The Prophecy of Chokgyur Lingpa

Misused to Prove that Ogyen Trinle Is

the 17th Karmapa
Often the prophecy of Chokgyur Lingpa, a
Tibetan saint who lived in the 19th century, is
misused to "prove" that Ogyen Trinle is the
authentic 17th Karmapa. That is not at all the case
shows this document.
more on: https://karmapaissue.wordpress.com
The great tertn1 Chokgyur Lingpa (1829-1870)
had a vision of the Karmapas. Chokyur Lingpas
Biography reads: At Karmey Monastery he had
a vision of the 27 Karmapas, seeing the details of
their lives and activities. Explaining this to artists
later, he had them make paintings on the
monastery walls.2
The 17th Karmapa is shown on those paintings
as being together with a red crowned Lama,
whom he interpreted to be Tai Situ Rinpoche,
whose mind was said to be inseperable from the
17th Karmapa:
At the side of trees and the rocky mountain, the
17th Karmapa and Kenting Tai Situ sitting
together is a sign that the hearts of the two of
them will join as one; the Dharma leaf will flourish, and the lineage of Dhagpo will fully ripen as a
fruit.
The actual Situpa knew of this thangka and ordered Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, the son of Lingpa''s
second reincarnation Neten Chokling Pema Gyurme, to bring the thangka to exile. He did, showed
it to the Dalai Lama and gave it to Situpa who printed it and distributed largely the copies as
prove that his choice of the 17th Karmapa was right. Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche:
Many people followed the Thangka and its prophecy Thrangu, Tenga, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche,
to them it was more important then the opinion of Shamarpa or Situpa.3
But few people had considered a historical fact which points out that actually the 16th Karmapa
could be meant with this prophecy: There was a Karmapa-incarnation after the 14th Karmapa,
which died as a child before being enthroned. The official counting doesn't take notice of that child.
It is not sure if Chokyur Lingpa counted that incarnation. If so, the present Karmapa would be the
18th and not the 17th. The prophecy about the 17th Karmapa would then concern the 16th
Karmapa, who had two root Lamas: Jamgn Kongtrl Rinpoche II and indeed Situpa XI. This
interpretation is plausible as Lingpa predicts that under the 17th Karmapa the Dharma spreads over
the world, what actually happened through the activity of the 16th Karmapa Rigpe Dorje. 4 In the
copy of the prediction Geshe Dawa Gyaltsen presents 5, it's written: At that time [of the 17th
Karmapa], summer retreat will be revived, what happened during the lifetime of the 16th
1 A Tertn is someone who finds the treasury texts and ritual objects hidden by Padmasambhava in the 8 th century.
2 Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, Tulku Jigmey Khyentse; Kunsang, Erik Pema (transl.): The Life of Chokgyur Lingpa,
Rangjung Yeshe Publications 1988. It seems to be rather thangkas which were put on the monastery walls, see below.
3 Ugyen Tobgay talk about Karmapa's fake Prediction Letter by Situ Rinpoche, https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=w5-GT5ovYOU.
4 http://materialien-karmapa-kontroverse.weebly.com/choumlkgyur-lingpas-prophezeiung.html
5 On the Visions of Chokgyur Lingpa - Geshe Dawa Gyaltsen, in: Wong, Sylvia: The Karmapa Prophecies, Motilal
Banarsidass 2010.

Karmapa.6 The as 16th counted Karmapa Rikpe Dorje himself said to Lama Gendn Rinpoche: I
myself will definitely manifest in this world as the Karmapa for another three or four lifetimes.
Thereafter my activity will spread out, through many manifestations but without the name
'Karmapa'.7 That means that the 16th Karmapa predicted that there will be only 19 or 20 Karmapas.
All of this is not very clear. As mentioned the Life of Chokgyur Lingpa Lingpa, Chokyur Lingpa
spoke actually about 27 Karmapas. So all this is not to be taken to literally.8
In a talk Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, explaines that Shamarpa and Chokgyur Lingpa had no
connection, but Lingpa and Situpa had. Concerning the question which 17 th Karmapa he followed,
he didn't ask himself many questions and followed Situpa. He explains: So no matter what is right
or wrong, my loyality will always be with Situpa.9
Its interesting that Lingpa first had the mentioned visions and
explained them to artists later who made the paintings of
them.10 In the vision about the 17th Karmapa (on the image on
the right) he saw next to him a Lama with a red crown. Both,
Situpa and Shamarpa have a red crown. Might Lingpa
interpreted this red crowned Lama to be Situpa as he had no
connection with Shamarpa, but actually his vision showed
Shamarpa?
With all this questions in mind it becomes clear that the
prediction of Chokgyur Lingpa is not sufficient to prove that
Ogyen Trinle to be the authentic 17th Karmapa.
A detailled analyses of the prophecy is found in Sylvia
Wong's The Karmapa Prophecies in the corresponding
chapter which is reproduced here.

Wong's The Karmapa Prophecies in the corresponding chapter which is reproduced

here. (klick on "here" please).

Khenchen Thrangu writes in his biography of the late Karmapa (as cited by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche: The Lives of
the Karmapas, 6 CDs, KTD publications, 2011/2012) that the rainy season retreat was revived in Karmapas monastery
in exile, Rumtek. (Since the days of the 10th Karmapa it hadn't even practiced at Karmapas monastery of Tsurphu.)
In the mentioned talk of Urgyen Tobgay he states that the prophecy attributes this to be predicted for the 15th or 16th
Karmapa. So all of this remains unclear.
Lama Gendn Recalls, Vienna Dharma Videos, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHZGcyVb2cA, 5min 15sec.

8Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche; Tulku Jigmey Khyentse and Erik Pema Kunsang (transl.): The Life of
Chokgyur Lingpa, Rangjung Yeshe Publications 1988, pg 21.
9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5-GT5ovYOU, transcript on this worldpress site.
10 See note 7.