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20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms

By David Hogberg   
Sun., March 21, '10    3:24 PM ET
Tags: Health Care - ObamaCare - Freedom

With House Democrats poised to pass the Senate health care bill with some reconciliation changes later
today, it is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose.

Of course, the overhaul is supposed to provide us with security. But it will result in skyrocketing insurance
costs and physicians leaving the field in droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. We may be
about to live Benjamin Franklin’s adage, “People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve
neither and will lose both.”

The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation
MOST POPULAR
bill as displayed by the Rules Committee.
20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms
1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to
Obama’s Green Jobs Program: $135,294 Per Job
minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750
annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501) Teague To Vote No; Pelosi’s Margin Now Zero
Cook: Dems Could Lose The House
2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay Hanson’s Prediction Holding Up Well
for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of
whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to
underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage?
Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer.
(Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for
such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services
or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employees’ slacker
children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization,
maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health
treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services;
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preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and
vision care. Hoyer: Angry Rhetoric ‘Not Good For Democracy’
Left-Wing ACORN To Disband
You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who
ObamaCare’s First Victim: Physician-Owned Specialty
can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy
must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302). Hospitals
IBD 100’s Top Five Firms For Sales Growth
7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze Health Care Utopia? Wanna Bet?
plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of
the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles
higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 50 employees) and you do not want to provide health
insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under
the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513). Recommended Web Sites
Ace of Spades Megan McArdle
10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to American Prospect's Tapped Michael Fumento
deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)). Andrew Biggs Mickey Kaus
Barry Ritholtz Nat'l Review's Corner
11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The
Calculated Risk Pajamas Media
Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that
Cato-at-Liberty Patterico's Pontifications
measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the
resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational Donald Marron Real Clear Markets

purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course Drudge Report Real Clear Politics

not. (Section 3003 (i)) Greg Mankiw Reason Hit & Run
Hot Air Regret The Error
12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare Instapundit Tax Policy Center
provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by James Pethokoukis The Democratic Strategist
then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A))
Keith Hennessey TNR's The Plank
Little Green Footballs Volokh Conspiracy
13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B).
Marginal Revolution Washington Monthly
Unless, it is located in a county where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it
has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than
200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed
“unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied.
(Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a
pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell
to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the
U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at
$2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at
$2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that
money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical
device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10%
of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think
you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).

The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a
medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough.
(Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer,
what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your
net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or
$670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion
in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better
spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred
compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint
return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you
earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).

That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates,
and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you
need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you
know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).

Welcome Power Line, Fark.com and Big Government readers.

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Comments ADD NEWSEARCH

qwondre  - Here ya go- with references! It's a start.....   |03-23-2010 22:39:04

10 THINGS EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD KNOW ABOUT HEALTH CARE REFORM
1. Once reform is
fully implemented, over 95% of Americans will have health insurance coverage,
including 32 million who are currently uninsured.2
2. Health insurance companies
will no longer be allowed to deny people coverage because of preexisting
conditions—or to drop coverage when people become sick.3
3. Just like members
of Congress, individuals and small businesses who can't afford to purchase
insurance on their own will be able to pool together and choose from a variety
of competing plans with lower premiums.4
4. Reform will cut the federal budget
deficit by $138 billion over the next ten years, and a whopping $1.2 trillion in
the following ten years.5
5. Health care will be more affordable for families
and small businesses thanks to new tax credits, subsidies, and other
assistance—paid for largely by taxing insurance companies, drug companies, and
the ver...
Reply 0 0
JR  - Thank God   |03-23-2010 22:27:02
Thank God for Government! I was so stupid. I thought I knew what was best for
my family. Now I realize Congress and the Government know best. Health care
for all, will eventually be the same as health care for none.
Hasn't any of
these people ever read an Economics textbook?
Reply 0 0
Joan   |03-23-2010 22:12:34
IT IS ROBBING MEDICARE OF 500 bILLION.
IT IS FORCING AMERICANS TO BUY HEALTH
INS.
YOU WILL PAY HIGHER TAXES, HIGHER INS PREMIUMS.
Reply 1 0
CK  - I'm glad it passed   |03-23-2010 20:57:11
I'm self employed, so this bill is a blessing for me. No more denying access
to health care for people with pre existing conditions. I'll gladly keep
paying my share. No more paying for uninsured people in emergency rooms. In
2014, no more keeping a job you hate because they supply health care. You will
be guaranteed the right to purchase your own as a self employed independent
person. I feel a sense of relief that I won't get dropped from my insurance
plan if I ever get sick and actually need it. This bill is about consumer
protections.
Reply 4 16
Anonymous  - Censored   |03-23-2010 20:52:08
My post was censored. See if I renew my IBD again.
Reply 3 1
Anonymous   |03-23-2010 20:41:18
shouldn't be surprised that the same group that is entirely comfortable
w/spending at least $100 billion a year on wars in the Middle East are outraged
and offended at the idea of spending $100 billion a year on our own health care
Reply 9 10
IK   |03-23-2010 20:34:54
I do not see anything wrong with any of that. If those assertions are true
indeed (I did not read the bill), those restrictions are there. But each
argument against them is flawed. Takle paragraph 6 that deals with a single guy
having to pay for prenatal care. Applying that logic, only adults with children
would have to pay school tax. And what then? The problem of all those who want
to scare people with this bill - be it that it is not perfect, is that they fail
to understand that the right way to see things is from the general to the
specific, and not the other way around. The more people are insured, the more
the hospitals and doctors will benefit. It's the volume. Maybe, and I do not
know it and am just speculating, the rate of compensation will be lower, but
there will be so much more people able to pay. And they will be able to pay for
the preventive care that will drastically cut hospital costs when, like now,
people...
Reply 8 14
Phyllis  - What you can do   |03-23-2010 20:30:25
Call your states Att Gen office...voice support if they are suing, if they are
not, encourage them to do so..register to vote now..do your homework on
candidates in November elections...stop the commie take over with your vote!
Reply 10 6
Chris  - ?   |03-23-2010 20:26:41
I'd just like to point out that the most severe and direct infringement of our
personal freedom, in the bicentennial history of United States, was the
s o-called Patriot Act. So pardon me if I don't take you seriously if you
supported the Patriot Act and all of a sudden this public HEALTH legislation is
too "fascist" for you.
Reply 7 12
Haleigh  - Doctor shortage   |03-23-2010 20:20:43
Its true. I was accepted to both Medical school and veterinary school this past
year. I chose to go to veterinary school because of this healthcare plan. It
will comepletely dictate how doctors practice in the future.
Reply 10 5
SukieTawdry   |03-23-2010 20:18:45
Tom: "1. With ObamaCare's takeove of the student loan system, the federal
government now provide all such loans directly, rather than just reimbursing the
banks. So if the government gets to approve loans directly, the government gets
to decide who gets loans and who doesn’t. "

Not only that, the

government will decide who among the graduates is pursuing a "worthy"
profession and who is not. Someone who goes into "public service" has a
good chance of having his loan forgiven. I guess because "public
service" is such a sacrifice.

Government is supposed to level the playing

field to the extent possible (and prudent), not choose life's winners and
*****s.
Reply 11 1
joseywales   |03-23-2010 20:07:39
Everyone that is concerned about this country and the direction that we are
headed needs to read this article:

http://article.nationalreview.com/4289
96/tattered-liberty/mark-steyn

Reply 5 1
Ydnar Llebpmac  - Wow I'm amazed at....   |03-23-2010 19:56:46
...how many people in the U.S. are actually duped by the lies that this Health
Bill is going to "help" people.
Reply 6 7
joseywales   |03-23-2010 19:53:13
Everyone who cares about this country and is concerned about the direction that
we are heading needs to read this
article.

http://article.nationalreview.com/42
8996/tattered-liberty/mark-steyn?page=1
Reply 2 1
Tom  - College Quotas   |03-23-2010 19:48:50
1. With ObamaCare's takeove of the student loan system, the federal government
now provide all such loans directly, rather than just reimbursing the banks.
So
if the government gets to approve loans directly, the government gets to decide
who gets loans and who doesn’t.

2. Under ObamaCare, 10 to 30 million more

folks are going to be showing up in doctors' offices, and about 30 percent of
the primary care doctors in America will leave the medical profession, creating
massive waits and shortages.

So given one student wanting to get an MBA and

another wanting to be a doctor, the student loan bureaucrat looks at his numbers
and sees the quota for MBAs has been exceeded but the doctor shortage is still
acute. Guess who doesn’t get their loan (some technicality will be found) ?

Can anyone say for sure this isn’t a backdoor way for the government to
control what professions future generations go into? If you need a student ...
Reply 13 2
selfsufficient1  - Social Programs   |03-23-2010 19:45:17
The references to social security made me do some math. (OUCH)
For the number
of years I will pay social security I would have reaped 4,000,000 dollars at a
conservative return rate. I could have spent this money or passed it on to my
children. With social security I will have to live 20 years just to collect
480,000 dollars and I will not have this money to spend or pass down to my
children o my children. Social health care will be a failure too.
Reply 11 3
JLB  - This sucks   |03-23-2010 19:40:23
The solution was to get people back to work so they could get back on a
healthcare policy that was lost when they lost their job. The Pharm Industry
could add 100K jobs paying $23K yearly, for the same money they now have to hand
out for nothing in return. The medical device industry could've added 50K jobs
paying $40K a year for the money they have to fork over. The Insurance Industry
could've added 200K jobs paying $32K a year to branch out into new territory but
now they have to fork it over to the govt. Hey you have nots! Stay in school,
get a job and earn money like the rest of us! Quit asking for a handout! This
is a total mismanagement in funds!!!
Reply 10 2
Rick  - All seems so familiar...   |03-23-2010 19:32:10
Remember a couple years back when the shoe was on the other foot? Remember the
go to responses that Conservatives would repeat over and over?
Now listen to
your own words guys:

1) Not supporting our president is unpatriotic.

2) If you
don't like it, move to another country.

So take your own advice.

Reply 13 27
GE   |03-23-2010 19:25:37
This article made me want to throw up. It's just all about me, isn't it? Has
anyone here ever considered that there are *other* people out there in our
society?
Reply 9 32
Dr. Jason H   |03-23-2010 19:25:30
What this health care bill will effectively do is not only fix a problem that
doesn't exist but will cause multiple more issues. First we will see a mass
exodus of quality physicians who will realize that they would rather retire than
get payed less and taxed more to work very long hours in a very stressful field.
We will also see a decrease in good candidates going into medicine not only
creating a shortage but a dilution of good providers. The idea of good health
care at a low cost is a joke. Good providers will seek a model whereby only
people who have good insurance will be seen thus those who have poor insurance
will no longer get the benefit of going to the same places as people with good
insurance creating a tiered system of care. Because the level of care will
begin to deteriorate you will actually see more medical mistakes and without
tort reform you will see an increase in lawsuits leading to hight malpractice
Reply 17 4
Common Sense  - Get real   |03-23-2010 19:18:10
Everyone here that posted that this is some "conspiracy","rise to
communism", etc is full of ****. Get real and gain some common sense. This
is an attempt to help people who are less fortunate, and those selfish people
who can afford to spare cash will be the ones that contribute the most to paying
for this. Its sad that people are against taking care of one another.
Reply 9 39
Daniel Booker  - Spin it all you want   |03-23-2010 19:01:59
You can spin this issue anyway you want, but America has changed, and we will
reap what we sow. The brave men and women who sacrificed their lives for the
freedoms we today gave away for a pot of mush, will call us fools. What
happened America? We stopped believing in "God we Trust", and believed
a lie instead. Don't stop praying America, God has not moved one bit.
Reply 21 7
selfsufficient1  - Allison Reply choices   |03-23-2010 18:56:11
I can not choose what is best for me. I can not choose a major medical policy
only. My policy will have certain things it has to cover that I will never need.
What will these lack of choices do to my premiums?
Reply 16 3
selfsufficient1  - auto insurance vs health insurance   |03-23-2010 18:50:19
there is a big difference here as with auto insurance you have choices. You may
purchase insurance, or you may show proof of financial responsibility. No
accidents and the money is still yours. With this bill you have to purchase the
insurance and even without claims your money belongs to someone else.
Reply 17 1
EM  - Why   |03-23-2010 18:48:41
This bill will help a lot of people, huh? Why should someone like myself and my
gf have to work our ****s off to provide health care to someone else. By that I
mean, many Americans who take advantage of the system, have large families
irresponsibly and decide to go to the emergency room for everything and
anything. Not only will this bankrupt our country, Raise our taxes, and
quadruple our deficit, but now we will have the same strategic HC used in
European Countries, Canada, etc. Have you (Americans) travel to France, Greece
or Canada to go to a DR/Hospital?
Reply 23 4
**** Lover  - yes   |03-23-2010 18:46:47
As a gay I must say that you're argument is invalid.!
Reply 5 17
**** Lover  - yes   |03-23-2010 18:45:38
As a gay I must say that you're argument is invalid.!
Reply 4 16
**** Lover  - yes   |03-23-2010 18:45:18
As a gay I must say that you're argument is invalid.!
Reply 3 15
Ed F  - [giant eye roll]   |03-23-2010 18:36:05
Do you realize how ridiculous your hysterical rants sound? The sky is not
falling, and your freedom is not evaporating. After 100 years of dysfunction
and misaligned incentives, we're finally doing something about moral hazard and
the fundamental market flaws in today's health care system. Thank God for the
courage of the Democrats to lead and govern on this one.
Reply 9 38
DontTreadOnMe  - CONTINUED   |03-23-2010 18:27:31
"wacko conspiracy theorists" have been warning about since 1960, but you
just laughed at them, calling them "tinfoil hat wearers."

The enemy
is inside and showing its beastly face.
My suggestion is that you GET RIGHT
WITH GOD -- NOW!! -- and put up every conceivable obstacle you can think of to
PROTECT YOURSELF and slow them down when they come get you for the death camps.
Reply 13 14
ProudCanadian   |03-23-2010 18:26:09
Hard to believe that such a large percentage of the population would allow
itself to be so misinformed and misguided by the interests of the large
corporations, and the politicians that "represent" those corporations -
and then campaign and "tea-party" for something that goes against their
own interests.
You would all be so luck as to have a healthcare system like we
do in Canada.

Reply 9 33
Greg  - ObamaCare arguments found lacking   |03-23-2010 18:23:32
All of these Probama poster's arguments suck.

1) "You don't care about

other people." ON the contrary, we do, which is why we oppose a bill that
will reduce the quality of health care and increase the wait times to get
necessary treatments and see specialists (as occurs right now in Canada and the
U.K.). This was never an either-or problem --i.e., either we keep our current
problematic system or we nationalize one-seventh of the economy. It's
rediculous. There were a variety of things -- including interstate competiton --
that would have cost nothing and at least could have been tried before throwing
the baby out with the bath water.

2) The state forces you to have a drivers

license or send your kids to school. Exactly -- the state, not the federal
government. You don't have a federal driver's license, it's your state. You
constitutionally-illiterate persons don't understand Article I, section 8 of the
U.S. Co...
Reply 28 6
DontTreadOnMe  - WE LOST OUR COUNTRY!   |03-23-2010 18:23:01
PLEASE understand what has happened. As of Sunday night, THERE IS NO LAW IN
AMERICA. The sleazy statist socialists DO NOT follow the rules.

We had the
BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH for the majority of my lifetime. Commies took over the
public schools in the 1950s and dumbed down the children, dropping civics and
history (or teaching revisionist history). My mother's generation was WARNED
about commies; they used to have drills in school. The Committee on Unamerican
Acitivities rooted some of these b@st@rds out of Hollyweird, but then
they plastered whiny news stories all over the place about being "falsely
accused." THEY HAVE CONTROLLED MEDIA SINCE WWI. After the Wall came down,
everyone breathed a sigh of relief because "communism is dead." Reagan,
ABC, and CNN said so, so it must be true...

We dropped the ball. We stopped

guarding the gate. Now the enemy within (which "wacko conspiracy
Reply 22 6
Ang W  - What about congress?   |03-23-2010 18:22:29
Isn't ANYONE aware that Congress and President Obama are all EXEMPT from this
healthcare bill?? If it's not good enough for them, then how on EARTH is it good
enough for us law-abiding citizens??? That's what I want to know.
Reply 25 2
Allison  - AGSMom reply   |03-23-2010 18:20:24
I asked this lady did her aunt get her treatments? She said, "no...she
passed away in January."

As far as your statemen by Thomas Jefferson,

"“If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I,
and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It
seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual
exceptions.”" Have you not paid attention during the last eight years
prior to Obama being elected?
Reply 3 11
Allison  - AGSMom reply   |03-23-2010 18:19:17
You can still choose what is best for you. The choice here is for those without
health insurance...those who want it and can't afford itl As far as HC being the
beginning, I have to politely disagree. Bush and Chaney took more freedoms from
us than any other administration. As I said earlier, HC reform helps those who
do not currently have insurance and WANT/NEED it. It will not change want you
personally want or need UNLESS you ask for it. Have you heard the story (yes
these are true) of the 17 year old young man who's insurance company cancelled
him when they discovered he had AIDS? Or the lady with breast cancer...her
insurance company cancelled her policy the day BEFORE her surgery. Just
yesterday I spoke with a lady who said her aunt worked and paid for insurance
until she retired. She found out afterwards she had cancer. The insurance
company would not cover the treatments. I asked this lady did her aunt get her
treat...
Reply 7 24
Wammer  - Too Bad   |03-23-2010 18:16:16
We need Health care reform, but this bill is not reform. All it did was take
away core freedoms for doctors, insurance companies, and consumers. It also gave
the power to the gov't since 1) communism worked swell, and 2) Massachusetts
system also works well 3) Canada's system also works well.
Reform has to fix the
problems not copy medicare

The next step is for a public option which both

Obama and Peloci are fans
Reply 18 4
Allison  - reply to AGSMom   |03-23-2010 18:15:21
You can still choose what is best for you. The choice here is for those without
health insurance...those who want it and can't afford itl As far as HC being the
beginning, I have to politely disagree. Bush and Chaney took more freedoms from
us than any other administration. As I said earlier, HC reform helps those who
do not currently have insurance and WANT/NEED it. It will not change want you
personally want or need UNLESS you ask for it. Have you heard the story (yes
these are true) of the 17 year old young man who's insurance company cancelled
him when they discovered he had AIDS? Or the lady with breast cancer...her
insurance company cancelled her policy the day BEFORE her surgery. Just
yesterday I spoke with a lady who said her aunt worked and paid for insurance
until she retired. She found out afterwards she had cancer. The insurance
company would not cover the treatments. I asked this lady did her aunt get her
treat...
Reply 4 13
Enraged  - Get off your lazy ass!!!!   |03-23-2010 18:11:03
The only people in support of this bill are people that have been abusing the
system in the first place!!!!
Reply 24 7
Ang W  - What about congress?   |03-23-2010 18:08:18
Isn't ANYBODY aware that Congress and President Obama are all exempt from this
new healthcare bill?? Shouldn't that tell everyone something??? If this new
healthcare plan is not good enough for them, then how on EARTH is it supposed to
be good enough for all of us law-abiding citizens???? That's what I wanna know.
Reply 11 4
SEC  - live with it   |03-23-2010 17:52:08
1-Health care is something we can live with and help a lot of people with. 2- It
better than not having any health care. 3-if you not for helping others than you
must be a selfish person and we really don't care what you think.
Reply 4 32
AGSMom  - what freedom is lost?   |03-23-2010 17:39:42
the freedom to choose what is best for yourself and your family is the freedom
you've lost... plain and simple. And HC is only the beginning... with a foot in
the door, the govt. will now be able to decide everything for you because
apparently we all are not capable of deciding these things for ourselves.. silly
us!

“If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I,
and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It
seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions.”
Thomas Jefferson
Reply 18 2
megaman2  - not the same as auto insurance   |03-23-2010 17:38:49
@joDi - Comparing the health care bill to auto insurance is inaccurate.
Auto insurance is only required if you want to drive. You can still opt not to
drive; plenty of people decide to walk, bike, or use public transportation.
Reply 9 3
George Delgado  - The Beggining of the END   |03-23-2010 17:36:26
Wait till he uses his take over of our educational system (student loan program)
to create the army he mentioned during his campaign. I'm sure he will tie it to
loan fmmGGAorgiveness for service time.
Reply 10 4
Kristen  - KB   |03-23-2010 17:29:40
****o?!?! Look at all the money this bill takes from people and companies. The
amount of money it costs is insane. They basically are bankrupting companies.

Also, requiring driving insurance and requiring health insurance are two
totally different matters. A person can make a choice of whether or not they
want to drive. Driving is a privilege, which can be taken away.

The
"right" to health insurance is total BS and goes against what America is
all about. This bill is unconstitutional. I cannot believe they got away with
this. This MANDATE is absolutely insane.
Reply 14 2
Lorione  - The difference   |03-23-2010 17:26:37
I keep hearing the comparison to car insurance. Here is the difference: driving
is a privilege, and buying insurance is part of the price one pays to have that
privilege. Buying health insurance is, what? The price one agrees to pay for the
privilege of merely existing? There is no agreement, tacit or otherwise. This is
the first time US citizens will be forced to purchase a good or service merely
because they exist.
Reply 10 2
pj  - be responsible   |03-23-2010 17:08:59
well, how about if you have a couple hundred thousand in savings you don't have
to buy health insurance...

no one young and healthy thinks they need it, until

they need it ... and don't have it... and then can't pay, then end up in
bankruptcy...

it's either get the insurance or have a single payer system based
on tax contribution alone.

folks fighting so hard to not have insurance on the

claim of 'freedom' are not grasping that there is 'responsibility' that goes
along with freedom.

anybody can end up with a catastrophic illness or

accident or lose a job and then need health care and not have the funds to pay
for it, then have a preexisting condition that won't be covered when you get
re-employed...

we all are at risk.

something needed to be done.

Reply 5 23
joDi  - stop whining   |03-23-2010 17:04:47
No one *****es this much when they live in a state that requires car insurance
and fines you if you choose to not have it.

Also, I work in the research sector

and still support big pharm being charged yearly.
Reply 5 25
markartist  - happy   |03-23-2010 16:56:33
right now if insurance companies were to change their rates based on actual
expenses, it would be about a 1/3 less rates, have you ever seen the ridiculous
hospital charges? Why do you think they charge those rates, insurance wants to
make money from each transaction, not only "covering your expenses.
Also,
less than 5% of this country makes 250k or more income, are you kidding me?
Reply 6 17
Thinh Phan  - Most of American still in day dreaming!!!!...Good   |03-23-2010 16:51:58
I lived with Communist for the past 15 years and I know exactly what Obama up
to. I remember the quote from the South VN President said "Don't believe
what the communist say but look carefully at what they done". "They say
one thing but does the other". They are very good in propaganda. If you
don't wake up now then it's too late when your freedom is taking over.
American
freedom is the last place on earth if you don't protect them.
GOOD LUCK to all
!!!!!!
Reply 28 5
Paul K  - M-TURMAN   |03-23-2010 16:38:40
Your a typical small-minded liberal. Blame Bush for aftermath of Katrina? I
think one would start with the MAYOR OF THE CITY, and then the GOVERNOR???
Your
so small and closed-minded your bias prevents you from an honest debate. Plus
I'm intellectually superior to you.
Reply 21 7
TeaBagger  - Hope-y Change-y   |03-23-2010 16:37:30
Hope-y Change-y
or

Scared-y, hate-y, whine-y, paranoid-y, craze-y,

dumb-y

You make the call

Reply 5 14
Gerald Ford  - My take   |03-23-2010 16:34:16
A GOVERNMENT BIG ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANT IS BIG ENOUGH TO TAKE
EVERYTHING YOU HAVE!
Reply 29 3
Donna   |03-23-2010 16:29:30
this about sums it up...
Reply 3 4
Allison  - lost freedoms?   |03-23-2010 16:28:32
What might those "freedoms" be? I think if you take a "
comprehensive look" you will see no "freedoms" will be lost. Former
President Bush took away some of our basic rights such as Habius Corpus and many
more. This is a HEALTH CARE REFORM issue. It does not cause you to lose any
"freedoms". It might cause corrupt politicians and big insurance
companies some discomfort....oh well....
Reply 13 38
Allison  - lost freedoms?   |03-23-2010 16:27:46
What might those "freedoms" be? I think if you take a "
comprehensive look" you will see no "freedoms" will be lost. Former
President Bush took away some of our basic rights such as Habius Corpus and many
more. This is a HEALTH CARE REFORM issue. It does not cause you to lose any
"freedoms". It might cause corrupt politicians and big insurance
companies some discomfort....oh well....
Reply 5 34
Dana  - Vote   |03-23-2010 16:19:40
I think that all of the American Citizens should have been given a chance to
vote on ObamaCare.

If you live in a community that wants to increase sales

tax to build a new jail, you get to vote, so why weren't we given an opportunity
to vote on this? I believe that they knew that the majority of American
citizens would have rejected it.

There were better ways to reform health care.

Did anyone ever think of tort reform for malpractice suits? malpractice
insurance is why it costs so much to go to the doctor. As his insurance
premiums increase, it is passed on to the patients. Dr.'s are sued everyday for
ungodly amounts of money. It is called a medical practice for a reason.

If the
cost of doctor and hospital visits could be controlled, more people could afford
to go or even buy insurance.

I was an employee benefit specialist and now I am

looking for a career change. I want no part of what will become of this.
Reply 31 5
Donna   |03-23-2010 16:17:52
this pretty much sums it up
Reply 2 4
m. turman  - What?   |03-23-2010 16:15:54
even if this article has valid points to make, there are so many spelling and
grammatical errors that no one could take the author seriously.

another hit
piece from right wing radicals who had nothing to say while Bush ignored OUR
NATIONS needy in the aftermath of Katrina, and oversaw the murder of over ONE
MILLION iraqi citizens during 6 years of occupation.

Hypocrites all of them

Reply 7 42
joseywales   |03-23-2010 16:07:12
A previous commenter quotes the gallup poll indicating that Americans favor this
legislation. All of the polls that I have seen disagree. They are however,
beside the point. This is the point:

We are now living from bond to bond

auction. We are broke and unless we correct our course there will be a fiscal
crises that will make 2008 AND 1929 look like the good old days. If you graph
the data, almost everything that is bad is increasing at a nearly vertical slope
and almost everything that is good is heading in the opposite direction. A
mature and prudent observer would conclude that an incremental approach to
solving the health care problems is the only sustainable course. That is of
course not what we have done. I pray that we find a way to undo it before we go
over the cliff.
Reply 17 4
TeaBagger  - **** gummint'!!   |03-23-2010 16:01:35
Keep those commie, socialist gov't hands OFF MY MEDICARE!!
Reply 16 8
Jeff  - What if it works?   |03-23-2010 16:01:03
Why are people talking about God? This is about health care and politics. Lets
leave God out of it for the moment - if science based health care fails then
turn to God. Why don't we wait a month ... or 2 ... see if it works - and if it
doesn't work then fix it. The present system wasn't working. Remember all the
insurance companies that cost the government billions of $'s to bail out ... and
yet they're still cutting fat bonus' for execs ... And if this bill is so bad
then don't our troops deserve better? Remember - the troops have government
health care - and it's the best in the country. So I say why don't we see, as
average Americans, what military health care fells like.
Reply 6 32
Jeremy   |03-23-2010 15:47:16
Having a majority in the house, a majority in the senate and controlling the
white house is not tyranny. It's how democracy works. People thought George W.
Bush was tyrannical too, but he was elected just the same as Barack Obama.

Not
having your political ideology reflected in the majority of our governing bodies
gives no one the justification for violent upheaval of our government. Instead
of a gun, you should use your ballot in November.
Reply 10 25
Miguel Santiago  - Listen to the people not Gallup   |03-23-2010 15:46:29
Gallup is wrong usually with polling. Just look at last election to see that it
is Rasmussen that is most accurate. Everything in polls depends on where you
ask it and what questions are asked and Gallup is known for their loaded
questions which make you think the wrong things quite often.
Americans are fed
up with Obama, Pelosi, Reid and even the progressives in the Republican party
like Romney and McCain. As Glenn Beck says it is the progressives of both
parties that put us in this position. Which leads me to simply say google that
'2011 Obama's Coup Fails' and you can join the online Tea Party Revolution
against them all.
Reply 19 0
A Patriot mom   |03-23-2010 15:45:48
Hey SK go to http://politics.polls.newsvine.com/_question/2010/
03/21/4048693-the-house-has-passed-an-historic-hea
lth-care-overhaul-are-you-excited-or-angry?GT1=430 01
then tell me again about
those numbers you think are right on!!!!!!!!!! We not only say no we say ****
NO!!!!!!
Reply 5 1
SK   |03-23-2010 15:34:54
"At this point, with overwhelming public disapproval of this
bill..."

But that's not the

case:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/Slim-Marg
in-Americans-Support-Healthcare-Bill-Passage.aspx

49% said passage was a good

thing vs. 40% saying it was bad.

50% were 'enthusiastic' or 'pleased', versus

42% 'disappointed' or 'angry'.
Reply 5 26
Miguel Santiago  - 2011 Obama's Coup Fails   |03-23-2010 15:33:37
I saw a comment below by Jim and googled that link '2011 Obama's Coup Fails.'
People are now openly speaking of revolution as a possibility if Obama
continues. There is a man name Mike Lodee on that page on the top right with a
radio program that bills himself as the Voice of the Resistance. Is this what
is in store for America? My family didn't come here for oppression and
Socialism. We fled socialism and Marxism to become Americans. We all know this
fake Health Care bill is a lie. Is it now time to organize. As that Lodee fellow
said they will not stop. I was listening to Rush today and he is fearful that we
may not have elections soon.
America please wake up faster. This is like a
train coming at us and we are on the tracks and can't move. We see the disaster
of Obama and his administration. We see all of the Marxists being put in power
all over the nation. My God America can't go down like this. Is it time to tell
a...
Reply 24 14
Sue Reese  - Aunt   |03-23-2010 14:46:53
Say you're a college teacher; you've worked and gone to school and you have
earned a BA and a MA and now you're teaching at 3 schools with a total of 175
students, 2 cl***** at each school. You are a single parent, or a parent from a
one income household and your gross monthly income is $2000. No school will
hire you for anything over .5 employment because they don't want to pay for
health insurance, so you and your family have no coverage. One of you beccomes
seriously ill, or it doesn't even have to be that serious, and what do you do?
You might go to the ER, and let those who are insured pay for your visit with
higher premiums and higher medical costs. That's how this has been
"working." And preventative care can work; it's not just for we lard
swilling folks. Perhaps this wouldn't be necessary if employers insured alll
their workers, if voters didn't cut the budgets of state and county medical and
mental...
Reply 7 31
jd  - Self   |03-23-2010 14:42:56
Our government WAS unique in that it protected the rights, freedoms, and
property of the individual. Our system of laws were set up to prevent the
intrusion of person A or group A from infringing and taking from person B or
group B. Within that freedom you could fail or thrive, but someone else was not
going to steal from you...

Now our government decides who is more deserving of

our rights, freedoms, and property and applies that to "make things more
fair". It starts with a progressive tax system, but now includes the theft
of freedom, property, and even corruption of moral conviction by forcing
spending for things that I consider murder...

The flame has just flickered

out on the great light of God given freedom, liberty, and personal
responsibility that once was this great country... Who will stand to light that
flame again? It is not about ourselves or what has been taken away from us, it
is about allow...
Reply 27 6
sage  - Love it!   |03-23-2010 14:34:48
This should be re-named to 20 very cool things about the bill..Thanks this Bill
is awesome. Finally Big Insurance cant take advantage of people with
pre-exisiting conditions. Yay!
Reply 14 43
jef  - Nice one   |03-23-2010 14:18:24
Pharmaceutical companies spend more then twice as much on marketing then they do
on research dip ship.
Reply 12 9
Dave   |03-23-2010 14:08:18
For those saying this is not a government takeover and there is no public
option:

WAKE UP!!!

This bill is ALL about the government regulating and

interferring even more. It is the ground work for a complete takeover.

The
only problem with healthcare in this country is cost. It is a problem because
of MASSIVE government interference that has severaly limited insuance companies
from competing in a true free market.

Naturally the far left Dems in charge

think the answer is more regulation.
Pathetic.

For all the people on the

left who have screamed about the Patriot Act like it actually infringed on your
rights, get a grip. This thing infringes on several aspects of our rights and
freedoms.

It is completely unconstitutional and I, for one, refuse to pay a

thing into it and fight it to the Supreme Court if need be.
Reply 30 8
Aaron Spuler  - Franklin's Quote   |03-23-2010 13:48:37
Funny, I just happened to post Benjamin Franklin's quote on liberty and safety
on my blog yesterday. Going to link to this post as
well...

htp://www.spuler.us/gunsandammo/
Reply 11 1
Hammern Husky  - Constitutional Amendment   |03-23-2010 13:41:32
At this point, with overwhelming public disapproval of this bill and, as of this
morning, 13 state attorney generals preparing to file suit (I think that would
make 30+ states considering legislative action), would a constitutional
amendment be out of the question?

I am certain the wording and intent can be

addressed later, but use something simple as a starting point. Something simple
along the lines of "The federal government will not force an individual (or
private entity) to enter into an agreement with another individual (or private
entity)."

I am not certain that I am in favor of a Constitutional

Convention at this point, but with this legislation be "passed", and
legal challenges being prepared (that the White House seems to think can be
overcome), would this become the only way to prevent (roll back) this
legislation?
Reply 12 2
allen  - mr   |03-23-2010 13:01:07
Docs will leave in droves to set up private practices -- cash only, full price.
Docs can do this as they will be in short supply. They won't take ANY insurance
plans.
Reply 31 1
dcalyn  - I Am Canadian And Not For Socialism   |03-23-2010 12:55:54
For the record this is a Canadian who understands the pit falls of Socialism.
Many of my Countryman DON'T, and won't until they know the difference of having
a business here Stateside and up North. The Government in Canada takes over
half your cheque for taxes. There are so many Fed regulations, that almost make
it impossible to reach any type of major winfall. Why are there more
millionaires in the U.S. then any other place in the World? Because America,
awards (well at one time) awarded hard work. Gave tax breaks, and encourage
entrepreneurial endeavors!

In America now you are going backasswards! You are

going to start doing in Canada what should've NEVER been done here. Rewarding
people who are doing nothing.

Of course you can be happy in Canada, if you

don't want to succeed and pick up your check and live off other peoples
wages...

And thanks to the idiots that voted this thing in, that is exactly
what you...
Reply 50 6
Tater Salad   |03-23-2010 12:50:48
How to help ourselves:

http://www.redstate.com/coldwarrio
r/2010/03/22/the-republican-party-fighting-with-ha
lf-its-brains-tied-behind-its-back/

and here:

http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Reply 4 4
babbo  - US Health Isn't Canada Health   |03-23-2010 12:29:06
Interested Canadian: You might want to brush up on the legalities a little
yourself. You don't seem to recognize that the law Barack Obama signed into law
today bears no resemblance to the Canada Health Act whatsoever. Under this law,
the for-profit corporate s***bags responsible for the rate-hikes and ballooning
costs are being put in charge of everything, and the every member of the
American public will be required to do business with them or face an income tax
penalty? There is no provision of any kind for the public option you, the Brits
and French have.
Reply 8 39
HowSoonWeForget  - 50.8%   |03-23-2010 12:24:45
50.8% told us what to do with our health.

219 / 431 = 50.8%

so they aren't
even a 51% government.

i guess you cant govern with 51%.... you only need

50.8%!
Reply 19 1
Caribou Barbie  - for the "interested canadian"   |03-23-2010 08:57:01
interested canadian i think its grand that all you canucks get "free"
medical care and can choose your job based on its merits and not the
insurance...oh yeah...didn't one of your national leaders recently hop the
border to have major surgery in the united states? hmmmmmmmm....that must have
been because health care in the great white north is so stellar and
expedient....not. face it....you all are on a rationed care system and that
politician knew it. he knew that he would die or face a worsening condition
because he had to "get in line" behind all you other canadians to get
his health care. Need open heart surgery?? No problem! We will schedule it in
three years!! Don't you dare try to criticize us who prefer a free market system
for healthcare and not government rationing. Oh, and btw...we do have a safety
net for the poor...it's called medicaid...run by the government of the united
states.
Reply 27 5
SCS  - Canadian health ins.   |03-23-2010 08:49:36
Yea...your system is sooooo good your own politicians need to come here for the
real deal.
Reply 22 2
Shimmer128  - Oh yes, surrrrrre we're better off.   |03-23-2010 08:47:23
The first comment I read is some ignorant screed by some Canadian sheep that
loves the heavy hand he or she lives under. This person has no concept of
FREEDOM and yet lectures us about our supposed lack of understanding of our
Constitution and constitutional processes! What a joke, he (or she) thinks they
are so elite and enlightened, but are showing gross incompetence and ignorance

Reply 22 3
Don  - Con Law 101   |03-23-2010 08:47:00
Captain Constitution,

here is the text of the commerce clause... " [The

Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among
the several States, and with the Indian tribes"

now...where in there does

it state that the federal government has the power to regulate banking? it
doesn't. it's an implied power taken from that, and the necessary and proper
clause.

all of those supreme court cases just prove my point further that when
the country's national/public interest at stake, the court will most likely give
deference to the Congress to regulate businesses that affect every member of
every state. the fact that the last check on legislation, the supreme court,
has historically upheld social programs to be constitutional totally proves you
wrong.

You post the 10th Amendment as if it is some stand alone do***ent that
needs to be adhered to strictly.

If you were as smart as you think you a...

Reply 3 31
An interested Canadian  - Interesting   |03-23-2010 08:30:30
I love how this is being equated to the stripping of freedom. How about the
freedom to not have to worry about losing insurance? The freedom to work where
you want based on the jobs merits and not its medical compensation plan? The
freedom to choose a doctor, or hospital (as we have in Canada) based on the
doctor or hospitals reputation vs their alliance to an insurer.

Oh my god, it
must be horrible to think that you are paying for those that don't pay enough.
Based on that shallow argument, shouldn't you be ****ed off about paying for the
military which guarantees your security regardless of how much you pay in taxes.
How about fire fighting? My god, that welfare person over there is getting
fire protections services just like me... how very unconstitutional.

It never
ceases to amaze me how little American's know and understand their own
constitution and constitutional processes. The only thing that the constitution
Reply 16 77
Mike  - Goodby Marxists!   |03-23-2010 08:20:35
The Marxists who are posting on this web site don’t care one wit about the
freedoms they have lost over the last 80 years. They think it is better for the
government to control what people do, rather than give freedom to us for us to
make our own decisions about our lives. Facts don’t seem to matter to them at
all. They are typical drones – they don’t think for themselves and blindly
follow the words of their great leader, Obama.

Yes, the Marxist’s

intelligence is tiny, and their brains small, but they are dangerous. Now we
conservatives and libertarians are united in our opposition to the Marxists.
Your days in power are numbered. You will be defeated. You can post garbage here
all you want. There are more freedom loving real American voters then Marxists
like you. You are going down. And if you don’t like it, please just move to
your version of utopia – Cuba. I am sure you will love it there and we will be
glad you are ...
Reply 44 4
TG   |03-23-2010 08:11:51
It really does not matter how good or bad any provision of the bill is. The
reality is we don't have the money for it. Every Government program before this
has exploded far beyond what it was projected to be and this will be no
different.
When the bills come due the Government simply will not have enough
money to pay them because the U.S. will be bankrupt. So in the end no one will
have Health Insurance, because private insurance companies will be out of
business as well. A company can only survive if they make a profit. Basic
Economics 101 !
Reply 32 3
Pro Constitution  - Yes, I know the constitution   |03-23-2010 08:11:35
Don

-The constitutionality of the Social Security Act was settled in a set of

Supreme Court decisions issued in May 1937
-Yes, Medicare falls into a same
grey area, however no litigant has ever challenged it.
-The Supreme court has
ruled on minimum wage, and states have the right to change minimum wage
-Uh,
regulate banking is under the commerce clause
-The Fair Labor Standards Act
1938 was challenged before the Supreme Court

Kind of hipocrital to tell

someone to read a book when you don't seem to be able to.
Reply 5 2
Mike  - Horrible Bill   |03-23-2010 08:00:10
Reagan said it best: "Freedom is never more than one generation away from
extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be
fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will
spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what
it was once like in the United States where men were free."
Reply 44 3
TruthSeekingHoosier  - Healthcare a right?   |03-23-2010 07:57:34
So health care is a right? A right must be paid for by taking from someone
else? What about their right to determine their own destiny?

So what about
food? I can live a lot longer without without going to a doctor than I can
going without food? So it's a right to eat? By all means then let the
government decide what and how much we can eat and make others pay for food too.
Oh yea, they're working on that too!

You people screaming for government

health care are a bunch of whiny, Pablum-puking babies who don't know the first
thing about this country's history and what made it prosperous in the first
place. Yes, there's much that needs correction but this bill will only compound
our problems.
So go ahead and reply on your government-provided computers you
pathetic *****s. The **** is about to burst and you'll drown with the rest of
us.
Reply 33 2
Don  - You know nothing of the Constitution   |03-23-2010 07:43:31
Where in the constitution does it give the federal government the right to set
up social security? medicare? set minimum wage? regulate banking? regulate
pollution? set minimum working ages?

where?

Oh no all these laws are

unconstitutional!!!! AAHHHHHH!! WE HAVE SO MUCH WORK TO DO!!!

Read a book
before you start spouting off at the mouth about what is and what isn't
constitutional.
Reply 8 23
nvrpc  - Stop Socialism Now   |03-23-2010 07:41:53
We now know the names of the first 219 AH's in the Congress to remove
Immediately. It's time to clean the house and senate of all socialist once and
forever. America Gone Stupid

Reply 33 3
Pro Constitution   |03-23-2010 07:38:19
Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

The powers not delegated to

the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

OK, so we know it isn't

constitutional now.

All it will take is one court case and see how long this
democrat **** lasts in court.
Reply 24 3
Anonymous   |03-23-2010 07:36:33
Thought you might like to read this .Bob
Reply 2 0
Anti-Republican  - Get a Job!   |03-23-2010 07:13:30
So, all of you reading this. Do you know who the author is? David Hogberg,
Ph.D., who oversees health care/Social Security programs. Do you think he is
upset about losing his job?
Reply 7 12
Don  - LOLOL   |03-23-2010 05:03:58
"I thought we elected officials to represent the people. Obama
is
frightening...truly frightening. He is a sociopath and has rallied
his
constituents into becoming mouth-frothing, head-nodding sycophants who
are
afraid to defy him. Where did he come from? He had no previous voting
record,
and many wonder who, really, is backing him. He is Jim Jones bringing
the
American public to drink the cyanide-laced drink. Scary. "

Honestly,
read this/your post. Who sounds like a "sociopath"? Who is
"frightening"? Who sounds like they've been rallied into
"mouth-frothing, head-nodding sycophants "?

Take your head out of your

ass. You have been manipulated by the use of fear and misinformation.

How
can you not see this?

The frightening thing going on is the realization how

truly ignorant and narrow minded so many people really are as to get up in arms
and feel hatred/fear towards a president who ...
Reply 17 38
Rick  - Dummies - read the f'ing bill before you get all h   |03-23-2010 04:04:49
A lot of those points are wrong. I know it's fun to get all bent out of shape
about losing your freedoms based on a commentators 20 line summary of a 1000
page bill, but use the brain the lord almighty gave you, think for yourself, and
you might discover the world ain't such a bad place after all
Reply 11 57
Jim M. McDermott   |03-23-2010 03:46:09
Not only is this bill a blatant attempt to destroy freedom, but one major thing
is left out of this article. For 98% of Americans there will be no benefits
until 2014. We are to be taxed immediately or even retroactively from March
robbing us all. Like buying a car and having to make payments for 4 years
because we can't have the car until 2014. Total nonsense and this is the end of
the Democratic Party. They doom America to economic disaster we reserve the
right to remove them from power. Google '2011 Obama's Coup Fails' and see what
I mean. We are on to all of the Marxist **** and America now rises.
Reply 52 7
The Fighting Corpsman  - Obama is Unfit to Lead or Make Laws   |03-23-2010 03:27:02
Politicians can become president. Only leaders can be great in the hearts of
those they are to serve.

The media can love a fraud, but the m***** don't

trust Obama or see any reason to follow him with their hearts.

This man sets

no example of ethical leadership for our children, our men and women serving in
our U.S. Military, law enforcement, CIA or FBI. See 'The Military's Moral
Dilemma'
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie
w&pageId=117857%3C/font%3E%3C/blockquote%3E%3C/fon
t%3E%3C/blockquote%3E%3C/b%3E%3C/i%3E%3C/u%3E

Reply 26 7
Comrade Bob  - The End is near   |03-23-2010 02:58:33
This bill is laughable. Except that it actually passed which is very sad. I'm
hoping it will be repealed and parts (including individual mandates) will be
decalared unconstitutional.

Doesn't really matter - the US and state

governments are bankrupt so this bill and ALL bills that this congress will pass
are meaningless - this nation is going down - and hard.

http://www.europac.net/outlook.asp

It's sad that we have a nation of

people who expect the government to take care of them instead of working to take
care of themselves. We voted for the politicians that allowed this mess to get
where it is so we deserve what we are going to get. Stock up on food (freezed
dried lasts the longest), water collection/purification system, seeds (start a
garden), learn to ride a bicycle, obtain and learn how to safely own and operate
a gun, learn and follow all gun laws or else they'll throw out a murderer to
make a cell for ...
Reply 32 7
spectacula  - ha! keep whining!   |03-23-2010 02:37:27
Anyone here ever see that John Grisham movie with the guy who got denied even
tho he had coverage? That is all your saying goodbye to... Don't act like
couldn't happen to you... America will be a better place because of it, and more
countries will be jealous... Don't You want to be GREAT?
Reply 8 54
Crombie  - Idiots   |03-23-2010 01:55:28
Most of the posts I've just read are written by idiots............you actually
think your about to get hosed when you've been getting rammed the whole
time.......grow up.....none of you know what you're talking
about............everyone who pays for insurance and/or medical care is
overpaying.............the only reason why everyone should have insurance is
because of *****s who don't pay their medical bills. When hospitals and doctors
get stiffed....we all get stiffed. I'm sick of republicans crying about health
care, abortion and whatever else they feel the need to whine about. The deep
problem is government demo or rep I don't care anymore it's all a joke. If you
want to know how to pay for government get rid of politicians..............They
should be here doing my dishes, laundry and misc. chores around the house. D.C.
is the biggest waste of resources ever.
Reply 14 31
****bo slice   |03-23-2010 01:50:33
The health care bill is an abomination that will make insurance unafforable
because of the rules it imposes on insurance companies, which must impact
premiums. I have a better way to pay for it. Tax the $25 billion illegal aliens
wire to Mexico at 20%. Fine the employers of illegal aliens $10,000 per head,
multiply that by 20 million and you are talking some money. That's $205 billion
to start.
Reply 37 5
gully  - Obamacare   |03-23-2010 01:29:29
I do not know what's in the bill. That's the problem I have with it. What about
the cost of Research and Development? How will that be paid under Obamacare? The
numbers are financially impossible to measure up to the fixed numbers provided
by the Democrats. We need a strong look into what's in the bill and not what FOX
News, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC says, they are all in the business of manipulating
the FACTS.
Reply 16 1
longforcali  - Whatever!   |03-23-2010 01:27:27
This whole thing is a thin disguise. Our economy will not support a health
insurance industry on the free market much longer. So, in exchange for the very
few things that are being "given up", a handful of favored insurance
companies will be certain to receive premiums from a forthcoming single-payer
system.

The American people are thrown under the bus again!

Reply 21 4
John McCain  - Friends   |03-23-2010 00:50:47
Hey Friends -

I just want my friends to know that we, as friends, can overturn

this farce of a bill! Let's stand united as friends, together, in unity. We are
friends here, after all friends. I may die next month, and I certainly would
have made a horrible addition to an already declining country of friends, but
dog-gone it friends...we must unite! I'm glad I have so many friends here on
this blog, and I'm glad so many friends here are internet savvy enough to use a
computer to share their feelings. I, myself, have used taxpayer money to train a
monkey to transcribe my thoughts into this box here, friends. I really don't
understand how the internet works, friends...but it's good to really get back
into the public eye. Since I lost the election, I've been really busy with my
monkey here, spamming email accounts with ways to fight and unite as friends!

Republican friends only plz

Reply 10 32
O(pi)nion  - nice censorship   |03-23-2010 00:41:53
the almost comical censorship here reveals the insecurity and lack of spine of
the hosts of this discussion. You guys can say whatever you want but when
someone tries to disagree with some of the nonsense on this board, you cowardly
get your muzzle out. I thought you conservatives were supposed to have a
backbone. By the way, the markets seem to be responding quite well to the health
care bill. interesting.
Reply 8 32
David Hogberg's mom   |03-23-2010 00:26:02
David - why have you censored your mother? the word S-M-U-T was meant to
describe your filthy words on this page!
Reply 3 20
David Hogberg's mom  - DAVID!   |03-23-2010 00:24:55
David - I did not raise you to say/think such sarcastic ****! If you're going to
address people on a public forum, have the decency to do so in a respectable
manner. It's one thing to disagree with the bill that President Osama has set
forth, but it's really rude to use such vulgarity in the way you present your
ideas. Don't make me get your father in here...you know how he gets after he
comes home and has already taken his pants off.
Reply 4 19
Boring Bob   |03-23-2010 00:21:10
I hope that all of the states who say they are going to sue the gov'ment do! I
would rather my taxdollars go towards a lawsuit than to pay for the healthcare
of all the lazy 'mericans out there! they took are jobs!

i'm also for national

ID cards, RFID chips, keeping banks private so that the american currency gets
totally run into the ground, anything that (R) rep Lindsey Graham is for (he's
so smart) and i just love all the hypocritical anti-"liberal" posts set
forth by conservatives on this blog

hi, i'm boring bob. i'm fvcking boring.

everything about my life is a contradiction. i say kick all of the illegal
native 'mericans out of the country! this is our land!
Reply 6 25
Gale  - Caine Mutiny   |03-23-2010 00:16:45
I thought we elected officials to represent the people. Obama is
frightening...truly frightening. He is a sociopath and has rallied his
constituents into becoming mouth-frothing, head-nodding sycophants who are
afraid to defy him. Where did he come from? He had no previous voting record,
and many wonder who, really, is backing him. He is Jim Jones bringing the
American public to drink the cyanide-laced drink. Scary.
Reply 29 9
Fake Boobs  - outraged   |03-23-2010 00:02:20
"If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the
cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better
than the government? Tough"

omg so outraged!! how will i get ankle implants

now!?! i seriously can't afford the 5% tax on this! i mean, i had the money
before, but the 5% tax too?!?! thank god i've already had my boobs, ****, lips,
cheeks, thighs, feet, fingers, shoulder blades, torso, and hair cosmetically
worked on or i'd be in real trouble!
Reply 10 13
matt  - lol   |03-22-2010 23:55:13
sweet blog douche
Reply 2 10
Anton Carr   |03-22-2010 23:48:38
HEY MICHAEL, STOP BEHAVING AS A SAVAGE IGNORANT AND START READING RIGHT
STUFF.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/h
ealth-reform-bill-summary_n_508315.html

HURRAY FOR HEALTH BILL!!!!

Reply 6 35
Mtek   |03-22-2010 23:46:55
I love the fear being used in this article when one line of the

"But it
will result in skyrocketing insurance costs and physicians leaving the field in
droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. "

"14. You
are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that
increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human
Services it will be subject to review and can be denied."

Isn't that a
direct contradiction?
Reply 6 12
joseywales   |03-22-2010 23:42:36
RE: Some other guy - to some guy

What the **** does that mean? It would

appear that the cannabis has beaten your intellect into submission.

These
blogs are the only way for many of us to participate in the dialogue. Too bad
that the discussion can't be on a higher plane.
Reply 4 5
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 23:39:04
OH and to the landscaper crying about his 2 million in sales but nothing in net:
Are you saying that you don't want to insure any of your workers? Are any of
them here legally?
Reply 6 0
Michael R  - This is Great! $750 a year premium!   |03-22-2010 23:37:04
I just figured it out! I'm going to go with the $750 a year plan!

Given I'm a
healthy 47 year old male, and I don't really need a lot of health care at this
point in my life.. I've seen the doctor twice in the last 20 years and they
we're just my 40 and 46 year old check-up... I can refuse insurance, pay my
penalty of $750 per-year and if (IF) I kick over with a heart attack, Obamacare
will kick in and cover me. So I'll be safe and my annual premium is only
$750.

I'll take the "opt-out" plan. :)

P.S. Why did they do this? Why

not just look at the root problems of why Healthcare is so high to begin with?
Why not put limits on Medical Malpractice so the blood sucking lawyers aren't
chasing ambulances? Why have hospitals and doctors have to publish their price
list for services so it's competitive? Why not crack down on illegal aliens
(i.e. undo***ented law breakers) and make them pay for care or send them home
(i....
Reply 37 5
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 23:37:02
Hey Mike, are you REALLY that upset about "the way the bill was pushed
through"? If you are, then you better take a long look at the history of a
lot of our bills...the republicans wrote the book on getting bills pushed
through!
Reply 7 30
Religion Sucks   |03-22-2010 23:34:14
YOU ALL ARE FULL OF IT
Reply 4 20
mike  - Obamacare   |03-22-2010 23:23:45
keep giving it to them Michael !
i am SO angry about how the Pelosi and Obama
threatened, bribed and bullied their fellow Democrats into voting for this bill
!
if this bill was such a good thing, then why did Democrats need to have their
arms twisted to get enough votes to pass it ???
what's next - granting
illegal aliens amnesty ???
Obama is Hitler without the mustache.
Reply 27 6
Some other guy  - to some guy   |03-22-2010 23:15:57
ever see the conservatives commenting on this website??
I have, and they're the
ones that don't want this. Because they choose to comment, I don't believe they
deserve the rights to a computer. There's a new bill you can pass.
Reply 4 26
Anonymous   |03-22-2010 23:11:58
Well Beckel on Hannity is pushing the new DNC talking points "we must come
together and accept this.....its time to cool down.......this is permeant and we
all need to adjust and learn to live under this new system"

This
imply that you are a "danger" and "angry" and
"irrational" if you dont sit down and take your enslavement
silently!

Get used to hearing this line alot!

Now, lets not aid

the Democrats in their campaign to get people to “cool off”….

Obama is going to hit the road in a day so “selling” the “benefits”

of the Govt takeover….

Here are the DNC main themes (all false):

- Its not govt run HC because its not single payer or govt option, its
“private” insurance

- This bill is “no big deal – moderate and

watered down”; go back to watching tv

- This is is a “giveaway to
insurance companies”….
This is all false and co...
Reply 15 6
Gabe Nathans   |03-22-2010 23:11:01
Who needs the government "looking over your shoulder", I think we should
all be free to do whatever the **** we want.

This is what you're saying. *****

laws against murder and theft, they infringe on our freedoms.

Healthcare should
be a god given right, so suck up your selfishness and sacrifice freedoms for
morals.
Reply 6 26
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 22:53:37
Socialism is full govt. control and ownership of industry. If the govt
eliminated the private sector, that would be socialism. Restrictions upon and
heavy regulation of an industry is not. Even if there was a public option, the
bill wouldn't equate to socialism as the private industry would still exist.
And for those throwing "communism" out there...well, all I can say is go
back to 7th grade.
Reply 8 34
Some guy   |03-22-2010 22:53:17
You do realize, Mr. America that she isn't comparing mooching to health care,
she's saying that they now go hand in hand. Ever see the lazy *******s in public
housing? I have. Every day of my life. 95% of them sit on their front stoops,
smoke and drink all day, and have been doing that all their lives. But why
should they stop when they live for free?! They've even interviewed people that
only like Obama because he's giving them free money. They're the ones who want
this, and they're only multiplying...
Reply 27 8
boof  - reading between the GOP lines   |03-22-2010 22:49:17
Im reading what the hardline GOPs are really saying: "Help, a ****** is
ruining the economy"

Reply 5 22
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 22:49:13
Taxed Enough: Your Reaganism/trickle down theory works nice in a blog, but we
all saw over the last few years what really happens when Wall Street goes
unfettered. Even Reagan realized this and raised the taxes he had cut. Trickle
down doesn't work. Historically proven. The tax structure under Clinton, which
we will be returning to, worked out well.
Reply 9 33
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 22:45:41
Chelsea....lol, so you equate mooching off your parents to health care? Apples
and oranges. You still need a job, don't you?
Reply 5 2
Zombee  - Growing government is the real reason   |03-22-2010 22:45:34
Growing government is the real reason Progressives are pushing socialized
medicine. They know perfectly well it doesn't work. They are neither blind nor
stupid. They don't care about your health, or what healthcare costs you now, or
about rationing or low quality care. No arguments about the inadequacy of
government-run healthcare will move them. Socialized Medicine grows government,
and gives it total power over our bodies. They will literally, with the stroke
of a pen, have life and death power over every single person in the country. It
doesn't get more totalitarian than that.I will Continue
Seeking , Opposing
and Challenging Progressive Oppression Wherever It Mestasizes. We May Have Lost
the Battle, But the War Is Just Beginning!
Reply 23 6
Anonymous   |03-22-2010 22:45:32
When republicans go crazy like this you know America is doing something right.
Reply 11 32
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 22:43:53
ScottB: The Whig, Democrat, and Republican parties have all evolved many times
over (or vanished) since the time of Lincoln. The Republican party from the
time of Lincoln is unrecognizable today. Go Wiki the party and read up on it's
history.
Reply 6 5
selfsufficient1  - Had my way too long??   |03-22-2010 22:38:26
If I had my way we would not be in the predicament we are now. Life in prison
would just be the death sentence. Drugs would be legalized and the large amounts
of money could be taxed. Gangs would not be selling them and would not need to
fight for territory. Prostitution would be legal and the ****s would not be able
to use 12 year olds. Marriage would be a religious ceremony only and civil
unions would be the only thing recognized by government. (Seperation of church
and state should already make this so) Illegal immigration would be treated as
just that, Illegal and be prosecuted. I have not had my way and will sadly
probably never get it.
Reply 20 6
That kid over there...   |03-22-2010 22:35:57
Ever read 1984? If not, you probably should. Eric Arthur Blair (George Orwell)
was a genius about this stuff. The American society has a great many issues to
overcome. The Health Care Bill passing? What a mistake for us to let that go by.
It is the first step into socialism, then finally communism. Now the textbook
definition of Communism, doesn't exist. All men are created equal, sure, but
they sure as **** don't make it out equal. Society is split and for society to
remain stable, it must always be split. This **** that the Left wing Liberals
have been passing and all the debt that's being built up and the overall
reliance on the government has gone up exponentially. And myself and my
children, and their children, and maybe even their children's children will be
paying for this. It disgusts me.
Reply 21 6
joseywales   |03-22-2010 22:25:20
Continuing

Until they realized that speaking honestly would hinder passage of

the legislation, the proponents of this approach to "health care" reform
were stating openly that this is a trojan horse that will eventually lead to a
single payer system. Single payer cannot control costs any other way.

Real
health care reform would have relied on a market based approach to increase
competition. It would have lead to more control over health spending by the
consumer of the services.
Reply 10 3
joseywales   |03-22-2010 22:23:23
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger - WRONG AGAIN

Actually Adam, I've read Rules

for Radicals. Once upon a time, I too was a leftist. But then, (after far too
many years in an academic environment) I entered the real world and I had enough
intellectual integrity and enough courage to change my views. Nothing focuses
the mind like having to make a payroll.

The math on this is relentless. As

of today, all of the insurance companies are public utilities and probably will
not survive. Stripped of any other method of cost control, rationing will have
to be used to contain spending. This rationing will be directed at those who
use the most care, the elderly and the chronically ill.

Until they realized

that speaking honestly would hinder passage of the legislation, the proponents
of this approach to "health care" reform were stating openly that this
is a trojan horse that will eventually lead to a single payer syste...
Reply 12 6
Anonymous   |03-22-2010 22:45:28
ugh Canada, Saskatchewan, has a more stable economy then any place in the
world...
Reply 5 9
Aris   |03-22-2010 22:14:48
I love how clueless most people are...your rights were most infringed on the day
the Patriot Act was passed...that is where your quote of Benjamin Franklin would
have fit better...comparing provision of healthcare to the actual removal of
people right to privacy...you my friend David, are a complete and utter
nincompoop
Reply 10 21
Hey Libs  - CBO estimates   |03-22-2010 22:14:44
The estimates for Medicare turned out to be 9X lower than actual costs.....gee I
wonder what the actual cost of this will be? But we will get much worse care, so
thats good. Hey libs, who will be paying for this monster? I am a small biz
owner who will be laying people off because of this bill. Also- can one of you
libs give me an example of socialism working in the long run?
Reply 20 8
Chelsea  - Don't want to be a Slacker(anymore)   |03-22-2010 22:10:12
I'm 20 yrs. old, currently living at home with my 2yr. old son. My health
coverage under my parents ends at 22. I feel keeping it at this age gives me
motivation to get a job by the time I'm at least 21. If this does pass, why
would I want to start working? I could continue staying at home till 26, then
move out and still have coverage. This idea is NOT what I want to do!!
Reply 6 10
yonason  - @Don "- LOL@Scott B"   |03-22-2010 22:03:21
"Scotty Boy, are you seriously claiming Abraham Lincoln as if he were a
neo-con modern day republican?"

Lincoln would make the toughest modern

neo-con look like a moderate Democrat by comparison, at best.
Reply 3 4
Jeff  - Benefits   |03-22-2010 21:56:47
Every job I have ever had referred to health insurance as a benefit and not a
right.
Reply 16 4
selfsufficient1  - What is so great??   |03-22-2010 21:49:19
What is so great about social security? I can invest my money and get a bigger
return than our government. I am sorry but I am not a bleeding heart. If you
can't afford something you shouldn't have it. Health insurance/health care
included. I have had some sort of job since I was 11years old. My house is paid
for, built with my own two hands. I am raising 5 children, aged between 7 and
19. I don't have a car payment and have money saved if something terrible should
happen. I did not get any of this given to me but am very afraid it will get
taken away. At 39 I have a long life ahead of me to fight to keep what is mine.
Reply 26 5
Don  - LOL@Scott B   |03-22-2010 21:42:53
Scotty Boy, are you seriously claiming Abraham Lincoln as if he were a neo-con
modern day republican?
Reply 2 2
ScottB  - Adam, how could you be so wrong?   |03-22-2010 21:39:13
Someone's been boning up on their DNC talking points. Unfortunatly, for you....
your view runs counter to history...

April 16, 1862

President Lincoln signs
bill abolishing slavery in District of Columbia; in Congress, 99% of Republicans
vote yes, 83% of Democrats vote no.

July 17, 1862

Over unanimous Democrat
opposition, Republican Congress p***** Confiscation Act stating that slaves of
the Confederacy “shall be forever free”

January 31, 1865

13th Amendment
banning slavery passed by U.S. House with unanimous Republican support, intense
Democrat opposition

April 8, 1865
13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S.
Senate with 100% Republican support, 63% Democrat opposition

November 22,
1865
Republicans denounce Democrat legislature of Mississippi for enacting
“black codes,” which institutionalized racial discrimination

April 9,
1866
Republican Congress overrides Democrat President Johnson’s veto; Civil
Rights Act of...
Reply 15 4
Jeff  - Lincoln   |03-22-2010 21:35:59
Someone mentioned Lincoln below. The following are the 10 Cannots from Lincoln.
After reading see how far we have moved from these principles.

1. You cannot
bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2. You cannot strengthen the
weak by weakening the strong.
3. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling
down the wage payer.
4. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by
encouraging class hatred.
5. You cannot help the poor by destroying the
rich.
6. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
7. You cannot
build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and
incentive.
8. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your
income.
9. You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
10. You cannot
help men permanently by doing for them what they should do for themselves.
Reply 31 3
Don  - Cant' find it??   |03-22-2010 21:25:55
No, you can't find it. Because it isn't in there. Yet you sit here and bash
the bill on that premise and how bad that'd be fore you, but as usual its more
hot air and a talking point where u think you're sounding at all
intelligent.

You have no idea what this bill means for this country. You read
nonsense articles like this that are written with a severe bias rather than look
at real information and facts and then draw your own rational
inferences.

they're shoveling you ******** and you're sitting there with your
mouth open wide waiting for the next shovel full.

If you're going to talk with

so much anger and hatred and self-righteousness at least base it on some fact
and knowledge, as opposed to how something looks on the surfaces and political
talking points.
Reply 9 20
Don  - correction..   |03-22-2010 21:15:58
50+
Reply 3 0
Don  - What are you babbling about?   |03-22-2010 21:14:17
Can you point me to specific text where it is saying $500k business
payrolls?

All I'm seeing is all businesses with under 50 emplloyees aren't

affected, and the language in section 1513 only applies to large businesses with
101+ employees

where are you getting this?

Reply 5 4
Conservative  - conservative   |03-22-2010 21:13:35
America its not a rally cry. I truly see this every day I go to work. I wish I
could honestly say that a majority of people dont abuse the system but its true.
I actually hate being forced to give my money to anyone. I work hard for it
just like you and we should be able to keep more of it.

Oh well like the

saying goes there are only 2 things that are certain.....death and taxes
Reply 13 2
conservative  - conservative   |03-22-2010 21:07:35
LMAO first off I do not listen to Glenn Beck.. I do listen to Michael Savage who
pretty much hates all politicians.

You neglected to say Hitler hated all

liberal democrats, which is a plus for him at least he got one thing right. I
was actually using him as an example of Govt control of all businesses, people,
healthcare, banking etc. Maybe I should have just said Socialists and you would
have not gotten so worked up.

Again with the name calling. I guess you

cant have a conversation with a liberal without name calling. Why so bitter?

Next I am not a "tea bagger" as you so stated. Why is it that

people who disagree with King Obama and Princess Pelosi are labeled as such? I
believe our Govt wastes entirely too much money and this will go along with it.
Just look at Mass. and how their health care has been a disaster. Look at
England, Canada and other countries who have Govt run healthcare. I have
Reply 24 3
TaxedEnoughAlready  - MrAmerica.   |03-22-2010 21:04:46
I don't make $500k and I live in a state with high taxes, for now... I do
believe that the government doesn't "produce" anything with our monies
as does the private sector... That person making that $500k doesn't just sit on
it, they spend it which in the end creates jobs. I don't begrudge anyone making
$500k, $1m or more. If a CEO can get a billion for his services, God bless him.
He is going to buy stuff which, again, creates jobs for me, my family and my
friends... But thats the difference between a conservative and a liberal.
Government is not the answer...
Reply 22 2
Dr. E  - Physician   |03-22-2010 21:04:12
My practice will no longer accept anything but CASH.
Reply 19 4
Don  - Did you really just compare this to Poland's healt   |03-22-2010 21:01:15
So you believe that this is going to make our system like the system in Poland
why? Because your Polish friend who needs eye surgery told it would?

LOL @
You people.
Reply 5 6
Jeremy J.  - Really???   |03-22-2010 21:00:12
Are you serious that $500,000 is a huge payroll? I own a small landscape
business with sales under 2 million. My payroll last year was $547,300. After
taxes, payroll, overhead, FICA, Unemployment insurance, employee benefits, etc.
My company made just under $50,000 in profit last year (half of which was
reinvested into the company!) I am lean and hanging by a thread... Why should I
be taxed at a higher rate? Shove your **** communist philosophies and quit
trying to destroy the fabric of America!
Reply 31 5
joseywales   |03-22-2010 20:59:42
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger - WRONG AGAIN

Why don't you try to frame your

argument using something like - I don't know- an agrument. According to your
posts tonight, everyone that believes in individual liberty and individual
responsibility is an illiterate bozo. Have you ever worked in the real world?
Do you ever step outside of you echo chamber? Have you ever heard of Hayek or
Friedman? There is another side to the argument. It is probably easier to just
call you opponent names.
Reply 6 2
Don  - Glenn   |03-22-2010 20:57:03
"Wasn't he the guy who took a personal delight in the murder of several
thousand
Cubans?"

Do yourself a favor and read something. Make your first

voyage into the world of literature be a book about Che Geuvara. It'll be an
eye opener I'm sure.

It's amazing how many different topics you people on this

page who hate on the health care bill have been completely wrong about in the
past couple hours.

no stone of ignorance goes unturned with you clowns.

Reply 4 15
rOB HERPST  - WHAT DONT U UNDERSTAND ABOUT FREEDOM   |03-22-2010 20:56:43
SEEMS LIKE MOST READERS JUST DONT UNDDERSTAND THE MEANING OF FREEDOM. I
RECEIVED AN EMAIL FROM AN OLD FRIEND IN POLAND TODAY WELCOMNG ME TO THE POLISH
MEDICAL SYSTEM. HE NEEEDS EYE SURGURY BUT WILL HAVE IT DONE PRIVATE BECAUSE TO
DO IT THRU STATE RUN EALTH CARE WILL TAKE YEARS, WILL DRIVE HIM CRAZY AND WILL
OCCUPY TOO MUCH EFFORT THAT HE COULD EXPEND ON DOING SOMETHING EITHER PRODUCTIVE
OR ENJOYABLE. THERE IS SAYING IN POLAND GTHAT THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH STATE
RUN HEALTH CARE IS THAT THEY DONT POST THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF BRIBE THAT
MUST BE PAID IN ORDER TO OBTAIN SERVICE. WELCOME AMERICA TO AWFUL HEALTHCARE
WITH ALL THE HIGH LEVELS OF SERVICE YOU HAVE COME TO EXPECT FROM YOUR LOCAL
MOTOR VEHICLE AND TAX BUREAUCRATS.
Reply 9 2
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 20:56:29
A. None of you will have any of your taxes go up. You don't make 500,000, nor
own a small business that has a 500,000 payroll. None of you are a doctor that
wants to open a hospital either. (which would cost around 2 billion if you did
by the way.) B. If you have health insurance with your job keep it, none of this
affects you at all. C. If you have health insurance that you pay for out of
pocket (raise your hands...bueller?) you will now be paying for an
"improved" product. (meaning you are less likley to get *****ed.) D. If
you are worried about govt spending out of control, where were you 8 years ago?
Bueller?
Reply 6 25
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 20:54:52
Conservative: the "lazy person" straw man is the rallying cry for you
folks who are against welfare, food stamps etc. I work and make about 90k a
year, and pay a LOAD of taxes. So NO, I don't like it one bit myself, however I
look at the bigger picture. The lesser of two evils. I don't think that there
are swarms of lazy people out there trying to take advantage of the system,
rather there are some lazy people in a system of people that actually need help.
Also, we pay far more in CORPORTA WELFARE than we do foodstamps. I like giving
money to Wall Street even less than I do welfare moms.
Reply 5 15
Josh  - This is just Sad...   |03-22-2010 20:54:46
that I, a fifteen year old male have a better idea of what this bill REALLY IS
than about 75..no 85% of the american population. It's SOOO OBVIOUS!!!congress
originally denied this vote but(for some reason) people were bribed into this.
and the do***ent itself is like 1000 pages.Yea change happened alright, to morph
into communist Russia
Reply 13 5
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger  - WRONG AGAIN   |03-22-2010 20:45:47
"Conservative - conservative"

"Hitler and socialism go hand in

hand."

Once again, the low-wattage mind of the teabagger can't tell fish
from fowl.

Listen very closely, Cletus. Socialism Is Not Fascism. Germany's

"National Socialism" was as socialist as the Democratic Republic of
North Korea is Democratic. That is: NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST!

Hitler was a
Fascist. Put down that misspelled sign for a second and say it with me:
"fass-schist". Fascists are NOT socialists. They are ideological
OPPOSITES. Fascists HATE socialists or communists. Fascists round them up and
have them KILLED. That's the first thing Hitler ACTUALLY DID in the 30s: killed
all of Germany's leftists - socialists, communists, labor unionists.

YOU'RE
WELCOME for the education, YOU RIDICULOUS BOOB.

Perhaps you might take it upon

yourself to complete the correction. Read a book or ten. Turn off Glenn Beck.

Unt...
Reply 4 36
conservative  - conservative   |03-22-2010 20:45:08
Mr America do you agree that our tax dollars should support someone too lazy to
get off their **** and get a job. In my profession I see people like that every
day. The man with 5 kids by different mommas, the female who knows she can have
4 kids before the govt will not give her any more free money. These people tell
me that why should they work when they get money for doing nothing. We empower
people to be dependent on the govt and this adds to it. I dont mind helping the
single mom who tries to be proactive and help herself, but I despise my tax
dollars go to lazy individuals whose biggest decision of the day is when to get
out of bed!
Reply 12 4
Glenn  - Che Guevara?   |03-22-2010 20:44:04
Wasn't he the guy who took a personal delight in the murder of several thousand
Cubans?
Reply 9 0
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 20:42:43
I did do the math. A 500,000 payroll is steep. Which is the same number for
the threshhold of those whos taxes will go up to 39 from 36. (A reversal of W's
cut, back up to Clinton's rate.) Businesses and individuals at that cutoff will
be just fine. Why do you call yourself "Taxed Enough Already"? I doubt
you make more than 500,000.
Reply 2 5
Mr. America   |03-22-2010 20:38:56
I am very open for intelligent debate, however the name calling is a wate of
time. Including the misused word "socialist." The same misuse of the
word was made when social security, medicade, and medicare were passed.
Reply 5 9
TaxedEnoughAlready  - MrAmerica   |03-22-2010 20:37:16
Try doing the math. 10 empolyees at $50,000 each equals what? There are a whole
lot of small businesses our there with PAYROLLS gt a half of a million
dollars...
Reply 8 2
Don  - LOL   |03-22-2010 20:35:29
Who here claimed Lincoln was a member of the present day republican party?

LOL.
Where do you people come from?
And hitler and socialism go hand in hand?
Seriously, where on earth do you people come up with this stuff?

Obama isn't a
socialist. Accept that, deal with it. It would be so much easier for you all
to label him as such. The point is this country has gotten to a point where the
government needs to step in. Similar to the way the government stepped in after
the Great Depression. Deal with it. We are at the bottom of the wave, and
things need to be done.

You're liberties aren't being infringed upon. If you

want to talk about infringing on rights why don't you google USAPATRIOT Act or
any of the acts passed after 9/11 which allowed the executive to jail basically
anyone he pleased without a trial or judicial review.
Reply 9 31
Ronald  - 20 ways   |03-22-2010 20:34:15
fyi
Reply 0 0
Mr America   |03-22-2010 20:31:52
This whole article is similar to complaiing that you will no longer be able to
buy a car who's wheels might fall of after 75,000 miles. And 9. is false...it's
500,000 payroll, not 100 on payroll. And the rest is all "you are a mega
billion dollar pharma company, boo hoo." *****...******** is off the charts!
It even attacks if hospitals want to expand (as if hospitals are privately owned
by your neighbor) and that they must be in a growth area...this is nothing
new...the govt never subsidised hospitals that are in expanding in non-growth
areas. The author of this BS forgets that hospitals get govt money and are thus
subjected to govt regulations. Pathetic! I will give him the 5% extra tax on
plastic surgery...so ladies your $5,000 implants will now cost $5250. OH NO! OUR
FREEEEDOMS!!!
Reply 7 17
Mr America   |03-22-2010 20:29:32
The small business provision is only for businesses with a PAYROLL of half a
million or more. Umm...unless you dad is Bill Gates, there are no "start up
business" that starts up with that kind of scratch. And as far as "what
if you don't want health insurance" well, show me a poll of people that
don't want it if they can afford it.
Reply 3 8
Mr America  - Lincoln?   |03-22-2010 20:28:44
Dude, Lincoln DID free the slaves, but to compare him to modern day republicans
is just silly. Read up on the REAL party of Lincoln.
Reply 3 5
Conservative   |03-22-2010 20:26:44
sorry there should be a u on you....
Reply 2 2
Conservative  - conservative   |03-22-2010 20:25:44
Adam why the name calling? Hitler and socialism kinda go hand in hand. Read
this stuff and you will see how Obama is following the Marxism rule book. How
can yo have a choice when the fed govt is going to fine you for exercising your
right not to have insurance. So Adam the fact you are name calling shows a lack
of intelect. Its a place to vent and you get offended. Also you need to add an
"er" to make the word drawer. If you dont agree thats fine but have an
intelligible discussion.
Reply 11 5
some people can't read or what  - didn't any of the libs read the items listed?   |03-22-2010 20:22:13
These items came directly out of the bill that was past by the Democrats,do you
see what you are supporting and standing up for? Do you comprehend the freedoms
and losses you will incur or else be fined,etc.?? You people are out of your
minds if you still want to ignore the facts and what is REALLY in the bill
already!! Or you just don't care because you are so desperate you'll take what
you can get even if you give up freedoms and quality of care!
Reply 8 2
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger  - Wrong AGAIN   |03-22-2010 20:22:00
joseywales:

No, see, I argued my point beautifully. I provided five of the

last 25 or so times that progressives were 100% right and conservatives were
100% wrong on national policy. Your response was lame: First you lied that
Republicans liked Social Securoty, then you repeated the name "Alinsky"
as if 1) you knew who he was 2) he wasn't a better American than you.

Alinsky
was the quintessential American: he wanted everybody to have a shot in this
society. You people, on the other hand, are a load of self-absorbed MOUTHS who
happily do the bidding only of the rich and powerful. You are SAD excuses for
what a life in this country is supposed to be.
And now, you may SIT DOWN AND
SHUT UP ALREADY, because once again we have overcome your MONUMENTAL WRONGNESS
ABOUT EVERYTHING.
Reply 5 25
Don m  - To Mark:   |03-22-2010 20:20:58
Defending our country is not a business?

What do you do for a living? Wouldn't

you do anything you can to boost business? No? Not anything? Yea, I wouldn't
either.

But our country doesn't work that way. We have been getting into
conflicts and wars in the name of big business since day one. War is a
business. "Defense" is a business. If you don't see this you're blind.
Step away from the herd and take a look at what is actually going on.

How'd
we get out of the great depression? War.

How'd our economy thrive from Vietnam

until the early 1990's? (Cold) War.

Patriotism is just a crock of **** made up

to get the morons to beat on the war drums to make corporations billions of
dollars by going over seas and murdering people.
Reply 6 15
Don m  - LOL@STEPHEN   |03-22-2010 20:13:19
This is why the founding fathers included the second amendment?

because of
health care regulation? LOL. get a clue. this is regulation, not government
taking over the private sector.

as for why not allowing the private sector to

handle this problem....are you serious? can you be that blind? the private
sector is going to minimize its profits and rework the system in the name of
social welfare? No. The private sector is motivated by 1 thing. Money. End
of story.

I still can't believe that clown wrote that this is why the founding
fathers included the second amendment. As if your small arsenal and militias in
the south have any chance against the american military and precision missles
and incredible ground force. get real. the second amendment is outdated and a
"well armed" citizenry is no match for any army on this planet, let
alone the army of the strongest.

ignorance, in this case, isn't bliss. you

Reply 2 15
joseywales   |03-22-2010 20:12:29
RE: Adam Smith's Invisible Finger - Conservatives: Not The Sharpest Knives In
The Draw

I'm not holding any signs and I'm not equating anyone with Hitler.
Conservatives don't usually use Alinskyite tactics, even if some yahoos at the
Tea Party rallies were spotted with them. (I give even money that most of them
were plants from ACORN or SEIU).

There are two things that you apparently

can't do.

1. Argue your point.

2. Maintin civility

Do the **** math.

Reply 14 2
n8_  - Freedom is dead   |03-22-2010 20:08:29
Your notions of freedom are amusing. Be hereby informed that, as an American,
you have very few freedoms left, but take comfort in the fact that you have more
than most.

Also know that whining on a message board will a) cause no action,

and b) that is all, now go watch TV you fxcking sheep.

~the management
Reply 4 4
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger  - The ugly truth   |03-22-2010 20:02:26
"Political discourse is not possible when a burning torch is thrust into
your
face."

Says the guy holding a sign equating Hitler with health

insurance reform.

Listen closely, please:

You have NO CREDIBILITY. Your

mindless fears have been WRONG EVERY SINGLE TIME. You are gullible,
self-absorbed WHINERS who make the whole country a WORSE AND UGLIER PLACE. SIT
DOWN and SHUT UP ALREADY you pathetic excuses for AMERICANS.
Reply 5 25
FireEagle  - Health care   |03-22-2010 20:02:06
There are 12 million uninsured in this country. We could have paid for their
health insurance with stimulus dollars and had money leftover.. Why do you have
to f@#% with the other 300 million that like their health care!! This will
end up with less service for alot more money and still have people not with
Health care. The Demos even said this would not cover everyone.
Reply 23 3
joseywales   |03-22-2010 19:57:41
my previous comment was directed to:

Adam Smith's Invisible Finger -

Conservatives: Not The Sharpest Knives In The Draw
Reply 2 5
joseywales   |03-22-2010 19:52:49
For future reference:

1. Social Security is bankrupt and will drag us over

the cliff if we don't do something about it.

2. Civil Rights legislation

would not have happened without the republicans in congress.

3. A republican
president waged a war to end slavery.

4. I'm married so I know better that to

comment about women voting.

5. Is is possible for you people to have a

reasoned argument about your position without calling the other side names.
Political discourse is not possible when a burning torch is thrust into your
face.
Reply 22 4
wheninthecourse  - I Pray for   |03-22-2010 19:49:38
I pray for obamas death and pelosis death
Reply 10 28
Dan  - Question   |03-22-2010 19:49:05
Why are we trying to following how other countries do there healthcare?? So our
cost of healthcare is expensive, I get it. How about we make it less expensive
and leave the government out of it. Private businesses should be the driving
force behind healthcare overhual, not the government. Government should support
private businesses and then get out of the way. Remember a dictatorship can come
in many forms...in our case it's our government. Spreading the wealth will never
work in this world, there will always be someone with more power and more money
than you. Stop being jealous of other people and be content with the life you
have.

By the way, anyone have the phone number for the government? I need
more toilet paper...I hope they send an agent out now to show me how to use
it...
Reply 15 2
Cletus D. Spuckler  - Mr.   |03-22-2010 19:44:53
Sorry Che. I meant to say 150 trillion. I beg your pardon.
Reply 4 0
Cletus D. Spuckler  - Mr.   |03-22-2010 19:43:39
Hey Che,

What is an adequate number of dollars to spend on social welfare? The

hole (prior to last night's legislation) is roughly 150 billion in both real and
projected debt. How much further do we need to go. I need to know, so that I
can be relieved when we finally reach it.
Thanks and be well.

Warmly,
Cletus
Reply 9 3
JB  - Che and Friends   |03-22-2010 19:43:18
Hey Che and Friends,
Please name me 1 country where socialized medicine has
worked without rationing care? Why is Massachusets bankrupt...form their state
run helathcare system Why is Tennesse's healthcare system started this year to
ration their state run healthcare Because it's UNSUSTAINABLE!! Go back to CUBA
YOU MORON!! You love socialism so much...go for it and get the **** out of
here!!
Reply 21 6
Concerned American  - The start of the End of the USA   |03-22-2010 19:43:16
I am 71 years old and I never thought I would see this day in the USA.

GOD
Help us all, and I hope GOD through ***** forgives us for our Ignorance.
Reply 21 6
Adam Smith's Invisible Finger  - Conservatives: Not The Sharpest Knives In The Draw   |03-22-2010 19:42:53
When Social Security was passed, Republicans called it "The whip of the
dictator".

When civil rights legislation was passed, Republicans called it

"federal overreach".

When women got the right to vote, conservatives

said "the human race would die out".

When slavery was abolished,

conservatives cried about "the preservation of white society".

For 11
hours yesterday, Republican after Republican called sending 32 million private
customers to health insurance companies "a government takeover of
healthcare".

I have only one question:

Don't you illiterate teabagger

clowns ever get tired of being on the WRONG side of history EVERY SINGLE TIME?
You have ZERO CREDIBILITY!

SHUT UP ALREADY.
Reply 10 36
Chris   |03-22-2010 19:41:44
RE: the o(pi)nion - terrified!

Here is the bottom line for you. We

currently have unfunded obligations (net present value) for existing entitlement
programs of approximatly $100 trillion. We will never be able to pay such a sum
unless we significantly inflate our currency or have economic growth that is far
outside the bounds of what is expected. The last time we were in such debt, the
baby boom generation and dramatic technological innovation created the economic
growth that swallowed the debt. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if this
growth doesn't occur again it will be a disaster for all of us. There are many
things that we could do to lower the costs of health care without blowing up the
fisc. This bill wasn't one of them. The scary thing though is that the only
law that works 100% of the time is the law of unintended consequences. These
are almost never in a good direction.
Reply 12 2
Ann NY  - To Someone   |03-22-2010 19:32:41
Wow, that's some argument you present. I'll address each issue to help you out
a bit.

1) Military (look at blackwater/Xe)

Blackwater didn't do the

military's job. It is a private contractor security firm not a military
organization. They did not fight the war.

2) Roads/infrastructure
(the private
toll roads in my state are a joke, the airline industry is
horrible, amtrak?
pfft)

You think amtrak is a private company???? Really? Is that what they're

teaching in schools these days? I'm not sure what experiences you have had on
airlines, but I love to fly and haven't had a problem yet. Given thousands of
flights every day its pretty amazing how efficient they are (I guess Aeroflot
during the Soviet heyday is an example of what you would prefer?)
I think the
private toll roads in CA and FL are really nice.

3) FDA/CDC/NIH? Look at the

Vioxx ***** up.

I'm not even sure what you mean by that. The FDA approved
Vioxx;...
Reply 13 2
the o(pi)nion  - terrified!   |03-22-2010 19:11:49
Dear Obamacare Haters,

We know you're sad, bitter, angry. Those of us on the

other side feel your pain. But rather than just spouting off at the mouth, we
suggest this: Wait and see what happens. What a concept. We know you
conservatives are terrified of innovation except when it boosts the bottom line.
You're not afraid of wasting money on R&D for a new product. No, no. That's
called an investment. But give a liberal a social program that tries to help the
less fortunate (translation: "lazy carpetbaggers") and said liberal
(translation: "the Anti******") is crucified the minute a dime is
wasted.

Sincerely,
Che Guevara and Friends
Reply 11 39
Mark  - TO SOMEONE ??   |03-22-2010 19:00:16
Are you serious? Not gonna waste too much time on your response.

#1 Delivering
Health Care is a Business. Defending the country is NOT. So go back and read
your comments and realize yes that they are the one's full of holes. ;)

The
main responsibility for the govt. is protecting the country. That means
militarily, infrastructure used by all (safe roads, bridges and tunnels, and
safety (proper testing of drugs, chemicals, etc.)....Even on the drugs though,
there are issues, primarily because of lobbying.

Your doctor and hospitals are

businesses. The military is not a business. The local police are not a business.
2 + 2 = 4 ..... Unless it's the government trying to run a BUSINESS that it has
no BUSINESS running. Then 2 + 2 = 4 becomes 2 + 2 x 5

So go back, and get off

the liberal Blackwater wah, wah, wah and focus on the question in terms of the
topic: health care. It's a business. And the government by nature is not
Reply 18 2
Chris   |03-22-2010 18:59:54
RE: S. - security vs. medical care

My point was that the cost of this new

entitlement will force us to make choices. Tax revenues are limited and have
been growing at a rate substantially less than the growth in health care costs.
If the federal government is on the hook for all costs associated with health
care then other spending will have to be cut or unsustainable deficits will be
incurred. Defense is one the largest categories in the budget and it is always
where the left looks for spending cuts. Europe was able to cut defense spending
because someone else was picking up the tab. We do not have that luxury.
Reply 12 0
Max  - force Congress & Unions to take it   |03-22-2010 18:48:48
If it's so great, why isn't pelosi and her union hacks ****oring to get onboard?

Put all these people on obama care-***** their cadillac coverages-they

supported it, let them live with it-hypocrites.
Reply 16 2
Really Red  - Nothing Good Long Term   |03-22-2010 18:38:49
If we deserve the government we elect, there are a lot of deserving idiots in
America today. I'm sorry I have to be lumped in with them. REMEMBER IN
NOVEMBER. If we don't fix the deficit America will certainly be
"transformed." I want as little government involvement in my life as
possible.
Reply 17 0
Someone  - Yay thinking   |03-22-2010 18:36:00
To Mark -- commonsense thinker

You want a list of things run better than a

private company?

1) Military (look at blackwater/Xe)

2) Roads/infrastructure
(the private toll roads in my state are a joke, the airline industry is
horrible, amtrak? pfft)
3) FDA/CDC/NIH? Look at the Vioxx ***** up.
4)
Anti-trust
5) Law enforcement (yup, because blackwater is doing such a GREAT job
in Iraq)
6) Net neutrality/FCC (because we really should make the internet free
market, because my whole single broadband ISP I have access to wouldn't prevent
me from accessing networks it'd have to swap bandwidth with or pay for me to
access?
7) Tax collecting? Personally, I think the best people to collect taxes
should be the collection agencies. Wouldn't that be great!

I could go on.
But I r liberal and my 30 iq points only lets me see 7 things laughably wrong
with your statement.
Reply 9 17
RJ Ceyba  - American Citizen   |03-22-2010 18:31:15
The economic collapse is intended to force citizens into government compliance,
albeit control. Government imposed regulations regarding Health Care is
tantamount to government control.
Read, "Manufacturing Consent", Noam
Chomsky and J. Hartmann, 188, revised 2002. The introduction will enlighten
skeptics on what is happening in America. Wake up and vote socialists out.
Reply 21 2
Mark  - Common Sense Thinker   |03-22-2010 18:25:44
The simplest question asked is this:

"Name one program the government has

ever run more efficiently and effectively than even a moderately well run
private company?"

........crickets chirping, crickets chirping........

I
actually asked this of Congressman Chris Van Hollen (you may have seen him with
a leash around his neck over the past year, with Nancy Pelosi holding it), and
the lackey in his office actually said, "How about Social Security?"

I
said, "Do you reconsider that response?"

Look at the numbers for Cash

for Clunkers. Correct me anyone, but roughly I believe to deliver a $4,000
benefit, it cost us $20,000 in tax payer money.

That was a Teeny, TINY program

compared to health care. Republicans are wasting our money too, but this one is
a no brainer.....and this one goes way beyond $$$ money. It's digging into your
FREEDOM.
Reply 16 4
Obama is a disaster  - Liberalism is a mental disease   |03-22-2010 18:19:27
You can tell from the postings that Liberals/Obama voters' IQ's are at least 30
points lower than the average American. All they ever do is call people names
who have a different viewpoint than them....no facts, completely out of touch
with reality....sad really...you could ALMOST feel sorry for them if they
weren't such nasty people who wished such destruction upon our country so they
can get 'some free ****'
Reply 26 7
Anonymous   |03-22-2010 18:08:05
Why don't people get it! This bill had nothing to do with cost cutting for
Americans healthcare. If it did then why wasn't tort reform put in...or the
ability to buy across state lines. This was and is a sham and people are buying
it. They will see eventually how this bankrupts this country and they will be
the first to squall!
Reply 28 2
Zeno   |03-22-2010 18:05:03
Part 3

So I'm good to go, right?

"Oh no", says my state, and "Oh
no", says Obama. We require your insuror to offer this, this, this, and
this, otherwise your insurance would be affordable and you wouldn't be demanding
that the government to take over health care.
"Oh," you say.
"Oh," I say. "We thought "liberty", like in the Declaration
of Independence meant that we were free. That we could make agreements when we
like with who we like and it was no one's business but our own."

Liberty. A quaint notion. Outdated, of course.

Reply 16 1
Zeno   |03-22-2010 18:03:40
Part 2:
So you hire some actuarial experts and decide to offer certain
coverage for certain conditions to people who are not actually now sick. I look
at the plan and, hey!!! It's much cheaper than my current plan. Of course, it
doesn't cover hair transplants, but so what. It doesn't cover childbirth, but
my wife says she wouldn't let me get pregnant anyway. It doesn't cover
substance abuse, but I don't drink or do drugs. So I'm good to go, right?

"Oh no", says my state, and "Oh no", says Obama. We require
your insuror to offer this, this, this, and this, otherwise your insurance would
be affordable and you wouldn't be demanding that the government to take over
health care.
"Oh," you say. "Oh," I say. "We thought
"liberty", like in the Declaration of Independence meant that we were
free. That we could make agreements when we like with who we like and it was no
Reply 14 2
ann   |03-22-2010 18:02:19
The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples
money. Cloward and Piven....look it up. The collapse of our system is
purposeful.
Reply 23 1
Zeno   |03-22-2010 18:02:19
Assume you just won the lottery - the big one; hundreds of millions of
dollars. You take it to the local bank and they offer you 1.3% interest.
"Ridiculous," you say, "I'll start my own business.
But what
business? Retail generally is awful, the government runs all the car companies,
banking is a black hole, and building is, if anything even worse. "I
know." you say, "Obama says health insurance companies are making
obscene profits, I could use some of that."
So you hire some actuarial
experts and decide to offer certain coverage for certain conditions to people
who are not actually now sick. I look at the plan and, hey!!! It's much cheaper
than my current plan. Of course, it doesn't cover hair transplants, but so
what. It doesn't cover childbirth, but my wife says she wouldn't let me get
pregnant anyway. It doesn't cover substance abuse, but I don't drink or do
drugs. So ...
Reply 14 1
JHE   |03-22-2010 18:02:11
Yeah, Rational Thinker, I actually feel entitled to the money that I earned.
I'm such a whiner.

Use your money how you like (why don't you spend some
money on medications for the uninsured?) and I'll use my money how I like.
Keep your hands off my wallet and my freedoms.
Reply 27 0
anonymous  - give me a break   |03-22-2010 17:57:39
mr military... my father was also military and yes, the medical service i had
growing up was good (not perfect, but good). however, that is absolutely not the
same thing as having "universal health care." for one thing, military
service is voluntary, you can opt out of it. for another, you have to do what
your superiors tell you to or risk your job and being kicked out. you sacrifice
quite a bit of freedom for that health care (not that i think that is an unfair
trade in the case of the military). aside from obvious things (haircuts), there
are many other differences. for example, after 9/11, i was living overseas and
the base was on lockdown. we couldn't leave. fine, that's fair, my father chose
his career path. in addition, everyone on active duty on base had to wear the
camo to show solidarity, fair enough. the base was dry, absolutely no alcohol
was allowed at that time. again, fine. i had my license taken away and h...
Reply 18 0
Rational Thinker  - Call me a whaaaaambulance   |03-22-2010 17:54:35
You teabaggers need to get a frickin life.
Reply 7 41
JHE   |03-22-2010 17:51:21
Overthrow the government? We're nowhere near that. Of course, when we start
having political prisioners (those who refuse to buy Obama's health insurance),
we'll be pretty close.
Reply 16 0
Taylor   |03-22-2010 17:47:52
e it became England 2.0. The Constitution says we can challenge our government
if it is in the wrong or oppressive. It's only getting stronger each day. If you
were to try and overthrow the government right now, although the Constitution
permits it, you'd probably be thrown in a federal prison for treason.
Reply 10 3
Taylor  - ...   |03-22-2010 17:45:44
Didn't Russia just have a revolution to throw socialism out about 20 years ago
because it wasn't working there? First our school system is socialized, and God
knows what else, and now our health care. People need to understand that this
isn't an issue of selfishness of people making profit. I have no objection to
everyone in this country having the health care they deserve for the right to
life. However, I'm not okay with the government controlling the doctor's I see,
when I see them, and what for. A man from France said they wait 6-9 months for a
doctor's appointment (under socialized health care), and if they're really sick,
they fly to Houston for immediate help. It may work in some countries, but
America was made to be a democracy. One of the biggest names in history, Thomas
Jefferson, saw the terror in the government controlling too much. His ideals
were to keep the new republic out of the hands of a strong government befor...
Reply 25 5
JHE   |03-22-2010 17:45:19
"Orel Hazard - Awww. Poor rich people. |03-22-2010 17:33:07

A
whole 3.8% tax on stock market earnings for $250K and up? I can barely see
through the tears or hear through the violins"

Money is spent most

efficiently by those who earned it.

I guess that's the difference between

us. I think I'm entitled to the money I earned. While you think you're
entitled to the money I earned.
Reply 21 6
Anna  - Wow   |03-22-2010 17:45:13
Wow. I'm getting my graduate degree and I'm 24. But because I'm trying to get a
better education and not have a full time job, I obviously don't deserve to stay
on my parents' insurance... Aren't I so lazy!
Reply 9 28
S.  - security vs. medical care   |03-22-2010 17:42:41
RE: Chris

Is this about medical care or is it about security? You can't be

serious about what you said in point 3...

Of course, America is not Europe. All

I am asking for is pretty much what Blade asked for: That you read not only this
here but also articles that are less one-sided.
Reply 7 2
1380   |03-22-2010 17:37:28
Now we are all on the slippery slope let's grease the hill!!!! Is it better to
slowly peel off a bandage or quickly rip it off? I say crash the system,
bankrupt the government. Legalize all illegal immigrants, get them their
government hand outs. Next pass Cap and Trade kill, the energy sector. Don't
forget the auto industry while you're at it. The only way to defeat the
"progressives" is to not play the game. Jam every liberal policy they
want passed down their ever-loving comie throats. Go Galt
Reply 11 4
Pcags  - We could stand a little socialism...   |03-22-2010 17:36:44
My beef with the President is that he is not LIBERAL ENOUGH! Now was the time
to go for Universal Healthcare and he chickened out... very disappointing.

You
psycho conservatives are really starting to freak me out. Do you realize how
******ed you sound? Do you not think of anyone but yourselves? Whether you
like it or not, you are a part of a SOCIETY. As such, there is a social
contract to help to take care of your 'brother'.

The idea of UNIVERSAL

HEALTHCARE (which we must still fight for) only codifies what you '******ians'
always claim you believe in - being your brother's keeper.

SOCIALISM IS NOT A
DIRTY WORD PEOPLE!!!!
Reply 9 61
greg cryns  - Sir, to you   |03-22-2010 17:33:59
One thing I've learned for sure on the Internet is that most people skim our
text.

So, I think you would be more effective if you:

1. made the font a

little bigger and darker
2. narrowed down the long list to maybe 5 ideas
3. made
the paragraphs shorter
4. Looks like those not agreeing with your post are made
almost invisible? Why? Be bold!

I AM interested in this discussion. All I know

for sure is that two of my children ages 21 and 23 will now have insurance. They
don't have it now for being laid off.

Otherwise, the bill doesn't affect me at

all. My wife is insured by the State and I am on her policy.

All is good for

me.
Reply 6 19
Orel Hazard  - Awww. Poor rich people.   |03-22-2010 17:33:07
A whole 3.8% tax on stock market earnings for $250K and up? I can barely see
through the tears or hear through the violins.

You tea party chumps who

misspelled your sad little signs and could barely veil your racism and classism
are getting EXACTLY the treatment you deserve: total irrelevance.

The sky
will not fall, there will be no fascism, and no matter how much you deserve
them, there will be no death panels.

Instead, you'll get the same thing that

opponents to civil rights, social security, women's suffrage and slavery got:
you will be reminded every day about how WRONG you were.

:)
Reply 9 42
Trimelda C. McDaniels  - Saw What Socialized Medicine Did In the Black Comm   |03-22-2010 17:27:21
I grew up on the West Side of Chicago from 1955 to 1972 and I can tell you what
the government did for me with their free hospitals and clinics-ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING! All they could do was to give me some pills for my cough and send me
home sicker than ever. My parents decided to save their money and take me to a
private doctor who saved my life during the years I struggled with lung
infections and worse, caused by the treatment I got from a government program
supported doctor years before then.
Guess what? That doctor, Dr. Mella, was
Cuban. He had left his country ahead of the Communists because he "could not
support his family" on the mandated funds for doctors in his homeland. Thank
God that he came to America because without him I would not have survived.
Free
clinics and hospitals don't attract the best. Money does!

Those who think the

government is your friend should live with government sponsored
housing(proje...
Reply 43 3
m e  - health-care   |03-22-2010 17:23:40
Yea, mr or ms Military, I lived it also and it was horrible. I could not get
appointments for my children only given out according to rank. Don't say it
isn't so I was there. Babies born in a ward with nothing but a curtain to
seperate. Oh, just wonderful.
Reply 10 5
Chris   |03-22-2010 17:17:47
RE: European

Apart from the obvious fact that this is not Europe, one or two
observations.

1. For decades, the Eurozone countries have been paying a far

smaller percentage of their GDP for security because we have been providing that
for them since WWII.

2. They are bankrupt, just as we are.

3. When we are
all bankrupt AND U.S. military strength has been decimated to pay for this
program, who will defend us.

At the end of the day, good feelings for those

less fortunate won't mean much. We cannot afford the government that we have
now. By my estimate, in 2030 we will be paying aproximately 90% of gross tax
receipts on Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare. Arithmetic is a *****.
Reply 25 4
"European"  - sources   |03-22-2010 17:05:20
As a "European" I find this article quite funny/disturbing. Ever thought
of people who cannot afford sufficient medical care? People who lost their jobs?
Or people who got cancer (or any other expensive disease which they do not
account for) without "planning" to have cancer?

Apart from having a

different opinion on this I hope that you guys do not only rely on this article
here but also read about the positive effects this may have, meaning not only on
you as an individual but on the society as a whole.

"MOVE BACK",
"immigrants", etc.pp.: Constructive criticism and non-racist comments
are generally much more useful.

And: Thank you in advance for greying my

comment...
Reply 11 38
Freedom - not so much  - remember the lines...   |03-22-2010 17:04:55
Sounds like a lot of price controls - like gasoline in the '70s. Remember the
lines at the pump? I can envision ER's looking very similar.......mahem!
Reply 26 4
evasgardening  - Sick and tired   |03-22-2010 16:59:53
And now the Government will pay for it yahoo!
Reply 4 15
Anonymous  - Good (not all) but good   |03-22-2010 16:50:31
So it was fun reading all the whining however. About time we caught up with the
rest of the world. Universal health care works and it works much better than
what we have here now. By the way I'm military so go ahead and tell me that a
government ran health care program can't work. I've lived it. I'm sure 95% of
the crybabies here have not. I enjoyed when my son was born I wasn't worried
about my premiums my deductibles my copays whether his stay in the NICU since he
was premature was gonna bankrupt me. If it didnt work we wouldnt have people
flocking into our military for no reason other than to get the medical benefits
for themselves and their families. I think all of you deserve what i had
available to me. even those of you who strongly disagree with me . I'm not
saying its perfect by any means but to live in a country where our medical
proffesionals are working against each other to try and maximize profits for
insurance...
Reply 17 50
joseywales   |03-22-2010 16:47:01
The Dems have actually created a thing of beauty. This POS will simultaneously
degrade the quality of our health care system and make it dramatically more
expensive. As an added bonus, it will accelerate our headlong rush to
insolvency. By 2030, we should be over the cliff. Welcome to the Brave New
World.
Reply 33 9
Russell  - Why is everyone so upset???   |03-22-2010 16:43:45
I think this is so funny in a scary way. Obama is doing exactly what he said he
was going to do. Change, Spread the wealth. Why did he win? The young voters.
All they care about is what they hear from their faverot liberal musian, movie
star, mtv news, but when the election is done they know nothing what is going
on. The younger person is most interested in having fun and where their next
peice of ass is going to come from they have been tought that they are their
own person, and not to listen to their parents that have been around a lot
longer.
Reply 39 12
Blade  - A little bit of knowledge...   |03-22-2010 16:30:47
I challenge everyone to actually read the Bill in the sections mentioned.
Like
#20 the 5% tax on cosmetic surgery... that applies to ELECTIVE surgeries... NOT
to stuff like burns!
I quote:
"... any cosmetic surgery (as defined in
section 213(d)(9)(B)) or other similar procedure which—(1) is performed by a
licensed medical professional, and (2) is not necessary to ameliorate a
deformity arising from, or directly related to, a congenital abnormality, a
personal injury resulting from an accident or trauma, or disfiguring
disease."
Why would you say that it taxes ALL cosmetic surgeries? Yeah sure,
Amber has to pay a little extra for the boob job, but NOT if you get scarred or
burned!
A lie by omission is still a lie.
If you don't understand all the legal
terminology, please get someone who DOES understand it to clarify it.
Please
stop the flow of misinformation and arm yourselves with actual and complete
knowledge.
Th...
Reply 20 17
Danny  - Huh??   |03-22-2010 16:25:13
1-4 and 6 are the same thing
Reply 3 2
Dan   |03-22-2010 16:13:59
In response to Brendan Connell @ 15:23:18,

That section of the bill says

that insurance companies may vary their rate based only on:

1. Individual v.
Family coverage
2. Rating Area
3. Age, except that such rate shall not vary by
more than 3 to 1 for adults
4. Tobacco use, except that such rate shall not
vary by more than 1.5 to 1 for adults

So...those are the only items that an

insurance company could use to adjust their rates. This would cause everyone's
premium to go up. The author of the article is still correct, as lifestyle
factors (other than smoking - and that won't cause a large variance) no longer
have much of an influence on premiums.

As to the rest of your comment, how

would preventing insurance companies from offering policies that give the
consumer more choice and get the consumer more involved with the revenue stream
within healthcare reduce costs?
Reply 7 1
Resident in Corrupt Illinois  - What about an Individual?   |03-22-2010 15:40:04
I tried to explain to a friend how bad this is and she said, no because nothing
affects me. Those rules are for insurance companies and help those who do not
have insurance. She believes this is good. I would like a top 20 list of how
this affects an individual/family. Thank you
Reply 19 4
Shadowsbane   |03-22-2010 15:38:36
Great, Now we can get all the same wonderful care that the VA hands out to our
wounded veterans. Oh wait....
Reply 20 4
joan   |03-22-2010 15:25:35
The moochers and looters who want this bill are collecting the loot.

You cannot
steal a ones earnings and private healthcare and expect to get away with
it.

You are no better than horse thieves..and what happened to them in the
olden days?
What out commie libs, you day is coming.
Reply 17 13
Brendan Connell   |03-22-2010 15:23:18
I only had to read as far as #2 to find something
false.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3590
/text?version=eas&nid=t0:eas:960

The very section that was cited at the end of

that bullet point specifies that insurance companies may adjust rates based on,
among other things, age and tobacco use. So you can still get better rates for
being "young" and you don't have to pay higher premiums to support
"the guy who smokes three packs a day."

Most of the rest of the list

can be summarized as insurance companies no longer being allowed to offer
worthless insurance policies. This isn't even really an unfunded mandate, thanks
to the subsidies the government is giving them to help pay for roughly 16
million new customers.
Reply 18 34
Babydoc   |03-22-2010 14:38:15
This abomination shreds the Constitution primarily by forcing citizens to buy
something they do not want; by forcing doctors to be slaves to the government;
by imposing an even more marxist tax-mugging scam onto the citizens; and by
violating the First Amendment freedom of religion in that it forces those with
religious objections to abortion to be complicit in the murder of the unborn via
tax-funded abortions. I am not the only physician who will be leaving the US to
practice elsewhere if this horrid legislation is not repealed. Victor Davis
Hansen has called referred to this as our crossing of the Rubicon. Our
Constitutional Republic is suffering dysrhythmia, and we have a very short time
to charge the paddles before death is irreversible.
Reply 34 16
Sherry Ramire  - Sad sad day for this country   |03-22-2010 14:22:29
I got a news flash for you Michele M, I do have good insurance and I would like
it to STAY that way. Now, however, that is in serious jeporady. Not only can we
not afford this bill as it WILL continue to drive up the deficit even worse, it
will drive up premimums for those of us who do have insurance, it will cause
doctors to retire or quit in droves, and it will destroy the private sector at
an ever increased rate. Get ready for the Sh** to hit the fan folks if this
communistic bs doesnt get repealed.
Reply 23 9
Jim De Sotle  - Margaret said it best!   |03-22-2010 14:21:39
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually, run out of other
people’s money.”

So, I feel like calling my payroll department and uping

my number of dependants from 2 to 32 million!
Reply 23 10
Thomass   |03-22-2010 14:06:42
You left out the crushing the middle class part. Premiums go up but people in
the middle income range before 250k do not qualify for the tax write offs to
compensate for the expense. I.e., it could easily be $7 out of pocket... in
return for less freedom over what policies to buy.
Reply 10 6
Samuel Adams  - Please READ the article above   |03-22-2010 13:45:29
MM,

Pulling out my LIttle Orphan Annie Secret Decoder ring, I didn't find FOX
News or Republicans anywhere in the article. And it had References to the bill,
too! It IS a big deal. It's MY money that will pay for this monstrosity and
the freemarket of healthcare that will be desttoyed. I, too, can read...and I
see nothing about tort reform, inter-state competition, illegal aliens, or real
details about stopping Medicare fraud (another tax-payer under-funded
entitlement) in this bill. Surely government can concoct a remedy for the
supposed millions of occupants who are on their deathbeds without *****ing the
rest of us.
Reply 17 6
Iben  - Assume the position ...   |03-22-2010 13:41:26
BOHICA
Reply 4 5
Eric H   |03-22-2010 13:38:27
"Why does tis have to be so cynical? Is there any place to get the data
without
any attitude?"
Why of course! Haven't you heard? This is the most
open and transparent government ever!!!!
Reply 14 12
Jimmy  - Socialist nations cause the increase in America's   |03-22-2010 13:33:35
Socialism is what causes the increase in America's costs. Not only do we see it
locally with the caps on medicare and the shortfall that has to be recouped by
hospitals from those caps (via increased costs to insurance and individual
users), but we see it internationally by supporting the apparatus that gives the
world new medical discoveries, of which the world is happy to rob us for.

I
just hope and pray that the Supreme Court will see how unconstitutional this is
and will overturn the legislation. May America's balance of powers work, or we
are completely *****ed.

If not, time to start a blackmarket healthcare system.

Reply 20 8
Samuel Adams  - Docs and Eurpoeans   |03-22-2010 13:19:30
Dear Doc Alert: If perhaps you are really a doctor and interested in providing
healthcare, you might want to join the people who are trying to reduce the
abuses and costs that are charged by HOSPITALS and PHYSICIANS to protect
themselves from lawyers and not propose confiscating my dollars to pay
one-size-fits-all rates for other's insurance costs.

BillD: If you had

REALLY lived in Europe it must not have been in France or Britain. People
really DO die there for lack of health services (google "heat stroke",
"filthy hospitals"). In the hundreds and thousands. You must be
extremely healthy to have left such a paradise of healthcare. Your shame comes
from such a transparent lie.
Reply 20 12
Michael Mercer  - Come on people   |03-22-2010 13:05:51
Do you even know what you are making a big deal about? I mean, come on people!!!
How many of you reading this actually have medical insurance? It does not take a
rocket scientist to acknowledge that this was the best thing that has been done
in America in a very long time. Stop following like sheep what FOX NEWS and your
Republicans tell you. I am a conservative myself, but that does not mean that I
cannot think by myself and come up with my own analysis of what is wrong and
what is right. Go and read a real article about the reform and what its real
purpose is.
Reply 19 54
haha  - wow, an impressive round-up of BS   |03-22-2010 12:56:57
Your name is David Hogberg and you want to write an intelligent piece on the
drawbacks of the passed health bill, relying on nothing but logic, facts, and
basic reasoning skills? Tough. Your intelligence will not allow it.
Reply 13 42
PKS  - What's The Hurry!!   |03-22-2010 12:56:57
Brkaway09 at 12:22 AM March 22, 2010
Brkaway09 at 11:58 AM March 21, 2010

This is not a bill for the American citizen. Its all about Obama and his
legacy. Thats all he is concerned about. He has even admitted that on National
television. If this problem took years to develop it cannot be solved within
months. This should be a step by step approach, ex. tort reform, medicare fraud,
overbilling by hospitals and doctors etc.. Once those have been cleaned up then
move on to the next area to bring down cost and increase coverage. Why do we
need a massive overhaul? Its all about this Presidents limited time in office
and establishing his legacy while he is in there. The whole approach should be
done on a methodical basis if you want it done right. This President isn't
interested in that, only what he wants. He is NOT looking out for the American
citizen. Wake up America! This has nothing to do with party politics, this has
ev...
Reply 33 12
Suzanne Marie - DO NOT WANT  - WE ARE NOT IN EUROPE   |03-22-2010 12:50:21
Everyone is saying that we should be grateful to be getting into such a system -
because the "Europeans" have had it for so long --- blah blah! Hey,
wake up - we CHOSE to MOVE FAR AWAY back in the 1700's because we DIDN'T want
that kind of lifestyle. And if you are part of the group who DOES -- THEN MOVE
BACK!
Reply 30 13
Samuel Adams  - Core concepts   |03-22-2010 12:45:13
Which leads us to the core of the argument. Government is ill-equipped to
micro-manage much of anything in the economy... whether it's mortgages,
welfare, or health care. All of the entitlement programs on the governemnt's
books are running into the red. They are immoral and innefficient experiments
in "wealth redistribution". We have the courts to equally enforce the
laws that government writes and the markets to reward and punish the risk-takers
and the greedy. The institutions already exist to allow our society to become
the greatest and fairest on the planet. Having the Federal Government come in
and take my money and make my decisions while pretending to be more noble and
wise is not one that I'm willing to suffer under...
Reply 27 7
BillD   |03-22-2010 12:44:06
Having lived in Europe, where health coverage is universal, I am ashamed and
embarrassed by the American system. I am happy to give up some of my own health
benefits to see univeral coverage. I just don't understand why our system,
which is the major cause of bankruptsy among Americans, is so much more
expensive than the systems used in most of the rest of the developed world. The
bill is not perfect, but it's a big improvement. It's reqally unfair that
loosing a job or having a low paying job means a big health risk. Also, the
cost of health care makes our manufacturing uncompetitive in international trade
Reply 19 58
Doc Alert  - u guys are sick   |03-22-2010 12:43:33
You guys are sick,

Belive me, you dont want an option of bad insurance with

less premiums. When u get sick, u will be royally *****ed by insurance. This
bill will protect millions of people who are sick and millions of others who
would realize that only when they get sick.

While u r healthy now, stop

screaming around like babies.
Reply 17 42
Derrrak   |03-22-2010 12:42:55
Why does tis have to be so cynical? Is there any place to get the data without
any attitude?

Reply 10 21
Samuel Adams  - Merck and the COURTS   |03-22-2010 12:36:21
Tiffany's original comment made light of who is best suited to "spend the
money". I still contend that those who MAKE the money should get to spend
it. As for the scandals of Merck, GSK, Eli Lilly, and others...this is why we
have the courts and the markets. Any or all of these companies may not survive
the rapacious decisions they were involved in. If government wants to widen the
tort laws in these cases and let the courts fight it out, they are
constitutionally allowed to do so. If they want to "tax" them...this
doesn't address the problem and doesn't redress greivances and injuries. And
that seems to be a bad argument which leaves the fed in more of a co-conspirator
role. Much like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac...
Reply 22 3
Rob Ives  - continued   |03-22-2010 12:34:13
If any provider is making an unusually high profit providing a good or service,
then other providers have a strong incentive compete on price. We have
regulated and regulated health care such that it is very hard to compete and
therefore the prices skyrocket. Now we seek to correct our error by doing more
of the same. It will not work.
Reply 23 4
Rob Ives  - Democrats and competition   |03-22-2010 12:30:13
#13 is a good example of how government, especially Democrat government, views
competition: "13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your
hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in
a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of
what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot
increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C))."

They
think that by preventing the cost of building health facilities they will cause
the cost of health care to go down. They don't think competition for customers
creates more efficient (cheaper) services.

In addition, if you follow

standard liberal arguments about health care it is clear they think removing
profit will cause a huge reduction in price. Profit is a tiny amount of the
price of any good or service in the free market. If any provider is making a
Reply 15 3
death  - tiffany   |03-22-2010 12:06:27
name one drug that if not taken correctly will not be harmful or kill you ****
too much water will kill you.. birth control can be harmful or kill you but i
bet that doesnt stop you from taking it....
Reply 7 3
Yamez  - Jessica - Keep Reading   |03-22-2010 12:04:03
The author has it right. It's in Section 1501 - subsection 5000a. Sorry if my
terminology is wrong.

Also want to point out that there is nothing in the bill

as referenced by poster "Patty Ann" about implant chips for us
all.

This bill is bad enough without people needing to make up stuff about what
is (or isn't) included.
Reply 8 0
Rick   |03-22-2010 12:01:27
Is this supposed to be real journalism? Each talking point is jam packed with
opinion and conjecture.
Conservatives, go read an article that isn't slanted
towards your eyes...just as I just did with this.
Reply 13 24
Samuel Adams  - smartguy: citizen   |03-22-2010 11:55:10
smartguy's 6 words of contribution to this serious subject is presumably why we
have the people in Washington that we do now. Instead of keeping your IQ/age a
secret and resorting to ad hominem attacks, feel free to point out the facts and
fiction. References are appreciated...
Reply 6 1
Tiffany  - Samuel Adams - The Court Records are Open for All   |03-22-2010 11:46:59
Just one example, Sam...Merck's own internal do***ents in Vioxx litigation made
it clear that they'd been aware that the drug was life-threatening to certain
groups, but held off advising the FDA for 9 months because they'd calculated
that the delay would bring an additional $229 million in profit. That's right
from the mouths of the decision-makers, and it's hardly the only time such
information has emerged in pharmaceutical litigation. With punitive damage
caps, it is more profitable to leave a drug ont he market for as long as
possible despite anticipated wrondful death suits, and companies own records
indicate that this is a major factor in their decision-making. Sorry that you
don't like that, but facts aren't "libel" just because they're
unpleasant. I know we have to feel sorry for Merck and the like because of
their "meager" profits (quoting Zumkopf)...down to $486 million last
year, I believe...b...
Reply 9 1
Penny Patterson  - Death Care For Seniors   |03-22-2010 11:41:28
I am a retired Senior with COPD and Emphysema, what do you think the
Comrade-In-Chief's Death Panel will tell me? I am not taking this Death Care, I
will pay the penalty. I am hoping that the Supreme Court will call this
Unconstitutional and it is.
Reply 21 6
smartguy  - dont worry, be happy   |03-22-2010 11:31:38
you guys are funny. and stupid.
Reply 4 29
Bruce  - 750.00   |03-22-2010 11:24:37
Tiffany

I believe that will happen in reconsiliation. It was in the senate

version, back in December when the senate passed it 60-39
Reply 2 0
Jessica  - $750?   |03-22-2010 11:13:17
I am no fan of this bill , however you have an error in line 1! The bill is at:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3590/show
S ection 1501 is about
education and has no mention of a $750 fine for new business owners. That makes
the rest of your arugements moot in my opinion. Am I missing
something??
(someone who tries to do her own research instead of letting others
think for her)
Reply 15 10
Samuel Adams  - Tiffany - adjusting tinfoil hat   |03-22-2010 10:53:29
Given that that the core of any capitalist enterprise is to make money,
Tiffany's complaint is stating the obvious. However the non-sequiter is
astounding. If a pharmaceutical, after the incredible cost of developing a drug
and shepherding it through the FDA maze for years and hundreds of millions has a
nefarious scheme for "killing" people, that kinda works against the
profit motive, wouldn't you say? A drug has to be successful for years to
recoup its costs. But by all means, if you have evidence of your libel and how
they can make money by "killing" people...show it to us.
Reply 11 2
Larry   |03-22-2010 10:52:35
Would some one help me? I don't know which of the 1-20 statements are not true.
I have listened to the health care issue for a year now and I think they are all
true. Please help make me as smart as you.
Reply 5 1
Zumkopf  - Tiffany - Idiot   |03-22-2010 10:10:18
Between insurance and pharmaceutical companies trying to make a (meager 2%)
profit off of medical care, all the while constrained by the need to keep their
customers and the threat of lawsuits, and the government killing people with
bureaucratic incompetence, criminal lack of responsibility, cronyism, nepotism,
mindless cookie-cutter "economics", all while insulated by "soverign
immunity", I'll take my chances with the capitalists. And the experiences
of Britain and Canada prove me right. You show me a cutting edge Socialist
medical system. It. Does. Not. Exist.
Reply 22 5
Melissa  - to Libertarian Baby   |03-22-2010 09:55:16
If you truly were a Libertarian you would be completely against the government
forcing control on the private sector and forcing all American citizens to
purchase a good (something that has never been done in history and is completely
unconstitutional). I think you are a different type of Lib... a Lib-ERAL!
Reply 13 4
Thomas Quinley  - uh....August   |03-22-2010 09:53:58
can you say, mathematical demographics, percentage increase = aging population x
life saving intervention. Who, in your family, do you want to be evidence of the
Darwinian (THEORY)???????????
Reply 3 4
JoDe Le Wheeler  - Savage   |03-22-2010 09:53:28
I'm with Ben on this:

"People willing to trade thier freedom for

temporary security deserve neither or lose both."

If we don't stand-up &

fight who do you think will stand-up & fight for us.

Be your own back!

Reply 16 10
Tiffany  - Irony   |03-22-2010 09:53:08
I'm entertained by all the "think you know better how to use that
money?" questions directed to insurance companies and pharmaceutical
companies and others that have shown us again and again how they use their
money: to make more money for themselves even when it means consciously killing
the customers who depend on them and are paying for the privilege. Somehow, I
have trouble seeing the "right" to kill your customers as an important
"freedom".
Reply 13 50
August Wenzel   |03-22-2010 09:20:40
Kinda funny all the comments I agree with are grayed out, so I guess it won't
take long for me to join the group

I've been a political junky for all my life

and I just have a few observations

In 1993 Newt Gingrich shouted out that the

Clinton's where trying to take over 6% of the economy... In 2010 ***** shouted
out that Obama care was trying to take over 12% of the US economy... just one
question exactingly how much of the US economy does the Health Care need to eat
up before conservatives think we need a fix?...

and please point me to the

legeslation that points to republican bills that addressed the problem when they
were in power
Reply 11 52
bajaretired   |03-22-2010 09:04:07
What’s next – 20 million new Spanish speaking citizens getting food stamps,
welfare, unemployment and Obama care? Real change huh?
Reply 28 12
Patty Ann  - A "Chip off the Ole Block"   |03-22-2010 09:00:46
There's a pretty starling thing in the bill that 95% of Americans won't
like.

The Obama Health care bill under Class II (Paragraph 1, Section B)

specifically includes ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable."
Then on page 1004 it describes what the term "data" means in paragraph
1, section B:

14 ‘‘(B) In this paragraph, the term ‘data’ refers to

in15
formation respecting a device described in paragraph (1),
16 including
claims data, patient survey data, standardized
17 analytic files that allow for
the pooling and analysis of
18 data from disparate data environments,
electronic health
19 records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the
20
Secretary"

What exactly is a class II device that is implantable? Lets

see...

Approved by the FDA, a class II implantable device is a

"implantable radiofrequency
transponder system for patient identification
and health information." Th...
Reply 14 6
ImpeachIbama  - Idiots!   |03-22-2010 07:46:20
Alice Wigglebotton, and 99% of the time someone that brings up the word
racist/racism, they're the ones that are the racist!
Reply 27 3
ImbeachIbama  - One good thing   |03-22-2010 07:39:11
At least we will never need to worry about keeping up with the, Jones, we'll all
be broke, equally, except the wards of the state, they'll be driving the fancy
cars and we'll be providing them with everything else!!
Reply 20 9
Alice Wigglebotton   |03-22-2010 07:29:50
"Take away" is neo-con code for "black." You are a racist bigot.
Reply 5 54
UplanderK  - Offensive   |03-22-2010 01:58:51
This article is offensive, and I'm ashamed that the author treated such serious
issues in such a glib manner.

I hear Costa Rica is nice this time of year.

Reply 12 54
A moderate  - While I do not approve of the bill in its current   |03-22-2010 00:30:35
While I do not approve of the bill in its current incarnation, I really think
that most, if not all of you, are blowing this way out of proportion.

mr right,
Congress is exempt from this bill because they receive socialized health care.
It's quite ironic that those touting the evils of socialized medicine are the
ones receiving it.

Angel Schultz, you disgust me. I believe that you are not a
true ******ian. You probably pay more heed to Glen Beck than to Our Lord And
Savior.

Stephen Chudej, I'm curious how using the legislative process for its
intended purpose constitutes as treason. You're starting to sound like some
liberal talking about Bush; all of a sudden everything you don't like is
"treason."

One thing in this article that confuses me is that points 2

and 20 seem to contradict each other. You complain about having to pay for other
people's lifestyle choices, and then you complain about having to pay for our
Reply 15 53
mr. right  - to the Libertarian   |03-21-2010 23:47:04
you are not very smart have you read any of the bill? **** no...
obama is
family and congress are exempt from this plan.. if its so great why dont they
have it?
it gives insurance to ILLEGAL immigrants.. how is that right they are
not citizens..it spends federal money on abortion...and thats just some of it..
you are not very bright and you as well as obama and all the people that voted
for it should be put to death... healthcare reform is needed but not THIS
healthcare reform..
Reply 23 10
Angel Schultz  - Protect our freedom. Stop Obama   |03-21-2010 23:32:46
May the God he so blatently defies have mercy, save his soul, and hear the
prayers of his children for this nation to turn back to Him. ONE NATION UNDER
GOD INDIVISABLE WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
Reply 22 11
John  - Helen....   |03-21-2010 23:03:21
Helen, you're right. The main problem being that Obama went with the healthcare
reform idea McCain had(Insurance Mandate) rather than what he supported to get
elected(Public Option). I'm extremely disappointed, cause Obama chickened out.
Reply 6 19
Libertarian Baby  - WAAAHHHH!!!   |03-21-2010 22:26:56
TYRANNY!! WAHHH!!! BLOOD!! WAAAHH!!!

RIGHTS INFRINGED ON!!! WAHH!!

You people
are nothing but a bunch of crybabies.

Where is the treason Baby Stephen?

Anna,
to quote the article: tough.

Helen: It's working out GREAT! Much better than

the lost 8 years under Mr Deficit Spending himself.

Go move to Colorado Springs

as it rots from within under a Glibertarian government.
Reply 10 70
Helen McGregor  - freedom lost in U.S.A.   |03-21-2010 21:16:24
I wonder if everyone that voted for the pres. and congress are getting what they
voted for. HOW'S IT WORKING FOR YOU? Most of the people that I talk to are sorry
they voted for this president. Are you?
Reply 39 7
Stephen Chudej  - Treasonous B*stards !   |03-21-2010 17:25:25
We, the people, own this country... We have the right, the duty and the
obligation to overthrow any unresponsive government guilty of TYRANNY. Mark my
words...blood will flow in the streets. Let's make sure it is THEIRS and not
ours. They work for us and let's not let them forget it! Everyone of them
should be held criminally liable for Treason.

This is the exact reason that led

our Founding Fathers to include the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States. Be afraid, Washington, be afraid. The citizens own this country
and we will take it back.

Oh, and the punishment for Treason against the United

States of America was once a date before a military firing squad...
Reply 47 18
sandra shelton  - do not want   |03-21-2010 17:05:49
do not want my rights infringed on
Reply 33 6
Anna Weiss   |03-21-2010 16:54:38
I don't want this bil.
Reply 40 6

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