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Topic: How to show other hand is empty after retention vanish?

Message:
Posted by: limhanchung (Jan 19, 2003 09:19AM)
Many people know about the retention vanish in my place. I need some way to show the other hand is empty.
What sleights can be used to achieve this?
Message:
Posted by: sethbek (Jan 19, 2003 10:12AM)
lap it. misderection and put it in pocket. sleeve it. scratch head and leave it there. use a gimmick like a
raven. if you are on carpet, just drop it and step on it. or outside just come up real close to their face and
throw it over there head- they wont see it fly. just for example. get creative.
:pepper: :spinningcoin: :pepper:
Message:
Posted by: limhanchung (Jan 19, 2003 10:15AM)
I don't want a clean vanish. I want to make it look as though my other hand is empty because I am going to
reproduce the coin.
Message:
Posted by: Isramagia (Jan 19, 2003 01:24PM)
Limhanchung,
If you are going to show your other hand to demonstrate that it is empty, you can try the Tenkai pinch or one
of the other back hand moves. If you are wearing a jacket, sleeving seems to be simpler; you can reproduce
it easier. Hope this helps. :sun:
Message:
Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jan 19, 2003 01:27PM)
Typically you want to have something coming next in your routine so that you can keep moving and not have
to "prove" your hand empty. But if you have to do it:
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to "prove" your hand empty. But if you have to do it:

You can use a behind the hand concealment like a back thumb palm or back clip, or a hand washing
aquitment or use a sleight of hand steal to remove the coin from your other hand.
[url=http://www.coinvanish.com/video/hideandseek.wmv]Here[/url] is an example of using them all. Its not
particularly a great routine, but it works as an example.
Message:
Posted by: Isramagia (Jan 19, 2003 01:41PM)
Nice routine Dan. Do you think the same routine, with those same slights, be done more slowly and still look
good?
Message:
Posted by: shanla (Jan 19, 2003 01:59PM)
limhanchung,
I think the Wiped Clean will serve you. I think the best version of this sleight is one explained in David Stone's
video.
Message:
Posted by: r4bid (Jan 19, 2003 02:12PM)
wiped clean would work well, looks as if you are showing both hands totally empty and its classy. You could
also spin it into a back clip or thumb clip.
As dan said, you should not just be doing the retention vanish as a one act show. If you just go "look the coin
goes into this and, wow its gone" people automatically will suspect that it is in the other hand. You have to
construct a series or sleights that blend together to create an interesting routine where the audience wont
care which hand the coin is in because they will be having some much fun watching you do magic.
Message:
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[quote]
On 2003-01-19 13:41, Isramagia wrote:
Nice routine Dan. Do you think the same routine, with those same slights, be done more slowly and still look
good?
[/quote]
Isramagia, I doubt it. It's not really a well thought out routine, I just did it to show how hands can constantly be
shown empty while being dirty.
Truth is, you typically only need one display not all strung together like that.
Dan
Message:
Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Jan 19, 2003 05:37PM)
limhanchung,
Believe it or not, most people have no idea a retention pass exists, much less that one is possible. Most
people simply won't believe their eyes and go into cognative dissonance.
In routining, one ordinarly accounts for the magic of the vanish by doing something to cause the vanish OR
using the move to accomplish something like putting the coin away without losing use of the coin. When
routining a vanish, some magicians pick up a prop (say a wand) and use it to account for the magic. The
naturalness of the hand hiding the coin implies the hand being otherwise empty. Some folks use edge grip
and pickk up a second coin to wave over the one that is going to vanish. <<== hint hint
Now let's get to the problem with 'proving' things. This need will turn around and bite you at the worst times.
Let's call it Doug Henning syndrome... major symptom is the O/C behaviour of showing ones hands empty
every ten seconds. Tragic disease. Sufferers are caught with palmed cards and coins every day. Their
audiences notice when the usual time interval goes by and the magician fails to demonstrate the 'empty
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hands' display behavior.

The cure for this was refined about a hundred years ago by John Ramsay. He made a point of showing only
what was directly looked at and only when both he and the audience were looking at it. Also, only when it
served the purposes of his routines. This requires far more acting and far better hold&hide skills on the part
of the performer. The benefits come with clarity of effect and greater room for presentations of interest
beyond procedural narratives.
If this is too much, just go with the edge grip and pick up another coin for a sec.. :)
Message:
Posted by: KyleHarnish (Jan 19, 2003 07:32PM)
The Inertia Pass aka "The Selvester pich 98" that way you can show both hands empty but then produce it
again if you want.
Message:
Posted by: Sneakers (Jan 19, 2003 07:40PM)
Jeff McBride has a nice little subtlety where he shows both hands "empty." Actually one hand is shown front
and back, while the other (dirty) hand only shows the back.
It's a quick and easy method for showing both hands (supposedly) empty while one hand is holding out. He
features this little feint on his "World Class Manipulations" video volume 1. BTW -- there's also quite a lot of
good coin, thimble and ball work found on that programme. Great stuff for working stage and platforms.
Good luck!
Message:
Posted by: Dano (Jan 19, 2003 07:40PM)
I like to do the retention vanish with let's say a 1/2 dollar, drag out the empty hand misdirect really high in the
air while exchanging the half dollar for a jumbo half via my blind sided pocket. After the switch I hold my hand
with the jumbo tightly clenched (to be obvious). The audience will always call me on it "It's in your other hand",
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produce the jumbo by tossing it on the table with a resounding CLUNK! Yep, you got me on that one!!!
Works for me anyway :spinningcoin:
Message:
Posted by: sanskara (Jan 19, 2003 11:22PM)
Every once in a while I'll come across someone who's hip to the retention vanish. Consequently, I almost
always find a way to work in a spider/retention decoy vanish in a standard retention's place.
Without describing it in too much detail (I'd hate to have yet another post of mine deleted here), let's just say
you mimic a retention vanish and employ a spider or double-feignt mechanism to imply that both hands are
empty. Meanwhile the heat is off the important hand, then you can transfer and reproduce (the coin, that is.)
:spinningcoin:
Message:
Posted by: Clayman (Jan 20, 2003 11:18PM)
KyleHarnish,
I have the "The Selvester pich 98" tape also and believe it is a Great move! It is probably not used by many
or is under used, but I, like you think it is under-used. I don't think the majority of magicians even know what it
is, or have seen it. Keep practising it Kyle, I will one day see you on Television.
Message:
Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Jan 20, 2003 11:28PM)
limhanchung,
( is that middle, first then family? )
some folks do the dr roberts sleeving move to complete the retention pass. the coin goes from fingertips to
'long gone' almost in one move. No need to drop you hand to the side first, just make ONE move of it.
if you need details on how to... this could continue in the secret sessions.
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:)
Jon
Message:
Posted by: Brian Proctor (Jan 20, 2003 11:49PM)
Here is another way, Check out Bobo's book. On page 17, there is a move called the Change-over pass.
You cleanly show both hands empty after vanishing a coin. You can show both front and back, and then you
can reproduce it anyway you like. I hope this helps. :)
Take care,
Brian Proctor
Message:
Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 21, 2003 12:08AM)
There's another technique that most people overlook, but it's in Coinmagic. See Slydini's manipulation of the
spectator, rather than the coin. He shows both hands, but he doesn't open the hand with the coin. He just
makes the spectator think he did.
It's an old Jedi mind trick.
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Jakks (Jan 21, 2003 10:12AM)
I REALLY like Sankey's Coin vanish in Revolutionar coin magic....I think it was the messiah vanish. You place
the coin in you fist saying" When we place the coin in the hand, we want you to think it's vnaished!" You open
the hand it was just put into. "But of course we know it's truly gone!" Both hands are then shown totally em pty.
It can be reproduced really easily. You can see it done in the demo for Revolutionary coin magic at
http://www.penguinmagic.com/
Jakks
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Message:
Posted by: James Harrison (Jan 22, 2003 09:09AM)
Dr. JakksI enjoy doing the messiah vanish when you get people who think they know what your doing with the coins.
But maybe you or anyone else might have an idea on this:
What is a better way to reproduce the coin after the vanish other than letting it slide off the back off your hand
into the other hand.
Jay can make it work, but I don't like it, when I watch myself on video and in the mirror, it just looks like I'm
letting it slide off the back of my hand.
I've played with different approaches, but some ideas on reproducing the coin after the vanish would be
appreciated.
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Jakks (Jan 22, 2003 12:51PM)
I have practiced until I can get it to slide directly into the crotch of my elbow. I am trying to extend my arm and
have it fly from my elbow. Then it will "fall from the sky"...I still can't do it perfectly even 75% of the time, but If
Paul Harris' simple switch is possible, this must be too.
Jakks
Message:
Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 22, 2003 01:34PM)
James, the basic concealment goes back well before Mr. Sankey, and you'll find it in Bobo's. There, it is
suggested that you use a hankerchief to retrive the coin. Other approaches:
Reaching/grabbing gesture (Skinner)
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Moved to an even sneakier position, then produced (Williamson)

Retrieved under natural motions involving a pen (Klause)
Plenty to choose from, look 'em up.
Message:
Posted by: BenSchw artz (Jan 22, 2003 03:05PM)
Is it just me or is the messiah coin vanish the EXACT same vanish as which is taught in Michael Skinner's
"Intimate Miracles" lecture notes as the M.S. Coin Vanish??
Message:
Go back further Ben, it can be found in Bobo's as well. I would not be suprised if it shows up in earlier
sources. The concealment is not new, Jay didn't claim it. Jay's claim was the particular recovery from it he
used.
Steve Draun has a nice little handling that uses a similar concealment called a
[url=http://www.stevedraun.com/movies/perfectcoinvanish2.wmv]Perfect Coin Vanish[/url]. Click the name of
the routine to view it. In my opinion it looks better, and the recovery is better than Sankey's version.
Message:
Posted by: James Harrison (Jan 23, 2003 10:16AM)
Dan- Thank you posting that, That is a excellent way to work that vanish.
Curtis- Looks like I have some studying to do, and re-read Bobo's book. Looking forward to Magifest, so I
can get Williamson's book, hopefully yours as well. (I'm trying to convince Kainoa to go as well. Would love to
meet him.)
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Dr. Jakks- That is a great idea with the elbow, I'm gonna try that. Such an interesting idea.
Message:
Posted by: iSaw That (Jan 24, 2003 05:42AM)
I occasionally use Greg Wilson's all-round vanish to get rid of a coin completely, not sure what the opinion of
everyone else is on this one, but i DO like the fact that the 'dirty' hand continues to distract the spectator's
attention waaay after it ceases to be dirty, and in itself allows you to clean up. even badly done i've found that
no one can tell where the coin went.
As for the Messiah Vanish, is it just me or does the coin tend to slide off the w***t rather easily? is there any
way to prevent this?
Message:
Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jan 24, 2003 09:24AM)
[quote]
On 2003-01-24 05:42, iSawThat wrote:
As for the Messiah Vanish, is it just me or does the coin tend to slide off the w***t rather easily? is there any
way to prevent this?
[/quote]
Let it rest against a watch band, or lick the back of your hand before you do it. The hardest part is the
misdirection to lick your hand without looking goofy.
Message:
Posted by: KyleHarnish (Jan 24, 2003 09:32AM)
You can also try the wipe clean move. I don't know who its by but is good.
P.S. Ben you funny
Message:
Posted by: bakerkn (Jan 24, 2003 12:35PM)
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[quote]
On 2003-01-24 09:24, Dan Watkins wrote:
...The hardest part is the misdirection to lick your hand without looking goofy.
[/quote]
Employ the Cardini strategem of a slight cough and raising the hand to cover the mouth in a natural and
motivated action.
Kevin
Kevin
Message:
Posted by: sanskara (Jan 25, 2003 01:56AM)
I also use Sankey's Messiah Vanish but found that the recovery is a little lacking--even though he pulls it off
pretty well.
My solution is to use the vanish as a segue into the Tores Move. That way you can show both sides of the
hand and CP the coin at the same time. I believe David Stone shows this move on his 2nd coin magic vid.
Message:
Posted by: JoshBlum (Jan 31, 2003 09:53PM)
[quote]
On 2003-01-24 09:32, KyleHarnish wrote:
[/quote]
I would also go with this move. If you wanted it completely vanished you could also use some misdirection
and just slip the coin into your pocket. Ooooooh misdirection.
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Message:
Posted by: Danno (Feb 1, 2003 07:53PM)
I also use Greg Wilson's All Around Vanish.

It's explained on his Off The Cuff & On The Spot videos.
Message:
Posted by: John Long (Aug 18, 2010 07:34PM)
I think its Jim Pace in Visu Antics (see the demo) that has a way of grabbing at the air to reproduce the coin,
after what appears to be a Messiah vanish.
Message:
Posted by: Dougini (Aug 18, 2010 10:33PM)
Wow, look how old this thread is..2003! I noticed it when Dan Watkins links were long expired! LOL!
I have to admit, the times I AM busted after a retention vanish, this is my "out".
I "accidentally" drop the coin on the floor, and scoot it under my shoe, in the act of picking it up, I pretend to
"play" with the coin a bit, and do a sort of "pass", except I have NOTHING! Both hands empty!
Doug
Message:
Posted by: J-Mac (Aug 19, 2010 12:02AM)
I sometimes use something on the table, commonly my cell phone, and pick that up to wave as a wand and
then put the coin under it when I replace it on the table. It works nice but of course you still have to deal with
the coin at some point.
Thank you.
Jim
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Message:
Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 19, 2010 11:05AM)
Many ways I suppose but an easy way to me is via quick misdirection as you simply CP the coin and then
wave it over the other hand to show it's gone! I do this a lot when I'm just jazzing-around for people. Once it is
clearly implied that my hands seem empty from that perspective, I then switch it up to even more clearly show
them empty via my Clean Hands technique that shows the hands straight-out, completely empty. ;)
Message:
Posted by: funsw ay (Aug 19, 2010 11:51AM)
Ideally you should causually or directly show the "dirty Hand" empty befor eyou reveal the vanish (Preemptive
Doubt). Having the coin in Ramsey or Liwag Subtlety while getting another object in the hand works fine.
After the Vanish is Revealed the eyes will not go to go to the other hand becasue you have already shown it
empty, and a simple Washing, Crossover or my CrossToss alternately shows the hands empty.
There are also ways of "idling" the coin so that the dirty hand is actaully empty, but your hand movements
should not be much different than above -- just add a nose scratch or open handed gesture. As mentioned
numerous times above -- the spectaor will only be suspicious if you act strangely.
Message:
Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 19, 2010 12:36PM)
I agree funsway, the control of the spec's focus is all in your hands. :) It's funny how all this becomes
secondary to you in your movements after a while. It's like the the hands just know what part of the dance they
should be doing at every point of the spec's gaze upon you. Gotta love it! :)
Message:
Guys, I hate to admit this, but I'm not familiar with the names of all the subtleties. Ramsay, I know. I just
learned the one I've been doing for years, is called the Kaps' Subtlety. Never knew it was called that. Maybe I
need to go to Magic School or something.
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Can you guys point me to a place, where I can learn the names of these and other subtleties? That way, I
won't feel so stupid when I read about Liwag, and the sort.
TIA!
Doug
Message:
[quote]
On 2010-08-19 11:05, Mb217 wrote:
Many ways I suppose but an easy way to me is via quick misdirection as you simply CP the coin and then
wave it over the other hand to show it's gone! I do this a lot when I'm just jazzing-around for people. Once it is
clearly implied that my hands seem empty from that perspective, I then switch it up to even more clearly show
them empty via my Clean Hands technique that shows the hands straight-out, completely empty. ;)
[/quote]
Or, after the waving, move the guilty hand over the palm up (other hand), a drive-by load, continue with the
now clean hand to grab the coin from thin air, mime dropping into the hand that is holding out (someones
subtlety keeps them from seeing the coin, close the fist, give a little shake, and the coin has reappeared in a
hand that was just shown completely empty.
Dougini
I had considered Kap's and Ramsey subtleties essentially the same; maybe it would be good to compile a
list in the secret sessions.
Message:
Posted by: Dougini (Aug 20, 2010 10:25AM)
Good idea! Thanks, John!

Message:
Posted by: J-Mac (Aug 20, 2010 04:30PM)

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Doug, I dont know that there is any one place that lists magic's "subtleties". You just kinda pick them up in
reading books, forums, and anything else you find about magic.
At least I haven't found any such central listing. If you do find something please let me know!
Thank you.
Jim
Message:
Yeah, Jim, John got me to thinking. Doing magic for as many years as I have, I wonder if there are those like
me who would benefit from knowing the names of the various subtleties, and moves, i.e. Downs Palm,
Ramsey Subtlety, etc. I'm sure there are numerous sources...I wonder if anyone would like to add to the list I
started in Secret Sessions?
Doug
Message:
Posted by: Bambu (Aug 20, 2010 07:47PM)
I like the Mutobe palm, this sleigh allows the hand concealing the coin to be shown flat and able to spread
open all the fingers while weaving over the other closed hand supposedly holding the coin.
Kainoa Hartbottle teaches this sleigh on the NYCMS Vol 1-2 (Great DVD's).
Message:
[quote]
On 2010-08-20 19:47, Bambu wrote:
I like the Mutobe palm...Kainoa Hartbottle teaches this sleight on the NYCMS Vol 1-2 (Great DVD's).
[/quote]
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Thanks Bambu! I wonder how we can post that effectively in the Secret Sessions thread...
Message:
Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (Aug 21, 2010 07:47AM)
SHOW YOUR HAND EMPTY? - NEED I DRAW YOU A MAP?

IF EASY TO DO IF YOU JUST USE YOUR LAP!
Message:
Posted by: funsw ay (Aug 21, 2010 09:33AM)
Why the shouting?

for some of us our lap disappears when we stand up, so we have to devise/research other methods. It also
may be difficult to retrieve a Lapped coin without fumbling or making an unnatural move. Any Ditching
Method can work here -- until you need the coin later -- at least that is where my map leads.
Long ago I knew a magician who was constantly stroking his goatee. Since this was a natural move for him
he could Idle a coin, ball or other small object under his chin and retrieve it later. Just by lifting his head the
object would drop to be caught by a passing hand or cup.
The proper handling of a coin or other small object may be considered a wilderness with many traps and
pitfalls; but, fortunately, there are many proven paths accross from which one might choose.
Message:
There is a pattern here, of new users coming into the Caf, and posting rather rudely. I hope this does not
continue.
Message:
Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (Aug 21, 2010 03:06PM)
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Lapping is indeed a way to vanish a coin and be able to show both hands empty. It is true though that when
you lap an object it must be retrieved.
Slydini has come up with his famous IMPASS and David Roth has a variation of that. I came up with a way of
lapping without a table and then recovering the object which was published in APOCALYPSE (page 1521)
which harry Lorayne called THIGHING. Also I've posted varius other ways of retrieving objects from my lap on
the Perverse Magic thread of the Genii Forum.
Of course lapping can GENERALLY be done only when seated but I do MOST of my magic at lunch or
dinner with friends or a client.
Incidentally, I used capital letters with the little "rhyme" above for no particualr reason. I did not intend to be
rude nor intend to shout. I apologize to anyone offended.
Message:
Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 21, 2010 03:10PM)
Sleeving, folks, sleeving. I think I teach a couple on one of my DVDs. HL.

Message:
Posted by: Bambu (Aug 21, 2010 03:33PM)
Sleeving is really a good technique for vanishing and retrieving a coin but during the summer is to hot to
wear a jacket at least for me.
Message:
Posted by: funsw ay (Aug 21, 2010 05:16PM)
If you only perform seated as Gerald suggests, you don't have to wear anything at all. Lots of misdirection
possibilites too.
Message:
[quote]
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On 2010-08-20 19:00, Dougini wrote:

...doing magic for as many years as I have, I wonder if there are those like me who would benefit from
knowing the names of the various subtleties, and moves, i.e. Downs Palm, Ramsey Subtlety, etc. I'm sure
there are numerous sources...I wonder if anyone would like to add to the list I started in Secret Sessions?
[/quote]
I have asked that thread to be locked. Sorry guys. Just trying to be of help here. Sometimes good
intentions...you know...
And yes, sleeving would be good! Lapping is what I normally do to ditch a coin or other object, since I'm
sitting most of the time when asked to perform. The shoe idea I came up with myself, as an emergency "out",
but I have heard others have done the same thing.
Doug
Message:
[quote]
On 2010-08-21 15:06, Gerald Deutsch wrote:
...Incidentally, I used capital letters with the little "rhyme" above for no particular reason. I did not intend to be
rude nor intend to shout. I apologize to anyone offended.
[/quote]
And I, Gerald, apologize for misunderstanding you. I had to re-read that a couple of times. LOL! I get it now!
At 54 yrs old, the old brain's clutch slips a bit. And a belated WELCOME to the Caf! (wiping more egg off
my face now...)
Doug
Message:

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[quote]
[quote]
...doing magic for as many years as I have, I wonder if there are those like me who would benefit from
knowing the names of the various subtleties, and moves, i.e. Downs Palm, Ramsey Subtlety, etc. I'm sure
there are numerous sources...I wonder if anyone would like to add to the list I started in Secret Sessions?
[/quote]
I have asked that thread to be locked. Sorry guys. Just trying to be of help here. Sometimes good
intentions...you know...
And yes, sleeving would be good! Lapping is what I normally do to ditch a coin or other object, since I'm
sitting most of the time when asked to perform. The shoe idea I came up with myself, as an emergency "out",
but I have heard others have done the same thing.
Doug
[/quote]
What's the purpose of locking this thread? and how does it help?
Message:
Posted by: Dougini (Aug 29, 2010 09:57AM)
Not this one, the one I started in Secret Sessions. I mistakenly thought there would be a need for a list for the
names and descriptions of all the Coin Subtleties and Palms, so we would have a reference. I admit, I am
quite ignorant of the names of all these. For more than 20 years, I've been doing the Kaps' Subtlety, and
never knew it was called that.
A few years ago, I realized that I've also been doing a Ramsay Subtlety, and recently thought. "Wow, where
have I been?" And, since there IS no list of these I could find (and believe me, I searched), I figured, since
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Secret Sessions is not a public forum, maybe I could start a thread that was helpful (ala Meilechl, and, "Links
to Past Tricks"). Almost everyone applauded Meilechl, and I merely wanted to show my support for Coin
Magic.
Big mistake. I was PM'ed some really angry messages, and some were helpful, pointing out the error. I
asked the admins to remove that thread. They refused, so I asked that it at least be locked, so there would
be no more discussion on it. Now, if you read the thread entitled, "Coin Subtletlies & Palms", in Secret
Sessions, it seems I have started an argument that really was not intended. Meilechl understood my intent,
but Michael Baker made perfect sense as to WHY it was a bad idea from the beginning.
~Whew~, one does learn, eventually. But the COST is sometimes more than bearable. Thank you Mods, for
locking that, and hopefully it will disappear into deep history.
OK...back to our regularly scheduled program...
Doug
Message:
Didn't make perfect sense to me.... Heaven forbid we ever list the names of known subtleties used in magic.
Jim
Message:
Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Aug 29, 2010 06:45PM)
[quote]
On 2003-01-19 09:19, limhanchung wrote:
[/quote]
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If I understand your question correctly, you have already done the false placement but but not yet shown that
hand empty - and wish to show the hand that should be empty to "not contain a coin" - yes?
My first solution to that problem came out of an older book that simply suggested immediately lapping the
coin. Those who know me have likely seem do this with a few coins in a row. But back to your question - I'd
like to understand your goals better.
As an aside, my second solution is detailed in the Apocalypse item "Coin Go-Return" (title supplied by Harry
Lorayne) which describes an efficient way to get into EG, an update on the Ramsay Subtly and a Shuttle
Pass variation that gets some "air time".
Okay - back to you - where are you right before you do the false placement and what would you like to
happen next?
Jon
Message:
Funny you mention this JT, that picture (in Secret Sessions) didn't strike me as a Ramsay Subtlety, more so
like an exposed view of/after a shuttle pass. :)
But you're right Doug, the intent of it all surely got a bit off track and I see a couple of pretty smart-enough
guys got into an intellectual wrastling match about it (ain't that always the case), mostly as to what each other
meant or should've meant. The best laid plans of mice and men...and I guess magicians too, eh? :D
I remember long time back now suggesting that there be a visual (video) attachment relative to the famous
Bobo book as to moves, sleights and effects. Folks here, mostly the intelligentsia, thought it was
unnecessary. It made no sense to me as most folks found the book somewhat lacking in desrcriptions and
illustrations. I simply thought that a visual presentation of the book would be helpful to people. Made sense to
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me and despite the roar of the crowd here to leave well enough alone, I believe there came to be a Bobo
Coin Magic website and even a DVD set that sprung from the initial suggestion and made it's way into a
mostly helpful and welcomed existense here. I can still remember the initial lament, basically "Why in the
world would you have a video attachment to Bobo's when it's not necessary....What do we need that for?" :D
Message:
Thank you all for understanding and enlightening me. I sure WILL "leave well enough alone" from now on!
I have learned so much from you guys. It has improved my coin magic immensely. I am now learning a new
Coins Across, reading Jonathan Townsend's book. I learned new ways to use the various subtleties from
Marion Boykin, and a new Click Pass from Vinny Marini. I've adapted a new Retention Vanish, from watching
Mickey Silver, and watching the DVD set from Michael Rubinstein and reading the new book from Larry
Barnowski.
Showing the hand empty after a Retention Vanish (Pass), is done exceptionally well by Marion Boykin
(Mb217). His "Grandpa's Coins 2 - This Old Man", is a perfect example. Besides lapping or sleeving, I know
of no other way to accomplish the showing of the dirty hand empty. He fooled ME with his combination of
subtleties. If you want an affordable routine, that accomplishes that, and more, go here:
http://www.vinnymarini.com/download/
Let MB know how you like it. Just watch the video first. Then purchase the download. You'll see. Thank you
Marion, and everyone!
Doug
Message:
Posted by: boydy (Aug 30, 2010 02:17AM)
Check out Ponta the Smiths Coin Vanish.

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Harbottles coin vanish on volume 5? of NYCMS JW grip.

Depends if you want to show the hand completely empty or apparently empty.
Boydy
Message:
Posted by: rannie (Aug 30, 2010 03:17AM)
How to show other hand empty after the retention vanish...?

This is just my thought and in no way the correct answer. Let me share what I have in mind.
First.. I make sure I set it up properly. The per vanish! I toss the coin and display it clearly. I then I find a
reason to put it in the other hand. It could be anything from the silly to the well moptivated such as... "watch
what happens when I put the coin in my left hand..... or " If I remove my glasses (Ramsey display as I remove
my glasses)"...
Once the action of putting the coin in the other hand is clear and sold.... the vanish is almost completed.
I like to show the "other hand" seemingly empty before I show the vanish with the hand that received the coin.
For without a shadow of a doubt... supported by the fact that they "kinda" saw the other hand empty... the
coin has got to be in the receiving hand. When I open the receiving hand... The coin has completely vanished
in their eyes and more importantly... in their minds.
After this credible scenario... I can ditch gingerly anytime. Motivated still however or choreographed at least.
Just my humble thought all the way from Sunny Manila!
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Cheers and Mabuhay!

Rannie
Message:
Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (Aug 30, 2010 07:26AM)
I mentioned LAPPING above but let me tell you how I use it with the Retention Vanish.
I see to it that a salt shaker (again - I do this at lunch or dinner with friends or clients) is to my right.
I do the Retention Vanish and my left hand (empty but supposedly holding the coin) remains still while my
right hand (with the coin)travels in an arc (Like a U )to get the salt shaker. As the right hand reaches the low
point of the "U" it is over my lap and it's then that the coin is dropped.
The right hand is shown empty as it reaches for the salt shaker.
Salt is sprinkled on the left hand and that is "what causes" the coin to vanish.
(As I noted above, there are some ways to then retrieve the coin.)
Message:
Posted by: funsw ay (Aug 30, 2010 05:15PM)
If you are going to Lap the coin (or sleeve it, or Toss it) then why include the Retention part at all? Actually
place and show the coin in the Receiving Hand, then with the Directed Focus of the Placing Hand getting the
salt shaker, wand, etc. ditch the coin. Properly done the Receving hand never moves. There is no POV as
good as actually seeing the coin lying free in the receiving hand. For me, the only reason to use the Retention
Vanish (and other Passes) is to retain control of the coin for other purposes.
Message:
Funny, I was sorta thinking along the same lines here. While I like what GD mentioned that he does, I just
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wondered why lap the coin? Easier to simply keep the coin finger palmed as you pick up the salt shaker.
That way you can even reproduce the coin in some clever ways while still being able to show your hands
pretty much empty. Don't get me wrong, the lapping works well enough but funsway raises a good point. But
in general, it's all good. :)
Message:
When done, pick up your coin purse and put it back in your pocket...
Jim
Message:
Posted by: Magicray69 (Oct 13, 2010 07:54AM)
I use a hooked coin.

Message:
Posted by: Russell Davidson (Oct 13, 2010 09:33AM)
Unless you use a holdout sleeving is surely the most logical way to go here if you're not going down the clip /
subtlety route.
However, showing your hand empty directly after your ROV needs to be looked at further. If your ROV is
good enough then there is no need to immediately show your hand empty. Only after you reveal the vanish
does the heat change to the other hand. The timing & order of events largely depend on the effect but
essentially your ROV shouldn't need re-enforcing right away if done correctly.
When I do a ROV I always actually put the coin in my hand first, patter a bit, open the hand & remove the coin,
patter some more & then ROV. Then some time misdirection before the vanish is revealed.
If you really need or want to show your hand empty right away then it's back to one of the more traditional
methods.
Message:
open in browser
PRO version
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Message:
Posted by: dduane (Oct 18, 2010 10:18PM)
Watch how Mickey Silver does it (YouTube). You should get your 'dirty' hand away from the closed hand right
away. A finger palm with the palm facing out is convincing enough - if you have the right body language.
Message:
Posted by: J-Mac (Oct 19, 2010 03:02PM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-13 09:33, UncleBunkle wrote:
Unless you use a holdout sleeving is surely the most logical way to go here if you're not going down the clip /
subtlety route.
However, showing your hand empty directly after your ROV needs to be looked at further. If your ROV is
good enough then there is no need to immediately show your hand empty. Only after you reveal the vanish
does the heat change to the other hand. The timing & order of events largely depend on the effect but
essentially your ROV shouldn't need re-enforcing right away if done correctly.
When I do a ROV I always actually put the coin in my hand first, patter a bit, open the hand & remove the coin,
patter some more & then ROV. Then some time misdirection before the vanish is revealed.
If you really need or want to show your hand empty right away then it's back to one of the more traditional
methods.
[/quote]
Mickey Silver seems to think that showing the empty hand is indeed important with this comment he made a
few days ago a few threads down:
[quote]The Burn of seeing "NOTHING" in the other hand is far, far more important than seeing the burn of the
coin in the very hand we supposedly put it in.
We must remember :Seeing an object in our hands is no more important than seeing nothing in our
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We must remember :Seeing an object in our hands is no more important than seeing nothing in our
hands.......We must use these two as a balance. [/quote]
What do you think?
Thanks!
Jim
Message:
Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 20, 2010 10:01PM)
Funny, when I was a kid I remember wondering why that little "2" was so important to the E=MC2 equation. I
mean it was just a little "2" off to the right upperside there of the "C" amidst these other big bold letters that
seemed so much more important, at least they looked as such at the time. :D Found out the little "2"
(exponentially speaking) was very important to the overall equation and [i]reality[/i] of things even though it
didn't look like much...I'm just sayin', I don't know but that's what I think or somethin' like that. . :)
Message:
Posted by: MICKEY SILVER (Oct 21, 2010 12:32AM)
Remember: We are really never actually showing the other hand empty.....WE ARE IN FACT LETTING THE
OTHER HAND "BE SEEN" EMPTY. This is of course if anyone wants to look.
I believe that letting the other hand be seen empty is far more important than showing the coin being placed
in the hand ... with a nice visual burn.
REMEMBER THIS TOO: The hand that is not actually holding the coin will in fact open up showing the coin
has vanished.... and the second it does open..... You know where the spectators eyes are going. !!!!
MICKEY SILVER
Message:
pdfcrowd.com
Message:
Posted by: Eric Jones (Oct 21, 2010 08:46AM)
[quote]
[/quote]
Try actually placing the coin into the other hand....for real, but in finger palm. This way you can open the hand
using a palm up Ramsey to show the coin to have vanished after showing what the spectators believe to be
the "dirty" hand empty. Then you can use the Korn Production from finger palm to reproduce the coin. That
should get those pesky spectators off your back.
Message:
Posted by: Strange Tasting Fish Sticks (Oct 21, 2010 08:59AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-21 08:46, Eric Jones wrote:
[quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
That's a great idea!
pdfcrowd.com
Message:
Posted by: vinsmagic (Oct 21, 2010 10:52AM)
Yes that is a good idea but the hand movement is not natural when Mickey does this it seems very natural
Message:
Posted by: Stanyon (Oct 21, 2010 12:10PM)
I couldn't help but notice that it took 7 years for someone to mention the JW Grip.
Message:
Posted by: Dougini (Oct 22, 2010 10:41PM)
That one Stanyon is new to me. I just learned it from "Flying Wombat & Squishy" by Kainoa Harbottle. I had
never seen this grip, nor heard of it. I have been doing Coin Magic for over 30 years. I was very fortunate to
acquire NY Coin Magic Seminar #7, or I would never have learned it.
Question, Stanyon. Where did you first hear of the JW Grip?
Doug
Message:
Posted by: lorenw ade (Oct 22, 2010 11:14PM)
[quote]
That one Stanyon is new to me. I just learned it from "Flying Wombat & Squishy" by Kainoa Harbottle. I had
never seen this grip, nor heard of it. I have been doing Coin Magic for over 30 years. I was very fortunate to
acquire NY Coin Magic Seminar #7, or I would never have learned it.
Question, Stanyon. Where did you first hear of the JW Grip?
Doug
[/quote]
pdfcrowd.com
Hey Doug, I learned it from MB. Pretty much the best download I have ever spent money on.
http://www.vinnymarini.com/download/crimpchange.html
Message:
Posted by: marlyd (Oct 23, 2010 07:54AM)
David Roth has a nice subtlety that might be useful. He does a retention vanish and then uses his subtlety to
be able to immediately extend the fingers and gesture,this could lead to sleeving, lapping or any of the other
methods already discussed, it is on his International Magic lecture dvd from International Magic.
Message:
Oh yeah, Loren, I have that! I had the NY Coin Magic Seminar DVD before I learned the CC. The CC takes
practice, but oh so deceptive!! in fact Vinny's "Click Clank" Pass was my first intro to the Crimp "Palm". I like
Mb's subtlety, and his JW Grip. You are right, though. Mb's is a must-have. Thanks! By the way, whatever
happened to that vid? "Clink Clank Pass"? I don't see it up there any more.
Doug
Message:
Posted by: mavericklancer (Oct 23, 2010 06:45PM)
You can get it for free by messaging Vinny. The Click Clack Pass was my first intro to the crimp too and is a
great sleight.
I'll also vouch for Roth's retention vanish on the International Magic Lecture DVD. It's so ridiculously simple,
but quite effective (at least when doing Roth's retention vanish).
Message:
I just found out that the J.W. Grip has been around since 1946! Jimmy Wilson came up with it. It is in
"Bennett's Fourth Book" by Horace Bennett, 1981.
pdfcrowd.com
Thanks to Spellbinder for that information! Had to search around for that...
Message:
Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Oct 24, 2010 09:16AM)
[quote]
On 2010-10-21 08:46, Eric Jones wrote:
[quote]
[/quote]
Eric,
Where can one find the Korn production?
Thanks, Jim
[/quote]
Message:
Posted by: tvellalott (Nov 3, 2010 08:39PM)
As has been said many times already, the vanishes are made magical by the context of the routine. Doing a
retention vanish is cool and everything, but you ultimately need to have it as part of a series of moves to
make it truly magical. So, retention vanish, ramsey subtlety, reveal hand as empty, hand-washing, production.
pdfcrowd.com
Message:
Posted by: Dan Watkins (Nov 4, 2010 11:26AM)
I just read through this thread. I think what I wrote 7 years ago on the first page is still key.
If you do a rentention pass within the context of a routine, where "something" happens next, you don't need to
worry about it, because all focus will be on the "something" that is happening next.
I don't care how good your rentention pass is, or any pass for that matter. If you just do it all by itself as a
single vanish and [b]stop[/b], all eyes will immediatly go to your dirty hand.
You can build routines so that you are showing your hands empty throughout the routine, while you are really
holding a coin or coins. As an example, watch my routine [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=6SiMLAUeD8E]The Imperceptible Purse[/url]. I don't neccessarily use a rentention pass, but throughout
the most of the routine I am holding 3 coins, yet I constantly show my left hand otherwise empty, and my right
hand otherwise empty due to the structure of the routine.
This is the concept I am talking about - the "something" next in the routine is what hides the coins...
Message:
Posted by: dogical (Nov 5, 2010 01:20AM)
Ponta dvd
Message:
Posted by: Dan Watkins (Nov 5, 2010 12:15PM)
That would work. You perform the retention pass, and then say, "Hey look over there at my Ponta dvd." And
you secretly put it in your pocket when they aren't looking.
Message:
Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Nov 5, 2010 08:04PM)
The most important concept in a vanish, is something Al Schneider has spoken about for years. To believe
that the coin is in the hand. Your body has to react as it would if you really put it into your hand. Look at Al
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Schneider on Coins, or what he speaks of in the New York Coin MAgic Seminar DVD series, to understand
his concept.
Message:
Posted by: Dougini (Nov 6, 2010 12:11PM)
Dr. Mike has some very good advice here for serious coin workers. The New York Coin Magic Seminar
DVD series, has got to be the most comprehensive collection of every kind of coin vanish, change, Coins
Across...I mean really! I have the first seven volumes, and there is so much there...from Dr. Michael
Rubinstein, David Roth, Mike Gallo, (the late) Geoff Latta.
And the special guests? Hoo-boy! I really think that Marion Boykin should be a guest at the next one! I really
enjoyed seeing Dan Watkins, Eric Jones and Kainoa Harbottle! Dan's "The Imperceptible Purse" is
priceless! That is on vol. 7.
If you are seriously into coins, and want a broad range of effects to choose from, I cannot find a more
diversified and talented bunch of guys than the above. I'd really like to see Marion Boykin in that line-up. He
would fit right in. So would Tim Feher! How about Mickey Silver? Just a thought...
Really, the guys that would be willing to share their technique should think about the next seminar! Rannie,
Kevin (Strange Tasting Fish Sticks), Vinnie, Stanyon...you get what I'm sayin'. Here is where to get the DVD
series:
http://www.newyorkcoinmagic.net/nycms_dvds.htm
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to "advertise", I just know value when I see it. Just spend some time there.
Click on each volume, and watch the video. $35 each DVD, (except the 2-DVD vol 1) has roughly 2 hours of
coin magic instruction.
This, in my opinion, is the best kept secret in coin magic!
pdfcrowd.com
Doug
Message:
Posted by: dpe666 (Nov 6, 2010 01:23PM)
[quote]
On 2003-01-24 09:32, KyleHarnish wrote:
[/quote]
"Wiped Clean" is Ammar's. :devilish:
Message:
Posted by: John Long (Dec 9, 2010 09:13PM)
And there are two versions of it in The Magic of Michael Ammar
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Topic: How to show other hand is empty after retention vanish?

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to "prove" your hand empty. But if you have to do it:

Posted by: Isramagia (Jan 19, 2003 01:41PM)

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hands' display behavior.

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Moved to an even sneakier position, then produced (Williamson)

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Posted by: Danno (Feb 1, 2003 07:53PM)

I also use Greg Wilson's All Around Vanish.

Posted by: John Long (Aug 18, 2010 07:34PM)

Posted by: Dougini (Aug 18, 2010 10:33PM)

Posted by: J-Mac (Aug 19, 2010 12:02AM)

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Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 19, 2010 11:05AM)

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Posted by: John Long (Aug 19, 2010 04:52PM)

Posted by: Dougini (Aug 20, 2010 10:25AM)

Good idea! Thanks, John!

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