October2,2013,7:31PMHKT

Ramachandra Guha on Gandhi Before India

ByJoannaSugden

PenguinBooksIndia

ThebookexploresGandhisyearsinLondonand
SouthAfrica

AuthorandhistorianRamachandraGuhaisaleadingauthorityonIndianhistoryandhasjustpublisheda
newworkchroniclingthelifeofMohandasGandhibeforehebecametheMahatma.
InGandhiBeforeIndia,Mr.GuhaexploresthetimetheleaderofIndiasindependencemovementspent
inLondonandSouthAfricaandarguesthatthoseyearsshapedhimandproducedhisphilosophyofnon
violence.
Mr.Guha,wholivesinBangalore,spoketotheJournalaboutthepeoplewhoinfluencedGandhisthinking
whilehewasawayfromIndia,whatbeinginthediasporataughtGandhiabouthishomeland,andhowBill
GatesandWarrenBuffettarebetterGandhiansthanmanyofIndiascurrentpoliticians.
TheWallStreetJournal:YouveresearchedGandhithroughoutyourcareer,wasthereanything
youdiscoveredwhileworkingforthisbookthatwasarevelationtoyou?
RamachandraGuha:Howformative[Gandhis]yearsinLondonandSouthAfricawere,andhowmuch
hegainedfromtheseforgottenassociatesandcollaborators.Theyareafascinatingcastofcharacters.
TheresacouplehewasJewish,shewasChristiantheysharedahouseholdwiththeGandhisin
Johannesburgin1905.Itwastrulyrevolutionary,aninterracialhouseholdwhosemembersbefriendedone

another,influencedoneanother.
ThentherewasaBaptistminister.TheestablishedchurchwasAnglicanandtheysupportedtheracist
regime,butthedissidentsliketheBaptistsandtheMethodistsandtheWesleyanssawGandhisstruggle
asakindofbornagainChristiankindofastruggleforjustice.
Sothiskindofgroupofeccentricsanddissidentsaroundhim,includingsomeIndians,shapedhimand
reallymadehimMahatma.
Theyhavebeenwrittenoutofthescene.WejustfocusonhisIndianphase,wedontreallylookatthetwo
decadeswhereheelaboratedallhiscoreideasoninterfaithharmony,endingcastediscrimination,his
philosophyofnonviolence,allwereforgedthen.
WSJ:WhatdoyouthinkMahatmaGandhiwouldhavemadeofNarendraModi,chiefministerof
GujaratandprimeministerialcandidatefortheBharatiyaJanataParty,Indiasmainopposition
party?
Mr.Guha:IdontwanttosaywhatGandhiwouldhavemadeofModi,afterallhedied65yearsago.But
clearlyModidepartsfromtheGandhianmodeofpoliticsinmanyways.
TheobviousdepartureisthatunderModisregimethousandsofMuslimswerebutcheredandhundredsof
thousandsstilllanguishinconditionsofpovertyandinsecurity.
GandhidiedforthecauseofMuslimHinduharmony.YoucouldarguethathisattemptstokeepIndia
unitedfailed,butherecognizedthis.HespenthislastyearsfastingandtakingonthemightofHindu
fundamentalismanditwasaHindufundamentalistfromtheRSS[RashtriyaSwayamsevakSangh,a
rightwingHinduorganization]whokilledhim.
ModiistruetotheRSSviewofHindusupremacyandinthatsensehesclearlynotaGandhian.Butthe
questionisthatofpersonality.Gandhiwasanopenmindedquestingperson,alwayscuriousaboutother
peoplesviews,alwaysconsciousofhisownfallibilities.
WhereasModiisamegalomaniacItsallme,I,myself.Thisisamanwhointermsofhisauthoritarian
personalityisasfarremovedfromGandhiasanyIndiancouldbeandanyGujaraticouldbe,sincehes
alsoGujarati.
OfcourseIdontwanttosingleoutModi.Thereareotherpoliticianswhodissemble,wholie,whoare
secretive,IndianpoliticianswhoarehypocriticalincludingtheCongressparty,whichviolatesGandhis
teachingsonanalmostdailybasis.
WSJ:AndwhatdoyouthinkhewouldhavemadeofthecurrentCongresspartyleadership?
Mr.Guha:Modisopponents,particularlytheNehruGandhifamilyalsocompletelyviolateafundamental
Gandhianprinciple.BecauseGandhinevergaveanypostofprivilegetohischildren.Hekepthischildren
awaytotheextentthathewilledthecopyrighttohiswritingsandletterstoatrust.
HedidntencouragehischildrentojointheCongressparty,theywenttojail,buthedidntmakethem
ministers.Heclearlyknewthemonetaryvalueofhiswritingsbuthedidnotwanthischildrentomake
capitaloutofit.
SoniaGandhi[presidentofCongress]isnotcutoutofthatcloth,norareotherIndianpoliticianswho
alwayspromotetheirsonsortheirdaughters.Iargueinmypreviousbook,IndiaAfterGandhithatitwas
notNehrubutIndiraGandhiwhostartedit.

InsomewaysGandhianticipatesthekindoftraditionofpeoplelikeBillGatesandWarrenBuffett,the
sensethatyouhavetomakeyourwayintheworldandyoucantinherityourfathersbusinessor
company.InGandhiscaseitismoralcapitalratherthanfinancialcapital.
WSJ:GreatSoul,apreviousrecentbiographyofGandhiwasbannedinGujaratbecauseit
suggestedhehadahomosexualrelationship.Whatdoyoumakeofthatsuggestion,andtheban?
Mr.Guha:GreatSoulwasabookthatadvocatedaslightlycontroversial,andinmyview
unsubstantiatedthesis,butthatwasnoreasontobanit.Manybooksadvocateslightlycontroversial
thesesbutModi,thatshisinstinct,toban.AndofcoursehewantstobeseenasthedefenderofGandhi.
WhentheriotshappenedinGujaratin2002IwentthereshortlyafterwardsandanoldGandhiansocial
workersaid,ThisisthesecondassassinationofMahatmaGandhi.
Nowwiththatkindofbaggage,Modiwantstogetawayfromit.Itwasjustpureopportunism.Congress
sortoffearedthatModiwascapturingGandhislegacyandalsoconsideredaban.Gandhiwouldhave
welcomeddebate,theanswertoabookisanotherbooksettingtheargumentsright.
WSJ:IsthereanythinginyournewbookthatexposesGandhisfallibilitiesandcouldgetit
banned?
Mr.Guha:Itwillnotbebanned,butittouchesverymuchonGandhisfallibilities.Thisbooktalksagreat
dealabouthisgreatness,hisphysicalcourage,profoundlyecumenicalandpluralisticphilosophy.Butit
alsotalksabouthisshockingfailuresasahusbandandfatheratsomelengthandIdontcensurehis
failures,Iputthemincontext,Imquitecritical.
ButofcourseitssetagainsthisgreatachievementsandIarguethatpeopleinpubliclifeoften,because
theyaresoobsessedwiththeircareer,theirvocation,theircause,theyneglecttheirfamily.
WSJ:Canyoutellusmoreaboutwhatyouhavediscoveredabouthisfailingsinhisfamily?
Thereisagreatdealinmybookaboutthehugedifficultieshehadwithhiselderson.Hesimplydidnt
understandtheboysambitions.Partofitwasthathehadhischildrenveryearly.Hegotmarriedinthe
conventionalIndianwayandhehadhissonwhenhewas18.
Gandhiwas36andundergoinghismidlifecrisiswhenthesonwasundergoinghisadolescentcrisis.They
clashedanditsaveryanguished,torturedcomplicatedrelationship.Itsverymoving.Lotsoflettersshow
thatclearlyhewasacasualtyofGandhibecomingaMahatma.
Withthewife,theyadaptedtoeachother.Gandhibecameslightlymoretolerant.Shebecamemore
assertiveandovertimeacompanionshipdidevolve.
Theeldersonwasbrokenbywhathefeltwashisfatherslackofrecognition.
WSJ:YousayintheopeningtoyourbookthatonecantunderstandGandhiwithout
understandingwhathewasrespondingto.Canyoutellusaboutwhatthatwas,particularlyduring
hisyearsinSouthAfrica?
Mr.Guha:Itwasthebeginningsoftheapartheidstatesohewasrespondingtotwoorthreethings.One
wasofcoursethefirstracistlaws.
Oneofthenewthingsinthisbookwastheextraordinaryprejudiceofthewhitepressandhowoften
Gandhiwascaricatured,abused,vilified,andevenphysicallyattackedbywhiteracistsinSouthAfrica.
ThisneverhappenedtohiminIndia.Hewasneverattackedbecausewhiteswereaminorityhere,

althoughtheywerearulingminority.Butthere,theycontrolledthestatepower,theycontrolledthepress.
InDurbanhewasattackedbyawhitemobandnearlykilled,buthewassavedbyanEnglishcouple.This
gaveGandhithesensethatevenifcolonialandimperialruleisbad,itdoesntmeanthatallwhitepeople
arebadhumanbeings.Thereisauniversalismthatisdevelopedthere.
ButhewasalsoreactingandopeninghiseyestotheheterogeneityofIndiainthediaspora.
GandhiwasborninaninsularBania,ormerchanthousehold,inGujarat:Veryfastidiousaboutfoodtaboos
andvegetarianismandgoingtothetempleeveryweek.HegoestoLondonsimplytogetadegreeand
comebackandpracticelawinGujarat.Hecomesbackandfailsasalawyer,thenisrescuedbySouth
Africa.Ifhehadsucceededasalawyerhewouldhavemaintainedthehabits,theprejudices,thenarrow
mindednessofaGujaratimerchantfamily.WhereashegoestoSouthAfrica,hisfirstcaseisfoughton
behalfofMuslims.ThenhegetstoknowaboutthelinguisticdiversityofIndia,thatitsnotjustGujaratibut
peoplearespeakingHindi,Tamil,Bengali.
Healsogetstoknowtheheterogeneityofclassandcastebecausethediasporawascomposedofall
kindsofpeople.TherewereIndianlaborers,therewerehawkers,therewerewaitersinhotels,therewere
printers,artisans.Thecastestructurestillexistedtosomeextent,itwasntfullybrokendownandhecould
seethat.
ThisdiversityandheterogeneityofIndia,hewouldnthaveunderstoodhadhenotgonethere.Andsowhen
hecomesbackin1915,oneofthefirstthingshedoesistoreshapetheCongresspartyaccordingto
languagezones.Hesays,Wellhaveunitsnotbasedonprovinces,butonlanguages.
IfhehadcomebacktoGujaratandpracticedasalawyerandsucceededhemayneverhavebeenthe
Mahatma,hedhavejustbeenasuccessfulprofessionalcaughtinasmalltownwithhisownpeopleonly
speakingGujaratiortalkingtofellowBanias.
WSJ:YourbookseemstoexplorethesehappenstancesthatputGandhionthepathtobecoming
knownasthefatherofthenation,wasthattheintention?
Mr.Guha:Whenhefirststartshismovementin1904,GandhioffersacompromisetoLordMilner[Alfred
Milner,thenGovernoroftheTransvaalinSouthAfrica].HesaysLook,theIndianswanttheserights,the
whiteswanttothrowthemoutaltogether.Heresakindofcompromise,whichisbasedontheIndianswho
arealreadyhere.Dontgivethemrightstocitizenship,justgivethemtherighttoownpropertyandto
trade.Milnersays,No,wewanttobootallyouguysout.
IfLordMilnerhadagreedtothisratherbasicsafeguardingoftherighttopropertyandtrade,Gandhiand
satyagraha[techniquesofmasscivildisobedience]wouldneverhavebeenborn.Sothereareallthese
contingenciesthatareveryintriguing.
WSJ:Yousayyouwrotethisbookinpartasaresultofgettingtiredofthewritingandteaching
aboutthehistoryofenvironmentalism.HowmuchmoreofGandhicanyoutake?
Mr.Guha:IcantakeanyamountofGandhibecausehewasacolossalfigure.Withoutdoubtheisthe
mostinfluentialfigureofthe20thcentury.Itaughtacourse[attheUniversityofCaliforniaatBerkley]on
ArgumentswithGandhi,andIcamebackthinking,IfyoudtaughtacourseonargumentswithRoosevelt
inDelhiwhowouldtakeit?OrargumentswithMarx?
Gandhiisauniversalfigureallacrosstheworld.SointhatsenseIcouldspendtherestofmylifecovering
Gandhi.IwanttowriteasequelcoveringhisyearsinIndia,GandhiinIndia,thenIwanttowriteabookon
Gandhisglobalinfluence,inSouthAfrica,India,theWorld,butmostlyonhisposthumousinfluence

throughthecivilrightsmovement,throughwhatshappeninginBurmaandtheenvironmentalmovement
andmanyotherthings.
WSJ:TellusaboutGandhismoderndaycritics.
Mr.Guha:Manypeople,especiallyideologuesofleftandright,stillwanttoattackhim.Theyfeelhesa
threattothem,Maoists,theIndianNaxalites,hateGandhi.Hesaidyoucanfightoppressionwithoutthe
gun,youcanmobilizepeople.TherewasatimewhentheNaxalitesusedtogoarounddecapitating
statuesofGandhi,thoughtheyvestoppeddoingthat.
Hereisamanwhoexcitesgreatadmirationbutalsogreathostilityandrivalry,eventhoughhesbeengone
solong.Forahistorianthatisawonderfulthing.
WSJ:DoesesteemforGandhidependonthecontinuedsuccessoftheIndiandemocratic
experiment?
Mr.Guha:HewouldliveelsewhereevenifIndiafailed,throughhistechniquesofnonviolence.
ThatspartofwhatIndiagotfromGandhiandispracticedwithmodestsuccess,notcompletesuccess.I
believethatIndiasgreatestachievementistoshowthatyoucanbeaunitednationwithoutimposinga
singlelanguage.Gandhiinsistedonthis.SriLankawentthroughacivilwarbecauseofthisquestionofone
language.
IagreewithyouthattheadmirationofGandhiispartlybasedonthefactthatdespiteourdiversityweare
stillasinglenation,despiteourpovertywestillhavesomekindofdemocracy,notaperfectdemocracy
butsomekind.
WSJ:WhatdoyouthinkofhighprofilepeopleinIndiawhomodelthemselvesonGandhi,suchas
theanticorruptioncampaignerAnnaHazare?
Mr.Guha:TherearesomeremarkableGandhiansinIndiaandtheyarenotalwaystheonesthatcome
outinthenews.
OneofthemoreremarkableGandhianinstitutionsissomethingcalledSewa,theSelfEmployedWomens
AssociationinAhmedabad.Itsawomenscooperativeofabouthalfamillionmembersthathas
organizedwomenallacrossGujaratinproductiveactivities.ItsHindu,Muslim,lowcaste,highcasteand
itsreallyempoweredthemeconomicallyandsocially.
TheresadoctorwhoworksamongtribalpeopleinKarnatakaandahusbandandwife,bothdoctors,who
workinMaharashtraandhavebasicallyeliminatedmalariaandleprosyinthatarea.
Soitisvoluntaryworkatthegrassrootsandthepressdoesntwriteaboutthembecausetheydontrunfor
Delhiandgoonadramaticstrikeandsoon.
TobefairtoAnnaHazare,healsostartedatthelocallevelandcamehere[toDelhi].
Iadmirethemovementagainstcorruption.Buttherewasatimewhentheycouldhavenegotiatedandgot
thegovernmenttopassalaw,buttheythoughtthepoweroftelevisionwouldbringdownthegovernment.
IdontknowhowGandhiwouldhaveactedinatelevisionagebecauseitsveryimportanttorecognize
whatthemediacandoandcannotdo.Itcanhighlightaproblembutitcannotsolveaproblem.For
example,whenAnnaHazarewentonafast,itacquiredmassiveattentionalloverIndiaandthe
governmentwasshakenandtheyconstitutedacommitteetodiscussanewanticorruptionbillandthat
committeehadfiveCabinetministersandfivecivilsocietyactivistsnominatedbyAnnaHazare.Atthat

stagethesepeoplefoolishlysaid,Theproceedingsmustbetelecastlive.Now,youcantdraftalawinthat
way.
Atthatstage,theyshouldhavesaid,Okay,sitwithusforaweekandifinthatweekwecanagreeona
satisfactorylaw,fine.Ifyouarestillintransigentandyoustillwanttoprotectyourcorruptofficialsandyou
wanttohavetoomanyloopholesinthelaw,thenforgetit.
ItsagoodphraseofGandhis,Thebeautyofcompromise.Heusesthisphraseanumberoftimes.Ina
sense,nonviolenceisalsoaboutcompromise.Itsaboutshamingtheopponent,butafteryoushamehim,
reachouttohimandtalktohim.
WhetherGandhiwouldhavehadthemoralrestrainttosay,Okay,nowIdontwantyoutelevisionguys
afterme,Iwantsomerealchange,talktomeaftertwoweeksandImgoing,wedontknow.
WSJ:IstheanticorruptionmovementinIndiadead?
Mr.Guha:Theanticorruptionmovementisnotdead,butitsinterestingtoseewhatwillhappeninDelhi
[electionsinNovember].TheAamAdmiPartywillhaveanimpactinDelhi,butnotoutside.Itistooearlyto
knockontothegeneralelection,butfiveyearsfromnow,maybe.
ThatsonethingwelearnfromGandhi.Hespent21yearsinSouthAfricabeforehecomesbacktoIndia.
Itsahellofalongtime.
ArvindKejriwal[leaderoftheAamAadmiParty]isstillayoungmanandsoaremostofhisassociates,so
theyshouldbethinkingofsteadilyplanningtowards2019becauselongterm,sustainablechangetakes
thatlong.
WSJ:HowmuchdoyouthinkyouunderstandGandhi?
Mr.Guha:IdontunderstandGandhicompletely,butIunderstandhimbetternowIthink.Therearemany
aspectsofhisearlylifethatIhavetriedtoprobehisfriendshipshisrelationships.Yougetaslightly
bettersenseofamanthroughhiscontemporaries,hisassociatesandhisrivals.Allofthatisthere.
Completecomprehensionisbeyondanyone.
Nobiographycanbedefinitive.Itcanonlybesomethingthataddsalittlebitandcomplicatesthestoryand
maybedeepensourunderstandinguntilsomeoneelsecomesanddoesmorework,orhasbettertoolsor
insights.
ThispostoriginallyappearedonIndiaRealTime
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