Melendres v. Arpaio #1544 Nov 10 2015 TRANSCRIPT - DAY 18 Evidentiary Hearing

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
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Manuel de Jesus Ortega Melendres,

et al.,
Plaintiffs,
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vs.
Joseph M. Arpaio, et al.,

Defendants.
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(Evidentiary Hearing Day 18, Pages 4064-4297)
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Court Reporter:
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Phoenix, Arizona
November 10, 2015
9:03 a.m.
BEFORE THE HONORABLE G. MURRAY SNOW
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No. CV 07-2513-PHX-GMS
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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Gary Moll
401 W. Washington Street, SPC #38
Phoenix, Arizona 85003
(602) 322-7263
Proceedings taken by stenographic court reporter

Transcript prepared by computer-aided transcription
A P P E A R A N C E S
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For the Plaintiffs:

American Civil Liberties Union Foundation
Immigrants' Rights Project
By: Cecillia D. Wang, Esq.
39 Drumm Street
San Francisco, California 94111
Covington & Burling, LLP
By: Stanley Young, Esq.
By: Michelle L. Morin, Esq.
333 Twin Dolphin Drive, Suite 700
Redwood Shores, California 94065
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For the Defendant Maricopa County:

Walker & Peskind, PLLC
By: Richard K. Walker, Esq.
By: Charles W. Jirauch, Esq.
SGA Corporate Center
16100 N. 7th Street, Suite 140
For the Defendant Joseph M. Arpaio and Maricopa County

Sheriff's Office:
Iafrate & Associates
By: Michele M. Iafrate, Esq.
649 N. 2nd Avenue
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Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, PLC

By: A. Melvin McDonald, Jr., Esq.
By: John T. Masterson, Esq.
By: Joseph T. Popolizio, Esq.
2901 N. Central Avenue, Suite 800
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For Deputy Chief Jack MacIntyre:

Dickinson Wright, PLLC
By: Gary L. Birnbaum, Esq.
1850 North Central Avenue, Suite 1400
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Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
A P P E A R A N C E S
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For the Intervenor United States of America:

U.S. Department of Justice - Civil Rights Division
By: Paul Killebrew, Esq.
950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, 5th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20530
U.S. Department of Justice - Civil Rights Division

By: Cynthia Coe, Esq.
By: Maureen Johnston, Esq.
601 D. Street NW, #5011
Washington, D.C. 20004
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For Executive Chief Brian Sands:

Lewis, Brisbois, Bisgaard & Smith, LLP
By: M. Craig Murdy, Esq.
2929 N. Central Avenue, Suite 1700
Also present:
Sheriff Joseph M. Arpaio
Executive Chief Brian Sands
Lieutenant Joseph Sousa
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I N D E X
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Witness:
RUSSELL SKINNER
Direct Examination by Mr. Popolizio

Cross-Examination by Mr. Young
Cross-Examination by Mr. Killebrew
Redirect Examination by Mr. Popolizio
Examination by the Court
MICHAEL ZULLO
Direct Examination by Mr. Young
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Page
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E X H I B I T S
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No.
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Description
Admitted
MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner from

Michael Zullo re Response to Document Request
Regarding ITR 79 dated 8/5/2015
(MELC677737)
4232
MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner re

Response to Document Request Regarding ITR
80 dated 8/2015 (MELC662482 - MELC662484)
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E-mail chain re Arpaio/Melendres litigation

hold dated April 24, 2015
(MELC199344 - MELC199345)
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Letter from M. Iafrate re litigation hold

dated 4.24.2015 (MELC199311 - MELC199313)
4226

Regarding ITR 8 dated August 5, 2015
(MELC677718)
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E-mail chain re M. Zullo response to ITR 51

(MELC1338964 - MELC1338966)
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Regarding ITR 63 dated 6/29/2015
(MELC662480)
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E-mail from Russ Skinner to Michael Zullo

(redacted) [Skinner Depo Ex. 2931] dated
4/27/2014 (MELC1241293 - MELC1241294)
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P R O C E E D I N G S
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Please be seated.
THE CLERK:
This is CV 07-2513, Melendres, et al., v.
MS. WANG:
Good morning, Your Honor.
Cecillia Wang of
the ACLU for plaintiffs.
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THE COURT:
Good morning.
MR. YOUNG:
Stanley Young,
THE COURT:
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Good morning.
MR. KILLEBREW:
Paul
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Killebrew, Maureen Johnston, and Cynthia Coe for the United
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States.
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09:03:47
THE COURT:
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Good morning.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Joe
Popolizio and John Masterson of Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, and
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along with us is Holly McGee.
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THE COURT:
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MR. WALKER:
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Good morning.
09:03:58
Richard Walker
on behalf of Maricopa County, and I believe we'll be joined
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09:03:35
Michelle Morin, with Covington & Burling, for plaintiffs.
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09:03:26
Counsel, please announce your appearances.
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THE COURT:
Arpaio, et al., on for continued evidentiary hearing.
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shortly by Charles Jirauch.

MR. MURDY:
behalf of retired Chief Brian Sands.
Craig Murdy on
09:04:09
THE COURT:
Good morning.
MS. IAFRATE:
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Michele
Iafrate on behalf of Sheriff Arpaio and the nonparty alleged
contemnors.
THE COURT:
Good morning.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
09:04:18
Gary
Birnbaum appearing as special counsel for Deputy Chief
MacIntyre.
THE COURT:
Good morning.
MR. MASTERSON:
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Judge, I just want to note for the
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record, I know you got an e-mail from Mr. McDonald this morning
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that he has a sentencing hearing and will be here a bit later,
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but I wanted the record to note that he will be attending and
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has notified the Court that he will be a bit late.

THE COURT:
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absence?
MR. MASTERSON:
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THE COURT:
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Okay.
Okay.
Next witness.
Unless there's
Your Honor, this is Stanley Young for
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plaintiffs.
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sequence of discovery, and in particular, since Mr. Zullo's
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final deposition transcript is not ready, defendants will
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09:04:55
So we're going to begin the defense case.
MR. YOUNG:
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I do not believe so, Judge.
matters that we need to raise.
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09:04:44
Is there any reason why we can't proceed in his
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That is correct, Mr. Masterson.
09:04:29
Pursuant to prior discussions, and based on the
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proceed with Captain Skinner --
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THE COURT:
All right.
MR. YOUNG:
-- and we'll go with Mr. Zullo and
continue with plaintiffs' case after Captain Skinner has
finished.
09:05:30
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. MASTERSON:
Thank you.
Judge, just one note.
Now, I think we
discussed this early on and maybe even recently, but since we
are going somewhat out of order and plaintiffs have not rested,
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I did mention to the Court, gosh, I don't even remember when,
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that certainly some of the special counsel may be filing
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something akin to Rule 50 motions at the close of plaintiffs'
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case or at some point after the close of plaintiffs' case, and
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we may be making something akin to Rule 50 motions ourselves,
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but we're not waiving that by going out of order with -THE COURT:
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MR. MASTERSON:
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THE COURT:
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Chief MacIntyre.
You're not waiving --
-- our first witness.
Thank you, Judge.
Yeah.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
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THE COURT:
09:06:02
You're not waiving that at all.
MR. MASTERSON:
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Right.
09:06:11
Your Honor, Gary Birnbaum for Deputy
I appreciate Mr. Masterson's comment.
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appear this morning, Your Honor, just to see whether the Court
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was going to set a schedule for those motions on behalf of the
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special appearing party, and whatever you tell me, I'd then
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like to be excused.
THE COURT:
Yeah.
I understand that, Mr. Birnbaum.
I'll tell you that we cannot yet set that schedule,
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and that is in light of the fact that pursuant to some
discussions on a telephone call yesterday afternoon, I'm not
even sure any -- I thought I had a pretty good idea how long
this hearing was going to go, but yesterday afternoon it became
clear that it may go longer than I thought.
So I will tell you that as soon as I can -- as soon as
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I have an idea, I will allow you to be present and/or I will
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just do a written order indicating what I want.

Let's see.
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You want -- are you interested in doing
MR. BIRNBAUM:
Yes, Your Honor, either Rule 50 or
something similar to that.

THE COURT:
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All right.
09:07:25
What I will do is, so that you
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don't have to keep coming down here, I will enter, as soon as I
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can, as soon as I feel comfortable doing so, a written order
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indicating when I want Rule 50 motions.
And I'm going to wait -- because we're taking
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witnesses out of order, I'm not going to oblige you to make
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them formally at the end of plaintiffs' case.
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09:07:40
In other words,
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I'm not going to -- you're not going to waive your right to do
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so simply because plaintiffs' case may have been closed,
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because I'm not going to require you to sit here for the actual
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09:07:03
Rule 50 motions of the nature that Mr. Masterson has suggested?
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end of plaintiffs' case in order to make the motion.
Do you have any objection to that, plaintiffs?
MR. YOUNG:
No, Your Honor.
And I should note that I
don't believe, actually, that any of the evidence that
plaintiffs intend to introduce from here forward have anything
to do with Chief MacIntyre, so in case that's helpful to
Mr. Birnbaum.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Young.
Your Honor, with respect to the motion that you just
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described, if the Court is going to have oral argument on the
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motion, can you provide -THE COURT:
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-- some guidance as to what special
counsel will be allowed to do at that hearing?

THE COURT:
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09:08:44
Well, I guess, but I don't see that you'll
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be allowed to do all that much other than as it relates to
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possible criminal charges.
You may or may not be aware that Mr. Stein, and I
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believe Mr. -- no, maybe it was just Mr. Stein, but I don't
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think so, but I don't believe it was you -- requested that I
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not consider arguments on whether or not I was going to refer
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this matter -- I have said since long before this contempt
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proceeding began that if I felt like criminal contempt
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proceedings were necessary, I was not going to preside over the
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09:08:27
Yeah, I'll put it in the schedule.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
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09:08:13
09:09:09
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criminal contempt proceedings but I would be referring the
matter to the United States Attorney and to another judge at
the same time.
During a telephone conference last week, Mr. Stein
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suggested that I not entertain motions relating to whether or
not I was going to do a criminal referral until after I'd made
initial findings of fact in this matter.
make your arguments then, it would be uniform -- it would
probably be best that all specially appearing counsel make
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And so if you want to
their arguments at the same time.
09:10:06
The reason that it was set forth was that I had
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indicated that one of the considerations I was going to
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consider in whether or not I was going to refer matters for
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criminal proceedings was whether or not I could come up with
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adequate civil remedies in the civil contempt to cover the
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criminal proceedings.
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at least I'd made findings of fact.

MR. BIRNBAUM:
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Your Honor, thank you.
I was informed
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morning, because at least as to Deputy Chief MacIntyre, and
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particularly in light of the financial/economic considerations
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that you're aware of, I disagree with Mr. Stein's suggestion.
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of that request, that's one of the reasons I'm here this
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09:10:22
So Mr. Stein suggested that I wait till
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I would like the Court to hear our motion at the earliest
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possible date, unless the plaintiffs are perhaps now willing to
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dismiss any potential criminal referral suggestion as to Deputy
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09:10:41
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Chief MacIntyre.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
As you will recall, Your Honor, I made
that request way back early in the case.
to plaintiffs' counsel.
prepared to do that at the time -THE COURT:
The Court referred it
Plaintiffs' counsel said they were not
Yeah, I remember all that.
And unless any
party has an objection, I'll allow you to make your argument
whenever you want to make it, and I'll let you know when you
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can make it, but I'm only going to hear from you once.
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findings of fact and I don't grant your motion, I'm not going
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to allow you to argue again with the others.

MR. BIRNBAUM:
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THE COURT:
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THE COURT:
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THE COURT:
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Thank you, Your Honor.
Thank you.
And may I be excused this morning?
Thank you.
And I'll let you know -- if I don't let
you know by written order, and I'll try and do it by written
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order, I'll have my judicial assistant call you and tell you
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when an appropriate time would be for you to appear and make
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You may.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
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Understood.
All right.
MR. BIRNBAUM:
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09:12:02
any arguments that you want to make.
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MR. BIRNBAUM:
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THE COURT:
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So, for example, if I hear from you once before I do
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09:11:25
Very good.
All right?
09:12:17
MR. BIRNBAUM:
THE COURT:
Your Honor, defendant calls
Captain Russell Skinner.

THE CLERK:
09:12:23
Please step right up here, sir.
Can you please state and spell your first and last
name for the record.
THE WITNESS:
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Thank you.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Thank you again.
Mr. Popolizio.
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Skinner - DX Popolizio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
Yes, it's Russell Skinner.
R-u-s-s-e-l-l; last name Skinner, S-k-i-n-n-e-r.

THE CLERK:
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Please raise your right hand.
(Russell Skinner is duly sworn as a witness.)
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THE CLERK:
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Thank you.
Please take our witness stand.
(Pause in proceedings.)
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THE COURT:
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Please.
09:13:33
RUSSELL SKINNER,
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called as a witness herein, having been duly sworn, was
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examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
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BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
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Q.
Good morning, Captain Skinner.
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A.
Good morning, Mr. Popolizio.
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09:13:35
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Q.
How are you today?
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A.
Doing well.
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Q.
Captain Skinner, what's your current position with MCSO?
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09:12:51
And yourself?
09:13:42
A.
Sheriff's Office.
Q.
day:
A.
It is captain, sir.
Q.
And how long have you been --
I'm a patrol commander for the Lake Patrol Division for the
And perhaps the easiest question you're going to get all

Your rank is what, Captain Skinner?
THE COURT:
Honor?
09:13:59
Objection, leading.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
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Do I get to rule on that motion, Your
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BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
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Q.
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County Sheriff's Office?
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A.
For approximately a year and a half.
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Q.
So before we go over your career with MCSO, I just want to
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turn to your education a little bit.
And for how long have you been a captain with Maricopa
09:14:27
Could you give me your educational background.
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A.
Yes, sir.
Graduated high school, attended Phoenix College,
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have an associate's degree, business major; I attended some
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classes at university -- or Arizona State University, and then
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went into the police academy.
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Q.
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that you hold?
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09:14:44
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Do you hold -- aside -- well, is it an associate's degree
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A.
Yes, sir.
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Q.
Okay.
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ASU and the degree that you hold, do you hold any
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09:14:12
And aside from the education at Phoenix College and

09:14:59
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certifications or licenses?
A.
officer, certified police officer under Arizona POST, back then
ALEOAC.
enforcement relative to investigations, money laundering.
Yes, I do.
I'm a PADI master diver, certified mounted
Hold several certifications with respect to law
I'm a hostage negotiator; attended a slew of classes
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involving fraud, forgery, computer forensics examination,
Internet crime investigation.
others, but mainly centered around law enforcement, sir.
And I can go on for a couple
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Q.
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beginning because you're kind of soft-spoken, so if you could
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move to the microphone a little bit.
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A.
Absolutely.
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Q.
You said something about scuba.
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A.
I'm sorry?
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Q.
You said something about scuba?
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A.
Yes, sir.
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We have a dive team with the Sheriff's Office.
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Q.
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Sheriff's Office?
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A.
A little over 25 years.
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Q.
And so -- well, so you began your career at the -- with the
And it may be just me, but I lost a few things at the
09:15:41
What was that?
09:15:52
I'm a master diver, PADI master diver for scuba.
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Now, how long have you been with the Maricopa County
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MCSO around when?
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A.
May of 1990.
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Q.
And is that after you got out of the academy?
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09:15:20
09:16:06
09:16:20
No.
A.
September of 1990.
Q.
Okay.
A.
The Phoenix Regional Police Academy.
Q.
How come -- well, you didn't attend the MCSO's academy?
A.
No, sir.
One down south in Tucson, that's ALETA; and the Phoenix
Regional Police Academy.
Q.
I started the academy in May of 1990 and graduated in
And what academy did you attend?
In that time era there was only two acadamies:
THE COURT:
In addition to speaking a little more
09:16:52
loudly, can I get you to slow down just a little bit?

THE WITNESS:
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THE COURT:
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Yes, sir.
Thank you.
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BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
15
Q.
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first position?
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A.
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program with a seasoned officer.
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Q.
And what was your rank at that time?
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A.
Deputy sheriff.
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Q.
And how long were you a deputy sheriff with the Maricopa
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County Sheriff's Office?
Okay.
So when you got out of the academy, what was your
09:17:00
I went into an FTO program, which basically is a training
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09:17:15
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A.
As the rank of deputy sheriff, approximately nine years.
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Q.
Okay.
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A.
It lasts approximately 16 weeks.
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09:16:35
Now, so when you got out of the academy --
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How long did you stay in the FTO program?

12 weeks, I'm sorry.
09:17:29
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Q.
After your 12-week program was over with the FTO, what did
you do?
A.
the southwest portion of Maricopa County as a patrol deputy.
Q.
And what does a patrol deputy do, Captain?
A.
The full gamut of responding for calls for service, on-view
activity, maintain peace in the area, patrol the unincorporated
as well as the contract towns within the District 2 Patrol
area, search and rescue, investigations, and the whole gamut
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from traffic stops to getting calls for service for domestic
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violence, homicide investigation, what have you.
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Q.
And you stayed at that first position for how long?
13
A.
For approximately two years.
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Q.
Okay.
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had to move somewhere, so where was your next move?
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A.
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Relations Division of the Sheriff's Office as a DARE officer.
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Q.
What's a DARE officer?
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A.
Basically, the Drug Abuse and Resistance in Education,
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teaching school children, typically grades five and six,
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basically to stay away from drugs, and build the tie with law
22
enforcement in the school system, the educational systems.
I was then assigned to the District 2 Patrol facility in
09:17:52
And -- well, you stayed there for two years, so you
09:18:32
I applied for a position at the time with the Community
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09:18:48
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Q.
Why did you apply for that position?
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A.
It was something that when I joined the Sheriff's Office I
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truly -- I'm a second generation law enforcement officer.
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09:18:13
09:19:09
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truly wanted to build the community, wanted to do community
service and have a positive reflection of law enforcement on
the community.
Q.
other type of community relations?
A.
Maricopa County and responsible for not only the DARE program,
but the Explorer program, which is through the Boy Scouts of
America, with teenagers that are interested in law enforcement.
And during your time as a DARE officer, did you do any
Yes, sir.
I was assigned to the southeast portion of
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Gives them an opportunity to get an in-depth look and involved
11
in law enforcement.
09:19:44
I also did Block Watch programs, any other
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community-related events that were in the southeast portion, or
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assisted other members of that division.
15
Q.
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DARE position, what did you do?
17
A.
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Maricopa County, referred to as District 1 Patrol.
19
Q.
And for how long did you stay in that position?
20
A.
Approximately six months.
21
Q.
How come such a short period of time?
22
A.
I was asked to join the detective -- the district detective
Now, after this assignment in this community relations-type
09:19:59
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I left and went back to patrol in the southeast portion of
23
position in District 1 as a general investigator for the Patrol
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facility.
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Q.
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09:19:26
So you became a detective?
09:20:17
09:20:36
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A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
So how does one become a detective with MCSO?
A.
At that point in time, it was based off of the sergeant
that was running the detective squad.
looked for new candidates, people that excelled in skills of
report writing and follow-up investigation.
Basically, it was they
Once in that position, then it was incumbent on the
7
8
person coming into that to attend training, specialized
training, whether it be search warrants, in-depth arrest
10
procedures, different types of investigations from copper theft
11
to auto theft.
12
child crimes, child molestation.
13
our supervisor to attend classes through Child Help, build up
14
those relationships.
15
training, depending on the cases that you worked.
16
Q.
17
District?
18
A.
Approximately a year and a half to two years.
19
Q.
And then you moved on again?
20
A.
Yes, I did.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
I then applied for a position in the Special Investigations
09:21:10
With the area that I had had a high rate of
So we were also instructed by
So it was a lot of different specialty
09:21:33
IEN
DS
And how long did you spend as a detective in the Southwest
09:21:47
And where did you -- where did you go to?
23
Division as a narcotic investigator.
24
Q.
And what's the Special Investigations Division?
25
A.
Basically, it housed employees that did specialized
FR
09:20:53
09:21:59
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investigations involving anything from narcotics to money
laundering, high-profile type drug activity.
units.
comprised of other agencies; eventually, HIDTA, which was
methamphetamine type investigations, comprised, again, of
several agencies.
Q.
You got to apply for that position?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
What made you apply, you know, to CID?
10
A.
SI?
11
Q.
SID.
12
A.
SI --
13
Q.
CID we'll get to; SID, I'm sorry.
14
A.
SI, I had an interest in just doing more specialized
15
investigations beyond that of just generalized investigations.
16
Q.
From there did you make another move?
17
A.
Yes, I did.
18
Q.
And where did you go?
19
A.
I went to the -- again to the Community Relations Division
20
as a search and rescue coordinator.
21
Q.
And how long did you stay there?
22
A.
Approximately six months until I promoted.
We also housed MCNET, which was a task force that was
Sorry about that.
DS
IEN
09:22:26
09:22:39
23
Q.
24
involves what?
25
A.
FR
They had street
09:22:50
09:23:06
Now, it's probably self-defining, but search and rescue
Search and rescue, the Sheriff's Office is mandated by
09:23:25
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statute to provide search and rescue services to Maricopa
County.
resources, so we worked through the Department of Emergency
Management on the Maricopa County side.
needed those resources they would ask us, and we would send a
coordinator along with those resources anywhere within the
state.
Q.
still a deputy sheriff with the Maricopa County Sheriff's
In addition, we also did statewide requests for
If another agency
And although you were a detective at that time, you were
10
Office.
11
A.
That is correct.
12
Q.
Did there come a time when you were promoted?
13
A.
Yes, I did.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
The rank of sergeant.
16
Q.
And when did that occur?
17
A.
That occurred approximately July of 2000, I believe, or
18
1999.
19
Q.
20
anywhere?
21
A.
22
Patrol facility, which is in the northeast portion of Maricopa
And you were promoted to what rank?
09:24:06
And when you became a sergeant, were you assigned
09:24:23
DS
Okay.
09:23:58
IEN
Yes.
Upon promotion, I was assigned to the District 4
23
County.
24
Q.
And what did you do in District 4 as a sergeant?
25
A.
I was the midnight sergeant.
FR
09:23:44
I supervised deputy sheriffs,
09:24:34
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a squad with approximately seven to eight people.
Q.
And how long did you stay in that position?
A.
I was at that facility for approximately a month or two.
Q.
And that was at District 4?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I was transferred to the District 1 Patrol facility, which
is in the southeast portion of Maricopa County.
was living in Gilbert, so it was -- they were trying to get me
09:24:51
And from there, where did you go?
At the time I
10
closer to home at that point.
11
Q.
And what did you do at District 1?
12
A.
At District 1 I was a day shift sergeant, so again I
13
supervised patrol deputies; responded to their scenes; reviewed
14
their paperwork; took in any complaints.
15
the assistant district commander, the lieutenant, with any
16
specialized community related events, patrol watches, and those
17
type of things.
18
Q.
19
division or unit?
20
A.
Yes, I did.
21
Q.
Where did you go?
22
A.
I was transferred to at the time what was called the
Also was assistant to
IEN
23
Threats Management Unit.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
The Threats Management Unit handled any complaints or
FR
09:25:24
Now, from District 1 did you move to another
DS
Okay.
09:25:05
09:25:39
What is the Threats Management Unit?

09:25:48
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threats that may have been passed upon any employee of the
Sheriff's Office, along with potentially superior court judges
or other natures -- other specialized investigations as
directed by my lieutenant.
Q.
Management Unit?
A.
about six months after my arrival, and this was due to an
influx of computer-related crime.
Okay.
And how long did you stay with the Threats
The Threats Management Unit actually split, I believe,
With technology coming
10
on scene, they actually had -- wanted to initiate or develop a
11
computer crime unit, which I was assigned to as a sergeant.
12
Q.
13
of the computer crimes unit?
14
A.
15
on this new venture, because again, law enforcement was seeing
16
a large influx of technology being utilized as a vehicle to
17
commit crime.
18
asked myself, a commander, and I have one detective and a
19
forensic tech, or one that we turned into a computer forensic
20
tech, to develop the Computer Crimes Division.
21
develop that division; figure out what the best practices were;
22
look at how we were to staff it, resources, what have you.
Okay.
09:26:27
Did you have any special role with the establishment
IEN
DS
Yeah, I was kind of the founding sergeant as we developed
23
Q.
24
that mean?
25
A.
FR
09:26:11
09:26:49
So the Sheriff's Office responded to that and
So we had to
You just mentioned a term, "best practices."
09:27:15
What does
Basically, either in government, industry, or private
09:27:32
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sector, you want to look at the best practices.
standard?
job?
level that we can.
What is the
What is the most efficient, effective way to do your
And in our case, to serve the citizens to the highest
So we obviously don't want to go out and reinvent the
5
6
wheel.
i.e., in law enforcement, that is a standard or looked at as --
especially when you went to look at it as a response to the
public, are they giving them the best service?
A lot of times if there is something in the industry,
And then secondly, the litmus test of bringing it to
10
11
court.
12
fullest degree to go before a judge and jury and be able to
13
present that to get the adjudication we need for the victim?
14
Q.
15
unit.
16
the computer crimes unit?
17
A.
18
whole lot of technical background, so we reached out to other
19
agencies that already had established computer-related
20
investigations or crime units.
21
it was in the Silicon Valley, Sacramento PD, Los Angeles.
22
even reached back to some of the federal agencies in, you know,
Okay.
So let's look at the creation of the computer crimes
So take me through that.
How did you go about creating
09:28:29
IEN
DS
Well, we were kind of thrown together, I didn't have a
We reached out to -- a lot of
09:28:47
We
D.C. and Virginia, and the National White Collar Crime Center,
24
High-Tech Institute of Technology.
FR
09:28:08
Are we processing evidence and doing the case to the
23
25
09:27:49
And so we looked at -- or we soon realized there would
09:29:08
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be two sides to the house:
That there was actually going to be
an investigative component, which would be comprised of
detectives, that has the nexus of computer-related or
electronic evidence, or facilitated through electronic
evidence; and secondly, a computer forensic section, which
basically would be the section that processes any evidence
seized for an investigation that may hold that evidence that we
needed to forensically be able to process that, again, to be
able to bring it to court and verify the certification that it
10
was not touched, altered, and what have you.
11
Q.
And you did this as a sergeant?
12
A.
That is correct.
13
Q.
Did there come a time when you were promoted to lieutenant?
14
A.
Yes, there was.
15
Q.
16
A.
Approximately 2006; I believe around July of 2006.
17
Q.
And did you remain as a lieutenant in the computer crimes
18
unit?
19
A.
I did.
20
Q.
And how long did you stay with computer crimes?
21
A.
Approximately nine years total, from start to the time I
22
left.
Okay.
24
A.
Yes, I did.
25
Q.
How about the creation of the unit?
09:29:46
09:29:56
DS
IEN
Q.
FR
23
09:29:24
09:30:08
Did you find that work interesting?
How did you find that?
09:30:19
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A.
It was very challenging to, you know, definitely start, and
again, look for building something for sustainability to make
sure that once you left it continued to grow.
technology, it's ever-changing, so you have to stay ahead of
the curve.
know, a child molester, child pornography, and be able to
process that evidence, although not fun to have to do, but to
restore the rights and the dignity to the victim, it was very
satisfying.
And with
And to have successful cases, whether it be, you
10
Q.
So there came a time when you left that unit, though.
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
And when you did, where did you go?
13
A.
I was transferred back to patrol at Fountain Hills
14
District 7.
15
Q.
And who is that?
16
A.
That was Captain Kleinheinz.
17
Q.
And you're smiling.
18
A.
Yes, he is, sir.
19
Q.
Captain, how long did you stay in that position?
20
A.
I was there approximately six months, I believe.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
I was transferred to the District 2 Patrol facility, which
09:31:12
Is he in the courtroom today?
DS
IEN
09:30:56
Worked for a great captain there.
09:31:27
And from there where did you go?
23
is in the southwest portion of Maricopa County.
24
Q.
And there you did what?
25
A.
There I was a patrol lieutenant or assistant patrol
FR
09:30:43
09:31:42
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commander, so again we had district detectives and patrol
deputies and patrol sergeants.
areas of Maricopa County is District 2, which also houses two
contract areas: Gila Bend and Litchfield Park.
three.
Q.
did you say?
A.
year and a half.
One of the largest geographical
I'm sorry,
And at the time Goodyear had a small section as well.
Okay.
And you stayed there for how long did you say?
Or
I was approximately there for a little over a year, maybe a
10
Q.
Until you moved on?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
A.
I was assigned then to the Lake Patrol Division of the
14
Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.
15
Q.
What's the Lake Patrol Division?
16
A.
The Lake Patrol Division basically has -- provides law
17
enforcement services to all the recreational areas and that
18
encompass lakes in the wilderness area, as well as the river.
09:32:16
Where did you go?
for the Tonto National Forest.
21
the U.S. Forest Service that we provide law enforcement
22
services on basically the Salt system, everything from
IEN
DS
20
24
FR
25
09:32:24
Additionally, we are also the contract law enforcement
19
23
09:32:07
We have a contract or MOU with
09:32:44
Roosevelt Dam down through the Salt River.

On the other side we have the Cave Creek Ranger
District which we also contract with that has Bartlett and
09:33:06
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Horseshoe off of the Verde system.
And then to the far west we
have Lake Pleasant, which is part of the Central Arizona
Project, that we also encompass that.
Additionally, we have all the parks, the county parks
4
5
within -- we provide patrol services within Maricopa County.
And that includes anything from SanTan Park, up to Usery, over
to the Estrellas, the White Tanks.
We also do some specialized service with the fact
8
9
we're the field force unit for the Maricopa County Sheriff's
10
Office, any emergency, and we provide exercises and drills to
11
the Palo Verde nuclear plant, should there be such an
12
emergency.
13
may get called for an underwater search or recovery.
14
host or house the search and rescue division, or personnel that
15
are search and rescue coordinators.
09:33:42
We house the dive team, so throughout the state we

We also
09:34:04
And couple other things, we have the GOHS program,
16
17
which is the Governor's Office of Highway Safety, so we do the
18
DUI task force.
19
horses or our mounted officers.
20
Q.
21
mounted officer now?
22
A.
And we have the mounted unit, which is our
DS
So you actually get to use your certification and be a
09:34:20
IEN
Yes, I do.
23
Q.
24
assigned right now?
25
A.
FR
09:33:25
And when I say "now," let's skip ahead.
Where are you
I am assigned at the Lake Patrol Division of the Sheriff's
09:34:31
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Office.
Q.
Do you like it?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
How much do you enjoy Lake Patrol?
A.
Very much.
patrol; I enjoy being a deputy sheriff and working with the
staff that's out there and the recreational public, and hoping
to -- you know, our mission is to save lives out there.
of alcohol is involved in the activities, and we try
I enjoy it.
It's very -- it's an outdoor activity.
I enjoy
A lot
10
educational benefits and enforcement activities to curtail
11
that, and hopefully avoid fatalities.
12
Q.
13
Patrol?
14
A.
15
mainly of sworn deputy sheriffs.
16
Q.
And how long have you been back at Lake Patrol?
17
A.
Approximately two months.
18
Q.
And as captain of Lake Patrol, who do you report to?
19
A.
I report to Deputy Chief Joe Rodriguez.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
I'm sorry?
22
Q.
Do you have people who report to you?
09:35:02
And how many deputies do you have assigned to you at Lake
I have a staff of approximately 60, which is comprised
And do you have people who report to you?
DS
IEN
23
A.
24
directly.
25
Q.
FR
09:34:39
Yes, I do.
09:35:15
09:35:34
I have two lieutenants that report to me
And of the 60 under you, how many supervisors do you have?
09:35:45
A.
and two lieutenants.
Q.
And does that keep a certain ratio?
A.
Yes.
reporting to one single supervisor.
Q.
established?
A.
order issued by Judge Snow.
I have approximately, at this point in time, 14 sergeants
We're well under the 1-to-12 ratio and everybody
09:36:03
And do you know the source or why the 1-to-12 ratio was
Yes, I do.
Obviously, the October 2nd, 2013, Melendres
10
Q.
11
going to Lake Patrol was what?
12
A.
13
Implementation Division, which is now called the Court
14
Implementation Division.
15
Q.
16
sergeant with -- or of the computer crimes unit.
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
Now, before going back to your current position at Lake
19
Patrol, were you assigned to create another division?
20
A.
Yes, I was.
21
Q.
And what was that?
22
A.
That would be the Court Compliance and Implementation
So let's now skip back.
The position that you held before
09:36:20
I was assigned to originally the Court Compliance and
Now, you explained to us that you were a founding
IEN
DS
Okay.
I was part of a team.
23
Division.
24
Q.
25
Implementation Division is.
FR
4093
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09:36:39
09:37:01
And explain to me what the Court Compliance and

09:37:14
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A.
Basically, it is created out of the, again, October 2nd,
2013 order that part of the reform is that the Sheriff's Office
would create this division, and that division would then be
responsible to provide liaisonship to the monitor, the
plaintiffs' counsel, the Court, and help with reform of the
Sheriff's Office, either by assigning, helping coordinate, and
maintaining status on that.
Additionally, we are to provide documentation as
8
9
ordered by or requested by plaintiffs' counsel, the monitor,
10
and/or the Court, and help coordinate and provide the quarterly
11
reporting, along with the annual assessments relative to patrol
12
operations and again, compliance, implementation, compliance,
13
and reform efforts that the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office
14
was conducting.
15
Q.
16
unit?
17
A.
Approximately mid-October of 2013.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
A.
No, I was not.
20
Q.
Was there anybody else helping you out?
21
A.
At the time, Captain Larry Farnsworth was already assigned
22
to this unit, and Sergeant Chris Dowell, who was also assigned
And when were you assigned the task to create this
IEN
09:37:59
09:38:22
Were you alone in creating this unit?
DS
Okay.
23
with me at Lake Patrol, were assigned to Court Compliance and
24
25
Q.
FR
09:37:41
And this was in October of 2013?
09:38:33
09:38:52
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A.
That is correct.
Q.
Okay.
a lieutenant.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
And you stayed for how long at CCID?
A.
Just under two years.
Q.
Okay.
A.
That has been renamed, Court Compliance and Implementation
Division was renamed to CID, the Court Implementation Division,
10
You were there, though, at the beginning of CCID as
Now, I hear a term, "CID."
09:39:06
What is CID?
after approximately a year in existence.
09:39:32
The reason behind that was, number one, the Sheriff's
11
12
Office already had a Compliance Division that's responsible for
13
the legal liaison portion of the Sheriff's Office and
14
disciplinary measures after it passes through PSB.
15
was some confusion, sometimes, within the agency of mail
16
routing or telephone calls.
So there
And secondly, the Sheriff's Office had also created
17
18
the Bureau of Internal Oversight, which was more of the
19
compliance end by internal audits and inspections.
20
focus more on the implementation efforts and the status of
21
those implementation efforts, so we shortened the name.
22
Q.
DS
So we would
09:40:13
IEN
When you talk about "implementation efforts," what are you
23
referring to?
24
A.
25
court order -- or, really, beyond that -- any court order or
FR
09:39:54
Referring to on implementation?
Basically, taking the

09:40:32
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best practices situation for the Sheriff's Office and making
sure that the requirements are being met, especially with the
October 2nd, 2013 court order; and obviously, any other issues
or court orders that were issued to the office and making sure
that we provided distribution of office-wide communication on
those reforms, or what was required, or if we were enjoined
from doing something.
And secondly, making sure that we continued to monitor
8
9
the status of that reform and compliance efforts that were
10
being put forth, because we did have to do quarterly reporting
11
and annual reporting as well.
12
Q.
13
about implementing it?
14
A.
15
I think one of the biggest things with the court order was
16
traffic stop data.
17
Office was not good with recordkeeping or collecting traffic
18
stop data.
19
order addresses that.
Yes, there are several of them.
An example of reform, and
I think we all know that today, and obviously the
One of the reforms that was required of the court
order was to collect traffic stop data, and not only to collect
22
it, but to collect it electronically.
IEN
09:41:32
You know, it -- historically, the Sheriff's
21
09:41:49
So we helped put a
23
system in place, with other members of the Sheriff's Office, to
24
build what is called now the TraCS system, which is a software
25
program that collects traffic stop data, gives us the ability
FR
09:41:16
Could you give me an example of a reform, and how CID went
DS
20
09:40:57
09:42:13
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to analyze that data; and secondly, gives the officer in the
field the ability to have at their fingertips on an MDC -- or
mobile data computer, terminal -- a program that will do
E-ticketing, crash reports, tow reports, vehicle contact forms,
citations, warnings, and incidental contacts.
that, but help solidify it or build a bridge with being able to
print a receipt for the driver, which was also a requirement of
the order.
And not only do
So with that is actually the system, and then the
9
10
other part of reform is building a policy that involves traffic
11
stop procedures, which we worked with the policy unit; and
12
secondly, delivering training, so that everybody does it in a
13
standardized manner, which is currently being done.
14
Q.
15
is used?
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
How does CID go about doing that?
18
A.
At this point in time we have the Bureau of Internal
19
Oversight that does compliance checks through inspections and
20
audits.
21
Monitoring Team that basically ask for monthly data.
22
one of the requests it's monthly traffic stop data.
09:42:55
Now, is CID responsible to ensure that something like TraCS
09:43:19
IEN
DS
So not only does CID do it, CID gets requests by the
09:43:32
And on
So we
23
provide them the list of traffic stop data, and will randomly
24
select traffic stops to audit and inspect to look at compliance
25
measures.
FR
09:42:36
09:43:58
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On the other side of the coin, the Bureau of Internal
1
2
Oversight for the Sheriff's Office does the same.
They may do
the same sample, a different sample, or all.
point, what they do is they look for any deficiencies.
between CID, the Bureau of Internal Oversight, and the
Monitoring Team, if any deficiencies are noted, they are
addressed through the chain of command down to the violator,
let's utilize that term, within the agency.
be -- has to take place to make sure that they address those
And at that
So
09:44:14
And reform has to
10
deficiencies so it doesn't happen again.
11
Q.
Now, you stated a few minutes ago you loved Lake Patrol.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Did you love it the first time around?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
CID, what was your reaction?
17
A.
18
knowledge of everything that was going to be before us.
19
know, it certainly was a huge undertaking, so maybe a little
20
apprehensive at first, because we want to do it the right way.
21
A lot of things are riding on the agency with the fact that
22
this is a federal court order.
24
FR
25
When you were tapped to create CCID, which is now
DS
Bewilderment.
IEN
23
09:44:39
09:44:54
Again, I don't think I had a good grasp or

You
09:45:18
We better do it right, and we
better do it right the first time.

And secondly, to ensure sustainability that this ever
evolves forward, that we can achieve those goals and achieve
09:45:36
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the reform that is required by the court order.
additionally, not only this court order, but the other matters
that have been presented to the Sheriff's Office to make sure
we're doing everything we can to adhere to those requirements.
Q.
create CCID?
A.
Trombi.
Q.
Okay.
And then
Well, first of all, who tapped you to come and
The telephone call I received was from Deputy Chief David
Did anybody else have a part in selecting you to create
10
CCID?
11
A.
12
and Chief Deputy Jerry Sheridan were also involved in that
13
selection process.
14
Q.
Did anybody tell you why you were asked to do it?
15
A.
Not directly, no, just that they had the faith that I could
16
hopefully do a good job.
17
Q.
18
"CID," because we know that CCID turned into CID.
19
How long did you stay with CID?
Yes.
09:46:14
I was later notified that Captain Larry Farnsworth
09:46:29
And how long did you stay with -- let's just use the term
A.
Just under two years.
21
Q.
When CID began, were you at the helm?
22
A.
No, it was Captain Larry Farnsworth.
IEN
DS
20
23
Q.
And how long did Captain Farnsworth stay in command of CID?
24
A.
Just short of a year, I believe.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
09:45:55
And then was he transferred elsewhere?
09:46:45
09:47:04
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A.
Yes, he was.
Q.
And who took control of or command of CID?
A.
I did.
Q.
Did you begin your command -- well, what rank did you begin
your command of CID in?
A.
For a short stint as a lieutenant.
Q.
And then you were promoted?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
So you were the captain over CID for how long?
10
A.
For just -- just about a year, a little over a year.
11
Q.
Now, we kind of skipped around a little bit there, but I
12
want to go to what you did to create, what you did along with
13
Captain Farnsworth and Sergeant Dowell to create CID.
09:47:29
Well, when you were asked to create CID, were you
14
15
provided any blueprint?
16
A.
No, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
with the Sheriff's Office for approximately 25 years -- was
19
there any other type of unit similar to what you were about to
20
create when you were asked to?
21
A.
22
under consent decree or other court orders that had
DS
IEN
Yes.
09:47:57
So before the creation of CID -- I mean, you've been
09:48:18
There were other agencies that had -- or that were
23
similar type units.
24
Q.
But not a centralized one?
25
A.
Not that I'm aware of.
FR
09:47:19
09:48:34
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Q.
Okay.
to some task that you had in the past?
A.
something from scratch, and certainly a huge undertaking and an
honor to be able to do so, but there was a lot of work to be
done to lay the foundation of what we were going to do, what we
were going to embark on.
Q.
step that you took in creating CID?
Yes.
So did you find something similar about creating CID
This was kind of my second go-round to start
What's the first thing that you did, you know, the first
A.
My first step was -- or our first step was to get a
11
thorough understanding of the October 2nd, 2013 court order,
12
and make sure that we understood it; make sure that we could
13
also start to dissect the areas within the office that would
14
need to start the reform, and the responsive areas that
15
operationally would need to have the input to do so.
16
Q.
How did you go about making sure you understood the order?
17
A.
We started off with meeting with legal counsel for the
18
Sheriff's Office so that, you know, we could have a good
19
understanding from the legal side; but secondly, we kind of
20
sequestered ourselves in a room for a couple of days and
21
literally went line by -- word by word, line by line, through
22
the order, and reread it to make sure that we understood it,
IEN
DS
10
23
and how it was going to integrate with what needed to happen or
24
what steps needed to take place.
25
Q.
FR
09:48:58
So the beginning of CID, how many -- how many people
09:49:15
09:49:36
09:49:59
09:50:19
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comprised CID?
A.
Sergeant Dowell and I were assigned there, so three when I
arrived.
Q.
And that one was who?
A.
Captain Larry Farnsworth.
Q.
So after locking yourself in a room and trying to
understand what the order entailed, what did you do next?
A.
It was three in the very -- well, it was one before
09:50:35
Next, as we started to delineate how it's going to affect,
10
let's just say, one area of patrol, or policy, or the Internal
11
Affairs Bureau, which is now PSB, Professional Standards
12
Bureau.
13
areas.
So we started to break that down to the responsive
Secondly, we did a lot of research on other consent
14
15
decrees and orders that were affecting law enforcement
16
agencies, and we actually reached out, Oakland PD, Las Vegas
17
Metro PD that was not under a consent decree but actually had
18
taken proactive measures to avoid that.
19
the reporting that was being done by Detroit, New Orleans, and
20
a few others, Los Angeles County, L.A. County, and so -- so we
21
kind of took a culmination of at least where to begin, because
22
we hadn't faced, or at least us from the enforcement side
DS
IEN
09:51:20
We looked at some of
23
hadn't faced this type of situation.
24
that we reached out and got some input so we were able to go
25
down the right road and avoid the potholes.
FR
09:50:59
09:51:44
So we wanted to make sure
09:52:07
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Q.
So when did you first reach out to another agency?
A.
I believe it was around November-December of 2013.
Q.
And you mentioned, was it LA Police Department?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Oakland?
A.
Correct.
Q.
What other agency did you mention that I've already
forgotten?
A.
Detroit.
10
Q.
Is there another -- is there another agency that you
11
actually consulted with?
12
A.
13
most of the reporting relative to consent decrees were also
14
available online, so we were able to pull up New Jersey, New
15
Orleans, and I believe there was one or two other.
16
there was a place in Maryland that had a consent decree as
17
well.
18
Q.
19
consent decree.
20
A.
Correct.
21
Q.
So why did you look to agencies that may have been under
22
consent decrees?
09:52:26
Members had reached out to Detroit as well.
Not necessarily over the phone or in person, but again,
I think
09:52:57
And although this order -- well, this order wasn't a
09:53:08
DS
IEN
23
A.
24
was.
25
an agency and implementation of compliance efforts.
FR
09:52:39
Basically, it was a similar framework as the court order

Basically, a consent decree also requests reform within
The
09:53:24
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difference is it's consented to either by the agency and/or
state-city government, and ours was a court order that was
ordered on the office to be able to comprise this reform, or
require this reform.
Q.
Now, these consent decrees that -- well, strike that.
These agencies within -- with which you consulted,
6
7
these other departments that were in consent decrees, it was
the department, and was there another party to the -- to the
decree?
10
A.
Yes, typically --
11
Q.
Who was that?
12
A.
Typically, it's American Civil Liberties Union.
13
you know, there's consent decrees for other -- I think the
14
health industry there was one out there reference somebody
15
alleging or somebody filing suit against that.
16
one that we saw.
17
Q.
So you also met with Las Vegas Metro?
18
A.
That is correct.
19
Q.
Is that Las Vegas Metro Police Department?
20
A.
That is correct.
21
Q.
And when I say "meet with them," did you actually
22
physically go there?
09:54:00
I've seen,
DOJ was another
DS
IEN
09:54:17
That was obviously with Las Vegas Metro.
23
A.
Yes, we did.
24
Q.
And why did you do that?
25
A.
Again, reaching out to agencies to kind of get some idea of
FR
09:53:43
09:54:33
09:54:44
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what we should be doing to move forward.
It appeared to us
that Las Vegas Metro had some problems in the past where the
DOJ was actually looking to investigate Las Vegas Metro PD for
their use of force issues, high rate of shootings, and a few
other matters.
training their officers in less lethal de-escalation; they had
a bureau of Internal oversight, I don't know if that's actually
how they termed it, but an internal oversight unit, shooting
review boards, and a few other things.
They had a very well-patterned program to start
So we thought, since they were successful with what
10
11
they had going, we would reach out to them and actually go
12
visit and look at some of their training, look at some of their
13
units that are set up for the internal reform and the internal
14
oversight and auditing of it.
15
Q.
Did Las Vegas Metro have something akin to a CID?
16
A.
Theirs was more under the Bureau of Internal Oversight.
17
They didn't because, again, they did not physically have a
18
consent decree or court order.
19
was the one that did audits and inspections, did reporting for
20
transparency via a website, just kind of looked at, you know,
21
the changes that were ever evolving in the agency.
22
Q.
09:55:29
09:55:47
DS
Their internal oversight unit
09:56:07
IEN
Did you find personnel at -- in Las Vegas helpful?
23
A.
Very helpful.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Again, they were the ones that offered to have us come up
FR
09:55:07
And how so?

09:56:25
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and literally spend a week with them.
Took us to their
training facility, introduced us to their sheriff, introduced
us to their staff and deputy chief that's involved in their
internal oversight, so we could ask the questions of:
this work?
return on investment for the agency and for the public?
How do you go about setting this up?
How does
What is the
Again, their biggest issue was use of force and
7
8
de-escalation measures.
good level where they were able to start utilizing
They actually took training to a very
10
de-escalation techniques and use of force -- de-escalation of
11
use-of-force issues.
12
able to bring that back --
13
Q.
And --
14
A.
-- and --
15
Q.
Oh, I'm sorry.
09:57:08
And when we saw that pattern, we were
Go ahead.
09:57:19
Who all from MCSO went up to visit Las Vegas?
16
A.
We had members of -- that had just started the Early
18
Intervention Unit go up with us.
19
the same software program we were using for the early
20
intervention system, so we were able to glean some of that off
21
of that.
22
Intervention Unit went.
IEN
DS
17
That's also they were using
09:57:40
So CID members and members from the Early
23
Q.
Okay.
24
A.
Yes, I did.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
09:56:47
Did you go?
Captain Farnsworth?
09:57:51
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A.
No, he did not.
Q.
Sergeant Dowell?
A.
Yes, he did.
Q.
About how many people in total went to Las Vegas Metro?
A.
Approximately six people.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Actually, a -- two of our deputy chiefs went to Oakland.
Q.
Okay.
Oakland?
Did you also go to Oakland?
And was there a particular purpose in going to
10
A.
11
body camera policy and unit, as we were embarking upon
12
implementing that.
13
the other ones that went to -- it was right after or right
14
before the Bureau of Internal Oversight was created, so he went
15
to, you know, discuss, again, things that he could be looking
16
at for inspection or auditing purposes.
17
Q.
Yes, it was twofold.
The main purpose was to look at their
09:58:18
And secondly, Chief Bill Knight was one of
09:58:42
We'll get back to the Bureau of Internal Oversight, or BIO.

Did anyone outside of MCSO suggest that you visit
18
Oakland?
20
A.
Yes, they did.
21
Q.
Who?
22
A.
The Monitoring Team.
IEN
DS
19
23
Q.
Anyone in particular, or any ones in particular?
24
A.
Yes, I recall Chief Warshaw and Commander Girvin.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
09:58:00
Good advice?
09:58:58
09:59:11
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A.
Absolutely.
Q.
Was it useful?
A.
Yes, it was.
Q.
Okay.
Oakland PD in implementing your body camera?
A.
one was our technology chief and the other one was our Bureau
of Internal Oversight chief, who actually was one of the
project coordinators for the body camera policy and what have
Yes.
Did you use the information that you received from
I believe both the bureau chiefs utilized that, since
10
you.
11
Q.
12
of 2013?
13
A.
No, it did not.
14
Q.
Okay.
09:59:39
Okay.
But going to Oakland, that didn't happen in the fall
How come -- well, withdrawn.
When did you begin working with the Monitor Team
15
16
regarding the establishment of CCID?
17
A.
18
CCID.
19
of February or March of 2014.
20
Q.
So before that time you were on your own, so to speak?
21
A.
So to speak, yes.
22
Q.
Okay.
09:59:55
The Monitoring Team was not in place when we established
IEN
DS
They did not come on board until approximately the end
10:00:18
Now, aside from going outside to contact other
23
agencies to gain information, did you look internally to MCSO?
24
A.
Yes, we did.
25
Q.
What did you do in that regard?
FR
09:59:22
10:00:39
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A.
Again, once we looked at the areas that would be affected
by the reform, or would have to start to put the operational
measures, whether they be new policies or procedures, in place,
we needed to look to the bureau chiefs or anybody that they
elected in their staff to help bridge that gap of:
the order requires, and basically CID's telling you this is
what needs to be done.
them to come up with a procedure that fits and is everlasting
with the reform that's needed.
Here's what
But operationally it was incumbent upon
So we would reach out and
10
continue to ride the status on making those reforms.
11
Q.
12
rank, was there any particular reason why you would sit down
13
with the bureau chiefs to discuss how do create CID?
14
A.
15
bureau, they are the highest ranking official and can have the
16
accountability and authority to make sure that it is carried
17
out.
18
Q.
19
anybody else at MCSO with whom you consulted?
20
A.
21
made sure he was aware that we needed his support and blessing
22
as we were moving forward to be able to carry out the mission
10:01:27
So aside from just going to a bureau chief, aside from the
Because ultimately, in the chain of command within that
10:01:50
So aside from speaking with the bureau chiefs, is there
We reported to the chief deputy, and so we obviously
IEN
DS
Yes.
23
that needed to be done.
24
Q.
25
in the creation of CID?
FR
10:01:04
10:02:07
Did the chief deputy -- well, was he involved at any level

10:02:31
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A.
Again, before my arrival I assume so, but I can't speak for
what I don't know before I got there.
there he was.
Q.
stages of CID did you meet with the chief deputy?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And what would you meet with him about?
A.
Basically to let him know the status.
to start preparing foundationally.
Okay.
But yes, after I got
And after you got there, during the developmental
We would also have
A lot of the reform
10
required equipment purchase, whether it be software, additional
11
staffing for the supervisor ratio.
12
had an understanding of what it was going to take, that we
13
would need to go to the Board of Supervisors, because
14
ultimately, financially, they're the ones that would approve
15
that for us to purchase and then implement that.
16
Q.
17
meet with Chief Deputy Sheridan?
18
A.
19
stage.
20
took over, Captain Farnsworth had weekly or bimonthly meetings
21
with the chief deputy that I carried on once I was put in
22
command.
24
FR
25
So we had to ensure that he
10:03:26
Again, Captain Farnsworth was in command in the initial

I can't say for sure.
Once I took over, or before I
DS
Q.
10:03:04
And during this developmental stage, how often would you
IEN
23
10:02:48
10:03:48
Now, you said -- well, withdrawn.

Once you had established CID, were there regular
meetings of CID personnel?
10:04:22
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A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
From the internal mechanism of CID we would -- we would
discuss things amongst our staff in either development of
putting together the quarterly reports or talking about the
reform with policy, making sure that we're communicating and
we're on top of especially the deadlines in the very beginning,
because a lot of the reform, a lot of it had to happen within
180 days.
Who all was included in those types of meetings?
So we had a very fast track to make sure that people
10
were aware of what needed to be done, and that we were getting,
11
hopefully, the results back for the status of that.
10:05:03
One of the biggest problems we encountered right off
12
13
the git-go was the fact that, again, the office was not good
14
about documentation and recordkeeping.
15
reform in the status and compliance measures with that, we
16
needed the proof, the documents to be able to do so.
17
were -- basically, we're still in handwritten reports at this
18
day and age, so a lot of it was cumbersome to make sure we were
19
moving along.
20
Q.
21
cumbersome.
22
MCSO?
So to start showing the
DS
You said that a couple times about the recordkeeping being
IEN
10:05:25
Things
10:05:47
Have you done anything to address that at the
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
And what is that?
25
A.
As these systems go online -- I mean, there's a couple
FR
10:04:42
10:05:57
4112
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things we've done to address it -- just before this order, the
Sheriff's Office bought a new records management system that
they're still continuing to build and work on.
But additionally, with TraCS, which is the traffic --
4
5
software for the traffic data, with IAPro and Blue Team, which
is the behavioral checking, things are now creating electronic
records that we're able to go back and now be able to do
reporting on, or pull that document easily.
is that reports -- actually, handwritten departmental reports
The problem being
10
or incident reports -- are still archived in our records
11
section.
13
things was, and this always comes to mind, the 1-to-12 ratio of
14
supervisors to deputies; and, secondly, that everybody's
15
reporting to one clearly identified supervisor with shift
16
rosters, something as simple and basic as shift rosters.
10:07:00
When we embarked on the fact that we finally had
17
enough supervisors in place, then we went to start inspecting
19
and auditing this and telling the monitor, Hey, we've got the
20
people in place.
How can we prove it?
21
the easiest way.
So when we started looking, there were
22
places, districts that were not keeping shift rosters or doing
IEN
DS
18
Well, shift rosters is
23
shift rosters, and even if they did, they weren't standardized.
24
So one of the projects was a standardized shift roster
FR
10:06:40
So we came up with procedures, one of the biggest
12
25
10:06:17
to capture that information so that we internally can inspect
10:07:21
10:07:40
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it from Bureau of Internal Oversight; and secondly, the monitor
can see that that is occurring.
we can address, so that we hopefully don't have that situation
in the future.
Q.
Farnsworth, and Sergeant Dowell?
A.
involved in this.
order out.
And if there's a deficiency,
So as CID progressed, did it go beyond you, Captain
Absolutely.
10:07:58
The whole agency was involved, or had to be
This was not a small team that can carry the
It needed the complete and utter joining of every
10
person within the agency to be able to move forward.
11
Q.
And you were there for two years.
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
Have you seen that, the joining of the agency to move
14
forward?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Tell me some examples.
17
A.
Well, again, we had to reach out to -- just take Patrol,
18
for example.
19
came about, they needed to know how they would operate.
20
there was a lot of reform, but we -- right in the very
21
beginning we didn't have the policies out; we didn't have the
22
training.
10:08:28
When I was there --
10:08:38
The patrol districts, at first when the order
IEN
DS
Again,
They had a document in front of them and they didn't
23
want to violate it, but they needed to know:
24
this and carry out my duties as either a patrol supervisor,
25
patrol lieutenant, or patrol captain?
FR
10:08:59
How do I address
10:09:17
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So we had to sit down with them and have briefings and
1
2
talk about:
This is coming.
Traffic stop data will need to be
collected.
the meantime we had a deadline date to capture it manually.
we had to create vehicle contact forms.
And when that system's up and running, and even in
So
10:09:40
So just because we create it and throw it out there,
6
7
they may not be the best ones operationally.
buy-in.
people to talk about printing forms.
We needed their
We also needed to get with, you know, our finance
So we had to get them
10
aboard.
11
Sheriff's Office so they could order the forms and print the
12
forms.
13
time, and everybody has kind of a hand in the game to be able
14
to move forward so that we could be successful with it.
15
Q.
16
forward, what kind of response did you get?
17
A.
18
done.
19
Q.
They knew what had to be done?
20
A.
They knew that the reform had to be done.
21
the court order needed to be carried out.
They knew that
MR. YOUNG:
Objection, Your Honor, foundation.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
24
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
25
Q.
FR
10:10:19
They were professional with me, and they knew it had to be
DS
23
10:09:58
So there's a lot of different gears moving at the same
And as you reached out to different people in MCSO to move
IEN
22
We had to get with our supply area within the
Let me get back just for a second to CID.
10:10:36
10:10:48
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How many people are in CID now?
1
2
A.
Approximately 11.
Q.
How long did it take to get from three to 11?
A.
Approximately six to nine months.
Q.
Do you think, or do you know, to your knowledge, whether
CID will continue to expand in terms of numbers of personnel?
7
8
Objection, foundation.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Well --
MR. POPOLIZIO:
10
THE COURT:
11
12
MR. YOUNG:
I asked --
10:11:28
-- he asked him if he knew, so I'll allow
him to say if he knows.
I'll ask you to answer yes or no, do you know.
13
THE WITNESS:
14
Yes.
15
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
Q.
And how do you know that?
17
A.
There were discussions prior to my departure about adding
18
additional staffing, especially with other orders that
19
potentially would have additional reform to them.
20
Q.
21
necessary for CID?
22
A.
DS
You mentioned a few moments ago that there was funding
10:11:38
10:11:51
IEN
Yes.
23
Q.
24
necessary funding?
25
A.
FR
10:11:15
How did you go about, or did you go about getting the
We met with the chief financial officer, who at the time
10:12:03
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was Chief Scott Freeman, to discuss the different software
programs, the equipment, and the resources needed; anything
from the additional sergeant staffing to staffing a unit called
the Court Implementation Division, staffing a unit called the
Bureau of Internal Oversight -- well, that was down the road,
I'm sorry, preempted -- the Early Intervention Unit, and the
Internal Affairs Division needed to be staffed more
appropriately because of the reform with the complaint
handling.
10
Q.
So did Chief Freeman -- what did Chief Freeman do?
11
A.
He basically worked with the court implementation unit to
12
identify and clearly define in the order where these reforms
13
needed to be done for justification to go to the Board of
14
Supervisors, or preparation to the Board of Supervisors.
15
Q.
16
regard to your request for funding?
17
A.
I did not.
18
Q.
Did you receive any push-back from anyone at MCSO with
19
regard to your request for funding of CID?
20
A.
Not personally, no.
21
Q.
Do you know if anybody pushed back with regard to funding?
22
A.
IEN
DS
Did you receive any push-back from Chief Freeman with
Q.
24
of Supervisors?
25
A.
FR
23
Okay.
10:12:27
10:12:49
10:13:07
10:13:21
And then you said something about going to the Board
Yes, sir.
10:13:33
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Q.
And do you know why that's the case, that someone from MCSO
would have to go to the Board of Supervisors?
A.
funding, we have to establish the reasoning and justification
behind it.
Q.
Do you know if the Board approved funding for CID?
A.
Yes, they did.
Q.
A.
That occurred approximately I believe the first part of
Because it's for our agency, and in order to get that
10:13:47
10
January 2014.
11
Q.
10:14:00
Just one moment.
Don't want to repeat things, so...
Aside from the beginning when you were reaching out to
12
13
law enforcement agencies for information so that you can
14
establish CID, have you continued to consult with other
15
agencies?
16
A.
17
office, maybe.
18
Monitoring Team was in place, and through feedback of how we
19
were set up as far as the composite of resources and, you know,
20
we developed an operational manual for the division, and
21
obviously that had to be approved by the monitor and
22
plaintiffs' counsel to review and make sure that we're doing
10:14:43
Again, components within the
IEN
DS
Again, once we were established and once the
everything we needed to do to accomplish our task within this.
24
And so at that point it's maybe shifted to other areas within
25
the office.
FR
23
I don't know and can't say that training or
10:15:09
10:15:28
somebody does.
Q.
continue to meet with any upper command staff?
A.
Yes, we did.
Q.
With whom would you meet?
Okay.
6
7
"you."
Now, once CID's well underway, did members of CID
Objection, foundation, and ambiguous as to
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
10
10:15:50
MR. YOUNG:
MR. POPOLIZIO:
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You can answer.
So we would have -- again, Captain
Farnsworth was previous to my command.
12
prior to my taking over, bimonthly meetings with the chief
13
deputy and all of the enforcement bureau chiefs.
14
discuss status issues relative to the order, any issues that
15
the monitors or plaintiffs' counsel had addressed, either in a
16
site visit or a quarterly report; current production, document
17
production; and anything else relative to the movement and
18
reform, as far as it goes, with making sure we got things in
19
place.
20
Q.
Now, you left CID about two and a half months ago?
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
Okay.
IEN
DS
11
He had established,
So we would
10:16:25
10:16:45
Do you know who is at the command of CID now?
23
A.
Yes, I do.
24
Q.
Who?
25
A.
Captain Fred Aldorasi.
FR
10:16:00
10:16:58
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Q.
Okay.
How long have you known Captain Aldorasi?
A.
Probably most of my career, in some form or fashion.
Q.
Now, since you left CID have you turned your back on that
unit?
A.
No, I have not.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I have a vested interest in this agency and the people in
this agency, and this -- I don't think anybody sitting in my
seat for the past two years has the full encompassing knowledge
10:17:18
And why is that?
10
of everything that has -- that we've accomplished to this
11
point, and everything that we want to do to move forward.
10:17:34
This is something that doesn't happen overnight, and
12
13
there's, again, a lot of mechanical things that have to happen
14
within the agency.
15
truly, even at 25 years, probably have another seven years left
16
in the agency, and I want to retire knowing that the agency is
17
on the right track, and that things are being done in the
18
correct manner, and that we move forward.
19
Q.
20
place --
THE COURT:
23
10:18:15
Can I interrupt for a second?
CID specifically, or are you talking about the MCSO?
24
THE WITNESS:
25
THE COURT:
FR
10:17:55
When you use the term "agency," are you talking about
IEN
22
Now, before you left CID and Captain Aldorasi took your
DS
21
So I'm committed to the success of that.
The MCSO, sir.
Thank you.
10:18:25
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I'm sorry.
I just wasn't clear.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
No problem, Your Honor.
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
Q.
there some sort of a transition from you to him?
A.
Yes, there was.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I believe both of us knew about the transfer one or two
weeks before transfer, which entailed a couple of meetings, two
Before you left and were replaced by Captain Aldorasi, was
Could you tell me about that.
10
or three, in person with Captain Aldorasi, to go over the
11
duties I basically provided him.
12
had an approved and in place operational manual for the Court
13
14
drive, a computer drive, within the Sheriff's Office so that
15
all documents are there.
10:18:54
There was at that point we
Our document production is on a
10:19:21
I referred him to the quarterly reporting, which the
16
last quarterly report that the MCSO actually drafted and filed,
18
as well as the annual reporting, was drafted while I was still
19
in place for filing just as the transition was taking place.
20
So I wanted to make sure he was up to speed.
21
number -- day, night, and e-mail -- and I'm pretty religious
22
about checking my e-mail and my phone.
IEN
DS
17
23
Q.
24
Aldorasi?
25
A.
FR
10:18:37
Okay.
He had my phone
10:19:39
Have you made yourself available to Captain
Yes, I have.
10:19:55
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Q.
Has he reached out to you at all?
A.
Yes, he has.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I would say four or five occasions.
Q.
Are you going to continue to make yourself available to
him?
A.
Absolutely.
Q.
Okay.
behind who worked under you.
On how many occasions?
Now, I know you left, so you left members in CID
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
Could you tell me who you left behind, and about how much
12
experience they have with CID?
13
A.
14
lieutenant, was left in place.
15
approximately December of 2013, which was just a couple of
16
months after myself and Sergeant Dowell were assigned there.
10:20:21
At the time, Sergeant Ben Armer, who was promoted to

He has been there since
10:20:38
The two other sergeants, I believe, had been there
17
approximately a year.
And the management analyst that is in
19
position had been there for about a year as well.
20
Q.
Have any of them reached out to you at all?
21
A.
Yes, Lieutenant Ben Armer has.
22
Q.
And about what issues?
IEN
DS
18
23
A.
24
Lieutenant Molina and I did when we were there.
25
Q.
FR
10:20:06
10:21:03
Basically, saying that he didn't realize how much
Okay.
But do you have confidence in Lieutenant Armer?
10:21:22
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A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Are you comfortable with the team that's in CID?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Again, knowing Captain Aldorasi, he is, again, very task
oriented.
Office and the team that he leads.
He takes pride in the Maricopa County Sheriff's
because he had the historical knowledge of not only with the
10
Melendres case, but the DOJ investigation in that matter, so he
11
had a working knowledge of the procedure and wanted to see some
12
things through as he continued to stay in place.

MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
14
THE COURT:
Your Honor, did you need to get my
No.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
THE COURT:
17
10:22:27
Oh.
I will tell you, since we're interrupted,
I'm looking to break in about 10 minutes, so -- for the
19
morning, if you just want to work towards -- or if you find a
20
good place.
DS
18
THE COURT:
23
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
25
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
Other than that, I didn't intend anything.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
24
FR
10:22:35
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
22
10:22:07
attention?
15
21
10:21:43
Lieutenant Ben Armer also wanted to stay in place
8
9
And why do you say that?
Okay.
You mentioned the DOJ case?
10:22:43
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A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
For the Melendres October 2nd, 2013 order.
Q.
Has CID expanded beyond Melendres?
A.
Do we have other duties?
Q.
Okay.
A.
Other duties are basically dissemination of any court order
on the Sheriff's Office or involving the Sheriff's Office;
also, discussing compliance and reform measures agency-wide,
10
Let me ask you:
CID was created for what case?
Yes.
10:22:59
What are those other duties?
making sure that communication happens.
10:23:20
So as other matters continued forth, whether it be
11
12
document production or being enjoined from behavior or
13
enforcement activity, we would make sure that's disseminated,
14
and that that reform was happening agency-wide.
15
Puente matter and the DOJ investigation, United States versus
16
Arpaio.
17
Q.
18
were disseminated.
19
A.
Correct.
20
Q.
How would CID, or how does CID go about doing that?
21
A.
Generally, we would be issued an order either from the
22
Court, or our legal counsel would provide that to us.
So we had the
IEN
DS
You said dissemination of orders, make sure that orders
10:23:52
We put a
23
Briefing Board out about the procedure, I believe in December
24
of 2014, to basically say that the Court Implementation
25
Division would receive this and send this to all bureau chiefs,
FR
10:23:41
10:24:17
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including the chief deputy and the sheriff, along with any
commanders that directly reported to Chief Sheridan, and for
their dissemination to their staff.
Q.
So now you were with CID for two years, right?
A.
Just about, yes.
Q.
And you ran that.
unit.
A.
For approximately a year, yes.
Q.
Okay.
10:24:41
You ran that CID, right?
You ran the
And you've just talked about this expansion into
10
other cases.
Do you -- well, is CID here to stay at MCSO?
11
A.
12
the order through.
13
the items under the orders, and builds compliance and the need
14
for, necessarily, a court implementation unit may not need to
15
be there.
16
Bureau of Internal Oversight, which is built to be the internal
17
oversight for the agency and do those audits and inspections
18
and document production necessary.
19
Q.
20
legal affairs of MCSO?
21
A.
Yes, the Compliance Division of the Sheriff's Office.
22
Q.
Okay.
For -- for now, yes; obviously, to make sure that we see
The duties would then probably be folded into the
IEN
10:25:31
Are there any other departments at MCSO that handle
DS
Okay.
As the agency builds compliance, implements
10:25:50
And does that incorporate the legal liaison office?
23
A.
Yes, it does.
24
Q.
Now, Captain Skinner, once you became the captain over CID,
25
did you regularly meet with Sheriff Arpaio?
FR
10:24:56
10:26:16
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A.
Every now and then, sir.
Q.
And when you met with him, what would your meetings be
about?
A.
that I had provided him or our attorneys had provided him; he
might have a generalized question about something within the
order, or getting ahold of one of the legal counsel members.
Q.
know, through to the present, really, did you encounter any
He might have a general question about a production request
Now, in the two years that you were involved at CID, you
resistance from Sheriff Arpaio with regard to complying with
11
the Court's orders?
12
A.
Not to my knowledge, no.
13
Q.
Well, I'm asking you.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Did you encounter any resistance from the sheriff?
16
A.
I did not.
17
Q.
And once CID was established, did you ever encounter any
18
resistance from Sheriff Arpaio with regard to continued
19
compliance with the Court's orders?
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
Did Sheriff Arpaio ever express any resistance to the
22
establishment of CID, to your knowledge?
IEN
DS
10
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Now, you would meet with Sheriff Arpaio occasionally.
FR
25
10:26:34
When you did meet with him, how did you find his
10:27:05
10:27:17
10:27:36
10:28:02
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attitude towards CID?
A.
a job to do and we needed to get it done.
Q.
Towards CID he was very professional; knew we had -- we had
Okay.
Let's turn to the chief deputy for a moment.
In your meetings with Chief Deputy Sheridan with
5
6
regard to the creation of CID, did Chief Deputy Sheridan give
you any resistance to the creation of CID?
A.
Captain Farnsworth, but not that I'm aware of.
I wasn't there in the original creation, so that would be
10
Q.
11
resistance to CID to you?
12
A.
13
and I told him whatever -- whenever I had conversation, it was:
14
This needs to happen.
15
Q.
16
regarding CID, did you ever count -- did you ever encounter any
17
resistance from the chief deputy with regard to continued
18
compliance with the Court's orders?
19
A.
No, I did not.
20
Q.
By the way, who does CID, as a unit, report to?
21
A.
Reports directly to the chief deputy, Jerry Sheridan.
22
Q.
And has that been the case from the beginning?
Okay.
No.
Did Chief Deputy Sheridan ever express any
So in your interactions with Chief Deputy Sheridan
DS
Okay.
IEN
10:28:49
Again, needed -- he knew we needed to get a job done,
23
A.
Yes, it has.
24
Q.
Do you know if it's the case now?
25
A.
Yes, it is the case.
FR
10:28:22
10:29:09
10:29:26
10:29:43
MR. POPOLIZIO:
1
2
THE COURT:
This point to stop?
Thank you.
We will
take 15 minutes, and then we'll be back quarter to the hour.

(Recess taken.)
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
10:30:01
Please be seated.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Your Honor, this is a good spot to
stop if --
3
4
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May I proceed?
You may proceed.
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
10
Q.
11
with CID, did CID ever reach out to the court-appointed monitor
12
for guidance?
13
A.
Yes, on occasion.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
would reach out to the monitor for guidance?
16
A.
17
that we were in line with what needed to be reported, and talk
18
about dates for reporting, dates for site visits, and those
19
type of things.
10:52:13
Couple of them would be some of the reporting to make sure
Operationally, again with the significant operations
protocol we would reach out because with DUI task force or GOHS
22
grant, Governor's Office of Highway Safety Grant, we would have
IEN
21
23
partner agencies that would host an event for a DUI task force.
24
And then our worry there was to make sure we were in compliance
25
with the court order of no more than 10 deputies and detention
FR
10:51:53
And could you give me some examples of when CID
DS
20
Captain Skinner, during your period, your two-year period
10:52:29
10:52:56
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officers working.
That if another agency hosted it -- one
would be the Tempe Safe and Sober operation, which Tempe
reached out to other agencies to help with the back to school
at ASU where there was a high incidence of DUIs and/or alcohol
violations.
of Public Safety -- when I say "Tempe," Tempe Police
Department -- the Department of Public Safety, ASUPD, and MCSO,
well, did those other officers constitute over the 10?
So with the combined efforts of Tempe, Department
And so we reached out to them to propose that, and the
9
10
fact that we weren't hosting it, so we didn't have any records
11
beyond that of what the MCSO would be doing, so we reached out
12
to the monitor to say if we don't meet the threshold with a
13
number, but the combined total with the other agencies exceeds
14
that, and secondly, we're not hosting it.
So they reviewed things like that to tell us whether
15
it was within the parameters or not.
17
Tempe Safe and Sober detail was not what would be considered a
18
significant operation for the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.
19
However, we still followed the protocol of collecting the
20
traffic stop data and the other incidents as required by the
21
order during any operation.
22
Q.
IEN
Okay.
10:53:46
10:54:05
And in this case, the
DS
16
10:54:25
You mentioned a significant operation.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
What is that defined as?
25
A.
Basically, one -- any more than 10 deputies or officers
FR
10:53:26
10:54:36
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working an operation that would involve traffic stops in any
fashion.
Q.
that definition come from?
A.
The court order defined significant operation, sir.
Q.
And when you reached out to the monitor regarding
significant operations and working with Tempe, I mean, how did
you find that experience?
A.
And who has defined "significant operation"?
Where does
Again, I think CID had very good communication with the
10
Monitor Team, as well as the monitor having good cooperation
11
and open cooperation with CID.
12
Q.
13
a significant operation for the Sheriff's Office?
14
A.
15
data.
16
operation of a traffic stop would be captured as it would be
17
required of the order.
18
Q.
19
participated in that operation?
20
A.
Yes, we did.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
Again, because we didn't -- we wanted to comply with the
10:55:12
But you said you still went ahead and reported as if it was
No, we met the reporting requirements for traffic stop

So in that detail we would provide in our -- any
10:55:32
IEN
DS
And did you seek the guidance of the monitor before you
10:55:47
And why was that?
23
court order, and this was new to us as far as with the other
24
agencies.
25
hosting, but if another agency was asking for assistance and
FR
10:54:53
We could clearly understand MCSO's participation and

10:56:05
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that that total then comprised of additional bodies, we wanted
to make sure we were on the right path and got the clear
direction on that.
Q.
regard to reporting?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Again, because there are several different types of
reporting that's required by the order, there's the quarterly
10
reporting that MCSO provides to the Court; the monitor does a
11
quarterly report; we do responses, both the plaintiffs' counsel
12
and MCSO, as well as annual reporting, whether it be the
13
comprehensive assessment of policies and procedures and patrol
14
operations, and traffic stop data, and what have you.
You also mentioned seeking guidance from the monitor with
10:56:22
And, I'm sorry, but could you explain that to me?
So we wanted to make sure we were on a time line that
15
16
was in accordance with what the Court and the monitor was
17
expecting.
18
of 2014 to March of 2014, so we'd already produced some
19
documents relative to some deadlines prior to that, and then we
20
reproduced them.
21
in line and that the reporting dates were met.
22
of the reporting be combined, i.e., the traffic stop data,
DS
IEN
10:56:58
Again, the monitor was brought into this February
We wanted to make sure that everything fell
10:57:21
And could some
23
analysis of traffic stop data and the comprehensive analysis of
24
policy and procedure and patrol operations.
25
encompassing report.
FR
10:56:36
They have one

10:57:42
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Q.
You also mentioned site visits.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Site visits basically were determined by the monitor.
There was the basically scheduled site visits, which were done
quarterly for each quarterly reporting.
were doing their -- or comprising their report based off of
document production, they would also do a site visit to discuss
with -- responsive areas within the MCSO or other matters that
10
they want to discuss with different members, as well as go out
11
to the districts and facilities to look for what they call
12
Phase 2 compliance; that after performing Phase 1 compliance,
13
the training, and the policy, that Phase 2 was:
14
practice?
What are the site visits?
Basically, when they
16
the district facilities and either ask staff questions; also
17
ensure that, you know, do their own inspection of the facility:
18
Is the district facility bias-free?
19
there that would be derogatory to the public?
20
the quarterly site visits.
So with that,
community outreach, the monitor's community outreach meetings,
23
which occur approximately every month within the various areas
24
of Maricopa County, they would sometimes schedule a site visit
25
in accordance to that.
FR
10:58:57
And then, once the monitor was tasked with doing the
IEN
22
10:58:34
Is there anything out
DS
21
10:58:16
Is it in
So they'd go out and do basically a surprise visit to
15
10:57:52
So if it was something specialized,
10:59:17
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let's say we were in the process between plaintiffs' counsel,
the monitor, and the Sheriff's Office, where we had submitted,
let's say, body camera policy, and there were discussions
taking place about how to finalize that for approval, they
might schedule a meeting and invite members from the
plaintiffs' counsel and MCSO and the monitor to sit down and
try to hammer that out so we could get it moving along.
Q.
seeking the guidance from the monitor?
Okay.
So at a meeting like that, how would you go about
10
A.
11
generally start with:
12
meeting at this venue.
13
they're going to house it.
14
responsibility to secure that facility, make sure the contract
15
was set to go and everything was set up.
16
have discussion of:
17
And if so, what members of Sheriff's Office or topics you would
18
like to discuss so we could make sure those personnel were
19
available for them to discuss, and basically make their trip
20
complete with what needed to be done to accomplish for the next
21
quarterly or monthly cycle.
22
Q.
So basically we'd reach out and, first of all, they would
10:59:51
We're planning on hosting a community
They'd have a venue selected of where

The Sheriff's Office had the
And in that we would
11:00:12
DS
Are you planning a site visit as well?
11:00:33
IEN
And this interaction, these interactions that you had with
23
the monitor, did you find them -- did you find them helpful?
24
A.
25
there was any issues that arose.
FR
10:59:33
Yes.
Again, we had two-way communication.
I don't think
11:00:50
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Q.
Were they congenial?
A.
Yes.
Q.
To your knowledge, Captain Skinner, as someone who helped
create CID, worked there for two years, in one of them you were
the commander over CID, do you know if anyone in the command
staff at MCSO discourages CID from seeking any input from the
monitor?
8
9
MR. YOUNG:
Objection, argumentative, foundation.
THE COURT:
I'll sustain it on foundational grounds.
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
11
Q.
How long were you involved in CID?
12
A.
For two year -- approximately two years.
13
Q.
In your first year your involvement was -- involved what?
14
A.
As a lieutenant, basically I kind of call it the worker
15
bee: collecting the documents; helping craft the reporting;
16
helping structure and build the foundation of the reforms;
17
compliance and implementation efforts that the office needed
18
to perform.
19
Q.
And that was your first year?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
The second year as commander it was still some of the same,
IEN
DS
10
11:01:33
11:01:49
11:02:06
The second year entailed what, Captain?
23
but more of a conduit of communication through either the
24
captains of the districts or commanders of the districts, as
25
well as more direct communication with the Monitoring Team.
FR
11:01:09
11:02:25
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Q.
And during those two years that we're discussing right now,
to your knowledge, did anyone from MCSO command staff
discourage you from seeking input from the monitor?
A.
Nobody discouraged me, no.
Q.
Do you know, to your knowledge, if anyone of the MCSO
command staff discouraged any other member of CID from seeking
the input of the monitor?
8
9
MR. YOUNG:
THE COURT:
Sustained.
10
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
11
Q.
12
dissatisfaction to you with regard to seeking any input from
13
the monitor?
14
A.
Not from seeking any input from the monitor, no.
15
Q.
Have you ever witnessed any command staff member of MCSO
16
try to discourage any member of the CID in seeking input from
17
the monitor?
18
A.
I have not witnessed such.
19
Q.
Now, Captain Skinner, you mentioned sometime this morning
20
CID's participation in document requests.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Do you recall that?
11:03:04
IEN
DS
Has anyone in the command staff at MCSO expressed their
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
requests received in this case?
FR
11:02:49
11:03:35
11:04:21
So does CID have some responsibility for document

11:04:33
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A.
Absolutely.
Q.
And what is that responsibility?
A.
Again, the order outlines that we will facilitate and
provide documentation as requested by the Court, the monitor,
and the plaintiffs' counsel.
monitor was in place -- well, let me back step.
And with that we had, once the
When we first started, we had two significant
7
8
operations that required documentation to be provided to the
Court, the plaintiffs, and the monitor.
We didn't have a
10
monitor in place.
11
to that would need to be provided, which we did.
So with that start, any documents relative
13
our system was very archaic, and most of it was handwritten in
14
the very beginning.
15
scan them to make them electronic documents to get those in a
16
fashion where we could actually deliver it.
So we had to take regular documents and
11:05:25
As we moved forward and progressed, we've got systems
17
now that hopefully are more electronic in capturing that data.
19
But keep in mind, we still have, you know, handwritten DRs;
20
sometimes in some cases handwritten citations or traffic
21
contact forms.
DS
18
11:05:49
IEN
As we moved forward, the Monitor Team was put in
23
place, we learned the mechanism that they were looking for
24
document production on a quarterly basis, with the identified
25
paragraphs to show status.
FR
11:05:05
And again, this was a learning process for us, because
12
22
11:04:47
Again, they were learning our
11:06:02
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business operation, and sometimes lack of a system to capture
that documentation, so we spent a great deal of time in the
beginning working with each other to figure out, A, so they
would know our business operation what we did capture, how they
could show compliance measures with it; and B, what we as an
agency could do better about capturing that information and how
we go about it.
So we have evolved from quarterly production requests
8
9
to moving into quarterly and monthly production requests, to,
10
unfortunately, with some other issues that have come up,
11
specialty requests like the ITR requests and the property room
12
requests, as well as if the plaintiffs' counsel has a
13
production request, we provide that as well.
14
we have the DOJ matter and Puente that also had production
15
requests.
11:06:44
And keep in mind,
11:07:05
So we were trying to keep those organized and moving
16
17
forward, providing those who had requested and needed, pursuant
18
to court orders, a copy, as well as archiving that in our own
19
system so that we were able to do so.
20
Q.
21
through the court?
22
A.
DS
When you receive requests from the monitor, does it come
11:07:24
IEN
No, from the monitor it comes directly from the monitor to
23
the Court Implementation Division.
24
Q.
And how often do you receive requests from the monitor?
25
A.
On the monthly and quarterly, we receive the quarterly
FR
11:06:25
11:07:37
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requests usually two weeks before their quarterly site visit.
We might have a follow-up quarterly request after their site
visit, depending upon what had been discussed during the site
visit.
monitor to discuss a schedule that monthly we automatically
send them.
of the next month we send that request out to the responsive
areas, and that's just an ongoing production request.
Q.
And on the monthly request we have worked with the
So when the close of the month happens, the first
And you said you receive document requests from the
10
plaintiff?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
A.
Typically, the plaintiffs' counsel will file either with
14
the Court and/or legal counsel a document request that then is
15
received by us, the CID division.
16
Q.
Ask how do you go about fulfilling a request like that?
17
A.
Basically, again, if documents have already been produced
18
to the monitor, or if there's already document production
19
pursuant to what they're requesting, we work with the legal
20
counsel for MCSO to release those documents or we go out and
21
get those documents; we go to the responsive areas within the
22
agency that would actually retain and house those documents to
11:08:20
IEN
DS
How does that occur?
23
fulfill, and it goes through our legal counsel to disseminate
24
to the plaintiffs' counsel.
25
Q.
FR
11:07:58
So, say, once you went out and retrieved the documents
11:08:31
11:08:48
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responsive to a request, what would you do?
A.
would make sure they're scanned and put in electronic form for
ease of conveyance to the requesting party.
Basically, again, if they're not in electronic form, we
We would then submit them to our legal counsel for
5
6
review, I guess in case something's privileged, but also to
process them with a Bates label to index them so that the legal
team and MCSO would have a copy they could refer to with a
number, a Bates label.
And then again it would be released, in
10
this case to the plaintiffs' counsel from our legal counsel.
11
Q.
12
scanned it in?
13
A.
14
responsive area to hopefully do that for us.
15
Q.
Has that taken a toll on office equipment?
16
A.
Yes, I think so.
17
Q.
How so?
18
A.
We obviously, again, not every area had scanners or the
19
ability to turn paper documents into electronic files, so we've
20
probably burnt a few scanners out and made sure that we are
21
moving ahead in facilitating to make sure that the district
22
facilities, divisions, have the ability to scan those, get the
11:09:55
So when you take in the paper documentation, you said you
Or we'll request the
IEN
DS
If it is hard copy, yes, sir.
23
equipment to do so.
24
Q.
25
also responding to document requests?
FR
11:09:32
11:10:15
11:10:32
And -- well, the monitor aside, in others cases are you

11:10:56
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A.
Yes, we are.
Q.
In which cases?
A.
Again, the United States versus Arpaio, the DOJ case, and
the Puente case.
Q.
provided in this case?
A.
million or so documents.
Q.
How about in the DOJ case, do you have any idea?
10
A.
I couldn't guess, but I would say a couple hundred thousand
11
documents.
12
Q.
And in Puente?
13
A.
Puente, close to hundred thousand, maybe.
14
less than the DOJ.
15
Q.
16
creation, we've talked about a lot of things that CID does and
17
how it works.
18
bit, too, but compliance, things that you did, that CID did to
19
comply with the order, that MCSO has done to comply with the
20
order.
Okay.
Maybe a little
Captain, let's turn -- we've talked about the
11:11:48
Let's turn to -- and we've covered this a little
11:12:22
responsibility as to providing basically a home for the
23
monitor?
24
A.
25
securing an office as well as equipment for the monitor.
FR
11:11:29
First, under the order, did CID have any
IEN
22
11:11:13
If I were to guess, if not hundreds of thousands to a
DS
21
Do you have any idea how many pages of documents you've
Yes.
In the order it lists that we will facilitate

So,
11:12:40
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you know, to kind of preface that a little bit, the order
actually states that we will submit three names of
recommendations for Monitoring Team, plaintiffs' counsel as
well.
is what happened.
If they can't agree, the judge will then decide, which
11:13:00
So in the very beginning, there was a lot of policy
6
7
reform that needed to take place immediately, review of policy
review and reform that took place.
operations the first two months --
We had two significant
10
Q.
Let me just stop you --
11
A.
Okay.
12
Q.
-- there for a second, because I just wanted to -- with
13
regard to office space or monitor space, that was accomplished?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And that was something you had to do under the order?
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
did it have a community out -- community outreach component?
19
A.
Yes, it did.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
The original order, again, required that we would hire a
22
community liaison deputy, which we did, and this needed to be
Could you tell me a little bit about that?
DS
IEN
11:13:28
So the order, did it require some sort of -- well,
23
accomplished before December 31st, as well as hold a community
24
outreach meeting in each one of the district facilities to talk
25
about the court order and the office's status of movement to
FR
11:13:16
11:13:46
11:14:05
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reform on the order, which also was accomplished.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, we did.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, we did.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, he does.
Q.
Although the monitor conducts those meetings, does MCSO
participate in any way?
So you hired a community liaison officer.
Did you conduct some meetings?
11:14:19
Does the monitor conduct those meetings now?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
How?
12
A.
Again, they reach out, the Monitoring Team reaches out to
13
MCSO to secure the venue or facility, so we do so and make sure
14
that's in place.
15
meetings, typically a bureau chief from the enforcement side,
16
whether it be Chief Trombi or Chief Rodriguez.
17
member of CID; typically, a member from the Professional
18
Standards Bureau to accept any complaints; and occasionally a
19
community outreach deputy.
20
Q.
21
type of community outreach?
22
A.
11:14:34
We also send members of MCSO to the community
Typically, a
DS
Aside from the meetings, do you know if MCSO does any other
11:15:14
IEN
Yes, they do.
23
Q.
What's that?
24
A.
The MCSO actually has a Community Outreach Division.
25
know, again, being housed back in patrol, that there are a
FR
11:14:53
I
11:15:30
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number of requests from either the public or businesses out in
the Maricopa County and even out of county, sometimes, to do
displays; to do the Touch a Truck event; to do combined
charitable campaigns; as well as some of the district
commanders and staff actually reach out to their patrol areas,
whether it be through a contract area.
such as Fountain Hills that has a town hall meeting.
commanders go to those, or at least an assistant commander goes
to those, to listen to the concerns that the town council may
Say a contract area

The
10
have, also maybe provide some activity reports.
11
Q.
12
Fountain Hills?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Does MCSO participate in town hall meetings or show up at
15
town hall meetings in others towns?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
What are the contract areas?
18
A.
In District 7 we have Fountain Hills.
19
community up there as well but it is a county area.
20
Queen Creek it is a full-time contract city.
21
District 2 Gila Bend, Litchfield Park, and Goodyear.
22
District 3 we have Youngtown.
11:16:17
You mentioned just now like a town hall meeting you said at
Typically, our contract areas, yes, sir.
DS
IEN
11:16:35
Rio Verde's a little

Down in
We have in
11:16:53
Up in
23
Q.
I'm sorry, what?
24
A.
Youngtown.
25
then where I work is the Tonto National Forest would be our
FR
11:15:58
And up in District 4, Cave Creek-Carefree.
And
11:17:15
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contract area.
I hope I named them all.
Q.
talking about community outreach, you rattled off a bunch of
things.
A.
entity may reach out to us, say that they're doing a display
where they'd like law enforcement, potentially fire personnel,
maybe other city or governmental bodies, to bring out
equipment.
Well, I couldn't help you with that.
You mentioned displays.
So when you were
What did you mean by that?
Again, either the Community Outreach Division or a business
Whether it be our SWAT team that brings out their
10
equipment, just to see what a SWAT operator actually has.
11
Patrol, they may want to see a -- our mounted unit.
12
horses out to, you know, an event that -- maybe a carnival that
13
has kids at it, to build the law enforcement bridge.
14
Q.
What's Touch a Truck?
15
A.
Touch a Truck is basically a lot of different agencies
16
bringing a vehicle out to see what that equipment looks like.

MR. YOUNG:
17
Lake
19
looking.
I have a relevance objection.
DS
THE COURT:
Do you know, I did agree with
Mr. Masterson that because I was allowing evidence that
22
pertained to noncompliance with the Court's order I would allow
IEN
21
24
FR
25
11:18:19
Your Honor, I know this has gone on for
some time, and this is sort of retroactive but also forward
23
11:18:02
Bring the
18
20
11:17:37
11:18:35
evidence that pertains to compliance with the Court's order.

To the extent you're talking about other programs that
don't have any relation to compliance with the Court's order,
11:18:51
I'm going to sustain the objection.

MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
Very well, Your Honor.
The objection is sustained.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Okay.
moving on, anyhow.
community outreach that was occurring.
I'm
I just wanted to address some sort of
THE COURT:
community outreach in this matter.
facts pertaining to that withdrawal.
I haven't forgotten the
And so that was all dealt
10
with at the time.
11
ability to refer to the record.
12
legitimate objection to my referring to the record in this
13
matter.
I've already raised with the parties my
I don't think you have any
If you do, I've invited you to raise it.
15
outreach outside of the Court's order, it's not relevant to
16
this action.
And just to -- just to note, Your Honor --
18
THE COURT:
19
If you want to do notes, we'll do them at
DS
sidebar.
11:19:50
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
THE COURT:
23
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
24
Q.
25
of MCSO personnel?
FR
11:19:38
I'm sustaining the objection.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
17
22
11:19:21
To the extent that what the sheriff does for community
14
21
11:19:00
The sheriff has withdrawn from the
20
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I can move on, Your Honor.
Thank you.
Now, did compliance with the Court's order require training

11:20:06
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A.
Yes, it did.
Q.
Does -- well, does MCSO have a training division?
A.
Yes, they do.
Q.
So who is responsible for training under the order?
A.
The Training Bureau would be.
Q.
Now, does CID have any involvement with training?
A.
Yes, we do.
Q.
How is that?
A.
Again, when we went through the order to define the tasks
11:20:24
10
or the responsive areas that would be most applicable for the
11
agency, members of the agency, MCSO, to respond to or provide
12
the reform measures, training is a big component.
13
consider it a pillar of the order.
I kind of
It talks about specific training, but in addition
14
15
there are a lot of compliance measures and reform measures that
16
need to happen in the agency.
17
we'll need training to be a component of that; whether it be
18
use of body cameras, use of the TraCS training, use of
19
BlueTeam, et cetera.
20
Q.
21
order.
22
training that involves the constitutional rights of citizens?
DS
Now, I want to turn to some types of training under the
IEN
11:21:03
For example, software programs,
11:21:22
In looking at the types of training, is there any
23
A.
Yes, there is.
24
Q.
And what is that training?
25
A.
Again, it was what we term the Fourth, Fourteenth
FR
11:20:42
11:21:44
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Amendment, and Bias-Free Policing was combined to be that
training, and pursuant to the order had to be delivered
within -- the first one we did the two-day course, which is the
16 hours, and then it's supposed to be annually thereafter.
Q.
Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, and Bias -- you said bias-free
policing training, entailed?
A.
attend the training.
Okay.
So could you generally describe what the Fourth
Again, every member, sworn and volunteer Posse, had to

And it had to address arrests,
10
detentions, and any immigration-related laws, as well as how to
11
do policing and law enforcement in a bias-free, neutral manner.
11:22:31
So key topics that had to be discussed were lined out
12
13
in the order, and as we -- as the MCSO proposed the curriculum
14
for that training there were several discussions between the
15
Monitor Team, the plaintiffs' counsel, and MCSO staff, as well
16
as the legal counsel, to finalize that training and actually
17
deliver it.
18
Q.
19
Fourteenth Amendment and Bias-Free Policing training?
20
A.
21
and roughly, 59, 60 reserve at the time.
22
Q.
Okay.
11:22:53
How many sworn deputies have received the Fourth and
DS
Off the top of my head, I would guess about 700 compensated
11:23:13
IEN
And you mentioned Posse receiving training?
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Approximately a thousand.
FR
11:22:08
How many Posse received this training?

11:23:31
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Q.
And you said that there will be additional training in
these areas.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
And why is that?
A.
The order requires that it will occur annually thereafter.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And for the benefit of the court reporter, how would you
spell that?
You mentioned TraCS before.
10
A.
It's capital T-r-a capital C capital S.
11
Q.
And basically what is TraCS, again?
12
A.
Basically, it is a traffic records management system that
13
will retain, or actually allow the forms and database for
14
traffic-related reports and incidents.
15
be captured utilizing this software program.
16
developed by -- I believe somewhere in the Midwest for traffic
17
collision forms as well as traffic data.
11:24:02
So all traffic data can

It was actually
11:24:29
It has since transponded into the law enforcement area
18
to actually house our vehicle contact forms, our Arizona crash
20
or traffic collision forms, and then again the E-Ticketing
21
citation, warning, incidental contacts, and tow sheets.
22
hoping eventually that more forms might be added to that.
IEN
DS
19
11:24:56
We're
23
Q.
What was the last term you just mentioned, tow sheets?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
needs to be towed.
FR
11:23:43
Tow truck requests, or tow sheets when a vehicle

11:25:18
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Q.
Okay.
A.
E-Ticketing is basically again moving and progressing in
law enforcement as everything technology-wise goes from the
hand-copy citations that we used to do, and still do if we
don't have a system up and operating, goes into an electronic
where actually we enter the traffic data.
issue a driver's license and a vehicle registration with the
barcode data.
input the fields of the driver or contact, whether it be the
10
Now, E-Ticketing is basically what?
A lot of the states
The system will actually scan that barcode data,
passenger if they contact, and the vehicle information.
11:25:58
And then we're able to physically print a copy of the
11
12
citation, have the driver sign that copy of the citation, take
13
it back to the car, scan the signature, and then issue whether
14
it be a citation, a warning, or an incidental contact, with the
15
receipt information as required by the order.
16
Q.
You also mentioned incidental contacts.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Tell me about that.
19
tracked under this TraCS system?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
A.
Again, we wanted to capture every traffic stop as pursuant
11:26:20
That is -- the incidental contacts are
IEN
DS
11:26:36
And why is that?
23
to the court order.
24
all human.
25
might have thought somebody blew a stop sign and instead we
FR
11:25:36
And, you know, hate to admit it but we're
Even cops make mistakes once in a while.
And we
11:26:50
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pull them over and they say:
Yes, sir, but Officer, that was a
yield sign.
can't give them a warning, I can't give them a citation, but I
still want to capture the traffic stop data.
So really, they made no violation so I really
So the members of CID kind of looked at each other and
5
6
said:
Here is your receipt of the contact and you note that.
Yeah, we need that fail-safe if we do make a mistake.
Additionally, you may get an attempt to locate on a
8
9
driver and/or vehicle, and we stop that vehicle and it's not
10
that person.
11
available to provide them a receipt.
12
Q.
13
stops that would be conducted by a deputy?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
And was TraCS implemented because of this order?
16
A.
Yes, it was.
17
Q.
Is there training involved with that?
18
A.
Yes, there is.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
system?
21
A.
22
training curriculum at this point.
So we also made that mechanism to be, again,
11:27:22
So does TraCS help accomplish the making a record of all
11:27:41
DS
What type of training is involved with the TraCS
11:27:56
IEN
The MCSO is currently delivering the approved TraCS

I don't know the status
23
because -- since I've left, but I can tell you from a patrol
24
perspective I only have one or two more deputies that need to
25
attend this training, so we should be nearing completion of the
FR
11:27:05
11:28:12
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training.
Q.
does MCSO provide proposed training to anyone outside MCSO?
A.
Yes, they do.
Q.
And to whom does MCSO provide the proposed training?
A.
The independent Monitoring Team and the plaintiffs'
counsel.
Q.
And why is that?
A.
Again, it's a requirement of the order, so that they can
Training such as that, before it's actually implemented,
10
review and approve and provide feedback.
11
Q.
And does that work?
12
A.
Yes, it does.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
Again, we -- MCSO will generally create the curriculum.
15
They may even have already provided or received input from the
16
Monitoring Team, and maybe even the plaintiffs' counsel at
17
times, to go ahead and incorporate that, or even from the
18
Court, for that matter.
Tell me about that.
again, they get it from Arizona POST, hiring outside
21
consultants, or we have some in-house experts or staff members
22
that would be able to -- best to draft that curriculum.
IEN
DS
20
11:28:58
11:29:15
And then once it is in a draft form, it is then
24
provided to the Monitoring Team, the plaintiffs' counsel, say,
25
Here is our proposal of the curriculum, and at that point both
FR
11:28:44
But we will draft the curriculum, whether it be,
19
23
11:28:30
11:29:36
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parties will review and provide feedback to MCSO.
And again,
sometimes it's a work in progress, sometimes it's approved
right away, and sometimes it might be a few tweaks that we
decide to move forward with it.
Q.
Turn to the issue of body cameras.
Under the Court's orders -- order, are body cameras
6
7
required to be used by MCSO deputies?
A.
order, yes.
Yes, on the amended portion of the stipulation of the
10
Q.
Could you explain that to me?
11
A.
Originally when the order was drafted, it specified in-car
12
cameras.
13
national trend of law enforcement, and even the president's
14
recommendation of body cameras as the next generation or next
15
wave to actually use that equipment.
16
held in-house about body cameras and proposed to the
17
plaintiffs' counsel and the Court of stipulating, instead of
18
in-car cameras, the use of body cameras.
19
Q.
Will the use of body cameras require training?
20
A.
Yes, it will.
21
Q.
Do you know the status of the training of body cameras?
22
Well, with regard to body cameras.
11:30:11
Since -- and again, I think you're seeing the
And so discussions were
DS
IEN
23
A.
24
delivered.
25
Q.
FR
11:29:55
11:30:32
11:30:51
I believe some of it has, if not most of it, has been
And how many MCSO personnel will receive training on body
11:31:05
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cameras?
A.
That I don't know.
Q.
Do you know the total that are intended to receive it?
A.
That I don't know as well.
Q.
How many sworn deputies are there at MCSO?
A.
Approximately six to seven hundred.
Q.
Will all of them be required to have a body camera?
A.
I believe the original was lieutenant and below.
Q.
And do you know what it was settled at?
10
A.
Again, I was tran -- I transferred out of CID prior to the
11
final on all of that.
12
Q.
13
MCSO policies necessary?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
policies?
17
A.
Yes, it did.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
as a result of the court order?
20
A.
21
revised potentially to include bias-free policing, to include
22
traffic stops; and secondly, you gotta look at a lot of the new
Okay.
Or have received, if you know.
Did the Court's order require implementation of new
11:32:00
Do you recall any new policies that were implemented
DS
Obviously, there were several policies that needed to be
IEN
11:31:45
As a result of the Court's order, were changes in
23
equipment or procedures that were required of the court order
24
for the reform needed policy.
25
intervention system, so now that we're putting in place an
FR
11:31:26
11:32:15
Again, we didn't have an early

11:32:39
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early intervention system, we need policy and training to
correspond with that.
You know, additionally the TraCS system and traffic
3
4
stop procedure, the fact that we announce the reason for the
traffic stop prior to a traffic stop affects the communications
policy.
will affect internal investigations policy.
DR, or a departmental report, and the time line of when a
supervisor -- when it should be turned in and when a supervisor
The way that we will take in and handle complaints
The way we do a
10
shall sign then affects the reporting policy, or the incident
11
report policy.
12
the order affected.
13
Justice matter with the anti-retaliation created new policy, so
14
yes.
15
Q.
16
that accomplished?
17
A.
18
2nd, 2013 order, we parsed down where an existing policy, we
19
had to look at -- work with the policy and compliance division
20
of the Sheriff's Office to ascertain areas that existing policy
21
may need to be revised and addressed, so we reached out to
22
policy.
And beyond this order, the Department of
11:33:39
DS
Again, when the original order -- when we saw the October
11:34:03
Secondly, as new programs or new units were created,
24
we had to work with those units about addressing either a
25
policy or an operational manual that would affect, and
FR
11:33:20
So there is a myriad of different reports that
So how do these changes in policy and new policies, how is
IEN
23
11:32:57
11:34:22
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sometimes, some cases maybe both, that would affect those
areas.
Q.
MCSO personnel?
A.
Yes, they would.
Q.
Okay.
revised policies done?
A.
capture that.
Now, these policy changes, would they require training of
11:34:39
So tell me about that.
How is training on new or
Again, the Sheriff's Office didn't have a great system to

Generally, in the beginning, we would have
10
administrative broadcasts, or Briefing Boards at the time, I
11
believe they were, that would be disseminated stating there was
12
a change in policy, with an electronic copy of that.
13
know, good question is:
14
accountability of that?
But, you
How do we, as an agency, ensure the
So what was developed was an E policy, which is
15
similar to what our E Learning was: that a Briefing Board would
17
go out with the attached policy, and then the employee then was
18
required, within 30 days or a scheduled time frame, to actually
19
review that policy and attest, through the truthfulness policy
20
and a few other items, that they actually read and understood
21
that policy.
22
Q.
DS
16
IEN
A.
That is correct.
24
Q.
Let's turn to the issue of supervision.
FR
11:35:13
11:35:33
And that's E policy?
23
25
11:34:55
Did the Court's order require changes in the
11:35:47
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supervision of MCSO personnel?
A.
court order.
Q.
Okay.
A.
The court order, again, structures supervision and puts a
lot of emphasis on the necessary measures and reform that needs
to happen.
Q.
And what types of supervisory reform have occurred?
A.
Again, pursuant to the court order, the 1-to-12 ratio, we
Yes.
Again, I consider that another pillar within the
And why do you consider it to be a pillar?
10
ensured -- we sought funding for additional staffing; promoted
11
supervisors to ensure that everybody had a clearly defined
12
supervisor, as far as in the field first-line supervisor, the
13
1-to-12 ratio was met.
15
roles with the BlueTeam supervisory notes being done bimonthly.
16
Complaints, all complaints that come into the Sheriff's Office
17
will be accepted and shall be investigated, and so the
18
supervisors are doing that.
intervention unit, they actually had developed some methodology
21
or continue to work on methodology for supervisors to look for
22
bias-free policing, the types of traffic stop data to do the
IEN
DS
20
FR
25
11:36:44
The review of traffic stop data with the early
19
24
11:36:22
The Early Intervention System ties into supervisory
14
23
11:36:01
11:37:06
traffic stop review.

So the supervisory training, last I left, was still
being discussed and constructed.
11:37:24
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Q.
Now, you've mentioned a few times, at least I believe you
did, the Early Intervention System.

What is that?
3
4
A.
Basically, again, the order defines that there will be an
early-warning system in reference to employee behavior.
So looking again to other agencies and software
6
7
programs that's utilized by law enforcement, other governmental
entities, a solution was decided upon was what they call IAPro.
And IAPro is a software program that allows not only the
10
tracking of employee behavior and putting or setting
11
thresholds -- identifying and setting thresholds of types of
12
behavior to give the supervisor something to look at at the
13
dashboard or at their computer to say:
14
maybe's on the radar, or this person is not.
15
gives a mechanism to be able to track complaints better in the
16
process of complaints.
Okay.
11:38:05
This person
Secondly, it
11:38:25
So IAPro actually has a couple components, at least at
17
18
the Sheriff's Office.
19
Affairs complaints and some of the inspections and that type of
20
information.
21
BlueTeam interface is basically what the line supervisor
22
utilizes to do supervisory notes; to do their complaint
You have the BlueTeam interface.
DS
IEN
We have IAPro, which houses the Internal
And the
23
investigation procedure and upload those files; as well as be
24
able to put commendations, awards, notable events, such as an
25
accident, and any trackable behavior, into there.
FR
11:37:41
Anything
11:38:43
11:39:11
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from, again, receiving a citation; contact with other law
enforcement agency off duty; those type of things are tracked
not only as a requirement to the identified items in the order,
but above and beyond to match MCSO policy.
And the threshold, then, is set where it basically, if
5
6
there are no complaints, then it stays, like the stop sign or
traffic light, green.
certain amount of complaints in a given time period -- again,
the EIU would be the better ones to ask for those thresholds --
If, let's say, somebody receives a
10
but it may turn yellow, which means:
11
supervisor need to maybe look into this.
12
needs some additional training or corrective measures.
13
then obviously red means something needs to be done about it,
14
and forces, then, the supervisor to, you know, look into the
15
matter whether, again, it be something that is a training
16
issue, is it a systemic issue that happens within a unit, or is
17
it something that disciplinary measures need to come into play?
18
Q.
You just mentioned EIU?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
What's EIU?
21
A.
That is the Early Intervention Unit, which is basically,
22
again, the team that was put together in response the
Caution.
You as a
IEN
DS
And
requirement of the order to have an early intervention unit or
24
an early warning unit.
25
Q.
And how many people comprise EIU?
11:39:56
Maybe this person
23
FR
11:39:33
11:40:16
11:40:34
11:40:47
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A.
EIU is housed under the Bureau of Internal Oversight, and I
believe the EIU unit, approximately five or six staff members.
Q.
command staff?
A.
Yes, there is.
Q.
Is there -- are there anybody -- is there anybody on EIU or
within EIU that is below command staff, so below a sergeant?
A.
No, not unless it's admin staff.
Q.
Now, Captain, was there anything to be done with regard to
Now, do those staff members who comprise EIU, are there
11:41:21
10
IA procedures under the Court's order?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
the order?
14
A.
15
complaint was handled, accepted and handled, and that we had
16
standardized investigations as well as discipline policy to
17
match.
11:41:56
Can you generally describe what was required under
In generality, the order, again, made sure that every
With that, and again, once the monitor came on board,
18
we -- there were things that they noticed in their site visits
20
and assessments such as:
21
platform to accept complaints?
22
website ability?
IEN
DS
19
Are we making sure we have every
Do we have a telephone number?
it in person?
24
accessibility to actually make those complaints.
FR
11:42:28
In other words, do we have
23
25
11:42:09
Can they do
Or putting pamphlets out at our substations, the
And that then they're handled in a fashion where
11:42:50
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they're looked into, and there's notifications made to not only
the one that complained, but to the supervisor that may be
supervising that person that is the subject of the complaint.
So, yes, there were a myriad of different areas, and
I -- and to this day, it's still being reformed on the process
to standardize it throughout the agency, the MCSO.
Q.
Oversight, several times during your testimony.
address that, the BIO.
Now, you've mentioned BIO, the Bureau of Internal
I want to
So the monitors are there for oversight of MCSO, is
10
11
that your understanding?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And CID is there to implement changes and reforms?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
What's BIO's responsibility?
16
A.
The Bureau of Internal Oversight is, again, for internal
17
oversight: just that.
18
inspections and audits within the agency to make sure that the
19
measures of reform and compliance are being met through those
20
audits and inspections, but not only for court order or court
21
orders that the office needs to reform and make that
22
compliance, but also for MCSO policy.
11:43:56
11:44:20
So, for example, some of their inspections of audits,
24
just to, let's say, ensure the 1-to-12 ratio of supervisors and
25
everybody has a clearly identified supervisor, they will do an
FR
11:43:36
So they are internally looking at
DS
IEN
23
11:43:12
11:44:41
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inspection or audit on shift rosters.
They may physically go
out and contact supervisors and ask them questions about that,
so that then they will provide a report that basically
addresses that.
If there are deficiencies found, the deficiencies
5
6
then, through the chain of command, will be delivered down to
the lowest level that created the deficiency to be addressed.
And it requires action upon that supervisor to then make
notation of what they did to address the deficiency to ensure
10
that we don't have this happen again, and get it back to the
11
Bureau of Internal Oversight.
11:45:23
It's not only that it makes the Sheriff's Office
12
personnel aware, but they also post on the mcso.org or bio.org
14
website to the public these audits and inspections for
15
transparency of the agency.
16
Q.
Whose idea was the Bureau of Internal Oversight?
17
A.
It was a culmination of several people.
18
Q.
And who are they?
19
A.
Again, I think originally when I reached out and CID
20
reached out to the Las Vegas Metro Police Department, they had
21
that unit.
22
the inspections and audits that need to occur within the order.
IEN
DS
13
11:45:45
11:45:58
And again, if you read deep into the order, you see
23
And reaching out to other areas that had consent decrees, a lot
24
of the consent decrees actually prescribed and required such a
25
unit.
FR
11:45:00
11:46:27
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So with that, we discussed this with the chief
1
2
financial officer, Chief Sheridan, and Chief Sheridan discussed
with the sheriff, which we ultimately had to go to the Board of
Supervisors to get approval for the funding to create, and
that's how it came about.
Q.
Was the approval received?
A.
Yes, it was.
Q.
Now, CID and BIO, are they intertwined?
A.
To a degree, yes.
10
Q.
And how is that?
11
A.
When the Bureau of Internal Oversight was created and put
12
into place, a lot of the auditing and inspection, their first
13
priority was to make sure that their auditing and inspecting
14
was in line with the requirements of the order to start to
15
measure compliance.
16
identify those deficiencies, communicate that back to the
17
members of the office so that we could correct those
18
deficiencies and ensure that we're building compliance as it is
19
related to the order.
20
Q.
21
finds one?
22
A.
11:46:41
11:46:55
And as deficiencies were found, to
DS
Do you know how a deficiency would be addressed if BIO
11:47:31
IEN
Yes, I can tell you, because, again, in my new assignment I
23
do receive them from time to time.
24
or audit, again, that may be in line with what the monitor is
25
looking for in a document production, or they may do their own,
FR
11:47:17
They will do an inspection
11:47:52
whether it just be a facility inspection.
they look at either the policy of MCSO:
do -- what it is they're inspecting, does it meet the
guidelines that are prescribed within policy -MR. YOUNG:
5
6
foundation grounds.
wish.
THE COURT:
Once they do that,
Does this inspection
Your Honor, I'm going to object on
11:48:13
And I'm happy to elaborate on that if you
No.
I do think we don't have sufficient foundation for
9
10
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this witness to talk a lot about BIO.

MR. POPOLIZIO:
11
11:48:26
I think the witness just testified,
12
Your Honor, that he not only has knowledge of it, but he's also
13
now a captain over 60, so he has interaction with BIO, so he
14
has knowledge of how it works.

THE COURT:
15
I did hear him say that he is a captain
16
over 60 people, but I didn't hear him say that he'd actually
17
received any BIO directives or orders as such a captain.
18
if he did, I would let him to testify about those directives or
19
orders.
And
And I haven't heard that.
And I did hear him suggest in some of his testimony
DS
20
that Mr. Young did not object to that he was aware of how BIO
22
was created and that it suggests that he may have played some
IEN
21
23
role in coming up with it.
24
different than the actual testimony or operation of it, so I'm
25
going to require you to lay more foundation.
FR
11:48:42
11:48:59
But again, that's a little bit
11:49:19
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BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
Q.
You're captain over Lake Patrol at this time --
A.
Correct.
Q.
-- right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
In your command of Lake Patrol, you are in command of how
many individuals?
A.
Approximately 60.
Q.
And that's 60 deputies?
10
A.
No, that's combined staff, but a majority deputies, sworn
11
staff.
12
Q.
How many deputies?
13
A.
Approximately 40- -- 55.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
have you had any interaction with BIO?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
BIO.
19
A.
20
send that to the district commanders for notification.
21
there's any deficiencies addressed in that audit or inspection,
22
then it is incumbent upon that command staff within that area
11:49:24
In your experience as a commander of Lake Patrol,
11:49:59
Could you tell me a bit about that interaction with
IEN
DS
When BIO conducts an audit or an inspection, they will then

If
23
to address the deficiency, and do what they call or complete
24
what they call a BIO action form and --
25
Q.
FR
11:49:40
What's that?
11:50:11
11:50:32
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A.
-- send it back to them.
Q.
What's a BIO action form?
A.
It's a form that basically, again, is a response to what
the inspection and audit was, what -- the deficiency that was
found, and what the staff did to address it.

THE COURT:
Just to be sure, you've actually received
one of these forms in the two months you've been captain over
the Lake Division?
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
10
Yes, I have, sir.
Thank you.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
11
12
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
Q.
Captain -- excuse me.
11:51:02
Thank you, Captain.
Let me try that again.
Captain, looking back over your two years with CID, do
14
15
you believe that MCSO has accomplished much under the Court's
16
order?
17
18
20
21
Objection, leading.
THE COURT:
Oh, it's clearly leading, but I'm going to
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE WITNESS:
You can answer.
11:51:56
The CID produces quarterly reports of
compliance measures within the order on a quarterly basis that
23
they file with the Court.
We reach out to all avenues and
24
facets within the office.
We have had to create a lot in this
25
two years, we've had to accomplish a lot.
FR
11:51:40
allow it.
IEN
22
MR. YOUNG:
DS
19
11:50:49
Again, a lot of it
11:52:14
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was building the foundation of the reforms and compliance
measures needed to follow out the order.
Sometimes it's behind the scenes of what's forgotten,
3
4
whether it be, you know, getting the monitor office space.
But
those little things are all things that take time, and we are a
large agency with approximately 3300 people.
the largest sheriffs' offices in the United States, getting
people trained, getting a curriculum done, getting it approved,
setting up staff to teach it or other members to teach it,
10
allocating space to have those people go through and still
11
maintain service to the public and run the detention for the
12
jails, we've -- we've moved very far with this, as far as we
13
can go.
14
Q.
So being one of
11:53:00
Earlier you mentioned Phase 1 and Phase 2.

Do you recall that?
15
11:53:22
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
A.
Phase 1 basically is defined as training and policy reform,
19
and that we've either created it and delivered it.
20
actually in practice.
21
Q.
22
MCSO's percentage of compliance under the Court's order with
DS
What did you mean by that?
IEN
Okay.
Phase 2 is
11:53:38
Turning to Phase 1, do you have any idea as to
23
regard to Phase 1?
24
A.
Approximately 50 percent, sir.
25
Q.
And what about Phase 2?
FR
11:52:35
11:53:54
A.
number I remember.
I estimate about 25 percent, I believe, was the last
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
4
5
minutes.
Thank you, Captain.
Why don't we break for lunch.
It's five
It will be five extra minutes you can have for lunch.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT
Thank you, sir.
-- for your cross-examination.
Did you have a problem with that, Mr. Masterson.
MR. MASTERSON:
10
THE COURT:
11
Oh, no.
Okay.
I'm just getting ready.
THE COURT:
13
We'll see you back, then, at 1:15.
Thank you.
Please be seated.
You ready for cross-examination, Mr. Young?
14
MS. MORIN:
15
Your Honor, we did have one issue to raise
THE COURT:
Ah, Ms. Morin.
Sorry about that.
Did you want to raise it at sidebar or open court?
18
MS. MORIN:
19
Open court is fine with us, Your Honor.
It relates to one of the matters that was raised during the
21
telephone conference yesterday.
IEN
DS
20
24
FR
25
13:31:07
with the Court.
17
23
11:54:29
(Lunch recess taken.)
12
22
11:54:13
I'll have you back at 1:15, please, Captain --
16
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THE COURT:
All right.
MS. MORIN:
13:31:19
Please go ahead.
This relates to
the County's exhibit and proposed witness testimony.

THE COURT:
Yes.
13:31:29
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MS. MORIN:
Plaintiffs continue to object to both the
document and the testimony on relevance grounds, as well as on
the ground of the late notice that the County has provided, and
also on foundation as to the exhibit.
And we're asking for the Court's guidance today
5
6
because, of course, we'd like to avoid the unnecessary expense
of a deposition tomorrow, if we could, but we were looking to
the Court for guidance on that matter.
forward if we need to.
10
11
12
We are prepared to go
THE COURT:
So what do you want?
MS. MORIN:
We'd like a ruling that the exhibit will
THE COURT:
Well, as it now stands -- I will hear from
14
Mr. Walker -- I have the same concerns I expressed yesterday,
15
unless there's been some sort of a new development.
MR. WALKER:
17
The document, as we discussed yesterday, is a
18
compilation of costs, more or less to date, that have been
20
incurred by the County in connection with this case.
DS
19
THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
And how is it that it would be relevant?

I think it is relevant, Your Honor,
24
again, as we discussed yesterday, putting aside the issue of
25
victims' compensation, that part of any relief, if the Court
FR
13:32:41
In our discussion --
IEN
23
13:32:14
Mr. Walker.
16
22
13:32:02
not be admitted.
13
21
13:31:44
13:32:58
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determines that some sort of additional injunctive relief is
needed, the document -- one of the -- one of the
considerations, obviously, is the public interest.

THE COURT:
Yes.
Let me just share with you, I'm not
opposed, necessarily, to the idea of an accounting.
But I've
expressed a number of times throughout this suit -- since well
before you were involved, with all due respect, Mr. Walker -- a
concern that various parties might be manipulating this whole
order as a part of County finance.
As a result, I opened up
10
the monitor to commenting to the County Board of Supervisors on
11
costs and estimates provided by the Maricopa County Sheriff's
12
Office for costs of implementation, and I know that he's done
13
that on several occasions.
15
relevant, or at least worth considering, it does seem to me to
16
open up a whole area pertaining to whether or not those -- I
17
mean, even as we've heard Captain Skinner today, my reaction
18
has been some of these things, all of these things that have
19
been implemented through the monitor's order are good things.
DS
I have some thought that maybe because the plaintiffs
and the defendants at the time agreed to a number of them
22
without dispute, that some of them really may have been quite
IEN
21
23
beneficial for the sheriff's department, things that the
24
sheriff wanted to achieve.
25
attributable to the costs of implementing the monitor's order,
FR
13:33:39
And so even though I think costs may be marginally
14
20
13:33:18
13:34:01
13:34:19
I'm not really sure that they're

13:34:40
and to get into that we're going to have to reopen a whole
bunch of stuff.
So, I mean, what about the idea of me taking judicial
3
4
notice about what the monitor has cost?
to do that.
MR. WALKER:
6
7
I'm certainly willing
13:34:53
Well, I appreciate that, Your Honor, but,
of course, there's much more to the story than that.

THE COURT:
8
9
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taking?
MR. WALKER:
10
And as --
So what deposition are we looking at
It's the deputy finance director, who
11
would simply authenticate the document and explain how the
12
compilation was created.

THE COURT:
13
All right.
Well, I think that -- I think
14
that that's probably going to be required in order to admit the
15
exhibit if the plaintiffs are going to object.
16
you don't want to do it, Ms. Morin, but it sounds to me like
17
you're going to have to do it.

MS. MORIN:
18
MR. WALKER:
19
21
MR. WALKER:
23
13:35:22

Thank you.
Is there any issue with that, Mr. Walker?

No, Your Honor.
13:35:33
Ms. Goelz will be
to the plaintiffs, and we can move forward on that basis.
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. WALKER:
FR
And so maybe
available for deposition tomorrow afternoon, as we've indicated
IEN
22
THE COURT:
DS
20
13:35:06
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
13:35:45
1
2
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Skinner - CX Young, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
THE COURT:
Mr. Young.
MR. YOUNG:

CROSS-EXAMINATION
3
4
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Thank you, Captain Skinner.
A.
Very well.
Q.
Okay.
that matter, and sorry to keep you waiting.
A.
No problem at all, sir.
10
Q.
Would you agree with me that law enforcement is a noble
11
calling?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
It's a chance to serve the public, to protect the public,
14
correct?
15
A.
Yes, it is, sir.
16
Q.
And really, the goal of us all here should be to maximize
17
the effectiveness of law enforcement consistent with compliance
18
with the Constitution and the Court's orders.
Hello.
How are you?
How about yourself, Mr. Young?
Thanks for your patience while we straightened out
13:36:06
Yes, it is, I believe it is.
13:36:21
Would you agree with me on that?
19
A.
Yes, I do.
21
Q.
Now, in the course of your work with CID -- and I'll join
22
Mr. Popolizio in just referring to it as CID -- you have had as
IEN
DS
20
23
a goal making the MCSO live up to the highest standards, is
24
that right?
25
A.
FR
13:35:59
Yes, to make sure that we perform in an efficient manner as
13:36:38
13:36:57
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we're implementing the order, correct, sir.
Q.
least connected to the court order, and actually as Judge Snow
just said, may be things that the Sheriff's Office might have
wanted to do anyway just in order to improve itself, body
cameras, for example.
A.
Not necessarily, sir.
Q.
Not all of them, but at least some of those measures might
have been things that the Sheriff's Office would have
And some of the things that you've talked about that are at
Would you agree with that?
10
concluded, regardless of the court order, would have been
11
beneficial for it to do.
13:37:33
12
MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
THE COURT:
14
Sustained.
15
BY MR. YOUNG:
16
Q.
17
result of what you have done in response to the Court's orders?
18
A.
19
has been done, so as the agency has progressed I feel it's a
20
better agency.
21
definitely, with the progression of technology and the
22
efficiency that is moving in the direction it is, it is more
13:37:47
Do you think that the MCSO is a better agency now as a
IEN
DS
I don't know that I can take personal credit for all that
I've been with the agency 25 years, and
23
efficient, and hopefully it serves the public in a better
24
manner, yes.
25
Q.
FR
13:37:15
And some of the things that you have done in CID have
13:38:03
13:38:18
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contributed to that improvement in the agency, would you agree
with that?
A.
isn't just because of Russ Skinner; it's about the team efforts
with members within this organization.
Q.
improvement of the agency, would you agree that further efforts
in response to any orders that this Court might choose to
order, based on the evidence here, could also potentially
10
I'm a pretty humble man, Mr. Young.
Okay.
My team, yes.
It
13:38:34
And to the extent that there are still any areas for
result in further improvement of the MCSO.

11
12
A.
13
judgments that the Court may order.
14
best of my ability, with the fact that any public entity, any
15
government entity, shouldn't stand on its feet; it should
16
continue to progress and look at the future.
I can't speculate on any further improvements, reforms, or

I can answer that to the
13:39:15
So, yes, can any agency stand to be better as we move
17
18
forward?
19
Q.
20
future orders, you would agree that it's important for the MCSO
21
to obey the Court's orders and to do everything it can to
22
comply with the Court's orders, right?
Absolutely.
Well, whether its current existing orders or
IEN
DS
All right.
We can't predict the future, Mr. Young.
23
A.
24
caught the last part of your question.
25
Q.
FR
13:38:56
I apologize, Mr. Young.
Oh, sure.
13:39:36
They were adjusting the mike so I

You want to -13:39:52
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A.
-- please restate?
Q.
Well, I mean, this is important stuff, right?
Court's orders?
that you can muster to make sure that to the best extent
possible, the agency has complied with the Court's orders?
Obeying the
And you put every bit of energy and ingenuity
Is that a fair statement?
6
7
A.
very important, and yes, we put forth the utmost effort to make
sure that we complied and followed through.
Yes, sir.
A court order is -- a federal court order is
10
Q.
11
and the monitor staff, is that right?
12
A.
To the questions that were asked, yes, sir.
13
Q.
The monitor staff are former or present law enforcement
14
officers themselves, correct?
15
A.
A majority of them, yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
Now, you've testified to your interactions with the monitor
A.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
for us.
Objection, relevance.
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
IEN
22
Most of them, yes, that's right.
DS
21
13:40:51
With coordinating with CID, I can speak
Yes, I -- I think they're communicating and they are
23
working with CID with the feedback and input to move forward.
24
BY MR. YOUNG:
25
Q.
FR
13:40:40
I think --
19
20
13:40:21
And do you think they're doing a good job?
17
18
13:40:05
Okay.
You've read some of the monitor's reports about
13:41:07
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compliance, right?
A.
I've read them all, sir.
Q.
Okay.
It's the fifth report that was filed with this Court on October
16, 2015.
whether Ms. Zoratti would be able to give him a copy of that.

THE CLERK:
8
9
13:41:26
And I don't know whether you have a copy of that or
6
7
Did you read -- well, let me show you Exhibit 2952.
Do you want a hard copy or do you want
it up on the screen?
MR. YOUNG:
10
Well, both, actually.
11
convenient; it's a longish document.
12
BY MR. YOUNG:
13
Q.
That would be more
You have the cover sheet at least on the screen, Captain.

Have you seen that document before?
14
15
A.
This one I have not.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
Mr. Popolizio's question that as to Phase 2, you thought that
18
the agency, the MCSO, had achieved 25 percent compliance?
13:41:51
Now, I think you testified in response to
Did I get that right?
19
A.
Approximately, sir.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
credit for that, and has said that it's reached 28 percent
IEN
DS
20
13:42:16
Well, the monitor has given the MCSO a little more
23
compliance.
24
not familiar with?
25
A.
FR
13:41:40
Have you heard that, or is that something you're
I believe it was brought up in my deposition from the ACLU,
13:42:27
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the plaintiffs' counsel, the day that I did my deposition, yes.
Q.
that figure, give or take a few percentage points, is that
right?
A.
time I would say it was close to that, yes, sir.
Q.
now -- since the supplemental injunction was issued, correct?
A.
Just over two years, yes, sir.
10
Q.
And in that time, the monitor, at least -- and this is on
11
page 1 of the report if you want to look at it.
12
to ask for the admission of the report, but I want to have you
13
at least be able to refer to it, since I am going to ask some
14
questions about things -- facts that the monitor's noted.
Okay.
Yes.
So basically you're in agreement, basically, with
Again, I've been out of it for two months, but at the
And it's been two years -- more than two years, actually,
16
slight increase in compliance.
17
what the monitor says in the first sentence of the second
18
paragraph.
19
A.
20
document, so slight gains comparative to the quarter previous,
21
or slight gains from what?
22
Q.
13:43:18
Actually, "slight gains" is
Would you agree with that assessment?
I'm not seeing the whole
DS
Again, comparative to what?
13:43:41
IEN
Well, I mean, what the report says is slight gains during
23
this reporting period in its compliance with the provisions of
24
the order.
FR
13:42:58
I'm not going
In that report on page 1, the monitor has noted only a
15
25
13:42:41
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Objection, Your Honor.
He's reading
13:43:57
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from a document not in evidence.

THE COURT:
I don't think he's reading from it.
Overruled.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Do you agree with that assessment, Captain?
A.
Again, without having all the -- I left two months ago.
Not having all the facts in front of me, I could not make a
statement on that, other than if things were slow to progress,
there was a lot of training that was being developed that had
10
13:44:06
not been finalized.
13:44:25
Each period you gotta figure there's a start of
11
12
implementation efforts, there's a procedure to be followed.
13
And whether or not certain things, whether they be policy or
14
training, actually delivered, might be viewed at as a slow
15
process.
13:44:46
Again, what the monitor is stating there, if that is
16
17
their assessment, then again, I would need to read through the
18
report as far as what areas are they assessing that off of?
19
What failure for documentation?
So, I'm sorry, but just looking at the one page, if
DS
20
Where are we deficient?
21
you'd like me to, I can read through the entire report.
22
Q.
IEN
Well, as you sit here now, though, you don't have any basis
23
to contradict a conclusion that there have been just slight
24
gains during the reporting period, is that right?
25
A.
FR
13:44:58
I don't have any basis to contradict nor confirm.
I can
13:45:15
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tell you that CID, in their best forth efforts, continued the
progress to move forward.
matters of production request outside of the original order
were also being conducted, so as far as -THE COURT:
5
6
I can tell you also that other
Could you repeat that last one again?
wanted to catch it, and I was typing.

THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
Efforts with workload in
addition to the court order implementation, with the ITR
requests and property requests, may be the fact that
10
implementation was not happening at a faster pace, would be the
11
offer that I could probably give to you as far as more focus
12
was on production and getting those documents that were being
13
requested versus the implementation efforts, because it isn't
14
just one area collecting those documents.
15
BY MR. YOUNG:
16
Q.
17
that were found during the summer, was that an example of the
18
kind of document production that might have diverted attention
19
away from compliance with the injunction order?
20
A.
21
that I sat in in this court, sir, where it became known to me
22
and I assisted the marshal's office in gathering those
13:45:52
13:46:16
So, for example, for the effort devoted to the 1500 IDs
IEN
DS
I can't speak on the 1500 IDs, other than the very hearing
23
documents.
24
cannot comment on that.
25
Q.
FR
13:45:35
13:46:27
So as far as the actual matter, I cannot -- I
You had to rush off yourself, personally, on a Friday
13:46:45
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evening in order to deal with that issue, is that right?
A.
it was completed before the end of business that day, sir.
Q.
from an earlier failure to provide those 1500 IDs, would you
attribute, in part, the slow progress of the compliance to
things like that that you had to do to meet demands to produce
documents?
A.
I take the judge's orders seriously, and I made sure that
So, now, you know, assuming that the need for that resulted
I can't -- again, I can't say that, sir, because we
10
produced -- CID was not aware of the 1500 IDs.
11
production and we continued implementation efforts to the best
12
of our ability.
13
Q.
14
result of the 1500 IDs being found and then being ordered to be
15
handed over to the marshals, is that right?
16
A.
That is correct, sir.
17
Q.
And that time, at least, was not time that you had
18
available to spend on other compliance efforts, is that
19
correct?
20
A.
If that's how you would like to phrase it, yes, sir, then.
21
Q.
Turn to the, if you want, to page 136 of the monitor's
22
report.
We continued
DS
IEN
13:47:37
13:47:48
And the first sentence of the section on concluding
remarks up at the top says that, "The pace of improvement and
24
progress toward compliance is unacceptably slow."
FR
13:47:21
Well, you yourself, though, had to spend some time as a
23
25
13:47:03
You don't disagree with that, do you?
13:48:12
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A.
I do disagree with that, sir.
Q.
Now, let's turn to supervisor training.
important area of compliance with the Court's order, correct?
A.
Yes, sir, it is.
Q.
Okay.
relating to Deputy Armendariz, and the failures of supervision
that related to some of the internal investigations that have
been performed, right?
A.
That's an
You've heard of the various things that happened
I'm not directly aware of the internal investigation, sir,
10
but obviously there is word that some supervisory failures were
11
there.
12
Q.
13
supervisors, but training generally, a pillar of the order, of
14
the Court's order, is that right?
15
A.
In my opinion, yes, sir.
16
Q.
That's right.
Right.
13:48:46
In fact, you called training, not just of
13:48:59
Well, would you have any reason to disagree with the
17
monitor's conclusion which is stated on page 1 of the report --
19
actually, it's page 3 of the monitor's report, in the fourth
20
paragraph and the first sentence -- that the development of the
21
next major -- well, the development of supervisor training,
22
I'll paraphrase, is in disarray.
IEN
DS
18
23
13:49:19
Do you have any disagreement with that finding?
24
A.
25
helping make sure that that progress was being done.
FR
13:48:27
I can speak for prior to my departure, CID was involved in

Prior to
13:49:41
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that it was under the Training Bureau, so that would be a
question for the Training Bureau.
Q.
you have any disagreement with the conclusion that the
supervisor training is in disarray?
A.
No, I do not.
Q.
In fact, under paragraph 52 of the order -- and you can
look at page 56 of the report, just to have a convenient way of
looking at the language of the order -- the supervisor training
10
All right.
Well, just asking about what you know of, do
was supposed to be delivered by the end of March 2014.
12
A.
Yes, it does, sir.
13
Q.
But it wasn't, is that right?
14
A.
That's correct.
15
Q.
That's not acceptable.
16
A.
Not wholeheartedly, sir.
17
Q.
Well, you'd agree at least that it's not ideal that
18
supervisor training that was supposed to be delivered more than
19
19 months ago has not yet been done?
20
A.
Agreed.
21
Q.
Now, in September 2014 the MCSO suggested bifurcating the
22
supervisor training because EIS and some other components
DS
IEN
FR
13:50:35
13:50:48
weren't ready, but some other components were ready.
24
25
13:50:20
Does that ring a bell to you?
11
23
13:49:59
A.
Do you recall that?
I do, sir.
13:51:05
Q.
plaintiffs at that time agreed with that proposal that you
had -- MCSO had made, bifurcate the training --
A.
plaintiffs' counsel made, yes.
Q.
if you want to look, to some language on page 58 of the
monitor's report, which talks about some outlines being
presented.
10
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Okay.
And do you recall that the monitor and the
Not me directly, sir, but what MCSO and the monitor and
13:51:23
And I'm going to refer actually, just for your convenience,
First on December 17, 2014, there was an outline
for the supervisor training.
13:51:43
Do you recall that happening?
11
12
A.
I believe I do, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
lacked critical components, correct?
15
A.
Correct, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
presented, but the monitor thought that that also still lacked
18
required components, correct?
19
A.
Yes, from the feedback, yes, sir.
20
Q.
And then look at page 59 of the report.
21
basically says that the supervisor training has seen
22
essentially no progress.
And then the monitor concluded that that outline
Then on January 27, 2015, a second draft outline was
DS
IEN
23
The monitor
13:52:09
You see that?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
13:51:54
You don't have any reason to disagree with that, do
13:52:27
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you?
A.
Not until the end of that reporting period, sir.
Q.
So during this period of time, which actually goes -- if
you look at page 59 -- until June 30, 2015, you were, as
commander of CID, not able to get the supervisor training
completed, is that correct?
A.
coordinate the efforts of our Training Bureau to make sure that
they get it completed --
I don't get the supervisor training completed.
We help
10
Q.
Okay.
11
A.
-- so --
12
Q.
Well, the collective effort of CID and anyone else didn't
13
get that job done, is that correct?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
Now, the monitors also noted that there have been some
16
personnel changes in both CID, which I think you testified to
17
yourself, and in PSB.
13:53:08
A.
I'm aware of the one personally affecting me, sir, and I'm
20
aware that the former captain has now transferred from PSB.
21
Q.
22
those personnel changes could affect the efficiency of
DS
19
IEN
Okay.
13:53:41
Would you agree with the monitor's assessment that
23
compliance, at least in the short term?
24
yourself, I think --
FR
13:53:21
Are you aware of those changes?
18
25
13:52:53
In fact, you,
Well, would you agree with that?
13:54:00
No.
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A.
Again, I have a very open communication with the new
commander of -- at least I can only speak for the Court
commander of that area; secondly, the lieutenant that is there
has been there since December; and third, I feel that as the
agency continues to grow, people like myself that have a
foundational knowledge of the order and the implementation
efforts, returning to the field is a good thing to help spread
that knowledge to that staff.
I have open communication with the
10
Q.
I think you said that you had some unique knowledge
11
relating to day-to-day implementation as a result of the two
12
years you'd spent in CID.
13:54:35
13
14
A.
In-depth knowledge.
15
Q.
In-depth knowledge.
16
A.
Not unique, yes, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
spend in your duties as commander of the patrol in the Lake
19
District?
20
A.
I'm sorry?
21
Q.
Whatever your current title is, which is the commander of
22
Lake Patrol?
DS
IEN
13:54:47
Approximately what percentage of your time do you
13:54:59
23
A.
That is correct.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
duties as commander of Lake Patrol?
FR
13:54:17
How much of your time currently do you spend on your

13:55:11
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A.
Solely to Lake Patrol?
I would say a good portion of them,
60, 70 percent.
Q.
other things that take up your time?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
What are those?
A.
In a couple depositions recently, testifying today; I've
also dealt with the CID captain on a couple of occasions
discussing matters with them; we've had a monitor site visit
So of the remaining 40 -- 30 or 40 percent, are there any
13:55:27
10
out at the district; and the majority is with the new interface
11
of BlueTeam and TraCS system, now learning it from an
12
operational end versus an administrative end, so I'm actually
13
utilizing the system as a district commander.
14
majority of my time is spent, sir.

THE COURT:
15
THE COURT:
17
THE COURT:
19
BlueTeam and TraCS, sir.
No.
Okay.
Thank you.
BY MR. YOUNG:
21
Q.
22
another important area under the order, correct?
DS
20
13:56:19
IEN
The MCSO, going now to the issue of data collection, that's
23
A.
Correct, sir.
24
Q.
I mean, if you don't get the data collection right, it will
25
be very hard for the monitors to determine whether the agency
FR
13:56:07
And you didn't mean BlueTeam and IAPro.
THE WITNESS:
18
That's where a
Did you say BlueTeam and TraCS?
THE WITNESS:
16
13:55:43
13:56:28
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is in compliance with the Court's orders, is that right?
So
it's important.
A.
Data collection is important, sir, yes.
Q.
It was only very recently that the MCSO changed its traffic
stop forms to permit the recording of someone's race or
ethnicity as being Hispanic, is that right?
A.
vehicle traffic stop or contact forms?
Q.
Are you talking about the citations, or the traffic --
Well, let me just refer to page 25 of the monitor's report.
10
I guess the monitor refers to it as the Arizona traffic ticket
11
and complaint.
12
the -- this reporting period is referred to in the monitor's
13
report.
14
to the monitor, did not allow someone to record Hispanic as the
15
race or ethnicity, is that correct?
16
A.
17
It's mandated by the state.
18
Q.
19
allowed recording Hispanic as a race or ethnicity?
20
A.
We did have a form that did record that, sir.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
start of the compliance with the Court's order, correct?
13:57:09
At least that's what's been implemented during
And the previous form, the traffic citation, according
13:57:31
That is an Arizona state form, sir.
We cannot change that.
IEN
DS
Did anything prevent the MCSO from having a form that
13:57:48
So that -- and that could have been used from the
23
A.
24
has been utilized since April of 2014 to collect that data, and
25
does have that origin as a selection.
FR
13:56:43
It was used from the start, sir.
The vehicle contact form
13:58:11
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I believe you might be confusing the fact that there
1
2
was an inconsistency with the Arizona state traffic citation
form that is mandated by the state that does not allow that; it
only allows White, I believe a few other origins, but Hispanic
was not a choice.
13:58:33
So the difficulty there was we can't put "Hispanic" on
6
7
a state traffic form, but we can put it on the vehicle contact
form, which back to your data collection that you're referring
to, we wanted consistency.
So now it is being left blank on
10
the traffic form, but it is being collected on the vehicle
11
contact form, sir.
12
Q.
And when did that change happen?
13
A.
That change happened, I couldn't tell you for sure.
14
after the system went into place when deputies were confused on
15
worrying about capturing the correct information on the contact
16
form, and not having that ability to put it on the state-issued
17
form.
18
Q.
19
that change occurred?
20
A.
21
2015.
22
Q.
It was
13:59:06
Well, can you give me your best approximation as to when
DS
Best approximation was summer of 2015 or late spring of
13:59:22
IEN
Could that change have occurred earlier?
23
A.
24
that, sure, it could have -- it could have happened any time.
25
But again, there was a lot of things that we were still testing
FR
13:58:49
Sir, I can't answer what I don't know.
The feedback from
13:59:39
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the programs, getting people to utilize the programs, and
getting that data and feedback to actually be able to look at
it and get some good assessments on how effective it was.
Q.
someone's race or ethnicity as Hispanic would be pretty
relevant, right?
information.
Well, in this lawsuit, given the context, recording
I mean, that would be pretty important
8
9
A.
Again, sir, they already had that on the vehicle contact
10
form.
11
that's being tabulated.
12
match that same information on a state-issued form that did not
13
allow "Hispanic" to be on that form.
14
were correcting -- they were collecting the correct perceived
15
ethnicity on the vehicle contact form from the git-go.
It was being recorded.
It's in the TraCS system, and
14:00:10
The inconsistency was we couldn't
So the reality was they
14:00:26
The problem that you're seeing that the monitor is
16
17
pointing out is that it was inconsistent with the state
18
citation form that we have then addressed, leave it blank,
19
because we can't make the state change that.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
It's not our form.
22
Q.
-- the change that was made, you estimate in the summer of
IEN
DS
And --
23
2015 to resolve that inconsistency, why wasn't that change made
24
earlier?
25
A.
FR
13:59:59
Because again, I don't know that we had the feedback or the
14:00:43
14:00:53
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knowledge of that any sooner.
The problem was it was being
left blank.
state was fine, we're getting the answer back to us that that
could be left blank, sir.
Q.
that that question should be asked?
A.
issue arose.
Q.
We needed to make sure that the courts and the
And when did it first occur to the MCSO, in your knowledge,
I don't recall, sir.
That I don't know what -- when that
Well, you knew about the Arizona form back in October of
10
2013, correct?
11
A.
12
The citation is an Arizona state form.
13
Q.
14
ultimately decided to do to resolve that difference could have
15
been done earlier.
Okay.
THE COURT:
14:01:44
THE COURT:
19
Objection, relevance.
Overruled.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
18
I'm sorry, Your Honor?
Overruled.
DS
You may answer.

MR. YOUNG:
I'll rephrase, in case the witness forgot
23
BY MR. YOUNG:
24
Q.
25
the resolution that you ultimately did in the summer of 2015
FR
14:02:01
the question.
IEN
22
So you could have checked to see whether what you
MR. POPOLIZIO:
17
21
14:01:30
We've known about the Arizona form for many years, sir.
16
20
14:01:10
You could have asked whether you were permitted to adopt

14:02:11
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much earlier than that, right?
A.
collect the perceived ethnicity.
developed titled the Vehicle Contact Form to capture that.
Again, not necessarily.
The issue was the order told us to

A form from MCSO was
MCSO was collectively and correctly obtaining that
5
6
information in the TraCS database.
Bureau of Internal Oversight started doing some inspections and
audits and the monitor noted that, Well, if you're putting
"Hispanic" here, why is there a blank on the citation?
It simply wasn't until the
So that's where that deficiency, why we have the
10
14:02:52
11
Bureau of Internal Oversight, why we have a Monitoring Team
12
that provides us that feedback to address.
13
exactly that specific date or time, but we obviously took that
14
and started the reactionary measures to get it corrected, sir.
15
Q.
16
that deficiency first came to your knowledge?
17
A.
18
order.
19
systems come into place that we have to address.
20
two months?
21
don't know, sir.
22
were notified of it.
I don't know
What's your best estimate or knowledge as to the time when
14:03:12
Sir, I -- there was a lot of things on my plate with the

I could not tell you.
Did it take six months?
DS
IEN
There was deficiencies as
Did it take
Did it take a year?
14:03:31
But I know that we addressed it as soon as we

And understand that CID doesn't
23
necessarily change forms; we also have to make sure that other
24
respective units in the agency do so.
25
Q.
FR
14:02:30
Now, there have been issues raised by the monitor that you
14:03:49
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know about as to the thresholds for alerts as to the traffic
stop data, is that right?
A.
Say that again, sir?
Q.
Well, let's look at page 5 of the monitor's report, down
toward the bottom.
inadequacies of the setting of alert thresholds used for data
analysis.
A.
No.
Q.
It's in that section on traffic stop documentation and data
And it notes deficiencies -- or, actually,
You see that?
Talking about the traffic stop data --
10
collection and review, and in the middle of the paragraph
11
there's a sentence that begins, "We also continue to note."
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
And it refers to inadequacies relating to the setting of
15
alert thresholds?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Do you disagree with the monitor's assessment as to that
18
issue?
19
A.
20
the outside contractual support that MCSO is now receiving from
21
ASU should bring statistically sound, we did not have
22
methodology, nor did we have the technical background to then
14:04:47
IEN
DS
I think, again, if you continue to read on with, however,
23
start statistically looking at and analyzing traffic stop data.
24
The agency responded by reaching out to ASU.
FR
14:04:35
You see that sentence?
12
25
14:04:09
So yes, maybe we had some inadequacies.
Again, along
14:04:55
14:05:18
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the way -- and that's progression -- we put a system in place.
We have to build around it and we have to continue to improve
it.
to be perfect, sir.
Day 1 when the switch is turned on doesn't mean it's going
So yes, are there going to be inadequacies in every
5
6
program and in every software program we utilize?
The feedback will assist us in being able to improve upon that
and correct that.
Q.
Potentially.
Well, part of what we're all interested in here is
10
continuing improvement --
11
A.
Absolutely.
12
Q.
-- do you agree with that?
14:05:48
Now, there were some deficiencies noted in connection
13
14
with paragraph 91 of the supplemental order, and I'll refer you
15
to the section of the monitor report starting at page 112.
16
you'll see that there's a bolded par -- section reference to
17
April 2015 there.
18
Where it was reported that of 35 reports, 60 percent had no
19
deficiencies noted.
21
MR. POPOLIZIO:
14:06:09
It's on the screen.
14:06:45
He's reading
from a document not in evidence.
23
MR. YOUNG:
No.
24
THE COURT:
Overruled.
25
THE WITNESS:
FR
And
Do you see that?
IEN
22
That paragraph there.
DS
20
14:05:31
I do see it in the document, sir.
14:06:55
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
factual matter, correct?
A.
I can ask it this way:
I'm sorry.
You don't disagree with that as a
Say again?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
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BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
disagreeing with that conclusion, that 60 percent had no
deficiencies noted?
Well, if you know, Captain, do you have any basis for
10
A.
11
directed to the Bureau of Internal Oversight, who does the
12
inspections and audits, sir.
13
Q.
14
57 percent had no deficiencies noted.
I would not have that knowledge.
That would be more
You have no basis for disagreeing with that, either,
16
correct?
17
A.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
19
Well, I think he's asked him if he
doesn't.
I think he said:
21
with it.
That strikes me as establishing a lack of foundation.
DS
20
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
24
FR
25
14:07:38
I have no --
18
23
14:07:16
How about as to May 2015 that's on the next page,
15
22
14:07:06
You have no basis for disagreeing
14:07:50
Well, Your Honor, I believe Mr. Young
is just reading statistics without any foundation.

THE COURT:
I'm going to overrule that objection to
the extent he can pose questions on cross-examination.
14:08:07
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BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Do you have the question in mind, Captain?
A.
Say that again, sir.
Q.
Okay.
conclusion that as of May 2015, 57 percent of the reports for
traffic-related events had no deficiencies?
So do you have any basis for disagreeing with the
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
Objection, beyond the scope of direct.
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
I do not have the statistical
10
information or the actual inspections or audits to confirm nor
11
deny, sir.
12
BY MR. YOUNG:
13
Q.
14
at the paragraph on June 2015 -- you don't have any basis for
15
disagreeing with the conclusion that in that month, 69 percent
16
of the traffic reports had no deficiencies -MR. POPOLIZIO:
18
BY MR. YOUNG:
19
Q.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
Again, I don't have the statistical data
23
to show one or the other, sir.
24
BY MR. YOUNG:
25
Q.
FR
14:09:09
You may answer the question.
IEN
22
14:08:54
-- is that right?
DS
21
14:08:39
On the next page -- just for your reference, you can look
17
20
14:08:17
Now, another important aspect of the Court's remedial order
14:09:21
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was EIS, is that right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
the end of October 2014, correct?
A.
Q.
Okay.
a year, past that point, is that right?
A.
We're a year past that point, sir.
Q.
Yeah.
10
A.
Again, I don't know the status of where it stands today.
11
It is being utilized on a daily basis by the supervisors to a
12
level to encompass the EIS system, supervisory notes, and a lot
13
of the supervisory requirements of the order.
Full implementation of EIS was supposed to happen by
14:09:41
Now we're about a year, actually a little more than
And it's not been fully implemented, correct?
It may not be fully developed.
14
Again, I'm not the one
15
to ask that; it would be the Early Intervention Unit, sir.
16
Q.
17
examination.
18
A.
Yes, because I do utilize it, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
monitor's report -- that as to the paragraph relating to the
21
implementation of EIS, both as to Phase 1 and Phase 2, the
22
monitor's noted that the agency's not in compliance.
Do you recall that?
And you'll note -- actually, it's on page 97 of the
IEN
23
You have no basis to disagree with that, correct?
24
MR. POPOLIZIO:
25
THE COURT:
FR
14:10:21
Well, I think you mentioned it during your direct
DS
Okay.
14:09:58
14:10:34
Overruled.
14:10:58
THE WITNESS:
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Again, I don't work in EIS.
I can tell
you it is being utilized.
A lot of these programs, until it is
fully implemented, we've got a good portion.
find bugs in the system; we're going to find things that we
still need to improve upon.
We're going to
14:11:16
So Mr. Young, yes, there's a lot that's still being
6
7
foundationally built and being utilized, and until it's
completely trained and up and running to the hundred percent,
yes, we might be missing that target.
But the thing is is
10
we're improving day to day to make sure that they're efficient
11
and effective, and for reform in accordance and requirement of
12
the order, sir.
13
BY MR. YOUNG:
14
Q.
15
alerts from 111 in 2015 to 346 in September 2015.
16
referring, actually, to page 86 of the report, so -- at least
17
in part.
18
report.
Now, the monitor noted that there had been an increase in

And I'm
14:11:50
And some of this data may actually not be in the
But you see on page 86 it refers to there being 111
19
alerts in May 2015?
21
A.
I do see that, sir.
22
Q.
Actually, it was in April.
IEN
DS
20
14:12:20
Last paragraph.
23
A.
I see April 2015 there were a total of 111 alerts.
24
Q.
Right.
25
had designated 70 of those 111 as false alerts.
FR
14:11:30
And then the next sentence finds that EIU personnel

14:12:44
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You don't have any reason to disagree with that, do
1
2
you?
A.
wouldn't be the one to ask that as to why.
couldn't disagree or agree.
respectfully, it should be asked of the EIU unit of why those
false alerts occurred.
Q.
being false is not a good thing?
I have absolutely no knowledge of that, sir.
So again, I
So there's no -- I
That would be something,
14:13:00
Well, would you agree that having a majority of the alerts
10
A.
Yes and no.
Yes, in the sense that we don't like to see
11
that; but no, it might be a good thing because now we're seeing
12
that the system may need some additional improvement in
13
tracking.
So again, not having the basis of what these false
14
15
alerts were tied to, it may have nothing to do with the order,
16
because again, they may be over and above.
17
policy, MCSO policy issue, or something of that nature.
18
not know what those -- triggered those alerts, again, it may be
19
good feedback as to that happening, so we can go back in and
20
fix and improve the system so that we get verified alerts.
21
Q.
22
your department?
14:13:32
Might be the
So to
DS
14:13:51
IEN
While you were in CID, was fixing those problems not in
23
A.
24
actual people that were -- or division that was responsible for
25
that was where it was housed, and that would be the Early
FR
14:13:17
Addressing those problems would be in my department.
The
14:14:07
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Intervention Unit.
As the order states that the Early
Intervention Unit would house that software and that program,
and the technical skills to be able to maintain that.
CID, sir.
Q.
monitor there's an observation that the MCSO lacks any policy
on alerts.
A.
Lacks any policy on what, sir?
Q.
Alerts.
10
A.
Again, the EIS, or the Early Intervention Unit, would be
11
the one that has developed that policy, and I believe it has
12
been submitted to the monitors and the plaintiffs' counsel for
13
review and approval.
14
protocol was being developed relative to the Arizona State
15
University coming on board and looking at that statistical
16
analysis to build the methodology and conduct that analysis,
17
which takes time to have that data to do.
Not in
Well, I'll tell you that on page 6 of the report of the
Is that right?
If it lacks that, that's because, again,
19
again, that answer would come from the Early Intervention Unit.
20
Q.
21
expressing some concern about the EIS system and what EIU
22
personnel are doing.
DS
Now, the monitor, on page 92, makes some observations
IEN
24
FR
25
14:14:51
14:15:10
So I'm speculating that that may be the reason, but
18
23
14:14:20
I don't know, do you have that?
14:15:33
It's the paragraph
that begins with the words "In addition."

You don't have any basis to disagree with what's said
14:16:09
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there, correct?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
MR. YOUNG:
Well, let me narrow the question a bit.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
the monitor observes that the process is largely qualitative
and is reliant on EIU personnel judgment.
About six lines down, the monitor observes, quote -- well,
Do you see that?
8
9
A.
I do, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
observation, do you?
You don't have any basis to disagree with that
MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
THE COURT:
13
THE COURT:
15
Your Honor, may we have a sidebar?
Yes.
14:16:54
(Bench conference on the record.)
16
MR. POPOLIZIO:
17
Your Honor, the reason why I'm
objecting is that Mr. Young is simply going through a report,
19
it's not in evidence, there's no foundation for it, and he's
20
basically testifying from the report as if he is the monitor.
21
And I think it's inappropriate.
DS
18
IEN
THE COURT:
to the extent that you raise it, but the report is part of the
24
record; it's part of how we proceed in this.
FR
14:17:32
Well, I guess I understand that objection
23
25
14:16:44
Overruled.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
14
22
14:16:24
You attempted to establish through your direct
14:17:45
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testimony how much effort and energy is going into compliance
in all aspects, and what I'm taking Mr. Young's -- what I'm
taking Mr. Young's questions to establish is the lack of
knowledge of this witness as to what the full intent -- or what
the full compliance is.
14:18:05
The questions -- you know, maybe, Mr. Young, I will
6
7
sustain the objection to the extent that the questions are
phrased in a way saying, You don't have any basis to disagree
with it.
But I think the witness is correctly answering that
10
he doesn't have any basis to agree or disagree with it.
11
it's doing is establishing a lack of familiarity on the
12
witness's part with the extent to which the order is currently
13
being implemented.
14
that basis.
Your Honor, to the extent that it is
16
in the record, though, the monitor, or no one else, has
17
testified as to any foundation or the factual basis for what's
18
in the record from which Mr. Young is testifying from.

THE COURT:
19
21
you can take issue with anything the monitor says in his
22
reports.
IEN
DS
since the very beginning of this lawsuit by which you can --
24
FR
25
14:18:35
Well, we have established a procedure
20
23
14:18:19
So I'm going to overrule the objection on
MR. POPOLIZIO:
15
So all
14:18:51
I don't know whether you took advantage of that
procedure or not, but I don't recall that you did.

When the monitor files his report, you have -- draft
report, he gives it to you, you have the opportunity to
14:19:08
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comment, just as he's done with every report in this case.
don't know whether you replied, and if you did, it's certainly
an appropriate area if you want to get into it on redirect.
That would be my response.
But that is the procedure by which we have operated
5
6
since the beginning of the -- of the monitor's participation in
this case.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
11
MR. POPOLIZIO:
but --
THE COURT:
14
MR. YOUNG:
16
pending.
Thank you.
Yes, there is, and I can answer it, sir.
Do I agree wholeheartedly?
19
Again, you're picking out
pieces of a sentence within that entire paragraph that's
21
outside of the context.
22
where you're going with it.
DS
20
IEN
14:19:42
Your Honor, I forget whether a question is
THE WITNESS:
18
14:20:21
If you read just that sentence, I see

But if you read the entire
23
paragraph, you can see that the MCSO is working with
24
contractors to identify and fill in the deficiencies with
25
context to providing the analytical and methodology relative to
FR
14:19:30
If I could think of one, I would,
(Bench conference concluded.)
15
17
Okay?
sidebar, since it takes so long for everybody to gather here?
12
13
Okay.
Is there any other issues that we need to take up at
10
14:19:21
14:20:38
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this type of data.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
order to make statistically valid assessments about whether
discriminatory policing is occurring?
Do you think the monitor needs a quantitative protocol in
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
7
8
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Sustained.
Have you considered at all in your role, Captain, the issue
10
of whether protocols in this area should be quantitative?
11
A.
12
developed.
13
that methodology by reaching out to a consultant and vendor
14
through the Arizona State University --
15
Q.
My question --
16
A.
-- and getting the feedback from the Monitor Team, as well
17
as anybody else that's providing that input, to help develop
18
that and get a quantitative measure, both from the monitor and
19
from our internal auditing mechanisms.
20
Q.
21
whether the protocol should be quantitative?
22
A.
14:21:17
I believe the order states that the methodology shall be

And again, the MCSO is in process of developing
DS
Well, do you have an opinion one way or the other about
14:21:39
14:21:55
IEN
Sir, I go off of facts; I don't have an opinion one way or
23
the other.
24
happening, and as long as we're progressing and meeting the
25
measures in the public eye as well as the efficiency within the
FR
14:21:00
I look at the fact that as long as reform is
14:22:14
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office, we're on the right track.
Q.
could be yet a further improvement?
Is it possible, in your view, that a quantitative protocol
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
I think I've sustained that objection
before; I'll sustain it again.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
supplemental injunction that are not being complied with now
Now, there are a number of supervision requirements in the
10
because EIS is not fully implemented, is that right?
11
A.
12
complied with because maybe that you don't have the validation
13
or documentation to show that does not mean that they're not
14
being complied with, sir.
15
Q.
16
monitor's report, says a supervisor should use EIS to track
17
various things.
I believe that may be an opinion, sir.
14:22:55
They're not being
Well, paragraph 95, which is reproduced in page 119 of the
14:23:13
Do you see that?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
And on the next page the monitor finds that the MCSO is not
21
in compliance either as to Phase 1 or Phase 2 with that
22
paragraph.
IEN
DS
19
23
14:23:34
Do you have any basis for disagreeing with that?
24
A.
25
standardized fashion, but I can tell you as a patrol captain
FR
14:22:30
Yes, I do, sir.
Again, it may not be done in a

14:23:48
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that supervises two lieutenants and 14 sergeants that they are
capturing that information.
not meet the threshold of the documentation and validation
necessary to show the compliance with the order; it's being
done in practice.
It's being done.
14:24:07
Again, we're not perfect.
It may, again,
The system went into effect
about a year ago.
We still have some ironing to do to get the
wrinkles out of it.
supervisor training is a big function in this, so that the
We still have training.
And I agree,
10
supervisors know what to do and they know how to do it in a
11
standardized fashion.
So because it shows it on a report that we're not in
12
13
compliance doesn't mean that it is not in practice and being
14
done, and we're in violation of a court order, sir.
15
Q.
16
fully compliant, right?
17
A.
Absolutely, Mr. Young.
18
Q.
Now, one of the important parts of supervision is
19
documenting interactions with deputies.
Well, it would be good to get it so that it actually is
DS
20
A.
Talking about the supervisory notes, sir?
22
Q.
Well --
IEN
21
23
A.
Traffic stop data?
24
Q.
-- my question didn't refer specifically to that; I was
25
just referring to documenting interactions the supervisors have
FR
14:24:24
14:24:44
14:25:00
14:25:11
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with deputies.
Is that important?
A.
Yes, it is, sir.
Q.
Okay.
the period covered by the monitor's report, performance
evaluations are not capturing the required information about
documentation of interactions with deputies?
Now, is it correct that at least as of the end of
14:25:32
And I refer you to page 6 of the monitor's report, the
7
8
heading, Court Order X - Supervision and Evaluations of Officer
Performance.
Do you have any reason to disagree with the
10
11
14:26:08
deficiencies that are listed there?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
THE COURT:
13
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
14
Again, the EPA has not been revised.
15
the office still utilizing EPAs and supervisor notes?
16
they are, to address those.
However, you are correct.
17
Yes,
19
meeting the order's requirements.
20
meantime utilizing BlueTeam.
DS
with the monitor, has not been developed to the level of
It is being noted in the
will house a skyrise.
The steps along the way are putting the
23
system in place.
24
utilized as a facet to provide the information needed in EPA.
25
So as we're ironing out that system and getting that up to
FR
14:26:42
Again, we're building a foundation that eventually
IEN
22
14:26:25
The EPA, in consultation
18
21
Is
My understanding is that BlueTeam will be
14:27:00
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speed, then this is the next building block on that.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
this is -- actually reports a finding that of 47 supervisors
who were randomly inspected, only one of them, 2 percent, was
found to be in compliance as to the subject of paragraph 22 of
the supplemental injunction.
Now, I'm shifting now to page 15 of the monitor report, and
Do you see that?
8
9
A.
I'm reading that now, sir.
10
THE WITNESS:
11
14:28:00
Okay.
12
BY MR. YOUNG:
13
Q.
Do you have any information to contradict that finding?
14
A.
I don't have information one way or the other on that, sir;
15
that was a BIO inspection.
16
Q.
17
activity reports, it can't be determined whether supervisors
18
are providing on-scene guidance, is that right?
19
A.
20
will add that that is something that's a work in progress.
21
They are completing daily activity reports.
22
computer-aided dispatch system that's being utilized.
14:28:14
Since neither deputies nor supervisors are completing daily
DS
That's what the monitor states in the report.
IEN
23
However, I
14:28:37
We have a
Right now I think it's just a discussion and
24
formality -- and I'll bring you back to kind of how we opened
25
up -- the office did not have a good recordkeeping or document
FR
14:27:27
14:28:51
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system.
We do have systems in place now that are capturing the
required data.
and our legal team and plaintiffs to talk about how that system
is to be utilized to capture the data that they would like.
It's, again, just consulting with the monitor
If you pull a CAD report on every deputy sheriff, it
5
6
shows their daily activity from the time they log on to the
time they secure, sir.
documentation-wise in court, I know we need to prove it by a
piece of paper.
So as far as that goes, again,
But the fact that it's actually in practice in
10
the field, and if you look at our CAD dispatch reports and the
11
daily activity of any reports taken or citations issued, that
12
is being captured, turned in, and reviewed.
13
Q.
14
since we're all a work in progress, I think you would agree
15
with me, right, that actual accomplishment is something to be
16
desired.
I think you said that this is a work in progress.
14:29:33
And
14:29:55
17
A.
Goals and accomplishments are definitely to be desired,
19
yes, sir.
20
Q.
Daily activity reports are not being done, is that right?
21
A.
No, that is not correct, sir.
22
documentation needed to show the compliance of it may not be
IEN
DS
18
14:30:04
The actual physical
23
hitting the nail on the head, but CAD reporting, every report
24
that is pulled, a deputy sheriff does do that activity, whether
25
it be a traffic stop stop, they're filling out the forms, an
FR
14:29:12
14:30:33
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accident report.
Again, there are forms and documents.
They
just aren't conclusively standardized to be able to provide to
the monitor of what they want to see, and we are working on
systems to be able to capture that.
We believe that our CAD, MCSO believes that our CAD,
5
6
our computer-aided dispatch program, shows that.
are utilizing that to get every call for service on that, as
well as any disposition codes that are relevant to taking a
report or completing a traffic stop, and the list of gamut of
The deputies
10
the calls and service that we respond to, sir.
11
done.
12
Q.
13
captured in the CAD data, correct?
14
A.
What would that be, sir?
15
Q.
Well, things that aren't captured -- well, aren't there
16
things that a deputy can do that aren't called in, that
17
therefore don't constitute the name or the time of the stop
18
that wouldn't be captured in the CAD data?
19
A.
20
utilizer -- we have to notify Dispatch of our calls for
21
service, our on-view activity, if that's what you're referring
22
to, where a call didn't come in but we actually saw something
So it is being
14:31:16
There are aspects of a deputy's activities that are not
IEN
14:31:27
The
DS
I'm not following you, sir.
23
that was a violation.
24
order to call that out, especially if it's a traffic stop, and
25
the reason for it, sir.
FR
14:30:54
14:31:52
And we have an obligation under the
14:32:08
Q.
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Let's turn to page 16 of the monitor's report.
Now, there is a -- an observation there that the
2
3
monitor is not able to determine if the entries on biased --
bias-based policing include the supervisor's requirement and
reiteration the discriminatory policy is unacceptable.
You'd agree that that kind of showing is required for
6
7
compliance under the order, is that right?
A.
was just pulled up.
10
14:32:59
Q.
Again, I'm just -- what paragraph are you referring to?
It
Yeah, it's the paragraph that begins "We found."
No, actually it's the paragraph that begins "While the
11
12
detention audits."
13
A.
Towards the bottom.
14
Q.
Do you any basis to disagree with that paragraph in the
15
monitor's report?
16
A.
17
I don't have any data to support one way or the other, sir.
18
And it refers you to the MCSO BIO website, which is available
19
on the Internet to anybody, so maybe that would substantiate or
20
provide that answer.
21
Q.
22
identify and address misconduct, whether they do so is not part
That's towards the bottom.

Thank you, sir.
14:33:40
Again, you're referring to the BIO inspection and audits.
DS
14:33:53
IEN
The monitor found that while supervisors are required to
23
of their performance evaluations.
24
part of their performance evaluations?
25
A.
FR
14:33:13
Partially correct.
Is that correct, it's not
It does not delineate -- again, we're
14:34:15
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consulting with the monitor about development of the EPAs where
it will clearly define in our EPA template to have that
information.
Currently, if somebody addresses a behavioral concern
4
5
and/or discipline is received, it should be, per policy, the
employee performance appraisal policy, should be noted in the
employee's performance appraisal.
So again, it's not in final form.
8
9
If you're asking
that the EPA has not been revised to reflect that as a
10
standardized portion within that, no, it has not been done.
11
However, MCSO policy does direct the supervisor to make
12
notation of that.
13
Q.
14
that effective?
15
A.
16
speak for right now.
17
the bureau chief of personnel is aware of this change.
18
it's been discussed at a couple of site visits by the monitor
19
team about -- in conjunction and discussion with the Monitor
20
Team to revise that EPA.
Again, I've been out for two and a half months, so I can't
But over the course of time I know that
I know
employee performance appraisal or supervisor appraisal, but I
24
do not know the status as of today
FR
14:35:35
will integrate as part of the employee's supervisory --
23
25
14:35:08
The talk that I'm aware of is that the BlueTeam system
IEN
22
14:34:54
Something happening right now to accomplish that, to make
DS
21
14:34:33
THE COURT:
The BlueTeam system would or would not?
14:35:48
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THE WITNESS:
The BlueTeam -- sorry.
The BlueTeam
system would beat the appraisal.
The idea behind it is as the
supervisors are doing bimonthly notes on their employees
relative to traffic stop data, analysis of traffic stop data,
and addressing any concerns or observations, that that then
would incorporate and become the employee performance
appraisal.
just how is that going to come out in its final form, sir?
BY MR. YOUNG:
And I believe the Monitor Team is on board.
It's
10
Q.
11
that will be accomplished, is that correct?
12
A.
Again, sir, I don't have that answer for you, no.
13
Q.
It would be an important thing for supervisors to be
14
evaluated based, at least in part, on how they address and
15
investigate misconduct, correct?
16
A.
17
one of the requirements of the order.
18
important.
19
Q.
20
reports be reviewed by supervisors within 72 hours, correct?
21
A.
Yes, it does, sir.
22
Q.
Apparently, there's no documentation that would allow
You don't know of any particular day on which you think
14:36:22
14:36:41
Everything in this order's important, sir, so yes, that is

We consider it
IEN
DS
Paragraph 93 of the Court's order requires that incident
23
determination as to whether that requirement is being complied
24
with, is that right?
25
A.
FR
14:36:05
That is not correct, sir.
14:37:04
14:37:23
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Q.
Well, let's turn to page 118 of the monitor's report.
It's
actually page 117 and 118 that deal with paragraph 93, which
has that 72-hour requirement.
And in the last paragraph of that section, which is in
4
5
the middle of page 118, the monitor notes that there are still
reports that are being turned in without the date on which they
were turned in, and most vehicle crash reports don't have
signatures or dates of supervisor review.

Do you see that?
9
10
A.
I do, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
right?
14:38:17
You don't have any basis for disagreeing with that,
MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
THE WITNESS:
14
THE WITNESS:
16
MR. YOUNG:
17
Ob --
I do, sir.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
15
Withdrawn.
14:38:31
Would you like me to answer, sir?
No, I think you answered my question.
I'm
18
going to try to formulate another question.
19
BY MR. YOUNG:
20
Q.
21
pages 118 and 119 of the monitor's report.
22
finds that the agency is not in compliance with that portion of
IEN
DS
How about paragraph 94 of the order, which is discussed on
14:38:45
There the monitor
23
the order.
24
A.
Again refer to the paragraph.
25
Q.
Yeah, it's actually -- and I really -- do you have the
FR
14:37:52
Do you see that?

The very top portion of 119?
14:39:15
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paper version of the report, or are you just looking at the
screen?
A.
Screen's much better for me, sir.
Q.
Okay.
118 of the report.
the supervisor document any arrests that are unsupported by
probable cause or otherwise in violation of MCSO policy.
A.
Okay.
Q.
You see that?
10
A.
I see paragraph 94, sir, yes.
11
Q.
Now, on page 119 the monitor notes that -- well, the
12
monitor talks about what's required to identify issues in
13
arrests that are apparently not supported by probable cause.
14
Do you see that?
15
previously recognized."
16
A.
Okay.
Well, paragraph 94 is actually in the middle of page

And that's the paragraph that requires that
That's the paragraph that begins "We
Q.
19
said in that regard?
Do you have any reason to disagree with what the monitor
DS
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
As far as suggesting that they recommend
23
that commanders also be engaged and active in the supervision
24
of field personnel?
25
BY MR. YOUNG:
FR
14:40:56
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
IEN
22
14:40:31
I'm reading that, sir.
18
21
14:39:52
Okay, sir.
17
20
14:39:26
14:41:09
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Q.
Well, I'm actually mostly interested in the sentence that
talks about diligence being employed in identifying issues in
arrests that appear unsupported by probable cause or otherwise
are in violation of MCSO policy.
Do you have any reason to disagree with that?
5
6
A.
out of the complete paragraph, because the complete paragraph
does offer suggestions and guidance on that.
of it is being -- you're kind of picking and choosing one
10
Again, I will not support the statements that are parsed
So although some
sentence on that to agree with or disagree.
14:41:42
If you read the paragraph in its totality, I think it
11
12
paints a better picture in the fact that I agree with
13
suggestions, and we take feedback and suggestions from the
14
monitor, sir.
15
Q.
16
on paragraph 94 as a whole:
17
Phase 2 not in compliance.
Well, how about just looking at the paragraph, that section
14:41:56
The monitor finds the MCSO as to
Do you have any basis for disagreeing with that?
18
A.
Again, we may not have the supporting documentation to be
20
able to provide that.
21
training in the policy as it rolls out.
22
Phase 2.
IEN
DS
19
As you know, Phase 1 compliance is the
14:42:12
In practice is
Sometimes there's insufficient data that's being
23
captured to be able to prove that.
24
continue to work on filling those gaps to make sure that that
25
compliance is being met, and that that documentation is able to
FR
14:41:24
We as an organization
14:42:30
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be cultivated to be able to prove that compliance, along with
the fact that it's in practice, sir.
Q.
training in avoiding recurrence of the sorts of things that
happened with the case of Deputy Armendariz.
We talked earlier about the importance of supervisor
You'd agree with me that the documentation requirement
6
7
of paragraph 94 is important for that same reason, correct?
A.
investigation, I was not assigned to PSB, so I can't make the
10
Again, I'm not aware specifically of the Armendariz
correlation between what happened in Armendariz and this.
12
the documentation, is important.
13
couple times.
14
important, if that's your question.
15
Q.
16
deputy who was stopping people without probable cause, it would
17
be important to document those instances in order to make sure
18
that future recurrence would not happen, right?
19
A.
Absolutely, sir.
20
Q.
Now, going back to the issue of training -- not as to
21
supervisors but more generally speaking -- the monitors had
22
some disagreements with how training has been handled under the
I think I've said that a
It's a part of the order, sir, and yes, it's all
IEN
DS
So just to take a hypothetical example, if there was some
14:43:21
14:43:46
supplemental order, is that right?
24
MR. POPOLIZIO:
25
THE COURT:
FR
14:43:08
I can tell you that everything supervisory, as far as
11
23
14:42:49
To the extent you know.
14:44:08
THE WITNESS:
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To the extent I know, I'm not the
Training Bureau chief, so I don't know what -- what issues they
had.
report, if that's what you're referring to.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
some examples.
identify trainers for the 2015 annual training and supervisor
training.
I know that -- what they've reported in the quarterly
Well, let's look at page 43 of the report, just to take

Monitor stated that the MCSO had failed to
I'm looking down at the bottom.
Do you have any reason to disagree with that?
10
11
14:44:24
A.
14:44:42
Again, I would --
MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
THE COURT:
13
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
14
That would be a training response.
We
15
report the status; the training provides us the information.
16
So these questions would be more for training to answer.
17
cannot --
18
BY MR. YOUNG:
19
Q.
Well, maybe I can short-circuit this a little bit.
The monitor's report at pages 43, 44, and 45 talks
DS
20
Okay.
about noncompliance with various aspects of the order relating
22
to training.
IEN
21
such that you would not be able to tell us one way or the other
24
whether those statements of the monitor are correct?
FR
14:45:03
Are all of these issues out of your department
23
25
14:44:52
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Objection, 403, too confusing.
14:45:27
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THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
You want me to refer to all the
paragraphs to answer those, sir?
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
you're going to tell me that if it's training, you're not able
to answer or address any of those issues, that will be helpful
and I'll move on.
A.
Yeah.
Well, I have a bunch of individuals things, but if
Yes, I'm not the Training Bureau chief, sir.
I'm CID.
10
Simply the only components that CID has to training is to make
11
sure that they are progressing and facilitating the objectives
12
of the order and reporting on status.
14:45:53
Now, if there are things that aren't being provided or
13
14
were not in compliance through the office for those questions,
15
the Training Bureau chief or their -- their subsequent staff
16
would be the best ones to ask that question of.
17
Q.
18
schedules so that they weren't able to observe the training,
19
would you know anything about that?
20
A.
21
you it would be provided to the monitor, sir.
22
Q.
Okay.
DS
If a training schedule was provided to CID, I can guaranty
IEN
Okay.
14:46:13
So if the Monitor Team wasn't receiving training
14:46:29
Well, if it wasn't -- let's assume it wasn't
23
provided to the monitor and the monitor says it wasn't.
24
you know about that?
25
A.
FR
14:45:40
That would be, then, the bureau chief for training's
Would
14:46:41
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question.
Q.
that since --
A.
don't have it, sir.
Q.
approved the training on body cameras?
A.
between plaintiffs' counsel, the Monitor Team, and the MCSO
So if you had done it, they would have gotten the schedule
If it wasn't provided to us, then that's the reason why we
So would you know anything about whether the monitor
When I left CID, that was actually still a work in progress
10
training division and our legal counsel.
11
Q.
12
forward without the monitor's approval of the training?
13
A.
14
camera training, sir.
15
Q.
I'm sorry?
16
A.
I am not directly aware that it went on without approval; I
17
am aware that I did attend body camera training.
18
Q.
19
of October of this year, correct?
20
A.
If you're referring to the stipulation, yes, sir.
21
Q.
Right.
22
correct?
14:47:10
Would you know whether the training on body cameras went
I'm not directly aware of that, but I did attend body
14:47:26
IEN
DS
Body cameras were supposed to be installed by the beginning
14:47:56
And that requirement was not complied with,
23
A.
As far as the deadline was not met, that is correct, sir.
24
Q.
Now, as to the body camera usage and training, are you
25
aware that plaintiffs objected to the provision that deputies
FR
14:46:55
14:48:22
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would warn fellow deputies that body cameras were being used,
but not be required to warn surrounding civilians that they
were being recorded?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
5
6
How does it relate to the direct
14:48:49
testimony, Mr. Young?
7
8
9
MR. YOUNG:
I'll withdraw the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
BY MR. YOUNG:
10
Q.
Now, I think you testified about one of your duties being
11
collecting documents in response to requirements by the monitor
12
and the Court and the plaintiffs, is that right?
13
A.
14
necessarily collecting, but gathering them.
15
Q.
16
did you spend on that aspect of your work?
17
A.
18
was that, sir.
19
Q.
20
ordered some discovery to happen with respect to this contempt
21
proceeding?
22
A.
Document production requests, sir, yes.
Gathering, not
How much of your time during your term as commander of CID
14:49:22
Approximately I would say 75 to 80 percent of our workload
DS
Now, you're aware that on February 12, 2015, the Court
IEN
Sir, you're going to have to refer to a specific one.
saw a lot of court orders over my two years.
24
Q.
25
series of requirements that I'll represent to you -- this is on
Sure.
Let's look at Exhibit 100.
14:49:43
23
FR
14:49:03
And on page 2 there's a

14:50:08
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page 1 -- were documents that were supposed to be provided on
or before February 27, 2015.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And have you seen this language before, the A through E on
page 2 of the February 12, 2015 order?
A.
disseminated it.
Q.
issuance of that order, you were aware that these were things
Yes.
14:50:25
I believe I received a copy of this order and
So during the time -- actually, the entire time after the
10
that were required to be provided, correct?
11
A.
Yes.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
THE COURT:
13
Overruled.
14
BY MR. YOUNG:
15
Q.
16
that were not provided in the schedule as required by this
17
order, correct?
18
A.
No, I was not, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
had to go deal with the issue of the 1500 IDs being taken by
21
the marshals.
22
A.
You're aware that there have been various identifications
14:51:09
Do you recall that?
And if I can clarify, I was not aware prior to
23
anything being held or not turned over.
24
ordered to turn over, so that's what I consider it as I'm aware
25
of things we turned over.
FR
14:50:51
Well, I think that you testified earlier that you
DS
IEN
Yes.
14:50:43
Obviously, we were
We did so, sir.
14:51:29
Q.
compliance with this order, which required production by
February 27th, would you agree with that?
A.
those IDs or the disclosure or non-disclosure.
the court hearing that took place; I'm aware of physically
being in this court and assisting the marshal's office in
gathering those.
hearing, sir, yes.
And that's not the set of IDs that was turned over in
I don't have direct knowledge of the actual turning in of

I'm aware of
Q.
So you weren't involved yourself in the decision about
11
whether to disclose those, or the fact that they weren't
12
disclosed until they were, is that right?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
14
15
14:51:47
So all information was based off of that
10
14:52:02
MR. YOUNG:
I'll withdraw the question.
THE COURT:
All right.
16
BY MR. YOUNG:
17
Q.
18
to -- well, it's in b and c, just to take those examples --
19
relating to information on individuals who were detained by
20
MCSO, is that right?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Okay.
14:52:19
IEN
DS
Now, there are some other categories of documents relating
14:52:37
Are you aware that there have been proceedings in
23
this court since February 2015 where those materials, or
24
various types of those materials, have been the subject of
25
motions that have led to orders of the Court that documents
FR
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14:52:55
that should have been provided earlier should be provided?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
2
3
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Objection, foundation; beyond the
scope of direct.
THE COURT:
Overruled and overruled.
THE WITNESS:
Sir, any document production that was
requested of CID, we worked with the members of MCSO legal team
to provide those documents.
So the bottom line is if there was orders, if there
8
9
was anything that was requested of us, we turned it over to
10
either our legal team or the Monitor Team as requested.
11
BY MR. YOUNG:
12
Q.
13
under the schedule and requirements of this order, those would
14
be things that other people handled, and not you, is that
15
right?
Okay.
scope.
14:53:43
THE COURT:
18
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
19
Again, not that I'm aware of, sir.
Anything that was requested of us was turned over to our legal
21
team and to the Monitor Team.
DS
20
CID withheld no documents.
23
unit, a special unit within the office, or directed to them,
24
then that's the question to ask of them.
25
withhold documents by any means, sir.
FR
14:53:52
Understand that if documents were to a specialized
IEN
22
14:53:28
So if there were things that were not turned over
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
17
14:53:12
But we did not

14:54:14
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
be by other people.
So if there were documents that were withheld, that would

Is that what you're saying?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
I'm going to allow the question.
THE WITNESS:
withheld to the monitor or the Court or the plaintiffs'
counsel, it would be not by CID.
there were actual documents withheld, it would be by other
So if I'm to assume that
10
people; nobody in CID that I'm aware of, sir.
11
BY MR. YOUNG:
12
Q.
13
relates to documents relating to the preliminary injunction
14
order of this Court.
14:54:48
Now, going down to paragraph E, that same paragraph, that
Do you see that?
15
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
scope.
THE COURT:
18
14:55:05
Overruled.
19
BY MR. YOUNG:
20
Q.
21
and are looking at it.
22
A.
DS
I'm just asking you whether you have that in front of you
14:55:14
IEN
I am, sir.
23
Q.
24
e-mails that are covered by that paragraph that were not turned
25
over in the schedule that were -- that was laid out in the
FR
14:54:33
If I'm to assume that documents were
17
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Okay.
Were you aware that there were documents such as
14:55:30
order?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
2
3
scope of direct.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
Again, sir, I'm not aware personally of
documents being withheld, and there were not any documents
withheld by the span of my control.
may come from the County.
They are the actual records of
10
retention, or custodians of retention for e-mail.
11
also legal counsel involved in this, so I can't tell you.
They were
13
where I was tasked and assigned, everything that was requested
14
of us, or that we gathered, was turned over.
15
documents.
16
BY MR. YOUNG:
17
Q.
18
MCSO to produce to the monitor certain documents relating to an
19
investigation being done involving Dennis Montgomery in
20
Seattle, correct?
DS
THE COURT:
14:56:39
BY MR. YOUNG:
25
Q.
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
24
FR
14:56:18
MR. POPOLIZIO:
23
We withheld no
You're aware that on April 23, 2015, the Court ordered the
IEN
22
14:55:57
All I can tell you is from my viewpoint and my area of
12
21
14:55:40
If there are e-mails you're referring to, again, that
8
9
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I became aware of it, yes, sir.
In fact, you sent a litigation hold memo to Mike Zullo and
14:56:49
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some other people relating specifically to that order, is that
right?
A.
I was instructed to do so, sir, yes.
Q.
Okay.
know whether you have a folder there, Captain, that has that
exhibit, but there should be a number on the tab that hopefully
one of them is 2947.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Is that an e-mail that you sent out as part of your
Could we take a look at Exhibit 2947.
And I don't
10
responsibilities in CID to make sure that people within MCSO,
11
including Mike Zullo, retain documents?
12
A.
13
correspondence or court orders were disseminated by myself or
14
CID staff.
Yes.
17
I move for the admission of Exhibit 2947.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
14:57:57
Your Honor, objection, relevance and
beyond the scope of direct.

THE COURT:
18
Overruled.
Exhibit 2947 is admitted.
(Exhibit No. 2947 is admitted into evidence.)
19
BY MR. YOUNG:
21
Q.
22
letter signed by Michele Iafrate that was the attachment to the
DS
20
14:58:26
IEN
Let's look now at Exhibit 2948.
Captain, Exhibit 2948 is a
23
e-mail that you sent out relating to that litigation hold,
24
correct?
25
A.
FR
14:57:32
As I testified earlier, court correspondent -- court
MR. YOUNG:
15
14:57:09
Yes, sir, I do believe so.
I believe this is it.
14:58:56
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MR. YOUNG:
MR. POPOLIZIO:
2
3
4
5
6
MR. YOUNG:
May I be heard, Your Honor?
THE COURT:
You may be.
MR. YOUNG:
Waiver.
THE COURT:
Why isn't the attorney-client waived?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Objection, attorney-client privilege.
14:59:26
That's a good question, Your Honor,
because I don't know if I've ever seen this document.
But I
don't believe that the waiver, if there is one, is intentional
10
and knowing.
11
come from Sheriff Arpaio, and there's been no evidence that the
12
person who holds the waiver, or who holds the privilege, the
13
sheriff, has waived it.

THE COURT:
14
15
back, have you?
If, in fact, you produced it during discovery.
15:00:08
Well, I'm making the attempt right
now, Your Honor, to claw it back.

THE COURT:
18
All right.
Well, I'm going to say -- I'm
going to rule at this moment that the exhibit is admitted
20
subject to any successful attempt to claw it back by you.
21
you're going to have to make the showing necessary to get
22
something back that there has been no waiver.
IEN
DS
19
23
Is that clear to everyone?
24
MR. POPOLIZIO:
25
THE COURT:
FR
14:59:48
Well, you've made no attempts to claw this
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
17
And the waiver of the privilege would have to
But
15:00:23
Yes.
All right.
15:00:37
MR. YOUNG:
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Now let's look at Exhibit 2984.

THE COURT:
Let me just make clear, though, that was
MR. YOUNG:
Yes.
THE COURT:
All right.
So 2948 is conditionally
admitted, with the proviso that if you do it timely,
10
Mr. Popolizio, you can make an effort to claw this back, and I
11
won't look at it in the meantime.

MR. YOUNG:
12
we set a time limit so that if no motion is made, the condition
14
will go away?
THE COURT:
15
Yeah.
16
tomorrow.
17
tomorrow, Mr. Popolizio?
THE COURT:
19
We're not going to have a hearing
15:01:11
Can you get anything on file by the end of the day
MR. POPOLIZIO:
18
15:00:56
Your Honor, just so there's clarity, may
13
I believe so.
All right.
if you want to claw this back.
21
BY MR. YOUNG:
22
Q.
DS
20
So the end of the day tomorrow
15:01:23
IEN
May we look now at Exhibit 2984.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Do you have that, Captain?
25
A.
I do, sir.
FR
15:00:42
Exhibit 2948?
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Q.
Okay.
Now, that's an e-mail exchange between you and
Mr. Zullo, correct?
the date, would you agree with me that that e-mail exchange
between you and Mr. Zullo is a response to the e-mail that you
sent out on the document hold?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
7
8
the question asked.
BY MR. YOUNG:
10
It's been redacted heavily, but based on
Q.
15:02:00
I'm going to sustain the objection as to
Do you recognize Exhibit 2984?
Well, let me ask it this way.
11
15:02:13
That's your e-mail
12
address in the "from" line on the top e-mail, correct?
13
A.
It is my e-mail address.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
you from Michael Zullo.
And below that there's another e-mail addressed to
15:02:32
Do you see that?
16
17
A.
I do, sir.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
that's a redacted version of the e-mail that we looked at just
20
a moment ago, which is Exhibit 2947, is that right?
21
A.
22
and not the contents, sir.
DS
And if on the screen we can move down a little bit,
IEN
I can only assume.
You're basing that off of the header

I see "redacted" on there.
23
Q.
24
aside the redactions, that this is an authentic copy of an
25
e-mail string that you had with Mr. Zullo while you were
FR
15:02:51
Do you have any reason to doubt that as redacted, setting
15:03:18
complying with your responsibilities as commander of CID to
collect documents that were called for under court order or
monitor request?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
And Your
Honor, I'm going to reassert the -- the attorney-client
privilege.
asserted that at that time.
All right.
But what about this exhibit
has anything to do with the attorney-client privilege?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
10
11
15:03:39
This actually did come up in deposition, and I
THE COURT:
8
9
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Ms. Iafrate is participating in this,
and so are members of her office.

THE COURT:
12
All right.
But there is no content on the
13
exhibit, and the exhibit also went to Jerry Sheridan, Amy Lake,
14
Michele Vendredi, Travis Anglin, Brian Mackiewicz, Michael
15
Zullo, C. Shehorn, Bill Knight, Edward Lopez.
15:04:12
As the person asserting the privilege, I think you're
16
17
under some obligation to indicate why all of those people would
18
need to receive the communication, and there is no
19
communication there, there's no substance to any communication
20
there.
21
now?
23
24
FR
25
DS
So do you want to take the time to lay that out for me
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
22
15:03:54
What is the question, Your Honor?
15:04:33
I'm
sorry.
THE COURT:
It was pretty detailed.
assertion of the privilege.
You're the
You're the one asserting the
15:04:40
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privilege as to these documents based merely on the fact that
Ms. Iafrate was one of the people cc'd on this e-mail.
that's your basis, your objection is overruled, because you
have not established the necessary prerequisites to asserting
the privilege.
THE WITNESS:
Sorry, sir.
Exhibit 2947, then that bottom e-mail string does look and
appear to be the top e-mail string on 2947, sir.
MR. YOUNG:
11
12
15:05:16
Your Honor, I move for the admission of
Exhibit 2984.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
13
THE COURT:
14
No objection, Your Honor.
15
16
BY MR. YOUNG:
17
Q.
18
monitor, and you used that term in connection with ITRs, is
19
that right?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
say, Give me this specific category of document, and part of
15:05:35
IEN
DS
Now, you referred earlier to specialty requests by the
15:05:49
So those would be things where the monitor would
23
your responsibility would be to go out and collect those, is
24
that right?
25
A.
FR
15:04:56
Assuming that the e-mail header is the same as
10
Overruled.
You can answer the question.
And if
Correct.
15:06:01
Q.
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Can we look at Exhibit 2950.
Now, Alex Frank, who's shown on this document, was one
2
3
of the people working under you at CID, correct?
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
A gentleman, sir.
Q.
Okay.
with people who were in possession of documents that the MCSO
was obligated to turn over and make sure that those documents
Is Alex Frank a he or a she?
So one of the things that he did was to correspond
10
would be collected, is that correct?
11
A.
That would be correct, sir.
12
Q.
Okay.
15:06:56
In the course of that work --
What's Alexander Frank's title?
13
15:06:36
Sergeant, is that
14
right?
15
A.
16
Q.
Would Sergeant Frank create documents as part of that
17
effort that would reflect what he knew at the time during that
18
collection?
19
A.
I'm sorry.
20
Q.
Yes.
21
documents, he would write e-mails about that work, right?
Reflect what he knew?
DS
23
THE COURT:
24
THE WITNESS:
FR
25
I --
Well, during the course of his work collecting
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
22
15:07:08
BY MR. YOUNG:
15:07:22
If you know.
He would send requests.
15:07:35
Q.
correct?
Okay.
THE COURT:
MR. YOUNG:
THE COURT:
Objection, foundation, relevance.
I can't see a copy of the whole exhibit.
Do you want to show me a copy of the whole exhibit,
10
please.
MR. YOUNG:
12
Yes, Your Honor.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
14
Your Honor, I'd like to add beyond the
scope of direct also.

THE COURT:
16
15:08:27
That objection's overruled.
The exhibit is admitted, Exhibit 29 -- the objection
17
is overruled.
The exhibit is admitted.
19
BY MR. YOUNG:
21
Q.
Do you have Exhibit 2945 in front of you, Captain Skinner?
22
A.
2945, sir?
IEN
DS
20
23
Q.
Yes.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Exhibit 2945 is a copy of a memo that Mr. Zullo wrote to
FR
15:08:07
Mr. Klein, is there a way to do that?
13
18
15:07:51
MR. POPOLIZIO:
15
It appears so, based off of the e-mail
headers, yeah.
11
If you know.
THE WITNESS:
5
6
This Exhibit 2950 contains some of his e-mails,
MR. POPOLIZIO:
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15:09:04
15:09:25
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you with respect to one of the monitor's ITR requests, correct?
A.
Yes, sir, appears so.

MR. YOUNG:
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
Objection, beyond the scope.
Overruled.
6
7
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
communications, among other things, with Judge Royce Lamberth.
Now, the ITR 79 called for documents relating to
Do you see that?
10
15:10:16
11
A.
12
portion of this?
13
Q.
Yes.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
such records.
17
knowledge, do anything to follow up on that?
18
A.
19
possession of documents, whether it be -- if this is a Posse,
20
we don't necessarily have or retain private e-mail accounts.
21
That would need a subpoena.
Are you basing this off of the memorandum with the request
And Mr. Zullo said in response to you that he had no
DS
We don't have
15:10:48
If a Posse exists, which they do exist in their own
23
entity, that would be a separate entity than it is at MCSO.
24
Only if MCSO had these documents could we verify that they're
25
attainable, either through another mechanism or the person
FR
15:10:25
Did you do anything, or did your staff, to your
Again, documents, we send out the request.
IEN
22
15:09:45
15:11:07
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themselves.
So at this point we have to go off of, since we're
2
3
also referring to personal e-mail, personal businesses, and
personal communication through phones, we have to go based off
of that, unless a subpoena has been issued on it, sir.
Q.
documents relating to the Seattle investigation and provided
them to -- well, where would he have take -- where would he
have sent them?
Well, let's assume that Mr. Zullo did provide some
To whom would he have provided them, if he had
10
provided documents in response to the ITR request?
11
A.
12
those documents, they're either to go to us, CID staff, or
13
legal counsel if there's a -- they wanted to review them for
14
any privileged information and make that determination.
15
Q.
16
were called for in ITRs?
17
A.
Did Chief Knight have any role in collecting documents that
Yes.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
19
DS
BY MR. YOUNG:
22
Q.
15:12:05
If you know.
THE WITNESS:
21
Yes, he did, in the beginning, sir.
15:12:16
IEN
And what was his role?
23
A.
24
task of the original ITR request.
25
consisted of, but one to eight line items, I believe.
FR
15:11:43
He would have -- if we're requesting, if CID is requesting
18
20
15:11:21
He originally was giving the document -- or assigned the

I don't remember how many it
15:12:29
Q.
Let's look at 2949,

MR. YOUNG:
2
3
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Oh, actually, did -- I move, if I didn't
already, for the admission of 2945.
I guess we did do that, didn't we?
4
5
6
THE COURT:
You did do it, and it was admitted.
MR. YOUNG:
Sorry.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
you from Mr. Zullo relating to another ITR, number 8, is that
Next exhibit is 2949.
10
right?
11
A.
15:13:22
MR. YOUNG:
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Objection, relevance, and beyond the
scope of direct.
THE COURT:
16
15:13:32
Overruled.
The exhibit is admitted.
17
18
BY MR. YOUNG:
19
Q.
Next exhibit is Exhibit 2973.
Captain Skinner, this is also a memorandum that
DS
20
Exhibit 2949.
14
15
Now, this is also a memorandum to
It appears so, sir, yes.
12
13
Mr. Zullo wrote to you in response to another ITR, number 63,
22
correct?
IEN
21
23
A.
2273 or 2973?
24
Q.
Oh, 2973.
25
A.
2273 is not a memorandum.
FR
15:12:55
15:14:00
I apologize.
15:14:13
Yes, this appears so, sir.
MR. YOUNG:
Objection, relevance, beyond the
scope, and 805.
THE COURT:
5
6
I move for the admission of 2973.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
3
4
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The objection's overruled.
The exhibit is
admitted.
7
8
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Next, Captain Skinner, is Exhibit 2974.

Actually, we did 2974.
10
I apologize.
15:15:08
And I don't know whether you have this in front of you
11
12
but it's Exhibit 2946.
13
A.
I do, sir.
14
Q.
Exhibit 2946 is a multipage document, and it consists of
15
memos written to you with respect to ITR 80, is that correct?
16
A.
17
ITR 80.
18
Q.
Do you have that in front of you?
19
A.
Yes, I do, sir.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
your role as the collector of documents relating to ITR 80?
22
A.
IEN
Sorry.
15:15:40
It appears there are three separate memos reference
And is that the further memoranda written to you in
DS
Yes.
Do you have that?
15:16:03
Say that first part again, sir?
23
Q.
I'm sorry?
24
A.
I didn't catch your first part of your question.
25
Q.
Well, actually, just looking at the three pages of
FR
15:14:45
15:16:25
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Exhibit 2946, those are memoranda written to you by Lee Ann
Bohn, Sergeant Romney, and Michael Zullo, responding to ITR 80,
correct?
A.

MR. YOUNG:
5
6
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
MR. YOUNG:
11
THE COURT:
15
16
you.
It's about time for an afternoon break.
MR. YOUNG:
This is a fine time, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Okay.
So 15 minutes we'll be back.
THE COURT:
19
Thank
Please be seated.
DS
Please continue, Mr. Young.

MR. YOUNG:
15:38:14
IEN
BY MR. YOUNG:
23
Q.
24
It's an e-mail dated February 2, 2015, with the subject
25
"Judge Snow."
FR
15:17:17
(Recess taken.)
18
22
Your Honor -- well, actually, let's go to
Is this as good a time as any to break?
14
21
15:16:51
the next exhibit, which is 2256.
13
20
10
17
Objection, relevance; beyond the scope
of direct.
12
15:16:40
Exhibit 2946.
7
8
Captain Skinner, I'd like you to look at Exhibit 2090.
15:38:30
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Do you have that in front of you?
1
2
A.
I do, sir.
Q.
Now, that's an e-mail that has a Bates number at the
bottom.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you recognize that as the Bates number that was used for
documents that were produced by MCSO and responsive, at least
in part, to the monitor's document requests?
A.
I'm not personally aware of this document, sir.
10
Q.
Have you seen documents with Bates numbers starting with
11
the letters MELC previously?
12
A.
Yes, I have, sir.
13
Q.
And that has been in connection with documents that have
14
been produced with your participation as a result of the
15
monitor's document requests?
16
A.
17
units in the Maricopa County Sheriff's office, come from other
18
units within the agency and have the same type of Bates label.
THE CLERK:
THE CLERK:
15:39:31
Others came from other
Counsel, if you could give me one moment.
Okay.
15:40:07
Thank you.
23
Q.
24
with the person named Mike on this e-mail string.
25
several places, the bottom of the first page, for example.
FR
15:39:11
BY MR. YOUNG:
IEN
22
15:38:50
DS
21
The first page is MELC202222?
I would say a good portion, sir.
19
20
Do you see that?
Now, I want you to look at the e-mail address associated

It occurs in
15:40:17
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It's 1tick@earthlink.net.
Do you see that?
A.
Yes, I do, sir.
Q.
Okay.
Zullo, correct?
A.
monitor and the document you've already submitted into evidence
as an exhibit, that I do correlate to being associated with
him, sir.
Q.
You recognize that as the e-mail address of Michael
In correlation to previous document requests from the
Now, this document was produced by MCSO to the monitor
10
staff in response to the monitor's ITR requests, correct?
11
A.
12
been, sir.
13
Q.
14
production of this document by the MCSO in response to the
15
monitor's requests?
16
A.
17
produced by MCSO to the monitor utilizing those Bates stamp
18
numbers.
Okay.
23
15:41:09
Yes, at least some form or fashion, this probably was
MR. YOUNG:
Exhibit 2090.
15:41:22
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Objection, foundation, hearsay,
relevance.
IEN
22
What you see in front of you is consistent with the
DS
21
THE COURT:
Okay.
I am going to -- I am going to
24
grant the objection without prejudice, because I don't believe
25
that under 901(b)(4) there are yet enough distinctive
FR
15:40:50
Again, I don't have personal knowledge, but it could have
19
20
15:40:31
15:42:09
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characteristics to establish a foundation for this exhibit.
I'm not going to rule on the hearsay objection at this point.
You're not -- oh.
MR. YOUNG:
Well, Your Honor, let me say that I have a
number of other documents that have very similar Bates numbers
and are of a similar nature.
one.
I can do it, or if --
I can go through them all one by
I assume that Mr. Popolizio will have the same objection.
THE COURT:
9
10
please.
Well, can I see the parties at sidebar,
15:43:02
MR. YOUNG:
11
Yes, Your Honor.
(Bench conference on the record.)
12
THE COURT:
13
I want to be very careful about admitting
14
exhibits, and although I do think you've established some
15
characteristics, I don't know whether you're going to attempt
16
to establish others, or reestablish with other witnesses.
17
not precluding that, if that's what you're going to try to do.
I'm
do that, to go through every one of these, because my rulings
20
will be the same.
21
objected to allowing Mr. Zullo to take the Fifth without having
22
to appear and wanted to -- a response with respect to specific
IEN
DS
19
24
FR
25
15:43:32
I don't really see the need, if you're going to try to
18
23
15:42:45
But I'm also assuming that since Mr. Jirauch
15:43:50
questions then Mr. Zullo will be appearing.

If you're going to try and get these exhibits in, it
seems to me to be most appropriate through him, and then we can
15:44:14
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argue about what, if any, adverse inferences are allowed with
respect to these individual documents at that time.
So I don't know, Mr. Popolizio, if you're going to
3
4
require or want Mr. Young to go through every one of these
exhibits, but if you do, it seems to me that my ruling's going
to be the same.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Which is are you sustaining the
relevance or the foundation?
THE COURT:
No, I'm not sustaining the relevance
10
objection; I probably specifically overrule that.
11
sustaining the foundation objection.

MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
But I am
Honor.
14
unique or distinct characteristics of these just because that
15
there's --
17
I don't believe that plaintiff has established enough
15:44:56
THE COURT:
Well, that's all right.
You're going to
make him go through every one -MR. YOUNG:
18
Just to be clear, I have a number of
19
documents that are similar to the one I just tried to get
20
introduced.
21
other similar documents I will definitely go through them.
DS
And if you're saying that you may not object to
23
the objection and the ruling are going to be the same as to
24
this kind of document, I'm not sure I see a need to go through
25
them all.
FR
15:45:06
I think my question to the Court and to counsel was if
IEN
22
15:44:40
And I believe it's necessary, Your
13
16
15:44:29
15:45:26
MR. POPOLIZIO:
1
2
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And the objections are going to be
made, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Okay.
But here's my point.
I'm going to
require, nevertheless, Mr. Young to go through them all if
you're going to try to rely on these same characteristics in
conjunction with reoffering these through -- attempting to
reoffer these exhibits through Mr. Zullo.
to stipulate that every one of them has the MELC, and that that
was the production number used in this case, and that Zullo's
10
Unless you're going
e-mail is Zullo's e-mail.
15:45:51
I think that Zullo's e-mail is Zullo's e-mail has
11
12
already been established through other testimony.
13
you're going to have to -- I mean, are you going to make
14
Mr. Young go through and establish that MELC was the production
15
number used by --
17
18
But if
15:46:07
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16
No.
THE COURT:
-- MCSO in this case?
MR. YOUNG:
All right.
Okay.
Then I'm going to assume that
for similar documents, the ruling will be the same, and I do
20
not need to go through all of them with this witness.

THE COURT:
23
Judge, can I ask one point of
clarification?
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. MASTERSON:
FR
15:46:19
All right.
MR. MASTERSON:
IEN
22
DS
19
21
15:45:37
Sure.
My question is regarding
15:46:28
clarification.
wondering about the distinction --
The Court mentioned 901, and I'm
THE COURT:
(b)(4).
MR. MASTERSON:
-- the distinction between
authentication of the document and foundation for the
information in the document.
objections.
THE COURT:
15:46:38
I think they're two different
Well, you're probably right.
MR. MASTERSON:
9
10
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I think a document can be
authenticated but still lack foundation.

THE COURT:
11
I think you're probably right about that.
MR. MASTERSON:
12
THE COURT:
13
15:46:52
Okay.
So I'll look at it overnight, but I think
14
you're -- that seems to make sense to me.
15
sufficient for authentication, but I still think I'd like a
16
little more; then foundation will be a different issue.
17
assume we're going to be raising this all with respect to
18
Mr. Zullo, anyway, or at least I'm not precluding you from
19
doing that.
21
Yes, we'll see this document again.
THE COURT:
And I assume that we -- I assume by what
23
mouth, but I also don't want to leave here without
24
understanding that you're going to stipulate that the MELC
25
thing with respect to the other documents would be the same
FR
15:47:18
you said, Mr. Masterson, I don't mean to put words in your
IEN
22
15:47:02
But I
MR. YOUNG:
DS
20
Maybe it is
15:47:31
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through -- same as this document that we've established with
Captain Skinner.
used by Maricopa County in the production of documents in this
case.
In other words, the MELC prefix was a prefix
MR. MASTERSON:
THE COURT:
I agree to that, yes.
If you want to establish anything more in
terms of authentication or more foundation, you better say it
now, Mr. Young.
MR. YOUNG:
9
10
I will think about it as I walk back to
the lectern.
THE COURT:
11
15:48:03
All right.
(Bench conference concluded.)
12
THE COURT:
13
Okay.
I'm going to state that based on
14
the comment made by Mr. Masterson at sidebar, there was no
15
authentication objection offered and so I'm still going to
16
sustain the foundational objection, but there was no
17
authentication objection offered, so my citation to 901(b)(4)
18
was moot.
19
BY MR. YOUNG:
20
Q.
15:48:49
I'm not sure you have it in front of you.
23
I wonder whether Ms. Zoratti has it, 2985.
24
THE CLERK:
25
THE WITNESS:
FR
15:48:28
Now, that's one that we recently marked, I think, so
IEN
22
So Captain Skinner, I want you now to look at Exhibit 2985.
DS
21
15:47:52
Here you go (handing).

Thank you.
15:49:39
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Yes, sir.
1
2
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
dated May 7, 2015, listing various ITR requests that CID had
received from the monitor, correct?
A.
monitor, sir.
Q.
Sheriff's Office on the top of the first page?
Now, Exhibit 2985 is a memorandum written by Chief Knight
15:49:58
No, I believe these were received by Chief Knight from the
Okay.
And that's the letterhead of the Maricopa County
10
A.
That's not considered letterhead; that's just an official
11
memorandum format by the Sheriff's Office, sir.

MR. YOUNG:
12
13
Exhibit 2985.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
14
15
Hearsay.
Objection, relevance, foundation.
15:50:33
THE COURT:
16
Sustained as to foundation.
17
BY MR. YOUNG:
18
Q.
19
the time that he was working on ITR responses include
20
generating memoranda such as this?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
IEN
22
Captain Skinner, did Chief Knight's responsibilities during
DS
21
23
15:51:00
If you know.
THE WITNESS:
I do not know.
24
of the chief deputy, sir, not me.
25
BY MR. YOUNG:
FR
15:50:20
He was at the direction
15:51:10
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Q.
So Chief Knight was not working with you during the
response -- in connection with responses to the monitor
document requests?
A.
the time.
Q.
responding to the monitor's document requests?
A.
In the initial version, no; down the road, yes.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
When it was turned over to CID, I can only speak of what
11
CID was assigned, and the task, and what we did respond with.
12
Q.
13
Court's orders would have been to turn over any sound
14
recordings coming within the scope of the monitor's requests
15
relating to the Seattle investigation, correct?
16
A.
17
sound recordings?
18
Q.
19
correct?
20
A.
21
production request, sir.
22
Q.
No, sir.
We were involved in other production requests at
15:51:27
Well, did you work together at all with Chief Knight in
Well, part of your responsibility in complying with the
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Rephrase that.
You know what the Seattle investigation was,
DS
I don't know what it was.
All right.
IEN
15:52:17
The Seattle investigation and
I was notified what it is in a
15:52:27
Well, with respect to that investigation, if
23
Mr. Zullo or someone else at the MCSO had a sound recording
24
relating to that investigation, would that have been something
25
that would have been of interest to you in responding to the
FR
15:51:42
15:52:47
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monitor's document requests?
A.
Was it requested --
MR. POPOLIZIO:
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
Was it requested?
And what ITR
number is it, sir?
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Well, and --
A.
-- Chief Knight worked on some of the --
10
Q.
And I guess I know -- you know, if you can refer -- on ITR
11
37, which is one of the ones listed in Exhibit 2985, take a
12
look at that.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
Seattle investigation, correct?
16
A.
17
product, sir.
18
Q.
19
calling for audio recordings, among other things, relating to
20
the Seattle investigation?
21
A.
22
turned over to CID at a litter date --
Because again --
15:53:04
That refers to audio recordings relevant to the
15:53:23
This was Chief Knight's work product, not CID's work
Do you recall an ITR 37 request from the monitor
DS
Okay.
We weren't involved in these ITR requests, sir.
IEN
Not that I recall in the initial, sir.
23
Q.
Have you ever --
24
A.
-- to --
25
Q.
I'm sorry.
FR
15:52:57
15:53:42
Again, this was
Are you finished with your answer?
15:53:51
4247
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A.
No, I'm not, sir.
It was turned over to CID at a later
date for us then to assume the task of collecting documents.
Q.
Have you seen ITR 37 before?
A.
I may or may not have, sir.
had several production requests that we were working on at the
time relative to IA matters, ITR requests, property room
matters, monthly production requests, quarterly production
requests, and a host of other things.
Q.
Was your responsibil- --
10
A.
-- cannot specifically say that I saw that particular one.
11
I have seen the ITR requests when CID was tasked with that.
12
Q.
13
time?
14
A.
More than likely, yes, sir.
15
Q.
All right.
16
correct, Captain Skinner?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
heard it?
20
A.
In person, yes, sir.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
Exhibit 2977, be played in part, the initial part, and I'm
I cannot recall.
Again, we
So I --
You've heard Sheriff Arpaio's voice previously,
So you'd recognize it, in all likelihood, if you
DS
IEN
15:54:35
I've worked for him for over 20 years.
15:54:52
I'm going to ask that an audio recording, which is
going to ask you, Captain Skinner, whether you recognize
24
Sheriff Arpaio's voice on that recording.
FR
15:54:22
Did you see a list of all the ITR requests at any point in
23
25
15:54:06
(Audio clip played.)
15:56:06
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, perhaps that's enough.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
that recording as one of the people in that conversation?
A.
heard that recording before, sir.
Q.
one of those in that conversation?
A.
It does sound like it, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
Captain Skinner, do you recognize Sheriff Arpaio's voice on
I would assume.
Okay.
15:56:30
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Honor.
THE COURT:
15
16
objection.
17
BY MR. YOUNG:
18
Q.
Foundation, relevance, hearsay, Your
I am going to sustain the foundational
Let's play the beginning of 2978.
Same question, Captain.
BY MR. YOUNG:
21
Q.
22
recording, Captain?
15:57:20
DS
20
IEN
Did you hear Sheriff Arpaio's voice briefly in that
A.
I'd have to hear it again, sir.
24
MR. YOUNG:
25
FR
15:56:41
19
23
15:56:15
Exhibit 2977.
13
14
I was not present for that, nor have I
Did you recognize Sheriff Arpaio's voice as being
MR. YOUNG:
11
12
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I did not.
Can we play that part again?

15:57:33
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BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Captain Skinner, there was a mention there of Gore.

Did you hear that?
3
4
A.
Vaguely, yes.
Q.
Do you recognize that to be Sheriff Arpaio's voice?
A.
I can only assume, sir.
conversation.
potentially could be.
Q.
Again, I was not privy to that
Sounded a little mumbled, but, yes, it
Did anybody in CID, in connection with the various requests
10
that were made to Mr. Zullo, ask him whether he had any audio
11
recordings relevant to the Seattle investigation?

MR. POPOLIZIO:
12
THE COURT:
13
I don't know specifically on the audio
15
recordings.
16
communication came from Sergeant Alexander Frank to Mike Zullo
17
on the requests that were outstanding.
18
fulfilled by Chief Knight, Chief Knight would be your best
19
person to ask on that question.
23
24
FR
25
15:59:07
Anything that had been
Requests to Zullo were taken over by who?
THE WITNESS:
15:59:32
The request was taken over by CID after
Chief Knight had tasked them.
IEN
22
DS
21
I know that once CID took over the ITR requests,
THE COURT:
15:58:52
If you know.
THE WITNESS:
14
20
15:58:28
THE COURT:
And who was the CID person that you said
had contact with Zullo?

THE WITNESS:
That would be Sergeant Alexander Frank,
15:59:52
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who was assigned to CID.

THE COURT:
And then did I also understand you to say
that CID made no attempts to follow up on materials that were
already answered to Chief Knight?

THE WITNESS:
Unless there was additional request from
the monitor for us to get additional information, I cannot
recall specifically at this date of those particular items.
But please understand the ITR requests continued to grow from
the initial request.
When Chief Knight had it, when it got to,
10
I believe, item 47 or 45, that's when it was turned over to
11
CID, and I think it grew to 78 or 84 -THE COURT:
12
Okay.
transferred from Knight to CID.
14
THE WITNESS:
Somewhere around there, sir, yes.
15
can't recall specifically without going back to that date and
16
time.
THE COURT:
18
And CID made no attempt to verify the
THE WITNESS:
If deputy chief had told us that those
had already been answered and needed verification through our
21
legal team, then there would be no reason to go back, because
22
we had more to go grab, unless the monitor specifically said,
IEN
DS
20
23
We need updates or additional response to that.
24
be the case.
FR
16:00:52
accurate of answers 1 through 44, or whatever it was.
19
25
16:00:36
So around 45, the ITRs were
13
17
16:00:13
16:01:05
And that may
I just don't know for sure which one, sir.
THE COURT:
Thank you.
16:01:25
THE WITNESS:
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No problem.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Patrol was at your request, correct?
A.
Q.
The reason you made that request was that you found that
working in CID was stressful, correct?
A.
Stressful was one component, sir.
Q.
What were the other components?
10
A.
Personal reasons, sir.
11
Q.
It was taking a lot of time that you wanted to do other
12
things with, correct?
13
A.
14
a daughter getting ready to go to college, and a son turning
15
16, yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
of work with all the various things that you had to do,
18
correct?
19
A.
21
16:01:47
16:02:03
Administratively, being in CID in command there was a lot
It was a lot of work, sir.

MR. YOUNG:
very much.
IEN
22
16:01:34
Well, if you wanted to find other things, I have a family,
DS
20
Captain Skinner, your transfer out of CID back to the Lake
Captains Skinner, I appreciate your time
Thank you.
THE WITNESS:
Thank you, Mr. Young.
23
MR. YOUNG:
No further questions at this time.
24
THE COURT:
Department of Justice?
25
MR. KILLEBREW:
FR
16:02:28
Yes, Your Honor.
We do have a few
16:02:38
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Skinner - CX Killebrew, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
questions.
THE COURT:
All right.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
3
4
BY MR. KILLEBREW:
Q.
Good afternoon, Captain Skinner.
A.
Good afternoon, sir.
Q.
We met at your deposition, but there's a lot of lawyers in
this case, so I'll just tell you that my name is Paul
Killebrew.
I represent the United States in this matter.
16:02:53
10
work with the Department of Justice in the Civil Rights
11
Division.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
I just wanted to go back to one topic from your testimony
14
this morning, and that is the consultation that you did with
15
the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Do you remember that testimony?
18
A.
I do, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
Again, we were researching agencies that had either been in
21
a consent decree, had been under investigation for either use
22
of force matters or reform, and one of my sergeants, Sergeant
DS
IEN
16:03:12
How did that come to be?
23
Ben Armer, who is now the lieutenant there, reached out to one
24
of the training coordinators at Las Vegas Metro PD to talk
25
about the reform that they had underwent with the DOJ
FR
16:03:02
16:03:19
16:03:44
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investigation and reaching out to COPS, part of DOJ, to get the
funding and the skills necessary to build that reform.
had set up a weeklong event of going out there and meeting with
various members and units.
Q.
And how many MCSO personnel went there?
A.
Approximately six, sir.
Q.
And you were there for a week, you said?
A.
Four days, I believe.
Monday, so Tuesday through Thursday, maybe even Friday, and
So we
We drove up I believe probably on a
10
then drove back.
11
Q.
12
Las Vegas was use of force, is that right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And that it was officer-involved shootings that they had
15
had?
16
A.
17
things, yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
they had wanted to avoid a DOJ investigation, is that right?
20
A.
21
under investigation or being looked at, and reached out to the
22
DOJ to look at:
Okay.
16:04:19
And I think you testified that the issue in
16:04:28
As well as, obviously, de-escalation and a few other
And I think you testified, but tell me if I'm wrong, that
IEN
DS
I believe so, sir.
They basically had known that they were
16:04:37
How can we move forward and get remedy for
23
this?
24
Q.
25
DOJ, is that right?
FR
16:04:04
And I think you just said it, but it was the COPS office of
16:04:55
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A.
That is correct.
Q.
And do you know that that stands for the Office of
Community Oriented Policing Services?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
office to come and help them with their reform, is that right?
A.
Yes, at the suggestion of the DOJ, yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
between the COPS office and the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police
So you're aware, then, that they invited the COPS
And so you're aware that it was a collaboration
10
Department to accomplish those reforms, is that right?
11
A.
12
Q.
So would it be fair to say that the Las Vegas Metropolitan
13
Police Department was proactive in this reform effort?
14
A.
15
obviously, not entering into an order or consent degree, and
16
the fact that this -- at this point in time they're considered
17
incompliant, both internally and again against any
18
investigation, that the DOJ was looking into the matter, as far
19
as I'm aware.
20
Q.
21
DOJ or somebody like the ACLU filed suit, is that right?
DS
And so in terms of what you know, they didn't wait until
MR. POPOLIZIO:
16:05:41
16:05:56
Objection, foundation, relevance.
23
THE COURT:
24
If you know, you can answer the question.
25
THE WITNESS:
FR
16:05:25
Again, I don't know all the details behind it, but, yes,
IEN
22
16:05:00
He asked him as far as what he knew.
As far as I know, sir.
Again, that had
16:06:15
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happened in the period of time before we reached out to them.
I didn't necessarily -- I wasn't looking at all the details of
how the settlement or negotiations there came about.
goal was:
measures and setting up an EIS system within our agency?
were looking to glean their path that had been successful, and
that's really what I could probably testify to.
BY MR. KILLEBREW:
Q.
Our main
How do we move forward with reform and compliance
So we
And so their path, did you get a sense of how long it had
10
taken them to accomplish those reforms?
11
A.
12
out, they were a good four to six years potentially underway,
13
and don't quote me on the time period, but I think it was just
14
recently.
15
start to finish, as you see with most agencies under reform of
16
that degree.
17
Q.
18
you know how long that engagement was?
19
A.
20
out, and I think they still continued to work with them up till
21
almost the eight-, nine-, 10-year mark.
22
Q.
Several years, sir.
16:06:54
I believe at the point that we reached
It was almost a 10-year process to actually get from
16:07:09
So in terms of their engagement with the COPS office, do
DS
Again, it was, I believe, a few years before us reaching
16:07:23
IEN
So if I told you it was just a one-year engagement, that's
23
not your understanding?
24
A.
25
I don't know that -- I'm talking more the reform process.
FR
16:06:35
Again, it may be a one-year engagement to get them started.

I
16:07:38
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don't know how long reporting-wise, or what the requirements
were, because we weren't in the same position from that angle.
I was looking at the reform angle, so I couldn't tell you, no,
sir.
Q.
compliance with the COPS recommendations within one year,
that's not your understanding, or is that possible?
A.
changes were required.
So if I told you that they had achieved 90 percent
I'm not aware of it.
It depends how many reforms and
When we say 90 percent, if they only
10
had five avenues, then maybe so.
11
MR. KILLEBREW:
12
Okay.
I'm not aware, sir.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
14
That's all I have for you.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Murdy?
Mr. Walker, I assumed that you had no questions or you
15
16
would have said something, but I certainly want to give you
17
that opportunity if you have any.

MR. MURDY:
18
MR. WALKER:
19
23
16:08:29
Your Honor, could we show the witness
Exhibit 2952, the monitor report?
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. POPOLIZIO:
FR
I have no
Redirect, then.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
22
THE COURT:
16:08:19
No questions, Your Honor.
questions for the witness, either.
DS
21
16:08:10
Thank you very much, Captain Skinner.
13
20
16:07:54
2952?
Sure.
I believe that's --
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Skinner - RDX Popolizio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing 4257
THE WITNESS:
I have it here, sir.
MR. POPOLIZIO:
Page 16?
Can we have control over the exhibits?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6
7
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
Q.
about this exhibit?
Do you recall when -- or that Mr. Young asked you questions
10
A.
Yes, there were several questions, so --
11
Q.
Sure.
12
A.
-- specifically.
13
Q.
There's a specific question or line of questions that he
14
asked about raw data.
15
A.
Yes, I do, sir.
16
Q.
I'm trying to find --
17
A.
The last paragraph, "While the detention audits reviewed."

THE COURT:
18
16:09:28
Last paragraph where?
Page 16, second-to-last paragraph it
appears, "While the detention audits reviewed... they do not
21
include raw data."
22
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
IEN
DS
20
Yes.
16:09:16
Do you remember that?
THE WITNESS:
19
16:09:41
Is that what you're referring to?
23
Q.
24
Mr. Young -- by Mr. Young about that?
25
A.
FR
16:09:04
And you remember answering some questions of
Yes, sir.
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Q.
would -- an audit review would be posted there, would that
include raw data?
A.
On the mcsobio.org, no, not necessarily.
Q.
Can the monitor request raw data from MCSO?
A.
The monitor can request anything from MCSO.
Q.
And has the -- to your knowledge, has the monitor requested
raw data from MCSO?
A.
I believe potentially portions of raw data, yes, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
A.
But I don't -- I couldn't identify which ones.
12
were several different audits and inspections.
13
Q.
14
to request raw data, how would you -- how would you help the
15
monitor to go about requesting that?
16
A.
17
be the BIO, or Bureau of Internal Oversight, division and
18
collect that data and provide it to them.
19
Q.
21
16:10:50
We would definitely go to the responsive area, which would
Okay.
Can we look at page 15 of this exhibit.
And there's a paragraph that includes 2 percent of 47.
16:11:07
Scroll down, please.

Okay.
See the paragraph beginning "In November 2014"?
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
this paragraph also?
FR
And there
In your experience in working in CID, if the monitor needed
IEN
22
16:10:13
16:10:27
DS
20
Now, mcso.org, would that necessarily, when a report
And remember Mr. Young asking you questions about

16:11:33
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A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And he specifically focused -- well, do you recall if he
focused on language that states something to the effect,
There's 2 percent of 47 supervisors who were in compliance?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
What's the date, according to this document, as you could
read it, of that information?
A.
November of 2014, sir.
Q.
And below, I just want you to read below the sentence that
16:11:51
10
says -- has the information about the 2 percent of the 47
11
supervisors.
Could you just read to yourself the next couple of
12
13
sentences in that paragraph?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
No.
"As a result of this inspection --"
Sorry.
THE COURT:
16
16:12:20
I re- -- well...
THE WITNESS:
17
Yes, sir.
18
BY MR. POPOLIZIO:
19
Q.
20
review of policy and additional training?
21
A.
I do.
22
Q.
To your knowledge, as somebody who worked in CID and worked
IEN
DS
Now, do you see in this document that BIO recommended
23
along with BIO personnel, is this consistent with BIO's
24
purpose?
25
A.
FR
16:12:07
Yes, it's consistent with BIO and CID and the Monitor
16:12:39
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Team's purpose that feedback and recommendations be provided
when deficiencies are noted or we need to improve the mechanism
to make sure the reform and compliance measures are met.
Q.
regarding your participation in gathering of the 1500 IDs?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Okay.
time away from your efforts regarding compliance with the court
orders?
Do you remember answering questions from Mr. Young
And do you remember him asking you whether that took
10
A.
Yes, I do.
11
Q.
How much time did it take you -- well, strike that.
16:13:40
How much time did you devote to producing these 1500
12
13
IDs to the marshals?
14
A.
15
half.
16
then met them at Property, another hour and a half, so maybe
17
three hours -- three hours' total between the hearing and the
18
collection of the court-ordered request.
19
Q.
20
hours away from your time that you would devote to helping MCSO
21
be in compliance with the order.
22
A.
I believe I sat in the hearing here for hour, hour and a
We immediately went and collected those IDs at PSB and
16:13:59
DS
So with regard to the 1500 IDs, your involvement took three
16:14:26
IEN
Approximately, roughly, yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
from Mr. Young, regarding the monitor's criticism of the pace
25
of compliance of MCSO.
FR
16:13:22
There was also some testimony, or at least some questions
16:14:49
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Do you recall that?
1
2
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you disagree with the monitor's contention that the pace
of compliance is unacceptably slow?
A.
I do disagree with that, sir.
Q.
And please tell me why you disagree with that.
A.
Again, sitting in the seat that I sat in for the two years,
and even now out of that seat in patrol, I see how the effect
and the evolution has changed with the culture and environment.
16:15:03
What we all need to understand is we have to build a
10
11
foundation with compliance with a court order.
12
issued against the agency then entailed planning, proposal for
13
the resources needed, looking at the funding, and I think there
14
were a couple things that were brought up in today's today that
15
even things such as getting office space for the monitor, or a
16
fax machine, or a copy machine, and I think sometimes that kind
17
of gets left behind in the scenes when we're really focused on
18
the behavioral change, the training, the policy, which are very
19
important things.
20
because I have, and I rack my brain; I'm a very goal-oriented
21
person.
22
order, consent decree, and you look at the reporting
Court order
DS
IEN
16:16:06
If you look at any agency that has been under a court
mechanisms, there are some, even Oakland PD, that it took two
24
years to get any type of reform really started.
FR
16:15:48
But if you look at any -- and I challenge,
23
25
16:15:23
The fact that we hit the ground -- and again, maybe I
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am biased in being centered in the Court Implementation Unit,
but I can tell you that our staff, and the team of individuals
within the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, did work day in,
day out to consider and make sure that we were headed down the
correct path.
sure we had training to allocate and align with that policy
reform, documentation, something as simple as collecting the
traffic stop data, you know, we're still tweaking that today.
We still need to make sure that we're capturing everything.
Everything from policy reform, and then making
10
And again, not only with this order, but from a business
11
practice.
16:17:01
Bureau of Internal Oversight, that's been a huge help
12
13
to us, because they could run and start doing the audits and
14
the inspections internally, again, beyond the order per policy
15
issues.
This gives us the feedback needed to correct it.
16:17:18
And I can tell you from the seat that I was sitting in
16
and even the seat that I'm sitting in today, the last two
18
months, from an -- I went from an administrative to an
19
operational perspective of the changes and reform, and I can
20
tell you the almost 60 people I supervise embrace the essence
21
of the order and the need for the change.
DS
17
23
is a very large organization.
24
have to answer calls for service.
25
we're the third-largest county, larger than some states in the
FR
16:17:36
The problem is is people also need to understand this
IEN
22
16:16:43
We have over 3300 employees.
We
Geographically, we're one -16:17:55
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United States of America, and I believe we're somewhere around
the tenth largest as far as operationally between the jails.

And again, I'm not making excuses, but to change
3
4
culture and environment of 3300 employees, deliver the
training, and to get them on the right track and to get those
systems up and running, takes time.
to that, and I believe the people at least around me that I see
are dedicated to that.
And truly, I'm dedicated
It's a very positive influence.
And to be 50 percent, halfway compliant, Phase 1
9
10
compliant in less than two years, let's look at the numbers of
11
Oakland, Detroit, New Jersey; let's look at those other
12
agencies that went 10 years, 15 years, before their compliance
13
was achieved.
So are we perfect?
14
No.
compliance?
16
goals I wanted to have was have full at least Phase 1
17
compliance before I left.
18
goal and a realistic goal of 50 percent in a quarter was very
19
much successful to me.
20
questions that I was asked that you might have seen some
21
inflection of some personality, because I know I busted my
22
rear end and my people did to get where we are today.
FR
25
I'd love to sit here today, and one of the biggest
16:18:50
The fact that I think an attainable
And again, I know there's a lot of hard
DS
IEN
24
16:18:35
Would we like to make more
15
23
16:18:13
16:19:08
And this
office is committed to that.

And again, I'm not -- this isn't a publicity campaign.
This is people that are truly engaged in what they're doing.
16:19:22
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Skinner - X The Court, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
I'm not saying we don't have staff out there that, you know,
are trying to do the right thing but may not fully get it.
Maybe their learning curve is a little different; maybe they're
in a little different environment or area that they're assigned
to.
right path.
love to say we can move it faster.
Maybe we could.
But the reality is we're progressing and moving on the

Some people may feel it's slow.
And again, I'd
We're open to ideas and suggestions.
We're not shutting the door.
But I can tell you that it was
10
full steam ahead from the day I went down to Court
11
Implementation Unit, even to today, when I'm working on a
12
patrol facility I put in over 40, sometimes 60 hours a week, to
13
ensure my staff is complying with the order.
14
order, but the other reforms in the DOJ, the other reforms in
15
policy, in procedure, they're being conducted on a daily basis.
16
And we're committed to that, so -MR. POPOLIZIO:
17
16:19:57
And not just this
16:20:19
Thank you, Captain Skinner.

EXAMINATION
18
19
BY THE COURT:
20
Q.
21
questions.
22
A.
DS
Captain, now is the time I usually reserve for asking my
16:20:31
IEN
Yes.
23
Q.
24
all the other parties to ask questions after I ask questions if
25
they want to.
FR
16:19:43
And I do have a few for you.
And then because -- I allow
I want to ask questions about some of your
16:20:44
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testimony that I've heard today.
A.
Yes.
Q.
So I'm going to summarize that testimony, but I don't want
to misstate it.
got it wrong, don't hesitate to correct me.
your attorneys are here, too, to do the very same thing.
So if I say anything that you think, No, you

And of course,
I think you indicated this morning in your testimony
7
8
one of your goals was to make CID -- I mean, you didn't say CID
wouldn't be permanent, but you said it's also possible that it
10
would phase of our existence when it's not needed, or something
11
to that effect.
13
A.
14
more combined with the Bureau of Internal Oversight.
15
have a legal compliance division as well that would handle
16
other matters down the road.
17
Q.
18
spent a fair amount of time both in your direct and
19
cross-examination testimony talking about things that your
20
division did to produce documents, both for the parties and for
21
the monitor and for the Court.
22
ask a few questions to see if you know the answers.
I do recall, but not phase out.
That actually would be
And we do
16:21:30
IEN
DS
And I think you've indicated that -- well, I think you've
16:21:46
I want to talk -- well, let me
Do you know who normally the duty would belong to
24
within MCSO, before the existence of CID, to respond to
25
discovery requests, including document production requests in
FR
16:21:16
Do you recall that testimony?
12
23
16:20:57
16:22:17
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litigation?
A.
the compliance division of the Sheriff's Office.
Q.
responsibility for the legal liaison department as it pertained
to the production of documents ordered by the Court in this
case?
A.
assigned to CID.
I believe that would have been the legal liaison section of
All right.
And when did -- did you take over
That would have been -- I can speak from when I was
We were set up and read the order that we
10
would take that responsibility.
11
Farnsworth was assigned there, I believe that might have been
12
the reason he was brought down, but I don't know that to be
13
fact.
14
Q.
15
directly entered production orders in this case after you were
16
assigned to CID.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And one of them that was shown you was Exhibit 100.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
Now, we have had previous testimony from some of the MCSO
21
witnesses in this case that you were actually involved in
22
reviewing matters with them in April after the February
24
FR
25
Previous to that, when Captain
16:23:02
And there were a few times when the Court
DS
All right.
IEN
23
16:22:41
16:23:16
16:23:26
production.
Do you recall actually going and looking at the
computers of any HSU personnel in this case?
16:23:45
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A.
I believe that I had received notification from our legal
counsel.
order, or from plaintiffs' counsel or the Court, that I
actually went with our legal counsel to other members within
the office to collect or review their computer to get that
information that was being requested.
that was.
people named in it, but I did have other staff because there
was a short time line, so we wanted to get it accomplished very
I don't know if it was another issuance of a court
I don't recall what date
I personally believe I was at one or two of the
10
quickly.
11
Q.
12
of those officers, at least, testified that while the discovery
13
order was issued in February, you -- and I think they also --
14
at least one or two of them testified Ms. Iafrate came in
15
April, after they had been deposed, to look at their computers.
16:24:28
All right.
Well, I'll indicate to you that those -- some
A.
Again, not that I'm aware of.
18
disagree with it.
19
disseminated it per our policy, which would have been to the
20
bureau chiefs.
21
was provided, that I don't recall.
22
Q.
DS
17
IEN
All right.
I don't know that I would
I know that when the order came out, I
Whether that went beyond that or information
16:24:59
Now, if I recall correctly, and I'll check
23
myself, those same witnesses said -- those same witnesses like,
24
for instance, Sergeant Palmer --
FR
16:24:43
Would you disagree with that?
16
25
16:24:07
Do you know who Sergeant Palmer is?
16:25:13
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A.
Brett Palmer, sir?
Q.
Yes.
A.
I know of him, but I do not know him personally.
Q.
Do you remember whether you went and looked at his
computer?
A.
may have, though.
Q.
at sergeant -- or Lieutenant Sousa's computer?
16:25:23
I did not.
Personally, I did not.
A member of my division
Do you remember whether you went and looked at, personally,
10
A.
I did.
11
Q.
And I believe Lieutenant Sousa testified that at the time,
12
the computer he had was not the computer he had when he was at
13
HSU.
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
Do you remember whether you took the steps to locate the
16
computer he had at HSU?
17
A.
18
drive, which was a backup drive of his computer that I believe
19
was provided to Miss Iafrate and myself.
As far as the previous computer, again, I think
they -- Miss Iafrate looked at the computer there.
22
know for a fact if we looked for the older computer.
IEN
21
All right.
16:26:03
I don't
23
Q.
24
trying to find fault here; I'm just trying to find out what was
25
done and what was not done.
FR
16:25:43
I recall that he had what he referred to as a Buffalo
DS
20
16:25:32
So for -- can I generalize that -- and I'm not
16:26:26
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A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
There were other officers like Lieutenant Jakowinicz,
Sergeant Trowbridge, who have also testified in this action
about what happened in response to the February order of the
Court.
April 2015 were no longer working at HSU.
Do you re- -- and I think all of them, of course, by
Do you remember going back to look at any -- or try to
7
8
locate any of their computers or information that they were
using when they were at HSU?
10
A.
11
did notify our IT department.
12
advised of the court order on -- when it was issued and then
13
reiterated again, I believe, in April.
14
I would hope that that would have been followed up, but I do
15
not personally know, sir.
16
Q.
17
functions that would normally belong to legal liaison in terms
18
of responding to discovery requests made in a court action, did
19
you make any effort to assess the downfalls of legal liaison in
20
this action, in responding to the discovery in this action?
21
A.
From the previous account, sir?
22
Q.
Yes.
Again, I don't know that we personally took steps, but we
And if that was noted,
16:27:18
Let me ask you:
When you took over the
IEN
DS
All right.
Not personally, no.
16:26:56
All the bureau chiefs were
23
A.
24
downfalls based off of the Court's findings and corrective
25
statement measures that we implemented that all court
FR
16:26:39
16:27:45
Obviously, we were aware of the
16:28:02
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documentation or orders coming from this Court would go through
CID.
So we did not -- we assessed the fact that there
3
4
wasn't true dissemination to all parties, or me as a patrol
lieutenant not knowing about it, how could we at least put a
procedure out there to ensure that was being disseminated, and
so we did.
Q.
wanted to make sure everybody was covered.
You did that for purposes of CID's dissemination; you
10
A.
11
forward.
12
Q.
13
of a different question.
14
A.
Okay.
15
Q.
Did you do any assessment as to MCSO's past practices
16
through legal liaison, so that when and if CID merges with BIO,
17
those past practices would be corrected?
18
A.
No, I don't think we'd gotten that far yet, sir.
19
Q.
All right.
20
addition to -- if I say something like "preservation letters,"
21
do you have any idea what that means in the context of this
22
case?
Yes, and anything that was a court-related matter moving
IEN
16:28:38
But now I'm ask -- what I'm asking is a little bit
16:28:48
Did you do any -- are you aware that in
DS
Okay.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
So I assume you didn't do any looking into why the
25
preservation letters that would have saved a lot of this
FR
16:28:23
16:29:10
16:29:21
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material in this case weren't disseminated?
A.
The time frame on that, sir, the only preservation --
Q.
That would have been a long time ago, like 2000- -- I think
the dissemination letters were sent out in 2008.
A.
Sir, again, I was not aware of the matter back then, so...
Q.
Right.
to assess what went wrong there and correct it through policy
or anything like that?
A.
And what I'm asking is, as CIO you weren't trying
No, sir.
I think we were looking forward but hadn't
10
rekindled the past at that point.
11
Q.
12
past discovery requests that were made in this action by the
13
plaintiffs prior to trial and try to figure out why no
14
responses were made, or not -- inadequate responses were made?
15
A.
16
forward with the requests that were current and moving in that
17
direction.
18
Q.
19
to sending preservation letters through legal counsel, also
20
sent preservation letters -- or also sent very similar requests
21
that were Arizona Public Records Access Act requests?
I think we were just, again, making progress
16:30:07
DS
Are you aware that plaintiffs in this matter, in addition
16:30:23
Were you aware of that at all?
23
A.
No, I was not, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
trying to suggest you do -- but do you know who handles Arizona
FR
16:29:53
So you didn't necessarily look at my past -- or the
No, sir.
IEN
22
Right.
16:29:36
And do you know -- and maybe you don't, I'm not

16:30:44
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Public Records Access Act requests at MCSO?
A.
I could assume, but I don't know for a fact.
Q.
All right.
So don't assume.
And so I take it that you didn't go back and look at
4
5
how the MCSO processed that Public Access Act request to try to
correct that, either?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Now, when you decided how you, as CID, were going to
proceed, you didn't propose any new policies that MCSO should
10
implement in terms of responding to legal discovery requests
11
that should be binding after your division may fade into BIO,
12
did you?
13
A.
14
operational manual that does address those concerns relative to
15
this matter.
16
is something good that we should probably do.
17
Q.
No.
16:31:27
Again, moving forward we came up with CID's
You know, again, moving forward, that obviously
All right.
16:31:44
Excuse me a second.
Now, you indicated that what you're trying to do is
18
implement best practices.
20
A.
Yes, sir, along with the requirements of the order.
21
Q.
When you were first made a sergeant in District 4, you
22
testified that you'd supervised a squad of seven to eight
IEN
DS
19
23
people, I think you said.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Would that be consistent with best practices?
FR
16:31:02
16:32:24
16:32:37
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A.
At the time, I believe so, sir.
Q.
And you talked about your current Lake Division.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And you have 60 personnel.
sworn, and five, I assume, were administrative?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And of the 55 who are sworn, there's you, you're a captain.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
There's two lieutenants.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
There's 14 sergeants.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
So there would be approximately 38 deputies, 38 -- I mean,
14
I realize that you testified that -- well, that would be 38
15
deputies, then, approximately.
16
A.
Roughly, sir.
17
Q.
So that would be about one sergeant to every 2.1 or 2.2
18
deputies?
19
A.
We're nine vacancies short, sir, with deputies, so yes.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
that would be one sergeant to about every three deputies.
22
A.
You thought 55 of them were
16:33:05
16:33:18
So if you had nine deputies, nine more deputies,
DS
IEN
Yes.
16:33:34
Please understand that two of those sergeants are
23
basically administrative fill-in sergeants, so that when we
24
have a sergeant that is in training or is off sick, that we
25
have a supervisor, not an acting supervisor.
FR
16:32:54
So if you remove
16:33:54
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that from the equation we start to go up a little bit.
Q.
Okay.
A.
And geographically we literally have the 9200 square miles
of the Sheriff's Office within the forest, the lakes, the
rivers, so we do have supervision that is far reaching in
remote areas.
Q.
the two sergeants that are administrative, we'd have 10
sergeants.
Let's remove that from the equation.
So if we remove the two deputies we'd have -- or we remove
And if we filled the nine vacancies we'd then
10
have --
11
A.
4.55 sergeants, somewhere around there, sir, yes.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
A.
It would probably be better than best practices, to some
14
degree.
15
environment.
16
recreational area.
17
Q.
18
nature of how the timing went in this case to enter the ratio
19
you've discussed, the supervisory ratio, before I had a monitor
20
appointed or anything else.
21
considering is whether or not supervision is adequate within
22
the MCSO.
16:34:29
Would that be consistent with best practices?
It just -- again, I'm in a -- ours is in a unique

We don't have 24/7 coverage in the area, the
IEN
DS
Well, let me ask you this.
16:34:47
I actually was required by the
And one of the issues that I'm
23
In your research as the -- when you were researching
24
best practices, did you research what the best practice ratio
25
is from sergeants to patrol deputies?
FR
16:34:12
16:35:01
16:35:17
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A.
Yes, I did, sir.
Q.
And what is the best practice?
A.
In the neighborhood and there's actually some consent
decrees that suggest six to eight, upwards to 10.
Q.
All right.
Thank you.
You testified about the community outreach component.
6
7
I presume -- were you at CID at the time that I changed the
order to remove the community outreach component?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
concerned me at that time was that the first community outreach
12
meeting was apparently scheduled at 8:30 in December on a
13
Saturday morning in a parking lot?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Did you schedule that meeting at 8:30 on Saturday morning
16
in a parking lot?
17
A.
No, I did not, sir.
18
Q.
Do you know who did?
19
A.
I do not, sir.
20
Farnsworth, and it was -- I was a lieutenant, so that was above
21
my -- my decision or rank at that time.
22
Q.
I was seated in the hearing.
And you're aware, then, that one of the things that
16:35:52
16:36:03
DS
I worked at the time for Captain
16:36:14
IEN
Did you know -- if you were here at the hearing, you were
23
aware that it was the position of the MCSO that they did not
24
want to be compelled to speak and to engage in any sort of
25
community outreach.
FR
16:35:38
16:36:32
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Is that a fair characterization that that was
1
2
compelled?
I'm not saying that they didn't want to do their
own community outreach, but they didn't want to do any
community outreach that they viewed as being compelled by the
Court.

MR. POPOLIZIO:
6
7
BY THE COURT:
Q.
hearing?
10
A.
THE COURT:
16:36:52
Objection's overruled.
THE WITNESS:
That's what our attorneys asserted at
the hearing, sir.
THE COURT:
14
Thank you, Captain.
16:37:10
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
17
Mr. Popolizio, any follow-ups to that?
MR. POPOLIZIO:
18
THE COURT:
No, Your Honor.
Any follow-ups?
MR. WALKER:
DS
19
No questions, Your Honor.
MR. MURDY:
No, Your Honor.
MR. YOUNG:
No, Your Honor.
23
THE COURT:
Thank you.
24
THE WITNESS:
25
MR. YOUNG:
21
FR
IEN
22
Those are all my
questions.
16
20
Were you present in the
Yes, I was, sir.
12
15
Were you present in the meeting?
11
13
16:36:47
16:37:21
You may step down.
Thank you, sir.
Your Honor, plaintiffs call Michael Zullo.
16:37:32
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. MASTERSON:
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Your Honor, before we do that, can
we -- may we address some things about this testimony with the
Court?
THE COURT:
16:37:40
(Off-the-record discussion between the clerk and the
6
7
Sure.
Court.)
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. MASTERSON:
I'm a little concerned how we're going
10
to proceed.
I know that the plaintiffs filed a motion this
11
morning.
12
actually.
13
proceed with this witness.
I glanced through it at lunch -- or after lunch,

That may have an impact on how we're going to
It appears to me that we're going to have to proceed
14
15
question by question with the witness for the Court to make a
16
determination as to whether there's an appropriate invocation
17
of the Fifth Amendment privilege.
plaintiffs and the defendants to have a fair hearing.
It's
20
also very important for Mr. Zullo that his Fifth Amendment
21
protections are adequately guarded during this hearing.
DS
19
16:38:45
IEN
I would like to have the chance to take a close look
23
at plaintiffs' motion, respond to that motion prior to the
24
examination of Mr. Zullo, because it may have an impact on our
25
positions with respect to various questions and exhibits that
FR
16:38:23
My concern is it's obviously very important for the
18
22
16:38:06
16:39:08
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may be offered to or through Mr. Zullo during his testimony.
Because the question with respect to whether there is going to
be an inference permitted is again going to be a
question-by-question determination by the Court, and contingent
on a number of different factors that I think require close
analysis by the parties and the Court prior to a ruling by the
Court on those issues.

THE COURT:
8
9
10
Yeah.
I do share some of your concerns.
Let me tell you why I think we might at least be able to start

today, but let me get your input on that.
16:39:49
I have not yet read -- I have read plaintiffs' motion,
11
12
because I saw it was -- over lunch, too.
13
But I didn't do it in any sort of a comprehensive way.
14
haven't read the exhibits that interest me.
I saw it was filed.

And I
One of the exhibits that interests me is --
15
16
apparently, it included the text of Mr. Zullo's deposition on
17
Monday.
18
believe that Mr. Zullo, of course, has a Fifth Amendment
19
privilege and right which needs to be respected.
I didn't have a chance to read that yet.
you know, Mr. Jirauch in our hearing yesterday said you also
22
have to proceed on a question-by-question basis.
IEN
21
23
24
FR
25
16:40:07
And I do
One of the issues that pertains to that -- however, as
DS
20
16:39:34
16:40:24
I think he's
quite right about that, too.

But I don't want to subject -- here's what I'm going
to address.
And I don't know who's going to do the
16:40:41
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questioning, whether it's you, Ms. Wang, Mr. Young, Ms. Morin;
I don't know who it's going to be.
3
4
MR. YOUNG:
I will, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
I don't want to unfairly
subject Mr. Zullo to having to take the Fifth question after
question after question if he's going to take the Fifth to
anything, on the one hand.
that his invocation of the Fifth, you're going to argue I can
use sufficiently to establish a foundation, I understand that
On the other hand, to the extent
10
you may have to ask specific questions related to specific
11
exhibits.
13
Mr. -- is the exhibits through Mr. Zullo, my suggestion would
14
be that you ought to limit your questions to those exhibits.
15
If there are other matters that are important to you that you
16
think I want to -- that I could draw a negative inference from
17
or an inference from the invocation of the Fifth, I'll allow
18
you to ask those questions, too, but I want to really have them
19
limited.
DS
And then here's my other reaction.
After you've
established whatever evidentiary foundation you need to make
22
the argument that you have made in the motion that you have
IEN
21
23
filed, it seems to me that I can take whether or not I'm going
24
to admit those exhibits under advisement, because Mr. Zullo's
25
not going to an -- I mean, it seems to me very likely that
FR
16:41:10
But to the extent what you really want to get in is
12
20
16:40:51
16:41:25
16:41:38
16:41:56
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Mr. Zullo is not going to answer any questions relating to
those exhibits if he takes the Fifth on it.
If I can then take it under advisement, I can give
3
4
Mr. Masterson a fair chance to respond to your memorandum in a
way that won't be rushed and allow me and you to consider it
carefully.
That doesn't mean, Mr. Masterson, that I'm going to
7
8
give you the normal briefing time, but I do think it's fair to
give you more than, you know, today.
But I don't know why we can't proceed to some extent
10
11
with laying whatever evidentiary foundation there may be, if
12
Mr. Zullo takes the Fifth with respect to those things.
14
constitutional right, and I don't want to have him -- I don't
15
want to subject him to having -- and, yet, it has to be invoked
16
on a question-by-question basis.
16:42:43
But I don't want to unfairly invoke -- I don't want to
17
make you -- I don't want to have him be required to invoke it
19
time and time and time again to questions that aren't
20
specifically related to either the introduction of evidence
21
that you think I can introduce, or to matters about which you
22
really don't have a basis for me to draw any sort of inference
IEN
DS
18
from the invocation of the Fifth.
16:43:00
I want those limited.
24
Are you prepared to proceed on that basis, Mr. Young?
25
MR. YOUNG:
FR
16:42:24
But I did -- I do think it's important to say it is a
13
23
16:42:12
Yes, Your Honor.
16:43:17
THE COURT:
1
2
All right.
MR. MASTERSON:
we're going to do here.
of a lot now.
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
Not -- as long as I understand what
Probably not going to do a whole heck
16:43:30
No, we're going to do 15 minutes' worth.
MR. MASTERSON:
10
Any objection if we go -- go
forward on that basis, Mr. Masterson?
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Yeah.
But I hate to have Mr. Zullo have waited
all day because we were requiring him to be here and then not
do anything.
16:43:39
MR. MASTERSON:
11
I certainly agree with that, Judge,
12
and let's see how far we can get.
13
and make objections how I would normally make objections to the
14
testimony, questions, potential exhibits, even though we're
15
going to be briefing the issue later?

THE COURT:
16
Just -- should I go ahead
You can if you want, but let me tell you
17
that to the extent -- I don't think you have to, because it's
18
not my inclination to make a ruling on any of the exhibits.
If happens what I expect to happen, then there's not
19
going to be any questions answered about the exhibits, and the
21
only question is going to be whether I admit them into
22
evidence.
IEN
DS
20
16:44:11
And so if, in fact, Mr. Zullo answers questions,
23
then we may have to reassess this.
24
think I can just take under advisement the issue of whether or
25
not I'm going to admit the exhibits, and then give you a fair
FR
16:43:50
But if he does not, then I
16:44:29
opportunity, and the County a fair opportunity, to respond
based on the questions asked -MR. MASTERSON:
THE COURT:
4
5
Okay.
-- and any specific inference that may or
may not be drawn based on those questions.

MR. MASTERSON:
6
7
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All right.
16:44:37
I think I know enough we
can get started, then.

THE COURT:
All right.
MR. JIRAUCH:
Your Honor, for purposes of the record,
10
I'd just like to point out that the County did file, and I
11
believe the Sheriff's Office did agree to, objections to
12
certain of the exhibits last night, just so that there is a
13
record of that.
14
made no objections, then we have no objections to their being
15
introduced except for a lack of authentication.

THE COURT:
16
THE COURT:
18
DS
MR. YOUNG:
23
24
FR
25
Right.
All right.
And just for clarity, in response to
16:45:11
Mr. Jirauch's -MR. JIRAUCH:
IEN
22
16:45:01
Mr. Young.
19
21
To the extent we
A lack of authentication?
MR. JIRAUCH:
17
20
It was done in an e-mail.
16:44:44
MR. YOUNG:
something.
And foundation.
-- comment, I think he said he filed
We received an e-mail, but I --
MR. JIRAUCH:
That's what I said.
I did not file it.
16:45:21
MR. YOUNG:
Thank you.
I served an e-mail.
THE CLERK:
Please come right up here, sir.
Can you please state and spell your first and last
5
6
Oh.
MR. JIRAUCH:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Michael Zullo, Z-u-l-l-o.
Please raise your right hand.
(Michael Zullo is duly sworn as a witness.)
THE CLERK:
10
Please take our witness stand.
12
BY MR. YOUNG:
13
Q.
Good afternoon, Mr. Zullo.
14
A.
Good afternoon, sir.
15
Q.
Could you state your name for the record.
16
A.
Michael Zullo.
17
Q.
We met earlier, but I'm Stan Young.
18
plaintiffs' counsel in this case.
16:46:46
I'm one of the
Did you discuss your intention to invoke the Fifth
19
DS
Amendment with any attorneys at Jones, Skelton?

MR. MASTERSON:
Hold on.
16:47:03
We
do not represent this witness civilly or criminally in this
IEN
22
16:46:34
DIRECT EXAMINATION
11
21
23
matter.
24
and those conversations are protected due to our representation
25
of Sheriff Arpaio in this matter.
FR
16:46:02
name for the record.
20
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Zullo - DX Young, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing
However, we have had conversations with this witness,
16:47:33
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Sheriff Arpaio holds that privilege, and Mr. Zullo, as
1
2
a Posse member, in speaking to us, can speak freely to us, and
the conversations are privileged by virtue of the
attorney-client privilege that is held by Sheriff Arpaio.

THE COURT:
I'm not going to allow you to play fish or
fowl.
capacity as an operative of the MCSO, or you do not.
I mean, either you represent this witness in his
Which is it?
MR. MASTERSON:
We do not represent the witness, but
10
we do have the ability to have privileged conversations with
11
the witness because of our representation of Sheriff Arpaio.

THE COURT:
12
witness is going to invoke the Fifth Amendment you're claiming
14
that?
MR. MASTERSON:
15
THE COURT:
16
No, sir.
No, sir.
Okay.
But I just wanted to make it
18
clear that there are communications this witness can have and
19
has had with us that will be protected.
DS
THE COURT:
All right.
To the extent that you're
advising me that you may make such objections in the future, I
22
am forewarned.
IEN
21
23
16:48:35
But I do not believe the question as posed
implicates that, and so I'm overruling the objection.
24
MR. MASTERSON:
25
THE COURT:
FR
16:48:26
Well, that was the question.
MR. MASTERSON:
17
16:48:14
As it relates to whether or not the
13
20
16:47:54
Thank you, Judge.
You may answer, Mr. Zullo.
16:48:53
THE WITNESS:
Yes, I did.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
firm about whether you would invoke the Fifth Amendment?
A.
my Fifth Amendment privilege.
by answering these questions.
Q.
Skelton about whether you would invoke the Fifth Amendment?
What have you discussed with anyone at the Jones, Skelton
Mr. Young, I'm not represented by counsel, and I do invoke
Who were the lawyers or lawyer that you spoke to at Jones,
A.
Both Mr. Popolizio and Mr. Masterson.
11
Q.
When did you have any such conversations?
12
A.
Months back.
13
before my deposition.
14
Q.
15
Fifth Amendment?
16
A.
17
having me testify here.
And current, and right about couple days
16:49:38
Counsel, like I said, I'm not represented, and you're
I want to make sure I'm not waiving my privilege, Your
Honor.
I don't know what's really going on at this point.
DS
THE COURT:
Do you want to be heard on if there's any
possible incriminating -- anything incriminating to Mr. Zullo
22
in answering that question?
IEN
21
23
Would you read back the question for me, Gary, please.
24
(The record was read by the court reporter as follows:
FR
25
16:49:17
Did Mr. Popolizio or Mr. Masterson ask you to invoke the
18
20
16:49:03
I don't know if I'm waiving that
10
19
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Did Mr. Popolizio or Mr. Masterson ask you to invoke the Fifth
16:49:52
16:49:34
Amendment?)
THE COURT:
I am having a hard time seeing that there
would be any incriminating aspect to Mr. Zullo by answering
that question.
THE COURT:
Any other counsel see any concern for
I am going to direct you to answer that question,
then, Mr. Zullo, please.

THE WITNESS:
11
16:50:45
If I understood the question, is it
12
"they" instructed me?
13
BY MR. YOUNG:
14
Q.
Well, I didn't use that phrase.
15
A.
Could you repeat it, then, sir?
16
Q.
Yeah.
17
A.
Okay.
18
Q.
You participated in an investigation involving Dennis
19
Montgomery, and at various times Detective Mackiewicz and
20
Sergeant Anglin, that we'll call the Seattle investigation, is
21
that correct?
22
A.
16:50:53
DS
Why don't I withdraw the question.
16:51:10
IEN
Sir, I invoked my Fifth Amendment privileges yesterday
23
during deposition, and I am invoking them here today.
24
Q.
Did Sheriff Arpaio ask you to work on that investigation?
25
A.
I invoke my Fifth Amendment privileges, sir.
FR
16:50:27
incrimination?
9
10
I do not see any incrimination, any
incriminating nature of that, if he answers this question.
7
8
Do you want to be heard on that?
MR. MASTERSON:
5
6
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16:51:28
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Q.
Did you stay in communication with Sheriff Arpaio
throughout the course of that investigation?
A.
I'm taking the Fifth, sir.
Q.
Did you stay in communication with chief dep- -- Chief
Sheridan with respect to that investigation throughout its
course?
A.
I am taking the Fifth, sir.
Q.
Are you still in communication with Sheriff Arpaio and
Chief Sheridan about the Seattle investigation?

A.
11
Q.
Did Sheriff Arpaio ask you to have Dennis Montgomery search
12
for information on Judge Snow?
13
A.
14
Q.
Detective Mackiewicz testified that you had Dennis
15
Montgomery look for information about Judge Snow, is that
16
correct?
17
A.
18
Q.
Did you discuss with Sheriff Arpaio having Dennis
19
Montgomery look for information about Judge Snow?
20
A.
Taking the Fifth, sir.
21
Q.
Did you tell Sheriff Arpaio that Mr. Montgomery and you had
22
found information relating to Judge Snow?
IEN
DS
10
A.
24
Q.
Did you have Mr. Montgomery search for information about
25
Earl Wilcox?
FR
23
16:51:47
16:52:00
16:52:23
16:52:36
16:53:03
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A.
Q.
Did you talk to Sheriff Arpaio about such information?
A.
Q.
In early 2013 and -- actually, sorry.
early 2014, was Sheriff Arpaio calling you almost every day
asking for updates on what you were doing with --
A.
Taking the --
Q.
-- Dennis Montgomery?
A.
10
Q.
Did you make some audio recordings during the course of
11
your investigation with Dennis Montgomery?
12
A.
13
Q.
Did you use a cell phone to make those audio recordings?
14
A.

MR. YOUNG:
15
In late 2013 and
I'm going to ask that the first couple
16
minutes of Exhibit 2978 be played.
17
earlier today, but I'll ask for that.
16:53:38
16:54:03
We heard them a little bit
Actually, Your Honor, in fact, before we -- it occurs
18
to me, we had a conference yesterday and Your Honor asked about
20
transcripts of those sound recordings.
21
just gotten transcripts.
22
end of the day, it would make sense for me to defer questions
IEN
DS
19
I understand we have
16:54:31
So perhaps, given that we're at the
23
on the sound recordings until Thursday, which I think is
24
consistent with some requests I've gotten from defense counsel.
25
So I'll move to another area of questions.
FR
16:53:24
16:54:49
THE COURT:
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Yeah.
You got about five minutes,
Mr. Young.
MR. YOUNG:
3
4
usefully.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Understood.
I'll try to use them
16:54:59
Let's take a look at Exhibit 2074A.
Mr. Zullo, you'll see a screen in front of you on
7
8
which the exhibits will appear.
send this fax to Sheriff Arpaio?
Did you have Dennis Montgomery
A.
11
Q.
Did Sheriff Arpaio request that you have Dennis Montgomery
12
send this information to him?
13
A.
14
Q.
Did you discuss this information with Sheriff Arpaio?
15
A.
16
Q.
Did you discuss this information with Chief Sheridan?
17
A.
18
Q.
Did you give Sheriff Arpaio's and Chief Sheridan's
19
cell phone numbers to Mr. Montgomery for him to use to
20
determine whether there were any wiretaps associated with those
21
numbers?
22
A.
DS
10
24
FR
25
Q.
16:55:37
16:55:57
IEN
23
16:55:23
Let's take a look at Exhibit 2074B.

There's some discussion on this memo of Judge Snow's
family members, his sister-in-law in handwriting at the top and
16:56:20
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his wife in the typewritten bottom paragraph.
Did you ever discuss with Sheriff Arpaio whether
2
3
either of those people worked for the Covington & Burling law
firm?
A.
Q.
Did you ever discuss with Sheriff Arpaio senator -- or
former Senator Jon Kyle?
A.
Q.
Did you assist Sheriff Arpaio in investigating suspected
wiretapping of his or his wife's phones?
11
A.
12
Q.
You had some meetings with Dennis Montgomery, or involving
13
him with Judge Royce Lamberth in Washington, D.C., correct?
14
A.
15
Q.
Did you discuss information that Dennis Montgomery had
16
provided to you with Judge Lamberth?
17
A.
18
Q.
Did you discuss with Judge Lamberth potential wiretaps of
19
the sheriff by either the Department of Justice or ordered by
20
Judge Snow?
21
A.
22
Q.
Did you later realize that the information that you had
IEN
DS
10
presented, along with Mr. Montgomery, to Judge Lamberth was
24
incorrect?
25
A.
FR
23
16:56:32
16:56:53
16:57:15
16:57:32
16:57:44
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Q.
Did you ever have an argument or disagreement with either
Larry Klayman or Mr. Montgomery about whether you should go
back to Judge Lamberth and correct the information that you had
provided to him?
A.
Q.
Did you ever go back to Judge Lamberth to correct the
information that had been given to him that was incorrect?
A.
Q.
You discussed the issue of immunity for Mr. Montgomery with
16:58:01
10
a number of people, correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
Among those people were Sheriff Arpaio and also the Arizona
13
attorney general, correct?
14
A.
15
Q.
You knew that if what Mr. Montgomery had told you was true,
16
that he would have been involved and would be involved in
17
potentially a crime and would want immunity, correct?
18
A.
19
Q.
Let's look at Exhibit 2079.
20
messages that's been admitted into evidence.
a message to Sergeant Anglin referring to Mr. Montgomery, code
23
name Oz, who had been, quote, mapping out cell phone calls and
24
then line calls back to 2009 involving Judge Snow, end quote,
25
correct?
FR
16:59:22
In the first text message on the first page, you sent
IEN
22
16:58:41
Now, that's a series of text
DS
21
16:58:29
16:59:46
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A.
Q.
Okay.
Mr. Montgomery, correct?
A.
Q.
Okay.
I'll just quote it:
your view at the time was, correct?
A.
You had been discussing that work with
Your view was that the work and the stuff -- well,
The stuff looks promising.
That's what
9
10
THE COURT:
Are we at a good stopping point here?
MR. YOUNG:
If I could ask a couple more questions and
11
be done with this exhibit, Your Honor, that would be convenient
12
to me.
13
14
THE COURT:
You may.
MR. YOUNG:
Thank you.
15
BY MR. YOUNG:
16
Q.
17:00:12
17:00:19
Let's go to the sixth page of Exhibit 2079.
Actually, how about the fifth page, the previous page.
17
In the message that's shown on that page, you said
18
that you just got off the phone with the sheriff, is that
20
right?
21
A.
22
Q.
That was New Year's Day 2014, correct?
IEN
DS
19
23
A.
24
Q.
And you were keeping the sheriff closely informed of what
25
you and Mr. Montgomery were discussing, correct?
FR
16:59:55
17:00:53
17:01:11
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A.
Q.
Then you arranged with Sergeant Anglin for a meeting
involving the sheriff on January 2 at 3 p.m. to talk about the
information that Mr. Montgomery was providing, is that right?
A.
Q.
Going to the next page of the text message string, you
concede that you told Sergeant Anglin that you had told
Mr. Montgomery that he would be on a speakerphone so that he
could discuss the work that he was doing with the various
17:01:30
10
people, including attorneys, who would be at that meeting,
11
correct?
12
A.

MR. YOUNG:
13
14
Your Honor, thank you for your indulgence.
This would be a convenient breaking time.

THE COURT:
15
All right.
17:01:58
Now, Mr. Zullo, we have you back on Thursday morning.
16
THE WITNESS:
17
THE COURT:
18
Sure.
I have exacted from the parties, who want
to make sure that you're asked specific questions, that you're
20
not asked any more specific questions than are necessary -THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
IEN
22
DS
19
21
-- so that it doesn't overly implicate
your Fifth Amendment rights.
24
that, even though they do have a right to ask you questions.
FR
17:02:12
Thank you.
23
25
17:01:47
THE WITNESS:
I'm going to hold the parties to
Um-hum.
I understand.
17:02:24
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
I'll be here.
Thank you.
THE WITNESS:
What time?
We will resume here at 9 o'clock.
THE WITNESS:
17:02:32
Thank you, sir.
You may step down.
Oh, did you have something you wanted to say?
MR. MASTERSON:
An objection to Mr. Young's last
question, and he was reading from the exhibit.

THE COURT:
11
12
But we'll resume again Thursday morning.
THE WITNESS:
10
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17:02:39
I think that exhibit's been admitted into
evidence.
MR. MASTERSON:
13
Well, it is.
It is admitted into
14
evidence.
15
there's going to be some conversation on a speakerphone
16
involving attorneys, and I don't see a single word there about
17
attorneys, so...
THE COURT:
18
20
He read
You can correct it when we resume on
MR. YOUNG:
I wasn't meaning at that moment, and I
hope I didn't give the wrong impression, to quote that exact
22
language.
IEN
21
17:03:06
I was referring generally to the text message
23
string, and there is another place, the previous page, which
24
does refer to a couple of attorneys being at that meeting, so
25
that's what I was referring to.
FR
17:02:50
Thursday morning.
DS
19
I just wish he would read it correctly.
17:03:21
THE COURT:
1
2
All right.
I will see the parties here
Thursday morning in time to resume at 9 o'clock.

Yes, Ms. Wang.
MR. WANG:
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5
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Your Honor, we would request an update on
whether defendants intend to call Chief Deputy Sheridan.

MR. MASTERSON:
That has not changed since yesterday,
Judge, and I think it's going to depend on what we -- what
decisions are made with respect to Mr. Zullo's testimony, and
any inferences that may be drawn from his testimony or lack
10
thereof.
17:03:51
THE COURT:
11
If you're going to call Chief Deputy
12
Sheridan, is he going to be available on Thursday?
13
don't anticipate, at least, that you're going to have a whole
14
lot more questions -- well, you may have some more questions,
15
but I anticipate they'll go rather rapidly with Mr. Zullo.

MR. YOUNG:
16
Because I
in particular the sound recordings -- well, actually, I'm not
18
sure about the sound recordings.
19
hours, but it won't take the whole day.
MS. WANG:
THE COURT:
IEN
22
DS
21
THE COURT:
23
24
FR
25
17:04:04
As I mentioned yesterday, I think because
17
20
17:03:32
It may still take a couple of
All right.
17:04:21
Your Honor -I'd just like to know whether we're going
to have Chief Deputy Sheridan here, if he's going to testify.

MR. MASTERSON:
As of yesterday, Chief Deputy Sheridan
was intending to be here Thursday and Friday.
17:04:34
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THE COURT:
MS. WANG:
All right.
Thank you.
Your Honor, in the joint pretrial
statement, defendants indicated that they would call
Chief Deputy Sheridan on a number of topics.

THE COURT:
MR. WANG:
Yes.
17:04:44
I would infer from Mr. Masterson's
statement that they're withdrawing him on all topics other than
those on which Mr. Zullo is testifying, is that correct?

MR. MASTERSON:
That is the appropriate inference at
10
this moment.
May I have until tomorrow afternoon to advise
11
Ms. Wang whether that changes?

THE COURT:
12
THE COURT:
14
MS. WANG:
15
THE COURT:
16
17
morning, 9 o'clock.
18
MR. YOUNG:
IEN
22
DS
21
23
24
FR
25
That is fine with me, Judge.
All right.
I appreciate that.
All right.
Thank you.
We'll see you Thursday
(Proceedings recessed at 5:05 p.m.)
19
20
How about early afternoon?
MR. MASTERSON:
13
17:05:03
17:05:15
4297
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C E R T I F I C A T E
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4
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6
I, GARY MOLL, do hereby certify that I am duly
7
8
appointed and qualified to act as Official Court Reporter for
the United States District Court for the District of Arizona.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing pages constitute
10
11
a full, true, and accurate transcript of all of that portion of
12
the proceedings contained herein, had in the above-entitled
13
cause on the date specified therein, and that said transcript
14
was prepared under my direction and control.
15
16
DATED at Phoenix, Arizona, this 11th day of November,
17
18
2015.
20
21
IEN
22
DS
19
23
24
FR
25
s/Gary Moll

Melendres v. Arpaio #1544 Nov 10 2015 TRANSCRIPT - DAY 18 Evidentiary Hearing

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Melendres v. Arpaio #1544 Nov 10 2015 TRANSCRIPT - DAY 18 Evidentiary Hearing

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OF

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

Manuel de Jesus Ortega Melendres,

Joseph M. Arpaio, et al.,

(Evidentiary Hearing Day 18, Pages 4064-4297)

BEFORE THE HONORABLE G. MURRAY SNOW

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Proceedings taken by stenographic court reporter

For the Plaintiffs:

For the Defendant Maricopa County:

For the Defendant Joseph M. Arpaio and Maricopa County

Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, PLC

For Deputy Chief Jack MacIntyre:

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

For the Intervenor United States of America:

U.S. Department of Justice - Civil Rights Division

For Executive Chief Brian Sands:

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

Direct Examination by Mr. Popolizio

Direct Examination by Mr. Young

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner from

MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner re

E-mail chain re Arpaio/Melendres litigation

Letter from M. Iafrate re litigation hold

MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner from

E-mail chain re M. Zullo response to ITR 51

MCSO Memorandum to Captain Skinner from

E-mail from Russ Skinner to Michael Zullo

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

This is CV 07-2513, Melendres, et al., v.

Good morning, Your Honor.

the ACLU for plaintiffs.

Good morning, Your Honor.

Good morning, Your Honor.

Killebrew, Maureen Johnston, and Cynthia Coe for the United

Good morning, Your Honor.

Popolizio and John Masterson of Jones, Skelton & Hochuli, and

along with us is Holly McGee.

on behalf of Maricopa County, and I believe we'll be joined

Michelle Morin, with Covington & Burling, for plaintiffs.

Counsel, please announce your appearances.

Arpaio, et al., on for continued evidentiary hearing.

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

shortly by Charles Jirauch.

Good morning, Your Honor.

behalf of retired Chief Brian Sands.

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing

Good morning, Your Honor.

Iafrate on behalf of Sheriff Arpaio and the nonparty alleged

Good morning, Your Honor.

Birnbaum appearing as special counsel for Deputy Chief

Judge, I just want to note for the

that he has a sentencing hearing and will be here a bit later,

but I wanted the record to note that he will be attending and

has notified the Court that he will be a bit late.

Your Honor, this is Stanley Young for

sequence of discovery, and in particular, since Mr. Zullo's

final deposition transcript is not ready, defendants will

So we're going to begin the defense case.

I do not believe so, Judge.

matters that we need to raise.

Is there any reason why we can't proceed in his

That is correct, Mr. Masterson.

Pursuant to prior discussions, and based on the

Melendres v. Arpaio, 11/10/15 Evidentiary Hearing