p.

Should U.S. Foreign Assistance Be Tied to Human Rights?

KurtVolker:Goodeveningandwelcome.Thankyouforcomingthisevening.My
nameisKurtVolker.Ihavethedistincthonorofbeingtheexecutivedirectorofthe
McCainInstitute,andI'dliketowelcomeyouallherethisevening.Ialsowantto
welcomesomeoftheVIPsinouraudience.Wehaveourfriendtheambassadorof
Slovenia,BooCerar.Wehaveafewmembersofourboardoftrusteeswhoarehere.I
knowthereareothersaswell.Iwanttothankyouforcoming.
TheMcCainInstitutewasfoundedtoadvancecharacterdrivengloballeadership.We
believethatthereisaneedtostrengthenthecommitmenttocoreissuesofcharacterand
valuesintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworldandtopromotethekindofleadership
that'sgoingtocarryusforwardintotheyearsanddecadesahead.
TheMcCainInstitutealsotakesonconcreteprogramminginareasofhumanrights,
humanitarianwork,andnationalsecurity.Oneofoursignaturepubliceventshasbeen
thisDebateandDecisionseries,wherewetrytobringpointsofviewfromtheleftand
theright,fromthecenter.Arguingoverwhatarethebestchoicesthatourcountryshould
bemaking,inthechallengeswefaceourselves,andinfactthefaceoftheworld.
We'vedoneoveradozenofthesedebates,asyou'veseeninthisintroductoryvideo.We
runthisinastructuredandtimedformat.Eachsidewillhavefourminutestomakean
initialargument.Eachsidewillthenhavetwominutestorebuttheargumentsofthe
opposingside.
Thentherewillbeanopportunitywherethemoderatorwillaskquestions,andIhavethe
honorofbeingyourmoderatorthiseveningaswell.Then,we'llalsohaveanopportunity
foraudiencequestions.We'llgivethattoeachofthesidesaswell.
Whenweturntotheaudienceforquestions,Iwouldaskonefavorfromallofyou.Dobe
brief.Domakeitaquestion,sothatitteesupanopportunityforourpanelists,forour
debaterstoreallyaddresstheissuethatisbeingbroughtup.
Thisisbeinglivewebcast.It'llalsoexistonline.Wecaptureitforvideo,asyousee.We
alsodoeditedversionsthatwepostonlineaswell.We'llbecirculatingdecisionnotes
afterwards,whichrecapssomeofthekeyarguments.Iwouldencourageyoutobeactive
participantsinourdebate.Silenceyourcellphones,butdoTweet#midebate.
ThereisWiFihere,ifyou'renotgettinggoodphonereception.TheWiFiandthe
passwordareatthebackofthebrochureyoupickedup,soyou'llbeabletogeton,andbe
abletoTweet.Ifyoupostquestionsinthere,wedohavesomeonefollowingtheTwitter
feedtoseewhatquestionsmightbebroughtup.Thosewillbepassedtome.
AsIsaid,doputthephonesonvibrate,sowedon'thaveinterferencewiththeaudioor

p.2

thephonesringingintheauditorium.Wewillgothroughallofthequestionsandthenat
theendofourdebateweclosebyaskingeachofourparticipantstogiveusaoneminute
quicksummary,whatistheirbottomlinerecommendationforwhattheywouldliketo
seetheUnitedStatesdorightnow.
Tonight'sdebateraisesaveryimportantanddifficultquestion,whichistherelationship
betweenUSforeignassistanceandhumanrights.Weknowthattherearechallengesin
theworldthataffecthumanrights.Someofthesearecausedbysecurityproblems.Some
ofthemarecausedbyoppressiveregimes.Wesee,asaresultofthis,oftenhumanitarian
disastersinparallelwiththis.
WetrytouseUSforeignassistancetopromotesecurity,topromotehumanitarianrelief
andcarrythatouttopromoteeconomicdevelopment.
Thequestionis,"Howdowenavigatethisminefieldofgivingaidthatmay,infact,
ignoreahumanrightssituationorempoweraregimethatisabusinghumanrights,or
givesthemthearmsandthetoolsthattheymayuseinoppressingtheirownpopulation?"
Todebatethesequestionstonightwehavefourextraordinarilyexperiencedandcapable
debaters.I'llintroducethemeachinturn.
First,hereclosesttome,isDanielRunde.Danielisaformercolleagueworkingin
government.HeisnowatCSIS.HeworkedatAIDforanumberofyears.HeandOmar
Ismail,whoisfrom,originally,Darfur,hasbeeninvolvedinanumberofUNandNGO
effortsinprovidingreliefinDarfurandarguingsomeofthepolicypositionsabouthow
Darfurshouldbeaddressed,includingsomeseminalworkonthebasisfordeclaringthat
theDarfurkillingswere,infact,agenocide.
Thetwoonthatsidewillbearguingthecasethatwedoneedtoconditionourassistance
onhumanrights.Furtherdownwehave,attheendoftherow,AndrewNatsios.Andrew
NatsioswasthedirectorofUSAIDfrom2001to2006,Ibelieve.HethenwastheUS
SpecialEnvoytotheSudan.HeisnowthedirectoroftheScowcroftInstitute,whichis
partoftheBushSchoolatTexasA&MUniversity.ThisisGeorgeH.W.BushSchoolat
TexasA&M.
WithhimisDougOllivant.DougservedanumberoftoursinIraq,alsoinAfghanistan.
HeservedintheNationalSecurityCouncilforbothPresidentBushandPresidentObama
workingonIraqandAfghanistan.Hecontinuestobeveryactiveintheseissuenowinhis
privatesectorlife,bothworkingforaconsultingfirmwhichhasofficesthroughoutIraq,
aswellasbeingafellowwiththeNewAmericanFoundation.
Theywillbearguingthecase,notsofast.Wehaveavastarrayofinterests.Asyou
wouldimagine,there'salotofmiddleground.Ithinkyou'llhearsomeofourdebaters
agreeingandsometimesdisagreeingwitheachother.That'sthenatureofaseriousdebate
wherethereisnoblackandwhiteanswerbutthere'salotofnuance.

p.3

Iwanttostartoutdebate,then,thiseveningbyturningtoourfirstteamherewiththis
question.Aswewereexplainingjustaminuteago,whenyouhavecasesofregimes
usingtheirarmedforces,usingtheirpolicetoabusetheirpopulationyouhavecasesof
regimescontrollingaccesstofoodortohumanitarianrelief.Youhavegrossviolationsof
politicalrights.
Shouldn'tthatbeaconditionfortheUnitedStatesbeforedecidingwhethertoprovideaid
tothatcountry?
DanielRunde:Thanks,Mark.Thanksverymuch.
Letmesayacouplethingsatthebeginning,whichisthatwewanttohaveaworldofas
manystatesaspossibleparticipatingintherulebasedorderthatwassetupbytheUnited
StatesafterWorldWarII.It'sinourinteresttohavefreesocietiesthatrespecthuman
rights.Itmakesusmoresecure.Wewanttomoveinthatdirectionultimately.That'sthe
ultimategoal.
Therefore,weshouldleadwithourvalues.TheUnitedStatesshouldleadwithour
values.Weshoulduseallinstrumentsofstatecrafttopushinthedirectionofhuman
rights.Principlesmatter.Theyremindusofwhoweareasapeople.It'sinourinterest,as
Isaid,tohaveaworldthat'sdemocraticandrespectinghumanrights.
Yes,weshoulduseforeignassistance.Weshouldlookathumanrights,lookthroughthe
lensofhumanrightswhenwemakedecisionsaboutforeignassistance.Inthecaseof
foodaid,almostinnocircumstancesshouldweusethelensofhumanrightsasthelens
thatwelookatfoodaid.Therearegoingtobesomeextremeexamples,butIthinkif
people'slivesareindangerweshouldputthatfirst.
Inthecaseofdevelopmentandmilitaryassistance,absolutelyitshouldbeoneofthe
lensesthatwelookat.
Letmegiveaquickcounterexample.ThinkofChina,whichistheextremerealistschool
offoreignpolicy,orperhapstheamoralpragmaticschoolofforeignpolicy.Theywilldo
businesswithanybody.Theytreatpeopleterribly.They'reasocietythatnoonetrusts
theirmilkortheirwater.Expatsareleavingtheircitiesbecausethey'resopolluted.They
tellparentshowmanychildrentheycanhave.Theytellcitizenswheretheycanlive,
whetherinthecitiesornot.
Thinkaboutwhentheyarethelargesteconomyintheworld.Theyarewritingtherules
oftheroadfortheglobalorder.Wedon'twantthatsortofarulebasedorderwrittenby
China.It'sabsolutelyterrible.
Ithinkweneedtothinkabout,first,thedirectionwewanttogo,whichistowardsa
systemwherepeopleareparticipatinginourrulebasedorder.Second,wedon'twantto
moveinthedirectionofarulebasedordersetbyChinabecausethey're,inessence,asI
said,anextremeexampleorrealism.

p.4

Justacoupleotherpoints.Ithinkpromotinghumanrightsandpursingotherforeign
policyobjectivesarenotmutuallyexclusive.Ithinkweshouldbethinkingaboutidealism
ratherthanpragmatismorpragmatismgroundedinidealism.Yes,humanrightsshouldbe
oneofthelensesthatwelookatinassistance.
There'stwothingstothinkabout,though.Foreignaid,economicassistance,isn'twhatit
usedtobe.In1990asmanyas95countries,thelargestforeignfinancingthattheygot
wasfromforeignaid.Today,43countriesit'sthelargestamountofforeignfinancingthat
theyget.
Thereareexampleswherewe'vehadtocutassistance.ThinkofIdiAmininUgandaorin
acasejustrecentlythisweekwherewecutmilitaryassistance,wesignificantlyreduced
itinMexicobecausetheywerenotcertifiedtohavingmetcertainhumanrightscriteria.
ThiscausedasensationinMexico.
Kurt:Omer,aminutetocontinue.
OmerIsmail:Thankyou.ThankstotheMcCainInstitute.It'sgreattoseeyouhere.
Someoldfriendsandsomenewones.
Ithinktheissueofaid,tome,isnothowotherpeoplelookatit.Somepeoplelookatitas
onebenevolentcountryorregimethatisgivinghandoutstootherregimes.Forme,
foreignaidisatransaction.It'satransactionbetweentwocountries.Ithasitsinterest
rootedintoit.
Forthatmatter,Idivideitintothreecategories.Oneistheemergencyhumanitarianaid.
Thereisnoqualmthatthiscountry,oranycountryintheworld,shouldstepupandhelp
peopleinneed.We'veseenextremecaseslikeinNorthKoreaornowinSyriaorinother
places.Regardlessofwhatkindofregimethere,Ithinkthepeopleofthatcountry
deservethehelpthathasbeenaffordedbytheUnitedStatesoranyothercountryorthe
internationalorganizations.
Therearewaystogoaround...
Kurt:We'llcomebacktoyoubecauseyou'llhaveachanceafterwehearfromtheother
side.IwanttogivetheopportunitytoAndrewandDougnowtomaketheircase,which
isreallyaddressingthisquestion.Yes,ofcourse,youwantaconditiononhumanrights.
Isn'titreallyacasebycasejudgment?
Don'tyoureallyhavetolookatwhoyou'retalkingabout,whattheissueis?Canyou
reallydenyhumanitarianreliefwhenit'sneeded?Canyoureallyputasidesecurityif
that'sgoingtobetheparamountissuethatyou'redealingwith?Letmetoturnfirstto
Andrew.
AndrewNatsios:Letmesuggestseveralpropositionstoanswerthequestionbeing
debated.First,allhumanrightsabusesarenotthesame.They'reallobjectionablebut

p.5

somearemoreobjectionablethanothers.Forexample,genocideandmassatrocitiesare
notthesameasrestrictionsonfreedomofthepressorarrestingpeoplewithoutadequate
evidence.
Massatrocitiesarecompletelyunacceptableunderanycircumstances.TheUS
governmentshouldacttosanctionanyregimeineverywaytheycan.However,whilewe
canendeconomicanddevelopmentalaidthatgoestoorthroughpredatoryabuseof
governments,whicheludingtheirowncountry'sresources,committingwidespread
atrocities,theUSgovernmentshouldnotendallaidprograms.
AidprogramscanbecarriedoutbyNGOs,USAIDcontractorsoruniversities.Infact,
thereisn'tthatmuchaidthatactuallygoesthroughthecoffersofothergovernments.We
justdon'tdobecausethemoneydisappearseveningovernmentsthatarerelatively
democraticandfriendlytous.Therearethreecategoriesofaidthatshouldbeprotected
fromanycuts,inmyview,underanycircumstances.
Oneishumanitarianassistanceincivilwars.Frequently,thepeoplewe'reprovidingitto
arevictimsofthegovernmentsinthecountry.Whywouldwepunishthevictimsby
shuttingthemoffandstarvingthemsincethey'revictimsofabusebytheirown
government?DowewanttoabusethepeopleinSyriawhoarevictimsoftheAssad
RegimeorofISISforthatmatter?
Two,weshouldnotcutbackhealthprogramsbecausehealthprograms,atleasttheones
runbytheUSgovernment,affectwhetherpeopleliveordie.Ifyoushutdownan
HIV/AIDSprograms,peoplewilldiebecausetheywon'thavetheenterovirals,andit's
certaindeath.
Three,ifwehaveademocracybuildingprogramtopromotehumanrightsandindividual
freedombydevelopingcivilsociety,whywouldweshutdownprogramsthataretrying
toprotecthumanrights?Itdoesn'tmakeanysense.Therearelotsofprogramsthatreally
shouldneverbeshutdown.Infact,abusivegovernmentsthatabusehumanrightsshut
ourprogramsdown.
We'vebeenthrownoutofRussianow,whenIsayus,AID,outofEritrea,outofBolivia
andoutofEcuador.TheChavistasjustdon'tlikeusinLatinAmerica.Putinblamedus
fortheuprisingsagainstus.WhenIsayus,ImeanagainAID,andEritreabelievedwe
weretryingtobuildademocracyrevolutionagainstthegovernmentofEritreasomeyears
ago,sotheythrewusoutofthecountrywhenIwastheaidadministrator.
Ifwegotoofarinpressingthisargumentforcuttingbackonaid,weinfact,mayonthe
longerterm,actagainsthumanrights.Thereareanumberofcountriesthatarenow
functioningparliamentarydemocraciesthat,infact,weremilitarydictatorshipsand
abusiveandyetwehadaidprogramsthere.Theirevolutionintomatureddemocracies
wasaresultofthataidprogram.
Therearefivecountriesspecifically,SouthKorea.PresidentParkwasadictator.Hedid

p.6

abusivethings,buthedidtransformmodernKoreatowhatitistoday.Itwasoneofthe
poorestcountriesintheworld.It'soneofthe13thlargesteconomiesintheworldright
now.
Taiwan,IndonesiawasamilitarydictatorshipsowasGhana,sowasChile.Allofthem
hadlargeaidprograms.Wedidnotshutthemdownandthoseaidprogramsdidalotto
transformthosecountriesintomiddleclassdemocracieswithprivatemarketsthat
respectedhumanrights.
Ifweweretoaggressivelyshutdownalloftheseprogramsincountriesthatwereabusive
tohumanrights,therearedozensofcountrieswewouldhavetoapplythatto,ifweusea
verybroaddefinitionofhumanrights.
WewouldbeshuttingdownthemostimportantinstrumentofAmericanpowerinthe
worldthatcouldtransformtheworldandhasbeentransformingtheworldtoamore
decentandcivilizedanddemocraticworldthatprotectshumanrightsandtheruleoflaw.
Imightalsoaddfinally,ifweaggressivelycarryoutthisprogramtoshutdownaid
programs,thenwewillbeturningprogramsoffandon.Onethingthat'snotunderstoodin
thiscityisdevelopment,longtermdevelopmenttakes15to20years.
Ifyoukeepshuttingtheprogramoffandthenturningitonandturningitoffbecausea
countryabuseshumanrights,youessentiallyarewastinghugeamountoftaxpayer
money.Ifyouhavea10yearprogramor20yearprogramandyoushutitdowninyear
5,allthemoneyyouspent,frankly,iswasted.That'swhythisisreallynotaverygood
ideaintermsit'staxpayers'expenditureofmoney.
Kurt:Thankyou.IwanttogiveOmarthechancetocomeback.Doug,we'veusedup
thetimeforthatsoIwanttogiveOmarthechancetofinishup,butthere'saspecific
pointthatAndrewnowjustmade,thatmaybeyouwouldcaretoaddresswhichisthatUS
aid,havinggonetosomeunsavoryplaceslikeSouthKoreawhenitwasadictatorship,
broughtaboutchange.
Can'tyouthinkofalotofotherexampleswheretheoppositeistrue,whereinfactwe
seemtobeproppingupthatverydictatorship?
Omar:Icanthinkofmany,manyexamples,MobutuSeseSekoinZaire.For33years,
hewastheforcerboyoftheaid.IcanthinkofPhilippinesunderMarcos.Irecallinmy
earlydaysworkingindevelopmentalorganizationsthatGrahamHancockinhisbookin
theearly'90scameout,"LordsofPoverty,"havingtheaidadministratorsdancingwith
ImeldaMarcoswearingoneofher4,000pairsofshoes.
Thatwasacasethatisthereandmanyothers.Ibelieve,goingbacktomypoint,isthat
aidhasgotthreecategoriesandtheonethatwetalkaboutandMr.Natsiosexplainedit
verywell.Ibelievethemilitaryaidwhichispartofthesecuritypackageandthe
developmentaid,thesearewheretheinterestofthecountryshouldnotbesupersededby

p.7

theexpediencyofpolitics.
ThereisanimportantelementofthevaluethattheAmericanpeopleputonaid,whichis
thevalueofpromotingdemocracy,humanrightsandfreedomandthegovernmentofthe
UnitedStatesshouldreflecttheseaspirationsoftheAmericanpeople.Thatiswherethe
conditionsshouldbethere.TherearecountrieslikeEgypt,forexample.
WehaveputforeignaidinEgyptforthelongesttime,andweendedupwiththe
implosionoftheMubarakregimeandGodknowswhereEgyptisgoingaswespeakright
now.ThereisaconditionthatitwasapartoftheCampDavidagreementandall.
It'sstill,iftheywereconditionsthatthisassistanceishookedtothehumanrights
measuresthatwearetalkingabouttoday,wewillseeadifferentoutcomeinEgypt,and
perhapswewouldhaveseenanoutcomelikeSouthKoreaorGhanafortheexamplethat
Mr.Natsiosputoutthere.
Kurt:Douglet'sgostraighttoyouthen,sincethat'sgoingouttoyourfieldhere,which
isthesecurityarea.Dowehavetheluxuryofnotprovidingsecurityassistanceinsome
cases,eventhoughtheremightsomehumanrightsabusesbyaregime?
DougOllivant:Itjustdepends.WecanallapplaudthemotivationsoftheLeahy
Amendment.Weallwishthatwelivedinaworldwherewecouldalwaysnotsupport
militaryandpoliceforcesthatconducthumanrightsabuses.Wehopethatwecouldcut
offouraidtothemandnotsupportthem.Butwhatifthesetroublesomefightersarethe
soleavailableforcestouseagainstanevenworseopponent.
Tomakethisverypractical,that'sthedilemmatheUnitedStatesisfacingtodayinIraq
andSyriainthefightagainsttheselfproclaimedIslamicState.Theforcesarrayed
againsttheIslamicStateareineverycasedeeplyproblematic,andintwocases,the
KurdishPKKandIraqiHezbollah,oftenabbreviateasKH,they'reactuallyformally
designatedterroristgroups.
Redlines,oratleastpinkones,wecertainlydidn'tdoanythingtothePKKwhenthey
helpedevacuatetheYazidi.Lifeit'sverycomplicatedwhenyouhaveadesignated
terroristgroupprovidingahumanitarianassistanceforagroupthat'sfacinggenocide.
YouhavetolookattheentiretyoftheantiISILforces.Again,noneofthesegroups,
thereisnogroupfightingagainstISIL,ontheground,thathasnotbeencrediblyaccused
ofhumanrightsabuses.
Insomecasesofarathersubstantialform.Doesthatmeanweshouldnotgivethemaid?
Ofcoursenot.Wehavesomeotherequitiesatstake,thisdoesn'tmeanthatinthelong
termwedon'twanttotransformtheseforcesandgetthemtothere,butinthemeantime
wehaveotherequities.
Kurt:Great,thankyou.Here'sawaytomaybegoatthis.AndrewNatsiosgaveusthree
typesofaidthatshouldbeexemptfromconditions.Beforegettingtowherewemight

p.8

havehumanrightsasacondition,protectingthevictimsinacivilwar,healthprograms,
andyourthirdagain?
Andrew:Democracy.
Kurt:Democracypromotion.Isthatsomethingthatallofyouagreeon?Isthat
somethingweshouldsay?Raiseyourhandtosay,"Yep,thoseareexempt,we'retalking
aboutsomethingelse?"
Doug:Letmejustquibblewithonepoint,andIrarelyquibblewithAndrewNatsios,he's
myformerbossandIstillworkforhimatsomelevel.
[laughter]
Doug:Administrator...
[crosstalk]
[laughter]
Doug:Exactly.Howaboutinsituationswheretherehavebeensituations,Italkedearlier
aboutweshould,Iagreewithyouinprincipleaboutfoodassistanceandhumanitarian
assistanceespeciallyinsituationslikeacivilwar.ButduringtheRwandangenocide,
therewasaparticularmomentwhereanumberofgroupssaid,"Wecannotactually
provideassistancebecausethefoodisbeingdiverted."Letmejustcomebacktoyou...
Andrew:Shutoff.
Doug:Itshouldbeshutoff.IftheNorthKoreanswouldletuscomebackin,Iwould
arguethatweshouldbeabletobackintoNorthKoreaandprovidefoodassistance.I'm
assumingyouwouldagreewiththat?
Andrew:Theonlyjustificationforshuttingdownhumanitarianassistance,ifwe'renot
assuredthatthebulkoftheaidisgoingtothevictims.Ifit'snotgoing,thenit'snot
carryingoutitspurpose,weshouldshuttheprogramdown.WehadapolicyinAID
whenIwasadministrator,weofferedtheNorthKoreansalargeamountoffoodaid,
becausetheyhaveacontinuingproblemwithsevere,acutemalnutritionintheirsociety,
theirchildrenaresuffering.
Butwewereafraid,andwehadevidence,thatthefoodwasbeingdivertedbythesecret
policeandthemilitary.Wesaid,"Hereare10thingsthatarerequiredifyouwantusto
providetheaid.Ifyoudon't,we'regoingtoshipthefoodeverymonth.Theyagreedtoall
therules.Ifyouviolatetherules,thenextshipment'sbeingcancelled.Twicewestopped
theshipments.Theywentintoaragethesecondtime,theythrewusoutofthecountry,
theysaid,"Wedon'twantyou."Wesaid,"Fine,we'llleave."
Kurt:Daniel,continue.

p.9

Daniel:Letmejustmakeoneadditionalpointis,ifweareinasituationwherewe're
forcedtobeinacountrythatismorallycomplicated,itseemstomethatifweultimately
wanttochangethenatureofthesociety,and,asIsaidearlier,Ithinkweshouldbeusing
allinstrumentsofstatecrafttosupportmovinginthedirectionofhumanrights,and
havingcountriesjointheworldbasedordersetupafterWorldWarII.
Oneofthethingsweshouldbethinkingaboutishowwegetchangemakersinasociety
outoftheirsocietytotheUnitedStatesforspecificpurposes.I'mthinkingofacountry
likeKazakhstan.Kazakhstanforthelast20yearshashadaprogramwherethey're
sending3,000oftheirstudentsoutsideofthecountrytostudymainlyintheUS,but
elsewhere.
It'shavingaprofoundimpactonthesocietyasmanyofthesefolksgobacktotheir
country,they'renowinmidtoseniorlevelpositionsinthegovernment,andinbusiness.
Theywantadifferentkindofsociety,andIthinkifwe'regoingtohavetotakethelong
viewofdevelopmentassistanceandsoon,democracyandgovernancepromotion,we
shouldbethinkingaboutifwe'reforcedtobeinasocietythat'smorallyrepugnant,or
doingthingsthatweabsolutelydisagreewith,weneedtobethinkingaboutwhatarethe
instrumentsthatwecanusetochangethatsocietyovertime.
Kurt:OK,Omer,youwantedtojumpin.
Omer:ThisisfrommyexperienceinSomalia,forexample.Wedon'thaveevena
governmentthere,sohowareyougoingtodealwiththatsituation?Ibelievethe
assessmentshouldbethatitwasafunctioningcountry,andhadagovernment.
However,therearepeoplethere,theyareinneed,andwehavetolookatthe
humanitarianfactorhere,pureandsimple.Thereisnowaythatwecanassesslateron
AlShabaabortheseothermilitantorganizationscametoexistence.
BeforethatinthetimethatIwasworkingtherein'92and'94andbeyond,therewasno
government.Theassessmentshouldbethattherearepeopleinneedofaid,wearegoing
toprovideitregardlessoftheotherdimensionsofthesehumanbeings,andthatisacase
whereit'soneinamillion,maybe,butIwilljustadditthere.
Kurt:Douglas,turntoyou.Aneasyexamplethatalreadycameup.Egypt.Egypthada
militarycoup.
Doug:Wedon'tcallitthat.
Kurt:Exactly,andwhydon'twecallitthat?
Doug:Wehaveverycutanddriedlaws.Wedonotprovideassistancetomilitariesthat
haveengagedincoups.Therefore,accordingtotheUSgovernment,therewasnocoupin
Egypt.Wealsodon'tsaytherewasn'tacoupinEgypt.We'rejustagnosticonthattopic.

p.10

Kurt:Doug,playitout.Playitout.Egypthadamilitarycoup.Werefusedtocallitthat.
Wedidnotcutoffaid.EgyptisnowthrowingusoutandbuyingarmsfromtheRussians,
andcrackingdowningrosshumanrightsabusesagainsttheMuslimBrotherhood,700
peopleexecutedinaday.
Doug:Exactly.Egyptis,nowAfghanistanisnumberone,isournumberthreerecipient
offoreignaid,andwehavetowonderhowmuchbangarewegettingforourbuckin
Egypt,andisthisacasewhereweprobablydon'twanttocutEgyptoff,that'stoostrong
asignal.
ButisthisacasewherewecouldtellEgyptthatmaybeweneedtothinkaboutafairly
seriousreductioninyourmilitaryaidtodemonstratethatwe'renothappywithanumber
ofthings,startingwiththecoup/noncoup,butthenmovingalongthroughyourhuman
rightsabuses,whatyou'redoingtotheMuslimBrotherhood,etc.Westillhaveequities,
butmaybewedon'thaveasmanyasweoncedid.
Kurt:Youthinkthat'sgoingtoimproveEgyptianbehavior?
Doug:Notnecessarily.Butthenatleastwe'renotthrowingourmoneyatthem.
Kurt:[laughs]Omer,whatdoyouthinkofthat?
Omer:This,especiallythispointofchangingbehavior,becausethatisoneofthethings
thataidwilldo.Wewantcertaingovernmentstochangetheirbehaviorandbecomemore
open,moredemocratic.Incases,IcamefromSudan,sotheregimeinKhartoumhad
beenconsistentlyfor26yearsfrustratingeverycountrythatistryingtoengageandto
makethisregimebehavealittlebitbetterthanyesterday.
Inthatcase,we'vealotoftimeandalotofeffort,andtheUSattheendofthedaywere
onlyengagedwiththegovernmentintermsofthehumanitarianassistance.Thereisvery
littlethatisgoingto,asMr.Natsioswassaying,forpromotionaldemocracyandhuman
rights.Ithinkthereismoreeffortthatshouldbeputthere.
Webypassthegovernment.Itisnoteasy,anditisgoingtobringyouallkinds,fromthe
neocolonialisminAfrica,andthereturnofthisorthat,isgoingtobringyouallthatkind
offrack.Butitisimportanttoworkwiththeorganizationsthataregoingtobypassthe
government.Thesearegrassrootsorganizations,civilsocietyorganizations,topromote
democracyandhumanrightstoforcethatchange.
Becausewithoutthatwearenotgoingtoseechange,andtheviolenceandtheatrocities
willcontinue.Becausethesecountriesdonotbasicallyadheretoanyofthenormsthatwe
adhereto.
Kurt:BeforeIturntoDanielwhowantstojumpin,Doug,doyouthinkthatthe
Egyptiangovernmentisgoingtoallowustogotootherorganizationsaroundthem?

p.11

Doug:Probablynot,they'vebeenquiteemphaticinthrowingoutsomeoftheUSAID,
notyoursIguess,it'sNED's,right?
Daniel:TheythrewoutAIDisthelargestsupporterofIRI,NDI,allofthose,IFIS,they
weretheoneswhowerearrested,andtheywereworkingonaidprograms.Effectively...
Doug:Nogovernmentwantspeopleintheredoingwhattheyperceivetobeundermining
thepoliciesoftheirgovernment.
Kurt:Eventhough,andAndrewmadethispointearlier,wedon'tprovideaiddirectlyto
thegovernmentincases,we'retryingtoprovideotherways.Howthatgovernmentviews
thataidisgoingtodetermineourabilitytodeliverit.
Andrew:Wehaveathingcalledbudgetsupport,wherewemovemoneyintothe
treasuryofthegovernment.Wedon'tdoalotofit,Iactuallyshutitdownexceptwhere
wewereorderedtodoitinPakistanbecauseweneededthemilitarybasesthere,the
Afghanswerecomplainingthatweweren'tputtingenoughmoneythroughthem,sowe
putalittlemoneythere.InJordanwedidit,andwediditinoneothercountry,Egypt,for
strategicreasons.
Everywhereelse,wedidn'tdoit.Nowthey'redoingalotmoreofthat,butit'sstill
limited.MostAIDmoneydoesnotgothroughanygovernmentanywhere,evenin
countriesthataredemocracy,why?Becauseevenindemocraciesmoneydisappears,it's
notaccountedfor.It'snotjustthattheystealit,thesystemandaccountingdoesn'tget
spent,becausetheirinstitutionsaresoweaktheycan'tusethemoneyeffectively.
Daniel:Beforewetalkaboutthisissueofbudgetsupport,therearefadsininternational
development,oneofthemisaroundtheissue...there'sbeensomethingcalledtheParis
Declaration,thatledtotheParisAccraBusanGlobalPartnership,don'task,butit's...
[laughter]
Daniel:...butifyougogoogleit,you'llknowwhatI'mtalkingabout.Theupshotofall
ofthesemeetings,countriesneedtotakeownershipoftheirdevelopment.Whatthatwas
interpretedasbytheofficialdonorcommitteewas,we'regoingtowritechecksthrough
thepipesofgovernmentagencies,thisissueofbudgetsupportthatAdministratorNatsios
istalkingabout.
Ifwecareabouthumanrights,andwecareaboutcivilsociety,oneofthelenseswhenwe
makedecisionsaboutarewegoingtowritechecksthroughthepipesofgovernments,
throughbudgetsupport,isthisissueofhumanrights.Ifyou'redoingthat,you'renotjust
strengtheningwhateverregimeyouhave,andyou'remakingdecisionsaboutI'm
strengtheningthecurrenteliteastheycurrentlyare.
Thereisafad.Atonepoint,DFID,whichisaveryrespectableaidagency,sawitas
almostgospeltruththatalltheirworkshouldbedonethroughbudgetsupport,andit'sa

p.12

badidea.InthecaseofEgypt,Ijustwanttotalkaboutthisissueofworkarounds,thatwe
shouldabsolutelybeworkingthroughcivilsocietygroups.Weshouldbefinancing
independentmedia.Weshouldbesupportingindependentcivilsociety.
Letmecomebacktomypointabouttryingtochangethenatureofthesociety.Ido
believethatwiththeseveralhundredthousandChinesestudentsthatarestudyinginthe
UnitedStatesthataregoingtogobackhome,thatthat'sgoingtoimpactthenatureof
Chinesesocietyinthefuture,hopefullyinapositivedirection.
IthinkinaplacelikeEgypt,weshouldalsobedoingthesamething,totheextentthat
they'reforcingustowritechecks.Throughthepipesoftheirgovernment,weshouldbe
offeringtopayforalotmoreEgyptianstocometotheUSandstudyhere.Ithinkthat
overtime,that'llmatter.
Justoneotherpoint.Idothinktherearetippingpointsinsomesocieties,whereiftheygo
totheWorldEconomicForum,yousay,"I'mfromcountryX,"andyousay,"Oh,you
mustbeaterrorist,"or,"Oh,I'mfromcountryX.""Oh,youmustbeadrugdealer,"thatit
getsembarrassingfortheelitesatsomepoint.
Ithinkthatalsochangesthecalculusofsomefolksinasociety,thatwewanttoalsofind
pressurepointsintheelitestosay,"Thisisn'tworkingforus.Thisbusinessmodelofhow
wetreatpeople,it'snotsofunanymorewhenIsendmykidtoaUKuniversity,theysay
he'saterrorist,ortheysayhe'sadrugdealer."Atsomepoint,thecostbecomestohigh,
andIthinkwewanttoraisethecostforelitesfortheirbadbehavior.
Kurt:Omer,youwantedtojumpin?
Omer:Yeah,justonthepointofbypassing.Isaidit'snotgoingtobeeasy,but
governmentsarenotgoodatthinkingoutsidethebox,sohereweshouldbringother
partners.TheGooglesoftheworldcanbypassgovernmentsandworkwithpeople
directly.Theydiditwith[inaudible33:53]andthoseothersinEgypt,andtheycreated
waysthatthesepeoplecanconnecttoeachother.
Withtheworldnowwired,IbelieveitisahundredtimeseasierthanwhenIwasa
studentattheUniversityofKhartoumandgoingoutandshoutingagainstthe
government,andtheytakemeandthrowmeinjail,andthenthreedayslater,Iwillbe
goingandcollectingthestonesandcomingbackagain.
Nowpeoplehavingmorecreativewaysofdoingthis,businessesshoulddothat.The
government'shookforthebusinessestodothisisthatifthiscountryisbecomingmore
democratic,ifitisgoingtobebalancedintradeandotherthings,youaregoingtohave
theopportunitytodobusinessinthiscountry,ratherthan,"Wearenotdealingwiththese
countries,"andthenyoudon'thaveachancetoopenbusinessesthere.
Ithinkitisimportantthatwebringotherpartnerstoworkwithus,andthenbypassthese
governmentsanddependontheyouth,becausenowtheyaredoingamazingthingsthat

p.13

mygenerationandothergenerationsolderthanuscannotdo.
ThereisaverygoodchancethatpeopleinSudanorinZimbabwetoday,orinSyria,they
canconnectwitheachother.Theinternationalcompaniesthatareworkingin
communication,theycanusethat,andthisisjustoneexample.
Thereareotherexampleswherepoliticalpartiesinsomecountriescanworkwith
politicalpartiesintheoppositioninothercountriesandfosterdialogueoutsideofthese
countries,andbringingthesepeopleback,trainthemtoworkwithotherpeopleonthe
grassrootsleveltoraiseawarenessaboutdemocracyandhumanrightsinthesecountries.
Kurt:Doug,doyouwanttojumpin?Goahead.
Doug:Yeah,justreallyquickly.Workaroundsaregreatwhenwecanmakeithappen.
Thisisonlygoingtohappen,Ithink,inthreecases.One,thestatethinksthatthe
workaroundisinitsinterests.Itwoulddothisanyway,oratleastdoesn'tmindthatthisis
happening.
Second,theydon'treallylikethisworkaround,buttheyseeitasthecostthattheyhaveto
payforsomeothergoodthatthey'regettingfromus.Orthird,it'sjustsosmalltheydon't
noticeit.
Inthemain,again,countriesdon'tlikeothercountriescominginanddoingthingsthat
theyperceivetobeunderminingthesocietythattheylivein,thattheyexistin,andthat
theseelitesareatthetopof.Changethreatenstheeliteswhoareatthetopofacertain
system.
Kurt:That'sexactlygettingtothepointIwantedtoraisenext,aswell,too.Whichis,if
wewanttoseelongtermchange,whatSecretaryofStateCondoleezzaRiceusedtosay
wasabalanceofpowerthatfavorsfreedoms,thatovertime,youseeamovementinthe
directionoffreedomanddemocracy.
Wecanmakeindividualdecisionsinindividualcasesandsay,"Egypt,well,it'sa
problem,butwe'renotgoingtocutoffallaidtoEgypt."Or,inthecaseofSudan,"Well,
wecandothisorthat,butwedon'twanttocutoffbecauseofthehumanitarianorother
things."
Butinmakingeachofthoseindividualjudgmentcalls,don'twethenfailtomakealong
termdifferentiationbetweenthecountriesthataredoingthingsrightandthecountries
thataredoingthingswrong?
Andrew:Letmeputthisinalargercontext,becausewe'respeakinginanabstractway.
Therearecountriesintheworldthatareabusiveofhumanrights.Ethiopia,forexample.
ButifyougotoEthiopianow,andI'vebeengoingtoEthiopiaforalmost27yearsnow,
Ethiopiaisgoingthroughaprofoundeconomicchange.
Theremaybecorruption.Theymoweddownahundredstudentsandprotestersafterthe

p.14

elections10yearsago,wheretherulingpartyalmostlost.However,itisnotapredatory
regime.Theyaredevelopingthecountry.They'rebuildingroads.They'rebuildingthe
largestdaminAfrica.Theirhealthcaresystemissubstantiallyimproved.Theirfood
securityisimproved.
They'reattemptingtobuildtheeconomy.Theyhavea12percentgrowthrate.They'renot
lootingtheeconomytostealallthemoneytomovesomewhereelse.It'sthesamekindof
regimethatwasinSouthKorea.It'sverymuchlikePresidentPark'sregime,whobuilt
modernKorea.Washeabusive?Yes,butwashedoinggoodforthesociety,whichinthe
longtermcreatedamiddleclassthatcausedtheuprisingthatledtoademocratizationof
SouthKorea?
Thatiswhat'shappeninginEthiopianow.Amiddleclassisdeveloping,andtheyknow
whatthey'redoing.Thatultimately,theyarecreatingthedynamicthatwillcausethe
dictatorshiptoeitherbeoverthrownortograduallyevolve,whichiswhathappenedin
SouthKorea.It'llhappeninEthiopia.
Kurt:ShouldwebegivingaidtoEthiopia?
Andrew:Yes,weshould.Becausetheevidenceistheyareusingtheaidconstructively
forthepurposesforwhichitwasmeant,andthereisasubstantialimprovementinthe
livesofpeople.Thereisgrowth.
Now,iseverythingideal?No.Thisisthewayitreallyworks.Wenegotiatewiththese
governments.Wesay,"Look,youlikethehealthprograms.Youwanttheagricultural,
butyouneedtoallowustoalsobuildsome...""No,wedon'tlikethecivilsociety
program."Theywouldtellme,"Wejustwanttheotherstuff."Isaid,"No,youcan'thave
justtheotherstuff.Youhavetohaveboth.That'showwework."
Kurt:Daniel,dowegiveaidtoEthiopia?
Daniel:WegiveaidtoEthiopia,butIthinkweshouldbepushingonthisissueof
technologythatOmerwastalkingabout.Ithinkweoughttobeempoweringasmany
peopleaspossibleoutsideofthegovernmentandoutsideoftherulingparty.Weoughtto
bepushingashardaswecantogettothatdaywhenit'snotaonepartystate.
Ialsothinkthattherethings,likeIsaid,wecanbedoingonsupportingindependent
media,supportingvariouspartsofcivilsociety.Itcouldbeenvironmentalgroups.It
couldbewomen'sgroups.
Idobelievethatwedon'thavetotake...Theycan'tjusttellus,"Thisiswhatwewant,"
andgivethemablankcheck.Weoughttobeabsolutelypushingasfaraswecanto
operatefromourprinciples.Withinsomeconstraints,butIthinkweoughttobepushing
ashardaswecaninthedirectionofhumanrights.
Andrew:Bytheway,Iagreewiththat.That'swhatIjustsaidindifferentform.

p.15

[laughter]
Kurt:I'mgoingtocometotheaudiencenextafterthislastquestion,andI'mgoingto
poseittoOmerfirst.ButIwantyoutobethinkingofwhatyou'dliketoask,andI'llbe
callingonyou.
IftheUSisengagedinprovidingsecurityassistance,andwedothisallovertheworld,
Colombia,Iraq,alliedcountries,Egypt,andthosecountriesareengagedinserious
repressionofhumanrights,possiblyevenusingtheassistance,thearms,trained
personnelthatwe'veprovided,whatshouldtheUnitedStatesdoaboutthat?
Omer:Oneprofessoratonetimetoldmethatifyouwerefacedwithadifficultquestion,
youcanalwayssay,"Itdepends,"andyoutakeapose."Itdepends."
[laughter]
Omer:Sopeoplethinkyouareintelligent.Itdepends,because,seriously,countrieslike,
sayforexample,Egypt,wearegivingsecurityassistanceto,whichincludesthemilitary
package.Wetalkedabouthowbaditwasmanaged,andhowbadthecountrytrajectory
hadbeenbecauseofthis.Butwewillthinkintheabsenceofthat,whatwillhappen.
Again,wehavetohavetheseconditionsthatthesecurityofthatcountryissupposedto
bepartofthesecurityoftheUnitedStates,aswell,andthisiswheresomeofthese
questionswerelostinthewaronterrorism.Becausewelookatthisas...
Sudan,forexample.Abadcountry,andwearenotsupposedtogivethemmilitary
assistance.ButSudanhadbeenreportedlyinbedwiththeUnitedStateswhenitcomesto
intelligenceandworkingtocombatterrorism.
Inthatrespect,youarelookingatwhatthesecurityoftheUnitedStates,andthisis
becauseofthebargainingpoweroftheUnitedStates,ratherthanlookingatalso,inthe
samevein,whatdoesthesecurityoftheSudanesepeoplelooklike?
Itisnotaonewaystreet,thatbuildingonthesecurityofonecountrysothatwecan
benefitfromthisasasecurityoftheUnitedStatesaloneisnotgoingtowork,becauseat
onepoint,thatisgoingtobethreatened.Themutualsecurityrespectisimportant,andthe
conditionsthataregoingtobeputforthnottoallowthiscountrytoabusethesecurity
assistance.
BecauseinChad,forexample,orinCentralAfricanRepublictoday,iftheUnitedStates
islookingatanythingthatisrelatedtosecurity,weareonlylookingatcombatingBoko
Haram,forexample,ortheother...Butwedon'tknowwhatthepeopleofChadandthe
peopleofCentralAfricanRepublicsecuritythreatsare.
Itisimportantforustolookatthat,andalsoputtheconditionsthatthissecurity
assistancecannotbeabusedbythecountryorbythegovernmenttoactuallyprovide
moreinsecurityintheirowncountries.

p.16

Kurt:Doug,Iwanttobringyoubackinagain.Itsoundsgood."Herearetheconditions.
We'reonlygoingtodothisifyouagreetotheseconditions."Iremember,forexample,
renditionsafter9/11.Syriawasagoodexample.Wesaid,"We'regoingtoreturnthese
peopletoyou,butpleasedon'tdoanythingtothem."SaudiArabia,aswell.I'mnotsure
howgoodtheirfollowthroughwas.
[laughter]
Doug:Yeah."Pleasedon'tdoanythingtothem,butwewillhavesomeonesittingoutside
thedoortogetthereport."
[laughter]
Doug:Wedon'tdothatanymore.Look,thesecurity,again,itdepends.Iliketobreak
downthesecurityassistanceintotwopieces.Thesecurityassistancethatgoestothe
country,whenitcomestotransferringtechnology,transferringweapons,thegivingof
weapons,eventhepermittingofarmsdeals,thatneedstobethoughtveryseriously.
Although,again,wealsohavetolookattheworldmarket.Ifwedon'tgivesomeone
arms,someoneelsewill,andwehavetobecognizantofthat.Thenthere'sthesecurity
assistancethatwegivebybringingtheseofficershere,andIthinkthisneedstobelooked
atalmostmoreasaneducationprogram,alongthelinesthatDanwastalkingabout.
Ofcourse,thisremainsverycontroversial.Because,famously,theSalvadoranswhowere
involvedinthekillingsoftheJesuitsandnunsinElSalvadorwereeducatedhere,andthe
demonstrationsstillhappenatFortBenningeveryyearontheanniversaryofthat.ButI
tellacountervailingstory.WegenerallylookatColombiaasapositiveexample.
WhenIwasayoungofficeratFortBenning,wehadaColombianofficerwhowas
associatedwithus,andanumberofus...Iwasn'tinthecarthatday,butIheardthestory
later.Anumberofhiscolleaguestookhimtoabaseballgame.Theguywasdrivingtoo
fast,gotpulledover,wroteaticket.
Theydriveaway,andtheColombianlooksathimverypuzzledandsaid,"Whydidn't
youjustpulloutyourIDcardandshowhimthatyouwereamilitaryofficer?"Ofcourse,
thisisanarmytown.Theguysoutsideusdon'tlikeusverymuch,sowe'relike,"Oh,that
wouldhavedoubledtheticket."
[laughter]
Doug:Thatgaveusaveryinterestingconversation,though,thenextdayabout,"Well,
we'reaprofessionalarmy,andwedon'tgetanyprivilegeshereindomesticsociety.By
theway,ifyouwanttobeaprofessionalarmy,youreallyoughttostarttakingsome
morestepsthatdirection."
Whatthemilitariespickuphere,whattheirofficerslearnfromseeinghowAmericans
liveinsociety,howAmericanmilitaryofficersliveinciviliansocietyIthinkis

p.17

somethingveryimportant,alongthesamelinesofwhatDan'stalkingabout,whatthe
studentswillcarrybacktotheirhomecountries.
Kurt:Fromtheaudience,doIseeahand?Iseeonehereinthebackright,andIseeone
onthefarleftthere.Ithinkthemicisclosertoyou,sir,rightnow.Oh,wehaveone
cominghere.Verygood.Ma'am,goahead,andpleaseintroduceyourself.
ShannonGreen:Thankyou.Hi.I'mShannonGreen.I'mthedirectorofthehuman
rightsinitiativeatCSIS,andacolleagueofDan's.YouprobablyimaginewhereIfallon
thisissue,butIwantedtoquibblealsowithtwoofthecarveoutsforhealthprogramsand
fordemocracy,humanrightsandgovernanceprograms.
Evenwhentheydon'tgetroutedthroughthegovernment,thereareprogramsthatcan
continuetosupportanauthoritarianregime.Forexample,ifyou'reprovidingruleoflaw
assistanceorcourtadministrationsupportinacountrythat'sabusinghumanrights,that
canstrengthenthehandofajudiciarythatisn'tindependentandisactingatthebehestof
thegovernment.
Samethingwithhealthprograms.Youcanbedeliveringanassistanceinawaythat
favorscertaincommunities,andbuildsorshoresupyoursupportinthosecommunities.
I'mcuriousaboutwhetherthepanelwouldsupporttheideaofdoinganassessmentor
havingalitmustest,evenwithinthosesectors,ofwhetherthatsupportstrengthensthe
handoftheregime,orifitinfactstartstobuildthoseindependentvoicesand
communitiesthatultimatelywillbeneededtousherinamoredemocratic...
Kurt:Let'sdirectthattoAndrew,becausethoseareyourcriteria.Howdoyouexecute
thosecriteriaeffectively?
Andrew:Wecandebatethisalot.Ihavetotellyouthatmostineffectiveprogramsin
thedemocracyfieldareruleoflawprograms.Theydon'tworkverywell.
Evenindemocraciestheydon'tworkwell,andIhaveatheoryasto...There'sabigdebate
inthescholarlycommunityastowhythatis.Ithinkit'sbecausetheelitesknowifthey
losecontrolofthelegalsystem,theylosecontrol,period.Thethingthatdistinguishesa
highlyadvancedsocietythatisfreeanddemocraticisanindependentjudiciaryandthe
ruleoflaw.
ThegreatestgifttheBritishgaveuswasthecommonlawlegalsystemweinherited,that
existedfor150yearsbeforetheRevolution.Thatiswhywearehereasweare,isbecause
ofthatlegalsystem.
Itisverydifficulttobuildthat,particularlyovertheshortterm,soI'mnotevensurethat
ithelpstheauthoritarian.Itdoesn'thelpanybody,frankly.It'sdonebecausetheAmerican
BarAssociationthinksit'sawonderfulthing,andCongresshasabunchoflawyers,and
theysay,"Whyaren'tyoudoingtheseprograms?"

p.18

Quietly,theaidpeoplesaid,"Andrew,thesereallydon'tworkverywell.Butwe'lldoit
becausewe'reunderpressure,andtheykeepattackingusifwedon'tdothem."Idon't
agreewithyoutheyreallyhelptheregimeatall.They'rerelativelyineffectiveoneither
side,butwestilldothem.
I'mwillingtotrytoexperimentwiththem.Butpersonally,wedothingsinthecity
becauseofpressuregroupsfromCongress.Buteffectively,inthefield,that'snotthe
most...ThemosteffectivethingAIDdoesinthefieldisbuildcivilsociety.InEgypt,
Egyptdoesnotallowus.Itisthemostcontrollingcountryintheworld,otherthanNorth
Korea.
[laughter]
Andrew:Thereisanexception,buttheEgyptiangovernmentwillnotletusgiveany
moneytocivilsociety.Infact,whenourmissiondirectorIwon'tmentionhisname
andtheUSambassadorsupportingthemissiondirectorwasdoingthatwhenMubarak
collapsed,theywerebothfired.
TheStateDepartmentrecalledtheUSAIDmissionthereandfiredhimbecausethe
defenseestablishmentinEgyptandthepolicewerelividthatweweregivingaidtothese
smallcivilsocietyorganizationsthatwerenotcontrolledbytheEgyptiangovernment.
Ourmissiondirectorwasfiredfordoingit,andtheambassador,acareerambassador,
wasfired,too,forthesamereason.
Bytheway,theydidn'ttellhim.Theyjustleakedittothe"WallStreetJournal."He
foundoutaboutitinthenewspaperthathe'dbeenfired.
Kurt:ItsoundslikeacaseforcuttingoffaidtoEgypt.Isthatwhatyou'rearguing?
[laughs]
Andrew:No.Iamarguingthatcertainregimesdonotliveundertheillusionthatyou're
goingtobeabletodothesekindofprograms.
Kurt:Daniel?
Daniel:IthinkShannon'spointisagoodone.It'salittlebittomypointaboutthis
budgetsupport,andpickingwinnerswiththeassistancemoney.Ifyou'reonlygoingto
setuphealthclinicsintheregionwhereyourclanis,that'saproblem.Orthesortsofrule
oflaw,andyourruleoflawisabsolutelyatrocious,that'saproblem,soItakeyourpoint.
Iagreeinprincipleaboutthat.
Letmeputaslightnuanceonthatandsayit'ssomethingforustothinkabout,whichis
wenowhavetheemergenceofaglobalsoftpowercompetitorintheformofChina,and
thishasn'tcomeupyet,butIwantedtotalkaboutthis.
TheAsiaInfrastructureInvestmentBankItalkedearlierabout,they'repragmatically
amoral.Icanguaranteeyouthatultimately,they'regoingtomakeallsortsofnoises,but

p.19

they'renotgoingtofollowtheMarquisofQueensberryrulesonhumanrights.They're
notgoingtofollowtheMarquisofQueensberryrulesontheenvironment.
They'llmakesomenoises,"Oh,we'regoingtolookatwhattheglobalstandardsare,"
whichistheWorldBankstandards,ortheRegionalDevelopmentBankstandardsonthis,
butthey'renotgoingtofollowit.
Ithinkoneofthecomparativedisadvantagesthatwe'vehadistoreflectourvalues,which
Iamcompletelyinfavorof,it'snowbecomesohardtodoinfrastructureprojectsor
certainkindsofprojects,becauseittakestwoorthreeyearsofassessmentsofthekind
thatyou'rereferringto,whichIagreewith.
Ifwe'regoingtodothem,whichIthinkweshould,we'regoingtohavetodoaheckofa
lotbetterjobofdoingthemonacompressedbasis.Idon'tthinkweshouldsellthefamily
silveronourvalues,butwe'regoingtohavetorealizethatwehavesomebodynow
breathingdownournecksintermsofsaying,"Ifittakesusfiveyearstomakeadecision
aboutaproject,theChinesewilljustsay,'Well,here'sthemoney,andlet'sgetgoing.'"
Thenwe'vegotaproblem.Ithinkwehavetobalanceit,soItakeyourpoint.Letmejust
makeoneotherpoint,whichisaboutmilitaryassistance.Ijustthinkthisissueofwhat
happenedinMexicothisweekisveryunusual.Wedidn'tcutoffourrelationshipswith
Mexico.WehaveagreatrelationshipwithMexico.It'soneofourmostimportanttrading
partners.It'soursecondorthirdlargesttradingpartner.Wearetheirlargesttrading
partner.
We'vecomealongwayinourrelationship.We'vedonealotofthingstobetheirpartner,
butevenstill,wefail...Totheadministration'scredit,theysaid,"Wewanttosenda
signal.Outofthe30orsomillioninmilitaryassistance,we'regoingtocutfivemillionof
it."
Veryunusualtosendasignalthat"WhathashappenedwiththosestudentsinMexico
thatwerekilledistotallyunacceptable,andthestepsthatarebeingtakenarenot
adequate,andyou'reourfriend,andweshouldbeabletohavestraightconversations
witheachother,andthisjustisn'tacceptable."
Kurt:Andrew,addressMexico.Isn'tthisgoingtobackfire?
Andrew:Letmejustmentionthislarger...It'sactuallytheopposite.KimElliotisatthe
CenterforGlobalDevelopment.Shedidamultivolumestudy,ahugestudy,ofall
sanctionsregimestheUnitedStatesandtheEuropeanshaveestablishedsinceWorldWar
II.Howeffectivehavetheybeen?
It'squitefascinatingwhattheresultswere.Theresultsare,thatforouradversaries,our
enemies,they'realmostineffective.Wedoallthisstuff.Cuba,NorthKorea,etc.Itdoes
notchangetheirbehavior.There'snoevidenceitchangestheirbehavior.Theyhavevery
littlechange.

p.20

Itdoes,whenweimposesanctionsonourfriends.Thereasonis,one,itembarrasses
them,Two,theywantgoodrelationswiththeUnitedStatesandtheirpublicthinksthe
UnitedStatesistheirbestallyandyetwe'regettingsanctionedwhat'sgoingonhere?
Itdoesputpressureonthemonthingslikehumantraffickingandalllikethat.Wehad
verycloseallieslikeIsraelandGreece,hadterriblerecordsonit.Theychangedtheir
behaviorbecausetheyweresoembarrassedbybeingputinthisStateDepartmentrecord.
Ihavetosay,though,itdoescreatetheimpressionthatweareattemptingtotransform
theentireworldandmuckaroundineverybody'ssociety,andthereisacertainarrogance
toit,Ihavetosay.
Iunderstandwhywedoit.IhatehumantraffickingofanykindanywhereandIsupport
humanrights.However,there'salimittoitwhenitbecomescounterproductive.Our
friendsinothercountrieswillsayIhavehadSudanesetellmeprivately,"Andrew,if
yougotoofar,eventhecivilsocietyorganizationswillopposewhattheUnitedStatesis
doing,ifyougotoofarwithit."Therejusthastobeabalance.
Kurt:Inthebackrow,please,introduceyourself.Trynow.
IsaacMacos:Hello?Excellent.MynameisIsaacMacos.I'mastudentattheAmerican
UniversityandaninternattheWoodrowWilsonCenter.Myquestionisabout,there's
beensomediscussionofsecurityassistance,butaboutthesecuritysideofother
assistance.
Couldn'tcuttingoffassistancedriveorincreasesupportfornonstategroups,groupsthat
mightbeopposedtotheUSthatcanoffertoprovidethoseservicessocialservices,
economic,food,thatsortofthing.IftheUScutsoffthatsupportbecauseofhumanrights
concernscouldn'tthatincreasethepopularityorsupportforgroupsthatmightbemore
harmfultoUSinterests?
Kurt:ThisisaHezbollahoraHamasorsomething.
[crosstalk]
Kurt:Omer,wouldyouaddressthat?
Omer:Yeah.AlsowehaveseenthattheSyriansthatwetrained,inthefirsttest,they
lefttheequipmentandtheyrunawayandthenthegovernment...
Itiscasebycase.Ithinkincertaincaseswhereyoucutoffaidorcutoffmilitary
assistancetosendamessagelikeMr.Natsioswassaying,Ithinkitisimportant.That
dependsonwhetherthesearefriendsorfoes.
Wecannotsay,acrosstheboard,thatcuttingoffassistanceisgoingtohelporgoingto
harm.Itiscasebycase.We'veseenwherethisworkedandwe'veseenwhenitwas
counterproductive.

p.21

However,inprinciple,Iwouldsayifthecountrydoesnotrespecthumanrightsandisnot
willingtochange,andthatiswhy,basicallyinNorthKorea,orinSudan,orinthese
placesnothingisworkingbecausethesecountriesarehellbentondoingwhattheyare
doing,abusinghumanrights,becausethecostforthemisalmostzero.
Theydon'thaveanythingtolosebykilling300,000peopleinDarfur,forexample,except
someofficersarescreamingoutthereandcallingitgenocide.Then,inDecember,aswe
say,"Wecannotdoanythingaboutit."
Cuttingthataidtoregimeslikethisisgoingtosendamessagetoboththeregimeandthe
othersthat,ifyoudon'tbehavewearenotgoingtogiveyouachancetobenefitfromthe
aidthatwearegiving.Whataretheotherinsurgentsorthosepeopleintheopposition
want?Theywanttotakethatchairandtheybecomethegovernmenttomorrow.
IwouldrathergivethemtheirlessontodayaroundDemocracy101beforetheygothere
andtheybecomethegovernmenttomorrow.
Kurt:Daniel.
Daniel:Iwanttorespondtoyourquestion.Iwanttorespondtosomethingthat
AdministratorNatsiossaid,whichisIthinkwearecompetingwithotherforcesforthe
heartsandmindsofpeople.Idothinkthatourassistanceisnotonlycorrect,butifwe
aren'tthereitistruethatotherscanmovein.
Ialsothinkthatinthecaseof,say,Hezbollah,Icanrememberthattheywerehandingout
cashattheendofthe2006war.Weweremovingfarmoreslowly.
I'mnotsayingweshouldbehandingoutcashasagoodidea,butIdothinkwehaveto
thinkabout,aswedoourworkwehavetobecognizant.Notonlyarewedoingourwork,
butwe'vegotthesecompetitorsouttherethataregoingtousedifferentsortsof
approaches.Wecan'toperateasifwe'retheonlygameintown,ifIcansayitthatway.
Idothinkwearetheonlygameintown,though,onsomeoftheseotherissues,though,
Andrew,thatisthisissueoftraffickinginpersonsorhumanrights.Ihearthattherearea
lotofcountrieswherewedon'tenjoyhighapprovalratingsbutIthinkifit'snotthe
UnitedStates,whowillleadontheseissues?
Iknowyou'renotsayingthat.
Andrew:WhatI'msayingisweshoulduse...thereasonit'scalledsoftpowerisit's
supposedtobemoresubtle.Whatwedoonhumanrightsissues,weuseagiant
sledgehammer.Webashtheirheadsin.
Thebestkindofchangethatlastsitnotrevolutionarychange.Wedidn'tactually
have...whentheAmericanRevolutionwasnotarevolution,theBritishwerethe
revolutionaries.WeweretryingtoprotectthesystemwehadinplaceandtheBritish
weretryingtochangeit.

p.22

Ifyoulookatrevolutionsinhistory,theyusuallyendupinbloodbaths.Theyseldom
result,withsomeexceptions,indemocraticprogress.Thebestkindofchangeisslow,
incremental...that'swhatthebestaidprogramsdo.Theywearthemdown.Theymake
progressinpressfreedomorindevelopingcivilsociety.
Ifyoulookatsomeofthesecountries,whattheywerebeforeAIDstartedandthen30
yearslateryou'llseetherewerechanges.Bigchanges,buttheydidn'thappenallatonce.
Theyhappenedslowly.
Theystuckasaresultofthat.IfyouseethechangesthattookplaceinSouthKoreaover
20yearsthroughAID,you'llseethecountrywasverydifferentin1961whenParktook
office,andthenwhenhewasassassinatedin1979.Therewerebigchanges,butthey
wereslowandincremental,overalmosta20yearperiod.
Kurt:Wehave,rightbehindthisgentleman,first,DavidKramer,formerPresidentof
FreedomHouseandnowSeniorDirectorforHumanRightsattheMcCainInstitute.
DavidKramer:Thanksverymuch,Kurt.Thankstothepanelistsforaterrificdebate
anddiscussion.
IwanttopresenttheEgyptcase,drilldownmoreonEgyptontothissideofthepanel.
Egypthasnotonlyengagedingrosshumanrightsabusesagainstitsownpeople.Italso
wentafterfourAmericanorganizations.Itwasn'tIFIS.ItwasIRI,NDI,FreedomHouse
wasone,andICFJwasthefourth,aswellasKonradAdenauer.
Myquestionisifyoudon'twanttoconditionassistancetotheEgyptiangovernment,and
militaryassistance,Ithink,isthemainpointthatpeoplebringup.Wecontinue,rather
mindlesslyIwouldargue,the$1.3billioninmilitaryassistancetoEgypteveryyearasif
2011neverhappened.
Ifyoudon'twanttoconditionthatonthehumanrightssituation,andwhattheyhavedone
totheUnitedStates,toAmericansaswellasotherswhohavebeensupporting,including
agentlemansittingnexttome.Whatwouldyoudo?Targetedsanctionsagainstthe
officialswhoengageinthis?
Andrew:IhaveapersonalthingwiththeEgyptiansbecause...isthisbeingrecorded?
Kurt:Yes,itis.
[laughter]
Andrew:IthinkIcanbecareful,OK.
David:Pleaseshareyourpersonalstorywitheveryone.
Andrew:I'vedealtwiththeEgyptians.Iknowparticularlywhomadethedecisioninthis
case.I'mfedupwithdealingwithher.I'mfedupwiththearroganceoftheEgyptian

p.23

government,thecorruptionoftheEgyptiangovernment.
IwasinJordanoncewithKingAbdullah.Isaid,"IfonlytheEgyptianscouldtakeJordan
asamodelandbehavemoreliketheJordaniangovernment."Iknewitwouldenragethe
Egyptians,ofcourse.Itwasinallthenewspapers.Itdid.Itenragedthembecause,of
course,theythinkoftheJordaniansasfarinferiortotheEgyptians.
TheJordaniansaretryingtomakeprogressinallthesethings.TheEgyptiansarenot.
They'replayingus,andwe'relettingthemplayus.
David:Shouldwepayaprice?
Andrew:Idothinkthatweshouldpayaprice.Weshouldn'thaveanaidprogram.
Doug:Theyshouldpayaprice.Whatweshouldnotdoistakeaidtozero.Theyhada
coup,thereforeitgoestozero.Ithinkthat'swhatoursideistryingtodefendhere,that
theseblackandwhiteredlinesthatallowfornoprudentialjudgmentonthepartofthe
implementerscanbe,arenotinallcases,butcanbecounterproductive.
TosaythatEgypthadacoupandtaketheirmilitaryaidtozero,Ithink,wouldbe
counterproductive.Butasizablesliceinittosendaveryclearmessagethatweare
unhappywithallthebehavioryoudetailedissomethingthatpolicymakermaywellwant
toconsider.
Andrew:Personally,onnotthemilitaryside,Iwouldsay,becauseof...they'vekilled
morepeoplethelasttwoelSisi,thanMubarakandSadatandMassarkilledinallthose
years.Theatrocities,theyareatrocitiesonthescalethatthey'recommittingthem.The
securityservice,they'recompletelyoutofcontrol.
Idon'tthinkweshouldbeputtinganymoneyforthebudgets.TheEgyptiansare
extremelyinsistentthatthemoneyhastogothroughtheEgyptianstate.Myviewis,
"Youwantthehelp?It'sgoingtogothroughaidcontractorsandNGOs.Ifyoudon'tlike
that,I'msorry.We'renotgoingtodotheprogram."
Kurt:Letmeaskeverybodyhere,asfollowuptothisthough.Isn'tthisabigproblem
fortheUnitedStatesthatwehaveanEgyptthatisnotonlycrackingdownonhuman
rights,butisalsoreorientingitselfawayfromtheUnitedStates,awayfromthealliance
thatwehad,towardsRussia,towardsaverydifferentroleintheMiddleEast?
Howdowechangethatbehavior?Isgoingaftertheaidorpushingback,cuttingin
somewayisthatgoingtochangethatbehaviororisthatgoingtoreinforcethat
behavior?
Daniel:Iwouldjustsayacoupleofthings.OneisIdothinkthatoneofthethingswe
havetothinkaboutistheycangodownthestreettotheRussians,whichiswhatthey've
beenthreateningtodo,andsay,"WewilltakeourbusinesstotheRussians."

p.24

Which,forawhile,thatwasn'tnecessarilyinthecards.TherewasaperiodwhereRussia
wasn'tasactive.Nowwe'vegotaproblemnowwhereRussiaisintheMiddleEast.
Ithinkthesecondthingiswhatistheactualsizeoftheaidpackagevisvistheir
economy?I'massumingitmustbemorethanahundredbilliondollars.Ican'timagineit's
morethanoneortwopercentoftheGNPofEgypt.
Andrew:No,it'srelativelysmall...
[crosstalk]
Daniel:It'srelativelysmall.Idothinkweabsolutelyshouldbeinsistingon...Also,one
ofthequestionsI'dwanttounderstandis,I'massumingmuchofthearmsthathavebeen
usedfortheseatrocitieshavebeenAmericanweapons.
It'sareallythornyandawfulproblembecausewehavealotofinterestsatstakeinEgypt.
WehavetheSuezCanal.They'reaneighborofIsrael.TheyarethelargestArabstate,I
guess,intermsof[inaudible65:49]population,90millionpeople.
Andrew:85million.
Daniel:85million.Itwaspartofapoliticaldeal,TheCampDavidAccords.The
assistanceisseenthroughthelensofapoliticaldeal,it'snotnecessarilyseenasa
development.It'ssortofpoliticalfirst,it'ssecurity,andthendevelopment.
Kurt:OK.Andrew?
Andrew:IwanttosayonelastthingonEgypt.ThereasonIwouldn'tshuttheprogram
down,IwouldtrytojusttelltheEgyptians,"Wewanttohelpyou,butwecan'tputthe
moneythroughyourgovernmentbecauseofwhatyou'redoing."
However,canyouimaginewhatEgyptwouldbelikeifitdescendedintothechaoswe
hadinSyriaorIraq?It'snotjust85millionpeople,itisthemostdenselypopulatedplace
onEarth.90percentofEgyptisagiantdesert.WithouttheNileRiver,thereisnoEgypt.
Itwouldnotexist.Wherewouldthe85millionpeoplego?ToEurope?
Kurt:[laughs]
Andrew:ToIsrael?Wherearetheygoingtogo?
TheNileRiverrightnow,there'sadambeingbuiltinEthiopia,called"TheGrand
RenaissanceDam."It'sthelargestdaminAfrica.It'stwicethesizeoftheAswanDam.
Dependingontheestimate,therearedifferentstudies,a30percentreductioninwater
flowsintotheNileRiver.TheEgyptiansthreatenedatonepointtobombit.ElSisi,not
elSisi...
Daniel:No.

p.25

Andrew:...Morsydid.Hethreatenedtobombthedam.TheNileRiverisinveryserious
troubleevenwithoutthedam.Egypthasgotmassivedevelopmentproblems,whichif
theyarenothandled,wearegoingtohaveafailedstateonourhands.
Idon'tthinkwecanafford,fromahumanitarianstandpointandastrategicstandpoint,to
havethathappen.TheEgyptiansare,inmyview,theelite.They'rethereasonwhythe
thingisscrewedup.Theywillnotdealwithsomeoftheseissuesbecausethey'reafraid.
Mubarakconstantlysaid,"Stability,stability,stability.Wedon'twantanythingthat's
goingtocauseanykindofunrest."Isaid,"That'sfine.Thenyou'lljustgodownthetubes
overalongerperiodoftime,that'sall."
Kurt:[laughs]
Andrew:Becausethat'swhatyou'redoing.You'reignoringeverything.
Kurt:Doug.
[crosstalk]
Doug:Whatwe'rebringouthereisthattherearealistofthingsweneedtothinkabout
beforewethinkaboutdialingdowntheaid.
TosummarizewhatAndrew'sbeensaying,isthisaregimethat'sworkingitswayoutofa
job,ornot?Ifthey'reanauthoritarianregime.Whetherdeliberatelyornondeliberately.
Isthisafriendlystateoristhisanotsofriendlystate,andhowarethey,therefore,likely
torespondtoourprodding?
Isthisastatethat'sinthemiddleofawholebunchofunstablestates.Therefore,asmuch
aswereallymightlikechange,evenalittlebitmoreinstabilityinthisregionisprobably
notsomethingwewantrightnow.WhereasifitwasinthemiddleofEurope,wecould
probablyputupwiththat.Awholelonglistofthingsweneedtothinkaboutandnot
makethesebinarychoices.
Kurt:Thankyou.Therewasawomaninaredtopthere.Ifwecouldgetthemicrophone
toher.Shewasthefirsttoraiseherhand.
SueGunawardenaVaughn:Thankyou.I'mSueGunawardenaVaughn.I'mwiththe
OpenSocietyFoundations,andformerlyofFreedomHouse.Myexbossissittinginthe
audience,DavidKramer.Hedidn'tmakemecome.Iwasreallyinterestedinthetopic.
[laughter]
Sue:Thisisafascinatingdiscussion.FromEgypt,let'sturntoanothernoncorrupt
country,Burma.
[laughter]

p.26

Sue:I'dliketoaskMr.Natsiosespecially,buttothepanel.WastheUSdemonstrating
prudentialjudgmentwhenweliftedsanctionssoquicklywithBurma,giventhatthere'sa
situationoftheRhohingya,whichisinapregenocidalstate?Wehaveelections
happeningnextweek,andeverythingisreallyupintheair.
Wasthatasmartmove,intermsofourforeignpolicy?Thankyou.
Andrew:TheMyanmarGovernmentinitiated...Theydiditforastrategicreason.They're
sittinginanareaoftheworldthathasagiantcountryof1.4billionpeoplesitting
[inaudible70:03]ofthem,andthey'regettingalittlenervous.
That'sthereasontheregimechanged.It'snotbecausetheylovedemocracy,theywantto
getclosetotheUnitedStates,andtheyrealizetheconditionfordoingthatwassome
easingupofcivilliberties,somebeginningtransformationoftheirregime,andwe're
seeingresistancenow.
We'llseewhathappensintheelections.Iam,tobeverycandidwithyou,skeptical.ButI
thinkweshouldbeholdingtheirfeettothefire.Wehaveanaidprogram.Oneofthe
youngmenthatIpromotedbecausehedidsuchagoodjob,ChrisMilligan,isthemission
director.Ihavegreatconfidenceinhim.Ifhe'sallowedtodohisjobbytheState
Department,Chriswillfigureitout.He'sverycapable...
Kurt:[laughs]
Andrew:...andhe'scommittedtohumanrights,Imightadd.
Kurt:Dan?
Andrew:Buttheproblemis,thattheBurmesegovernmentisreallynotcooperating.
Daniel:Ithinkthisisaninterestingexample.ThiswasanexamplewheretheChinese
overplayedtheirhandandmistreatedthe...Thisisaverycorruptelite.They'remassive
humanrightsabusers.
Theyhadsomequestionsabout"What'sourexit,"and"Whatkindofarelationshipare
wegoingtohavewithChina?Dowelikebeing...?"Therewassomesortofmistreatment
aroundsomekindofaprojectwiththemilitaryelitesthatwassomesortofmomentof
clarityfortheBurmeseelite.Theyweretheonesthatcameoutofthecold.
Idothinkwhencountriesexhibitsomesortofcrediblesignalofwantingtohavesome
kindofrapprochement.Weshouldatleasthearthemout.Idothinkweshouldholdtheir
feettothefire.Iabsolutelythinkweshouldbeusingthefactthattheywantadifferent
relationshipwithusasleverage.Assistanceispartofthat,butIthinkit'spartofalarger
conversation.
Icanthinkofothercountries,ofKazakhstan,whereit'slessspecificto...It'slessextreme.
It'snotafreesociety.IthinkNazarbayevwonhislastelectionwith98percentofthe

p.27

vote.
[laughter]
Kurt:Let's...
[crosstalk]
Daniel:...relationshipwithChina,soweoughttotakeadvantageofit.
Kurt:Let'sbringinanotherquestion.
MikeAlban:MynameisMikeAlban.Ihaveabeancounterkindofquestion.Ithasto
dowiththetheoreticaldiscussionwe'rehavinghereandalsowithmovementof
appropriationsthroughCongressfordevelopmentaidoraidingeneral.
Oneoftheproblems,asIseeit,istheAmericanpublicdoesnotunderstandwhatforeign
aidis.Thereareveryfewmechanismstheycanusetounderstandthis.OneofthewaysI
trytounderstanditisthroughthereportsofSIGARandSIGIR.
TherearecomprehensivereportsofaidprogramsinbothAfghanistanandformerlyIraq.
Therearealmostnoreports,auditorsreports,investigatorsreportscomingoutofUSAID.
BeforethismeetingIcheckedtheAIDauditor'swebsite,InspectorGeneral'swebsite.
Therehavebeentwothisyearsofar.Justsimplytwo.
Andrew:Forwhat?
Mike:Auditorsreports.
Andrew:Therearehundredsofauditor'sreports.Theymaynotbeinthewebsite,but
believemetherearethere.
Mike:Mypointistheyoughttobeonthewebsite.Similarly,statedepartment'sOIGis
alsowaybehindthetimes.
Kurt:Yourquestion?
Mike:That'sit.Isthereawaywecanimprovethiswithinthebureaucracy?Thankyou.
Andrew:IhavetotellyouIwroteanarticle,awidelyreadarticle,that'sonthewebsite
oftheCenterforGlobalDevelopment.It'scalled"TheClashoftheCounterbureaucracy
andDevelopment."It'stheconsequencesofthewayinwhichwedoaudits,whichare
highlyconfrontationaland,frankly,halfthetimealotofitisverysensationalist.
ThespecialIGforIraqandAfghanistanwerehighlypoliticized.ThestuffI'mseeing
fromtheIGinAfghanistanisshameful,becauseit'ssoinaccurate.Infact,I'mdoinga
chapterinabookrightnow.Iamlookingattheiraudits.Theirauditscompletelyignore

p.28

thefactthat451AIDworkers,peoplewhoworkforAIDhavebeenmurderedbythe
Taliban.800havebeenseriouslywoundedinattacks.
Thesearen'tlittleaccidents,they'reassassinated.Someofthemhavebeenbeheaded.
Theydoauditscompletelyignoringthesecuritysituation.Whydoyouthinktheaudits
aresobad?Theyarebadinsomecases.
That'sbecausethepeoplearebeingmurderedinthemiddleoftheprograms.Two,the
statedepartmenttellsAIDallthetime,andthedefensedepartment,wheretospendthe
moneyandwhytospendthemoney.NoAIDofficerwouldeverspendthemoneyin
thoseplaces.Thebadauditsarealmostalways,whatwecall,politicalprograms.
I'llgiveyouoneexample.There'sagasfireandelectricalplantthatwasbuilt,whichI
refusedtobuild.KarzaiattackedmeatalunchinfrontofthePresident.Ourcabinetwas
thereandtheircabinet.Mr.Natsioswillnotbuildtheelectricalpowerplant.Isaid,"You
can'tmaintainit.Wehavenomoneyforit.We'renotbuildingit."
ThePresidentsaid,why.WehadabigfightinfrontofthePresident.
Kurt:Nowyou'reattheGeorge.H.W.BushpresidentialcenterandnottheGeorge.W.
Bush.
Andrew:Buteventuallyitwasbuiltunderpressure.Guesswhat?There'saterribleaudit
onit.TheIGforAIDatleasthadtheintellectualhonestytosayattheendoftheauditin
afootnote,"Wetoldthestatedepartmentthiswasaterribleidealnottobuildit.Itwas
built,"anditsaysintheaudit,"becausethestatedepartmentwantedKarzaireelectedand
Ineedtohavethisplantrebuilt."
Thefactthatitdoesn'tworkanditwon'tworkwasirrelevant.It'sapoliticalaidprogram.
That'swhyAIDshouldbeanindependentagencythatreportstothePresidentasa
cabinetmemberandnottothestatedepartment.Itwasastupidthingtobuild,itwasa
wasteoftaxpayersmoney.
Whoistakingtheabusenow?Isthestatedepartmenttakingtheabuseorthedefense
department?TheyaretheonesthattoldAIDtobuildthething.I'msorrybut...
Kurt:That'sasolidanswertoyourquestion.Thankyou.Intheredshirtthere,the
gentleman.Thatwillbethefinalaudiencequestion.Thenwe'llcometothelastfinal
round.
FrancoBasera:Thankyouforagreatdiscussion.FrancoBaserawithSecurity
AssistanceMonitor.
Pertainingtocounternarcotics,specificallyitinvolvesstatedepartmentanddepartment
ofdefense.Inthepastsixyears,anditjustinvolvessomecountries,theUShasfunded.
Numberone,Afghanistan,second,Columbia,third,Mexico,fourth,Pakistan,andthe
fifth,Peru.

p.29

MyquestioniswhatmessagedoestheUnitedStatessendtotheworldwhenitsupports
abusiveregimesthathaveconflictingdiscourses?Whatbehavioralchangescanit
actuallyelicit?
Thisisinthecontext,Iwanttogivetwoexamples,oftheMexicoMeridaInitiativeand
theassassinationandrepressionduringtheChileangovernmentbyPinochet.
Kurt:Whowouldliketotakethat?Omer,let'sbringyouin.
Omer:Ithinkthisisastarkexampleofwhatweweretalkingabouthere.Therearebad
regimesoutthere.TheUnitedStates,ofcourse,isnotthepoliceoftheworldandwe
cannotpunisheverybody.However,wehaveawayoflookingataidthatisalittlebit
outdatedtoday.Becauseweonlylookatitatthetimewherewehavetopunish
somebodyorwe'regoingtodeprivethispersonorwe'regoingtotakeitawayfromthat
person.
ThecaseofEthiopia,youmadeaverygoodcase,Mr.Natsios,thatEthiopiais
developingnow,butthereisnodemocracy.Thisaprecisetimewhereweshouldsayto
Ethiopia,"Youaredoingwell.Butifyouarenotdoingthisotherthingsaswellweare
notgoingtohelpyou."
Theyseethecostofnotbeingabletobeinthegoodbooksoftheworld.Thatiswhere
youwillbecomemoreeffective.NotinthecaseofSudanwherewegoandwesay,"We
giveyouaidorwedon'tgiveyouaid."Theyhavetheirmindset.Thesearelikehorsesin
theracefield.Theylookatonedirectionandtheyhavealreadymadetheircalculations.
Itisveryhardforus.Thatiswhyweneedthesoftpart.That'swhyweneedtowork
aroundthem.That'swhyweneedtochangesituationsinadifferentway.Forthose
countriesthatwehavetheabilitytoaffect,wehavetheabilitytomakethechange
reasonablywithoutahighcost.
Wecancometothemandsay,"Look,weworktogether,youarebenefitingfromwhat
wearegivingyou.Youaredoingwellinthisone,two,three,foursectors.Butguess
what,wearegoingtostopthisorwearegoingtoreducethis,andyouwillfeelthe
crunchinone,two,three,foursectors.Workwithus.Thecostforyouisgoingtolet
peopledemonstrateintheirfreedomsquareorsomebodywillwriteanarticleina
magazineorinanewspaper."
ThiswillleadmetosomethingthatIwilltalkaboutlater.Thatiswhatistheprinciple,
whatisthehighpillarthatwehaveasacountryandasapeoplethatweholdverydearto
usandwecherishthemost?Thatisfreedom.
AnyAmericaninthestreet,youstopthemandthefirstthingthatcomestoyourmindas
anAmerican,they'llsay,"Myfreedom."Ifthatisthecase,wehavetolookatthisasnot
justthefreedomofthepeopleoftheUnitedStatesbutthefreedomoftheotherpeople
thatwearedealingwith.Wehavetokeepthatasoneofourbasicmeasuresforwhatwe

p.30

candotohelptheothercountriesachieve.
Kurt:Thankyou.Ihopeyoucomerightbacktothatinonesecond.
We'regoingtomovetoourfinalround,whichistoaskeachofourparticipantsinone
minuteorless,youdon'thavetotakeafullminuteifyoudon'twantto,giveusyour
bottomlinerecommendation.WhatshouldtheUnitedStatesdorightnowtoimproveour
handlingofforeignassistanceandhumanrights?DanielRunde.
Daniel:TheUSshouldleadwithitsvaluesanduseallinstrumentsofstatecrafttopush
inthedirectionofgreaterhumanrightsinourinteresttohaveafreerworldandaworld
wherepeople'shumanrightsarerespected.Wewillbesafer.Wewantcountriesto
participateintherulebasedordersetupafterWorldWarIIthatwehavehelped
developed.
Wecanandshoulduseforeignassistancetohelpcreatethatspacethrougheducationand
training.Weshouldbecreatingindependentmediasupportingcivilsociety.Weneedto
becognizantthough.Wecansupporthumanrightsandwecanalsobouncethatwiththe
othervaluesthatwehaveandthatwealsocherish.Humanrightsissomethingthat's
importanttous.
Principlesmatter,itremindsusofwhoweare.Weshouldalwaysbecognizantofour
principlesandstartfromtherefirst.
Kurt:Thankyou.OmerIsmail.Yourbottomline.
Omer:Ibelieveaidisatool.Wehavetousethistoolwisely.Itisnotforpunishing
peopleorrewardingthemforgoodbehaviororbadbehaviorandaddingthescore.Itisa
wayofpromotingideals.Itisawayofpromotingideasaswell.Itisawayofpromoting
business.Itisawayofpromotingculture.
Itiscomingbacktothetaxpayer,theAmericantaxpayer,intermsofthestabilityandthe
goodgovernanceandthebestbehaviorofthesecountriesdealingwiththeUnitedStates
intheinternationalarenaandintheseindividualcountries.
Thatiswhyweshouldtieittooneofourhighestvalues.ThehighestvaluethatIthinkof
isthefreedom,democracyandrespectforhumanrights.Thesearevaluesthattheold
Americanpeopleshare.
Ifthatistheirmoneyandifwearetheirgovernment,thenweshouldtakethesevalues
andlookathowwearegoingtotranslatethistopromoteitintheworldwithoutgoing
outthereandbeingthepoliceoftheworldandpreachingthesearemoralvalues.Then
peopleturnaroundandfindusdealingwithregimesthatarenotkeepingthesevaluesat
heart.Theyarenotevencapableofchangingintosomethingelse.
Wehavetouseitwiselyandwehavetomakeiteffectivewherewecanchangethe
behaviorofothers.

p.31

Kurt:Thankyou.Thankyouverymuch.Truetoourvalues.DouglasOllivant.
Doug:Allofusagreewewantaworldinwhichhumanrightsaremoreobservedtoa
widergroupofpeopletoagreaterextent.Noneofusdisagreeaboutthat.Thequestion
facingustodayisthere'sastronglinkagebetweenaidandhumanrightsintheshortterm
thebestwaytogetustothatend.
Itappearstomethatwehavediscoveredthatwehaveanumberofbinarysystems.The
LeahyAmendmentmostnotablyinsecurityassistancewhereweturnaidoffifcertain
thingshappen,notgivinganydiscretiontoanypolicymakerwhomightthinkthereare
betterwaystogoaboutthis.
I'mgladtheBurmaexamplecameupbecausewealsohavethesamethingintheopposite
direction.ItstrikesmethatinthecaseofBurmaweturnedtheswitchonorbackon
muchtooquicklybeforewewereabletosee,"Isthisyear'selectiongoingtocome
about?HowisBurmagoingtodoinintegratingnotonlytheRohingyabuttheother
minoritiesontheperiphery?"
Mostimportantlyinmymind,wedidn'tseemtonoticethattheirconstitutiongives25
percentoftheseatstothemilitaryandrequires75percentplusonetochangethe
constitution.Thosearesomethingswecouldhaveconditionedandwecouldhavegiven
smallerincrementsforthechangesthatwesawthreeyearsagoandsavesomeofthese
forthisyearandlaterdowntheroad.
Kurt:OK.Alittlenuancing.
Doug:Muchmorenuance.
Kurt:AndrewNatsios,youspentfiveyearsasaUSadministrator,you'rethe[inaudible
84:56]Sudan.Whatisyourbottomline?
Andrew:Bottomlineisthathumanitarianprogramsinconflictzonesorinanatural
disaster,healthprogramsanddemocracybuildingprogramsshouldnotbeusedasa
weapontotrytogethumanrightsbecausewhatyou'redoing,infact,iscompromising
human...Ifyou'redeadyoudon'thaveanyhumanrights.Achildthatdiesfrommalaria,a
millionandahalfchildrendiedfrommalarialastyear.Notlastyear,10yearsago
becausewe'vereducedtheratesdramatically.
TelltheparentsthatthereasonwecuttheaidprogramforMalariaisbecausewedon't
liketheirgovernment.Thekid'sstilldead.Westoppedimmunizingchildrenfrompolio
becausewedon'tlikethegovernment.Tellthechildthatgetsparalyzedthatthey'regoing
tobeparalyzedtherestoftheirlife.We'repunishingtheirgovernmentbynotdoingpolio
vaccineprograms,becausewedon'tthinkthegovernmenthasagoodrecordonhuman
rights.
Itmakesnosensetome.Thenotionthatwe'resupportingoneareaanother...Ihavetosay

p.32

that'salotofbaloney.Achildisachild.Ifthechilddoesn'tgetimmunizedagainstpolio
andtheygetpolio,they'reparalyzedwhicheverprovincethey'rein.AIDtriestodoit
equallyalloverinallthesecountries.
Itdoesn'thavehealthprogramstosupportoneprovinceoveranotherbecauseofthe
governmentinsistingonit.Weinsistonequitywhenwedotheseprograms.Thehealth
programsaretargetedbasedonneed.There'sawholemathematicalformulasweuse
basedoninfectionratesfordiseases,forexample.Thoseshouldneverbesubjecttothe
useasasanctionoraweapon.
Weshouldnotbeprovidingbudgetsupportincountrieswithabusivegovernments.I
thinkweneedtosay,"I'msorry.Thisisoneoftheconditions.Ifyouwantmoneytogo
throughyour,eveninsmallamounts,throughyourtreasury,thenyouaregoingtohaveto
complywithinternationalstandardsofhumanrights."
Iwouldsupportthat,butIthinkforacivilsocietydemocracy[inaudible86:57]
programs,disasterrelief,whichis,bytheway,thelawanyway.It'sbeenthelawfor50
yearsthatwedonotallow...wehaveanotwithstandingclauseinalldisasterrelief.Then
thehealthprograms.Theyshouldbecordonedoff.
Therestofitshouldbenuancedbasedonthecountryandtriedinincrementalapproach,
nottryingtocapsizetheentiresociety.Wewantgraduallytoimprovethehumanrights
situationsoit'spermanent.It'snottemporary.
Kurt:Thankyouverymuch.IthinkthisisaverydifficultandcomplicatedissuebutI
thinkwe'veheardtonightoneofthemostilluminatingdiscussionsoftheseissuesthat
I'vecertainlyseen.Ihopeyoufeelthesameway.
Pleasejoinmeinthankingourdebaters.
[applause]
Kurt:Thatconcludesourdebateforthisevening.Iwanttothankyouallforcoming.
PleasegofromhereandbeambassadorsfortheMcCainInstitute.Tellyourfriends.
Cometoournextdebate,whichIbelieveinWashingtonwillbeDecember3rd.We'llbe
talkingaboutEurope.Thankyou.

TranscriptionbyCastingWords