological guidebooks with an ephemeris give the "daily motion", to give
you a round figure you can rely on to experiment with the first crescent and
the beginning of the Babylonian/Hebrew month. If we think about the
shamanistic cultures, they would work on the basis of visual phenomena
related to the sky, but how much can we really know about that? Apparently
Jerome Cardan had it right when he separated the New Moon (Syzygy) from
the "orison", but that particular part of his work did not catch on too well,
since the majority of astrologers were following Arabic/Ptolemaic,
Aristotelian/idealistic methods by then.
>
> Roy
>

Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

Hide message history
Much as I approve of astrology to optimise
results, the absence of ideal conditions should not leave the magician
without recourse.
Agreed 100%! Unless one is doing strictly astrological workings as in Picatrix,
IMHO a glance at the sky or the calendar is all that is really needed. I've

always been about working with nature, and there is always a way: my
guestimation method is simple, though - if the (local) "New Moon" (Syzygy)
falls well before Sunset on day A, then the crescent will most likely appear on
day B (at Sunset). If it happens near or after Sunset on day A, then catch the
wave on day C. These are days that begin at Sunset. The Hindus have some
very interesting rules for using their almanac to select the best time for
activities - getting into the "every act is a magical act" idea made this a
pretty natural thing for me to investigate years ago - but when you get into
their actual systems of magic, the timing and practices may deviate
completely from the astrological method. Same with the Tibetans.
that is to say, when it says New Moon in the grims, it means crescent,
and by crescent it means increasing from New. Originally this may have
been close in meaning to your definition, but it is best taken to give
some leeway, so that operations specified for a Tuesday and Wednesday
can be performed on consecutive days, rather than in consecutive
months.
Thanks for that. I need to say that I am coming off a long-term anti-Grimoire
bias. I got fed up with the religiosity (even among translators and members of
the cult of the most charismatic leader etc.) and stuff like the above, which I
thought was just getting in the way. I thought many magicians were creating
a library of ready-made excuses for why their magick isn't working, because
that's all many folks I attempted to "fellowship" with had. I spent many years
wondering while no one had pieced together the basically universal nature of
spiritism, and the similarity of magical tradition around the world. That's what
attracted me to the group here. Thanks to the research of brilliant
practitioners like yourself, I've let go of most of that bias and am back into
the Grimoire Tradition again.
see above, New Moon, as the ephemeris defines it, is not what is intended.
The whole idea of universal calendars and time systems, IMHO, is kind of
problematic for magickal practice, because it enforces "unnatural" rhythms
on people and sets us up with subconscious expectations that mess with our
heads (like old enough to drink, it's going to happen too soon LOL) - this
includes the ephemeris which is a one-parent child of the divorce of
observational astrology from mathematical astrology. Fortunately it isn't too
traumatized to get useful information from, if you know where to look.
in 'rule of thumb' 12 degrees is approx 24 hours, and this is possibly

better practice than almost immediately after New Moon. Just the same,
when looking for a window of opportunity, some hours after New for
beginning and a window of some days (ie, before 1st quarter, when Moon
is no longer 'crescent') to complete some tasks is likely closer to
the spirit of these Anglo/European texts.

ALWays

Jake
In the study of the link between the breath, prana, and the Moon the Pandits
of India use the rule that days 1, 2, and 3 are the favorable days after the
calculated New Moon. Favorable, in this case, means that the Lunar current
(Ida, one of the three main channels of the "Psychic Nervous System") is
dominant at Sunrise, which enables you to take advantage of the Moon's
regulation of solar energy etc - all Yoga metaphysics. This has nothing to do
with birthchart astrology, etc. this is about working with the two main
currents of Prana - which run in synch with the Solunar rhythm. But that's
their metaphysics.

I can see a situation where the 3rd day could be the 1st crescent, if the Moon
is in a slow part of the zodiac and the astrological New Moon fell shortly
before local sunrise - in which case the First Crescent would be at a great
distance from the Sun, making it a very favorable month according to the
Babylonians. I believe that's how that lore got into the grimoires - when I look
east at sunset after the New Moon and there is no crescent (if there is
adequate visibility), the next day should be good for a powerful operation, if
there is a crescent, time to whip out the words and fire.

I like to think of using the environment in this way as part of one's offering to
the spirits, in that a "good" lunar tide may mean something special to them,
just as certain aromas and sounds do. I don't know, but my magick
operations have always been more effective at those times and other days
that follow solunar current theory (not the waxing/waning theory). I should
imagine that after introduction and agreements have been made, one could
make calls for "aggressive" or "fiery" purposes on days when the Solar

current dominates and so on. I think it's a worthwhile experiment to try at

some point, after I talk to some of them about it.

Thanks,

Roy

--- In Grimorium_Verum@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent

<jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
>

> > I've decided that I am going to probably end up growing some Mint,
Marjoram and Rosemary for the aspergillus, but that will of course take a
while
>
> 'there are means and means', buy the herbs at the right time, pour
> boiling water over them and let it infuse - the results are - if
> anything - better than the sprinkler, you can then flick this around
> with your fingers. Unless an aspergillus happens to turn up.

I see where the GV instructs creating the asperser at the day/hour of Mercury
(pp.100), and that the aspergillus is made at the same hour, but I did not
notice where the GV requires the herbs to be acquired in this hour?
How exactly is the aspergillus made? My impression is that the herbs are
wrapped in the thread and then soaked in the water.
Thanks in advance for any corrections or suggestions.

> > And while I have your attentions ;-) are we to wear the figure of the

Spirit whose Spirits we are going to pact with for a certain amount of time
before we begin the manufacture of the instruments, or before we actually do
the conjuration? It would make sense to me that it is to be done before the
actual conjuration, as the instruments would be used theoretically eventually
for the Spirits of all three of the Big Three but things are trickier then they
seem, and for all I know we are supposed to make separate instruments for
each of the Big Three!
>
> Hey champ, one set of instruments will do! It doesn't say so but wear
> the sigil - of a relevant chief or deputy - for as long as possible
> before hand, I took to wearing pocketed shirts for this, and when
> going to bed put the shirt under my pillow (nothing like an article of
> clothing sticking out to remind you to put it back on in the morning).
> A week, two weeks, even a month, (all divisions of lunar time, more or
> less).
>
>
> > So, there you are!
>>
> > The quick version of my questions for this round are:
>>
> > Virgin thread source or substitute?
>
> your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant
> (unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy virgin...)

I am curious as to how an article created in a Christian context could be

acceptable to the Chiefs when used for different purposes?

>
> > Pimpernal and Moles blood WTF?
>
> non-essential, but worth researching and thinking about the symbolism.
>
> > Graver no mention in the book ( that I've seen) so any tips re
what to use and if special prep is needed?
>
> the smaller of the two knives.
>
> > Sacrificial knife engrave it on the day purchased and then asperse it
another random day? Or Engrave it the same day it is aspersed and wait to
do so when the moon is again new on a Tuesday?
>
> assuming you have all the kit at once, you can do it the same day
> (maybe a subsequent hour of Mars) or if not possible, another such day
> & hour with crescent (= increasing) Moon.
>
> > Wearing the figure of the Spirit for how long, and before either the
beginning of the manufacture of the instruments, or before the date of the
conjuration?
>>
>
> certainly in advance of the conjuration - wouldn't hurt if it preceded
> at least some of the instruments (not all of course, as some are
> needed to make it).

Would this character / sigil be made with consecrated parchment, ink and
pen?

If the intention is to work with a spirit on the third level, would the sigils of
the Deputy and Chief also be included?

Thanks in advance

On 23 May 2012 07:03, ioc178 <ioc178@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Grimorium_Verum@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent
> <jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:
>>
>
> > > I've decided that I am going to probably end up growing some Mint,
> > > Marjoram and Rosemary for the aspergillus, but that will of course take
a
> > > while
>>
> > 'there are means and means', buy the herbs at the right time, pour
> > boiling water over them and let it infuse - the results are - if
> > anything - better than the sprinkler, you can then flick this around
> > with your fingers. Unless an aspergillus happens to turn up.
>

> I see where the GV instructs creating the asperser at the day/hour of
> Mercury (pp.100), and that the aspergillus is made at the same hour, but I
> did not notice where the GV requires the herbs to be acquired in this hour?

the instructions above don't involve an aspergillus, its an infusion

to replace it, so you use the same timing as if you were making one.

> How exactly is the aspergillus made? My impression is that the herbs are
> wrapped in the thread and then soaked in the water.
> Thanks in advance for any corrections or suggestions.

in the Key of Solomon sprigs of herbs are tied to a handle, which is

how I do it (using the KoS sigils on the handle) - but they're just as
good tied together. It isn't an infusion method, so they don't have to
be soaked, they simply collect water when dipped in, which you then
sprinkle around. Personally though I like to infuse the herbs, it is
much stronger that way.
>>
> > your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant
> > (unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy virgin...)
>
> I am curious as to how an article created in a Christian context could be
> acceptable to the Chiefs when used for different purposes?

because it works? ;p

alternatively, find yourself a virgin spinner (good luck on that!)

holy is holy and a good alternative to virginity - my guys are happy

with me trooping round Christian cemeteries. On the other hand,
'religious pendant' is non-denominational.
>
> Would this character / sigil be made with consecrated parchment, ink and
> pen?

yup, of course.

>
> If the intention is to work with a spirit on the third level, would the
> sigils of the Deputy and Chief also be included?

what? If you're going to conjure spirits by the verum method it is the

sigil of the chief or deputy that goes on the first character. It is
the pact that has multiple sigils on it.

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

--- In Grimorium_Verum@yahoogroups.com, Jake Stratton-Kent

<jakestrattonkent@...> wrote:

>

> > I see where the GV instructs creating the asperser at the day/hour of
> > Mercury (pp.100), and that the aspergillus is made at the same hour, but
I
> > did not notice where the GV requires the herbs to be acquired in this
hour?
>
> the instructions above don't involve an aspergillus, its an infusion
> to replace it, so you use the same timing as if you were making one.
>

I have acquired the herbs and aspersus pot in the day/hour of Mercury
Does this mean I do not need the thread spun by a virgin to make an
aspergillus?
What is recommended to cast the consecrated water?

> > How exactly is the aspergillus made? My impression is that the herbs are
> > wrapped in the thread and then soaked in the water.
> > Thanks in advance for any corrections or suggestions.
>
> in the Key of Solomon sprigs of herbs are tied to a handle, which is
> how I do it (using the KoS sigils on the handle) - but they're just as
> good tied together. It isn't an infusion method, so they don't have to
> be soaked, they simply collect water when dipped in, which you then
> sprinkle around. Personally though I like to infuse the herbs, it is

> much stronger that way.

>>>
> > > your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant
> > > (unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy virgin...)
>>
> > I am curious as to how an article created in a Christian context could be
> > acceptable to the Chiefs when used for different purposes?
>
> because it works? ;p
>

My impression is that the Verum Spirits do not like to mix space or

instruments with other spirits;
so I do not understand the exception here.

> alternatively, find yourself a virgin spinner (good luck on that!)

>
> holy is holy and a good alternative to virginity - my guys are happy
> with me trooping round Christian cemeteries. On the other hand,
> 'religious pendant' is non-denominational.

In this case, could I not take a string, pray over it to the Great God Who
created Deity and was not created by Deity, and thus have a consecrated

string acceptable to use for both aspergillus and for the creation of The First
Pact with Scirlin?

>>
> > Would this character / sigil be made with consecrated parchment, ink
and
> > pen?
>
> yup, of course.

Would consecrated ink be sufficient?

>
>>
> > If the intention is to work with a spirit on the third level, would the
> > sigils of the Deputy and Chief also be included?
>
> what? If you're going to conjure spirits by the verum method it is the
> sigil of the chief or deputy that goes on the first character. It is
> the pact that has multiple sigils on it.
>

(I am using the Bibliotheque Rouge paperback version True Grimoire)

I see detailed description of the Pact creation which is on the DAY/HOUR of

MARS.

Could you please go into more detail of the differences between these two
different parchments,
the Scirlin character or First Character and the First Pact?

Thanks in advance

> > > > your idea is sound enough, alternatively buy a religious pendant
> > > > (unless you can get a nun to give you one! that'd be a holy
> > > > virgin...)
>>>
> > > I am curious as to how an article created in a Christian context
> > > could be acceptable to the Chiefs when used for different
purposes?
>>
> > because it works? ;p
>>
>

According to what I have read, Verum Spirits do not accept

spaces or instruments shared with other spirits. In my
understanding, a thread created with the intent to be used in
a Christian context seems to me to be bound to the Christian
Spiritual Realm.
How is it then that this object can become acceptable to the
Verum Spirits?

Thanks in advance if anyone can elucidate this point.

Jake Stratton-Kent
May 27, 2012
View Source
On 26 May 2012 23:59, ioc178 <ioc178@...> wrote:
> According to what I have read, Verum Spirits do not accept
> spaces or instruments shared with other spirits.

quite so, though lets distinguish between 1) offerings and 2) general

ritual purity.
The aspergillus is not an offering, but ritual purity is required.

In my
> understanding, a thread created with the intent to be used in
> a Christian context seems to me to be bound to the Christian
> Spiritual Realm.

and what about graveyard dirt? Christian location, Christian rites

performed right at the graveside? How come the spirits are so partial
to graveyards - despite a ruddy great church in the middle and crosses
all over the place?

And what about the religious beliefs of the virgin (remember her, the
one who spins thread in the conditions required by the grimoire -

we're now arguing about a suggested substitute!)

Fact is virginity, religion and death are all special, and that
matters a lot more to the spirits than sectarian issues.

> How is it then that this object can become acceptable to the
> Verum Spirits?

Firstly, it isn't for the spirits, but it certainly doesn't offend them.

It is appropriate to the rites because - being made for religious

purposes - it is ritually pure. The rites of religion (any religion)
are set apart from mundane life. Objects concerned with them (say
robes) are appropriate for magical work because they are special.

> Thanks in advance if anyone can elucidate this point.

What needs elucidating? The grimoire asks for all kinds of stuff,
we're meant to use our ingenuity to solve difficulties, not invent
them.

Now, it so happens my thread was on a crucifix (one of three) *made*

by a Gnostic Bishop who has worked Verum. Come to think of it, I'm a
Gnostic Bishop too - so I guess I have some options...

Now, if you don't like the idea, think, do you know any Bonist

shamans? Indian medicine men? Yogis? Maybe they'll give you something
suitable. The point is to solve the problem, to use your ingenuity so
that the ritual can proceed. So you don't like *my* solution, go back
to the virgin spun thread and find your own way around it.

Careful readers will have noticed there already is another: make

infusions of the herbs instead of using an aspergillus, then use your
fingertips or pour. So that's three ways round this plus brains of our
own, can we move on?

ALWays

Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/

Jake Stratton-Kent
Message 13 of 13 , Today at 12:40 PM
View Source

Jake

Hide message history

On 9 March 2010 at 20:10, Roy <roy@...> wrote:

Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:

Much as I approve of astrology to optimise
results, the absence of ideal conditions should not leave the magician
without recourse.
Agreed 100%! Unless one is doing strictly astrological workings as in Picatrix,
IMHO a glance at the sky or the calendar is all that is really needed. I've
always been about working with nature, and there is always a way: my
guestimation method is simple, though - if the (local) "New Moon" (Syzygy)
falls well before Sunset on day A, then the crescent will most likely appear on
day B (at Sunset). If it happens near or after Sunset on day A, then catch the
wave on day C. These are days that begin at Sunset. The Hindus have some
very interesting rules for using their almanac to select the best time for
activities - getting into the "every act is a magical act" idea made this a
pretty natural thing for me to investigate years ago - but when you get into
their actual systems of magic, the timing and practices may deviate
completely from the astrological method. Same with the Tibetans.
that is to say, when it says New Moon in the grims, it means crescent,
and by crescent it means increasing from New. Originally this may have
been close in meaning to your definition, but it is best taken to give
some leeway, so that operations specified for a Tuesday and Wednesday
can be performed on consecutive days, rather than in consecutive
months.
Thanks for that. I need to say that I am coming off a long-term anti-Grimoire
bias. I got fed up with the religiosity (even among translators and members of
the cult of the most charismatic leader etc.) and stuff like the above, which I
thought was just getting in the way. I thought many magicians were creating
a library of ready-made excuses for why their magick isn't working, because
that's all many folks I attempted to "fellowship" with had. I spent many years
wondering while no one had pieced together the basically universal nature of
spiritism, and the similarity of magical tradition around the world. That's what
attracted me to the group here. Thanks to the research of brilliant
practitioners like yourself, I've let go of most of that bias and am back into
the Grimoire Tradition again.
see above, New Moon, as the ephemeris defines it, is not what is intended.

The whole idea of universal calendars and time systems, IMHO, is kind of
problematic for magickal practice, because it enforces "unnatural" rhythms
on people and sets us up with subconscious expectations that mess with our
heads (like old enough to drink, it's going to happen too soon LOL) - this
includes the ephemeris which is a one-parent child of the divorce of
observational astrology from mathematical astrology. Fortunately it isn't too
traumatized to get useful information from, if you know where to look.
in 'rule of thumb' 12 degrees is approx 24 hours, and this is possibly
better practice than almost immediately after New Moon. Just the same,
when looking for a window of opportunity, some hours after New for
beginning and a window of some days (ie, before 1st quarter, when Moon
is no longer 'crescent') to complete some tasks is likely closer to
the spirit of these Anglo/European texts.

ALWays

Jake
In the study of the link between the breath, prana, and the Moon the Pandits
of India use the rule that days 1, 2, and 3 are the favorable days after the
calculated New Moon. Favorable, in this case, means that the Lunar current
(Ida, one of the three main channels of the "Psychic Nervous System") is
dominant at Sunrise, which enables you to take advantage of the Moon's
regulation of solar energy etc - all Yoga metaphysics. This has nothing to do
with birthchart astrology, etc. this is about working with the two main
currents of Prana - which run in synch with the Solunar rhythm. But that's
their metaphysics.

I can see a situation where the 3rd day could be the 1st crescent, if the Moon
is in a slow part of the zodiac and the astrological New Moon fell shortly
before local sunrise - in which case the First Crescent would be at a great
distance from the Sun, making it a very favorable month according to the
Babylonians. I believe that's how that lore got into the grimoires - when I look
east at sunset after the New Moon and there is no crescent (if there is
adequate visibility), the next day should be good for a powerful operation, if
there is a crescent, time to whip out the words and fire.

I like to think of using the environment in this way as part of one's offering to
the spirits, in that a "good" lunar tide may mean something special to them,
just as certain aromas and sounds do. I don't know, but my magick
operations have always been more effective at those times and other days
that follow solunar current theory (not the waxing/waning theory). I should
imagine that after introduction and agreements have been made, one could
make calls for "aggressive" or "fiery" purposes on days when the Solar
current dominates and so on. I think it's a worthwhile experiment to try at
some point, after I talk to some of them about it.

Thanks,

Roy